Jamie Carragher: The Untold Story of Liverpool Legend That Pushed Himself Too Far | E206

Jamie Carragher 0:00 I couldn't get it out of my mind. I had to get hold of a psychologist. I was just like, "This can't go on." Jamie Carragher is a Liverpool stalwart. 730-odd appearances. There's never gonna be another Jamie Carragher. He's a winner. Carragher urged to shoot. He will, you know! Oh! (crowd cheering) That's just ridiculous. I'm not a huge Ronaldo fan. I think that's pretty obvious. It's sad for him the ways people are speaking about Messi towards the end of his career and Ronaldo and it's completely different. It's almost like he feels like he's not rated even. I've got so much admiration for him for his mental strength, to be able to withstand pressure, criticism. And I saw too many players never recover from that. I knew from the first time I played football, for me, winning was all that mattered. If you say to me, what do I miss most about being a professional footballer? It's winning. I'd rather cheat and win than not win.

Steven Bartlett 0:50 When Jamie loses a game, is he different?

Jamie Carragher 0:52 I punished myself when I didn't perform well, and I regret that. But there was always that thing of, "Am I good enough?" I was just driving myself mad. When I was at my absolute peak and best, that's when I needed more help. The fear in your stomach is that bad. You just, you don't want to be there. I always remember, and, uh, th- the only time I've ever did this in my whole career ... (breathes deeply)

Steven Bartlett 1:14 Much of your success has been a result of a winning mentality in some of the toughest moments. Where does that come from?

Jamie Carragher 1:22 The reason why I've become the player I have, I think it's-

Steven Bartlett 1:28 Before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask from you. Two months ago, 74% of people that watch this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%. So if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know. And the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you, and enjoy this episode. (lively music)

Steven Bartlett 2:00 Jamie, when I start this podcast, I usually start with people's childhoods. But, uh, as I was reading through your story, I think this is the first time I'm gonna start before the person was even born. Because I, I read that there was a possibility that you weren't even going to be born because of a, I guess a misdiagnosis that your mother was given about you.

Jamie Carragher 2:21 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 2:22 Can you take me back to that story?

Jamie Carragher 2:23 Yeah. That was, uh, (sucks teeth) would've been about... (laughs) What is it? Would've been about 1977 obviously, '78 I was born. And my mum had had two miscarriages before me. And then when I, uh, well, she, she'll preg- fell pregnant with me, the, the doctors, nurses didn't know what was wrong, but they knew something was wrong. And initially, they were saying, "Uh, we think your child has got spina bifida." And I think... Well, I'm, I'm just saying it, in those days, maybe, I don't know if it's the same now, you, there was a chance she could terminate the pregnancy if, if the, if the baby was whatever, you know, didn't... And my mum was, I think was given that option. And sh- m- my mum's, my mum was very holy, I think is the right word. Uh, probably at that stage, in her early 20s, she would be going to church every day, still goes every Sunday now. So for her thing was now if... The way she says to me was, "If our Lord wants me to have th- a baby who's got spina bifida or maybe something else, that's, that's what's being decided for me. That's fine, it's my child. I love that child." And what I, what I find fascinating when you think of sort of today is that the closer it got to the, me being born, it wasn't spina bifida, but they still knew something wasn't right. And it wasn't until I was born that I had basically my insides were on the outside. So I've, I've, uh, gascro- gastroschisis, it's called, the condition. Now I've got, uh, uh, a big scar right across my stomach. I mean, if, if someone has that condition today, and, and plenty of babies do, it's a really small scar. But the, the thing that I think is f- fascinating or just makes me think wow on my mum's side is the fact that as soon as I was born, I was rushed away, straightaway to Alder Hey Children's Hospit- Hospital, which is still going strong today in Liverpool. And because of what I've gone to achieve, I've got a real link with the hospital. And, uh, through our charity, we actually funded the, uh, the ward that looks after babies who have-

Steven Bartlett 4:48 Oh, really?

Jamie Carragher 4:48 ... what I had. Uh, but I get rushed away to Children's Hospital, and my mum doesn't know anything. There's no phones. There's no... She's still in Fazakerley Hospital. Obviously, I've got a problem, straight up to Alder Hey. My dad goes straight in. But again, there's n- the technology isn't like that. And I just think, how long it must have been before, one, my mum knew I was all right, what I had, how quickly they had to go. You know, which y- you can't quite fathom that when you think about today and how quickly we can get in touch with, with different people.

Steven Bartlett 5:23 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 5:23 So, uh, I just, I just think about what was going through my mum's mind there for that sort of the next hour or two until, you know, she probably found out everything was okay.

Steven Bartlett 5:31 Your knowledge of that story and that experience, has that left a lasting impact or impression on you in terms of the decision your mum make, your mum made or being whisked away or the operation or having the scar or anything like that? Has that s- left any sort of impression on you at all?

Jamie Carragher 5:49 Yes. (stutters) All about my mum, I would say. You know, to, to, to, to have had two miscarriages, to have that going through your third pregnancy, to think you could lose the baby. The, uh, no one c- can quite give you a definitive answer about what's going on with, you know, this child in your stomach.

Steven Bartlett 6:07 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 6:08 And then to...... to not know straight away. I just, I just, I only know of now and when people have kids and I've had my own kids and (inhales sharply) everything's so documented, isn't it? Whether it's, you know, the first picture, Instagram, you're there with the, the baby when the baby's born. I, I wasn't, actually. Maybe we can get to that later. I wasn't there for my, uh, first born and that's, uh, something I do regret. But I just think about how, how my mum must have felt and sort of me looking at my mum 'cause I've been very lucky. The life I now lead, the experience I, I've had. You know, it's not there if my mum doesn't make, you know, certain decisions. Along with my dad, of course, but yeah, for my mum to sort of make that decision and, uh, I'm still here today. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 6:54 What about your dad? What, what, um... Talk to me about him and his character and what impact that had on you before the age of 10.

Jamie Carragher 7:01 He's a real big character. Yeah, he's, you know, he's... He'll be in the pub, he'll have a debate, he'll get up and sing, he'll, he'll have an argument with someone. He's like a real larger-than-life sort of character.

Steven Bartlett 7:16 Who did you care about impressing the most? Just not even in the context of your parents but just who were you trying to impress when you were young? 'Cause for me, you know, it might have been my older brothers, it could have been my dad, it could have been, you know, a teacher. Who were you trying to impress?

Jamie Carragher 7:30 I mean, the obvious one is to say it's my dad 'cause he was the one who was always there in terms... Are you talking about football or in life?

Steven Bartlett 7:36 Yeah, yeah.

Jamie Carragher 7:38 My mum never watched me play football.

Steven Bartlett 7:40 Okay.

Jamie Carragher 7:41 I mean, my mum must have watched me play five times in my life. And that's nothing to do with not being proud of me or not being there, but I know it's not the, the done thing now but it was almost a case of my dad took us to football and my mum stayed at home. You know, and, and did what we associate with women things. And now obviously, that type of comment or them, them thoughts, certainly back then-

Steven Bartlett 8:04 Hmm.

Jamie Carragher 8:05 ... be classed as, like, sexist now, and rightly so, but that was just the way it was. It wasn't... I don't think my mum was sort of badgering my dad to go to the football. She always just thought, "Well, okay, that's your thing to take them to the football." Whether to be going to watch Everton as young kids or, you know, playing my games for, you know, amateur teams, Bootle Boys, and I wanted to start on that journey.

Steven Bartlett 8:26 And when you, when he took you to football, did he have high standards and expectations for you when you were playing?

Jamie Carragher 8:36 Yes, but I think that came not because he was so desperate for me to be a footballer. I think that became 'cause I think he knew pretty early on I had something. You know, my dad had played football, my dad had watched football. My dad was a massive football fan so he, he, he done everything you could do in football in terms of playing amateur football, managed amateur teams, went to watch Everton home and away. So he was just, he was obsessed with football. So from a young age, I think it was quite tough for me a couple of times I'd stand out only because he knew the standards I could get to. And one of those times is like a story I put in my book and I think sometimes when my dad listens back, I think he, I think he doesn't like me to say the story because I think he looks back at it and thinks, "Oh, I wish I hadn't done that." But I've got no problem with it. You know, I think it's part of my life, part of my story that basically I was seven years of age and I didn't want to play in a game. It was that cold, it was freezing, it was hailstorming. I got tackled and I pretended I was crying and come off. But he... Me, me, my dad, and I'm the same, we couldn't suffer bluffers or phonies we'd say, you know, that type of thing. And he knew I was putting it on and let's just say it was the last time I did. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 9:52 Well, I read that part in your memoir.

Jamie Carragher 9:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:55 In your memoir it says there was some raining football boots when you got home. (laughs)

Jamie Carragher 9:58 Yeah, may- maybe there's a little bit of artistic license there with the, uh, the guy who wrote it.

Steven Bartlett 10:03 (laughs)

Jamie Carragher 10:05 But, but no, I think it was that and I, I think throughout my football career... No, I'm not talking about and injury. I'm talking about the big thing for me and the big thing for me that I want to pass on to my son is having character. That, for me, will, will take you to places that you don't think are possible. If you've got that personality, mental strength, character, I think that overrides a lot of things.

Steven Bartlett 10:33 That's really why I'm asking these questions because I could see throughout your career that much of your success has been a result of a winning mentality and character in some of the toughest moments. And that's not the case with all the footballers that I've spoken to, that's just the case with some of them. Even when I sat with Peter Crouch he referenced you as being, um, so set on winning and so obsessed with winning that you didn't even... That he didn't think you were ever enjoying

Steven Bartlett 10:59 it. And so I'm trying to figure out, and you smile when I say that because you, you know it's true. I've read you, I've heard you say that subsequently but, um, where does that come from? Where does that character and that obsession with victory at all costs to the point that you cause suffering in yourself, where does that come from?

Jamie Carragher 11:18 I, I think, I think my dad and whether you, whether you're born with something like that, maybe, you know, you speak to a lot of probably more people who could give you that answer than I do and maybe have a better insight into it to me in some ways and that. I'm not quite sure but I knew from the first time I played football, for me, winning was all that mattered. And if you say to me, "What do I miss most about being a professional footballer?" It's winning. It's not the taking part, it's not the training. A lot of people always say this. I hear footballers say this all the time, "I miss the dressing room." I don't miss the dressing room. I miss the dressing room after the game when we win. That, like, ugh, you've done something together. And I listen to Crouchies podcast 'cause I've seen it pop up somewhere. I think it was made online or something. Peter Crouch said Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher wrote off players after 15. I thought, "I better listen to this one."

Steven Bartlett 12:12 (laughs)

Jamie Carragher 12:15 ... but what Peter Crouch said is right. And he's probably looking at me a little bit dumbfounded. I can understand that, but I can't understand him. I- for me, f- (sighs) Bill Shankly said, "Football is a matter of life and death." And I don't think he meant that. I think that was obviously tongue-in-cheek at the time and no football club knows that statement is not true more than Liverpool Football Club, but it's very close to being true. That's the way I see it. That's... Football for me is a way of life and, and winning is, is all that matters. And for me, when I played, I'd rather cheat and win than not win and, uh, I don't think I'll ever be any different and that's why I think football has taken me to places in me life that almost brings a tear to me eye. But it's always taken me to places where I'm like, I don't feel like I'm ever gonna get over it. You know, the results or something's- hasn't gone well.

Steven Bartlett 13:19 You mentioned that, that post-match feeling is, is the best and potentially the feeling you miss and I've- but I've also heard you describe it as relief.

Jamie Carragher 13:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 13:26 You know? And that's, um, that's an interesting thing 'cause people would think the post-match victory feeling would be euphoria and elation, but for you to describe it as relief is a curious word.

Jamie Carragher 13:38 Because I knew how bad I'd feel if we didn't win or it hadn't gone well. It was almost relief that I'm not gonna feel like that for the- uh, next two or three days because I, I would... I think I punished meself a little bit when I didn't perform well or we didn't win and I regret that, but I don't know if I could have done anything different. It was what... It was me. You know, I, I spoke to a psy- at one stage I spoke to a- I had to, I had to, I wasn't asked to, I had to get hold of a psychologist, sports psychologist who I knew because what I was doing to meself was... I was just driving meself mad really with the standards I was expecting of meself and this, I must say, was not when I was not playing well and short of confidence. This when I- was when I was at my absolute peak and best. That's when I needed more help because I got to a stage where I felt I couldn't make a mistake. If I, if, if I didn't play well, I thought we were gonna lose. Yeah, I, I, I was g- because I wa- I wasn't daft. I was playing at me best. I was a huge part of the team and there, there was sort of me at the back and Stevie Gerrard at the front, if you like, and there was lots of other great players around then of course, but I knew I was a huge influence in the Rafa Benitez era, era and I felt... I'd go into big games thinking, "If I don't play well today we're not gonna win." And if I made a mistake, and I always remember the mistake I made, it was away at Atletico Madrid, Champions League group game, we're winning one-nil, we're under pressure constantly and I'm, I'm, I'm playing really well. I'm in control. This was the- that was me in my element away from home in Europe for Liverpool, trying to get that clean sheet, organizing, talking to everyone and a long ball and I just misjudged it and he scored and in the airport on the way home I was just like, "This can't go on. Uh, uh, this has got to stop." You know, the... what I'm actually doing to meself. I've played great, I've made a little mistake, you know, they've capitalized on it, but you can't put yourself through that.

Steven Bartlett 15:36 What was the symptoms that you were confronting in that moment? Why- what couldn't carry on? So you'd made that mistake, you're in the airport, you're on the plane, whatever. What is the- what's happening?

Jamie Carragher 15:46 I couldn't get it out me mind. I couldn't... I'd, I'd go like two, two nights when I was sleeping. I mean, when I say not sleeping, I might, I might get a couple of hours. I'd be, be like constantly on me mind. I'd wake up, it would be the first thing I think about and I was just like, "Uh, what am I doing to meself?" But how do you stop it? But the- but the fascinating thing was, w- when I spoke to the sports psychologist, a guy called Bill Beswick and I knew him from the England squad. After speaking to him a- and then it got to the stage where I spoke to him probably two or three times a season, almost like I'd reflect and, you know, what's gone on. I couldn't change. We actually got to the bottom of, actually this is what's making you who you are. This is the drive to sort of... If, if you, if you did probably dismiss mistakes or were not too bothered, "Oh, I'll be, I'll be fine next week," that wouldn't make y- I- wouldn't make you who you are.

Steven Bartlett 16:41 Hmm.

Jamie Carragher 16:41 And I, I could still never shake it off. I could- I couldn't, but I almost... By speaking to him, it made me understand and accept that's what it was. So I still went through turmoil if I didn't play well, if I made a mistake. I always wonder if that was like a by-product of being a local player. I always think, "What would I have been like if I'd have played for Aston Villa or Tottenham or..." You know, I'd... I didn't know that many people. You know, it felt like you were playing for the club or the supporters or your family and friends really. You know, it was-

Steven Bartlett 17:17 Did you, did you ever feel anxiety in those moments? The feeling of anxiety?

Jamie Carragher 17:21 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:21 So when something is plaguing you so much that you almost feel that kind of sense of nervous energy that keeps you up at night and you feel it in your stomach.

Jamie Carragher 17:27 No. It was never anxiety. I would say anger in that I want to put this right. It's like I didn't even wanna sleep, I wanna get to training the next day.

Steven Bartlett 17:35 Did that come out in your home life? 'Cause it's hard not to take that home with you.

Jamie Carragher 17:40 It... Yeah, I think it will have done. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I, I, I remember something came up a year or two ago on the- on Twitter about a s- a group of players or a certain player, or maybe even a manager went out and had a meal or a few drinks after they'd lost and there was this big debate on, uh, on Twitter, "Well, why shouldn't they..." You know, some fan- you know what fans are like-

Steven Bartlett 18:09 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 18:09 ... "He shouldn't be like, they shouldn't go out." And there was this huge, big debate and I think Gary Lineker mentioned something that I've never not...... change, I've- I've never changed me plans on the back of results. Okay, that, that sounds nice. I thought it was unbelievable. I would change plans every single week if that game didn't go well. So that's where it was affecting my home life. So in terms of organizing a night out, going for a meal with friends, whatever it may be, I couldn't ha- I couldn't have shown me face if we'd have lost and I played poorly. Not a chance. And I couldn't believe that some players could, could just carry on with their life. I'd be a bit like, "Oh, no." You... No. Y- Because the feeling in your stomach is that bad. You just, you don't even wanna be... You just don't wanna be there. You don't wanna be with people, you don't wanna speak. You know, that's, that's wh- how much it got me. And, and I go back to that, you know. Would it have been different at another club? I would never have wanted to play for another club, but that is the one thing I do think about. Would it have... Results and performances affected me differently?

Steven Bartlett 19:11 You come home after a, you know, losing a game or something. You got your family there, your kids running up, "Hey."

Jamie Carragher 19:19 I mean, t- to be fair, me kids were quite young when I wa- I was still playing. But there, there was one game that stands out when I couldn't get out of something. I was opening a restaurant. I opened a, a restaurant about 10 or 15 years ago called Cathy Sports England in Liverpool. And the two times we opened, those two games I didn't play well. And in my head before the game, I'm thinking, "I've got to play well in this game 'cause people will think if I don't play well, I've got me mind somewhere else." And I was probably too focused on the game in some ways. And then I had to go and almost open the restaurant and there was people there. And I remember the second one it was like, "No." I went, I was there 20 minutes and I was like, "I've got to go."

Steven Bartlett 20:05 If I spoke to Nicola, which I might have done, but I won't tell you before this, when I asked the question-

Jamie Carragher 20:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:09 ... and I said, "When Jamie loses a game, is he different? And what's he like?" What would she have said to me?

Jamie Carragher 20:15 100%, yeah. 100%.

Steven Bartlett 20:18 What would she have said, do you reckon?

Jamie Carragher 20:20 "He's not there when I'm talking to him." I think she'd probably say that. Maybe now at different times, but I would be, I would be in a trance. I, I'd just be sort of daydreaming as people would be speaking to me. And it's probably best she used to leave me alone and not try and get me mind off it 'cause I, I couldn't. Even if I, if I did get me mind off it, I know I'd go back to it. And, and you're talking about g- going home. I always remember one time where I said I was in a trance where I was with the players. So I always remember we were playing a game against Everton, which for me is the biggest game. I had a nightmare in the game. And we were going for a meal afterwards with the team, like an official... N- not a sort of few drinks. It was, it was to, to, to refuel basically. This game was an early morning kickoff. We had a Champions League game on the Tuesday night in, in, in Eindhoven. We got beat 3-nil at Goodison. And we've gone to the center of Liverpool for a meal just to make sure we're eating the right food. And I remember just staring, just couldn't stop. I was just... Wasn't even eating. Just, just staring. And next thing I get a text message, Stevie Gerrard, he's just like, he's there, he's going, "Don't worry about it. It's gone, finished. Forget about... You know, just, you've got to try and..." But I was just like, he could just see g- everyone was devastated. But for me, I, I just... No, I'm not trying to make out that I cared more than anybody else 'cause everyone's got their own-

Steven Bartlett 21:54 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 21:55 ... ways of dealing with things. But I... Y- yeah, it was a... Yeah, it was... It's a huge part of my life, football. It always has been, always will be. I think I'll always be affected by football results. When I went, that's when I was playing as an Everton fan, as a Liverpool fan right now, football results will affect me.

Steven Bartlett 22:17 It sounds painful. It sounds like suffering. Doesn't sound like (laughs) fun.

Jamie Carragher 22:20 Well, when you win, I, that's true, I can assure you, I- I make sure I, I, I, I enjoy them. I know afterwards I said before that it was relief, but y- you had that moment of sort of joy. The reason it was difficult to enjoy and why I'm probably different to a Peter Crouch or certain players who came in as a... I think they'd come in from clubs where they played once a week, and if they played well, it was like, "I don't need to worry to that game."

Steven Bartlett 22:42 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 22:43 "I'm gonna be off for two or three days." Whereas we'd have a game Tuesday, Champions League or a cup game, and then it'd be, "Right, enjoy that." Right, bang, we're back on it now. It was almost like, poof, you're just on this train and you, poof, nothing's getting in the way, nothing's, nothing's stopping. But I can assure you, it wasn't all doom and gloom. I, I loved it and so many nights and times and experiences, but I do wish I was a little bit kinder to meself on the back of a poor performance or a defeat. I mean, there's one, uh, I- I keep thinking about one standing out. We, we, we won the FA Cup final in 2006. Personally, I'd had a great season. We'd, we'd, we'd kept 33 clean sheets, which was one away from a record, which it was like-

Steven Bartlett 23:25 Jesus Christ.

Jamie Carragher 23:25 Which was obviously a lot. We played the cup final, I scored an own goal. I didn't play well. Stevie Gerrard wins the final and we go on the open bus tour around Liverpool. So I've had a great season, but not had a great last game. And me son's on the bus with me. And I go on the top of the bus to start with, but you're on the bus for maybe three or four hours. Within an hour, I was downstairs. I just sat there thinking, "Oh, it didn't go well. I didn't do that, you know. I didn't do..." And I was thinking, now when I look at it, I'm embarrassed. I'm like, "What are you doing? It was one game. You've had an unbelievable season, the team have. We won the FA Cup, we finished the season with a trophy." But I couldn't... It was almost like I was up there acting 'cause I didn't feel like celebrating. But we'd won the cup. You know, and just 'cause I hadn't, I, I, I'd made a, a mistake, hadn't played particularly well, I know most players would be able to go, "I've had a great season. I- it was only one game. We won."... I found it tough.

Steven Bartlett 24:19 People that have that winner's mindset, they, um, as you kind of alluded to a second ago, they often struggle to understand those that don't, to relate to them. Th- and they often have a lot of friction with the people that don't have the winner's mindset because when you see the world in that way, I saw it a lot in, um, Michael Jordan's documentary, Last Dance.

Jamie Carragher 24:37 It was brilliant, wasn't it? Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:38 Amazing. I think I got a poster upstairs bec- after I watched it. But, um, he had that mindset where he was, you, you could see he would, like, pick on certain people who d- who wouldn't meet him at his level. Did you ever find yourself and Stevie doing that, where if someone came into the dressing room and they, and they weren't at that level, you would, you would either f- you'd force them out or you'd... I mean, that's kind of what Peter Crouch was alluding to, right? That he was kind of saying that you two would be protecting the bar.

Jamie Carragher 25:05 Yeah, I mean, I think what, what happens is I think what, what Peter was trying to mention, which I think it was a little bit unfair the way he described it, was that when, when a new player came in, I think... Me and Stevie were fans. We weren't just players, we were fans. It was like, "Oh God, I hope he's good." You know, like a fan would hope this new fella's good.

Steven Bartlett 25:23 Yeah, yeah.

Jamie Carragher 25:23 And when you come in after the f- the first training session, it'd be more than a joke. "Oh God, this doesn't look good, does it?" Or, you, you know what I mean? That type of thing. Like, "Oh God, I hope this goes well." Uh, but I was... Stevie, Stevie was different to me and I was very vocal, very emotional. Stevie's maybe body language on the pitch at times would be questioned if, you know, he wasn't happy with somebody, he might turn away. You know, whereas I'd be remonstrating, screaming, shouting, you know. And not in terms of someone hadn't played poor- uh, poorly, or... Might've been more in terms of organization, someone doing the job for the team. Where are you where you need to be? I a- I always felt like I was the coach of the team in some ways and... Because I played at center back and I could, you know, see the whole team in, in front of me. Yeah, but we would be on top of people, but I don't, I wouldn't like that to come across in, like, a, a bullying way or we were trying to, you know, keep people down here. We loved Torro- uh, Torres, Alonso. C- we love being around great players 'cause you wanted, because you wanted to win.

Steven Bartlett 26:24 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 26:24 That was all that mattered. It wasn't about securing your place or making sure I was protected in any way. It was that thing of like, "It's Liverpool." It... Uh, the big clubs, it's not enough to play for them. And I know some people think, "I played for this club," and it's on your CV and it's a great achievement to get to a, a Liverpool, a United, Chelsea, City. But it's not enough to play for them, you've got to win. The, the whole existence of those clubs is about winning. If they're not winning, there's no point. You know, so that was my thi- my, my drive at Liverpool was to win every single day.

Steven Bartlett 26:59 When Gerard Houllier

Steven Bartlett 27:00 came in, came in as a manager... It's Houllier. Is it Houllier? Gerrard. We'll just call him Gerrard Houllier. Um, when he arrived at L- uh, Liverpool in, I think it was 1986? 1998. 1998, he came into the, the club. Um, the players took to him at first, as I read, 'cause he, one of the key decisions he made was around Paul Ince.

Jamie Carragher 27:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:21 Was that-

Jamie Carragher 27:21 You said the players took to him?

Steven Bartlett 27:22 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 27:22 Um, no, I think he found it difficult to start with.

Steven Bartlett 27:24 Oh, really?

Jamie Carragher 27:24 I think there was a, a, a big split in the camp, in that the players who'd come before that with Roy Evans and Gerrard Houllier came in, he was new to it. And, yeah, I think it was tough for him in that first season. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:39 Did, did that turn at some point? Did he win the trust of the players?

Jamie Carragher 27:42 Yeah. I mean, it l- yeah, he, he... P- Paul Ince, uh, great, great fella. I got on great with Paul Ince. Great player as well. Didn't have the career that Liverpool he's had maybe at other clubs. And I think Gerard Houllier just wanted to make a fresh start and he wanted to... I think most, a lot of managers do it. The, the take on, you know, the, uh, the big guy, if you like. And, uh, he was certainly that. He was... I think he was maybe England's captain or vice-captain at the time. But he wanted to completely revolutionize Liverpool and completely change it. And, yeah, he had a, words with, with Paul Ince. And the thing was not about him having words as such, but also the fact that he didn't sort of back down, he really held his own. He had a strong argument in, in the team meeting. And you think, "Wow, he's just stood up to probably one of the best midfield players of his generation."

Steven Bartlett 28:35 What was that strong argument in the team meeting?

Jamie Carragher 28:37 It was, it was over Paul Ince questioning what we were doing in training. A- as senior pros do at times, you know, the... We're trying to get it right. "Why are we doing this? Why are we doing that?" And I think Gerard Houllier saw it as his opportunity to sort of stamp his authority. It was almost like, I would imagine, he was glad Paul Ince had said it and it was o- it was Paul Ince in some ways. And I don't think the message was for Paul Ince 'cause I think he was always gonna get rid of Inci. I think the message was to the rest of us, you know, "Don't, don't try and take me on."

Steven Bartlett 29:06 What, he-

Jamie Carragher 29:06 "This is what we're gonna do."

Steven Bartlett 29:07 ... p- publicly in front of, in the team meeting-

Jamie Carragher 29:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:10 ... told Paul?

Jamie Carragher 29:11 Yeah, basically. W- no, "You wouldn't be at this club anymore," but he, he questioned his desire in a game. Uh, and to be fair, Paul Ince was probably one of the bravest footballers you'd see. But in a particular game against, uh, Manchester United, we'd lost it 2-1 and we'd lost two goals in the last minute and I think it was a very sore defeat for everyone. So I think everyone was a little bit emotional about it. And, uh, because Inci had jumped up and said something, he just went straight back and said he wasn't happy that he, he'd come off. "He shouldn't have come off. My captain shouldn't come off on a stretcher from Old Trafford." And it, it was, it was interesting with Gerard Houllier in that w- we h- we had him, the first foreign manager, and all of a sudden people would associate him with this flair football and being maybe a bit nice. But that was, that was what the Liverpool team was before Gerard Houllier came. He completely went the other way and was, wanted big, strong, powerful players, aggression. And that's why me and him had such a great relationship, because I was such a competitor. Maybe he didn't have the quality that some of the players had in the Roy Evans team, if you like, and some of the football they played was outstanding.... but he just wanted people who would die for that

Jamie Carragher 30:23 shirt.

Steven Bartlett 30:23 'Cause I, I read that part of the reason why his reign as manager sort of came to an end was because he made some bad signings and he was... he didn't really inquire enough about the players that he was signing's character and their personality. And so... And I was just so compelled by that idea that that's one of the most important things when you're building teams is finding people that have the same, like, mentality and character versus just great sort of technical players. I think about the same in business. Like, I'm always c- considering how someone will, um, support our culture, make our culture better, raise the bar, um, in terms of, like, that mentality versus just being able to do fucking 1,000 kick-ups or whatever. Loads of skills.

Jamie Carragher 31:03 Yeah. I, I, I think you do need a certain mentality to play for Liverpool-

Steven Bartlett 31:07 What is that mentality?

Jamie Carragher 31:08 ... and the other big clubs. (sighs) To be able to withstand pressure, criticism that comes your way. So often I saw a lot of Liverpool players who would start really well and it wouldn't, it wouldn't make me think, "We've got a great player here." I'd always think, "Let's see a couple of months down the line." 'Cause I knew what was coming because every player goes through a few bad games, he gets criticism, whatever it may be. And I saw too many players never recover from that. And that, that tells me that for me, the top level football is mentality. It was y- Do you have that personality, character to get you through those tough moments and come back and fight back and not give in?

Steven Bartlett 31:54 Can you teach that?

Jamie Carragher 31:56 I don't know. You tell me. D- What do you think?

Steven Bartlett 32:00 (smacks lips) Um, I tend to believe that it comes from ex- experience. I think resilience and that sort of character, those character traits come from being knocked down loads of times. So when the 10th failure or knockdown comes, or the 10th moment of hardship comes, you're more equipped to deal with it.

Jamie Carragher 32:18 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:19 Um, so players that haven't been through the tougher, you know, challenges in their life, maybe in their personal life, maybe where they come from, don't have that.

Jamie Carragher 32:27 Well, it's interesting. W- we're doing this, uh, this afternoon and this morning my son went in for a knee operation.

Steven Bartlett 32:34 Your son did?

Jamie Carragher 32:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:35 Right.

Jamie Carragher 32:35 So he's gone in for a knee operation. He's a professional footballer. And painfully haven't been able to probably sleep about it, thinking about it. You know, just (breathes deeply) you just wanna do as much as you can, you know, to, to help them 'cause it's your son. (smacks lips) But the thing I keep drumming home to him, and I keep saying it almost every day, "We're not using this as an excuse. This is not getting in the way." It's like, this happened, is it? Okay, boomf. We're going again. It's like, this I know for a lot of people or players or young players or whatever it may be, would be a hurdle to come across and understandably so, but it's not in years to come gonna be, "Oh, I didn't quite do what I wanted because of that knee op." Yeah, and this never happened and, and that. It's like, no. There's, there's gonna be lots of things in his career, as in my career, obstacles in the way, you just, you've gotta get over them. You've gotta get them out the way or you've gotta deal with it and then keep going. Nothing's... And that was always my mindset and that's what I'm trying to put into my son. I'm, I'm pretty confident he's got, he's got that mindset of nothing stops you. Nothing gets in your way. You don't use anything as an excuse or a reason why something didn't happen. That no excuse mentality, you just, you keep going. Nothing gets... No- no obstacles in

Jamie Carragher 33:53 the way.

Steven Bartlett 33:54 You said earlier on that you might not have cared as much as you do... You might not have had that s- that same level of, um, sort of excruciating obsession and, and care about the results and the outcome and winning if you'd been at another club. And you were at another club, which is England.

Jamie Carragher 34:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 34:08 And you didn't seem to care as much. You said that.

Jamie Carragher 34:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:10 You remember? I, I, I was quite shocked to read that, that I remember the text message that said, "Fuck it, it's only England." And, um, generally you didn't seem to be as excruciatingly hard on yourself after losing for England as you did with losing for Liverpool.

Jamie Carragher 34:28 (smacks lips) I think that was down to the fact that I didn't carry the same responsibility because I, I never really played.

Steven Bartlett 34:34 Okay.

Jamie Carragher 34:34 I was like a, a squad player.

Steven Bartlett 34:35 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 34:36 Really. I wouldn't class myself as patriotic. (smacks lips) Not at all. I'm... Oh, I don't know what the... I don't know. Can you be patriotic of your own city? Is that, is that a word or is, is there something-

Steven Bartlett 34:45 I have no idea.

Jamie Carragher 34:46 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 34:48 (laughs)

Jamie Carragher 34:48 I'm massively pa- I'm massively passionate about my own city. And maybe that comes from the way we, we're brought up in Liverpool. (smacks lips) You know, the (sighs) thing of you feel as if like a lot of the country's against you. And maybe that's... Some of it's true. Some people outside of it feel, think, "Oh, that's a chip on your shoulder." But th- there is that sort of... We sort of buy into that. And that doesn't mean, like, I'm against England as such, but it... Watching England now in the World Cup would never take me to a place emotionally the way it would if I saw Liverpool playing. It just wouldn't take me there. It's not like a, a conscious thing of, "Ugh, I'm, I'm not gonna make... I'm not gonna be happy about this." It's just (breathes deeply) inside me. And, and, and, and that wasn't just when I was playing for them, that was when I was a, a child. I'd be thinking, "Why aren't England picking the Everton players?" You know, it almost felt like England was a team from down south or a London team.

Steven Bartlett 35:44 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 35:45 (smacks lips) That's just the, the feeling I had. And, but I think if, if I would've become a mainstay of the England team, I think I would've felt that. I think I would've got there. And that's my one disappointment in my football career. It's the only team in my life, from when I started at five years of age, I didn't dominate. And when I say dominate, was (sighs) be a mainstay of the team, be one of the voices of the team, be one of the leaders, 'cause I wasn't good enough. That's a simple fact.

Steven Bartlett 36:14 There's lots of players that you've encountered in your career that didn't reach their potential. You're talking about reaching your potential, doing your best, getting to the, getting to the top of your potential a second ago. When you think about why those players didn't reach their potential, if you had to point out characteristics or behaviors that led them to miss their potential, what would those behaviors be? The traits of losers.

Jamie Carragher 36:34 Hmm.... I think blaming other people at different times for th- for their own poor games, mistakes, alwa- always looking for excuses, I would say. I think I'm, I'm pretty honest and I was as a player and I always remember when I was a young lad, I had a, I had a bad game. I keep talking about my bad games, don't I? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 36:58 Yeah. (laughs) I was thinking about how you had a good one.

Jamie Carragher 37:00 You remember them all.

Steven Bartlett 37:01 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 37:02 But a very famous coach who was, who was a huge inspiration to me was Ronnie Moran and, uh, I played a game and played poorly and I did an interview after the game saying it was my fault, those goals were my fault. And even though this was the, a coach who was a, a real sort of man's man, a legend of Liverpool Football Club, he wasn't the coach then. He, he still used to come in and walk around the training ground. And he said, "Don't ever do that again." He said, "You don't need to open yourself up like that." He said, "Be honest with him in the dressing room and to your manager," but he said, "You know what I mean? Sometimes you've got to be clever and look after yourself a little bit and you don't need to be as honest. You, you think you're doing the right thing." And I th- and I think he... I, I, I knew exactly where he was coming from and I think at times you need to be honest, but I think, uh, probably there were other times like that you maybe need to protect yourself a little bit, but you never-

Steven Bartlett 37:56 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 37:57 ... hide behind the fact that it was someone else's fault. And again, I, I keep going back to my son because I'm not a, a coach or a manager and people say to me, "You know, could you give something back?" But I've, I just want to give it back to my son and things like that. Don't question the manager. Don't make excuses, don't blame the manager. Or if you come in and say, or the coach or the trainer, well, get something out of it. Don't, don't, don't be in the dressing room saying, "Oh, this isn't good or that isn't good."

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Steven Bartlett 40:11 On the point of questioning the manager, one of the things I read was that Gerard Houlia, Houlia, I can't say his bloody name.

Jamie Carragher 40:16 Houllier.

Steven Bartlett 40:17 Houllier, cool.

Jamie Carragher 40:18 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:18 One of the reasons why he, uh, ultimately ended up leaving the club, um, was 'cause he'd started to lose his authority in the dressing room. Now Peter Crouch said to me that great managers, even when they don't know the right answers, pretend they do because they know that if they ever get to a point where the players know that they're not in control, then the authority's gone. And there was a story I read about Gerard Houlie-a, um, picking a team and then going and asking Gerrard if it was the correct team and then Gerrard said it's not the correct team and changed it. This happened in, in spring in 2004 in a-

Jamie Carragher 40:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 40:54 ... in the run up to a Premier League match away to Manchester United. Gerard Houllier picked the team, but then consulted with Gerrard whether the selection was right, who said it wasn't right, and then Houllier changed it.

Jamie Carragher 41:06 I don't, I don't... it rings a bell. I don't know the specific game, if that was the right game, but I think towards the end of his time, I think the results aren't going well... and managers, no matter who they are, they will lose confidence. And Stevie at that time was obviously a, a mega star and you're trying to maybe keep people on side, if you like. Not that I think the players were ever offside with, with Gerard Houllier, but that confidence and belief in the manager starts to ebb away when results don't go well. I wouldn't say Gerard Houllier ever lost the dressing room in terms of how we felt about him as a man, but it was, it was a time for it to come to an end. There's no doubt about that. And it's an interesting one, that. Does a manager lose the dressing room? Yes. He's, he's always lost part of a dressing room 'cause of the players who he's not picking, but I think it's when that belief goes, really. But for me, again, I think I was different to other players because I never played for the manager, ever. I always played for the club. And again, because it was the c- I always felt like I played for the club and the supporters. And I'm not saying that to curry favor with the supporters as such, but no manager bought me, you know? I, I, I didn't owe a manager anything as such. I mean, Roy Evans gave me, me debut, I suppose, and other managers played me, but I never had that sort of feeling that we need to win this for the manager.

Steven Bartlett 42:40 ... Rafa Benítez comes in next.

Jamie Carragher 42:42 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:43 What's the difference between Gérard Houllier and Rafa Benítez in terms of style? 'Cause I find it so compelling that managers can be great for various different reasons, and we think of management as like a formula.

Jamie Carragher 42:54 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:54 But as I sit here with football players that have had seven, eight, nine managers, they all say that managers are completely different in their style and approach.

Jamie Carragher 43:01 Yeah, Rafa was completely different. Gérard Houllier was a manager. I think Gérard Houllier was the type of guy who could... He could manage an organization, didn't just have to be football. I think he could've been a bank manager. He could've been a CEO, if you like.

Steven Bartlett 43:19 Hmm.

Jamie Carragher 43:19 He organized people, get everyone focused on, you know, what do we want to achieve and... But the actual day-to-day stuff of coaching, I don't think was in his forte. And it, and it might sound strange, I don't think he had a, a huge knowledge of the game. Enough, but it wasn't someone who was gonna say something, something to you in a coaching session or a tactical point that made you think, "Oh, never heard that before." Or, "That's a bit different." It wasn't like that. His thing was bringing people together for a common goal and, and, and almost when I've described him to other people, people say Clive Woodward, the, the England rugby coach, World Cup-winning coach, was probably similar in that. Now he's, he's had all the coaches, but he's always been coming up with ideas to create sort of a siege mentality, a togetherness. Whereas Rafa was a coach, he was on that training pitch every day and he was a lot colder than Gérard Houllier. He was a lot more interested in the kids, the wife, you know, yourself. You know, he'd speak, ask me about my dad or different things like that. Whereas Gérard Hou- er, Rafa didn't want to get involved in anything like that for him. It was just football. I mean, if... The guy was obsessed with football. Rafa was just like, he was probably above me. So we... But it was different, but it doesn't... I, I mean, I'll be honest with you, when we describe managers, like the one who come a couple after was Roy Hodgson and it didn't go particularly well, but my point is, when a new manager comes in, I want to get whatever I can from them. So he may not work for Liverpool. I may not like X, but I might like Y and Z.

Steven Bartlett 44:53 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 44:54 So, so you're always gotta be a sponge and, and taking things in and learning things. And I think when Gérard Houllier came in, I was a bit-part player and then became a fully-fledged member of Liverpool's first 11 for the next five years. And then Rafa came in and then be- again stepped up a level to become the vice captain and one of the leaders in the team, one of the best players in the team. So I always think I got the most from these oth- these other managers coming in, you know, who... Certainly Gérard Houllier, I don't think would've ever heard of me.

Steven Bartlett 45:27 Hmm.

Jamie Carragher 45:27 Maybe, you know, not too much, but I think it's important when people come into your life, figures of authority, you've got to basically squeeze everything out of them-

Steven Bartlett 45:37 Hmm.

Jamie Carragher 45:38 ... to your advantage. And I think I did that with both managers.

Steven Bartlett 45:42 Let's do the biggest pro and con then. So from what I under- uh, of these individuals as managers. So Gérard Houllier you said he's a, a great sort of man-manager CEO type. That's probably, from what I hear, one of his greatest strengths. His downside is maybe a lack of football knowledge. Is that what you're-

Jamie Carragher 45:55 I w- I wouldn't say it was a downside because he had coaches around him who, who did the training sessions. It just, it got to its, its natural end-

Steven Bartlett 46:03 Right.

Jamie Carragher 46:04 ... i- in that, you know, we shouldn't forget, I mean, he nearly lost his life managing Liverpool and he's then making decisions. Is he in a fully, you know, football-focused state of mind when he's actually recovering from almost losing his life? And we, we made a few signings that didn't work and, and to be honest, that's always how it ends for Liverpool managers when it comes to the end that they have a summer where they buy a few players, they don't quite work out.

Steven Bartlett 46:29 Hmm.

Jamie Carragher 46:30 And then the next manager has to, has to come in 'cause, you know, the, the energy and the excitement, not just from the squad but also the supporters just petering out.

Steven Bartlett 46:37 So Rafa's g- great tactically, obsessed with football, obsessed with the game, but his sort of downside was if there... I mean everyone has a fucking downside. I have a downside as a manager and a CEO.

Jamie Carragher 46:45 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:46 Is, is probably the, the man-management stuff?

Jamie Carragher 46:48 Yeah, but I, I don't think that's, that stops us winning as such.

Steven Bartlett 46:52 Yeah, it's just a different approach.

Jamie Carragher 46:52 Just that, that, you know, nobody is everything.

Steven Bartlett 46:54 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 46:55 Alex Ferguson is not a coach. He's-

Steven Bartlett 46:56 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 46:56 ... probably more like a Gérard Houllier-type figure-

Steven Bartlett 46:58 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 46:58 ... as coach is there. Ra- Rafa Benítez people's, will question his man-management, but I, I don't question it as such and I don't question Gérard Houllier or other managers. You've just gotta do what's your strength. That's your strength. So what... If Rafa Benítez's strength is not the man-management and putting this act on, it's all about being obsessed with football and coaching every single day, do what you're good at. And he is good at-

Steven Bartlett 47:21 That's what I find interesting is there's so many ways to win because when I s-

Jamie Carragher 47:24 100%.

Steven Bartlett 47:24 ... sat here with all the United players, Rio, Patrice, Gary, they all say about Sir Alex Ferguson, they go, "Man-manager but only came in the training room dressing room around twice in 26 years," or whatever. And I, and then you hear about these other people like Rafa who also tremendously successful, um, won the biggest trophies you could possibly win but wasn't that way inclined.

Jamie Carragher 47:44 History is written by the winner.

Steven Bartlett 47:45 Hmm.

Jamie Carragher 47:45 It, it doesn't matter what you do. So if, if Sir Alex Ferguson doesn't do well at Man United, those same players will be saying to you, "He's never at the training ground."

Steven Bartlett 47:54 Yeah, yeah.

Jamie Carragher 47:54 "He's never there."

Steven Bartlett 47:55 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 47:55 "We don't do tactical work. He doesn't do any coaching." It, it's all about winning and, and to be honest, what you're saying there is interesting because one time I remember Rafa Benítez, he, he knew someone at United and he said, "Ferguson doesn't even coach." Because in Rafa's mind you've got to be... To be a top man, you're a coach. You know, I think when him and Mourinho came along, they were like coaches and probably couldn't get their heads around the way Alex Ferguson was. And it was almost, it was almost a little bit dismissive and it wasn't like I was trying to defend the Manchester United manager, it was just at training. "Even Ferguson doesn't even do the coaching." I said, "So what?"

Steven Bartlett 48:29 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 48:29 It's like, it doesn't matter. He wins. There's different ways of winning and, and that's my thing on TV now. There's no right or wrong way to play football. It's being the best you can be at what you do.... and that, and if that's what Rafa Benitez is being on my training ground, coaching, not getting involved in stuff away from the pitch, well that's someone else's job. You know, no one is perfect at any... Alex Ferguson wasn't a great coach, so he brought in great coaches. I think that's really important, not just in, in, in football management. I actually think in life, in that, for me, I'm a little bit wary of getting involved in things where I think, "That's not my area of expertise." I think that'd be a little bit arrogant of meself to think I could just parachute meself in there and, you know, start running the show or get right involved in it. So I think we, we all gotta know where our strengths are and all gotta know where we need help because we all need help.

Steven Bartlett 49:21 That's what Richard Branson taught me. Um, you know, reading through his story but also ge- getting to speak to him on this podcast, this is a guy who didn't know what the difference between net profit and gross profit until I think he was 50, which is the, one of the key principle, like, understandings of running a business. Dyslexic, can't look at presentations. If you try and show him words on a slide deck, he, he'll, he won't look at it, he'll only look at pictures. He's got so many deficiencies in areas that you think are critical to business. But the one thing that everyone says, he says and everyone around him says, was because of all of his deficiencies, he made up for it by being the best delegator in the world. So he found people that could plug all of these gaps and gave them huge responsibility. And you think, you know, by the age of... At the same time when he doesn't know the difference between net profit and gross profit, he's running 50 different companies. Virgin is now 400 different companies. And you go, how is someone who's, in his own words, like, not good at business, doing that? Well, just a supreme delegator. And Sir Alex Ferguson the same, bad coach but had... Can't remember his name, that guy that did it.

Jamie Carragher 50:24 Carlos Queiroz-

Steven Bartlett 50:24 Carlos, Carlos, that was it.

Jamie Carragher 50:24 ... Steve McQueen, lots of different ones, didn't he? But-

Steven Bartlett 50:26 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 50:27 ... I think, I think what you're saying is really good because the career that I've had has, has afforded me so many opportunities, I'm so fortunate that I, I meet... I'm speaking to you, you know, you're speaking to other people who are ex- experts in their field. But when you speak to them, and that story about Richard Branson is perfect in that, if, if you don't know them and, you know... Say my family and friends, sometimes they're fascinated by some of the people I meet and I said, "I'm lucky to be in certain situations." And they look at these people like they're, they're extraordinary.

Steven Bartlett 51:01 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 51:02 And when you've got a sort of relationship with someone, whether it's someone I work on TV with, they're just normal people and they- they've got the same sort of insecurities that you've got.

Steven Bartlett 51:12 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 51:13 But they've got something about them where they've got sort of... Maybe it's an opportunity that's arisen, they've grabbed it with both hands, they've... An enthusiasm, something about them has put them in that position, but they're not extraordinary people. They've got an extraordinary talent for that-

Steven Bartlett 51:31 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 51:32 ... you know, and, and which finds themselves, I feel it, in that field. So that thing where s- people are so impressed with someone or think they're going to give them these words that they've never heard of before-

Steven Bartlett 51:43 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 51:43 ... I think the older I get now I realize that a lot of people in, you know, great positions, it's not because they're some genius.

Steven Bartlett 51:50 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 51:51 Sometimes it's, as I said, it's opportunity, they've seen a niche in the market, whatever it may be, they've just gone out there and grabbed it.

Steven Bartlett 51:57 You know, there's a real trap I've noticed, based on exactly what you've said, where someone's successful, so what we do is we assume that they get everything right. And so with Richard Branson, because he's a s- super successful entrepreneur, we assume that he's the best at marketing, branding, finance, all of these things. And I noticed this a lot when I was in San Francisco and we were... It was when Snapchat, the app had blown up and we were building a chat app. And what you'd see the team doing was whenever we were trying to make a decision, we, the team were going, "Well, what does Snapchat do?" Because Snapchat was successful, we assumed that their marketing strategy, every feature they had, everything they did with the login form, every- we assumed everything they did was right. Um, and I came to, I came to sort of see that bias in myself and it's exactly what you've described. If we see someone who is at the top of the game, we assume that they are godlike in everything. And that's what you do with Richard Branson. Assume he's the best speaker in the world, you assume he's the best salesman in the... No. In reality, from what I've learned from doing this and honestly looking at my own life, because I'm not actually good at business. Like I'm not good at the business stuff, I'm not good at like-

Jamie Carragher 52:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:58 ... finance, um, operations, processes, but I'm good at this one thing. And that's what I learned from Richard, is Richard's good at this one thing. He's like good... I'd say he's good at the branding piece, but he's, he's just an unbelievable delegator.

Jamie Carragher 53:10 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:11 Um, so that's...

Steven Bartlett 53:12 Yeah, I mean that's, that's what I got from all of that but it's, it's funny having this conversation in the wake of Richard Branson because he's the, the best example of that. One of the, obviously one of the defining moments, uh, I think in football generally, not just as Liver- as a Liverpool player or a Liverpool fan, was that final away at Istanbul. You, uh, you go in at halftime. I think it was 2005 final? You go in three-nil down. When you go down that tunnel at three-nil down, honestly, do you think you can turn that game around?

Jamie Carragher 53:41 No. No, no. Not at all. No.

Steven Bartlett 53:44 What are you thinking when you walk through the tunnel then?

Jamie Carragher 53:46 It's gonna be six-nil.

Steven Bartlett 53:47 Is that what you're thinking?

Jamie Carragher 53:48 Mm-hmm. Well, how can we stop it being six-nil? I think if you lose a game three-nil, it happens. If you lose five or six-nil, it's remembered. And that was my fear. That was fear.

Steven Bartlett 54:04 What happened in the dressing room? What did Rafa say?

Jamie Carragher 54:06 Not a lot. He wasn't a motivator. He was a, he was a tactician. And, uh, he made changes in there system-wise, strategically to, to change it. But if I'm being honest, I think he changed... The changes he made was not to win the game. I think the changes he made was to stop it becoming five or six-nil. Because we actually brought on a defensive midfield player, Didi Hamann. We went to... You can call it a three at the back but it can, it can be five at the back if you like, rather than playing four. Don't get me wrong, the changes helped us go on and get the goals, but I think initially it's, "We need to stop what AC Milan are doing, otherwise this is going to be a massacre."

Steven Bartlett 54:43 Why did the game turn around?

Jamie Carragher 54:47 ... I think the changes Rafa made, a little bit of luck, and Steven Gerrard.

Steven Bartlett 54:54 Mm-hmm. He scores the header-

Jamie Carragher 54:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:56 ... 54 minutes or something, and then within a couple more minutes you've, you're three nothing, you're 3-3 up.

Jamie Carragher 55:00 That, that's, that's the little bit of luck you need. You score so quickly right after. That, that, that happens in some games. And (smacks lips) we did get a little bit of luck. Uh, I think the linesman actually flagged for an offside. The referee didn't see it and he carried on playing for 30 seconds, so the, the linesman puts his flag down. And that's in the run up to us getting our second goal. So we score the second goal and then (smacks lips) 03:08 ) . It just, you know when you're on a football pitch, you smell it, it's 3-2. (inhales deeply) We knew it was going... I knew it was gonna be 3-3. Everybody knew it was gonna be 3-3. You just-

Steven Bartlett 55:33 What is that?

Jamie Carragher 55:34 Me, I, I don't know. You just, the, the, the reason I know is because when we score 3-2, no one celebrates with the goal scorer. (smacks lips) Everyone just runs back.

Steven Bartlett 55:47 He started celebrating, didn't he?

Jamie Carragher 55:48 He starts celebrating, but it's-

Steven Bartlett 55:50 I-

Jamie Carragher 55:50 We need this.

Steven Bartlett 55:50 He was going crazy. I th-

Jamie Carragher 55:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:51 I remember thinking, "You shouldn't do that."

Jamie Carragher 55:52 Yeah. But everyone's back. It's like everyone's in, oof, in a zone. And you don't need to speak to other people. Sometimes there, there's moments in games where you just, (inhales deeply) you can smell it, you can feel it, something's happening.

Steven Bartlett 56:02 Is that a culture thing as well? Because there's certain clubs who have that. When, when they go two-nil down, three-nil down, no one, everyone goes, "Oh, they, they're gonna do it, they're gonna come back." And there's that mentality where you go, "Yeah, we're not safe here, they're coming for us."

Jamie Carragher 56:14 (smacks lips) I think Liverpool and Man United have got it.

Steven Bartlett 56:17 City seem to have it now.

Jamie Carragher 56:18 And City, yeah. Certainly in the last couple of years under Pep Guardiola. (inhales deeply) I've, I've always felt Chelsea have had that-

Steven Bartlett 56:24 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 56:24 ... in the last 10 years or so. Even when they weren't at their best, they'd still find a way to win. (inhales deeply) And yeah, I, I know our, our club's got that, and we'll always have that. You just, it just, (smacks lips) you feel like something's gonna happen.

Steven Bartlett 56:38 Why, why has Liverpool done so well in the Champions League?

Jamie Carragher 56:41 I think a lot of that is emotion. Belief.

Steven Bartlett 56:45 Getting, winning those finals as well.

Jamie Carragher 56:46 Yeah, winning finals, the history that's gone before. The Anfield crowd believe it, the opposition coming to Anfield believe that something's gonna happen special. This is a, this is a mythical football ground.

Steven Bartlett 56:57 Do you believe they're the best fans in the Premier League?

Jamie Carragher 57:00 I, I, I wouldn't say that. And the reason I wouldn't say that is because everybody thinks they're the best fans.

Steven Bartlett 57:03 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 57:04 And I think if I do say that, (smacks lips) I won't be turning on me Twitter notifications-

Steven Bartlett 57:08 (laughs)

Jamie Carragher 57:08 ... in a few days after this podcast comes out.

Steven Bartlett 57:10 (laughs)

Jamie Carragher 57:11 But, but no, eh, (smacks lips) I would say yes, I, I... But every set of supporters, what, what they do to follow their team home and away. I think Anfield's special. I don't think anyone could deny that, that there's something special at Anfield that doesn't happen at any other places. Where I think when we say that, you know, (inhales deeply) the crowd sucked the goal in, but the opposition manager would always say before the game, "No spectator's ever scored a goal." That's pretty obvious. But at Anfield it almost feels like I think even top managers, even Pep Guardiola, he's, his record at Anfield-

Steven Bartlett 57:48 Hmm.

Jamie Carragher 57:49 ... maybe the greatest manager of all time. He's had some of the greatest teams-

Steven Bartlett 57:52 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 57:52 ... of all time. His record at Anfield's horrendous. And, eh, he, he hasn't changed as a manager when he goes to Anfield. It's just like the environment, the atmosphere, just he... Mad things happen at Anfield.

Steven Bartlett 58:05 Was that the pinnacle of your career? That, that final back-

Jamie Carragher 58:07 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:07 ... at Istanbul?

Jamie Carragher 58:10 I have to be honest, I couldn't believe I was playing at that level.

Steven Bartlett 58:15 What do you mean?

Jamie Carragher 58:15 Well, I was a huge football fan, probably the biggest football fan in the dressing room, who, who was just obsessed with football. Read, watched, everything. And I know about all the great teams, you know, going back to the Real Madrid teams of the '50s, Di Stefano and Puskás. Uh, then you've probably got the Bayern Munich teams of Beckenbauer, Cruyff team just before that. (smacks lips) Uh, total football at Holland. Then you've got the AC Milan team. The great teams who dominate European football, AC Milan late '80s, early '90s. I could name all the players, what they did. Guardiola's team of Barcelona. Obviously that was after we were involved in the Champions League. And I'm very honest about my capability as a footballer, but I didn't think I was that level. Some people may still think I'm not. That's obviously football's opinions. But I always remember when we won the semifinal against Chelsea, I wasn't thinking, "Right, we're gonna win the Champions League." I was just... Me, me first few days afterwards was, "I'm playing in a Champions League final." You know, this is like Maldini, Baresi, Cruyff, you know, all these players who've, who, who I absolutely idolize and know so much about. They're defined by the European Cup or a tournament. I always think the greatest players of all time, they've either dominated the European Cup or they've won the World Cup or the Euros or something. It's, winning leagues is not enough. You've, to be really, put yourself on a level of the, the real greats, that's what they all do. And it was almost, "Wow, I can't believe I'm, I'm playing at this level."

Steven Bartlett 59:49 You know, that made me think about Ronaldo. Obviously he's, he's, he's out the World Cup now and you've, you've had a couple of strong opinions on Ronaldo over the last couple of weeks. So have I, to be honest, following the interview he did. And then ch... I'm a Man United fan so I, I didn't take it especially well s- what he said and how he did it, and I thought it was very self-serving and selfish, et cetera. Um, but there's probably another way to do it. And I, I wonder now, I actually wonder if he regrets doing it. I regret... I wonder if he, he knew it would play out like it did and then he'd go to the World Cup, be benched again, which almost kind of validates Erik ten Hag's position.

Jamie Carragher 1:00:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:22 But what's your whole stance on the Rona- Ronaldo saga?

Jamie Carragher 1:00:26 I, I actually only watched the full interview a couple of days ago, he did with Piers Morgan. I'd only seen clips of it. (smacks lips) And I watched the full interview. I'm not sure he's a guy who regrets anything or too much, if I'm being totally honest. Or certainly he doesn't give off that maybe in, in his private thoughts. (inhales deeply) I think the Portugal one will have, will have hurt him. But you know, it's...... he's fallible. You know, he's, he's not superhuman. He's, he's one of the greatest players of all time. He's, he's special, but I, I mean, I'm, I'm no huge Ronaldo fan. I think that's pretty obvious, and that's not for his footballing ability. I actually have got so much admiration for him for his mental strength.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:09 Hmm.

Jamie Carragher 1:01:09 I, I just think it's unbelievable. I think probably one of the strongest players mentally because he- he's had that thing his whole career. For how good he is, he's still had sort of Messi on his shoulder. It's always... He could never almost sit back and go, "I'm the best," and almost relax. He's always had this constant, "Yeah, but you're not as good as Messi." And I know people... it splits people, but I would say the majority of people would probably side with Messi. I, I would, I would imagine or I think that they do. And I think to always have that and always have that thing of trying to prove people wrong, and I've got that on a completely different level, it's almost like he feels like he's not rated, even though everyone says he's one of the best players of all time. And I, and I can't help but admire that drive because I've got that drive, but just not that ability that he's got. But I just... I mean, I'm saying I don't want him to sort of ruin his legacy with interviews. I mean, I don't really care. It's not, not my problem, but... It, it's, it's sad for him, the way these people are speaking about Messi towards the end of his career and Ronaldo, and it's completely different, and it's not to do with what's going on on the pitch. I think it's always that idea that Ronaldo was about himself, it was his ego, whereas Messi is painted as this like saint figure when I don't actually think that's true. But people don't know, want Messi to win the World Cup. You know, with Ronaldo it's like, he's not the same player, but he was the same player at 37, so he's getting criticized for not being the same player at 37, 38 when really he was getting lauded at that stage of his career, but because of the way he comes across, he storms off the pitch, uh, storms down the tunnel, he's giving that interview, people are obviously gunning for him now and, uh...

Steven Bartlett 1:02:50 Where does he go from here? 'Cause he, 'cause if he had had a phenomenal World Cup, then there'd probably be a lot of doors open for him. Some top sides would probably want him, even just for a year contract or something. But in the wake of being a disruptive employee at his last role and then going off to the Euros and being either a disruptive employee or just a l- po- po- poor-performing employee, it makes you wonder like, what manager is gonna wanna take on that ego, but also, without the upside you get with just like incredible on-field performance? So it's now just... It seems like it's just-

Jamie Carragher 1:03:19 He's tilted the other way now, isn't he?

Steven Bartlett 1:03:20 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 1:03:21 I mean, Ronaldo hasn't changed.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:23 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 1:03:23 He's always been that sort of character. Everyone's known that, but he was worth the hassle.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:28 Yeah, exactly.

Jamie Carragher 1:03:29 Now, and that's like everything in football. You know, when we talk about a manager making a decision, can you put up with that? And it's not, it's not... It's in your business, isn't it? In your life.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:39 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 1:03:39 You know, you don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:41 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 1:03:41 But when it gets to that stage where you're thinking, "This has become a more of a problem," and again, I say that to my son, you know, when a manager looks at you as a player, every manager wants the same thing. High performance, low maintenance. That's it. You know, certain players, you know, and it's when it goes... starts getting weighted to the high maintenance is basically the scales are more tilted towards the high maintenance, it's time to go.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:07 Did you see any high maintenance players in your career that were specific- particularly troublesome?

Jamie Carragher 1:04:14 That were or weren't?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:15 Were.

Jamie Carragher 1:04:17 It's funny at Liverpool in that I think Liverpool is a unique club and I'm sure it's still the same. Liverpool supporters have an obsession with the manager that I don't think I've seen at any other club. So when the team win, it's about Shankly, Paisley, now it's Klopp. We know they're great players, but the adulation, I think starts with Bill Shankly. And when we, when Liverpool win, it's about the manager and the players. It's not the players then the manager. So the managers at Liverpool, I think have always had a great deal of authority. They've always had the people with them. So it's never a case of a players could get a manager out. And I never saw that at Liverpool. Certainly not when I was there. Roy Hodgson had a tough time at Liverpool. He wasn't the right manager for the club and the club moved him on after about six months.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:10 Why wasn't he the right manager?

Jamie Carragher 1:05:12 He just, he didn't get the club. He didn't say the right things in the press. He was, he was too defensive for Liverpool, for the top... Not just for Liverpool but for any top club. But listen, he'd had success in his career playing that way and he wasn't gonna change when he was in his 60s. So it was just the wrong appointment. It, it didn't work.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:29 I read that Gerrard deliberately missed a penalty to get them fired.

Jamie Carragher 1:05:33 No, that is not true.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:34 Yeah, I wonder... I couldn't believe it was true, but I read... that's what I read.

Jamie Carragher 1:05:37 No, no, no.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:37 And I thought there's no fucking way that Gerrard would miss a penalty. And I actually went upstairs before you came and watched it to see Gerrard's body language and Gerrard did look pissed off (laughs) that he missed it, but...

Jamie Carragher 1:05:46 (laughs) No, no, no. Nothing like that. And I mean, I was, I felt sorry for him, uh, to be honest. But my point in making about the club is, I think it would always be difficult at any stage for a player to have this big ego to sort of try and think he was more powerful than the manager, because I think that's why managers love being manager of Liverpool is because they always get time.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:08 Hmm.

Jamie Carragher 1:06:09 You look at Jurgen Klopp now and there's a spell in the season, the pandemic season where he's done, he's done amazing. He's a godlike figure. But Liverpool actually, what? Lost six games at home against teams at the bottom of the table in a row. And I'm not saying he should have been sacked. What I'm saying is at other clubs that question would have been asked. I don't think there's been one Liverpool supporter, a sane one-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:34 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 1:06:34 ... who would have actually even contemplated that for anything, because that's the type of support they've been brought up on. The manager knows what he's doing.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:43 Well, one of my best friends is a... Maybe my best friend in the world is a Liverpool fan and I said to him this year when Liverpool were struggling, I said, "Why...... what would it take for you to become Klopp out? He wouldn't answer the question. I pressed him, I pressed him for weeks and weeks and weeks. Eventually, I was like, "If R- Liverpool get relegated, are you still Klopp then?" He was like, "Yeah."

Jamie Carragher 1:07:01 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:01 And he just like leaves, leaves the group chat. (laughs)

Jamie Carragher 1:07:04 But-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:04 It's like a religious phenomenon which-

Jamie Carragher 1:07:06 Yeah. I- I just- I- I don't- even with Ferguson at Man U, I know he was- he was umbelie- unbelievable. But I just think when I go to sort of, I think Man United's past their big rival, it would be George Best and Bobby Charlton-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:18 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 1:07:18 ... in that. And then, maybe, you know, Matt Busby comes after them in some ways. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just feels like different at Liverpool. And I think that gives managers huge power. And why I don't think I've ever encountered what I would call player power as such at Liverpool.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:31 Probably why Liverpool have been successful though, because many other clubs have struggled with that, even Manchester United most recently with some of the big personalities we've had, where the manager doesn't have authority. And you just get, you get into the first season and you go, "The manager's gonna be fired because we're not gonna get rid of this world-class player." Um, and then, you- I was, I was speaking to Jesse Lingard about this like... 'Cause you can almost feel it in the air when- when it's coming, you know? You can feel that they've lost the- that phrase, "lost the dressing room", I've always wondered if that was true.

Jamie Carragher 1:08:00 'Cause-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:01 If it's-

Jamie Carragher 1:08:01 Yeah. L-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:01 ... is that a real thing?

Jamie Carragher 1:08:02 Y- yeah. I think so. I mean, I- I f- I probably felt that when Roy Hodgson was there, I don't think many players were enjoying the training or having 'em. And I was almost felt like I was trying to like, "Come on, y- y- y- y- y-," you know, it was like...

Steven Bartlett 1:08:13 Is there private comments though between you and Gerrard where you go, "Oh, this is not gonna-"

Jamie Carragher 1:08:16 Oh, yeah. Of course. Listen, we're all-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:17 Yeah.

Jamie Carragher 1:08:17 We're like fans. It- that would be maybe I was, "Oh, what's he doing here? Why has he done that?" Uh, I- I always remember, and, uh, the only time I've ever did the- did this in my whole career, we lost a home to Blackpool under Roy Hodgson. And I think it was an international break, and I'd stopped playing for England then. And I, gosh, couldn't sleep. And I went in the next morning, and I went straight into his office, and he was actually having a coaches meeting. And I was probably, phlpt, 33, 34, so I was a really experienced pro. And we just had this big discussion with all the coaches, and it wasn't... And probably said things to him that I'd never, you know, he was talking about what he wanted to do for that- And I was saying, "You can't do that. You can't do that." It wasn't me questioning him as a manager. It was almost like I wanted to help him. And not 'cause he, again, he needed help as a manager, he needed help as a Liverpool manager, as such. And, uh, it was almost like, "No, if you- if- if you come out and say that, or if you play this play, everyone's just gonna... Y- y- you can't do that anymore. That's got to stop." I wouldn't name the names I was talking about.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:25 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 1:09:25 So I wouldn't do that. But that wasn't a case of me saying, "You don't know what you're doing. You need to do..." It wasn't in an arrogant way. It was in a way as if like, again, the club was just like, "Oh, where are we going? What are we doing?" It wasn't for sort of, it was more trying to help the situation, really, and trying to help him as a, as a manager. 'Cause I knew it was tough.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:44 Sounds like youse lost the dressing room at that point if you-

Jamie Carragher 1:09:46 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jamie Carragher 1:09:47 Yeah, yeah. No, I said that. You know, a lot of the players, what I'm saying is, he hadn't lost me as such. As I said, no, no manager could lose me or get me-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:55 Mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 1:09:55 ... in some ways in that I- I always felt like I wasn't really playing for them. I mean, I was behind every manager and wanted to take things from every manager.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:03 We hear these stories where the like, the- the- the CEO has had a conversation with a player.

Jamie Carragher 1:10:08 That's a disgrace.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:09 Is that- is that- is that true? Have you ever heard of that happening where the CEO of the club will have a conversation with the player about the manager? "Is the manager right? Do we need to move him on? What's going on in the dressing room?" 'Cause if I was the CEO of a club and I wasn't... I- I'm seeing on the pitch that the club is performing badly, I might go and pull Stevie aside or you aside and go, "How's everything going?"

Jamie Carragher 1:10:30 That happened once to me, and I just absolutely completely said, "This is an absolute joke." That happened in 2007 with American owners, Hicks and Gillette.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:45 Oh gosh, that was a bad period.

Jamie Carragher 1:10:46 Yeah. They'd had a big fallout with Rafa Benitez over transfer tax, whatever it must have been. And they wanted to sack Rafa and bring Jurgen Klinsmann in. And they... Me, me and Steve had the same agent. And rather, it wasn't a case of w- we'd speak to them on the phone. I never really, ever, you know, never spoke to them. No need to. But they said, "Would Stevie and Cara be okay if Rafa Benitez was changed?" And we brought Jurgen, Jurgen Klinsmann in. And I was like, "What?" We'd j- we'd been in a Champions League final about two months before. So we'd been in t- under Rafa Benitez, we'd been in two Champions League finals in three years. But listen, I'm not defending the Americans in any way, but I know Rafa Benitez as a manager is hard work for a CEO and an owner. I know that. He pushes them to the absolute limit where I think in the end they think, "Oh, he's..." You know, the performance, high maintenance type of thing. He's like that as a manager. But it was like, "What? Absolutely not." I mean, why are you even spe- no. It's the... I c- I couldn't believe the question was even asked. Number one, because of how well we'd done as a team. But also number two, why are you asking me? It's just like-

Steven Bartlett 1:11:51 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Jamie Carragher 1:11:52 No. Don't ever almost put me in that position or situation.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:55 Where you can fire the manager.

Jamie Carragher 1:11:56 Yeah. But if that did happen at that time, you can imagine it happened at other clubs, certainly Chelsea, who were just a revolving door.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:04 And Rafa was eventually fired by them, wasn't he? I believe.

Jamie Carragher 1:12:08 Yeah, but like three years later-

Steven Bartlett 1:12:09 Okay.

Jamie Carragher 1:12:09 ... or something like that. That was like, that was when it was at its best with Rafa.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:12 Right.

Jamie Carragher 1:12:12 It wasn't a footballing decision.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:13 'Cause-

Jamie Carragher 1:12:14 That was a personal decision.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:15 So you, so you, y- I'm guessing you didn't go and tell Rafa that conversation had happened?

Jamie Carragher 1:12:19 No. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:12:19 Okay. (laughs)

Jamie Carragher 1:12:21 No.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:21 Eventually you retire, and interestingly, which kind of bucks the trend again, you- you said you were happy that your career was done.

Jamie Carragher 1:12:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:29 Why?

Jamie Carragher 1:12:30 The rollercoaster of emotions. It was... Yeah, I just, I'd had enough of it, you know, the high- the highs and lows. And the high was never as high as the low was low, if you like. So no, I-