The Diary of a CEOI Won 11 World Titles Because They Said I Couldn't: Anna Hemmings MBE | E65
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,553 words- 0:00 – 1:25
Intro
- AHAnna Hemmings
All of that stuff prevents us from being at our best. We can only be truly great at what we do if we believe without doubt that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(Instrumental music) My guest today is an 11-time European world champion in her field, Anna Hemmings. She has a remarkable story. Not only is she this incredible elite athlete, not only did she get to the Olympics twice, but she's undergone some of the most inc- incredible mind-bending adversity to get there. She's now a coach, she's now an entrepreneur, she's now an incredible businesswoman, and she has a remarkable story to tell. She's also a mother, and a wife, and all of these things. And she's, she's really incredibly self-analytical and self-aware, and as her journey unfolded, and as she rose to the top of her career, she got news which all athletes must consider to be the worst news in the world. I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation. You're gonna get a tremendous amount of value. And I, I'll be honest, as a host, you ask the questions, but in this conversation, I had more realizations than pretty much any conversation I've had with a guest before. Without further ado. You can see I'm excited. My name is Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (Instrumental music)
- 1:25 – 7:21
Why Kayaking?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Kayaking. It's, um, it's not the s- the type of sport that a child would typically dream of getting into, so I guess my first question to you is, you became a world champion in kayaking, you reached the very sort of peak of your, your, your career in that sport. How did you get into kayaking?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, you're absolutely right-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... it wasn't something I was going, "Mom, Mom, please take me kayaking."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, I did lots of different sports as a child and I've loved sport. My mom was always trying to get my brother and I ... Uh, partly because we enjoyed sport, but sometimes just, you know, summer holidays, going to a week of tennis camp, to a week of basketball-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... a week of this, and it was just something that we tried. I loved being on the river. You know, the, the Thames in the summer is gorgeous, right? You know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
It's pretty miserable right now, um, but in the summer, it's lovely. But also the club was competitive. It was, it was Elmbridge Canoe Club, and it was probably one of the best clubs in the country at the time, so this is late '80s, and, and they were all about racing. They were all about competing, they were all about, you know, working your way up to the national championships, getting on the Great Britain team, going to the world championships, making the Olympics. That was their mission.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
It was to produce racing athletes, and that played into my competitive nature really well. So I think it was, one, I loved the, you know, the nature of the sport, but also I'd f- stumbled on a place where I could be competitive, I could race, I could, um, I had access to these brilliant coaches. I mean, uh, as time went on, I was there with ... At my club, there were people who were going off to the Olympic Games, who were going off to Seoul, um, Olympic Games. Then four years later, they're going off to, to Barcelona. And so I was surrounded by people who were going to world championships, achieving great things.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And making me realize that actually this is, this is possible.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I've got two questions there. The first is, what age were you at this point?
- AHAnna Hemmings
So, well, when I first stepped into the kayak that first summer, I was just, just under nine years old, and, and I can't say that at that age I was going, "Right, first day in the kayak, I'm gonna go to Olympics."
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're gonna go to the Olympics. Sure.
- AHAnna Hemmings
It wasn't that. And it w- probably wasn't until the following summer that I actually really started to train and go regularly and really get into it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, you, you said there as well about you were surrounded by people that had these big ambitions, that I'm guessing you probably never even considered, and I've, I think for ... I think that's such a valuable but also interesting lesson about, like, the company people keep generally. Because I can imagine that if you were in a different kayak school, w- uh, surrounded by different people that didn't have that level of aspiration, you maybe, and this is a presumption, you maybe wouldn't have believed that it was possible for you, is that right?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, so I ... Yes, I agree. Um, I also had discovered the Olympics probably around that time-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... and was inspired by the Olympics, and I do recall from that young age thinking just the Olympics is just this amazing-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Amazing. Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... event. So I think really early on, I had a dream about the Olympics, um, and I didn't know what sport that would be. I, uh ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you say you had a dream-
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... did you see yourself actually getting there in, in a sport someday?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, I did. I, I did watch the Olympics on television, um, I recall Los Angeles, I definitely recall watching, um, Seoul-
- 7:21 – 12:34
Why you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what are the things about you that, that maybe the few defining things that maybe other people don't, don't have (laughs) ? I always have to be careful with this question 'cause no one wants to blow their own trumpet, but I'm like, "Why you?" Like, why you and not someone else? We've talked about circumstance, but what are the things that you, within your character, got you there versus everyone else who might have quit or not tried as hard or wasn't as competitive or whatever?
- AHAnna Hemmings
That's difficult. Um, I definitely worked hard. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And lots of people work hard, right? And I worked really, really hard. And I think, I think one thing that made me even more determined was the... So, as I mentioned already, when people see a k- think of a kayaker, they often think of someone quite tall, yet, uh, they often think of a r- rower, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And, and would, and they're different sports, but most people think rower, and they think super tall, big. And, and I am a little bit small f- um, not typically the typical size for a kayaker. So, generally a little bit taller. Um, broader shoulders.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How high are you?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, I'm 5'6".
- SBSteven Bartlett
5'6", really nice.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, and I was, I was told regularly, "Too small." Um, my, one o- my coach actually, um, the club coach who was also the Great Britain team coach came up to me at a certain point, um, when I was really into the sport and said, "I just don't think you're ever gonna be big enough or strong enough to ever be a great kayaker."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Knowing that I was really tr- wanting to be a great kayaker. And, but also knowing that I did some other sports and was kinda going, "Maybe you should go and do those because I know you're, I just don't want you to, um, put all your heart into this and not succeed."
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did that feel?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Devastating, right? This is the sport that I'm falling in- fallen in love with, um, that I'm... This is probably, I'm about 12 years old. So, at this stage, I am training quite regularly. I've already been to the national championships. I've got my sights set on being in the Great Britain junior team. Devastating. But I think because of that, I, I just went, "Well, I'm, I'm just gonna keep going, gonna keep trying. I don't care what you've said. I don't care, you know... This is what I wanna do, um, I'm gonna give it a go, and I love it. And I think I'm doing okay at it right now, and I'm just gonna keep trying." What that did for me, was made me, made me work harder to prove that actually... Because I was told specifically, "You're not big enough, you're not strong enough." And yeah, I can't change my height, but I can become stronger.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And when I was at the peak of my career, I was the strongest girl in the gym in the Great Britain team.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've gotta admit, I saw the photos of you when you were-
- AHAnna Hemmings
I was bench pressing 100 kilos.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, you were strong (laughs) .
- AHAnna Hemmings
And so, and I, I was determined that no one's gonna tell me I'm not strong enough, because I, I can't change how tall I am, but I can change how strong I am.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why did it matter though? Why did it matter to be successful to you at this?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Mm, good question.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because a lot of, I, I think about that moment where someone tells you, "You're gonna fail," whatever. We've all had that moment. I think every successful person's had that moment. And people typically go one of two ways. They'll either go, "Oh, forget this then," you know, chuck it in, whatever.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, or they'll have the adverse effect. I almost don't know anybody that sits in the middle. You either get really in s- you get some kind of insecurity which takes you either one way, which either means that I'm gonna triple down and become obsessive, or I'm gonna avoid, um, avoid this at all costs. And I tend, uh, I tend to think that people who this really, really, really intrinsically matters to, for whatever reason, are the ones that go the positive way and use it as motivation.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, definitely. I'm, I loved winning (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, why? I loved the, I loved the joy of, I loved, I, I loved winning, but I also loved improvement, and I loved b- getting better. Quite often, I was told... So there, in kayaking, there's singles, doubles, fours, K1, K2, K4. And I was always told, you know, not big enough, not strong enough, but also definitely not big enough or strong enough to be in a K4.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Definitely not big enough to be in any of the crew boats. K2, K4, you need to be big and strong for those boats. And I probably shouldn't say this, but they, they used to, it felt to me, define big and strong as fat.
- 12:34 – 16:46
Healthy conflict within teams
- AHAnna Hemmings
me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I saw you talk about, uh, y- one of the things mentioned when I was doing a little bit of research on you is this idea of, like, healthy conflict in teams. Could you explain 'cause I- I've never heard of the term? I could imag- I could guess what it means, but I- I'd love you to explain what healthy con- conflict is in f- the term- terms of teams and-
- AHAnna Hemmings
So-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... performance.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... in a team, um, it starts with trust. If we don't have trust in a team, then we can't have healthy conflict. And healthy conflict is when we... Healthy debate. So this is about being able to know that all of the people in the team have the same objective, the same, um... We all g- got the same goal, we're trying to achieve the same thing, and you put forward an idea, and you s- and- and I d- I disagree with that idea. But if we don't have trust in the team, and you're the boss, then I'm not gonna put my hand up and say, "I disagree. I don't think we should do it like that. I think we should do it like this. Um, I think that this is the way we should go. I think we need to go down this route." We won't have that argument-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... an- an argument, debate, conflict, whatever you wanna call it, if there's not enough trust in the team, if you think that you're gonna be shot down, if you think you're not gonna be listened to. Um, and then the- the problem with that is that we then walk out of the room, and you've probably been in meetings, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Where people all sit in the room, and they all nod and go, "Yeah, brilliant, yeah, we're all gonna do that." And then they walk out of the room, and they go, "You got another thing coming if you think I'm gonna do that."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And they do that because they haven't had their say. They haven't been able to disagree and- and back and forth with their ideas and have that debate. Even if your idea isn't gone with, they at least want to feel like, "I've had my say-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... and I've had my opportunity to put forward my thoughts and my opinion and my suggestion. But actually, at the end of the day, this is the best idea for the team. Then fine, let's go with that. But at least I've had my opportunity to speak up."
- SBSteven Bartlett
And y- you talk about, you know, that sounds very sort of analogous to, like, relationships as well 'cause I think, you know, like, romantic relationships, right, people get a little bit peeved if they don't feel like they're being heard and had a chance to expr- express themselves. And also, when they have that, when they do express themselves, quite often it's perceived as in the name of being right or winning versus in the name of, like, progress or solving a problem. It's like me and you versus each other versus me and you versus the problem, right?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, how do you build the trust foundation though? Like, what's the- wh- how- how do you get a team to trust each other, and what are the... 'Cause if that's the foundation of healthy conflict, then, like, how do I, you know, what can I do to...
- AHAnna Hemmings
So one of the things that, that you can do, and this is what I, you know, I work with teams and leaders, and it's about vulnerability.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
It's about being, um, able to be vulnerable with your people, with your team, um, being able to admit weaknesses, admit mistakes. Um, it's about being able to say, "I- I don't know the answer."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
"I don't know where we're going." Or, "I- I'm not aware. I don't, you know, I don't know how to deal with this." Or, "I..." You know, just being able to be vulnerable. And, and that isn't always easy to do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
But when you start to do it, it gives permission to people... Uh, you know, if you... We do workshops where we're trying to build trust, and people always say, you know, at the end of the week, we might ask them something like, um, "Share something about a challenge from your childhood."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And when we, when people go around and they share, and we say, "What, what, what made it difficult or hard to do?" And they say, "Well, it made it easier when someone else went first," because once you've opened up, and you've bared yourself a little bit, then I feel, "Oh, well, he's done it then. It's okay. And no one judged him, and- and no one knocked him." And- and it's like, "Oh, okay, well, I can do it too."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And knowing that no one's... And when there is that trust, then we know that actually I'm not gonna be... That's not gonna be held against me. Whatever it is that I share, it's not gonna be held against me in the future.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
It's not gonna be, um, used, and I'm not gonna be shot down for it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You... A lot of this is, like, about the psychology of how
- 16:46 – 20:15
Key lessons from your psychologist
- SBSteven Bartlett
people think and operate. And I know that you spent some time working with a s- a psychologist or a sports psychologist when you were, um, uh, rising in your career. Um, I find that super fascinating. But I'd love to know what some of the key th- sort of lessons you learned about high performance or about, I guess, like, self-regulation, um, from that- that- that psychologist as it relates to becoming a world champion and, you know-
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... how did it-
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, yeah, so I did. I worked with a sports psychologist for- from the age of 16.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, really? Wow.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, so really young. And- and I think that, um, that was part of... And you talk about, um, you know, you asked me earlier what is it that made me a little bit different, or why did I succeed when others didn't? And I think part of that was, um... Ha- have you heard of growth mindset?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
So I think that my m- I didn't know about that then and neither did, you know, a lot of people. But my mum, um, was pretty quite growth mindset, and- and I- and instilled that quite a lot in me. For example, she... You know, this idea of just constant learning, constantly wanting to learn and be better and recognizing that we can be better all the time. We can improve, um, and looking outside for other areas of expertise, learning from other sectors and all of that. And she was the one that... You know, it wasn't like I was struggling with my mental strength and confidence or anything. It was just, "What else do we need to do? What- who else can help us? Who else can... What el-..." You know, we don't have all the answers. We wanna learn... We got- got- gotta learn from everyone. And I always encourage clients in the business world, you know, "Who, who can we constantly be learning from all the time?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
What was the-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are, like, the key things-
- AHAnna Hemmings
... some of the key things?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. And also, what are they, what are they trying to do? I, I, I guess they're trying to make you the best athlete you can be, but what are the things stopping you from being the best athlete you can be?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Ourselves.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Exactly.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Most of the time, we are the ones that get in our own way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How?
- AHAnna Hemmings
How do we get in our own way? The doubts, the, the, the think- the thoughts that we think, um, the doubt that that seeds, um, the nerves overcoming us, so, so, becoming so nervous that you become paralyzed almost, um, choking under pressure, focusing on the wrong things, not being confident in yourself, um, yeah, so many things that we do. Fear.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Doubt is a really interesting one. This feeling of fear-
- AHAnna Hemmings
Fear, doubt, anxiety, nerves, lack of confidence.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
All of that stuff prevents us from being at our best, and that essentially is what, is one of the, one of the big parts of what a sports psychologist is helping you to do. When an athlete ... when you line up and there's nine of you on the start line at the Olympic Games, all of them, all of those athletes have trained hard. They're all in amazing shape. They're all super fit. They're all, you know, strong. They're, you know, physically ... there's p- not a huge amount of difference between those nine, you know, think about it, uh, 100-meter sprint-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... at the Olympic Games. There's not a lot of difference between them. What is it that makes one of them win on the day? And not often ... it's often not the strongest, fastest, fittest who wins on the day. It's the one who's the strongest up here.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And I, I really believe that, that this is often what stops people from fulfilling their potential, and that's what I love helping-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Their mind.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... people with now. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, absolutely. Their mental game is what stops people from being the best they can be.
- 20:15 – 29:28
How do people overcome their limiting beliefs?
- SBSteven Bartlett
fear and doubt, like, lack of self-belief, not believing that you can or, or those things, th- that's probably one of the most common sort of mental games that, um, holds us back or, um, limits us from our full potential. Um, how does, how does one go about overcoming their own limiting beliefs about themself? Like, they think, "Okay. Well, no, I can't do that." Everybody thinks they can't do everything, it seems, these days. Like, I don't know why, maybe it's just because of what I do for a living, but, um, I'm just surrounded by an audience of people that have real limiting beliefs, um, and I, I wonder why, but I also wonder h- how you help them overcome their own limiting beliefs. Big question.
- AHAnna Hemmings
It's a huge question.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
How do we overcome our limiting beliefs? It's actually something that I work on a lot with ... when I'm coaching clients, um, identifying beliefs that are ... so, you know, we would start probably with, what are some of those limiting beliefs? And start to unpick, how are those beliefs, where, how are they serving ? I wouldn't be interested in necessarily where they've come from.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
I would be interested in, how are they serving us right now, and how are they not serving us? Because sometimes they're s- we're believing them because they're serving us for a purpose, they're helping us in some way, but, uh, oft- more often than not, those beliefs won't be serving us.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, so starting to unpick that, um, you know, almost like, what are the pros and cons of having this belief here-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... um, right now, that I can't achieve this? Or that ... one of my limiting beliefs was that I'm not very good at sales, um, you know, I was, I had to, I have to, you know, I've run a training consultancy, I have to, you know, find clients, and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, how ... you know. So what's a more helpful belief? Um, and starting to unpick, what would be a better way of seeing this? What are, what are my strengths?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, and what would be a new belief that would be ... serve me better?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think, uh, in, at some point in your journey, you ... probably not at one particular moment, but gradually, I imagine you started to build evidence within yourself that you could be a great kayaker. And I imagine that was over a long period of time, probably. There wasn't one day where you woke up and thought, "Fuck, shit, I'm good." Right?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, exactly. And I think, um, that is a big part of where we get our confidence from, is like our past experiences, yeah?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
So whenever we do something, we, we start to build a bank of memories-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... and when we're, uh, the next situation that is similar, we can choose to draw on the bank of negative experiences-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... where we cocked it up-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... or we can choose to draw on, on the bank of positive experiences where we succeeded and we did-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... it really well. And the trick is to ... and, you know, if we, if we ... and if we're not conscious about it, chances are we might pick the experience of when we failed, and then that's when we start to regurgitate all those thoughts and feelings of embarrassment and anxiety-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... and nerves, and, and that doesn't help us.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's, like, s- that r- probably would then hinder performance-
- AHAnna Hemmings
Absolutely.
- 29:28 – 34:16
What do you think about this idea of labels?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you think about this idea of like labeling yourself and your line of work, and the, the broader labels we give ourselves, even if it's just like bad salesman? You talked about that being one of your, like, previous l- sort of limiting beliefs or labels, um.
- AHAnna Hemmings
I think they're not helpful, and I think it's really important that we're aware of those labels that we're giving ourselves, and awareness is the first step, right? We can't change it if we don't notice it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... and so we need to notice the, the label in the first place, and then ag- It's a bit, you know, it's like, it's a limiting belief really, isn't it?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, and so, is that label serving me?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Is it helping me achieve my end goal?
- SBSteven Bartlett
It feels like it sometimes because it's making me fit in and it's giving me comfort. So I see this a lot with people that will say, "I am a..." In my case, I'm just gonna use my case, "I am a social media CEO and I..." So I've been a social media CEO for 10 years. It g- gives me some kind of like community to be part of. It gives me a sense of identity. But at the same time, it stops me from being all that I can be, and this is one thing I, I was going over in my book is like now I've left my company, it's so tempting to just start another social media business. But like, there's so much more I can do, and so what the... I'm asking you this question 'cause I'm in the, the midst of really thinking about it is like...How do I just resist my labels and be a, a fucking DJ? I'm doing, I'm doing this big theatrical show and working in biotech and, um, I don't know, I just... This idea of, like, liberating yourself from your own labels has been super relevant to me. Um...
- AHAnna Hemmings
I think that, um, it, it becomes your identity-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... is, is a bigger part of the problem.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
You know, it's like when an athlete retires from sport, it took me and it still (laughs) takes me, I catch myself saying, you know, "I'm, I'm an athlete, I'm not a business person."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And I go, oh, I, um, you know, I don't have a background in business, yet I've been running a business for 11 years and I was a professional athlete for 15 years. So it's almost this... You know, I have almost the same amount of experience in business as I do in, in sport, yet I labeled myself for so long and I... That became my identity. And your identity is CEO of a social media company. And so, that's who I am and it's hard to let go of that because it's part of who I am.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Comfort. It was comfortable.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And it's comfortable, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. It makes sense.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And, and you know, you know who that person is-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... what the behavior of that person's like, and, and you're stepping into a new role that, "What does this new person look like?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
But how rewarding has that been for you to kind of, I guess, reinvent yourself from being an athlete to now being an entrepreneur and a business person? Was it worth it? That's what I'm saying, was it worth it to step out of that label?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, totally. And, and we should all have multiple careers.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, and I think as time... You know, as we're living longer and longer, we all will have multiple careers, and I think we need to find the courage to step into new careers all the time and reinvent and, and just recognize that there, there's so many skills that we can transfer-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... from that other career, label, identity, and bring into the next one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And that's what will allow us to succeed into the next one. And recognizing that we're never gonna grow-
- 34:16 – 37:05
Your process of visualisation
- AHAnna Hemmings
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's your process for visualization? And now, is it something that you do actively, you set time aside and do it, or is it just something that you naturally now do when you're pursuing a goal?
- AHAnna Hemmings
So, a little bit of both. As an athlete, it was definitely something that I would sit down, usually I'd be lying on my bed, I would have done some relaxation because the more we clear our mind and relax, the easier it is to visualize and to see really clearly. And so I would, it would be a conscious, "Right, I'm gonna spend the next 15 minutes or even two minutes or five minutes," or whatever time I had, "visualizing my next race and seeing myself execute that race plan as perfectly as I can, and in exactly the right way." And I would visualize everything from, um, if it was this, this, the Olympic discipline and we've got nine boats on a start line, I'm seeing my... I don't know which lane I'm gonna be in when it comes to race day, so I'm seeing myself race in every lane. I'm seeing myself with, with a headwind, with a tailwind, with it raining. I'm seeing myself cock up the start because that might happen, but then I just gonna recover from it, and I'm gonna see myself recover and I'm gonna see myself win from behind, I'm gonna see myself win from the front. I'm gonna see... Imagine, you know, the start being delayed or it's a false start, you know, all these eventualities so that when it comes to the event, I'm prepared and it can just all un- unfold and I'm not fazed by anything that happens. But, but most importantly, I've seen it happen the way I want it to happen and then I believe that it can happen. And what visualization also does is when we, when we're visualizing a goal, for example, it starts to activate the subconscious to generate creative ideas about how we can achieve our goal. It's, it's, it's mind... I don't know how it works and why it works, but it's mind-blowing and it does work and it, and it starts to, um, uh, get your brain to perceive and recognize the different, um, resources that you need to achieve your goal. It... It's like the law of attraction and it starts to activate that in your life and bring in the people, the resources, the environment, the circumstances that you need to achieve your goal. And so now, what do I do? I probably... I do spend some time consciously going like, "I'm just gonna spend two or three minutes visualizing my goal." I'm seeing it happen, I'm seeing...... it realize. Um, but then other times, I'm probably just, you know, driving in my car and subconsciously, you know, like daydreaming almost. But I think the, the conscious, "Right, I'm gonna visualize now," is really powerful because then you start to really ... It starts to ingrain in the subconscious.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, the law of attraction stuff,
- 37:05 – 43:38
Your discipline and how to apply it
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think sometimes it can take people one of two ways because I do believe in visualization. My visualizations over the years have been very, like, the daydreaming stuff, but then also when I was, like, really, really, really broke and living in Moss Side w- in like a boarded up house, I would frequently look at stuff that, in the future, I wanted. So I'd look at these, like, mansion houses and whatever. And that was me kind of just, um, setting my, I don't know, uh, trying to peer into my future life. The bit that I think sometimes gets lost when we talk about, like, the law of attraction, it's almost akin to, like, when you set off in the morning, you put your satnav in, and you say, "This is where I wanna go. I wanna go Tesco." But then if you don't, like, put the key in and put your foot down, you're just gonna be sat in your garage. And, but there's something about knowing where you wanna go and, as you say, like, almost programming your brain to ... trick your brain to think, to completely be convinced that you will get there, that I then ... That from my experience, then makes you take actions in that direction. So, like, I'm sure you then ... You visualized yourself as a world champion, but then you're like, you go in the gym, and you, you, you train like a world champion because y- that's where your ... that's your destination. And the, the, the, the, uh, the opposite is also true. Like, if you visualize yourself not being a world champion, what's the point, you know, you know? Um, so I ... My, my, my, my real question here is about all of the actions and the discipline it takes, especially as an athlete, to get you from where you are to that visualized destination. I'm really keen to hear about, like, the discipline, the consistency because you're in a physical, a very, very physical endurance race. And, you know, it's like, I think Muhammad Ali said, like, the, it's won in the gym, it's won in training, a lot of it. And we all struggle with that. We all struggle with, like, showing up on Monday when it's raining. So, like, what's the, what's the key there?
- AHAnna Hemmings
So I think, I think you're absolutely right. You know, when we visualize, it, it gives us the motivation to believe that it can happen.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And that's, that's at the core of it, because if we don't believe it can happen, then what's the point? And so yes, we absolutely have to take action, but we need the motivation to take action. I can't say that, you know, 100% of the days that I was training, I was, "Oh yeah, I can't wait to get out there-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
"... go training." It's probably freezing outside. It's like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh God, you're outside, yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... middle of winter.
- SBSteven Bartlett
On the water.
- AHAnna Hemmings
On the water, on the River Thames, and it's like ice.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, yeah, that wasn't appealing every day. Luckily, the funding came in, and we got to go travel and train in warmer climates-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AHAnna Hemmings
... in Florida and wherever else. Um, but yes, there's this, uh, you know, goal that's the World Championships, it's the Olympic Games, it's, uh, you know, those big dream goals, (clicks tongue) that are highly motivating. But on those day- every single day, I'd be lying if you, you know, if you could say that goal in four years time is what got me out of bed-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Of course.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... on that rainy, freezing cold, you know, January morning. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
But isn't that the answer then? Like, it was just take, like, do today.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Y- Well, yeah, so i- i- it's ... But, but also, um, I do a lot of work around intrinsic motivation and understanding what drives us.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And, and we're all, we all have different drivers, and unsurprisingly, one of my drivers is a sense of achievement.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And so m- my driver wasn't necessarily on that particular day, "Oh, I've gotta train really hard 'cause I wanna win the World Championships in two years time." My driver was probably more that my coach has set targets every month that throughout the winter f- s- you know, for five months of the winter, we would have targets every month. In the gym, there'd be certain exercises in the gym that we've gotta hit. Um, y- we would tests on. We would do time trials on running, in swimming, and on the water, um, so as part of our cardiovascular training. So, and for me, that was really, um ... I loved hitting those targets basically, that monthly, right, so if I do, and I know that if I do this training today, then I'm gonna get better. And I've got a test on the weekend, and I wanna hit that target.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
I wanna s- I wanna smash the target actually because, yeah, then there's a good chance I'm gonna win the World Championships. It's not just hitting the targets, I need to smash the targets. And so that sense of achievement, for me, was a big driver. For other people in my team, it might have been ... And on, actually on other days, it might have been, "Actually, I, I wanna get out and go train 'cause I wanna see my teammates 'cause we have a laugh, and there's banter, and it's fun, and, and I enjoy the connection and the sense of that being part of a team and the community and, and all of that." And so it's this, the affiliation that's driving me on some days. And, but for others, you know, I can think of some of the girls in my team, actually, a sense of recognition was a big driver, so needing that, you know, "Ah, today, you know, you worked really hard. You've, y- you know, you really put everything into that session." You know, that hearing that from the coach, or, you know, "Look how far you've come."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Or, "Look what you've, you know, the progress you've made," or so everyone ... And so when a coach can tap into that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... knowing what is it that's gonna get you out of bed today, that's when we start to get the best out of people or the best out of ourselves. And so when, you know, when I work with, with leaders, it's about what motivates and drives me intrinsically, not just the carrot and the pay s- pay slip and the promotion and, you know, a- and, and all of that, that's the external stuff, which isn't very sustainable.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
We need to know what drives us in, as individuals but also what drives our team-
- 43:38 – 50:34
How do you find what drives other people
- AHAnna Hemmings
That's what's really important to me. Or-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how do you find out what someone's driver, driver, drivers, or motivations, or intrinsic motivations are? Is there a, is there a system, or, like, a test, or?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, so I, uh, the work, um, there's some brilliant work from, um, a chap called Dean Spitzer, and he talks about super motivation and this idea that there is an, you know, we, there's intrinsic and there's ex- extrinsic motivation. So what, we use a diagnostic, actually, when I work with clients, and it will identi- it forces you to, to pick 'cause, you know, we all want, you know, maybe some recognition, or some achievement, or to feel like we're making a contribution, or to be with people, all of this, but it really forces you to identify what really is your big driver.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, so yeah, so I, I use that. But, I mean, I think when you talk to people, you can start to, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... the more you get to know someone and you ask them questions and you see the way they operate and, and you see them light up when they get certain feedback or when they're doing certain pieces of work, so we can start to get a feel for that just when we get to know people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, y- when, you know, I s- we, I asked you there about the, that, like, discipline and consistency, and what gets you up every day on, like, a m- rainy Tuesday or whatever, and it was interesting that, um, you, kind of, like, shortened your horizon or your sk- cur- like, people, I think people typically think they, they wanna get to the top of the mountain, so they think, "Okay, um, let's make a plan to get to the top of the mountain." But you were so focused on these, like, short-term, shorter goals, which meant th- that y- I guess, your progress, sorts of, almost, like, invisibly compounds, um, to get you to the top of the mountain. So instead of, like, we wanna get to staircase number 1,000, we're like, "Let's get 10, let's do 10 stairs today, and then 10 stairs tomorrow, and 10 stairs, and 10 stairs." And by the time you know it, you're at the top of the mountain, right?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, well, literally. I, I, um, four years ago, I climbed, um, Mount Tubkhul.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Of course you did. (laughs)
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, as you do. And, um, I, we went w- there was probably 10 of us in the group. One of them, one of the girls that was on the group was a friend of mine, and she had ... (laughs) I don't know why she joined the group, but she had a f- a fear of heights.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, god. (laughs)
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, and we're climbing a mountain, and it was fine for the first day and a half because it's just, like, a windy road. The morning of the summit, it's literally we're going up a s- we feel like we're going up a steep mountain, and you're, and there's boulders. And, and she literally cannot, she's so scared of heights, and she's like, "Anna, I can't do it. I can't do it." And eventually, I was like, "Julie, you just need to focus." She went, well, what her biggest fear, actually, was also getting down.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, h- c- looking down and thinking, "Shit, how, how, yeah, I might get ... But how the heck am I gonna get back down, because that looks really scary, and it's slippery, and there's, there's scree, so the, the ground is loose?" And I'm like, "Don't even think about that."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
"Right now, all you need to do is take one step at a time, one meter at a time. That's all I want you to focus on. And one meter, and one meter, and one meter, and we'll figure out the rest. And you might not even get to the top. Who knows? You might, you might not. We might stop, but just do one meter at a time, and then we'll figure out the down bit, and we'll take it one step at a time on the way down."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Because that's all we can do, right, in that moment, is take one step at a time. And it's the same whether it's a goal to achieve, you know, X turnover in a business, or this many sales, or whatever the business is, or whatever walk of life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yes, we need to know the end goal, but actually, we just need to focus on the process.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause the summit looks scary, but one meter doesn't look scary.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And if you just do one meter at a time, because-
- AHAnna Hemmings
And also, you know, or it, whether it's the s- the fear, or, "Oh my God, it's so far away. We've got another four hours to go," it might be, you know, whatever it is, "Well, actually, let's just do the next five minutes, and let's see if that is feasible," because it probably is, right? "Can I do one more?" "Yeah." "Can you take this next step?" "Yeah, I can definitely take that next step." "Okay, can you take the next one?" "Can I take the next one?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And that feels really feasible.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You mentioned earlier getting, at the very beginning of this conversation, getting news, I think, when you were about 24, 25, that you had an illness called chronic fatigue syndrome. I'm now gonna be incredibly naive and narrow-minded. When I, when you read chronic f- fatigue syndrome, you think tiredness. That's what you think, right? But, um, but I know it's a lot more crippling than that, and I know that it's a lot more devastating, that especially for an athlete. Um, talk me through finding out you had this, this, this disorder, but also what it meant for your career and, uh, how it changed things. (paper rustling) Huel. This week, tons of you, hundreds of you have tagged me on Instagram and on LinkedIn and on Facebook as well with your Huel pictures. Some of you are trying Huel for the first time, and it's so wonderful to see because, as you know, I'm a very big advocate of Huel, not only because they sponsor this podcast, but because I've used Huel for the last three and a half years to, to make myself nutritionally complete at times when my career put a lot of pressure on me to, to speak on stage, or to travel, or to do business, so I'm a huge advocate of Huel. Um, if you guys watching h- this podcast on YouTube, you'll remember last week that I, I said I was gonna take off my top, um, and show you the results that I've seen for Huel. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do two things. The first thing is I'm gonna show you my before and after from March until about September time, right? So here's my before and after.And also, I mentioned in a previous episode that I've got a friend who's been a Hueligan for the last, I think, about the last two years as well. Um, he was a friend that really struggled with food, um, and had a wha- what one would class as an eating disorder. And he went from being a little bit chunky to having six-pack abs. I'm also going to take his top off so you guys can see that. (snaps fingers) If you're looking at your diet and seeing that you're a little bit nutritionally deficient in any way, and you do want to give it a try, let me know how you get on. DM me on Instagram, tag me on Instagram so I can share the photo, but let me know how you get on. (paper rustles) I'm gonna tell you a secret. For the past five years, while building Social Chain into a 700-person global social media powerhouse, I've been using a service that I've never really mentioned. Some of you might know that service. It's called Fiverr, F-I-V-E-R-R. It's my little secret. If I've ever had a project where I've needed affordable, skilled freelancers to help me, whether it's building a social media application that made my company $3 million pounds, or just a video I needed editing, or help making a logo or making a website, I've used Fiverr. Now that my secret's out the bag, here's what I'm going to do for you. If there's a freelance service you need or a project you need help with, a logo, a website, a voiceover, a video you need made, anything at all, go to fiverr.com/ceo. I'll put the link in the description. That's fiverr.com/ceo. Message me the service you want from the website, and every single week, I'll personally send you the credit to your Fiverr account so that you can get that project done. Thank you to Fiverr for the sponsorship and for supporting entrepreneurs and freelancers around the world. I'm looking forward to all of your messages.
- 50:34 – 1:03:17
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
- SBSteven Bartlett
(paper rustles) Talk me through finding out you have this, this, this disorder, but also what it meant for your career and, uh, how it changed things.
- AHAnna Hemmings
So yeah, I, e- like you say, was 25, 26 when I was, uh, diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. And yes, it's more than just fatigue. Um, it's not just that I'm tired today.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
It's being devoid of energy, exhausted al- almost on a permanent basis. Um, it also, for me, included muscle pain to the point where the m- my muscles were... Uh, sorry, muscle ache to the point where it was painful, to the point where I couldn't stand in the shower and hold my hands up here to wash my hair for more than 10 seconds because it was too painful. Um, some people have symptoms, I didn't get this so much, but sort of, you know, like can't concentrate, can't focus, brain fog. Um, some people are actually bedridden. Um, some people are actually in a wheelchair. Um, luckily, I wasn't as bad as that, but I was bad to the point where, yeah, I couldn't, I, I couldn't be in my kayak paddling for more than 10 minutes at a very light, gentle walk-type pace. Having gone from winning world championships for two and a half hours at a very high pace-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... to can't get my hands, hold my hands up here. I, I was literally two months earlier able to rattle off 100 press-ups in one go, and then can't hold my hands up here for more than 10 seconds. So that's the s- that's the physical element.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And that's only the physical element. But the mental and emotional battle was just as challenging because you can't, you can't see it. So it's not... You know, I, I was, got frustrated to the point where I actually wished that my skin was covered in spots so that people could see that there was something wrong with me and could understand that I was going through something, that I was in pain, that I was, you know, unwell. But I looked fine. So I got diagnosed with the illness in 2003, uh, beginning of the season, it was like April. And then, so following year is coming up to the Olympics 2004. So I'm training for the Olympics or wanting to be training. So six months later, it was only six months later that they actually diagnosed it because it takes six months for them to eliminate everything else and go, "Oh, this is fatigue that's been going on for more than six months. Therefore, you have chronic fatigue syndrome." And I ret- I went off to Florida, um, and the sports team doctor was saying, "Right, you need to do this graded return to exercise." They think it, they originally, and they still thought it was overtraining.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, really?
- AHAnna Hemmings
That's the immediate assumption, right? Athlete's tired, muscle ache, must be overtrained. Um, so they diagnose you, uh, w- they, um, offered me this program of, "Right, g- gently build up your return to sport. Um, so start with 10 minutes at a heart rate of 115." I can't remember. "And then f- 15 minutes at 115, and then 20 minutes, and 30 minutes. And when you can get to 40 minutes, then we can go up to 120 heart rate," and, and so on, and so on. And so I went, uh, my, my training group and my coach were all in Florida, so I went out to Florida to train. And, and I just couldn't get past 20 minutes. Um, and so I went out to, I went to see a doctor in Florida. And the doctor, he ran some blood tests, and basically, like, I still looked like an athlete. I'm still pretty, I'm muscly, I'm fit, I'm lean. I'm in Florida, I've got a tan. And he basically looked at me and said, "Well, we ran all the blood tests. There's nothing coming up. Nothing's, there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with you. You look really fit and well. I think you're fine." And so that just, this frustration of, "I can't see it, and therefore there must be nothing wrong." You know, it's this mental health, right? You know, y- people who are suffering with depression, or anxiety, or whatever it is, we can't see it. And so we don't know it, and then we don't understand it. And so the mental and emotional battle was really challenging. And, um, even people in my sport, not understanding, "What's wrong with Anna? Oh, she, she, she can't cope with it anymore. Well, she's too lazy to train." Or whatever they're saying, all these things. And, and that's hard. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did it make you feel?
- AHAnna Hemmings
So in the beginning, um, g- uh, frustrated, devastated, confused, um, sad, uh, lonely, um, so many different things. And I...... frustrated because also, we didn't really know what it was, and the doctor's saying it's over-training. And actually, when I reflect on the previous two years, I'd had episodes of fatigue, which I now know were episodes of that same illness, but that only lasted for two weeks or three weeks, or six weeks. And I would stop training, or I'd really cut back on training, and then I'd be able to come back and I'd be fine again. And, and so I only know that it was... I, I knew in my heart when I went to see the team doctor that one day, and I remember it, that it wasn't over-training because for six months, I had been doing less training than everyone else in my group. "I can't be over-trained (laughs) I'm doing less than everyone else," 'cause we were so conscious of this, "Oh, Anna's over-training," that I wasn't, I was n- I was just, was not over-training. And the doctor's like, "Oh, you've over-trained." And I was like, "Jesus." And I just, and then that was it. I didn't train again for 18 months. Um, and I did, I did, I, after working with the sport- the team doctor, I went to other doctors. I tried conventional medicine, I tried alternative therapies, and, and nothing was working. And that was the, the hardest part as well was that, one, you can't really tell me what's wrong with me. And two, you can't tell me how to deal with this. And, and then, you know, I went to see one doctor and he said, basically, "There's no cure. There's no treatment. And you're, don't, don't, don't think you're ever gonna get back in a kayak. You're never g- well, you might get back in a kayak, but you're never gonna race at that highest level. You won't race again." So that was, that was a pretty big moment. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
He said that to you?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah. And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
How was that to hear?
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah, just, like, this is, this is my, you know, this is my identity. (laughs) This is who I am. This is my life. This is, this is my career. I still have ambitions left to fulfill. And I don't, I don't want something like this to end my career. I want to end it on my terms, when I choose that I'm done. Um, and so, yeah, that summer, watching the Olympic Games on the telly in Athens, um, it was devastating. And, but I guess I always believed that I would find a way. I, I was like, "There has to be a solution to this. There has to be a way out." Um, and I, I guess that I'm a very optimistic person, and very much a possibility... possibilitarian? I call it that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AHAnna Hemmings
I don't know if that's a word.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Optimistic. (laughs)
- AHAnna Hemmings
But believing that it, it's possible-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... that there is a way out. There has to be a way out. And, and I guess I didn't know that whether there was, but I just had to b- I had to believe that there was.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And I had to believe that I would get out of this, and that I would find a way back and that I would get back to training and racing one day. Otherwise, what hope, what, what did I have? Uh, not that my life would be over if I couldn't paddle. But just that's what, that belief, I think, is what kept me going, um, in that, in that time. And, and eventually, to cut a long story short, I did find a, a treatment for the illness, and I did recover, and I did get back. Um, but it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do they-
- AHAnna Hemmings
... wasn't an easy journey.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do they... Before we get into what the treatment was and your recovery, do they know what's happening to you, like, physiologically when you have, um, that disorder? Have they, do they know what, what's causing your phy- your-
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, the problem is, is that there are many different schools of thought.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And it depends who you talk to, and it depends which doctor, um, and what clinical or s- study, or what study you read, or-
- 1:03:17 – 1:09:26
Benefits of being vulnerable
- AHAnna Hemmings
You know, we talked about trust earlier.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um, you can't build trust and relationships unless you open up, unless you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, so true, yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... express vulnerability.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So true. I think that's one of the reasons I struggle with my relationships, my romantic relationships, is because I bring the tough guy thing into my (laughs) into, like, my personal life sometimes. And, um, it doesn't ever help. And I think the, the progress I've made actually in my personal relationships, as you've said, has been by, like, admitting more that I'm wrong and, like, saying how I feel (laughs) and being like, "I..." You know what I mean? And, uh, that's, but that's not conducive with the whole, like, resilient, tough guy business thing that I have to do.
- AHAnna Hemmings
I don't, I don't-
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know?
- AHAnna Hemmings
... think they're mutually exclusive.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It, it doesn't feel like they are, but you're right. Uh, like, they're definitely not mutually exclusive, but, um, they're two different people trying to achieve two different objectives. In business, there's a sense of like, you know, you've gotta really, like, stand up for yourself. You've gotta be ruthless to some degree in some cer- situations, especially when you're dealing with teams, and there's bullshit landing on your desk every day, and you're getting horrible, horrible news, and you have to put on a brave face for your team 'cause you just found out that your whole server's been hacked, and they've basically, uh, half of them have lost their jobs or the pandemic has just struck. And then going, like, "Ugh, I know what you're saying." Do you think it's certain moments? I think, I'm thinking of one particular moment, which I always talk about in this podcast, where, on the way to work, I got this news that we'd been hacked, and I've got a ton, I've got 100 or 200 people sat in the office in front of me that are now looking through the window and thinking, "What's going on?" And my, my need to be composed and optimistic at a time when I probably was panicking a little bit inside, I think got us through. I think if I'd walked out there and been like, "Listen, guys, I am sh- shit, you know (laughs) here," like, it might have wrought... But in my personal life, it's very important to have that intimacy and vulnerability.
- AHAnna Hemmings
I think there's, um, a balance actually.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And I think in business, you are... if you are able to be a little bit vulnerable, and I'm not saying vulnerable to the point where you look really weak, but vulnerable to the point where you're honest-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... and you might go, "Do you know what? Shit's happened. And actually, I'm a little bit scared, but we're gonna find a way. And I don't know how we're gonna f- figure this out right now. And, and it's not great, um, but, you know, it's about having confidence in who I am and what we do, and confident in the people around us-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... and my team, and you lot, and all of us, that we're gonna figure this out."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
So there's a balance there between, "I'm human."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
"And yes, I'm scared like you because this is shit."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
"And this is a bad situation that we didn't want to happen." And let's admit that. Let's put that on the table and be honest about it, because people... We build trust with people when we're honest and we show a little bit of vulnerability-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... and humanity, and that's how we build relationships. Because otherwise, we're just putting up this tough guy front all the time who doesn't have any feelings, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can't relate to that, can't resonate, can't connect.
- AHAnna Hemmings
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- 1:09:26 – 1:13:32
Overcoming your disorder
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. So going back to your... I wanna know, so what exactly did you do in terms of, you know, um, daily to overcome your disorder? Was it, was there... You addressed... you know, you started expressing yourself more. Was there anything you ha- you had to take, or was there, uh, you know-
- AHAnna Hemmings
No. So there was no medicine, there was no pill, there was no massage treatment.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- AHAnna Hemmings
There was nothing like that. It purely is a recognition that the mind and the body are connected, and therefore, I needed to figure out what these triggers are. One of... So to give you a bit of context, so, um, I, leading up to the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games, I left the coach that I was working with that had got me to become a world champion, but I now wanted to go and race at the Olympic Games, and he was very much a marathon coach and, and encouraged me to go find somebody who really specialized in sprint racing. So I ended up, for three years, having a coach who was based in another country, and I would go and train with them sometimes, and then I would come back to the UK, and I would train on my own. And he would send me the training program, we'd speak on the phone, he'd email it to me, I'd do the training. And I would basically train a lot of the... most days. I would turn up to the training, do the training, and I'm motivated enough to be able to push myself really hard to... I had no problem with training on my own in the sense that I... you know, some people can't push themselves hard enough, haven't got the motivation to turn up and do that. But the problem with that was that I, and I didn't realize this at the time, I was isolating myself, and I think I, um... So I'd, I'd, I wasn't enga- there was my club. I was at my club, but I would turn up to my club, and they'd all go off and train separately, and I'd train on my own, and then I'd often turn up, uh, at times when they weren't there. I wouldn't engage with the British team really much, and I was just ice- more and more isolating myself, and then getting frustrated 'cause I didn't have a coach who was by my side, and I thought that all I needed to do was train hard. I thought... And the reason I stuck with this coach was 'cause he was a great coach, and I thought the training program was brilliant-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... and I thought all I need to do is follow a great training program and work really hard, and I thought that was enough. And actually, I didn't... I'm not a robot, and I needed, I needed human connection, and I needed emotional support, and I needed a place to vent, and I needed to be able to show frustration. And when the training was hard or when I was exhausted and had no one to even talk to on the riverside bank, you know, I'm talking to the ducks. (laughs) You know? It's like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AHAnna Hemmings
... I had no outlet for my emotions. I had no... And I didn't even speak up and tell my coach that I was frustrated that he sent me the program only two minutes before I needed to be at the training, y- you know, I was gonna train and... 'Cause there's this five-hour time difference, and, and I just was probably quite unhappy, but didn't realize, because I was so focused on the goal, and the end goal, and gotta train hard, and this is what it takes, that I was so not in tune with what was going on emotionally, and I was at my best when I was training in a group environment with a coach by my side every day supporting me. Other... I- I'm an extrovert.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
I get my energy from other people, and there I was spending my days alone doing this really intense training program on my own. That is not conducive to a really good mental and emotional health, and so it was really clear that that was not-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, that was not-
- AHAnna Hemmings
... that wasn't sustainable, and that was why I had these periods of, oh, yeah, three weeks falling apart, and I'd have to stop, and, um, and then when I'd get back to an environment that was w- I was happy in, it was all good, and I would train hard, and I'd be amazing, and I'm full of energy, and, and I, and I had my best year, and then that would change, and the environment would change. And so my environment, and the people around me, and my emotional happiness was, was some of the things that I needed to get a grip on.
- 1:13:32 – 1:21:34
The importance of connection
- AHAnna Hemmings
Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so fascinating that people really un- uh, underestimate the value of human connection, but also the environment we're operating in, like hugely. I, I had a conversation with a friend, and he'll be listening to this podcast 'cause he's never ever missed one, um-... he's, he was working at our, my old company, um, Social Chain, for many years, and he's, he's gone freelance, and he was talking a little bit about feeling a bit burnt out. He came to my house and he was saying, "I feel a bit burnt out. I'm lacking motivation in the mornings," and things like that. And when I was a freelancer, before I started the company and had 700 people around me all day, I just couldn't find the motivation to, like, go to my laptop and send the emails. But the minute I was in that environment, where we had this kind of, like, shared goal, and I had feedback and community, my motivation was higher than anyone's in the world. But I don't think people appreciate enough the, the importance of the environment and the community that you're operating in. And, uh, I think there's a certain thing which people don't talk about, which I, I've talked about on this podcast a couple of weeks ago, which was this idea of, like, freelance depression. And even, like, you're seeing with the world now, everyone working remotely, having to get up and, like, now you're realizing what your job actually is. Because before, it could've been, like, seeing Susannah and hearing about her weekend and engaging with the office dogs and this and the sense of community. You've kind of conflated them with your tasks at work, and now it's just your tasks.
Episode duration: 1:25:14
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode GGTtZpswgfg
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome