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Francis Ngannou: From sand mine boy to UFC champion

Francis Ngannou recounts crossing the Sahara on a pickup truck; six failed sea attempts, a Paris car park, and the loss of his 15-month-old son.

Francis NgannouguestSteven Bartletthost
Aug 8, 20242h 7mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:13

    Intro

    1. FN

      Just getting tired, being tough was the purpose of fighting if I will end up not being able to fight for the only person that I could fight for. (instrumental music plays)

    2. SB

      (crowd cheering) Presenting Francis Ngannou! UFC Heavyweight Champion of the World!

    3. FN

      I was 13 years that I decided that I was going to be a professional fighter, but I have no money. We don't have shoes, we don't have food. There's not a gym. I have to do something for that dream, so I left Cameroon.

    4. SB

      You need to get to Spain. I was reading that people died.

    5. FN

      Oh, a lot.

    6. SB

      And you were drinking water that had dead animals.

    7. FN

      We had no choice. I attempt in the ocean, I fell six time. I tried to climb the fence, the barbed wire, it was the toughest part.

    8. SB

      Why didn't you give up?

    9. FN

      When your dream is so big, it's hard to give up, and the day that we arrive in Paris, I could start that dream to become a world champion.

    10. SB

      Francis Ngannou! Francis Ngannou! The greatest heavyweight in the world! You left the UFC because of a disagreement with Dana White. What's the truth?

    11. FN

      Easy, he didn't want to (censored) .

    12. SB

      And then you fought Anthony Joshua.

    13. FN

      Honestly, on that fight, there was a lot of unfairness.

    14. SB

      What do you mean?

    15. FN

      They have a lot of tricks.

    16. SB

      Do you think they were doing that intentionally?

    17. FN

      Yeah. It was so messy.

    18. SB

      And then life shows how cruel it's capable of being.

    19. FN

      When my boy pass away, that was the moment that I really felt like, like a failure.

    20. SB

      Have you been able to grieve? (instrumental music plays) The Diary of a CEO raffle is about to close. Anyone that subscribes to The Diary of a CEO before we hit seven million subscribers, which is probably gonna be in a couple of days time, you will be included in the raffle, and on the day we hit seven million subscribers, we are giving away a lot of money can't buy prizes to all of you. So hit the subscribe button, get in before seven million, and I'll announce the prizes and the winners in the comments below when we hit seven million subscribers. (instrumental music plays)

  2. 2:13 – 6:17

    My Childhood: Surviving on Less Than $1000 a Year

    1. SB

      Francis, we met in a hotel room in Paris.

    2. FN

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      It was me, you, Thierry Henry, and, uh, Chemi, and several other people, and, um-

    4. FN

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      ... I knew you from TV. I'd watched you fight, but I had no idea about your story, and it's funny 'cause we all went around one at a time, Thierry, me, um, and then you, and shared our early story. And when y- we came to your story, I just couldn't believe it was true.

    6. FN

      Mm.

    7. SB

      I couldn't believe it was true.

    8. FN

      Really?

    9. SB

      Of c- course. I'd never heard, and I sit here and interview people for a living. I've never in my life heard- heard a story like that, from where you started to where you ultimately ended up. And I know you've told it before to some people, but I have to start there because it, I think it creates the context of everything that you are today and the man that sits in front of me. So if you take me back to West Cameroon in 1986-

    10. FN

      Yeah.

    11. SB

      ... what would I see? What was your childhood like?

    12. FN

      Um, I think you will see two parents that are just struggling, um, making it. A dad who was a, uh, carpenter and then a mom that really didn't have a job, uh, and then at some point she, she was doing whatever she find, whether it's like selling, uh, cook some stuff and sell in the, in the trade.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. FN

      So that's- that was it-

    15. SB

      In-

    16. FN

      ... back then, back in 1986.

    17. SB

      The average person lives on $1,500 a year in West Cameroon. That's what I read.

    18. FN

      Oh, that's a lot.

    19. SB

      Oh, really?

    20. FN

      $1,500 (laughs) a year? That's a lot of money.

    21. SB

      How much money were your family living on a year?

    22. FN

      A year? Oh, definitely les- less than that. Less than 1,000, for sure.

    23. SB

      And you're in a village of about 11,000 people?

    24. FN

      Yeah. I mean, yeah, maybe back then. I think now we are over, it's over 20 or 20,000 people or 30,000 people now.

    25. SB

      I found some pictures. Take a look at these pictures. What are these different pictures? Can you describe them to me, what they are?

    26. FN

      Oh, yeah. Those are, this is me and my mom in our kitchen. Um, yeah, this was, uh, when I won the UFC title, uh, and then I, I set it there on purpose. Like, you know, I'd been sitting in this kitchen since when I was a kid, so dreaming about boxing and everything. So I get to go out there, from this kitchen, go out there, get that belt of a world champion and bring it back and set it in that same kitchen and sit in the same spot that I used to sit there and now I'm like, "At the end of the day, ev- not only everything is possible, it's not such a big deal." Y- you know?

    27. SB

      For anyone that can't see this 'cause they're listening on audio, it, with all due respect, it, it looks like there's m- the floor is mud and the walls are mud and bricks.

    28. FN

      Yeah.

    29. SB

      So it looks like a mud hut.

    30. FN

      Yes, yes. That's how, that's how we build house because it's the lesser cost to one because you make like a mud, to make, to make bricks with. It's not like a brick with sand and cement. It's just the mud.

  3. 6:17 – 12:52

    Overcoming Struggles in Rural Cameroon

    1. FN

      regardless of everything, I owe who I am today to my childhood, you know. Um, as much as I hate my childhoos- my childhood, I was so mad, so upset about it, since we didn't have the minimum then- the minimum necessity. Like, even, like, brush, uh, toothbrush, stuff like that, you know, book to go to school, even like a, uh, petrol to put in the lamp and learn, we didn't have sometime. Sometime, like you see the fire there, right, on the picture?

    2. SB

      Yeah.

    3. FN

      The fire where we are cooking on the wood? Sometime you're going to take your book there and read it like this, like...

    4. SB

      So, this is just a fire you've made with a bunch of wood and some rocks, and you would go and read by the- f- that fire, so you could see your book?

    5. FN

      Yeah. We cook. Uh, they put some food on top of a, uh, the- the bricks or the stone there to cook, and then meanwhile you're using the fire, the flame, to- to light up and read your book sometime.

    6. SB

      What made your childhood so unhappy though? What was it, other than the po-

    7. FN

      The diff-

    8. SB

      ... the poverty?

    9. FN

      ... the difficulty, the challenge of everything. Uh, as I said, like, we miss everything. Uh, most of the time, we- uh, a lot of time, we will be walking barefoot because we don't have shoes. Uh, or we will be, like, uh, fixing shoes in 10- in thousand ways, you know, to still have shoes. Our pants will be having holes all over, uh, and we will still trying to do. We will go to school, be embarrassed, because, uh, maybe sometime we don't have a pen or pencil or notebook or haven't paid scholar fee, and they're going to, um, kick us out from the classroom. So, all that stuff was embarrassing. Not to mention, like when come a- a break time, you don't have something to eat, uh, unlike your, um, peers, the other kids, you know. You just around on your own. So, it was a lot of thing. Everything, uh, was a challenge. And that's why, like, when sometime I'm like, I- you people that have been very comfortable, never been in the struggle, them like, "Oh, money doesn't make happiness. Money..." Blah, blah, blah. I'm like, "Give me the money, and then keep the happiness." (laughs)

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. FN

      Because I have been without money, and I know what it feels like all day long. I prefer being with money. (laughs)

    12. SB

      You're really describing the comparison that causes the unhappiness between yourself, your family, who you guys were, and the other kids.

    13. FN

      Yes, absolutely. I mean, how many time do I get sick and didn't have a pill? Couldn't even go to the hospital. We couldn't even have a pill from around, uh, uh, the street.

    14. SB

      A pill?

    15. FN

      May- Yeah. And then you're just home sick like this, hoping, having some prayers, maybe luckily sometime go in the bush and find some, um, remedy, uh, to cook and hopefully that it works. But you can't afford.

    16. SB

      What were you eating during that time when you didn't have the money?

    17. FN

      We would farm, um, corn, beans, peanut, uh, stuff like that, yam, uh, cassava, um, veggies, stuff like that.

    18. SB

      Is there a moment you look back on your childhood and think, "That was the worst moment for me growing up"? Just a memory or something that happened that you thought, "This was really the- the bottom for me"?

    19. FN

      I would not say the bottom. I mean, regardless of everything, I think, um, I was lucky and, uh, I think I was gifted to be able to handle a- that a proper way, you know. Uh, when I look at it today, I'm impressed of the way that I handle it. And, uh, even without knowing where that w- would lead me, where I was going with that, I just handle it, like find a way out. But I never, like, feel like in, uh, a bottom, you know. In fact, like, one of m- my biggest motivation came out of that situation. Like, uh, I was around 13 years old, and it was someday around 3:00 PM. They kicked me out of the classroom one more time. And I think that day I was pissed. I was very pissed, like almost crying, like, "Okay, what the hell is this?" Like, "What do I do to des- to deserve this?" Like, "Why is this so unfair," you know? Uh, and then the look of the other kids on me, I didn't stand that either, you know. Then therefore I- uh, it was now a challenge. I promised myself that I'm gonna change that. I'm gonna prove them it's not my fault. I was just a child, just as them, uh, which doesn't have the same opportunity as them, just who couldn't have a parent that can provide for them. But in fact, the minimum that I had, which wasn't enough, was, um, something that I worked for, I earned. I know the value of it. And even though you have mo- they have more than me, they didn't earn it, you know. They- they- they gave it to them, but they didn't earn it. I started wo- I started to work in the san- sand quarry. I was, uh, nine years old. So...

    20. SB

      Which was a sand mine.

    21. FN

      Yeah, sand mine.

    22. SB

      And what were you doing? You're- you're using a shovel to pick up sand and put it in piles?

    23. FN

      Yeah, pick up sand or dig- dig sand, you know, on the mountain. Um, so I mean, I knew that. I get to realize that even though I have less, I work...... for those less, and I work hard for though, that. And even though they have more, they don't really know the value of what they have. So in fact, I'm not beneath them. In fact, I'm quite superior in some way.

    24. SB

      Why were you kicked out of the classroom that day-

    25. FN

      Uh...

    26. SB

      ... when you were 13?

    27. FN

      It was... I think it was, uh, scholarship. That, that exact same day I think was scholarship, uh, the fee, the scholar fee.

    28. SB

      Oh, okay. So you were kicked out of-

    29. FN

      Yeah, the scholar-

    30. SB

      ... school because you didn't have the money.

  4. 12:52 – 14:39

    My Dream of Becoming a Professional Boxer

    1. FN

      and now I'm like, "This is going to change." And, um... But the problem now, um, I was in the situation (clears throat) that I needed to do more than others to, to be noticed. You know? I was... I wanted to prove them that there's no... The, the perception that they have on, of, on m- of me is not who I am. I'm better than that. And, uh... Yeah. (sighs) So I was 13 years. And that's the day that I decided that I was going to be a professional fighter, professional boxer. It was the day that I really decide... Growing up, I want, like, karate. I want this, I want that. But I get to the point that I want something that not only will be my passion, but at the same time will provide for me and help me to provide for my family as well. And then I come across like, okay, boxing, combat sport is the thing to do. But problem, I'm 13 years old, there's not, um, (clears throat) there's not a gym in, um, 50 kilo- uh, 50 miles, uh, radius. And, uh, I haven't s- I never see a gym. You know, I never saw a gym before then. And even after that time, I think I stayed in the village until I was 22, was the moment that I'm like, "Okay, enough is enough. I can't just be dreaming. I have to take action. I have to do something for that dream." Then I leave the village, I move to the city, I move to some place that I don't know, and then just, like, sell everything that I have to start boxing. And I was 22 at that time.

  5. 14:39 – 17:07

    Choosing a Different Path Than My Father

    1. FN

    2. SB

      I've heard you say as well about your father, "My whole life, my father was the example for me of what not to do."

    3. FN

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      "I think that's the best thing that ever happened to me, because if my dad wasn't what he was, I could have been what he was. But I still love him a lot."

    5. FN

      Yeah. Because, (clears throat) again, like, from my perspective, um, he is the person that affected my life the most. He was violent, and then I happened... But he wasn't capable of, uh, canalizing his energy, his strength, or know how to use it. Then maybe if they have a argument or something, usually at time people was fighting a lot, but he was stronger, so he basically end up beating other people. So, makes the p- them the victim and him the guilty, right? So, and then he has a reputation, because when you get in so many fight, uh, in the, in the hood, and you, and you're winning any fight, so you're just a bad guy. You know? So he has that reputation, uh, from people don't really like his behavior. And then, uh, that's something that I understand really quick, and then will ha- affect me. I didn't wanna have that reputation. Although I like everything, uh, that related with power. I was very into it. But I'm like, "No, no way they are talking to me about my dad." Basically, like, the divorce, I was six years old, so I started go live with my aunts and this. And everywhere they would be like, "Yes, you just... Yeah. He's doing as like his father. He must be like his father." Stuff like that. And it pisses me off, like, so bad. Like, I didn't wanna be... have that reputation, even though I like everything with strength, power, fighting, you know. Then that's how, like, I ended up finding those boxing, combat sport stuff. It was the right thing to do, because there was rules, uh, there was rules, it was organized, and everything was right to do, and you, you wouldn't affect your reputation. When you get into a boxing match, match or karate fight, you win, you're a winner. They celebrate you.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. FN

      They don't blame you from beating somebody.

  6. 17:07 – 17:51

    Growing Up with a Violent Father

    1. FN

    2. SB

      (laughs) He was a violent man outside of the home, but also inside the home.

    3. FN

      (inhales) Yeah, little bit.

    4. SB

      To you and your mother.

    5. FN

      We would get some... We would get some spanking. I mean, in Africa, uh, at that time, that kind of, uh, thing was happening a lot into a lot of families. So, he wasn't something... Nowadays things are a little different, but he wasn't something that was very different, you know? Just so, he was kind of like straight, straight guy. Yeah.

    6. SB

      Was he violent towards your mother?

    7. FN

      Uh, sometimes. Sometime it could happen.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm. He passed away when you were 15 years old.

    9. FN

      Yeah. He did.

  7. 17:51 – 19:37

    Coping with My Father's Death at 15

    1. SB

      How, how did that impact you at 15 when he passed away?

    2. FN

      Uh... You know, he wasn't, um... He wasn't a big part of my life at that, that time, um-... but, yeah, you get affect-- you think about, like, your dad and the fact that you will never see him again, you know, time to time for months. You think, and I'm like, "Man, so this is it?" And yeah, he affected you a lot. I mean, you're hurt, but just have to keep rolling.

    3. SB

      When he passed away, he couldn't afford to go to the hospital.

    4. FN

      Yeah. He was sick. He was at home for months, sick. Uh, he'd just stay in bed. Uh, couldn't even go, uh, out to the toilet on his own, anything. He has one leg that was get- uh, rotten, and was just there like that until he die. And that was something that I look at it, and I'm like, "Man, I think I need to do something. I need to take action because this kind of thing might happen, uh, again in the future or in my- to my mom or to somebody close, and I won't be- I will be powerless." And, uh, no, it doesn't have to be like this, you know? So that was one of the reason, like, just being sick, be at home until die. Maybe we could've saved him if we had money. Maybe he could've still be alive if he could've go to the hospital. But nobody knows, and nobody will ever know.

  8. 19:37 – 24:02

    Wishing for One More Day with My Dad

    1. SB

      "A couple of years after, I was looking at my mum, and I asked myself if she ever got sick, what would I do? And it scared the hell out of me. At that point, I knew I had to do something to at least be able to provide her some decent healthcare. I always wonder what it would be like if my dad was still alive today. I wish I can have him in my life today, even just for a day."

    2. FN

      Yeah. Well, uh, after my dad, uh, passed away, and then I think that was also a shock of our situation. I realized, I mean, I was 15, uh, by that time, I know that our situation wasn't good. We weren't living in a good condition, but that was like a eye-opening, like, okay, this how bad it is. He didn't go to the hospital for months. I was going there time to time, and he was suffering, in pain and everything, and he didn't go to the hospital. And, uh, even when he passed away, I could've- I keep having nightmares of seeing him, like, in pain, screaming at night, stuff like that. And I'm like, "This is not happening again, bro." Like, it was tough, right? So, um, now that was not only like I was thinking that, uh, when I grow up, I will have a family and I will want to provide them, uh, provide to them and then get them in a good situation, in a better condition. But that was like, okay, this something that can happen again, what would you do? It could be, yes, it could be your mom, it could be one of your siblings, or it could some day be your own kids. What will you do? Like just sit there and... No, I need to do something. So that's what- I, I took actions, you know? And then, uh, yeah, in the other hands, seeing where we were when my dad passed away, I always wonder, like, what would he be like if he was around? If he could turn around and see us, what would he say, like, how would he feel? I mean, it's always, uh... And I miss those moment that I, I replicate, uh, our family a lot, you know. Growing up we never have to eat in the dining table like this. We didn't have a dining table. Um, but, uh, for the past year, I've been replicating that. Like, I will have, we have nice house with table, dining tables, and sometimes I will get there and then regroup everybody in the table. And then even though I don't speak, I look at that table and know that somebody's missing. There's one person missing, you know? What could it be? The, to, to, to make that a perfect table. You know? Even though it's quite, uh, enjoyful to be with those who are there, it's still like a blessing to have them, um, but it's just sad not to have one person there.

    3. SB

      You start dreaming, at that very young age, you start dreaming of a different life. And I was reading that you were pretty obsessed with America. You were signing your signature San Francisco.

    4. FN

      Not like obsessed, I love America. I always love America, like since... I, I, uh, I name myself American Boy.

    5. SB

      (laughs)

    6. FN

      I name- I give myself a nickname of American Boy.

    7. SB

      When you were young?

    8. FN

      Yeah, like kids around would call, would call me A- American Boy because I tell them that's my name.

    9. SB

      And at 17 you said that you left that small town. Is it called Beti?

    10. FN

      Batie, yes, the village.

    11. SB

      Batie. Uh, that's the village that you left?

    12. FN

      Yeah.

    13. SB

      And you, um, you moved to a different town?

    14. FN

      Mm-hmm.

    15. SB

      You went to Cameroon's largest city where you started boxing.

    16. FN

      City, yes. Douala.

    17. SB

      Why did you leave?

    18. FN

      It wasn't at 17. At 17, I left sc- uh, I abandoned school because I couldn't continue.

    19. SB

      Ah, okay. So you left school at 17.

    20. FN

      It was at 22.

    21. SB

      Okay, so 22 you decided you wanted to-

    22. FN

      Yes.

    23. SB

      ... move, move city?

    24. FN

      Yeah.

    25. SB

      Had you ever been to a gym before, before then?

    26. FN

      No. No.

    27. SB

      When was the first age you went to a gym?

    28. FN

      Uh, a boxing gym?

    29. SB

      Yeah.

    30. FN

      Kind of.

  9. 24:02 – 25:10

    The Struggles Of Chasing My Boxing Dream

    1. FN

      22.

    2. SB

      22?

    3. FN

      Yeah. When I left the village to go find one.

    4. SB

      Um, why did you end up leaving Cameroon? And what age was it when you left Cameroon?

    5. FN

      I left Cameroon, I was around, um...I was 26, around 26 when I left Cameroon.

    6. SB

      Why did you leave?

    7. FN

      Well, I knew that I couldn't make it there, uh, as a boxer, because I started boxing and I know the reality there, I know the true- even before I started boxing, I, I knew the reality. I knew that, uh, it can happen there. You know? I need a big stage, I need somewhere that, um, there is more boxing is well-develop. Uh-

    8. SB

      Where did you wanna go?

    9. FN

      First, it was always America. But, uh, from Cameroon, there wasn't a way to come to America. I wasn't going to swim to the at- uh, Atlantic Ocean.

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. FN

      (laughs) So the easiest way, the more paved way was to go to Europe.

  10. 25:10 – 28:21

    The INSANE Journey to Reach Europe

    1. FN

    2. SB

      So April the 3rd, you're 25, 26 years old. Um, 2012, which doesn't feel like it was that long ago. 2012 is when I left-

    3. FN

      Yeah. It was 2012.

    4. SB

      Yeah. That's when I left sc- that's when I left my secondary school. And at that time you were leaving Cameroon?

    5. FN

      Yes.

    6. SB

      And your objective was you were gonna try and get to S- to Spain or get to Europe?

    7. FN

      Yes.

    8. SB

      So you were gonna walk from Cameroon to Europe?

    9. FN

      Uh, it wasn't work. I mean, from Cameroon, uh, I was in Douala. I took a bus to Yaoundé, then I took a train to, the train to North Cameroon. And then we took like a, we started take like a, um, um, how do they call? Clando?

    10. SB

      Like a lorry?

    11. FN

      No. No. No. Small car.

    12. SB

      Oh.

    13. FN

      That, you know, they know how to avoid police, uh, uh, station and all those stuff on the road. So that's how we get from Cameroon, North Cameroon, to Yola in Nigeria, and then Yola to Kano, and then Kano, Niger, and...

    14. SB

      So you traveled from Cameroon, to Nigeria, to Niger, to Algeria-

    15. FN

      To Morocco.

    16. SB

      ... uh, to Morocco.

    17. FN

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      And then how did you get through the Sahara Desert?

    19. FN

      Uh, he wa- we, we were lucky. Uh, our group didn't have so much of a trouble, um, even though it was 25 of us in the back of a pickup truck.

    20. SB

      (laughs)

    21. FN

      Yeah. But, uh, we made it. The truck didn't broke up. Uh, we get it all there safe.

    22. SB

      People die going across-

    23. FN

      Oh, yeah. People-

    24. SB

      ... the Sahara Desert.

    25. FN

      Oh, a lot. Like, uh, all the way you will see, like, skelet around.

    26. SB

      Skeletons?

    27. FN

      Skeletons in the desert. And just look other way, other way, like, "No."

    28. SB

      You'd see skeletons and look away?

    29. FN

      Yeah.

    30. SB

      How, how do you afford? Where does the money come from to get... go on this journey to get out of Cameroon and to try and get to Europe? 'Cause it must cost money.

  11. 28:21 – 32:27

    How We Survived the Sahara Desert!

    1. FN

    2. SB

      What is the... You say it so casually, but what is the reality of that, of that journey? You know, y- I was reading that you were drinking, at times drinking water that had dead a- dead animals inside the water.

    3. FN

      Yeah. When we first crossed the desert, uh, we get to South, uh, Algeria-

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. FN

      ... um, in Tamaraset, we found a water well, and it was almost dry, and there was a little water that was there for, I think for months. There was dead animal and all the, uh, leaves, everything was inside the water. But, um, we were so dehydrated because our water in, finished in the desert, like, hours ago. So at time, the water didn't look good at all. It was pretty bad. But I think, uh, the philosophy right here was like, "Okay, whether I drink the water, and if it has to kill me, it kill me later, or I just die now by dehydration." I think when that's the only two choice, it's easy to choose one. (laughs)

    6. SB

      (laughs) That's true.

    7. FN

      Die now or die little later. (laughs)

    8. SB

      (laughs) What does all of this, this experience do to you as a man in terms of your re- your resilience and attitude towards life? You probably don't even know because you just are the way that you are, but you must see that you're different from other people in the Western world.

    9. FN

      I think, in general, in Africa, we are quite different, uh, to, um, the Western world. Um, we have more... Not that in the Western world people don't have hardship, but we have mostly, most of us, we have hardship and toughest one for the most part, you know. Um, like, because in the Western world, you will not see... It's, it's not very often that you will see kid that have, have experiment, uh, famine.... you know, like, uh, going to, to sleep without eating or something. I think the sist- uh, the, it's the West is more designed to stay away of those kind of trouble. You might not have home, but you can still have something to eat. But in Africa, um, most people, they will not even have that. And then, um, the good thing, I th- and I think the different that I found so far is that in Africa, you know from your early age that you are not counting on nobody. You are not expecting anything from anybody. It's all on you. And as long as you get that, the rest of your life get better. (laughs)

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. FN

      Because you go out there and figure it out. But you go in a lot of Western country, and then even though coming from where you come from, uh, you see that there's a lot of opportunity, and people are still there sitting complaining, "We don't have this. This should be like that. It should be like that." You'll be like, "Man, this is, like, more than all what I need." You know? Because I- you're at the point that you don't need- you don't just need what can be given to you. What will be given to you is just a way, is, uh, a ... what could be given to you is just a way for you to, uh, s- a bridge to help you get where you're going because you have set, um, your goal way beyond what you, you can get.

    12. SB

      You ... How long does it take you to get across the Sahara desert?

    13. FN

      Across the Sahara desert itself, it took, uh, one day. We didn't-

    14. SB

      One day.

    15. FN

      ... stay. Well, a- our c- uh, again, we were lucky. Our car didn't broke up, so they drove for about, I think, 20 or 22 hours.

  12. 32:27 – 34:39

    The Hardest Part of My Journey

    1. FN

    2. SB

      And eventually you get to Morocco. And-

    3. FN

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... Morocco, from Morocco, you need to get to Spain, which is difficult.

    5. FN

      That was the toughest part. I spent almost one year in Morocco.

    6. SB

      Trying to get to Spain?

    7. FN

      Yeah, trying to get to Spain. I did a lot of attempt, uh, in the, in the water, and also in the, in the fences.

    8. SB

      When you were living in Morocco, where were you staying?

    9. FN

      (laughs) Wherever you find, in the desert, uh, in the forest. Uh, or w- i- it depend on, like, what you're looking for, you know. For example, if you wanna go to the fence, try the fence to, uh, escalate the fence, um, which is in Melilla for the most part, then you have to stay in the forest of Gorgon. It's like living in the forest between trees, you know, and then you hunt.

    10. SB

      What are you eating?

    11. FN

      What you eating? Everything that you find. Sometime, uh, there are people that can make trap and tr- uh, get some animals. But, uh, for the most part, we will wait nighttime to go to the market, uh, because the police is always around, you know, the undercover police. We will wait, uh, for the night, for nighttime, go to the market, go to the market trash, and then find, like, uh, rotten, rotten stuff like that they throw away, whether it's tomato, potatoes, um, chicken legs, because they didn't eat chicken legs. It was the best thing for us. So we will find stuff like that in the trash and go back in the forest and try to make a meal- (laughs)

    12. SB

      How were you-

    13. FN

      ... when we don't have money.

    14. SB

      Were you try- at that time, were you trying to figure out, learn how to get to Europe? Were you trying to learn the best way? Because I can't imagine ... Or did someone tell you how to get to Europe?

    15. FN

      There is a lot of people there that is trying to do the same thing. It's not just you. You left your house by yourself. But, uh, by the time you get to some point, you start meet people that are in the same journey. And by the time you get in Morocco, there is a lot, hundreds of people.

    16. SB

      Are

  13. 34:39 – 36:33

    Waiting to Cross the Border

    1. SB

      you training at the time? Are you trying to stay fit?

    2. FN

      Yeah, sometime in the forest. I mean, you have nothing to do. You will do push-up, you will do some abs. But o- otherwise, what would you do?

    3. SB

      And you were still dreaming of being a boxer, even though you were in a forest.

    4. FN

      Oh, yes, that was, that was the thing. I mean, that was my motivation. I think if he wasn't about that, I wouldn't have left my country. It was just about that. I didn't, I never thought about anything else. So that was the reason why I left.

    5. SB

      H- how d'you, how did you know you'd be good at it? Because-

    6. FN

      I didn't know. But he was about to find out. I didn't know at all. I had no idea. I, I could've be very bad. I could've be good. So he was just about to give it a try. And if he doesn't work, then at least I try. You know, I think is the, is the most important thing, is to try and give it all. And if he doesn't work, then well, we reset. (laughs)

    7. SB

      You ... There's two ways to get to Spain. You can go over the wall, or you can go across the water, through the sea.

    8. FN

      Yeah. And across the water could be very...

    9. SB

      Dangerous.

    10. FN

      Dangerous and difficult sometime. I try couple times.

    11. SB

      Did you try the wall?

    12. FN

      Yeah.

    13. SB

      The barbed wire?

    14. FN

      Yeah, I tried the barb- ... I have a lot of scar on me, a lot of, uh, barbed wire scars on me.

    15. SB

      Really?

    16. FN

      Like, those are barbed wires. Those, you see my fingers?

    17. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    18. FN

      It split my finger in two. Like, on my skin, you will find on my st- stomach here, on my feet, I feel- I try. I have a lot of that.... um, are trying to item in the ocean, like, uh, six, a fair six time.

  14. 36:33 – 41:55

    Two Ways Out: Swimming the Ocean or Climbing the Barbed Wire Fence

    1. FN

    2. SB

      What happens when you, you try and go over the barbed wire fence? Is it... Do they catch you?

    3. FN

      Um, well, the p- the spot that we picked, because it's about, like, 12 or 14 miles of fence with barbed wire. So, we will have, like, a outlook guy that will go, walk around all the f- those, uh, fence-

    4. SB

      Okay.

    5. FN

      ... and then, like, trying to identify a spot that there is not too much barbed wire, or that the barbed wire has fail, you know. Uh, and when there is not a lot guard. Because there is guard on the Moroccan side.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. FN

      And there is guard on the Spain side. And some way, there is, like, three fences, and then barbed wires on, like, maybe the first one or the, uh, two. Uh, y- there is not a chance that... Unless you can fly, you cannot go there.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. FN

      And it's, like, seven meter high.

    10. SB

      Seven meters high?

    11. FN

      Seven meters high. So e- it's, it's not possible with barbed wires. Without barbed wires, yeah, that's good. But... And then, they clean the, uh, surrounded of the, uh, f- of fences. So the guy have to stay, like, far from the distance to try to identify if there is a, b- uh, a failure of barbed wire somewhere. You know? So it's very difficult. And, uh, on... There is a, uh, a police, uh, a Moroccan... On the Moroccan side, there is, like, a boxes of, um, uh, guard.

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. FN

      In, like, a interval, I don't know, maybe, 20 meter.

    14. SB

      Every 20 meters, there's a guard?

    15. FN

      Yeah, 20, 30 meter, there is a, uh, boxes of guard. Sometimes some boxes can be empty. But from where we are, you don't see. You need somebody to go there, like, a week every time, read everything, monitor the, um, um, uh, all the information, you know, like, the, the post, the, the guard, how they're being, um...

    16. SB

      The schedule?

    17. FN

      Yeah, how they're being changed. Because it's permanent, but one person doesn't stay there 24 hours. You know, I think it's, like, eight hours. So, you know, he have... When he's spotted a spot that there's not too much barbed wire, then he will be like, okay, there is a outlook very far there, there is a outlook from the Spain side very far. And then these boxes, is there guard inside? He might take him days to just find if... find out if those boxes have guard. Someday is gonna go by and then, like, wait. Uh, they can stay th- uh, in the same spot for, like, two days just to wait. And then when the truck come, uh, comes to, uh, change, uh, shift-

    18. SB

      For the guards to change shift.

    19. FN

      Yeah, for the gov- guard to change shift. And then he will see which, uh, box has the guard and which box doesn't have, and then what time they come and this, what time they go... if they pray, what time they go to pray. And he m- he... You need all those information before prepare a attack.

    20. SB

      And you prep- eventually you prepared an attack for the fence?

    21. FN

      Yeah. And sometime you prepare the attack, uh, you see all those, you collect all those information. Then as you are getting closer to the fence, you realize that there was a barbed wire. You couldn't just see from where you were at.

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. FN

      You know?

    24. SB

      It's-

    25. FN

      Or that maybe there is someone that is in the floor. They dig, like, five meter long like this, wide, and then they throw barbed wires all the way. Then you p- you ran, you ran by, uh, maybe 30 meter, uh, or 100 meter, meter. They can see you coming. They know that you are coming. Now you are taking advantage on, like... because you are in a group of a people. And then you get closer, and then you find, like, five meter barbed wire. You can't jump five meter. It's not possible.

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. FN

      You know? So whether-

    28. SB

      So what'd you do? You run back?

    29. FN

      ... well, you run back or some... By the time you run back, sis- uh, if it's a group of you, some people will fall in the barbed wire because they didn't see, or maybe you are in the front line, you see, but you can't go back because there are people en masse behind you coming. They probably-

    30. SB

      Pushing.

  15. 41:55 – 48:42

    Six Attempts to Cross the Sea in a Dinghy

    1. SB

      you eventually decide that you wanna go via the sea in a boat. You're gonna try and take a small little dinghy-

    2. FN

      Yeah, that was, that was, um... I mean, even before I tried the barbed wire, the first thing that I tried, it was a boat.

    3. SB

      And why did that not work?

    4. FN

      I mean, it's not like the boat is a, uh, small inflatable boat that y- you can use in your swimming pool, stuff that they use in the swimming pool.

    5. SB

      We call it a dinghy. You could put it in a swimming pool.

    6. FN

      Y- you, you get it in Walmart.

    7. SB

      In Walmart. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's a... You tried to cross from Morocco to Spain in one of these small inflatable boats. Um, you couldn't swim.

    8. FN

      ... nah, I don't know how to swim. But guess what? I ended up being a captain.

    9. SB

      (laughs) Captain of the what?

    10. FN

      Of the boat.

    11. SB

      (laughs)

    12. FN

      Because you still need a captain. You still need somebody to organize, somebody that knows how to paddle, somebody know where we are going, somebody know how to organize, like, for 10 people to get in the same boat from, uh, going from the ground to the ocean, and then, like, how do they- they get... All those organization. And then I, I practiced. I did it so many times that I become, I became an expert.

    13. SB

      (laughing) So you tri-

    14. FN

      And I still don't know how to swim.

    15. SB

      You tried six times-

    16. FN

      Yeah.

    17. SB

      ... to get across.

    18. FN

      Mm-hmm.

    19. SB

      What happened in those six times?

    20. FN

      Uh, sometime we get caught. The majority of time, we get caught.

    21. SB

      And what does that, what happens if you get caught?

    22. FN

      They send you back to the desert.

    23. SB

      They send you back to the desert?

    24. FN

      Yeah, to the desert. Uh-

    25. SB

      Not to Morocco?

    26. FN

      No. You are in Morocco. You get caught by the Morocco guard.

    27. SB

      Yeah, but then they just bring you back to the city or something?

    28. FN

      No. Because, um, they are being financed to protect, uh, people fr- uh, from the Euro border. They are being financed, uh, by European Union or something like that, from holding you guys down there. So every time that they, uh, c- catch somebody, they make a report of that person, uh, that, "Okay, we catch somebody, and then we send them back out of Morocco." They will just bring you to the- to Algeria border in the desert and throw you guy there, and you figure out your way.

    29. SB

      So they threw you back in the desert without food every time you got caught?

    30. FN

      Yeah.

  16. 48:42 – 50:36

    Months of Survival in the Forest

    1. FN

      he was that, I tell myself that the day that I'm touching the ocean again, I'm not coming back, ever. I don't know exactly what I was willing to do, but I'm like, "It's not happening." This is it. You know, my frustration was top to the level. So we're, uh, we, um, regroup back in the forest, trying those fence- trying fences or just stay there during the winter because the water, I mean, yes, you can try some crazy stuff, but only when you see that there is an ounce of a chance. But when you look at the oceans, the big mons- mon- monster rising up with those waves, you know that you cannot go through, there is no way.

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. FN

      No, you can't do that. (laughs) You can try.

    4. SB

      Not on a small boat. On a s- on a small, inflatable boat.

    5. FN

      And then it's cold, it's freezing. So I think what was, uh, even scary the most was the cold. You will just get frozen out there, you know? So I stayed in the forest for, like, months, uh, months. And, uh, once when the, uh, winter was, um, by the, touch- touching the end, I had a friend that people... He was in Tang- Tanger. And then he reach out to me. He said, "I have a, I have a ship. Let's go." I couldn't leave Tanger. I did everything, I get to the bus station, and there was so much police and this (smacks lips) . I didn't wanna end up in a, in the desert in Oujda. I'm like, "Okay. Just..." And then the next

  17. 50:36 – 58:06

    Evading Police Radars

    1. FN

      day, one h- uh, the next day, um, we are running from the police, uh, from 4:00 AM to like maybe 4:00 PM. We came back to our spot, I opened my phone, I saw like 12 missed call. I check, and then he was like, "Eto made it." Eto was the guy that was calling me. I'm like, "Damn, I could've been making it too with them."

    2. SB

      Did they get, they got to Europe?

    3. FN

      Yeah. They got to Europe. Like, "Bro, come on." I couldn't sleep there anymore, and I have a lot of call and people was like, "Yes, we want you to be our captain. You w-" This, that, that, that. I'm like, "I'm going," sh- you know. And I didn't want any promises, like, "Oh, we're gonna do this, buy a, uh, boat in one week," or no. I have a guy that we've been talking for a long time, he say, "I have a boat already." I'm like, "Let's go."

    4. SB

      So you get on a boat, an inflatable boat. I heard that you wrapped yourself in silver foil.

    5. FN

      No, no, I didn't, but, um, I was planning, uh, um, we put a life jacket though, yeah. The, the one thing that we are very, um, strict about is a life jacket.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. FN

      Yeah. I didn't, but because over time you learn a lot of stuff, and you know that those silver foil, uh, would deviate radiation from like a, you know, they have the ra- radar.

    8. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you wear the silver, then the he- the radar can't find you.

    9. FN

      Yeah, the radar can't find you-

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. FN

      ... it can't see you. Because when the radar is going like this and then he see like, uh, I think it's infrared or something, and then he see movement, he will like pip, pip, pip, pip, pip, pip, pip, pip, pip, pip, pip.

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. FN

      But when you have that silver foil, they can't see you. (laughs)

    14. SB

      So that time, tell me about this successful journey. You get in the boat, n- you and a few other men, you're the captain-

    15. FN

      No, we didn't get in the boat. I went to Rabat, which there were-

    16. SB

      What's Rabat?

    17. FN

      A city.

    18. SB

      Okay.

    19. FN

      There were, I went from W- uh, Nador to Rabat to meet them, like, "Okay, when are we going to Tanger?" Because I'd been in, I'd been in Tan- I- I'd been living in Tanger for so long, um, until winter, that I went back to, to Nador. So they are living in, uh, Rabat, which is kind of like a city, and they have those little job of construction. I'm like, "When are we going?" I meet them there and like, "Okay, let's go," then I'm like, "Oh, we are still working, we are going to get pay on Saturday." And this is what, when? Like, I think this was like Tuesday. I'm like, "Bro, I'm not staying here until Saturday." Bro, bro, my blood was boiling, like (sighs) . I'm like, "Man, I missed this. I could've been making it with, uh, with it, with the, the other guy that call me." So we... Th- their, their leader, the, the head guy of the group, he say, "Okay, then I will go with you," uh, because I was the captain. "I, I need to go and check the place and everything," he say, "I will go with you. The rest of the people, they can wait until we gi- everything is good, we give them, uh, a sign so they can come."

    20. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. FN

      We move. By the time we touch ground, we are stepping down off the bus in Tanger, I got sick. I got a fever. And we are going to this w- house inside mud, we have to take our shoes off, walk inside mud to get into this house to sleep, something like that.

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. FN

      And I was sick, bro. But I can't tell anybody that I'm sick. I'm the captain.

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. FN

      And people saw me in Tanger that week, "Wow, this guy is here, he's going to make it, he's not coming back." So they are trying to bribe-... the, the guy that I was to get them in the, in the group. And here, I'm like, "No, we collect the money together to buy, um, to buy the boat, so I can, uh, kick, uh, take anybody out of it." Uh, and I'm like, "If, uh..." Because they call me Vandam. I say, "If Vandam is the captain, you guys are not coming back, you're going to make it." And I was sick. Nobody knows. (smacks lips) So long story short, uh, we'd been there for, like, a couple days, and I didn't even have any money to eat. And then, uh... But I check internet every day, to check the, uh-

    26. SB

      Weather?

    27. FN

      ... the weather, to see how the ocean is. And it wasn't so stable, and I found one day, I think it was Tuesday, and it was the 2nd, uh, April 2nd, 2013. And I say, "This day is good, because this is the speed of the wind, this is the, uh, direction of the wind." This, this. I know that thing. I don't know how I know it, but by that time, I know it properly. I was a captain.

    28. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. FN

      (laughing) So, I say, "Tell your guy to come this day, because we're, uh, because we are leaving. By the time they come with the boat, we are not sleeping here with the boat. We have to just be going with the boat, because it's a very..." Even the police, when they're like, uh, bust into houses, they will search for that.

    30. SB

      Mm-hmm.

  18. 58:06 – 1:02:40

    Calling the Red Cross for Help

    1. FN

      5:00 AM prayer.

    2. SB

      Okay.

    3. FN

      Yeah. But we get little late, because, because of those detour. But I'm the captain. I'm the one that everybody's expecting on me, and it was, we were, it was, uh, nine of us. (smacks lips) So I s- I tell them, "Okay, wait me here. Let me, um, um, find a place." (smacks lips) You know, when something is yours is yours. I walked around, and I get somewhere in the middle of rocks. I found a spot just big, uh, as big as this table, enough to inflate the boat. Just enough, no more than that. And it was like this, clean. I touch it, it, there wasn't anything sharp on it. Just like that, enough.

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. FN

      I went back and called the other guys. I'm like, "Let's go." They came, I'm like, "Okay, let's inflate the boat."

    6. SB

      Eventually, the boat gets in the water. You go.

    7. FN

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      And the boat is rescued by the American Red Cross?

    9. FN

      No. Uh, by the Red Cross. Don't know if it was... Uh, we know there was a Red Cross base in, uh, in Spain, in Tarifa.

    10. SB

      So you, did you get to Sp- you got to Spain?

    11. FN

      We didn't get there, but we know that there is a Red Cross inside the ocean. In fact-

    12. SB

      Ah, okay.

    13. FN

      ... in fact, we have their numbers.

    14. SB

      So you knew there was a Red Cross there?

    15. FN

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      So you got close to Spain-

    17. FN

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      ... and then the Red Cross came and got you.

    19. FN

      We don't... We, we get far from the, uh, Moroccans coast.

    20. SB

      Okay.

    21. FN

      But we don't know where is the limit, but we just get far from this coast, and then trying to get as farther as possible, uh, inside the ocean and call. But the problem is that you're in the middle of the ocean, and even though it's where lands, uh, the two cont- uh, closest distance of the two continent. Uh, from this side, you can see the other side, but in the middle of the ocean, when they say, "Where are you? What are you seeing?" you can't really give them a direction. So sometime, because their goal is just to rescue you. Their goal is not to bring you to Spain. And if they cannot find you, they will even call a Moroccan coast, uh, uh, coast guard for, uh, help. And if, you know, your lucky day, you get found by a Moroccan coast guard, you know where you're going. (laughs)

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. FN

      You're going back to Morocco. (laughs)

    24. SB

      Hmm.

    25. FN

      So we paddle, like, for one, I think it was, like, hour and a half, almost two hours. And then there was a- a helicopter-... uh, in, in front of us. And he was, like, standing there, like he was looking about something. And I tell the guy that, "Okay, this not a good sign." Whether this helicopter can play against us or it can play for us. What we do? Call, we call now. Because when they ask, if they ask, "What are you seeing?" we will see the helicopter is right above us, and then we call. At that time-

    26. SB

      So you called the Red Cross?

    27. FN

      We called the Red Cross.

    28. SB

      You called the Red Cross?

    29. FN

      Yes.

    30. SB

      And what did you say?

  19. 1:02:40 – 1:04:47

    Two Months in a Detention Center

    1. FN

      little harder to find us, because it was raining and the ocean wasn't stable. You know, when the ocean is stable, you can see something from far away.

    2. SB

      Mm.

    3. FN

      Now, this is, there is something crazy that happened inside the ocean. Like, from the coast, the ocean is flat. When you get inside at some point, bro, ocean has mountain.

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. FN

      Like, there is a way that you are climbing and then until you get to the peak, and then there is a way that you're going down inside the ocean. I don't know how it works, but it's exactly like that. And you can see, like, a hill, mountain inside the ocean. But-

    6. SB

      And they, they took you to Spain?

    7. FN

      They f- yeah, they found us, uh, and then took us in their, in their boat. They have a real boat, you know, like, solid big boat.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. FN

      They took us inside, and then, uh, brought us to their, um, headquarter which is in, in Spain.

    10. SB

      And you stayed in Spain in a de- det- detention center in a cell with 10 or 20 other men, um, for two months?

    11. FN

      Yes. It was like, uh, I think, uh, 53 days.

    12. SB

      How were you treated?

    13. FN

      (sighs) Treated? We were eating, but it was a prison though. It was quite a prison. I think you get to the point that you are like, "Maybe they should've just let us inside the ocean," or, uh, maybe we were better in, in Morocco, because you are locked, you can't do anything, you are... you realize that you had freedom, even though your life wasn't the best. That's when, I mean, you are here, you are getting feed every day, uh, but they tell you where, when to eat, when to shower, when to go sleep, when to go out, and everything. And after like, um, couple weeks, it started to become hard. Because at first you are excited. You are like, "Oh, I made it!"

  20. 1:04:47 – 1:07:29

    Surviving on 50 Euros

    1. FN

      You are excited, you are, "I'm in Spain, I'm in Europe." But after a couple weeks, you are like, "Come on, man." Like, "I need my sentence now."

    2. SB

      Because, if you, you had a fake ID at one point. And if you-

    3. FN

      Oh, no. When you get caught, you make sure that you don't even have a receipt or whatever on you.

    4. SB

      So you threw it in the water?

    5. FN

      Oh, yeah.

    6. SB

      When did you throw it in the water? When you saw the Red Cross coming?

    7. FN

      I, no, when you're sure that the Red Cross will get you. Because otherwise, that would be your way out in Morocco. Sometime he can prevent you not to be thrown in the desert.

    8. SB

      When did they... They released you from the detention center in Spain-

    9. FN

      Yes.

    10. SB

      ... eventually, after-

    11. FN

      Yes.

    12. SB

      ... almost two months. And they gave you 50 euros.

    13. FN

      No, not from the dete- detention center. There is an association that come, charity for refugees.

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. FN

      Some organization that are out there. So they will come, take you, and then bring you to their, uh, place.

    16. SB

      And where, where did you, where did you want to go? What was, what was the plan? So you're now in Spain, you're free, you've got 50 euros.

    17. FN

      So my plan, first of all, was to go to... First I wanted to go to the UK.

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. FN

      But I knew that even though I'm in Europe, the free circulation in Europe will not allow me to get into UK because they are not in the, that zone, in the Schengen Zone. So I think I settled for Germany, because I wanted a place that boxing was big. But for somehow I was in a group of people that most of them, they were like, "Oh, we are going to France. Oh, ʻChamps-Élysées,' oh this, oh that."

    20. SB

      And in the 9th of June 2013, 26 years old now-

    21. FN

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SB

      ... you arrive in Paris. And I read that on your first day in Paris, um, you figured out h- where to eat, where to sleep, and you found a boxing gym. Where did you sleep when you arrived in Paris?

    23. FN

      In the parking lot.

    24. SB

      You slep- slept in a parking lot?

    25. FN

      Yeah.

    26. SB

      How long did you sleep in the parking lot for?

    27. FN

      Like two months.

    28. SB

      For two months you slept in a parking lot?

    29. FN

      Yeah.

    30. SB

      How did you, how did you... So, you arrive in Paris. You're sleeping in a carpark. Um, how do you find a gym, pay for a gym-

  21. 1:07:29 – 1:09:55

    My Coach's Support: A Place to Stay and Guidance

    1. FN

      uh, he has his substitute is there. You can talk to him." And we... I just explained straightforward, like, "Okay. I arrive in Paris yesterday. I don't have where to sleep, you know, but... Oh, what I want, I want a place to train, so that's why I wanted to see a boxing... a coach, if you can let me train here because I have no money. Uh, I have nowhere to sleep. I have nothing, but the only thing that I'm asking for is a place to train because I want to become a world champion." Straightforward. That was it. And he said, um, "If you have a phone number, give me your phone number. I'll speak to a boxing coach. He'll be here on Wednesday, and he'll give you a call back." That's how I gave him my phone number. I had a phone. And then on Thursday morning, he called me, and he say, "Yes, I spoke to the coach, and, uh, he agree that you can come and train. And the next training, uh, is Saturday." And that's how I started.

    2. SB

      Didier Carment?

    3. FN

      Yeah, Didier Carment.

    4. SB

      D- Didier Carment was that man that you met that day in the boxing gym that gave you a chance.

    5. FN

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      And he let you train for free. How-

    7. FN

      He speak on my behalf to the coach who let me-

    8. SB

      Let you train.

    9. FN

      ... uh, yeah.

    10. SB

      And he gave you new pair of shoes. I read that he gave you keys to an apartment to sleep in as well.

    11. FN

      Uh, yes. After, like, two months, uh, he gave me, he gave me a key. He has, like, one apartment that, uh, he was, uh, I think was Airbnb or renting out, and then he get free for couple years. And at time, I think, uh, he knows me a little bit more, and he gave me that apartment for almost two months.

    12. SB

      He, he changed your life, didn't he? Because if he hadn't have said yes, if he hadn't have introduced you to the person, if he hadn't help, have helped you...

    13. FN

      He helped me a lot. He helped me a lot. Changed my life, I think, is too much to say.

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. FN

      But he helped me a lot. Um, I mean, we were at the gym, and then he knows exactly my situation because I was, uh, clear to him, telling him everything, but other people at the gym didn't know. And in fact, he, he at some point even tell me that, "You don't have to tell your story to everybody. They don't need to know your situation." You know, like-

    16. SB

      Why did he help you?

    17. FN

      Hmm?

    18. SB

      Why did he help you?

    19. FN

      Because he was kind. He just like me and like to help me,

  22. 1:09:55 – 1:10:52

    My First Experience with MMA

    1. FN

      and, uh, he helped me a lot.

    2. SB

      It's because he didn't have a, a reason.

    3. FN

      No, he didn't... A lot of people will have expectation that maybe at time you would not, you will not know, but later on you will find out. But he was just genuine. He never have, like, a expectation, you know. In fact, sometime he's the guy that sometime you will even call, he will not, he will not be around, shut down his phone and everything. He's always been like that.

    4. SB

      Because it was quite difficult to become a boxer in France without having all the, of the correct identity papers, he eventually suggests that you take up mixed martial arts as a way to make some quick money. Um, and in 2013, 26 years old, you went to the MMA Factory in France, uh, and introduced your coach, yourself to a coach called F- F- Fernand Lopez.

    5. FN

      Yes.

    6. SB

      And within four months, I mean, he saw something special in you in terms of MMA. And within four months of

  23. 1:10:52 – 1:12:20

    Facing Rejection: No One Wanted to Fight Me in Paris

    1. SB

      that, you had your first MMA fight.

    2. FN

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      What did you think when you first saw the sport of MMA? Did you... Had you ever heard of MMA before?

    4. FN

      No. So, Didier was the first one to talk to me about MMA. And like, "Oh, yes, you have a good striking if you do MMA." I'm like, "What's MMA?" "Mixed martial art." "Okay, good. Then what's that? What's mixed martial art?" Say, "Yes, it's like boxing with wrestling, with this." I'm like, "Ah, I think I have seen that once on the TV." I was watching TV, I see something like that. Like, "Yes, if you have... If you learn some good wrestling, def- some takedown defense, little bit of a grappling and this." I'm like, "What's grappling?" So he explained the whole thing to me. (laughs)

    5. SB

      (laughs)

    6. FN

      And this is back in 2000, uh, 13. June 2013. And I'm like, "Bro, nah, that's not what I want." I want, you know, the Mike Tyson boxing, right?

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. FN

      So, yes, I'm like, "That's what I want."

    9. SB

      You fought five times in Europe before you were signed for the UFC, which is quite remarkable because a lot of people spend many, many, many, many years trying to get into the UFC. You fought just five times in Europe before you were offered a chance to fight in the UFC.

    10. FN

      I didn't even... I wasn't even planning to go to the UFC. And, uh... But as soon as I start, I started to fight in France, then it became,

  24. 1:12:20 – 1:14:00

    How I Made It to the UFC

    1. FN

      it became very hard for me to have a fight in France. People didn't want to fight me, fight me.

    2. SB

      Why?

    3. FN

      Oh, they say I'm brutal. And I'm like, "It's a fighting game." I mean, the, the goal is to be brutal, and then I'm not having fight because I'm brutal? Like... (laughs)

    4. SB

      I heard your coach, he actually posted on Facebook saying, um, asking if anyone in Europe wanted to fight you.

    5. FN

      That's true.

    6. SB

      The post says, "Will anybody in Europe fight Fra- Francis?"

    7. FN

      Yes.

    8. SB

      Nobody wanted to fight you?

    9. FN

      I mean, not anybody at that level.... because even though a lot of people didn't want to fight me, I was still on experience, so it's not like they will give, just give me to anybody. But nobody either, like, wanna take a risk. There is not a gain for a elite fighter to fight me. He's risking of losing everything, but not a mo- not l- a quite lot to gain.

    10. SB

      Were you aiming to be in the UFC? 'Cause you, now you knew what MMA was.

    11. FN

      No.

    12. SB

      But when you started becoming an MMA fighter, were, were you trying to get into the UFC?

    13. FN

      No.

    14. SB

      How did that happen?

    15. FN

      I was just, like, you know, training, uh, because I h- I had time. I'd, uh, I was jobless, so I have all my time and I liked to train. And I found MMA, I found MMA very, uh, exciting. I like all those stuff, so I was training boxing, MMA. And then I start to fight MMA, and sometime maybe I will have, like, um, couple hundred euro fighting, uh, MMA, who s- was- was very welcome at the, at the time. So I'm like,

  25. 1:14:00 – 1:15:44

    My First Fight in America

    1. FN

      "Let's do this." But that was it. And people kept saying, "Oh, if you improve your jujitsu, if you do this, you're gonna become a UFC champion." I'm like, "Then what?" (laughs) I really, like, I was so focused on boxing, and then, um... But I think, like, MMA came to me and gave me that opportunity. And then all of the sudden, I'm here, I have the UFC contract, and I'm like-

    2. SB

      How did that happen? How did that happen? D- did they call you, or your agent, or m- your manager?

    3. FN

      So I think, um, uh, Fernand know a guy that was a manager at time. Uh, he w- he, uh, Thiago.

    4. SB

      Okay.

    5. FN

      Thiago Oku- Okamura.

    6. SB

      Okay.

    7. FN

      Yeah. And then he was the guy that was, uh, pitching me to the UFC. And then-

    8. SB

      Okay, so your manager, your coach knew someone who was pitching you to the UFC.

    9. FN

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      Okay.

    11. FN

      A manager.

    12. SB

      Okay.

    13. FN

      And then that's how I get, uh, that's how the, I get the, uh, UFC contract.

    14. SB

      Where was your first fight in the UFC?

    15. FN

      Orlando.

    16. SB

      Orlando?

    17. FN

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      Was that your first time in America?

    19. FN

      Yeah. Uh, it was the first time. And I remember, like, uh, I get there, and I'm, like, "Okay." And, uh, there was somebody at the airport with a, a tablet with my name on it. And they pick me up with the Cadillac, brought me to the hotel, the Hyatt, Hyatt R- Residency. They check me in, brought me to my room.

    20. SB

      How did it feel?

    21. FN

      Then I call home. I call my mom. I'm like, "I don't know what it is, but I think your son have made it." (laughs)

    22. SB

      (laughs)

    23. FN

      Finally get to that,

  26. 1:15:44 – 1:20:50

    Winning the UFC Heavyweight Title

    1. FN

      like ... Uh, I mean, like, I get to America-

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. FN

      ... basically. So that's what ... Because for so many years, America was the dream, to get in America.

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. FN

      And I get in America, and in a big way, not the way that I get in Europe, because I get in Europe in the service door. I get in America basically on, on the red carpet. That was it.

    6. SB

      That was 2015.

    7. FN

      '15.

    8. SB

      2015?

    9. FN

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      How much ... That first fight, do you, do you ... Does that m- that first fight make you rich?

    11. FN

      No. No.

    12. SB

      You don't get paid much for the first UFC fight?

    13. FN

      Yeah, it was $10,000, plus $10,000-

    14. SB

      10,000?

    15. FN

      ... uh, win bonus. And then with all the commissions, you got out with almost just half. Uh, but he wasn't, he wasn't about the fight. He was more about, like, I think me coming to America and all the stuff. He was more than what I was making in the fight.

    16. SB

      That's nine years after you left Cameroon. You fought for the UFC Heavyweight Championship belt. And eventually you won that belt, and you held that UFC heavyweight title for-

    17. FN

      Yeah, but I lost ... I, I fought before, and I lost.

    18. SB

      Yeah, you fought quite a lot. Yeah.

    19. FN

      Yes, I fought in, uh, 2018.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. FN

      Yeah.

    22. SB

      Um, but eventually you won.

    23. FN

      The s- the, the same guy.

    24. SB

      Yeah.

    25. FN

      I lost.

    26. SB

      I've, I've watched your career, so I've, I've watched the journey, and it, it felt like for the first start of your career, I don't know, it felt like maybe you weren't as focused. But then it felt like this, this other half of your UFC career, something had changed.

    27. FN

      I was focused. It's just that I didn't ... I never, I never done sport before. I didn't grow up as a athlete, so I didn't know how you, how they do. I didn't know how they train. I didn't know how they prepare for a championship. I didn't know anything. So I was just out there trying. And then in that fight, I did a lot of mistake, and I learned from it. And now I'm like, "Okay, the good thing, I might have lost this fight, but this fight will be the biggest, um, fight in my career, because everything that is coming after this fight, everything that I'm learn, that I learn in this fight, I will implement that in my game, in my career, uh, from now on, and it will be quite helpful."

    28. SB

      You have the hardest punch ever recorded by the UFC, the equivalent of 93 horsepower. A smart car, by comparison, maxes out at 80 horsepower. And they called you The Predator. You did eventually win the UFC heavyweight title, and you held it between '21, 2021 and 2023. And eventually, you left the UFC in January 2023, because of basically a dis- a disagreement with, with the UFC, with Dana White, about, I guess, freedom and money?

    29. FN

      Yes, freedom, and, uh, treatment. The way that, uh, I was being treated, I didn't like it.

    30. SB

      W- was there ever a moment where you realized that you'd really made it?You know, you're, you're a young man that come from Cameroon, walked, you walked your, your way out of the, you know, through Africa, and then you got on a boat and went to Spain, and then from Spain to Paris, then from Paris to America, and then you, you reached the highest mountain, which is you winning the UFC heavyweight title, which is, like, the peak of fighting. Was there-

  27. 1:20:50 – 1:24:11

    The Conversation with Dana White

    1. FN

      when I realize, because when I'm here, I'm just living like it's normal, like it's everybody, like, he was just like this all the time. But when I get back, I connect with the pa- with the past, and then I realize how far, uh, the road has been.

    2. SB

      And you've, you've really gone. I mean, it's been a, an incredible jo- Has your mother ever seen you fight in the UFC? Has she ever been there?

    3. FN

      No, I tried. I tried to get her, uh, to my fight, uh, back in, uh, 2019. She couldn't get a visa. She get, re- uh, denied twice. And I'm like, "Okay, this is so stressful. I'm not doing it again." It was also embarrassing, stressful one. (sighs) And even for her, it was very tough. And I'm like, "Okay, I'm not putting her through this again." Uh, there will be a moment, I think, if I set up, if I sen- set things up pretty good, there will be a b- a moment that things will be easier for her to see me fight.

    4. SB

      Why are you fighting? Why are you fighting now? I mean, you, you made... Uh, I mean, the reason you left the UFC was because of freedom issues and you didn't like the treatment. You wanted to be free. The argument you had with Dana, um, you know, you say that, essentially, you, you weren't willing to, um, comply with the, the system of the UFC where you don't really have the option to go and box and do other things. Dana White said that you were in a place where you wanted to take less risks and you wanted to fight lesser opponents for more money, so we're gonna g- let him do that. Is that true? Do you agree with what he said? He said you wanted to take less risks and fight other opponents, lesser opponents, to make more money.

    5. FN

      I think if we have to spend time to talk about, like, what Dana White say, if it's true or not, we're gonna spend a whole night here and then don't be okay with a lot of thing. Um, I think the situation was a little bit embarrassing for him, and then he was going to make a statement and find his way out. Less of upending. Like, leaving my comfortable li- uh, career in MMA that I'm quite comfortable into to step into boxing to take the best for my first, uh, boxing match, which I never really do a professional boxing match. Tha- does that sound like a easy fight? (laughs)

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. FN

      I mean, I think he has to say something, and, um, those who knows, uh, those who know, know that he has to, just has to say something-

    8. SB

      But what's the truth?

    9. FN

      ... to get out of that situation.

    10. SB

      What's the truth?

    11. FN

      Easy. He didn't wanna, um, compromise. He didn't wanna change, and I feel like that situation wasn't good for me. And, uh, I tell myself, if that's the end, then let it be. I, I mean, in fact, I had no guarantee that the boxing that I've been dreaming of doing, I will have to do it, it will happen at the time. But, uh, I didn't just wanna comply and do thing that I'm not okay with just because they left me with that one option to say yes with things that I don't like.

  28. 1:24:11 – 1:27:24

    How the Contract Took My Freedom

    1. FN

      That was the thing. I, I was very aware that, uh, that could be it. But he has to be on my term. And e- even though it means, like, going back to Africa, you know, I don't know, farm. I li- I love fam- farming. I always love, uh, farm. And if that meant I had to go back and farm, I was okay with it. So I made my peace with myself, uh, at time, and that's why I stuck with my decision. I turned down a lot of money that I didn't have at time. I was, for the most part, I was broke. I was living, uh, out of loan. So, yes.

    2. SB

      You're the heavyweight champion of the world in the UFC, you're broke.

    3. FN

      I mean, not that broke. When I say I was broke, I mean for, uh, for a hea- for a heavyweight champion, I wasn't-

    4. SB

      R- multi-

    5. FN

      ... comfortable.

    6. SB

      ... multi-millionaire.

    7. FN

      Yeah. I wasn't comfortable. Uh-

    8. SB

      Were you a millionaire?

    9. FN

      Maybe. But, uh, never made a million a fight. But, um-

    10. SB

      The most you made was £500,000?

    11. FN

      Except, except if I have accept to, um, to sign a new contract, I would've been having a lot of money. But that contract was coming with a lot of thing that I was fighting against, and, uh, that's why I didn't sign. So I'm like, "Okay, whatever this deal is, whatever this contract is, I'm fighting this contract of. Um, instead of renewing the contract for, and have more money, and really re- have nothing change, that's mean I'm setting myself up for another y- for another years in the same situation, that, uh, I'm giving away all the power in a contract that is not giving me any power."

    12. SB

      The power you wanted was freedom?

    13. FN

      Yeah, was freedom. Was a, uh, possibility to say, "Okay, this is not right. You can't do this." You know, or, "You have to do this." You have... I mean, I, I, I need the obligation. I don't want a one side contract. I don't want a contract that, okay, there is, uh, I have no right. But in the other hand, uh, the other side of the table have no obligation. So in fact, uh, I mean, I'm giving everything for nothing, just for money. I want some of that leverage.

    14. SB

      So you wanted to be able to decide, and you wanted it-

    15. FN

      Not like to decide.

    16. SB

      ... the contract-

    17. FN

      But I want, I want at least some responsibility on the other side showing toward me. You know, I want some r- some responsibility. Uh, for example, when I come to, like, say healthcare, for that level, for the money that I could've been making, uh, for the money that I would've be making if I had signed that contract, I could've have any kind of healthcare that I want. But, at the same time, I also want the guy on the other side of the table to

  29. 1:27:24 – 1:29:20

    The UFC Contract and Its Clauses

    1. FN

      take some responsibility. I'm like, "Okay, I'm giving you a healthcare, for example."

    2. SB

      So you wanted some- like something like healthcare included.

    3. FN

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. FN

      I want stuff like that. I want something like a guarantee. Since I'm making this of a li- f- as a living, and I'm exclusive to you, you guarantee me that whenever I could fight, you find something for me. You are obligated to give me a fight. Know that because if I don't sign a contract, and you want me to sign, and you want me to run out of money, and crawl back to you, because I need those money, then you starve me, and, uh, not give me a fight.

    6. SB

      Okay, so you wanted a guarantee.

    7. FN

      You know, even though you know that, even though that you, you know that I might need two bec- just because you know that I might need two or three fight to make a living, to keep off- up my lifestyle, then, uh, you strengthen ba- uh, down to one fight. So I will be needing money, and then would be forced to take a contract that I don't want just because I need money.

    8. SB

      So I wanna make sure I'm super clear on this. You, you essentially wanted a, a guarantee of fights within the contracts so that you could live.

    9. FN

      A guarantee of engagement. I'm giving everything. I'm giving up all my right.

    10. SB

      Exclusivity. Yeah.

    11. FN

      Exclusivity on everything.

    12. SB

      So you can't go and do anything else.

    13. FN

      But I really... Yes, but you are not committed to anything.

    14. SB

      So, okay, so I'm the UFC. I'm not committed to anything, but you have to give up your exclusivity.

    15. FN

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      And I'm not even guaranteeing that I'm gonna give you-

    17. FN

      And then some, some exclusivity in that contract said, "In perpetuity."

    18. SB

      Forever?

    19. FN

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      So exclusive forever in certain situations.

    21. FN

      But at the same time, you really have no obligation.

    22. SB

      But I have no c- responsibility or obligation to give you anything.

    23. FN

      Yeah.

    24. SB

      So it's really one-sided.

    25. FN

      Yeah.

    26. SB

      Okay.

    27. FN

      So if, if you decide not to give me a fight for two years, I can't say anything.

    28. SB

      And you'd starve?

    29. FN

      But if you, if you call me and say, "Oh, you have a fight in..." Uh, "Okay, I have a fight.

  30. 1:29:20 – 1:32:21

    Tyson Fury vs. Francis Ngannou

    1. FN

      Uh, I want you to fight in one month," and I'm say, "Oh, I'm hurt," then you have your right to say, "Okay, I extend your contract for six month."

    2. SB

      Oh, okay, so if you turn down a fight, then they can extend the contract for six months.

    3. FN

      It doesn't matter the reason.

    4. SB

      For any reason.

Episode duration: 2:07:17

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