The Diary of a CEOJim Chapman: Overcoming Failure Anxiety, Finding Love & Life-Changing Therapy | E78
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,008 words- 0:00 – 2:11
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's a lot of rumors surrounding Jim, and today, he addresses some of them for good.
- JCJim Chapman
My dad, he was out of my life from fairly young. He was arrested, he was in prison for a while. He was definitely sociopathic. I wonder what man I would be if he had stuck around. Oh, I've lost count the amount of times I've been called a cheater. Me and Tanya broke up just over two years ago, me and Sarah got together, as far as the world is concerned, a few months later. But obviously, that wasn't it, because the world only found out w- me and Tanya broke up when we decided to tell them. 'Cause I lost my shit the other day on, on social media. So I can take hate, I've got a thick skin. It doesn't, it bounces straight off, I don't care. This is my job. It's not a personal reflection on me. But when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiance the names they called her and saying that my baby should be miscarried, that's where I draw the line.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(Intro music playing) Some people come on this podcast and they're cagey. Sometimes they even try and bend the truth, protect their ego. Dare I say it, sometimes they even lie. Not my next guest. Completely, utterly, brutally honest. Raw, unfiltered and vulnerable. He's a British celebrity with six, or seven, or eight million followers. But you don't know Jim. You don't know Jim Chapman. Almost nobody does. Today, we're talking about success, the chronic curse of overthinking. We're talking about love, breakups, rumors, both of the similarities in our mindsets. We're talking about how you need to be a contradiction in various parts of your life if you're going to be happy, something I didn't realize until today, until this conversation. And we're talking about child abuse. Child abuse to an extent that most of us could, and should hopefully, never be able to imagine. We're talking about paralyzing anxiety, social media, its upsides and downsides, and what all of this life stuff is fundamentally about. Unavoidably, there's a lot of rumors surrounding Jim, and today, he addresses some of them for good. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- 2:11 – 12:55
Experiences from your childhood that shaped who you are today
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jim, I always f- think the most important place to start when I have these conversations is getting to know the experiences that made you who you are today-
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because for me, that creates the context for everything we're about to discuss.
- JCJim Chapman
Uh-huh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And a lot of the time, people don't really know those things. Um, so tell me about some of the experiences, when you were younger, when you were in school, um, that you think have contributed to the man you are today.
- JCJim Chapman
Okay. Um, I guess, and God, it's instantly gonna sound like a sob story, and it absolutely is not, this is a positive thing. I guess, the first thing this brings to mind is my dad. So, uh, my dad was... He did some bad things. Like, he, he abused my mum, um, from of- even before I was born. I got two older sisters who, um, you know, dealt with it as well. I don't think he ever turned a hand to them, but he verbally was very... I mean, even I remember that, and I was super young. I remember him being very, very hurtful and very unkind, and just b- bullying to, to my sisters. Um, I think he always wanted boys, so my brother and I were kind of like... I've got a twin, so we were like the, the prodigal children, I suppose. Um, i- uh, I didn't know this, 'cause obviously I was born into it, but it's not... It wasn't until I got a little older and I'd have like sleepovers at friends' houses, or I would just be in the presence of other people and their parents, and I'd be like, "Wait, your house isn't terrifying?" (laughs) "That's, that's, uh... This is great." You know? And I think I got... As I got slightly older, I realized that things weren't quite right, and it was one day, uh, my brother and I were in the room next door where we slept, my, my parents. And we walked in, and my dad was like on top of her, just beating the shit out of her, basically. And my brother and I, we were only tiny, we must've been like five or six, tried to pull him off, but obviously he was huge, so just pinged us away. And it was a, a wild night, you know, and the police came, took him away, um, et cetera, et cetera, just kind of... And he... I didn't know at the time, but he had been beating my mum and abusing her for years, but of course she was trapped. Now, my mum is a saint, but also, she doesn't tolerate fools. She's not... I think the thing about domestic abuse is a lot of people just go, "Oh, just get out of there. Just get out of there." It's not, it's not as simple as that. She had her kids to think of. I remember being in the car with my dad, and he would threaten to just crash the car and kill us all. He drove like a maniac, he was drunk quite a lot. My mum couldn't just leave with four children, because he found us... We, we, we tried to leave and he found us, you know? So I think, um, that, he's very much a cautionary tale for me. Um, he was out of my life from fairly young, but never fully out, because he, you know, he was taken away by the police, he was arrested, he was in prison for a while. But despite the fact that we had like a court order that he couldn't come near, he still came near all the time. At one point, he... Kidnapped is a very strong word, but at one point he took me, um, just kind of came to the window. And I was his son, you know, he was my dad, so I worshiped him, and I still didn't fully understand, so I remember going to the window and saying, "Mum's calling the police, you have to go." And he just sort of went, "Okay," and just took me with him and drove... We were in a bloody police chase, drove like super fast, and the police had to kind of, you know, stop him, pull him over. Um, it was, you know, it's, it's a... It was a very unsettling time for a child, but because of that, he was removed, and I spent most of my childhood being brought up by my mum and my big sisters. So I wanted for nothing, um, I was very well loved, very well protected, super well looked after. And I think actually, I, I often wonder, and I was having this chat with Sarah the other day, 'cause obviously we've got a child on the way, uh, and I was thinking, "I wonder what man I would be if he had stuck around, or if, or if we couldn't get away from him, or whatever it would've been." Um, and, you know, whether he wanted to or not, he taught me a lot of lessons, um, but I think mostly-... cautionary lessons because my family are bloody great. You know, there's, uh, I've got two big sisters. I've, I've got a mom, I've got a twin brother, and I would choose no one else on the planet to take those roles. If I had the choice, they would be the people I'd choose, 100%. Um, and he missed out on that because he was unwell, I would say. Um, he had MS. And I always remember him y- being a victim of it in a way. Like, my sister inherited from- it from him. And she's so positive with it. Like, she's not a victim. She doesn't let it beat her. She has times when she's tired. It gets on top of her, she has a little sob, she goes to bed. She recognizes the signs though, and she goes, "Right, okay, it's getting on top of me. I need to rest for a while." I remember my dad just being, like, a victim of it and being like, "Oh, it ruined my life. It did this." He used to play football, uh, from what I understand, a fairly high-ish level, like kind of ... H- he played for West Ham, not in the A-team, but something. And he was like, "Oh, the MS ruined it for me," which I'm sure it did, you know. There's no question with that. But y- life deals you cards, and you react, you behave in a way that y- that you see fit. Um, and he w- let the cards life dealt him, uh, ruin everything, I think. And I think because of that, he was angry. Um, I also, I mean, and I s- I don't say this lightly, but I think he was definitely sociopathic. He manipulated everybody. And a lot o- uh, a lot of it, my mom didn't even know about until we were clear from him, and then people started asking her for money because, you know, he owed it to them. I mean, he, he went to prison for, like, armed robbery or something. Like, he was d- just, you know, he did some really bad things. Um, so I think for me, that's kind of the first thing my mind goes to when someone asks me about kind of, um, childhood, um, formulation of me. But I don't necessarily think of it as a negative thing, 'cause actually, I think that because he was removed from my life by my protectors, by my mom, my big sisters, I had a wonderful childhood, you know. We didn't have any... When he was around, there was more money, because I think he stole a lot of money, and because he, he took it... You know, there was two parents earning, but also, he, he earned it by sort of nefarious means. Suddenly, we had no money, um, and my nan had to, like, buy the house that we lived in, and we stayed at my mom's best friend's for, like, a year or so because she took us in 'cause then we c- couldn't afford anywhere else. But I was safe, and I was happy, and I was like... My mom had more capacity to be a better mom because she wasn't constantly running for the hills, you know. So actually, I think that it's a really positive thing, um, that happened because imagine if he was still around. Imagine if he was still my father figure now. At 33, I'd be a mess, for one thing, I think, but I'd also be... I wonder if I'd be a, uh, not a nice man, and actually, I pride myself on being decent and kind. Um, and he missed out on that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I read a little bit about this story as I was doing some research on your book and things like that.
- JCJim Chapman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And one of the, the most startling parts of all of this is how much empathy, dare I say, you appear to have for this man, which I think people would find surprising. I think you said, "I don't blame him for how things happened."
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah, I don't. I, I, I actually, I, I think of myself as quite an empathetic person. Um, I rarely have arguments with people. Um, I do with Sarah, obviously, 'cause we live under the same roof-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
... um, and like, we have disagreements, but-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your fiancee. (laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
Yes, my fiancee, yeah. Um, although not at the moment 'cause she's pregnant, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
... she can do no wrong. Um, but I, I do have, uh, I tend not to have, like, extra personal drama because I a- I do consider how it would be from someone else's perspective, and I appreciate that yes, okay, I could have my say because I feel slighted about a thing, and I could say, "Well, you did this, and it made me feel that." But that's my feelings on an action that they, um, th- and they will have equal and opposite feelings on the way I behaved ac- because of their actions. Nobody, I don't, I believe nobody will go out of their way just to be a prick, you know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
They've always got their thoughts and feelings and their motivations, and I don't think anyone's doing it like, "Oh, that'll piss Jim off. I'll do that."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- JCJim Chapman
You know what I mean? That they're, they're living their life. We all live in our bubble. My, uh, my therapist calls it the lifeboat. We all live in our lifeboat, right? Um, but we're all on the same ocean, so depending on how good your lifeboat is, you will weather the storm or not, right? There's a storm on the ocean. We're all in it, especially at the moment. There's a pandemic, right? We're all in a pandemic together, but it depends on the boat you're sailing on. Um, and there are times when boats kind of bump into each other or someone's in a dinghy, and you need to sort of tie them to yours for a while and help them get through things or whatever. Um, but I really don't feel like anybody is purposely, tch, um, an ass. They might be manipulative. They might see a way that they can behave that will, um, better them th- in a, in a situation where they go, "Okay, I'll come off better with that," and it might, it might do him no favors, but you know, they're not doing it for that reason. They're doing it for that reason. They're doing it because they want to, um, have a better situation for them, not just to piss me off. So I tend not to have arguments. I will say to someone, "That's not cool. Can you see that from my perspective?" Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
And do you, and, and do you think, so when you think about y- the situation with your dad, it seems like from, that you, you avoid attributing blame to him, and then th- so I, I'm, I'm, I'm questioning myself. I'm saying i- is that because you understand the reasons why he was the way he is, or-
- JCJim Chapman
Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you have empathy for...
- JCJim Chapman
I have, yeah, I just, I think I just have empathy for, for people. I don't... I think there's definitely blame. I think we all, we all have to own our own actions.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
Um, but I think there are also, there are reasons behind actions. I don't think it's ever as simple as he hit my mom just because he's aggressive. I think you have to dig deeper. Like, my, my, my granddad was...... so his dad, not okay. I remember being, I remember going to his house and he'd be like, watching, not porn, but like softcore in front of us, you know, as just, he was just, uh, I don't know, I don't know if he was just a bit like, um, senile at that point or if, or, or what, but, you know, it's not all right to do that with young kids around. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you see these generational cycles, right? Yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
100%, yeah. And I'm very proud and very happy to have broken that cycle because, you know, my, I don't, I don't know what his dad was like, but my granddad taught my dad his behavior. Not all of it, 'cause I actually, I actually do think there was, um, I actually do believe my dad had sociopathic
- 12:55 – 17:25
unpleasant traits from parents
- JCJim Chapman
tendencies, which isn't necessarily a taught thing, it's more like a brain function thing, you know. Um, but I think there was definitely something there, and it didn't help having his dad, uh, teach, instill in him certain beliefs and patterns or whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. Starting from the minute the lockdown is lifted, we're gonna start bringing in some of our subscribers to watch how this podcast is produced behind the scenes. Means you get to meet the guests, meet myself, and see how we put all of this together. If you want that to be you, all you've got to do, hit the subscribe button. My mum is a very, a loud person.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's a huge understatement. Like, loves to scream in people's faces, very short temper. My dad is a certain way. And as I've got older and older, I've got more conscious that at times I feel like myself becoming a little bit like them in certain moments.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it scares me sometimes, I think. And I think, well, genetically, of course, I'm half of each of them.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, um, have you ever, has it ever concerned you in the same way that you might have picked up some of the unpleasant traits of either of your parents?
- JCJim Chapman
Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Has that crossed your mind?
- JCJim Chapman
I'm turning into my mum, for sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really? That's good to know.
- JCJim Chapman
My mum, my mum has unpleasant traits only in as far as she... For example, when I moved house, wouldn't stop going on about parking.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
Like that sort of thing. "Oh, you better get parking." "Mom, I live in London. You don't get off-street parking. I've got a parking permit. I park around the corner. That's my life." And she's like, "Oh, well, you, you need to get a driveway." I'm like, "No, I don't." Like, that's the sort of thing, she won't let it drop. She's got a fact in her mind about, um, Trump, for example, and she goes, "Oh, Trump's bad, he did this thing." I'm like, "Yeah, but what about all the other things he did?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
You know, so she's, um... That's her kind of annoying trait. And if that's the worst I get, then I'm fine with that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Nice.
- JCJim Chapman
Um, as far as my dad, I don't think... I mean, yeah, like I say, he's half me or I'm half him, I suppose. Um, but I think that... The thing is, well, my, my degree is in psychology, right? So I know a little bit about it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Nice.
- JCJim Chapman
And I'm always quite conscious, like I know, for example, there are certain genes that will only get triggered under certain environments.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
So yes, all right, I might well have his gene for something, but if I don't, if I'm not in a environment where it's had to, uh, where it, it, it would have expressed itself, then I might never. And I also think that there is an element of, um, I guess, consciousness that can override that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Self-awareness.
- JCJim Chapman
Like, yeah, self-awareness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And education, 'cause you're in therapy, psychology, yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
Totally, yeah, yeah. I'm very, um, I work on, and I s- I hate this, I hate saying this 'cause it sounds like really wanky, but I work on bettering myself, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
I, I, I know my flaws. I work too much. Like, I forget to bring my head up and I neglect Sarah sometimes because I'm too busy typing away or I'm too busy in my own little world stressing about whatever I'm stressing about, which doesn't need to happen, but it does, and I, I'm aware of that, and I, that's the sort of thing I work on. But I've never been aggressive, never been violent. Um, I, uh, weirdly, I do boxing quite a lot.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- 17:25 – 20:21
What kind of dad do you want to be?
- JCJim Chapman
but he used to get like, um, a little bit of a figure every time, and he'd make the figure-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, yeah, those ones.
- JCJim Chapman
And it was like something to do with bugs, and then we made a big spider.
- SBSteven Bartlett
12 quid per magazine. (laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
Basically, yeah. Really, really overpriced.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
But I remember him, um, he would read it with me from cover to cover, and we'd put the bug together. Now, there would end up being six issues, um, that we didn't get done, and we'd have to do them in one go because he wasn't around, because he was gone doing whatever he was doing, and, um, he would let me down a lot. But I remember doing them, and I remember loving that time with him. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
What kind of dad do you want to become? Because you've got a kid on the way now.
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Congrats again.
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
Thanks. Um, ah, it's really hard to say this because I know that every first-time prospective parent goes, "Oh, I'm gonna be the best dad." And actually, you know, invariably, we'll all fuck up at some point, right? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah, it is life.
- JCJim Chapman
It's gonna happen. Um, I just, I think for me-If I can have a child, and if I can instill in them the waste of time in anxiety, like, they're just the- the- just the sheer nonsense of it. Like, I w- I really want them to understand that worrying does nothing. You know? Yes, all right, we can be stressed about things. There are times when life is hard and things- there's challenges to overcome, but you overcome those challenges when they present themselves. There's no... My therapist once said to me, "When you worry, you rob yourself twice," right? Because the first time round, you're overwhelmingly thinking about nothing but a potential problem, which may never rear its head. If it doesn't rear its head, then you've wasted time worrying about it. If it does rear its head, then you're forced into action because you can't stay in that situation. So, why stress about something that's never gonna happen or, you know, something that you will solve if it does happen? So, I really want my child to understand, just be content, I think, um, and to know that both me and Sarah, and all of our family, so my- my siblings, my mum, Sarah's siblings and her parents will always be there to help. You know? And I think that if I can do that, then I'll have done a good job. Um, I want to be patient. It's in my nature, I'm a very patient person. Um, but I also know that I'll be tested. So, when I do snap, I snap quite- quite loudly. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
So, I want to be calm, I want to be patient, I want to be soft and considerate, um, and again, empathetic.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
Because the thing about kids is I- I really appreciate is they get frustrated because they're obviously told what to do by their parents. They can't necessarily verbalize or especially don't have the communication ability to say, "No, that's not what I want." You know? And they have to appreciate that obviously what I want overrules it for the most part because safety or whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- JCJim Chapman
But I think they also need to appreciate that they'll be frustrated because they can't communicate effectively why they feel
- 20:21 – 24:58
Failure anxiety
- JCJim Chapman
pissed off because I've said no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
Um, and that will often come out in, like, tantrums or whatever, so.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah. And they won't understand Daddy's world and why-
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... when they're trying to get your attention, they don't know you're on a Zoom call f- pitching something, for example.
- JCJim Chapman
For sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They're just like, "Daddy won't play with me," you know what I mean?
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So.
- JCJim Chapman
Totally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, it's interesting.
- JCJim Chapman
I also want to make sure I'm around enough. My job totally allows that. Like, I have time, I can work as little or as much as I want. That's- that's the beauty of my job. Obviously, I work less, I earn less.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
But, you know, I can make those sacrifices. I don't at the moment. That's my problem. I work constantly because I like what I do and because of the constant mi- It's anxiety. I'm constantly worried about if I take my foot off the gas, what happens next?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I find that fascinating, but I picked up on that before we started recording.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because every time we talked about your screenplays or other things you're working on, you would then end the sentence with, "But I might lose it all."
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I- I don't resonate. Like, I- that I found that interesting because it's not how I end my sentences.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it was- it was like you would tell me something, and then you would also then c- almost caveat it at the end with, "There is a chance I might not lo- I might not get it or I might lose it all."
- JCJim Chapman
Right. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I- I- I find it particular 'cause I don't think in that way.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, where does that come from in you, this... ?
- JCJim Chapman
My mum.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- JCJim Chapman
Uh, 100%. Again, she's wonderful. She has, like a- like an ethos. It's not a saying, but it's an ethos, which is like, "A day doing nothing is a day wasted."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 24:58 – 28:56
Therapy
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
That's kind of it, right? What else is there? The rest of it is just made up-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Toilets. (laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
Right. (laughs) The re- the rest of it is just made up shit that we've given ourselves to do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Society has told us that in order to be a complete person-
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... we need to-
- JCJim Chapman
And it's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... climb.
- JCJim Chapman
Right, totally, and it's bloody stressful. It's, it's, it's, it's debilitating sometimes, so when I have that turned up too high, I end up doing nothing, but I worry myself, and Sarah's like, "Where have you gone?" Like, I'll just disappear and I don't talk, I don't, like ... And I haven't been like this for a while, because I'm pretty good at recognizing the signs and I know to take my foot off the gas a bit because of, you know, all the therapy I've had. But yeah, it's, it's the bloody worst.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What has helped you?
- JCJim Chapman
Um, therapy. Yeah. Uh, uh, it's absolutely that. Being aware of it is a, is a point, and I always say this, 'cause I've actually ... A couple of my best mates have... I don't know a guy that's my age that doesn't need it, by the way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
Um, so a couple of my, of my best mates, I've put them in touch with therapists or sort of said something, you know, "I think you should see someone." And actually, we're really open and honest with each other. We're constantly looking out. If one of us is quiet on the group chat, we'll go, "Dude, are you all right? You've been a bit quiet." Um, I said to him at the time, I was like, "There's a really tough point with therapy where you start seeing someone, and at first, you're really resistant." You just go, "No, I'm fine. What are you talking about?" But when they point things out to you, you're like, "Shit, I'm not fine."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
But you're aware of doing it, but you have no tools in place of how to stop doing it s- or how to at least challenge it, so you're just punishing yourself for doing it. Like, I remember going through that stage a- for a long time, going, "I hate that I'm failing. I hate that I'm still stressing out about being ... like, working constantly or not working constantly," or whatever it is. "I hate that I'm doing it to myself, but I can't stop." And you feel a bit like a junkie, you know, in a way that you're like, you know it's wrong, you know you shouldn't be doing it, but you can't, you can't not. Um, and it actually, it takes a while to learn the techniques, you know. Mine is as simple as it's, it's, it's painful, but I have to go, "Right, stop. Just don't do it. Take a, take a step away from your laptop, step away from your camera, do what, whatever it is you're doing, have five minutes. If you feel better after five minutes, go back to it. If not, then take the rest of the day off." Um, and that's what I have to do. I, I need to be s- ... Sarah needs to keep me in check quite a lot, because if I ... sometimes it sneaks up on me, and I'm kind of, like, at stage four before I even realizes it, and I'm like, "Shit, I'm in too deep." Um, so she's often like, "Dude, come back." Um, and that's really helpful. It's hard though, because you don't wanna be told by someone that you're not performing the way you should. You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Especially something that matters, right? And you-
- JCJim Chapman
Right, totally, especially when it's your, already your weakness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
Um, but you need to be ... Like, I actually really like criticism, so it's good for me. Like if, uh, you know, if I send someone some work or something and they go, "Ooh, okay," as long as it's constructive. You know, they go, "Oh, okay, I see what you're doing here, don't like that, that, that's not great." I thrive on that, because I'm, I'm back in there and I'm, you know. So, I think having other, third parties be like, "Mm-mm, you're not doing right, right now." Um, and that's something that I really want to be totally aware of when it comes to my child, 'cause I don't wanna be an absent father. I don't wanna be a dad that's always going, "No, no, no, no, no, I'm just on my lap, so I'll come back to you in five minutes." I, I want to be able to ... Obviously, I have to work, you know, we all have a living, but I want to be able to have my kid with me and be present, you know, and not them think that they're sort of auxiliary or like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
... an afterthought or just an addition. I want them to know that they are the center of my universe, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I say this every week, but I'm gonna say it again. Um, it is a tremendous pleasure to have a podcast sponsor that A, you've used for maybe three years. People ask me this as well, they say, "How many Huels do you drink a day?" The answer is probably about two, sometimes two and a half. Um, but a podcast sponsor that you genuinely believe can help people change their life for the better. Um, watching the team at Huel argue with each other and be so uncompromising about the ingredients that go into this bottle or
- 28:56 – 47:15
Being an influencer/YouTuber
- SBSteven Bartlett
the bags or the bars or the hot and savory has only strengthened my evangelism for this brand. Watching the founder, Julian, and the CEO, James, insist that only the best ingredients go in here and be so scientifically precise about what goes in this bottle and in the bars and in the bags has only made me love this more, because I know they've got my back. And I wish all of you could be in those boardrooms that I've been in and watch them fight for your and my health, um, via this product. So professionally-
- JCJim Chapman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... we talked a little bit about your work there. One of the things that, uh, that you've said is you don't like being called like an influencer, like a YouTuber.
- JCJim Chapman
Uh, I think it's really reductive.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
Um, and I think that actually, if you look at, you know, if you just weigh up the quantity of work I do, it's only about, um, less than 50, I'd say. Um, unfortunately, I don't get paid for the other stuff yet. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) That's how it starts.
- JCJim Chapman
You know? So yeah, I mean the-
- SBSteven Bartlett
You didn't get paid for YouTube at the start, right?
- JCJim Chapman
Absolutely, yeah, totally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right?
- JCJim Chapman
Um, but I do lots of other stuff. I appreciate that I communicate that other stuff online via my social media. I just think that influencer is ... for one thing, it's an ugly word, 'cause it implies that you are, um, utilizing influence over someone, whereas actually, I just share the stuff I like. Even if it's an ad, even if it's, if it's, um, I'm working with a brand, I'm not gonna work with a brand that I don't wanna talk about, right? So it's ... I'm talking about things that I'm actually enjoying or passionate about or whatever it may be, and I don't see that as exerting influence. I see that as sharing ...... joy, or even if it's just sharing good tips, or whatever it may be. I see that as a, as a very different thing. And I, I also have a thing, and I've, I've mentioned this a few times, is there was a void in, um, social media where myself and my contemporaries, who all started around the same time, did it for fun, did it for love, did it for adventure. We had no idea it was gonna go anywhere, and it, when it started to, we were like, "Oh my God." And genuinely, I look back at it now with such nostalgia. I don't miss it, but I love that I was part of it, you know, 'cause it was such a cool journey to-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Moment in history as well.
- JCJim Chapman
It ... Well, yeah, totally, absolutely was.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know what I mean?
- JCJim Chapman
You know, and we sold out these venues and we were, you know, we had screaming fans. It felt like being in a small version of One Direction, you know. Um, it was wild and just so much fun.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you miss that?
- JCJim Chapman
No. I loved it at the time when I was in my early 20s.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Every young person, and I saw some of those clips of your meetups in like parks and stuff.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I've never seen a line that long in my lifetime.
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah, it was wild.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But like (laughs) like 1,000 meters, I don't even know how many meters that is, of people-
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... four, like four deep in like this massive line, just screaming and crying at times.
- JCJim Chapman
It's really hard to put into words. I tried explaining it to Sarah when we first met because obviously she-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Show some of them videos.
- JCJim Chapman
... she doesn't know the rules.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah, it's really hard, and then we get, if I get stopped on the street now by someone-
- 47:15 – 49:26
Does hard work matter?
- JCJim Chapman
... play to their strengths. My strength is not that. So, but I often get called, like, an entrepreneur or something. I'm like, "Pfft, yeah, all right."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
I just, I, yeah, just been, it's, it's been luck and timing and really bloody hard work. Um, and the hard work I can, I g- I'm in control of. The luck and the timing, I'm not. Um, and the other people around me are in charge of sort of, uh, I guess, bringing, looking after, like, the financial side of it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The admin stuff.
- JCJim Chapman
You know? It's the admin stuff that I don't-
- SBSteven Bartlett
You hate (laughs) .
- JCJim Chapman
I hate.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah (laughs) .
- JCJim Chapman
With a fiery passion. Yeah, hate it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You said just a couple of moments ago, the, the proponents that have made you successful, you said, like, you know, luck, hard work, et cetera, et cetera. Do you think you could have achieved what you've achieved over the last 10 years without hard work?
- JCJim Chapman
No. Absolutely not.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How would you square that with the culture we live in today that is almost viewing hard work as a bit of a toxic thing? I've almost got to the point, I'll never get there because I don't care-
- JCJim Chapman
Go on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that much, but I've almost got to the point ... And I, just, just to say again, I will never get there, right? Because-
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I'm not gonna lie to people. Where I sometimes feel bad being honest that I wouldn't be here without hard work.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm not telling you to burn out, right? But I don't know how, if I hadn't have sacrificed in the way that I did, I would've been ... Of course, that's my experience. I've not lived another life.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I can only tell you what I've done.
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah. I think it's really important. It's like work hard, play hard, right? It's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
... really important. I, uh, I, I, I posted this on, on my Instagram Stories the other day. It's everybody does this, like ... You're right, there is a lot of people who are sort of, um, uh, pooh-poohing working hard.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
Don't work too hard. And there's also people who, like, on my Instagram, it comes up all the time, "Hey, I run three businesses and I do this."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
"And I'm only 12 years old," and like ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, but that guy's trying to sell you a course.
- JCJim Chapman
Oh, for sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That is his business.
- 49:26 – 54:53
Being in the moment
- JCJim Chapman
hard and work with passion, but also stop when you need to stop. Take your time off, enjoy your evenings. Or, you know, again, I've got a job which allows me to work as much or as little as I please. I wish I did, like, a four-day week. I would very much like to do that. So I have a three-day weekend, or I take a day off in the middle of the week. I've got the means to do so, just haven't got the brain to do so. You know? Um, and I think that that's a really important distinction. Otherwise, you work all your bloody life and suddenly you're 60, and you've gone, "Oh my God, I haven't, like, actually enjoyed my experiences." Um, I haven't actually ... You know, I've got to do some really bloody incredible experiences. And sometimes I'm too busy stressing about what's next in my diary, or finishing a thing, meeting a deadline, or even stressing about the key messages I've got to get across when I'm on that adventure, that I forget to enjoy the adventure. And it's the biggest sort of, um, waste of time that my job has within it. You know? Like, I remember being in a, on a helicopter, and this wasn't me actually, this was, this was somebody else who, who I recognized in. I was taken away, um, to New York. I was going on a helicopter around Manhattan, and it was like, you know, "What a cool experience. You know, people don't get to do that very often." Um, and this guy was sat next to me in the middle, and he couldn't take his picture because he had to lean over me. And I said, "Oh, I'll swap seats with you." The pilot came over the, um, you know, the, the whatever it said, and said, um, "Oh, don't swap seats 'cause you'll unbalance the helicopter." The guy was so pissed off. He said, "No, no, no, I wanna swap." I'm like, "Well, no, 'cause you'll kill us now, so-" (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. Yeah. (laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
"... it's a bit different. I offered you my seat when I didn't think we were gonna die-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
"... um, for doing it." And he sulked so much because he couldn't get the photo he wanted. And I'm like, that, for me, really s- really kind of is the epitome of not enjoying the moment.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- JCJim Chapman
Like, just enjoy the bloody helicopter ride around Manhattan, you idiot. Um ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
But that's probably a byproduct of social media or something, because-
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you know, the, part of the value of that was, for him, clearly was being able to tell the world he did it versus-
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... being in the moment, and-
- JCJim Chapman
For sure. For sure. And that ... And unfortunately, that is the job. We have to tell the world we've done something. Otherwise, you know, it, it hasn't happened, right? And, and there's no point in taking you- me on that really cool experience, 'cause if I haven't told anyone about it ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- JCJim Chapman
You know? So that ... There, there's definitely a, uh, a dichotomy there, in that you need to prove that you've done it and you need to show your enjoyment, um, but you need to also not let that take you out of the moment. And that's a fine line.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things I've been thinking a lot about lately, which links c- to that completely, is, uh, 'cause, uh, uh, I sit here with people all the time, and I- and one of the things I keep noticing is that in order for them to actually be happy, they have to try and be a contradiction or two completely different people in separate areas of their life.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And a lot of the, the lack of success they have, either in their work or relationships or whatever, or in their personal lives, comes from them not being able to switch off from being, from going, like, being super successful entrepreneur, and then when they get home, being loving, patient-
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you know? And then in the, in the example we've just been talking about there, I would assume happiness would come from being able to do your job and take the photo, but then have experiences where you just don't give a fuck if the world is watching.
- JCJim Chapman
That's entirely it. Like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how d'you ... And that's not easy.
- JCJim Chapman
No, it's not easy. I, um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And dare I say, the thing that put you on the helicopter might have been the inability to switch off in some degree-
- JCJim Chapman
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because of the hard work. Hard work. You're on a helicopter.
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah. I was gonna say, I haven't, I haven't got to where I am by switching off whenever I choose to. You know what I mean? I've got here because I work harder than I should. Um, and that's, that's a massive sacrifice, 'cause I've missed out on moments. I've missed out on, um, you know, like, there are times where I should just be more present with Sarah, but I'm too busy working, you know? I miss out on things. But I get to go on a helicopter. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
But I, you know, I ... More than that, I get to live a really cool existence. Like, I love my job. So it's, it's really difficult. Like, my, the way I kind of cross that T, dot that I, I suppose, is that I will very often much rather pay for a holiday and have a actual holiday-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- 54:53 – 56:35
Why are you good at writing about love?
- SBSteven Bartlett
when the next podcast comes out. But we've had a bit of a resource capacity, 'cause Jack, who pro- produces all of this and edits all of this, only has so much time. And these podcasts are coming in thick and fast. So we turned to Fiverr to help us extend our capacity, and we hired a video editor on Fiverr who's now producing all of our video clips for this podcast. So now, in a very, very, very cost-effective way, we've been able to promote the podcast every single day from Monday till Sunday-
- JCJim Chapman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That is what Fiverr's all about, extending your team, giving you capabilities you might not have had, and doing it in a very cost-effective way. (page turns) One of the other really s- interesting things you said as we were talking, maybe before we started filming, was you were talking about the things that you're good at writing about-
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... with your screenplays, and one of the things you said was love.
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I thought to myself, "I wonder why he's good at writing about love?"
- JCJim Chapman
Um, I don't know, actually. I, I, I know my, my strengths when it comes to writing, and it's one of those things where to begin with, we've all got imposter syndrome, right? Constantly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
I've still got it 10 years on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
But I know I'm good at that. Um, I know I can send a script somewhere. They might not like it, it might not be the thing for them, I mean, I get told no quite a lot, but invariably they say, "Do you know what? Great script. You've done a really good job there." Um, so I, I'm confident in my ability there, and I know my strengths are dialogue, um, 'cause I write how people talk but also get the point across. Like, I can't... I'm the worst person to watch a film with, 'cause if I'm watching something, I'm like, "People don't talk like that!"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah. (laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
"What is going..." You know. Um, but also love. I, I just think I've got... I, I don't know. I think I'm a bit of an old romantic, and it comes down... I, I think it really, for me, comes down to how you feel love. You know? If you can feel love and you can put pen to paper, you can write love. Um, and I, I, I pride myself on
- 56:35 – 1:01:07
My Old public relationship - allegations
- JCJim Chapman
trusting and loving, like, t- to... I'm not a jealous person. I'm not. Um, I'm never gonna micromanage a relationship or anything like that. If I love someone, I trust them implicitly. They can do as they wish. They can go out with the boys, whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
I'm never gonna go, "Oh, who did you meet and what happened?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JCJim Chapman
I'm never gonna, like, check their phone.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- JCJim Chapman
You know? I'm never gonna do any of that, because if I love someone, I'm all in, um, and that, for me, is really important. If you get your fingers burnt, then all right, then you, then that's... They get one chance, you know? Um, and that's, that's my life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You had a very public relationship.
- JCJim Chapman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, one that was shared on YouTube for many, many years.
- JCJim Chapman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You ended up marrying said person, and, um, and then that r- relationship ended.
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, difficult, I imagine, to, to have that experience in public, right?
- JCJim Chapman
Next to impossible, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- JCJim Chapman
Like, it's, uh... You know, we were together for 12 years, and most of that time was wonderful, you know? It was really great. Like I say, we conquered the world together.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
We were, we were both part of that first breed of influencers, like social media people, and we had a wicked time, and then we grew up together. It was as simple as growing up in slightly different directions, you know? Um, and at some point, you know, the, the-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, are you gonna do the, the hand thing?
- JCJim Chapman
... further you go on-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
... like that, the wider the gap gets.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I literally just did this for the first time last week on this podcast.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was like, "I'm almost starting to see relationships like two parallel lines."
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and if you imagine the parallel lines have just a 1% angle either way-
- JCJim Chapman
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... right, they're either gonna stay parallel-
- 1:01:07 – 1:08:36
Horrible comments
- JCJim Chapman
I don't know, like, as far as the world is concerned, a few months later-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
... but actually that wasn't it, because the world only found out, me and Tanya broke up when we decided to tell them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJim Chapman
And we only decided to tell them when we did because the press found out, so actually it was much earlier than anyone realizes, 'cause we were trying to w- get our heads around it and work out...... how to do it with minimal, um, sort of like minimal backlash, minimal-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Negative energy.
- JCJim Chapman
... negative energy, right? Because we didn't have any towards each other at all. Um, but when it comes to, when it comes to me being called a cheater or whatever, whatever, it's fine, it bounces back off and I, I hold my head high. Everybody who I know and care about and respect and love knows what really happened, and that's what really matters to me. I don't care. But when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiance the names they called her and saying that my baby should be miscarried, that's where I draw the line.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The person that sent that message-
- JCJim Chapman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you know that they, they probably wanted that reaction.
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah, I do. Um, I, one of the best pieces of advice I was, I was ever given was, "Don't play around in the mud with the pigs, 'cause you'll both get dirty, but the pigs will love it, right?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
So I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) I love that.
- JCJim Chapman
... live by a motto of "Never explain, never complain." I don't... I own my decisions, like I own my life. I'm an adult. I don't have to explain myself to anyone, should I not wish to. Right? Simple. Um, I am confident in my ability and my decisions that I'm like, "This is the path I'm choosing, and you can like it or lump it," basically. Um, but I felt like making an example, and I didn't out anyone, I didn't say any names, I didn't, you know, share any, um, usernames, but I felt like making an example of that person, uh, especially with it being so out of character for me to do so, would have had overall a positive consequence for the people who were thinking it, but weren't writing it, or the people that were thinking of writing it. And actually, do you know what? Sarah's getting much less of it now. I'm getting much less-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- JCJim Chapman
... of it now. Um, so I think in a way it was almost like cost-benefit analysis-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JCJim Chapman
... (laughs) in a way, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I, I weigh these things up and I think, there's always gonna... And I, I've been thinking a lot lately because of, um, there was a couple of... My friend is the global head of social media at Manchester United-
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and there's a lot of Black players.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And so when the team loses, what you see on the Black players' Instagrams is lots of monkey emojis. And, um, it's actua- awfully... My friend called me and he said, "What do we do about this?" Right? And he said, "We're gonna take this stance, um, as a club." And, you know, they, w- we talked a little bit about it on like our WhatsApp group or whatever, and the club s- stood up, changed the cover photos, and said like, "Manchester United against racism. The players got more racism." Because shining a light on it-
- JCJim Chapman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it's like, it's almost like it's not a real thing. How, don't know how to explain this. It's, it could be some 14-year-old kid who, who's leaving these monkey emojis who is actually quite an okay person, but they just have this thing in them where they want a bit of attention.
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They see you or Marcus Rashford as not really a real human-
- JCJim Chapman
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and an idol, and so they think just leaving that... They're not like an inherently bad person, but when you get anonymity and you get, and, and we all have this, you know, envy in us that comes from somewhere, you know the lifeboat analogy.
Episode duration: 1:30:19
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