The Diary of a CEOGymshark CEO: How I Built A $1.5 Billion Business At 19! Ben Francis
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,026 words- 0:00 – 2:18
Intro
- BFBen Francis
If we go right back to the start, (instrumental music plays) I had a vision, I had an idea, and I was so passionate about it. I just want Gymshark to be a truly iconic, great brand, a leader in culture and helps inspire people around the world. That was a period of great self-reflection for me. What am I bad at? What am I good at? And I decided to lean into my strengths. In the early days, I'd have gone, "I'm introverted, shy, you know, and I'm not good at people management," but I didn't want to identify with those things. You should be able to look at those things and try and solve them. (instrumental music plays) Everything came crashing down around me 'cause, because there was nowhere to hide. But that definitely hit me and it definitely hurt me, and I, I really felt like I was carrying that burden. Honestly, just keep trying and keep trying and don't be afraid to fail. I think that's so, so, so important. I've never met anyone who was genuinely successful that wasn't hardworking. (instrumental music plays)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ben Francis, the guest that you requested again and again and again. He is the founder and now the CEO of Gymshark, the global gym brand worth billions and billions and billions that started right here in the UK. Founded by Ben, who was in his early 20s and who is still in his 20s now, as he's leading the global brand all around the world with 900 employees. This is a conversation I have honestly looked forward to for a long, long time because there is nobody else in the UK like Ben, that has built such an iconic company that you see everywhere, that has maintained its integrity while they're still in their 20s. Ben's net worth is probably pretty close to or over a billion dollars, and remarkably, he's one of the most humble individuals, one of the most introspective, self-aware people I've ever met, a really good guy. And if you're someone that someday might wanna follow in his footsteps, or you wanna build a business or just pursue the thing that matters to you the most, then this is the conversation for you. I can't wait for you to hear this. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays)
- 2:18 – 15:16
Your early years
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ben, when I look back on my life, I only in hindsight have managed to start piecing together some pieces that have enlightened me to why I became the person I went on to become and why I had the interests and skills and all those things, and also, like, the insecurities. Um, when I look at your early years back in Bromsgrove at school, I started to, like, connect a few dots, but I wanted to know, in your own sort of self-assessment, whether you, you can now see any patterns from your early years that you would consider an anomaly that caused you to become the anomaly you are today?
- BFBen Francis
Um, so, so I, I think I had two sort of really lucky moments. So the, the first one was at about 14 years old. I think it was about 14. You know when you do work experience?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- BFBen Francis
So everyone does sort of work experience at school. Um, and the work experience that I did at that age was basically with my grandad. And what my grandad would do is he would travel around the Midlands, um, and he would line furnaces. So furnaces, big ovens, basically, where you, we would stick airplane parts in and it would heat them up, loosely speaking. Um, and then what he would do is go around and fill them with either ceramic fiber or brick. So I basically did work experience with him, did a bit of laboring, and I would be sort of on the sort of, uh, cement mix of the drum, and I would basically pass him cement or, um, he would teach me to, like, push in, uh, ceramic fiber or lay bricks or whatever. Now, it wasn't actually the work that was important as such, other than the fact that it did teach me hard work, but it was more the fact that they were, they were long days, and through those days, we would have conversations that, like, to be honest, in hindsight, probably not too many younger kids would have been exposed to, um, because it was, it was all about, like, the risk that he took in the business and the intricacies and so on. He would just talk to me about that, and I'd ask him questions and stuff and there, there was one particular job that he did that he told me about, and it was, it was building a furnace to be shipped off to Germany. And he'd basically risked pretty much everything he had on this one particular job, um, and he told me about all the worries, the concerns, the, you know, the worries that he had in terms of, you know, keeping, you know, the house for my nan, my mom, her sister. Um, and at the time, it didn't really... I don't know, to me, it was just a story that my grandad was telling me. But then as I grew up and then I started taking business risks of my own, I do remember thinking, "Oh, yeah, but my risk are nothing compared to his." So I think that certainly helped. And like I said, just learning that hard work, I think watching my mum, my mum's worked in the NHS my entire life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
She was incredibly, incredibly hardworking. I also got fortunate at school because I did... So I did my GCSEs, and I wasn't... I didn't do particularly well. I was sort of like a D-ish student, sort of, like, pretty average. I ended up getting into sixth form, I was super lucky, and one of the classes that I took then was a BTEC in IT.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
And that... I don't know if you remember the BTECs. You had A levels or BTECs, I'm not sure if it's still like that in the day.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I remember.
- BFBen Francis
And loosely speaking then, A levels were you'd study, you'd do an exam, and BTECs were coursework or practical work. To do IT or tech in a practical way for a, for a BTEC for me was amazing, and that was a huge moment because through that BTEC, I learned how to use Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Illustrator, all of the, like, the nuts and bolts that actually I ended up using to build Gymshark. So the combination of learning those bits of software alongside the fact that watching my grandparents and my parents work incredibly hard, the risks that my grandad took to build his business, all of those things, I think, certainly helped me when it came to starting up the businesses that I started.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What does, what does that say to you about the type of learner you are though, that it was the practical...
- BFBen Francis
Definitely practical, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. And that's been evident even today, right? Because I remember you saying on, on a conversation you had that, um-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... one of the real privileges of your job is you get to go and learn from the experts in your, inside of your business.
- BFBen Francis
Gymshark was started in 2012, and for the first few years it was sort of like, uh, uh, I mean it was me and a bunch of mates basically, and my brother came on and we sort of started to build a business and ev- everything reso- revolved in many ways around, around myself. And then as the business started to grow, it became clear to me there was a genuine opportunity, right? And, listen, we were doing well, we could do decent revenues and so on, but there's a difference between doing well and doing, I don't know, a few thousand pounds in revenue to, "Oh, wow, this, this could go into the hundreds of thousands or the millions." And, and as the business grew, I then started to realize that I needed to sur- surround myself with great people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
Um, so that, that really helped, and I, I think I got lucky at the start as well because the people that I then surrounded myself with helped the business grow, so I was sort of positively reinforced as well from an, an early age doing that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where, where did those peop- where did those people come from? I've always wondered this because you, uh, yeah, last time we spoke and in subsequent interviews-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you've always cited those people like Steven who-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... was the CEO of, of Gymshark-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and others as being really, really instrumental.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And they, it almost felt like they were like mentors.
- BFBen Francis
Yes, they were, yeah. So, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did you find them?
- BFBen Francis
So, uh, I'll tell you what happened, right? So, and this is, this is interesting as well because maybe I don't think this is probably spoken about enough. As an entrepreneur, particularly of a growing business, and you'll, you'll know this as well as me, not only do you have to wear loads of different hats on a, on a daily basis, but people don't talk enough about the fact that during the growth of the business, you have to completely change who you are as a person, not only because you're developing and you're trying to improve, but because the business is a separate entity from yourself and the business requires different things of its founder or chief exec depending on the size of the business. So in the early days, and I don't know how to put this in the nicest way possible, but I think I was a bit arrogant, right? It was a bit like, "This is my baby, I know where I wanna take it, and I'm gonna drag it there, and I don't, I don't really care what you say because this is my vision." And that worked to a point, right? I had, I had a vision, I had an idea, and I was so and I still am so passionate about it. And then all of a sudden, I don't know how this happened, I think it was just, it naturally happened through just asking questions. I've always been quite inquisitive. Then sort of you start surrounding yourself with, with, you know, with great people and, um, I would, I would go to the gym, right, and I would find, like, who, a guy called Paul who was like the business guy and I'd go and ask him questions and stuff. And all of a sudden when you surround yourself with those people, you realize this whole thing of, "I don't care what you say, I'm gonna do what I want anyway," that doesn't work, or it works for a period and then they disappear. So then I realized that I then ha- can't be arrogant, single-minded, moving where I want to go. I need to retain a bit of that, right? But what I need to do is, one, learn to work with people, and more importantly learn to work with great people. So that happened, and I met Paul at the gym, um, and that was just for asking questions. Paul introduced me to Steve because Steve had previously worked at Reebok-
- 15:16 – 18:15
Co-founders
- BFBen Francis
it was difficult.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I started Social Chain with a co-founder.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You did too as well-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... from what I understand, Lewis.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, there's very little written about why- why he's no longer with you.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm guessing, I'm guessing from what I've read that there was just a- a difference in opinion about the future and you decided to go your- your separate ways?
- BFBen Francis
Yeah, and I think to be fair, I think Lewis was- Lewis was great, right? In the early days, we would l- we were literally inseparable. And I think there came a point where, you're right, I had my vision and I think he had his vision, and I just wanna be clear as like I don't think one is better than the other.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
It was just a difference of opinion. And to be fair to him, he had so many other interests in terms of investment and property and all these different things. So Lewis essentially left in, I'm gonna say 2014. I could be wrong.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
The bi- maybe 2015. The business was founded in 2012. I think he left the business in 2015. Um, and then he basically retained-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
... 20% of his shareholding, and then in the deal that was last year, he then sold out the rest of that and now he's, uh, investing and doing other things.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And were you friends before?
- BFBen Francis
We... Yeah, we were. Yeah. Well, so we met in that IT class that I spoke about.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, really?
- BFBen Francis
So we met in IT when we were 16, 17?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
Whenever the first year of sort of post-school is college, sixth- sixth form. We met then, and then we just went to the gym together.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then...
- BFBen Francis
And there- there was a group of like six, seven, eight of us that would all go to the gym sort of every day together.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And had you decided who did what? So w- were you the CEO and he- or were you both CEOs or was it just-
- BFBen Francis
Um, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what happened?
- BFBen Francis
That- that... So in the early days, that never really happened. It was just a bit like- it was a bit like, "Right, this- this is a list of things that we need to do. Let's just tackle them as we go." There was no organization in those days. And I think as the business then got more organized, that's when- I think that's when our visions started to maybe move in separate directions.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Could that have been why then? Because there wasn't clear like structure at the start that-
- 18:15 – 36:00
Developing yourself personally & within Gymshark
- SBSteven Bartlett
So talk to me about that. So first time we met, I- it was actually on a different series I was running at the time called, like, Everyday Entrepreneurs or something.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And when I met you at Gymshark's office, I did notice that you were very nervous.
- BFBen Francis
So that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Very different from how you are today.
- BFBen Francis
... that, that was about 2015, wasn't it?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
That was in the early days. Yeah, so hopefully-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
... you can see the change that's happened in me from then to here.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's like 20 diff- yeah, 20 times different.
- BFBen Francis
And that, so that was the period, that was a period of great self-reflection for me, and that was when I was literally going, "Right, what am I bad at, what am I good at, and what's my choice?" So actually around that point, I'd split the two out, good, bad, and I decided to lean into my strengths. I did that for about three or four years, and then I was like, "Right, now I'm really comfortable with my strengths, I know what I'm good at, now I'm gonna lean into my weaknesses and I'm gonna become good at public speaking," I don't know, people management, all these other things. So the, yeah, when we met, I was definitely a lot more nervous. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I, it's so fun- 'cause I, I literally remember meeting you, and I obviously had this, this idea of meeting you, this young guy-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... who's made this killer business-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... whatever, whatever, whatever. I was, my anticipation was that you were gonna be, like, loud and, like, really whatever.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you were so quiet.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I could tell you were, you were nervous about the conversation. Um, and I would never have guessed that. You're totally different now.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And which I think is incredible, because it's just like two com- for me, it's, like, very, very different people and it's a testament to your growth.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But I was, I was really, really surprised, and I, I wanna share that because, um, it, I think there is, uh, a lot of people listening, young entrepreneurs or people that wanna, that think, you know, how you are now is how you will be and there's no-
- BFBen Francis
Oh, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... there's no development or...
- BFBen Francis
No, and this is the thing where I think what, what you need to do, again even more, I think, I think everyone should do this, whatever field of work they're in or whatever, but particularly as an entrepreneur, because I feel like as an entrepreneur, everything's just amplified, right? Your, your wins are bigger, your losses are, are larger again, um, your weaknesses are, you know, are exposed because you are exposed to the business and the world in many respects. But what you need to do is you need to write down, like, your character traits. The best example would be, and this is one that I'm currently working on, right, is people will be like, I don't know, "Oh, I'm messy," or, "I'm always li-" or, "I'm always late, I'm messy, what am I like?" And it's a, the conversation for me is a bit like, okay, you're messy and you're always late, but those things should be up for grabs, right? You should be able to look at those things and go, don't roll your eyes and say, "That's just me," 'cause it's not, or it doesn't have to be. 'Cause if I'd have done that in the early days, I'd have gone, "I'm introverted, shy, not good in front of cameras, terrible at public speaking, and I'm not good at people management," but I didn't want to identify with those things, I didn't wanna say, "Ben is that," because I didn't want to be that. And I think everyone, if you can somehow, and I, I don't, I think I was lucky because I was surrounded by great people, right? So it's definitely easier said than done, but if you can try and not identify with those things, those parts of yourself that aren't maybe ideal, um, and you can, again, look at them in a logical manner, as you would any other problem in life, and try and solve them, so I'm not good at people management, fine. Who's the best person I know that is? I'm gonna go and chat to them, I'm gonna pick their brains. Or, even better, I'm just gonna watch them. Because some people learn from just watching. Some people learn just by watching, and so Steve, for example, who's the, who was the CEO at Gymshark previously, we didn't have that many, "Steve, teach me how to people manage, Steve, teach me how to public speak." Like, we didn't really do that. But by him doing it, I just watched him, and I understood the traits or the things that he would do that helped him be great at that, and then I just basically learned them and tried them and tried them and tried them and eventually got reasonably good at doing those things.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things linked to that that I always say is, um, there's no self-devel- development without self-awareness.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- 36:00 – 38:34
The Worst Character traits in business
- BFBen Francis
- SBSteven Bartlett
What um- ... In your ... 'Cause I have this a lot as well. What are the- what some of the character traits you see in people that work with you-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in- in your organization that you- you don't like? So if-
- BFBen Francis
Oh, don't like?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, you don't like. So if you-
- BFBen Francis
Oh, God.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause- 'cause if- if I ask my team, if I said to them, "What are some of the things that Steve doesn't like?" from ... in terms of character perspective-
- BFBen Francis
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... uh, they would- they would know.
- BFBen Francis
Uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I feel like they would know 'cause ... (laughs)
- BFBen Francis
And to be, uh, so to be fair, I don't get too much of this, but I just don't want people to agree with me because. Like, I want to be challenged all the time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
Like, for me-... we want the best outcome.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
I don't care if it's my opinion or your opinion, I want the best outcome. And if my idea's crap, tell me. It's cool, it's fine.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
I will not take it personally. So I don't want people, I don't want like, you know, the whole thing of a, a yes man, yes person, whatever you wanna call it. I think... uh, it's not to say that I don't like it, but I know that individuals that really struggle with change don't tend to do well at companies like Gymshark. If you just want a nine to five that is gonna be consistent and stay the same, then it's definitely not the right place for you, because it's so rapidly changing, not only because of the business itself, but because of the world that we're in.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
Like, 10 years ago, Facebook was only small. Snapchat didn't really exist. Instagram barely existed. Um, Shopify was very small. Like a lot the, the ecosystem of the world that we play in-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
... was completely different. So change as well, I think is important.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I can comple- completely agree. And, and uh, I've, I've heard a few of, of your friends and people within your team describe you as being a bit of a perfectionist as well, in terms of having to hide-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... sort of a- a tension of detail.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that... Do you, do you consider yourself to have, to be a perfectionist?
- BFBen Francis
I don't know. I don't think so. I definitely don't have a massive attention to detail. I've got the attention span of a gnat.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- 38:34 – 45:57
Learning how to speak infront of people & a camera
- BFBen Francis
it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things you started recently as well is your vlog online.
- BFBen Francis
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and if we go back to when I, that day that I first met you, and I, I could s- tell that you, you know, you were nervous in that context-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and the guy you are today. Two questions for you.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, did you, did you do some sort of, um... Did you have professional support in developing your ability to speak so fluently and, and articulate your ideas so well? Um, and then we'll move onto chatting about-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... why you're doing the vlog.
- BFBen Francis
So I, so there's two things. So public speaking, one, in front of a camera, two, in front of an audience or whatever you want-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
... to call it, to, uh, to a group, I found those as two very different things.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
And it's weird, right, because if I... So Steve would be great in front of an audience, but struggle in front of a camera.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- BFBen Francis
I was fortunate, my other half, Robin, was a YouTuber, so she's brilliant in front of a camera, and she taught me how to work in front of a camera basically. Not through, (laughs) uh, I don't know, I don't know, it was just through brute just keep going, keep going, stick a fr- camera in front of me. In the first vlog, she recorded and edited the whole thing. Um, so she taught me how to sort of work in front of a camera. I did have public speaking lessons, uh, and that was massively life-changing for me. And the, um, going back to that list of, of things, by the way, when I s- I said about these are the things I'm good at, these are the things that I'm bad at, one of those things was public speaking. Um, and this is why I'm, I'm such a massive advocate of making a list, right, because public speaking was one of the many things on my list which was a weakness. But I didn't then immediately go and draw out a plan. I just had that list, and I said, I know... I think I had it as my wallpaper on my phone. Public speaking is something I'm bad at. And then I was at an event or something, I can't remember what it was. It w- I think there was an event at Gymshark. And I'm chatting away to people, chatting away, chatting away, and said, "Hello, I'm Ben. How are you? Have a great day. You know, what do you do?" A- and someone said, "Oh, I'm a public speaking coach." And then all of a sudden I've gone boom, light bulb. "I'm terrible at public speaking, you're a public speaking coach." And I was like, "Can you teach me?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- BFBen Francis
And, and that's literally how it happened. But if I hadn't have sat there, done that work, and written it down, it probably would have gone, gone on, right? I probably would have said, "Oh, okay, enjoy your day. I'll see you soon. It was lovely to meet you." And then, uh, I had public speaking lessons. I did s- I did actually, um... Shopify actually put me on a public speaking sort of camera, uh, thing, which was cool. Then I did some here back in the UK and just slowly worked at it. And, and then the thing that really helped me was just, uh, and I wouldn't probably do this now due to time, but it was just saying yes to things, just saying, "Yep, I'm gonna do it. And you know what? I'm gonna make a fool of myself." I'm sure there's some footage somewhere of me sweating and shuffling around a stage somewhere, like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- BFBen Francis
... falling over my words and being terrible at it. But, you know, that's just a necessary evil to get g- get good at anything really.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did the, the public speaking lessons, was there like key principles or key exercises-
- BFBen Francis
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that, that you, you felt actually moved the needle for you? Was there anything there that maybe someone listening to this that's a really bad speaker might, might be able to steal?
- BFBen Francis
There's a, um, there's a few bits. So there's one that, that, that they told me, and there's a, there's a quote I've seen online. I think it's a Winston Churchill quote. Whether or not it's true.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- BFBen Francis
You know, you steal these quotes, and whether or not they're true or not.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
There's one where he, it says, um, "I'm just preparing my impromptu remarks," which is like, obviously impromptu remark is a quick-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 45:57 – 51:06
Why are you vlogging inside gymshark?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You now run what was voted I think 2016, 2017, one of the fastest growing company in this country.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's still one of the fastest growing companies in this country. It's worth billions and billions and billions.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and you've decided that you're going to vlog inside the company.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
This is not what CEOs do, Ben.
- BFBen Francis
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
They don't, you don't see them. You never get to ... You know, like think about all the big companies, it's very controlled PR.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why, why do you think that matters?
- BFBen Francis
Because if we go back to me on the inside working with my granddad and being able to learn about those stories-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
... that, that e- eventually led to, in many ways, the Gymshark we see today, I think I would love to be able to provide that to other people around the world, particularly here. First and foremost, it can be done, right? So you can start a business in the UK, whatever, in, in, in this world, online, and it can become a unicorn in under 10 years. And if you don't want to, you don't have to go and borrow a load of money. You don't have to highly leverage yourself. If you're a problem solver, you're open-minded, and you're self-aware, it can be done. And I think one, that ... I think that's the first sort of like step for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Let me come at that one then, 'cause I know, 'cause I've, I know what people are saying.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They're saying, "Ben, no, that's, you know, it's all good, all well and good you saying that 'cause you've done it-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... but I can't, I can't do it. I'm, I don't know what you know, and I'm, uh, I don't, you know, I don't know anything about computers. And it's all well and good you saying that, but you were ..." A- and this is what people will say-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... 'cause they said it to me. "Well, you were lucky. You, you know, your timing and..."
- BFBen Francis
And, and by the way, I was incredibly lucky.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
Massively lucky. You're g- and that would be completely right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
Um, and listen, I, I would completely understand that. But for the, for some that want to, then that to me is, it is a proof of when it can be done. Now, I am very well aware of the fact that I was very lucky, one, in the people I've met, two, in terms of timing. So fitness was on the up, right? In the early 2000s, all over the news was obesity rates are rising. So fitness was on the up because people were encouraging people into the gym and fitness. Um, direct to consumer came out of nowhere. People were more comfortable in the sort of 2010s than ever buying things online, right? In the early 2000s, people were, weren't that comfortable buying online from a company they had never heard of, let alone one from, right, another country abroad. But number three, we had social media.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
Those three forces converging at the point where Gymshark was founded-... is completely and utterly luck, and I, I do understand that. But I'm also aware of the fact that there's loads of those things happening elsewhere in the world right now that, you know, probably aren't being completely taken advantage of. So I am aware of the fact that it's luck, but, um, I also think as well, in me doing this, I'd like to think that regardless, even if you don't want to start your own business, which by the way is completely cool, like, and I'll probably say in many respects that's probably a good idea, 'cause it, it is very difficult to do this, um, I still think there's lessons that can be learned. And I, I love the thought of people being able to take something away from the Gymshark story and create something cool of their own.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It also gives you this weird type of defense-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- 51:06 – 58:32
Gymshark through the pandemic
- SBSteven Bartlett
reason why I started this. So the pandemic comes around.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, talk me through how it was being a CEO throughout that, 'cause one of the really remarkable things is you didn't furlough anybody, you didn't-
- BFBen Francis
No, we didn't. So I wasn't CEO at the start of COVID. I came in in August.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
But the... So that was interesting. So we, we were lucky again, because we were completely set up for Zoom, everyone has laptops, we're, you know, we're a digital business. So working from home, thanks to our tech team and the in- and the investments they made, from a systems perspective, it wasn't, like, tough. I know there are other companies that not everyone had a laptop and so on-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
... so that, I couldn't imagine where to start there. Um, and we had that moment where... So what, what we have is, because we have, we have an office in Hong Kong, we have offices in the UK, we have offices in the US, and we literally saw, 'cause COVID sort of came from the East to the West, didn't it?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
And we saw Hong Kong closed, right? Everyone went into lockdown. And there was this bit where, I know I was thinking, "Oh, it'll never happen here. Never happen here," until it did, right? And then, boom, lockdown, everyone working from home. And, um, I was in... What was I doing at that point? I think I was just finished opening marketing, and I think I was moving into product at that point. And th- the moment that caught me, which was within, like, 24 hours of being locked down, I was lucky, I have an office at home, I shut the door, I've got a desk, and I can just work through that, and when I'm finished, I can close the door at the end of the day. And I was chatting to someone, and they were like... They had a, they were s- in a studio apartment in Birmingham City Centre, and their partner was making their breakfast behind them, and they were sort of, like, like, balancing their laptop on the work surface. And it, it was all just... I remember chatting to her and thinking, "Okay, this is gonna be really just, really tough for some people from a professional perspective." And then I'm chatting to my mum, who worked at the QE in Birmingham City Centre, uh, Hospital in Selly Oak, she was telling me about what was going on there, and I was like... It was very, it... I became very aware very quickly that this was a, a big thing, or it was gonna be a big thing. Um, so yeah, managing through that was, was really, really, really tough. Um, listen, commercially, the business did okay. Like, people were shopping online, and it, you know, there were more people working out from home, they were cycling, they were running. That side of the business did well. But managing hundreds of staff around the world working from home-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
... mental health, making sure that we're supporting them through complete uncertainty was definitely difficult.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what, where'd you land then? So having seen that member of your team on the ironing board in that studio apartment-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... where'd you land on this whole remote working debate that-
- BFBen Francis
Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what is Gymshark? What's it a- what's your in Gymshark?
- BFBen Francis
So we, we... I mean, listen, there are people at Gymshark that work remotely, and it works for them, and that's fine. Personally, I'm a little bit old school, and I'm in the office pretty much every day, unless I'm, you know, out at meetings. I just love to be in the office. Um, that doesn't mean it's right or wrong. I'm sure I would probably do a, a day, maybe a month or a quarter working from home if I need to, like, work through things. Because when we did work from home, I found that I finally got to my to-do list-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
... which was useful, um, and I'd never really got to that previously. Um, we're sort of open-minded. There are some people that remote work, it makes sense for them. Um, as long as it makes sense for the business as well as them, that's cool. Personally, I like to be in the office.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you have this big amazing office-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in, in the UK especially. I mean, you have a few, but the one in, uh, Birmingham? So, uh-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah. Solihull, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Solihull is a tremendous new- like, newly built-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... campus almost-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that you've built. Um-What role does that play? 'Cause I'm, I'm in the camp of, I love the office as well.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- 58:32 – 1:03:42
What do you wish you knew sooner in business?
- BFBen Francis
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I- when I reflect on, um, early days of starting my business, there was a lot of unknown unknowns, a lot of things that I wished someone had just told me sooner, or-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... a lesson that it took me three or four years to learn.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It, when you look back at some of the things you wish you knew sooner, that would've maybe even put what is a phenomenal business even further ahead-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... if, w- what are those things that come to mind?
- BFBen Francis
Um, I'm interested in, interested to hear what you think. But-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
For- for me, given my skill set, we didn't invest in the foundations of the business early enough. I- I was, going back to being arrogant at the start, I- I didn't really respect what maybe the ops or finance people of this world did. I, the- the- the foundation elements of the business, to me, were nowhere near as exciting or fun as the front end element to the business, the product, the brand, and the marketing. So I think if we'd have better prepared ourselves for that, from a, like you said, data, ops, finance, all these things, I think Gymshark would've grown far quicker. And I mean, in terms of what, especially with what you guys did, particularly at SocialCa- Chain, you were ahead of your time in that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
... in terms of bringing all these pages and channels together and almost packaging-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
... them up for different businesses and brands. So, you must have struggled with that as well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, my God, my answer's the exact same as yours. It's just, I was exact- I was exactly the same guy. I thought that the thing that would move the needle most was what I did and what I knew.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then it wasn't until you hire one really great person, and you go, "Fucking hell, that's, that's what good look," and, th- look at-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... all the things I don't know.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I, it, I think it took me two, maybe three years to realize the importance of really great talent.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that my skills and my talents weren't actually gonna matter that much, especially at a 700, 800 people business.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah, the, um, that's the thing, great people are amazing. We did a trip, uh, to Fiji years and years ago, and it was the first time I got to spend time with Harley, uh, at Shopify, Harley Finkelstein, and, uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- BFBen Francis
... Toby at Shopify.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- BFBen Francis
So, like, these are, like, some top, top entrepreneurs. And there was- there was a load of other people there. I remember sat, I didn't even barely say anything, I remember sat listening to them, and I was thinking to myself...... Gymshark's like a, all the people, or certainly even me, I felt like I was like a local football club player. These are like Premier League, international stars. They were like another level compared to what I was and, and we were in the business. So to be able to see, though, when you see a great operator, like look at Zuckerberg. People just look at Zuckerberg as like a guy or Elon or whatever. These people are gonna be so efficient and frighteningly intelligent and adaptable and resilient that you, without meeting them, I genuinely don't think you'd be able to fathom it. I obviously haven't met them, but I could- I- I- having met people like Harley and Toby, they were on another level to anyone that I'd met before. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
So true.
- 1:03:42 – 1:13:57
Struggles with business personally
- SBSteven Bartlett
Talking about doing that which is within your power, you've managed to seemingly avoid, um, the, the toll of business getting to you. My business partner has been very open on this podcast-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... about how the stress of business made him anxious and then he suffered with depression and then he became, in his own words, basically like a functional, functional alcoholic.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, y- y- it doesn't seem to have touched you in the same wa- I mean, have you ever experienced anxiety or-
- BFBen Francis
Um, yeah, I've, uh, listen, I've definitely struggled. There were points where, again, when I was first sort of, I felt like I was first going out on my own, um, in 2015. There have been periods where, uh, you know, social media maybe has turned on the business and myself. Um, it's definitely been really difficult at times. There's been points where-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Social media turned on the business and yourself?
- BFBen Francis
Uh, so we, there was a, there was something that happened last, I think it was last year or the year before, where someone at Gymshark on the channel, on the, on their social channel basically commented back to someone, um, I can't remember exactly what was said, but basically it was around a, uh, uh, Blue Lives Matter, you know how you had the sort of-
Episode duration: 1:36:36
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