The Diary of a CEOJamie Carragher: The Untold Story of Liverpool Legend That Pushed Himself Too Far | E206
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,979 words- 0:00 – 2:00
Intro
- JCJamie Carragher
I couldn't get it out of my mind. I had to get hold of a psychologist. I was just like, "This can't go on." Jamie Carragher is a Liverpool stalwart. 730-odd appearances. There's never gonna be another Jamie Carragher. He's a winner. Carragher urged to shoot. He will, you know! Oh! (crowd cheering) That's just ridiculous. I'm not a huge Ronaldo fan. I think that's pretty obvious. It's sad for him the ways people are speaking about Messi towards the end of his career and Ronaldo and it's completely different. It's almost like he feels like he's not rated even. I've got so much admiration for him for his mental strength, to be able to withstand pressure, criticism. And I saw too many players never recover from that. I knew from the first time I played football, for me, winning was all that mattered. If you say to me, what do I miss most about being a professional footballer? It's winning. I'd rather cheat and win than not win.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When Jamie loses a game, is he different?
- JCJamie Carragher
I punished myself when I didn't perform well, and I regret that. But there was always that thing of, "Am I good enough?" I was just driving myself mad. When I was at my absolute peak and best, that's when I needed more help. The fear in your stomach is that bad. You just, you don't want to be there. I always remember, and, uh, th- the only time I've ever did this in my whole career ... (breathes deeply)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Much of your success has been a result of a winning mentality in some of the toughest moments. Where does that come from?
- JCJamie Carragher
The reason why I've become the player I have, I think it's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask from you. Two months ago, 74% of people that watch this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%. So if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know. And the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you, and enjoy this episode. (lively music)
- 2:00 – 10:59
The scare before you were born
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jamie, when I start this podcast, I usually start with people's childhoods. But, uh, as I was reading through your story, I think this is the first time I'm gonna start before the person was even born. Because I, I read that there was a possibility that you weren't even going to be born because of a, I guess a misdiagnosis that your mother was given about you.
- JCJamie Carragher
(sighs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can you take me back to that story?
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah. That was, uh, (sucks teeth) would've been about... (laughs) What is it? Would've been about 1977 obviously, '78 I was born. And my mum had had two miscarriages before me. And then when I, uh, well, she, she'll preg- fell pregnant with me, the, the doctors, nurses didn't know what was wrong, but they knew something was wrong. And initially, they were saying, "Uh, we think your child has got spina bifida." And I think... Well, I'm, I'm just saying it, in those days, maybe, I don't know if it's the same now, you, there was a chance she could terminate the pregnancy if, if the, if the baby was whatever, you know, didn't... And my mum was, I think was given that option. And sh- m- my mum's, my mum was very holy, I think is the right word. Uh, probably at that stage, in her early 20s, she would be going to church every day, still goes every Sunday now. So for her thing was now if... The way she says to me was, "If our Lord wants me to have th- a baby who's got spina bifida or maybe something else, that's, that's what's being decided for me. That's fine, it's my child. I love that child." And what I, what I find fascinating when you think of sort of today is that the closer it got to the, me being born, it wasn't spina bifida, but they still knew something wasn't right. And it wasn't until I was born that I had basically my insides were on the outside. So I've, I've, uh, gascro- gastroschisis, it's called, the condition. Now I've got, uh, uh, a big scar right across my stomach. I mean, if, if someone has that condition today, and, and plenty of babies do, it's a really small scar. But the, the thing that I think is f- fascinating or just makes me think wow on my mum's side is the fact that as soon as I was born, I was rushed away, straightaway to Alder Hey Children's Hospit- Hospital, which is still going strong today in Liverpool. And because of what I've gone to achieve, I've got a real link with the hospital. And, uh, through our charity, we actually funded the, uh, the ward that looks after babies who have-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, really?
- JCJamie Carragher
... what I had. Uh, but I get rushed away to Children's Hospital, and my mum doesn't know anything. There's no phones. There's no... She's still in Fazakerley Hospital. Obviously, I've got a problem, straight up to Alder Hey. My dad goes straight in. But again, there's n- the technology isn't like that. And I just think, how long it must have been before, one, my mum knew I was all right, what I had, how quickly they had to go. You know, which y- you can't quite fathom that when you think about today and how quickly we can get in touch with, with different people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
So, uh, I just, I just think about what was going through my mum's mind there for that sort of the next hour or two until, you know, she probably found out everything was okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your knowledge of that story and that experience, has that left a lasting impact or impression on you in terms of the decision your mum make, your mum made or being whisked away or the operation or having the scar or anything like that? Has that s- left any sort of impression on you at all?
- JCJamie Carragher
Yes. (stutters) All about my mum, I would say. You know, to, to, to, to have had two miscarriages, to have that going through your third pregnancy, to think you could lose the baby. The, uh, no one c- can quite give you a definitive answer about what's going on with, you know, this child in your stomach.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
And then to...... to not know straight away. I just, I just, I only know of now and when people have kids and I've had my own kids and (inhales sharply) everything's so documented, isn't it? Whether it's, you know, the first picture, Instagram, you're there with the, the baby when the baby's born. I, I wasn't, actually. Maybe we can get to that later. I wasn't there for my, uh, first born and that's, uh, something I do regret. But I just think about how, how my mum must have felt and sort of me looking at my mum 'cause I've been very lucky. The life I now lead, the experience I, I've had. You know, it's not there if my mum doesn't make, you know, certain decisions. Along with my dad, of course, but yeah, for my mum to sort of make that decision and, uh, I'm still here today. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about your dad? What, what, um... Talk to me about him and his character and what impact that had on you before the age of 10.
- JCJamie Carragher
He's a real big character. Yeah, he's, you know, he's... He'll be in the pub, he'll have a debate, he'll get up and sing, he'll, he'll have an argument with someone. He's like a real larger-than-life sort of character.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Who did you care about impressing the most? Just not even in the context of your parents but just who were you trying to impress when you were young? 'Cause for me, you know, it might have been my older brothers, it could have been my dad, it could have been, you know, a teacher. Who were you trying to impress?
- JCJamie Carragher
I mean, the obvious one is to say it's my dad 'cause he was the one who was always there in terms... Are you talking about football or in life?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- JCJamie Carragher
My mum never watched me play football.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JCJamie Carragher
I mean, my mum must have watched me play five times in my life. And that's nothing to do with not being proud of me or not being there, but I know it's not the, the done thing now but it was almost a case of my dad took us to football and my mum stayed at home. You know, and, and did what we associate with women things. And now obviously, that type of comment or them, them thoughts, certainly back then-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
... be classed as, like, sexist now, and rightly so, but that was just the way it was. It wasn't... I don't think my mum was sort of badgering my dad to go to the football. She always just thought, "Well, okay, that's your thing to take them to the football." Whether to be going to watch Everton as young kids or, you know, playing my games for, you know, amateur teams, Bootle Boys, and I wanted to start on that journey.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And when you, when he took you to football, did he have high standards and expectations for you when you were playing?
- JCJamie Carragher
Yes, but I think that came not because he was so desperate for me to be a footballer. I think that became 'cause I think he knew pretty early on I had something. You know, my dad had played football, my dad had watched football. My dad was a massive football fan so he, he, he done everything you could do in football in terms of playing amateur football, managed amateur teams, went to watch Everton home and away. So he was just, he was obsessed with football. So from a young age, I think it was quite tough for me a couple of times I'd stand out only because he knew the standards I could get to. And one of those times is like a story I put in my book and I think sometimes when my dad listens back, I think he, I think he doesn't like me to say the story because I think he looks back at it and thinks, "Oh, I wish I hadn't done that." But I've got no problem with it. You know, I think it's part of my life, part of my story that basically I was seven years of age and I didn't want to play in a game. It was that cold, it was freezing, it was hailstorming. I got tackled and I pretended I was crying and come off. But he... Me, me, my dad, and I'm the same, we couldn't suffer bluffers or phonies we'd say, you know, that type of thing. And he knew I was putting it on and let's just say it was the last time I did. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, I read that part in your memoir.
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In your memoir it says there was some raining football boots when you got home. (laughs)
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah, may- maybe there's a little bit of artistic license there with the, uh, the guy who wrote it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJamie Carragher
But, but no, I think it was that and I, I think throughout my football career... No, I'm not talking about and injury. I'm talking about the big thing for me and the big thing for me that I want to pass on to my son is having character. That, for me, will, will take you to places that you don't think are possible. If you've got that personality, mental strength, character, I think that overrides a lot of things.
- 10:59 – 27:00
Being obsessed with winning
- SBSteven Bartlett
it. And so I'm trying to figure out, and you smile when I say that because you, you know it's true. I've read you, I've heard you say that subsequently but, um, where does that come from? Where does that character and that obsession with victory at all costs to the point that you cause suffering in yourself, where does that come from?
- JCJamie Carragher
I, I think, I think my dad and whether you, whether you're born with something like that, maybe, you know, you speak to a lot of probably more people who could give you that answer than I do and maybe have a better insight into it to me in some ways and that. I'm not quite sure but I knew from the first time I played football, for me, winning was all that mattered. And if you say to me, "What do I miss most about being a professional footballer?" It's winning. It's not the taking part, it's not the training. A lot of people always say this. I hear footballers say this all the time, "I miss the dressing room." I don't miss the dressing room. I miss the dressing room after the game when we win. That, like, ugh, you've done something together. And I listen to Crouchies podcast 'cause I've seen it pop up somewhere. I think it was made online or something. Peter Crouch said Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher wrote off players after 15. I thought, "I better listen to this one."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJamie Carragher
... but what Peter Crouch said is right. And he's probably looking at me a little bit dumbfounded. I can understand that, but I can't understand him. I- for me, f- (sighs) Bill Shankly said, "Football is a matter of life and death." And I don't think he meant that. I think that was obviously tongue-in-cheek at the time and no football club knows that statement is not true more than Liverpool Football Club, but it's very close to being true. That's the way I see it. That's... Football for me is a way of life and, and winning is, is all that matters. And for me, when I played, I'd rather cheat and win than not win and, uh, I don't think I'll ever be any different and that's why I think football has taken me to places in me life that almost brings a tear to me eye. But it's always taken me to places where I'm like, I don't feel like I'm ever gonna get over it. You know, the results or something's- hasn't gone well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You mentioned that, that post-match feeling is, is the best and potentially the feeling you miss and I've- but I've also heard you describe it as relief.
- JCJamie Carragher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know? And that's, um, that's an interesting thing 'cause people would think the post-match victory feeling would be euphoria and elation, but for you to describe it as relief is a curious word.
- JCJamie Carragher
Because I knew how bad I'd feel if we didn't win or it hadn't gone well. It was almost relief that I'm not gonna feel like that for the- uh, next two or three days because I, I would... I think I punished meself a little bit when I didn't perform well or we didn't win and I regret that, but I don't know if I could have done anything different. It was what... It was me. You know, I, I spoke to a psy- at one stage I spoke to a- I had to, I had to, I wasn't asked to, I had to get hold of a psychologist, sports psychologist who I knew because what I was doing to meself was... I was just driving meself mad really with the standards I was expecting of meself and this, I must say, was not when I was not playing well and short of confidence. This when I- was when I was at my absolute peak and best. That's when I needed more help because I got to a stage where I felt I couldn't make a mistake. If I, if, if I didn't play well, I thought we were gonna lose. Yeah, I, I, I was g- because I wa- I wasn't daft. I was playing at me best. I was a huge part of the team and there, there was sort of me at the back and Stevie Gerrard at the front, if you like, and there was lots of other great players around then of course, but I knew I was a huge influence in the Rafa Benitez era, era and I felt... I'd go into big games thinking, "If I don't play well today we're not gonna win." And if I made a mistake, and I always remember the mistake I made, it was away at Atletico Madrid, Champions League group game, we're winning one-nil, we're under pressure constantly and I'm, I'm, I'm playing really well. I'm in control. This was the- that was me in my element away from home in Europe for Liverpool, trying to get that clean sheet, organizing, talking to everyone and a long ball and I just misjudged it and he scored and in the airport on the way home I was just like, "This can't go on. Uh, uh, this has got to stop." You know, the... what I'm actually doing to meself. I've played great, I've made a little mistake, you know, they've capitalized on it, but you can't put yourself through that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was the symptoms that you were confronting in that moment? Why- what couldn't carry on? So you'd made that mistake, you're in the airport, you're on the plane, whatever. What is the- what's happening?
- JCJamie Carragher
I couldn't get it out me mind. I couldn't... I'd, I'd go like two, two nights when I was sleeping. I mean, when I say not sleeping, I might, I might get a couple of hours. I'd be, be like constantly on me mind. I'd wake up, it would be the first thing I think about and I was just like, "Uh, what am I doing to meself?" But how do you stop it? But the- but the fascinating thing was, w- when I spoke to the sports psychologist, a guy called Bill Beswick and I knew him from the England squad. After speaking to him a- and then it got to the stage where I spoke to him probably two or three times a season, almost like I'd reflect and, you know, what's gone on. I couldn't change. We actually got to the bottom of, actually this is what's making you who you are. This is the drive to sort of... If, if you, if you did probably dismiss mistakes or were not too bothered, "Oh, I'll be, I'll be fine next week," that wouldn't make y- I- wouldn't make you who you are.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
And I, I could still never shake it off. I could- I couldn't, but I almost... By speaking to him, it made me understand and accept that's what it was. So I still went through turmoil if I didn't play well, if I made a mistake. I always wonder if that was like a by-product of being a local player. I always think, "What would I have been like if I'd have played for Aston Villa or Tottenham or..." You know, I'd... I didn't know that many people. You know, it felt like you were playing for the club or the supporters or your family and friends really. You know, it was-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you, did you ever feel anxiety in those moments? The feeling of anxiety?
- JCJamie Carragher
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So when something is plaguing you so much that you almost feel that kind of sense of nervous energy that keeps you up at night and you feel it in your stomach.
- JCJamie Carragher
No. It was never anxiety. I would say anger in that I want to put this right. It's like I didn't even wanna sleep, I wanna get to training the next day.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did that come out in your home life? 'Cause it's hard not to take that home with you.
- JCJamie Carragher
It... Yeah, I think it will have done. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I, I, I remember something came up a year or two ago on the- on Twitter about a s- a group of players or a certain player, or maybe even a manager went out and had a meal or a few drinks after they'd lost and there was this big debate on, uh, on Twitter, "Well, why shouldn't they..." You know, some fan- you know what fans are like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
... "He shouldn't be like, they shouldn't go out." And there was this huge, big debate and I think Gary Lineker mentioned something that I've never not...... change, I've- I've never changed me plans on the back of results. Okay, that, that sounds nice. I thought it was unbelievable. I would change plans every single week if that game didn't go well. So that's where it was affecting my home life. So in terms of organizing a night out, going for a meal with friends, whatever it may be, I couldn't ha- I couldn't have shown me face if we'd have lost and I played poorly. Not a chance. And I couldn't believe that some players could, could just carry on with their life. I'd be a bit like, "Oh, no." You... No. Y- Because the feeling in your stomach is that bad. You just, you don't even wanna be... You just don't wanna be there. You don't wanna be with people, you don't wanna speak. You know, that's, that's wh- how much it got me. And, and I go back to that, you know. Would it have been different at another club? I would never have wanted to play for another club, but that is the one thing I do think about. Would it have... Results and performances affected me differently?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You come home after a, you know, losing a game or something. You got your family there, your kids running up, "Hey."
- JCJamie Carragher
I mean, t- to be fair, me kids were quite young when I wa- I was still playing. But there, there was one game that stands out when I couldn't get out of something. I was opening a restaurant. I opened a, a restaurant about 10 or 15 years ago called Cathy Sports England in Liverpool. And the two times we opened, those two games I didn't play well. And in my head before the game, I'm thinking, "I've got to play well in this game 'cause people will think if I don't play well, I've got me mind somewhere else." And I was probably too focused on the game in some ways. And then I had to go and almost open the restaurant and there was people there. And I remember the second one it was like, "No." I went, I was there 20 minutes and I was like, "I've got to go."
- SBSteven Bartlett
If I spoke to Nicola, which I might have done, but I won't tell you before this, when I asked the question-
- JCJamie Carragher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and I said, "When Jamie loses a game, is he different? And what's he like?" What would she have said to me?
- JCJamie Carragher
100%, yeah. 100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What would she have said, do you reckon?
- JCJamie Carragher
"He's not there when I'm talking to him." I think she'd probably say that. Maybe now at different times, but I would be, I would be in a trance. I, I'd just be sort of daydreaming as people would be speaking to me. And it's probably best she used to leave me alone and not try and get me mind off it 'cause I, I couldn't. Even if I, if I did get me mind off it, I know I'd go back to it. And, and you're talking about g- going home. I always remember one time where I said I was in a trance where I was with the players. So I always remember we were playing a game against Everton, which for me is the biggest game. I had a nightmare in the game. And we were going for a meal afterwards with the team, like an official... N- not a sort of few drinks. It was, it was to, to, to refuel basically. This game was an early morning kickoff. We had a Champions League game on the Tuesday night in, in, in Eindhoven. We got beat 3-nil at Goodison. And we've gone to the center of Liverpool for a meal just to make sure we're eating the right food. And I remember just staring, just couldn't stop. I was just... Wasn't even eating. Just, just staring. And next thing I get a text message, Stevie Gerrard, he's just like, he's there, he's going, "Don't worry about it. It's gone, finished. Forget about... You know, just, you've got to try and..." But I was just like, he could just see g- everyone was devastated. But for me, I, I just... No, I'm not trying to make out that I cared more than anybody else 'cause everyone's got their own-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
... ways of dealing with things. But I... Y- yeah, it was a... Yeah, it was... It's a huge part of my life, football. It always has been, always will be. I think I'll always be affected by football results. When I went, that's when I was playing as an Everton fan, as a Liverpool fan right now, football results will affect me.
- 27:00 – 30:23
Gérard Houllier
- SBSteven Bartlett
came in, came in as a manager... It's Houllier. Is it Houllier? Gerrard. We'll just call him Gerrard Houllier. Um, when he arrived at L- uh, Liverpool in, I think it was 1986? 1998. 1998, he came into the, the club. Um, the players took to him at first, as I read, 'cause he, one of the key decisions he made was around Paul Ince.
- JCJamie Carragher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was that-
- JCJamie Carragher
You said the players took to him?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJamie Carragher
Um, no, I think he found it difficult to start with.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, really?
- JCJamie Carragher
I think there was a, a, a big split in the camp, in that the players who'd come before that with Roy Evans and Gerrard Houllier came in, he was new to it. And, yeah, I think it was tough for him in that first season. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did, did that turn at some point? Did he win the trust of the players?
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah. I mean, it l- yeah, he, he... P- Paul Ince, uh, great, great fella. I got on great with Paul Ince. Great player as well. Didn't have the career that Liverpool he's had maybe at other clubs. And I think Gerard Houllier just wanted to make a fresh start and he wanted to... I think most, a lot of managers do it. The, the take on, you know, the, uh, the big guy, if you like. And, uh, he was certainly that. He was... I think he was maybe England's captain or vice-captain at the time. But he wanted to completely revolutionize Liverpool and completely change it. And, yeah, he had a, words with, with Paul Ince. And the thing was not about him having words as such, but also the fact that he didn't sort of back down, he really held his own. He had a strong argument in, in the team meeting. And you think, "Wow, he's just stood up to probably one of the best midfield players of his generation."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was that strong argument in the team meeting?
- JCJamie Carragher
It was, it was over Paul Ince questioning what we were doing in training. A- as senior pros do at times, you know, the... We're trying to get it right. "Why are we doing this? Why are we doing that?" And I think Gerard Houllier saw it as his opportunity to sort of stamp his authority. It was almost like, I would imagine, he was glad Paul Ince had said it and it was o- it was Paul Ince in some ways. And I don't think the message was for Paul Ince 'cause I think he was always gonna get rid of Inci. I think the message was to the rest of us, you know, "Don't, don't try and take me on."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, he-
- JCJamie Carragher
"This is what we're gonna do."
- SBSteven Bartlett
... p- publicly in front of, in the team meeting-
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... told Paul?
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah, basically. W- no, "You wouldn't be at this club anymore," but he, he questioned his desire in a game. Uh, and to be fair, Paul Ince was probably one of the bravest footballers you'd see. But in a particular game against, uh, Manchester United, we'd lost it 2-1 and we'd lost two goals in the last minute and I think it was a very sore defeat for everyone. So I think everyone was a little bit emotional about it. And, uh, because Inci had jumped up and said something, he just went straight back and said he wasn't happy that he, he'd come off. "He shouldn't have come off. My captain shouldn't come off on a stretcher from Old Trafford." And it, it was, it was interesting with Gerard Houllier in that w- we h- we had him, the first foreign manager, and all of a sudden people would associate him with this flair football and being maybe a bit nice. But that was, that was what the Liverpool team was before Gerard Houllier came. He completely went the other way and was, wanted big, strong, powerful players, aggression. And that's why me and him had such a great relationship, because I was such a competitor. Maybe he didn't have the quality that some of the players had in the Roy Evans team, if you like, and some of the football they played was outstanding.... but he just wanted people who would die for that
- 30:23 – 33:53
Finding people that have the right mentality
- JCJamie Carragher
shirt.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause I, I read that part of the reason why his reign as manager sort of came to an end was because he made some bad signings and he was... he didn't really inquire enough about the players that he was signing's character and their personality. And so... And I was just so compelled by that idea that that's one of the most important things when you're building teams is finding people that have the same, like, mentality and character versus just great sort of technical players. I think about the same in business. Like, I'm always c- considering how someone will, um, support our culture, make our culture better, raise the bar, um, in terms of, like, that mentality versus just being able to do fucking 1,000 kick-ups or whatever. Loads of skills.
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah. I, I, I think you do need a certain mentality to play for Liverpool-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is that mentality?
- JCJamie Carragher
... and the other big clubs. (sighs) To be able to withstand pressure, criticism that comes your way. So often I saw a lot of Liverpool players who would start really well and it wouldn't, it wouldn't make me think, "We've got a great player here." I'd always think, "Let's see a couple of months down the line." 'Cause I knew what was coming because every player goes through a few bad games, he gets criticism, whatever it may be. And I saw too many players never recover from that. And that, that tells me that for me, the top level football is mentality. It was y- Do you have that personality, character to get you through those tough moments and come back and fight back and not give in?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can you teach that?
- JCJamie Carragher
I don't know. You tell me. D- What do you think?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(smacks lips) Um, I tend to believe that it comes from ex- experience. I think resilience and that sort of character, those character traits come from being knocked down loads of times. So when the 10th failure or knockdown comes, or the 10th moment of hardship comes, you're more equipped to deal with it.
- JCJamie Carragher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, so players that haven't been through the tougher, you know, challenges in their life, maybe in their personal life, maybe where they come from, don't have that.
- JCJamie Carragher
Well, it's interesting. W- we're doing this, uh, this afternoon and this morning my son went in for a knee operation.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your son did?
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- JCJamie Carragher
So he's gone in for a knee operation. He's a professional footballer. And painfully haven't been able to probably sleep about it, thinking about it. You know, just (breathes deeply) you just wanna do as much as you can, you know, to, to help them 'cause it's your son. (smacks lips) But the thing I keep drumming home to him, and I keep saying it almost every day, "We're not using this as an excuse. This is not getting in the way." It's like, this happened, is it? Okay, boomf. We're going again. It's like, this I know for a lot of people or players or young players or whatever it may be, would be a hurdle to come across and understandably so, but it's not in years to come gonna be, "Oh, I didn't quite do what I wanted because of that knee op." Yeah, and this never happened and, and that. It's like, no. There's, there's gonna be lots of things in his career, as in my career, obstacles in the way, you just, you've gotta get over them. You've gotta get them out the way or you've gotta deal with it and then keep going. Nothing's... And that was always my mindset and that's what I'm trying to put into my son. I'm, I'm pretty confident he's got, he's got that mindset of nothing stops you. Nothing gets in your way. You don't use anything as an excuse or a reason why something didn't happen. That no excuse mentality, you just, you keep going. Nothing gets... No- no obstacles in
- 33:53 – 36:14
Playing for England vs Liverpool
- JCJamie Carragher
the way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You said earlier on that you might not have cared as much as you do... You might not have had that s- that same level of, um, sort of excruciating obsession and, and care about the results and the outcome and winning if you'd been at another club. And you were at another club, which is England.
- JCJamie Carragher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you didn't seem to care as much. You said that.
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You remember? I, I, I was quite shocked to read that, that I remember the text message that said, "Fuck it, it's only England." And, um, generally you didn't seem to be as excruciatingly hard on yourself after losing for England as you did with losing for Liverpool.
- JCJamie Carragher
(smacks lips) I think that was down to the fact that I didn't carry the same responsibility because I, I never really played.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JCJamie Carragher
I was like a, a squad player.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
Really. I wouldn't class myself as patriotic. (smacks lips) Not at all. I'm... Oh, I don't know what the... I don't know. Can you be patriotic of your own city? Is that, is that a word or is, is there something-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I have no idea.
- JCJamie Carragher
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJamie Carragher
I'm massively pa- I'm massively passionate about my own city. And maybe that comes from the way we, we're brought up in Liverpool. (smacks lips) You know, the (sighs) thing of you feel as if like a lot of the country's against you. And maybe that's... Some of it's true. Some people outside of it feel, think, "Oh, that's a chip on your shoulder." But th- there is that sort of... We sort of buy into that. And that doesn't mean, like, I'm against England as such, but it... Watching England now in the World Cup would never take me to a place emotionally the way it would if I saw Liverpool playing. It just wouldn't take me there. It's not like a, a conscious thing of, "Ugh, I'm, I'm not gonna make... I'm not gonna be happy about this." It's just (breathes deeply) inside me. And, and, and, and that wasn't just when I was playing for them, that was when I was a, a child. I'd be thinking, "Why aren't England picking the Everton players?" You know, it almost felt like England was a team from down south or a London team.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
(smacks lips) That's just the, the feeling I had. And, but I think if, if I would've become a mainstay of the England team, I think I would've felt that. I think I would've got there. And that's my one disappointment in my football career. It's the only team in my life, from when I started at five years of age, I didn't dominate. And when I say dominate, was (sighs) be a mainstay of the team, be one of the voices of the team, be one of the leaders, 'cause I wasn't good enough. That's a simple fact.
- 36:14 – 40:11
Traits of people that don't make it
- JCJamie Carragher
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's lots of players that you've encountered in your career that didn't reach their potential. You're talking about reaching your potential, doing your best, getting to the, getting to the top of your potential a second ago. When you think about why those players didn't reach their potential, if you had to point out characteristics or behaviors that led them to miss their potential, what would those behaviors be? The traits of losers.
- JCJamie Carragher
Hmm.... I think blaming other people at different times for th- for their own poor games, mistakes, alwa- always looking for excuses, I would say. I think I'm, I'm pretty honest and I was as a player and I always remember when I was a young lad, I had a, I had a bad game. I keep talking about my bad games, don't I? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs) I was thinking about how you had a good one.
- JCJamie Carragher
You remember them all.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJamie Carragher
But a very famous coach who was, who was a huge inspiration to me was Ronnie Moran and, uh, I played a game and played poorly and I did an interview after the game saying it was my fault, those goals were my fault. And even though this was the, a coach who was a, a real sort of man's man, a legend of Liverpool Football Club, he wasn't the coach then. He, he still used to come in and walk around the training ground. And he said, "Don't ever do that again." He said, "You don't need to open yourself up like that." He said, "Be honest with him in the dressing room and to your manager," but he said, "You know what I mean? Sometimes you've got to be clever and look after yourself a little bit and you don't need to be as honest. You, you think you're doing the right thing." And I th- and I think he... I, I, I knew exactly where he was coming from and I think at times you need to be honest, but I think, uh, probably there were other times like that you maybe need to protect yourself a little bit, but you never-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
... hide behind the fact that it was someone else's fault. And again, I, I keep going back to my son because I'm not a, a coach or a manager and people say to me, "You know, could you give something back?" But I've, I just want to give it back to my son and things like that. Don't question the manager. Don't make excuses, don't blame the manager. Or if you come in and say, or the coach or the trainer, well, get something out of it. Don't, don't, don't be in the dressing room saying, "Oh, this isn't good or that isn't good."
- SBSteven Bartlett
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- 40:11 – 53:12
Managers losing the dressing room
- SBSteven Bartlett
On the point of questioning the manager, one of the things I read was that Gerard Houlia, Houlia, I can't say his bloody name.
- JCJamie Carragher
Houllier.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Houllier, cool.
- JCJamie Carragher
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the reasons why he, uh, ultimately ended up leaving the club, um, was 'cause he'd started to lose his authority in the dressing room. Now Peter Crouch said to me that great managers, even when they don't know the right answers, pretend they do because they know that if they ever get to a point where the players know that they're not in control, then the authority's gone. And there was a story I read about Gerard Houlie-a, um, picking a team and then going and asking Gerrard if it was the correct team and then Gerrard said it's not the correct team and changed it. This happened in, in spring in 2004 in a-
- JCJamie Carragher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in the run up to a Premier League match away to Manchester United. Gerard Houllier picked the team, but then consulted with Gerrard whether the selection was right, who said it wasn't right, and then Houllier changed it.
- JCJamie Carragher
I don't, I don't... it rings a bell. I don't know the specific game, if that was the right game, but I think towards the end of his time, I think the results aren't going well... and managers, no matter who they are, they will lose confidence. And Stevie at that time was obviously a, a mega star and you're trying to maybe keep people on side, if you like. Not that I think the players were ever offside with, with Gerard Houllier, but that confidence and belief in the manager starts to ebb away when results don't go well. I wouldn't say Gerard Houllier ever lost the dressing room in terms of how we felt about him as a man, but it was, it was a time for it to come to an end. There's no doubt about that. And it's an interesting one, that. Does a manager lose the dressing room? Yes. He's, he's always lost part of a dressing room 'cause of the players who he's not picking, but I think it's when that belief goes, really. But for me, again, I think I was different to other players because I never played for the manager, ever. I always played for the club. And again, because it was the c- I always felt like I played for the club and the supporters. And I'm not saying that to curry favor with the supporters as such, but no manager bought me, you know? I, I, I didn't owe a manager anything as such. I mean, Roy Evans gave me, me debut, I suppose, and other managers played me, but I never had that sort of feeling that we need to win this for the manager.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... Rafa Benítez comes in next.
- JCJamie Carragher
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's the difference between Gérard Houllier and Rafa Benítez in terms of style? 'Cause I find it so compelling that managers can be great for various different reasons, and we think of management as like a formula.
- JCJamie Carragher
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But as I sit here with football players that have had seven, eight, nine managers, they all say that managers are completely different in their style and approach.
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah, Rafa was completely different. Gérard Houllier was a manager. I think Gérard Houllier was the type of guy who could... He could manage an organization, didn't just have to be football. I think he could've been a bank manager. He could've been a CEO, if you like.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
He organized people, get everyone focused on, you know, what do we want to achieve and... But the actual day-to-day stuff of coaching, I don't think was in his forte. And it, and it might sound strange, I don't think he had a, a huge knowledge of the game. Enough, but it wasn't someone who was gonna say something, something to you in a coaching session or a tactical point that made you think, "Oh, never heard that before." Or, "That's a bit different." It wasn't like that. His thing was bringing people together for a common goal and, and, and almost when I've described him to other people, people say Clive Woodward, the, the England rugby coach, World Cup-winning coach, was probably similar in that. Now he's, he's had all the coaches, but he's always been coming up with ideas to create sort of a siege mentality, a togetherness. Whereas Rafa was a coach, he was on that training pitch every day and he was a lot colder than Gérard Houllier. He was a lot more interested in the kids, the wife, you know, yourself. You know, he'd speak, ask me about my dad or different things like that. Whereas Gérard Hou- er, Rafa didn't want to get involved in anything like that for him. It was just football. I mean, if... The guy was obsessed with football. Rafa was just like, he was probably above me. So we... But it was different, but it doesn't... I, I mean, I'll be honest with you, when we describe managers, like the one who come a couple after was Roy Hodgson and it didn't go particularly well, but my point is, when a new manager comes in, I want to get whatever I can from them. So he may not work for Liverpool. I may not like X, but I might like Y and Z.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
So, so you're always gotta be a sponge and, and taking things in and learning things. And I think when Gérard Houllier came in, I was a bit-part player and then became a fully-fledged member of Liverpool's first 11 for the next five years. And then Rafa came in and then be- again stepped up a level to become the vice captain and one of the leaders in the team, one of the best players in the team. So I always think I got the most from these oth- these other managers coming in, you know, who... Certainly Gérard Houllier, I don't think would've ever heard of me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
Maybe, you know, not too much, but I think it's important when people come into your life, figures of authority, you've got to basically squeeze everything out of them-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
... to your advantage. And I think I did that with both managers.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Let's do the biggest pro and con then. So from what I under- uh, of these individuals as managers. So Gérard Houllier you said he's a, a great sort of man-manager CEO type. That's probably, from what I hear, one of his greatest strengths. His downside is maybe a lack of football knowledge. Is that what you're-
- JCJamie Carragher
I w- I wouldn't say it was a downside because he had coaches around him who, who did the training sessions. It just, it got to its, its natural end-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- JCJamie Carragher
... i- in that, you know, we shouldn't forget, I mean, he nearly lost his life managing Liverpool and he's then making decisions. Is he in a fully, you know, football-focused state of mind when he's actually recovering from almost losing his life? And we, we made a few signings that didn't work and, and to be honest, that's always how it ends for Liverpool managers when it comes to the end that they have a summer where they buy a few players, they don't quite work out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
And then the next manager has to, has to come in 'cause, you know, the, the energy and the excitement, not just from the squad but also the supporters just petering out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So Rafa's g- great tactically, obsessed with football, obsessed with the game, but his sort of downside was if there... I mean everyone has a fucking downside. I have a downside as a manager and a CEO.
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah, yeah.
- 53:12 – 59:49
Pivotal moment for Liverpool
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I mean that's, that's what I got from all of that but it's, it's funny having this conversation in the wake of Richard Branson because he's the, the best example of that. One of the, obviously one of the defining moments, uh, I think in football generally, not just as Liver- as a Liverpool player or a Liverpool fan, was that final away at Istanbul. You, uh, you go in at halftime. I think it was 2005 final? You go in three-nil down. When you go down that tunnel at three-nil down, honestly, do you think you can turn that game around?
- JCJamie Carragher
No. No, no. Not at all. No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are you thinking when you walk through the tunnel then?
- JCJamie Carragher
It's gonna be six-nil.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that what you're thinking?
- JCJamie Carragher
Mm-hmm. Well, how can we stop it being six-nil? I think if you lose a game three-nil, it happens. If you lose five or six-nil, it's remembered. And that was my fear. That was fear.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What happened in the dressing room? What did Rafa say?
- JCJamie Carragher
Not a lot. He wasn't a motivator. He was a, he was a tactician. And, uh, he made changes in there system-wise, strategically to, to change it. But if I'm being honest, I think he changed... The changes he made was not to win the game. I think the changes he made was to stop it becoming five or six-nil. Because we actually brought on a defensive midfield player, Didi Hamann. We went to... You can call it a three at the back but it can, it can be five at the back if you like, rather than playing four. Don't get me wrong, the changes helped us go on and get the goals, but I think initially it's, "We need to stop what AC Milan are doing, otherwise this is going to be a massacre."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why did the game turn around?
- JCJamie Carragher
... I think the changes Rafa made, a little bit of luck, and Steven Gerrard.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. He scores the header-
- JCJamie Carragher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... 54 minutes or something, and then within a couple more minutes you've, you're three nothing, you're 3-3 up.
- JCJamie Carragher
That, that's, that's the little bit of luck you need. You score so quickly right after. That, that, that happens in some games. And (smacks lips) we did get a little bit of luck. Uh, I think the linesman actually flagged for an offside. The referee didn't see it and he carried on playing for 30 seconds, so the, the linesman puts his flag down. And that's in the run up to us getting our second goal. So we score the second goal and then (smacks lips) 03:08 ) . It just, you know when you're on a football pitch, you smell it, it's 3-2. (inhales deeply) We knew it was going... I knew it was gonna be 3-3. Everybody knew it was gonna be 3-3. You just-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is that?
- JCJamie Carragher
Me, I, I don't know. You just, the, the, the reason I know is because when we score 3-2, no one celebrates with the goal scorer. (smacks lips) Everyone just runs back.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He started celebrating, didn't he?
- JCJamie Carragher
He starts celebrating, but it's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I-
- JCJamie Carragher
We need this.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He was going crazy. I th-
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I remember thinking, "You shouldn't do that."
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah. But everyone's back. It's like everyone's in, oof, in a zone. And you don't need to speak to other people. Sometimes there, there's moments in games where you just, (inhales deeply) you can smell it, you can feel it, something's happening.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that a culture thing as well? Because there's certain clubs who have that. When, when they go two-nil down, three-nil down, no one, everyone goes, "Oh, they, they're gonna do it, they're gonna come back." And there's that mentality where you go, "Yeah, we're not safe here, they're coming for us."
- JCJamie Carragher
(smacks lips) I think Liverpool and Man United have got it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
City seem to have it now.
- JCJamie Carragher
And City, yeah. Certainly in the last couple of years under Pep Guardiola. (inhales deeply) I've, I've always felt Chelsea have had that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
... in the last 10 years or so. Even when they weren't at their best, they'd still find a way to win. (inhales deeply) And yeah, I, I know our, our club's got that, and we'll always have that. You just, it just, (smacks lips) you feel like something's gonna happen.
- 59:49 – 1:04:07
Ronaldo
- JCJamie Carragher
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, that made me think about Ronaldo. Obviously he's, he's, he's out the World Cup now and you've, you've had a couple of strong opinions on Ronaldo over the last couple of weeks. So have I, to be honest, following the interview he did. And then ch... I'm a Man United fan so I, I didn't take it especially well s- what he said and how he did it, and I thought it was very self-serving and selfish, et cetera. Um, but there's probably another way to do it. And I, I wonder now, I actually wonder if he regrets doing it. I regret... I wonder if he, he knew it would play out like it did and then he'd go to the World Cup, be benched again, which almost kind of validates Erik ten Hag's position.
- JCJamie Carragher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But what's your whole stance on the Rona- Ronaldo saga?
- JCJamie Carragher
I, I actually only watched the full interview a couple of days ago, he did with Piers Morgan. I'd only seen clips of it. (smacks lips) And I watched the full interview. I'm not sure he's a guy who regrets anything or too much, if I'm being totally honest. Or certainly he doesn't give off that maybe in, in his private thoughts. (inhales deeply) I think the Portugal one will have, will have hurt him. But you know, it's...... he's fallible. You know, he's, he's not superhuman. He's, he's one of the greatest players of all time. He's, he's special, but I, I mean, I'm, I'm no huge Ronaldo fan. I think that's pretty obvious, and that's not for his footballing ability. I actually have got so much admiration for him for his mental strength.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
I, I just think it's unbelievable. I think probably one of the strongest players mentally because he- he's had that thing his whole career. For how good he is, he's still had sort of Messi on his shoulder. It's always... He could never almost sit back and go, "I'm the best," and almost relax. He's always had this constant, "Yeah, but you're not as good as Messi." And I know people... it splits people, but I would say the majority of people would probably side with Messi. I, I would, I would imagine or I think that they do. And I think to always have that and always have that thing of trying to prove people wrong, and I've got that on a completely different level, it's almost like he feels like he's not rated, even though everyone says he's one of the best players of all time. And I, and I can't help but admire that drive because I've got that drive, but just not that ability that he's got. But I just... I mean, I'm saying I don't want him to sort of ruin his legacy with interviews. I mean, I don't really care. It's not, not my problem, but... It, it's, it's sad for him, the way these people are speaking about Messi towards the end of his career and Ronaldo, and it's completely different, and it's not to do with what's going on on the pitch. I think it's always that idea that Ronaldo was about himself, it was his ego, whereas Messi is painted as this like saint figure when I don't actually think that's true. But people don't know, want Messi to win the World Cup. You know, with Ronaldo it's like, he's not the same player, but he was the same player at 37, so he's getting criticized for not being the same player at 37, 38 when really he was getting lauded at that stage of his career, but because of the way he comes across, he storms off the pitch, uh, storms down the tunnel, he's giving that interview, people are obviously gunning for him now and, uh...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where does he go from here? 'Cause he, 'cause if he had had a phenomenal World Cup, then there'd probably be a lot of doors open for him. Some top sides would probably want him, even just for a year contract or something. But in the wake of being a disruptive employee at his last role and then going off to the Euros and being either a disruptive employee or just a l- po- po- poor-performing employee, it makes you wonder like, what manager is gonna wanna take on that ego, but also, without the upside you get with just like incredible on-field performance? So it's now just... It seems like it's just-
- JCJamie Carragher
He's tilted the other way now, isn't he?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJamie Carragher
I mean, Ronaldo hasn't changed.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJamie Carragher
He's always been that sort of character. Everyone's known that, but he was worth the hassle.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, exactly.
- JCJamie Carragher
Now, and that's like everything in football. You know, when we talk about a manager making a decision, can you put up with that? And it's not, it's not... It's in your business, isn't it? In your life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
You know, you don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
But when it gets to that stage where you're thinking, "This has become a more of a problem," and again, I say that to my son, you know, when a manager looks at you as a player, every manager wants the same thing. High performance, low maintenance. That's it. You know, certain players, you know, and it's when it goes... starts getting weighted to the high maintenance is basically the scales are more tilted towards the high maintenance, it's time to go.
- 1:04:07 – 1:12:21
Managers and player relationships
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you see any high maintenance players in your career that were specific- particularly troublesome?
- JCJamie Carragher
That were or weren't?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were.
- JCJamie Carragher
It's funny at Liverpool in that I think Liverpool is a unique club and I'm sure it's still the same. Liverpool supporters have an obsession with the manager that I don't think I've seen at any other club. So when the team win, it's about Shankly, Paisley, now it's Klopp. We know they're great players, but the adulation, I think starts with Bill Shankly. And when we, when Liverpool win, it's about the manager and the players. It's not the players then the manager. So the managers at Liverpool, I think have always had a great deal of authority. They've always had the people with them. So it's never a case of a players could get a manager out. And I never saw that at Liverpool. Certainly not when I was there. Roy Hodgson had a tough time at Liverpool. He wasn't the right manager for the club and the club moved him on after about six months.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why wasn't he the right manager?
- JCJamie Carragher
He just, he didn't get the club. He didn't say the right things in the press. He was, he was too defensive for Liverpool, for the top... Not just for Liverpool but for any top club. But listen, he'd had success in his career playing that way and he wasn't gonna change when he was in his 60s. So it was just the wrong appointment. It, it didn't work.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I read that Gerrard deliberately missed a penalty to get them fired.
- JCJamie Carragher
No, that is not true.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I wonder... I couldn't believe it was true, but I read... that's what I read.
- JCJamie Carragher
No, no, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I thought there's no fucking way that Gerrard would miss a penalty. And I actually went upstairs before you came and watched it to see Gerrard's body language and Gerrard did look pissed off (laughs) that he missed it, but...
- JCJamie Carragher
(laughs) No, no, no. Nothing like that. And I mean, I was, I felt sorry for him, uh, to be honest. But my point in making about the club is, I think it would always be difficult at any stage for a player to have this big ego to sort of try and think he was more powerful than the manager, because I think that's why managers love being manager of Liverpool is because they always get time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
You look at Jurgen Klopp now and there's a spell in the season, the pandemic season where he's done, he's done amazing. He's a godlike figure. But Liverpool actually, what? Lost six games at home against teams at the bottom of the table in a row. And I'm not saying he should have been sacked. What I'm saying is at other clubs that question would have been asked. I don't think there's been one Liverpool supporter, a sane one-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJamie Carragher
... who would have actually even contemplated that for anything, because that's the type of support they've been brought up on. The manager knows what he's doing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, one of my best friends is a... Maybe my best friend in the world is a Liverpool fan and I said to him this year when Liverpool were struggling, I said, "Why...... what would it take for you to become Klopp out? He wouldn't answer the question. I pressed him, I pressed him for weeks and weeks and weeks. Eventually, I was like, "If R- Liverpool get relegated, are you still Klopp then?" He was like, "Yeah."
- JCJamie Carragher
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And he just like leaves, leaves the group chat. (laughs)
- JCJamie Carragher
But-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's like a religious phenomenon which-
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah. I- I just- I- I don't- even with Ferguson at Man U, I know he was- he was umbelie- unbelievable. But I just think when I go to sort of, I think Man United's past their big rival, it would be George Best and Bobby Charlton-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJamie Carragher
... in that. And then, maybe, you know, Matt Busby comes after them in some ways. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just feels like different at Liverpool. And I think that gives managers huge power. And why I don't think I've ever encountered what I would call player power as such at Liverpool.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Probably why Liverpool have been successful though, because many other clubs have struggled with that, even Manchester United most recently with some of the big personalities we've had, where the manager doesn't have authority. And you just get, you get into the first season and you go, "The manager's gonna be fired because we're not gonna get rid of this world-class player." Um, and then, you- I was, I was speaking to Jesse Lingard about this like... 'Cause you can almost feel it in the air when- when it's coming, you know? You can feel that they've lost the- that phrase, "lost the dressing room", I've always wondered if that was true.
- JCJamie Carragher
'Cause-
- SBSteven Bartlett
If it's-
- JCJamie Carragher
Yeah. L-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is that a real thing?
- JCJamie Carragher
Y- yeah. I think so. I mean, I- I f- I probably felt that when Roy Hodgson was there, I don't think many players were enjoying the training or having 'em. And I was almost felt like I was trying to like, "Come on, y- y- y- y- y-," you know, it was like...
- 1:12:21 – 1:19:14
Being happy your career had ended
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJamie Carragher
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Eventually you retire, and interestingly, which kind of bucks the trend again, you- you said you were happy that your career was done.
- JCJamie Carragher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- JCJamie Carragher
The rollercoaster of emotions. It was... Yeah, I just, I'd had enough of it, you know, the high- the highs and lows. And the high was never as high as the low was low, if you like. So no, I- I was done. I didn't... It's very difficult to leave Liverpool.... I'd seen other players leave because in Liverpool fans' eyes, and rightly so, we're better than Liverpool. I actually said that in an interview once. We're, we was bigger than Liverpool. But we'd had players who'd left and gone to Real Madrid and Barcelona, but as a local player, you could never move to another English club or simply feel like you were, you were going on the up. You might be, your, your career might be petering out and you're going lower down. Liverpool fans would be fine with that. But a local player moving, very difficult. There's, you look at the reaction to Michael Owen moving to Real Madrid and then subsequently ends up at Manchester United. Even Steve McManaman is not loved as much as he should be for how good a player he was at Liverpool, I feel, because he, he left on a Bosman and went to Real Madrid. Didn't go to a big rival. He went to the biggest club in the world. That was always in my head. Not that I could necessarily move to a European giant, but the thing of how do you get out? How do we ti- how do I time this right? I don't want to carry on playing when I'm embarrassing myself and embarrassing the club or the supporters, so I've almost got to time this right. And I know towards the end of me career, there was Liverpool fans really questioning why I got a new contract at a certain stage, you know, why I was playing in certain games ahead of another player. Not, not massively, not where people outside of Liverpool would know, but again, you smell it, you feel it, the local paper, fans, you know, it just... You know, you're not stupid and I had that at the start of me career. The flip side of that where it was always that thing of, "Am I fully rated? Am I good enough to play for Liverpool?" So I always had that through my career. And I think the one thing that's helped me in my career is... I've always had the feeling that I'm not fully rated or I think I've been underestimated a little bit as a player and maybe in the role that I do now, where no one's expected what I've ended up doing. So it's almost, maybe that takes a little bit of pressure off, but I've always felt like I've got something to prove. They don't quite think I'm good enough. I wasn't, I wasn't Steven Gerrard, I wasn't Michael Owen, I wasn't Robbie Fowler when I got into the team. I was a slow burner and I got better and better and better as, as the years went on through experience and maturity. But there was always that thing of, "Am I good enough?"
Episode duration: 1:37:38
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