Elizabeth Day Opens Up About Heartbreak, Miscarriage & Failure | E77

Steven Bartlett 0:00 (music plays) Elizabeth Day is a world-renowned podcast host. She's a best-selling author, she's a successful journalist.

Elizabeth Day 0:05 I felt like a failure, but I probably wasn't. It was what I'd been told to feel. I've had countless failed relationships (laughs) and it sucks. Like, heartbreak, there is no pain like heartbreak. I now realize that I learned something very instructive from each one of those relationships and from the fact that they ended. It taught me something that I needed to know about myself. Infertility and miscarriages are not a mishap. Like, for people who experience it, it's a tragedy over which they have no control, and the idea that I was exploiting it to make a full-time career out of it was so insulting because I know how fucking painful and traumatic it is to go through.

Steven Bartlett 0:49 Being vulnerable, something I think we all find it incredibly hard to do. And after hearing my guest's story today, I had tears in my eyes maybe three or four times, and that's because she is willing to be vulnerable and honest and open about her truth, her trauma, and the things she's learned from her most testing times. Elizabeth Day is a world-renowned podcast host. She's a best-selling author, she's a successful journalist, honestly. She's quite frankly one of the most wonderful, smart, lovely people I've ever had the privilege of doing this podcast with. In fact, today, one of the issues I had with this podcast was we agree on so much that it's hard to play devil's advocate with her. It was hard to challenge her views because so many of them represented mine. It felt like she was reading out of my book, and I think that's powerful because she helped me build on my ideas. And some of these ideas are controversial, for some people maybe too controversial. It is remarkable how much societal expectations can cripple your chance of happiness, and I genuinely believe that if we had more people in the world like Elizabeth, who were willing to say what she says today, then maybe that wouldn't

Steven Bartlett 1:56 be the case. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. One of the things that I wrote recently, which, um, after doing a little bit of reading about your story and your journey, really, really resonated with me, um, was this idea that- that society's expectations of how your life is supposed to be going will fuck you up.

Elizabeth Day 2:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 2:29 And when I think about, you know, you've wro- written this amazing book about- called Failosophy, about failure, I was thinking, what is... Objectively, like, what is failure? And, um, my conclusion was that failure is like a byproduct of social expectations, um, that's- and as is success. So, could you talk to me a little bit about how social expectations have made you feel like a failure?

Elizabeth Day 2:55 Of course, yeah. I realized I had to define failure after I had launched a podcast called How to Fail and after I'd written a book called How to Fail, and then I kept getting asked this very reasonable question, and I realized I'd never come up with a satisfying definition for me. So, the definition I came up with in Failosophy is that failure is what happens when life doesn't go according to plan, which totally taps into what you just asked me about. Because then you need to start to think, well, where does the plan come from? Is it genuinely my plan? Is it genuinely what will make me happy? Or is it what I've been told I should expect my life to be? Because when I looked at some of my metrics for how my life "should" be, and I put that in quotation marks, it kind of came from, like, 1980s rom-coms (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 3:43 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 3:43 ... and- and patriarchal society and conditioning, and the idea that I'd been raised in the '80s to be a nice, pleasant, pliable girl, whereas boys were enabled to be mischievous, and that was seen as kind of cute and charming (laughs) . And, um, that led to me being an inveterate people pleaser, which I know is something that a lot of people have in this kind of industry, and it also led to me imagining that I wanted to be married and have children, and that's what I tried to do. And in my 30s, I did get married to the wrong person. I ended up getting divorced, and I tried but failed to have babies and went through various fertility treatments that were emotionally devastating in various ways, and it got to the point when I was 36, divorced, didn't have children, where I really did feel like a failure. And the reason I felt like a failure is because that's what society had conditioned me to believe of myself.

Steven Bartlett 4:38 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 4:39 Because actually, after I'd got over the pain and the grief caused by that seminal relationship ending and by all of the IVF and coming to terms with my first miscarriage and all of that, I actually felt strong for having withstood it, and I actually felt kind of liberated too, because I had no plan for the future, and having no plan for the future can be terrifying, and it can also be this enormous opportunity to change your life and to redefine it according to who you really are once you've stripped back that pretense. So, that's one way in which I felt like a failure, but I probably wasn't. It was what I'd been told to feel.

Steven Bartlett 5:22 So, I wanna- I wanna, like, pick around this a little bit, because I can resonate with this tremendously. In fact, that's why my book i- has the name it does, is because I was conditioned as a Black kid who was broke to believe that the thing that would make me a success was becoming this happy, sexy millionaire with a Range Rover under me-

Elizabeth Day 5:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:37 So, when I wrote in the front page of my diary that, you know, that's a kid from Africa, who in Africa had nothing but was, you know, my family were happy, bring that kid into a context or a con- yeah, a context-

Elizabeth Day 5:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:48 ... where the context is telling me that unless you're this, you should feel like shit. Um, that's why as a kid I was like, "Well, I need to be a happy, sexy millionaire." And to be fair, if I'd wrote something else, it would've been white, straight hair.

Elizabeth Day 6:00 Wow.

Steven Bartlett 6:00 Right? I was r- relaxing my hair chemically from the age of about 12 till about 16, till- so my hair was straight. But I wanna- I wanna go back to this- this point about society telling you, um, what you should want...Did you ever figure out what you actually wanted?

Elizabeth Day 6:18 Such a good question. Also, thank you for sharing what you just did.

Steven Bartlett 6:22 Yeah. It's a form of-

Elizabeth Day 6:22 Because I know that, yeah, you believe like I do that vulnerability is the source of connection, true connection, and that was really beautiful. Um, I think I have figured out who I am now, but I sit here as a 42-year-old-

Steven Bartlett 6:35 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 6:35 ... having only just figured that out. And the reason I figured it out is because of all of those things that went wrong, those relationships that ended, that imploded, the jobs that weren't right for me. Like, that was what prompted me to do the soul-searching. And I'm a big believer in things happening for a reason, the universe unfolding as is intended. E- even if you can't make something meaningful as and when it's happening because it's traumatic and it's devastating, I tend to believe that there will be some meaning in there in the fullness of time. There'll be something that I needed to learn. I wish sometimes I'd learnt the lessons more quickly because I believe I kept being sent the same lessons until I really, really learned the, the thing that I needed to learn.

Steven Bartlett 7:20 (laughs) Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 7:20 But I do think now that I'm aware of who I am because I've redefined my notion of success. So, in the past, my success was not necessarily being a happy, sexy millionaire, although I wouldn't say no.

Steven Bartlett 7:37 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 7:37 (laughs) In the past, I had a very different contextual upbringing from yours, and I'm immensely privileged in many ways. And one of the ways in which I am privileged is that there was a lot of kind of creativity and, um, cultural discussion in my home. Like, there, I was surrounded by books. I was never taught to feel that that was odd, that I read all the time or that I wanted to be an author even though there was no one in my family who did that. So, I had those kinda conversations, and that's an e- that's an enormously wealthy way to be brought up.

Steven Bartlett 8:12 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 8:12 And I, even though we didn't have that much money, that was very wealthy. And so, for me then, success was about doing well at school. It was doing well academically. And I realized that when I did well in an exam, I got approval. And that, for me, became a substitute for self-worth.

Steven Bartlett 8:28 Right.

Elizabeth Day 8:29 So, for a long time, I was on this feedback loop where I was like, "If only I could just do better and do better at more things, eventually I'll feel I'm worthwhile." And I was on a hiding to nothing because actually I was outsourcing my sense of self to everyone else's opinions of me and to kind of external validation. And I've now realized, and it's taken me a long time to realize this, that my only validation that means anything can come from within and from my cornerstone relationships, so like the four or five people I love most in the world whose opinion actually means something to me. That's what it is. Now, having worked that out, how can I bring my authentic self into every area of my life? And that's why the podcast, Has Failed, and the books about failure have genuinely been such a gift to me because they've enabled me to connect with a really big audience whilst being my true self, whilst taking the risk to be vulnerable, and that, for me, is success, being my authentic self in integrated self, so like-

Steven Bartlett 9:36 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 9:36 ... professionally, personally, and when I'm asleep. (laughs) Like, I'm-

Steven Bartlett 9:40 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 9:40 Or with my friendship group or when I'm stroking my cat. It's always the same me.

Steven Bartlett 9:44 I talk in... I, so I hate fucking plugging my own book, but it's, but the reason I'm doing it is because we very much think the same. And one of the chapters in my book is about making your, um, your context smaller and healthier.

Elizabeth Day 9:56 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 9:56 In an age of social media where I can compare-

Elizabeth Day 9:58 Love it.

Steven Bartlett 9:58 ... myself to a billion

Steven Bartlett 10:00 people who are all filtering themselves and fake, I implore like people to make their context, which, which is what-

Elizabeth Day 10:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:05 ... you've described as like four or five people, much smaller, like unfollow and mute all the toxic-

Elizabeth Day 10:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:10 ... con- people in your com- like, comparison bubble or whatever, and make it tight and healthy. That's so hard these days. Like-

Elizabeth Day 10:17 It's so hard. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 10:17 Do you know, like how? Like it's, I almost, I'd almost say it's, um, impossible if you're on social media platforms and following like the Kardashians or whatever. Uh, how does one, how does one do that and also stay on social media? Like, it's...

Elizabeth Day 10:30 Well, I need to ask you this.

Steven Bartlett 10:31 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 10:31 So I'm gonna ask you this-

Steven Bartlett 10:32 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 10:32 ... after I've tried to answer it because-

Steven Bartlett 10:34 Okay.

Elizabeth Day 10:34 ... I'm, I'm s- you have to deal with it on such a massive scale, and I'm just like a micro, tiny thing in comparison. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 10:42 (laughs) Yeah, I don't think that's fair. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 10:43 But the way, uh, uh, to answer that truly honestly, I'm still a h- a huge work in progress in that respect because I have the capacity to be undone by criticism. Like, I fi- I take it really, really personally.

Steven Bartlett 10:58 Tell me how personally. Give me an example.

Elizabeth Day 11:00 So personally.

Steven Bartlett 11:00 Give me an example.

Elizabeth Day 11:01 Okay. Um, two recent examples. One is that I went, um, a few weeks ago, I went on a lockdown walk with a friend of mine who I haven't seen for over a year. Socially distanced, it was my daily exercise that I was allowed to do with one person from another household. And I posted a picture of us socially distanced in a park on Instagram being like, "You know, this was really good for my (laughs) mental health, such an enjoyable walk." And someone commented saying, "I can't, this is so irresponsible of you to post this because hospitals are overwhelmed with COVID patients, and you're encouraging people just to like go out and about." And I was like, "Hang on a second. I w- was I..." That's where I go with it.

Steven Bartlett 11:44 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 11:44 I went, "Oh my God, I've done something wrong."

Steven Bartlett 11:46 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 11:46 "I've done something wrong." And these poor NHS doctors who are working, and I've just kicked them in the face metaphorically. And I was, and I, I had this process of like, "I've done something wrong. I'm a terrible person. I feel really bad about it. What can I do? Should I reply?" I go through that. That's the first place I go, and then I tell myself, "No, leave it 24 hours. Leave it 24 hours before you say anything." And then I just feel I have this like harness that settles around me for a day of feeling...... unsettled and a bit worried and anxious and are other people thinking that? Is there a whole group of people out there-

Steven Bartlett 12:27 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 12:27 ... that they're, like, meeting up behind closed doors to discuss how awful I am?

Steven Bartlett 12:31 Like launching your council campaign, like (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 12:33 Yes. And it's ridiculous. It's one person-

Steven Bartlett 12:36 You're not gonna be a shoulder in the house. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 12:38 Yeah. (laughs) It's awful. And I saw other people had liked that comment. I was like, "Oh my god. They hate me too." I'm... And basically, I just have to sit with it for a bit and it helps me to talk about it even though I sound completely doolally. But I do, I'm lucky enough to have an incredible resource in my husband who is just not on social media at all, and so is a very kind of sane mind to bring to it, and my best friend who's a psychotherapist. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 13:01 Okay, great. Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 13:01 And I spoke to her about it and she's like, "Okay, where I would go with it is, what pain is that person in that they've lashed out in this way?" And that's very helpful because it encourages you to feel compassion instead of got at and anger. I mean, that's one tiny example. Another example was Failosophy got reviewed (laughs) in a couple of places. And I, you know, I, I'm really proud of that book but it's a physically small book. I mean, it's got a lot of good content in it, don't get me wrong. And as you know, it's hard to make big ideas accessible. But I did not expect it to get reviewed in the national press, but it did. And it got reviewed by people who wanted to find fault with it.

Steven Bartlett 13:42 Right.

Elizabeth Day 13:42 Who did not like the fact that I seemed to be exploiting failure for my own success, which is absolutely not the case.

Steven Bartlett 13:54 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 13:54 Like, I want to share the stuff that I've learned. That's all I wanted to do. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 13:58 Fucking hell. Exploiting failure for your own success. Fucking hell.

Elizabeth Day 14:02 (laughs) Anyway, so that was, that was just like I went down a rabbit hole of looking at the reviewers' Instagram and all of that sort of stuff, which is terrible. Anyway, I know I shouldn't go down these rabbit holes of self-loathing, and most of the time, I'm able not to. But just occasionally, if I'm feeling low or particularly sensitive that day, it will affect me.

Steven Bartlett 14:22 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 14:23 And my tactic for protecting myself is absolutely if you said, as you said, to unfollow and mute, to curate my feed, to keep my phone on airplane mode in the morning so my phone is not the first thing I look at.

Steven Bartlett 14:37 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 14:37 When I'm writing, I put my phone on airplane mode as well, and I find it a real relief. And also to try and practice the art of generosity, and to believe in abundance. Because I think a lot of my mindset around competitiveness or envy is because I believe in a scarcity of resources.

Steven Bartlett 14:58 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 14:58 And I believe success is scarce, and I believe money is scarce, and love is scarce, and we all have to compete for it.

Steven Bartlett 15:05 It's a zero sum game.

Elizabeth Day 15:07 Yeah. Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 15:07 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 15:07 And actually, just flipping the switch and being like, "No. The world is abundant, and everyone's success can mirror your own." Like, and if you give and if you come at life from a generous place, then hopefully that will feed back to you. So those are my tactics.

Steven Bartlett 15:27 Interesting.

Elizabeth Day 15:28 How do you deal with it?

Steven Bartlett 15:30 Um, so I, I think it's important to be honest as well. I'm... I've read a lot about this, this topic. I've spoken to psychologists. I've sat here with guests and, you know, asked them about this. And this is probably maybe a liberating but also a terrifying answer. Even I have exactly what you described.

Elizabeth Day 15:47 I feel so much better. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:48 Do you know what's funny? The reason... When I was laughing, you went-

Elizabeth Day 15:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:51 You said to me, you went, "Oh, I know it sounds cuckoo." I was laughing because it's you were, you were telling me my life.

Elizabeth Day 15:55 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 15:56 You know what I mean? Like, I will, I will get one comment on one thing and I'll be like, "Let's look at this Jonathan Davis and find out a little about..." You know what I mean?

Elizabeth Day 16:05 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:05 I'll fucking find out how his, his family are. It'll be just-

Elizabeth Day 16:08 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:08 ... some flippant comment surrounded by a thousand positive ones.

Elizabeth Day 16:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:11 But I'm like, "I'm gonna f- find this guy's birth records and we're gonna find out." (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 16:15 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:15 You know what I mean? Like private investigator.

Elizabeth Day 16:17 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:17 And the way you described that feeling of like, it bothers you. You're like, "Shall I respond?" Sometimes I respond. I'm like, then I delete it super fast 'cause I'm like, you know, you rise above.

Elizabeth Day 16:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 16:25 And then I've also felt in the bigger moments where something more controversial has happened, I've also felt that like thing around me for about, like, 48 hours.

Elizabeth Day 16:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:34 That feeling of, like, anxiousness.

Elizabeth Day 16:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:36 Like you described, like, "Wait, does, is this, does everyone..."

Elizabeth Day 16:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:39 You think all your f-... All my friends that are quiet, they all think that I've, I'm finished. You know what I mean?

Elizabeth Day 16:43 (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:43 And they're not saying anything.

Elizabeth Day 16:44 Am I adopted? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:46 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 16:47 Like, it's like you're obviously... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:47 So here's my, here's my, here's my productive, um, conclusion though, is one of the things we're not taught to do is to use social media in a conscious way. So we, like, sign up and then we just go with the algorithm.

Elizabeth Day 16:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 16:58 And the algorithm will be like, "Be pretty." Or and then they'll clap for you, good, good one. And then it'll be like, "You do this," (clapping hands) and we clap and, and then it will tell us to follow lots of people who we compare ourselves to and create this really unhealthy context in which we, our self-worth is clearly our, you know, achievement, success, and beauty is clearly less than all of these people. And because it's so unconscious, we become a victim to the algorithms and to this, this, like, awful toxic experiment. So the, the, the answer for me is just to use social media in a, in a much more conscious way.

Elizabeth Day 17:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:26 You've described it there which is, like, unfollow people that are bad for you, turn off your notifications. Um, when I, on Twitter, when I do a tweet and it goes, like, semi-viral, I know that for the next 48 hours I'm gonna get all kinds of Twitter eggs and all, so I just mute it straight away.

Elizabeth Day 17:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:41 I did it last night. I did a tweet, started getting all these responses, hit mute, and it's disappeared.

Elizabeth Day 17:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:46 I don't see any responses.

Elizabeth Day 17:48 Exactly what I do.

Steven Bartlett 17:48 And this is the, like, conscious, you know, effort that I have to make to keep my context healthy and to protect myself.

Elizabeth Day 17:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:56 You know?

Elizabeth Day 17:57 Do you know, I had a really interesting experience on Twitter recently and it's, it's, it's fascinating because I think I care less about Twitter because I don't feel as myself on Twitter. I suppose because I'm super conscious of how you can send out an ill-thought tweet one day and, like, lose everything the next. Instagram, rightly or wrongly, just feels safer. It feels more like a warm bath, whereas Twitter is like a kind of shower of hail (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 18:21 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 18:21 ... a lot of the time.And, uh, but I- I- on- recently on Twitter, someone messaged me saying, "Oh, that thing that was in the Times Magazine about you was so unfair." And I hadn't read it, and I then went and looked at the article, and it was an interview with another author. And the journalist had said- had compared this person to me and a couple of other people and said, you know, "Now there's this trend," I'm paraphrasing, "for people to use their mishaps and exploit them and turn them into full-time careers with non-stop webinars and Instagram Lives." And she said like, "Like Elizabeth Day with infertility." And I was like, "That sits so badly with me," because infertility and miscarriages are not a mishap. Like, for people who experience it, it's a tragedy over which they have no control. And the idea that I was exploiting it to make a full-time career out of it with non-stop webinars, I've never done a webinar in my life by the way, was so insulting to me because I had a career apart from that and before that, and it's that I choose to use my platform to talk about something that a great deal of people feel a great deal of misplaced shame over. And that was one example, in fact the only one I can think of, where I did respond.

Steven Bartlett 19:33 Mm.

Elizabeth Day 19:33 Because it was so deeply, deeply personal to who I was, and I felt an attack on my integrity and a complete misreading of what I was trying to do. And I tweeted something that was really calm and that was like, you know, "I refute this for these reasons." And it was an excellent lesson in how sometimes it is important to stand up for something. I had an outpouring of incredible support from other people who I'd never met, which meant a great deal to me.

Steven Bartlett 20:06 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 20:06 The journalist in question had the grace afterwards to apologize, but they changed the wording in the online piece. And if I hadn't sent out that tweet, there would be no record of it having happened.

Steven Bartlett 20:17 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 20:17 And these things are really important to call out sometimes. So I think when it's an attack on the integrity of who you are and what you do, then sometimes it is worth drawing breath and saying something calmly and just stating your position.

Steven Bartlett 20:31 And in that case as well, your- d- courage, shall I say, to speak about- to have that vulnerability creates a culture where more people will speak out. And it's that-

Elizabeth Day 20:41 I hope so.

Steven Bartlett 20:41 And that is so powerful and helpful for so many other people who are going through that and can't re- and can't find, um, a voice that they can relate to and c- you know, create that sense of, um, understanding by-

Steven Bartlett 20:53 by hearing your story.

Elizabeth Day 20:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:54 Same with the mental health.

Elizabeth Day 20:55 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 20:56 Um, conversation over the last 10 years. If people weren't speaking about it, the place we'd be in is quite terrifying to think of. And you wouldn't say those people h- have exploited it, right?

Elizabeth Day 21:04 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:04 So it's just a ... I mean, it's such a nonsense-

Elizabeth Day 21:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:05 ... thing for someone to write that I don't- actually don't wanna spend too much time talking about it.

Elizabeth Day 21:08 Thank you. (paper rustles)

Steven Bartlett 21:09 Quick one. Starting from the minute the lockdown is lifted, we're gonna start bringing in some of our subscribers to watch how this podcast is produced behind the scenes. Means you get to meet the guests, meet myself, and see how we put all of this together. If you want that to be you, all you've gotta do, hit the subscribe button. (paper rustles) So let's talk about people pleasing.

Elizabeth Day 21:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:27 You said you're a people pleaser.

Elizabeth Day 21:28 Yes. Well, I'm a reformed people pleaser now.

Steven Bartlett 21:30 Okay, so you used to be.

Elizabeth Day 21:31 Now I don't give a fuck what you think, Steven. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:33 Oh, here we go. Oh, shit. Okay.

Elizabeth Day 21:34 I really do. Um, yes. So I, like many women of my age, was raised in the '80s and early '90s in a culture where it was still very, very gender stereotyped. I mean, we've come so far in the last decade, I think, in understanding that. But as a result, I always thought that my worth as a person was predicated on keeping other people happy. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 22:02 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 22:02 So I got into a series of long-term monogamous relationships from the age of 19 to 36. Like that- ther- the biggest gap between those relationships was like a month.

Steven Bartlett 22:13 You're joking.

Elizabeth Day 22:14 No. Because I was like, "Who am I unless I'm making someone else happy, unless I'm being someone else's perfect partner, unless I'm- I'm trying to second guess what they might want for dinner. And it- when they ask me, like, 'Where do I want to go for lunch?' 'I don't know, where would you like to go?'" Like, that was my life. It was ridiculous and it manifested itself at work as well. I was always the person who said yes to overtime, yes to the commissions that no one else wanted, because I thought eventually I'll be rewarded. And I got a staff feature writer job at The Observer, a Sunday newspaper in the UK, when I was 29, and I was the youngest feature writer there, and so I felt really intimidated. And so part of my constantly saying yes and showing willing was to try and fit in and be accepted, and actually you just become an easily exploitable asset.

Steven Bartlett 23:06 Mm.

Elizabeth Day 23:07 And I realized after eight years of that job that I was never going to be moved anywhere. I did ask. I asked for, like, different roles, different challenges, and the answer was always no. And it was because I was- I was doing too much where I was, like, why would they want to move me?

Steven Bartlett 23:23 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 23:23 I was providing them with an excellent service-

Steven Bartlett 23:26 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 23:26 ... where I was. I was making myself too indispensable, and I was absolutely n- refusing to complain.

Steven Bartlett 23:32 That's what I was gonna say, you weren't gonna complain.

Elizabeth Day 23:34 Never. And never asked for a pay rise, Steven. I mean- (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 23:37 Wow.

Elizabeth Day 23:37 Which is- uh, actually makes me feel slightly sick now looking back, 'cause I am a feminist and I do believe women should ask for the pay that they deserve.

Steven Bartlett 23:45 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 23:45 But I didn't. I was too intimidated. And, um, ultimately I think people pleasing can start from a desire to be nice and to think of others, and that's a really beautiful thing. But taken to its extreme, which is where I would put myself, it actually becomes very selfish because you never take the time to know who you truly are. And that leads you into situations and relationships that you shouldn't be in because you're not fully giving yourself. You're giving a version of perfection to someone that is never fully real.

Steven Bartlett 24:20 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 24:21 So I never felt able to show who I really was, and- and that's the state of mind I got married in. And little wonder that it ended.

Steven Bartlett 24:28 Is that why you think it ended?

Elizabeth Day 24:30 Part of the, mmm, part of the reason. Like, I definitely found it very difficult to find my voice for a long time.

Steven Bartlett 24:39 What does that mean in a relationship?

Elizabeth Day 24:42 Um, it meant that I was extremely conflict-avoidant. So instead of saying how I felt about something, I would turn it inwards and be silent and then get mildly depressed. Uh, so that's a difficult person to be with. They don't seem difficult at all because they're like, "Look, I've cooked you dinner, and I've got all your favorite things, and I've come up with this perfectly thoughtful gift for Christmas."

Steven Bartlett 25:08 (laughs) Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 25:09 (laughs) But that's all, like, distraction. It's all like, "Just don't look at the m- mess I actually am inside." Um, so I had to do a lot of work on myself. It was part of the reason, it wasn't the whole reason. Um, there was a whole pile of other stuff that I can't go into because it involves someone else. But that was definitely like, I do think that when a relationship ends, you have to look at yourself and be really honest about how you played into that dysfunctional dynamic to avoid making the same mistakes.

Steven Bartlett 25:37 I'm not in a relationship. (clears throat) I've actually really struggled with relationships. And I was thinking about this last night when I was working out. I was thinking, much of the reason why I've struggled is 'cause I think I'm probably too selfish, right?

Elizabeth Day 25:48 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:48 I think that I'm uncompromising as well. And it's something that I've tried over the last couple of years

Steven Bartlett 25:54 to really, like, defeat in myself, which is, in, in work, I'm required to a certain type of person to succeed, which is, like, quite certain about the right approach-

Elizabeth Day 26:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:02 ... focused, hardworking. Um, a lot of things in the professional environment d- aren't actually democratic. Like, the big decisions, they, they li- you, the buck stops with you. Um, in relationships, um, communication and compromise and being more democratic in things and really trying to meet, um, someone else's needs are the im-, I guess, the attributes for success.

Elizabeth Day 26:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:27 Communication. Let's talk, talk about that. How important is it to, um, from your experiences in relationships that have, you know, gone, done well by your definition and ended by your definition, um, to communicate how you're feeling-

Elizabeth Day 26:40 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 26:40 ... and what your needs are?

Elizabeth Day 26:41 I, it's so important. It's everything. I'm very interested in what you just said there, so I'm gonna come back to that question you asked me. The, the fact that you have, that you believe you might need different modes of communication in business and in personal relationships.

Steven Bartlett 26:55 Slightly different. I, and th- this is, like, super controversial because, because people will think that ... So communication is incredibly important in my professional life.

Elizabeth Day 27:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:05 It's actually the things, things like ... So in my, in my professional life, if I don't wanna do something or if I think it's a bad use of my time, I say, "No, don't, don't, don't do it. Cancel it."

Elizabeth Day 27:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:16 Whereas in my romantic life-

Elizabeth Day 27:18 You can't do that.

Steven Bartlett 27:19 If I don't wanna do som-

Elizabeth Day 27:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:20 I don't wanna go down and walk, walk in the park, but I've gotta be like, "Fine."

Elizabeth Day 27:24 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 27:24 Do you know what I mean? And, and, and I can be ... I'm su- In my pro- In my professional life, I'm a radical about how I spend my time.

Elizabeth Day 27:30 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:30 'Cause I, 'cause you get so many things calling for your time, you have to be like, "Nope, nope, nope. Cancel it. Move it. Nope, no, no." In my per- professional life, it's like, "What do you wanna do? Do you wanna cook for two hours?"

Elizabeth Day 27:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:39 Fine. You know, and in, in it, I, my brain's like, "Which of ... Is that an efficient use of time?" You know.

Elizabeth Day 27:44 So interesting because in your professional life as well, you're in a position where you need to know the answers. Someone will come to you for a decision, and you need to know.

Steven Bartlett 27:50 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 27:50 You need to be like a benign dictator and just be like, "Right, this, that." And, and therefore, do you think that in your personal life, you don't think it's okay to say, "I don't know." I don't know if I want to.

Steven Bartlett 28:03 (laughs) It's just like the compromise of, like, not doing things I don't wanna do. So-

Elizabeth Day 28:06 Just don't do things you don't wanna do. This is so interesting. So my, my now partner, husband is amazing, and he's a CEO. And he said to me in the early days of our relationship, "I never do anything I don't want to do." And I was like-

Steven Bartlett 28:19 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 28:19 ... "Selfish."

Steven Bartlett 28:20 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 28:20 I was like, "I'm a people pleaser, so wait-"

Steven Bartlett 28:23 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 28:23 "... this is never gonna work." Um, but he's ... Uh, uh, the knock-on effect of that ... Basically what he was saying is, "I'm honest." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:33 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 28:33 "And I will tell you if I don't wanna do something. So if I say yes, that yes is really meaningful." And that's such a weight, like, it's such a weight off my mind because I'm not having to second guess whether he really means it.

Steven Bartlett 28:46 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 28:46 When he says he'll come for lunch with my family or whatever-

Steven Bartlett 28:49 Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 28:49 ... I know that he's invested in that. So actually ...

Steven Bartlett 28:53 I'm your husband for a second.

Elizabeth Day 28:55 Okay. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:56 Okay. I go ... You say to me, "I'd love to go walk in the park."

Elizabeth Day 28:59 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 28:59 And I go, "Nah. I, I wanna sit on my laptop and send these emails." And then five minutes and then 10 minutes later, you go, "Oh, I would love to cook with you." And he goes, "Nope, I wanna watch"-

Elizabeth Day 29:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:07 "... YouTube videos about SpaceX." (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 29:09 Okay. So I'm your wife, and I say, "I completely understand that 'cause you're having a really heavy week at work. I'd really like to go to the park 'cause I really want to spend quality time with you, and it would make me feel sad if we didn't do that." Then what would you say?

Steven Bartlett 29:23 I'd say yes, yeah. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 29:24 There you go. And do you think you'd want to say yes?

Steven Bartlett 29:26 Yeah, of course, I would, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 29:27 There you go.

Steven Bartlett 29:28 Of course. It's ju- I don't know why I always fail on this thing. I just think the amount of time and attention, um, my f- previous partners have, um, have asked of me-

Elizabeth Day 29:37 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:37 ... I've not been able to deliver. And I'm like, I will go, "I'll text maybe once a day." When I'm in my, when I'm in, like, the tornado of the business-

Elizabeth Day 29:45 Yeah, you're so like Justin. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 29:46 Is that really ... (laughs) And, like, it doesn't mean I don't love you.

Elizabeth Day 29:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:49 It means that I'm in, in a mild crisis, which I can't tell you about because I, I haven't got time to, like, divulge all of my bullshit.

Elizabeth Day 29:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:56 So ...

Elizabeth Day 29:57 But sorry, how ... You're really young, aren't you? How old are you?

Steven Bartlett 30:00 20 s- 28 now, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 30:02 And you're dating your age group, I'm assuming.

Steven Bartlett 30:05 Typically a little bit younger, like two years younger.

Elizabeth Day 30:09 Yeah, you see, that's, that it's, that's very difficult. It's so difficult dating in your 20s anyway.

Steven Bartlett 30:13 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 30:13 Full stop.

Steven Bartlett 30:14 Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 30:14 But when you're you and you're basically living the life and you have the wisdom of a 45-year-old, that's very difficult because the other person hasn't had that life experience yet to know.

Steven Bartlett 30:25 Oh, you're so right.

Elizabeth Day 30:27 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 30:27 You're so right. (laughs) Honestly, you're so right.

Elizabeth Day 30:30 I'll settle you up. Don't ... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 30:31 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 30:31 I'll settle you up at 85 years old.

Steven Bartlett 30:33 Are we friends? Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 30:34 Imagine. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 30:35 Can you imagine?

Elizabeth Day 30:35 Um, but communication-

Steven Bartlett 30:36 Oh, you're so right, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 30:37 ... is the be all and end all for me. And when I met Justin, who is now my husband, it was a really difficult learning process for me because he had a very different mode of communication. Beca- because he is a founder and a CEO, and he didn't have time to text me, and I fucking love texts.

Steven Bartlett 30:57 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 30:57 I'm a writer. That's what-

Steven Bartlett 30:58 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 30:58 ... I don't... I hate a phone call. I've had to get used to it now in the global pandemic.

Steven Bartlett 31:02 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 31:02 But I w- hate a phone call. I always think I've done something wrong. Whereas Justin was always like, "Why would I take time to text you when I can just call you and convey the necessary information?" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:12 The necessary information.

Elizabeth Day 31:13 Honestly. And he said this thing, and, uh, and I kept bringing it up, and I was like, "If you, if I don't hear from you for, like, three days, that's really upsetting to me, and it's not gonna work if that continues." He was like, "Okay. I hear that." He was like, "For me, text is a very cheap form of communication."

Steven Bartlett 31:31 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 31:31 "And it's something you do when you don't really care, and I do it a lot for work. So for me, it's much more important to spend time together." Anyway-

Steven Bartlett 31:37 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 31:37 ... we've sorted it out, and I think that's about having different love languages.

Steven Bartlett 31:42 I thought you were gonna say-

Elizabeth Day 31:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:43 ... that at some point. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 31:43 And I made him take the quiz, and it was really helpful.

Steven Bartlett 31:46 What was he?

Elizabeth Day 31:46 He was acts of service.

Steven Bartlett 31:48 Ah, no way.

Elizabeth Day 31:49 But he was also-

Steven Bartlett 31:50 So am I.

Elizabeth Day 31:51 Yeah, there you go. It's what you do.

Steven Bartlett 31:54 (laughs) Oh, that's so, ugh.

Elizabeth Day 31:55 But he was also, he wasn't interested in words of affirmation at all, which is mine.

Steven Bartlett 31:59 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 31:59 I like to just compliment me all the time. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 32:01 Was he touch?

Elizabeth Day 32:02 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 32:03 I thought so. So am I.

Elizabeth Day 32:04 Oh my God, you're c- you're literally, like, the same person.

Steven Bartlett 32:07 Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 32:07 That's, yeah, and I was, when he took that, I was really surprised. It was quite, uh, early days of our relationship and he hadn't given me the impression of needing touch.

Steven Bartlett 32:16 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 32:16 And then once I, once I knew that, I was like, "Oh, that's lovely 'cause I like that too."

Steven Bartlett 32:20 Are you quality time and, uh, there's quality time's one of them.

Elizabeth Day 32:24 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 32:24 And words of affirmation, maybe?

Elizabeth Day 32:26 Yes, I'm totally. So I was totally words of affirmation when we took the test. But I think that's because I'd come off a, a really bad patch of relationships where I didn't feel safe in those relationships, so I was constantly looking for something to paper over the cracks. And for me, that papering came in the form of compliments.

Steven Bartlett 32:45 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 32:45 That was, like, the easiest thing to ask for.

Steven Bartlett 32:48 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 32:49 And so that's what I thought I needed. But now, actually, in my relationship, I feel really safe. So for me, it is quality time. It still words of affirmation, but quality time is super important. And, and I now realize that Justin is very good at taking feedback. That's because that's the business brain, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 33:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 33:08 You have, so I don't need to sugarcoat something. I can say, "Listen, I need this," or, "I feel this." And sometimes he'll need time... I hope he doesn't mind me talking about him (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 33:18 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 33:18 ... 'cause he's so private. But sometimes he'll need time to, like, uh, think it through-

Steven Bartlett 33:22 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 33:23 ... and sort of strategize it and, like, digest it.

Steven Bartlett 33:26 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 33:26 And I always know, he, it's never that he's forgotten. He'll come back and he'll be like, "Right, I agree, and this is the action that we're gonna take."

Steven Bartlett 33:32 Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 33:32 And it's amazing.

Steven Bartlett 33:33 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 33:33 And I love that. I really love that. I used to think it was unromantic. It's not at all.

Steven Bartlett 33:38 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 33:38 It's the most romantic thing because I'm being taken really seriously.

Steven Bartlett 33:43 And I'm guessing, and this is a guess, but I do you say it to him without too much, like, uh, emotion. 'Cause he sounds-

Elizabeth Day 33:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:51 ... like a very pragmatic guy. So the way that I like to receive feedback like that from my ex was just ver- like, without blame or, like-

Elizabeth Day 33:59 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 34:00 ... um, too much emotion and just like, "Here are the facts."

Elizabeth Day 34:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:02 That's the best way I like to receive feedback, you know?

Elizabeth Day 34:04 Yes, completely. But do sh- uh, separate to you getting feedback, if your partner is emotional-

Steven Bartlett 34:12 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 34:12 ... and is crying at a film or is sad about something, so moved to tears or feeling anxious or they have-

Steven Bartlett 34:18 Fine.

Elizabeth Day 34:19 ... Yes.

Steven Bartlett 34:19 That's fine.

Elizabeth Day 34:20 Exactly the same.

Steven Bartlett 34:21 It's just the feed-

Elizabeth Day 34:22 Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 34:22 ... you know, 'cause, you know what I mean? You deal with people-

Elizabeth Day 34:24 You don't want it with judgment.

Steven Bartlett 34:25 Yeah, and you, in his business, I'm sure he'll deal with people all day who give him feedback in a very practical, pragmatic way.

Elizabeth Day 34:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:31 And that's the way you c- become used to it. And it, and he'll have the same problem as me, whereas sometimes in business, you'll get feedback in a very, quite an help- uh, helpfully emotional way.

Elizabeth Day 34:41 Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 34:41 And now you're trying to deal with this, you're not sure which issue you're actually dealing with, right?

Elizabeth Day 34:45 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:46 So when you present it without the emotion, I understand what I'm aiming at here.

Elizabeth Day 34:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:49 It's the same as me. Yeah. I, d- I feel like a bit of a scumbag for having, uh, acts of service as my-

Elizabeth Day 34:54 No, that's a really lovely thing.

Steven Bartlett 34:55 But d- but d- doesn't it sound cheesy? It's like, I would like you to serve me with a-

Elizabeth Day 34:59 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 34:59 You know what I mean? And I-

Elizabeth Day 35:00 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 35:00 I was going through that love language thing and I was thinking, why is it that someone getting me something that they knew would help me-

Elizabeth Day 35:08 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:08 ... doing something that they knew would help me, means so much to me? 'Cause for me that, 'cause, 'cause my life is tough and challenging, I see it as

Steven Bartlett 35:16 them showing an action, which is actions speak louder than words-

Elizabeth Day 35:19 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:20 ... how much they cared about helping me.

Elizabeth Day 35:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:22 And for me that's like, I'm like, "Oh God," you know?

Elizabeth Day 35:24 And also probably because you've had to be incredibly self-sufficient.

Steven Bartlett 35:28 Yeah, (sighs) yeah.

Elizabeth Day 35:28 You are, like, a, the definition of a self-starter. You've had to rely on yourself so much that for someone else to step in and be like, "I've got this for you."

Steven Bartlett 35:38 It means a lot, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 35:38 It must (laughs) , it's so meaningful.

Steven Bartlett 35:39 Yeah. And you're carrying so much.

Elizabeth Day 35:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:40 So if someone comes in and says, "Oh, yeah, I'll carry one of these bags for you," it's like, "Oh, thank you."

Elizabeth Day 35:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:44 You know what I mean?

Elizabeth Day 35:45 I totally get it.

Steven Bartlett 35:46 Interesting. One of the things you said was that you, you were, I guess, um, scared of being lonely at the end of your life.

Elizabeth Day 35:53 Oh my gosh, yes. That's my (laughs) existential fear.

Steven Bartlett 35:56 Really?

Elizabeth Day 35:56 That and pigeons.

Steven Bartlett 35:56 Still?

Elizabeth Day 35:57 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:57 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 35:58 Um, do you know what?

Steven Bartlett 35:59 Maybe after this (laughs) .

Elizabeth Day 36:02 (laughs) Interestingly, the global pandemic has been so tough and so much tougher for so many people than it has been for me in myriad ways. One of the unexpected side benefits is that I've really got comfortable with my fear of loneliness. Because overnight, my diary was totally empty, so I had no social engagements, I couldn't see friends, and it made me realize that I didn't really want to see the majority of people that I was going to see. Like, I'd said yes to social situations that I didn't really want to go to but I felt like I should and I didn't want to offend someone by not letting them down.

Steven Bartlett 36:44 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 36:44 That's still the people pleaser in me. Um, and having the freedom to choose who I wanted to invest time in was hugely beneficial for me.

Steven Bartlett 36:55 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 36:55 Because I realized actually that w-... my core, my nucleus of people is very, very small.

Steven Bartlett 37:01 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 37:02 And actually, if I've got Justin and my best friend, I'm good. I'm good. And beyond that, you know, my closest friends, like, I actively want to see them and... But I realize that I was just spending a lot of time not nurturing those friendships because I knew that I would be able to step back into them, and I knew that I'd be accepted-

Steven Bartlett 37:25 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 37:25 ... 'cause that's the level of great friendship, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 37:27 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 37:27 Like, you're just always welcome back. And I was spending a lot of time trying to nurture these other ones that were less meaningful to me, that required more of it because they weren't as generous in their acceptance of me. So, actually, my fear of loneliness has slightly lessened now.

Steven Bartlett 37:41 That's good news.

Elizabeth Day 37:42 Yes, isn't it? And although you probably can't tell, I am actually an introvert, but I've successfully learned how to be extrovert and how to,

Elizabeth Day 37:53 um, pretend I'm confident when I don't feel it and all of that sort of stuff. And I've realized that I'm also pretty resilient when my world shrinks.

Steven Bartlett 38:04 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 38:04 So I think I'm gonna be okay. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:06 Fantastic news. Silver lining.

Elizabeth Day 38:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:09 Uh, on that point of confidence, it's something that people ask me about all the time-

Elizabeth Day 38:12 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 38:12 ... which is, confidence seems to be one of the great barriers of people pursuing themself-

Elizabeth Day 38:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:18 ... as you've described, pursuing their dreams, pursuing who they are. Some people will know who they think they are, but they don't have the confidence to take the leap, per se. Are you confident?

Elizabeth Day 38:28 Um, yes, in certain things. So I'm confident that I can write. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:34 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 38:35 I'm now confident that I can podcast.

Steven Bartlett 38:39 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 38:39 That I can do a good podcast. Um...

Steven Bartlett 38:42 You're a great talker. I was thinking this as you were speaking. I was thinking y- I was thinking, yeah, 'cause I understand why she has a really good podcast.

Elizabeth Day 38:47 Oh, thank you. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:47 You're very, you know, you're very, like, articulate, self-aware, but you're really good at, you know, talking. You know?

Elizabeth Day 38:52 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 38:52 It sounds like a strange thing to say to someone-

Elizabeth Day 38:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:53 ... but you know, you are.

Elizabeth Day 38:54 Well, I think I'm good at connecting with people.

Steven Bartlett 38:58 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 38:58 And that's something that I really cherish because that's where all the good stuff lies for me.

Steven Bartlett 39:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 39:04 Like, I love having a conversation like this on such a real level-

Steven Bartlett 39:09 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 39:10 ... with someone and connecting.

Steven Bartlett 39:11 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 39:12 That's heaven to me. Like, this is introversion heaven.

Steven Bartlett 39:16 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 39:16 It's like, I don't wanna be at a big party, like, trying to have this conversation with you.

Steven Bartlett 39:21 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 39:21 Like, that would be stressful. Um, so I'm confident there, and you'll notice that those are all things that I do. I'm not hugely confident about myself in the sense that I still struggle with self-worth. And I realize that that's probably sounds really nauseating for me to sit here in this lovely place, being interviewed for this fabulous podcast, drinking my cup of middle-class green tea. Like, it sounds absurd for me to say that, and also self-indulgent, but that's me being really honest. Like, I've just got... That, that's something that, uh, I really struggle with, like, just feeling that I'm enough.

Steven Bartlett 40:08 Interesting. So the conclusive chapter in my book, Chapter 20-

Elizabeth Day 40:12 Hmm. Should I read it?

Steven Bartlett 40:13 ... is all about this topic.

Elizabeth Day 40:14 Okay. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and I, and I, 'cause I think, and I spoke to some psychologists and stuff, and I battered around with this idea of, um, this contradiction of how I could possibly be enough but ambitious.

Elizabeth Day 40:27 Yeah. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 40:28 Do you know what I mean? Like, it's-

Elizabeth Day 40:29 I know exactly what you mean.

Steven Bartlett 40:29 ... feels like a contradiction.

Elizabeth Day 40:31 Yeah, and that's that thing that I always fear. If I, if I tackle my self-worth and I cure myself, will I just have no drive?

Steven Bartlett 40:39 Okay, so this is Chapter 20.

Elizabeth Day 40:40 I'll never... Okay. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:41 And it's crazy 'cause you would've, you'll resonate with this.

Elizabeth Day 40:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:44 I actually started the chapter s- set out to answer the question, and I answered it as I was typing. And I n- And so usually, as you'll discover, like, in the book, is, um, a lot of the time, it's just a shitty use of words that are holding us back. So one of the things like is, you know, "Is he your soulmate?" That, there, there's so many presumptions within that.

Elizabeth Day 41:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:02 Like that you'll, that a soulmate exists.

Elizabeth Day 41:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:05 You have one of them, you'll be able to find them. Um, and in fact, if you ask yourself, maybe the, the concept of a soulmate doesn't actually exist. Same thing with, "Are you enough?" Right? So the, the term enough, this is what was my conclusion, first assumes that we can become less and more.

Elizabeth Day 41:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:21 How can we become less and more?

Elizabeth Day 41:22 That's a good point.

Steven Bartlett 41:23 In- in- intri- in- innately-

Elizabeth Day 41:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:25 ... and intrinsically, how can we ever, how can Elizabeth ever be intrinsically, innat- like, in- inside less or more? You're always gonna be you, same hair, same arms, same legs, same talent, same skills. You inherently, like, i- intrinsically never change.

Elizabeth Day 41:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:41 You never become less, more, enough. You just are. The, the reason why we have these metrics, again, is because it's an external extrinsic comparison.

Elizabeth Day 41:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:48 So I am not enough, you know, my Nokia is not enough a- alongside an iPhone.

Elizabeth Day 41:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:54 So I thought, in fact... And then when you have that feeling of, like, being less or more or enough, what you then pursue is the pursuit of becoming more. But because it was driven by external factors, your ambition becomes externally driven. So for me, I didn't think I was enough, so I w- was trying to get a Lamborghini.

Elizabeth Day 42:12 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:12 And in fact, it's the belie- it's the knowing that you never become less, more, or enough, that intrinsic feeling, that makes you pursue ambit- the right things for the right reasons. So once I knew I was enough, I then went after things I actually gave a shit about intrinsically. I stopped going after Lamborghinis, and I started going after like, "I would love to do a book."

Elizabeth Day 42:31 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:31 "I would love to learn piano." And so my conclusive point is that, in fact, it's the bel- it's the knowing that you're enough and that, in fact, you never become less or more regardless of what you achieve or accomplish, that is the foundation of real ambition.

Elizabeth Day 42:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:43 Real ambition is for you.

Elizabeth Day 42:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:45 It's chasing what you want for your reasons. That was my conclusion. So the enough thing is actually bullshit, which is just social, which then causes bullshit ambitions, like Lamborghinis-

Elizabeth Day 42:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:54 ... and, uh, realizing that you never, yeah, you never become less, more, or enough-... intrinsically allows you to have intrinsic ambitions, and that is real ambition. That's, so that's my conclusive point.

Elizabeth Day 43:04 Which is so, so mind-blowingly good, and also connects to that whole thing, that bullshit about soulmates.

Steven Bartlett 43:11 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 43:11 Because there's that belief that a soulmate will complete you. Now, what you're saying there, you're saying that you're incomplete in and of yourself.

Steven Bartlett 43:17 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 43:17 And that there's only one true way to

Narrator 43:19 Exactly.

Elizabeth Day 43:19 ... form, like, all of that. I hate that. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:21 So the question comes in a very innocent way. It's like-

Elizabeth Day 43:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:23 ... "Is he your soulmate?" And-

Elizabeth Day 43:24 You-

Steven Bartlett 43:24 ... it's the moment you accept it that you also accept seven other pieces of unintended bullshit.

Elizabeth Day 43:29 Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:29 Which is like that you're incomplete now, that you, you've done a, you're a failure at not finding this person, and all of these other pieces of bullshit. It's the same with, like, "Are..." For me, it's the same as, like, "Are you in love?" or "Have you found your passion?"

Elizabeth Day 43:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 43:41 "Have you found your passion?" is like a... I posted about this the other day as, like, another just really difficult piece of bullshit, um, to, to comprehend because found, I've gotta search for it. My passion, there's one of them, and it's out there somewhere, and once I find it, it's gonna feel great. Passion, what's that? How does that feel? You're t- you've said the word. Are we thinking of the same thing, the same for you?

Elizabeth Day 44:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:03 So many pieces of bullshit which I now have to accept. So if there was one thing that I've learned in the last couple years, it's just, like, question the question-

Elizabeth Day 44:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:11 ... as much as you possibly can 'cause the question will fuck you when you accept it.

Elizabeth Day 44:14 Oh my gosh, I could not agree more. Like, also, "passion"-

Steven Bartlett 44:18 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 44:19 ... is such an unhelpful word. It's that thing of like, "Oh, uh, did you feel, did you feel passion? Did you feel this sexual, insane sexual chemistry? Did you fall in love at first sight?" And I'm like, "Hang on a second. What you're saying there is did you feel deeply unsettled and chaotic?"

Steven Bartlett 44:34 (laughs) Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 44:34 Because

Elizabeth Day 44:35 that's what passion, it's like a disruptive force.

Steven Bartlett 44:37 Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 44:37 I'm like, "I don't want to feel, I don't want to feel unstable and chaotic. I want to feel safe-

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 44:42 ... and known." That, for me, is like true romance.

Steven Bartlett 44:46 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 44:46 And a relationship or a business is not a failure because it ends-

Steven Bartlett 44:51 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 44:51 ... again.

Steven Bartlett 44:51 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 44:51 Like, you could've learnt so much. You could've learnt what you needed to know, and therefore, you can evolve and grow.

Steven Bartlett 44:56 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 44:56 And as you say, the act of f- finding something, what if it's, like, inside y- you don't need to-

Steven Bartlett 45:01 It should be, shouldn't it? Like- (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 45:02 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 45:02 ...

Narrator 45:02 Your-

Elizabeth Day 45:02 ... something you love to do-

Steven Bartlett 45:03 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 45:03 ... should be something you love to do-

Steven Bartlett 45:04 It's, it's-

Elizabeth Day 45:05 ... without having to, like, go on this quest.

Steven Bartlett 45:06 ... become an Easter egg. Yeah, exactly.

Elizabeth Day 45:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:06 Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 45:07 But that's, what you were saying earlier about ambition being an external driver really feeds into one of the most profound things I've ever learned from doing all this stuff about failure. I met this man called Mo Gawdat, who used to be the chief business officer of Google X, but he wasn't happy. And he has a lot to say about expectation versus reality. So if we can manage our expectations of life, so if they're equal to or less than our perception of events and how they turn out, then we can be happy or contented. And he was the one who really brought it home to me that we are not our worst thoughts, that our thoughts are produced by our brain as organic matter-

Steven Bartlett 45:43 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 45:44 ... in the same way blood is pumped around our body by our heart. Like, we wouldn't think we were defined by our blood, so why would we think that we are our thoughts?

Steven Bartlett 45:53 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 45:53 But actually, as you know, the premise of all meditation is that you can observe your thoughts. Who's doing the observing? That's you. That's you. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 46:01 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 46:01 Why would you need thoughts, y- y- like, you don't need to communicate yourself, so your thoughts are just being produced by your brain constantly.

Steven Bartlett 46:09 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 46:09 And I found that really helpful, the idea that once you realize that, you can train your brain to think differently and to replace negative thoughts with positive ones-

Steven Bartlett 46:21 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 46:21 ... as much as you're able. So he gave this incredibly moving example. His son, Ali, died at the age of 21 during a routine operation, and in the aftermath of Ali's death, Mo would wake up every morning with tears streaming down his cheeks, and his first thought would be, "Ali died." And it was an unbelievably oppressive, grief-stricken thought, and after a few more weeks of it, he was like, "I just can't live like this. I can't live like this." And so he challenged his brain to come up with a different thought, and each morning, he would wake up, and he would still think, "Ali died. Ali died," and he'd still be crying, but he added something to that sentence, and he added, "Yes, but he also lived." And in that differently expressed sentiment was 21 years of memories of a father and son who were best friends, and that was what enabled him to carry on living, and if he can do that in that situation, I sure as hell can do it when someone criticizes me on Instagram.

Steven Bartlett 47:18 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 47:19 It was a really helpful lesson.

Steven Bartlett 47:22 We're never really tr- thought, sort- sort of taught to challenge our thinking, right, as you say.

Elizabeth Day 47:26 No.

Steven Bartlett 47:26 'Cause we think it's just, we think it's reality. We think it's true.

Elizabeth Day 47:31 And we're taught to think we need to use it to be good at exams, to get ahead, to get a good job. Like, that's all thought, isn't it? That's, like, the exercise-

Steven Bartlett 47:39 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 47:40 ... for your brain.

Steven Bartlett 47:41 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 47:41 And don't get me wrong. I, like, love my brain, and I'm happy that I have thoughts, but it's that thing of understanding when they're running away with themselves, when they're in control of you.

Steven Bartlett 47:53 Hard. (sighs)

Elizabeth Day 47:54 It is the exercise of a lifetime.

Steven Bartlett 47:57 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 47:57 It, like, it really is.

Steven Bartlett 47:58 Trying to rise above your own thoughts is like-

Elizabeth Day 48:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:01 Or at least analyze them. Hold them out in front of you and examine them for validity.

Elizabeth Day 48:05 I mean, you mentioned working out earlier. I definitely find exercise is a helpful way of doing that.

Steven Bartlett 48:09 Yes.

Elizabeth Day 48:09 Like, and that's something, again, I never, I never thought I was good at sport, and- and I translated that wrongly as being, like, someone who doesn't like exercise.

Steven Bartlett 48:18 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 48:18 Until my 30s, really, until I went through all this stuff, divorce, all that sort of stuff, and I needed to feel strong in myself, but that started with feeling strong in my body. And I realized that it was just an incredibly helpful way of being in my body and being out of my head.

Steven Bartlett 48:33 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 48:33 And it was just such a relief to find that. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:36 Isn't it nuts the, the way that your brain thinks while you're exercising versus when you're just-

Elizabeth Day 48:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:41 ... in the, in, in, you know, in your normal life? It's just, it's bizarre. It's like a different, different person shows up and can suddenly see clearly.

Elizabeth Day 48:49 Totally.

Steven Bartlett 48:49 Like-

Elizabeth Day 48:49 And also for me, it feels like I'm not really thinking when I'm exercised, but I am. I will have, like, processed something that has been bothering me for days.

Steven Bartlett 48:57 So fascinating. I wonder why that is. I, I bet somebody knows. Just the, like, monotony of doing a task or the, you know, whether it's a running machine or just lifting weights, for some reason-I don't know, the brain just seems to go to a different place. Most of my good ideas, if I have any, (laughs) come from, uh, come from the gym or the-

Elizabeth Day 49:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:13 ... or walking or the shower sometimes.

Elizabeth Day 49:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:15 So...

Elizabeth Day 49:16 Well, that's why people sometimes are kind enough to ask me for writing tips, like how to write. And one of the things that I say is, like, "Don't feel guilty for not actually doing the writing sometimes." Like, sometimes you literally need to take a walk and, um, be around people or be on the top deck of a top, double-decker bus and look out the window because your brain needs rest, but it also needs, like, a creative fallow period where the-

Steven Bartlett 49:43 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 49:43 ... field is left fallow and then it becomes more fertile in the future. And all of that feeds into your inspiration.

Steven Bartlett 49:49 It's so true. I, you know, people don't appreciate that. It's one of the real upsides of, of exercise. (paper rustles) They think it's to make themselves look pretty.

Elizabeth Day 49:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:56 But I think the benefit I've had to my mind through exercise is hard to put into words. (paper rustles) Maybe the only thing that I love more in the world than Huel is salted caramel. And I've got some great news. Huel have just released their salted caramel Huel flavor, and I am over the moon because I actually got to try this before it came out. And genuinely, no word of a lie, they're my favorite flavor of everything. I've got two favorite flavors, toffee and salted caramel. And to hear that Huel now do salted caramel, um, has made my dreams come true. I've

Steven Bartlett 50:29 been a Huel fanatic for the last four years as a lot of you know. It's the reason that I'm in the ship, best shape of my life. It's the reason why I have the energy I have to do this podcast and to manage the schedule that I have. And as we come into the summer months and my training schedule in the gym has started to change, it's become more important than ever that I don't miss some of the sort of basic nutritional components of my diet, like proteins and, like, amino acids. And that is where Huel fits. So yeah, thank you so much. And fuck me, salted caramel, dream come true. (paper rustles) I wanna talk about failure-

Elizabeth Day 51:04 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 51:04 ... now, (laughs) which seems like a good thing to talk about. And in your book Failosophy, you, you list, uh, seven failure principles.

Elizabeth Day 51:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:12 So I, I'm sure you've done this a million times, but I think it's a good, good place to start. So the seven failure principles.

Elizabeth Day 51:19 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 51:20 Number one, failure just is.

Elizabeth Day 51:23 Yes. So that actually just feeds in with what we were talking about, which is the idea that failure is a fact. It's inevitable. It's gonna happen to all of us. No matter how much we try to avoid it, I guarantee that it will happen. And that can feel scary, but it can also feel liberating 'cause once you've accepted it as a fact, there's no point in trying to avoid it, so you might as well take the risk. So acceptance of failure starts with the observation of it. Failure is a fact, but how you respond to it is within your control, whether you decide to feel like a failure for many years after the thing that's happened or whether you think to yourself, "Okay, well, that's taught me something, and I'll do it differently next time."

Steven Bartlett 52:03 I guess the risk there is one bad failure and people stop trying.

Elizabeth Day 52:07 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 52:08 And then I, I, I was thinking, this is very similar to confidence in the way that, like, if you have one bad failure, your performance next time you get an opportunity, if you actually don't manage to just avoid it completely, will probably be worse because of nerves and that, you know, the memory of, "I'm terrible," and-

Elizabeth Day 52:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:22 And then that's gonna increase your chances of failing again. And then the kind of, like, self-negative reinforcing cycle kind of continues, and your, your confidence and your sort of, yeah, your guts kind of cascade downwards and can, for some people, work in the other direction. Where you have a success, your confidence builds.

Elizabeth Day 52:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:39 You walk on stage to do that, you know, public speech next time around with a bit more confidence. You do a better job, which increases-

Elizabeth Day 52:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:44 ... your chance of success, and it cascades upwards. That how failure works from your experience or...

Elizabeth Day 52:49 It, it can work like that. I mean, to take the example you've just given, one of the ways of looking at that if you're then stuck in a downward cycle and you're failing and you're trying at the thing, is that you're therefore in the wrong situation. So you're in the wrong workplace, for instance, that, that isn't generous enough to, like, make you feel okay after your failures or doesn't make you feel like you can be your true self. In which case, I would argue you need to remove yourself from that situation and find the place that does suit you.

Steven Bartlett 53:14 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 53:15 Or it can be a question of mindset and a question of applying that mindset that we've just talked about, which is, "Okay, I failed. I'm feeling in a downward spiral." How much of that is fact? That's a very difficult thing to do on your own when you're at a very low ebb, and that's why I'm a huge advocate of therapy. And again, I know that I come from a privi- privileged place where I can afford therapy. But even if it starts with reaching out to your friend and talking about it, or reaching out to your work helpline and talking about it, or texting Shout, the mental health charity, or calling the Samaritans, that's a really valuable step. And the other thing that I would say there is that I'm very aware that my definition of failure, which is what happens when life doesn't go according to plan, has a fatal flaw, (laughs) which is that sometimes there are failures that are totally cataclysmic that we couldn't possibly have predicted that go against any plan whatsoever, like a global pandemic, like a terrible illness that you contract, like the death of a loved one. It would be monstrous for me to sit here and say those failures are as easily assimilated or learnt from or dealt with as failing your driving test. And so I, I'm not saying that at all. Those kind of failures will require a process of mourning and coming to terms with the thing that you've lost. And that's absolutely right and as it should be. My only thing is the way that I choose to live my life is I mourn, but I don't have to constantly relive the pain. I can still feel sadness about something, but I don't need to live in that place of reliving it constantly.

Steven Bartlett 55:02 Becoming a victim.

Elizabeth Day 55:03 Yeah. And becoming defined by that. I can choose to be defined by something else. I can choose to be defined by my response to it.I can choose to find some kind of meaning in something that was meaningless at the time, and that's how I choose to live my life, because that makes it less sad. And I, and I think that that choice is available for most of us.

Steven Bartlett 55:29 Topic of conversation that I liked having on this podcast, whereas you're alluding to there, is about, like, personal responsibility.

Elizabeth Day 55:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 55:34 And, um, you know, we all have different starts in life and different, you know, quote-unquote "advantages" and disadvantages. But, um, how important do you think personal responsibility is, even in times where something happened and it's really not your f- quote-unquote "fault"?

Elizabeth Day 55:48 Yeah. I, I think it's tremendously important. It's, uh, I want to caveat what I'm about to say by saying I'm very aware that certain people are given more opportunities to fail because of the elitist society in which we live, because of the racist society in which we live,

Elizabeth Day 56:04 bec- because of a society which marginalizes entire groups of people through no fault of their own. I'm aware that I, as a white middle-class woman, have been given shitloads of opportunities to fail. So, so I'm, I'm totally aware of that, that there's a sliding scale.

Steven Bartlett 56:18 You have to say that, right?

Elizabeth Day 56:19 Yeah. Of course I have to say that.

Steven Bartlett 56:21 Because?

Elizabeth Day 56:22 Because I don't want people to think that I haven't thought about it.

Steven Bartlett 56:26 Yeah, fine. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 56:26 And I also think that it's important to have the discussion.

Steven Bartlett 56:29 Oh, it's crazy how many caveats we've got to do before we say anything these days.

Elizabeth Day 56:32 Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 56:32 Like, I don't care that much, so I just wanna give-

Elizabeth Day 56:34 You're gonna get me into trouble. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 56:36 (laughs) Yeah. I find it, I, when I, when I sit here and I, I speak to guests and I watch them have to caveat something they're gonna say, I just find it so funny 'cause I'm like, I personally do that to some degree, but I also, I'm like, "Ugh, what're you gonna..." I don't know. It's interesting. It's interesting, 'cause this is a growing thing. Because you're right, if you hadn't have done that, someone would've ... (growls)

Elizabeth Day 56:56 Yeah, and someone would think, "Oh, well, it's all very well for her to say that."

Steven Bartlett 57:01 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 57:01 And, like, it's just, it's just a kind of acknowledgement that it's been easier for me in certain respects.

Steven Bartlett 57:07 Sure. Which is fair, and it's fair-

Elizabeth Day 57:08 And it's been hard in other ways.

Steven Bartlett 57:09 Sure.

Elizabeth Day 57:09 Like, everyone has their own lived experience, you know? Like, I'm talking from a place of, you know, I wrote a book called How To Fail, which was part-memoir, part-manifesto. Like, a memoir, by its nature, cannot be intersectional. Like, I'm speaking from my own life, and I'm bringing in voices of other people who can speak to those experiences, 'cause it would be delusional and offensive for me to try.

Steven Bartlett 57:30 Has anyone ever taken that shot at you, been like, "Well, it's easy for you to say"?

Elizabeth Day 57:33 Oh, yeah. Loads.

Steven Bartlett 57:34 How does it feel?

Elizabeth Day 57:35 Um-

Steven Bartlett 57:36 Be honest. How does it feel?

Elizabeth Day 57:39 Well, n- okay. (laughs) It did feel, before I'd done the thinking, like an attack. It did feel like, "Well, hang on a second, I have worked hard to be where I am, and actually if you only knew." Like, there are things that I never talk about or write about that will never be in the public domain, because they involve other people, okay? So I just can't, I choose not to go there. Uh, and then, and then I read more about it and talked more about it, and it's absolutely true that I have had massive advantages in my life. And that's a fact.

Steven Bartlett 58:18 Hm.

Elizabeth Day 58:18 As is the fact that I've worked hard as well. But I did have those advantages. So for me to deny that feels really wrong and actually irresponsible.

Steven Bartlett 58:28 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 58:29 And, um, now I feel like there's a certain dialogue that is had around women, where I feel women are more often challenged for talking about their personal experiences than men are. And maybe you can tell me that I'm wrong.

Steven Bartlett 58:46 No, I think you're telling the truth.

Elizabeth Day 58:48 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 58:48 I think, I would agree.

Elizabeth Day 58:49 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 58:49 I'd agree.

Elizabeth Day 58:50 And I don't like that. I don't-

Steven Bartlett 58:51 That's crazy. That's so true.

Elizabeth Day 58:53 Yeah. I-

Steven Bartlett 58:53 It's so true.

Elizabeth Day 58:54 Like, I don't like the fact that I feel as though I constantly have to say, I constantly have to show my battle scars and my wounds and my sadness in order to earn the right to a platform from which I can speak and write as a woman. Now, there are certain white middle-class privately-educated men out there who never have to do that apologizing.

Steven Bartlett 59:19 So true.

Elizabeth Day 59:19 They never have to do that caveating.

Steven Bartlett 59:21 So true. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 59:22 People are just like-

Steven Bartlett 59:22 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 59:22 "Oh, they're quirky."

Steven Bartlett 59:24 Mm. But they all say it with their, they will, like, the quote is, like, say it with your chest. They will say it with their chest. They'll talk about their success. They'll give advice.

Elizabeth Day 59:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:30 They don't caveat anything.

Elizabeth Day 59:32 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 59:32 It's like, "This is how you do it." And it's funny, because I sat here with, um, maybe shouldn't say their name.

Elizabeth Day 59:39 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 59:39 But I sat here with a young lady who's very successful.

Elizabeth Day 59:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:42 And she was educated at maybe the best university in the land.

Elizabeth Day 59:44 Grace Beverly.

Steven Bartlett 59:45 Yes. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 59:46 I heard it, I heard it. I listened to it, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:47 Yeah, and-

Elizabeth Day 59:47 And I thought she dealt with it very elegantly.

Steven Bartlett 59:49 And why has she got to deal with it elegantly?

Elizabeth Day 59:51 And, uh-

Steven Bartlett 59:52 This is, I sit here, I think, like, uh, this, the point I was trying to make to her is, like, why is that you and Grace have to, have to, like, do this, like, assault course of words and caveats? Because you will, someone will say in the comments section, "Oh, it's very easy for..." But with my male guests, no they don't do that.

Elizabeth Day 1:00:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:08 And they don't have to. And they don't get attacked.

Elizabeth Day 1:00:12 Can I ask you an off-topic personal question?

Steven Bartlett 1:00:14 Yes.

Elizabeth Day 1:00:15 About race.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:16 But on the record. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 1:00:17 On the record.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:17 Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 1:00:17 Totally on the record.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:18 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 1:00:19 So, I felt really conflicted on social media around-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:27 Black Lives Matter.

Elizabeth Day 1:00:28 ... Black Lives Matter and the horrendous, tragic-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:30 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 1:00:30 ... to my mind, illegal death of George Floyd. And I was like, but I don't, I felt like I don't need to post on Instagram that I think killing black people is bad.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:41 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 1:00:42 Like, surely that's a given.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:44 No. No, no, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Day 1:00:46 And-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:46 Silence is violence. I'm, I'm taking the piss. I'm, I'm-

Elizabeth Day 1:00:48 I know. But I do-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:50 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 1:00:50 So I would love to hear from you, like, what's my responsibility? 'Cause I did post a black square, 'cause I was like, if I don't post a black square, then that, I don't, that feels wrong to me as well. Like I kind of might be complicit.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:01 I mean, but this is just, like, this is a huge issue with society.

Elizabeth Day 1:01:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:04 Because, um, we're thinking in such binary, bullshit ways about these really complex, sensitive, systemic issues. It's in that moment ... And the reason I did this post on Instagram that went viral and, like, everyone's seen it, and I've talked about this podcast multiple times, mainly 'cause I just had on, so I've talked about it there. But...... obviously, when, uh, uh, we watch a, a, a, a black man get killed for nine minutes asking for his mum, any sound-

Elizabeth Day 1:01:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:31 ... sort of morally sound human being on planet Earth will feel a bunch of emotions. I watched it and I didn't say anything for three days 'cause I just, I just didn't wanna see that fucking clip again.

Elizabeth Day 1:01:40 No.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:41 I didn't wanna talk about it. I watched that clip and just thought, "Ugh," I felt sick to my stomach. And I was angry and I was sad. And I just didn't wanna... And then my DMs, in my DMs I've got all these DMs from people, black people going, "You've not stood with us, you fucking ba-" And I'm just thinking, "Oh, fuck off." Like-

Elizabeth Day 1:01:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:56 ... do you know what I mean? This isn't... And, and in those moments, what social media and the world will try and do, is it will try and make you, um, fit exactly into a, a camp that, that think in one way, that act in one way, that use one hashtag, that post one thing. And I will not. And I will not. And so in that moment, what I posted was defending white people, I guess, or everyone, and said, "Listen, people process things in their own ways and that's normal, obviously." Do you agree with that statement? People process especially traumatic things in their own... Everyone agrees with that sentence. And some people might be thinking, they might be reading, they might just be listening, and that's okay. And also, my last point here is, I'm gonna be black forever, for my entire life. My kids will also be, have a little bit of black in them too, maybe a quarter black, depending on who I marry. Um, and, uh, so if you actually give a shit about changing things, your response isn't a black tile. Your response would be something much more systemic. Your response might be educating yourself and your friends.

Elizabeth Day 1:02:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:56 Virtue signaling on social media, that, for me, that's a sign that you probably don't really care-

Elizabeth Day 1:03:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:01 ... if anything. And like, you can't say that unless you're black. I'm the only person that can say that. Like, n- um, not the only one.

Elizabeth Day 1:03:08 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:03:08 I mean, there's more of us. But I mean like, I'm, in my friendship group, I'm the only one that can say that.

Elizabeth Day 1:03:12 And in this room.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:13 'Cause you'd be, all of you would be finished off. Every single one of you would get finished if you said anything like that. So, and, and that, ugh, it's a sadder world we live in 'cause I know everyone in this room agrees, not one of you can say it. And that's a sad place to be where, it, this isn't a war of ideas. This is a war of, like, virtue signaling at, like, we're not... It's not a competition of the best ideas. It's a, it's a competition of, like, who is correct and who is incorrect, cancel, accept, cancel, accept.

Elizabeth Day 1:03:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:38 And man, oh, what a sad place. Can't even have a conversation without someone fucking gonna lose your job. I'm fortunately unemployed, so no one can fire me.

Elizabeth Day 1:03:45 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:03:47 And I don't really need the money either, so (laughs) like, you know what I mean? Like, the podcast sponsors, if they, if they thought I was immoral or whatever, they could pull out, but...

Elizabeth Day 1:03:54 No, I thank- thank you 'cause that's... Ugh, I think you're right. And I think compassion and nuance can't be fitted into the binary world of social media a lot of the time.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:06 Never.

Elizabeth Day 1:04:07 I'm really sorry 'cause I've completely like... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:04:10 No, no, it really, it really-

Elizabeth Day 1:04:11 Taken a detour here.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:11 Man, I just, I'm so annoyed at this. And I, the prob- the thing that annoys me more is I don't think it can be fixed. I don't know, I don't know how it can be fixed. I know the way the algorithms work, and I know that they create echo chambers where everyone thinks like you. So the minute anyone in your echo chamber is not thinking like you, uh, you, the way that they reinforce and reward your thought-

Elizabeth Day 1:04:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:32 ... using these algorithms, you're not gonna get rewarded. You're gonna get attacked. And so it's, it's fighting against, it's fighting a losing battle. At some point, I'll probably be canceled or something. I'm like pretty aware of this because I refuse to, I, I like to think in nuance. I like to think, I don't think left or right. I think usually the truth is somewhere in the middle s- often.

Elizabeth Day 1:04:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:51 More so than it is on the far left or the far right. And that is a dangerous way to think. Uh, it's, it's, it's a crime. And for me, that's a form of imprisonment, which is the, the inability to think and speak for yourself. That's a form of imprisonment in the same way putting someone in a cage. It's... And for me also, not allowing people to express themselves, we've seen the harm that does. We've seen when people can't express their sexuality, they kill themselves more. So I will, that's what I was thinking, I was like, I will not allow myself to be imprisoned, my thought to be imprisoned, and my expression to be p- imprisoned because I actually think the net impact of that is much worse than just someone, uh, someone writing some shit in the comment section about me. I'd like to be a th- free thinker.

Elizabeth Day 1:05:29 What do you think of Piers Morgan? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:05:31 Sometimes he hits, sometimes he misses. I've forgot, he's a bit of a narcissist in some ways. Sometimes he's like right, sometimes he's wrong, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't.

Elizabeth Day 1:05:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:38 He shouldn't be deplatformed. We can all scream at him, but, um, he's not ha- he's not like, he's not a racist. He's not, um, doing it, he's not like encouraging people to like h- hurt each other. He's not encouraging harm or violence. He has an opinion which some people disagree with sometimes.

Elizabeth Day 1:05:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:55 Talking about Sharon, Sharon Osbourne, she's been chucked off our show for defending Piers Morgan. And I watched the clip last night of, um, what she said, and all she goes is, you know, "What has he said that's racist?" And the, the host responds to him, "It's not what he said. He hasn't said anything racist. It's just his, you know, basically his attitude towards the situation." Oh, come on, fucking hell. Like... (sighs)

Elizabeth Day 1:06:16 But do you think... So do y- but do you think that because we've had millennia of things one way, the transitional phase is always going to have to be extreme as the pendulum swings to one, to one end and so that it can then stabilize in the center? And we're just living through an age of transition.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:37 I, I like to think that sometimes, but then I know how algorithms work, and I think that the algorithms are reinforcing our echo chambers. Every single day my algorithm is telling me if I'm right or if I'm wrong, and it's based on groupthink. It's like these pockets of groupthink. And the other thing is like, uh, just when I, I think about it logically, I think, you know, I read this quote one day and it was like, "If your opinions and beliefs almost identically resemble the people around you, then they're not your opinions and beliefs."

Elizabeth Day 1:07:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:04 And I've thought about that a lot. And I was like, "You know, this is true."

Elizabeth Day 1:07:05 That's really interesting. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:07 If we were to get, like, really deep about this...

Elizabeth Day 1:07:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:12 Most of our beliefs and opinions come from the society we live in. And you've only got to go back 5,000, 10,000 years and see the barbaric things we did that we thought were morally sound and okay, to realize that in fact our opinions and beliefs are mo- mainly given to us by society.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:27 In fact, good and bad, if you look at what we did-... a, a hundred years ago. If you look at what happened in certain parts of the world in, you know, history, those people thought they were good, and that was the right thing to do. And so, what are my opinions today? They're majority what social media and the world has told me is the correct thing to do. How moral are we if we felt completely moral when we used to, like, behead people and kill black people and chase... We thought that was-

Elizabeth Day 1:07:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:52 ... funny.

Elizabeth Day 1:07:52 Go on crusades.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:52 So, yeah, it's a lot. Um, maybe a topic for another day.

Elizabeth Day 1:07:56 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:56 What was I saying about this book?

Elizabeth Day 1:07:58 Failure. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:58 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 1:07:58 I'm so sorry. That was a wild one. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:59 Point number two of (laughs) fail philosophy. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 1:08:03 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:08:03 I, like, lost my way in this book. Let me just quickly-

Elizabeth Day 1:08:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:05 ... grab the list here as well. So point number two in your book is you are not your anxious brain. I think you've talked about that.

Elizabeth Day 1:08:11 Yes, that's a Moga and Deb point.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:12 So we'll, we'll move on. Almost everything feel, feels... They ev-... Almost everyone feels they have failed in their 20s. Interesting.

Elizabeth Day 1:08:19 I mean, not you. Okay? (laughs) So it's Steven Barla, I'm pretty sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:22 Still.

Elizabeth Day 1:08:22 Do you think you've failed in your 20s? Probably personally. Sorry to... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:08:26 Oh, multiple... No, no.

Elizabeth Day 1:08:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:27 You know, it's a good question actually. Multiple times, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 1:08:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:30 Started my first business at 18, it was clearly a failure. Left that when I was 20 years old. Failed in loads of relationships, failed every day in business. Not the big, like, momentous failures. Other than my business, like one would assert.

Elizabeth Day 1:08:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:43 But no, I've failed probably more than anybody, to be fair.

Elizabeth Day 1:08:45 I think that's-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:46 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 1:08:47 ... so great to hear.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:48 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 1:08:49 And also, I think that a lot of people struggle in their 20s, particularly in this day and age, because of the curse of comparison and because we live in a culture of curated perfection where you're constantly comparing yourself to your peers' filtered appearance on Instagram-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:03 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 1:09:03 ... and the life that they seem to be living. So we're comparing our insides with everyone else's projection of their outsides.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:09 Exactly, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 1:09:09 And for many people, although I know, uh, not you, but for many people, it's the first time that they've come out of full-time education and come out of a system of exam and reward, exam and reward.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:21 Yeah.

Elizabeth Day 1:09:22 And there's no exam that you can sit to show that you're being a good grownup, so you feel quite lost. Plus, piling on top of that, the pressure to find your passion, to like make a career for yourself, but also to earn enough to pay your rent, living in house shares, like just trying to make your way, and trying to forge your identity in this day and age, it's just so hard to do all that at once. And then you're like, "Oh, and I should be having, like, a thriving personal life, and I should either be in a long-term-"

Steven Bartlett 1:09:53 Yeah. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 1:09:53 "... relationship or having wine night stands and being footloose and fancy-free and drinking loads. And then at the weekend, making vegan brownies because I've got to watch what I eat," and all of that sort of stuff. And it's exhausting. And so really, what I wanted to say in that failure principle was that so many people come on my podcast and say that they feel they failed at their 20s. And

Elizabeth Day 1:10:12 I think a lot of us fall into the trap, and I did too, of believing that we had to have our life sorted out by then. And actually, your 20s are a decade of transition, of discovering who you are, of grinding up the spices of life in your pestle and mortar.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:26 Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Day 1:10:26 And the older you get, my experience has been the more you know yourself and the more you know what you want to do, and that's where success lies. I've had so many more opportunities after leaving my 20s behind in the rearview mirror.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:40 Wow.

Elizabeth Day 1:10:41 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:10:41 Nothing else to add. You've really thought about that. You've written a book on it, so, yeah.

Elizabeth Day 1:10:45 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:10:45 Um, number four, breakups are not a tragedy. Your ex-partner has taught you something.

Elizabeth Day 1:10:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:50 Re- I... One of the things you said, which I, which I thought was really, really powerful is that, um, a relationship ending doesn't mean that it failed.

Elizabeth Day 1:10:57 That's it in a nutshell. Uh, (clears throat) I've had countless failed relationships (laughs) and I... And they, and they... And it sucks. Like heartbreak, there is no pain like heartbreak.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:07 I hate it. (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 1:11:08 It's the worst, isn't it? It's the worst. It really... I... Yeah, I totally relate.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:12 (laughs)

Elizabeth Day 1:11:13 And I now realize that I learned something very instructive from each one of those relationships and from the fact that they ended. It taught me something that I needed to know about myself, and I realized that love that was ready for me, I didn't need to fight to convince it.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:30 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 1:11:31 Like, it would meet me where I was, and it might not come in the package that I expected, and it didn't. I, I met Justin on a Hinge date-

Steven Bartlett 1:11:38 Wow.

Elizabeth Day 1:11:38 ... that I almost didn't go on. And it doesn't, and it doesn't immediately feel like the thing that you thought you wanted because actually, that hasn't worked out for you. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:11:48 Hmm.

Elizabeth Day 1:11:49 So it's always better to make a different choice, I think. So yeah, it's just about how although relationships feel that they might be life-ending at the time, they never, never a-... They... When they end, they never, never are. And often someone has been sent to you, whether it be a friendship, a work colleague, or a lover, to teach you a lesson that you needed to know. And when a relationship ends, it's because you've been taught that lesson.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:10 God, it's a shitty lesson to learn. And also, like, the... When you go, when you go through a breakup as you've described there, um, not letting it end is part, uh, in my experience, of the reason why something new doesn't start.

Elizabeth Day 1:12:23 Yes. Oh, that's so-

Steven Bartlett 1:12:25 You know what I mean?

Elizabeth Day 1:12:25 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:25 I mean-

Elizabeth Day 1:12:25 That's what Oprah would call a teachable moment.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:27 Is it?

Elizabeth Day 1:12:28 Yeah. You need to, you need to create the space for the new thing to come in, which means leaving something behind.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:36 But I talk about a little bit, uh, before about quitting being just as, as much of a skill and an art form as starting.

Elizabeth Day 1:12:41 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:41 We glamorize starting, but there's a real talent... Not... Yeah, uh, there's a real skill to knowing how to quit, how to move forward because, you know, starting is great, but