Gary Neville: From Football Legend To Building A Business Empire | E170

Gary Neville 0:00 That's making me a little bit upset. (sighs) Gary Neville! (crowd roars) Fantastic, incredible man. It's the owners of that business. It's really simple. Joke. I don't think anyone can believe it.

Steven Bartlett 0:13 One of the things that people don't know about you is just the scale of your business portfolio. It's quite honestly mental.

Gary Neville 0:20 The only thing you can ever do in life is work as hard as you possibly can and never give in.

Steven Bartlett 0:24 What is the cost?

Gary Neville 0:26 I basically collapsed to the floor and had a fit. I went to the hospital, I had checks, and then found that I needed to slow down a little bit and had stopped doing the things that kept me well, and I'd just run myself into the ground. So I knew at that- that point then, I needed to see somebody.

Steven Bartlett 0:40 Manchester United are failing.

Gary Neville 0:43 I do feel sorry for the current players. And that won't go down well with a lot of Manchester United fans. These players go out onto the pitch now, they feel alone. But that's where I'm a little bit critical of Cristiano. You're the star. Now is not the time to be throwing your arms around. Now is the time to make sure you lead those people. Resilience and robustness and hard work can be taught and learnt. I don't think it's something you're born with. From the minute I joined at 11 to the minute I left at 36, Manchester United got everything out of me. Everything. Of all the people that I always talk about having the influence on my life, I never mention my mum and her mum and dad. They're far better people than I am. That's making me a little bit upset. (instrumental music plays) (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 1:28 So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays) We are a normal working-class family. There are no famous sporting ancestors in our- in our family, yet somehow we won a combined 218 caps for our country at football and netball between us. Tracey

Steven Bartlett 1:56 Neville MBE, your sister, went twice to the Commonwealth Games and World Championships, representing England 74 times, and coached the national team. How and why is that possible, that three siblings in a family reach sport- sporting greatness when there isn't a long lineage of, you know, "The grandad was at Manchester United, this person was at this club and they opened doors for me"?

Gary Neville 2:24 (tuts) (sighs) I don't know really. I mean, I- I- I'll start at the end because I was having a conversation yesterday about, um... It was actually, how long should you take off after you've had a baby as a couple, whether it be the- the man or the woman. And I was thinking about my sister, and she took, like, two or three weeks off and then she was back at it. And also, my father passed away seven years ago, and on the morning of his funeral, I went and presented, uh, our project St. Michael's at a council meeting, and then went and got ready at home and went to his funeral straight after it. And someone said to me, "It's not normal that." And- and- and my sister... My dad passed away in Australia whilst he was- whilst he was watching my sister play for the Commonwealth Games. And, uh, me and my brother flew straight over there. My sister was still coaching the team. She never broke stride. And he was on a ventilator keeping him alive, even though he'd actually, to be fair, passed away, and they were just waiting for us to get over. The day after we got there, my sister said, "I've got a game tomorrow. We can't pronounce that he's actually dead until after I finish the game and I come back to the hospital." And when I think of that, that's the end... I suppose, in terms of that sort of that feeling of just that drive, that commitment to what we do, it- it... uh, people say it's not normal. Someone said to me, they say it's not normal that, that we would continue our lives irrespective of... And that probably came from my dad and from my mum. But I think of it as in different layers for me personally. I don't know what it was like for my sister or my brother. But for me personally, I think of it as being the first layer was my mum and dad, their love for sport, their commitment to get there early, to do things. My dads used to say, "Get up early, get there early, get your job done." And then when I got to United, I'm hit by Nobby Stiles, Brian Kidd, you know, Manchester United European Cup winners of 1968, and then Eric Harrison, a northern, tough Yorkshireman who, every single day, drilled us about what it was to be a Manchester United player. And then you're exposed to Sir Alex Ferguson and Roy Keane and Peter Schmeichel and Mark Hughes. So these different layers of, you know, monstrous mentalities of people who are just massive leaders, we've been exposed to them. I was exposed to them. And that's why I always say that resilience and robustness and hard work can be taught and learnt. I don't think it's something you're born with. And I think when you say, like, "How did we achieve that?" I just think we're very fortunate with our parents and the exposure that we had to brilliant leaders throughout our career and examples and the s- the standard-bearers that were next to us.

Steven Bartlett 5:00 Learning through words, those words that your dad would say to you about getting up and getting at it every morning, is a great way to learn. But actions, I think, in hindsight seem to be the best way to- to really learn those lessons vicariously from observing our parents and how they're behaving in their lives.

Gary Neville 5:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:15 I rem- I ne- I'll never forget the day that I saw my mum... My mum stopped coming home and then I asked my dad where she was and she said, "Oh, she sleeps in the back of a shop now," this corner shop she was running. And then going there and seeing this bag of rice that she was sleeping on that had all these m- rat holes in it from where-

Gary Neville 5:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:27 ... the mice and rats had been eating it. That visual of that she was working that hard, even though she didn't have to, to support our family, so that she was sleeping in the back room every night and not coming home, was- was a lesson that I learnt without her saying a word.

Gary Neville 5:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:41 What are the lessons that you learnt from your... 'Cause, uh, you cited your dad there-

Gary Neville 5:44 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:45 ... as being pretty in- in, um, a- a pretty go-get 'em person. How was he functioning professionally that taught you these lessons?

Gary Neville 5:53 He was a lorry driver and he- he basically worked for Constellation Luggage, which was just luggage, you know, suitcases. And he had to do three drops a week at Daventry, which is south of Birmingham. And...He had to get them there basically by the end of Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. But we had a... We lived in a two up, two down terraced house. And every time my dad got up, you can hear your dad get up when you're young, you just, you just hear it because it's obviously the, you know, lights come on, and you hear the sort of noise, the f-floorboards are creaking. And we always get up early as a family anyway. But at four or five o'clock, you'd hear my dad... We lived in the back. We were in the back bedroom and his, his lorry, his wagon was parked at the back. What if he was doing to do a drop the next day? And he'd leave at four or five o'clock in the morning on the Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. He'd take the suitcases. He'd wait for the depot to open at sort of seven, eight o'clock, drop them off, and he'd be back and have his job done by 11 o'clock. And then he'd start to go and do his, what would be his commercial work, the fundraising for testimonials. The thing that he loved for say, for instance, Lancashire County Cricket Club was that was his passion, and that's how he got into Bury Football Club as a commercial director and into foot-... Because he had, he had a sales mentality, my dad. But he'd get his main job done by 11 o'clock every single morning, he'd be at Daventry and back in a lorry. And then, after school, he'd take us to football, and he'd take us to cricket. So the amount he fit into a day was unbelievable. You know, he'd almost do two jobs. He'd do his job, which was his main job, which was earning him his money, which was a lorry driver. He'd then come and do the job which would be potentially could he do some sort of like side job selling for Lan-Lancashire County Cricket Club or Greenmount Cricket Club. He did, he organized dinners and events and things like that. And then, his family would come after school where he'd, he'd put them into sport, and we'd go to United in the evening or we'd go... Um, we were at United from 11:00, 11:00 Monday and Thursday night. So this constant drive of trying to fit as much as you possibly can in the day, and that's where I sort of, the attack of the day, was from my dad, "Get up. Get there early. Let's make sure we're there." Even at United, we'd get there early on Saturday. There would never be any risk with time of being late. I feel sometimes that that is a good thing. It's, it's put that into us. But sometimes to live by that now, particularly at the age I'm at, sometimes you sort of think, "Ugh." It's hard to keep up.

Steven Bartlett 8:13 (sighs)

Gary Neville 8:13 Yeah. It's hard to keep on doing it, and you wonder now, particularly what we know now, whether it's the right thing. My dad had heart problems at a very early age, at the age of 42. You know, he's a lorry driver. You know, he liked to go for a beer. He liked a night out. He did too much. He got stressed. All the things that I do now. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 8:31 Yeah.

Gary Neville 8:32 So he thinks... There's a lot I can see in my dad of me, um, but I don't think I can change it really.

Steven Bartlett 8:37 What is the

Steven Bartlett 8:38 cost? Because for everyone's... I sat here with Tim Grover, who actually coaches a lot of the young United players now.

Gary Neville 8:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:43 Co- coached Michael Jordan and, and, um, Kobe Bryant for a, a-

Gary Neville 8:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:46 ...span of 15 odd years he was their best sold coach. And he said, "For everyone's greatness, the thing that causes their greatness..." In your case, you know, that drive and that ruthlessness and that dedication caused you to become a Manchester United legend and all these other things.

Gary Neville 8:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:59 But what is the cost on the other side that people don't, don't see? From he, he referred to it as we have our light side, and we have our dark side. The dark side is a consequence, an ir- er- unavoidable consequence of the light side.

Gary Neville 9:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:10 What was that dark side for you and your dad?

Gary Neville 9:13 Um, health, I think. And I've seen that in the last couple of years with myself. I think, um-

Steven Bartlett 9:20 Physical health?

Gary Neville 9:22 No. I've had... I, I, I... I've said this, to be fair, on something that I've done myself in the last week on the overlap. Um, I actually, to be fair, um... Raheem Sterling scored a goal in the, uh, European Championships against Germany a year and a half ago, and I basically collapsed to the floor and had a fit. And after that, I went to the hospital to have checks and then found that, you know, I needed to slow down a little bit basically. And it's sim- it's similar things to what my dad was told in his 40s, that, you know, ultimately, I do too much. I think too much. I need to relax more. You know, to be fair, my wife says it quite often, "You're here, but you're not present."

Steven Bartlett 10:10 (laughs) Christ, have I done? (laughs)

Gary Neville 10:11 (laughs) Do you get that?

Steven Bartlett 10:12 Oh, my God.

Gary Neville 10:13 So... A-and also, there was an inter- I was doing an interview the other day and, uh, it was with Geoff Shreeve. Geoff's known me 15, 20 years. And he said, "The problem is when I'm asking you a question, you've got my question inside the first two seconds." Let's say it's a ten-second question. "You've got my question inside the first two seconds. The next eight seconds, you're thinking about what you're doing after. I can see it in your eyes already." And he's right. Don't... S- even during this interview, I'm speaking, and sometimes I lose my way in an interview and I actually forget what the question was. And quite often, I'll say like, "What was the question?" If I'm on a stage doing like a Q&A, "What did you actually ask me?" Because I've actually drifted off whilst I'm answering the question to something that I need to do later and it's I'm never present. So the, the consequences that maybe... I remember Sir Alex saying to me he missed his children growing up. I am missing my children growing up. That's a consequence of my life. I've been in London for four days, you know, but what can I do? I've got... I come down to Brentford-Manchester United. I then stay down Sunday because I don't... I can't get a train back. Trains... There was a train strike. And then I'm down doing Monday night football and I'll go back today. Last week, I was down for another four days, but it's what I do. I love what I do. I wouldn't change it. But this afternoon, I'll get back to Manchester, and I've got meetings till 6:00. And then tomorrow, it's I'm full all day. Thursday, I'm in Glasgow doing a dinner with Sir Alex Ferguson. So it is a constant sort of every single day that I feel like I'm filling days with things that I love and want to do, but then you say to yourself, you do have those odd moments more now, "Why am I doing all this?" And why are you doing this now? You love doing it maybe. You know, it's what you enjoy. But you sometimes have those moments, don't you where... I have more of those moments where I think, "Why am I doing those? Why have I got two hotels? Why have I got a football club? Why have I got a university? Why have I built an overlap channel? I'm already on Sky. Why am I doing these things?" But it's, it's that idea of, I suppose, cramming as much into your life as possible, thinking you've just only got this sort of short period of time. And Brian Kidd used to say to us, "Get your pace early. You can't make it up at the end." And we used to sprint.... and sprint in our runs, and sprint. And that mean if you collapsed at the end, and you didn't quite finish it or whatever, it's better than managing yourself and thinking, "I'll save a little bit." We'd... I have to say, the players that I played with at Manchester United, we never saved anything. It was all left out there on the pitch. And I th- I think that's how our, our lives are since as well, we just leave everything out there on the pitch. There's nothing saved, so we just end up, I suppose, saturating every single second of every single day.

Steven Bartlett 12:42 I used to think that I was driven. I used to think that, you know... And that sounds like a very good framing, "I'm driven, I'm motivated." I thought that's what was... 'Cause y- you said, right, why am I doing this? After I do this podcast, there's maybe, you know, 10 other companies that I'm running. I have zero time in the day, and then I try and cram in-

Gary Neville 12:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:57 ... my girlfriend and my family and do a very bad job of that.

Gary Neville 12:59 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 12:59 I used to think it's because I'm driven and I'm just whatever. And then I asked myself a question, which I... When I met Eddie Hearn, I, I saw the same thing. I mean, his book is called Relentless.

Gary Neville 13:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:07 Are we really driven or are we being voluntarily driven, by as in we're making the choice to drive towards something, or are we being involuntarily dragged by some kind of insecurity or some kind of discomfort with the prospect of not being busy? 'Cause for me, I'm convinced these days that I'm probably being dragged by an insecurity.

Gary Neville 13:26 Maybe. Maybe.

Steven Bartlett 13:27 That I developed at a very young age.

Gary Neville 13:29 Yeah, maybe. I'm not sure. I don't, I don't know. I don't... I don't-

Steven Bartlett 13:32 'Cause could you stop?

Gary Neville 13:33 I don't feel... Uh, not sure. 'Cause this idea that, you know, if you stop, it'll kill you and all that sort of stuff.

Steven Bartlett 13:38 Slow down.

Gary Neville 13:39 Slow down. I do feel like I need to slow down. I read a book, I think. I can't remember what it was, a few, a couple of years ago, where it talked about you can never really retire if you love work and you are relentless. But what you can have is mini retirements during the year, and that's what I've tried to do. I don't do it very well. So I'd... For instance, this weekend, I'm going to Spain Friday till Monday morning. I call... That's like a mini retirement. So-

Steven Bartlett 14:03 That's a weekend. (coughs)

Gary Neville 14:04 It's a weekend. It's a mini retirement. It's where I basically can say for three days I'm there and I'm, I'm basically taking a... You know, I don't think about work. Now, I will, but... And sometimes when my best, my best ideas come when I'm on these types of trips. But then in six weeks, I'll have another mini retirement for five days or four days. Rather than thinking you're gonna stop for six months and sort of have a sabbatical, that's not probably gonna happen with people like you or I, because we just basically don't work that way. So to have lots of mini retirements during the year is what I've tried to do in the last few years. I'm not sure I'm doing it very successfully. I'm not sure what's wrong with us, if that's what you're asking, (laughs) is there something wrong with us?

Steven Bartlett 14:40 Yeah.

Gary Neville 14:40 I don't feel insecure or vulnerable. I don't feel insecure or vulnerable at all. I feel, I feel s- I feel so confident and I feel... Not confident, I feel like I've got coping mechanisms to be able to deal with things. So I, I... There isn't any criticism. There's very, very little criticism that I receive now that even touches the sides of me. And I get criticized heavily on social media, through my football punditry, my opinions, whatever it may be. Because what I went through at United, losing that confidence at the age of 24, post-treble, going through that difficult patch where I didn't want the ball, seeing the psychiatrist on my own, only the doctor knew, not talking about it till I was 35. But what that psychiatrist gave me was coping mechanisms and perspective, and I, I just asked m... You know, if I go through a difficult moment now, I ask myself the question, "Will I come out of it the other side, did I expect every day to be a good day?" No, I don't expect every day to be a good day. So when the bad day comes, and it's a really bad experience, or you have a... make a bad business decision... Did you think you would make every decision would be a good decision in business? No, it wouldn't be a good... You're not gonna make the right decision every single day. You're gonna have bad decisions, bad choices, bad days. So when they come now, I can put them into perspective and move on really comfortably. So I feel like I'm... I don't feel vulnerable or insecure and I'm not quite sure sometimes. You know, people say I've got a strategy, I've got a plan. Not quite sure any of us have, really.

Steven Bartlett 16:01 (laughs)

Gary Neville 16:01 Because the reality of it is we don't know what door's gonna open next. You don't know six years ago or five years ago that Dragon's Den is gonna come and knock on your door. You don't know that. You haven't got a clue. Or 10 years ago, certainly. You don't know that's gonna happen in your life. But when the knock on the door comes, you think, "I fancy f- walking through that door." And probably the same with me when things have happened in my life, where I thought, "I didn't expect that to come. Yeah, I'll, I'll take that." So we are probably being dragged. It's a little bit like jumping off. You go skiing, you're off the sort of, go off the sort of black slope. Y- H- There's no way out of it, you're going down and you can't stop. And it's a little bit like, you know... I feel like, to be fair, my life's a little bit like a black slop- a black slope in skiing. You know, y- I've gone over the edge, I've started, what can I do now? Slow down, say to my businesses, say to the teams that I work with, "Sorry, I don't fancy this anymore." Well, thanks for that, but you've... We're here still. What, w- what's gonna h... I've got no choice. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:59 "I've got no choice." (laughs)

Gary Neville 16:59 You've got no choice. We're in.

Steven Bartlett 17:01 Do you know what? (laughs)

Gary Neville 17:02 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 17:03 Um, y- I read this book called The Body Holds the Score, and I was actually speaking to one of my best friends yesterday who was a extreme workaholic, and then he started having panic attacks. He ended up-

Gary Neville 17:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:12 ... in hospital. And he said to me, he said, "I felt fine." But the body goes, gives out first.

Gary Neville 17:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:17 The body will... You know, when the mind is telling you, "No, you can cope with this. You're doing fine," the body will show you in a pretty, um-

Gary Neville 17:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:23 ... drastic fashion that you're not okay and that you need to listen to, to, to yourself. Ever since you, you collapsed on that day-

Gary Neville 17:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:30 ... have you made changes? Honestly.

Gary Neville 17:32 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 17:33 'Cause I'm gonna ask-

Gary Neville 17:34 I have-

Steven Bartlett 17:34 I'm gonna ask you, I'm gonna ask Emma. (laughs)

Gary Neville 17:37 I, I did. I did. I, I, I ha- I have, I think. But then it's the actual sustain- it's sustaining the changes and not dipping back into your old habits. That's the problem. That's... So what do I do? I train four or five times a week. I wasn't tr- always training pre-that. Um, I try... I've got a sleep ring.

Steven Bartlett 18:01 Yeah.

Gary Neville 18:01 And it focuses me more on the time I need to sleep at night and... But then I don't always wear it now. You know, it's a couple of years later. It's in my bag. It's here and I didn't wear it last night, and I'm annoyed with myself 'cause I didn't wear it last night 'cause I forgot to put it on when I got back. So habits, really, that sort of... Do you drift back into your old habits? Um, I try not to pick my phone up when I first wake up, but I fe- I'm failing miserably at that.

Steven Bartlett 18:25 Same.

Gary Neville 18:25 I'm failing miserably. But I have taken email off my phone, I've taken WhatsApp off my phone.

Steven Bartlett 18:30 Mm. Hmm.

Gary Neville 18:30 ... because they're things that I think were ... Emails, if, I think if you wake up to an email at 4:00 in the morning that's an email that's not a great email. Let's say it's something that you think, "I've got to deal with that," you aren't getting back to sleep. So if I have to take an email off my phone, it's only on my iPad. It helps. WhatsApp, I mean, WhatsApp announced last week that they were gonna sort of, this idea that y- y- you couldn't, um, you couldn't be joined in groups and people didn't know when you were online. I just felt like it was an intrusion, WhatsApp. I felt like people were attacking me. A constant attack of added to groups and they see that I'm online and things like that. And I thought, "Oh, no, get off, get away from me." So I just do iMessage now, um, and I say to people, "Ring me." So there have been changes that I've made that are, are helpful because I do feel email is ... I love speaking to people. So I lived in a dressing room where the camaraderie ... We didn't email each other at Manchester United. Sir Alex Ferguson didn't email me. We had a brilliant team spirit in the club. We were there every single day. We spoke to each other. We socialized with each other. We'd help each other. We knew each other. And that's how you build a team spirit and I felt sometimes email can be ... I know it needs to happen in businesses. I know that you need to see attachments, I know you need to communicate with each other, but I do believe that they can be quite damaging to culture sometimes, particularly if the wrong tone is on the email. I think you can be misin- misunderstood on email. I think it can come across harsh. I think they can put pressure on people and I realized that the first five years out of football. I was emailing people five, six o'clock in the morning. But you imagine, you know, you emailing people at five, six o'clock in the morning, the impact that that's gonna have on them when they wake up. "Ugh, I've got to deal with that now because I emailed them back." It's like, that's not fair. It's not right. So I have made quite a few changes but probably not enough.

Steven Bartlett 20:21 Yeah. I, I completely agree. I don't. I'll be hon- ... And people, this will surprise people, I look at my emails once a week.

Gary Neville 20:26 Oh, wow.

Steven Bartlett 20:26 And, uh, so my, my assistant looks at my inbox and then if there's, she puts them on my list and then I go to my list when I'm ready.

Gary Neville 20:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:32 And also with all my WhatsApps and all that stuff, all notifications off. And it's just for me trying to take back control of-

Gary Neville 20:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:38 ... my time. So I choose when I go to it. It doesn't notify me that, that it needs me now.

Gary Neville 20:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:42 And I used to have email dread.

Gary Neville 20:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:44 You know, early mornings, especially when you're running a big company. You've got what, 600 employees or more?

Gary Neville 20:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:49 S- there's always gonna be something wrong.

Gary Neville 20:51 There is. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:52 And it s- it doesn't care what time or occasion it's gonna interrupt you.

Gary Neville 20:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:55 There's always gonna be ... And I don't want that anxiety in my life.

Gary Neville 20:58 But also, if there is a problem and something's gone wrong, then just ring.

Steven Bartlett 21:02 They can call you.

Gary Neville 21:02 Yeah, ring me. Just ring me. Y- anyone can ring me and just say, "Look, I've got a problem," and then we, we drop everything, don't we?

Steven Bartlett 21:07 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 21:08 I, I always feel like it's the biggest responsibility I have is to the people that I work with. And if they ring me and they're, they're in trouble, they've got a problem, we have to deal with that. That's the absolute immediate.

Steven Bartlett 21:18 You always ... L- going back to your early years i- in football and as you came through the ranks, you, you always, and I've seen this in multiple interviews, kind of are a little bit self-dispar- disparaging about your own abilities.

Gary Neville 21:28 My talents? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:28 Yeah.

Gary Neville 21:29 I just played with brilliant players, didn't I? I mean, if you think about it, just go through the players who I played with, Jaap Stam, you know, Denis Irwin, Peter Schmeichel, Roy Keane-

Steven Bartlett 21:38 But that's not enough to, to-

Gary Neville 21:40 ... David Beckham, Cristiano Ronaldo, Dwight Yorke, Eric Cantona, every single one of them had more talent and ability than I did. You know, it just, they just did. It's, it was just obvious around me. I wa- when I got to United ... The thing is, the thing you said about insecurity, the only time that I ever felt insecure was when I got to United at ... I got to United at 11 and I joined at 11. And there was Center of Excellence group and then we got retained every single year, but at 14 is where it gets really serious and they sign, they signed the sco- the schoolboys and the out-of-town lads come in. So all of a sudden you're exposed to them, to Beckham, to Scholes joined at 14, all these brilliant players, and you think, "How am I gonna survive here?" I could just, you, you ... I'm aware, I know my own abilities, um, and I had to, I had to just do things differently. I was a midfield player, then I was a center-back, then I ended up at right back. You know, there is an element of truth in what Carragher said, "No one wants to grow up to be a Gary Neville," meaning no one wants to grow up to be a full-back. Everyone when they're a kid scores goals or sets up goals and then you find out that you're not good enough to do that and you get pushed back of the team. That's what happened with me. I was one position away.

Steven Bartlett 22:44 (laughs)

Gary Neville 22:44 I, that was the last, my last hope, right-back. You know what I mean? (laughs) I was out the team if I couldn't play right back.

Steven Bartlett 22:49 (laughs)

Gary Neville 22:49 I'd, I'd gone from center midfield as an 11, 12-year-old at United, then center-back from 14 to 18, and then told I wasn't, I wasn't good enough by my reserve team coach to be a center-back at United 'cause Steve Bruce and Gary Pallister were there, and then I go to c- to right back. So y- you are aware that you're being pushed out of your positions by better players and that that's your only route to success, is hard work and playing at right back and trying to adapt to that. And then it was good enough for me in the end, but, you know, it's, no it's not disparaging. I, I knew the game. I o- I could organize. I knew the game well. I read the game well. And, um, on the pitch, I would never, ever, I would never give in. So the, around me, this idea of being able to organize the team. I could see the game in front of me, so I had an impact. I believe I had an impact on the other players that I played with beyond my talent, through my understanding of the game and making sure that I never stopped going and we never stop going. We keep going. We just keep pushing forward. So if we're fighting for a goal, uh, you know ... I always think it was that ... I never go into this l- level of grandiozity. I've probably never said this before. When people say to me, "What's the greatest moment in my life?" Right, I say it's the final in '99 in the Nou Camp when we won the treble. But that ... I, I made a run from right back. I got the corner for the first goal 'cause I went o- I ra- sprinted over to the left wing and took the long throw to put it into the box. It came back out to me and we got the corner. It's not an assist by any stretch of the imagination. It typifies my career of seven goals and very few assists. I am no Trent Alexander-Arnold or nor even a Denis Irwin. But that, uh, that th- that, that ... You have to find a way to win. You have to just do everything you possibly can. You cannot leave anything on the pitch. You just sprint everywhere. You just do everything. And that, to me, typified what probably I was.... that I could see something in that, you know, in terms of how to impact a game. Whether it be through impacting someone else by getting them going and giving them the ball and ge- and keeping them at it. Um, and that's why I think he kept me there till I was 36, 'cause it wasn't through ability at the end. He kept me there till I was 36 just through my influence and my impact I had in the dressing room. I'm, I'm pretty certain of that because it wasn't through anything that I was doing on the pitch. So, I- I'm always humble around my own ability because of the p- talent I had around me. And that's why I get qu- on Twitter, quite often people will say to me, "If I hadn't have been at, if you hadn't have been at Manchester United, you'd been a jobbing right-back somewhere at Fulham or Bournemouth or..." But, maybe I would.

Steven Bartlett 25:17 But I mean, I've never heard anyone in a high-up managerial position disagree with the phrase that hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

Gary Neville 25:25 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, that's one thing I could never ever... I could never ever be accused of anything other than from the minute I joined at 11 to the minute I left at 36, Manchester United got everything out of me. Everything. And to be fair, the club gave me everything, so we, we didn't owe each other anything, um, and that's something I'm proud of. Longevity is actually probably one of the, one of the things that... Consistency and longevity. Being able to consistently work hard every single day at a good level of performance and turn up every single day and be there is underrated actually. And that, that's the thing that, to me, for surviving at 25 years under Sir Alex Ferguson in that environment of excellence and demands that he placed on people was, you know, it was a great achievement. But I did that with a lot less talent than the other players in the club.

Steven Bartlett 26:10 When was the first time you realized that Sir Alex Ferguson was...

Steven Bartlett 26:13 You re- you felt his influence? You felt his mindset?

Gary Neville 26:18 Do you know something? In the early days it was the old school, that of head teacher... Not, he's not a head teacher by any stretch of the imagination. But you know that little bit of fear that you maybe have of your father as well, if your father sort of gets a bit angry with you? You know that little bit of that dominating male of the '70s, '80s, '90s, probably going back beyond that, was, was apparent in Sir Alex Ferguson that, you know, you knew when he walked into the room, the room went quiet. There was that presence, that aura that the boss is here. And so you felt it straight away. When people say to me sort of, "How did you keep coming back every single year and continue to keep winning? What was the secret of that?" It was by his actions and what, what he did. I, I always remember when I was thir- what, when did we lose the Champions League final? 2009. So I'd have been 34. Right near the end of my career. Uh, w- I was doing my, um... We played the Champions League final on the Wednesday, we lost. We got back on the Friday from Rome, or Thursday or Friday. On the Saturday, I had to go and pick up my boots at Carrington, the training ground. So it was a Sunday morning. I had to go and pick up my boots at Carrington, the training ground, to go to St. George's Park 'cause I was doing my, uh, A License coaching badge and it was my final assessment. And I went in at seven o'clock in the morning. I'd organized to meet with the caretaker who was basically there on site all the time to let me in. And I parked on the back and the o- his office light's on and he's there in his chair. I thought, "Oh, no, I don't want to see him. We've just lost the European Cup final four day- four days ago." So I drove back round the front and went in, got my boots and moved out. But he was there, uh, Sunday morning, half six, seven o'clock, the only person in the building with his light on, four days after we'd won the European Cup final, and he'd been in his mid-60s. And I thought, "No one could live with that." The, there's n-... That, that's the reason he's winning, that's the reason he's winning, because no other manager, no other leader that I know, four days after that defeat in his off time in the summer is in his office on a Sunday morning at half past six. And he didn't know, he didn't know I was coming in obviously and he didn't see me either. I just saw... You could just see him in the distance. It was like... I couldn't believe it and it just... All those sort of examples of that work ethic, they hit you every single day and he knew how to tap into here. He knew how to get you, no matter who you were in the dressing room. He always used to get me, I always say this, by mentioning my gra-... He used, he used, he used to mention my grandparents. "What about your grandparents getting up every single day putting their tie on? The work that they put in. How they never complained about anything." You know, what they must have lived through obviously in the Second World War. And he would say things like that in his team talks and it would always tap into me 'cause I used to sit with my mum's dad and s- look at his medals that he'd had, he'd got during the Second World War. He'd had three or four wounds. He had shrapnel wounds in his shoulders that he could still show me and bits, bits of metal still in his body and he would talk to me about the medals and where he'd got them from and how he'd been in Holland and how he'd sort of had to come back and then he went back over. How he married my nan on, on the, on one of his returns back. So that used to get me every single time. So when I used to play for United, when you think about what motivates you, what gets you going, and he used to mention say for instance grandparents and there's that difficult moment on a pitch where you think, "We're struggling here a little bit." And now I think of my youngest daughter when I'm training, what keeps me going to the end of that training session. I think of silly things. If I don't keep going here, someone's gonna get my youngest da-... And I'll... There's nothing gonna get her so I've got to keep going. And there it was my, it was my, it was my grandad, my mum's dad and I used to think he wouldn't, he wouldn't stop going. He came back having been wounded twice and shrapnel wounds twice and went back out to fight again and he had those medals and he would speak to me about it. And I used to think, "How can I stop?" But he would ta- he would find that in me. Sir Alex would push, he would push those buttons and press those buttons. For someone else, it would become something completely different, I'm sure. He might be talking about their father. He might be talking about them going on strike in the Govan Shipyards. It might be talking about another experience that he's had. But he would tap into everybody in the dressing room in some way that would mean they'd find something to mean they would never give in. And that's what his, you know, his film's called Never Give In. He never gave in, but also the influence he had on others never to give in through finding something in them was, was incredible.

Steven Bartlett 30:34 Rio talked to me a lot

Steven Bartlett 30:35 about culture and the culture that Sir Alex Ferguson set. Evra said the same thing. Having left football now and working in the world of business, you must, must be looking back on-... the culture he created.

Gary Neville 30:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:46 And in some ways, drawing a lot from that in your own businesses, right? What- what- w- h- what have you learned about the importance of culture? Because, uh, there was this comment Rio m- ma- made to me on the podcast that I've never forgotten, which is about Sir Alex Ferguson's, like, lack of presence at the training ground. Rio said he only came into the training ground- training room/ dressing room ground a couple of times, because he didn't need to. The culture was in there.

Gary Neville 31:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:08 And then Rio talked about how then when Rio went and moved onto another club, in that same dressing room, players were talking about how much money they're making and-

Gary Neville 31:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:15 ... all of these other things which would never have happened at United.

Gary Neville 31:17 No.

Steven Bartlett 31:18 How- how does- how does one create that culture?

Gary Neville 31:22 I suppose (sighs) being grounded. He was grounded and he believed in the sort of the work- the... Work ethic was everything to him. Being proud, being proud to work hard, being proud of the people around you who work hard, uh, being proud of your teammates. He used to say, "Look around the changing room. Look around. I'm proud of every single one of you, but look at each other. Look at what you each do for each other on the pitch, and how you can't achieve what you're gonna achieve without each other." So he made us respect each other. Not everybody got on in our changing room, but most of us did. Um, but he tapped into those things all the time. It- it- it was- it was- it was non-stop. And being grounded, um, looking after people, little things like Wendy used to get the charity balls signed, um, and Roy Keane was like this as well. So Wendy, every Thursday, we'd have 30 to 40 charity balls that we would sign and then they would go to the children's charities, all the different charities in greater Manchester or in the country. And sometimes you're in a rush, aren't you? You're a football player, you're young. "Oh, Wendy, I'll sign them after. I'm j- I'm in a mad rush. I've got to go and do my stretching. I've got to have a massage. I've got to have treatment." Whatever it might be that you say on the way in, some poor excuse that you'd give, or maybe you just generally did. And there was one day where he basically, I think Roy had walked past Wendy and she was a little bit upset, and only five players out of the 23 in the squad had signed the balls. And Roy went upstairs and said to Sir Alex, "It's an absolute disgrace. This has happened a couple of weeks now. He killed us. He absolutely killed us. The lack of respect to- to walk past Wendy, who was there, to get the charity balls signed and not sign them for her, for him, was a- a dereliction of duty. It was a lack of respect. It's not what you do. We're equal in this football club. We treat each other equally. We look after one another. We make sure that we're sort of compassionate, and the idea of not doing things like that, little things like that," um, I think just little things like that stand out in my mind. So now sometimes I walk into the businesses, and you know what we're like, we sometimes walk in on our phone and we don't say hello to people because we're that immersed in our own blinkered sort of space. But then I'll walk past sometimes and I'll realize I've not said hello to someone. I'll go back and say, "I'm really sorry," and I'll- I'll, you know, I'll say, "Hi, are you okay?" And I do feel like even when in the office, there is no... I sit next to people in the office. I don't sort of have my own-

Steven Bartlett 33:43 Glove tower.

Gary Neville 33:44 Yeah, I don't. I don't. I make sure I go and sit in cafe football in the hotel, or I go and sit in the main restaurant at Stocks or at Salford I'll just go and sit in the main office. Because the idea that basically, you know, he wa- he did have his own office and he did have e- his own space. And he did, to be fair, delegate, and he would keep his... But I- I- so I don't think I'm- I'm like Sir Alex in the way in which I now look at my businesses, because I do believe it's very different now. Um, but he was very... The s- the staff loved him. Everybody loved him at the club, because he protected them. He knew everybody's name. He asked about their families. He knew their family's names. He- he was really, really attentive. He's... But he was far better at that than I am. Far better in that- at that than I am. But I probably, to be fair, mix with my teams more than he maybe would. So... But the work ethic is the thing. Honestly, the only thing you can ever do in life is work as hard as you possibly can and never give in. And he said, "You've got that choice every single day." Really simple. That's it. The talent you've got, you just work as hard as you can every single day and never give in, and then you come back the day after and do it again. And that's it. That's the secret to what he believed. Because he said the talent is his problem. Forget talent. I've chosen you to be here so I'm telling you you've got the talent. Don't you worry about that bit. What I need back in return is that other bit, which is the- the focus, the commitment, the dedication to make sure every single day you get up and you're here and you give your all and you don't give in. And that's why I think I stayed where I was, because I believed in him. I trusted in him. And now it's the same. If someone comes into our business and they've been selected to come in, that's because I believe they've got the talent or someone in our senior management team believe they've got the talent. All they have to do in return now is go for it and give their all and be enthusiastic and not give in and then come back the day after and do it again. And I- I keep it- try and keep it as simple as that. I know there's a lot more to it than that, but it is- it was that simple for us. I know that then there's the tactics, then there's the decision-making, then there's- them there's sort of concent- all the things that go with it. But that was the sort of heart, I think, of every- all the messaging that we got from him.

Steven Bartlett 35:46 They almost seem like old-fashioned values, what you're saying.

Gary Neville 35:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:50 It al- it almost sounds... And I'm gonna be honest. It almost sounds like what the modern-day professional culture might consider to be a little bit toxic.

Gary Neville 35:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:59 You know what I mean?

Gary Neville 36:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:01 This- this drive for hard work. But I have to say I've never sat here with anybody that's reached the peak of their powers in their career that hasn't said the same.

Gary Neville 36:10 But now, if I'm in my businesses, so I don't... Uh, things like I- I don't have the... I'd never work the first week in January. I think it's the most depressing week of the year. After Christmas you've had a high and then you go back, it's dark, it's miserable that first week. So I always take it off. But I always give the rest of our team, in the office that I work in, off as well. So I don't make people do what I'm not gonna do. I'm going away, I think, in three weeks for five days. And I said to everybody in the office, "Don't worry about the fact you've got 28 days in your contract. Those five days you're off. Have the last five days off of the summer, then we'll go for it to Christmas."Also, people are flexible working. They can come in Monday. They don't have to come in Tuesday. They can come in Wednesday. The, I, I trust them to do what they want. So there is an element of, yeah, I want hard, I do expect hard work, but I also want people to have a brilliant time and share in the success that we have, but also make sure that if I'm off, I would expect that they have those times off as well. I wouldn't expect them to come in, uh, I, I don't bel- I hate the idea of a, of work package that's got like, "You've got 25 days holiday. You have to book it in." I hate that. I hate the idea of restriction. I hate it. I feel like it's bullying. "You must sit there in the office." I hate it. It's not right. It is not right. Don't tell people where to sit, how to work. You know, obviously there is a direction and there is a leadership that's needed, but I just feel like it's really not acceptable, partic- and that was, this was pre-COVID. Our office is like, to be fair, this, this, this room that we're in here now.

Steven Bartlett 37:41 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 37:42 So someone could be sat there. Someone could be sat there. Someone could be sat on the floor over there with a, with, with a, you know, on, on, on a laptop. That, that's how it should be in an office. It should always be like that, I think. I don't think it needed, I don't think it ever, I don't think it needed COVID-

Steven Bartlett 37:55 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 37:56 ... to make modern business act properly with the teams that they work with. So I, I, I, I do feel it's very different than how we were at United, which is old-fashioned value. There's still some old-fashioned values. You have to work hard. You have to get the job done. We know that. But why do you have to say that to people? I think people know they have to work hard and get the job done. So why do you have to say that to them? You're looking to tap into them. Make something unique in your business that makes them want to stay, really. That's what you sort of, you might want to make it enjoyable.

Steven Bartlett 38:22 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 38:22 And that can still be enjoyable through hard work. I think, I think it's quite enjoyable working now. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:28 Yeah. (laughs) No, I know what-

Gary Neville 38:30 I don't know what everyone else thinks but-

Steven Bartlett 38:30 No, well I know people that work for you obviously 'cause, you know, we've got a, we've got a, we've got a colleague that used to work for me that works for you now, and they're all very, very complimentary. So that's-

Gary Neville 38:37 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:37 ... supported by, that's supported by the evidence that I have. Um, but you're right. I, I've always found that the contradiction there is trust. You're saying to your team members to trust you, but you're not trusting them. And trust, I feel like, has to go both ways.

Gary Neville 38:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:48 And so, and there's, and the other, what, what ends up happening when you have those, in my experience, those very rigid rules, is you'll get compliance but you won't get like motivation. And as you've described it, you want people to be internally driven-

Gary Neville 39:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:02 ... not compliant because of punishment.

Gary Neville 39:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:05 And that gets the best out of people, right?

Gary Neville 39:06 It, it's interesting because, um, Valencia taught me a lot, but around that time, I was with England coaching with Roy Hodgson, um, and I'd lived at United where we were, we were fined. You know, Nunez got sent off last night for headbutting Anderson. That's two weeks' wages at Manchester United. I got fined two weeks' wages regularly four or five times. It happens. Football. It's, it wouldn't happen in a normal workplace, but we know Sir Alex Ferguson's rules, if you have violent conduct or, um, chatting back to a referee, you get fined. It's a fact. He won't accept it. People think Sir Alex Ferguson was like, "Get after the referees." But if we actually got booked for having a go at a referee, we would get fined. So very much quite a rigid thing. And then Roy Hodgson said something to me when I was with England, and, and, and I felt as though standards were slipping a little bit one time. I can't remember exactly what it was about. And I said, "We need some rules." 'Cause I'd had, we'd had a code of conduct at United. I was the players' rep. I knew what the, the sort of standards were. And he said to me, "We don't set rules." He said, "Be very careful with rules." Uh, he said, "Because it's always the people that you don't want to break them that break them."

Steven Bartlett 40:15 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 40:16 I thought, "That's quite clever, that." And ever since, there are no rules. There are no rules in our business in terms of, "You must be here. You must do this. You must wear that. You must ..." You know, I don't expect formality in, in dress. I don't, I expect people to be comfortable. So I don't say, "You should wear this," or, "You should be here at that time." Or, "We should, we've got to do that," in any part of my business. I don't create rules anymore. Because once you create rules, for a start, it's rigid. I don't believe it's right. And the rules are there. They're, they're unwritten actually, the rules of sort of working hard and turning up and doing your job, all the things. The, the, the rules are there, just, they just don't have to be written down. Um, and, you know, he said, "What happens if your star player walks in that breaking?" 'Cause the, you know, the ones that, you know, we were talking about that were setting the low standards, he said, "What happens if one of the star player walks in and ..." He said, "We need to work with the players to make sure that they understand what we expect of them and the standards. We don't need to set rules. Because if you set rules and consequence and punishment, then it'll be the one that you don't want to break them, and then you're in a big, you know, you're in big trouble." So it was a, it was a good lesson for me. And in football, it's very much a different place than a normal workplace anyway.

Steven Bartlett 41:25 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 41:26 It doesn't live by HR rules, a football dressing room. It doesn't. It doesn't. You know, players are still getting fined. Players still get told where to be, when to turn up, what to wear. We like it as well.

Steven Bartlett 41:38 Yeah. (laughs)

Gary Neville 41:38 I still like it now actually.

Steven Bartlett 41:39 Yeah.

Gary Neville 41:40 I've, I like actually being told what to do. I actually like it at Sky when people say to me, "Oh, Gary, we're doing this." Yeah, I like being told what to do. I respond to it really well 'cause I've had it, to be fair, but I've been instructed from Eric Harrison, Nobby Stiles, Brian Kidd, Sir Alex Ferguson. I've been instructed. I lived through the '70s and '80s. You could not live through the '70s and '80s as a child, early '90s, without being instructed, 'cause that was the form of leadership. So we still respond to it a little bit in our own lives. But then when I think about my children, I don't instruct them. I like independent thinking. I like them, so when people talk about social media or when people talk about, you know, I was sat with someone yesterday who said, "Oh, man, you know, I'm fearing my, my children going on social media." I, I, I always say to them, "Your children should get good at social media really quickly because they have to." They have to. They have to be good at it. So my children are 13 years of age now. They're both, they're all obsessed with social media, with the apps. They're on it all the time. And you know, sometimes we'll say, "You know, that's enough tonight, and, you know, let's come off it." But I want them to get good at it. I want them to use it and find out what information they can trust and what they can't trust. I use Twitter now all the time for my, well, one-... to have a debate.

Steven Bartlett 42:52 You're very good at it, to be fair.

Gary Neville 42:53 But also, to actually... My news, my major source of news is Twitter. It's my major source of news in my life. It's really helpful. I don't think there's a sports journalist broadcaster I could live without Twitter. Really important to me. So when people say, uh, "Twitter's a cesspit, get off it," there are elements of it that are, but that's just a really important thing for me in my life because I find all the sort of articles, all the sort of opinions, you know, all the breaking news is there. How can I live without that? It's what I rely upon to be able to do my job. So when I come off the pitch last Sun- Sunday, doing Manchester United, sorry, doing West Ham/Man City, and I see Manchester United had bid for Arnautovic, I used to have to wait till the morning after for the newspaper 15 years ago. Our children aren't like that anymore. They want things instantly, they see things quickly, and they don't like to be instructed. We have to collaborate with them.

Steven Bartlett 43:46 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 43:46 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:47 There's an inevitability, you're com- completely right, to social media and the internet and digital that will act- I believe, as well, will serve as a disadvantage to them if they, if they don't keep up.

Gary Neville 43:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:56 Because they're... You can't think of a profession these days that doesn't involve-

Gary Neville 44:00 No.

Steven Bartlett 44:00 ... social media or the internet. So you're, you're, you know... In, in an effort to try and protect children sometimes, we actually cause them a pretty substantial-

Gary Neville 44:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:06 ... career disadvantage.

Gary Neville 44:07 It should be taught at schools.

Steven Bartlett 44:09 It should be.

Gary Neville 44:09 It should be, uh, on the curriculum-

Steven Bartlett 44:10 Yeah.

Gary Neville 44:11 ... social media, how to use it, when to... what to use it for, how to get good at it-

Steven Bartlett 44:16 The dangers.

Gary Neville 44:17 ... the dangers of it.

Steven Bartlett 44:18 Yeah.

Gary Neville 44:18 It should be something that's taught at... It's got to be more useful to them than some of the subjects that they're currently being taught-

Steven Bartlett 44:25 Oh, God. Find out in a triangle.

Gary Neville 44:25 ... in 2022. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:28 You, you know when you... And I... This is... I mean, this is not a nice topic to talk about, 'cause we're both Manchester United fans. But through all you've been through and the era you grew up in and all of those famous influencers you had that instilled those values in you-

Gary Neville 44:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:40 Um, and even the early initiations you had in that dressing room-

Gary Neville 44:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:42 ... from the senior players and... You know, I've read about all of that stuff as well. When you look at what's going on at the club today, even though you're not, you're not in the dressing room, you must have a pretty s- pretty strong hypothesis as to why Manchester United in 2022 are failing, based on what you experienced.

Gary Neville 45:01 Yeah. I think a lack... Uh, uh, it comes down to a lack of leadership and direction from the top and vision, and, um, a deterioration of the sort of beliefs over a long period of time. Uh, I said last night, actually, that, um, a school that's underperforming over a long period of time and getting poor results gets put in special measures by Ofsted and by government. And they're not blaming the kids. It means that the governors, it means that the sort of the head teachers, the people at the top of the organization at the school have not basically set the standards for those children. And they've let the school basically rot and the results become poor. I think that's what's happened at United. It was a high-performing school. The head teacher has left. The board of the governors left, David Gill. And what's happened since is that they've been replaced with people who haven't got it, and poor standards have just meant that ultimately, over a period of time, there's become an embedded rot. And that's what's happened. And also the kids, the players look now like they haven't got a clue anymore, and they're getting poor results. I don't believe all those Manchester United players that are on that pitch are poor players. When they came to the club, some of those players, I was really excited by their arrivals. And I've seen players that weren't as good as them go to other clubs and excel. So, the environment, the culture, the... yeah, the enthusiasm that you need to go into work every single day, I don't believe it's been created by the hierarchy at the club. And then there's been a sort of a, uh, uh, uh, a lack of investment into the facilities, into the stadium, into the training ground. So now Tottenham, Liverpool... Liverpool now, Liverpool foot-... I used to laugh when I used to go to Anfield, when they used to compare it to Old Trafford. I used to... They can never catch up. They're too far behind. They're just building that second stand now behind that left-hand goal, where the away fans sit. We saw it last night, towering up. The main stand now is towering up, and it holds... I don't... Um, it holds 20,000. Anfield will be a more modern ground than Manchester United and Old Trafford in 12 months. That is unforgivable for m-... To, to think we're... Not only have they overtaken us on the pitch, but actually they've overtaken us off the pitch. Manchester City are lightyears ahead on and off the pitch. Tottenham have invested 1.3 billion in stadium, that... Are you... Have you been to our Tottenham stadium?

Steven Bartlett 47:19 Oh, yeah.

Gary Neville 47:20 It's out of this world.

Steven Bartlett 47:21 Yeah.

Gary Neville 47:21 It's a, it's a-

Steven Bartlett 47:21 One of the best in the world.

Gary Neville 47:22 It's a museum.

Steven Bartlett 47:23 Yeah.

Gary Neville 47:23 It's the best in the world.

Steven Bartlett 47:23 Yeah, yeah.

Gary Neville 47:23 And I can't believe what I'm walking through when I see it. And yet if you go to their training ground, which I've been to, it's an amazing, brilliant facility that is far better than Carrington, where we moved to in 2001. We moved to, to Carrington... Sorry, 2000, we moved to Carrington. We left the Cliff training ground in Salford. So it's 22 years. We just had a bit of investment, but in 20 years, Manchester United have not invested in the stadium, they've not invested in the training ground that much. And then they've lost the two main people. And before you know it, you've got a club that's really struggling. And I've said that in the last couple of years, the only thing that I really do think can change it now is the, is, is the ownership. And I say that on here more calmly than I say on Sky Sports, but it's, it's not an emotive subject anymore. It's a very serious issue. There is an embedded rot at the club.

Steven Bartlett 48:11 You know that they're walking past Wendy's balls now, don't you?

Gary Neville 48:14 Do you know-

Steven Bartlett 48:14 Do you know what I mean?

Gary Neville 48:15 What do you... No. Tha-

Steven Bartlett 48:15 A- i- is it like signing Wendy's balls-

Gary Neville 48:17 Oh, sorry, yes, sorry.

Steven Bartlett 48:18 ... personified for me-

Gary Neville 48:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:20 ... caring about values in every single touchpoint?

Gary Neville 48:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:22 Even the small stuff.

Gary Neville 48:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:24 And so, uh, I was thinking then, I, I can almost imagine now those small expressions of our values, as you said, they come from the top down-

Gary Neville 48:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:31 ... are probably now being missed. And it's funny, 'cause as fans we look at the thing and we go, "Oh, he's not running fast enough," or we'll blame this player-

Gary Neville 48:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:36 ... or Fred or there's this player, whatever.

Gary Neville 48:37 Uh-huh.

Steven Bartlett 48:38 But when you've, when you've worked... For me, when I've worked in an organization, I realize that the values, the culture, everything starts from the top. And if you bring in great... And as we've seen at Manchester United, you can bring in the best stars into a bad culture, they'll become bad performers.

Gary Neville 48:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:51 And, um, I always, I always said in a business context as well, if the culture's strong enough, new people become the culture.

Gary Neville 48:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:56 If the culture's weak, the culture becomes the new people.

Gary Neville 49:00 It's why I was kept at the age of 33 to 36 in the first team.

Steven Bartlett 49:02 Yeah, because you were a disciple of the coach.

Gary Neville 49:04 Because, because Rafael da Silva from Brazil comes in. I'm the right back that's the senior right back. And who does he look to? He looks to me. He looks to Paul Scholes. He looks to Rio Ferdinand. And he sees people that are at the very top of their game, their experienced, their end of a careers. That's why I looked at Steve Bruce and Bryan Robson, Eric Cantona. I had nowhere to go as a young player. I knew I had to do what they had to do, or else... Because they were all doing it, every single day, and they'd been doing it for 15 years. I do feel sorry for the current players, and that won't go down well with a lot of Manchester United fans, 'cause a lot of Manchester United fans will say they're overpaid and they're chancing it and bluffing it. They're not. They're not. I know some of those lads. They're good lads. If they were sat here now with me and you, you'd be thinking, "There's an element of vulnerability there. There is a lack of confidence. They're crying out for help." I wish they had Sir Alex. I wish they had Roy Keane in the changing room with Nemanja Vidić and Rio Ferdinand at center-back and Peter Schmeichel in goal. Because if they did, they would grow, they would thrive, they would d- deliver. If the Manchester United team today was David De Gea in goal, Patrice Evra at left back, Harry Maguire at center-back, with Varane. It was me at right back. In midfield, there was Roy Keane and Michael Carrick. On the left was Marcus Rashford. On the right was Jadon Sancho. Up front was Martial with... Rooney or Hughes. Those same five or six players that we're currently saying can no, are no, not, not good enough to play for Manchester United, they would be outstanding if Sir Alex Ferguson was the manager, if the culture was still there. It's, it... I don't... Honestly, I, and that might be... I don't even know what I've just said, to be fair. I've not said it before.

Steven Bartlett 51:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely agree.

Gary Neville 51:03 But you know what I'm trying to say? If you surround yourself by those people who've got those standards, who've got that experience, who can cradle you through the difficult moments like we were when we were young players, when we won... When people say we won the league with kids, we didn't. We wouldn't have won the league without the experienced players in that dressing room around us and the guidance of Sir Alex Ferguson. They've not got that guidance off the pitch, and they've not got that guidance and comfort on the pitch. I used to walk out in the tunnel with Peter Schmeichel in front of me, Roy Keane in front of him. Behind me, obviously, David Beckham always went behind me, but Denis Irwin in front of me. I felt safe. I was 21, 22, 23 years of age. I felt safe. I felt comfortable 'cause I knew I was being looked after by experienced people and I knew that I was, wasn't alone. These players go out onto the pitch now, they feel alone. They don't feel like they've got anybody. That's where I am a little bit critical of Cristiano. You're the man. You're the star. You're the s- You're the best player in the world. Come on. Now's not a time to be throwing your arms around. Now's not a time to be walking off the pitch. Now's the time to make sure you lead those people. But he wants to leave. He wants to go and play somewhere else, and that might happen, and who could blame him? He wants to finish his career at a club that's achieving great things. But I, I do think he is the only player in that dressing room that could lead them, 'cause he's the only one that's got the in-built resilience and mental strength to get through a moment like... It won't be touching him, this. Other than on a personal frustration level, the fact that he's playing for a team that isn't giving him the chances, the goals, the success he wants. But on a point of view of criticism, heat won't be touching him. He's, he's, he's seen... He's played at Real Madrid. He's played at Manchester United. He's won five, six Champions Leagues. He's won Ballon d'Or. He's not... You can't touch him with the criticism or words. It's impossible. So he can withstand all this pressure and protect those players on the pitch. That's what I think Roy Keane did with us, what Peter Schmeichel did, what Cantona did, what Robson did. They protected us.

Steven Bartlett 52:59 If I took prime Cristiano Ronaldo when he came in from Portugal, and I put him in today's team... (sighs)

Gary Neville 53:06 He'd struggle. He'd struggle. And I think he really would struggle without Sir Alex's guidance, without the patience of Sir Alex and Carlos Queiroz, who had that patience with him at the time.

Steven Bartlett 53:16 Do you think his career would look entirely different?

Gary Neville 53:17 It would look different. You know, you speak to Paul Gascoigne and ask Paul Gascoigne when he chose Tottenham over Manchester United, and he says that if he'd have come to Manchester and worked with Sir Alex, he feels as though his p- his career and his life would've gone down a different path. And that's why I said this at the very start of this interview, why am I like I am. I was very fortunate that I wasn't in the center of London at 22, being led by experienced players who wanted to go to nightclubs or to bars. I was in Manchester with Denis Irwin and Sir Alex Ferguson and Roy Keane and Mark Hughes and Bryan Robson. Who, don't get me wrong, they liked a night out, but they knew also that that had to come at the right time and they would be responsible and make sure you delivered on the pitch. So I, I feel blessed and privileged by the influences that I had in my life. We talk about influencers now in a different way, don't we?

Steven Bartlett 54:07 Hmm.

Gary Neville 54:07 But actually, we're heavily influenced by the people that we come into contact with. And that's where your luck comes in in life, 'cause I can't choose who I come into contact with in life. You know, you walk into a business to take a job. You don't know that there are 150 people in the business. There could be some really good people in there that influence you well and make it really comfortable for you, or there could be some bad eggs that mean that you actually have a bad experience and it influences you in a different way. I just got really lucky throughout my career that I arrived at United when they started winning the Premier League.

Steven Bartlett 54:35 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 54:36 I then obviously had a brilliant manager. I had brilliant senior players. I had good parents. Everything was right in my life to influence me to be what I am today. Without that, I'm not the person I am. I wasn't Gary Neville, resilient, tough, mentally strong, could handle anything, better work ethic than anybody else when I was 10. I wasn't. I was a kid, just to be fair, going to school like everyone else. But I had exceptional people around me, I believe, that helped me. And I don't believe these lads now in that dressing room have got that around, or they haven't got that around them.

Steven Bartlett 55:06 I had a f- a thought cross my mind for the first time ever this week. And as a Manchester United fan-

Gary Neville 55:11 We're gonna go down. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:12 ... well, I grew up, my birth year was 1992-

Gary Neville 55:15 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 55:15 ... so I've only ever known great times at Manchester United, pretty much.

Gary Neville 55:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:18 And it was the first time that I played out the scenario in my head, that it's not guaranteed that we return to being champions. It's all I've ever known.

Gary Neville 55:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:28 And it was the first time that I started doing the equation of like, "How do great clubs fall?" And this is one of the years where I've seen one of the real catalysts is, okay, so the brand starts to deteriorate, they lose commercial deals. Then great players like Haaland and Nunez-

Gary Neville 55:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:44 ... don't choose the club.

Gary Neville 55:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 55:45 Then we... So we can't get great talent. We then don't have the money to get the great talent at an inflated price-

Gary Neville 55:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:50 ... which we could've paid in, in the first couple of years after the downfall. And then I'm thinking, "Okay, so this could... We could... There's, there's a chance..." And I hate to say it 'cause I'm an internal optimist. It's, it's embarrassing, but every year when we do our little score predictions in my football chat, I'm like, "We're gonna win the league every year." (laughs)

Gary Neville 56:06 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 56:06 For the last three years, I've, I'm deluded. But this was the first time I entertained the thought that we might... It's not guaranteed that we return to the club we were.

Gary Neville 56:15 Um, I, I, to be fair, I put us in the top four, didn't I? You did it last week.

Steven Bartlett 56:18 I did. I did it last week.

Gary Neville 56:18 In my predictions. But do you know something? I know full well we're not gonna finish in the top four, but I have to just because it's the Manchester United inbuilt thing that you say, "We're gonna finish in the top four." But that's how our expectations have dipped as well, because we used to say, "We're gonna finish top."

Steven Bartlett 56:28 Yeah.

Gary Neville 56:29 Um, no, I'm convinced Manchester United will return. Absolu- absolutely convinced.

Steven Bartlett 56:34 Why?

Gary Neville 56:36 It's not arrogance, this. And it's not because I'm biased, and it's not because I've gone to watch the club since the age of five. I've traveled around the world with the club for the last 30, 40 years. I've seen the extent of the fan base, the emotion that exists within the fan base, the scale of the club, and it's too... The foundations are too deep.

Steven Bartlett 56:59 But those foundations were created because of, like, generational success.

Gary Neville 57:03 Yeah, but we had a, we had, obviously the... We had, we had the Busby Babes period with Sir Matt Busby. Then we had 30 years, 25 years before Sir Alex brought home a league title. So, we've had 25 years before that we've gone through without success. Manchester United, um, is not going away. It's not going... it's too big. It's too big. It's too magical. It's too good. That is not, that is not emotion, that. That is just... If... I- I feel very, very strongly about that, that it is... There is an element of cycle here that, you know, we get in sort of our down period, but we shouldn't accept that because I'm happy to lose football matches. I'm happy to be fourth in the league, third in the league, sixth in the league if we're doing the right things. So, have we got a world... Manchester United should always have a world-class stadium. It hasn't. It should always have best-in-class training facility. It should always have best-in-class fan experience. It should always buy the best... Beam for the best players in the Premier League. It should always have young talent coming through and it should always buy, it should always buy young emerging talent from overseas. It's veered away from all five or six of its key principles and objectives that it's always ever had. Any business does that, then it's in trouble. You've got owners that, to be fair, are now taking dividends out of the club. They're taking big, large payments in debt out of the club, or interest payments on the debt out of the club. All the money that the club generates, to be fair, is not going back into the club, and it's now come home to roost. They only own 69, 70% of the club, and they need a billion quid to be able to fulfill those infrastructure projects that are needed. Their walls are closing in on them, and they do need to do something big through partnership or through an investor or through a, a, a sale in the next, I think, six to 12 months. Th- this cannot go on. That was a watershed moment at Brentford on Saturday.

Steven Bartlett 58:47 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 58:47 What we were all experiencing in that stadium, and I didn't obviously know you were in the stadium at that time, but now I know you were, and you said you were just compelled to stay 'cause you couldn't leave.

Steven Bartlett 58:55 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 58:56 Everybody that I've spoken to was like, "I've not seen too many things like that in 30 years of Premier League football."

Steven Bartlett 59:02 Not in history.

Gary Neville 59:02 And actually, I never want Manchester United to lose. But actually, it could've been an important moment and a, and a big moment where you actually start to think like you're thinking, "Could we..." You know, people have said, "Could we be relegated?" I said last night on television, "If we bring poor players in this next couple of weeks or don't bring players in, and Cristiano does leave, which I think he may, we could finish in the bottom half of the table with a £1.25 billion transfer spend in the last eight-"

Steven Bartlett 59:29 Years.

Gary Neville 59:30 "... to 10 years, and finish in the bottom half of the table." And so we are starting to think that way, but I've no doubts it's gonna return. It's, it's, it's too big. It's too good. Its fan base is too great. It's, it's enormous. It's, it's... I, I go... I've, I've been a... I've been abroad and watched 15... Seen 50,000 people watch us train in Thailand and in Malaysia and in Singapore, and I've seen Manchester. The passion still for the club is huge. And so it, it's still full now.

Steven Bartlett 59:56 Yeah. It's just... I just get concerned that if, you know, there's another generation that are growing up without the, the experience I had-

Gary Neville 1:00:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:01 ... and who are they gonna choose in terms of, you know-

Gary Neville 1:00:03 We'll lose some.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:04 ... which team to, to... Yeah.

Gary Neville 1:00:05 We'll lose some. We have to lose some along the way. There'll be some collateral damage.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:07 Depends how long we go through this. If this is two decades, then that's a whole generation that never saw what we saw growing up, so.

Gary Neville 1:00:14 Oh, City... City have done brilliant things. Pep Guardiola is a genius. The football is mesmerizing. The operation is slick. Um, but... (sighs) I say this because it will bring, you know, criticism from probably some football fans and certainly from Manchester City fans. It will never ever be Manchester United. And that's not arrogance. It just cannot be.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:40 What won't?

Gary Neville 1:00:41 Manchester City. It can never t- replace Manchester United in terms of scale and size. It can win trophies. It can win more trophies, but it can never be bigger in scale and size. It's impossible. It does not have the roots, the history, the tr- it just does not have it. Manchester United is too set. We- we'll see. I'm, I'm not, I'm not worried about the long term. I'm very worried about the short term.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:02 Um, one, one of the things that people don't know about you, I believe, because I was... I'm, you know, I'm fairly well read on, on what you do, but I didn't realize this, is just the scale of your kind of business portfolio.... it's m- it's quite honestly mental. I don't do all of the me- the, the media stuff that you do. I'm not, you know, on, on TV all the time presenting football. I'm not in that arena. And when I look at your business portfolio and mine, I'm going, "This guy does as much as I do from a business perspective." But you're not, you're not known to the world, first and foremost, as an entrepreneur. Maybe that's the second thing. People know you as a football legend. Second, second thing would be entrepreneur. And the second thing is you don't even like the word entrepreneur.

Gary Neville 1:01:43 Not really, no. I don't ... I suppose I ... It's like broadca- I don't like the word broadcaster. Maybe it's a lack ... Maybe that is an insecurity actually, or a vulnerability. People say to me, "You're a broadcaster." But I say, "I don't feel like a broadcaster. I don't feel like I've earned ..." You know, I feel like Martin Tyler or, um, you know, Des Lynam. They're broadcasters.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:01 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 1:02:02 They're journalists. They've, they're experienced. They do it. I don't feel like a broadcaster, 'cause I fe- still feel young, but I'm not young anymore, that, really, in terms of I've been doing it now for 11, 12 years. And same with entrepreneur. If you c- if you ... I always feel there's something a little bit ... Can I swear?

Steven Bartlett 1:02:16 Of course you can. You swear all the time on here.

Gary Neville 1:02:17 It feels a little bit wankerish-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:19 (laughs) Yes.

Gary Neville 1:02:19 ... to say I'm an entrepreneur.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:20 Even CEO sounds wankerish.

Gary Neville 1:02:22 Gary Neville, Gary Neville, CEO and entrepreneur. It's like, no.

Narrator 1:02:24 (laughs)

Gary Neville 1:02:24 Gary Neville, chairman of The Relentless Group and entrepreneur. No, ugh. Makes me-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:28 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 1:02:28 ... sort of skin crawl a little bit. But I think, to be fair, probably I should start calling myself that, because I do have ... There w- there is one constant. They're all in Greater Manchester.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:36 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 1:02:36 Apart from a media career, which can sometimes obviously be in London. But they're all in Greater Manchester, in Salford, Trafford, Manchester city center. And I feel very focused around my investments in that. And for, some people would say, "That's naive. You should expand beyond Greater Manchester." No. I'm passionate about where I come from, where I live, and I want to invest back into that part of the country. So, the two hotels, the football club, the devel- the big developments that we're doing, the university, um, the project management consultancy, all of them in Greater Manchester. Um, and I want to continue to do things. I don't think I'll do many more startups, although The Overlap-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:12 (laughs)

Gary Neville 1:03:13 ... is a startup, but I just, startups are hard. Do you think startups are hard?

Steven Bartlett 1:03:16 Oh, they're so painful.

Gary Neville 1:03:17 It's ... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:03:17 So, so painful.

Gary Neville 1:03:18 They're rewarding-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:19 Yeah.

Gary Neville 1:03:19 ... but the pain ... I mean, all of mine have been startups.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:21 Right.

Gary Neville 1:03:21 So, apart from Salford, which, to be fair, is a bit of a startup. It was like eighth tier. They had 170 fans. They're all startups. So, not one of them has been sort of a business that I've bought into. Which I'm not sure that ... That's, that's the way I like it, 'cause we can influence them and we can make them our ... You know, our culture can come into the sort of businesses. Um, but yeah, I, I wanted to do a lot in business, but in Greater Manchester, build teams. It's the teams part of it that gives me great satisfaction. And then, yeah, I, I love the sectors that I'm in. I love-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:50 And you ... It's crazy, 'cause y- when I look at your businesses, when I've looked closely at them, you run really good businesses, as it relates to attention to detail. Your hotel in Manchester, The Stock Exchange Hotel-

Gary Neville 1:04:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:03 ... I have to say, is by far my favorite hotel. It's not even close. When I filmed Dragons' Den, the first year, um, all the dragons stay at The Lowry. (laughs)

Gary Neville 1:04:12 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:04:12 Even though it was my first year, I was like, "Please can I stay at The Stock Exchange Hotel?"

Gary Neville 1:04:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:15 And I stayed there. It's by far and away ... There's nothing close to it in Manchester, in my view.

Gary Neville 1:04:19 No, and I have to say, some of my ... So, the university, I think, is more of a social project to trying to be more inclusive and sort of remove the barrier to higher education. The football club started off as a sort of a, a more of a social project, in terms of bringing young players through and believing in young talent in football, like we've been believed in. But then I also have this other side of me, which is I want to raise standards. And we wanted hospitality to be at the highest level in Manchester, and The Stock Exchange was my ambition to gr- create the number one hotel, premium hotel in Manchester, luxury hotel.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:49 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 1:04:49 The same with the development St. Michael's, which we hope to be the new number one hotel in Manchester when it's built, a new five-star hotel. Manchester only has one five-star hotel in the city center, and that was Lowry's in Salford-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:58 Mm-hmm.

Gary Neville 1:04:58 ... but they also have one five-star hotel. So, then some people will throw at me, you know, "How does that sit with your sort of social conscience, that you've got these sort of expensive apartments, you've got these expensive hotel rooms, you charge £40 for a steak?" And I'm like, "I think it's okay to be offended by Manchester not having enough affordable housing, and also not having high-class luxury accommodation and luxury products. I'm offended by both." Why does Manchester all have to be sort of pigeonholed into this three, four-star market? So, this idea that in Manchester is the, you know ... And I get called Champagne Socialist sometimes, and sometimes get criticized for the fact that, d- you know, I have a university that is trying to improve, you know, inclusion and, uh, and, and, and, and, and access to higher education. But then, "Oh, Neville, he's just basically selling developments, you know. He's, he's, he, he's selling apartments for £500,000, £600,000. He's, his, you know, his, his rooms are £250, £300 at Hotel Football or at Stock Exchange." But I'm, I'm offended by the fact that we can't raise the standards at sort of the highest level, and the fact that we can't look after people and make sure that everyone's got this sort of a, a house to be able to live in that's of a comfortable size and in, in the area they want to live. So, I feel that I'm, um, a little bit torn between my projects in what I feel. But I want h- high standards in our city. I want Manche- I'm offended that Manchester does not have h- uh, five-star international standard hotels. It offends me that London always has to have these things, or that Paris ... You know, why do people from Manchester have