Jada Pinkett Smith: “I Just wanted to stay alive until 4pm!”

Jada Pinkett Smith 0:00 I was in a cycle of self-hatred, and it was just a really dark time. I want out, and I knew I had to make it look like an accident, 'cause I did not want my kids to think that I had committed su... su... Please welcome Jada Pinkett

Jada Pinkett Smith 0:21 Smith.

Steven Bartlett 0:22 Jada, I knew you as a Hollywood actress. I never knew you were the daughter of two drug-addicted parents and a teenage drug dealer yourself on the streets of Baltimore.

Jada Pinkett Smith 0:31 I really thought I was gonna be the next big time female drug dealer. I was absolutely fearless. But getting two 9mm's pointed at you?

Steven Bartlett 0:38 They pointed two guns at you?

Jada Pinkett Smith 0:40 That's a big wake-up call.

Steven Bartlett 0:42 What happened?

Jada Pinkett Smith 0:43 Somebody set me up. And then-

Steven Bartlett 0:44 (dramatic music playing)

Jada Pinkett Smith 0:45 ... I had to always have this tough exterior. Now-

Steven Bartlett 0:49 (dramatic music playing)

Jada Pinkett Smith 0:49 ... as I'm dismantling my defenses, I'm in a really raw place.

Steven Bartlett 0:54 The holy slap, what happened?

Jada Pinkett Smith 0:56 I knew I was gonna get blame, but like it was insane.

Steven Bartlett 0:59 You say protection is your love language. Did you see that as a act of love? The entanglement conversation?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:06 We broke up. And then what did you do, Jada? My mother, my kids, they were like, "How could you do this?"

Steven Bartlett 1:13 Do you regret putting that out?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14 Honestly- (music crescendos)

Steven Bartlett 1:16 I've got this wonderful picture that I found.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:18 Oh, I know that picture. Do you know why this is relevant?

Steven Bartlett 1:21 I let it go back to when we played as kids, but things changed.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:24 Yeah. I lost them back to back.

Steven Bartlett 1:28 That's the way it is. I just wanna start this episode with a message of thanks. A thank you to everybody that tunes in to listen to this podcast. By doing so, you've enabled me to live out my dream, but also for many members of our team to live out their dreams too. It's one of the greatest privileges I could never have dreamed of or imagined in my life, to get to do this, to get to learn from these people, to get to have these conversations, to get to interrogate them from a very selfish perspective, trying to solve problems I have in my life. So, I feel like I owe you a huge thank you for being here and for listening to these episodes and for making this platform what it is. Can I ask you a favor? I can't tell you how much, um, you can change the course of this podcast, the, the, the course of the guests we're able to invite to the show, and to the course of everything that we do here just by doing one simple thing. And that simple thing is hitting that subscribe button. Helps this channel more than I could ever explain. The guests on this platform are incredible because so many of you have hit that button. And I know when we think about what we wanna do together over the next year on this show, a lot of it is gonna be fueled by the amount of you that are subscribed and that tune into this show every week. So, thank you. Let's keep doing this. And I can't wait to see what this year brings for this show, for us as a community, and for this platform. (dramatic music) Jada?

Jada Pinkett Smith 2:47 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 2:48 I always believe that in order to understand someone, you have to understand their context. And having read through the entirety of your book, there was this line that stood out to me, which I think might be,

Steven Bartlett 3:02 might summarize the most important part of your earliest context, which is, "When I go in search of the origins of my broken heart, it is the sense of not being the priority to the two people who gave me life that creates a fracture in my feeling of worth."

Jada Pinkett Smith 3:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:18 Why did you write that line?

Jada Pinkett Smith 3:21 Because it's true, you know? It's like our parents are like our first mirrors. And so, my parents were really young when they had me. I mean, my mom was 17, right? 17, 18. She was 17 when she was pregnant. I think she was 18 by the time she had me. So, youth on top of addiction. And I just realized, you know, as I was going through my life and different therapeutic settings, I was like, "Oh, wow, like the first mirror I had was kind of nonexistent in a way." Because drugs were my parents' priority, you know, during my upbringing. And so, I didn't really get the reflection of feeling like a priority to the people who brought me into the world. Now, thank goodness my grandmother came into the picture, you know? And she really, she was a, a beautiful, powerful mirror for me, that, you know, even to my, you know... It's still a mirror for me to this day, um, where I could see myself. I could see the beauty of myself. I could see my gifts and my talents was through her and what she was reflecting back to me. But, um, I think it's important that... I think it's important, if it's possible, for children to feel that sense of, um, that sense of importance, that sense of priority from their parents.

Steven Bartlett 5:05 Uh, I had an air of sort of loneliness as I read through the pages. This kind of lonely young girl who was searching to be recognized and loved and to, someone to sort of hold her hand and guide her through those early years. And other than in your grandmother's garden and with your grandmother, it, it felt like that place of home was never, was never really there.

Jada Pinkett Smith 5:29 Yeah, I definitely had it with my grandmother. And then once she passed, that's when I took to the streets to like figure out finding my home, finding my tribe, finding my power, finding my identity, finding my purpose, finding my worth. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:53 Your dad-

Jada Pinkett Smith 5:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:55 ... Rob.

Jada Pinkett Smith 5:56 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 5:58 He, um, he took you for a walk one day and explained to you why he couldn't be your father.

Jada Pinkett Smith 6:04 He did. I was seven and, um, he just said, he said, "Look, I'm a, I'm an addict and a criminal and I can't be your father." And I was like... Now mind you, he hadn't really been in my life that much anyway. I didn't really know... He wasn't present in my, in my life enough for me to even know what it was like to have a father. But what I did appreciate in that moment was like, "Wow, just thank you. Thank you for, like, being honest." Now, I didn't realize at that time, because I was so young, how that would affect my relationships with men ongoing, you know, as an adult woman. Um, but yeah, in that moment, I was just like, "Thank you. Somebody is, like, being honest with me. I'm not crazy. Something is absolutely not right here and he's letting me know what that is." And he's saying, "Hey, I'm gonna keep my distance." You know.

Steven Bartlett 7:07 10 years old, 12, 13 years old, what does Jada think she's gonna be when she grows up?

Jada Pinkett Smith 7:13 At 10, 11, 12, 13, I- I definitely was like, I wanted to be an artist. Definitely wanted to be an actress.

Steven Bartlett 7:23 You wanted to be an actress?

Jada Pinkett Smith 7:24 Yeah, I did. I did. I wanted to be an actress. I started very young. I was doing theater. Um, I think my first professional gig was, like, seven years old as one of Madame Bonbon's children in The Nutcracker. Um, and then I was in, you know, different theatrical programs in the summertime and what have you, and then the, uh, when I got the opportunity to join TWIGS, which prepared you for Baltimore School for the Arts, I joined that after-school program. So arts has always been a big part of my life.

Steven Bartlett 8:02 Do you know why? 'Cause whe- as I read through those early years of your life, it seemed that acting was doing something, the, the performance, the being on stage, the, the validation I think it was giving you was doing something for you that it might not have done for someone else who hadn't walked the steps you'd walked up until that point.

Jada Pinkett Smith 8:21 The validation, but also an outlet. It was a real outlet for me, where I was able to express certain feelings that I didn't feel like I had the permission to express at home. Um, and, um, it was a huge... it was a huge outlet for me in that way. I mean, to the point that (laughs) my theater teachers would often tell me, um, you know, they'd try to steer me into, like, more... "Why don't you try more comedic roles?" You know, I was always going for the very dramatic, very highly emotional, you know, uh, roles. Um, and my... I just remember my theater teachers always trying to guide me into diversifying (laughs) the monologues that I would choose, uh, for, for my pieces to work on in class.

Steven Bartlett 9:20 I read, um, I read some books, I think one of them was called The Body Holds the Score-

Jada Pinkett Smith 9:24 Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 9:25 ... which talks about the role that acting can play as sort of a therapy.

Jada Pinkett Smith 9:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:29 And it's so... It seems to not be a coincidence that the amount of actors I've sat here and spoke with who have pretty, um, unthinkable early childhood experiences, domestic violence in the home, et cetera, that then find acting as an outlet for a form of escapism, almost escaping their identity, embodying a different role.

Jada Pinkett Smith 9:49 Absolutely. Totally agree. Totally agree.

Steven Bartlett 9:54 As I read it in your story, I was like, "Not another one." (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 9:57 (laughs) Yes, another one. It's classic. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:03 And I- I reflect on some of the words you wrote in the early part of the book where you're talking about your mother and your father-

Jada Pinkett Smith 10:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:11 ... there being domestic violence in the home at an early age, your mother running out of the house, dropping you on the floor because Rob had punched her.

Jada Pinkett Smith 10:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:20 I believe your father had punched her.

Jada Pinkett Smith 10:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:22 The- these are stories I guess you've heard after the fact from your mother.

Jada Pinkett Smith 10:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:29 But I guess you believe those moments leave a mark.

Jada Pinkett Smith 10:32 Absolutely. I mean, my mother talks about it to this day, and will choke up. She'll, you know, cry. It's like, it's- it's... You don't get over things in the sense of, like, it's forgotten. You know, you learn to cope with it. You heal in a certain manner, but it still can leave a certain imprint upon you. Um, and even hearing those stories are not easy, you know, even as an adult, because she didn't really give me the details until I was... I mean, my kids were daggone near adults before she shared with me the level of violence that she dealt with with my dad.

Steven Bartlett 11:10 Did it help you understand yourself? Did it help you connect dots?

Jada Pinkett Smith 11:17 I don't know if it helped me understand myself as much as it helped me understand my mother, and then that helped me understand a lot of how her journey has imprinted upon me in a certain manner, you know? So I guess it does, if you t- you know, through, through my mother and her journey, it helped me understand her journey, which has affected me.

Steven Bartlett 11:44 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 11:44 So yeah, I guess you could say that it helped me understand myself more.

Steven Bartlett 11:49 I say that 'cause I sat with, um, you know Gabor Mate? Gabor, Gabor Mate?

Jada Pinkett Smith 11:52 Yeah, I do.

Steven Bartlett 11:53 The metaphor-

Jada Pinkett Smith 11:53 Yeah, yeah, yes.

Steven Bartlett 11:54 He was the, he's the person that opened my eyes to the fact that even the things that occurred when we are babies-

Jada Pinkett Smith 12:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:01 ... we interpret them to mean, um, certain things about ourselves. And he says babies are incredibly selfish, so for example, if the parents are arguing, the baby will interpret that as-

Jada Pinkett Smith 12:10 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 12:10 ... a reflection of them.

Jada Pinkett Smith 12:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 12:12 I think about the early contacts that I think I read about in your story, but also that appears in mine (clears throat) and how I interpreted that to mean that I wasn't enough in some way.

Jada Pinkett Smith 12:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:22 Um, which is a real through line throughout your story.

Jada Pinkett Smith 12:25 Yeah. For sure. Uh, and I think that probably is probably more subconscious, unconscious than that which the abuse of drugs and how that reflected to me that I wasn't worthy in a certain manner, that why is it that this particular substance has more power over, you know, has more attention, more power, more influence than me? To the point that your father will tell you, "I'm relinquishing my parental rights because I'd rather be a criminal and a drug addict than try to get my shit together for you," is the way I interpreted that. And at the same time, it was like, just thank you for being honest instead of sitting up here pretending like you're doing something different. Thank you. You know? Which a lot of people would do.

Steven Bartlett 13:31 Mm-hmm. Tony.

Jada Pinkett Smith 13:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 13:33 Was he your- he was your, your mother's first part- partner after Rob?

Jada Pinkett Smith 13:37 No. She- he was her first husband.

Steven Bartlett 13:41 First husband. Okay.

Jada Pinkett Smith 13:41 Yeah, after Rob.

Steven Bartlett 13:43 And he seemed to be a pretty solid-

Jada Pinkett Smith 13:44 He's a solid-

Steven Bartlett 13:45 ... father figure.

Jada Pinkett Smith 13:45 Yeah, he was. He was indeed.

Steven Bartlett 13:48 It's, uh, uh, y- this guy comes into your life and plays the role of a father, by all accounts.

Jada Pinkett Smith 13:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 13:54 He seems to do a pretty good job and seems to love on you in a way that is sufficient for a child. But then he too vanishes out of your life.

Jada Pinkett Smith 14:05 Makes a exit. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 14:07 Makes an exit.

Jada Pinkett Smith 14:08 Yeah, which I understand. You know, as an adult now, looking back and, and looking at the circumstances, you know, he did the best that he could. He's a man that was trying to get his life together and my mother was, was deep in her addiction. And this-

Steven Bartlett 14:24 To- addiction to?

Jada Pinkett Smith 14:25 Heroin at that time. And so you, you can't, you can't negotiate with that. It's either you wanna get help, you know, um, or you have to- sometimes you have to make clean breaks. I know that now as an adult and you don't always know how to play the middle, you know, and so I get it.

Steven Bartlett 14:53 What does that do to you as a young, a young woman who's trying to figure out what- where safety is?

Jada Pinkett Smith 14:57 It's devastating. It's devastating. I mean, I completely abandoned feeling like I could depend on anyone, which is why I just took to the streets. I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna figure out how to make money, gain power, and create a situation where I can protect myself and my mother and make sure just in case she doesn't make it, I'm gonna be okay."

Steven Bartlett 15:28 You take to the streets. When you say take to the streets, what do you mean by that?

Jada Pinkett Smith 15:32 When I would see, you know, the high rollers, the hustlers, I was like, "Oh, that's what I want." You know? I want to have the Mercedes, I wanna have big wads of cash in my pocket, I wanna have friends around me that will protect me, and I wanna be able to have security and stability created by my own hands. I don't wanna depend on anybody. Not only do I not

Jada Pinkett Smith 16:02 wanna depend on anybody, I can't depend on anyone. And so the streets, that's where I saw security because we didn't have doctors and lawyers, you know, to look upon. You know, like, that's the aspiration, right? Because in our neighborhoods, that's what we had. We had hustlers.

Steven Bartlett 16:29 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 16:29 Right? And they had the good life. So you could be a hustler or you could be a hustler's girlfriend. I wasn't trying to be the girl. Wasn't trying to be the girlfriend. And so I looked to, to that lifestyle to offer me the security that I didn't have at home. It was an opportunity for me to create that security that I didn't have at home.

Steven Bartlett 16:59 Security, protection, safety.

Jada Pinkett Smith 17:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:05 These are all words that appear over and over-

Jada Pinkett Smith 17:07 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 17:07 ... and over again (laughs) in your book. (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 17:11 I know, right? Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 17:14 From childhood to adulthood, those are the, the most-

Jada Pinkett Smith 17:16 That was it.

Steven Bartlett 17:17 ... recurring words. (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 17:18 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 17:19 And you, you found that security in part through a lifestyle of drug dealing yourself.

Jada Pinkett Smith 17:23 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:24 Um, which again, uh, I said to you before we started recording, Jada, that I knew of you as a Hollywood actress. You know, that's what I, that's what I knew of you of. I'm not someone that's hugely involved in media or TV or movies, so that's what I thought. I never in my life had I thought of you as the daughter of two, um, drug addicted parents who had chosen their addiction over you, and I never knew that you started dealing drugs when you were-

Jada Pinkett Smith 17:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:52 ... very, very young. Were you, were you not scared dealing drugs in Baltimore and... (sighs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 17:58 You, you don't have time to be scared. That environment was a war zone, right? And so it's like stuff was popping off all the time. So you just get used to a certain level of violence, you get used to a certain level of, um-... just vigilance because that's what you're given, so you just learn to adapt to that kind of environment. So the levels, what, what somebody might consider dangerous, for me, was just normal. It wasn't like, "Ooh, I'm going into something crazy here." You know? It's like, "Well, shit, everything's crazy. So what?" Right? So I look at it now and I go, "What in the world?" You know? But I have a- I'm living a different reality. In that time, when I was living that reality, that's what life was. And everybody, that's what we were all living.

Steven Bartlett 18:59 Were there moments that were wake-up calls?

Jada Pinkett Smith 19:04 Hell yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 19:05 When you were dealing drugs.

Jada Pinkett Smith 19:07 Listen, getting two 9mm's pointed at you at one time, and one to your head, that's a, that... You would think that's a big wake-up call.

Steven Bartlett 19:15 Jada, we don't all know what 9mm is. (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 19:17 Oh, you know I... (laughs) Guns, you know. It's two big guns, you know. Glocks.

Steven Bartlett 19:24 When did that happen?

Jada Pinkett Smith 19:25 Um, I had to be 17, 17, 17 years old because that was my senior year of high school.

Steven Bartlett 19:39 And what, what was the reason that someone pointed two guns at your head?

Jada Pinkett Smith 19:45 I was... I had, uh, posted up in this, in the projects, in this apartment on the bottom floor where I would sell drugs out of the window or through the door of that particular apartment, and somebody set me up. To make a long story short, somebody set me up and, um, as I was making the exchange through the door that had the chain on it, two guys from the side of the door, which I couldn't see 'cause I'm looking through the peephole, two guys from the side of the door come around and kick the door

Jada Pinkett Smith 20:21 in, and pull out guns, point them to me, and take all my money, my jewelry, and stash. And I was really lucky to make it out of that alive, for sure, because the person who led that robbery ended up killing two drug dealers, um, two weeks or a month after. Put them in a, uh, put them in a trunk, shot the trunk up and, uh, murdered two guys and, um, he ended up doing life for that. But, uh, I could tell as he was leaving, you know, y- it's so interesting when you're in moments like that. I can still see his eyes as he's leaving me and how he's making a choice in the moment of what he's gonna do with me, and by the grace of God, he left me there.

Steven Bartlett 21:29 Why?

Jada Pinkett Smith 21:30 Well, when, and of course, I, you know, my crazy self, because of who... Because of the protection that I was under at the time, I called that person and I was like, "I just got robbed." He knew exactly, he knew exactly. He's like, "I know who this is. Don't worry about anything." Um, and I was like, "I want my shit back." And so, (laughs) we actually, um... That person whose wing I was under, he made for a meeting, for us to meet in that area a couple of days later. He was like, "You're not gonna get your money back. You're not gonna get the drugs back, but maybe there might be some pieces of jewelry of yours that he'll, you know, he hasn't sold yet." And that's... He was exactly right. He had, you know, a couple chains, whatever, and I told... I asked him, I said, "You know, why'd you just leave me there?" Like, and he said, "You were too pretty." And that was the first time, and I talk about this in the book. That was the first time that I was like, "Well, maybe I am pretty because..." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 22:36 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 22:36 I was like, "Maybe I am pretty because..." You know, he... 'Cause this, this was a stone cold killer and I talk about even when I met him, how he looked like he had, he had never felt any kind of love in his life, and I'm just... I- I don't know what kind of crazy nut I was at that time. I was just so... All I could say is just out of my mind, like I was just in such an altered reality. I- I- I really thought I was gonna be the next queen pin, first of all. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 23:09 Again, a lot of people don't know what a queen pin is, Jada.

Jada Pinkett Smith 23:11 Yeah, well, you know, I thought I was gonna be the next, you know, like, big time female drug dealer, you know, and I really had... I- I was, I- I was crazy. I absolutely was just a nut because I had no fear whatsoever. I was absolutely fearless to be rolling with these wolves like this, and like it was nothing, like it was absolutely nothing. I think about that today, I think of my, my daughter. I'm like, "What the..." Like... I don't know. All I can... And that's when I know and I think back on everything that I've been through, I was like, "There is a God for sure." There's a God 'cause that dude, for me to even wanna see his face again was like, "I want my shit back," and he had it, he had it for me. He was like, "There you go." (laughs) You know? And so, um, but it prepared me for Hollywood. It prepared me. It prepared me big time.

Steven Bartlett 24:16 How?

Jada Pinkett Smith 24:17 It prepared me in a way because I was running with killers. That's- it's as simple as that, right? So the Hollywood flex...You know, dudes who were presenting themselves as, like, these powerful, you know, "If you don't do what I say..." Like, bruh, honestly, it- it- it just didn't resonate that way for me. I just looked at it, I looked at all of that as just kinda, like, puppy play.

Steven Bartlett 24:52 It didn't resonate with you, but from the words you describe in your book about how you were received in Hollywood, it appears that Hol- you didn't resonate with Hollywood either.

Jada Pinkett Smith 25:03 (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:03 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 25:03 For a while I did not, yeah, for a minute.

Steven Bartlett 25:06 This rough around the edges.

Jada Pinkett Smith 25:07 Rough around the edges, yeah. Because, I mean, it- it was

Jada Pinkett Smith 25:11 part of what was refreshing for a lot of people-

Steven Bartlett 25:14 Hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 25:14 ... but it was also the thing that was standoffish too, right?

Steven Bartlett 25:19 What is that?

Jada Pinkett Smith 25:20 Um, I think just that, that edge that I came with, that no f- you know, having no fucks to give, basically, it was just like, "I'm here to do me. What?" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 25:32 Hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 25:33 You know? And I got something to offer, and if you can't see it, well then that's on you. Your loss. You know, just that kinda attitude, and just kinda like, you know, I wasn't your prim, proper, uh, demure young lady, you know? It was just

Jada Pinkett Smith 25:51 kinda like, I was just rough, rugged, and rambunctious.

Steven Bartlett 25:57 It's interesting, isn't it, in life, how a certain type of demeanor or attitude or mindset can help us to survive and thrive in one context, but sometimes we need to figure out how to turn that shit off. (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 26:09 (laughs) Yes! And that's what I had to learn to do.

Steven Bartlett 26:11 'Cause you weren't in survival anymore, and-

Jada Pinkett Smith 26:12 I wasn't in survival anymore-

Steven Bartlett 26:14 Yeah.

Jada Pinkett Smith 26:14 ... you know? And I talk about this in the book, you know, how Warren Beatty, bless him, he was probably one of the first people that was just like, "Hey, you're in Hollywood now, okay? I get it. But why don't you allow people to see some other aspects, that charm you have, that smile you have? Like, let's take that, let's take that chip off your shoulder a little bit." You know? And he was the first person really to talk to me in a way that wasn't, like, making me wrong, right? He didn't make me wrong for being who I was. He was just like, "There's so much more to you. Let people see that." You know? And that was the first time I actually listened, 'cause he didn't make me wrong. And I bet you Warren has no idea that how, how much that conversation and the time that he spent with me really meant to me. It was really awesome because he was, he was so respectful and he really honored where I sat and where... B- you, you didn't get that often in Hollywood. It was just like, "No, you gotta change this. You gotta do this different. You, you'll never get jobs like that." And I was just like, "Ugh. Well, then I won't work," 'cause, you know, I was very rebellious sometimes in that way. Um, but yeah, he really, that really stuck with me. And from that day on, I just started on the journey of trying to figure out how to not lose myself, but also feel, find a way to feel safe to take that approach. Because like I said, I was around wolves all the time, so I had to always be on guard. I had to always have this tough exterior. I always had to carry the attitude like, "I'm not the one. You don't wanna come over here."

Steven Bartlett 28:26 It's interesting 'cause when you... Putting up such a barrier to defend yourself, um, can often make us quite hard to form-

Jada Pinkett Smith 28:40 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 28:40 ... connections, right?

Jada Pinkett Smith 28:41 Yes, absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 28:42 And the reason I paused there is 'cause I'm thinking about what you said in the book after Tony left you, who was your mother's new husband. He left abru- abruptly after playing the role o- of a father. And you said the line about, um, "The rejection was brutal. Something broke inside me. My grief was oceanic. I put a- on a li- I put it on a library shelf labeled 'Unlovable' and I tried to leave it there." That's anot- another word that comes up over and over again, this word unlova- unlovable. And it's funny 'cause when people are... When they feel unlovable themselves, they do often put up these walls which make them... It's almost like self-fulfilling, it's-

Jada Pinkett Smith 29:18 Right. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 29:18 ... you know?

Jada Pinkett Smith 29:19 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 29:20 And that's the essence of what I felt in Jada when she arrives in Hollywood as this person who's got this sort of little bit of a tough exterior up, but not because, not because she's not, you know...

Jada Pinkett Smith 29:29 Yeah. Not because I-

Steven Bartlett 29:31 Yeah.

Jada Pinkett Smith 29:31 You know, it was really just, it was, it was so many things I was trying to protect.

Steven Bartlett 29:35 It was defense, not offense is what I'm saying.

Jada Pinkett Smith 29:37 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 29:38 Yeah.

Jada Pinkett Smith 29:38 Yeah, it was. And, and I still to this day, you know, people, like, you know... (laughs) I still to this day have to, like, manage that-

Steven Bartlett 29:49 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 29:49 ... because it's just, it's just in me. It's just part of me. It's some- because it was such a, um... It was, yeah, it, it was something that was built at the foundation, you know? It was in my DNA.

Steven Bartlett 30:05 Default, isn't it?

Jada Pinkett Smith 30:05 Yes, my default. So it's like... And I, I do it well. I can just... You won't know anything that's going on. But like you said, it's like, well then, you don't give yourself an opportunity to make the connections that you really wanna have.

Steven Bartlett 30:20 And you're gonna be misunderstood.

Jada Pinkett Smith 30:22 Stood. Yeah. All the time. Which, that is like... That has been my life too, just misunderstood.

Steven Bartlett 30:31 Another thing I learned from reading the book, which is going to shock you that I didn't know, but this shows how little I am tuned into media and Hollywood and all that-

Jada Pinkett Smith 30:39 Good for you.

Steven Bartlett 30:39 ... is your relationship with Tupac.

Jada Pinkett Smith 30:42 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:43 He comes over, introduces himself.

Jada Pinkett Smith 30:45 Yeah, first day of school, Baltimore School for the Arts. And, um, as, as soon as I walk in, he's holding court, he's holding court. He's a cha- like, he's a charismatic from day one. He's holding court and I'm like, "Who's, who's that peanut head dude over there?" You know. And I'm coming in, I'm rocking, you know, I'm Jada. I'm walking in, I got the rat tail, I got the fly clothes, you know. And he turns and we ... our eyes just meet and I'm like, "Oh," and then, you know, I- I'm g- I'm gonna hold my court, you know what I'm saying? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:27 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 31:27 And so then he comes over, you know, I just b- and I'm like, "Okay, cool. Yeah, whatever." And so he comes over and he's like, "Hey, I'm Tupac." And I'm like, "Tupac?" The name from the gate was just like, I never heard a name like that before. That was such a powerful different name. And I was like, "Tupac?" And he had this big smile. And I was like, it's not a lot of people that have that kind of, like, charisma and courage to just walk up on me on just like, "I'm Tupac." I'm ... You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 32:00 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 32:00 You need to know me. You know? And from the g- right from there, inseparable. We became the best of friends from that moment on. We just connected. It was as if we already knew each other. It's crazy.

Steven Bartlett 32:12 P- people will find it hard to believe that at that age and that environment, it wasn't a romantic thing.

Jada Pinkett Smith 32:17 I know. People have had a really hard time, you know, understanding that. Pac and I had a hard time understanding why it just didn't ... we didn't have it. And I talk about it in the book, you know, that being on the back of porch of my house and we're like having this discussion, I'm like, "Okay, Pac, just kiss me." And he kisses me and it's the most disgusting kiss-

Steven Bartlett 32:43 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 32:44 ... between us both. I mean, he pulled back just like ... and I pulled back and I was like, "See? Dummy." You know? And from there it was just like ... and then there was one more time he kissed me and it was just like ... and I talk about that in, in jail when I go to see him in Dannemora. That's a whole another thing. And once again, it's just like, "Dude. Doesn't work." But throughout our relationship, we definitely had this beautiful closeness that was really intimate but never physically intimate. A lot of emotional intimacy, a lot of, um, intellectual intimacy. Um, we just knew how to reach each other in ways that was very difficult. We knew how to get around each other's walls and we didn't get offended when we would fall into our defaults of defense, which could be pretty fierce between the two of us. He was quite, uh, a powerhouse and so was I. We could be very challenging when we got riled up. So arguments, we were very passionate but because we were one and the same in that way, we kind of understood that language. It's like, "Ah, this joker does it."

Steven Bartlett 34:18 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 34:18 You know what I mean? So we didn't get offended a lot until one particular time which comes later in the book.

Steven Bartlett 34:25 Yeah, when you come from the same place, so you know the origin stories, you don't have that misunderstood thing-

Jada Pinkett Smith 34:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:30 ... you talk about, because you understand-

Jada Pinkett Smith 34:32 I just understood him.

Steven Bartlett 34:33 ... the context.

Jada Pinkett Smith 34:33 I just understood him and he understood me. He really got me and he really knew how to pull my coattails in ways that a lot of people didn't. And same for me with him. I just knew how to reach him in ways that ... and, and that had everything to ... and I think because we didn't have that kind of ... I think sometimes physical intimacy can really get in the way.

Steven Bartlett 35:00 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 35:01 You know? Um, and I think that God just made it that way, in which God was like, "No, no, no. I need you two to be..." (laughs) "I, I, I got a plan, so that's not part of plan."

Steven Bartlett 35:14 Did you know ... Did you in your heart of hearts know that Tupac was going to go on to do what he did?

Jada Pinkett Smith 35:23 I knew he was going to go to do something.

Steven Bartlett 35:26 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 35:28 I did not know he would become the Tupac we know him to be, but I knew he was going to do something great.

Steven Bartlett 35:35 In hindsight, when you look back at who he was, the character traits, the ingredients that were within him, why did he go on to do what he did? What was it about him?

Jada Pinkett Smith 35:47 He wore his heart on his sleeve and he could join you. And so what I mean by joining you is that he's not talking at you, he's talking with you. He had a way of being able to speak about subject matters that he's gonna sit with you and your broken heart and speak to you from there, because he knows that broken heart. He's lived that broken heart. So ... And whether it's your broken heart, whether it's your rage, but he just knew how to penetrate those emotional spaces in people and that's what I mean by joining you. He knew how to join you emotionally.... in so many different verticals of emotion. You know, he was supremely intelligent as well. He was so authentic also and so raw that I think that was really refreshing as well. He gave you him. And he was unapologetic, so he's gonna give you his intelligence, he's gonna give you his fear, he's gonna give you his pain, he's gonna give you his anger. You know, he's gonna give you his sympathy. He's gonna give you his understanding, right? But it was coming from that, that heart space, that, that, that, real space within. It wasn't a gimmick. It wasn't like, "Oh, I'm gonna talk about this because this is what's hot." No. You know, right, wrong, or indifferent, he gave you his truth and

Jada Pinkett Smith 37:34 some truths people could rock with, with them and some truths you couldn't, you know what I mean? And, um, but regardless, it was what was real for him at that time. He was always authentic.

Steven Bartlett 37:48 But it's not easy, it comes with a cost, right?

Jada Pinkett Smith 37:50 It comes with a cost.

Steven Bartlett 37:52 Because it's almost the opposite of conformity in a way, authenticity.

Jada Pinkett Smith 37:56 Yeah, exactly, and he was a rebel in that way and I think people really ... At, at, at, at points in his career, you know, he could speak, he would speak for the community and then at points of his career, he would speak from that, that really intimate place of wounded-ness.

Steven Bartlett 38:16 Dear Mama.

Jada Pinkett Smith 38:17 Yeah. You know that so many of us related to. Nobody was speaking to us in that way that could, that could go from Ambitions of a Rider, to shed so many tears, to A Soldier's Story? Come on. (scoffs) Come on. You know, to, I mean, he had so... He could speak to us from so many different angles.

Steven Bartlett 38:49 That is just the evidence of authenticity, isn't it? Because people are multifaceted in their nature. No one is just Ambition of a Rider, like-

Jada Pinkett Smith 38:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:56 We are all, all the shades.

Jada Pinkett Smith 38:57 All, all the shades, right?

Steven Bartlett 38:59 But rap, rap music, especially back then, it was very narrowing. It was like, "This is how to be a rapper."

Jada Pinkett Smith 39:04 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 39:04 So, someone willing to be authentic... It's funny, I've seen this over and over again, they, they are the most resonant people in the world because they represent us in a way that a lot of others aren't brave enough to represent us in. That's also what vulnerability does.

Jada Pinkett Smith 39:15 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 39:16 That's what, uh, you do as well in this book.

Jada Pinkett Smith 39:18 Well, thank you.

Steven Bartlett 39:18 Because, because you're willing to lay it all out, we can relate to, many people will be able to relate to many parts of you. And, you know, without books like this, we get narrow views and those narrower views, th- I mean, those are crafted by other people and they're the least relatable narratives.

Jada Pinkett Smith 39:37 Right.

Steven Bartlett 39:38 Right?

Jada Pinkett Smith 39:38 Yeah, and we're all so multi-dimensional.

Steven Bartlett 39:41 You move to LA, you're working three jobs, you start trying to climb into the ladder of Hollywood. Um, at this point, you, you meet a certain Fresh Prince.

Jada Pinkett Smith 39:52 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 39:54 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 39:55 The savior prince.

Steven Bartlett 39:56 The savior prince.

Jada Pinkett Smith 39:57 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:58 And I was quite shocked by, I think of, I think of Will Smith, I think charismatic, he's a good-looking guy.

Jada Pinkett Smith 40:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:05 You didn't seem to think that weird.

Jada Pinkett Smith 40:07 No. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:09 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 40:10 No, not at first, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:13 What did you think at first?

Jada Pinkett Smith 40:14 I mean, he was the Fresh Prince. I was like, "Okay, he's cool." You know? But I was like, "Not, not, not the guy for me." You know?

Steven Bartlett 40:23 Why? Was he too soft?

Jada Pinkett Smith 40:25 I wouldn't say he, I wouldn't say soft. I would just say that he didn't seem deep.

Steven Bartlett 40:32 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 40:33 And I talk about this in the book how, at that time, a troubled dude seemed deep to me versus just troubled. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:43 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 40:44 It's like, stay away from the troubles. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:48 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 40:49 Right? And so he wasn't troubled, it didn't seem to be, right? And so I was like, "That's not deep." Like he just seems like, you know, just didn't draw me in that way.

Steven Bartlett 41:02 You don't feel the same way anymore though, do you?

Jada Pinkett Smith 41:04 No.

Steven Bartlett 41:04 About the tr- the, uh, the deep parts

Jada Pinkett Smith 41:06 Oh, no, he's actually-

Steven Bartlett 41:07 ... the kind of troubled part that

Jada Pinkett Smith 41:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:08 ... who read this book.

Jada Pinkett Smith 41:08 Exactly, yeah. Yeah, don't judge a book by its cover, that, that's, that's what Will Smith told,

Jada Pinkett Smith 41:14 taught me. It was like, not to judge a book by its cover, and I learned that, you know, years later when we had an opportunity to have a, you know, we had a mutual friend and so we were able to share some time at Jerry's Deli over a meal and I got to see a totally different side of him.

Steven Bartlett 41:33 Dwayne?

Jada Pinkett Smith 41:34 Dwayne Martin.

Steven Bartlett 41:35 Yeah.

Jada Pinkett Smith 41:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:36 He went to that jacket potato place.

Jada Pinkett Smith 41:38 Yeah, The Baked Potato, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:40 Yeah.

Jada Pinkett Smith 41:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:40 What was it about, what did you see in Will that night? I found it really interesting because one of the things that you described seeing in him was someone who quite, was quite adamant in taking over the world.

Jada Pinkett Smith 41:49 Yeah. He was so ambitious, you know, and in such a beautiful way. He had big dreams, big dreams, and, um, and he was so joyful. He was really joyful but grounded, and that was the part that I missed. He was grounded. It was like he'd been through some things and he's really intelligent, so he's what you call s- you know, he could go from the hood to the White House and everywhere in between. Right? And I always find people like that fascinating that have a wide range within them.... places that they can go. You know, you drop Will anywhere and he's gonna figure it out and fit in.

Steven Bartlett 42:50 He had asked you to be his onscreen girlfriend, hadn't he?

Jada Pinkett Smith 42:52 He-

Steven Bartlett 42:53 In The Fresh Prince.

Jada Pinkett Smith 42:53 Okay, yeah. So I auditioned for Fresh Prince, I think it was the second year, to play one of his girlfriends and they were like, "You're too short." And I was like, "All right. Well, cool." Right? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:08 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 43:08 And so that was the first time that I actually met Will. I came out of the, the casting and he was, you know, coming into the casting office or about to leave or something, and he was like, "Hey." I was like, "Yeah, what's up?" You know, I was like, "No need to talk to me. They already said I'm, I'm short." You know? So I'm on my way and then ... And I think I w- I think I was probably about 20, um, and he wanted, he, he wanted me to play his, you know, his girlfriend as a series regular. So he flew into North Carolina to meet me and I was like, "Nah, I'm gonna do movies now." And he was like, "All right, cool."

Steven Bartlett 43:51 That's a, that's a bold, that's a big rejection-

Jada Pinkett Smith 43:55 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:56 ... to reject the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air when he says you can be his sort of recurring, onscreen girlfriend in a hit show and you say, "TV's not for me. I'm gonna focus on movies." Big call.

Jada Pinkett Smith 44:06 Well, I had just done it. I had just come off of A Different World.

Steven Bartlett 44:09 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 44:10 And I knew, like, I had the protection of Debbie Allen on A Different World, right? And so when I wanted to make moves, Debbie was there to help me. That's not to say that I would have that same assistance on Fresh Prince and at that time, they locked you in.

Steven Bartlett 44:27 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 44:28 You couldn't do anything. You know what I mean? They have you for six years, they got you locked and I, I just didn't wanna be locked like that. And so I really wanted to try my hand at doing movies and then Duane Martin, when I turned Will down, Duane Martin got on me 'cause he felt the same way you did. It was just like, "It's financial security. How could you let something like this go?" And, you know, "Who's to say when your next starring move-, you know, role is gonna come in?" And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I was like ... But I'm so glad that I didn't take that role 'cause I tell you what, if I had taken that role, Will and I would not have been married and I wouldn't have had Jaden and Willow

Jada Pinkett Smith 45:10 and been Trey's bonus mom. My life would've been totally different.

Steven Bartlett 45:14 Are you sure?

Jada Pinkett Smith 45:15 I'm positive. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:17 As in, you were sure that-

Jada Pinkett Smith 45:18 Positive.

Steven Bartlett 45:18 ... you wouldn't have gotten married?

Jada Pinkett Smith 45:20 I'm positive. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 45:22 Because you would've seen-

Jada Pinkett Smith 45:23 Oh yeah, no.

Steven Bartlett 45:24 You would've seen the red flags, would you? (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 45:25 Uh, listen (laughs) , no.

Steven Bartlett 45:27 Shh.

Jada Pinkett Smith 45:28 (laughs) Yeah, no.

Steven Bartlett 45:32 Earthquakes are hard to predict. Sometimes you feel tremors ahead of time. Often they come on suddenly and in your early 20s you had your first, maybe not even your first, but what you describe in the book as your first breakdown, personal earthquake when you're driving down the street one day. Mental health and psychiatry have come a long way since then. Um, I, I, I would guess that at the time, many people wouldn't have been able to tell you what that was.

Jada Pinkett Smith 46:02 I had no idea what was going on. Me just thinking about that moment, just, it's like, um ... I was so overwhelmed, you know, and I was like, I, I didn't know what was going on with me and it came over me in an instant. I was fine one moment, I'm turning my car around to meet a friend on the corner that, you know, I saw to say, and to say hello to her and all of a sudden, my body's shaking, all these emotions come over me and I, I'm like, I'm starting to cr- It's like waterfall of, like, tears and I-I'm like, and I have no idea, like my brain is not catching up to what is happening with my body. All I know is that this waterfall, this volcano of emotions, it was fear, anger, despair and I was like, "I, I gotta ..." And she was looking at me like, "Are you okay?" And I was like, "I, I don't know." I, you know, and I get in the car and I'm trying to drive and I'm like, "You can't drive. Pull over." And then I pull over and then I just remember feeling terrified to just let it go and I let it go and then I'm like, "I wanna die. I wanna die." And I remember making it home and all I could do was call my mother and say, "You gotta come here. I'm gonna kill myself." You know? And I think about that and I'm just like, "Wow." And my mother was like, she was maybe a year into her sobriety, right? And what a terrifying call to get. Like, if I get that call from Willow or Jaden or Trey, I'm just, you know, it's like ... And, um, so she's figuring out, because she just started a job at this hospital, I'm so terrified to be by myself, I call my homegirl, MC Lyte, and I tell her, I was like, "You gotta come out here. I'm afraid to be alone by myself. I'm gonna do something to myself." And she flies out and so she holds me down until my mother comes. It's a crazy moment.

Steven Bartlett 48:44 Have you figured out what, what your body was telling you?

Jada Pinkett Smith 48:48 I think my body was telling me that... I think my mind was telling me, "Hey, we have some things we gotta pay attention to up here. Enough with, 'Let's keep it moving.' I'm gonna make it so you're not gonna just be able to keep it moving anymore. You have some things that you gotta pay attention to, some things that need to be addressed." And at the time, like you were just talking about, nobody was talking about mental health, at all. And specifically mental health was considered like a white people thing. Black people don't have mental health issues, right? And so suicide, for sure, was a white people thing. So I was real confused. I, I felt really... I felt like something is, is, has gone really, really, really wrong here because nobody else like me feels like this. Nobody knows what's going on and maybe I'm losing my mind, I'm actually going crazy, you know? So it was a scary time.

Steven Bartlett 50:16 When I read about that, it sounded to me like you had been, you'd been playing defense for just a little bit too long.

Jada Pinkett Smith 50:22 Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Steven Bartlett 50:25 And that's, I guess, one of the costs of the, the toughness, right? The like, as you say, "We'll just keep it moving."

Jada Pinkett Smith 50:31 We'll just keep it moving.

Steven Bartlett 50:31 We'll just keep it moving.

Jada Pinkett Smith 50:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:33 Nobody's immune, are they?

Jada Pinkett Smith 50:34 No. It's gonna catch you. You can deal with it or it will deal with you. Those are your choi- those are your two choices.

Steven Bartlett 50:43 But you, you did keep it moving, even in that moment it seemed. It seemed like you, you c- carried on with the work, um, (smacks lips) I think you were, you were recommended to go and see a psychiatrist, right?

Jada Pinkett Smith 50:54 Yeah, I went to see a psychiatrist. They put me on, um, Prozac and I, I started therapy. I started therapy.

Steven Bartlett 51:03 But it does still appear that you kept it moving because you, you kept working.

Jada Pinkett Smith 51:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:07 You didn't seem to wanna show anybody outside of your sort of inner circle that-

Jada Pinkett Smith 51:11 Hell no.

Steven Bartlett 51:13 Why?

Jada Pinkett Smith 51:13 Absolutely not. Because that's what we do, we keep it moving, right? And so I was like, "I got the help that I need. I got a doctor and I'm on Prozac." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:27 Just like... you're off the grid.

Jada Pinkett Smith 51:28 Right. So I'm like, "Okay, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing and I can't let anybody know, and we're gonna keep this moving because that's what we do."

Steven Bartlett 51:42 Plaster over cracks.

Jada Pinkett Smith 51:44 Yeah, we just... yeah, at that time, "I'm gonna take a break because, you know, I'm having... I'm depressed." What? At that time that seemed absolutely ridiculous.

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Jada Pinkett Smith 54:06 I did. I went back to Baltimore, um, and 'cause I was

Jada Pinkett Smith 54:12 going to continue working, but not live in LA anymore.

Steven Bartlett 54:16 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 54:17 And so I bought a farmhouse.

Steven Bartlett 54:19 Hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 54:20 I bought a little farmhouse on, I wanna say it was about six acres, s- m- six or nine acres if I remember correctly.

Steven Bartlett 54:29 Oh.

Jada Pinkett Smith 54:29 And it was, um... I was gonna build a life there for myself in a little quiet corner and, you know, I was like, "All right, I'll... if I need to audition, I'll either go to New York or I can just fly back and forth from LA."

Steven Bartlett 54:47 Heard Will was trying to hit you up at this, this point in your life.

Jada Pinkett Smith 54:51 Yeah, he hit me up. He had just...... Shereé had just sent him divorce papers. And, um, he decides to call me. And of course, me not knowing anything about marriage, thinking that marriage, you know, breakup of a marriage is like breaking up with a boyfriend. He's like, you know, um, "Where are you?" And I'm like, "I'm in Baltimore, you know, renovating my house." And he's like, "Are you seeing anybody?" And I'm like, "No." He's like, "Good, you're seeing me now." And I was like, "What?" (laughs) Once again, that kind of bold, you know, approach. I was just like, "Oh," clutched my pearls a little bit. So he was like, you know, "Call me when you get back to LA." So when I got back to LA, I called him, and we went out on our first date.

Steven Bartlett 55:37 In and around that time, Pac had been sentenced to Rikers, right? He'd been sent in, sent to jail for-

Jada Pinkett Smith 55:43 He'd been sent to... At that point in time, he was at Rikers,

Jada Pinkett Smith 55:46 but then he was on his way to Dannemora.

Steven Bartlett 55:48 Which is a horrific place where they send terrorists-

Jada Pinkett Smith 55:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:52 ... usually.

Jada Pinkett Smith 55:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:53 I think the 9/11, some of the people that were involved with 9/11 or the World Trade Center bombings were sent to Dannemora. Um, while he's in jail... (paper rustling)

Jada Pinkett Smith 56:04 While he's in jail. What do you have here? Oh. Yeah. "Now, as I slip from grace and the world has turned against me, a few claim to have love for me, but once again, you show your love. After deep reflection and spiritual awakening, I have come to realize the friend, love, and soulmate was there all the time. I've not seen or felt from anywhere or anyone the intensity and loyalty that you have shown me. That is why I want to commit myself to you. I want to marry you."

Steven Bartlett 56:39 He sends you that letter?

Jada Pinkett Smith 56:40 Yeah, he, uh... It's a much longer letter than that, but that's the words that I put in the book.

Steven Bartlett 56:47 A marriage proposal?

Jada Pinkett Smith 56:48 That's while he was in Rikers. When I went to go see him in Rikers, and Rikers is actually... That's a really... Dannemora might be where they put terrorists. Rikers is like... (sighs) I remember going to see him there, and, um, he was in such bad shape, you know. And, um, I... The Rikers, I, like... Yeah, Rikers was bad. Dannemora, yeah, terrorists are there, but far more humane conditions than, I would say, Rikers.

Steven Bartlett 57:50 It feels, it feels like the emotion is still right on the surface with you when you think back to these, these moments in your life.

Jada Pinkett Smith 57:57 Oh, yeah. I, it feels like I just came back from seeing Pac at Rikers, and I had to leave him there. It was just like yesterday. But I'm also in a very raw place in my life right now-

Steven Bartlett 58:13 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 58:13 ... as I'm thawing out, as I'm dismantling my defenses.

Steven Bartlett 58:19 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 58:20 You know, I call it the thaw-out. So I'm, I'm in a really raw place.

Steven Bartlett 58:24 Obviously, Pac was... He gets out of jail, and Suge Knight... I mean, again talking about timing.

Jada Pinkett Smith 58:30 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:30 I think it was like a week ago or two weeks ago that someone's been convicted for Tupac's murder. A lot of emotions.

Jada Pinkett Smith 58:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:39 How did you feel when you heard about the, um, conviction, or that someone had... That arrested, had... An arrest had been made?

Jada Pinkett Smith 58:45 Um, I was like... I, I was glad that an arrest had been made. This was someone who we had known had been in the car. He, he had had done some street interviews about it, you know. Um, and I was just hoping, I was like, "Well, I hope they're bringing him in, because we're gonna get some other questions answered." So, you know, my hope is that we'll get more questions answered.

Steven Bartlett 59:25 In the book, you question, but then you confirm that Pac, Tupac knew how you felt about him when he passed away because you and him hadn't been speaking.

Jada Pinkett Smith 59:37 No.

Steven Bartlett 59:38 And I think there's a really important lesson in, in this for all of us.

Jada Pinkett Smith 59:41 Yeah. Yeah, we had a, we had a huge fight. Huge. It was one of the biggest fights we had ever had. And, um, and it was about how he had been living, you know. And, uh, I really, at that time, you know, really had to let him know my position, that I just felt like, you know, where he was sitting with everything was just... it wasn't gonna end up well, right? And we had a magnanimous... I mean, it was (laughs) just beyond the two of us, just at each other. Um, and I was just like, "Fuck that."I'm not calling him this time. He's gonna have to call me. He was way out of line, so I really dug my heels, heels in the ground in regards to like, nah. You know, I let my pride, I let my ego come in. I really took for granted that he would be living forever. Like, he had already survived so much, like it never, like I never... I, I looked at Pac as being invincible at this point, you know, 'cause he survived so much, even so much that people don't know about, you know. Um, but just like I say in the book, I'm like, "Man, don't do it. Don't do it. Don't, don't, don't hold on to, like, that prideful part of yourself, you know, when someone you really care about." Like, no,

Steven Bartlett 1:01:56 Was that the last time you spoke to him (...)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:02:00 That was the last time I spoke to him. That was the last time I spoke to him. That was the last time I spoke to him. And you know what's crazy? It meant absolutely nothing. It meant absolutely nothing. And so that's the test I always have. I'm like, "Okay, you're in this beef with somebody. Will this beef matter on your deathbed?" And then right

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:02:30 away I'm like, "Nope, let me give him a call." You know what I'm saying? That's my, that's my test.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:41 Almost a year later, he gets shot in Las Vegas. You get a phone call while you're filming on set that he's... from, I believe from his mother.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:02:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:50 Aafeni Shakur, and saying that he's in hospital in a coma. And a few days after that you find out that he's passed away.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:02:58 Yeah, I was on my way. You know, Faye was like, "No rush, he's gonna be fine." Um, he had his fiance there with him and his family. Um, she was like, "So, you know, come after your trip in New York." So I was on my way to him, and my girlfriend, Fon, came to the door and she... me, I, I knew as soon as I saw her face that he was gone. Oh, I know that picture. (laughs) Yep, that was Thanksgiving. He came to LA to spend Thanksgiving with me. (laughs) And we were at one of my friend's house.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:49 You look like brother and sister. (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:03:50 Yeah, we look like brother and sister, because that's what we were. Yeah, he came to Thanksgiving to spend Thanksgiving with me.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:59 We talked about mental health earlier. Do you, do you know how to grieve someone, the loss of someone like, like that in your life?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:04:06 No, I'm still, I'm still, um, working out my relationship with grief, actually. Yeah, I haven't, I haven't really... I, I... Yeah, I'm still working that out.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:26 Because this chapter of your life was loss.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:04:30 Mm-hmm, Unwarned Loss.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:32 Chapter 12 of your book.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:04:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:34 I've got this other picture that I found that I thought was, um, relevant.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:04:39 Oh. Now you, do you know why this is relevant?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:42 I do. Maxine and, and Tupac are both in that picture.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:04:46 In the same picture. Yeah. Do you have a tissue? Thanks. Ah. Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:17 Thank you.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:05:21 You give nice hugs. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:05:22 You're welcome, buddy.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:05:26 Um, yeah, that's, uh... Yeah. Sorry.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:48 It's okay.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:05:55 Yeah, I, um, I lost Maxine and Pac back to back. So I like to, you know... This picture, to be flanked by them. (laughs) Yeah, I lost 'em back to back.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:13 Maxine was a good friend of yours. Um, Pac was your brother.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:06:18 Yeah. And she was like my sister, you know. She, um... I met Maxine on Jason's Lyric and, uh, we became like super tight. And she lived in Canada, and so she wanted to come to Hollywood and make a career for herself, so I told her that she could come live with me, so she came to, to live with me. Um, she, we, we feel as though she, um, had a misdiagnosis, that she had some kind of thyroid disorder that really, um...... disrupted her psyche.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:13 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:07:14 And, uh, she ended up jumping off her mother's balcony. Committed, she committed suicide. Um, so that was really tough.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:33 It seems, it seems unimaginable that that chapter and season of your life could be filled with so much loss and so much complicated loss.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:07:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:42 You know? Because in all these situations as you write about in the book, there are reflections where you, you say in the book, "If I..." Youknow you're left with this feeling, "If I'd done this, I could... Maybe I should've done it like this," or, "I wish I'd treated that situation differently." And hindsight, as we know, is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:08:00 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:00 You know?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:08:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:01 And I've sat here with a lot of people that have lost a lot of people by, by suicide, and they all have the same reflections.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:08:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:07 They all have that last phone call with the person where they had to put up a boundary and-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:08:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:12 ... you know? I've sat here, even in LA in that chair, with... I remember Bos, um, her, her partner at the time, calling and saying, "Listen, if you don't come and do this, I'll jump off this bridge," and then he does and...

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:08:23 Yeah. It's like that existential disappointment-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:29 Hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:08:30 ... of just life being what it is. It's like grieving that. Grieving... It's like she in a... She went from this, like, happy person to, like, having this condition that just... Right? And so I just... Sometimes I just go... This is when I just have to, like, reconcile with God.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:04 Mmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:09:06 It's like, "Wow, God." Like, "You really be doing some stuff." (laughs) Like, you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 1:09:11 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:09:11 And it's like... And sometimes I get in grief around what life is, and then I have to make peace with it.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:26 Feels... Uh, th- thinking about your story, it feels confusing that God could seemingly hand someone so much, you know?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:09:37 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:09:37 Wonderful career, wonderful family, all of those things, but at the same time... And maybe, maybe there's a relationship, maybe there's a relationship between the two, because had you not had the... Had you not come from where you came from, maybe you wouldn't have had all the wonderful things that you have. But also had you not come from where you came from, maybe you wouldn't have experienced all the loss that you've experienced.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:09:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:59 So maybe there's a relationship between the two, because I've not experienced that loss, but I don't come from where you come from. So my... I didn't lose friends growing up.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:10:06 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:07 I didn't lose friends in, in a, in my 20s either.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:10:09 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:10 Um...

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:10:12 Having all the different experiences that I've had, as painful as some of them are, it gives me the opportunity to join people in a certain manner-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:21 Mm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:10:23 ... you know? And in really powerful places, you know? Like I have a beautiful friendship with, um, Lauren London, and she is the widow of Nipsey Hussle. And because of the loss that I went through with Pac, I could reach out to her and I could go, "Hey. Anytime you need anything, anytime you need to talk, I'm here." And Lauren's quite like me, defenses, you know what I mean? But I just kept walking closer and closer. And I just say all that to say that we've been able to meet each other in a certain place because of the type of losses we've had.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:24 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:11:26 That can really create beautiful connection. You feel me?

Steven Bartlett 1:11:34 Mm-hmm, I feel you.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:11:35 Yeah. So there are blessings in pain. You just gotta, you just gotta know that to be true and wait for that door to open, you know? And that's just one, one tiny example of, like, the blessings that I've found in a lot of the loss that I've had in my life in general, you know?

Steven Bartlett 1:12:04 There's almost a, an irony or a paradox in the fact that your pain caused a disconnection, but then the pain caused connection.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:12:12 Deep. Because heartbreak... There's this beautiful scene in heartbreak which is like, it breaks you open. It breaks you open, and you got two places that you can go. You can go into the deep wells of darkness, or you can go into the deep wells of light. And I've been to both. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:12:46 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:12:46 And I've learned I ain't trying to be over here no more.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:49 Yeah. (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:12:50 You know what I mean? And so I always use heartbreak, discontent, pain to help me search for bright light and beautiful blessings within them.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:06 In the opener of the book, y- you describe, in the prologue...... the life that the world would have seen in, over the next sort of 10 years of your life, before your, before you turn 40. You describe the, you know, your super successful Hollywood actress. You've got this husband who is, you know, Will Smith, and he's a super successful Hollywood act- actor. You've got these kids, you've got the family, you've got the house, you've got it all.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:13:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:32 Externally, you're killing the game.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:13:33 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:13:33 So internally, you must be killing the game. (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:13:35 Right. Internally, you know, I was spiritually bankrupt. Right?

Steven Bartlett 1:13:44 I, I find it so, I found it so interesting hearing you describe the relationship that both you and Will had as it relates to conflict resolution.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:13:51 Uh-huh.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:52 I find it so interesting, 'cause I've come to learn over the last couple of years that the way we deal with conflict predicts the long-term health of our relationships.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:13:59 Oh, God, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:00 And I think there's this professor, professor, I think he's called Professor John Gottman, who studied couples and tried to figure out why they end up in divorce, and he says the number one reason is because they build contempt.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:10 Contempt. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:14:12 That- that's all about conflict resolution-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:14 It is.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:14 ... how you're dealing with your bullshit.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:15 Yes. Absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:17 Now, you remind me of my partner, because she wants connection, she wants to talk, she wants to resolve things. She's, you know, she wants to deal with the emotions.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:25 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:14:27 I would like (clears throat) (laughs) to not.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:29 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:29 I will buy you something to make sure that you're safe.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:31 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:32 I'll pay for your stuff.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:33 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:33 But I just wanna work.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:35 And I, and that's the way you describe Will.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:39 Me? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:14:39 (laughs) And so I resonated with Will in, in that, but I-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:43 ... I ... You sharing how you felt throughout that story helped me to understand my partner.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:48 Beautiful.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:48 And all the conversations he's had with me about what she actually wants from me.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:52 And me misunderstanding her because we have different love languages.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:57 And your love language starts when you're a kid, right?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:14:59 Yeah. For sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:01 And Will's does, too.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:15:02 Absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:05 What was that conflict of your love languages?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:15:08 Will's, you know, was very much like yours. It's like, "Mm-mm, I wanna work. I wanna work hard so that you can have everything in the world that you'd ever want." You know? "I'm, you're not gonna need for anything." Right? And my love language was like, "But I just want you to be here with me. I don't need all of that stuff. I wanna look in your eyes, and you know, feel your love, and feel your protection here with me." And, you know, it was like that connection. I wanted to feel like I wanted to make a masterpiece out of our connection, you know? And he wanted to make a masterpiece out of, you know, the, the, the life itself. Right? And neither is wrong. Neither is wrong. And that's what I had to learn. That, that, that's where we- we've come to now in understanding. Neither one of those wants are wrong. It's how do you balance them? 'Cause it can't be one or the other. How do we balance it? Like yin and yang. Everything about life is balance. So, I just want you to know that- (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:16:23 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:16:23 ... if you're your partner. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:16:25 You talking to me? (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:16:27 Yeah, I just, I just want you to know that, because in,

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:16:29 in, as couples we get into these power struggles. "No, my way is right." "No, my way is right." "Well, if you didn't have this," you know? You know, it, it gets into all of that. Right? And it's like, ah, stop. It's not about anybody being right or wrong. How do you get the balance of it? That's it. Right? And so, yeah. It took Will and I three decades. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:16:59 Jesus Christ. (laughs) I don't have that kind of time. (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:17:01 Yeah. Three decades. Okay? Three decades. That's what, we'll get to that. We'll get you.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:09 Explain that.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:17:09 It doesn't have to be that, you know? It's like, do it now.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:14 'Cause that-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:17:15 And-

Steven Bartlett 1:17:15 ... that's what I've said to my girlfriend is, I've told her that I've got this opportunity now because things are going well in my career, so I just wanna focus for now, and then we're gonna have all of our lives together. I actually said that to her one day, and she reminded me of it a week later when we were arguing.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:17:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:29 I was like, "We're gonna have all of our lives together, so like we'll connect later." Because it's-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:17:32 Yeah, "We'll connect later." It's like, "What?"

Steven Bartlett 1:17:35 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:17:35 "What kind of foolishness is that?" You know what I mean? And I'm gonna tell you like this. I bet you when you're on your deathbed, you're not gonna think about whatever it is you're trying to accomplish and achieve. What do you think you're gonna think about most when you're on your deathbed?

Steven Bartlett 1:17:57 Hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:17:58 How you were loved and how you loved. No?

Steven Bartlett 1:18:01 100%.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:18:02 Okay. Why?

Steven Bartlett 1:18:03 And even as I said it, I thought about Tupac and how you never know how long you've got left with someone.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:18:08 You don't know. Why would you ever wanna wait and put that off?

Steven Bartlett 1:18:13 It's an excuse, though, isn't it?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:18:14 It is an excuse, for sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:15 To justify my own toxic workaholism.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:18:18 Well, you know, I wouldn't call it toxic.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:21 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:18:21 I'm- I'm- I'm always careful with this word toxic-

Steven Bartlett 1:18:24 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:18:24 ... (laughs) that we're throwing around, right? 'Cause we're all so wounded.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:27 Exactly.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:18:28 And it's not ... Listen, when w- intimacy makes us have to look at our shit, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:18:39 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:18:40 It's easy to go, "I piss you off, I got you this diamond ring. I got you this, you know, beautiful bag. I'm gonna take you on this trip." It's like, right? But like, real emotional intimacy, we gotta, we gotta deal with our stuff. A lot of stuff comes up there.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:01 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:19:02 But that's where, that's where connection and love and true happiness-... true fulfillment is what's going on in our inner landscape.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:17 You talk of this loss of identity-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:19:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:19 ... when you married Will and this quote I wrote down, "It feels like I can't grasp my own journey. At times I feel resentful and angry. I don't know what to do about it." You and Will had these two sort of different visions for happiness in your lives together, his being that he wanted to take over the world as a global, you know, movie star, all the things that he is, um, and within there you start to lose

Steven Bartlett 1:19:42 yourself a little bit, it seems. This word resentful.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:19:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:46 Very interesting word.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:19:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:49 Can you give color to that word, why you, why you chose to use that word?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:19:53 'Cause it's true. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:19:54 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:19:54 You know? It was like I felt as though at that time... All right, if, if I'm- I- I wanna help you do all of those things. I'm here to help you with that. Right? Um, and I'm like, and in return, I should get a bit of what I want, which is connection. Right? And so you just, for me, just giving and giving and giving and giving and giving, and forgiving, forgetting. Well, not even forgetting, not realizing that I was abandoning myself in the hopes that if I just keep pouring into this, if I just keep pouring into him, if I keep pouring into his dream, I'm gonna eventually get what I want. Right? And that's a false idea, in so many ways, right? That I... And so many of us do that. If Will looked back and was trying to give me whatever the hell it was I was asking for, it- it- it wouldn't have, he wouldn't have been able to accomplish it anyway. Because if I'm not connected to myself, if I don't have a good relationship with me, there's nothing he can do. So I was gonna be assed out anyway, you know what I'm saying?

Steven Bartlett 1:21:26 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:21:26 So it's like, that's part of the journey. There's no right or wrong. Everybody's always trying to find the good guy or bad guy in people's stories. There's no good guys or bad guys. We're all wounded trying to figure this shit out, you know? And so it took me a long time to realize, it is not his responsibility to make you happy. He can't. It's impossible. But it took me forever, hard-headed, stubborn, you know, because that romantic idea, and that's why I talk about checking the boxes. It's like, "I did everything I was supposed to do. You get to have your dream, how come I'm not having mine?" And that's because Will was doing what he wanted to do. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:22:18 He was making himself happy.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:22:19 He was making himself happy.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:23 And he says that to you, doesn't he? He says, you, when you separate, he says, he wants you to go and-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:22:28 He's like, "Go. Go."

Steven Bartlett 1:22:31 Go make yourself happy?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:22:32 "Go make yourself happy."

Steven Bartlett 1:22:34 And how did you receive that?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:22:37 Not well. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:22:39 (laughs)

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:22:41 Not well, because, you know, there can be truth, but you know what I'm saying? It's like, how we ... you know. I think it was very true, but I think at that

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:22:53 particular point of time, I was just still really resentful of just like, you know, "Oh, so I helped you get your happiness, now you just gonna, you know, throw me to the curb and, you know, I gotta do it all on my own now," you know? But that's the truth. I had to do it on my own, you know? Just like he did. You gotta do it on your own. You gotta do it on your own. You gotta do it on your own. And a lot of that's what this, this is about, and me detoxing from needing fulfillment and validation outside of myself, detoxing from needing it from Will, my marriage, my family, a career. Like, I had to get to the bare bones of Jada and walk what I call the exiled lands. And those exiled lands are going into the crevices of, you know, those places within that were holding me back from myself. All the fears, all of the false information and false ideas of what life is and what a marriage is supposed to be, and you know, who I was supposed to be, what a wife is, like all of it.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:19 Perfectionism.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:24:21 Perfectionism. And then I just went off to be completely imperfect and took joy in that.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:30 'Cause being in Hollywood, I mean, this is a place that values the appearance of perfectionism. Like everybody looks perfect on the surface.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:24:37 Yeah. And I think it's not a healthy idea. It's just not healthy, and it's not true, and nobody can live up to that, you know? Which is why I've been dismantling that need to be perfect for myself, and that's been a painful ride, but...

Steven Bartlett 1:25:04 Leading up to your 40th birthday-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:25:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:07 ... which is also where the book starts-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:25:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:10 ... I- I read the first pages of the prologue, and I couldn't quite believe what I was reading.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:25:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:15 Because the place you're at in your life, this...... chronic state of discontent that you describe. I, I remember when I got to the chapter 17 in the book, which is No Soccer Mom Here, that was the first time I had to stop reading because it was a lot, a lot for me to take.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:25:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:35 Hearing that that's what was going on in your head and your mind, that's the way you viewed life, you didn't see any path forward for you. Um, you're 39 years old, um, apparently, you know, on the surface it seems like you've got everything that anyone would dream of having. But internally, there's this chronic state of discontent.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:25:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:59 If

Steven Bartlett 1:26:00 I was... I often say to people, if I was a fly on the wall, but if I was a fly inside the walls-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:26:03 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:06 ... what were you, what was going through your mind? 39 years old, about to turn 40?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:26:11 Oh, I was, I was in a very, very dark place. Very dark place.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:21 Just, I remember the line I read where you said, "If I got to 4:00 PM every day..."

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:26:26 I was like, "I made it. I made it." And even that was, like, so hard. I mean, you know, I was talking to my mother this morning 'cause she just read the book and she said, "I can't believe you didn't talk about how you woke up every day crying."

Steven Bartlett 1:26:43 Really?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:26:44 Yeah. And I was like, "You know, Ma, I, I just, I think it was enough to tell people that I was looking for a cliff to drive off of." You know? And what she brought up was like, she knew I was unhappy, but she didn't know why. So it wasn't that people around me didn't know that I was really unhappy, it's just that everybody believed what I believed, which is why it was so hard for me to talk about, which is like, "You've got everything. What are you unhappy about?" Right? And so that's how I was feeling. "You've got everything. What are you unhappy about?" And that was just... I had so much shame around that 'cause I didn't understand. And even then, there wasn't a lot of conversation around mental health. And so I was just like, "Fuck it. I can't keep doing this. I want out." And it was just a really, really dark time.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:00 When you say you were looking for a cliff to drive off of, you're not saying that theoretically or as a metaphor?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:28:05 No, I'm saying I was looking... to the point where I was like, Big Sur. I knew exactly the route to drive and it's this really narrow route and sometimes it gets really foggy there at night. And you... I'm not, I'm not making it out of that, out of that drop. I, I remember driving that one time, going to Big Sur, 'cause I was looking, like, here, like a mom and I was like, "These drops aren't gonna..." Like, "I need a drop that I'm not making it back. I don't wanna be disfigured. I don't want... I want out." And I knew I had to make it look like an accident 'cause I did not want my kids to think that I had committed suicide. No, I was, I was... Yeah. I was in a lot of pain. I was in a really, really dark place. And when you're in that place, you just can't see your way out. And you really think... I really thought something was really wrong with me because what I was feeling wasn't matching the exterior of my life. So I really did feel like I w- I was just born broken. That I was just wired in a way that just...

Steven Bartlett 1:29:37 What was the truth? If that's how you felt, what was... In hindsight now, what do you know to be the truth of that emotion and that state of your life? 39, 40 years old, what was actually going on?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:29:50 That... I really feel like that sometimes when we get into these states of wanting to die, you know, for those of us who have had, like, suicidal thoughts and what have you, sometimes it is chemical. That's a different thing. I think mine was more psychological. Something is asking to die, but not you. And it's a, it's, it's a different way of looking at things, right? And so... And that, it's, it is a, it is a extreme shift in which I had to get out of my cycle of self-hatred. I was in a cycle of self-hatred that I didn't even know, 'cause we're unconscious of it. So the mind is tricking us, you know what I mean? We gotta be careful with this. This isn't as reliable as we think, you know? And so, um... But I was in a, I was in a cycle of self-hatred and it wasn't until...

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:31:08 thank God for my son, that I was... you know, he introduced me. Um, his friend's father did ayahuasca and they happened to be talking about it and they talked to me about it. Jayden came in the kitchen, he was like, "You gotta sit down with Moises and Mateo. You gotta hear about this experience, Ma, that their dad had."

Steven Bartlett 1:31:30 Was Jayden saying that intentionally? Did he know that you needed that?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:31:32 No. He wasn't saying that intentionally.

Steven Bartlett 1:31:33 He was just curious.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:31:34 He was just... He knows I'm curious. He knows I'm a seeker.

Steven Bartlett 1:31:37 Right, right.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:31:38 ... right? That was divine. And so I went and talked to them, and I was like, "Hey, is your dad in town?" And then their dad came and I talked to him, and he, I was like, "I need that." And then the universe opened up a door for me to have my own ceremony. Four days of, like, intense, tense ceremony, but that's when I got to see that cycle of self-hatred. I was like, "This is you. These are your thoughts. This is how you feel about yourself. This is the problem." And so the medicine really showed me this pit of self-hatred I was in, and it helped me get out of it.

Steven Bartlett 1:32:35 Chapter 20 of the book, you, you titled Surrender.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:32:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:32:39 Surrender's an interesting word. Why is surrender so important in your journey?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:32:43 You have to surrender everything you think you are and everything you think you know.

Steven Bartlett 1:32:48 I've spoken to a lot of people that have done Alcoholics Anonymous, and they talk about the importance of surrender.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:32:53 Surrender, yeah. It's like surrendering, you know, for me, also surrendering to a pow- a higher power.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:01 Hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:02 And that's a constant. That's every day. I have to remind myself and deepen my surrender to a power far greater than myself.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:14 Chapter 21, The Holy Joke, The Holy Slap, and The Holy Lessons. It's interesting because there's similarities between chapter 19 and chapter 21 in that you took a lot of the blame-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:27 ... for situations. Chapter 19, The Entanglement Conversation.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:34 Because when you watch that clip online at the, at the Red Table, Will looks tired-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:39 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:33:39 ... and he looks sad-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:40 ... and he says that thing. He says, "I'm gonna get you back."

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:43 It did- it made it look like you had cheated on him or something.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:45 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:45 I had to check the facts because if you see that clip in isolation, it looks like you cheated on Will or something-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:50 ... which is not what happened.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:52 But you put that out anyway. You put-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:54 I did.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:54 You could've not put that out.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:56 I know.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:56 D'you regret putting that out?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:57 No.

Steven Bartlett 1:33:58 You don't?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:33:58 I don't. If I didn't put that out, I wouldn't have seen that next place of healing that I needed. Because I can take so much, like,

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:34:15 discomfort. It wasn't until I saw how the people around me were affected. I mean, my mother, my kids, my friends, people, like... They were like, "How could you do this?" And I was like, "Well, I just wanted to end everything, you know. Will wasn't ready for the world to know that we weren't together and that we were living separate lives, and I just took it because I just want it to stop, I just want it to end." People were like, "No!" My mother was like, "What are you d-" She was like, "You need to get your ass in therapy." (laughs) She was like, "You are codependent as hell." You know? And everybody was just so... And then how people that love me so much were affected by that time. I don't think it would've penetrated and for me to really look at that part of myself if it hadn't been for how the people around me reacted, 'cause I don't really care about public in that way like most people do. I don't whatever, 'cause I understand the chaos and the just absurdity of all of that. But people who love me, I needed that mirror to see that place of healing that needed to happen in me, in the dynamic within myself.

Steven Bartlett 1:35:59 What was that dynamic within yourself?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:01 Just like martyrdom.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:03 Oh, okay, throwing yourself under the-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:05 ... yeah.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:05 That martyrdom that I'm, I will...

Steven Bartlett 1:36:07 Martyrdom. The Holy Slap.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:10 You, you, you write about in the book how you didn't realize that Will had actually slapped Chris-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:14 ... until much later. You thought it, you suspected maybe it was a skit or a joke.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:17 I thought it was a skit, and then I realized it wasn't, but I didn't think that he actually made contact with Chris. It looked like he ducked it.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:24 Social media grabbed onto this eye roll.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:28 And they, um, social media believed that that eye roll was some kind of like-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:32 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:36:33 ... "Go get him, Will."

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:35 Yeah. (laughs) And even if it was, it was like, I can't force Will to do anything, you know?

Steven Bartlett 1:36:39 You and Will weren't together.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:41 We weren't together as, you know... We were family.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:45 Yeah.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:45 I was there with him as family, but we weren't together at that time.

Steven Bartlett 1:36:50 Were you surprised by the reaction and to that moment, both for you but also for Will? I don't-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:36:58 Yes and no. I was surprised at how much... I knew I was gonna get blame, but, like, I didn't think that it was gonna be... I, I mean, it was insane, you know. It was like, wow. Um, but I knew, I knew we would have- I knew it was gonna be a storm.

Steven Bartlett 1:37:17 In the book, you say protection is your love language.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:37:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:37:20 He protected you, didn't he?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:37:22 Um...

Steven Bartlett 1:37:23 Did you see that as a act of love?

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:37:28 You know, it's a really complicated moment. It's a really complex moment. I will say yes and no in a certain manner, you know. Um-But I definitely think in his way. But it was, it was so much more... It wasn't about me. That's why it's complex, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:37:52 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:37:52 It's like it was about a lot more than just that moment, a lot more than just me.

Steven Bartlett 1:38:01 Mm-hmm.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:38:01 That's what I know. You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 1:38:03 'Cause you know Will and you know where he's come from and...

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:38:05 Yeah, and I- I... There was a lot that was stirring up for him at that time because of emancipation, and he and Chris have their own history.

Steven Bartlett 1:38:15 Going back to the '80s.

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:38:16 Yeah, going back to the '80s, and it's a deep one.

Steven Bartlett 1:38:21 Jada, thank you. Thank you for writing this book, because it's- it's not until we understand people's context that we understand them, and when we understand them, we realize that they are just so much like us-

Jada Pinkett Smith 1:38:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:38:34 ... in th- the wounded, the imperfect, the survival, the defense, and all of those things. And that's exactly what I got from reading Worthy. Um, but also, as I said to you, I think, before we started recording, there were so many moments in there that acted as the advice that no one around me could've given me because they've not walked in those stairs. Y- you act as an elder to