Elizabeth Day Opens Up About Heartbreak, Miscarriage & Failure | E77

1. 0:00 – 1:56

   intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      (music plays) Elizabeth Day is a world-renowned podcast host. She's a best-selling author, she's a successful journalist.

   2. EDElizabeth Day0:05

      I felt like a failure, but I probably wasn't. It was what I'd been told to feel. I've had countless failed relationships (laughs) and it sucks. Like, heartbreak, there is no pain like heartbreak. I now realize that I learned something very instructive from each one of those relationships and from the fact that they ended. It taught me something that I needed to know about myself. Infertility and miscarriages are not a mishap. Like, for people who experience it, it's a tragedy over which they have no control, and the idea that I was exploiting it to make a full-time career out of it was so insulting because I know how fucking painful and traumatic it is to go through.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:49

      Being vulnerable, something I think we all find it incredibly hard to do. And after hearing my guest's story today, I had tears in my eyes maybe three or four times, and that's because she is willing to be vulnerable and honest and open about her truth, her trauma, and the things she's learned from her most testing times. Elizabeth Day is a world-renowned podcast host. She's a best-selling author, she's a successful journalist, honestly. She's quite frankly one of the most wonderful, smart, lovely people I've ever had the privilege of doing this podcast with. In fact, today, one of the issues I had with this podcast was we agree on so much that it's hard to play devil's advocate with her. It was hard to challenge her views because so many of them represented mine. It felt like she was reading out of my book, and I think that's powerful because she helped me build on my ideas. And some of these ideas are controversial, for some people maybe too controversial. It is remarkable how much societal expectations can cripple your chance of happiness, and I genuinely believe that if we had more people in the world like Elizabeth, who were willing to say what she says today, then maybe that wouldn't

2. 1:56 – 10:00

   How have social expectations made you feel like a failure?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:56

      be the case. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. One of the things that I wrote recently, which, um, after doing a little bit of reading about your story and your journey, really, really resonated with me, um, was this idea that- that society's expectations of how your life is supposed to be going will fuck you up.

   2. EDElizabeth Day2:29

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:29

      And when I think about, you know, you've wro- written this amazing book about- called Failosophy, about failure, I was thinking, what is... Objectively, like, what is failure? And, um, my conclusion was that failure is like a byproduct of social expectations, um, that's- and as is success. So, could you talk to me a little bit about how social expectations have made you feel like a failure?

   4. EDElizabeth Day2:55

      Of course, yeah. I realized I had to define failure after I had launched a podcast called How to Fail and after I'd written a book called How to Fail, and then I kept getting asked this very reasonable question, and I realized I'd never come up with a satisfying definition for me. So, the definition I came up with in Failosophy is that failure is what happens when life doesn't go according to plan, which totally taps into what you just asked me about. Because then you need to start to think, well, where does the plan come from? Is it genuinely my plan? Is it genuinely what will make me happy? Or is it what I've been told I should expect my life to be? Because when I looked at some of my metrics for how my life "should" be, and I put that in quotation marks, it kind of came from, like, 1980s rom-coms (laughs) -

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:43

      Mm-hmm.

   6. EDElizabeth Day3:43

      ... and- and patriarchal society and conditioning, and the idea that I'd been raised in the '80s to be a nice, pleasant, pliable girl, whereas boys were enabled to be mischievous, and that was seen as kind of cute and charming (laughs) . And, um, that led to me being an inveterate people pleaser, which I know is something that a lot of people have in this kind of industry, and it also led to me imagining that I wanted to be married and have children, and that's what I tried to do. And in my 30s, I did get married to the wrong person. I ended up getting divorced, and I tried but failed to have babies and went through various fertility treatments that were emotionally devastating in various ways, and it got to the point when I was 36, divorced, didn't have children, where I really did feel like a failure. And the reason I felt like a failure is because that's what society had conditioned me to believe of myself.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett4:38

      Mm-hmm.

   8. EDElizabeth Day4:39

      Because actually, after I'd got over the pain and the grief caused by that seminal relationship ending and by all of the IVF and coming to terms with my first miscarriage and all of that, I actually felt strong for having withstood it, and I actually felt kind of liberated too, because I had no plan for the future, and having no plan for the future can be terrifying, and it can also be this enormous opportunity to change your life and to redefine it according to who you really are once you've stripped back that pretense. So, that's one way in which I felt like a failure, but I probably wasn't. It was what I'd been told to feel.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett5:22

      So, I wanna- I wanna, like, pick around this a little bit, because I can resonate with this tremendously. In fact, that's why my book i- has the name it does, is because I was conditioned as a Black kid who was broke to believe that the thing that would make me a success was becoming this happy, sexy millionaire with a Range Rover under me-

   10. EDElizabeth Day5:37

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:37

       So, when I wrote in the front page of my diary that, you know, that's a kid from Africa, who in Africa had nothing but was, you know, my family were happy, bring that kid into a context or a con- yeah, a context-

   12. EDElizabeth Day5:48

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett5:48

       ... where the context is telling me that unless you're this, you should feel like shit. Um, that's why as a kid I was like, "Well, I need to be a happy, sexy millionaire." And to be fair, if I'd wrote something else, it would've been white, straight hair.

   14. EDElizabeth Day6:00

       Wow.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett6:00

       Right? I was r- relaxing my hair chemically from the age of about 12 till about 16, till- so my hair was straight. But I wanna- I wanna go back to this- this point about society telling you, um, what you should want...Did you ever figure out what you actually wanted?

   16. EDElizabeth Day6:18

       Such a good question. Also, thank you for sharing what you just did.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett6:22

       Yeah. It's a form of-

   18. EDElizabeth Day6:22

       Because I know that, yeah, you believe like I do that vulnerability is the source of connection, true connection, and that was really beautiful. Um, I think I have figured out who I am now, but I sit here as a 42-year-old-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett6:35

       (laughs)

   20. EDElizabeth Day6:35

       ... having only just figured that out. And the reason I figured it out is because of all of those things that went wrong, those relationships that ended, that imploded, the jobs that weren't right for me. Like, that was what prompted me to do the soul-searching. And I'm a big believer in things happening for a reason, the universe unfolding as is intended. E- even if you can't make something meaningful as and when it's happening because it's traumatic and it's devastating, I tend to believe that there will be some meaning in there in the fullness of time. There'll be something that I needed to learn. I wish sometimes I'd learnt the lessons more quickly because I believe I kept being sent the same lessons until I really, really learned the, the thing that I needed to learn.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett7:20

       (laughs) Yeah.

   22. EDElizabeth Day7:20

       But I do think now that I'm aware of who I am because I've redefined my notion of success. So, in the past, my success was not necessarily being a happy, sexy millionaire, although I wouldn't say no.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett7:37

       (laughs)

   24. EDElizabeth Day7:37

       (laughs) In the past, I had a very different contextual upbringing from yours, and I'm immensely privileged in many ways. And one of the ways in which I am privileged is that there was a lot of kind of creativity and, um, cultural discussion in my home. Like, there, I was surrounded by books. I was never taught to feel that that was odd, that I read all the time or that I wanted to be an author even though there was no one in my family who did that. So, I had those kinda conversations, and that's an e- that's an enormously wealthy way to be brought up.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett8:12

       Mm-hmm.

   26. EDElizabeth Day8:12

       And I, even though we didn't have that much money, that was very wealthy. And so, for me then, success was about doing well at school. It was doing well academically. And I realized that when I did well in an exam, I got approval. And that, for me, became a substitute for self-worth.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett8:28

       Right.

   28. EDElizabeth Day8:29

       So, for a long time, I was on this feedback loop where I was like, "If only I could just do better and do better at more things, eventually I'll feel I'm worthwhile." And I was on a hiding to nothing because actually I was outsourcing my sense of self to everyone else's opinions of me and to kind of external validation. And I've now realized, and it's taken me a long time to realize this, that my only validation that means anything can come from within and from my cornerstone relationships, so like the four or five people I love most in the world whose opinion actually means something to me. That's what it is. Now, having worked that out, how can I bring my authentic self into every area of my life? And that's why the podcast, Has Failed, and the books about failure have genuinely been such a gift to me because they've enabled me to connect with a really big audience whilst being my true self, whilst taking the risk to be vulnerable, and that, for me, is success, being my authentic self in integrated self, so like-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett9:36

       Mm-hmm.

   30. EDElizabeth Day9:36

       ... professionally, personally, and when I'm asleep. (laughs) Like, I'm-
3. 10:00 – 20:53

   Criticism

   1. SBSteven Bartlett10:00

      people who are all filtering themselves and fake, I implore like people to make their context, which, which is what-

   2. EDElizabeth Day10:05

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett10:05

      ... you've described as like four or five people, much smaller, like unfollow and mute all the toxic-

   4. EDElizabeth Day10:10

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett10:10

      ... con- people in your com- like, comparison bubble or whatever, and make it tight and healthy. That's so hard these days. Like-

   6. EDElizabeth Day10:17

      It's so hard. (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett10:17

      Do you know, like how? Like it's, I almost, I'd almost say it's, um, impossible if you're on social media platforms and following like the Kardashians or whatever. Uh, how does one, how does one do that and also stay on social media? Like, it's...

   8. EDElizabeth Day10:30

      Well, I need to ask you this.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett10:31

      Yeah.

   10. EDElizabeth Day10:31

       So I'm gonna ask you this-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett10:32

       Yeah.

   12. EDElizabeth Day10:32

       ... after I've tried to answer it because-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett10:34

       Okay.

   14. EDElizabeth Day10:34

       ... I'm, I'm s- you have to deal with it on such a massive scale, and I'm just like a micro, tiny thing in comparison. (laughs)

   15. SBSteven Bartlett10:42

       (laughs) Yeah, I don't think that's fair. (laughs)

   16. EDElizabeth Day10:43

       But the way, uh, uh, to answer that truly honestly, I'm still a h- a huge work in progress in that respect because I have the capacity to be undone by criticism. Like, I fi- I take it really, really personally.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett10:58

       Tell me how personally. Give me an example.

   18. EDElizabeth Day11:00

       So personally.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett11:00

       Give me an example.

   20. EDElizabeth Day11:01

       Okay. Um, two recent examples. One is that I went, um, a few weeks ago, I went on a lockdown walk with a friend of mine who I haven't seen for over a year. Socially distanced, it was my daily exercise that I was allowed to do with one person from another household. And I posted a picture of us socially distanced in a park on Instagram being like, "You know, this was really good for my (laughs) mental health, such an enjoyable walk." And someone commented saying, "I can't, this is so irresponsible of you to post this because hospitals are overwhelmed with COVID patients, and you're encouraging people just to like go out and about." And I was like, "Hang on a second. I w- was I..." That's where I go with it.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett11:44

       (laughs)

   22. EDElizabeth Day11:44

       I went, "Oh my God, I've done something wrong."

   23. SBSteven Bartlett11:46

       Yeah.

   24. EDElizabeth Day11:46

       "I've done something wrong." And these poor NHS doctors who are working, and I've just kicked them in the face metaphorically. And I was, and I, I had this process of like, "I've done something wrong. I'm a terrible person. I feel really bad about it. What can I do? Should I reply?" I go through that. That's the first place I go, and then I tell myself, "No, leave it 24 hours. Leave it 24 hours before you say anything." And then I just feel I have this like harness that settles around me for a day of feeling...... unsettled and a bit worried and anxious and are other people thinking that? Is there a whole group of people out there-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett12:27

       (laughs)

   26. EDElizabeth Day12:27

       ... that they're, like, meeting up behind closed doors to discuss how awful I am?

   27. SBSteven Bartlett12:31

       Like launching your council campaign, like (laughs)

   28. EDElizabeth Day12:33

       Yes. And it's ridiculous. It's one person-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett12:36

       You're not gonna be a shoulder in the house. (laughs)

   30. EDElizabeth Day12:38

       Yeah. (laughs) It's awful. And I saw other people had liked that comment. I was like, "Oh my god. They hate me too." I'm... And basically, I just have to sit with it for a bit and it helps me to talk about it even though I sound completely doolally. But I do, I'm lucky enough to have an incredible resource in my husband who is just not on social media at all, and so is a very kind of sane mind to bring to it, and my best friend who's a psychotherapist. (laughs)
4. 20:53 – 25:54

   People pleasing

   1. SBSteven Bartlett20:53

      by hearing your story.

   2. EDElizabeth Day20:53

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett20:54

      Same with the mental health.

   4. EDElizabeth Day20:55

      Mm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett20:56

      Um, conversation over the last 10 years. If people weren't speaking about it, the place we'd be in is quite terrifying to think of. And you wouldn't say those people h- have exploited it, right?

   6. EDElizabeth Day21:04

      (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett21:04

      So it's just a ... I mean, it's such a nonsense-

   8. EDElizabeth Day21:05

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett21:05

      ... thing for someone to write that I don't- actually don't wanna spend too much time talking about it.

   10. EDElizabeth Day21:08

       Thank you. (paper rustles)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett21:09

       Quick one. Starting from the minute the lockdown is lifted, we're gonna start bringing in some of our subscribers to watch how this podcast is produced behind the scenes. Means you get to meet the guests, meet myself, and see how we put all of this together. If you want that to be you, all you've gotta do, hit the subscribe button. (paper rustles) So let's talk about people pleasing.

   12. EDElizabeth Day21:27

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett21:27

       You said you're a people pleaser.

   14. EDElizabeth Day21:28

       Yes. Well, I'm a reformed people pleaser now.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett21:30

       Okay, so you used to be.

   16. EDElizabeth Day21:31

       Now I don't give a fuck what you think, Steven. (laughs)

   17. SBSteven Bartlett21:33

       Oh, here we go. Oh, shit. Okay.

   18. EDElizabeth Day21:34

       I really do. Um, yes. So I, like many women of my age, was raised in the '80s and early '90s in a culture where it was still very, very gender stereotyped. I mean, we've come so far in the last decade, I think, in understanding that. But as a result, I always thought that my worth as a person was predicated on keeping other people happy. (laughs)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett22:02

       Yeah.

   20. EDElizabeth Day22:02

       So I got into a series of long-term monogamous relationships from the age of 19 to 36. Like that- ther- the biggest gap between those relationships was like a month.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett22:13

       You're joking.

   22. EDElizabeth Day22:14

       No. Because I was like, "Who am I unless I'm making someone else happy, unless I'm being someone else's perfect partner, unless I'm- I'm trying to second guess what they might want for dinner. And it- when they ask me, like, 'Where do I want to go for lunch?' 'I don't know, where would you like to go?'" Like, that was my life. It was ridiculous and it manifested itself at work as well. I was always the person who said yes to overtime, yes to the commissions that no one else wanted, because I thought eventually I'll be rewarded. And I got a staff feature writer job at The Observer, a Sunday newspaper in the UK, when I was 29, and I was the youngest feature writer there, and so I felt really intimidated. And so part of my constantly saying yes and showing willing was to try and fit in and be accepted, and actually you just become an easily exploitable asset.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett23:06

       Mm.

   24. EDElizabeth Day23:07

       And I realized after eight years of that job that I was never going to be moved anywhere. I did ask. I asked for, like, different roles, different challenges, and the answer was always no. And it was because I was- I was doing too much where I was, like, why would they want to move me?

   25. SBSteven Bartlett23:23

       Yeah.

   26. EDElizabeth Day23:23

       I was providing them with an excellent service-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett23:26

       (laughs)

   28. EDElizabeth Day23:26

       ... where I was. I was making myself too indispensable, and I was absolutely n- refusing to complain.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett23:32

       That's what I was gonna say, you weren't gonna complain.

   30. EDElizabeth Day23:34

       Never. And never asked for a pay rise, Steven. I mean- (laughs)
5. 25:54 – 35:16

   Business communication vs relationship communication

   1. SBSteven Bartlett25:54

      to really, like, defeat in myself, which is, in, in work, I'm required to a certain type of person to succeed, which is, like, quite certain about the right approach-

   2. EDElizabeth Day26:02

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett26:02

      ... focused, hardworking. Um, a lot of things in the professional environment d- aren't actually democratic. Like, the big decisions, they, they li- you, the buck stops with you. Um, in relationships, um, communication and compromise and being more democratic in things and really trying to meet, um, someone else's needs are the im-, I guess, the attributes for success.

   4. EDElizabeth Day26:26

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett26:27

      Communication. Let's talk, talk about that. How important is it to, um, from your experiences in relationships that have, you know, gone, done well by your definition and ended by your definition, um, to communicate how you're feeling-

   6. EDElizabeth Day26:40

      (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett26:40

      ... and what your needs are?

   8. EDElizabeth Day26:41

      I, it's so important. It's everything. I'm very interested in what you just said there, so I'm gonna come back to that question you asked me. The, the fact that you have, that you believe you might need different modes of communication in business and in personal relationships.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett26:55

      Slightly different. I, and th- this is, like, super controversial because, because people will think that ... So communication is incredibly important in my professional life.

   10. EDElizabeth Day27:05

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett27:05

       It's actually the things, things like ... So in my, in my professional life, if I don't wanna do something or if I think it's a bad use of my time, I say, "No, don't, don't, don't do it. Cancel it."

   12. EDElizabeth Day27:16

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett27:16

       Whereas in my romantic life-

   14. EDElizabeth Day27:18

       You can't do that.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett27:19

       If I don't wanna do som-

   16. EDElizabeth Day27:20

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett27:20

       I don't wanna go down and walk, walk in the park, but I've gotta be like, "Fine."

   18. EDElizabeth Day27:24

       Yeah. (laughs)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett27:24

       Do you know what I mean? And, and, and I can be ... I'm su- In my pro- In my professional life, I'm a radical about how I spend my time.

   20. EDElizabeth Day27:30

       Hmm.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett27:30

       'Cause I, 'cause you get so many things calling for your time, you have to be like, "Nope, nope, nope. Cancel it. Move it. Nope, no, no." In my per- professional life, it's like, "What do you wanna do? Do you wanna cook for two hours?"

   22. EDElizabeth Day27:39

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett27:39

       Fine. You know, and in, in it, I, my brain's like, "Which of ... Is that an efficient use of time?" You know.

   24. EDElizabeth Day27:44

       So interesting because in your professional life as well, you're in a position where you need to know the answers. Someone will come to you for a decision, and you need to know.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett27:50

       Yeah.

   26. EDElizabeth Day27:50

       You need to be like a benign dictator and just be like, "Right, this, that." And, and therefore, do you think that in your personal life, you don't think it's okay to say, "I don't know." I don't know if I want to.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett28:03

       (laughs) It's just like the compromise of, like, not doing things I don't wanna do. So-

   28. EDElizabeth Day28:06

       Just don't do things you don't wanna do. This is so interesting. So my, my now partner, husband is amazing, and he's a CEO. And he said to me in the early days of our relationship, "I never do anything I don't want to do." And I was like-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett28:19

       (laughs)

   30. EDElizabeth Day28:19

       ... "Selfish."
6. 35:16 – 37:53

   I was scared of being lonely

   1. SBSteven Bartlett35:16

      them showing an action, which is actions speak louder than words-

   2. EDElizabeth Day35:19

      Hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett35:20

      ... how much they cared about helping me.

   4. EDElizabeth Day35:21

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett35:22

      And for me that's like, I'm like, "Oh God," you know?

   6. EDElizabeth Day35:24

      And also probably because you've had to be incredibly self-sufficient.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett35:28

      Yeah, (sighs) yeah.

   8. EDElizabeth Day35:28

      You are, like, a, the definition of a self-starter. You've had to rely on yourself so much that for someone else to step in and be like, "I've got this for you."

   9. SBSteven Bartlett35:38

      It means a lot, yeah.

   10. EDElizabeth Day35:38

       It must (laughs) , it's so meaningful.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett35:39

       Yeah. And you're carrying so much.

   12. EDElizabeth Day35:40

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett35:40

       So if someone comes in and says, "Oh, yeah, I'll carry one of these bags for you," it's like, "Oh, thank you."

   14. EDElizabeth Day35:43

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett35:44

       You know what I mean?

   16. EDElizabeth Day35:45

       I totally get it.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett35:46

       Interesting. One of the things you said was that you, you were, I guess, um, scared of being lonely at the end of your life.

   18. EDElizabeth Day35:53

       Oh my gosh, yes. That's my (laughs) existential fear.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett35:56

       Really?

   20. EDElizabeth Day35:56

       That and pigeons.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett35:56

       Still?

   22. EDElizabeth Day35:57

       (laughs)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett35:57

       (laughs)

   24. EDElizabeth Day35:58

       Um, do you know what?

   25. SBSteven Bartlett35:59

       Maybe after this (laughs) .

   26. EDElizabeth Day36:02

       (laughs) Interestingly, the global pandemic has been so tough and so much tougher for so many people than it has been for me in myriad ways. One of the unexpected side benefits is that I've really got comfortable with my fear of loneliness. Because overnight, my diary was totally empty, so I had no social engagements, I couldn't see friends, and it made me realize that I didn't really want to see the majority of people that I was going to see. Like, I'd said yes to social situations that I didn't really want to go to but I felt like I should and I didn't want to offend someone by not letting them down.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett36:44

       Hmm.

   28. EDElizabeth Day36:44

       That's still the people pleaser in me. Um, and having the freedom to choose who I wanted to invest time in was hugely beneficial for me.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett36:55

       Hmm.

   30. EDElizabeth Day36:55

       Because I realized actually that w-... my core, my nucleus of people is very, very small.
7. 37:53 – 44:35

   Confidence & self-worth

   1. EDElizabeth Day37:53

      um, pretend I'm confident when I don't feel it and all of that sort of stuff. And I've realized that I'm also pretty resilient when my world shrinks.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett38:04

      Hmm.

   3. EDElizabeth Day38:04

      So I think I'm gonna be okay. (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett38:06

      Fantastic news. Silver lining.

   5. EDElizabeth Day38:08

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett38:09

      Uh, on that point of confidence, it's something that people ask me about all the time-

   7. EDElizabeth Day38:12

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett38:12

      ... which is, confidence seems to be one of the great barriers of people pursuing themself-

   9. EDElizabeth Day38:18

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett38:18

       ... as you've described, pursuing their dreams, pursuing who they are. Some people will know who they think they are, but they don't have the confidence to take the leap, per se. Are you confident?

   11. EDElizabeth Day38:28

       Um, yes, in certain things. So I'm confident that I can write. (laughs)

   12. SBSteven Bartlett38:34

       Mm-hmm.

   13. EDElizabeth Day38:35

       I'm now confident that I can podcast.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett38:39

       Mm-hmm.

   15. EDElizabeth Day38:39

       That I can do a good podcast. Um...

   16. SBSteven Bartlett38:42

       You're a great talker. I was thinking this as you were speaking. I was thinking y- I was thinking, yeah, 'cause I understand why she has a really good podcast.

   17. EDElizabeth Day38:47

       Oh, thank you. (laughs)

   18. SBSteven Bartlett38:47

       You're very, you know, you're very, like, articulate, self-aware, but you're really good at, you know, talking. You know?

   19. EDElizabeth Day38:52

       Thank you.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett38:52

       It sounds like a strange thing to say to someone-

   21. EDElizabeth Day38:53

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett38:53

       ... but you know, you are.

   23. EDElizabeth Day38:54

       Well, I think I'm good at connecting with people.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett38:58

       Yeah.

   25. EDElizabeth Day38:58

       And that's something that I really cherish because that's where all the good stuff lies for me.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett39:04

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. EDElizabeth Day39:04

       Like, I love having a conversation like this on such a real level-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett39:09

       Mm-hmm.

   29. EDElizabeth Day39:10

       ... with someone and connecting.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett39:11

       Mm-hmm.
8. 44:35 – 50:29

   Interrogating our thoughts

   1. EDElizabeth Day44:35

      that's what passion, it's like a disruptive force.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett44:37

      Yeah, yeah.

   3. EDElizabeth Day44:37

      I'm like, "I don't want to feel, I don't want to feel unstable and chaotic. I want to feel safe-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett44:42

      Yeah.

   5. EDElizabeth Day44:42

      ... and known." That, for me, is like true romance.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett44:46

      Yeah.

   7. EDElizabeth Day44:46

      And a relationship or a business is not a failure because it ends-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett44:51

      Yeah.

   9. EDElizabeth Day44:51

      ... again.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett44:51

       Yeah.

   11. EDElizabeth Day44:51

       Like, you could've learnt so much. You could've learnt what you needed to know, and therefore, you can evolve and grow.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett44:56

       Yeah.

   13. EDElizabeth Day44:56

       And as you say, the act of f- finding something, what if it's, like, inside y- you don't need to-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett45:01

       It should be, shouldn't it? Like- (laughs)

   15. EDElizabeth Day45:02

       Yes.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett45:02

       ...

   17. NANarrator45:02

       Your-

   18. EDElizabeth Day45:02

       ... something you love to do-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett45:03

       Yeah.

   20. EDElizabeth Day45:03

       ... should be something you love to do-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett45:04

       It's, it's-

   22. EDElizabeth Day45:05

       ... without having to, like, go on this quest.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett45:06

       ... become an Easter egg. Yeah, exactly.

   24. EDElizabeth Day45:06

       Yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett45:06

       Yeah, yeah.

   26. EDElizabeth Day45:07

       But that's, what you were saying earlier about ambition being an external driver really feeds into one of the most profound things I've ever learned from doing all this stuff about failure. I met this man called Mo Gawdat, who used to be the chief business officer of Google X, but he wasn't happy. And he has a lot to say about expectation versus reality. So if we can manage our expectations of life, so if they're equal to or less than our perception of events and how they turn out, then we can be happy or contented. And he was the one who really brought it home to me that we are not our worst thoughts, that our thoughts are produced by our brain as organic matter-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett45:43

       Mm-hmm.

   28. EDElizabeth Day45:44

       ... in the same way blood is pumped around our body by our heart. Like, we wouldn't think we were defined by our blood, so why would we think that we are our thoughts?

   29. SBSteven Bartlett45:53

       Mm-hmm.

   30. EDElizabeth Day45:53

       But actually, as you know, the premise of all meditation is that you can observe your thoughts. Who's doing the observing? That's you. That's you. (laughs)
9. 50:29 – 56:04

   Failure

   1. SBSteven Bartlett50:29

      been a Huel fanatic for the last four years as a lot of you know. It's the reason that I'm in the ship, best shape of my life. It's the reason why I have the energy I have to do this podcast and to manage the schedule that I have. And as we come into the summer months and my training schedule in the gym has started to change, it's become more important than ever that I don't miss some of the sort of basic nutritional components of my diet, like proteins and, like, amino acids. And that is where Huel fits. So yeah, thank you so much. And fuck me, salted caramel, dream come true. (paper rustles) I wanna talk about failure-

   2. EDElizabeth Day51:04

      Yes.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett51:04

      ... now, (laughs) which seems like a good thing to talk about. And in your book Failosophy, you, you list, uh, seven failure principles.

   4. EDElizabeth Day51:11

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett51:12

      So I, I'm sure you've done this a million times, but I think it's a good, good place to start. So the seven failure principles.

   6. EDElizabeth Day51:19

      Yes.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett51:20

      Number one, failure just is.

   8. EDElizabeth Day51:23

      Yes. So that actually just feeds in with what we were talking about, which is the idea that failure is a fact. It's inevitable. It's gonna happen to all of us. No matter how much we try to avoid it, I guarantee that it will happen. And that can feel scary, but it can also feel liberating 'cause once you've accepted it as a fact, there's no point in trying to avoid it, so you might as well take the risk. So acceptance of failure starts with the observation of it. Failure is a fact, but how you respond to it is within your control, whether you decide to feel like a failure for many years after the thing that's happened or whether you think to yourself, "Okay, well, that's taught me something, and I'll do it differently next time."

   9. SBSteven Bartlett52:03

      I guess the risk there is one bad failure and people stop trying.

   10. EDElizabeth Day52:07

       Exactly.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett52:08

       And then I, I, I was thinking, this is very similar to confidence in the way that, like, if you have one bad failure, your performance next time you get an opportunity, if you actually don't manage to just avoid it completely, will probably be worse because of nerves and that, you know, the memory of, "I'm terrible," and-

   12. EDElizabeth Day52:22

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett52:22

       And then that's gonna increase your chances of failing again. And then the kind of, like, self-negative reinforcing cycle kind of continues, and your, your confidence and your sort of, yeah, your guts kind of cascade downwards and can, for some people, work in the other direction. Where you have a success, your confidence builds.

   14. EDElizabeth Day52:39

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett52:39

       You walk on stage to do that, you know, public speech next time around with a bit more confidence. You do a better job, which increases-

   16. EDElizabeth Day52:44

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett52:44

       ... your chance of success, and it cascades upwards. That how failure works from your experience or...

   18. EDElizabeth Day52:49

       It, it can work like that. I mean, to take the example you've just given, one of the ways of looking at that if you're then stuck in a downward cycle and you're failing and you're trying at the thing, is that you're therefore in the wrong situation. So you're in the wrong workplace, for instance, that, that isn't generous enough to, like, make you feel okay after your failures or doesn't make you feel like you can be your true self. In which case, I would argue you need to remove yourself from that situation and find the place that does suit you.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett53:14

       Mm-hmm.

   20. EDElizabeth Day53:15

       Or it can be a question of mindset and a question of applying that mindset that we've just talked about, which is, "Okay, I failed. I'm feeling in a downward spiral." How much of that is fact? That's a very difficult thing to do on your own when you're at a very low ebb, and that's why I'm a huge advocate of therapy. And again, I know that I come from a privi- privileged place where I can afford therapy. But even if it starts with reaching out to your friend and talking about it, or reaching out to your work helpline and talking about it, or texting Shout, the mental health charity, or calling the Samaritans, that's a really valuable step. And the other thing that I would say there is that I'm very aware that my definition of failure, which is what happens when life doesn't go according to plan, has a fatal flaw, (laughs) which is that sometimes there are failures that are totally cataclysmic that we couldn't possibly have predicted that go against any plan whatsoever, like a global pandemic, like a terrible illness that you contract, like the death of a loved one. It would be monstrous for me to sit here and say those failures are as easily assimilated or learnt from or dealt with as failing your driving test. And so I, I'm not saying that at all. Those kind of failures will require a process of mourning and coming to terms with the thing that you've lost. And that's absolutely right and as it should be. My only thing is the way that I choose to live my life is I mourn, but I don't have to constantly relive the pain. I can still feel sadness about something, but I don't need to live in that place of reliving it constantly.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett55:02

       Becoming a victim.

   22. EDElizabeth Day55:03

       Yeah. And becoming defined by that. I can choose to be defined by something else. I can choose to be defined by my response to it.I can choose to find some kind of meaning in something that was meaningless at the time, and that's how I choose to live my life, because that makes it less sad. And I, and I think that that choice is available for most of us.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett55:29

       Topic of conversation that I liked having on this podcast, whereas you're alluding to there, is about, like, personal responsibility.

   24. EDElizabeth Day55:34

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett55:34

       And, um, you know, we all have different starts in life and different, you know, quote-unquote "advantages" and disadvantages. But, um, how important do you think personal responsibility is, even in times where something happened and it's really not your f- quote-unquote "fault"?

   26. EDElizabeth Day55:48

       Yeah. I, I think it's tremendously important. It's, uh, I want to caveat what I'm about to say by saying I'm very aware that certain people are given more opportunities to fail because of the elitist society in which we live, because of the racist society in which we live,

10. 56:04 – 1:07:27

    Having to be careful about what you say online

    1. EDElizabeth Day56:04

       bec- because of a society which marginalizes entire groups of people through no fault of their own. I'm aware that I, as a white middle-class woman, have been given shitloads of opportunities to fail. So, so I'm, I'm totally aware of that, that there's a sliding scale.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett56:18

       You have to say that, right?

    3. EDElizabeth Day56:19

       Yeah. Of course I have to say that.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett56:21

       Because?

    5. EDElizabeth Day56:22

       Because I don't want people to think that I haven't thought about it.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett56:26

       Yeah, fine. (laughs)

    7. EDElizabeth Day56:26

       And I also think that it's important to have the discussion.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett56:29

       Oh, it's crazy how many caveats we've got to do before we say anything these days.

    9. EDElizabeth Day56:32

       Oh, yeah. (laughs)

    10. SBSteven Bartlett56:32

        Like, I don't care that much, so I just wanna give-

    11. EDElizabeth Day56:34

        You're gonna get me into trouble. (laughs)

    12. SBSteven Bartlett56:36

        (laughs) Yeah. I find it, I, when I, when I sit here and I, I speak to guests and I watch them have to caveat something they're gonna say, I just find it so funny 'cause I'm like, I personally do that to some degree, but I also, I'm like, "Ugh, what're you gonna..." I don't know. It's interesting. It's interesting, 'cause this is a growing thing. Because you're right, if you hadn't have done that, someone would've ... (growls)

    13. EDElizabeth Day56:56

        Yeah, and someone would think, "Oh, well, it's all very well for her to say that."

    14. SBSteven Bartlett57:01

        Yeah.

    15. EDElizabeth Day57:01

        And, like, it's just, it's just a kind of acknowledgement that it's been easier for me in certain respects.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett57:07

        Sure. Which is fair, and it's fair-

    17. EDElizabeth Day57:08

        And it's been hard in other ways.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett57:09

        Sure.

    19. EDElizabeth Day57:09

        Like, everyone has their own lived experience, you know? Like, I'm talking from a place of, you know, I wrote a book called How To Fail, which was part-memoir, part-manifesto. Like, a memoir, by its nature, cannot be intersectional. Like, I'm speaking from my own life, and I'm bringing in voices of other people who can speak to those experiences, 'cause it would be delusional and offensive for me to try.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett57:30

        Has anyone ever taken that shot at you, been like, "Well, it's easy for you to say"?

    21. EDElizabeth Day57:33

        Oh, yeah. Loads.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett57:34

        How does it feel?

    23. EDElizabeth Day57:35

        Um-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett57:36

        Be honest. How does it feel?

    25. EDElizabeth Day57:39

        Well, n- okay. (laughs) It did feel, before I'd done the thinking, like an attack. It did feel like, "Well, hang on a second, I have worked hard to be where I am, and actually if you only knew." Like, there are things that I never talk about or write about that will never be in the public domain, because they involve other people, okay? So I just can't, I choose not to go there. Uh, and then, and then I read more about it and talked more about it, and it's absolutely true that I have had massive advantages in my life. And that's a fact.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett58:18

        Hm.

    27. EDElizabeth Day58:18

        As is the fact that I've worked hard as well. But I did have those advantages. So for me to deny that feels really wrong and actually irresponsible.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett58:28

        Yeah.

    29. EDElizabeth Day58:29

        And, um, now I feel like there's a certain dialogue that is had around women, where I feel women are more often challenged for talking about their personal experiences than men are. And maybe you can tell me that I'm wrong.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett58:46

        No, I think you're telling the truth.
11. 1:07:27 – 1:10:12

    “Almost everyone feels they've failed in their 20s

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:27

       In fact, good and bad, if you look at what we did-... a, a hundred years ago. If you look at what happened in certain parts of the world in, you know, history, those people thought they were good, and that was the right thing to do. And so, what are my opinions today? They're majority what social media and the world has told me is the correct thing to do. How moral are we if we felt completely moral when we used to, like, behead people and kill black people and chase... We thought that was-

    2. EDElizabeth Day1:07:52

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:52

       ... funny.

    4. EDElizabeth Day1:07:52

       Go on crusades.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:52

       So, yeah, it's a lot. Um, maybe a topic for another day.

    6. EDElizabeth Day1:07:56

       Right.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:56

       What was I saying about this book?

    8. EDElizabeth Day1:07:58

       Failure. (laughs)

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:58

       (laughs)

    10. EDElizabeth Day1:07:58

        I'm so sorry. That was a wild one. (laughs)

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:59

        Point number two of (laughs) fail philosophy. (laughs)

    12. EDElizabeth Day1:08:03

        (laughs)

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:03

        I, like, lost my way in this book. Let me just quickly-

    14. EDElizabeth Day1:08:05

        Yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:05

        ... grab the list here as well. So point number two in your book is you are not your anxious brain. I think you've talked about that.

    16. EDElizabeth Day1:08:11

        Yes, that's a Moga and Deb point.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:12

        So we'll, we'll move on. Almost everything feel, feels... They ev-... Almost everyone feels they have failed in their 20s. Interesting.

    18. EDElizabeth Day1:08:19

        I mean, not you. Okay? (laughs) So it's Steven Barla, I'm pretty sure.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:22

        Still.

    20. EDElizabeth Day1:08:22

        Do you think you've failed in your 20s? Probably personally. Sorry to... (laughs)

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:26

        Oh, multiple... No, no.

    22. EDElizabeth Day1:08:27

        Yeah.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:27

        You know, it's a good question actually. Multiple times, yeah.

    24. EDElizabeth Day1:08:30

        Yeah.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:30

        Started my first business at 18, it was clearly a failure. Left that when I was 20 years old. Failed in loads of relationships, failed every day in business. Not the big, like, momentous failures. Other than my business, like one would assert.

    26. EDElizabeth Day1:08:43

        Yeah.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:43

        But no, I've failed probably more than anybody, to be fair.

    28. EDElizabeth Day1:08:45

        I think that's-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:46

        Yeah.

    30. EDElizabeth Day1:08:47

        ... so great to hear.
12. 1:10:12 – 1:16:11

    Heartbreak

    1. EDElizabeth Day1:10:12

       I think a lot of us fall into the trap, and I did too, of believing that we had to have our life sorted out by then. And actually, your 20s are a decade of transition, of discovering who you are, of grinding up the spices of life in your pestle and mortar.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:26

       Mm-hmm.

    3. EDElizabeth Day1:10:26

       And the older you get, my experience has been the more you know yourself and the more you know what you want to do, and that's where success lies. I've had so many more opportunities after leaving my 20s behind in the rearview mirror.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:40

       Wow.

    5. EDElizabeth Day1:10:41

       (laughs)

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:41

       Nothing else to add. You've really thought about that. You've written a book on it, so, yeah.

    7. EDElizabeth Day1:10:45

       (laughs)

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:45

       Um, number four, breakups are not a tragedy. Your ex-partner has taught you something.

    9. EDElizabeth Day1:10:50

       Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:50

        Re- I... One of the things you said, which I, which I thought was really, really powerful is that, um, a relationship ending doesn't mean that it failed.

    11. EDElizabeth Day1:10:57

        That's it in a nutshell. Uh, (clears throat) I've had countless failed relationships (laughs) and I... And they, and they... And it sucks. Like heartbreak, there is no pain like heartbreak.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:07

        I hate it. (laughs)

    13. EDElizabeth Day1:11:08

        It's the worst, isn't it? It's the worst. It really... I... Yeah, I totally relate.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:12

        (laughs)

    15. EDElizabeth Day1:11:13

        And I now realize that I learned something very instructive from each one of those relationships and from the fact that they ended. It taught me something that I needed to know about myself, and I realized that love that was ready for me, I didn't need to fight to convince it.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:30

        Hmm.

    17. EDElizabeth Day1:11:31

        Like, it would meet me where I was, and it might not come in the package that I expected, and it didn't. I, I met Justin on a Hinge date-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:38

        Wow.

    19. EDElizabeth Day1:11:38

        ... that I almost didn't go on. And it doesn't, and it doesn't immediately feel like the thing that you thought you wanted because actually, that hasn't worked out for you. (laughs)

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:48

        Hmm.

    21. EDElizabeth Day1:11:49

        So it's always better to make a different choice, I think. So yeah, it's just about how although relationships feel that they might be life-ending at the time, they never, never a-... They... When they end, they never, never are. And often someone has been sent to you, whether it be a friendship, a work colleague, or a lover, to teach you a lesson that you needed to know. And when a relationship ends, it's because you've been taught that lesson.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:10

        God, it's a shitty lesson to learn. And also, like, the... When you go, when you go through a breakup as you've described there, um, not letting it end is part, uh, in my experience, of the reason why something new doesn't start.

    23. EDElizabeth Day1:12:23

        Yes. Oh, that's so-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:25

        You know what I mean?

    25. EDElizabeth Day1:12:25

        Yes.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:25

        I mean-

    27. EDElizabeth Day1:12:25

        That's what Oprah would call a teachable moment.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:27

        Is it?

    29. EDElizabeth Day1:12:28

        Yeah. You need to, you need to create the space for the new thing to come in, which means leaving something behind.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:36

        But I talk about a little bit, uh, before about quitting being just as, as much of a skill and an art form as starting.

Episode duration: 1:30:23