Jimmy Carr: The Easiest Way To Live A Happier Life | E106

1. 0:00 – 3:04

   Intro

   1. JCJimmy Carr0:01

      I've got one fucking life and this is it.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:04

      He takes a dive for Jimmy Carr!

   3. JCJimmy Carr0:05

      It was not preordained that I was going to be a successful comedian touring the world and being on TV. I just, I knew what I wanted to do and then I pursued it. I was so broken, I was so stripped of serotonin. It went from being on the cover of the paper to going, "You know, this is morally wrong." I was having panic attacks. It's fucking terrifying because you think, "Is this my forever now?" And when you're depressed, it's the appetite for life is just gone. What's the thing that you're good at that you could get better at, that you could be better than you last year? That's the key thing 'cause take that thing, if you can find out what that is for you and then apply some hard work and time, that's your luck. Be happy. I think it's a, it's a powerful thing to aspire to. You know, when you're on a plane and it's going down and the oxygen masks come, you have to grab your mask first or you're no good for anyone else. You being happy makes the people around you happier. Better for your friends, better for your family, better for the world.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:09

      When you clicked on this video, I don't know what you were expecting. When they told me Jimmy Carr was going to be on the Diary of a CEO, I don't know what I was expecting. But what I got and what I learned and the person that showed up is not the Jimmy Carr that I know from TV. It's not the Jimmy Carr that I've watched on TV for many, many decades. The Jimmy Carr that came here today is, quite honestly, a genius, a philosophical thinker, an expert on the topic of happiness. Someone that writes in his brand new book about finding and pursuing your purpose. Jimmy Carr is typically been known for his very comedic one-liners. What he shares today, it's deep, it's profound. And when you find out that he was a Cambridge graduate, it kind of makes sense because Jimmy is a very, very smart man. Not just book smarts. He's life smart. This podcast today is one of my favorite of all time because it has everything. Not just those profound truths that I know, I know will change your life, but also a very remarkable, compelling, vulnerable personal story. One that starts with his mum and his dad, one that starts with dyslexia and feeling rejected at a very young age, one that journeys through being canceled, controversy, panic attacks, depression, and ultimately finding himself. He says it himself, this is the Jimmy Carr you don't know. But I'll tell you this, this is the Jimmy Carr you should. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

2. 3:04 – 15:52

   Your early years

   1. SBSteven Bartlett3:05

      Huh. It's so funny because every time I do this podcast, I always try and think of a new place to start. But having read your story and having read the stories of my guests before they arrive, I always end up starting in the same place. So I was just sat there trying to think of a new way to, to come into it. But I'm gonna go for it. So your childhood, Jimmy, very, very pivotal. And I, I was reading throughout your childhood about these really, really pivotal moments, pivotal moments of changing school and family and mum and dad. Take me to the, the most important context from your childhood.

   2. JCJimmy Carr3:37

      I suppose... I mean, listen, it's, it's when you remember stuff, we're all, um, unreliable narrators when we look back on our lives. And I think the gift of lockdown was that, uh, memory and speed are inversely proportionate. That when you slow down in life, you remember more. You kind of... And, and it's a great time for kind of recalibration and thinking, "Well, what happened?" So the things that... I recently became a father. So you're thinking about childhood again in kind of this new way and thinking, "Well, what are the, what are the things you would want for your child? What would you want to give them?" And also, what were those key moments where you get to decide who you are? And I think that the key bits in my childhood were the moments where you become aware you are a story you tell yourself. So I moved schools when I was 16. And I was kind of, not a tearaway, but I was in trouble and I was messing around and I was with a, uh, a f- a fairly rough crew. Uh, and I switched schools and told a different story. Not to be Machiavellian. You just kind of arrived at the new school and went, "Well, I guess, I guess maybe no one, no one knows me here. I could just be whoever I want to be." And you become aware of how, not consciously, but, uh, even at that early age, aware that you're not a noun, you're a verb. You're a doing thing, and you can do things differently and you can do better. And then so th- that lesson obviously that you then forget that. (laughs) Uh, and you don't make good on that again for a while. So I was kind of in my mid-twenties when the next big kind of sea change of going, "Right, I'm gonna leave, uh, a job working for someone and go on an adventure."

   3. SBSteven Bartlett5:08

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JCJimmy Carr5:08

      And it was... I mean, for me, that kind of mid-twenties thing was, it's not childhood, but it feels like even at 25, I was, um, i- in an archetypical way still a child, because I was living my life for someone else. I hadn't really taken the reins yet. I hadn't really made a decision until I was in my mid-twenties. So it felt like to me, I was, like, a big kid when I was 25. And then suddenly at 26, yo ho ho, a pirate's life for me.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett5:35

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JCJimmy Carr5:35

      I just, I fucked off and joined the circus. I became a comedian and started leading my own life in a way that I think... I mean, part of the reason for the book is I think a lot of people aspire to that. A lot of people want to, um, w- wanna find their purpose and they want to, they want to pursue it. And, you know, it's very sad. A lot of people don't get to do either.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:56

      And when you changed school at 16 years old and you talk about you were able to kind of shed this identity that that school and environment and the teachers there had given you...

   8. JCJimmy Carr6:03

      Well, I think you've got baggage, haven't you? When you're... Even when you're 16, you got baggage. You go to sixth form and you're, oh, you're the tearaway kid. You're gonna do, like, you're gonna do...... you know this well in your exams. It's, it's a, um, your past indicates where your future's gonna go, and it doesn't have to be that way. At some stage, you just have to, you, you cut those apron strings, or you cut with the past and go, "No, I could be academic." You know, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm very dyslexic, and I didn't really learn to read and write until I was about maybe 10 or 11 with any level of proficiency, and then I managed to get myself to Cambridge. And part of that is like a- a force of will. You just go, "Right, I'm gonna... I'll do that. I'll figure out how to do it. I'll figure out what the code is." And often, I think it's that thing of, like, the thing that comics do incredibly well... I talk about like, the superpowers of comedians, what comedians do brilliantly, is they're great at pat- pattern recognition. And that strikes me as like the most important thing in life for humans, is pattern recognition. Well, that, that kinda works like that. How do you write an A-grade essay? It's not about knowing about history. It's about knowing the structure of what that essay looks like. And so you kind of lift the structure and go, "Right, well, I'll just... I'll- I'll- I'll write to that formula"-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett7:13

      Hmm.

   10. JCJimmy Carr7:14

       ... "cracking the code on stuff." And I think at every level, you're trying to crack new codes, you're trying to get better at stuff.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett7:20

       And, and d'you think, if you go back to that, that changing schools scenario again, you were given this identity, and that identity came with a set of, like, implicit instructions on who you were, which we then all, for some reason, subconsciously believe and then obey, and then we start fulfilling?

   12. JCJimmy Carr7:36

       100%. I mean, a hun... I think the, the, the things that dictate our lives are our beliefs. Your, your life is as good as you, you believe it's gonna be. I think... I'm a real advocate that disposition is more important than position, and 95% of life is how you look at it and 5% is what happens to you. So, the idea that you go, "What, what are you gonna believe?" Well, most of our beliefs, the, the beliefs that really affect us, are the, um, presuppositions that we make. We don't even think about them. We just think it's, "Oh, I'm not the kinda person that does that. I'm not the kinda person, 'cause I'm not from that background," or, "I'm not, I'm not from showbiz, I don't know anyone in showbiz so I'm never gonna be in showbiz." And then you allow yourself at some stage, you go, "Well, fuck that, I'm gonna allow myself to dream or to, to, uh, to try and be more than."

   13. SBSteven Bartlett8:19

       Hmm.

   14. JCJimmy Carr8:20

       But, you know, the premise of the book kind of is there's nothing special about me. It was not preordained that I was gonna be a successful comedian touring the world and being on TV. That was not like a lock. I don't have a, uh, uh, irrefutable talent. I just, I knew what I wanted to do and, you know, "What do you want?" being the key question in life. And then I pursued it-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett8:42

       Hmm.

   16. JCJimmy Carr8:42

       ... kinda doggedly, because e- I, I found my purpose, and that strikes me as something that's, um, a- achievable. Not, you know... I'm not suggesting everyone goes out and becomes a comedian, but I want better lives for everyone.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett8:56

       I read, um, I read that you said you spent a lot of time cheering your mother up.

   18. JCJimmy Carr9:05

       Yeah, I think most comics... I mean, the cliché is the comedian is depressed, right?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett9:09

       Hmm.

   20. JCJimmy Carr9:09

       That's the go to. And it's such a pleasing irony. Why wouldn't it be? Because you go, oh, yeah, they, you know, he makes us laugh, but, uh, he's really down. You know the old, um-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett9:19

       Yeah,

   22. NANarrator9:19

       I forgot about that.

   23. JCJimmy Carr9:20

       ... you know the old story... There's an old joke about a, a guy's like super depressed, like he's gonna kill himself, he's really down, and he goes to see a psychiatrist. And the psychiatrist says, "Well, you need to, you know, you need to cheer up. Grimaldi is in town, the great c- clown. Grimaldi is in town. He's the greatest clown the world has ever seen. He's hil- I saw him last w- he's hilarious. You won't even be able to breathe 'cause you'll be laughing so much and you'll forget your worries and you'll just be happy again." And the guy goes, "But I am Grimaldi."

   24. SBSteven Bartlett9:51

       Hmm.

   25. JCJimmy Carr9:52

       It's a great old joke about, you know, it's like, okay, tears of a clown thing. I think it's parents. I think my mother was... If you talk to comedians, you'll talk to a lot of comedians on this podcast, right? So, I think the question to ask is which parent was sick. It, it tends to be, you know, one of them, and it tends to be either physical or mental with my, my mother was depressed. You don't know that when you're a kid. You just, you know something isn't right. You know you have to, the atmosphere has to be changed.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett10:18

       Hmm.

   27. JCJimmy Carr10:18

       So you become very good at, um, at changing people's states-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett10:22

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JCJimmy Carr10:22

       ... and then that becomes your job. You lean into that. That becomes a very important thing that you place a lot of value on. Now, I hadn't put that together till I was in my mid-20s, but the idea of goi- being able to change people's states is a, it's a, it's an interesting skillset. I mean, I like to think of myself as a drug dealer.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett10:39

       Hmm.
3. 15:52 – 23:24

   Mental health and online connections

   1. JCJimmy Carr15:52

   2. SBSteven Bartlett15:52

      Hmm. Do you think it, do you... Yeah. So what, now, I don't know why I'm asking you this question, 'cause these are, these are-

   3. JCJimmy Carr15:56

      No.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett15:56

      ... you know, these are very complex questions specifically around mental health. But I, I, I think it ki- uh, all of these questions come from my own place of like deep, deep curiosity. Um, as it relates to, to mental health, the apparent increase in it in our society, whether that's because more people are, you know, labeling it or because they're, more people are actually going through those, um, those ailments.

   5. JCJimmy Carr16:16

      Well, I think there's, I think there is a, um, you know, if, if we take it over, you know, not a huge, not geological time, but over like a 30-year time plan, uh, what's happened the last 30 years? Well, it's the rise of the individual, right? We've all become, uh, the individuals become more powerful, and the group or the tribe has become less powerful. And that is not only a force for good. There's a negative to that as well. So people feel, their families are smaller. Um, groups are smaller. People feel like they go their own way. So we've never been more connected and felt more alienated. It's, you, we, you know, we set up to, to, to fail almost. There's a generation of people that feel like they're incredibly connected, and they have a huge number of friends online. But they have no one to talk to. And that's a, it's a, it's a, that's a difficult thing. And they don't feel maybe part of a group. They always feel a little bit other. So that's, you know, if you... There's a great book called Selfie and a great book called Tribe. I remember sort of reading them back to back and thinking, "Yeah, there's, something's going on here. And why do, why does everyone wanna go to Glastonbury? Why does everyone wanna go to a music festival?" It's not necessarily 'cause they, you know, "I love that song." Sing that song anyway. You play that song on your headphones. But they wanna feel part of something and they wanna be in a crowd with other people and feel a sense of belonging. There's, there's something a little bit, our society's unbelievably great. And I love that kind of Steven Pinker Enlightenment Now thing about, right, it's the best it's ever been. There's fucking terrible things happening, but it's the best it's ever been. I love that positive attitude. But there are serious issues, especially, I mean, it seems especially for young people, it seems like it's, um... I mean, part of the reason to write the book is I have a son.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett17:59

      Your son, right.

   7. JCJimmy Carr17:59

      But also the people that come and see my shows and the people that go, "Well, I don't, I don't know what to do." And yet, you know, they're, and they come out for a laugh or whatever, and you go, "Well, I'm not, I'm the jester here. I don't have any answers, but this is what worked for me." So sharing that felt like a, um, a really, I was so privileged to be able to do that. And you think about your life and your childhood and the people that you met along the way that made huge differences with seemingly small interventions.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett18:28

      Hmm.The world seems to be hurtling more and more in the direction of individualism, loneliness. I mean, the stats would back that up, that we're getting more and more lonely as we're moving online and, and you know, Facebook announced they're changing their name to Meta last week and they're, huh, you know, building the, the metaverse which we're all-

   9. JCJimmy Carr18:44

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett18:45

       ... gonna live in and-

   11. JCJimmy Carr18:46

       It's interesting how empathetic and beautiful people are one-on-one. Y- you know, if you've, you've ever met someone one-on-one that, uh, cancel culture is an interesting thing to talk about, right? 'Cause I get canceled at some stage in the next two years. It just happens.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett19:00

       Yeah.

   13. JCJimmy Carr19:00

       Let's just accept that. For a joke I've done online, it's already out there, it's pointless me worrying about it. But that thing of like one-on-one with people, people are incredibly empathetic and kind and there's a thing that we're doing now where we're not on a Zoom call, we're across the table from each other looking into each other's eyes having a conversation, there's an intimacy to that. There's like a, there's like a, okay, we're, we're gonna have a conversation here and we're gonna see each other's points of view and we're gonna talk about it and it's a, it, it's, there's something about this that goes back 10,000 years, like people have always done this. The online thing, you, what, what are we missing from that, with that, that immediacy? And I think the, the crisis in lockdown where people were literally locked down and shut away, it's just, it's not good for us.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett19:44

       How do we change it?

   15. JCJimmy Carr19:45

       Well, I don't know. I mean, I think there's... I, I, I don't know is, is the answer. I mean, I think there's, th- the really simple shit is, is not getting done.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett19:55

       For me, 'cause it feels like this big boat that's going in one direction and it's speeding up. And what I mean by that is we're actually building our lives into the digital space, which is making us more socially connected online, but more disconnected in the real world.

   17. JCJimmy Carr20:09

       There's an interesting thing going on, I mean, I, it's interesting and terrible, um, where people are... I, I sort of quote a lot in the book, I use a lot of quotes because I sort of think quotes are the truth. Like, the, it's everything else has been burnt away, there's nothing left but these six or seven words that just sum something up and you go, "That's just, fucking that stuck around for 50 years for a reason, that's just fucking true." So the, th- I think it's Eleanor Roosevelt that said, you know, "Comparison is the thief of joy," which I love because we're comparing our lives to everyone else, right? We're the classic, uh, you know, millennial kind of phrase of like you're comparing your insides to someone else's outsides.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett20:47

       Mm.

   19. JCJimmy Carr20:47

       But even, there's another thing layered on top of that now where I don't know you online, but you have an online profile and you might well be jealous of yourself online.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett20:56

       (laughs)

   21. JCJimmy Carr20:57

       Because you look at your pictures of yourself online and you're always smiling and you're always with beautiful people drinking a cocktail on a beach, beautiful car, beautiful thing-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett21:05

       Face.

   23. JCJimmy Carr21:05

       That thing of like you can't... you're disconnecting with how you feel and how you put, you choose to express yourself digitally. Um, so there, there's, it's a, it- it's an odd thing that's, that's happening. I think like feeling connected to other people and laughing with other people, I think it's... Here's how we fix it, right? It's nature and nurture, right? So oldest debate in the world, nature, nurture, what's important? Well, who fucking cares? Nature's the cards we were dealt, right? That's what we got. We got this, I got this, you got that, okay, well, all right, you win.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett21:39

       (laughs)

   25. JCJimmy Carr21:40

       So, so but that thing of going, the nature/nurture thing is right. You've got the nature, that's fine, that's the cards. How you're gonna play it is the nurture. And I think there's a perception that nurture is finished at 15, 18, 20, 21. At what stage do you think you're done? I'm done, off to the world now, gonna kill it. Like, it's a nonsense. N- nurture is like an ongoing process of like, and thinking about it, giving it even five minutes thought of going, right, who do I like and why do I like them? Well, I like, I like who I am with people, that's why I like them. So when I'm with my child, I like who I am when I'm a dad, I like playing that role, I like being that part. I like, I like who I am when I'm with my friend Johnny and we're chatting about music. I like who I am when I'm with, you know, my, my, my friend, uh, Matt and we're chatting about aliens or what... you know, those things and spending, finding more time with those people-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett22:32

       Mm.

   27. JCJimmy Carr22:32

       ... and laughing and connecting with the people that make you happy.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett22:36

       Mm.

   29. JCJimmy Carr22:37

       That seems to be the, the, the, you know, the smart thing. I mean, the, you know, I suppose there's simple shit like, you know, putting your phone away for a day. Have you ever done that? We did it on our last holiday.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett22:47

       My girlfriend says you do it.
4. 23:24 – 31:32

   Fatherhood

   1. JCJimmy Carr23:24

      with that.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett23:25

      Mm-hmm. We talked there about one half of your parental equation.

   3. JCJimmy Carr23:28

      Mm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett23:29

      Tell me about the other half.

   5. JCJimmy Carr23:30

      Mm. Well, I, you know, I've just become a father-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett23:33

      Mm.

   7. JCJimmy Carr23:34

      ... and I'm acutely aware that it doesn't always work out. I haven't seen my father in, uh, 20 years, I guess, um, it's a long time.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett23:42

      Mm.

   9. JCJimmy Carr23:42

      Um, and I, I don't have a, a relationship with him and listen, there's, there's three stories, m- mine and yours and then the truth. Um, but that's the facts of the matter is I don't have any relationship with my father, so that makes me, um... That's another lesson in life though, isn't it? You should go, right, if you don't have a father, don't be a dummy about it. Don't not have a father, just find a different one. Fi- that archetype is so important to our development, having a mother is, you know, when my mother died I didn't go, "Well, I guess, you know, the older female nurturing, um, archetype, I just, I guess I'll live without that." You go, you find other people that are gonna... Maybe not one other person but you find, uh, you put your team together, you put your nurture together and you, you go, "Well, I need to find those people." You need to find... I mean, I suppose I'm, uh, lucky in the, the job that I do that you have certain, you know, people are further down the road.So if you look to them as kinda mentors or you look to them as, as, uh, as people that you wanna impress and you want to, you, you know, you're aware of that, what you need.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett24:47

       And, and now you've had a son.

   11. JCJimmy Carr24:49

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett24:49

       That must be a ... You know, there was two things you talked about that were really, really pivotal in recent times. One of them was the pandemic.

   13. JCJimmy Carr24:56

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett24:56

       And the other one was obviously the birth of your, of your own son. What are the, the top level, you know, shifts that have occurred in you because of those two events?

   15. JCJimmy Carr25:05

       Well, I suppose, I mean, I got, I was kinda late to fatherhood, I think because, um, I think it was, I think psychologically, I think maybe I didn't wanna be, uh, I didn't wanna be a father because I didn't wanna be my father.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett25:19

       Hmm.

   17. JCJimmy Carr25:20

       Uh, and, you know, so you find a different way through, you find different models. You know, I've got friends that are incredible fathers and you kinda model that. And it's that thing of like, it's what humans do. We kinda go, "Well, okay, well, I could kinda do that. I could see what he's doing there." And that's amazing. So that felt like, I mean, it's such a, I mean, everyone does it. It's like not a big deal that I've had a kid. But it, it's a big deal in my life obviously. It's like, it's, uh, it, there's a quote in the book. Aca- I love quotes. Um, "It's like having a medical procedure where your heart now lives outside your body."

   18. SBSteven Bartlett25:53

       Hmm.

   19. JCJimmy Carr25:55

       I kinda, uh, there's a bit of me that kind of, "Oh, I wish I'd done it sooner." And then there's another-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett25:58

       Really?

   21. JCJimmy Carr25:59

       ... there's another bit of me that goes, "I wasn't ready for it sooner. I'm ready for it now."

   22. SBSteven Bartlett26:05

       Interesting. My friend said that to me, he's just had a baby and he said, "Oh, I just wish I'd done it sooner." I'm thinking, "Really?" But is that, is that real?

   23. JCJimmy Carr26:12

       Yeah, but you know, it's, uh, but it got you to, to there. It's like, it's, it's f- There's a great Chinese expression, a great old proverb. "The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now."

   24. SBSteven Bartlett26:23

       Hmm.

   25. JCJimmy Carr26:26

       They're pretty wise, those Chinese guys. They know what they're talking about.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett26:29

       Going back to, you know, your university time, 'cause I remember, 'cause just kind of going through in chronological order. I remember I was reading about how you, you know, you, you leave the nest. You go and get, you know, you go and get a, you go to Cambridge, which I thought was amazing considering you're, you know, you were an undiagnosed dyslexic.

   27. JCJimmy Carr26:45

       I wasn't diagnosed. Um-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett26:47

       At the time you were undiagnosed, right?

   29. JCJimmy Carr26:48

       Yeah, I got diagnosed at college.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett26:49

       Right.
5. 31:32 – 39:10

   Atheism

   1. JCJimmy Carr31:32

      this is my one life." I mean, I think my loss of religious faith was a very important part of my, um-

   2. SBSteven Bartlett31:38

      Same. Same.

   3. JCJimmy Carr31:38

      ... life. I think it was a huge thing of going, religious faith, faith for me was the ultimate in procrastination. It was about the next life.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett31:46

      Yeah. And it was also, there's potentially a puppet master and a judge, so I've just gotta-

   5. JCJimmy Carr31:50

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett31:51

      ... play to this Bible potentially, or, you know, when, when... I, I was the same, I lost my religious faith in Christianity when I was 18.

   7. JCJimmy Carr31:58

      Right. I was a bit late to the party, I was about may-, you know, 24, 25, something like that.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett32:01

      Right.

   9. JCJimmy Carr32:01

      Uh, it's, it's, um, and I don't view it, I don't view atheism as like a, this isn't gonna be, um, Christopher Hitchens and Dawkins.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett32:09

       Yeah. (laughs)

   11. JCJimmy Carr32:09

       You know, it's not like-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett32:10

       It's like-

   13. JCJimmy Carr32:10

       ... it's not like a dry, intellectual aesthetic. It's like, it's a rush of blood to the head.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett32:17

       Yeah.

   15. JCJimmy Carr32:17

       It's like, I've got one fucking life and this is it, and we're in it right now, and there isn't a second to waste.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett32:24

       Yeah.

   17. JCJimmy Carr32:24

       Let's do this. What are we doing?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett32:25

       Yeah.

   19. JCJimmy Carr32:25

       What am I doing? What's exciting?

   20. SBSteven Bartlett32:26

       Yeah.

   21. JCJimmy Carr32:26

       What's fun? What's, and, and, and kind of stand or fall, it doesn't matter.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett32:31

       Yeah. When I realized that I was an atheist, after trying to convince my brothers of a Jesus and a, and a God, and then really realizing I was an atheist, I spent two years absolutely obsessed with atheism. So, Dawkins-

   23. JCJimmy Carr32:43

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett32:43

       ... Hitchens. I watched every video, every book you could read. And then I was an antagonist to, to religious people.

   25. JCJimmy Carr32:49

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett32:49

       Because it's almost like I was trying to test-

   27. JCJimmy Carr32:51

       You were still at the center.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett32:52

       Yeah, it was still-

   29. JCJimmy Carr32:53

       Yeah.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett32:53

       And then you-
6. 39:10 – 51:31

   Leaving the corporate world for comedy

   1. SBSteven Bartlett39:10

      Zoom me right in on that moment then. You're working at Shell as a marketing executive. There's a day, is it a moment, is it a comment where you think, "Fuck this"? And then, to go from there to comedian-

   2. JCJimmy Carr39:23

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett39:23

      ... it doesn't make any sense-

   4. JCJimmy Carr39:25

      No.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett39:25

      ... to an- to an external on the planet like me.

   6. JCJimmy Carr39:26

      It doesn't. I mean, it doesn't-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett39:27

      Make it make sense for me, please.

   8. JCJimmy Carr39:29

      Okay. So, I had a boss there, a guy called Mike Harth, who I recently kinda got back in touch with a little bit. So I was- I was working for Shell. I initially worked for an advertising agency. And-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett39:38

      He's the one you call an asshole in your book.

   10. JCJimmy Carr39:40

       No.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett39:40

       (laughs) I'm joking, I'm joking.

   12. JCJimmy Carr39:41

       No, but he-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett39:41

       (laughs)

   14. JCJimmy Carr39:42

       But that would have- that was good. Uh, so he's- he's the... That's a typo. Um, funny man.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett39:47

       (laughs) That's a typo.

   16. JCJimmy Carr39:48

       The, uh, th- so I was working for an advertising company and then I figured out, okay, advertising is, this is bullshit. Who's- who are these people calling me, asking me for shit? Are marketing managers, right? Get into marketing. So I got a job with Shell. So I'm working for Shell and then I kind of, I'd figured out, look, I'm not happy here. I was kinda low energy. I was not the funny guy in the office. I was just like, "Oh, this is fi- this is bullshit. We're all working here for shareholder value. I could give a fuck." And, uh, I- I went, "Okay, well what's a cooler job? What's a better version of this?" So I went and did like the McKinsey Boston Consulting interview.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett40:24

       Really?

   18. JCJimmy Carr40:24

       So I was like, I said to my boss, nice- nice guy, Mark, um, uh, Mike. I said, "Look, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go and try to get a job at one of these things." And he sat me down in his office and just went... "No, I can't see it. I can't see it. Just, you're just gonna have the same problem somewhere else. I just don't see it." And that was kind of enough. It was enough that he saw me as like a funny, nice guy, and just went, "Yeah, this isn't for you. You're in the wrong stream." You know? So the ladder, the analogy of the- the- the ladder that you've climbed is leaning against the wrong wall. And there's no finer, like- like ripping up your CV, metaphorically, going, "I never need this again. No one needs to know how I did in my A-levels ever again."

   19. SBSteven Bartlett41:11

       (laughs)

   20. JCJimmy Carr41:11

       "No one gives a fuck about my degree." I mean, maybe some of this stuff will come in handy on QI 10 years later. But otherwise, who cares? And you're just off doing your thing. And it's, you know, none of that was wasted. I mean, an education is a incredible thing. What a gift to have. Um, but it just felt like it was- it was kind of freedom. And they- they did a little voluntary redundancy thing, which was meant to get rid of the dead wood. It was meant to get rid of people that, you know, 55, 60, and just get 'em out the door so more people could come in. And I was on the management graduate scheme thing, blue chip thing. I just went, "Yeah, can..." What would I get if I left? They went, "Five grand." And I went, "I'm out."

   21. SBSteven Bartlett41:50

       (laughs)

   22. JCJimmy Carr41:50

       Fucking great. Not only am I leaving, they're giving me money to leave. (laughs) And I was, it- it's weird. I had like a reputation when I started doing comedy of being, um, the hardest working comic. 'Cause I went out 300 nights a year, every year the first five years. Just like was, like just on it. I was so feckless at work. It's a really good indication of if you're doing the right thing.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett42:13

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JCJimmy Carr42:13

       If, like I used to put in a meeting at 11:00 AM on a Friday and another meeting in at 2:00 AM, so that I could go to a movie in Leicester Square and be back and just go, "Oh yeah, nothing happened."

   25. SBSteven Bartlett42:24

       (laughs)

   26. JCJimmy Carr42:24

       Just like a lazy fucker.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett42:26

       Isn't that in- so interesting? I was exactly the same. My- I, my attendance in school was 30, 40%. But then, and in fact it wasn't in my business class. It was 100% in my business class. And then, when I left school, as this lazy kid that was gonna fail-

   28. JCJimmy Carr42:38

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett42:38

       ... I outworked everybody at the thing that I loved doing.

   30. JCJimmy Carr42:40

       But it, it's-
7. 51:31 – 58:45

   Find purpose and knowing you’re enough

   1. JCJimmy Carr51:31

      What's gonna be the thing that you go-

   2. SBSteven Bartlett51:33

      And this is-

   3. JCJimmy Carr51:33

      ... "What do I wanna do?"

   4. SBSteven Bartlett51:34

      And this is exactly it. So you think about how important purpose is for people to feel stabilized and fulfilled, et cetera, as we've talked about earlier, and then you think about these people that are, they're striving for a million, a billion, a trillion.

   5. JCJimmy Carr51:47

      Well, think about what a midlife crisis is, right? So I talk a lot about midlife crisis in the book, and you go, well, midlife crisis is someone that's found their purpose and they've done their thing and then they've gone, "Is this it?"

   6. SBSteven Bartlett51:58

      Yeah.

   7. JCJimmy Carr51:58

      "Is this it?" And then they want something like excitement. So what do they buy? Sports car. Is it exciting? I don't fucking know. I mean, maybe. Maybe if you're super into cars, I guess it's good, but like there aren't, it's all advertising speaks to this, right? I know I'm right 'cause all advertising ever is about, it's no longer about the functionality of the product. It's about the, well, what- what- what do you want? You wanna- you wanna feel like a-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett52:21

      Self-esteem.

   9. JCJimmy Carr52:22

      Like... Self-esteem? Great. Rolls-Royce. You want excitement? We got Ferraris for you.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett52:26

       Hmm.

   11. JCJimmy Carr52:26

       You wanna get your dicks out? We got a Porsche. Whatever the thing is-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett52:29

       Lamborghinis.

   13. JCJimmy Carr52:29

       ... the, the, you know, you got that, that- that kind of there's a different one, and they're playing on different emotions. And I think being aware of, I mean, I come back to it all the time, what do you want is the fundamental question. Like, in any s- scenario, when you sit down to eat, what do you want? What do you want from life? What- what do you want? What's- what's the thing that you want? And often it's-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett52:52

       (laughs)

   15. JCJimmy Carr52:53

       It's often asking that question multiple times because the first answer tends to be-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett52:57

       Bullshit.

   17. JCJimmy Carr52:58

       Well, I think wishing wells work, right? But they don't work when you think they work. It's nothing to... there's no magic. The magic is, if there is any, knowing what to wish for, knowing what that thing is. You know, 'cause if someone says, "I want a million pounds," you go, "You don't know what you fucking want." You want tokens for things that you might want in the future. What do you want? What are you doing? What are you trying to be?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett53:20

       (laughs)

   19. JCJimmy Carr53:21

       Who- who- who are you trying to become?

   20. SBSteven Bartlett53:23

       I ask people this, young people specifically, this question, and they will say things that are all about external validation. So, "I wanna be," like, you know, the one variation of famous that you might see, public speaker. And you say, "Why do you wanna be a public speaker?" And really when you get to the crux of it, what they actually wanna be is they want the admiration that they think public speakers get.

   21. JCJimmy Carr53:41

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett53:41

       Because, you know, their dad didn't talk to them or something.

   23. JCJimmy Carr53:44

       Yeah. But I could- I could see that, the idea of going, I think a lot of that is like that tribal thing of going, "I wanna be recognized."

   24. SBSteven Bartlett53:51

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JCJimmy Carr53:51

       "I'm in a very privileged position in that I'm famous."

   26. SBSteven Bartlett53:53

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JCJimmy Carr53:53

       And I would argue that's the norm. That's the norm for the longest time in human history, that everyone knew everyone. We used to live in, what, tr- for like, 10, 10,000 years, you know, what, longer, the- the longest time we were, we were in tribes between 60 and 100 people. Everyone knew everyone. A stranger was a weird thing.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett54:14

       Hmm.

   29. JCJimmy Carr54:14

       And now we see strangers all the time and we act like it's normal, but it ain't. And so that desire to belong, to be famous, what- what is was ever thus. It's always been that way. There was a, there's a, you know, it was in ancient Rome, people wanted to be famous and wanted to be adored and wanted to be... That's like a, it's valid, and- and, you know, how do you deal with that? How do you-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett54:34

       Hmm.
8. 58:45 – 1:03:38

   Whats happiness?

   1. JCJimmy Carr58:45

      Someone going, "You did that many..." So what's happiness? Right, I've got a couple of theories on happiness. I think flow states are where happiness lives.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett58:54

      What's a flow state?

   3. JCJimmy Carr58:55

      So if you-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett58:56

      I know, but I'm just...

   5. JCJimmy Carr58:56

      If you get into a state where you lose track of time, that's a pretty good indicator. A lot of people get it with, uh, sports. Okay, so you, you're doing something that you so enjoy, you're so engaged in this activity, you forget even where you are. You might get it playing video games. I get it on stage, where I'm just in this moment and I enjoy it. I'm totally engaged and I'm, I'm in the flow. You see musicians kind of embody it on stage. Spend as much time in a flow state as you can in life. If, if that can become your job, then tremendous. That is, that's success. Uh, everything else is who, who cares? But that thing is like, that's amazing. So what's your flow state? What's the state? What's the thing you do where you go, "This is, this is my shit"? I mean, what is it?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett59:50

      For me?

   7. JCJimmy Carr59:51

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett59:52

      Ah, a lot of things come to mind. One of them is, um, I've got this show that's touring at the moment. It's in the London Palladium in Fe- in February, um, and I was, well as you were saying that, I was imagining sitting in the chair on stage with, with my choir, and it, that feels like my flow state.

   9. JCJimmy Carr1:00:06

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:06

       Feels like I'm just on my own, just fucking floating.

   11. JCJimmy Carr1:00:10

       And you'll tr- you'll try and hold onto that moment.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:12

       Yeah.

   13. JCJimmy Carr1:00:12

       You'll try-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:13

       Yeah.

   15. JCJimmy Carr1:00:13

       ... and it's like quicksilver 'cause it's like the time will just float by-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:16

       Yeah.

   17. JCJimmy Carr1:00:16

       ... and you know you'll be there, and there's kind of a high before the high even thinking about it.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:20

       Yeah. Hmm.

   19. JCJimmy Carr1:00:20

       But that thing of going, "That's next February. I won't do." You're gonna need that once a week. You're gonna need that once a day.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:26

       Yeah.

   21. JCJimmy Carr1:00:26

       That, more of that. Like, leaning into that edge of going, "That's, if that's where I'm happy, that's where you should be."

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:33

       This.

   23. JCJimmy Carr1:00:33

       This is lovely, actually.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:34

       Yeah.

   25. JCJimmy Carr1:00:34

       Th- I think, I think kind of there's, it's a, I think the reason sort of panel shows are so popular on TV is because this is missing from our culture. Like, this is how we should end every day.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:44

       Hmm.

   27. JCJimmy Carr1:00:44

       The reason podcasts are blowing up is because people desperately wanna be in a conversation. And there's something very intimate about podcasts. There's something about the long form and listening that's really, it's, it's lo-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:56

       When you don't do them on Zoom.

   29. JCJimmy Carr1:00:58

       Yeah, you can't do them on Zoom. There's no eye contact. My other theory on happiness is it's expectations exceeded.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:05

       Oh, yeah.
9. 1:03:38 – 1:13:04

   Hard work

   1. JCJimmy Carr1:03:38

      a fucking lottery win.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:41

      Hard work, very pivotal to your, um, you getting here today by the sounds of it, especially in those early years as a comedian after leaving Shell. What role does hard work play in our society, um, sorry, in, in becoming a successful individual at whatever pursuit or whatever passion you're pursuing? There's a, there's probably a counter-narrative that I think has emerged in our country, maybe because of social media has allowed people to kinda converge behind that and relinquish responsibility of their situations by calling hard, referring to hard work as being a really, really sort of toxic thing. And I've, I felt that more recently. I didn't see it when I was younger.

   3. JCJimmy Carr1:04:14

      Really? I mean, let's, let's... You know what? Let's have a... Are you a gambling man?

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:18

      Uh, not... It depends. I mean, in life, not, not in the casino, but-

   5. JCJimmy Carr1:04:21

      Well, then let's, let's... Yeah, let's, let's put a bet on that. Let's see how that works out for them. I just don't think that's gonna bring him happiness.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:27

      Which part?

   7. JCJimmy Carr1:04:28

      That hard work is toxic. Okay. Okay, don't do, don't do hard work then. Good luck, dummy. It's just not gonna work for you. That's not gonna pay out. Because what's the metric of our society? It's results, right? And I don't care how... There's two great myths in our society, right? There's one myth is talent and ideas, and there's another myth which is hard work. They're both bullshit. Total fucking bullshit. 'Cause the, the, the, uh, ideas are cheaper than table salt, right? There's, there's... Everyone's got ideas. "I've got an idea for an app. It's the Uber for..."

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:03

      (laughs)

   9. JCJimmy Carr1:05:04

      Fill in the thing here. S- yeah, great. Sure, sure. It's every idea is about implementation. Every, um... Sports is a good analogy, right? So Michael Jordan, greatest of all time, right? There's no debate. He's the greatest. How much did he work? Fucking more than anyone else. How much natural talent did he have? Nah, more than anyone else. What if he hadn't worked? You never heard of him. He never would've made the team, let alone been the greatest, but wouldn't have even made the team if he hadn't trained. It's a good analogy for life of going, "Look, whatever talent you have, if you don't do the work as well, it's, it's, it's just a waste of potential." So I think it's, it's the absolute fundamental. Now, hard work and drudgery are not the same thing, right? It, it... Like, there's a, there's a working smart and working hard, and there's a difference between the two. Like, if you're, if you're working at something and it's like hard work alone won't do anything, you know? It's about what stream you're in. And, uh, uh, I suppose the extreme example would be if you're collecting, um, y- you know, recyclable metals on a favela dump in South America, work as hard as you want. It's, n- nothing's ever get... It's, you're never gonna get to that level. So you, you work hard if you must and you work smart if you can. If you can... You know, if w- anyone listening to this is already in a privileged position, in that, uh, you know, odds are Western world, doing okay, have a digital phone, that's, you're doing better than a third of the world before you even start. You know, most people don't have running water. Uh, you know, most people don't have a flushing toilet. The world's in a fucking terrifying state. So it's that thing of going, "Well, work as smart as you can. Work at the thing that you're best at." I think school teaches us maybe the wrong lesson. School teaches us a lesson about mediocrity and being all-rounders, and yet we live in a world that does not reward all-rounders. Who gives a fuck about all-rounders? If you, if you get a D in physics and you get an A in English, I say just go to English lessons. 'Cause we're gonna get you up to a C grade in physics. I'll tell you what the world doesn't need, someone who's shit at physics.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:10

       (laughs)

   11. JCJimmy Carr1:07:10

       Still, still shit at physics with no natural... So find out what you've kind of got a natural, you know, that edge thing. Find out what you have a natural ability for, what's the thing that you do best. And again, I would remind people, it's not the best in the world, just better than anything else you do. Lean into that. Like, I'm all for following your dreams if your dreams are what you're best at. And the opinions of family and friends don't count.And then, it's, it's a little bit... I suppose it's a bit tough love. It's that thing of going, "Look. Look at what your inner critic says, okay? And it won't be wrong." Look at what your inner critic says about you, walk back the cruelty, and you gotta... Okay, that's the reality. That's the starting point. That's fine.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:53

       I read that in your book. And I was, I was in, like, I was laying in bed. It was actually your audio book, I was listening to it. And I, and then y- you said, "The thing about your in- inner critic," which a lot of people obviously don't wanna admit, "is their inner critic is usually right." And I remember sitting there thinking, "No, that can't be right. Let me check this." And then I started listening to my inner critic for a couple of seconds, and I thought, "No, that's right. That's right, that's right." But please expand on that idea of the inner critic.

   13. JCJimmy Carr1:08:14

       Well look, the, the, the, the idea of the inner critic is going... Look, I, I went to a, a fancy university, right? And I think Cambridge is where impostor syndrome was built.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:25

       (laughs)

   15. JCJimmy Carr1:08:25

       And there's, there's a lot of impostor syndrome in the world, right? You arrive at a new workplace and you go, "Jesus, they must've made a mistake and got the wrong CV and given me the job, and oh, cri-... Or I'm at this new college, or I'm at, I'm at this new... I'm starting this thing and I don't know what I'm doing." That feeling of, "I'm not enough and I don't know what I'm doing," is why you buy the Business Management for Dummies book and fucking read it the night before. It's what drives you to do the homework. So, I got to Cambridge and I thought, "I'm not smart enough to be here." And then I worked my fucking nuts off and it turned out I was wrong, and I was smart enough to be there and I did really well. Because I fucking, 'cause I was motivated by the, "I'm not good enough to be here. I need to work. I need to work hard." Uh, you know, you start in comedy and you go, "Oh my God, I've given up everything to be a comedian. I've got 20 minutes of jokes that work. I, I'm gonna need thousands of jokes that work, and they all have to work. Fuck!" And you get to work. W- What's the motivation? What's the thing that wakes you up at 4:00 in the morning? And you go, "I need to fucking do this. I can't rely on just being, hey, I'm just gonna wisecrack and..." You know, asking a comic to improvise an hour-long show is like asking a magician to do real magic.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:35

       There's something-

   17. JCJimmy Carr1:09:36

       The work is done in the gym. By the time I get to the stage, I know it's gonna be a good show. I kn- I've tried these jokes on other people. I know we're a lock. You know, 10, 20% of the evening is about the fun that happens in that room, the messing around with the audience, the, the showing off the work that I've done in the gym, the muscle memory of kno- knowing how to make people laugh. Great. But I'm gonna arrive ready.

Episode duration: 1:40:27