Editor Of Vogue (Edward Enninful OBE): How To Become No.1 In Your Industry Against All The Odds!

1. 0:00 – 2:01

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      It feels like you've lived an impossible life.

   2. EEEdward Enninful0:03

      But with it, came all the... (instrumental music plays) I just needed to be able to look at myself and not hate myself.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:11

      Edward Enngull.

   4. EEEdward Enninful0:13

      The first Black man to become editor-in-chief of British Vogue. One of the fashion industry's biggest names. He's single-handedly changing the face of fashion.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:21

      In your book, you talk about understanding that you were gay from a very young age. Had your father known, he would've slit your throat.

   6. EEEdward Enninful0:27

      I grew up petrified of him. Each day, I was being told, "You're going to be a lawyer or a doctor." I knew that wasn't gonna happen. At the age of 13, I came from another country. 16, I was modeling, 18, I was an editor. It was quite fast. Work was everything for me. There was this notion that women of color on covers don't sell. I knew I would need to do something about it. I didn't just create a magazine that looked good, but is so financially successful. I was just so consumed with work and work was where I felt like an imposter, really. I mean, I never look at anything I've done and think, "This is amazing." I wouldn't sleep, that leads you to drinking and that leads you to drugs. You always have to fight.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:07

      But that fight comes at a cost.

   8. EEEdward Enninful1:09

      I woke up one day and I saw these black markings in my vision. I was so scared. I knew after that, that I had to change my life.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:18

      You sit here as one of the most successful people in your industry. What would 51-year-old Edward say to 18-year-old Edward?

   10. EEEdward Enninful1:25

       The one regret I do have is... (music stops)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:30

       Before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask from you. Two months ago, 74% of people that watch this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%, so if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you and enjoy this episode. (instrumental music plays)

2. 2:01 – 15:12

   What shaped you?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:01

      Edward, it feels like you've lived and traveled an impossible life. You sit here as one of the most successful people in your industry, but when I read about your earliest context, that's why I use the word impossible. Can you give me the information I need to know to understand how the man that sits in front of me today got here? And I'm referring to that early information, the context that molded you into the man you are today.

   2. EEEdward Enninful2:36

      Thank you for having me. Um, so as you read in the book, I grew, I was born in a city called Takoradi in Ghana, West Africa. My dad was in the army, he was a major, um, my mother was a seamstress, and we lived on a military base in the town. So already there was... That was a weird, um, way of growing up where you are in the town, but you're not in the town, you're on a military base with its own sets of rules and, and traditions. So, that's where I was. And, um, my mother was a seamstress, and I grew up in love with clothes, in love with my mother and in love with clothes, and I was always with her, uh, you know, when her customers came in. And my mother had, was one of those rare women who had their own business. You know, in the '70s in Africa, she had an atelier with about 40 women. So I would spend days just really helping her fit women into clothes and, you know, little African boy standing around the corner listening to the gossip, being shooed away. But I always say that's when I developed my love for women, all women, because the, you know, my mother's friends, my aunts, uh, were all bodacious women of different sizes. Big women, if you, you know, if you want to put it that way, but they were just beautiful and vivacious and alive. So really, that was, that was how, um, I grew up in Ghana. I mean, you know, I was always a sickly child, so I would always be with my mother a lot. And I really learnt about sort of women and what really makes them tick. You know, I always say I can tell when a woman is happy in a dress by the flick of her wrist or a little wince of the, of the nose. And, um, so my mother was a really great influence. I didn't know anything about fashion, but I had an aunt who had a salon called Dolly Dots, and she was a hairdresser, and that was like paradise for me. And it was there that I discovered magazines. There was a magazine called Ebony, which is an American magazine that you'd get every month. Another one called Jet and another one called Time. And I would literally devour those pages. And yeah, I was, I was really happy. It was a really happy childhood. And then we had to move to London because there was a military coup and my dad, from one day to the next, had to leave. So, that was the next chapter mainly.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett5:14

      You were the fifth of six, six children. And the, the figure in that equation that wasn't mentioned is your father. In your book, you talk a lot about the fear you had of your father growing up. Can you tell me how that shaped you as a young man?

   4. EEEdward Enninful5:29

      Mm-hmm. I mean, my father was a military man. He was in the Peace Corps from Ghana, so they spent ages sort of, you know, procuring peace in like places like Liberia and, um, the Middle East. And he was there, then he wasn't, but we were petrified of him. Um, when he was around, you wouldn't play outside. You know, he expected us all to be home studying. And he was very authoritarian, very African, very strict.So, yes, I was always very scared. And, you know, I was sort of the creative child, always drawing illustrations and drawing women all the time. And I'd... And I'll hear, you know, "Your dad's coming," and I would just rip them up because I was literally in fear of him. And, um, my dad had this thing when (laughs) ... We, we laugh about it now, but when he got angry, it wasn't just with... It would start with one, and then the anger would descend to, to me essentially, number five. Because my sister wasn't born then. And, um, yeah, he was very terrifying to me in all aspects. But then my mother was just the most creative, most, you know, incredibly warm mother who would literally sort of... You know, "Here's the paper, here's the pen." You know, "Come in the room. There's this lady, sew, sew her into the dress, zip her up." So I... It was very weird having my dad, who was not artistic in any way, but so disciplined, you know, and my mother who was just a creative. And it's really funny because now I am literally both. I am so disciplined in my work. So disciplined. There on time, and then also so creative on the other hand. So I got something from both. But yes, in those early years, my dad was a source of terror to me.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett7:26

      What impact did that have on you? When you look back now in hindsight, I, look, I do this sometimes with my parents. I look back and go, "For better or for worse, this parent shaped me accidentally for..." You know, in this way, it might have created, um... I had a guest on this podcast called Tim Grover, who-

   6. EEEdward Enninful7:43

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett7:44

      ... trained Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. And he says, "At that young age, we developed both our bright side and our dark side."

   8. EEEdward Enninful7:51

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett7:52

      And sometimes the same incident can give us both of our... It can give us our brilliance, and it c- it can also give us our... You know, things we struggle with the most. What dark side did you inherit from that early upbringing?

   10. EEEdward Enninful8:03

       I mean, I think what I inherited from that, that period was just this, this fear, overriding fear, that never leaves you. A sense that I was never good enough. A sense that I had to hide any form of brilliance, because looking at those early drawings that I did, they're not far removed from what I do now. But it was just like, "Don't show how brilliant you are. Don't show how good you are. Hide it, hide it."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett8:33

       Were you burning the drawings? I heard you-

   12. EEEdward Enninful8:36

       Ripping them up, burning, whatever I had to do so-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett8:38

       So your dad wouldn't see them.

   14. EEEdward Enninful8:38

       ... there'd be no trace of it. (laughs)

   15. SBSteven Bartlett8:40

       It's, it's... I can't fathom that.

   16. EEEdward Enninful8:42

       Yeah. But can you... As a, as a creative child, can you imagine? That's your calling, but you don't even know at that age that this is what you're meant to do. But you just know... It just felt like something that was wrong. So I spent a lot of years just really loving what I do, you know, loving the fashion industry, but at the same time thinking there's something wrong with that, because while all this was going on, I was being sort of... Each day I was being told, "You're going to be a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer." So to me, those were the great careers that you, you needed. Those were the great careers for an African child. For an African parent, that was it. A doctor, a lawyer, or an engineer. So I always felt, sometimes even in the fashion industry when I was younger, that "I'm not really doing what I'm supposed to be doing." You know, "If I was a doctor, my dad would be so proud." And, you know, I carried that with me for years until, you know, I had to deal with it. Yeah. The parents, our parents shape us without really realizing. You know, someone said, "There's no real book to being a parent." So, you know, they learn as they're going along. And my dad, you know, he was a young man, and yeah, in the later years things got better maybe.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett10:04

       So you end up moving to the UK sort of around 13 years old roughly.

   18. EEEdward Enninful10:08

       Mm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett10:10

       Um, when you come here, you experience racism for the first time. It's, it's, it's an interesting thing to experience that racism at like your teen years, 'cause you don't even understand the concept of racism-

   20. EEEdward Enninful10:21

       Yes.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett10:21

       ... and tell me about that.

   22. EEEdward Enninful10:22

       Yeah. I mean, you know, um, as I said before, I grew up in Ghana, you know, my early years, where everything is possible. The doctors are Black, the president's Black, the lawyers Black, everybody's Black, every profession. And then one day we were on a plane to England, me and my siblings, because my dad had gone ahead and my mother had to stay behind. We arrive at Gatwick Airport and were detained because we didn't really have the right papers. You know, before Margaret Thatcher laid the law down, you could come to England from any Commonwealth country without a visa. But we didn't realize she stopped just sort of a month before. So we came anyway, we were detained, and I remember looking around the room and saying, saying to my brothers, "Oh my God, everyone's white." And it was the strangest thing I'd ever seen because in Ghana everyone's Black. And I remember, you know, we'd, we'd decamped to Vauxhall to my aunt's flat, and this was, you know, the year of, you know, Margaret Thatcher's reign, and the sus laws, and the Brixton Riots. And, you know, be... I remember the first time I was stopped on the street by the police with my brothers 'cause, you know, teenage Black kids, they assume you're up to no good. Um, we had to go to school in Vauxhall, Lilian Baylis School, over the bridge. And it was just scary leaving the house. And my father was so traumatized by this country. You know, there was a military man who'd, you know, ran a battalion, now couldn't work. You know, had to seek asylum. And we were the lowest of the low at the point. Even at school, I would remember people would call- use words like, "Oh my God, they're the boo-boos." Which means, was the word they used for someone from Africa. So not only was it tough... I went to an all-Black school.... thank God. I think my dad knew that the country was so different from anything we knew, that he put me in an all-Black school. And to this day, I'm so grateful for that. 'Cause my work later, everyone talks about, "How can you portray Black people so beautifully?" And I'm like, "That's all I know." Right? But those early years were tough. They were tough. Just a new country, a n- new school. And you felt a sense of not being liked as a Black person, you know? So those years were tough.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett12:47

       And, and what impact has that had on y- you and your work? 'Cause y- I th- think about from a professional standpoint, you were hiding and had some sort of shame and insecurity around-

   24. EEEdward Enninful12:56

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett12:56

       ... your creative expression back in Ghana. You come here now, and the world once again says, "You don't belong here."

   26. EEEdward Enninful13:02

       Yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett13:03

       You know? That, that, that feels... And then I even think about y- y- in your book, you talk about understanding that you were gay from a very young age.

   28. EEEdward Enninful13:09

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett13:10

       That's a, a third point of, you know-

   30. EEEdward Enninful13:12

       (laughs)
3. 15:12 – 21:16

   Moving to the UK & experience racism and homophobia

   1. SBSteven Bartlett15:12

      me to be a model, by the way.

   2. EEEdward Enninful15:12

      They should've.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett15:13

      I'm still waiting. (laughs) I know, I know. You're very kind. I'm still waiting, but we'll see. (laughs)

   4. EEEdward Enninful15:17

      (laughs) No, they should've.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett15:17

      You're 16 years old, right, when they... Some, um, a guy called Simon?

   6. EEEdward Enninful15:20

      Simon Foxton, yeah. I mean, so I was, I guess, 16. I left Vauxhall Lilian Bailey School. I wanted to go to Kingsway Princeton College. And I remember saying to my mom, "Oh my God, I don't wanna wear glasses anymore," 'cause I had these huge, (laughs) thick lenses my whole life. And I read, I was always, like, reading, and I discovered there was something called contact lenses. So I said, "Mom, can I get a pair?" You know, we didn't have money, but she somehow... I went to the optician, and somehow, because my, you know, my vision is so bad, it's always been sort of in the, the high 10, -9, -10, they gave me contact lenses. The really hard ones-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett16:03

      Mm-hmm.

   8. EEEdward Enninful16:04

      ... I don't know if anybody remembers. And I, yeah, a week later, I was on a train, you know, going to ham- from Hammersmith to college, and I was stopped by a gentleman who was, turned out to be one of the biggest fashion editors in the country, to be a model, and I didn't even know what modeling was. And I remember, you know, going home and telling my mother, and she's like, "No way are you going into that industry with those people." I didn't even know what "those people" meant. But I think years later, I think she meant gay people. (laughs) And, of course, I found out later Simon was gay, and the whole industry was gay by the time it's like... But, you know, I wore her down. I wore her down. I wore her down. Eventually she called, um, Simon and I went on my first photo shoot. And then again, I was stopped by model agents, then I got an agent, and sort of my love for the industry really begun from there.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett17:00

      What about your dad? Did he know you were...

   10. EEEdward Enninful17:03

       I was hiding it. My mother and I were hiding it. My mother was so good. Like, I remember the first job sh- she'd go with me, you know, to castings and on my shoots sometimes, 'cause I was 16. You know, I was a baby. And then she really trusted Simon Foxton. So then, you know, Simon would look after me, and we kept it all from my dad. I had a sister who was again stopped in Canada by a famous model agent, John Casablancas, to be a model, and my dad was like, "No way are you're not doing this." So somehow in the back of my head, he wasn't gonna stop me. Right? So, yeah, I was pretending to go to school when I was going to castings. I was pretending to go to school when I was going to shoots. So it's very cloak and dagger. But my mother and I, it was fun.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett17:49

       That was your, I guess, your introduction to that, that world, right-

   12. EEEdward Enninful17:52

       Yes.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett17:52

       ... fashion, modeling?

   14. EEEdward Enninful17:55

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett17:56

       Pivotal.

   16. EEEdward Enninful17:57

       I mean, I remember the first day I walked onto photo shoot, I think it was the Pepe Jeans, let's talk about it. And I looked around the room and I saw photography, I saw lights, I saw, you know, styling. I saw just a world where everybody seemed so happy, so collaborative. And in that moment, I knew...... that I wanted to be in this world, in that, the second I walked in. And I also knew that it wouldn't be as a model in front of the camera, that I would be something else. I didn't, I didn't know anything about the industry. Also, don't forget, when our parents came over from, you know, the Commonwealth, they didn't know what media was. You know, if you said to my dad, "I'm going to be a journalist." He'd be like, "What?" You know, there were the practical jobs that we talked about. So I don't really blame my dad now that I'm older. He just wanted me to have something that was secure. But try telling a 16 or 17-year-old who's discovered a world where they th- they belong to turn back, to be a lawyer. I knew that wasn't gonna happen.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett19:07

       But off you went anyway to university.

   18. EEEdward Enninful19:09

       (laughs) I did for him, for my dad. But the brilliant thing about going to university was, I was doing all these things and I was, you know, I was establishing myself as a model. I had pictures in magazines and I worked on shows. And I thought, "Oh, you know, I could do this side-by-side." It wasn't until I got to go to this university, and I remember I went for three months, and one of my lecturers literally was like, "Oh, so what do you do outside of here?" And I explained what I'd been doing. I'd also been working with a magazine called i-D, as, you know, sort of interning. I mean, I was like so in love with this world. I was at (laughs) I was at college, I was modeling, I was... Whatever I could do. And I remember the teacher saying to me, you know, "What you're doing now is what most of our students want, would like to do when they leave. So, yeah, just follow it." And I never went back. After three months in-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett20:04

       You dropped out. Three months in, you dropped out.

   20. EEEdward Enninful20:05

       Dropped out. But then when I dropped out, I was also offered a job as fashion director for i-D Magazine when I was 18.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett20:13

       Did you tell your dad you dropped out?

   22. EEEdward Enninful20:15

       (laughs)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett20:15

       I remember telling my mum I was dropping out of university and I didn't speak to her for two years, so... (laughs)

   24. EEEdward Enninful20:20

       (laughs)

   25. SBSteven Bartlett20:20

       Didn't speak... Yeah.

   26. EEEdward Enninful20:21

       I reme- I remember, you know, one day coming home and my dad was like, "How's university?" And something just said, "You know, you ha- you can't lie, you can't lie to him anymore." So I said, "Do you know what, Dad? I've been working, you know, as a model. I've been working at i-D Magazine. I haven't really been going to university." And he was furious. He threw my things out the window, my clothes out the window. And I remember picking them up and thinking, "I am never coming back here." And funny enough, that's one of, that's what (laughs) propels me, 'cause sometimes I have dreams where I've gone back home (laughs) because things didn't work out. So I said... A, I, I remember saying to myself, "I am never coming back to this house with my tail between my legs. I'm never coming back." And, um, the same day I went into i-D Magazine and the fashion director, Beth Summers, was leaving and she said, "You're taking over."

4. 21:16 – 26:37

   Being scouted & start of my fashion career

   1. EEEdward Enninful21:16

   2. SBSteven Bartlett21:16

      He throws all of your stuff... There's so much, so much to unpack there.

   3. EEEdward Enninful21:20

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett21:20

      He, he kicks you out the family home.

   5. EEEdward Enninful21:22

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett21:23

      And you, in your head you go, "Now I have no plan B."

   7. EEEdward Enninful21:26

      No plan B.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett21:26

      "It's plan A or plan A."

   9. EEEdward Enninful21:28

      Nothing. Nothing.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett21:30

       Sounds great, but that also sounds like-

   11. EEEdward Enninful21:32

       I was terrified.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett21:34

       Y- And fear as a driving force-

   13. EEEdward Enninful21:36

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett21:36

       ... can be a little bit unhealthy, right?

   15. EEEdward Enninful21:38

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett21:38

       This, this sort of fear of going back.

   17. EEEdward Enninful21:41

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett21:41

       I can relate to that as well-

   19. EEEdward Enninful21:42

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett21:42

       ... 'cause s- similar situation. Call my mum, dropping out university. She goes, "Don't talk to me or the family until you go back."

   21. EEEdward Enninful21:47

       Oh my God.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett21:47

       So I have two years of no plan B. I, it, I, it's forward. And that's, that's wonderful-

   23. EEEdward Enninful21:53

       Perpetual, perpetual motion. (laughs)

   24. SBSteven Bartlett21:54

       ... yeah, for achieving great things, but also it can cause, in my case, severe workaholism-

   25. EEEdward Enninful22:01

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett22:01

       ... because you're driven by fear.

   27. EEEdward Enninful22:02

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett22:02

       Are you driven or are you dragged?

   29. EEEdward Enninful22:04

       Driven (laughs) and dragged.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett22:06

       (laughs)
5. 26:37 – 32:54

   Work was my salvation

   1. SBSteven Bartlett26:37

      agree because, uh, m- most people don't open up their home to someone. They don't give them money when they need it. They don't bring them in just because they are 18 and young.

   2. EEEdward Enninful26:48

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett26:49

      So if you were to tell me how you created that luck, why people were- were pulling you up, why they were giving you the job as fashion director at 18 years old, why they were letting you in their home, why was that?

   4. EEEdward Enninful27:01

      I mean, I always thought it was luck. I always thought I was in the right place at the right time, I'd met the right people. But I learned later on, of course, that I must have had something in the raw. I must have had some, uh, a raw talent. I must have had some kind of a raw vision, something that people wanted to help hone because had I not had these people, I don't- I would never have known how to research a great shoot or how to write a great, you know, how to write a great story. I had peop- I- I- I think they must have- I must have (laughs) been so sort of wide-eyed and innocent that everybody wanted to help me. Everybody wanted to help me win. But I also know that you do that with people, for me now, I do that with people I see have a certain talent, a certain raw talent. So I think now it's not down to luck. You know, luck, you know, luck will get you through the door but something has to sustain you. But in those early days, I was so grateful, you know, for all these people who thought I had something special and ... But mind you, even working at ID when I was so young, (laughs) I mean, I didn't have an assistant so I would literally work on the cover shoots, style it, find a photographer, I would write all the shopping pages, I would work on layouts, I would shoot fashion stories, I would write designer interviews. Bo- I was like a one-man army. And I didn't realize that I was soaking in- I was soaking in an industry. I was soaking in really, I mean, ev- you know, everything I do in my job now comes from those days. But there I was in sort of a magazine for young people, by young people, and I was learning my craft, and it was exciting every day. I- I didn't want to go to ... I didn't want to sleep. (laughs) I didn't want to sleep but I was definitely a workaholic. You know, work meant everything to me. And if something went wrong in work, I- I would just collapse and not know how to handle it. Does that make sense?

   5. SBSteven Bartlett29:11

      Because it was so closely linked to your i- sense of self and identity.

   6. EEEdward Enninful29:14

      Yes, to a sense of self, yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett29:15

      That again can be unhealthy, right?

   8. EEEdward Enninful29:17

      Pardon? Oh my God, I talk about im- impostor syndr- syndrome. Uh, I ... And then y- and then your mind is saying to you, "You're not meant to be here. You're this little African boy. Who do you think you are? And you're trying to work." I mean, and I know a lot of young people, you know, I speak to a lot of young people today and wh- and when they hear that I suffer from impostor syndrome, they can't believe it. I'm like, "That's just part of life." It never goes away, you learn where to put it. Like, I know that I've done this long enough to know that, you know, what I do is okay on a good day. But yes, it- it was quite difficult those early days so- so that leads you to drinking and that leads you to going out just to numb your insecurities and your fears.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett30:04

      Do you think you could've gotten here without your impostor syndrome? If you didn't feel like a quote-unquote "impostor," would you be sat here now?

   10. EEEdward Enninful30:10

       No way. I always say had I not had my impostor syndrome, had I not had the need to be better, I mean, I never look at anything I've done and s- think, "This is amazing." I'm always, no, I'm like, "How can I do better?"... how can I make this better? How can I make this issue better? How can I make this better? And that's really what's driven me all these years. Even when an issue comes out of British Vogue, I don't look at it till two months later, because I will literally see all the mistakes. And, and that's something I learned from, from back then. So my insecurities really, that, that's what drove me. That's what kept driving me. Not the successes, it's the fact that think this wasn't good enough, or that wasn't good enough, or this could be better. But I got to a point where I went, okay, you can, you can let that go for now, and yeah, see things from a different angle. But yeah, my imposter syndrome definitely propelled me.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett31:11

       If you're, if you have that, where you're looking at your work and you always are self-critical of it, ha- and you're always thinking about how you could have done it better-

   12. EEEdward Enninful31:18

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett31:18

       ... how are you happy in the moment? Because that sounds like you're kind of deferring your enough-ness, the feeling that I am enough, and it's good enough, and everything's fine, off into the future behind the next goal. So how'd you become, at that stage in your life, how are you, are you happy in the moment?

   14. EEEdward Enninful31:33

       I mean, you know, everyone says, "Why this sense of insecurity?" What you have to remember is, I was in an incredible home and I lost it. An incredible country, lost it. An incredible family, lost it. Went into a gay scene that was so, uh, was so different to what I expected. So lost that. So for me, it's, there's always a sense of loss that I had to overcome. Does that make sense?

   15. SBSteven Bartlett32:06

       Per- makes perfect sense.

   16. EEEdward Enninful32:08

       You know, I had to belong somewhere. I never felt I really belonged anywhere. And that really was the factor. Sitting here, 50 years old, you know, I've been able to deal with my, my, (laughs) my demons, you know, through, yeah, through work, through therapy, whatever you want to call it. So I'm a different person now, but I'm still that same, I still have those feelings of, of, yeah, you just have to make it as best as it can be. But now not detrimental to my health-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett32:41

       Mm-hmm.

   18. EEEdward Enninful32:42

       ... not detrimental to my mental health. But as a young person, you don't think of that. You just, you just have to move forward and you have to be the best you can be, whatever that is.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett32:53

       You have to

6. 32:54 – 44:53

   Imposter syndrome propelled my career

   1. SBSteven Bartlett32:54

      move forward. You start that treadmill at 18 years old, which is much earlier than a lot of people start it as fashion director of this magazine, you start moving forward.

   2. EEEdward Enninful33:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett33:00

      You work. You, you don't sleep. You give everything to, to it. And at some point, and it tends to be the case when I speak to these incredible people, that there's a moment where you go, "Fuck, where am I? How did I get here? And I need to, I need to change something." Was there a moment in your life where you realized that you, you know, all this running was maybe just a little too much running and you had to stop for a second and-

   4. EEEdward Enninful33:23

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett33:23

      ... take a moment?

   6. EEEdward Enninful33:24

      Yeah, I remember sort of around 2002. I mean, I'd been in the industry for so long. I was creating fashion shows for the best designers in the world. I was flying every day or every few days to a different country, you know, living the life as they call it. But I was always, I was also the most miserable I'd ever been. I would be in a room surrounded by lots of people and feel really lonely. There was a sense of loneliness that was sort of creeping into my life every day. And there's this saying that you can be in a room surrounded by thousands of people and be lonely. But that kept getting stronger and stronger. So I started drinking a lot and I started, um, sort of going out a lot, you know, recreational drugs. And one day I was supposed to go to Italy to work on a show, um, a big show for designers called Dolce & Gabbana, and I had a party, and I lost my passport. And I was supposed to be there on day one. And by the time I got my passport back, it was day four. I literally went to the American, uh, to the British Embassy to get my passport with a bottle of vodka in my hands.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett34:41

      You're joking.

   8. EEEdward Enninful34:41

      Yes. Which I put through the (laughs) security thinking there was nothing wrong.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett34:46

      (laughs)

   10. EEEdward Enninful34:47

       But I remember getting to Milan and literally breaking down and calling a friend and said, "I think I'm done. I think I'm done with, with drinking. I think I'm done." And, um, I became sober for the next 14 years or so. I knew my life had to change. I moved from London to New York to be away from everyone, and that's what I did. But my career was totally unaffected. The, people who have addictions can be functioning. So my career was at the top, you know, at the time. And I could have just carried on, but I just knew that life had to change. I just knew I had to develop some kind of spirituality. I just, I just needed to be able to look at myself and not, you know, hate myself.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett35:38

       Hate myself?

   12. EEEdward Enninful35:39

       Yeah, hate myself. Um, you know, work was always great, but like I said, behind the curtains, the, the insecurities, the loneliness that a lot of people, a lot of high achievers feel, you know, when you don't have a partner, when you don't have a family to go back to, you're literally a, a lone wolf with a lot of friends.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett36:01

       Everything in life has a cost. And the cost of being dragged or driven by success is often something has to fall by the wayside.

   14. EEEdward Enninful36:09

       Yes.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett36:09

       And for so many successful people, that is social connections, it is all these other things that make life, quote unquote, balanced. Um, because, you know, in the moment, those things seem disposable-

   16. EEEdward Enninful36:20

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett36:20

       ... when you're so focused and driven and, and, you know, running away from where you've come from or getting to where you're going. Um, and it seems like such a recurring theme that I experience. What were the symptoms? You s- you said the word creeping, creeping...... feelings of, like, loneliness-

   18. EEEdward Enninful36:34

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett36:35

       ... or D- or whatever it- you know, depression, whatever it was. What were the, the signals, the signs of that? Like, th- that's what I really wanna get to, because there'll be someone listening to this now-

   20. EEEdward Enninful36:45

       Yes.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett36:46

       ... that it might just be creeping, like a frog in a frying pan slowly heating up.

   22. EEEdward Enninful36:50

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett36:50

       What were those signals or signs in your life?

   24. EEEdward Enninful36:52

       Yeah, the signals were like, you know, not, not really sleeping-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett36:57

       Yeah.

   26. EEEdward Enninful36:57

       ... not really, never engaging with people on a one-to-one, always being better with, with crowds of people around. Avoidance, you know? Avoidance, that's in situations, and people who are, quote unquote, "good for you." Um, avoiding people who you really loved before and who were really kind to you. All of a sudden, avoiding them for a new group of shiny people. Um-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett37:29

       What about

   28. NANarrator37:29

       Me?

   29. EEEdward Enninful37:29

       ... nights spent watching, you know, endless amounts of TV, but then realizing for the past six hours, you can't, you, you can't even remember what you've been watching. (laughs) Does that make sense?

   30. SBSteven Bartlett37:42

       Yes. (laughs)
7. 44:53 – 48:29

   Loyalty at work

   1. SBSteven Bartlett44:53

      You stayed at i-D as fashion director for a long time.

   2. EEEdward Enninful44:56

      (laughs) 20-something years.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett44:58

      20-something years.

   4. EEEdward Enninful44:59

      (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett44:59

      Most young people, especially these days-

   6. EEEdward Enninful45:01

      (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett45:01

      ... wouldn't stay in any job two years.

   8. EEEdward Enninful45:03

      No, they're out. (laughs)

   9. SBSteven Bartlett45:03

      Staying for two years.

   10. EEEdward Enninful45:04

       Oh, no, after six months, they're coming to me to say, "What is my prospect?" I'm like, "I don't even know you."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett45:10

       (laughs)

   12. EEEdward Enninful45:10

       (laughs)

   13. SBSteven Bartlett45:11

       Tha- tha- that's, I, when I read that, I was like, "Is that correct?" Like, you stayed in one job-

   14. EEEdward Enninful45:15

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett45:15

       ... the, the job you had at 18 for 20-something years.

   16. EEEdward Enninful45:19

       Yeah. But I mean, not 20 years as a f- I mean, 20 years, but I was also freelance and still-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett45:23

       Mm-hmm. Doing the job, yeah.

   18. EEEdward Enninful45:24

       Yeah. Doing the job. But i-D is such a special magazine. You know, it became like the coolest magazine in the world. Every model, every actor, everybody wanted to be a part of it. So there was no need for me to leave. And I'm also, I'm also very loyal, you know, loyalty is so important. So everywhere I go takes me (laughs) and I never leave.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett45:45

       There's something to be said for that, though. It's rare-

   20. EEEdward Enninful45:47

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett45:47

       ... in the modern world, that loyalty to a profession or a craft.

   22. EEEdward Enninful45:49

       Yeah, and if someone is loyal to you, I believe in sort of being loyal back, you know? If someone nurtures you, you know, then you wanna be there. Like I said, it, it replaces, um, the family dynamic, which I didn't have from that age.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett46:04

       Do you think that's part of it? The why, why you've been so loyal is because you're searching for somewhere to belong?

   24. EEEdward Enninful46:08

       Oh, I know that.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett46:09

       Oh, for-

   26. EEEdward Enninful46:10

       Because even when I was at i-D, um, my friends would... (laughs) I was never alone at my desk. Each day, you know, every day you'd come in, there'll be the, the hottest actor, singer, dancer of the moment round my table. The next day will be a, a writer. It was like, "Yeah, come in. Come and hang out. Let's go hang out for the day with Edward."

   27. SBSteven Bartlett46:29

       And what was-

   28. EEEdward Enninful46:29

       That was what i-D was. (laughs)

   29. SBSteven Bartlett46:31

       And what was that making you feel when there were people around you, and from an emotional standpoint? H-

   30. EEEdward Enninful46:37

       I mean, I've, I'm, I'm great with people. I love being around people, and I always say, you know, I have a, I have a husband who is s- sort of very, wants to be on his own.
8. 48:29 – 55:42

   Becoming Vogue's Editor-in-chief & making a change

   1. EEEdward Enninful48:29

      a call from Jonathan Newhouse, um, a very great... He was, you know, he owns Condé Nast, the company that owns Vogue, and he said, um-... the editor who was there, had been there for 26 years. Was, you know, fashion industry, nobody leaves any job. (laughs)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett48:48

      Clearly. (laughs)

   3. EEEdward Enninful48:50

      ... was leaving and would I come in for an interview? So I came in for a couple of interviews. Um, I didn't think I was going to get it, because to be honest, I thought Vogue wasn't meant for people like me. You know, I thought Vogue was meant for, you know, women from a certain background. And, and I was, you know, the boy from Ladbroke Grove, you know. I was gay, I was outspoken, you know, I was good at my job. But, um, yeah. I went for an interview and I literally told them, you know, how to... How I would do Vogue for, for 2017.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett49:22

      And what was that message?

   5. EEEdward Enninful49:23

      To make it inclusive, to make it diverse. You know, there was this notion in the fashion industry that Black women or women of color on covers don't sell. It's been in the industry for as long as I can remember. But I saw all these affluent women, you know. Not just Black women, you know, gay women, women from, you know, with working class backgrounds. You know, Muslim women, all these British, who are, who are British essentially, not seeing themselves reflected in the magazine. I thought, "Well, not only is it bad b- you know, it's not good business." But I wanted to create a place or a safe place where women could just feel welcomed. 'Cause I always remember my mother always said to me, "If you can see it, you can be it." So I wanted to create, um, a magazine where, you know, women of all shapes, sizes, you know, race, age, socioeconomic background could see themselves reflected. And that's all I did. I didn't reinvent the whe- (laughs) the wheel. I just thought, "Who other women out there that I wanted to reach?" And that's what I did. And thank God the world was... I mean, now diversity is a buzzword, right? But in 2017, nobody was, wanted, wanted that on a magazine. And I always said, you know, I knew I'd probably be fired three months in. But I also learned, and this is what I got from my father, I would rather be fired for something I believed in than to go in half-halfing it and get fired anyway. Half-assing it, I should say.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett50:59

      Facts.

   7. EEEdward Enninful50:59

      So yeah, that's how Vogue happened and the world was ready.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett51:03

      When you got that call saying that you were gonna take that top job at Vogue, how did you feel?

   9. EEEdward Enninful51:10

      I felt scared.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett51:10

       Give me the full-

   11. EEEdward Enninful51:11

       I felt scared on one hand because I knew the type of person I am that I, that I wouldn't... Like I said, I wouldn't just go in and try to make do. I would need to change everything. I also knew that Vogue had such a hu- I mean, Vogue's the best magazine in the world and has such a huge sort of history that I wanted to sort of be a part of it, but make it about today. And I didn't know if the readers would be ready. I mean, before I started the job, you know, there were speculations in the newspaper. I mean, I got called all kinds of African. I got called, I got called everything. (laughs) I got called a Black-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett51:53

       I heard the, um-

   13. EEEdward Enninful51:53

       What was it?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett51:54

       I heard the, uh, the, the quote.

   15. EEEdward Enninful51:55

       The Black sh- (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett51:56

       They said it was like going to Crufts with a cat.

   17. EEEdward Enninful51:58

       Cut. Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett51:58

       And the cat winning.

   19. EEEdward Enninful51:59

       And the cat won. Like a whole other breed. So already I had that on my shoulders. It was really... It was a really tough time. But I didn't speak. I just thought, "Let me just bring out the magazine." And when the first issue dropped December 2017 with Adjoa on the cover, an issue that was dedicated to Great Britain, the country that gave me a c- a home, the country that I loved, and featured all the best, you know, um, Zadie Smith and Naomi Campbell, um, Sadiq Khan. This is the best of Britain. The world got it straight away. And from that minute, the, the, the magazine just went up, up, up, up, up and we haven't looked back.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett52:42

       But even... I, I read a... So I read about that story of the newspaper when you got the job as... The, the top job at Vogue. They said it was like Crufts, but the cat winning.

   21. EEEdward Enninful52:52

       Yes.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett52:52

       Racism. And then I also recall a, a story you tell about arriving at Vogue one day-

   23. EEEdward Enninful52:57

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett52:57

       ... and a security lady not letting you in.

   25. EEEdward Enninful53:00

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett53:00

       Because they thought you were the delivery man. (laughs)

   27. EEEdward Enninful53:03

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett53:04

       And at that point you were-

   29. EEEdward Enninful53:06

       Oh, I'd-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett53:06

       ... the editor.
9. 55:42 – 59:59

   The impact on my health

   1. EEEdward Enninful55:42

   2. SBSteven Bartlett55:42

      You fought, Edward, you fought for your entire life-

   3. EEEdward Enninful55:44

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett55:44

      ... you fought for yourself, you fought for others. You're, you're fighting for your people. Um, you're, you're doing that every day. It's so clear in all your work. I, I was reading also about the, The Black Issue you released-

   5. EEEdward Enninful55:53

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett55:54

      ... and how well that sold out, where you put all sort of Black models throughout this magazine-

   7. EEEdward Enninful55:58

      Definitely.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett55:58

      ... and, yeah. And that fight, again, it comes at a cost. Um, and one of the costs it came at was your health.

   9. EEEdward Enninful56:05

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett56:05

       I read about the health scare you had. Can you tell me about that? And the doctors linked that back to your lack of sleep and-

   11. EEEdward Enninful56:11

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett56:11

       ... it sounded like some kind of, sort of a culmination of-

   13. EEEdward Enninful56:14

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett56:14

       ... fighting a bit too hard, if that makes sense.

   15. EEEdward Enninful56:16

       Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I was, I was, even on my way here, I was in, in the car with my PR agent, he's like, "You're always fighting." (laughs) "You're always pushing forward." Yes, basically all those years of, um, just not sleeping, just working, overworking, traveling. I woke up one day and I saw these black markings in my, in my vision. And it turned out that I was, uh, I was having, um, a detached retina. So the det- the retina did detach, in fact, eventually, you know, one surgery. Then it detached again, and it detached four times in the same eye. And then as all that was happening, um, my other eye started, so they had to operate on that. So I've been having five operations. And, you know, I work with my eyes, so can you imagine what that did? So that was really harrowing, and then also I developed, um, tinnitus.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett57:15

       Oh, gosh.

   17. EEEdward Enninful57:15

       So the hearing.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett57:16

       I had that.

   19. EEEdward Enninful57:17

       Oh, it's the worst.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett57:18

       It's hard to explain.

   21. EEEdward Enninful57:19

       You can't explain.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett57:20

       You can't explain it. If I said to you, "Your, your ear's gonna ring," you go, "Okay." But when your ear rings nonstop-

   23. EEEdward Enninful57:25

       You think you're going crazy.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett57:26

       ... yeah, you go crazy.

   25. EEEdward Enninful57:27

       You think you're going crazy.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett57:28

       I had it for about 15 days and I can see, I, you know-

   27. EEEdward Enninful57:30

       Only 15 days?

   28. SBSteven Bartlett57:31

       Yeah.

   29. EEEdward Enninful57:32

       It went?

   30. SBSteven Bartlett57:33

       And I... It, it went, yeah.
10. 59:59 – 1:06:08

    Your mother's influence and her passing

    1. EEEdward Enninful59:59

    2. SBSteven Bartlett59:59

       I don't know if it was slightly after that, but, you know, we've talked about the incredible impact and inspiration from a very young age that your mother was to you.

    3. EEEdward Enninful1:00:06

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:07

       She was everything you've described, vivacious. She was an entrepreneur. She was the, the reason why fashion became such an important part of your life as a young man, drawing fashion designs under her work station at work and so on. And while she was away visiting Ghana, she had a stroke.

    5. EEEdward Enninful1:00:23

       Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:24

       And from there, her health deteriorated over the coming, over the next couple of years. In 2016, at 44 years old, your mother passed away.

    7. EEEdward Enninful1:00:33

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:34

       What impact did that have on your perspective and your life, the passing of your mother?

    9. EEEdward Enninful1:00:39

       Um, oh my God. I mean, I, my mother was somebody who wouldn't stop working. She was somebody who wouldn't sleep. I mean, (laughs) I get all that from her. She read. I mean, my mom, my mother didn't even cook.... because my sisters would cook. She was obsessed with beautiful clothes, make cr- bring in beauty in the world. But I also watched her, you know, she didn't eat so well. She wouldn't exercise. She'd just wake up and just work. So, I mean, that, w- you know, my mother was the love of my life, and it really made me stop to think. I mean, you know, strokes are not nothing to, you know, to be messed with. And it runs in my family, so that was already a sign to really look after myself. But losing my mother really left a void that, you know, will never be filled. But now I don't remember the, I don't... Y- a strange thing happens when you lose a parent. Now I don't remember her being ill. I just remember that viv- you know, that gorgeous creative woman who was so full of life. And my mother always taught me not to be scared of anything. And yeah, all the memories I have of her are so great, but she also helped me change my life, you know? Yeah. She was the love of my life.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:57

        In your words, what, what do you owe to her?

    11. EEEdward Enninful1:02:00

        I owe her everything. My God, I owe her the love, the love of fashion and color and people. The, the, the, the, the, the delving into your imagination, the creativity. Everything that's, I create that's beautiful. Everything, you know, the love I have of women of all shapes and sizes and ages and, you know, race. Everything, everything good. Everything good in, in, in my work, but also in my life. She was the kindest, most nurturing human being. And that's something I try to do with my staff. That's something I try to do in my everyday life, sort of, you know, they used to call me teacher when I was young. So I really like teaching a next generation and really nurturing them. So all that really came from my mother. And yeah, and yet also empathy. You know, being able to put yourself in someone's shoes. All that came from her.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:04

        When she, after her stroke, it was almost 15 years where you describe it as a sort of decline in her, in her health.

    13. EEEdward Enninful1:03:10

        Mm-Hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:11

        When she did pass away, was there any, any thoughts of sort of regrets about the... This is something I always wonder about-

    15. EEEdward Enninful1:03:19

        Yeah.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:19

        ... my parents, 'cause I've still got my parents, but I play out the scenario of how I'll feel one day when I've spent all this time working.

    17. EEEdward Enninful1:03:25

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:25

        And our relation- you kind of, I think I've gone through life thinking my parents will live forever, to be honest.

    19. EEEdward Enninful1:03:30

        Yeah. Everyone thinks their parents are gonna live forever. I say to my friends, "Please make sure you see your parents as much as you can, because when they're gone, they're gone." I still pick up the phone to call my mother and she's not there. But spend as much time as you can 'cause they're not here forever. You think they are. And the biggest regret I had is all those years I spent working and traveling and not seeing enough of her and not, you know, going back to, to visit. And I was just so consumed with work. You know, the one regret I do have is I wish I would've spent more time with her, but I thought she was going to be around forever. So yes, spend as much time as you can with your parents, you know, build whatever bridges you can build. I know some bridges are impossible, but if you can build bridges, do, you know, do because when they're gone, you will miss them.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:22

        Are there any, did she ever hear from you directly the impact that she had had on your life?

    21. EEEdward Enninful1:04:29

        I mean, you know, before she had the stroke, she saw how well I was doing and, you know, she would see, you know, different articles appear in different magazines and she knew that, you know, she was African, so she knew that I was financially secure, secure enough to give, you know, to look after the family. So for her, even though she didn't see me get to this level, she knew that, you know, I was able to buy a place when I was very young and I'm able to sort of look after them. And so she saw that and I think she was very proud of that.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:00

        She must have been very proud of you.

    23. EEEdward Enninful1:05:02

        I think she was. I hope she was anyway.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:05

        Incredible. You went to therapy, um, after she'd passed away.

    25. EEEdward Enninful1:05:09

        Mm-hmm.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:09

        What has therapy given you? What, what's the sort of the practical...?

    27. EEEdward Enninful1:05:12

        Mm-Hmm. The therapy really gives you the practical tools to cope with life. I, I mean, I've always had, I've always been very good with boundaries. Like it teaches you boundaries.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:22

        Mm-Hmm.

    29. EEEdward Enninful1:05:22

        I've always been very good, you know, when I was a teenager I was, I just wanted to do what everybody wanted. But then the older I got, I mean I was, I mean, I was so frosty at point times anyway. (laughs)

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:32

        It's hard to imagine.
11. 1:06:08 – 1:11:03

    Sweating the small stuff

    1. EEEdward Enninful1:06:08

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:08

       If I was your right, who's the closest person to you professionally?

    3. EEEdward Enninful1:06:12

       Professionally? Oh my God. Oh, um-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:15

       Who knows you best professionally?

    5. EEEdward Enninful1:06:18

       My sister.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:20

       Okay, so your sister, your younger sister, right?

    7. EEEdward Enninful1:06:21

       My sister who was also my agent for 15 years.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:24

       Well, if I asked her what, what you are good at, because you know, you've reached this position where you're the top of your game in what you do, from the most incredible start in life to, to here now. So we talked about your talent, but we didn't really figure out in terms of like the specifics of what that talent is in your, in your own words. If I was to ask your sister, I said, "What's Edward's talent? What is the thing that he's good at that the peers just can't quite do as well as he can?"

    9. EEEdward Enninful1:06:51

       You should ask her. I don't know. (laughs)

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:52

        Yeah, I should have asked her. What do you think she'd say?

    11. EEEdward Enninful1:06:56

        Um, I think she will probably say that I...... I'm in sort of perpetual forward motion, that I don't take no for an answer probably, and that I'll... Yeah, I'll do whatever I can to make, to make the best magazine or to make the best picture, or to make the best... Like, I'll, uh, uh, I'll go to the ends of the world to make things happen maybe.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:24

        Isn't it difficult for someone who doesn't have that same standard to work with someone like you then? Because if I, you know-

    13. EEEdward Enninful1:07:30

        No.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:30

        ... if I don't care as much about the detail as you do.

    15. EEEdward Enninful1:07:32

        Yeah. But I also think that, you know, it, it comes with time, doesn't it? You know, I think you can see diamonds in the raw. So I don't expect everybody to be like me, but I can also see potential. And then hopefully you can nurture that potential to its fullest. So I don't expect everybody to come in, you know... Sometimes the best, the best people you work with are the quiet ones in the back. The ones who are not good at, in, in interview situations, but the ones who know... who work and are workers. And I should probably say that I, I, I, I'm definitely a worker. Like, I work very hard.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:10

        Do standards matter to you?

    17. EEEdward Enninful1:08:12

        Very much so.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:14

        Do you sweat the small stuff?

    19. EEEdward Enninful1:08:15

        Yes.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:17

        Why does that matter?

    21. EEEdward Enninful1:08:18

        That... It's the, the, the devil's in the details. (laughs) You know, you, you have to, to create on a level that we create. You know, you can't just say, "Okay, everything's fine. Everything will work out."

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:31

        Can you work with people that are like that, that don't sweat the small stuff?

    23. EEEdward Enninful1:08:37

        So long as there are people there who can sweat the small stuff. Maybe s- other people's talents are something else. But there needs to be a balance. It can't just be everybody there is sweating the small stuff, but there also has to be sort of dreamers and creators, you, you know. Someone said to me once, "What do you look for when you employ staff?" And like I said, it's not the best interview. It's, "When you're walking towards my office, am I happy to see you?" Like, what are you bringing to the job? So someone comes into my office, they're, like, sweating the small stuff, and somebody can just walk in and go, "I have a big idea." And that's what I love about what we do.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:21

        Do you think you're successful?

    25. EEEdward Enninful1:09:24

        I'm successful at... I'm success- at my work, but I'm still a work in progress where life is concerned.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:34

        How?

    27. EEEdward Enninful1:09:36

        'Cause every day I learn something new about myself. I feel like I missed a lot of years growing up. You know, for years, I was always... I was always sort of jealous when I saw people who went to university together or, or when people were, you know, who went to university together, had all those escapades, and I was working. But now I realize that everybody has their own path. And mine was to... yeah, to go and be a worker.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:06

        Quick one. Some of you will know that this podcast is now sponsored by the incredible Airbnb. I'm a huge user, lover, and customer of Airbnb. Every time I go away on a trip, whether that's work-related or it's a holiday, Airbnb is always my go-to. But have you ever considered, have you ever thought about making some extra cash to cover some bills or to help pay off a holiday? Let me explain further. Perhaps people are coming to your town or city for a music festival, for an event or a holiday, and you have a spare room. Why not Airbnb it? Or your home office is free right now. You're working away from home during the week, you could Airbnb it. Honestly, the possibilities are endless. I've Airbnbed one of my apartments before, and it's a great way to make extra cash. I'd highly recommend you all to at least check it out. That extra space you have, that extra room, it might be worth more than you think. So to find out just how much it's worth, search airbnb.co.uk/host. That's airbnb.co.uk/host. Check it out.

12. 1:11:03 – 1:15:21

    Your recipe for happiness

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:03

       Sometimes I, I ask my friends this because this is the kind of weirdo that I am, but if happiness were an ingredients list, if it was a recipe that needed certain ingredients and certain quantities for the recipe to be complete, is there anything missing currently off your ingredients list that you think if you just had a little bit more of that, then maybe you'd be even more fulfilled, content, happy?

    2. EEEdward Enninful1:11:23

       No, it, it's... For me, it's more... it's more the opposite. I'm now like if I don't want to be in a place, whether it's dinner or in a job or in a situation, I'm out. That's what... (laughs) That's the ingredient that I have now, that I don't want to spend... any... Life is too short. I don't want to spend any time being in a place where I don't want to be. And that came with years and years of, you know, failures and successes or whatever you call it. Now I know where I need to be, who I want to be with. And that's, that's the ingredient that's been added.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:01

       I'm 30 now, right? So I've got-

    4. EEEdward Enninful1:12:03

       You're a baby.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:05

       (laughs) There's a 20... about a 20, 20-year gap between me and you. So-

    6. EEEdward Enninful1:12:08

       But you're so... My God, you're so great at what you're doing.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:10

       Oh, thank you. You've... Right? I mean, that means a lot coming from you. So thank you. What advice would you give me as a 30-year-old man right now? I'm... You know, I've got my... I've got another 20 years ahead of me. It's a different chapter of life. I love that piece of advice you said about boundaries and, like-

    8. EEEdward Enninful1:12:23

       Yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:23

       ... if I don't want to be there, let-

    10. EEEdward Enninful1:12:24

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:24

        ... let someone down-

    12. EEEdward Enninful1:12:25

        Yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:25

        ... get out of there. Is there anything else y- you think that as a 30-year-old man, um, would equip me to make the next chapter of my life as brilliant? I mean...

    14. EEEdward Enninful1:12:34

        Yeah. Don't say... Don't take no for an answer. Keep, keep doing what you do. There'll be naysayers along the way, people like, "Oh, you can do it like this. You can do it like that. This, this person's more s-" Don't listen to any of that. You've already set yourself on a great path, manifest it, keep moving forward. Yeah. But really don't be distracted by people telling you you can't do this or you can't do that or shouldn't do this. Once someone... (laughs) Again, one of the things my mother said to me is, "When you go into a place, an institution, and they say, you know, 'We do things like this,' or things..." You should say, "Why?"... always have that on your mind. Why? Why, why does it have to be like this? Why can't we change? The why is a very important one to have.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:18

        Amen. How has love changed your life, Edward? 20 years married now.

    16. EEEdward Enninful1:13:24

        I mean, love, I never thought I would have love. I always thought I'd be like a lot of those people who're sort of career-minded people, you know, where you get to the end of your life and you've achieved everything without a partner. And then I met, you know, Alek when we were in our 20s. I was in my late 20s. He was in his early 20s. And part of the reasons why I got so- part of the reason why I got sober. And he has taught me about just being a, and, and being a person, being, being human, you know, being grounded. He's so special. Really just, just the normal things in life. But he's also very creative, so he tells me when a cover's awful-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:13

        (laughs)

    18. EEEdward Enninful1:14:13

        ... and we fight. And I say to him, "How, what do you mean this is awful? Everybody loves this." And he goes, "Oh, they're telling you what you want to hear."

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:20

        (laughs)

    20. EEEdward Enninful1:14:20

        So he's my, my, you know, my, my home, you know, my safe space. And he's just very kind, you know. Taught me to be kinder.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:34

        Have you learnt to express to him what he means to you?

    22. EEEdward Enninful1:14:38

        I think he read the book. (laughs)

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:42

        (laughs)

    24. EEEdward Enninful1:14:42

        No, he knows, he knows what he means to me.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:44

        What does he mean to you?

    26. EEEdward Enninful1:14:45

        Without him, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't even, I probably wouldn't even wanna carry on, uh, doing what I do. But he's so excited. He's a director, so he's also so excited by work and our life. And you know, we have two puppies, so we have a great work/life balance.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:01

        You wouldn't wanna be here?

    28. EEEdward Enninful1:15:02

        No, I wouldn't wanna be here doing what I do. You know, I'll, I'll be like, "Oh, well, I'm gonna, I'm just quitting." Or there are those, you know, those days when you go home, like, "Oh, for those, uh, like, I can't be bothered to deal with that." And he's like, "Yes, you will. And you'll go back tomorrow." And you know, just he's really normal and so lovely.

13. 1:15:21 – 1:19:44

    Last guest question

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:21

       Edward, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest without, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And I get to see it when I open the book. Um, and the question that's been left for you by our previous guest, who I shan't name, is, if you could be part of any brand or company, past or present, which would it be and why?

    2. EEEdward Enninful1:15:43

       I mean, obviously I go back to the first magazine I ever saw was Ebony Magazine. There was a great woman called Eunice W. Johnson, and she was, she was the editor's wife. She was one of the few Black women who would go to fashion weeks, as we call it now. And you know that poor woman, they wouldn't lend her the clothes to shoot. She had to buy the couture with her money, with her own money, to do these fashion shows called Ebony Fashion Fair around the Deep South of America in the '50s and '60s. This woman was so incredible, Eunice W. Johnson, Ebony Magazine. I would've loved to have been her right hand. I would've loved to have gone to the shows with her and fought with her to get ... I mean, what I, what I have now, you know, access to everything, is because of women like her. So Ebony Magazine in the '40s and '50s next to Eunice W. Johnson would've been incredible.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:48

       Edward, thank you.

    4. EEEdward Enninful1:16:49

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:49

       Thank you for fighting, because by doing so, you're laying the foundation and opening doors, not just for people in the fashion industry, but for people in every industry that come from where you come from that look like you, including me. Because of role models like you in our society, you're opening doors for people like me that are coming through in different industries so that we are accepted, enabled, and our talents are put first and foremost beyond anything else that might be our skin color or our background or our creed. Your book is incredible. It's a, a very important book that I think is, um-

    6. EEEdward Enninful1:17:19

       Thank you.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:20

       ... tells a story and, as I call it, an impossible story of a young kid from Ghana that gets to the very top and becomes the first Black editor in British Vogue's history. But it's also just such a human story, the struggles that you're very vulnerable and open about. Um, and, and the, the ultimate sort of triumph at the end of this story, which is, I call it the end of the story. I mean, you've still got a vision board-

    8. EEEdward Enninful1:17:40

       (laughs)

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:40

       ... but, but as, as, a triumph that is, um, impossible but important and generational. You're an incredible person. Thank you for fighting. Please do keep fighting.

    10. EEEdward Enninful1:17:49

        Thank you.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:49

        Um, and I recommend everyone to go and check out this incredible book, A Visible Man, because, um, it needs to, it needs to be a visible book because it's, um, it certainly had a profound impact on my life. So thank you, Edward.

    12. EEEdward Enninful1:17:58

        Oh, thank you for having me. And keep on doing what you do.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:01

        I'm gonna. I hope you do, too. Thank you, Edward. (instrumental music) You know, the problem with protein powders is they tend to taste a bit, "Ugh." It feels like hard work to consume them. And then when I got Huel's protein powder, which by the way is 20 grams of protein and just 105 calories, and I tried it for the first time, there was this kind of mental confusion that it tastes as good as a milkshake I might buy in the corner shop. But it's nutritionally complete and has 20 grams of protein in it. And my favorite of all the flavors, I've got the chocolate fudge brownie flavor in front of me, is the salted caramel flavor with a little bit of ice in it. It is a dream. And I'm training at the moment, I'm doing cardiovascular training a- ahead of Soccer Aid, so having protein in my diet, especially when I'm incredibly busy, is a must-have for me. If you're looking for a good protein powder, I highly recommend you try this. Recommended it to my friend, Sam, and she's now obsessed with it. And I think if you try it, you'll find out why. (instrumental music) You got to the end of this podcast. Whenever someone gets to the end of this podcast, I feel like I owe them a, a greater debt of gratitude because that means you listened to the whole thing. And hopefully that suggests that you enjoyed it. If you are at the end and you enjoyed this podcast, could you do me a little bit of a favor and hit that subscribe button? That's one of the clearest indicators we have that this episode was a good episode, and we look at that on all of the episodes to see which episodes generated the most subscribers. Thank you so much, and I'll see you again next time.

Episode duration: 1:19:45