Gary Neville: From Football Legend To Building A Business Empire | E170

1. 0:00 – 1:56

   Intro

   1. GNGary Neville0:00

      That's making me a little bit upset. (sighs) Gary Neville! (crowd roars) Fantastic, incredible man. It's the owners of that business. It's really simple. Joke. I don't think anyone can believe it.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:13

      One of the things that people don't know about you is just the scale of your business portfolio. It's quite honestly mental.

   3. GNGary Neville0:20

      The only thing you can ever do in life is work as hard as you possibly can and never give in.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:24

      What is the cost?

   5. GNGary Neville0:26

      I basically collapsed to the floor and had a fit. I went to the hospital, I had checks, and then found that I needed to slow down a little bit and had stopped doing the things that kept me well, and I'd just run myself into the ground. So I knew at that- that point then, I needed to see somebody.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:40

      Manchester United are failing.

   7. GNGary Neville0:43

      I do feel sorry for the current players. And that won't go down well with a lot of Manchester United fans. These players go out onto the pitch now, they feel alone. But that's where I'm a little bit critical of Cristiano. You're the star. Now is not the time to be throwing your arms around. Now is the time to make sure you lead those people. Resilience and robustness and hard work can be taught and learnt. I don't think it's something you're born with. From the minute I joined at 11 to the minute I left at 36, Manchester United got everything out of me. Everything. Of all the people that I always talk about having the influence on my life, I never mention my mum and her mum and dad. They're far better people than I am. That's making me a little bit upset. (instrumental music plays) (sighs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:28

      So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays) We are a normal working-class family. There are no famous sporting ancestors in our- in our family, yet somehow we won a combined 218 caps for our country at football and netball between us. Tracey

2. 1:56 – 8:38

   How did you and your family become so successful in sport?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:56

      Neville MBE, your sister, went twice to the Commonwealth Games and World Championships, representing England 74 times, and coached the national team. How and why is that possible, that three siblings in a family reach sport- sporting greatness when there isn't a long lineage of, you know, "The grandad was at Manchester United, this person was at this club and they opened doors for me"?

   2. GNGary Neville2:24

      (tuts) (sighs) I don't know really. I mean, I- I- I'll start at the end because I was having a conversation yesterday about, um... It was actually, how long should you take off after you've had a baby as a couple, whether it be the- the man or the woman. And I was thinking about my sister, and she took, like, two or three weeks off and then she was back at it. And also, my father passed away seven years ago, and on the morning of his funeral, I went and presented, uh, our project St. Michael's at a council meeting, and then went and got ready at home and went to his funeral straight after it. And someone said to me, "It's not normal that." And- and- and my sister... My dad passed away in Australia whilst he was- whilst he was watching my sister play for the Commonwealth Games. And, uh, me and my brother flew straight over there. My sister was still coaching the team. She never broke stride. And he was on a ventilator keeping him alive, even though he'd actually, to be fair, passed away, and they were just waiting for us to get over. The day after we got there, my sister said, "I've got a game tomorrow. We can't pronounce that he's actually dead until after I finish the game and I come back to the hospital." And when I think of that, that's the end... I suppose, in terms of that sort of that feeling of just that drive, that commitment to what we do, it- it... uh, people say it's not normal. Someone said to me, they say it's not normal that, that we would continue our lives irrespective of... And that probably came from my dad and from my mum. But I think of it as in different layers for me personally. I don't know what it was like for my sister or my brother. But for me personally, I think of it as being the first layer was my mum and dad, their love for sport, their commitment to get there early, to do things. My dads used to say, "Get up early, get there early, get your job done." And then when I got to United, I'm hit by Nobby Stiles, Brian Kidd, you know, Manchester United European Cup winners of 1968, and then Eric Harrison, a northern, tough Yorkshireman who, every single day, drilled us about what it was to be a Manchester United player. And then you're exposed to Sir Alex Ferguson and Roy Keane and Peter Schmeichel and Mark Hughes. So these different layers of, you know, monstrous mentalities of people who are just massive leaders, we've been exposed to them. I was exposed to them. And that's why I always say that resilience and robustness and hard work can be taught and learnt. I don't think it's something you're born with. And I think when you say, like, "How did we achieve that?" I just think we're very fortunate with our parents and the exposure that we had to brilliant leaders throughout our career and examples and the s- the standard-bearers that were next to us.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett5:00

      Learning through words, those words that your dad would say to you about getting up and getting at it every morning, is a great way to learn. But actions, I think, in hindsight seem to be the best way to- to really learn those lessons vicariously from observing our parents and how they're behaving in their lives.

   4. GNGary Neville5:14

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett5:15

      I rem- I ne- I'll never forget the day that I saw my mum... My mum stopped coming home and then I asked my dad where she was and she said, "Oh, she sleeps in the back of a shop now," this corner shop she was running. And then going there and seeing this bag of rice that she was sleeping on that had all these m- rat holes in it from where-

   6. GNGary Neville5:27

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:27

      ... the mice and rats had been eating it. That visual of that she was working that hard, even though she didn't have to, to support our family, so that she was sleeping in the back room every night and not coming home, was- was a lesson that I learnt without her saying a word.

   8. GNGary Neville5:41

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett5:41

      What are the lessons that you learnt from your... 'Cause, uh, you cited your dad there-

   10. GNGary Neville5:44

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:45

       ... as being pretty in- in, um, a- a pretty go-get 'em person. How was he functioning professionally that taught you these lessons?

   12. GNGary Neville5:53

       He was a lorry driver and he- he basically worked for Constellation Luggage, which was just luggage, you know, suitcases. And he had to do three drops a week at Daventry, which is south of Birmingham. And...He had to get them there basically by the end of Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. But we had a... We lived in a two up, two down terraced house. And every time my dad got up, you can hear your dad get up when you're young, you just, you just hear it because it's obviously the, you know, lights come on, and you hear the sort of noise, the f-floorboards are creaking. And we always get up early as a family anyway. But at four or five o'clock, you'd hear my dad... We lived in the back. We were in the back bedroom and his, his lorry, his wagon was parked at the back. What if he was doing to do a drop the next day? And he'd leave at four or five o'clock in the morning on the Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. He'd take the suitcases. He'd wait for the depot to open at sort of seven, eight o'clock, drop them off, and he'd be back and have his job done by 11 o'clock. And then he'd start to go and do his, what would be his commercial work, the fundraising for testimonials. The thing that he loved for say, for instance, Lancashire County Cricket Club was that was his passion, and that's how he got into Bury Football Club as a commercial director and into foot-... Because he had, he had a sales mentality, my dad. But he'd get his main job done by 11 o'clock every single morning, he'd be at Daventry and back in a lorry. And then, after school, he'd take us to football, and he'd take us to cricket. So the amount he fit into a day was unbelievable. You know, he'd almost do two jobs. He'd do his job, which was his main job, which was earning him his money, which was a lorry driver. He'd then come and do the job which would be potentially could he do some sort of like side job selling for Lan-Lancashire County Cricket Club or Greenmount Cricket Club. He did, he organized dinners and events and things like that. And then, his family would come after school where he'd, he'd put them into sport, and we'd go to United in the evening or we'd go... Um, we were at United from 11:00, 11:00 Monday and Thursday night. So this constant drive of trying to fit as much as you possibly can in the day, and that's where I sort of, the attack of the day, was from my dad, "Get up. Get there early. Let's make sure we're there." Even at United, we'd get there early on Saturday. There would never be any risk with time of being late. I feel sometimes that that is a good thing. It's, it's put that into us. But sometimes to live by that now, particularly at the age I'm at, sometimes you sort of think, "Ugh." It's hard to keep up.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett8:13

       (sighs)

   14. GNGary Neville8:13

       Yeah. It's hard to keep on doing it, and you wonder now, particularly what we know now, whether it's the right thing. My dad had heart problems at a very early age, at the age of 42. You know, he's a lorry driver. You know, he liked to go for a beer. He liked a night out. He did too much. He got stressed. All the things that I do now. (laughs)

   15. SBSteven Bartlett8:31

       Yeah.

   16. GNGary Neville8:32

       So he thinks... There's a lot I can see in my dad of me, um, but I don't think I can change it really.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett8:37

       What is the

3. 8:38 – 21:18

   What the cost of your drive?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett8:38

      cost? Because for everyone's... I sat here with Tim Grover, who actually coaches a lot of the young United players now.

   2. GNGary Neville8:42

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett8:43

      Co- coached Michael Jordan and, and, um, Kobe Bryant for a, a-

   4. GNGary Neville8:46

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett8:46

      ...span of 15 odd years he was their best sold coach. And he said, "For everyone's greatness, the thing that causes their greatness..." In your case, you know, that drive and that ruthlessness and that dedication caused you to become a Manchester United legend and all these other things.

   6. GNGary Neville8:59

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett8:59

      But what is the cost on the other side that people don't, don't see? From he, he referred to it as we have our light side, and we have our dark side. The dark side is a consequence, an ir- er- unavoidable consequence of the light side.

   8. GNGary Neville9:10

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett9:10

      What was that dark side for you and your dad?

   10. GNGary Neville9:13

       Um, health, I think. And I've seen that in the last couple of years with myself. I think, um-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett9:20

       Physical health?

   12. GNGary Neville9:22

       No. I've had... I, I, I... I've said this, to be fair, on something that I've done myself in the last week on the overlap. Um, I actually, to be fair, um... Raheem Sterling scored a goal in the, uh, European Championships against Germany a year and a half ago, and I basically collapsed to the floor and had a fit. And after that, I went to the hospital to have checks and then found that, you know, I needed to slow down a little bit basically. And it's sim- it's similar things to what my dad was told in his 40s, that, you know, ultimately, I do too much. I think too much. I need to relax more. You know, to be fair, my wife says it quite often, "You're here, but you're not present."

   13. SBSteven Bartlett10:10

       (laughs) Christ, have I done? (laughs)

   14. GNGary Neville10:11

       (laughs) Do you get that?

   15. SBSteven Bartlett10:12

       Oh, my God.

   16. GNGary Neville10:13

       So... A-and also, there was an inter- I was doing an interview the other day and, uh, it was with Geoff Shreeve. Geoff's known me 15, 20 years. And he said, "The problem is when I'm asking you a question, you've got my question inside the first two seconds." Let's say it's a ten-second question. "You've got my question inside the first two seconds. The next eight seconds, you're thinking about what you're doing after. I can see it in your eyes already." And he's right. Don't... S- even during this interview, I'm speaking, and sometimes I lose my way in an interview and I actually forget what the question was. And quite often, I'll say like, "What was the question?" If I'm on a stage doing like a Q&A, "What did you actually ask me?" Because I've actually drifted off whilst I'm answering the question to something that I need to do later and it's I'm never present. So the, the consequences that maybe... I remember Sir Alex saying to me he missed his children growing up. I am missing my children growing up. That's a consequence of my life. I've been in London for four days, you know, but what can I do? I've got... I come down to Brentford-Manchester United. I then stay down Sunday because I don't... I can't get a train back. Trains... There was a train strike. And then I'm down doing Monday night football and I'll go back today. Last week, I was down for another four days, but it's what I do. I love what I do. I wouldn't change it. But this afternoon, I'll get back to Manchester, and I've got meetings till 6:00. And then tomorrow, it's I'm full all day. Thursday, I'm in Glasgow doing a dinner with Sir Alex Ferguson. So it is a constant sort of every single day that I feel like I'm filling days with things that I love and want to do, but then you say to yourself, you do have those odd moments more now, "Why am I doing all this?" And why are you doing this now? You love doing it maybe. You know, it's what you enjoy. But you sometimes have those moments, don't you where... I have more of those moments where I think, "Why am I doing those? Why have I got two hotels? Why have I got a football club? Why have I got a university? Why have I built an overlap channel? I'm already on Sky. Why am I doing these things?" But it's, it's that idea of, I suppose, cramming as much into your life as possible, thinking you've just only got this sort of short period of time. And Brian Kidd used to say to us, "Get your pace early. You can't make it up at the end." And we used to sprint.... and sprint in our runs, and sprint. And that mean if you collapsed at the end, and you didn't quite finish it or whatever, it's better than managing yourself and thinking, "I'll save a little bit." We'd... I have to say, the players that I played with at Manchester United, we never saved anything. It was all left out there on the pitch. And I th- I think that's how our, our lives are since as well, we just leave everything out there on the pitch. There's nothing saved, so we just end up, I suppose, saturating every single second of every single day.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett12:42

       I used to think that I was driven. I used to think that, you know... And that sounds like a very good framing, "I'm driven, I'm motivated." I thought that's what was... 'Cause y- you said, right, why am I doing this? After I do this podcast, there's maybe, you know, 10 other companies that I'm running. I have zero time in the day, and then I try and cram in-

   18. GNGary Neville12:57

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett12:57

       ... my girlfriend and my family and do a very bad job of that.

   20. GNGary Neville12:59

       Yeah. (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett12:59

       I used to think it's because I'm driven and I'm just whatever. And then I asked myself a question, which I... When I met Eddie Hearn, I, I saw the same thing. I mean, his book is called Relentless.

   22. GNGary Neville13:07

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett13:07

       Are we really driven or are we being voluntarily driven, by as in we're making the choice to drive towards something, or are we being involuntarily dragged by some kind of insecurity or some kind of discomfort with the prospect of not being busy? 'Cause for me, I'm convinced these days that I'm probably being dragged by an insecurity.

   24. GNGary Neville13:26

       Maybe. Maybe.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett13:27

       That I developed at a very young age.

   26. GNGary Neville13:29

       Yeah, maybe. I'm not sure. I don't, I don't know. I don't... I don't-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett13:32

       'Cause could you stop?

   28. GNGary Neville13:33

       I don't feel... Uh, not sure. 'Cause this idea that, you know, if you stop, it'll kill you and all that sort of stuff.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett13:38

       Slow down.

   30. GNGary Neville13:39

       Slow down. I do feel like I need to slow down. I read a book, I think. I can't remember what it was, a few, a couple of years ago, where it talked about you can never really retire if you love work and you are relentless. But what you can have is mini retirements during the year, and that's what I've tried to do. I don't do it very well. So I'd... For instance, this weekend, I'm going to Spain Friday till Monday morning. I call... That's like a mini retirement. So-
4. 21:18 – 26:13

   You’re self disparaging about your skills

   1. GNGary Neville21:18

   2. SBSteven Bartlett21:18

      You always ... L- going back to your early years i- in football and as you came through the ranks, you, you always, and I've seen this in multiple interviews, kind of are a little bit self-dispar- disparaging about your own abilities.

   3. GNGary Neville21:28

      My talents? (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett21:28

      Yeah.

   5. GNGary Neville21:29

      I just played with brilliant players, didn't I? I mean, if you think about it, just go through the players who I played with, Jaap Stam, you know, Denis Irwin, Peter Schmeichel, Roy Keane-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett21:38

      But that's not enough to, to-

   7. GNGary Neville21:40

      ... David Beckham, Cristiano Ronaldo, Dwight Yorke, Eric Cantona, every single one of them had more talent and ability than I did. You know, it just, they just did. It's, it was just obvious around me. I wa- when I got to United ... The thing is, the thing you said about insecurity, the only time that I ever felt insecure was when I got to United at ... I got to United at 11 and I joined at 11. And there was Center of Excellence group and then we got retained every single year, but at 14 is where it gets really serious and they sign, they signed the sco- the schoolboys and the out-of-town lads come in. So all of a sudden you're exposed to them, to Beckham, to Scholes joined at 14, all these brilliant players, and you think, "How am I gonna survive here?" I could just, you, you ... I'm aware, I know my own abilities, um, and I had to, I had to just do things differently. I was a midfield player, then I was a center-back, then I ended up at right back. You know, there is an element of truth in what Carragher said, "No one wants to grow up to be a Gary Neville," meaning no one wants to grow up to be a full-back. Everyone when they're a kid scores goals or sets up goals and then you find out that you're not good enough to do that and you get pushed back of the team. That's what happened with me. I was one position away.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett22:44

      (laughs)

   9. GNGary Neville22:44

      I, that was the last, my last hope, right-back. You know what I mean? (laughs) I was out the team if I couldn't play right back.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett22:49

       (laughs)

   11. GNGary Neville22:49

       I'd, I'd gone from center midfield as an 11, 12-year-old at United, then center-back from 14 to 18, and then told I wasn't, I wasn't good enough by my reserve team coach to be a center-back at United 'cause Steve Bruce and Gary Pallister were there, and then I go to c- to right back. So y- you are aware that you're being pushed out of your positions by better players and that that's your only route to success, is hard work and playing at right back and trying to adapt to that. And then it was good enough for me in the end, but, you know, it's, no it's not disparaging. I, I knew the game. I o- I could organize. I knew the game well. I read the game well. And, um, on the pitch, I would never, ever, I would never give in. So the, around me, this idea of being able to organize the team. I could see the game in front of me, so I had an impact. I believe I had an impact on the other players that I played with beyond my talent, through my understanding of the game and making sure that I never stopped going and we never stop going. We keep going. We just keep pushing forward. So if we're fighting for a goal, uh, you know ... I always think it was that ... I never go into this l- level of grandiozity. I've probably never said this before. When people say to me, "What's the greatest moment in my life?" Right, I say it's the final in '99 in the Nou Camp when we won the treble. But that ... I, I made a run from right back. I got the corner for the first goal 'cause I went o- I ra- sprinted over to the left wing and took the long throw to put it into the box. It came back out to me and we got the corner. It's not an assist by any stretch of the imagination. It typifies my career of seven goals and very few assists. I am no Trent Alexander-Arnold or nor even a Denis Irwin. But that, uh, that th- that, that ... You have to find a way to win. You have to just do everything you possibly can. You cannot leave anything on the pitch. You just sprint everywhere. You just do everything. And that, to me, typified what probably I was.... that I could see something in that, you know, in terms of how to impact a game. Whether it be through impacting someone else by getting them going and giving them the ball and ge- and keeping them at it. Um, and that's why I think he kept me there till I was 36, 'cause it wasn't through ability at the end. He kept me there till I was 36 just through my influence and my impact I had in the dressing room. I'm, I'm pretty certain of that because it wasn't through anything that I was doing on the pitch. So, I- I'm always humble around my own ability because of the p- talent I had around me. And that's why I get qu- on Twitter, quite often people will say to me, "If I hadn't have been at, if you hadn't have been at Manchester United, you'd been a jobbing right-back somewhere at Fulham or Bournemouth or..." But, maybe I would.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett25:17

       But I mean, I've never heard anyone in a high-up managerial position disagree with the phrase that hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

   13. GNGary Neville25:25

       Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, that's one thing I could never ever... I could never ever be accused of anything other than from the minute I joined at 11 to the minute I left at 36, Manchester United got everything out of me. Everything. And to be fair, the club gave me everything, so we, we didn't owe each other anything, um, and that's something I'm proud of. Longevity is actually probably one of the, one of the things that... Consistency and longevity. Being able to consistently work hard every single day at a good level of performance and turn up every single day and be there is underrated actually. And that, that's the thing that, to me, for surviving at 25 years under Sir Alex Ferguson in that environment of excellence and demands that he placed on people was, you know, it was a great achievement. But I did that with a lot less talent than the other players in the club.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett26:10

       When was the first time you realized that Sir Alex Ferguson was...

5. 26:13 – 30:35

   Alex Ferguson’s mindset

   1. SBSteven Bartlett26:13

      You re- you felt his influence? You felt his mindset?

   2. GNGary Neville26:18

      Do you know something? In the early days it was the old school, that of head teacher... Not, he's not a head teacher by any stretch of the imagination. But you know that little bit of fear that you maybe have of your father as well, if your father sort of gets a bit angry with you? You know that little bit of that dominating male of the '70s, '80s, '90s, probably going back beyond that, was, was apparent in Sir Alex Ferguson that, you know, you knew when he walked into the room, the room went quiet. There was that presence, that aura that the boss is here. And so you felt it straight away. When people say to me sort of, "How did you keep coming back every single year and continue to keep winning? What was the secret of that?" It was by his actions and what, what he did. I, I always remember when I was thir- what, when did we lose the Champions League final? 2009. So I'd have been 34. Right near the end of my career. Uh, w- I was doing my, um... We played the Champions League final on the Wednesday, we lost. We got back on the Friday from Rome, or Thursday or Friday. On the Saturday, I had to go and pick up my boots at Carrington, the training ground. So it was a Sunday morning. I had to go and pick up my boots at Carrington, the training ground, to go to St. George's Park 'cause I was doing my, uh, A License coaching badge and it was my final assessment. And I went in at seven o'clock in the morning. I'd organized to meet with the caretaker who was basically there on site all the time to let me in. And I parked on the back and the o- his office light's on and he's there in his chair. I thought, "Oh, no, I don't want to see him. We've just lost the European Cup final four day- four days ago." So I drove back round the front and went in, got my boots and moved out. But he was there, uh, Sunday morning, half six, seven o'clock, the only person in the building with his light on, four days after we'd won the European Cup final, and he'd been in his mid-60s. And I thought, "No one could live with that." The, there's n-... That, that's the reason he's winning, that's the reason he's winning, because no other manager, no other leader that I know, four days after that defeat in his off time in the summer is in his office on a Sunday morning at half past six. And he didn't know, he didn't know I was coming in obviously and he didn't see me either. I just saw... You could just see him in the distance. It was like... I couldn't believe it and it just... All those sort of examples of that work ethic, they hit you every single day and he knew how to tap into here. He knew how to get you, no matter who you were in the dressing room. He always used to get me, I always say this, by mentioning my gra-... He used, he used, he used to mention my grandparents. "What about your grandparents getting up every single day putting their tie on? The work that they put in. How they never complained about anything." You know, what they must have lived through obviously in the Second World War. And he would say things like that in his team talks and it would always tap into me 'cause I used to sit with my mum's dad and s- look at his medals that he'd had, he'd got during the Second World War. He'd had three or four wounds. He had shrapnel wounds in his shoulders that he could still show me and bits, bits of metal still in his body and he would talk to me about the medals and where he'd got them from and how he'd been in Holland and how he'd sort of had to come back and then he went back over. How he married my nan on, on the, on one of his returns back. So that used to get me every single time. So when I used to play for United, when you think about what motivates you, what gets you going, and he used to mention say for instance grandparents and there's that difficult moment on a pitch where you think, "We're struggling here a little bit." And now I think of my youngest daughter when I'm training, what keeps me going to the end of that training session. I think of silly things. If I don't keep going here, someone's gonna get my youngest da-... And I'll... There's nothing gonna get her so I've got to keep going. And there it was my, it was my, it was my grandad, my mum's dad and I used to think he wouldn't, he wouldn't stop going. He came back having been wounded twice and shrapnel wounds twice and went back out to fight again and he had those medals and he would speak to me about it. And I used to think, "How can I stop?" But he would ta- he would find that in me. Sir Alex would push, he would push those buttons and press those buttons. For someone else, it would become something completely different, I'm sure. He might be talking about their father. He might be talking about them going on strike in the Govan Shipyards. It might be talking about another experience that he's had. But he would tap into everybody in the dressing room in some way that would mean they'd find something to mean they would never give in. And that's what his, you know, his film's called Never Give In. He never gave in, but also the influence he had on others never to give in through finding something in them was, was incredible.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett30:34

      Rio talked to me a lot

6. 30:35 – 44:28

   What you have you learnt from Sir Alex about culture?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett30:35

      about culture and the culture that Sir Alex Ferguson set. Evra said the same thing. Having left football now and working in the world of business, you must, must be looking back on-... the culture he created.

   2. GNGary Neville30:45

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett30:46

      And in some ways, drawing a lot from that in your own businesses, right? What- what- w- h- what have you learned about the importance of culture? Because, uh, there was this comment Rio m- ma- made to me on the podcast that I've never forgotten, which is about Sir Alex Ferguson's, like, lack of presence at the training ground. Rio said he only came into the training ground- training room/ dressing room ground a couple of times, because he didn't need to. The culture was in there.

   4. GNGary Neville31:07

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett31:08

      And then Rio talked about how then when Rio went and moved onto another club, in that same dressing room, players were talking about how much money they're making and-

   6. GNGary Neville31:15

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett31:15

      ... all of these other things which would never have happened at United.

   8. GNGary Neville31:17

      No.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett31:18

      How- how does- how does one create that culture?

   10. GNGary Neville31:22

       I suppose (sighs) being grounded. He was grounded and he believed in the sort of the work- the... Work ethic was everything to him. Being proud, being proud to work hard, being proud of the people around you who work hard, uh, being proud of your teammates. He used to say, "Look around the changing room. Look around. I'm proud of every single one of you, but look at each other. Look at what you each do for each other on the pitch, and how you can't achieve what you're gonna achieve without each other." So he made us respect each other. Not everybody got on in our changing room, but most of us did. Um, but he tapped into those things all the time. It- it- it was- it was- it was non-stop. And being grounded, um, looking after people, little things like Wendy used to get the charity balls signed, um, and Roy Keane was like this as well. So Wendy, every Thursday, we'd have 30 to 40 charity balls that we would sign and then they would go to the children's charities, all the different charities in greater Manchester or in the country. And sometimes you're in a rush, aren't you? You're a football player, you're young. "Oh, Wendy, I'll sign them after. I'm j- I'm in a mad rush. I've got to go and do my stretching. I've got to have a massage. I've got to have treatment." Whatever it might be that you say on the way in, some poor excuse that you'd give, or maybe you just generally did. And there was one day where he basically, I think Roy had walked past Wendy and she was a little bit upset, and only five players out of the 23 in the squad had signed the balls. And Roy went upstairs and said to Sir Alex, "It's an absolute disgrace. This has happened a couple of weeks now. He killed us. He absolutely killed us. The lack of respect to- to walk past Wendy, who was there, to get the charity balls signed and not sign them for her, for him, was a- a dereliction of duty. It was a lack of respect. It's not what you do. We're equal in this football club. We treat each other equally. We look after one another. We make sure that we're sort of compassionate, and the idea of not doing things like that, little things like that," um, I think just little things like that stand out in my mind. So now sometimes I walk into the businesses, and you know what we're like, we sometimes walk in on our phone and we don't say hello to people because we're that immersed in our own blinkered sort of space. But then I'll walk past sometimes and I'll realize I've not said hello to someone. I'll go back and say, "I'm really sorry," and I'll- I'll, you know, I'll say, "Hi, are you okay?" And I do feel like even when in the office, there is no... I sit next to people in the office. I don't sort of have my own-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett33:43

       Glove tower.

   12. GNGary Neville33:44

       Yeah, I don't. I don't. I make sure I go and sit in cafe football in the hotel, or I go and sit in the main restaurant at Stocks or at Salford I'll just go and sit in the main office. Because the idea that basically, you know, he wa- he did have his own office and he did have e- his own space. And he did, to be fair, delegate, and he would keep his... But I- I- so I don't think I'm- I'm like Sir Alex in the way in which I now look at my businesses, because I do believe it's very different now. Um, but he was very... The s- the staff loved him. Everybody loved him at the club, because he protected them. He knew everybody's name. He asked about their families. He knew their family's names. He- he was really, really attentive. He's... But he was far better at that than I am. Far better in that- at that than I am. But I probably, to be fair, mix with my teams more than he maybe would. So... But the work ethic is the thing. Honestly, the only thing you can ever do in life is work as hard as you possibly can and never give in. And he said, "You've got that choice every single day." Really simple. That's it. The talent you've got, you just work as hard as you can every single day and never give in, and then you come back the day after and do it again. And that's it. That's the secret to what he believed. Because he said the talent is his problem. Forget talent. I've chosen you to be here so I'm telling you you've got the talent. Don't you worry about that bit. What I need back in return is that other bit, which is the- the focus, the commitment, the dedication to make sure every single day you get up and you're here and you give your all and you don't give in. And that's why I think I stayed where I was, because I believed in him. I trusted in him. And now it's the same. If someone comes into our business and they've been selected to come in, that's because I believe they've got the talent or someone in our senior management team believe they've got the talent. All they have to do in return now is go for it and give their all and be enthusiastic and not give in and then come back the day after and do it again. And I- I keep it- try and keep it as simple as that. I know there's a lot more to it than that, but it is- it was that simple for us. I know that then there's the tactics, then there's the decision-making, then there's- them there's sort of concent- all the things that go with it. But that was the sort of heart, I think, of every- all the messaging that we got from him.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett35:46

       They almost seem like old-fashioned values, what you're saying.

   14. GNGary Neville35:49

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett35:50

       It al- it almost sounds... And I'm gonna be honest. It almost sounds like what the modern-day professional culture might consider to be a little bit toxic.

   16. GNGary Neville35:59

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett35:59

       You know what I mean?

   18. GNGary Neville36:00

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett36:01

       This- this drive for hard work. But I have to say I've never sat here with anybody that's reached the peak of their powers in their career that hasn't said the same.

   20. GNGary Neville36:10

       But now, if I'm in my businesses, so I don't... Uh, things like I- I don't have the... I'd never work the first week in January. I think it's the most depressing week of the year. After Christmas you've had a high and then you go back, it's dark, it's miserable that first week. So I always take it off. But I always give the rest of our team, in the office that I work in, off as well. So I don't make people do what I'm not gonna do. I'm going away, I think, in three weeks for five days. And I said to everybody in the office, "Don't worry about the fact you've got 28 days in your contract. Those five days you're off. Have the last five days off of the summer, then we'll go for it to Christmas."Also, people are flexible working. They can come in Monday. They don't have to come in Tuesday. They can come in Wednesday. The, I, I trust them to do what they want. So there is an element of, yeah, I want hard, I do expect hard work, but I also want people to have a brilliant time and share in the success that we have, but also make sure that if I'm off, I would expect that they have those times off as well. I wouldn't expect them to come in, uh, I, I don't bel- I hate the idea of a, of work package that's got like, "You've got 25 days holiday. You have to book it in." I hate that. I hate the idea of restriction. I hate it. I feel like it's bullying. "You must sit there in the office." I hate it. It's not right. It is not right. Don't tell people where to sit, how to work. You know, obviously there is a direction and there is a leadership that's needed, but I just feel like it's really not acceptable, partic- and that was, this was pre-COVID. Our office is like, to be fair, this, this, this room that we're in here now.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett37:41

       Mm-hmm.

   22. GNGary Neville37:42

       So someone could be sat there. Someone could be sat there. Someone could be sat on the floor over there with a, with, with a, you know, on, on, on a laptop. That, that's how it should be in an office. It should always be like that, I think. I don't think it needed, I don't think it ever, I don't think it needed COVID-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett37:55

       Mm-hmm.

   24. GNGary Neville37:56

       ... to make modern business act properly with the teams that they work with. So I, I, I, I do feel it's very different than how we were at United, which is old-fashioned value. There's still some old-fashioned values. You have to work hard. You have to get the job done. We know that. But why do you have to say that to people? I think people know they have to work hard and get the job done. So why do you have to say that to them? You're looking to tap into them. Make something unique in your business that makes them want to stay, really. That's what you sort of, you might want to make it enjoyable.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett38:22

       Mm-hmm.

   26. GNGary Neville38:22

       And that can still be enjoyable through hard work. I think, I think it's quite enjoyable working now. (laughs)

   27. SBSteven Bartlett38:28

       Yeah. (laughs) No, I know what-

   28. GNGary Neville38:30

       I don't know what everyone else thinks but-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett38:30

       No, well I know people that work for you obviously 'cause, you know, we've got a, we've got a, we've got a colleague that used to work for me that works for you now, and they're all very, very complimentary. So that's-

   30. GNGary Neville38:37

       (laughs)
7. 44:28 – 1:01:02

   Why are Manchester United failing now?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett44:28

      You, you know when you... And I... This is... I mean, this is not a nice topic to talk about, 'cause we're both Manchester United fans. But through all you've been through and the era you grew up in and all of those famous influencers you had that instilled those values in you-

   2. GNGary Neville44:39

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett44:40

      Um, and even the early initiations you had in that dressing room-

   4. GNGary Neville44:42

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett44:42

      ... from the senior players and... You know, I've read about all of that stuff as well. When you look at what's going on at the club today, even though you're not, you're not in the dressing room, you must have a pretty s- pretty strong hypothesis as to why Manchester United in 2022 are failing, based on what you experienced.

   6. GNGary Neville45:01

      Yeah. I think a lack... Uh, uh, it comes down to a lack of leadership and direction from the top and vision, and, um, a deterioration of the sort of beliefs over a long period of time. Uh, I said last night, actually, that, um, a school that's underperforming over a long period of time and getting poor results gets put in special measures by Ofsted and by government. And they're not blaming the kids. It means that the governors, it means that the sort of the head teachers, the people at the top of the organization at the school have not basically set the standards for those children. And they've let the school basically rot and the results become poor. I think that's what's happened at United. It was a high-performing school. The head teacher has left. The board of the governors left, David Gill. And what's happened since is that they've been replaced with people who haven't got it, and poor standards have just meant that ultimately, over a period of time, there's become an embedded rot. And that's what's happened. And also the kids, the players look now like they haven't got a clue anymore, and they're getting poor results. I don't believe all those Manchester United players that are on that pitch are poor players. When they came to the club, some of those players, I was really excited by their arrivals. And I've seen players that weren't as good as them go to other clubs and excel. So, the environment, the culture, the... yeah, the enthusiasm that you need to go into work every single day, I don't believe it's been created by the hierarchy at the club. And then there's been a sort of a, uh, uh, uh, a lack of investment into the facilities, into the stadium, into the training ground. So now Tottenham, Liverpool... Liverpool now, Liverpool foot-... I used to laugh when I used to go to Anfield, when they used to compare it to Old Trafford. I used to... They can never catch up. They're too far behind. They're just building that second stand now behind that left-hand goal, where the away fans sit. We saw it last night, towering up. The main stand now is towering up, and it holds... I don't... Um, it holds 20,000. Anfield will be a more modern ground than Manchester United and Old Trafford in 12 months. That is unforgivable for m-... To, to think we're... Not only have they overtaken us on the pitch, but actually they've overtaken us off the pitch. Manchester City are lightyears ahead on and off the pitch. Tottenham have invested 1.3 billion in stadium, that... Are you... Have you been to our Tottenham stadium?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett47:19

      Oh, yeah.

   8. GNGary Neville47:20

      It's out of this world.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett47:21

      Yeah.

   10. GNGary Neville47:21

       It's a, it's a-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett47:21

       One of the best in the world.

   12. GNGary Neville47:22

       It's a museum.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett47:23

       Yeah.

   14. GNGary Neville47:23

       It's the best in the world.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett47:23

       Yeah, yeah.

   16. GNGary Neville47:23

       And I can't believe what I'm walking through when I see it. And yet if you go to their training ground, which I've been to, it's an amazing, brilliant facility that is far better than Carrington, where we moved to in 2001. We moved to, to Carrington... Sorry, 2000, we moved to Carrington. We left the Cliff training ground in Salford. So it's 22 years. We just had a bit of investment, but in 20 years, Manchester United have not invested in the stadium, they've not invested in the training ground that much. And then they've lost the two main people. And before you know it, you've got a club that's really struggling. And I've said that in the last couple of years, the only thing that I really do think can change it now is the, is, is the ownership. And I say that on here more calmly than I say on Sky Sports, but it's, it's not an emotive subject anymore. It's a very serious issue. There is an embedded rot at the club.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett48:11

       You know that they're walking past Wendy's balls now, don't you?

   18. GNGary Neville48:14

       Do you know-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett48:14

       Do you know what I mean?

   20. GNGary Neville48:15

       What do you... No. Tha-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett48:15

       A- i- is it like signing Wendy's balls-

   22. GNGary Neville48:17

       Oh, sorry, yes, sorry.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett48:18

       ... personified for me-

   24. GNGary Neville48:19

       Yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett48:20

       ... caring about values in every single touchpoint?

   26. GNGary Neville48:22

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett48:22

       Even the small stuff.

   28. GNGary Neville48:23

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett48:24

       And so, uh, I was thinking then, I, I can almost imagine now those small expressions of our values, as you said, they come from the top down-

   30. GNGary Neville48:30

       Yeah.
8. 1:01:02 – 1:07:15

   Your business

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:02

      Um, one, one of the things that people don't know about you, I believe, because I was... I'm, you know, I'm fairly well read on, on what you do, but I didn't realize this, is just the scale of your kind of business portfolio.... it's m- it's quite honestly mental. I don't do all of the me- the, the media stuff that you do. I'm not, you know, on, on TV all the time presenting football. I'm not in that arena. And when I look at your business portfolio and mine, I'm going, "This guy does as much as I do from a business perspective." But you're not, you're not known to the world, first and foremost, as an entrepreneur. Maybe that's the second thing. People know you as a football legend. Second, second thing would be entrepreneur. And the second thing is you don't even like the word entrepreneur.

   2. GNGary Neville1:01:43

      Not really, no. I don't ... I suppose I ... It's like broadca- I don't like the word broadcaster. Maybe it's a lack ... Maybe that is an insecurity actually, or a vulnerability. People say to me, "You're a broadcaster." But I say, "I don't feel like a broadcaster. I don't feel like I've earned ..." You know, I feel like Martin Tyler or, um, you know, Des Lynam. They're broadcasters.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:01

      Mm-hmm.

   4. GNGary Neville1:02:02

      They're journalists. They've, they're experienced. They do it. I don't feel like a broadcaster, 'cause I fe- still feel young, but I'm not young anymore, that, really, in terms of I've been doing it now for 11, 12 years. And same with entrepreneur. If you c- if you ... I always feel there's something a little bit ... Can I swear?

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:16

      Of course you can. You swear all the time on here.

   6. GNGary Neville1:02:17

      It feels a little bit wankerish-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:19

      (laughs) Yes.

   8. GNGary Neville1:02:19

      ... to say I'm an entrepreneur.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:20

      Even CEO sounds wankerish.

   10. GNGary Neville1:02:22

       Gary Neville, Gary Neville, CEO and entrepreneur. It's like, no.

   11. NANarrator1:02:24

       (laughs)

   12. GNGary Neville1:02:24

       Gary Neville, chairman of The Relentless Group and entrepreneur. No, ugh. Makes me-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:28

       Mm-hmm.

   14. GNGary Neville1:02:28

       ... sort of skin crawl a little bit. But I think, to be fair, probably I should start calling myself that, because I do have ... There w- there is one constant. They're all in Greater Manchester.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:36

       Mm-hmm.

   16. GNGary Neville1:02:36

       Apart from a media career, which can sometimes obviously be in London. But they're all in Greater Manchester, in Salford, Trafford, Manchester city center. And I feel very focused around my investments in that. And for, some people would say, "That's naive. You should expand beyond Greater Manchester." No. I'm passionate about where I come from, where I live, and I want to invest back into that part of the country. So, the two hotels, the football club, the devel- the big developments that we're doing, the university, um, the project management consultancy, all of them in Greater Manchester. Um, and I want to continue to do things. I don't think I'll do many more startups, although The Overlap-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:12

       (laughs)

   18. GNGary Neville1:03:13

       ... is a startup, but I just, startups are hard. Do you think startups are hard?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:16

       Oh, they're so painful.

   20. GNGary Neville1:03:17

       It's ... (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:17

       So, so painful.

   22. GNGary Neville1:03:18

       They're rewarding-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:19

       Yeah.

   24. GNGary Neville1:03:19

       ... but the pain ... I mean, all of mine have been startups.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:21

       Right.

   26. GNGary Neville1:03:21

       So, apart from Salford, which, to be fair, is a bit of a startup. It was like eighth tier. They had 170 fans. They're all startups. So, not one of them has been sort of a business that I've bought into. Which I'm not sure that ... That's, that's the way I like it, 'cause we can influence them and we can make them our ... You know, our culture can come into the sort of businesses. Um, but yeah, I, I wanted to do a lot in business, but in Greater Manchester, build teams. It's the teams part of it that gives me great satisfaction. And then, yeah, I, I love the sectors that I'm in. I love-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:50

       And you ... It's crazy, 'cause y- when I look at your businesses, when I've looked closely at them, you run really good businesses, as it relates to attention to detail. Your hotel in Manchester, The Stock Exchange Hotel-

   28. GNGary Neville1:04:03

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:03

       ... I have to say, is by far my favorite hotel. It's not even close. When I filmed Dragons' Den, the first year, um, all the dragons stay at The Lowry. (laughs)

   30. GNGary Neville1:04:12

       (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:39:38