Gabby Logan Opens Up About Her Heartbreaking Past | E191

1. 0:00 – 2:05

   Intro

   1. GLGabby Logan0:00

      You'd wake up just with those first thoughts of the day would just ... Oh, God. I did have a, a fear that I was gonna ...

   2. NANarrator0:10

      Gaby Logan! One of the most recognizable broadcasters, she's become synonymous with the Olympics, football, and rugby.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:17

      Oh, no.

   4. GLGabby Logan0:18

      It was a very male-dominated environment. And there certainly were people who exhibited kind of machismo. And there, there were times where I felt like I was trying to conform, but it didn't make me feel very good. I wasn't happy. My dad was, um, assistant manager of Bradford City when the fire there took 56 lives, and we were all there at the game that day. Bodies are being dragged away from that stand. It's a seminal day of my life, really, because there is a before and there's an after. And that day is that day that really defined lot, so many things for me.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:52

      Can you still remember that you get a phone call from your mother about your brother?

   6. GLGabby Logan0:55

      It's a day that I have relived so many times in my mind. I can't express how shocking that is because he was fine, you know? (laughs) In my mind, immediately created a narrative that he had been run over or he had been in a car accident, and then very quickly my mum started to tell me actually what had happened.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:20

      Before this episode begins, I just wanna say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers. 74% of you that watch this channel didn't subscribe before, and we're now down to about 71%. So, that helps us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain, but simply, the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests get. So if you haven't yet subscribed to The Diary of a CEO, if I could have any favors from you, if you've ever watched this show and enjoyed it, it's just to, to please hit the subscribe button. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Gaby, to understand

2. 2:05 – 6:16

   Early years

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:05

      you and to understand the trajectory of your life and how you've ended up to be where you are today, and the, the passions you pursued, the person you became, what do I need to understand about your earliest context?

   2. GLGabby Logan2:19

      I hope I've gone into that in my book, and I've tried to understand that myself. And one of the biggest compliments somebody has paid me who's read the book is somebody I work with really closely, and she just said to me, "I get so much about you from some of the stories you've told of, as, as a child even." We can all point to big incidents that happen in life, but actually sometimes it's just the small things that create, um, in your mind an urgency or they create, um, a desire or a passion that, you know, um, still burns inside you and you wonder where it came from. Um, so I think you probably would need to understand a bit about the parenting that I received and the context of our family life and where, when we moved around and how our lives, uh, were predicated by my dad's job and what he did and the background that he had as well.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:09

      He was a professional football player?

   4. GLGabby Logan3:11

      He was a professional football player. So that means potentially moving house, moving city at the drop of a hat. This was in the '70s and '80s, the days where you could be transferred mid-week, you know? You ... It wasn't a transfer window that we have now. So, he would often up sticks and move on, and then a few months later we'd follow.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:29

      What does that, what does that do to a child? Never really asked somebody that question before. When you're constantly moving around as a kid, is there, in hindsight, any sort of character change or psychological impact of d- for better or f- or for worse?

   6. GLGabby Logan3:43

      I think it has, uh, there's a double-edged sword to it. My mum, and it depends I guess on the other person in a relationship, my mum has always been a very positive person, so she looked at these things for us as adventures, you know? She would say to me and my siblings, "Oh, we're gonna move to this place and it's gonna be very exciting, and you're gonna go to a new school, and it's a chance to meet new people." And so her sense of adventure gave us, um, a confidence and a, a sense that, you know, it was gonna be okay. Uh, so that was great. But then what I realized writing the book was that it probably made me a bit flighty when it came to friends when I was younger. And I look back at, I was writing about a really close friend I had when I was 13. I've got no idea where she is now. And I think because the next time I had to move on somewhere, and at that point I was actually staying within Leeds, but I probably was moving schools. I'd got used to going, "Bye-bye," and kind of moving on to the next place. So I was probably experiencing a bit of self-preservation, you know? Not wanting to get too close, because we might be off soon.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett4:40

      Mm-hmm.

   8. GLGabby Logan4:40

      So, we'll have a good time for now. (laughs)

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:42

      Mm-hmm. Were you a confident person when you were, you know, let's say, bef- before your 18th birthday, would you describe yourself as a, as a confident person? Self-esteem and ...

   10. GLGabby Logan4:51

       Yeah, I would.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett4:51

       Yeah?

   12. GLGabby Logan4:51

       I think that is something that as well that my husband and I talk about this a lot, the, the greatest gift you can give children is self-esteem, I think. And he left school without self-esteem because he was dyslexic and left without any qualifications. And it is his big passion that kids should always have the star within them found before they leave school, whatever that is. You know, somebody needs to tell you you are good at something before you're on your way. And, um, I, I feel like I was incredibly lucky because I left school with really good self-esteem and I had a childhood that was, uh, that gave me good self-esteem, you know? And I believed that I could achieve things and I could, I could get on in life. And I think a lot of that was my mum's positivity certainly, but also my dad's example of really hard work and seeing him really graft and really believe that, you know, what you put in you got out. And I think that's really rewarding, you know? That is really ... That m- makes you feel so good when you work hard, and that's the example that he, he set to us. And I think that all creates a confidence because ... And I, when I say confidence, this is not misplaced in the sense that you think everything you do is going to be brilliant, because you really need to know that you're going to fail at things, obviously, and that things are gonna go wrong. And I could see that with, with both of them. But I think a belief that if it does go wrong, it's okay because you can move on. So, I feel one of the biggest blessings I had as a child was leaving school with confidence.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett6:15

       I was thinking then about,

3. 6:16 – 13:58

   Did you parents teach you how to take care of yourself?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett6:16

      y- you saying your dad instilled hard work, um, kind of into you by example I guess, because he, he was clearly someone that was incredibly focused and, um, focused on his career.It made me, it made me think about how we... often... don't get to learn how to take care of ourselves from our parents, in terms of we learn how to, to work hard and strive, but the sort of counterbalance to that would be learning how to slow down-

   2. GLGabby Logan6:42

      Mm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett6:43

      ... and learning how to, um, make sure you're okay.

   4. GLGabby Logan6:46

      Mm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett6:46

      And I think specifically, when I talk to people w- when they, you know, on this show, when they talk about their fathers and their, and the generations that have come before, there's often little understanding of mental health or-

   6. GLGabby Logan6:55

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett6:56

      ... um, burnout or-

   8. GLGabby Logan6:58

      Mm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett6:58

      ... balance-

   10. GLGabby Logan6:59

       Mm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett6:59

       ... or all of these kinds of things. Did you, did you see the symptoms of that in your father? Did you see a lack of sort of self-preservation or self-care?

   12. GLGabby Logan7:09

       Absolutely. Um, he, he came from a generation of men. He came from a... well, first of all, let's go back. He came from a really tough working class estate in Cardiff. He was 15 years old when he was plucked out of that and given an opportunity to go to Leeds United and be a footballer. 15 years old, he'd left his home and he was living in digs with a, with a family who kind of put footballers up. And he was, you know, that was a way out for him. His dad had been a docker, and he'd owned working men's clubs, and when I say owned, he'd kind of run a working men's club. His mum had four or five different jobs. She was doing night shift cleaning, and he had siblings who left school without qualifications and did working class, uh, blue-collar jobs. And so this was a big opportunity, and this wasn't the day, these weren't the days when the Premier League was in existence, but this was still a- a- a-, you know, a glamorous route potentially and a- also a financially secure, as, as secure as you can be being a sportsperson, way out of the life that he had. And so that was an enormous responsibility, I think, for him. And he... this was a, a very renowned, hard kind of team. Leeds United was this team that, you know, these players were renowned for being very hard on the pitch. They were, you know, kind of very brutal, the way, the style of play. And he's in that environment as this little boy. You know, I look at my son now, who's 17, and I think about what he would've been like at 15, moving a few hundred miles away from home, and so already, you're in, you know, at that age, you're having to build up defenses. And then he was, you know, told he wasn't good enough and, you know, had to keep working harder and, and eventually played there for 10 years and was an international captain for his country. So he did achieve incredible things in his career, but never stopped. You know, it was relentless. Being a footballer is relentless. Being a sportsperson is relentless. You're never gonna achieve perfection. You're always looking for it. So how do you feel satisfied, you know? When, when do you actually sit down and go, "That was really good"? And I suppose there was a sense of him always wanting, you know, keep going, keep going. And then when you turn to management, which he did straightaway without a break, and then he went through huge, huge tragedy. He was the s- um, assistant manager of Bradford City when the fire there took 56 lives, and we were all there at the game that day. And he went to almost every funeral in the space of six weeks after that. You know, he did all of this and never sat down with anybody and took stock or had a counselor or took a break from, you know, from that relentlessness. And so I think I understand him a lot better now through looking at his life through that prism, almost, of seeing that, and you understand... You know, I talk in the book about him drinking too much and using that to self-medicate through his life and to the point where it became... you know, it's been a problem, and he's been hospitalized. But of course now, if he was that sportsperson now, there'd be a sports psychologist at the club. You know, there'd be somebody saying, "Let's have a chat. Let's talk about what's, what's going on, why you're feeling these, these levels of anxiety." So, um, it's, it's definitely something that I'm much better (laughs) at. And, um, but I think that's also a product of the age that we live in, that we're all so much more aware of the need to stop and the need to process.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett10:20

       When you, when you look at his life, you've described a few of them there, but what, what... in hindsight now, what are the needs that you think were unmet in his life? And I ask that question because, um, I'm wondering how one avoids-

   14. GLGabby Logan10:32

       Mm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett10:32

       ... such an outcome. You talked about the importance of connection-

   16. GLGabby Logan10:34

       Mm.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett10:34

       ... not going home to a bunch of strangers-

   18. GLGabby Logan10:36

       Mm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett10:36

       ... being closer to your family. Are there any needs that you think went unmet that you we- making sure that your son's life and your life are, um, full of?

   20. GLGabby Logan10:46

       He was very... my dad was always a very emotional person, so I don't feel like he kept his emotions locked up. You know, he would... in front of us, he was... he would cry. You know, he would watch something on TV, um, usually sport, that would make him teary. So it wasn't as if he was this hard person who didn't tell you he loved you. He told us he loved us. But I feel like, as a professional in w- in his job, I feel like it was, it was probably very hard for him to show any weakness outside of the home and show any... and when I say weakness, such a pejorative term, because actually, it's not a weakness to say, "I think I could be better if I just had this bit of time here, or could speak to somebody, or I could, you know, communicate better about how I'm feeling about this." And we are talking about a very different era and, um, when it was that it's not manly, you know. It's not, (laughs) it's not manly to behave in that way, and we just wouldn't hear those terms now. Even though some people still harbor those feelings perhaps-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett11:43

       Mm.

   22. GLGabby Logan11:43

       ... they wouldn't say that in public. So I think if he had had... and he did have the opportunity, when my brother died and after Bradford, to talk to people, but he resisted that. You know, he didn't want to sit down and speak to a counselor, and I think that was probably because of the historic kind of experiences that he'd had, you know. It just wasn't something that he felt talking to people outside of the home... he was not comfortable.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett12:07

       I- is that easy to, to teach to, to your kids, that idea of sort of ex- expressing yourself and turning, turning to others for support emotionally? Is it, is it something that you think about when you, when you're raising your children?

   24. GLGabby Logan12:19

       Yeah, we talk about... specifically, we talk about it a lot, and we hope we lead by example as parents, but I'm more mindful of it with my son.... because of the male kind of resistance almost to-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett12:31

       Mm-hmm.

   26. GLGabby Logan12:31

       ... to have that, um, open dialogue. But he is very much a kind of, he lets- wears his heart on his sleeve, likes to tell you stuff. And I think that's probably 'cause his dad is very much like that. So, he sees his father being like that and feels confident that he can, he can do that. And I think once you do that as a child and you realize the reception is good and you're not going to be judged or anybody think any less of you, you're more likely to come back and, and do it again. So, I think it is a lot about the home and, you know, having the example of somebody doing that in front of you is really powerful. And you never, with your kids, it's never a finished job where you feel like, "Oh, yeah. He's somebody." But I really do feel like he knows he can talk to us about anything and he can talk to other people. And he does, you know, bring his anxieties and troubles home. I think the key thing I'm f- I find as a parent that you have to remember, especially when they kind of turn 13, that age, sometimes those things, to you, seem quite trivial and you think, "Why are you bothered about that?" And then you've got to remember what it's like to be 13 and 14 and how huge those things are and how big they were for you, and not just go, "That really doesn't matter." You know? (laughs)

   27. SBSteven Bartlett13:39

       (laughs)

   28. GLGabby Logan13:39

       And actually, it's really important that you don't minimalize their issues and their problems. It's okay for you because you've been through so many different things and you know it's gonna be all right. But they don't know that right now. So, it's important, I think, to, to just always try and take yourself back to that teenager.

4. 13:58 – 21:11

   The phone call about your brother

   1. GLGabby Logan13:58

   2. SBSteven Bartlett13:58

      You've been through so many things and, oh, many of those things, uh, I mean, so many of those things are in this book, The First Half. One of the most, uh, heart-wrenching stories you tell is when you were 19 years old and you get a phone call from your mother about your brother, Daniel. Can you still remember that day clearly?

   3. GLGabby Logan14:20

      Oh, absolutely. And when I wrote that chapter, which turned out to be the first chapter in the book, because it was- I wrote it because I wanted to practice writing to get myself into the rhythm of writing the book not knowing where that chapter would be. And when I wrote it, I realized it had to be the start of the book because it was the seminal day of my life, really. Because there is a before and there's an after, and that day is that day that really defined lot- so many things for me. And when I sat down to write, I took myself kind of right back into that day. I could, I could almost smell the air, you know, because it was a bank holiday Monday. I was living in a small flat in Earlsfield in London. And everybody's windows were open because it was a lovely day, and people were barbecuing in their little gardens, and I could smell the coals, and I could feel the, the air coming through the windows almost. And I was just taken right back into that moment. The light, everything that came through the window when I sat on the bed, I can see the duvet cover. I can... You know, I, I really was... It was very visceral when I, when I was there w- writing, um, probably because it's a day that I have relived so many times in my mind.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett15:26

      Your mum calls you and says... From what I read in the book, she's very to the point about what's happened. She says, "Daniel is dead."

   5. GLGabby Logan15:33

      She called me, and the phone rang, and I sat on the bed and said hello in the kind of, you know, normal cheery way, and she said, "Daniel's dead." And that was, you know... I can't express how shocking that is because you- he was fine, (laughs) you know? So, there was nothing wrong with Daniel. He wasn't ill. He'd never been ill. You know, he'd never had anything wrong with him. So, it was so just mind-blowing to hear. You know, I, I, my, in my mind immediately created a narrative that he had been run over or he had been in a car accident. I decided quickly that he was in a car 'cause he was 16 nearly. He was 15 going on 16. Maybe one of the older boys that he knew had just passed his test. Maybe he'd been taken... And I had him driving down this road that I knew in Leeds, and this is where it happened and... And then very quickly, my mom started to tell me actually what had happened. That was not what happened at all. He'd, he collapsed in the garden. He was playing football, um, with my dad and my little brother. And my little brother was six, Jordan, and he'd just gone over to get a football and he collapsed and died. And that was it. That was like... That was as much as my mum knew at that point because by this point, she'd been to hospital and she had, um, already kinda got home, which sounds really bizarre saying that in 2022. Because now, we would've been on the phone the minute he collapsed, you know. She would've rung me and said... But they didn't have mobile phones and... Or if they had a mobile phone, it was very, you know, basic. I don't even know if they had a car phone. And so the immediate thing was to get him to hospital and to get an ambulance, and so to not include everybody in that process. So, I was in London, she was in Leeds, and then they were at the hospital, and then they came home, and it was hours later that I found out. Which, again, seems strange, you know, that I, I didn't know that this was all happening. I wasn't being given a blow-to-blow account of, of what was happening. So I... All I had was, at that point, her information, which was very scant, that something had happened to his heart. His heart had just stopped. And the, the doctor who was at A&E or the, the emergency section of the hospital when they arrived happened to be the doctor who'd given birth to me, who'd helped my mum deliver me, and he was the Old Leach United doctor, and so he'd known the family for a very long time. It was a complete coincidence. He was doing a shift on a bank holiday, and he just walked out of theater an hour after my brother had gone in and, you know, shook his head and, and it's that kind of nightmare, nightmare scenario for any, any family, any parent that... You know, they just didn't... They believed he was going into hospital because he got heatstroke or something, and they, you know, in their heads they created, well, it was a hot day, he must've been dehydrated. They did not expect that as the outcome, and my mum had phoned her mum who lived in Leeds and so a couple of the family members were at the hospital, which was also strange, you know, that they would be there, and so i- it was a completely-... just, it sounded fanciful to me. I couldn't, I couldn't get my head around the idea that this very fit, young man would just collapse. And I, I want, you know, I wanted to, immediately wanted to know kind of more, but there was nothing. You know, and that's a really frustrating... And, and there was no internet to go and go, "Okay, what, how could, how can a young person die?" You know? "How does this happen?" And we now know, of course, so much more about, um, cardiac arrest in the young, and there's a, you know, uh, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is what he was diagnosed with, and that means basically the heart just stops without warning. And we've seen very famous incidents in, in football. Um, Christian Eriksen, the Den- Danish footballer, at the last Euros collapsed on the pitch, and his life was saved because he was in the perfect place for that to happen. There was medical resource around. You know, people knew what they were doing. Daniel was in the garden, you know, there was nothing there. So he was, he was never gonna survive that. But if you, you know, if he'd, he'd been somewhere where there was a, um, a defibrillator or he was in a hospital when it happened, you know, he may well have survived. But at the time, obviously, we just couldn't get our heads around it.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett19:42

      I read in the book that the neighbor tried to resuscitate him.

   7. GLGabby Logan19:45

      So we had a neighbor who was a, he'd worked on oil rigs offshore and he had paramedic qualifications. He wasn't actually a paramedic, but he'd done some quali-... And so my mum thought, "Oh, Morris next door, he'll know what to do." And my mum was, when she was telling me, like, later and then years later when we discussed it, she was, she said she was so relaxed about it because, because he wasn't, to her, he wasn't dead, he'd just collapsed and, you know, nobody could think of him as being an unfit person. So she wasn't relaxed in the sense she wasn't urgent, but she just thought Morris will sort this out. You know, Morris came round and he couldn't get him back, he couldn't get his heart going. And, but they still didn't use the word, I, I don't think they said, "His heart stopped," because nobody wants to say that to a parent. So Morris obviously put him in the, in the ambulance, I think knowing that his heart stopped, but my parents didn't know his heart stopped. They thought he was collapsed or he was in some kind of like, you know, heat-induced coma or something had happened to him that, that meant he just wasn't responsive. I think that was it, they thought he wasn't responsive as opposed to he was actually dead. And then my dad said that... My dad went with him in the ambulance, and my dad said at one point the ambulance went round a bend really quickly and his arm flew out and landed in my dad's lap. And, and my dad said that when the arm, when his arm landed, that's when he knew he was dead because he said he just felt that there was no life, there was nothing that showed any response. And so his, his hope was crushed.

5. 21:11 – 27:33

   What was life like after that moment?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett21:11

      You, you, you look at your life as before and after that moment. What was life like after that moment?

   2. GLGabby Logan21:17

      The immediate aftermath, like the weeks after something like that is, is a strange mix of, um, activity and energy, you know, because you're organizing funerals, people are kind of coming, hundreds of people descending on the house constantly, people coming and... And actually there was a kind of, um, an energy in the house that it just kept you, you just kept going and doing things. I, my mum didn't, she very much stopped and she went into almost a kind of, after the funeral, she was almost catatonic and just kind of almost sat and did nothing for about a month. But I think I was the eldest child, my sister at the time was modeling in Japan. She'd flown home for the funeral, but then went off quite quickly afterwards. My dad decided to go on tour with Wales who he was managing, so I decided my life in London was over and I was gonna stay home and try and help. And my mum had a fledgling property business, so I was kind of running around doing errands for her and trying to kind of like keep this energy going that we'd experienced during the week leading up to the funeral. And then suddenly it all starts to quieten down and people stop coming round, people stop bringing food round, people stop ringing to see if you're okay, and, and then this kind of quietness descends on, on the house and the home and the, and everybody in it. And, and that's when you really start facing grief, 'cause grief, um, had, didn't have room to come in, you know, in those first few weeks. There was no, there was no space for it. It was all about energy and activity and trying to do your best for everybody. And then the reality, you know, just on a daily basis of kind of, I mean, every day, even when the energy was there, you'd wake up just with those first thoughts of the day were just, "Oh God," you know, it really is, it's happened. It's real. It's not, it's not a dream. And getting yourself mobilized. But then after the energy left, those, "Oh God, this is real," those feelings of just despair and kind of sadness, it just took longer to get yourself going, and you know, you do feel kind of just sometimes, or you did feel immobilized with that sadness. And, um, as a family, it just kind of pushes everybody off into kind of different corners, if you like. You know, it's like a sledgehammer coming down and just shattering something that had been a very tight unit. So, um, it then takes a long, long time, I think, for things to get back to any kind of normalcy or what you can now call your new normal.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett23:47

      Are there v- certain days or certain memories of when things were hardest for the family? Do you have like a... I w- I was speaking here yesterday to, um, Whitney from, who's the founder and CEO of Bumble-

   4. GLGabby Logan23:59

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett24:00

      ... and she went through her own version of grief, sort of more it's a professional grief that she, she, she refers to. And she says there's kind, there was kind of a day, there was a day when I remember being the hardest day in that period, and that, that represented the bottom.

   6. GLGabby Logan24:13

      Mm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett24:13

      And from there on, it was the kind of, sort of the climb out of that moment. Did, was there a bottom moment for you? Was there a day where you think that was the hardest day of all?

   8. GLGabby Logan24:22

      I don't remember there being one day in particular, because even years afterwards, you know, a few years afterwards, I could find myself sobbing, you know, over something that I'd seen or I'd read or when I started working in telly, I remember I used to be obsessed when I started working in football with the dates of players' births because they would be his age.And I knew that he might be playing in that match, or he could've, you know... And so, there would be something that would just kind of throw me. Or I wouldn't, I wasn't necessarily looking for it, but then it would just occur to me that they were the same age, and you do that thing where you wonder, "Well, first of all, would he be playing in this match? What kind of player would he have been? I wonder if he'd have had a girlfriend by now. I wonder if he'd have met somebody he wanted to marry. Oh, now I wonder if he'd have chill-" You know, and you do that through the life of the person that, you know, is no longer with you because you wanna keep their, you know, kind of their memory alive. But also, I think, um, you wonder then if everything would've been different in the family, 'cause ultimately my parents divorced, and my dad was using alcohol to, you know, to medicate himself. And, you know, it's a lot to put on Daniel's shoulders, but you think, "Would, if he hadn't died, would, would we all still be together? Would this, you know, would the family unit have survived?" And so there are those days, you know, where just years later, you can be floored. So I don't think there was one day, but what happens is you start to notice, "Oh, a few weeks have gone by now, and life's been quite good, and I've been able to find joy in things, and I've done something and not thought, 'But would it have been better if Daniel had been here?'" And you go through all those anniversaries, you know? So the first year of, the first Christmas, the first birthdays, all of those things. That's, that's the, you know... Getting through those anniversaries is always tough for, for anybody who loses any, anybody of significance in their lives. Um, but with him, it was things like the 16th birthday, the 18th birthday, the 20... You know, there's all these big-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett26:19

      Mm-hmm.

   10. GLGabby Logan26:19

       ... kind of landmark occasions. And, and then you have your own children, and you start to look at hi- his life differently because when he, when my son got to 15 and was nearly 16, my kid's birthday is only a few days away from his birthday, I realized when my son turned 16... I realized that I'd been worried about him not being 16 (laughs) because, because Daniel never got there. So I, you know, I did, I did have a, a fear that I was gonna repeat history.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett27:05

       We're never, we're never taught how to grieve. No- nobody ever teaches us, us that, and I, and it's, it's cr- it's, it's a shame because, uh, going through your life and not experiencing grief in some form is, would be, it's almost impossible to do that.

   12. GLGabby Logan27:22

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett27:22

       And I think sometimes I, I worry about grief.

   14. GLGabby Logan27:26

       Because you haven't had enough?

   15. SBSteven Bartlett27:27

       Because I haven't had enough. And I also have this sort of impending feeling that it's coming.

   16. GLGabby Logan27:32

       Hmm.

6. 27:33 – 30:52

   Advice for someone going through something similar

   1. GLGabby Logan27:33

   2. SBSteven Bartlett27:33

      But when you look back at that moment, um, post-Daniel's passing, what do you think, what advice would you give to someone on how to properly grieve? Um, in hindsight with your wisdom now about that situation and how it transpired and how it stayed with you, is there anything you can say about how, how one grieves properly?

   3. GLGabby Logan27:54

      It's such a personal thing, grief, isn't it? Because it depends on your relati- your own relationship with death, you know, what, what you feel about mortality. How you feel about that person obviously is hugely significant. Also, what they did in their life. You know, I find myself, I've had lots of relatives, I think four who've lived to be 100, four or five. So I've been to funerals of people 105, and that was a joyous life, you know, and that was a great celebration. So I think it always depends on all those factors, those relationships. I think the one thing that I would say from our experience with Daniel, which was a life cut very short and very sudden, I think it's, and it doesn't matter if it isn't sudden, and I've wrestled with that as well, we all did about Daniel. Like, would it have been better if we'd known? What if he'd been ill and we had time to, to get our heads around it, would it have made any difference? And, uh, there's no right or wrong way, you know, to lose a child. There is no easy way to lose a child. But I think counseling and talking to people is really, really helpful for me. I found having somebody to process what was going on was really helpful. And finding kindred spirits as well, you know, people who've been through similar experiences. And you find them, without wanting to sound kind of too kind of woo-woo spiritual, but I think those people come, come into your life as well at the time that you need them, and then you've, you've got to be open to them being there. But when I met my husband, that was something we immediately connected on because he lost a cousin who was like a brother to him who was, um, he was in his 30s but had two small children, and my, my husband was only 19 when that happened. And, um, that, you know, that was a tragic accident, and again, a sudden death, and that devastated his, his young world. And I think if you have people in your world who, you know, you can talk to like that, I think it's really, really helpful.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett29:52

      I was, when you were talking about the, the week after Daniel's passing and the energy in the house and how it, it almost hadn't set in because you had...

   5. GLGabby Logan30:00

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett30:00

      ... this almost distraction.

   7. GLGabby Logan30:01

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett30:01

      There was things to do. There was other things...

   9. GLGabby Logan30:03

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett30:03

       ... to keep the brain on. So many of us, I mean, we distract ourselves after moments of trauma and grief...

   11. GLGabby Logan30:07

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett30:07

       ... in a number of different ways. But distraction, um, doesn't solve the problem, does it?

   13. GLGabby Logan30:12

       No.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett30:12

       It just kind of kicks the can down the road.

   15. GLGabby Logan30:14

       Yeah, and I think although, um, I did have experienced after that immediate kind of rush of energy that there was a silence and a, a, you know, time for sadness to come in. I did default...

   16. SBSteven Bartlett30:24

       Mm-hmm.

   17. GLGabby Logan30:24

       ... back into that kind of frenetic energy when I went to university, which was only a few months later. I became the queen of joining in, you know? So I would join every club that I could. I was in the drama society, the union society. I would, you know, "Can I join this netball team? Can I do this? Can I do that? Can, I've got my degree, I'm gonna get a job." You know, I was working at weekends. I, I filled every hour. And I love being busy, but there was definitely a sense of running away from, from what was going on, I think, in the background of my life.

7. 30:52 – 35:38

   How did your brothers passing change your perspective on life?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett30:53

      On top of that sort of, you know, workaholism-

   2. GLGabby Logan30:56

      (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett30:56

      ... um, how did Daniel's passing change your perspective of life generally? And, you know, I, I, when... I'll be honest, when I read, um, about the passing of Daniel, there was this real moment of pause when I was reading there alone. There was this moment of pause at the, the prospect that he was half my age and he suddenly, h- suddenly his heart stopped.

   4. GLGabby Logan31:17

      Hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett31:18

      And it made me think... Honestly, when I was reading it, it made, it, my brain went, "So anyone's heart can stop at any time."

   6. GLGabby Logan31:26

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett31:27

      Uh, they could be perfectly healthy-

   8. GLGabby Logan31:29

      Hmm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett31:29

      ... they can be an athlete, and their heart can just stop at any time.

   10. GLGabby Logan31:32

       Hmm. Hmm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett31:32

       And you sit there (laughs) like, feeling my own heart.

   12. GLGabby Logan31:34

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett31:34

       And I'm wearing this band that I wear-

   14. GLGabby Logan31:36

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett31:36

       ... I've been wearing for the last couple of weeks called-

   16. GLGabby Logan31:37

       Checking your heartbeat. (laughs)

   17. SBSteven Bartlett31:38

       It keeps... It tells me everything about my heart.

   18. GLGabby Logan31:40

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett31:40

       And this morning, it's funny 'cause it said my heart, my h... My, um, heart variability score is, like, way, way down and typically means you've been doing something stressful or exerting yourself too much. And I, I, as I saw... (laughs) It was like, there was like a, a five-minute difference between this heart warning that's flashing on my band and reading that in the book.

   20. GLGabby Logan31:56

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett31:57

       How did, how did the fragility of life-

   22. GLGabby Logan31:59

       Hmm.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett32:01

       ... um, and your experience of the fragility of life change your perspective on life itself?

   24. GLGabby Logan32:05

       I think two things. One, and it took me a while to correct this, I, in my head thought although I was busy getting, you know, getting busy and doing things and doing my degree and everything else, there was part of me that thought, "Okay, now terrible things can happen at any time." So my, so tomorrow another terrible thing could happen. And I was almost waiting for that next thing because if, if he can die and he's that healthy-looking, and he'd never complained about any chest pains, he was an athlete, like a proper athlete, you know, he just, he could run and run and run, if he can die like that, well, terrible things can happen all the time. But I didn't express this, but it was my, kind of, there was a feeling inside me that that was possible. So, so there was that, that part of the kind of the process, you know, was going on inside me, even though I was busy, I was expecting a terrible thing. And I had this therapist a few years later who she just looked at me one day and she we- 'cause I was obviously manifesting this or talking about it again, and she said, "Your shit thing's happened." (laughs) And now, then she... And, and that was such a powerful thing to say because although another shit thing can happen, of course, you know, it just, it stopped me. It kind of really stopped me in my tracks and I thought, "I've got to reframe this and stop thinking or stop believing that something else is coming down the tracks that I'm gonna have to deal with." And I'm not a natural worrier, so to be in that kind of state... So it wasn't worry, you know, it wasn't s- me sitting there thinking, "Oh, I'm not gonna cross the road 'cause a car's gonna come." It wasn't about taking risks, it was just a self-defense mechanism, ready for it. "I'm ready for it. Something's gonna happen and I'm, I'm ready. I can s-" you know. And so it wasn't I wanted to stop my life so I didn't, I didn't get hurt or, you know, people-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett33:43

       Mm-hmm.

   26. GLGabby Logan33:43

       ... I love didn't get hurt, but I wanted to be ready next time 'cause I wasn't ready the last time.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett33:47

       What's this... What, what other symptoms of that, of kind of expecting the worst-

   28. GLGabby Logan33:52

       A terrible thing to happen?

   29. SBSteven Bartlett33:53

       Yeah. What are the symptoms of i-

   30. GLGabby Logan33:54

       Um-
8. 35:38 – 39:53

   Your first step into broadcasting

   1. GLGabby Logan35:38

   2. SBSteven Bartlett35:38

      Age 19, Metro FM.

   3. GLGabby Logan35:40

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett35:41

      That's your sort of first step into, uh, broadcasting.

   5. GLGabby Logan35:45

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett35:46

      Very few people in this, in this world will ever reach the heights that you've reached in broadcasting, but so many of them would want to. I've met many, many young people that want to, to get to where you are in your career. Um, there's not a lot of seats at the table-

   7. GLGabby Logan35:59

      No.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett35:59

      ... at the very top. Um, so I'm trying to understand, in hindsight, how you got to that table. And I kn- nobody ever l- uh, likes asking the, answering these questions 'cause at some point you're gonna have to compliment yourself to some degree. You're gonna have to highlight something that's a good characteristic in yourself. And people don't, people feel uncomfortable with b-

   9. GLGabby Logan36:17

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett36:17

       ... with doing that for some reason, but, um-

   11. GLGabby Logan36:20

       'Cause we're not American. (laughs)

   12. SBSteven Bartlett36:21

       (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God, Americans, if I ask them that question-

   13. GLGabby Logan36:24

       (laughs)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett36:24

       ... not only do they, they tell me, but they... the story sounds amazing.

   15. GLGabby Logan36:27

       (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett36:27

       It's so, like, chance and they're a hero in the story and it's...

   17. GLGabby Logan36:31

       (laughs)

   18. SBSteven Bartlett36:31

       But when I ask British people, they're like, "Well, you know-"

   19. GLGabby Logan36:33

       No.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett36:33

       "... ask someone else." (laughs)

   21. GLGabby Logan36:35

       Yeah. Well, y- how often do you say the word, "Oh, I was very lucky"?

   22. SBSteven Bartlett36:37

       Yeah. (laughs)

   23. GLGabby Logan36:37

       Because I was very lucky and we-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett36:38

       Mm-hmm.

   25. GLGabby Logan36:38

       ... shroud it in this, this luck, you know, luck happened to us. And, and there is always an element of timing with things, isn't there? And I s- I got my break at Metro through meeting a guy at a New Year's Eve party the, the winter before I went to university, and I said to him, "I really wanna work in broadcasting." And he ran a radio station and he said, "When you come to Durham," which was nine months later, "make sure you come and see me and I'll give you some work experience." And I'd already done work experience on radio stations and newspapers, so I thought, "Oh, that...... so I waited about 10 minutes after arriving in Durham. (laughs)

   26. SBSteven Bartlett37:12

       (laughs)

   27. GLGabby Logan37:12

       And I went to a, a phone box, because we didn't have mobiles, and filled it with my 10 pence pieces and had to wait for the receptionist to put me through. And, and I remember standing in the rain in Durham, kind of waiting for him, and he said, "Oh, hello." 'Cause he was-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett37:23

       (laughs)

   29. GLGabby Logan37:23

       ... (laughs) I think he was quite surprised that, first of all, I was calling before Freshers' Week had even started, but secondly, he was probably going, "Hang on a minute, where did I meet you? What?"

   30. SBSteven Bartlett37:31

       (laughs)
9. 39:53 – 41:42

   Starting at sky

   1. GLGabby Logan39:53

   2. SBSteven Bartlett39:53

      And then eventually Sky call.

   3. GLGabby Logan39:55

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett39:56

      And you end up going to work for Sky Sports, and-

   5. GLGabby Logan39:58

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett39:59

      ... at 25 years old.

   7. GLGabby Logan40:00

      I was younger than that.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett40:01

      Oh, really?

   9. GLGabby Logan40:01

      I would've ... Yeah, 'cause it was a year after I'd joined Metro, which I, I would've been 22.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett40:05

       Oh, 23.

   11. GLGabby Logan40:06

       So 23.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett40:06

       Yes.

   13. GLGabby Logan40:06

       So I was 23 when I joined Sky Sports, so ... My dream had been to work in London. I wanted to leave, you know, the Northeast and find a job in London. So, when Sky Sports saw me doing touchline interviews at St. James' Park ... 'Cause by this point, I'd got a Saturday job, because the boss at the station could see I loved sport. And he was like, "Why don't you do touchline interviews at St. James' Park for us, um, on a Saturday?" Then Sky had seen me on the touchline and decided that they needed more women in front of camera, and asked me if I'd be interested in going down for a screen test. So I had basically a month where my life just turned, 'cause I had this sliding doors moment where I made the call straight away. I mean, as you've discovered with the call to Giles, I wasn't shy of picking up the phone and making the call. I made the call the next morning to the person I'd been told, to phone, and then within a couple of days, I was on a flight to London to go and see the, the boss at Sky and do the screen test. And then within a few hours, I think, of getting home that night, I got a phone call asking me if I'd go and work there and negotiating a package to go and work there. So, it was a really, really exciting kind of period of my life that I, you know, hadn't really planned. I didn't know how I was gonna get to London. I was, I was looking for, um, adverts in kind of, uh, broadcast and various places, you know, trying to find something that could get me there. And I rang up an agency, a talent agency. I looked at people whose careers I liked, and thought, "Oh, I wonder who they're managed by. I'll ring them." And they were very sweet, and said, "Oh, well, do come back to us when you've got some experience." 'Cause I had no experience. I had this little TV job in the Northeast, and I just didn't know how I was gonna get there. But I knew I had to for things

10. 41:42 – 46:52

    Advice for someone starting at the bottom of their career

    1. GLGabby Logan41:42

       to progress.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett41:43

       For, for anyone that's listening to this that has big dreams of, you know, going into certain industries, especially industries where there's, seems to be quite, um ... At the very top, it seems to be quite a small table.

    3. GLGabby Logan41:54

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett41:54

       When you look back at your own journey, and the decisions you made, the small things, in hindsight, there's the moments of sort of serendipity, um, what advice would you give to someone who is trying to get somewhere high, where at the very top of that tree is a, is quite a small table? What are the things that you did right, maybe accidentally or intentionally?

    5. GLGabby Logan42:13

       I think what I did through university, and that could b- could've been post-university, I worked so hard to ... I did shifts that were very unsociable. I was doing 3:00, 4:00 in the morning get-ups to go and do new shifts, and I did late night love shows. I did all the kind of things that, you know, are the unglamorous end of that job, because I was being offered the shifts, and I took them. And I had to juggle that with my law degree. But I, I innately felt that it was almost like I was doing an apprenticeship in what I wanted to do at the same time. And as well as earning me, you know, some cash as a student is always handy, but I was getting this experience. And the hours and hours and hours of doing that meant that when I did get the opportunity at Sky, and I, I, I was, felt confident about picking the phone up, because I knew I'd had all these hours. I wasn't just somebody who'd done a few shows and, you know ... Even if I'd just had the one year working there at post-grad, I don't think I would've felt as confident. But I knew I'd put those, those hours in. And I felt I wasn't gonna be, um ... I mean, we've all got an element of imposter syndrome, but I didn't feel I was gonna be out of place because I knew I'd had, um, all that-... that experience, those hours. So I think you've got to, you've got to put the groundwork in, you know, and not expect things to happen too quickly, in the sense of, you know, don't, don't over-force those-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett43:32

       Mm-hmm.

    7. GLGabby Logan43:32

       ... those things. That you'll feel the time's right. You know, you feel like, okay, I knew I was ready to move on about around that time. But in that year of post working full-time, it wasn't towards the end, until towards the end that I really felt I was ready. I knew that all that stuff I was doing was really important in building the, the, you know, the building blocks of your, of your career. So I think it's really important to, to put those foundations down. And you'll always benefit from that, you know. It's never a waste of time, taking an opportunity from somebody, saying yes to something. I said yes to things, I talk about them in the book, that I was nowhere near, in that year that I was working in, uh, local radio. I didn't know how to do it, but I said yes to stuff because I knew it was gonna give me experience. And, and then obviously when you find yourself somewhere like Sky, which is ... I was at the very much the bottom of the rung, you know, of the ladder, and I was learning again. I was starting to a, a new, a whole new set of experiences. Then you have to have that, um, hopefully I- I had a little bit of kind of humility and said, "Okay, I need to learn. I, I don't know what I'm doing here." (laughs) And, and then people will ... You'll find people who will be your teacher in that environment. So I think it's really important to ... I always like say to m- my kids about, you know ... It's the expression your mum would have said to you kind of like, you know, "Don't run before you can walk." Right? And, um, and it sounds really boring, 'cause everybody wants to run.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett44:50

       (laughs)

    9. GLGabby Logan44:50

       Everybody wants to get there quicker. And, and you can get there quickly, but you've just got to put some hours in first. And I think you'll stay there longer. (paper rustles)

    10. SBSteven Bartlett44:58

        This episode is brought to you by Mercedes-Benz, who recently got in touch to support the Diary of a CEO. Thank you. I'm a huge fan of their cars. In fact, I have one of my own, which is like an office on wheels. And they have an exciting wide range of cars that I'd love to tell you about. The Mercedes EQ is the luxury electric range of Mercedes-Benz, and it is available across many models from the SUVs to the saloons, meaning they're ideal for all business needs. The innovative next-generation technology found in all Mercedes EQ cars is really paving the way for the electric car industry. To make your electric car switch so much easier, Mercedes-Benz has a service called Mercedes me Charge. It's a subscription which provides you with access to a wide network of charging stations across the entirety of the UK. The app shows you the precise location and current availability and price at the selected charging station of your choice, and this enables businesses to effectively plan their route ahead of their journey. You can search Mercedes-Benz fleet today to discover how the Mercedes EQ car range can help your business get ahead. And if you already drive a Mercedes EQ, let me know how you find it. (paper rustles) Quick one from our longest-standing sponsor, Huel. I, I can't tell you over the last ... I'd say over the last ... Really, it's been about two and a half years, it was really, um, post-pandemic, how much my health has become such a huge priority in my life. And I have this laser, laser focused on what I'm putting into my body. It's funny, because as you get older, you can start to feel the things you're putting into your body more and more and more. Um, and if I, if I put something into my body, especially things like gluten, if I put those things in my body, I feel them tr- tremendously the next day, my energy levels, my sleep, and everything in between. Huel has been probably the most impo- important partner in my health journey, because I've been in the boardrooms, I've been to their offices tens and tens and tens and tens of times. I've seen how they make their decisions on nutrition, and I trust it. Most of my team that are in this room with me consume it and get the benefits of it too. So, if you haven't already tried Huel, do so. (paper rustles)

11. 46:52 – 50:19

    Working in a male dominated industry

    1. SBSteven Bartlett46:52

       Your next period of life was at Sky, um, which was, as you write about it in the book, a very sort of male-dominated, egotistical environment. How did that shape you? How did that impact you, go ... walking into Sky back in those days? I mean, everybody in football was a man, right? You say in the book, I think you say 90% of the, like, people behind the camera were men.

    2. GLGabby Logan47:14

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett47:15

       Um ...

    4. GLGabby Logan47:15

       It was a very male-dominated environment. And it was obviously very early, in the infancy of Sky. Sky was only a few years old at that point. The Premier League was only a few years old. So, a lot of Sky's early recruits, if you like, were from Fleet Street, the hard-nosed journalists who'd kind of done ... you know, pounded the shifts and gone kind of, you know, to all the, um, matches over the years and from ... and again, a very male-dominated environment. But it was tough. And I've talked a lot recently to people about the '90s. Not to do with my book, but just about how it was ... There was this thing happening in the '90s that you, you, you kind of went along with a bit and ... Actually, I don't really feel comfortable with it. I'm not a laddie, you know. I'm not ...

    5. SBSteven Bartlett47:54

       Mm-hmm.

    6. GLGabby Logan47:54

       There was this laddie culture and there was a drinking culture, and, um, it was all about th- the music of the time and everything else. And I think football was in this center of all of this as well, because of the, the newness of Sky and the newness of, uh, the Premier League. Um, and it would have been easy, I think, to, to lose yourself. And, uh, and there were times where I felt like I was trying to conform and, you know, be the person that, you know, was able to banter with the lads and have that kind of, you know, riffing and all of that. But it didn't make me feel very good, you know. I didn't really like that person, so, um, I was, I wasn't completely at ease with myself, I would say, there.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett48:36

       You write in the book that you didn't like yourself very much ...

    8. GLGabby Logan48:37

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett48:38

       ... during that period. "I didn't like myself very much, but I always seemed to forget that the next time I was drinking. The anger, disappointment, and self-doubt that such destructive behavior brings was coming home to roost."

    10. GLGabby Logan48:50

        Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, um, I wasn't very healthy. I'd gone from being somebody who had run half-marathons when I was in Newcastle, ate a really brilliant diet, to suddenly I was doing late shifts, eating badly, drinking more alcohol than I'd ever drunk when I was at university. And I wasn't a massive drinker. And suddenly, it was a bar culture, you know. It was kind of after a shift, go for a drink. Shifts would finish at 10:00. You shouldn't start drinking at 10:00, (laughs) you know.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett49:18

        Mm-hmm.

    12. GLGabby Logan49:18

        It's not a good time of day to start drinking. Weekends. I knew nobody when I first arrived in, in London. So, it was, um, you know, what, what's-... what's everybody doing? How, how do I get a social life, you know? Where do I go? What might, you know... So, so you'd be invited somewhere that would involve being in a bar or being involved in a club. And, um, and so I, yeah, I was slipping into kind of bad habits, and, um, I think there's part of me feeling like, "Oh, well, this, this is what it is to be an adult," you know? (laughs)

    13. SBSteven Bartlett49:47

        Mm-hmm.

    14. GLGabby Logan49:47

        "Is this how I, you know, is this how I behave now?" Um, and I was, there was a good 18 months really where I was putting on weight, didn't feel good about myself at all. And then that, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy almost, you know? And you kind of go, "Oh, well, I've, uh, put on weight now, I may as well just carry on eating the Magnums or I may as well carry on eating the, um, you know, drinking the, the Chardonnay." And, um, I wasn't, yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't happy, you know? I didn't enjoy that, but, um, but it just, it, it kind of became a habit, I guess, you know?

12. 50:19 – 55:54

    Sexism in the workplace

    1. GLGabby Logan50:19

    2. SBSteven Bartlett50:19

       Mm-hmm. In the, talking about the '90s, you know, it's, it's quite hard for us, for someone like-

    3. GLGabby Logan50:23

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett50:23

       ... myself to imagine the culture in, in an office and in a working environment at that time. When I was reading some of the, um, the quotes from the book about how you would walk through the office and someone would shout at you about who, who, which football player-

    5. GLGabby Logan50:37

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett50:37

       ... you've been sleeping with. Or someone comes up to you in the office and makes a comment about your ass and tell you-

    7. GLGabby Logan50:41

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett50:41

       ... tells you that it's gonna drop by the time you're 30.

    9. GLGabby Logan50:43

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett50:44

        Those things seem quite unthinkable in the modern working world.

    11. GLGabby Logan50:47

        I know, especially somebody of your age. And when I told my daughter, who's 17, she just, you know, it defies belief for her. And yet when I speak to people my age, they reminisce almost about... I spoke to an actress the other day who's the same age as me, and she was talking about things that people would say in auditions even and, you know. Um, and I think it's, it's really positive that you think that is so unthinkable, you know, because that means things have changed. And I think it's, um, amazing actually, kind of that for me, it doesn't seem that long ago, but actually, you know, it's a few decades ago, and society has changed. Our expectation of each other has changed. Our expectation of how we're to be treated in the workplace has changed. And that comes through representation as, as well, because those offices were very male-dominated, and I think there were very, uh, there were probably a lot of men in there that weren't comfortable with that. But they didn't feel they could speak up because of that culture that was there. And that's not healthy for any business or any environment, you know? I always quote, um, I made a documentary on women in football, and, um, I remember Karren Brady saying to me that, um, who's the CEO of West Ham, and her saying to me, "I never invest my own money in a company that doesn't have a woman on the board." This was about 14 years ago or 13 years ago, I made this documentary. And she said, "Not because I think that's gonna, you know, that I'm trying to make a point, but I know that that board is going to be more representative in terms of how it views its business-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett52:12

        Mm-hmm.

    13. GLGabby Logan52:12

        ... how it views its future, and its budgets and every- everything else, its plans for the business." So, I, I always remember that because when I look at that office, I think, "Well, how could this, how could that environment ever really have different voices and different opinions?" Because the big loud ones, the big loud kind of misogynistic ones were dominating everybody else. And, and people didn't feel they could speak up, you know? Didn't feel they could, they could talk. And it didn't look like society, it didn't look like a football terrace or it didn't look like, um, or how we perceive a football terrace to look now, which is people from different ethnicities and people from different backgrounds and different, um, sexual, um, orientation. All those different things that, um, that that office didn't represent. And that office was, as I say, not, uh, unusual. That would've been across many industries, how things looked. So, I think it's, it's really important that we have now more representation, diversity in everything that we do because of that. But, um, at the time, that was really normal. (laughs) So, you know, that wasn't, um, I didn't feel like I was in an unusual place. I didn't feel like, "Oh, I wish I, I wish I worked somewhere else where it was a bit"-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett53:15

        Mm-hmm.

    15. GLGabby Logan53:15

        ... "you know, people were a bit kinder."

    16. SBSteven Bartlett53:17

        Your podcast is called Midpoint, your book is called The First Half.

    17. GLGabby Logan53:21

        Mm-hmm. (laughs)

    18. SBSteven Bartlett53:22

        (laughs)

    19. GLGabby Logan53:22

        There's a theme going on. (laughs)

    20. SBSteven Bartlett53:23

        Yeah. (laughs) Wh- why?

    21. GLGabby Logan53:26

        Um, Midpoint came about, uh, as a lockdown project. I, it's something I'd been intending to do for ages and had the time, and it felt like I was in the middle of my life. And it happened while I was in a pandemic, and it felt very much like a time of introspection and, you know, asking yourself questions about, "What next?" What does it mean to go through this period where a lot of people start to experience, um, y- you know, the midlife crisis? A lot of people refer to which, you know, obviously in the sitcom, that's where the bloke gets, you know, some leather jeans and a Harley-Davidson and runs off into the sunset with somebody 25 years younger than him. Or, you know, or, um, Shirley Valentine flies off to Greece and finds her lover, you know? So you get these kind of very caricatured ideas of what midlife is, but for most people (laughs) , you know, they stay with their families and they, you know, they work through something that happens to them. And what I discovered with women is, uh, menopause, I didn't really know anything about it going into lockdown, and then I learnt a lot about it, and then I was having one. (laughs) And, and that is a huge topic of conversation that, you know, rightly has grown and become, uh, something that people are more aware of. But also it's, for me, it was more about the... I started off wanting to talk to people who'd done something different in midlife. So my first guest was John Bishop who, at 39, was selling pharmaceutical drugs, and at 40 was a stand-up comedian, which was a massive career change. And I liked the idea of doing something really different in the middle of your life and not feeling you have to keep going until the end with the thing that you've gone on, you know, the path to do. And it's, it's obviously fanciful to say that anybody can change their trajectory in midlife, because circumstances will dictate that you have to keep paying your mortgage or you have to keep, you know, uh, food on the table. So it's not possible just to stop and start something else. But I do like the idea that you can, you can make a change, because we're all gonna work so much longer than our parents, you know, had to, or our grandparents had to, just the way society's going. And you may as well do something that you really love and feel nourished by. So Midpoint came about really because of all those kind of things that I was thinking about, it was a self-serving project, you know? It was like, "I wanna talk to people who are doing interesting things." Um, and it's been really a-... a, a joy to do, you know, and to, to kind of, well, you know what this environment's like. It's a brilliant way to have a conversation. And you get to talk about things that you find interesting, and then the person you're talking to sparks interest in you as well. So, um, I'm about six series in, so I'm nowhere near as, you know, prolific as you, Steven. But obviously, it's, um, it's a kind of side hustle. (laughs)

    22. SBSteven Bartlett55:53

        Yeah. Well, it- it started

13. 55:54 – 56:00

    How true is the ‘midlife crisis?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett55:54

       as a side hustle in my bedroom, so (laughs) so it's crazy, it's crazy, um, you know, now we've got all these cameras, which is mad.

    2. GLGabby Logan55:59

       Yeah.

14. 56:00 – 1:00:34

    Your podcast and book Your book and podcast

    1. GLGabby Logan56:00

    2. SBSteven Bartlett56:00

       On that point of, um, the midlife crisis thing, is there any truth in that? Are there regrets that show up in, uh, you know, that you've seen from your conversations in midlife-

    3. GLGabby Logan56:09

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett56:09

       ... that, that were maybe not as obvious beforehand? Priorities change, values become clearer?

    5. GLGabby Logan56:15

       There is definitely something in it, in, in the midlife, um, change. You know, and I think the physical changes that all women go through shou- you shouldn't underestimate kind of how that can affect them and their families. And, and that's why a greater understanding of that is really important, especially, you know, women who've worked so hard in their careers and they, you know, the stories and the anecdotes that you hear about women just pulling themselves away from it because of the physical, uh, effects of, of menopause. And I have a really high-powered friend who's the, one of the top, she's one of the top hedge funders in the country, sits on the board of one of the biggest, and she said to me, "Well, I'm going on testosterone because there's no way I'm working this hard and letting a bloke come and take my job." So, testosterone is one of the hormones that depletes in, in, um, uh, midlife, uh, for women. So if you go on HRT, you could take progesterone, estrogen, and testosterone. W- people don't realize that women have testosterone, you know, and that they, they need it. And I was laughing because she was like, "As if I'm gonna kind of give up this," but actually, a lot of women do give up that career because of the feelings that they have of anxiety and low self-esteem, and you get brain fog. There's so many things physically that happen to women at that time. So I think that has an impact, obviously, on, on lives. But also, um, and then what I realized when I started looking into it, how many relationships break up, but not because actually those two people don't love each other anymore, but because if the woman's going through all of that and the man's feeling kind of like, "She doesn't love me anymore. What's going on?" You know, and they, the relationship breaks down because of a lack of understanding and communication. But also, I think because you've done the same thing. A lot of people have done the same thing for nearly 30 years. You know, if they've been on a traditional career trajectory, and then they feel bored or they f- need something to kind of, you know, give them a kick. And then there's the mortality question as well, because you suddenly look at your parents, and a lot of people in that age, their parents are, you know, in their 70s or maybe 80s and, and in- looking like they're nearing the end of their lives, and that makes you question, you know, the rest of your life. So there are so many issues that come up, and time to think as well, because your kids are getting to an age where they're not the same kind of demands on your time through them. So they're, they're flying, you know, they're doing their own thing, so you have time to think and space to think. So it is definitely, it's a thing.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett58:28

       That- that's what I think, think why I'm so intrigued by the topic, is how do I design my life now at 30 to try and, um, limit the effects of that mid- midpoint, um, confusion or dissatisfaction that s- people often experience and that you've kind of encountered there? One of the things that I suspect is gonna help is for me to stay really in touch with the things that I enjoy doing that I- I know, um, in no way pay me or provide for me professionally-

    7. GLGabby Logan58:57

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett58:57

       ... just like DJing and-

    9. GLGabby Logan58:59

       So for- for- f- your fulfillment-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett59:01

        Yeah.

    11. GLGabby Logan59:01

        ... you know, in life is not just from the things that earn you cash.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett59:06

        Yeah.

    13. GLGabby Logan59:06

        You know? And I think the m- the older you get, you realize how important those other things are. The hobbies-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett59:11

        Mm-hmm.

    15. GLGabby Logan59:11

        ... if that, you know, if that is a hobby, or if it's volunteering, you know, and I don't mean that just kind of working in a, you know, help the agent shop, but giving your talents to other people, mentoring people. Um, we do a lot, Kenny and I do a lot of stuff with various charities that we feel, you know, very passionate about, or, um, giving your time up to people. I think those things are really important, because as you become more financially secure, it is your time, isn't it, that's the most valuable, you know-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett59:37

        Mm-hmm.

    17. GLGabby Logan59:37

        ... kinda thing that you have? And, um, and if you can give your time to other people like that, it's- it's very, very rewarding. And- and then you find, you know, kind of passion projects as well that, things that you've felt in the past you haven't had time to commit to and that I want to. Now, Kenny, my husband, is really into being outside, you know? He's- he's loves making things and, um, like building things and doing things. So he'll literally be on a Zoom doing his business call, and then he'll realize he's got half an hour, and he'll go out and he'll be on his tractor kind of raking something and building something.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:04

        (laughs)

    19. GLGabby Logan1:00:04

        And, you know, that for him is how he is just loving his kind of midlife balance, you know? But he couldn't have done that 10 years ago when he was first really building his business. He wouldn't have, you know, he just wouldn't have worked. So I think you- you get to a stage where you also give yourself that time to do those things and allow yourself, you know, and you'll be, you know, you'll have so many other interests, business interests and things that have along the way have, you know, kind of given you great satisfaction. So I'm not worried about you having-

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:31

        Mm-hmm.

    21. GLGabby Logan1:00:31

        ... any kind of midlife, uh, crisis.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:33

        You said

15. 1:00:34 – 1:04:01

    Menopause

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:34

       you discovered you had, you were going through menopause-

    2. GLGabby Logan1:00:36

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:36

       ... um, at the age of 47?

    4. GLGabby Logan1:00:38

       Yeah, I th- I realized I had perimenopausal symptoms, because I didn't really know what it was. I just felt this sense of like, "Ugh, nothing feels as exciting anymore. Nothing feels as joyous. I'm not getting the same satisfaction out of stuff." And- and that was so not me. And then I did one of my podcasts, I was with Mariella Frostrup, and she started talking about the menopause. She's a bit older than me, and I was like, "Oh my God, these things, (laughs) these things you talk of, (laughs) I recognize them." And afterwards, she recommended, you know, I go speak to this doctor that she had seen, and um, and sure enough, I was bang in the middle of, you know, what- what was a physical, the physical manifestation obviously, uh, the menopause is eventually you stop menstruating. But before then, you have all these other things going on, low self-esteem, anxiety, brain fog, you know, and this is all to do with your hormones dropping off. All the jobs that these hormones did before, they no longer can do. And that includes also your immune system going down, and you know, and this is in the middle of a pandemic. So at that point, you, my immune system's low? (laughs) I don't want my immune system to be, you know, any weaker than anybody else's. So it was a good time-... to find out. And, uh, and I, you know, knowing that I could rebalance my hormones as well. And, um, I was so relieved when I did take HRT to feel myself again, because I had been feeling like... I remember one day having this absolute kind of family meeting, crisis meeting, pulling everybody to the table saying, "Right, nobody around here is pulling their weight," and really reading the riot act to everybody. And I was- And to the point where I got, like, they don't... I thought, "They're not taking me seriously." So I said, "If this carries on, I'm getting a flat in Beaconsfield (laughs) ," right? And, um, which is a little town near where we live. And they all looked at me like I'd gone mad because this had come from nowhere. And of course, the kids were, like, close to tears, and I was like, "Because I'm not gonna be..." And I realize now, I look back, and I was, I was just totally, you know, sad about kind of how I was feeling, and I just didn't feel I was, uh, you know, as, uh, um... I didn't have as much fight and tenacity and energy and, you know. And this was all menopausal symptoms really. Um, I mean, now with the hindsight and the, the distances between, you know, they laugh about that whole day, that was, that was the day where we realized (laughs) mom was having her menopause.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:46

       That was the...

    6. GLGabby Logan1:02:46

       But thank God I found out, right? And I didn't actually go and look at renting a flat in Beaconsfield to serve them all right. And, you know, it's a, it's a real perfect confluence when you have a woman in her late 40s and her kids are teenagers, 'cause their hormones are going crazy in the other direction, and they're going through puberty, and everything's happening the other way, you know? And so Kenny was very, um, he really wanted to know what was going on with me, so he'd listen to my podcasts, and he learned so much about the menopause from the female guest, Davina McCall, who's the, you know, doing so much great work in this space. And she was talking about it, and he came in one day, and he sat down, and he said to me, "I've just listened, I've been out on a dog walk, and I've just listened to Davina." And uh, he said, "Okay, so if you start taking HRT and your hormones kind of start going back again, you know, um, what happens to me? Are my hormones dropping off a cliff? How, you know, am I gonna..." I said, "No, no, no, men are different." And, and he kept going on about it. I said, "Look, just go and do a well man test or something because you need to satisfy yourself that you're okay," you know? And, um, it was through doing this well man test that he found out he had prostate cancer. So, um, his, his, his kind of, um, his motivation for doing it was to see if his testosterone was still kind of, you know, functioning at a high level. And they said to him, "Listen, don't worry about your hormones. They're fine. You've got to worry about your PSA." To cut a

16. 1:04:01 – 1:09:36

    Finding out your husband had cancer

    1. GLGabby Logan1:04:01

       long story short, he ended up having his prostate removed and, um, had prostate cancer. So, um, yeah, he, we, we, in terms of a mid-life (laughs) , a mid-life journey and a mid-life experience, there was a lot, a lot going on there, obviously, with regard to my, my journey kind of bled into him finding out something that he otherwise wouldn't have known, because unfortunately, prostate cancer is a cancer that you don't always get symptoms until it's too late. And as his urologist said to him, "If you'd had symptoms, we might be having a very different conversation."

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:34

       Wow.

    3. GLGabby Logan1:04:35

       Hmm. So, um, I'm forever grateful that I started my podcast, I think, because he wouldn't have had, we wouldn't have had that conversation.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:46

       It's a really scary thing to think about in hindsight, if those dots hadn't-

    5. GLGabby Logan1:04:49

       Hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:50

       ... sort of connected in such a way.

    7. GLGabby Logan1:04:50

       Because like most blokes, this is the thing, and he, this is why he did a, he did a podcast episode talking about it. Like most blokes, and especially one, he played international rugby, right? You know, he played 70 times for his country. He was used to giving his body a battering and giving his body, putting his body through it. And so he's living with some of the ramifications of that, you know. He has to really look after his back and his core. He's very lucky he didn't really break too many bones. But, you know, he knows he has to look after his body 'cause he put it through a lot. So when he does have aches and pains and things, he often, like a lot of men, just ignores them because he thinks that's part of, you know, what he'd done to himself before, and that's part of, you know, his sporting life. And this year, he lost one of his very best friends who he played for Scotland with who'd, who'd done just that, who'd ignored a lot of those things, thinking it was old injuries, and it turned out he had bowel cancer, and he died. And that was a, for him, just, you know, a huge, a huge sense of gratitude that he, he had found out but also a reason for him wanting to talk about it, because men can be really rubbish at that, you know? And it's, and it's something that I think we talked about, masculine kind of identity and earlier on about, you know, my dad when he was younger and how he, um, the self-preservation and wanting to, you know, keep things in in public. And actually, that's, a lot of that is, is men not always sharing those things, so, and not having those conversations candidly. And when he did that on the pod- on the podcast, um, the response from men has been amazing to him, you know, and I think it's partly because he's perceived to be somebody who is a tough rugby player. So if he can talk about it, okay, I can go to the doctor, and I, I can ask them a few questions.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:27

       Am I right in thinking prostate cancer is the cancer that takes the life of most men?

    9. GLGabby Logan1:06:31

       Yeah, 12,000 men a year. Most- It's the cancer, the biggest cancer killer of men.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:35

        He does that wellness, well man test.

    11. GLGabby Logan1:06:37

        Mm-hmm.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:39

        He eventually goes and has a, a test done for prostate cancer, I guess, and then he gets the verdict back.

    13. GLGabby Logan1:06:45

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:46

        You've been through grief before. You've been through loss before. In fact, we, when we s- talked about, you know, your earlier years, you kind of had that sense of impending doom.

    15. GLGabby Logan1:06:54

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:54

        When he makes that phone call to you, when you have that conversation with him, what, what is that like? What's going on in your head?

    17. GLGabby Logan1:07:01

        So he had, um, a Zoom set up with his, um, urologist because it was at the early part of this year when we were still not really... You know, there was that-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:09

        Yeah, COVID, yeah.

    19. GLGabby Logan1:07:10

        ... COVID surge, and, and he said, "Okay, don't come in. I'll do a Zoom with you and Gabby together." And I had made an appointment, uh, or a meeting rather, with, uh, the head of a production company I was gonna be working with to come to the house at 11:00. So Kenny said, "He's calling at 10:30." I said, "Yeah, great, fine, 10:30." I was not expecting anything other than, "You're absolutely fine." You know, I did not expect negative news, didn't expect him to hear anything other than, "Come back to me in a year, we'll keep an eye on it," you know? And, um, otherwise I wouldn't have made an appointment with somebody at 11 o'clock. And-And when the, his urologist told him, I think we both were just s- he... I think Kenny was more expecting it than me. I, I very much was like, "You're gonna be absolutely fine, you know. You, look at you, you're a picture of health and, you know. You, you were on your Wattbike, pushing out massive watts yesterday, you know, and you're, you're great." And, um, we were shocked, stunned, because y- you don't, you don't know what that means, you know. How bad is it? Where has it gone? All those things. And, um, and I think Kenny was, uh, really very sad, you know. He was just, like, could feel sadness in ... Because he said, "I feel so well. I, I feel sad that inside me this is happening and I don't know about it." And he, you know, it was very confusing. And also, it's very tied in with your masculinity, you know, kind of the prostate, and so he was, he was really, really upset and ... As you can imagine. And I, I just thought, "Right, no. This, we're gonna sort this. This is gonna be absolutely fine." And, you know, how, "What do we do?" You know. I kind of, "What, what are the answers here?" And his urologist was very ... was brilliant. He's a brilliant communicator, and told us what the options were, and I said, "We just gotta get a plan. You gotta get a plan together, 'cause you need, you need to know what you're doing, and, and then we'll be positive and we'll just kind of keep being positive about it." And, um, and that's what we did really. You know, once he'd got over the initial shock, we just really kind of focused on it as, um, a project that we had to, to deal with. And, um, it's a bloody awful operation, you know. You get in s- basically six stab wounds in your torso, and it is really invasive and it's a horrible thing to see him in, you know, the pain he was afterwards. It's a horrible thing to go through. But he's doing really, really well now, and you know, he's ... He just said to me last night actually, when we were about to go to sleep, he said, he said, "We've done really well, haven't we?" 'Cause he said, "People keep saying to me, like, 'How are you?' Well, how's ..." You know. And he said, "We've done well." I said, "We've done well." You know, 'cause he's, he's good. The kids have been great throughout it. We've been through, you know, something that kind of unifies you, I think, as a family, you know, can really solidify you as a family. So, um, we're very lucky.

Episode duration: 1:22:41