Gymshark CEO: How I Built A $1.5 Billion Business At 19! Ben Francis

Ben Francis 0:00 If we go right back to the start, (instrumental music plays) I had a vision, I had an idea, and I was so passionate about it. I just want Gymshark to be a truly iconic, great brand, a leader in culture and helps inspire people around the world. That was a period of great self-reflection for me. What am I bad at? What am I good at? And I decided to lean into my strengths. In the early days, I'd have gone, "I'm introverted, shy, you know, and I'm not good at people management," but I didn't want to identify with those things. You should be able to look at those things and try and solve them. (instrumental music plays) Everything came crashing down around me 'cause, because there was nowhere to hide. But that definitely hit me and it definitely hurt me, and I, I really felt like I was carrying that burden. Honestly, just keep trying and keep trying and don't be afraid to fail. I think that's so, so, so important. I've never met anyone who was genuinely successful that wasn't hardworking. (instrumental music plays)

Steven Bartlett 0:55 Ben Francis, the guest that you requested again and again and again. He is the founder and now the CEO of Gymshark, the global gym brand worth billions and billions and billions that started right here in the UK. Founded by Ben, who was in his early 20s and who is still in his 20s now, as he's leading the global brand all around the world with 900 employees. This is a conversation I have honestly looked forward to for a long, long time because there is nobody else in the UK like Ben, that has built such an iconic company that you see everywhere, that has maintained its integrity while they're still in their 20s. Ben's net worth is probably pretty close to or over a billion dollars, and remarkably, he's one of the most humble individuals, one of the most introspective, self-aware people I've ever met, a really good guy. And if you're someone that someday might wanna follow in his footsteps, or you wanna build a business or just pursue the thing that matters to you the most, then this is the conversation for you. I can't wait for you to hear this. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays)

Steven Bartlett 2:18 Ben, when I look back on my life, I only in hindsight have managed to start piecing together some pieces that have enlightened me to why I became the person I went on to become and why I had the interests and skills and all those things, and also, like, the insecurities. Um, when I look at your early years back in Bromsgrove at school, I started to, like, connect a few dots, but I wanted to know, in your own sort of self-assessment, whether you, you can now see any patterns from your early years that you would consider an anomaly that caused you to become the anomaly you are today?

Ben Francis 2:55 Um, so, so I, I think I had two sort of really lucky moments. So the, the first one was at about 14 years old. I think it was about 14. You know when you do work experience?

Steven Bartlett 3:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Francis 3:08 So everyone does sort of work experience at school. Um, and the work experience that I did at that age was basically with my grandad. And what my grandad would do is he would travel around the Midlands, um, and he would line furnaces. So furnaces, big ovens, basically, where you, we would stick airplane parts in and it would heat them up, loosely speaking. Um, and then what he would do is go around and fill them with either ceramic fiber or brick. So I basically did work experience with him, did a bit of laboring, and I would be sort of on the sort of, uh, cement mix of the drum, and I would basically pass him cement or, um, he would teach me to, like, push in, uh, ceramic fiber or lay bricks or whatever. Now, it wasn't actually the work that was important as such, other than the fact that it did teach me hard work, but it was more the fact that they were, they were long days, and through those days, we would have conversations that, like, to be honest, in hindsight, probably not too many younger kids would have been exposed to, um, because it was, it was all about, like, the risk that he took in the business and the intricacies and so on. He would just talk to me about that, and I'd ask him questions and stuff and there, there was one particular job that he did that he told me about, and it was, it was building a furnace to be shipped off to Germany. And he'd basically risked pretty much everything he had on this one particular job, um, and he told me about all the worries, the concerns, the, you know, the worries that he had in terms of, you know, keeping, you know, the house for my nan, my mom, her sister. Um, and at the time, it didn't really... I don't know, to me, it was just a story that my grandad was telling me. But then as I grew up and then I started taking business risks of my own, I do remember thinking, "Oh, yeah, but my risk are nothing compared to his." So I think that certainly helped. And like I said, just learning that hard work, I think watching my mum, my mum's worked in the NHS my entire life.

Steven Bartlett 4:49 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 4:49 She was incredibly, incredibly hardworking. I also got fortunate at school because I did... So I did my GCSEs, and I wasn't... I didn't do particularly well. I was sort of like a D-ish student, sort of, like, pretty average. I ended up getting into sixth form, I was super lucky, and one of the classes that I took then was a BTEC in IT.

Steven Bartlett 5:06 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 5:06 And that... I don't know if you remember the BTECs. You had A levels or BTECs, I'm not sure if it's still like that in the day.

Steven Bartlett 5:11 Yeah, I remember.

Ben Francis 5:11 And loosely speaking then, A levels were you'd study, you'd do an exam, and BTECs were coursework or practical work. To do IT or tech in a practical way for a, for a BTEC for me was amazing, and that was a huge moment because through that BTEC, I learned how to use Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Illustrator, all of the, like, the nuts and bolts that actually I ended up using to build Gymshark. So the combination of learning those bits of software alongside the fact that watching my grandparents and my parents work incredibly hard, the risks that my grandad took to build his business, all of those things, I think, certainly helped me when it came to starting up the businesses that I started.

Steven Bartlett 5:50 What does, what does that say to you about the type of learner you are though, that it was the practical...

Ben Francis 5:53 Definitely practical, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:54 Yeah. And that's been evident even today, right? Because I remember you saying on, on a conversation you had that, um-

Ben Francis 6:00 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:00 ... one of the real privileges of your job is you get to go and learn from the experts in your, inside of your business.

Ben Francis 6:08 Gymshark was started in 2012, and for the first few years it was sort of like, uh, uh, I mean it was me and a bunch of mates basically, and my brother came on and we sort of started to build a business and ev- everything reso- revolved in many ways around, around myself. And then as the business started to grow, it became clear to me there was a genuine opportunity, right? And, listen, we were doing well, we could do decent revenues and so on, but there's a difference between doing well and doing, I don't know, a few thousand pounds in revenue to, "Oh, wow, this, this could go into the hundreds of thousands or the millions." And, and as the business grew, I then started to realize that I needed to sur- surround myself with great people.

Steven Bartlett 6:47 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 6:48 Um, so that, that really helped, and I, I think I got lucky at the start as well because the people that I then surrounded myself with helped the business grow, so I was sort of positively reinforced as well from an, an early age doing that.

Steven Bartlett 6:58 Where, where did those peop- where did those people come from? I've always wondered this because you, uh, yeah, last time we spoke and in subsequent interviews-

Ben Francis 7:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 7:06 ... you've always cited those people like Steven who-

Ben Francis 7:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:08 ... was the CEO of, of Gymshark-

Ben Francis 7:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:10 ... and others as being really, really instrumental.

Ben Francis 7:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:13 And they, it almost felt like they were like mentors.

Ben Francis 7:16 Yes, they were, yeah. So, so-

Steven Bartlett 7:18 How did you find them?

Ben Francis 7:19 So, uh, I'll tell you what happened, right? So, and this is, this is interesting as well because maybe I don't think this is probably spoken about enough. As an entrepreneur, particularly of a growing business, and you'll, you'll know this as well as me, not only do you have to wear loads of different hats on a, on a daily basis, but people don't talk enough about the fact that during the growth of the business, you have to completely change who you are as a person, not only because you're developing and you're trying to improve, but because the business is a separate entity from yourself and the business requires different things of its founder or chief exec depending on the size of the business. So in the early days, and I don't know how to put this in the nicest way possible, but I think I was a bit arrogant, right? It was a bit like, "This is my baby, I know where I wanna take it, and I'm gonna drag it there, and I don't, I don't really care what you say because this is my vision." And that worked to a point, right? I had, I had a vision, I had an idea, and I was so and I still am so passionate about it. And then all of a sudden, I don't know how this happened, I think it was just, it naturally happened through just asking questions. I've always been quite inquisitive. Then sort of you start surrounding yourself with, with, you know, with great people and, um, I would, I would go to the gym, right, and I would find, like, who, a guy called Paul who was like the business guy and I'd go and ask him questions and stuff. And all of a sudden when you surround yourself with those people, you realize this whole thing of, "I don't care what you say, I'm gonna do what I want anyway," that doesn't work, or it works for a period and then they disappear. So then I realized that I then ha- can't be arrogant, single-minded, moving where I want to go. I need to retain a bit of that, right? But what I need to do is, one, learn to work with people, and more importantly learn to work with great people. So that happened, and I met Paul at the gym, um, and that was just for asking questions. Paul introduced me to Steve because Steve had previously worked at Reebok-

Steven Bartlett 9:07 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 9:07 ... um, and that sort of fitness sportswear sort of thing, um, made sense. I ended up meeting, uh, a guy called Neron who worked in a, like a local company.

Steven Bartlett 9:17 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 9:17 Uh, funnily enough actually on that, I, um, I c- I hadn't spoke... I saw I'd met Neron when I was a kid. I don't know, I was like 13, 14 years old or something, and then we just sort of never kept in touch. We went to uni and whatever. And there was a point where I was really struggling with something. I can't remember what it was. It was something to do with like selling things online, and I knew that he worked in another e-commerce company so I sort of messaged him, I think it was on Facebook at the time-

Steven Bartlett 9:39 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 9:39 "Hi, Neron. Long time no speak. Do you mind if I pick your brain on a new thi- on a few things?" He ended up coming in, advising us greatly, and then he ended up joining the business. So I think looking back, I think one, I think I managed to learn the ability to really sell the vision of Gymshark.

Steven Bartlett 9:56 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 9:56 But secondly, I think the, the single thing was just asking questions, like I would always just ask questions of anyone, whether they're in the gym... And I know there's people, right, that are in the gym that I've asked questions to that have probably rolled their eyes and thought, "Oh, God, here he is again. Like, I just wanna get on with my workout." But I was, I was that person just asking questions.

Steven Bartlett 10:13 I think that's really unappreciated about you. It's 'cause-

Ben Francis 10:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:16 ... 'cause when I was looking through... uh, as I sa- as I was saying, like when I was doing the research on your s- trying to find these threads throughout your story, this one thread kept coming up t- in my mind which was like, Ben r- is really like an insatiable learner.

Ben Francis 10:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:28 He's always trying to learn.

Ben Francis 10:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:29 Even in that, uh, uh, you did the conversation with, uh, Jake Humphreys on, uh, high performance, and at the end of it when he asks you, you know, about the, the worst things about your role-

Ben Francis 10:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:38 ... you basically flip it and say, "I'm like the luckiest person on Earth because I get to learn-"

Ben Francis 10:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:42 "... from the best people in the world."

Ben Francis 10:43 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:44 A lot of people, like if we think about the impact that being an like a really keen learner has on someone over 10 years-

Ben Francis 10:51 Oh, it's huge.

Steven Bartlett 10:51 ... it's just such a, like an unfair advantage. If you're... And then I, I reflect on the (clicks tongue) uh, World of Warcraft thing-

Ben Francis 10:57 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 10:57 ... as well, and I- I'm like connecting these dots. I'm like-

Ben Francis 10:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:59 A lot of people don't get obsessive about World of Warcraft where you're building-

Ben Francis 11:03 No, I love to, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:03 ... and you're learning and you're competing. Tell me about this World of Warcraft thing because only through a couple of lines.

Ben Francis 11:08 Because I don't even, I don't even know how old I was then. I was at school. I just, listen, I just loved it. I thought it was great. I loved... So the three games I loved, I loved World of Warcraft, I loved Call of Duty: Modern Warfare-

Steven Bartlett 11:16 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 11:16 ... and, um, Gears of War, and those are like the games.

Steven Bartlett 11:19 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 11:19 World of Warcraft was the one that I think I played for the longest period, and the thing I loved about it was, it was open world for one. It had like its own economy in it-

Steven Bartlett 11:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Ben Francis 11:27 ... in it so you could like learn a trade and like, you know, do things, sell things on the auction house, but you were working with people from all... or you were, you were playing with people from all over the world. You had to learn sort of teamwork.

Steven Bartlett 11:37 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 11:37 The other thing that was cool about it was there wasn't really one... So you had like different, like classes of character, right?

Steven Bartlett 11:43 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 11:44 So one was like a, like a warlock and one was like a warrior. One was like strong and had loads of health and could protect, one would inflict loads of damage on the enemy. The thing there was with teams was there wasn't one person or one individual that could do everything. There was... It was the group that could do everything, but you needed like all these different like-

Steven Bartlett 12:02 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 12:03 ... facets. It's like the Avengers, right? The Avengers assemble into this great group, but individually they're not as strong.And again, all these lessons I think definitely helped because even when we talk about today, Gymshark sort of leadership team, that's the exact analogy we use, Avengers Assemble. Like I don't- I don't want a, you know, a chief of product who is the most wildly intelligent financier or whatever or commercial person but knows brand. Like it's useful that they have an understanding and respect of those things, but we want a chief of product who's really good at chief of product, right?

Steven Bartlett 12:36 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 12:36 And then, uh, we want a chief of brand who's really good at brand, and a chief of finance who's incredibly good at finance, and then all those people come together to create a team.

Steven Bartlett 12:44 Do you notice that w- like at the start of the company, like you're talking about r- the requirement of specialists there.

Ben Francis 12:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:50 At the start of the company, was that the-

Ben Francis 12:53 It's very different at the start, no.

Steven Bartlett 12:54 Right.

Ben Francis 12:54 So at the start, if we go right back to the start, it is literally a case of we need a group of ambitious individuals that truly believe in the vision and will essentially do what it takes to achieve that. And there are so many corners that are cut along the way because you just have to do what you can to sort of get by. And I think the other thing as well is in the early days, more often than not, especially if you're sort of, they call it bootstrapping, isn't it, when-

Steven Bartlett 13:21 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 13:21 ... you're not sort of borrowing money as such. You ju- you need to find a way around it. Like if you have 50 quid to do advertising, you work out how to advertise with 50 quid. There's no like, "Oh, nevermind, let's go home." You just- you have to have great problem-solvers in the business at that stage. Um, and to be honest, the- one of the things that for- as- as we move through the sort of nine-year history of Gymshark, one of the things that I'm- um, what I'm proud of myself for doing is being able to adapt from that point of view. But some of the most difficult times have been that inevitably there are some people who can't maybe make that switch from what was to-

Steven Bartlett 13:59 Mmm.

Ben Francis 13:59 ... to the future. So that's an incredibly difficult thing to manage as well. And that's the sort of thing that, like, know what, you don't go to business school or whatever and ke- and get taught how to understand-

Steven Bartlett 14:11 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 14:11 ... where the level of an individual is or how to have a certain conversation or how to be self-aware enough to know what you sh- I should and shouldn't be doing-

Steven Bartlett 14:18 Yeah.

Ben Francis 14:18 ... or where my level is. So yeah, there's a hell of a lot of challenges along the way.

Steven Bartlett 14:23 I couldn't agree more. I- I always said, I've said this on this podcast before, but I ended up hiring like just really ambitious people that would like sleep on the floor with me that had no experience.

Ben Francis 14:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:31 And then obviously as the business scales and as you've acer- said there, like the- the challenges of a business become different and you really are looking for experienced specialists, especially to like lead the key departments.

Ben Francis 14:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:41 And, uh, I remember that challenge in like year three of- of now looking at the people that have been so loyal to me and thinking, "I don't know where you fit anymore."

Ben Francis 14:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:50 Because we n- you know?

Ben Francis 14:51 And it's heartbreaking, but that's where you need self-awareness in both camps where you can sort of have the conversation that says, "Like our relationship is our relationship, and I love you to bits. However, I need to take a step back and I need to build this business in a way that's best for everyone that is gonna help grow it."

Steven Bartlett 15:09 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 15:09 So yeah, those are the sorts of things that I think you can never truly be prepared for and it's always hard. Um, and yeah,

Ben Francis 15:16 it was difficult.

Steven Bartlett 15:17 I started Social Chain with a co-founder.

Ben Francis 15:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 15:20 You did too as well-

Ben Francis 15:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 15:20 ... from what I understand, Lewis.

Ben Francis 15:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:22 Um, there's very little written about why- why he's no longer with you.

Ben Francis 15:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 15:26 I'm guessing, I'm guessing from what I've read that there was just a- a difference in opinion about the future and you decided to go your- your separate ways?

Ben Francis 15:33 Yeah, and I think to be fair, I think Lewis was- Lewis was great, right? In the early days, we would l- we were literally inseparable. And I think there came a point where, you're right, I had my vision and I think he had his vision, and I just wanna be clear as like I don't think one is better than the other.

Steven Bartlett 15:49 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 15:49 It was just a difference of opinion. And to be fair to him, he had so many other interests in terms of investment and property and all these different things. So Lewis essentially left in, I'm gonna say 2014. I could be wrong.

Steven Bartlett 16:03 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 16:03 The bi- maybe 2015. The business was founded in 2012. I think he left the business in 2015. Um, and then he basically retained-

Steven Bartlett 16:10 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 16:11 ... 20% of his shareholding, and then in the deal that was last year, he then sold out the rest of that and now he's, uh, investing and doing other things.

Steven Bartlett 16:19 And were you friends before?

Ben Francis 16:20 We... Yeah, we were. Yeah. Well, so we met in that IT class that I spoke about.

Steven Bartlett 16:23 Oh, really?

Ben Francis 16:24 So we met in IT when we were 16, 17?

Steven Bartlett 16:27 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 16:27 Whenever the first year of sort of post-school is college, sixth- sixth form. We met then, and then we just went to the gym together.

Steven Bartlett 16:33 And then...

Ben Francis 16:34 And there- there was a group of like six, seven, eight of us that would all go to the gym sort of every day together.

Steven Bartlett 16:39 And had you decided who did what? So w- were you the CEO and he- or were you both CEOs or was it just-

Ben Francis 16:44 Um, no.

Steven Bartlett 16:44 ... what happened?

Ben Francis 16:45 That- that... So in the early days, that never really happened. It was just a bit like- it was a bit like, "Right, this- this is a list of things that we need to do. Let's just tackle them as we go." There was no organization in those days. And I think as the business then got more organized, that's when- I think that's when our visions started to maybe move in separate directions.

Steven Bartlett 17:05 Could that have been why then? Because there wasn't clear like structure at the start that-

Ben Francis 17:08 Could well have been to be fair, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:10 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 17:10 Because that's- that's what you need, right? You need clear roles and responsibilities. Um, and listen, regardless if you don't have that, it just- it just muddies the water, doesn't it?

Steven Bartlett 17:19 What do you think of- of having... the importance of having a co-founder and the role it plays in those early stages?

Ben Francis 17:24 Um, in the early stages, I think im- listen, it, I think it's important. I don't know the stats on how many businesses do, uh, founded by individuals and not... I know- I know when Lewis left in 2014, 2015, the- the- the six months after that was difficult. Not to be honest, not in terms of the fact that he wasn't doing X, Y, and Z, it was just more the fact that like it's just different, isn't it? And it's this whole new world.

Steven Bartlett 17:48 Psychologically, yeah.

Ben Francis 17:48 And it's a bit like, like I then natu- well, I- I then naturally sort of, I didn't lean into this as such until later on, sort of 2018-ish, I then very much became the face of the business in many ways and then it was like if people were wanting to talk- talk about the business or to the business, then they were coming to myself so... Um, yeah, I- I definitely noticed that and, um, listened and then I chose to obviously start pushing that on YouTube and stuff and then that happened more and more going forward.

Steven Bartlett 18:15 So talk to me about that. So first time we met, I- it was actually on a different series I was running at the time called, like, Everyday Entrepreneurs or something.

Ben Francis 18:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 18:21 And when I met you at Gymshark's office, I did notice that you were very nervous.

Ben Francis 18:25 So that-

Steven Bartlett 18:25 Very different from how you are today.

Ben Francis 18:26 ... that, that was about 2015, wasn't it?

Steven Bartlett 18:27 Yeah.

Ben Francis 18:27 That was in the early days. Yeah, so hopefully-

Steven Bartlett 18:29 Yeah.

Ben Francis 18:29 ... you can see the change that's happened in me from then to here.

Steven Bartlett 18:32 That's like 20 diff- yeah, 20 times different.

Ben Francis 18:33 And that, so that was the period, that was a period of great self-reflection for me, and that was when I was literally going, "Right, what am I bad at, what am I good at, and what's my choice?" So actually around that point, I'd split the two out, good, bad, and I decided to lean into my strengths. I did that for about three or four years, and then I was like, "Right, now I'm really comfortable with my strengths, I know what I'm good at, now I'm gonna lean into my weaknesses and I'm gonna become good at public speaking," I don't know, people management, all these other things. So the, yeah, when we met, I was definitely a lot more nervous. Um...

Steven Bartlett 19:06 I, I, it's so fun- 'cause I, I literally remember meeting you, and I obviously had this, this idea of meeting you, this young guy-

Ben Francis 19:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:12 ... who's made this killer business-

Ben Francis 19:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:13 ... whatever, whatever, whatever. I was, my anticipation was that you were gonna be, like, loud and, like, really whatever.

Ben Francis 19:18 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 19:18 And you were so quiet.

Ben Francis 19:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 19:20 And I could tell you were, you were nervous about the conversation. Um, and I would never have guessed that. You're totally different now.

Ben Francis 19:26 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:26 And which I think is incredible, because it's just like two com- for me, it's, like, very, very different people and it's a testament to your growth.

Ben Francis 19:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:32 But I was, I was really, really surprised, and I, I wanna share that because, um, it, I think there is, uh, a lot of people listening, young entrepreneurs or people that wanna, that think, you know, how you are now is how you will be and there's no-

Ben Francis 19:46 Oh, no.

Steven Bartlett 19:46 ... there's no development or...

Ben Francis 19:48 No, and this is the thing where I think what, what you need to do, again even more, I think, I think everyone should do this, whatever field of work they're in or whatever, but particularly as an entrepreneur, because I feel like as an entrepreneur, everything's just amplified, right? Your, your wins are bigger, your losses are, are larger again, um, your weaknesses are, you know, are exposed because you are exposed to the business and the world in many respects. But what you need to do is you need to write down, like, your character traits. The best example would be, and this is one that I'm currently working on, right, is people will be like, I don't know, "Oh, I'm messy," or, "I'm always li-" or, "I'm always late, I'm messy, what am I like?" And it's a, the conversation for me is a bit like, okay, you're messy and you're always late, but those things should be up for grabs, right? You should be able to look at those things and go, don't roll your eyes and say, "That's just me," 'cause it's not, or it doesn't have to be. 'Cause if I'd have done that in the early days, I'd have gone, "I'm introverted, shy, not good in front of cameras, terrible at public speaking, and I'm not good at people management," but I didn't want to identify with those things, I didn't wanna say, "Ben is that," because I didn't want to be that. And I think everyone, if you can somehow, and I, I don't, I think I was lucky because I was surrounded by great people, right? So it's definitely easier said than done, but if you can try and not identify with those things, those parts of yourself that aren't maybe ideal, um, and you can, again, look at them in a logical manner, as you would any other problem in life, and try and solve them, so I'm not good at people management, fine. Who's the best person I know that is? I'm gonna go and chat to them, I'm gonna pick their brains. Or, even better, I'm just gonna watch them. Because some people learn from just watching. Some people learn just by watching, and so Steve, for example, who's the, who was the CEO at Gymshark previously, we didn't have that many, "Steve, teach me how to people manage, Steve, teach me how to public speak." Like, we didn't really do that. But by him doing it, I just watched him, and I understood the traits or the things that he would do that helped him be great at that, and then I just basically learned them and tried them and tried them and tried them and eventually got reasonably good at doing those things.

Steven Bartlett 21:47 One of the things linked to that that I always say is, um, there's no self-devel- development without self-awareness.

Ben Francis 21:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:52 And like, I, I still to this day, I've spoken to a lot of people on this podcast, I have no idea how you make someone genuinely self-aware.

Ben Francis 21:59 No.

Steven Bartlett 21:59 And when I was, and when you're talking there about sitting down and writing a list of my goods and bads-

Ben Francis 22:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 22:04 ... how do we know that our own, like, delusion and a- ego isn't writing that list on our behalf?

Ben Francis 22:09 I mean, you could ask someone else to do it. The, the, the first really, the time it hit home for me, and it was like a ton of bricks on the top of my head, was I did a 360 feedback. So anyone that doesn't know-

Steven Bartlett 22:21 Ah.

Ben Francis 22:21 ... what a 360 feedback is, you, this, I could, I'm sure you can find it online if you Google it, but basically, you ask the people around you to describe you and it, like, prompts you as it goes. So Ben is, I don't know, X, Y, and Z. Those people fill it in anonymously, then it comes back to you and you have this, like, thick wad of paper that basically fully describes yourself. And I actually did this in, it was around when we met, so around 2015, and I had it, and I printed it off and I read it, and I was so upset and annoyed and I remember thinking, "This is not me," and I took it home that night-

Steven Bartlett 22:53 What did it say?

Ben Francis 22:53 ... and I... It was just, um, erratic, hot-headed, arrogant, um, poor manager, like all these things, like-

Steven Bartlett 23:01 From your employees?

Ben Francis 23:02 Yeah. And, and it's one of them, like, the, so the first thing, and completely natural, is, "Who said that?"

Steven Bartlett 23:07 (laughs)

Ben Francis 23:07 "I'm gonna find them," right? That's the first thing. Now fortunately, it's anonymous, you can't do that. And that would be terrible anyway. But then I read it, I took it home, um, left it on the side, and I think I'd, I don't know what I'd done, I'd gone to the gym or whatever else. Now my other half, who's now my wife, ended up reading it, and I'd come home and I'd seen her literally just finishing it on, like, the last couple of pages, and I was so angry, right? I literally grabbed it off her and I said-

Steven Bartlett 23:29 (laughs)

Ben Francis 23:29 ... "It's mine, don't read it. Like, it's not even me anyway, is it?" Blah blah blah, left her alone and we just carried on with our day. And then, like, later on, she was, I said, um, I said the same, I said, "That was, that was a load of rubbish, wasn't it? That's nothing like me." And then she said, she said, "That's the most you thing I have ever read." And then it was like, that was it. It was like, I, I didn't even say anything. I was just, I remember, like, everything came crashing down around me, because, because there was nowhere to hide. Like, she knows me more than anyone. And, like, I can kick and I can str- scream and I can say, "No, it's not true," but in my heart of hearts, I knew it was true, and that was the moment I realized I have to change, I have to improve, I have to develop, and, and if you're talking about becoming self-aware, I think that was my moment.

Steven Bartlett 24:15 So incredibly true how our partners know us. (laughs)

Ben Francis 24:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:18 And it's, and- and it- they- they can be the most hurtful, but agai- as you sa- c- completely accurately said there, like, if my girlfriend says something to me, I might on the surface be like, "Oh." (laughs)

Ben Francis 24:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:28 But then I get back to my room-

Ben Francis 24:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:29 ... and I'm like, "Oh my God," like- (laughs)

Ben Francis 24:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:31 ... uh, once your ego's had like a couple of seconds to chill. So, you get this list of feedback. I remember doing the 360 thing-

Ben Francis 24:36 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:36 ... with my team as well. Um, and I remember the same feeling, like, "Who the fuck said that?" (laughs)

Ben Francis 24:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:41 Like, and trying to work it out-

Ben Francis 24:43 True.

Steven Bartlett 24:43 ... and like looking over-

Ben Francis 24:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:44 ... like looking at everybody like, "I know it was you." (laughs)

Ben Francis 24:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:46 It's my assistant. Um, so you get that list of things back and you can see areas where you need to improve. And you agree. You say, "Okay, right-

Ben Francis 24:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:52 ... I'm gonna start listening." What happens, like how would you go about improving on those things? Because a lot of them are so like deeply ingrained in you from-

Ben Francis 24:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:58 ... decades of your childhood-

Ben Francis 25:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:00 ... or whatever. And- and especially when you're a winner. When you've been successful in one thing, it validates you. It almost appears to be like validation of everything.

Ben Francis 25:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:09 So h- what do you do then- what do you do next?

Ben Francis 25:11 Yeah, and that- you're right. That- so that's the dangerous thing, and I think that's why I was so fortunate because Gymshark, for the most part, not entirely, had been very successful until that point. So it was difficult for me to go, "Well wait a minute, I can't be that bad," right? But yeah, I think the- the thing with Robin where she literally put it on me, that- that was the moment. Um, so what I did then, and I was actually watching- it was a Gary V video that I was watching actually. So what I did was I had the weaknesses which were- were both self-defined but defined by other people. I also had my strengths, because by the way, that come- your strengths come back with the 360. No one reads them. You only look at the weaknesses, right?

Steven Bartlett 25:46 Yeah. (laughs)

Ben Francis 25:46 But there is a list of strengths in there somewhere. Um, and I realized that my strengths, particularly at the time, were around creativity, around product, around brand, around marketing, around understanding the industry, the customer, and- and so on. So I was, you know, I was mulling the idea, do I work on my weaknesses, do I focus on my strengths? And to be honest, I don't really know the answer to what the best way of doing this is, but I decided through, I think it was a Gary video, to focus on my strengths. And I said, "Right, do you know what I'm gonna do? I'm 20, whatever it is, 3, 24, I am purely gonna focus on my strengths now." And that's when I went into a brand role, a product role, a marketing role. Everything that was front end and creative at Gymshark, I completely leaned into. That was when Steve came into the business, Steve became the CEO, so I was sort of like the responsibility of maybe some of the weak- the areas I was weaker at, finance, ops management, that was then like moved away from me, and I purely, completely, and utterly focused on those things.

Steven Bartlett 26:43 And that was your decision?

Ben Francis 26:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:44 It's a pretty amazing decision.

Ben Francis 26:46 It was heartbreaking as well because the- again, it's one thing moving yourself out of a role. It's another thing moving someone then into that role who does it really good. Um, (laughs) and like I'm looking at them, I'm like, "You're way better than me." And I just have to like know that... And I- and to be honest, I think I used that as motivation to one day be as good as that. That was the- that was the inspiration. And I think maybe because I was young, I knew I had time, and I think that helped. Um, but it was heartbreaking because the other thing as well is, that doesn't mean to say exclusively everything Steve did, for example, I thought was right. It- it just, there were things that he did, well, I thought, "Maybe I wouldn't do that," or I would think differently, and sometimes he would be right and sometimes he would be wrong. But what I can't do, and this is the weird balance, right? 'Cause I'm founder and I am like a majority shareholder of the business, so ultimately I have control of the business, but there's no point in me putting him as CEO and then just overruling what he says. He's in as CEO 'cause he's the best person for the job and I have to trust his judgment and opinion. And- and it's that weird balance of that, and I never, and I never have to this day, played what we'd call like the shareholder card. I've never come in and gone, "This is the way it's gonna be just because." So yeah, then I- I was fortunate enough to watch Steve, learn from Steve, and- and that really helped. And- and this was the beginning, I think, of the period where I was sort of becoming a CEO because I- I started off as the chief of brand, right? So the business was smaller at this stage. I- I can't remember the- the exact size. We'll say 20, 30 million in revenue maybe. And I managed the creative, the imagery, the videography, the, um, athletes and sponsorships and all these different things, the events. And that was cool because I just- I got a real detailed understanding of all those things, like really detailed. I was in the nuts and bolts of everything. Um, funnily enough, it then happened again. A guy called Noel came in who was way better than me.

Steven Bartlett 28:38 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 28:38 Uh, and he came in as the chief of brand. So again, I'm sort of left a little bit high and dry. I was CEO, now I'm not, chief of brand, now I'm not. Um-

Steven Bartlett 28:46 You brought him in as well?

Ben Francis 28:47 Yeah, so he actually came in and reported into me, but it was clear within a, I don't know, a year or so that he was better. So I vacate the seat, he comes in, and he's done a great job since. Then I think after that I did, I think it was product for a little bit, which was great fun. Oh sorry, I did marketing which was great fun, and marketing is all... It's what it says on the tin, right? All the marketing-

Steven Bartlett 29:07 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 29:07 ... all the ads that you see online, everything that comes with that. And that was great fun and I learned a lot there. I traveled the world, I spent time with Facebooks, Googles, all the partners like that, and I learned a hell of a lot there.

Steven Bartlett 29:17 Did you feel a bit lost at this point?

Ben Francis 29:19 Um...

Steven Bartlett 29:19 Because- because h- having gone from CEO to brand to marketing, typically when an employee in my company does that-

Ben Francis 29:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:25 ... I- I tend to get the impression that they kind of know they're be- being moved around a little bit like a chess piece, and it's like they don't feel like they ever fully own something or that-

Ben Francis 29:33 Yeah, so I've had that. But I've had- I had that for five or six years because then- then it was- it was brand into market into product, there was tech for a little bit. Um, I've been- I've moved around a lot. So this- this CEO role is- it's the first genuine home I've found since sort of running the business back in 2013, 2014.

Steven Bartlett 29:53 And- and why- why- why did you... So you've recently announced that you're now the CEO, I think it's been roughly about four months-

Ben Francis 29:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:59 ... since you, uh, you kicked Steve out and-

Ben Francis 30:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 30:02 ... evaded h- (laughs) evaded the office-

Ben Francis 30:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:04 ... and slammed y- the shareholder card on his desk and told him to do one. I'm joking. Um, but you, what... Since- since you've r- sort of regained your position and made the decision with Steve-

Ben Francis 30:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 30:15 ... um, that you wanted to do the role again-

Ben Francis 30:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:17 ... what was the thinking behind that? Because a lot of founders, when they own the business, it's doing really well, it's flying, they know that they're, in terms of the financial ins-... incentives, they're gonna do just fine.

Ben Francis 30:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 30:27 And they can have a really easy life.

Ben Francis 30:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:28 And I've seen it happen. They just step back.

Ben Francis 30:30 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 30:31 They just tiptoe out the- the door and let other people do the- the hard graft.

Ben Francis 30:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:34 Why did you wanna step back into the hardest role of all?

Ben Francis 30:37 So first and foremost, I think, uh, like I said, I'd done all these roles, and I'd built up to a point where I, uh, sort of thought I might not be able to do it. And I think the fact that s- so Steve came to me two years prior to coming to the job, and he said, f- almost like, "I think you can do this." So that was a huge vote of confidence. 'Cause we'd- we'd had- th- this wasn't, like, an overnight thing, right? This was a two-year buildup, from the first conversation Steve had to me that's ... And his conversation was, "I think I've taken the business to a point where I can," which is- which was great, uh, that he would be so honest and open about that. And then, we had a two-year period of, okay, like, are we gonna bring someone in from the outside? Or Ben, are you gonna be able to do this role? And you know, again, similar to what I did in 2015 is, these are the things that I now need to do to be good enough at doing that role. Um, so there was a long almost warmup, handover, whatever you wanna-

Steven Bartlett 31:23 Right.

Ben Francis 31:23 ... call it, to that. Now, the other thing I would say is, the business today is a very different place to where it was. Like, I don't know what the numbers are, but prior to Steve, we were maybe 30- 30 employees. Now, we're 900. We were one office in the Midlands. Now, we're several offices around the world. So it's a very, very different place. But doing the chief of brand when the business was this big, and then product at this big, then marketing at this big, and tech, and so on, having the intricate understanding of those areas, not every area of the business-

Steven Bartlett 31:54 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 31:55 ... but, uh, many of the areas is- has really helped as well.

Steven Bartlett 31:57 One of the things you said is that your link to that is, "I'm scared of being someone that can only just start the business and not run it."

Ben Francis 32:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:03 What do you mean by that?

Ben Francis 32:05 I ... so I- I'm- listen, I'm- I'm so proud of the fact that I've founded, uh, Gymshark. I am ... It- it's- it's- it's so great. But I don't want- I don't want it to be a bit like, Ben founded the business, and that's all he did. Like, I wanna do way more than that. And for me, with my personality and the way I'm built, it's- I think it's a- it's a bi- it's a far bigger challenge for me to run Gymshark at the scale it is now as a chief exec than it is to start the business, right? Like, there are so many business tha- businesses that are started that die after year one, after year two, after year three, after year four and five. For me, I'm proud of the fact that I founded the business. I'm proud of the fact that I've worked in the chief roles. But to be in the front seat, in the CEO role at a business like Gymshark moving forward is, one, it's the most exciting thing in the world for me. It's the biggest challenge that I could possibly, like, go for. And, uh, for me, that's exciting. Like, I wanna aim high, both for the business, but also personally for myself as well. And like you said at the start, I love learning. That doesn't mean I sit there reading books 24/7, but I love learning and being amongst it, and there's no better role for that.

Steven Bartlett 33:16 But the apparent downside to that role is that you then ... the buck stops with you.

Ben Francis 33:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:21 Which means, when there's problems, when there's crises, they stop with you. And you could sail off into the distance. You'd get a really big boat with your-

Ben Francis 33:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:28 ... shareholding, uh, in- in the company, and you could just relax and just maybe, you know, chill out and maybe even invest in some stuff, and, you know-

Ben Francis 33:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:35 ... you and Robin could have a great life.

Ben Francis 33:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:37 Why not? 'Cause it's like you're choosing-

Ben Francis 33:40 Stress-

Steven Bartlett 33:41 ... stress.

Ben Francis 33:41 ... and long hours-

Steven Bartlett 33:42 Yeah.

Ben Francis 33:42 ... and busyness over ... Um, I think Robin probably asks me the same question regularly, if I'm honest. Um, I genuinely love it. I love the people that I work with. And you're right. There ... I- I do not have to do this job. There are- there is no two ways about it. I do it purely because I absolutely adore it, and I wanna challenge myself, and I wanna be the best version of myself possible. And I have genuine ambitions to be a great chief exec' to this business one day. I don't think I'm anywhere near there now. And it's a bit like, you know, someone has to be a great CEO in five, 10, 20 years' time. So, why not me? And I'm always ambitious on behalf of the business more than I am myself, right? So I'll- I'll always put the business first, because it is my baby, and I've been there from sewing the clothes in the early days, going to the first events, like, looking at having no money in the bank because of the risks that we'd taken. So the business, for me, always comes first, and the people within the business always come first. But personally, I'm also ambitious for myself as well.

Steven Bartlett 34:40 Who is, um, Hurricane Ben?

Ben Francis 34:42 Hurricane Ben, that would've been the- the Ben that would've been described prior to my 360 feedback.

Steven Bartlett 34:48 Right, right.

Ben Francis 34:48 So that, I'll give you an example, right? So there would be a particular product that I didn't like, and my opinion would be just direct, brutal, and probably not take into account other people's feelings or thoughts. And that's not to say that everything that you should do in business should always be, you know, stepping around people's feelings, 'cause I- I definitely don't think that's the way, but equally, like, don't be a dick.

Steven Bartlett 35:12 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 35:12 And there was definitely times in the early days-

Steven Bartlett 35:13 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 35:13 ... when I was a bit of a dick.

Steven Bartlett 35:15 And you ... And so what happens now in terms of how have you learned not to be a dick?

Ben Francis 35:19 Uh, learnt to give feedback-

Steven Bartlett 35:21 Like-

Ben Francis 35:21 ... examples with feedback, empathy, understanding why people do certain things, like understanding the fact that, like, you know, no one is perfect, certainly not me nor anyone.

Steven Bartlett 35:31 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 35:32 And no- pretty much never have I seen someone go out of their way to like, damage the brand. Like, people are doing things with good intentions. No one's designed a product in a particular way because they-

Steven Bartlett 35:45 Hm.

Ben Francis 35:45 ... you know, they want to see the brand negative- nega- negatively affected. No one's posted on social or done something in particular 'cause they wanna see the brand nega- negatively affected. It's- it's essentially a difference of opinion. So, I think, like, understanding that and being aware of it whilst I'm giving feedback, I think is important.

Steven Bartlett 36:00 What um- ... In your ... 'Cause I have this a lot as well. What are the- what some of the character traits you see in people that work with you-

Ben Francis 36:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:05 ... in- in your organization that you- you don't like? So if-

Ben Francis 36:08 Oh, don't like?

Steven Bartlett 36:09 Yeah, you don't like. So if you-

Ben Francis 36:10 Oh, God.

Steven Bartlett 36:10 'Cause- 'cause if- if I ask my team, if I said to them, "What are some of the things that Steve doesn't like?" from ... in terms of character perspective-

Ben Francis 36:16 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 36:17 ... uh, they would- they would know.

Ben Francis 36:18 Uh-

Steven Bartlett 36:18 I feel like they would know 'cause ... (laughs)

Ben Francis 36:21 And to be, uh, so to be fair, I don't get too much of this, but I just don't want people to agree with me because. Like, I want to be challenged all the time.

Steven Bartlett 36:27 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 36:27 Like, for me-... we want the best outcome.

Steven Bartlett 36:30 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 36:30 I don't care if it's my opinion or your opinion, I want the best outcome. And if my idea's crap, tell me. It's cool, it's fine.

Steven Bartlett 36:36 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 36:36 I will not take it personally. So I don't want people, I don't want like, you know, the whole thing of a, a yes man, yes person, whatever you wanna call it. I think... uh, it's not to say that I don't like it, but I know that individuals that really struggle with change don't tend to do well at companies like Gymshark. If you just want a nine to five that is gonna be consistent and stay the same, then it's definitely not the right place for you, because it's so rapidly changing, not only because of the business itself, but because of the world that we're in.

Steven Bartlett 37:03 Yeah.

Ben Francis 37:03 Like, 10 years ago, Facebook was only small. Snapchat didn't really exist. Instagram barely existed. Um, Shopify was very small. Like a lot the, the ecosystem of the world that we play in-

Steven Bartlett 37:15 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 37:15 ... was completely different. So change as well, I think is important.

Steven Bartlett 37:19 Yeah, I can comple- completely agree. And, and uh, I've, I've heard a few of, of your friends and people within your team describe you as being a bit of a perfectionist as well, in terms of having to hide-

Ben Francis 37:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:28 ... sort of a- a tension of detail.

Ben Francis 37:30 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:30 Is that... Do you, do you consider yourself to have, to be a perfectionist?

Ben Francis 37:35 I don't know. I don't think so. I definitely don't have a massive attention to detail. I've got the attention span of a gnat.

Steven Bartlett 37:42 Really?

Ben Francis 37:42 Um, I try... If, if it's something that's really, I don't know, something that just like aligns with me, then I'll, I can obsess over it for months on end. Um, if it's something I don't find particularly interesting, I have to use every ounce of strength of every cell in my body to remain focused on it-

Steven Bartlett 37:59 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 37:59 ... like I find that really difficult. I don't know if I'm a per- a perfectionist. I'm probably not the best person to comment on that. I wouldn't say so. I don't, I don't look like a perfectionist. I'm a bit scruffy and I, you know, I sort of-

Steven Bartlett 38:09 That's interesting.

Ben Francis 38:09 ... meander.

Steven Bartlett 38:10 It... For those that can't see Ben now, he's wearing his, um, it's all Gymshark, right? Other than the shoes.

Ben Francis 38:14 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 38:15 Right?

Ben Francis 38:15 Yep, exactly that.

Steven Bartlett 38:16 Um, and you wear this outfit a lot.

Ben Francis 38:18 Yeah, pretty much every day, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:19 You, you pretty much look the same every day.

Ben Francis 38:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:21 Why?

Ben Francis 38:22 Ease.

Steven Bartlett 38:22 'Cause-

Ben Francis 38:23 Speed. Efficiency.

Steven Bartlett 38:24 Yeah. M-

Ben Francis 38:24 Just simple. No messing around. I don't have to sit and think about, I don't know, "What am I gonna wear today?" Or, I don't know, anything like that. It's literally just a case of it's simple, comfortable, and I'm-

Steven Bartlett 38:33 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 38:33 ... I like

Ben Francis 38:34 it.

Steven Bartlett 38:34 One of the things you started recently as well is your vlog online.

Ben Francis 38:37 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 38:37 Um, and if we go back to when I, that day that I first met you, and I, I could s- tell that you, you know, you were nervous in that context-

Ben Francis 38:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:43 ... and the guy you are today. Two questions for you.

Ben Francis 38:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:46 Um, did you, did you do some sort of, um... Did you have professional support in developing your ability to speak so fluently and, and articulate your ideas so well? Um, and then we'll move onto chatting about-

Ben Francis 38:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:57 ... why you're doing the vlog.

Ben Francis 38:58 So I, so there's two things. So public speaking, one, in front of a camera, two, in front of an audience or whatever you want-

Steven Bartlett 39:05 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 39:05 ... to call it, to, uh, to a group, I found those as two very different things.

Steven Bartlett 39:11 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 39:11 And it's weird, right, because if I... So Steve would be great in front of an audience, but struggle in front of a camera.

Steven Bartlett 39:17 (laughs)

Ben Francis 39:17 I was fortunate, my other half, Robin, was a YouTuber, so she's brilliant in front of a camera, and she taught me how to work in front of a camera basically. Not through, (laughs) uh, I don't know, I don't know, it was just through brute just keep going, keep going, stick a fr- camera in front of me. In the first vlog, she recorded and edited the whole thing. Um, so she taught me how to sort of work in front of a camera. I did have public speaking lessons, uh, and that was massively life-changing for me. And the, um, going back to that list of, of things, by the way, when I s- I said about these are the things I'm good at, these are the things that I'm bad at, one of those things was public speaking. Um, and this is why I'm, I'm such a massive advocate of making a list, right, because public speaking was one of the many things on my list which was a weakness. But I didn't then immediately go and draw out a plan. I just had that list, and I said, I know... I think I had it as my wallpaper on my phone. Public speaking is something I'm bad at. And then I was at an event or something, I can't remember what it was. It w- I think there was an event at Gymshark. And I'm chatting away to people, chatting away, chatting away, and said, "Hello, I'm Ben. How are you? Have a great day. You know, what do you do?" A- and someone said, "Oh, I'm a public speaking coach." And then all of a sudden I've gone boom, light bulb. "I'm terrible at public speaking, you're a public speaking coach." And I was like, "Can you teach me?"

Steven Bartlett 40:26 (laughs)

Ben Francis 40:26 And, and that's literally how it happened. But if I hadn't have sat there, done that work, and written it down, it probably would have gone, gone on, right? I probably would have said, "Oh, okay, enjoy your day. I'll see you soon. It was lovely to meet you." And then, uh, I had public speaking lessons. I did s- I did actually, um... Shopify actually put me on a public speaking sort of camera, uh, thing, which was cool. Then I did some here back in the UK and just slowly worked at it. And, and then the thing that really helped me was just, uh, and I wouldn't probably do this now due to time, but it was just saying yes to things, just saying, "Yep, I'm gonna do it. And you know what? I'm gonna make a fool of myself." I'm sure there's some footage somewhere of me sweating and shuffling around a stage somewhere, like-

Steven Bartlett 41:05 (laughs)

Ben Francis 41:05 ... falling over my words and being terrible at it. But, you know, that's just a necessary evil to get g- get good at anything really.

Steven Bartlett 41:12 What did the, the public speaking lessons, was there like key principles or key exercises-

Ben Francis 41:16 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:16 ... that, that you, you felt actually moved the needle for you? Was there anything there that maybe someone listening to this that's a really bad speaker might, might be able to steal?

Ben Francis 41:25 There's a, um, there's a few bits. So there's one that, that, that they told me, and there's a, there's a quote I've seen online. I think it's a Winston Churchill quote. Whether or not it's true.

Steven Bartlett 41:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Francis 41:33 You know, you steal these quotes, and whether or not they're true or not.

Steven Bartlett 41:34 Yeah.

Ben Francis 41:35 There's one where he, it says, um, "I'm just preparing my impromptu remarks," which is like, obviously impromptu remark is a quick-

Steven Bartlett 41:42 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 41:42 ... sort of like thing that you sort of made up on the spot. And that really stuck with me, because then, uh, and I know a lot of other people do this as well, is when we're talking about a particular subject... Now I'm fortunate now, 'cause I've, I've done so much of this, I've got like all these different sentences and phrases and things that I can draw on. But in the early days, it's like, "So Ben, you're gonna talk about... You're gonna publicly talk about the Gymshark story." Now historically, even though I knew the Gymshark story inside out 'cause I was there, um, I'd struggle with that. So what I'd do is I'd prepare phrases, sentences, words, reminders in my head. So if someone said, I don't know, "Talk to me about the first event," it would just sort of roll off the tongue. And granted, I probably wouldn't do that any- anymore-

Steven Bartlett 42:19 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 42:19 ... but in the early days, that got me over that hump of that nervousness, that frog in my throat, "I don't know where to start."

Steven Bartlett 42:25 Hmm.

Ben Francis 42:25 'Cause that's the main thing is once you've started, it's fine, right? It just goes. But even just having that first sentence of, "Oh, the first event was Bodypower-

Steven Bartlett 42:31 Hmm.

Ben Francis 42:31 ... and we did this and this and this," and then it ... Yeah, that- that really helped me.

Steven Bartlett 42:35 That's so funny because that's exactly what happens from practice, isn't it?

Ben Francis 42:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:38 You'll know that now-

Ben Francis 42:38 You just go back to it, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:39 Exactly. I, you know, when I ... I do a lot of interviewing, interviews and stuff too, and there's like keywords trigger a story.

Ben Francis 42:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:45 So if you said to me, um, "Rejection," I'd be like, (snaps fingers) "Oh."

Ben Francis 42:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:50 You know, and then it just the same old ... And that, and that's so funny because that's ultimately what you're saying your-

Ben Francis 42:54 Yeah, and-

Steven Bartlett 42:54 ... coaching taught you.

Ben Francis 42:55 So if, yeah, so first and foremost, prepare impromptu remarks, whatever you wanna call it. Prepare stories, prepare things, like make sure you're well-prepared. And generally you wanna, if you're not very good at it, like for me, I had to over-prepare. I had to prepare, you know, this many things for a conversation that was this long. Um, and then the aim of that is to become comfortable. That's the main thing.

Steven Bartlett 43:16 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 43:16 And that was really, that was the biggest difficulty for me, become comfortable. So now I'm super fortunate. You could put me on a stage in front of 1,000 people and I would, I mean, it'd be a bit peculiar if I wasn't prepared, but I'd, you know, I'd be fine and I'd be comfortable. Because then once you're comfortable, what you do is you buy yourself time. So then if we're on stage and you ask me a question, five years ago I'd probably like panic and an- answer as quickly as I can with whatever. Whereas now, I'm gonna process it, think about it, and then come back with a response-

Steven Bartlett 43:42 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 43:42 ... because I'm comfortable. And like I think there's stages to all different types of learning, and, and that was it for me. One, preparation. Once I'd done that, I'd learnt to be comfortable, and then I learned about, you know-

Steven Bartlett 43:53 Hmm.

Ben Francis 43:53 ... different things as I go on.

Steven Bartlett 43:54 And, you know, th- so this has led you to now ... 'Cause do you know what? Your act ... I watched your videos back then-

Ben Francis 43:59 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:00 And maybe this is why I was surprised when I met you, because your v- on your videos, I genuinely thought-

Ben Francis 44:04 It was-

Steven Bartlett 44:05 ... you were a- amazing.

Ben Francis 44:05 Take, take 10,323.

Steven Bartlett 44:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That feeling. (laughs)

Ben Francis 44:09 That's why, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:09 I watched your videos on YouTube, I was like, "This guy's an unbelievable speaker."

Ben Francis 44:11 Oh, no.

Steven Bartlett 44:12 And then I met you in person, and, and it wasn't that you were a bad speaker.

Ben Francis 44:13 You're like, he's a shuffly mess.

Steven Bartlett 44:15 No, y- it was ... So the crazy thing is you weren't a bad speaker-

Ben Francis 44:18 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:18 ... and your stories were amazing, but it was-

Ben Francis 44:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:19 I could just tell you were nervous.

Ben Francis 44:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:21 And that w- and that's what you were speaking to there about being comfortable.

Ben Francis 44:23 Yeah. Some people are just naturally comfortable, and that's, and that's cool. And I think that, but that's the main thing, 'cause ... And I do think for whatever reason, I think it's probably maybe we're not taught it, maybe it just doesn't feel natural. If you can ... And by the way, if you can speak publicly, if you can speak to camera and if you can speak to groups, that is so powerful. So powerful it's untrue.

Steven Bartlett 44:44 Why should you drink Huel? We're going into the fourth quarter of the year. Diets are dropping off. We're becoming lazier and lazier, and what tends to happen when w- when our diets dip and we, we start to become less, um, compelled to go to the gym is, yeah, we get out of shape, we start to feel low energy, we start to binge eat bad things, and Huel is the antidote. It's nutritionally complete, so you get everything you need for your diet in a drink. You get your 20 grams of proteins. You're gonna get your 26 vitamins and, vitamins and minerals. It's low sugar, high in fiber. It really is the cure to a lot of the health issues that we see in our personal lives, but in wider s- society. If you've never tried it, all I'll ask you to do is give it a try. And if you're like me, then you will like the Wild Berry ready to drink. You'll like the mac and cheese, which is just selling like absolutely cr- crazy, unsurprisingly. Um, you'll like the cinnamon, and you'll like the banana flavor. Those are my recommendations. I know a lot of people love the chocolate flavor. Let me know. Try it, get yourself healthy, and send me a message on Instagram. Tag me on Instagram as well on your stories if you do dr- try it out, 'cause I, I sometimes upload those tags, and let me know which is your favorite flavor. Can't wait to hear from you.

Steven Bartlett 45:57 You now run what was voted I think 2016, 2017, one of the fastest growing company in this country.

Ben Francis 46:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 46:04 It's still one of the fastest growing companies in this country. It's worth billions and billions and billions.

Ben Francis 46:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 46:08 Um, and you've decided that you're going to vlog inside the company.

Ben Francis 46:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:12 This is not what CEOs do, Ben.

Ben Francis 46:14 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 46:14 They don't, you don't see them. You never get to ... You know, like think about all the big companies, it's very controlled PR.

Ben Francis 46:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:21 Why, why do you think that matters?

Ben Francis 46:23 Because if we go back to me on the inside working with my granddad and being able to learn about those stories-

Steven Bartlett 46:33 Yeah.

Ben Francis 46:33 ... that, that e- eventually led to, in many ways, the Gymshark we see today, I think I would love to be able to provide that to other people around the world, particularly here. First and foremost, it can be done, right? So you can start a business in the UK, whatever, in, in, in this world, online, and it can become a unicorn in under 10 years. And if you don't want to, you don't have to go and borrow a load of money. You don't have to highly leverage yourself. If you're a problem solver, you're open-minded, and you're self-aware, it can be done. And I think one, that ... I think that's the first sort of like step for me.

Steven Bartlett 47:12 Let me come at that one then, 'cause I know, 'cause I've, I know what people are saying.

Ben Francis 47:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:15 They're saying, "Ben, no, that's, you know, it's all good, all well and good you saying that 'cause you've done it-

Ben Francis 47:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:20 ... but I can't, I can't do it. I'm, I don't know what you know, and I'm, uh, I don't, you know, I don't know anything about computers. And it's all well and good you saying that, but you were ..." A- and this is what people will say-

Ben Francis 47:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:31 ... 'cause they said it to me. "Well, you were lucky. You, you know, your timing and..."

Ben Francis 47:34 And, and by the way, I was incredibly lucky.

Steven Bartlett 47:35 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 47:36 Massively lucky. You're g- and that would be completely right.

Steven Bartlett 47:39 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 47:39 Um, and listen, I, I would completely understand that. But for the, for some that want to, then that to me is, it is a proof of when it can be done. Now, I am very well aware of the fact that I was very lucky, one, in the people I've met, two, in terms of timing. So fitness was on the up, right? In the early 2000s, all over the news was obesity rates are rising. So fitness was on the up because people were encouraging people into the gym and fitness. Um, direct to consumer came out of nowhere. People were more comfortable in the sort of 2010s than ever buying things online, right? In the early 2000s, people were, weren't that comfortable buying online from a company they had never heard of, let alone one from, right, another country abroad. But number three, we had social media.

Steven Bartlett 48:24 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 48:24 Those three forces converging at the point where Gymshark was founded-... is completely and utterly luck, and I, I do understand that. But I'm also aware of the fact that there's loads of those things happening elsewhere in the world right now that, you know, probably aren't being completely taken advantage of. So I am aware of the fact that it's luck, but, um, I also think as well, in me doing this, I'd like to think that regardless, even if you don't want to start your own business, which by the way is completely cool, like, and I'll probably say in many respects that's probably a good idea, 'cause it, it is very difficult to do this, um, I still think there's lessons that can be learned. And I, I love the thought of people being able to take something away from the Gymshark story and create something cool of their own.

Steven Bartlett 49:06 It also gives you this weird type of defense-

Ben Francis 49:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:09 ... because you can see that so many CEOs have been attacked because they are, in essence... Well, I think what we're talking about here is being like a G- a glass box CEO, or the old model of being like a black box CEO-

Ben Francis 49:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:20 ... where your image is painted on the outside by your marketing or PR people-

Ben Francis 49:23 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:23 ... and no one ever gets to really know you or see inside.

Ben Francis 49:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:25 You've taken this really glass box approach, where if someone writes something bad about you, Ben-

Ben Francis 49:30 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:30 ... I can, like... Well, I've seen 65 interviews of him, and I've seen-

Ben Francis 49:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:34 ... his vlog, so I have my own reference point to know that that's actually not him.

Ben Francis 49:37 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:37 And some CEOs out there, like Elon-

Ben Francis 49:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:39 ... and these really public ones have that. And then Zuckerberg hid in a cave for the last 10 years, and in 2019, he announced that he was finally gonna start doing interviews-

Ben Francis 49:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:48 ... because of how everyone just thought he was this emotionless robot-

Ben Francis 49:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:50 ... 'cause that's what the press said.

Ben Francis 49:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:52 Um, and it's... and it is this, this incredible defense mechanism that I don't think people really appreciate.

Ben Francis 49:57 Yeah, and I think... I can also empathize. I mean, listen, what Zuckerberg's done is, like, on a completely other world to what any, pretty much anyone else has done-

Steven Bartlett 50:06 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 50:06 ... certainly myself. Um, but in the early days of Gymshark, I didn't wanna be plastering myself on social media, by the way.

Steven Bartlett 50:12 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 50:13 I didn't wanna be on YouTube. I wanted to just knuckle down and focus on building the business, 'cause remember, I didn't know what it would be at that point. It was only when people started asking for that, that I then decided to do it. So I do also understand the idea of just knuckling down and focusing on what you're good at. But you're right, the problem that that comes with is, other people get to control the rhetoric, or the language, or the description of yourself.

Steven Bartlett 50:38 And we're seeing that-

Ben Francis 50:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:38 ... in the UK. A lot of big companies in the UK that are being attacked at the moment, you don't know whether the articles are true, because you don't know the person they're talking about.

Ben Francis 50:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:47 And, um, that's why I literally have, uh, a picture in my office over there of Elon smoking his, uh, a joint-

Ben Francis 50:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:52 ... on the Joe Rogan podcast, because for me, and this is gonna sound like fucking bonkers, like, that's the CEO I, I would wanna be-

Ben Francis 50:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:59 ... is where I cry on Joe Rogan's podcast sm-

Ben Francis 51:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:01 ... smoking a joint. And f- for everyone to know that that's how op- open I am, and-

Ben Francis 51:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:05 ... much of the

Steven Bartlett 51:06 reason why I started this. So the pandemic comes around.

Ben Francis 51:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:09 Um, talk me through how it was being a CEO throughout that, 'cause one of the really remarkable things is you didn't furlough anybody, you didn't-

Ben Francis 51:16 No, we didn't. So I wasn't CEO at the start of COVID. I came in in August.

Steven Bartlett 51:20 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 51:20 But the... So that was interesting. So we, we were lucky again, because we were completely set up for Zoom, everyone has laptops, we're, you know, we're a digital business. So working from home, thanks to our tech team and the in- and the investments they made, from a systems perspective, it wasn't, like, tough. I know there are other companies that not everyone had a laptop and so on-

Steven Bartlett 51:38 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 51:38 ... so that, I couldn't imagine where to start there. Um, and we had that moment where... So what, what we have is, because we have, we have an office in Hong Kong, we have offices in the UK, we have offices in the US, and we literally saw, 'cause COVID sort of came from the East to the West, didn't it?

Steven Bartlett 51:54 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 51:54 And we saw Hong Kong closed, right? Everyone went into lockdown. And there was this bit where, I know I was thinking, "Oh, it'll never happen here. Never happen here," until it did, right? And then, boom, lockdown, everyone working from home. And, um, I was in... What was I doing at that point? I think I was just finished opening marketing, and I think I was moving into product at that point. And th- the moment that caught me, which was within, like, 24 hours of being locked down, I was lucky, I have an office at home, I shut the door, I've got a desk, and I can just work through that, and when I'm finished, I can close the door at the end of the day. And I was chatting to someone, and they were like... They had a, they were s- in a studio apartment in Birmingham City Centre, and their partner was making their breakfast behind them, and they were sort of, like, like, balancing their laptop on the work surface. And it, it was all just... I remember chatting to her and thinking, "Okay, this is gonna be really just, really tough for some people from a professional perspective." And then I'm chatting to my mum, who worked at the QE in Birmingham City Centre, uh, Hospital in Selly Oak, she was telling me about what was going on there, and I was like... It was very, it... I became very aware very quickly that this was a, a big thing, or it was gonna be a big thing. Um, so yeah, managing through that was, was really, really, really tough. Um, listen, commercially, the business did okay. Like, people were shopping online, and it, you know, there were more people working out from home, they were cycling, they were running. That side of the business did well. But managing hundreds of staff around the world working from home-

Steven Bartlett 53:20 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 53:21 ... mental health, making sure that we're supporting them through complete uncertainty was definitely difficult.

Steven Bartlett 53:28 And what, where'd you land then? So having seen that member of your team on the ironing board in that studio apartment-

Ben Francis 53:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:33 ... where'd you land on this whole remote working debate that-

Ben Francis 53:35 Um...

Steven Bartlett 53:36 ... what is Gymshark? What's it a- what's your in Gymshark?

Ben Francis 53:38 So we, we... I mean, listen, there are people at Gymshark that work remotely, and it works for them, and that's fine. Personally, I'm a little bit old school, and I'm in the office pretty much every day, unless I'm, you know, out at meetings. I just love to be in the office. Um, that doesn't mean it's right or wrong. I'm sure I would probably do a, a day, maybe a month or a quarter working from home if I need to, like, work through things. Because when we did work from home, I found that I finally got to my to-do list-

Steven Bartlett 54:04 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 54:04 ... which was useful, um, and I'd never really got to that previously. Um, we're sort of open-minded. There are some people that remote work, it makes sense for them. Um, as long as it makes sense for the business as well as them, that's cool. Personally, I like to be in the office.

Steven Bartlett 54:16 You, you have this big amazing office-

Ben Francis 54:17 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:17 ... in, in the UK especially. I mean, you have a few, but the one in, uh, Birmingham? So, uh-

Ben Francis 54:22 Yeah. Solihull, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:22 Solihull is a tremendous new- like, newly built-

Ben Francis 54:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:25 ... campus almost-

Ben Francis 54:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:26 ... that you've built. Um-What role does that play? 'Cause I'm, I'm in the camp of, I love the office as well.

Ben Francis 54:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:33 And I think it's- I think it's more than just a place where you come to do your work. I think it's-

Ben Francis 54:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:36 ... community, I think it's culture, I think it's-

Ben Francis 54:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:38 It gives, especially younger generations who haven't figured out their lives yet-

Ben Francis 54:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:42 ... an opportunity to learn, meet people, get married, I don't know.

Ben Francis 54:45 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 54:46 Um, so, wha- what, like how do you see the- the office? And- and have you set parameters for your employees as to...

Ben Francis 54:52 We're working on it now. That's what we're trying to work through. Um, there are some people that are on remote contracts, so they choose to work remote. There are many, the mid- vast majority are on contracts which- which means they're based in HQ. Um, personally, you're right. The whole thing about, like I said earlier, being able to watch Steve, right, was massive for my development. So if I'm a youngster that's coming into work at Gymshark, I wanna be in the office here, I wanna learn and I wanna grow and I wanna be around people. 'Cause, and that's not to say you can't learn on Zoom. I think you can, and I think there's great utility for Zoom, and I think there's areas where it's really helpful and useful. But if I'm a young product designer, I wanna be around designers. I don't wanna be able to be inspired, I don't wanna have that conversation, I wanna be able to share ideas in the moment rather than having to jump on Slack, forward slash the Zoom, jump on a call and so on. Hopefully they're free. So yeah, for me, I, like I said, I like to be in the office. I think it's- it's a great place to learn. And- and the office for us, and which is why we're investing in this campus and this- this larger office is, it is- it's a hub of Gymshark. When you're there, you're in it, we- we work together, we eat together and refuel, many of us go and lift in the gym after together, and it builds that genuine community in the buil- in the, uh, in the business.

Steven Bartlett 56:02 One of the things you, you know, when- when I hear your story, um, no matter where I look, it- it- it does feel like you're just incredibly good at dealing with shit. Like, it- it- it appears on the surface like you're just incredibly good at dealing with the hard times, um, and it also kind of appears that other than the one moment you told me about where you had- the website went down and you had to...

Ben Francis 56:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 56:24 ... write out the apology notes and stuff.

Ben Francis 56:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:27 But there's really not been a lot of, like, chaos. And I'm like, how is that-

Ben Francis 56:32 Every- every day is chaos, that's why.

Steven Bartlett 56:33 Yeah. Tell me about that part of it.

Ben Francis 56:35 Oh, I d- oh, I don't know where to begin. Like, in terms of, like, starting the business, we, uh, there were several times we invested everything that we had on a particular event or a part- particular product line. Um, COVID was tough. It's like what, when the business grow- the business is growing at the rate that we're growing, even just making sure that we've got enough stock to fulfill the forecast for the following year is, it's tough to manage and work out. Moving from, you know, zero to 900 staff in nine years, that's so hard, and it's like everyday hard. Because in many respects, when a big problem comes in and it just hits you in, out of nowhere, you look at that problem and you try and solve it. Whereas people forget about the everyday nagging problems of making sure that, like, the majority of the people that currently exist in Gymshark weren't in Gymshark 12 months ago.

Steven Bartlett 57:25 Hmm.

Ben Francis 57:26 So, the majority of people in Gymshark maybe aren't as aware of the story or the way that the business works, or- or haven't been truly immersed in the culture, both because they haven't been here for a long time, but also because we have been wo- working remote for so long. So those problems, in terms of making sure that everyone is truly bought into the brand, are really important. Because when you've got a team that big, we wanna make sure that they're working efficiently as well.

Steven Bartlett 57:49 Steve said that, um, the former CEO said that pressure is a privilege-

Ben Francis 57:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:53 ... to you.

Ben Francis 57:54 So I think it's true. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:55 Do you think it's a privilege for- for you as- as Ben, or do you think it's a privilege for everybody? 'Cause-

Ben Francis 57:59 I think it de- depends on what the pressure is, right?

Steven Bartlett 58:01 Right.

Ben Francis 58:02 I'm sure there are people in this world that are under a lot of pressure that certainly doesn't feel like a privilege. But in the context of Gymshark, it- it is a privilege. Like, we all choose to be there. We're all a part of something really special.

Steven Bartlett 58:15 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 58:15 Something that I- I really believe this. I think, I do- I do think books will be written on this story, and I think maybe if we do what we think we can, maybe, like, there'll be programs and movies too, because it is so unique and so special. So within the context of Gymshark, I do think j- uh, pressure is well and truly a privilege for us.

Steven Bartlett 58:33 When I- when I reflect on, um, early days of starting my business, there was a lot of unknown unknowns, a lot of things that I wished someone had just told me sooner, or-

Ben Francis 58:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:39 ... a lesson that it took me three or four years to learn.

Ben Francis 58:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:41 It, when you look back at some of the things you wish you knew sooner, that would've maybe even put what is a phenomenal business even further ahead-

Ben Francis 58:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:50 ... if, w- what are those things that come to mind?

Ben Francis 58:51 Um, I'm interested in, interested to hear what you think. But-

Steven Bartlett 58:54 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 58:54 For- for me, given my skill set, we didn't invest in the foundations of the business early enough. I- I was, going back to being arrogant at the start, I- I didn't really respect what maybe the ops or finance people of this world did. I, the- the- the foundation elements of the business, to me, were nowhere near as exciting or fun as the front end element to the business, the product, the brand, and the marketing. So I think if we'd have better prepared ourselves for that, from a, like you said, data, ops, finance, all these things, I think Gymshark would've grown far quicker. And I mean, in terms of what, especially with what you guys did, particularly at SocialCa- Chain, you were ahead of your time in that-

Steven Bartlett 59:32 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 59:32 ... in terms of bringing all these pages and channels together and almost packaging-

Steven Bartlett 59:35 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 59:36 ... them up for different businesses and brands. So, you must have struggled with that as well.

Steven Bartlett 59:41 Oh, my God, my answer's the exact same as yours. It's just, I was exact- I was exactly the same guy. I thought that the thing that would move the needle most was what I did and what I knew.

Ben Francis 59:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:50 And then it wasn't until you hire one really great person, and you go, "Fucking hell, that's, that's what good look," and, th- look at-

Ben Francis 59:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:56 ... all the things I don't know.

Ben Francis 59:57 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:58 And I, it, I think it took me two, maybe three years to realize the importance of really great talent.

Ben Francis 1:00:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:04 And that my skills and my talents weren't actually gonna matter that much, especially at a 700, 800 people business.

Ben Francis 1:00:11 Yeah, the, um, that's the thing, great people are amazing. We did a trip, uh, to Fiji years and years ago, and it was the first time I got to spend time with Harley, uh, at Shopify, Harley Finkelstein, and, uh-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:24 Wow.

Ben Francis 1:00:24 ... Toby at Shopify.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:25 Wow.

Ben Francis 1:00:25 So, like, these are, like, some top, top entrepreneurs. And there was- there was a load of other people there. I remember sat, I didn't even barely say anything, I remember sat listening to them, and I was thinking to myself...... Gymshark's like a, all the people, or certainly even me, I felt like I was like a local football club player. These are like Premier League, international stars. They were like another level compared to what I was and, and we were in the business. So to be able to see, though, when you see a great operator, like look at Zuckerberg. People just look at Zuckerberg as like a guy or Elon or whatever. These people are gonna be so efficient and frighteningly intelligent and adaptable and resilient that you, without meeting them, I genuinely don't think you'd be able to fathom it. I obviously haven't met them, but I could- I- I- having met people like Harley and Toby, they were on another level to anyone that I'd met before. Um-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:18 So true.

Ben Francis 1:01:18 And they're like, they were just like us at one point, right? They've had to work. They weren't just born hyper-resilient, super intelligent-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:23 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 1:01:23 ... open-minded and blah, blah, blah, um, maybe a little bit in terms of intelligence, but a lot of the skills that we see from them, they had to learn and they had to work on. That was massively inspiring. So I, yeah, I think you're right. I can't stress enough how important it is to just try and surround yourself with great people. But I was, I was lucky, right? That trip, most people don't get to go on trips like that.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:44 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 1:01:44 They don't get to have their, their eyes opened. Um, but there's still, there's great people in every community, every gym, every whatever. You can, you can definitely find them.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:53 I completely agree. Again, I, I, um, I came to now learn in the businesses I start, and I say this to my teams all the time in Flights or in ThirdWeb that we are basically a recruitment company.

Ben Francis 1:02:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:02 Like never forget that.

Ben Francis 1:02:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:03 The most important thing here and the thing that is behind and initiates every decision is a person-

Ben Francis 1:02:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:09 ... a talent. Obviously, it's bound together with culture and a vision, but fundamentally, um, I- it was actually one day, I, I read on somewhere that the definition of a company on Google and in the Oxford Dictionary is actually group of people.

Ben Francis 1:02:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:22 Like that's what they say that is a company. Uh, uh, that's, it means a group of people.

Ben Francis 1:02:25 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:25 And I started thinking about that. In fact, it, like a football team, it's, we, we are a starting 11-

Ben Francis 1:02:29 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:30 ... and in competitive industries, and we're all in competitive industries, I start thinking about it like a football team. Like this is the guy I've got g- up in left back-

Ben Francis 1:02:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:38 ... or, or right wing-

Ben Francis 1:02:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:39 ... against my competitor's guy-

Ben Francis 1:02:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:42 ... or woman, and I started thinking, "Fucking hell, fundamentally, I just need to be the best talent," as Steve Jobs says, "the best talent scout in the world," and I wasn't-

Ben Francis 1:02:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:51 ... until this chapter of my life.

Ben Francis 1:02:54 Yeah, later on, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:55 Like it's too late. I was, I w- uh, I, yeah, until too late.

Ben Francis 1:02:58 And the, for me, I think like in terms of getting, so you can talk about getting great people, becoming self-aware, becoming the best version of y- yourself that you possibly can be, and even that, all of those things, if you do that incredibly well-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:11 Mm-hmm.

Ben Francis 1:03:11 ... that by no means guarantees success. All that does is increase the likelihood or the probability of success. Even then, you've got a fairly slim chance because, like I said, so many small businesses fail. And that's the other thing that I think anyone starting out or whatever, all working in a business needs to understand is that failure is inevitable. Don't be defined by your failures. It could be an operation in the business. It could be the business itself. It's inevitable that it's gonna happen. All you can do is do everything within your power to minimize the likelihood of that happening.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:42 Talking about doing that which is within your power, you've managed to seemingly avoid, um, the, the toll of business getting to you. My business partner has been very open on this podcast-

Ben Francis 1:03:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:51 ... about how the stress of business made him anxious and then he suffered with depression and then he became, in his own words, basically like a functional, functional alcoholic.

Ben Francis 1:04:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:00 Um, y- y- it doesn't seem to have touched you in the same wa- I mean, have you ever experienced anxiety or-

Ben Francis 1:04:06 Um, yeah, I've, uh, listen, I've definitely struggled. There were points where, again, when I was first sort of, I felt like I was first going out on my own, um, in 2015. There have been periods where, uh, you know, social media maybe has turned on the business and myself. Um, it's definitely been really difficult at times. There's been points where-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:28 Social media turned on the business and yourself?

Ben Francis 1:04:29 Uh, so we, there was a, there was something that happened last, I think it was last year or the year before, where someone at Gymshark on the channel, on the, on their social channel basically commented back to someone, um, I can't remember exactly what was said, but basically it was around a,