The Diary of a CEOJada Pinkett Smith: “I Just wanted to stay alive until 4pm!”
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,100 words- 0:00 – 0:21
Intro
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I was in a cycle of self-hatred, and it was just a really dark time. I want out, and I knew I had to make it look like an accident, 'cause I did not want my kids to think that I had committed su... su... Please welcome Jada Pinkett
- 0:21 – 3:01
🌟 Jada Pinkett Smith's early life and growing up on the streets of Baltimore
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Smith.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jada, I knew you as a Hollywood actress. I never knew you were the daughter of two drug-addicted parents and a teenage drug dealer yourself on the streets of Baltimore.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I really thought I was gonna be the next big time female drug dealer. I was absolutely fearless. But getting two 9mm's pointed at you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
They pointed two guns at you?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
That's a big wake-up call.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What happened?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Somebody set me up. And then-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(dramatic music playing)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
... I had to always have this tough exterior. Now-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(dramatic music playing)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
... as I'm dismantling my defenses, I'm in a really raw place.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The holy slap, what happened?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I knew I was gonna get blame, but like it was insane.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You say protection is your love language. Did you see that as a act of love? The entanglement conversation?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
We broke up. And then what did you do, Jada? My mother, my kids, they were like, "How could you do this?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you regret putting that out?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Honestly- (music crescendos)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've got this wonderful picture that I found.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Oh, I know that picture. Do you know why this is relevant?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I let it go back to when we played as kids, but things changed.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. I lost them back to back.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's the way it is. I just wanna start this episode with a message of thanks. A thank you to everybody that tunes in to listen to this podcast. By doing so, you've enabled me to live out my dream, but also for many members of our team to live out their dreams too. It's one of the greatest privileges I could never have dreamed of or imagined in my life, to get to do this, to get to learn from these people, to get to have these conversations, to get to interrogate them from a very selfish perspective, trying to solve problems I have in my life. So, I feel like I owe you a huge thank you for being here and for listening to these episodes and for making this platform what it is. Can I ask you a favor? I can't tell you how much, um, you can change the course of this podcast, the, the, the course of the guests we're able to invite to the show, and to the course of everything that we do here just by doing one simple thing. And that simple thing is hitting that subscribe button. Helps this channel more than I could ever explain. The guests on this platform are incredible because so many of you have hit that button. And I know when we think about what we wanna do together over the next year on this show, a lot of it is gonna be fueled by the amount of you that are subscribed and that tune into this show every week. So, thank you. Let's keep doing this. And I can't wait to see what this year brings for this show, for us as a community, and for this platform. (dramatic music) Jada?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I always believe that in order to understand someone, you have to understand their context. And having read through the entirety of your book, there was this line that stood out to me, which I think might be,
- 3:01 – 9:29
🏡 Jada's childhood and experiencing domestic violence
- SBSteven Bartlett
might summarize the most important part of your earliest context, which is, "When I go in search of the origins of my broken heart, it is the sense of not being the priority to the two people who gave me life that creates a fracture in my feeling of worth."
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why did you write that line?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Because it's true, you know? It's like our parents are like our first mirrors. And so, my parents were really young when they had me. I mean, my mom was 17, right? 17, 18. She was 17 when she was pregnant. I think she was 18 by the time she had me. So, youth on top of addiction. And I just realized, you know, as I was going through my life and different therapeutic settings, I was like, "Oh, wow, like the first mirror I had was kind of nonexistent in a way." Because drugs were my parents' priority, you know, during my upbringing. And so, I didn't really get the reflection of feeling like a priority to the people who brought me into the world. Now, thank goodness my grandmother came into the picture, you know? And she really, she was a, a beautiful, powerful mirror for me, that, you know, even to my, you know... It's still a mirror for me to this day, um, where I could see myself. I could see the beauty of myself. I could see my gifts and my talents was through her and what she was reflecting back to me. But, um, I think it's important that... I think it's important, if it's possible, for children to feel that sense of, um, that sense of importance, that sense of priority from their parents.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, I had an air of sort of loneliness as I read through the pages. This kind of lonely young girl who was searching to be recognized and loved and to, someone to sort of hold her hand and guide her through those early years. And other than in your grandmother's garden and with your grandmother, it, it felt like that place of home was never, was never really there.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, I definitely had it with my grandmother. And then once she passed, that's when I took to the streets to like figure out finding my home, finding my tribe, finding my power, finding my identity, finding my purpose, finding my worth. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your dad-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... Rob.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
He, um, he took you for a walk one day and explained to you why he couldn't be your father.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
He did. I was seven and, um, he just said, he said, "Look, I'm a, I'm an addict and a criminal and I can't be your father." And I was like... Now mind you, he hadn't really been in my life that much anyway. I didn't really know... He wasn't present in my, in my life enough for me to even know what it was like to have a father. But what I did appreciate in that moment was like, "Wow, just thank you. Thank you for, like, being honest." Now, I didn't realize at that time, because I was so young, how that would affect my relationships with men ongoing, you know, as an adult woman. Um, but yeah, in that moment, I was just like, "Thank you. Somebody is, like, being honest with me. I'm not crazy. Something is absolutely not right here and he's letting me know what that is." And he's saying, "Hey, I'm gonna keep my distance." You know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
10 years old, 12, 13 years old, what does Jada think she's gonna be when she grows up?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
At 10, 11, 12, 13, I- I definitely was like, I wanted to be an artist. Definitely wanted to be an actress.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You wanted to be an actress?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, I did. I did. I wanted to be an actress. I started very young. I was doing theater. Um, I think my first professional gig was, like, seven years old as one of Madame Bonbon's children in The Nutcracker. Um, and then I was in, you know, different theatrical programs in the summertime and what have you, and then the, uh, when I got the opportunity to join TWIGS, which prepared you for Baltimore School for the Arts, I joined that after-school program. So arts has always been a big part of my life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you know why? 'Cause whe- as I read through those early years of your life, it seemed that acting was doing something, the, the performance, the being on stage, the, the validation I think it was giving you was doing something for you that it might not have done for someone else who hadn't walked the steps you'd walked up until that point.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
The validation, but also an outlet. It was a real outlet for me, where I was able to express certain feelings that I didn't feel like I had the permission to express at home. Um, and, um, it was a huge... it was a huge outlet for me in that way. I mean, to the point that (laughs) my theater teachers would often tell me, um, you know, they'd try to steer me into, like, more... "Why don't you try more comedic roles?" You know, I was always going for the very dramatic, very highly emotional, you know, uh, roles. Um, and my... I just remember my theater teachers always trying to guide me into diversifying (laughs) the monologues that I would choose, uh, for, for my pieces to work on in class.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I read, um, I read some books, I think one of them was called The Body Holds the Score-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... which talks about the role that acting can play as sort of a therapy.
- 9:29 – 16:02
🎭 Using Acting As An Escape
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's so... It seems to not be a coincidence that the amount of actors I've sat here and spoke with who have pretty, um, unthinkable early childhood experiences, domestic violence in the home, et cetera, that then find acting as an outlet for a form of escapism, almost escaping their identity, embodying a different role.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Absolutely. Totally agree. Totally agree.
- SBSteven Bartlett
As I read it in your story, I was like, "Not another one." (laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
(laughs) Yes, another one. It's classic. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I- I reflect on some of the words you wrote in the early part of the book where you're talking about your mother and your father-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... there being domestic violence in the home at an early age, your mother running out of the house, dropping you on the floor because Rob had punched her.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I believe your father had punched her.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The- these are stories I guess you've heard after the fact from your mother.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But I guess you believe those moments leave a mark.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Absolutely. I mean, my mother talks about it to this day, and will choke up. She'll, you know, cry. It's like, it's- it's... You don't get over things in the sense of, like, it's forgotten. You know, you learn to cope with it. You heal in a certain manner, but it still can leave a certain imprint upon you. Um, and even hearing those stories are not easy, you know, even as an adult, because she didn't really give me the details until I was... I mean, my kids were daggone near adults before she shared with me the level of violence that she dealt with with my dad.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did it help you understand yourself? Did it help you connect dots?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I don't know if it helped me understand myself as much as it helped me understand my mother, and then that helped me understand a lot of how her journey has imprinted upon me in a certain manner, you know? So I guess it does, if you t- you know, through, through my mother and her journey, it helped me understand her journey, which has affected me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
So yeah, I guess you could say that it helped me understand myself more.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I say that 'cause I sat with, um, you know Gabor Mate? Gabor, Gabor Mate?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, I do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The metaphor-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, yeah, yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He was the, he's the person that opened my eyes to the fact that even the things that occurred when we are babies-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... we interpret them to mean, um, certain things about ourselves. And he says babies are incredibly selfish, so for example, if the parents are arguing, the baby will interpret that as-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... a reflection of them.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- 16:02 – 20:21
💔 Why Jada turned to drug dealing
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
wanna depend on anybody, I can't depend on anyone. And so the streets, that's where I saw security because we didn't have doctors and lawyers, you know, to look upon. You know, like, that's the aspiration, right? Because in our neighborhoods, that's what we had. We had hustlers.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Right? And they had the good life. So you could be a hustler or you could be a hustler's girlfriend. I wasn't trying to be the girl. Wasn't trying to be the girlfriend. And so I looked to, to that lifestyle to offer me the security that I didn't have at home. It was an opportunity for me to create that security that I didn't have at home.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Security, protection, safety.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
These are all words that appear over and over-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and over again (laughs) in your book. (laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I know, right? Yeah. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
From childhood to adulthood, those are the, the most-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
That was it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... recurring words. (laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you, you found that security in part through a lifestyle of drug dealing yourself.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, which again, uh, I said to you before we started recording, Jada, that I knew of you as a Hollywood actress. You know, that's what I, that's what I knew of you of. I'm not someone that's hugely involved in media or TV or movies, so that's what I thought. I never in my life had I thought of you as the daughter of two, um, drug addicted parents who had chosen their addiction over you, and I never knew that you started dealing drugs when you were-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... very, very young. Were you, were you not scared dealing drugs in Baltimore and... (sighs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You, you don't have time to be scared. That environment was a war zone, right? And so it's like stuff was popping off all the time. So you just get used to a certain level of violence, you get used to a certain level of, um-... just vigilance because that's what you're given, so you just learn to adapt to that kind of environment. So the levels, what, what somebody might consider dangerous, for me, was just normal. It wasn't like, "Ooh, I'm going into something crazy here." You know? It's like, "Well, shit, everything's crazy. So what?" Right? So I look at it now and I go, "What in the world?" You know? But I have a- I'm living a different reality. In that time, when I was living that reality, that's what life was. And everybody, that's what we were all living.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were there moments that were wake-up calls?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Hell yeah. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you were dealing drugs.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Listen, getting two 9mm's pointed at you at one time, and one to your head, that's a, that... You would think that's a big wake-up call.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jada, we don't all know what 9mm is. (laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Oh, you know I... (laughs) Guns, you know. It's two big guns, you know. Glocks.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When did that happen?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Um, I had to be 17, 17, 17 years old because that was my senior year of high school.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what, what was the reason that someone pointed two guns at your head?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I was... I had, uh, posted up in this, in the projects, in this apartment on the bottom floor where I would sell drugs out of the window or through the door of that particular apartment, and somebody set me up. To make a long story short, somebody set me up and, um, as I was making the exchange through the door that had the chain on it, two guys from the side of the door, which I couldn't see 'cause I'm looking through the peephole, two guys from the side of the door come around and kick the door
- 20:21 – 25:11
🌆 The moment that changed Jada's perspective on life
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
in, and pull out guns, point them to me, and take all my money, my jewelry, and stash. And I was really lucky to make it out of that alive, for sure, because the person who led that robbery ended up killing two drug dealers, um, two weeks or a month after. Put them in a, uh, put them in a trunk, shot the trunk up and, uh, murdered two guys and, um, he ended up doing life for that. But, uh, I could tell as he was leaving, you know, y- it's so interesting when you're in moments like that. I can still see his eyes as he's leaving me and how he's making a choice in the moment of what he's gonna do with me, and by the grace of God, he left me there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Well, when, and of course, I, you know, my crazy self, because of who... Because of the protection that I was under at the time, I called that person and I was like, "I just got robbed." He knew exactly, he knew exactly. He's like, "I know who this is. Don't worry about anything." Um, and I was like, "I want my shit back." And so, (laughs) we actually, um... That person whose wing I was under, he made for a meeting, for us to meet in that area a couple of days later. He was like, "You're not gonna get your money back. You're not gonna get the drugs back, but maybe there might be some pieces of jewelry of yours that he'll, you know, he hasn't sold yet." And that's... He was exactly right. He had, you know, a couple chains, whatever, and I told... I asked him, I said, "You know, why'd you just leave me there?" Like, and he said, "You were too pretty." And that was the first time, and I talk about this in the book. That was the first time that I was like, "Well, maybe I am pretty because..." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I was like, "Maybe I am pretty because..." You know, he... 'Cause this, this was a stone cold killer and I talk about even when I met him, how he looked like he had, he had never felt any kind of love in his life, and I'm just... I- I don't know what kind of crazy nut I was at that time. I was just so... All I could say is just out of my mind, like I was just in such an altered reality. I- I- I really thought I was gonna be the next queen pin, first of all. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Again, a lot of people don't know what a queen pin is, Jada.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, well, you know, I thought I was gonna be the next, you know, like, big time female drug dealer, you know, and I really had... I- I was, I- I was crazy. I absolutely was just a nut because I had no fear whatsoever. I was absolutely fearless to be rolling with these wolves like this, and like it was nothing, like it was absolutely nothing. I think about that today, I think of my, my daughter. I'm like, "What the..." Like... I don't know. All I can... And that's when I know and I think back on everything that I've been through, I was like, "There is a God for sure." There's a God 'cause that dude, for me to even wanna see his face again was like, "I want my shit back," and he had it, he had it for me. He was like, "There you go." (laughs) You know? And so, um, but it prepared me for Hollywood. It prepared me. It prepared me big time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
It prepared me in a way because I was running with killers. That's- it's as simple as that, right? So the Hollywood flex...You know, dudes who were presenting themselves as, like, these powerful, you know, "If you don't do what I say..." Like, bruh, honestly, it- it- it just didn't resonate that way for me. I just looked at it, I looked at all of that as just kinda, like, puppy play.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It didn't resonate with you, but from the words you describe in your book about how you were received in Hollywood, it appears that Hol- you didn't resonate with Hollywood either.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
(laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
For a while I did not, yeah, for a minute.
- SBSteven Bartlett
This rough around the edges.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Rough around the edges, yeah. Because, I mean, it- it was
- 25:11 – 25:51
🌟 Jada Pinkett Smith's transition to Hollywood
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
part of what was refreshing for a lot of people-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
... but it was also the thing that was standoffish too, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is that?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Um, I think just that, that edge that I came with, that no f- you know, having no fucks to give, basically, it was just like, "I'm here to do me. What?" (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You know? And I got something to offer, and if you can't see it, well then that's on you. Your loss. You know, just that kinda attitude, and just kinda like, you know, I wasn't your prim, proper, uh, demure young lady, you know? It was just
- 25:51 – 29:29
🚀 How to thrive in different contexts throughout life
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
kinda like, I was just rough, rugged, and rambunctious.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's interesting, isn't it, in life, how a certain type of demeanor or attitude or mindset can help us to survive and thrive in one context, but sometimes we need to figure out how to turn that shit off. (laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
(laughs) Yes! And that's what I had to learn to do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause you weren't in survival anymore, and-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I wasn't in survival anymore-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
... you know? And I talk about this in the book, you know, how Warren Beatty, bless him, he was probably one of the first people that was just like, "Hey, you're in Hollywood now, okay? I get it. But why don't you allow people to see some other aspects, that charm you have, that smile you have? Like, let's take that, let's take that chip off your shoulder a little bit." You know? And he was the first person really to talk to me in a way that wasn't, like, making me wrong, right? He didn't make me wrong for being who I was. He was just like, "There's so much more to you. Let people see that." You know? And that was the first time I actually listened, 'cause he didn't make me wrong. And I bet you Warren has no idea that how, how much that conversation and the time that he spent with me really meant to me. It was really awesome because he was, he was so respectful and he really honored where I sat and where... B- you, you didn't get that often in Hollywood. It was just like, "No, you gotta change this. You gotta do this different. You, you'll never get jobs like that." And I was just like, "Ugh. Well, then I won't work," 'cause, you know, I was very rebellious sometimes in that way. Um, but yeah, he really, that really stuck with me. And from that day on, I just started on the journey of trying to figure out how to not lose myself, but also feel, find a way to feel safe to take that approach. Because like I said, I was around wolves all the time, so I had to always be on guard. I had to always have this tough exterior. I always had to carry the attitude like, "I'm not the one. You don't wanna come over here."
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's interesting 'cause when you... Putting up such a barrier to defend yourself, um, can often make us quite hard to form-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... connections, right?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yes, absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the reason I paused there is 'cause I'm thinking about what you said in the book after Tony left you, who was your mother's new husband. He left abru- abruptly after playing the role o- of a father. And you said the line about, um, "The rejection was brutal. Something broke inside me. My grief was oceanic. I put a- on a li- I put it on a library shelf labeled 'Unlovable' and I tried to leave it there." That's anot- another word that comes up over and over again, this word unlova- unlovable. And it's funny 'cause when people are... When they feel unlovable themselves, they do often put up these walls which make them... It's almost like self-fulfilling, it's-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Right. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you know?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's the essence of what I felt in Jada when she arrives in Hollywood as this person who's got this sort of little bit of a tough exterior up, but not because, not because she's not, you know...
- 29:29 – 37:34
🤯 Jada's relationship with Tupac Shakur
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. Not because I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You know, it was really just, it was, it was so many things I was trying to protect.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It was defense, not offense is what I'm saying.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, it was. And, and I still to this day, you know, people, like, you know... (laughs) I still to this day have to, like, manage that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
... because it's just, it's just in me. It's just part of me. It's some- because it was such a, um... It was, yeah, it, it was something that was built at the foundation, you know? It was in my DNA.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Default, isn't it?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yes, my default. So it's like... And I, I do it well. I can just... You won't know anything that's going on. But like you said, it's like, well then, you don't give yourself an opportunity to make the connections that you really wanna have.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you're gonna be misunderstood.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Stood. Yeah. All the time. Which, that is like... That has been my life too, just misunderstood.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Another thing I learned from reading the book, which is going to shock you that I didn't know, but this shows how little I am tuned into media and Hollywood and all that-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Good for you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is your relationship with Tupac.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Oh, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He comes over, introduces himself.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, first day of school, Baltimore School for the Arts. And, um, as, as soon as I walk in, he's holding court, he's holding court. He's a cha- like, he's a charismatic from day one. He's holding court and I'm like, "Who's, who's that peanut head dude over there?" You know. And I'm coming in, I'm rocking, you know, I'm Jada. I'm walking in, I got the rat tail, I got the fly clothes, you know. And he turns and we ... our eyes just meet and I'm like, "Oh," and then, you know, I- I'm g- I'm gonna hold my court, you know what I'm saying? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
And so then he comes over, you know, I just b- and I'm like, "Okay, cool. Yeah, whatever." And so he comes over and he's like, "Hey, I'm Tupac." And I'm like, "Tupac?" The name from the gate was just like, I never heard a name like that before. That was such a powerful different name. And I was like, "Tupac?" And he had this big smile. And I was like, it's not a lot of people that have that kind of, like, charisma and courage to just walk up on me on just like, "I'm Tupac." I'm ... You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You need to know me. You know? And from the g- right from there, inseparable. We became the best of friends from that moment on. We just connected. It was as if we already knew each other. It's crazy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
P- people will find it hard to believe that at that age and that environment, it wasn't a romantic thing.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I know. People have had a really hard time, you know, understanding that. Pac and I had a hard time understanding why it just didn't ... we didn't have it. And I talk about it in the book, you know, that being on the back of porch of my house and we're like having this discussion, I'm like, "Okay, Pac, just kiss me." And he kisses me and it's the most disgusting kiss-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
... between us both. I mean, he pulled back just like ... and I pulled back and I was like, "See? Dummy." You know? And from there it was just like ... and then there was one more time he kissed me and it was just like ... and I talk about that in, in jail when I go to see him in Dannemora. That's a whole another thing. And once again, it's just like, "Dude. Doesn't work." But throughout our relationship, we definitely had this beautiful closeness that was really intimate but never physically intimate. A lot of emotional intimacy, a lot of, um, intellectual intimacy. Um, we just knew how to reach each other in ways that was very difficult. We knew how to get around each other's walls and we didn't get offended when we would fall into our defaults of defense, which could be pretty fierce between the two of us. He was quite, uh, a powerhouse and so was I. We could be very challenging when we got riled up. So arguments, we were very passionate but because we were one and the same in that way, we kind of understood that language. It's like, "Ah, this joker does it."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You know what I mean? So we didn't get offended a lot until one particular time which comes later in the book.
- 37:34 – 41:14
😎 What made Tupac special
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
some truths people could rock with, with them and some truths you couldn't, you know what I mean? And, um, but regardless, it was what was real for him at that time. He was always authentic.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it's not easy, it comes with a cost, right?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
It comes with a cost.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because it's almost the opposite of conformity in a way, authenticity.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, exactly, and he was a rebel in that way and I think people really ... At, at, at, at points in his career, you know, he could speak, he would speak for the community and then at points of his career, he would speak from that, that really intimate place of wounded-ness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Dear Mama.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. You know that so many of us related to. Nobody was speaking to us in that way that could, that could go from Ambitions of a Rider, to shed so many tears, to A Soldier's Story? Come on. (scoffs) Come on. You know, to, I mean, he had so... He could speak to us from so many different angles.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That is just the evidence of authenticity, isn't it? Because people are multifaceted in their nature. No one is just Ambition of a Rider, like-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We are all, all the shades.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
All, all the shades, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
But rap, rap music, especially back then, it was very narrowing. It was like, "This is how to be a rapper."
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, someone willing to be authentic... It's funny, I've seen this over and over again, they, they are the most resonant people in the world because they represent us in a way that a lot of others aren't brave enough to represent us in. That's also what vulnerability does.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's what, uh, you do as well in this book.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Well, thank you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because, because you're willing to lay it all out, we can relate to, many people will be able to relate to many parts of you. And, you know, without books like this, we get narrow views and those narrower views, th- I mean, those are crafted by other people and they're the least relatable narratives.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, and we're all so multi-dimensional.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You move to LA, you're working three jobs, you start trying to climb into the ladder of Hollywood. Um, at this point, you, you meet a certain Fresh Prince.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
The savior prince.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The savior prince.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Oh, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I was quite shocked by, I think of, I think of Will Smith, I think charismatic, he's a good-looking guy.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You didn't seem to think that weird.
- 41:14 – 45:10
💑 Jada's first impressions of Will Smith
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
taught me. It was like, not to judge a book by its cover, and I learned that, you know, years later when we had an opportunity to have a, you know, we had a mutual friend and so we were able to share some time at Jerry's Deli over a meal and I got to see a totally different side of him.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Dwayne?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Dwayne Martin.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He went to that jacket potato place.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, The Baked Potato, mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was it about, what did you see in Will that night? I found it really interesting because one of the things that you described seeing in him was someone who quite, was quite adamant in taking over the world.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. He was so ambitious, you know, and in such a beautiful way. He had big dreams, big dreams, and, um, and he was so joyful. He was really joyful but grounded, and that was the part that I missed. He was grounded. It was like he'd been through some things and he's really intelligent, so he's what you call s- you know, he could go from the hood to the White House and everywhere in between. Right? And I always find people like that fascinating that have a wide range within them.... places that they can go. You know, you drop Will anywhere and he's gonna figure it out and fit in.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He had asked you to be his onscreen girlfriend, hadn't he?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
He-
- SBSteven Bartlett
In The Fresh Prince.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Okay, yeah. So I auditioned for Fresh Prince, I think it was the second year, to play one of his girlfriends and they were like, "You're too short." And I was like, "All right. Well, cool." Right? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
And so that was the first time that I actually met Will. I came out of the, the casting and he was, you know, coming into the casting office or about to leave or something, and he was like, "Hey." I was like, "Yeah, what's up?" You know, I was like, "No need to talk to me. They already said I'm, I'm short." You know? So I'm on my way and then ... And I think I w- I think I was probably about 20, um, and he wanted, he, he wanted me to play his, you know, his girlfriend as a series regular. So he flew into North Carolina to meet me and I was like, "Nah, I'm gonna do movies now." And he was like, "All right, cool."
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's a, that's a bold, that's a big rejection-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to reject the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air when he says you can be his sort of recurring, onscreen girlfriend in a hit show and you say, "TV's not for me. I'm gonna focus on movies." Big call.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Well, I had just done it. I had just come off of A Different World.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
And I knew, like, I had the protection of Debbie Allen on A Different World, right? And so when I wanted to make moves, Debbie was there to help me. That's not to say that I would have that same assistance on Fresh Prince and at that time, they locked you in.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You couldn't do anything. You know what I mean? They have you for six years, they got you locked and I, I just didn't wanna be locked like that. And so I really wanted to try my hand at doing movies and then Duane Martin, when I turned Will down, Duane Martin got on me 'cause he felt the same way you did. It was just like, "It's financial security. How could you let something like this go?" And, you know, "Who's to say when your next starring move-, you know, role is gonna come in?" And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I was like ... But I'm so glad that I didn't take that role 'cause I tell you what, if I had taken that role, Will and I would not have been married and I wouldn't have had Jaden and Willow
- 45:10 – 54:11
💔 Experiencing an emotional breakdown
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
and been Trey's bonus mom. My life would've been totally different.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you sure?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I'm positive. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
As in, you were sure that-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Positive.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you wouldn't have gotten married?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I'm positive. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because you would've seen-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Oh yeah, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You would've seen the red flags, would you? (laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Uh, listen (laughs) , no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Shh.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
(laughs) Yeah, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Earthquakes are hard to predict. Sometimes you feel tremors ahead of time. Often they come on suddenly and in your early 20s you had your first, maybe not even your first, but what you describe in the book as your first breakdown, personal earthquake when you're driving down the street one day. Mental health and psychiatry have come a long way since then. Um, I, I, I would guess that at the time, many people wouldn't have been able to tell you what that was.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I had no idea what was going on. Me just thinking about that moment, just, it's like, um ... I was so overwhelmed, you know, and I was like, I, I didn't know what was going on with me and it came over me in an instant. I was fine one moment, I'm turning my car around to meet a friend on the corner that, you know, I saw to say, and to say hello to her and all of a sudden, my body's shaking, all these emotions come over me and I, I'm like, I'm starting to cr- It's like waterfall of, like, tears and I-I'm like, and I have no idea, like my brain is not catching up to what is happening with my body. All I know is that this waterfall, this volcano of emotions, it was fear, anger, despair and I was like, "I, I gotta ..." And she was looking at me like, "Are you okay?" And I was like, "I, I don't know." I, you know, and I get in the car and I'm trying to drive and I'm like, "You can't drive. Pull over." And then I pull over and then I just remember feeling terrified to just let it go and I let it go and then I'm like, "I wanna die. I wanna die." And I remember making it home and all I could do was call my mother and say, "You gotta come here. I'm gonna kill myself." You know? And I think about that and I'm just like, "Wow." And my mother was like, she was maybe a year into her sobriety, right? And what a terrifying call to get. Like, if I get that call from Willow or Jaden or Trey, I'm just, you know, it's like ... And, um, so she's figuring out, because she just started a job at this hospital, I'm so terrified to be by myself, I call my homegirl, MC Lyte, and I tell her, I was like, "You gotta come out here. I'm afraid to be alone by myself. I'm gonna do something to myself." And she flies out and so she holds me down until my mother comes. It's a crazy moment.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you figured out what, what your body was telling you?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I think my body was telling me that... I think my mind was telling me, "Hey, we have some things we gotta pay attention to up here. Enough with, 'Let's keep it moving.' I'm gonna make it so you're not gonna just be able to keep it moving anymore. You have some things that you gotta pay attention to, some things that need to be addressed." And at the time, like you were just talking about, nobody was talking about mental health, at all. And specifically mental health was considered like a white people thing. Black people don't have mental health issues, right? And so suicide, for sure, was a white people thing. So I was real confused. I, I felt really... I felt like something is, is, has gone really, really, really wrong here because nobody else like me feels like this. Nobody knows what's going on and maybe I'm losing my mind, I'm actually going crazy, you know? So it was a scary time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I read about that, it sounded to me like you had been, you'd been playing defense for just a little bit too long.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, for sure. For sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's, I guess, one of the costs of the, the toughness, right? The like, as you say, "We'll just keep it moving."
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
We'll just keep it moving.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We'll just keep it moving.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Nobody's immune, are they?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
No. It's gonna catch you. You can deal with it or it will deal with you. Those are your choi- those are your two choices.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But you, you did keep it moving, even in that moment it seemed. It seemed like you, you c- carried on with the work, um, (smacks lips) I think you were, you were recommended to go and see a psychiatrist, right?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, I went to see a psychiatrist. They put me on, um, Prozac and I, I started therapy. I started therapy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it does still appear that you kept it moving because you, you kept working.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You didn't seem to wanna show anybody outside of your sort of inner circle that-
- 54:11 – 55:46
💔 How Jada and Tupac reconnected
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
going to continue working, but not live in LA anymore.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
And so I bought a farmhouse.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I bought a little farmhouse on, I wanna say it was about six acres, s- m- six or nine acres if I remember correctly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
And it was, um... I was gonna build a life there for myself in a little quiet corner and, you know, I was like, "All right, I'll... if I need to audition, I'll either go to New York or I can just fly back and forth from LA."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Heard Will was trying to hit you up at this, this point in your life.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, he hit me up. He had just...... Shereé had just sent him divorce papers. And, um, he decides to call me. And of course, me not knowing anything about marriage, thinking that marriage, you know, breakup of a marriage is like breaking up with a boyfriend. He's like, you know, um, "Where are you?" And I'm like, "I'm in Baltimore, you know, renovating my house." And he's like, "Are you seeing anybody?" And I'm like, "No." He's like, "Good, you're seeing me now." And I was like, "What?" (laughs) Once again, that kind of bold, you know, approach. I was just like, "Oh," clutched my pearls a little bit. So he was like, you know, "Call me when you get back to LA." So when I got back to LA, I called him, and we went out on our first date.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In and around that time, Pac had been sentenced to Rikers, right? He'd been sent in, sent to jail for-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
He'd been sent to... At that point in time, he was at Rikers,
- 55:46 – 1:02:30
💍 How Tupac proposed to Jada Pinkett Smith and their relationship
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
but then he was on his way to Dannemora.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which is a horrific place where they send terrorists-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... usually.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think the 9/11, some of the people that were involved with 9/11 or the World Trade Center bombings were sent to Dannemora. Um, while he's in jail... (paper rustling)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
While he's in jail. What do you have here? Oh. Yeah. "Now, as I slip from grace and the world has turned against me, a few claim to have love for me, but once again, you show your love. After deep reflection and spiritual awakening, I have come to realize the friend, love, and soulmate was there all the time. I've not seen or felt from anywhere or anyone the intensity and loyalty that you have shown me. That is why I want to commit myself to you. I want to marry you."
- SBSteven Bartlett
He sends you that letter?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, he, uh... It's a much longer letter than that, but that's the words that I put in the book.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A marriage proposal?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
That's while he was in Rikers. When I went to go see him in Rikers, and Rikers is actually... That's a really... Dannemora might be where they put terrorists. Rikers is like... (sighs) I remember going to see him there, and, um, he was in such bad shape, you know. And, um, I... The Rikers, I, like... Yeah, Rikers was bad. Dannemora, yeah, terrorists are there, but far more humane conditions than, I would say, Rikers.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It feels, it feels like the emotion is still right on the surface with you when you think back to these, these moments in your life.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Oh, yeah. I, it feels like I just came back from seeing Pac at Rikers, and I had to leave him there. It was just like yesterday. But I'm also in a very raw place in my life right now-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
... as I'm thawing out, as I'm dismantling my defenses.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You know, I call it the thaw-out. So I'm, I'm in a really raw place.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Obviously, Pac was... He gets out of jail, and Suge Knight... I mean, again talking about timing.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think it was like a week ago or two weeks ago that someone's been convicted for Tupac's murder. A lot of emotions.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did you feel when you heard about the, um, conviction, or that someone had... That arrested, had... An arrest had been made?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Um, I was like... I, I was glad that an arrest had been made. This was someone who we had known had been in the car. He, he had had done some street interviews about it, you know. Um, and I was just hoping, I was like, "Well, I hope they're bringing him in, because we're gonna get some other questions answered." So, you know, my hope is that we'll get more questions answered.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In the book, you question, but then you confirm that Pac, Tupac knew how you felt about him when he passed away because you and him hadn't been speaking.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I think there's a really important lesson in, in this for all of us.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. Yeah, we had a, we had a huge fight. Huge. It was one of the biggest fights we had ever had. And, um, and it was about how he had been living, you know. And, uh, I really, at that time, you know, really had to let him know my position, that I just felt like, you know, where he was sitting with everything was just... it wasn't gonna end up well, right? And we had a magnanimous... I mean, it was (laughs) just beyond the two of us, just at each other. Um, and I was just like, "Fuck that."I'm not calling him this time. He's gonna have to call me. He was way out of line, so I really dug my heels, heels in the ground in regards to like, nah. You know, I let my pride, I let my ego come in. I really took for granted that he would be living forever. Like, he had already survived so much, like it never, like I never... I, I looked at Pac as being invincible at this point, you know, 'cause he survived so much, even so much that people don't know about, you know. Um, but just like I say in the book, I'm like, "Man, don't do it. Don't do it. Don't, don't, don't hold on to, like, that prideful part of yourself, you know, when someone you really care about." Like, no,
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was that the last time you spoke to him (...)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
That was the last time I spoke to him. That was the last time I spoke to him. That was the last time I spoke to him. And you know what's crazy? It meant absolutely nothing. It meant absolutely nothing. And so that's the test I always have. I'm like, "Okay, you're in this beef with somebody. Will this beef matter on your deathbed?" And then right
- 1:02:30 – 1:16:29
💔 Why Jada and Tupac fell out and the importance of resolving conflicts
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
away I'm like, "Nope, let me give him a call." You know what I'm saying? That's my, that's my test.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Almost a year later, he gets shot in Las Vegas. You get a phone call while you're filming on set that he's... from, I believe from his mother.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Aafeni Shakur, and saying that he's in hospital in a coma. And a few days after that you find out that he's passed away.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, I was on my way. You know, Faye was like, "No rush, he's gonna be fine." Um, he had his fiance there with him and his family. Um, she was like, "So, you know, come after your trip in New York." So I was on my way to him, and my girlfriend, Fon, came to the door and she... me, I, I knew as soon as I saw her face that he was gone. Oh, I know that picture. (laughs) Yep, that was Thanksgiving. He came to LA to spend Thanksgiving with me. (laughs) And we were at one of my friend's house.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You look like brother and sister. (laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, we look like brother and sister, because that's what we were. Yeah, he came to Thanksgiving to spend Thanksgiving with me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We talked about mental health earlier. Do you, do you know how to grieve someone, the loss of someone like, like that in your life?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
No, I'm still, I'm still, um, working out my relationship with grief, actually. Yeah, I haven't, I haven't really... I, I... Yeah, I'm still working that out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because this chapter of your life was loss.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm, Unwarned Loss.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Chapter 12 of your book.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've got this other picture that I found that I thought was, um, relevant.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Oh. Now you, do you know why this is relevant?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I do. Maxine and, and Tupac are both in that picture.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
In the same picture. Yeah. Do you have a tissue? Thanks. Ah. Thank you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Thank you.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You give nice hugs. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're welcome, buddy.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Um, yeah, that's, uh... Yeah. Sorry.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's okay.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, I, um, I lost Maxine and Pac back to back. So I like to, you know... This picture, to be flanked by them. (laughs) Yeah, I lost 'em back to back.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Maxine was a good friend of yours. Um, Pac was your brother.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. And she was like my sister, you know. She, um... I met Maxine on Jason's Lyric and, uh, we became like super tight. And she lived in Canada, and so she wanted to come to Hollywood and make a career for herself, so I told her that she could come live with me, so she came to, to live with me. Um, she, we, we feel as though she, um, had a misdiagnosis, that she had some kind of thyroid disorder that really, um...... disrupted her psyche.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
And, uh, she ended up jumping off her mother's balcony. Committed, she committed suicide. Um, so that was really tough.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It seems, it seems unimaginable that that chapter and season of your life could be filled with so much loss and so much complicated loss.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know? Because in all these situations as you write about in the book, there are reflections where you, you say in the book, "If I..." Youknow you're left with this feeling, "If I'd done this, I could... Maybe I should've done it like this," or, "I wish I'd treated that situation differently." And hindsight, as we know, is a wonderful thing, isn't it?
- 1:16:29 – 1:19:42
❤️ The importance of balance in relationships and addressing issues
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
in, as couples we get into these power struggles. "No, my way is right." "No, my way is right." "Well, if you didn't have this," you know? You know, it, it gets into all of that. Right? And it's like, ah, stop. It's not about anybody being right or wrong. How do you get the balance of it? That's it. Right? And so, yeah. It took Will and I three decades. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jesus Christ. (laughs) I don't have that kind of time. (laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. Three decades. Okay? Three decades. That's what, we'll get to that. We'll get you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Explain that.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
It doesn't have to be that, you know? It's like, do it now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause that-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that's what I've said to my girlfriend is, I've told her that I've got this opportunity now because things are going well in my career, so I just wanna focus for now, and then we're gonna have all of our lives together. I actually said that to her one day, and she reminded me of it a week later when we were arguing.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was like, "We're gonna have all of our lives together, so like we'll connect later." Because it's-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah, "We'll connect later." It's like, "What?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
"What kind of foolishness is that?" You know what I mean? And I'm gonna tell you like this. I bet you when you're on your deathbed, you're not gonna think about whatever it is you're trying to accomplish and achieve. What do you think you're gonna think about most when you're on your deathbed?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
How you were loved and how you loved. No?
- SBSteven Bartlett
100%.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Okay. Why?
- SBSteven Bartlett
And even as I said it, I thought about Tupac and how you never know how long you've got left with someone.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You don't know. Why would you ever wanna wait and put that off?
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's an excuse, though, isn't it?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
It is an excuse, for sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
To justify my own toxic workaholism.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Well, you know, I wouldn't call it toxic.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I'm- I'm- I'm always careful with this word toxic-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
... (laughs) that we're throwing around, right? 'Cause we're all so wounded.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Exactly.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
And it's not ... Listen, when w- intimacy makes us have to look at our shit, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 1:19:42 – 1:22:53
🤔 Jada's resent in her marriage to Will Smith
- SBSteven Bartlett
yourself a little bit, it seems. This word resentful.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Very interesting word.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can you give color to that word, why you, why you chose to use that word?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
'Cause it's true. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You know? It was like I felt as though at that time... All right, if, if I'm- I- I wanna help you do all of those things. I'm here to help you with that. Right? Um, and I'm like, and in return, I should get a bit of what I want, which is connection. Right? And so you just, for me, just giving and giving and giving and giving and giving, and forgiving, forgetting. Well, not even forgetting, not realizing that I was abandoning myself in the hopes that if I just keep pouring into this, if I just keep pouring into him, if I keep pouring into his dream, I'm gonna eventually get what I want. Right? And that's a false idea, in so many ways, right? That I... And so many of us do that. If Will looked back and was trying to give me whatever the hell it was I was asking for, it- it- it wouldn't have, he wouldn't have been able to accomplish it anyway. Because if I'm not connected to myself, if I don't have a good relationship with me, there's nothing he can do. So I was gonna be assed out anyway, you know what I'm saying?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
So it's like, that's part of the journey. There's no right or wrong. Everybody's always trying to find the good guy or bad guy in people's stories. There's no good guys or bad guys. We're all wounded trying to figure this shit out, you know? And so it took me a long time to realize, it is not his responsibility to make you happy. He can't. It's impossible. But it took me forever, hard-headed, stubborn, you know, because that romantic idea, and that's why I talk about checking the boxes. It's like, "I did everything I was supposed to do. You get to have your dream, how come I'm not having mine?" And that's because Will was doing what he wanted to do. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
He was making himself happy.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
He was making himself happy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And he says that to you, doesn't he? He says, you, when you separate, he says, he wants you to go and-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
He's like, "Go. Go."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Go make yourself happy?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
"Go make yourself happy."
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how did you receive that?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Not well. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Not well, because, you know, there can be truth, but you know what I'm saying? It's like, how we ... you know. I think it was very true, but I think at that
- 1:22:53 – 1:26:00
😢 Experiencing a chronic state of discontent
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
particular point of time, I was just still really resentful of just like, you know, "Oh, so I helped you get your happiness, now you just gonna, you know, throw me to the curb and, you know, I gotta do it all on my own now," you know? But that's the truth. I had to do it on my own, you know? Just like he did. You gotta do it on your own. You gotta do it on your own. You gotta do it on your own. And a lot of that's what this, this is about, and me detoxing from needing fulfillment and validation outside of myself, detoxing from needing it from Will, my marriage, my family, a career. Like, I had to get to the bare bones of Jada and walk what I call the exiled lands. And those exiled lands are going into the crevices of, you know, those places within that were holding me back from myself. All the fears, all of the false information and false ideas of what life is and what a marriage is supposed to be, and you know, who I was supposed to be, what a wife is, like all of it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Perfectionism.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Perfectionism. And then I just went off to be completely imperfect and took joy in that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause being in Hollywood, I mean, this is a place that values the appearance of perfectionism. Like everybody looks perfect on the surface.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. And I think it's not a healthy idea. It's just not healthy, and it's not true, and nobody can live up to that, you know? Which is why I've been dismantling that need to be perfect for myself, and that's been a painful ride, but...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Leading up to your 40th birthday-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... which is also where the book starts-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I- I read the first pages of the prologue, and I couldn't quite believe what I was reading.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because the place you're at in your life, this...... chronic state of discontent that you describe. I, I remember when I got to the chapter 17 in the book, which is No Soccer Mom Here, that was the first time I had to stop reading because it was a lot, a lot for me to take.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hearing that that's what was going on in your head and your mind, that's the way you viewed life, you didn't see any path forward for you. Um, you're 39 years old, um, apparently, you know, on the surface it seems like you've got everything that anyone would dream of having. But internally, there's this chronic state of discontent.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If
- 1:26:00 – 1:31:08
💔 Complexities of Jada's Relationship with Will Smith: Layers of Pain and Resilience
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was... I often say to people, if I was a fly on the wall, but if I was a fly inside the walls-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what were you, what was going through your mind? 39 years old, about to turn 40?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Oh, I was, I was in a very, very dark place. Very dark place.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Just, I remember the line I read where you said, "If I got to 4:00 PM every day..."
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I was like, "I made it. I made it." And even that was, like, so hard. I mean, you know, I was talking to my mother this morning 'cause she just read the book and she said, "I can't believe you didn't talk about how you woke up every day crying."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. And I was like, "You know, Ma, I, I just, I think it was enough to tell people that I was looking for a cliff to drive off of." You know? And what she brought up was like, she knew I was unhappy, but she didn't know why. So it wasn't that people around me didn't know that I was really unhappy, it's just that everybody believed what I believed, which is why it was so hard for me to talk about, which is like, "You've got everything. What are you unhappy about?" Right? And so that's how I was feeling. "You've got everything. What are you unhappy about?" And that was just... I had so much shame around that 'cause I didn't understand. And even then, there wasn't a lot of conversation around mental health. And so I was just like, "Fuck it. I can't keep doing this. I want out." And it was just a really, really dark time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you say you were looking for a cliff to drive off of, you're not saying that theoretically or as a metaphor?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
No, I'm saying I was looking... to the point where I was like, Big Sur. I knew exactly the route to drive and it's this really narrow route and sometimes it gets really foggy there at night. And you... I'm not, I'm not making it out of that, out of that drop. I, I remember driving that one time, going to Big Sur, 'cause I was looking, like, here, like a mom and I was like, "These drops aren't gonna..." Like, "I need a drop that I'm not making it back. I don't wanna be disfigured. I don't want... I want out." And I knew I had to make it look like an accident 'cause I did not want my kids to think that I had committed suicide. No, I was, I was... Yeah. I was in a lot of pain. I was in a really, really dark place. And when you're in that place, you just can't see your way out. And you really think... I really thought something was really wrong with me because what I was feeling wasn't matching the exterior of my life. So I really did feel like I w- I was just born broken. That I was just wired in a way that just...
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was the truth? If that's how you felt, what was... In hindsight now, what do you know to be the truth of that emotion and that state of your life? 39, 40 years old, what was actually going on?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
That... I really feel like that sometimes when we get into these states of wanting to die, you know, for those of us who have had, like, suicidal thoughts and what have you, sometimes it is chemical. That's a different thing. I think mine was more psychological. Something is asking to die, but not you. And it's a, it's, it's a different way of looking at things, right? And so... And that, it's, it is a, it is a extreme shift in which I had to get out of my cycle of self-hatred. I was in a cycle of self-hatred that I didn't even know, 'cause we're unconscious of it. So the mind is tricking us, you know what I mean? We gotta be careful with this. This isn't as reliable as we think, you know? And so, um... But I was in a, I was in a cycle of self-hatred and it wasn't until...
- 1:31:08 – 1:34:15
💊 Jada's experience with psychedelics
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
thank God for my son, that I was... you know, he introduced me. Um, his friend's father did ayahuasca and they happened to be talking about it and they talked to me about it. Jayden came in the kitchen, he was like, "You gotta sit down with Moises and Mateo. You gotta hear about this experience, Ma, that their dad had."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was Jayden saying that intentionally? Did he know that you needed that?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
No. He wasn't saying that intentionally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He was just curious.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
He was just... He knows I'm curious. He knows I'm a seeker.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right, right.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
... right? That was divine. And so I went and talked to them, and I was like, "Hey, is your dad in town?" And then their dad came and I talked to him, and he, I was like, "I need that." And then the universe opened up a door for me to have my own ceremony. Four days of, like, intense, tense ceremony, but that's when I got to see that cycle of self-hatred. I was like, "This is you. These are your thoughts. This is how you feel about yourself. This is the problem." And so the medicine really showed me this pit of self-hatred I was in, and it helped me get out of it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Chapter 20 of the book, you, you titled Surrender.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Surrender's an interesting word. Why is surrender so important in your journey?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
You have to surrender everything you think you are and everything you think you know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've spoken to a lot of people that have done Alcoholics Anonymous, and they talk about the importance of surrender.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Surrender, yeah. It's like surrendering, you know, for me, also surrendering to a pow- a higher power.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
And that's a constant. That's every day. I have to remind myself and deepen my surrender to a power far greater than myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Chapter 21, The Holy Joke, The Holy Slap, and The Holy Lessons. It's interesting because there's similarities between chapter 19 and chapter 21 in that you took a lot of the blame-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... for situations. Chapter 19, The Entanglement Conversation.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because when you watch that clip online at the, at the Red Table, Will looks tired-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and he looks sad-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and he says that thing. He says, "I'm gonna get you back."
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It did- it made it look like you had cheated on him or something.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I had to check the facts because if you see that clip in isolation, it looks like you cheated on Will or something-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... which is not what happened.
- 1:34:15 – 1:38:59
🌪️ Jada explains the "entanglement" and how it impacted Will Smith
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
discomfort. It wasn't until I saw how the people around me were affected. I mean, my mother, my kids, my friends, people, like... They were like, "How could you do this?" And I was like, "Well, I just wanted to end everything, you know. Will wasn't ready for the world to know that we weren't together and that we were living separate lives, and I just took it because I just want it to stop, I just want it to end." People were like, "No!" My mother was like, "What are you d-" She was like, "You need to get your ass in therapy." (laughs) She was like, "You are codependent as hell." You know? And everybody was just so... And then how people that love me so much were affected by that time. I don't think it would've penetrated and for me to really look at that part of myself if it hadn't been for how the people around me reacted, 'cause I don't really care about public in that way like most people do. I don't whatever, 'cause I understand the chaos and the just absurdity of all of that. But people who love me, I needed that mirror to see that place of healing that needed to happen in me, in the dynamic within myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was that dynamic within yourself?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Just like martyrdom.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, okay, throwing yourself under the-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... yeah.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
That martyrdom that I'm, I will...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Martyrdom. The Holy Slap.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you, you write about in the book how you didn't realize that Will had actually slapped Chris-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... until much later. You thought it, you suspected maybe it was a skit or a joke.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I thought it was a skit, and then I realized it wasn't, but I didn't think that he actually made contact with Chris. It looked like he ducked it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Social media grabbed onto this eye roll.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And they, um, social media believed that that eye roll was some kind of like-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... "Go get him, Will."
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yeah. (laughs) And even if it was, it was like, I can't force Will to do anything, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You and Will weren't together.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
We weren't together as, you know... We were family.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
I was there with him as family, but we weren't together at that time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were you surprised by the reaction and to that moment, both for you but also for Will? I don't-
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Yes and no. I was surprised at how much... I knew I was gonna get blame, but, like, I didn't think that it was gonna be... I, I mean, it was insane, you know. It was like, wow. Um, but I knew, I knew we would have- I knew it was gonna be a storm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In the book, you say protection is your love language.
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He protected you, didn't he?
- JSJada Pinkett Smith
Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you see that as a act of love?
- 1:38:59 – 1:39:08
📖 Jada Pinkett Smith's Book: A Beacon of Wisdom for Self-Discovery and Healing
- SBSteven Bartlett
on a certain area of my behavior, which comes from, um, maybe a wound that I have that is gonna hold me back and lead me to a place I don't wanna go to.
Episode duration: 1:41:30
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