I Spent 12 Years In Jail For A Murder I Did Not Commit! Raphael Rowe

1. 0:00 – 2:02

   Intro

   1. RRRaphael Rowe0:00

      I was destined to spend the rest of my natural life in prison, for crimes I didn't commit. (dramatic music) Gonna talk to you about Raphael Rowe. Who's a presenter, journalist, documentarian. This is prison soil. You're going to hear a story. There's only a short period after my son was born, two months, in fact, my life changed forever. (screaming)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:21

      On 15th December 1988, a series of terrifying crimes took place along the newly built M25.

   3. RRRaphael Rowe0:29

      I was being accused of a murder and a series of aggravated robberies. They fabricated evidence and changed things to fit me into the crime.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:37

      Fucking hell.

   5. RRRaphael Rowe0:38

      They convicted us, and I was destined to spend the rest of my life in prison for the crimes I didn't commit. (door opening and slamming) When I was in the isolation cell, stripped naked, bleeding and bruised, I screamed and I shouted through the pain that I was suffering and nobody heard my voice. At that moment, something started to grow in me that made me become the person that I am today.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:59

      What is that thing that started to grow in you?

   7. RRRaphael Rowe1:02

      Hope. Free after more than a decade behind bars.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:06

      What is a mistake that you know you've made that you haven't yet fixed?

   9. RRRaphael Rowe1:10

      The consequences of my actions has meant that I've never been able to discover anything about my son.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:16

       If I put a button in front of you and said, "You press this button and it erases those 12 years..."

   11. RRRaphael Rowe1:21

       I'll never ever get those years back.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:24

       ... would you press the button? Before this episode begins, I just wanna say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers. 74% of you that watch this channel didn't subscribe before, and we're now down to about 71%. So, that helps us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain. But simply, the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests get. So if you haven't yet subscribed to The Diary of a CEO, if I could have any favors from you, if you've ever watched this show and enjoyed it, it's just to, to please hit the subscribe button. Hope you enjoy this episode. (upbeat music)

2. 2:02 – 9:52

   Early context

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:03

      Take me back. I am... If you've ever heard this podcast before, I'm a huge believer that in order to understand a person, you have to really understand their context, and their earliest context. You're from a council estate. Um, your home life, to me, from reading through your autobiography, seemed to be incredibly defining. So take me back to those earliest years and give me the context I need to understand the man that you were in your early 20s.

   2. RRRaphael Rowe2:30

      I'll go back even further and take you to the kind of, um, environment that I grew up in. So I grew up in southeast London, Camberwell to be precise, um, just at the bottom of Coldharbour Lane, which is the kinda junction between Brixton and Camberwell before you get to Peckham, so that kinda circle of, or that triangle, as I like to describe it, in, in southeast London. And it was quite a typical, um, working-class environment, council estate. A- and the privilege of it was that we were all the same. Nobody had anything. A- and the other thing about that council estate and the environment that I grew up in, and it was a bit of a, a, a, a kind of cul-de-sac, you know, in these kind of estates where you've got block after block. There were little roads in, little roads out onto this estate, and that little patch of grass in front of our blocks of flats. And it was quite diverse. Y- you know, I was from the mixed-race family. My mum's White, my dad's Black. You know, the floor below my flat, we had the Chinese family. Below that, we had the kind of overweight family, and opposite them, we had the smelly family. So there was this Scottish family over in the other block, and the Irish family, so it was a real mix of cultures and personalities and characters and parents. And I'm not gonna say there weren't, there weren't issues and problems. Of course there was, and you'd always have the shouting, but there... And I'm not gonna make it sound mythically like it was a great time, because it wasn't, but when you're a kid, you don't recognize the problems that your parents are facing, not being able to pay for the electricity, not being able to buy the things that kids want, new trainers and stuff like that. So it's quite stable but unstable at the same time, because there was also a lot of, um, crime, but not crime that was obvious to young guys like me and the girls. And, you know, having a camp in the bottom of a block of flats would be our highlight, you know. We'd go in there, put dead mattresses in there and bits of blankets. That was my kind of environment. So I kinda grew up in this council estate that was very diverse, had lots of different cultures, um, and it made me comfortable. My home life was slightly different. Y- you know, my dad is Jamaican. He was strict. He came from a very strict family back in Jamaica, so when he was in the UK, kind of brought that chip with him, didn't quite integrate into British society, was a laborer, had a strong Jamaican accent, still has a strong Jamaican accent, because he never kind of... never really kind of integrated himself. Now, whether that's because he couldn't, because he couldn't read and write, whether that's because he wasn't accepted because he was a Black man who came in on the Windrush, or whether it's because he didn't want to, I've never really found out, because I've never really had that conversation with my dad. So that's the context. That's what I was growing up, in a council estate, that was working class, and very poor.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett5:15

      If I was, if I was in the walls of your home at that time, what would have I, what would I felt, seen, experienced as it relates to the relationship you had with your, your parents? Was there affection? Was there, was there, um, was there love?

   4. RRRaphael Rowe5:32

      I think there was love, but it wasn't open love, as in no cuddles, I love you kind of conversations. Nothing like that took place. My mum oozed care and consideration and, um, and love towards me and my three sisters. My dad was very strict. He was also a drinker. I wouldn't say he was an alcoholic, but he liked to consume alcohol, and that made him aggressive, and so in my household, occasionally, my dad could be, uh, physically abusive towards me and my sis- sisters as well as my, my mother.... to the point where sometimes it got so extreme that we felt we had to flee the home. So it could be quite brutal and he'd take it out on us. So it was a challenging household. That wasn't all the time, y- you know, my dad could also be a joy, you know, he could be the life of the party. If there was music playing and he was slamming dominoes and he had friends round, we'd love it because we were being exposed to this adult world that seemed exciting and welcoming, um, and very different because there was a mix between the Black culture and the white culture. And for me, despite the negatives in those walls that you talk about, there was also a lot of positives. I think my dad's discipline was born out of the idea that he thought that was the way to get us to do the things we needed to do to improve our lives. He had no ambitions, he had no aspirations or anything like that and he didn't give us any of those ambitions or aspirations, but I'm sure that he wanted me and my sisters to do better than he did.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett7:11

      I hear that. Um, this conversation, I've thought, you know, a lot about my own mother who was extremely, um, she's from Nigeria, my dad's English. Um, sh- her approach towards disciplining kids is v- very, uh, would be frowned upon, I guess, is a way of saying it. Um, you know, I got it all, um, (laughs) some things I've actually never said, but, "I got it all." And, uh, you know, as, as I've grown up I've wondered, was that, you know, great parenting? Was it intentional? Was it, you know... Or was it just, like, a lack of control?

   6. RRRaphael Rowe7:44

      I think it's a lack of education. I, I, as a, as an adult, Steve, I, I made a, a beeline to Jamaica with my dad. I needed to understand why he was the man that he was, somebody that had never given me a hug, never given me a kiss. During my time in prison, I witnessed things with other families, um, white families in particular, where they'd come up to visit their son and at the end of the visit they'd hug each other, they'd kiss each other, and they'd walk off with that visit. And that inmate who I observed getting that affection was in a good mood. I never got any of that. I would from my mum but never from my dad. My dad had a beard. And I remember on one visit, on one occasion, sort of reaching out for him in the way that I saw other people do because I'd never experienced that, to give him a kiss, and it was a kind of really awkward moment. Not only was his beard itchy and difficult, but I know that he wanted it but didn't want it. So when I went to Jamaica, I went there to see what his life was like and I learned so much about why he was the man that he was in the house that I grew up in, um, and it taught me a lot of lessons about why my dad was the way that he, he was.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett8:52

      I can, I can s- in some respects understand that as it relates to you guys.

   8. RRRaphael Rowe8:56

      Mm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett8:56

      You know, maybe he had learnt the wrong way to, to, to get kids to behave in, you know, a difficult environment and a difficult area. I think, uh, sometimes p- parents, wrongly in my opinion, but they think that a, a more harsh approach is the right one. But then as it relates to your mother, being violent towards your mother, that to me seems a little bit more difficult to understand f- using the same explanation that it's a mechanism to help kids.

   10. RRRaphael Rowe9:22

       I don't think in my household it was anything to do with helping the kids. I think it was something he witnessed in his own household-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett9:29

       I see.

   12. RRRaphael Rowe9:29

       ... as he was growing up. I know from what I heard when I went to Jamaica that my dad's dad was violent, that he was abusive towards my dad and his siblings, and no doubt to my dad's mother who died when my dad was very young. Um, so I think it comes from a place where he witnessed that and it was the norm to him and he brought that into his own life and couldn't control it.

3. 9:52 – 17:56

   Getting kicked out of school

   1. RRRaphael Rowe9:52

   2. SBSteven Bartlett9:52

      You were kicked out of school, secondary school?

   3. RRRaphael Rowe9:54

      In my first year at my secondary school, an incident happened with a teacher where she called me a thing, y- you know, "You thing," you know, "You shouldn't be here," kind of thing, and I went home crying and I remember my mum going to the school, having an altercation with the teacher and slapping the teacher. And as a result of my mum being protective, now, to other people that may seem like she's assaulted a teacher but the teacher insulted me first, verbally not physically, but verbally, so my mum being the protective mother that she was came to the school and slapped the teacher in her face for calling her son a thing. And I got expelled. So the consequences were I got expelled and went to another school which is now The Charter School in Redpost Hill in Dulwich but it was then called William Penn, an all-boys school. Um, and, and I survived (laughs) that school for just a few years before, you know, my problems surfaced more and more and I was expelled from that school.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett10:49

      What were your problems that surfaced?

   5. RRRaphael Rowe10:52

      I think I just couldn't settle. I, I, I think it was, you know, I, I wanted more than what the school were offering me. I don't think the schools in those days could identify what, what kids like me who grew up on council estates needed. Education was one thing but we needed more. I had, as I've said, uh, uh, you know, a troubled home life. N- not so much that the, the schools needed to intervene, I wouldn't argue it was anywhere near as bad as that as it is in some kids' lives today and in the past, but, but I needed more support and I don't think I got any of that from my schooling. And that just allowed me to do the things that I shouldn't be doing which is bunking off of school, not going to my lessons, getting into fights, hanging out with the wrong kids. And those wrong kids would probably be, say, hanging out with me, you know, so it's kind of vice versa. But I think it was just doing the mundane things that kids who are not enjoying school, not taking in the lessons that they're being learnt, you know, end up being kicked out of school. So I was kicked out of my second secondary school at the age of 15, 16, and they put me in what they call an intermediate school which is basically a kind of building where they put all kids that they deem to be, um, y- you know, irresponsible or, or not responsive to the education system, but what you're actually doing is just putting a bunch of kids who are already struggling in life and trying to discover who they are or deal with their, their problems in one environment and you just breed even more problems.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett12:26

      And how did that manifest itself for you?

   7. RRRaphael Rowe12:29

      I think I started to get in trouble with the law. I started to commit petty crimes: shoplifting, breaking into cars, burglary. Um, some people might think that burglary is more serious than what it was, but when you're a 16, 17-year-old, um, you know, it was just a means to an end. So that's how it manifested itself. I started to get into trouble with the law. I remember the first time a police officer brought me home after I got caught nicking Curly Wurly chocolate bars from the Co-op around the-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett13:01

      (laughs)

   9. RRRaphael Rowe13:01

      (laughs) ... around the corner from my house. And it wasn't that I needed the Curly Wurlies 'cause I already had a drawer full of chocolate that I'd pinched earlier.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett13:07

       (laughs)

   11. RRRaphael Rowe13:08

       But it was more about, I don't know, you know, coming home from school, going in the shop, knowing that I could do it and get away with it w- was the driver. I didn't need the chocolate. But I got caught, and I remember a police officer bringing me home, um, and I remember standing in the front room with my dad who was fuming, and I knew I was gonna get a beating for what I did because that was his reaction to my behavior. Um, and the police officer, I think, was sympathetic in sorta saying, you know, "This is not a serious offense, but it is the beginning of something that could become serious." And he was right because I continued to get into trouble with the law, doing nothing more serious than what I just mentioned, burglaries, um, shoplifting in particular, um, for clothes and things that I wanted that I didn't have, the material things that we didn't have around us in those council estates that were becoming more and more, um, advertised, you know, advertisements, you know, dairy... Maybe I was nicking a chocolate bar because they had at the time the Dairy Milk chocolate ad where the guy-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett14:09

       (laughs)

   13. RRRaphael Rowe14:09

       ... slides through the window and gives his lover a bar of chocolate, and that was my temptation. Um, so that's how it manifested itself, mixing with people who were already going down the wrong path, getting together and doing that wrong path together.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett14:23

       At 17 you, you get arrested for that? For burglary?

   15. RRRaphael Rowe14:27

       I got, I got arrested for burglary when I was 17, um, and I went to court. I got arrested when I was, I think, 18, maybe 17, 18 for assault. I, I had a, an altercation with a, a mechanic who attacked me with a spanner because I was giving it the big I am, but he was a man, I was a boy, and he attacked me, but I managed to wrestle the spanner from him and hit him with the spanner. That's why I was done for grievous bodily harm, um, and went to court, um, and got a, a prison sentence which was o- or a young offenders sentence which was overturned, um, so I spent just a few days in, in custody but then was out on probation. That was about as serious as it got.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett15:09

       And then knives show up in your story a few times. Um, you stabbed someone in the bum that was on top of you-

   17. RRRaphael Rowe15:16

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett15:16

       ... punching you.

   19. RRRaphael Rowe15:17

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett15:18

       And then you got stabbed yourself.

   21. RRRaphael Rowe15:20

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett15:21

       18 years old.

   23. RRRaphael Rowe15:24

       I lived in a world at that point, and kids live in that world today, where carrying a knife was normalized. It was an extra, an extension of who you are, an extension of your personality, an extension of your character. But most importantly, I think it was something that we did, and that's me and my friendship group and even the enemy friendship group, if you like, where they were trying to show authority. This is something you fear. You don't just fear the person but you fear the fact that that person may be carrying a knife and may be willing to use the knife. And I did, I used a knife. I, I remember being conscious of the fact that using a knife could cause serious harm. That didn't stop me, but it did make me realize that by using that knife I could harm someone really seriously, hence the reason I stabbed this individual in the buttocks, the bum, rather than anywhere else. Um, but that full circle came around and I was attacked and had-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett16:34

       By the same people?

   25. RRRaphael Rowe16:35

       Not by the same people, no. Um, you know, I moved around in a group of guys and there were lots of different groups of guys in lots of different areas, um, and we were quite... We had quite a reputation at 17, 18. My best friend was a known fighter, he could look after himself, um, and I was a bit of a follower at this age. I was a bit of a follower. Um, and he had such a freedom in his life. He grew up in the care homes. His dad came to England with my dad, so I knew him from when he was very young. And growing up in the care home system, he was... He, he just had this sense of freedom that I wanted, and I wanted it because, as I say, my dad was quite a, you know, disciplined guy, and so if I wanted to go out he didn't want me to go out. Now, whether that was because he wanted to be mean to me or whether it was because he was trying to protect me from what I wanted to go and do, which is to go and hang out with guys who had no life really but just hanging out smoking weed and chatting up girls, that's what our life evolved around. But in that environment, there were men, young boys, who wanted to challenge us or we wanted to challenge them, and so inevitably it kind of leads to you carrying a knife and, in my case, using a knife and having a knife used against me.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett17:55

       And

4. 17:56 – 19:37

   Getting kidnapped

   1. SBSteven Bartlett17:56

      from what I read, I believe in your autobiography, they kidnapped you one day-

   2. RRRaphael Rowe18:01

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett18:01

      ... and took you to a park, beat you up, et cetera.

   4. RRRaphael Rowe18:04

      The, the boy who I stabbed in the bum, he had a older brother who was quite a known criminal in the area, in Peckham, in South East London, and he and his friends, who were older than me and my group of friends, came to my flat, kicked off the door, um, and took me in a car.... to a park. I was bundled in the back of the car, I was taken to a park, I was stripped naked, I was beaten black and blue. I thought I was gonna die, I thought that was kind of, uh, y- you know, what was gonna happen to me. I thought I was gonna die when these guys, these big guys were kinda threatening me in the car, what they were gonna do to me. They stripped me naked and they beat me black and blue, and then they left me in this park. Now, it was in Peckham but I didn't know where it was 'cause I was in the back of the car, couldn't see where I was going. Ended up stopping, being dragged into this park, stripped naked and beaten. And this is the violent environment that I was now involved in, caught up in. But I will say this. Even though that world may sound to people like a really violent and disturbed world, that's not who I was. I was caught up in it and I was involved in it, but I know I wasn't that person because it's not the person my parents were bringing up. My sisters y- y- you know, are law-abiding citizens. I was the black sheep of the family, I was doing things because other people were doing things, and I was with those other people.

5. 19:37 – 25:35

   Trying to fit into an environment

   1. RRRaphael Rowe19:37

      That's not me, Steve, blaming other people for what I did and the involvement that I got in, that was free will. But it just wasn't who I was. I just didn't recognize it at the time.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett19:49

      I can completely relate to that. I think, um, growing up around certain, uh, environments where people are shoplifting, breaking into things, you know, in the environment that I was in, in, in Plymouth, you know, the... If I recounted some of the things that we did below the age of 18 in Plymouth, some of the things that made the newspaper. There was one day where a hundred of us got together with weapons and we were gonna march over the bridge and attack the neighboring area, and all these, you know, things we did because of the environment. It's not who I am, but in an environment, we can bring out any side of us- ourselves in an effort to really conform and to fit in. Um, and as a method of defense we joined the crowds, and that's kind of what I've heard. When I, when I talk about those sort of first 18 years of your life, and those things, and you, you know, you answer these questions, how does it feel?

   3. RRRaphael Rowe20:33

      I have this heat glow through my body right now as we're talking about it because I- I'm kinda projecting myself back to that moment and the person that I was, the environment that I grew up in, my household, my friendship group, and the lack of guide and guidance and support that young men l- like me wanted. And I, you know, I'm not a, a kinda bleeding heart person who sorta says, "Oh, well there should've been people there catching us. There should've been people there guiding us." No, there shouldn't have been, um, but maybe understanding that environment, as you just say, you know, following in that environment is, is not always a choice that we make because it's the only choice. It's, it's a decision that we make because there is no alternative, because you don't know of any other alternative. And so talking about it now, um, it makes me heat up inside. Not, not in an angry way or, uh, in a passionate way, but as a reflection of the person and the life that I led, and what, what got me through that as well. I think that's also important because in that moment, at that time that I was kicking someone or being kicked, or I was fighting with someone, or I was breaking into a house, or shoplifting, it's the only thing I knew. It was the only thing I knew to get money to pay for the things that I wanted. It was the only thing that the people around me knew. You know, rolling a joint and smoking a joint was a bit of fun. It, i- i- we didn't think, as you're not supposed to think when you're a teenager, of the consequences. And for some people, those consequences can lead to, you know, dire situations as it did me, or it can lead to a new direction in life because they've learnt a lesson and they think, "Right, I wanna go down a different path." Or they meet someone who gives them an opportunity to go down a different path. So as I think about it now, I just remember there was no alternative.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett22:30

      Hmm. They're unknown unknowns, aren't they? You don't even know what you don't know. You don't even know that you don't know about the other paths that are possible if you grow up in that context where, you know, there's no relatable role models, there's no one you can model yourself against that's living a... O- other than what you said, which is the TV, you get to see some people that look like you, that come from where you come from on the TV. But what, I mean, how many seats are, are there at that table?

   5. RRRaphael Rowe22:53

      I just wonder whether there were people around but I wasn't exposed to them in the same way that there are... I mean, okay, social media, technology is, you know, giving us different platforms, but I just wonder where they were when I was in that predicament. Uh, my own predicament, my own environment. Where, where were these people? Um, whether it was the school teachers, as I say, they were not guiding me in the right direction. Yes, their job is to just educate and to impart information, and I should've been sucking up that information like most of my peers, I suppose, because not everybody who grew up in the same environment that I did went on to lead the same life as me. So there must've been something within my personality, and there definitely was, that made me become the person that I become and go down the path that I went down. But I do wonder where those people were at the time. Maybe they were just living their lives outside of the council estate and so they didn't come into where I was, um, because I saw very few people become successful that were in my immediate circle.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett23:47

      When you got stabbed, they, they slashed your face, didn't they?

   7. RRRaphael Rowe23:50

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett23:50

      You've still got a scar from that.

   9. RRRaphael Rowe23:51

      I have a scar down the left-hand side of my cheek. I was attacked.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett23:56

       You were... Th- this was part of the, you were kidnapped, taken from your guard, that's when they...

   11. RRRaphael Rowe23:59

       That was a different incident.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett24:00

       That was a different incident?

   13. RRRaphael Rowe24:01

       That was a different incident. I was, um, I was going to visit an ex-girlfriend. We'd had a bit of a rocky relationship. And I remember going to visit her in Brixton and there were some guys attacking an elderly woman, and being the kinda person that I was, and this is why I say there was something in me even then, um, that cared, and I tried to intervene. And it led to me getting into a fight with these guys. I didn't know they were holding a knife, I didn't have a knife with me at the time.And they beat me. One of 'em held me down and he stabbed me in my temple and then cut the side of my face open. After the fight, um, I got up, literally held my cheek together and made my way back to my best friend who took me to a hospital and I had my face stitched up by the hospital.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett24:56

       You were 18 at this time?

   15. RRRaphael Rowe24:58

       18.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett25:02

       At that age, 18, when you're looking out into your future, what are you seeing?

   17. RRRaphael Rowe25:06

       Nothing.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett25:06

       Nothing?

   19. RRRaphael Rowe25:07

       Absolutely nothing. Just the existence that I was in at that very moment. At that point, it was about revenge. It was about finding out who did to me what had just been done to me and how me and my group of friends could go and seek revenge on those individuals, especially my best friend who was my, kind of, um, leader, if you like. He was the one who was more angry than anybody. Um, that's all it was about at that very moment. Didn't see beyond that. That's what my existence was.

6. 25:35 – 32:44

   Having a child

   1. RRRaphael Rowe25:35

   2. SBSteven Bartlett25:35

      At 18 as well something, your life changes in a interesting way when you, um, you find out you're having a baby.

   3. RRRaphael Rowe25:42

      Yes. Another one of my girlfriends, who was also a young girl who grew up in the same estate as me, never really had any kind of feelings for each other at any point, ended up in bed one night, she got pregnant, um, and gave birth to my son. At that point, our relationship, which didn't exist in the first place, became even more of a challenge because I was still a young man myself and all of a sudden I'd become a dad and I didn't know what a dad was. My dad wasn't... You know, as much as I love my dad, he wasn't a role model in how to become a, a good dad. There was no one sort of saying to me, um, "This is a huge responsibility now, son, and you've gotta go off and do the right thing, not just for you but for this young man that you've brought into the world." And I was also just caught up in my own existence and my own world. I had nothing to offer my son. No guidance, no money, no life. Probably love, but I didn't quite understand what love meant at that point to share with this new thing that had come into, in- into my life. And so our relationship, mine and my son's mother, broke down, didn't exist. And that was the end of that.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett27:02

      Did you think she had been trying to trap you?

   5. RRRaphael Rowe27:07

      I think I was, at that age, quite, um, quite popular among the group of people that I was hanging around with and, um, had a bit of a reputation. Um, and yeah, I think, I think she, you know, she didn't protect herself and I didn't protect myself. And so when we made love and had sex, didn't even recognize or realize that she might fall pregnant. But at the time one of the, one of the things that came between us was me thinking that the reason she got pregnant was because she wanted to trap me into a relationship where she could have me and no one else could. And that became a bugbear of mine, it, it just made me feel that this wasn't somebody getting pregnant because we loved each other and we want to bring a child into the world and have a happy ever after. I felt it was a, a trap that I was being brought into this situation because she wanted me. Um, and that's how self-centered I was at that age. And this was actually when I was, just before I turned just 20, actually, not 18 but just before I turned 20, because it was only a short period after my son was born, two months in fact, that I was first arrested and charged with crimes that I didn't commit and ended up in prison. So it was only two months after he was born that my life changed forever.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett28:35

      Were you there? You weren't there when he was born, I think I read in your story.

   7. RRRaphael Rowe28:37

      I was at the hospital the day after he was born, so I got there the day after he was born and did what any parent, dad would want to do, which is hold their newborn son, daughter and, and try... And I'm glad I did actually, because I think that was a moment that I bonded with him and recognized this was real as opposed to the months leading up to it, uh, of pregnancy. Um, so I was there the day after he was born, um, and then had limited contact over the next two months before I ended up getting arrested and imprisoned and then that was the end of our relationship. And this is why I say I felt that the, the, the, the mother of my son, um, tried to trap me because during that period it was, "I don't want anybody else to come and visit you. If you wanna see..." They, you know, there were ultimatums made to me that I would not be able to see my son unless I made certain decisions in my life to cut other people out of my life and, and that kind of reinforced this idea that I'd already had I was being trapped into a relationship I didn't want to be in. I didn't love the woman. We, we had a sexual relationship and that's all it really was. And I feel really bad saying that because a son come out of that and, and, you know, is a grown man now, but I still don't have any relationship with him as a result of my actions. Not his, nothing to do with him and probably not even his mother. Um, but really it comes down to the person I was at that time in my life.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett30:10

      When was the last time you s- spoke to him?

   9. RRRaphael Rowe30:13

      I've never spoke to him. I've never had the privilege of having a conversation with him apart from when he was still in his nappies being brought up to see me on a visiting table.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett30:25

       Have you tried?

   11. RRRaphael Rowe30:27

       When I came out of prison, I made a application through the courts against my better judgment to try and get access to my son, and I remember turning up at court on one occasion-... um, as the hearings were progressing, and I think this was the kinda key hearing. And as I was walking into the court, y- you know, the solicitors and the lawyers and the people that were involved in this kinda child custody case, was making it clear to me that my son didn't wanna see me, his mum didn't want me to have a relationship with him, and I just felt at that moment, it would be wrong of me to force this situation. So, I walked out of the court and left it there. And so I've had no contact and I've not attempted since then to make contact. There was this kinda little bit of me that felt, "In time, when he's ready, he will come looking for me for us to develop a relationship." Um, sadly, that's not happened.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett31:25

       Does he know who you are these days? Does he know-

   13. RRRaphael Rowe31:28

       I think so. I- I think so. I'm sure he does because he grew up in the same world that I grew up in, in South East London. Um, I don't know what part of the world he's living in right now, I don't know what his life is like, what his relationship's like, whether he has children, whether I'm a grandfather. I have no idea. And I'm scared to even find out, to be honest. There's a bit of me that's really scared to find out that I miss so much. It was a painful, it was a painful time during the years that I was in prison because I kept a diary. Every day, I'd write in that diary. Every other day, I'd write in that diary a message to this son of mine that I'd never met or had a relationship with, just so that he knew, when I got out, that I hadn't completely abandoned him. Physically, yes, I had no control over that. But in my thoughts, he was always there. So I kept this diary in the hope that one day, when I got out of prison, I could present these diaries and he would be able to see throughout the 12 years that I was in prison, that there were lots of mentions of his names and what I was thinking and what I was feeling and the pain I was going through not being able to have a relationship with him. And unfortunately, I've not been able to give him those diaries. They're in a locked- locked box at my home at the moment.

7. 32:44 – 35:47

   Your relationship with your son now

   1. RRRaphael Rowe32:44

   2. SBSteven Bartlett32:46

      How- how has that been to deal with over the years, honestly? How's that... What's- what's that like?

   3. RRRaphael Rowe32:51

      I think I- I... That moment where I walked out of the court and made the decision that if they don't want anything to do with me, I'm not gonna force the situation. I'm not gonna get involved. It- it- it might've been the wrong decision at the time, it might've been the right decision at the time. What I didn't want to do is create a scenario where more pain was caused. And I think forcing, he would've been 12 years old at the time, forcing a 12-year-old to have a relationship with a dad that he was told was not a good person, not a nice person, didn't love you, would be the wrong thing to do. And I came to terms with that there and then and accepted that if I was ever gonna have a relationship with this son of mine that I'd never really got to know, it would have to be on his terms and not my term. And unfortunately, those terms, as far as I know, have never materialized. I kind of accepted it. I kind of, as sad as it is and as much as I would advocate for any parent, and the funny thing is I will stand there and say, "What are you talking about? Go and meet your son or your daughter. It- it doesn't matter that y- you think they don't want to see you, it's your responsibility." I've just not been able to bring myself to do what I would tell other people to do because I'm scared. Scared of maybe being rejected, you know? We all know what that might be like going and meeting this man, and as you say, he will know who I am, he will know what I do, um, and the success that I've made of my life. Um, but for him not to- to reach out to me, maybe it's because he still doesn't want to know who his dad is.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett34:31

      Sometimes it's, as you've cle- clearly have, is to have empathy for their situation. That's clearly what you've demonstrated is, you know, you don't- you don't know, I guess, what he's going through or dealing with, but you do know that if he did want to reach out, then he's probably clear on the channels of doings, doing that.

   5. RRRaphael Rowe34:50

      I think so. And th- there's a bit of me that also thinks maybe he's scared. Maybe he's scared that coming to me now would be too hard a thing. I mean, it's quite a dilemma, isn't it? Both of us, at both ends, probably desperately want to rekindle this relationship and for me to introduce him to his brother and sister, you know, my kids. Um, and I think about it on and off. I- I- I do think about it. I do think about how nice that would be, how lovely that would be. And you see other people make, um, make those things work. But fear and s- being scared, I don't know, you know, as tough as I am in the world that I work in, when it comes to those kind of emotional feelings, um, I think it would be quite challenging. It is challenging, hence I've- I've not taken the plunge, I think.

8. 35:47 – 46:55

   The moment your life changed forever

   1. SBSteven Bartlett35:47

      So two months after his birth, that's the day that the police kick in your door in the middle of the night. Can you take me to that- to that moment, that day, waking up in the middle of the night with these men stood above you with guns?

   2. RRRaphael Rowe36:04

      Early hours of the morning, I'm- I'm in bed and I'm asleep, and I heard a commotion, four or five o'clock in the morning and thought it was actually my best mate and his brother who often had arguments and started to walk down the stairs in my boxer shorts, T-shirt, um, and then I saw men in balaclavas pointing guns at me, telling me to stand still, not move, in really loud voices, or they'll shoot me. Um, um, I saw my brother, my- my best friend's brother being taken out of the flat at that moment, um, handcuffed, going backwards and my flatmate had already been moved out.And then I was told to come downstairs. I was told to lay on the floor. They put plastic handcuffs on my hands behind my back, um, all the time, sort of shouting and threatening to shoot me if I moved, asking me whether there was anybody else in my flat. Um, I didn't, at that point, really realize that they were the police 'cause there was no police stop like you do in the movies. It was just guys pointing guns, screaming and shouting. I was disorientated and I was taken out of my flat, and it was only at that point I realized they were police because there were other uniformed officers. These guys weren't uniformed officers. I think they call them the S17 squad or something, the firearms special squad or something. Um, so it was only when I got out onto the landing, outside of my flat and was dragged down the stairs that I first realized that they were the police, and at that point I saw other tenants who were living in that hostel at the time also sort of face down on the floor, and as we speak about it, I remember one of my flatmates almost looking up to me with these eyes as the police were kind of knelt on his back, and you kind of, you kind of never forget those images. They're kind of images that stick with you at those very moments. And I was taken out of the flat, and, um, and it was at that point that police officers identified themselves, told me I was being arrested for serious offenses, and then I was put in the back of a police van. Um, and it was at that moment, you know, on reflection, at the time, it was terrifying, it was horrible, it was, it was wrong, and even though I was involved in crime, there was nothing that warranted armed police coming to my property and arresting me. Well, at least I didn't think so anyway. But when I was in the back of that police van, at that very moment, and I was in the back of the van with my best friend, Michael, and his brother. Police officers opened the van and they called Michael's name, and they removed him from the van, and they called his brother's name, and they removed him from the van. And there was something really strange about that because there was 12, 13 people arrested in that flat at that very time. They were all being bundled into different vans. But at that very moment, I was on my own, and I was on my own for the next 12 years from that very moment onwards, and there was something very indicative about what happened there to isolate me into something that I, I, a crime that I didn't commit, and it started at that very moment as far as I'm concerned.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett39:08

      How long did they interrogate you for? And d- and when did you find out the crime that they were trying to sort of place you against?

   4. RRRaphael Rowe39:16

      So you get taken... I was taken in this kind of woo, woo, woo, all the vans and the police, um, taken to police stations in and around the Surrey, Canterbury, um, uh, Caterham area, and I was interrogated for two or three days. It was, y- you know, after they'd taken my property and I was, um, I met a duty solicitor who came in to one of the police cells that I was held in, who told me that I was being, um... I'd been arrested for aggravated burglary, um, and other serious offenses, but hadn't told me at that point that there was a murder, a series of aggravated robberies involved. So it was only during the interrogation, three days, three days, so it was on the 20... 22nd of December that I was arrested. So on the 22nd of December, I was interrogated, the 23rd of December, on the 24th of December I was charged. So it was only during those interrogations with these police officers that I discovered that I was being accused of a murder and a series of aggravated robberies, um, that were in relation to crimes that had been committed around the M25 area. There was a huge amount of publicity at the time, but I was unaware of that publicity because I wasn't a kid that paid any attention to the news or had any interest in what was going on in the newspapers. But at the time, you know, the story of the M25 three gang was on the front page of, of every national newspaper. Rewards were being offered for the arrest of these, um, killers, these monsters, as, as the media were describing this gang. But I was completely oblivious to any of that and only found out during that interrogation that I was being accused of murder, not knowing it was anything to do with that particular crime and, and the series of aggravated robberies.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett41:05

      You know, I watch a lot of these police interrogation videos, and I always... Y- you can't help but wonder what you would do in that situation if you are innocent, what you would say, how you would be, if you're triple guessing your own body language or... But in those interrogations, when you find out what the crime is and you realize you have... "No, this isn't me. This i- I didn't do this. I wasn't there." What are you, what are you thinking and feeling? Are you feeling that you're gonna be out and they're gonna, they've got the wrong guy and they're gonna realize, or are you, are you terrified?

   6. RRRaphael Rowe41:33

      I think it's a combination of both. You try to hide... I tried to hide my fear and I think anybody would... When you come from, and it goes back to that environment that I grew up in and my kind of experiences, if you like, with the police and, you know, people who are constantly in your face kind of thing, and I think during the interrogation there was a lot of fear. I was scared, um, but at the same time I was cocky. I was a teenager. I was kind of almost for the first time in my life standing up for myself. I mean, y- you know, standing up for myself in a fight is one thing, st- against my peers or, or people. Standing up against the authority, um, or authorities like police officers is a completely different mindset. But during those interrogations, during those interviews with the police where they started to tell me that I'd killed somebody, tell me that I was involved in these crimes and that people were saying that I was involved in these crimes that I knew I was not involved in, it allowed me to be a little bit cocky. Cocky is the only way of describing it, where I didn't shut up and do a no comment thing. It's like, "No, what are you talking about? I, I didn't do that. No, I wasn't there. That's a lie." So I was defending myself and standing up for myself from the very beginning, and I think...I think that, that created a situation where the police themselves were having to, to make my life harder, more difficult in that interview room, because I- I- I wasn't, I wouldn't say roll over, but I wasn't accepting what they were telling me I should accept. And that's not me saying that the police were trying to get me to confess for crimes that I didn't commit. It was more about them asserting their authority and telling this little Brown boy with dreadlocks who couldn't, y- y- you know, articulate himself like I can with you right now, that he was a murderer, that he was a, um, a bad person who'd done bad things, and, "We've got you, and we're gonna lock you up for the rest of your life." That's what I was experiencing. So it was a terrifying experience, and I was scared, and I was on my own, and I wasn't being supported by the solicitor at the time. But equally, at that moment during that time, something started to grow in me that made me become the person that I am today.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett44:03

      What is that thing that started to grow in you?

   8. RRRaphael Rowe44:06

      Hope, and resilience, and determination, and this ability not to allow someone else to dictate who you are, what you're gonna become, what you should do, what you shouldn't do. It's as if they were planting seeds within me, my physical body, and in my mind, that would grow over the next few months and years that I was wrongfully imprisoned, convicted of a murder and these crimes that I hadn't committed. I didn't realize it at the time, but on reflection, I realize, in those moments, where I'd always been a follower, followed my friends, followed the environment that I was in, got involved in things that if you'd asked me to do it on my own, I would never have done it because I'd have been too scared to do it. You know, burglar a house on my own? You're joking. I couldn't do something like that. But when my mates were doing it, yeah, I'd follow and get involved. When we were going in shops together and shoplifting, I'd get involved. Ask me to do it on my own, and I'd be quite scared to do it. And so for the first time in those interrogations and during the early remand period, I became, I would say, um, a- a- a young man, and that's where the seeds of a young man, for me, started to grow, when I was put in a predicament where there was no way out, apart from drawing within myself the strength that I needed to get out.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett45:34

      And for context, the crime that you were being accused of, what- what exactly was that crime?

   10. RRRaphael Rowe45:41

       So there was a murder where a elderly man was attacked with his boyfriend in a field, and during the course of that attack, he died of a heart attack, having suffered a beating from this gang of three men. The same three men that were involved in that attack, that hijacking of a car, where the car was hijacked by three men, the man was beaten, the same three men then turned up at the property of some wealthy people in Surrey, broke into their home, tied up the occupants, attacked and stabbed one of the occupants, um, and then they fled that crime in the cars from that property and went to a third scene, all in one night, all over the 15th, 16th of December 1988. They then went to another crime scene, broke into the property of, um, two occupants and tied up those occupants and fled with their property. So those were the three crimes: murder, attempted murder, the stabbing, and the aggravated robbery, and then the third aggravated robbery at the final scene. So all of those crimes is what I was being accused of being involved in.

9. 46:55 – 50:46

   Were you hopeful?

   1. RRRaphael Rowe46:55

   2. SBSteven Bartlett46:55

      As your sente- sentencing and sort of the case approached, were you hopeful? Were you hopeful that you were gonna be found not guilty and be able to walk?

   3. RRRaphael Rowe47:04

      It wasn't, Steve, about whether I was hopeful or, or, um, y- you know, what I felt. It was about the evidence. It was about the information that was available to everybody that was involved in this case. And by that, I mean me, my co-defendants, and the lawyers that were defending and prosecuting, what was available through the victims of the crimes, and, uh, uh, uh, y- you know, just before, and it's important to mention, just before I was arrested and we talked about or I talked about the headlines that were in the newspapers that I was not privy to at the time, there were calls for the, the police to arrest the two White men and one Black man that were responsible for these crimes. And those detailed descriptions of the perpetrators who were involved in the murder and the series of robberies came from the victims of these crimes, not just one victim at one scene, but the crimes that I just described at three different locations. Each of the victims at those scenes described two White men and a Black man. One victim went so far as to say one of the White men had blue eyes and fair hair because they saw that through the balaclava that they were wearing and they were up close. This is not fleeting sort of CSI kind of identifications where you can tell where they may have made a mistake. All three victims at three completely separate crimes had given descriptions to the police, which were then relayed in the newspapers, the News of the World front page, you know. "I came face the face with the Kill for Kicks gangs." That was the kinda headlines as witnesses saw the men attempting to burn the cars from one of the robberies. "The two White men standing by the car terrify me, so I called the police." You know, these were witnesses, outside of the victims, who identified White men. So the fact that myself, Brown guy, brown eyes, dreadlocks, my best mate, Black guy, brown eyes, dreadlocks, and my third co-defendant, who was arrested slightly later than I was, African, Black guy-... none of us fitted the descriptions that the victims and the witnesses knew were responsible for these crimes. Yet, I was charged, I was tried, I stood in the dock when the victims came into court, looked at me and my co-defendants, who still had these dreadlocks, and I'd had these dreadlocks for years, looked at us in the dock, and knew, must have known, that we were not responsible for the crimes that were perpetrated against them. And yet, when they told the jury that the descriptions of the men were two White and one Black, their conviction was not as it should've been. And by that, I would argue that the police started to undermine their story to secure the convictions that they needed to secure. So, when I talk about, and you asked the question, you know, was I hopeful at this point that, you know, things would be, um, successful at the trial? I should never have been charged, let alone held on remand in a prison within a prison in Brixton for 18 months. And let alone dragged into the dock to face these charges when everybody involved in the case knew we could not and did not commit these crimes. So yes, I was confident when we were in the dock that the 12 men and women that would judge us would conclude that this is a racist, unjust trial, and they would be on our side. But they weren't, they convicted us, and I was destined to spend the rest of my life in prison for the crimes I didn't commit.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett50:45

      That moment

10. 50:46 – 54:16

    The moment you hear the verdict

    1. SBSteven Bartlett50:46

       when you hear the verdict, what- what happens in your mind? What, how does, what's that moment like?

    2. RRRaphael Rowe50:53

       It's hard to reflect back. I know that being a young, volatile man that I was, even though I'd learnt some self-control and discipline because I practiced yoga in those 18 months of being banged up in a cell for 23 hours a day, that kept me going, and practicing taekwondo and doing in-cell press-ups and all that. So as well as physically preparing my body physically to withstand the onslaught of the trial, um, when I was in that dock, I think, I think again, and I talk about those seeds that were planted in me during that interrogation time, and what I discovered during the 18 months that I was in this prison within a prison. I think when that verdict came in, um, as well as exploding and screaming and shouting, and my parents, family, and supporters were angry, I just wanted to fight everything and everyone for what was happening to me. I'd already put up a lot of resistance, but there was a- a little chink that made me believe that it- it just couldn't happen. They couldn't convict me and send me to prison for crimes I didn't commit of such a serious nature. Um, so as well as being volatile at that very moment, I continued to be volatile for the next God knows how many years. And the only person that suffered was me. I was the only person that suffered spending years in isolation, segregation, being beaten physically by prison guards who were not responsible for my wrongful conviction. But they were the authorities keeping me in prison, even though that's their job, but I didn't recognize that at the time. So when I heard that verdict, it put a seed in me, again, that said, "No, I'm- I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna let you do this. I'm not gonna sit back and suffer this. W- why should I? Why should my family? Why should you get away with this? No. I'm not gonna allow that to happen." And that became that seed that grew in me in the years that followed.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett52:53

       And what was the- the sentence?

    4. RRRaphael Rowe52:57

       I was sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder, I was sentenced to 15 years for the attempted murder, I was sentenced to 12 years for the attempted murder, aggravated robbery, I was sentenced to 12 years for the assault on the guy that was with the guy that died, and another 12 years for the final robbery. Totaling life plus 56 years, I think, if my calculations are right. But in reality, my sentence was life never to be released. Because when you get a life sentence, if you maintain your innocence and you don't conform to the regime and jump through the hoops of accepting guilt, you don't get released. Not when I was locked up in prison. I think things may have changed now because people recognize that the system gets things wrong and people have been released despite the fact they've continuously protested their innocence many years after, you know, their convictions or- or sentence has been served. Life sentence in this country can mean anything from 12 years to 30 years. But I was destined to spend the rest of my natural life in prison for crimes I didn't commit.

11. 54:16 – 59:39

    This podcast this streamed in prison

    1. RRRaphael Rowe54:16

    2. SBSteven Bartlett54:16

       You knew this, um, this podcast is streamed in prisons? Did they tell you?

    3. RRRaphael Rowe54:21

       I have a lot of supporters in prison.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett54:22

       Really?

    5. RRRaphael Rowe54:23

       I do. Uh, uh, actually I think people admire the work that I do having come out of prison from that predicament and go on to try and advocate for prisons, prisoners. But not just people who, but also representing the families and the victims and everybody and anyone that's involved in this space because of the scars, you know, seeing my physical scars, but you- you know, there's a lot of kind of emotional and internal scars that- that I carry from- from that time in prison. So it's great to know that any prisoner listening to this story, sitting in a cell, believing that they're innocent or even guilty but not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, take it from me, there is a fucking light at the end of the tunnel if only you use your time constructively. If you sit on your bed, sit in your cell, look at the bars and don't do something to change the person that put you in prison, especially the guilty ones, they're just gonna end up...... back in prison, or your destiny is gonna fall flat, if you have any destiny. Use the time constructively, that would be my argument to any guy in prison listening to this, because you can. You have, at your disposal, what a lot of people in this world don't have, and that is time.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett55:37

       Mm.

    7. RRRaphael Rowe55:38

       Fuck me, they have some time-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett55:39

       I'm sorry.

    9. RRRaphael Rowe55:39

       ... you know, not just for reflection-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett55:41

        Yeah.

    11. RRRaphael Rowe55:42

        ... but to use it constructively.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett55:44

        I went to, um, I went to one of the prisons that streams the podcast. So, we did a deal with Her Majesty's Prison Service, where, um, they have a screen in their cell and they can watch this podcast and these conversations. And I got to go couple of weeks ago, two weeks ago, I think it is, maybe three weeks ago, and see, meet the prisoners, talk to them, go inside their cells. They told me about the different episodes they've been watching. I get feedback, as well, from e- on the episodes, which is amazing. But it was, um, it was a really... You're, you're totally right in what you said about the time thing. I could see how they have (laughs) the, the thing that so much of, you know... In terms of time that we, we find in our very busy lives, we're always trying to fi- find a couple more minutes more. They were using their time in the most amazing, sometimes incredibly inspiring ways. I got handed business plans that I literally have upstairs. You know, I saw crafts, things they'd made out of soap that I couldn't believe were, were possible. Um, but it, but, but at the same time, there was, um, a real feeling that these, these young men were at a very important crossroads. And that's, I think that's what sort of stunned me into silence as I left was, I could see the crossroads quite clearly. And it goes back to what you said at the start of this conversation, where I felt with some of them that were, that wanted to, to better themselves, or at least told me they wanted to better themselves, they were lacking, like, role models in the context back home, or information on how to, once they returned to the environment they'd come from, how to create that life. And that was the thing that I really struggled with. I, I almost felt responsibility leaving there, thinking, "How can, what can I do to help that young kid who's handed me this business plan?" Which is amazing, 'cause clearly he's spent so much time on it. But I know that when he leaves th- the system, he's gonna fall back into an environment where there isn't entrepreneurs and there isn't anybody to tell him how to start that business, or whatever it might be.

    13. RRRaphael Rowe57:28

        W- with, y- y- y- you know, support my foundation, that's what you should do-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett57:31

        Yeah, well (overlapping)

    15. RRRaphael Rowe57:32

        ... work with my foundation. But, but the important thing is during my time inside, I, I didn't study the law, but I got to know what the law was all about, because I needed to fight my wrongful convictions by understanding the law. Journalists were writing stories about me being a monster. The Sun newspaper was calling for hanging to be brought back, and if they had their way, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you today, 'cause I would've been hung, strung up for a crime I didn't commit, and then pardoned 10, 15 years later when they recognized my innocence. Fortunately, I was shrewd enough, and this would be my message to prisoners, to be shrewd enough that I studied a correspondence journalism course in prison, because I knew I needed the media to tell you and other people on the outside world that I was innocent. So I studied the media to understand how the media worked so that I could plant stories in newspapers, national newspapers, challenging issues to do with prison or disclosure of evidence or conviction. So not specifically about my case, although that was my ultimate motive. It was about understanding how journalists work and then using those journalists to get my message out there. And so that would be my argument. The guys giving you their, giving you their, kind of, business plan, why give it to you? Why not take that business plan, understand it themselves, and do it for themselves? Yes, they do need somebody to offer them a space, or a piece of opportunity, but they need to do it for themselves. And that's what I learnt during those early years, or late years, that I was in prison, that you cannot rely on one person to dig you out or, or help you out of the situation. You have to do it yourself. Which is why I say these seeds that were planted in me from the beginning, they grew into the resilience, the determination, you know, hope, which is, you know... Everyone has a story, don't they, about hope, you know, how we listen to other people. It's, um, it's self-determination that you can only find when you, when you discover yourself in a situation that you cannot control, you have no control over, but you can control what you do for yourself. Giving you their business plan, hoping that you will do something for them would be great, but you can't do it for everyone, so they have to do it for themselves.

12. 59:39 – 1:02:33

    Did you think you were going to spend your whole life in prison?

    1. RRRaphael Rowe59:39

    2. SBSteven Bartlett59:39

       If I'd asked you then, say, couple of years into your, um, your sentence, if you were going to spend the rest of your life in prison, what would you have said to me?

    3. RRRaphael Rowe59:49

       No. I was never gonna spend the rest of my life in prison for a crime I didn't commit. I was not gonna come out of there in a box. I was not gonna let them kill me, and there have been, and was, occasions where prison officers beat me so badly, the easiest way to get through it would've been to die. Um, I was not gonna spend the rest of my life in prison, because I was gonna fight for my freedom. Initially, I thought it was the physical fight that was gonna get me there, confronting the prison officers, fighting prisoners, you know, getting involved in volatile and violent situations was my way out. That was really just me escaping the reality of the suffering that I was going through. Inflicting pain on others, being inflicted pain on me was a way of, kind of, dampening that pain, that suffering. It wasn't until I started to educate myself around the areas I needed to educate myself, and also grow up and become more wiser and listening to the wiser guys who had spent many, many years in prison and were telling me, "Don't do it the way you're doing it. You will not get out." Some high profile miscarriage of justice individuals who had been successful in their own campaigns were, were telling me, "You can't do it the way that you're doing it. You need to, you know, get the tools, pens and paper." I remember having my first tic-tic-ti- typewriter, and I'd tic-tic-tick in my cell, that's what we're dealing with. There was no internet, there was no emails, there was no mobile phones, or anything like that. I was doing it with the raw materials, you know, tic-tic-tic, made a spelling mistake, out came the Tipp-Ex. I'd go for the Tipp-Ex and sit, because I had time, wait for it to fucking dry, and then I could tic-tic over it again, and carry on writing the document that I was writing. So you can imagine (ticking noise) one piece of paper, I'm writing an application to European court, 200 pages long. Can you imagine how long that took me on a bloody typewriter? 'Cause there were no computers and no access to anything but that typewriter. Can't remember who I got that typewriter from, or where it came from, but I'm truly grateful, because not only did it give me the tool to fight my wrongful conviction, but it allowed me...... to understand myself and to learn from myself, how to use new words, how to articulate myself, how to express myself, how to win an argument, how to change a situation. Um, and that's what I did in that time that I was... And, and we're talking seven, eight years into my prison sentence now. So no, I was never gonna spend the rest of my life in prison because I was gonna fight for my freedom until I was freed, and I did, and I won.

13. 1:02:33 – 1:05:40

    Seeing people taking their own lives

    1. RRRaphael Rowe1:02:33

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:33

       One of the things I read was, was how y- one day you saw someone had taken their own life in one of the cells, um, near yours. You know, the, the burden of having to deal with, you know, being convicted for a crime you didn't commit is one thing, but then having, h- ha- being exposed to these kind of things at a, as a young man, these are images that I imagine don't ever sort of leave your, leave your mind, unfortunately.

    3. RRRaphael Rowe1:03:04

       No. Um, this was an elderly Black guy, been in prison probably 20 years for murder. He was hoping that he would get released. And he got a letter, um... You know, people ignored him. He's the kind of guy that you kind of walk past most of the time, and you might give him a little bit of burn, cigarettes for him to smoke or something. But he's one of those guys that you kind of, you know he's there, but he's not imposing or anything. But he got that letter from the parole board that denied him the next opportunity to be released. And after 20-odd years in prison, he knew that he was destined to spend probably another five or ten years in prison. Um, and he took his life. He hung himself, and he killed himself. It's not the first time that I saw somebody die. In fact, I saved a guy's life. When I was in one of the last prisons that I was in, I became a gym orderly, somebody that helped other people, PE instructor you could say, within prison. The only job I would do. And so I would be let out of my cell slightly earlier than most guys. And I was let out of my cell doing my thing, going down to the gymnasium, and I was walking past a guy's cell. And I saw his legs dangling, and I run into the cell, and I grabbed his legs, and I lifted him up. And he was, y- you know, doing as you do. H- h- he was shaking, and I managed to get him down. Didn't know what to do. You know, he didn't die. He recovered. I went to the gym. On my way back, he was quite rude actually (laughs) because I saved his life. He wasn't grateful or thankful. Um, and it was an awkward one because I thought, "I saved this guy's life. I did what anybody would have done." Um, and the strange thing is he just got on with it. He didn't... Nobody knew. Nobody knew what he'd attempted except me because I stopped him from doing what he was doing. I never found out why he attempted to, to take his own life. But you live with those stories never having an answer, and that's prison for you. There are people in there who have done horrific things, and you know they've done horrific things. And there are people in there who shouldn't be there, not because they're innocent, simply because they did what they did to survive or to provide for their family. But you never know why. You never get the real answers because some people are just not prepared to share it.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:39

       What was this

14. 1:05:40 – 1:10:25

    People being paid to make false statements

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:40

       about s- the police paying some witnesses or paying someone to, to give false evidence that I, that I was reading?

    2. RRRaphael Rowe1:05:48

       There was, at the time that the police were hunting this gang, a reward put up, 5,000 pounds in 1988, a lot of money, 20,000 pounds by the Daily Mail, making the reward 25,000 pounds. And so the theory, and I say it's theory because we've never been given the documents to prove what we know is true, so the theory is that one of the key witnesses in my case who gave evidence against me that led to my convictions was one of my ex-girlfriends. Alongside her was a white guy who was a suspect at one point, the only person in the case with blue eyes and fair hair, which fitted the description of the perpetrator. But he was a known police informer and worked on other cases with the police. So there was a conclusion that he and this girlfriend of mine were paid that reward money to give false evidence. And that was part of the evidence that we presented to the European Court of Human Rights, and they said that the prosecution, the police, and the Daily Mail need to disclose whether these witnesses did get this money, because if they did, it would explain their incentive to tell lies. So the girlfriend, for example, just to put this into context, when I was on remand, then she was my alibi as well as a prosecution witness. So I was in bed making love with her on the night that these crimes were being committed. I was in bed making love with her at the very moment that the murder was being committed some 40 miles away from where I lived. Despite that alibi, I was still convicted. So if you think the identification issue is outrageous, the fact that I was in bed with a girlfriend making love at the time the murder was committed, she tells the police that, prosecution accept that, but then say it's a mystery how I got to the scene of the crime. There's no mystery. I wasn't there. She sent me a letter when I was on remand in Brixton Prison apologizing for the lies that she told, and the lies that she told...... for the police was that I left her at 1:30 in the morning after we made love. The murder had already been committed by 11 o'clock that night. The first robbery had already been committed by half past 12, so even on her lies, it still didn't allow for me to be a part of this gang and a part of these crimes. So when she sent me this letter to Brixton Prison, I presented it to my defense, the prosecution become aware of it, and we believe that she was paid a reward to say that she sent me that letter because she wanted to help me and it wasn't true. So the reward, we believe, was paid to her to tell lies for the police, and to this police informer for him to tell lies. And we still believe that today, despite the fact that the prosecution, using public interest immunity certificates, so these kind of secret documents, have still, to this day, never disclosed who got that reward money. I wrote to the Daily Mail and said, "You paid this money to these witnesses, who have been told, uh, who have told lies. You paid this money to a witness who was a key suspect and could be responsible for these crimes. Surely, there is an onus and a responsibility on you, the Daily Mail, to disclose this information." And they never did, to this day.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:23

       And did you ever write to her and ask her if she received the money?

    4. RRRaphael Rowe1:09:27

       No. I didn't know how to, and I didn't, I didn't feel that was, that was necessary. I, eh, I knew she lied, she knew she lied. Um, we got... When the Rough Justice program was made, they secretly recorded the guy on their show admitting that he conspired with the police. This was one of the key pieces of new information that Rough Justice broadcast. But they secretly recorded this witness admitting to them that he'd fabricated evidence for the police in the M25 case. He didn't know that they were secretly recording that conversation for the program they were making about my case. And so that, in itself, became a key piece of evidence. But I never, from my conviction to this day, had any contact with the ex-girlfriend or that guy who we know told lies.

15. 1:10:25 – 1:17:16

    Story about a chaplain

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:25

       I read a, this other quite, quite funny in some ways, quite perverse in other ways, story about a chaplain. (laughs) You know what I'm gonna say.

    2. RRRaphael Rowe1:10:34

       Yes, I do. Bizarre things happen in prison-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:37

       (laughs)

    4. RRRaphael Rowe1:10:37

       ... for bizarre people. And we benefit from this, of course.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:40

       Yeah, clearly. (laughs) Um, I mean, you can tell the story. (laughs)

    6. RRRaphael Rowe1:10:45

       For those who want to hear, this story is about a chaplain, right? So, prison is a place where you don't have conjugal visits. I.e., you know, married men and women who are in prison are not entitled to have any intimacy with their husband, wife, girlfriends, when they're in prison. That's just not how it works in this country. In other countries it does, but in this country, it doesn't. But there are some people in prison, including this chaplain in this particular prison, who had sympathy for prisoners. He had an understanding that intimacy, and opportunity for intimacy, was limited. And so, um, if, and we prisoners knew this, if you could get your loved one outside, girlfriend outside, or someone you wanted to have sex with outside, write the chaplain a letter, to say to the chaplain that you are thinking about dumping your boyfriend, or you get that letter and take it to the chaplain and say, "I've just received this Dear John." A Dear John being a letter from a girlfriend or a loved one outside saying that they don't want anything more to do with you, and that you need a, uh, private visit. A visit that is not in the visiting's hall with everybody else, but maybe in a, you know, quieter place. And so this chaplain was known for helping people out in this way. So, he would allow people to book this private visit where they would have their, um, their loved one come in, their girlfriends or their wives come in. But what he had was a hole in the wall, and what he did is he used to spy on people who were in those private visits, who took those opportunities to have a quick bit of sex, and he was spying on 'em. And they discovered that he had this hole in the wall and was watching prisoners have sex with their wives or girlfriends during these encounters. Now, I would argue that most prisoners wouldn't care less, because I was one of those prisoners, and after 10 years, for the first time, I was able to have intimacy to the point where I came in, you know, nanoseconds kind of thing.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:42

       (laughs)

    8. RRRaphael Rowe1:12:43

       I know, a detail too much, but the reality is, is when you've been wanking for so many years and you've not had any intimacy, it is a real hard thing, not to not come in second nanoseconds-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:55

       (laughs) Yeah.

    10. RRRaphael Rowe1:12:55

        ... but, but to rekindle those kind of relationships, you know, how to become intimate with somebody when you've been deprived of that for so long. How you... And as I said at the beginning of this, you know, I wasn't somebody who had people coming up on the visit giving me big hugs and cuddles. So it was a real, real challenge, just one of the challenges that you face at the end of being in prison, and there are many, many more. There's psychological as well as the, the, the physical. But I was privileged to be in one of those rooms on one of these occasions. Would I have reported that chaplain, that he was watching me? No, I wouldn't. I would've used it to get another visit. But unfortunately, somebody did grass on him, and so he was removed from the prison system. And that privilege, that the prison officers didn't know about, stopped.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:42

        Was, was he a priest or something? Was he a...

    12. RRRaphael Rowe1:13:44

        He was a priest who worked in the prison.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:46

        And how was he getting, getting these women in? So this was one of your ex-girlfriends that you've gone-

    14. RRRaphael Rowe1:13:49

        So he wasn't, he wasn't smuggling them in or anything like that. So they would come through the normal visiting channels, but you would have approval from the priest or the chaplain-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:58

        Ah, okay.

    16. RRRaphael Rowe1:13:58

        ... to have this visit, not in the normal visiting hall, but in the chapel As a religious thing. Uh, not, it's not even religious, but they have a chapel in prison-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:07

        Okay.

    18. RRRaphael Rowe1:14:07

        ... where people can go and they can practice their religions. But they would have rooms in there, um, you know, it might be his office. In, on this occasion, it was like a, a communal area that the chaplaincy and people coming in to visit him on official visit would sit down and have a cup of tea, and whatever. I was in the room with my...... kind of pen pal girlfriend, if you like, at the time. Um, I'm gonna give you the graphic detail-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:31

        Good.

    20. RRRaphael Rowe1:14:31

        ... because it's important. So, y- y- you know, we're kinda doing it. We're kind of like, kinda going at it at nanosecond time. And he walked into the room, um, as I was kind of mid-flow, if you like, and picked up the tea and biscuits. Or he dropped off or picked up. I can't remember if he dropped off the tea and biscuits. But he didn't bat an eyelid. He literally just came into the room. We were kind of about to kind of react in a way, but we didn't have any time. He just literally came in, picked up the tray or dropped off the tray, and just walked straight back out. So, he was well-aware that anybody he agreed to give one of those visits, it would be an opportunity. And I saw it as a great thing. Y- you know, there are not many people in prison who have sympathy for prisoners or would do something to allow them a moment like I was allowed on, on that occasion, and after such a long time of no intimacy, um, I was grateful for it. Gutted that he lost his job.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:30

        (laughs) I'm sure people have a lot of mixed feelings about it (laughs) , so I won't, I won't, I won't comment on, uh, on my views, but I'm sure people have a lot of different mixed opinions on, on that and the kind of p- perverse behavior. Quick one. As you might know, Crafted are one of the sponsors of this podcast, and Crafted are a jewelry brand, and they make really meaningful pieces of jewelry. And this piece by Crafted, when I put it on, for me, it represents courage, it represents ambition, it represents being calm, and loving, and respectful, and nurturing, while also being the antithesis of that, seemingly the antithesis of that, which is, um, sometimes a little bit aggressive with my goals and determined and courageous and brave. The really wonderful thing about Crafted jewelry is it's super affordable, it looks amazing, the pieces hold tremendous meaning, and they are really well-made. Quick one from our longest-standing sponsor, Huel. I, I can't tell you over the last, I'd say over the last, really it's been about two and a half years, it was really, um, post-pandemic, how much my health has become such a huge priority in my life. Huel has been probably the most impo- important partner in my health journey because I've been in the boardrooms, I've been to their offices tens, and tens, and tens, and tens of times. I've seen how they make their decisions on nutrition. And that's why it's su- such a wonderful thing to be able to talk to this audience about a brand and a product that is so unbelievably linked to my values and the, and the, the place I am in my life of valuing the gym, exercise, movement, my mind, my breathing, and all of those things, and most importantly, my nutrition. That is the role Huel, Huel plays. And so, every time I get to read these ads out, I do it with such passion because I really, really believe every word I'm saying, and I absolutely love the brand. So, if you haven't already tried Huel and you've been resistant to my, my pestering, then give it a go and let me know how you get on.

16. 1:17:16 – 1:19:43

    The first domino that lead to your release

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:16

       What was the first domino that fell that ultimately led to your release?

    2. RRRaphael Rowe1:17:21

       I think it was the BBC Rough Justice program. So, this is a program that used to exist on primetime BBC One, and it was a program where journalists investigated potential miscarriages of justice. And I'd had journalists at this point already visit me in prison, and as you rightly say, when I made those calls or spoke to them when I shouldn't have spoke to them, I used to get punished for it because there was a policy, you know, where prisoners were not allowed to talk to journalists and tell journalists, um, their stories. Not necessarily because they were victims of a miscarriage of justice. It just wasn't allowed because it was something to protect victims. But it was really when, after journalists started to write stories about me, so my tac-, my tactic, if you like, of understanding journalism started to work. I was getting journalists coming to meet me that were starting to question the safety of my question, uh, my conviction, or at least writing stories about who I was, you know, 10 years on, y- you know, the person that was deemed a monster, the person that was supposed to be the leader of this M25 gang, et cetera. But I was sitting on the toilet in my cell in Kingston Prison and we had this little TV monitor. Mobile phones didn't still exist at this point, so there were TVs on these little kind of boxes, and there was one circling way, circulating around the prison, and it was, um, it was given to me that night because the BBC Rough Justice program were about to broadcast an hour-long investigation into my wrongful convictions. That was the first domino, I think. That was where a credible platform like the BBC, um, with serious journalists who knew their stuff, took these things serious, started to question m- my conviction. And that led to an avalanche of other media outlets taking an interest. But the application I told you about, that I tapped on my typewriter to European Court of Human Rights was, I think, the final straw, because when 21 judges at the European Court of Human Rights unanimously concluded that I was denied the right to a fair trial because the police had conspired with witnesses and suppressed evidence and there were questions about the identity of the true perpetrators, when those 21 judges told the British court system to relook at my conviction, that was the kind of final straw, and I knew then that my convictions were gonna be overturned.

17. 1:19:43 – 1:26:23

    The moment you found out you were being released

    1. RRRaphael Rowe1:19:43

Episode duration: 2:11:29