Jimmy Carr: The Easiest Way To Live A Happier Life | E106

Jimmy Carr 0:01 I've got one fucking life and this is it.

Steven Bartlett 0:04 He takes a dive for Jimmy Carr!

Jimmy Carr 0:05 It was not preordained that I was going to be a successful comedian touring the world and being on TV. I just, I knew what I wanted to do and then I pursued it. I was so broken, I was so stripped of serotonin. It went from being on the cover of the paper to going, "You know, this is morally wrong." I was having panic attacks. It's fucking terrifying because you think, "Is this my forever now?" And when you're depressed, it's the appetite for life is just gone. What's the thing that you're good at that you could get better at, that you could be better than you last year? That's the key thing 'cause take that thing, if you can find out what that is for you and then apply some hard work and time, that's your luck. Be happy. I think it's a, it's a powerful thing to aspire to. You know, when you're on a plane and it's going down and the oxygen masks come, you have to grab your mask first or you're no good for anyone else. You being happy makes the people around you happier. Better for your friends, better for your family, better for the world.

Steven Bartlett 1:09 When you clicked on this video, I don't know what you were expecting. When they told me Jimmy Carr was going to be on the Diary of a CEO, I don't know what I was expecting. But what I got and what I learned and the person that showed up is not the Jimmy Carr that I know from TV. It's not the Jimmy Carr that I've watched on TV for many, many decades. The Jimmy Carr that came here today is, quite honestly, a genius, a philosophical thinker, an expert on the topic of happiness. Someone that writes in his brand new book about finding and pursuing your purpose. Jimmy Carr is typically been known for his very comedic one-liners. What he shares today, it's deep, it's profound. And when you find out that he was a Cambridge graduate, it kind of makes sense because Jimmy is a very, very smart man. Not just book smarts. He's life smart. This podcast today is one of my favorite of all time because it has everything. Not just those profound truths that I know, I know will change your life, but also a very remarkable, compelling, vulnerable personal story. One that starts with his mum and his dad, one that starts with dyslexia and feeling rejected at a very young age, one that journeys through being canceled, controversy, panic attacks, depression, and ultimately finding himself. He says it himself, this is the Jimmy Carr you don't know. But I'll tell you this, this is the Jimmy Carr you should. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

Steven Bartlett 3:05 Huh. It's so funny because every time I do this podcast, I always try and think of a new place to start. But having read your story and having read the stories of my guests before they arrive, I always end up starting in the same place. So I was just sat there trying to think of a new way to, to come into it. But I'm gonna go for it. So your childhood, Jimmy, very, very pivotal. And I, I was reading throughout your childhood about these really, really pivotal moments, pivotal moments of changing school and family and mum and dad. Take me to the, the most important context from your childhood.

Jimmy Carr 3:37 I suppose... I mean, listen, it's, it's when you remember stuff, we're all, um, unreliable narrators when we look back on our lives. And I think the gift of lockdown was that, uh, memory and speed are inversely proportionate. That when you slow down in life, you remember more. You kind of... And, and it's a great time for kind of recalibration and thinking, "Well, what happened?" So the things that... I recently became a father. So you're thinking about childhood again in kind of this new way and thinking, "Well, what are the, what are the things you would want for your child? What would you want to give them?" And also, what were those key moments where you get to decide who you are? And I think that the key bits in my childhood were the moments where you become aware you are a story you tell yourself. So I moved schools when I was 16. And I was kind of, not a tearaway, but I was in trouble and I was messing around and I was with a, uh, a f- a fairly rough crew. Uh, and I switched schools and told a different story. Not to be Machiavellian. You just kind of arrived at the new school and went, "Well, I guess, I guess maybe no one, no one knows me here. I could just be whoever I want to be." And you become aware of how, not consciously, but, uh, even at that early age, aware that you're not a noun, you're a verb. You're a doing thing, and you can do things differently and you can do better. And then so th- that lesson obviously that you then forget that. (laughs) Uh, and you don't make good on that again for a while. So I was kind of in my mid-twenties when the next big kind of sea change of going, "Right, I'm gonna leave, uh, a job working for someone and go on an adventure."

Steven Bartlett 5:08 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 5:08 And it was... I mean, for me, that kind of mid-twenties thing was, it's not childhood, but it feels like even at 25, I was, um, i- in an archetypical way still a child, because I was living my life for someone else. I hadn't really taken the reins yet. I hadn't really made a decision until I was in my mid-twenties. So it felt like to me, I was, like, a big kid when I was 25. And then suddenly at 26, yo ho ho, a pirate's life for me.

Steven Bartlett 5:35 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 5:35 I just, I fucked off and joined the circus. I became a comedian and started leading my own life in a way that I think... I mean, part of the reason for the book is I think a lot of people aspire to that. A lot of people want to, um, w- wanna find their purpose and they want to, they want to pursue it. And, you know, it's very sad. A lot of people don't get to do either.

Steven Bartlett 5:56 And when you changed school at 16 years old and you talk about you were able to kind of shed this identity that that school and environment and the teachers there had given you...

Jimmy Carr 6:03 Well, I think you've got baggage, haven't you? When you're... Even when you're 16, you got baggage. You go to sixth form and you're, oh, you're the tearaway kid. You're gonna do, like, you're gonna do...... you know this well in your exams. It's, it's a, um, your past indicates where your future's gonna go, and it doesn't have to be that way. At some stage, you just have to, you, you cut those apron strings, or you cut with the past and go, "No, I could be academic." You know, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm very dyslexic, and I didn't really learn to read and write until I was about maybe 10 or 11 with any level of proficiency, and then I managed to get myself to Cambridge. And part of that is like a- a force of will. You just go, "Right, I'm gonna... I'll do that. I'll figure out how to do it. I'll figure out what the code is." And often, I think it's that thing of, like, the thing that comics do incredibly well... I talk about like, the superpowers of comedians, what comedians do brilliantly, is they're great at pat- pattern recognition. And that strikes me as like the most important thing in life for humans, is pattern recognition. Well, that, that kinda works like that. How do you write an A-grade essay? It's not about knowing about history. It's about knowing the structure of what that essay looks like. And so you kind of lift the structure and go, "Right, well, I'll just... I'll- I'll- I'll write to that formula"-

Steven Bartlett 7:13 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 7:14 ... "cracking the code on stuff." And I think at every level, you're trying to crack new codes, you're trying to get better at stuff.

Steven Bartlett 7:20 And, and d'you think, if you go back to that, that changing schools scenario again, you were given this identity, and that identity came with a set of, like, implicit instructions on who you were, which we then all, for some reason, subconsciously believe and then obey, and then we start fulfilling?

Jimmy Carr 7:36 100%. I mean, a hun... I think the, the, the things that dictate our lives are our beliefs. Your, your life is as good as you, you believe it's gonna be. I think... I'm a real advocate that disposition is more important than position, and 95% of life is how you look at it and 5% is what happens to you. So, the idea that you go, "What, what are you gonna believe?" Well, most of our beliefs, the, the beliefs that really affect us, are the, um, presuppositions that we make. We don't even think about them. We just think it's, "Oh, I'm not the kinda person that does that. I'm not the kinda person, 'cause I'm not from that background," or, "I'm not, I'm not from showbiz, I don't know anyone in showbiz so I'm never gonna be in showbiz." And then you allow yourself at some stage, you go, "Well, fuck that, I'm gonna allow myself to dream or to, to, uh, to try and be more than."

Steven Bartlett 8:19 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 8:20 But, you know, the premise of the book kind of is there's nothing special about me. It was not preordained that I was gonna be a successful comedian touring the world and being on TV. That was not like a lock. I don't have a, uh, uh, irrefutable talent. I just, I knew what I wanted to do and, you know, "What do you want?" being the key question in life. And then I pursued it-

Steven Bartlett 8:42 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 8:42 ... kinda doggedly, because e- I, I found my purpose, and that strikes me as something that's, um, a- achievable. Not, you know... I'm not suggesting everyone goes out and becomes a comedian, but I want better lives for everyone.

Steven Bartlett 8:56 I read, um, I read that you said you spent a lot of time cheering your mother up.

Jimmy Carr 9:05 Yeah, I think most comics... I mean, the cliché is the comedian is depressed, right?

Steven Bartlett 9:09 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 9:09 That's the go to. And it's such a pleasing irony. Why wouldn't it be? Because you go, oh, yeah, they, you know, he makes us laugh, but, uh, he's really down. You know the old, um-

Steven Bartlett 9:19 Yeah,

Narrator 9:19 I forgot about that.

Jimmy Carr 9:20 ... you know the old story... There's an old joke about a, a guy's like super depressed, like he's gonna kill himself, he's really down, and he goes to see a psychiatrist. And the psychiatrist says, "Well, you need to, you know, you need to cheer up. Grimaldi is in town, the great c- clown. Grimaldi is in town. He's the greatest clown the world has ever seen. He's hil- I saw him last w- he's hilarious. You won't even be able to breathe 'cause you'll be laughing so much and you'll forget your worries and you'll just be happy again." And the guy goes, "But I am Grimaldi."

Steven Bartlett 9:51 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 9:52 It's a great old joke about, you know, it's like, okay, tears of a clown thing. I think it's parents. I think my mother was... If you talk to comedians, you'll talk to a lot of comedians on this podcast, right? So, I think the question to ask is which parent was sick. It, it tends to be, you know, one of them, and it tends to be either physical or mental with my, my mother was depressed. You don't know that when you're a kid. You just, you know something isn't right. You know you have to, the atmosphere has to be changed.

Steven Bartlett 10:18 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 10:18 So you become very good at, um, at changing people's states-

Steven Bartlett 10:22 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 10:22 ... and then that becomes your job. You lean into that. That becomes a very important thing that you place a lot of value on. Now, I hadn't put that together till I was in my mid-20s, but the idea of goi- being able to change people's states is a, it's a, it's an interesting skillset. I mean, I like to think of myself as a drug dealer.

Steven Bartlett 10:39 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 10:40 But I'll never be taken by the feds because the drugs are already on you.

Steven Bartlett 10:45 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 10:45 You've got the, the endorphins there, you've got the good shit in there, and it's about letting that out in a very, um, sort of organic, natural high of laughter. And I'm a huge advocate of live comedy because people laugh so much more when they're in a crowd. It's a, it's a social noise. It's very tribal. It's the idea of like we all belong to this thing. If you wa- you watch your favorite show on, on the phone on the bus and you'll smile, and it won't do you any good physiologically. But if you see it in a crowd of 30 people with all your friends round, it's like laugh-

Steven Bartlett 11:20 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 11:20 ... you, you cry laughing.

Steven Bartlett 11:21 I guess that's why they put canned laughter on TV.

Narrator 11:23 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 11:24 I think to encourage, yeah, to encourage. I mean, the canned laughter thing's slightly a myth, but yeah, they, they, uh, uh, they do, you know, and it does encourage you to kind of do a little bit. But it's, um, it's really about that thing of it being a tribal thing where you, we, we sort of wanna belong and laugh with something.

Steven Bartlett 11:39 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 11:40 And I, I kind of feel that as a comedian you're part of a very long tradition. There's always been comics, you know? There was comedians and then there's variety acts and then there's court jesters and then there's trickster gods. Uh, you know, Anansi and, uh, Monkey King and all these kind... All these things from our, our sort of deep-rooted culture. There's always someone saying the other-

Steven Bartlett 11:59 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 12:00 ... s- slightly outside looking in.

Steven Bartlett 12:02 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 12:03 Um, I think being an immigrant I think's an important thing with that. I mean, I don't read as an immigrant in any way, shape, or form. Just your average white guy, but, and I sound like I was privately educated. But it's interesting in the book of like people's perception of you, you have to be aware who you are-... and you have to be aware how you're perceived. They're both important.

Steven Bartlett 12:23 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 12:24 And you, uh, I think j- acceptance of that is like a, it's like that thing of, what's the first step on the journey to finding your purpose? It's like, well, you have to know who you are. You have to start with, like, there's an honesty to comedy of going, "Right, this is what I've got."

Steven Bartlett 12:36 G- going back to th- that, the first person you were, sort of, I guess, assigned to cheer up, which was your mother. What was, h- did you know at the time she was depressed?

Jimmy Carr 12:45 No, I just thought it was normal. I d- I mean, genuinely, like, and I, she was a lot of fun, and she was very charismatic, and people liked her. I sort of could see that. And then you could see, people are complexed and nuanced, and you could see that she was, you know, she didn't get out of her dressing gown most days. She didn't, sh- she wasn't engaged in a, in a, in a way that was normal. She didn't take care of herself. Um, and it's a great sadness. You know, you kinda look back and you feel a bit guilty that maybe you could've done more or ... I think even the debate now, the culture that we, that we have at the moment where people are talking about mental health and they're talking about getting help and what to do and talking therapies. It feels like there's a whole world that's open now, that maybe things might've been different if, if it had been, you know, 20 years later. But it felt like she was quite isolated and, and depressed.

Steven Bartlett 13:34 One of the things you, you talk about linking to that is the, the root cause of a lot of things, you know, mental ailments, d- depression, um, addiction, is a lack of, a lack of purpose. And it's a, uh, you know, like, hazarding a guess at what the, the causes would be, and with d- depression, um, it somewhat, bizarrely seems to be quite generational at times. Did you ever figure out or hazard a guess in your later life what caused her to feel the way she did?

Jimmy Carr 14:01 I make a lot of cases in the book for conflated words. Like, you know, words that you sort of think they mean the same thing, but they don't. There's, that's sort of a theme in the book-

Steven Bartlett 14:09 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 14:09 ... of sort of going, well, I think happiness and pleasure are different. And I think, um, uh, envy and jealousy are different. And I think, uh, depression and sadness are very different. I think some of it was circumstantial, which, which is sadness. And the s- you know, sadness is better. If you could choose between sadness and depression, go with sadness, because it's circumstantial. It's about, uh, it's about nurture. It's about what's going on in your world, who you're with, what's goi- what's happening, that's getting you down. Okay? With depression is a much more serious thing. There'll be people listening to this or watching this that, uh, that, uh, suffer with depression. It's a serotonin imbalance in the head. It's a proper medical ailment. And we never think of it like that. We never think of it like that, right? You've never told anyone with, uh, cancer, "Snap out of it. Come on. Come on. Let's snap out of it. Let's go and get a drink. Come on, cancer. Come on." But someone depressed, you've-

Steven Bartlett 15:04 Hmm, 100%.

Jimmy Carr 15:05 100% people have done that. Be like, "Come on, you're depressed. Come on, we're gonna get a drink. We're going-"

Steven Bartlett 15:09 Cheery. Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 15:09 "Uh, you got nothing to be depressed about. I'll tell you what's great." You know, uh, you do that then, and you go, it's so crazy when you stop and think about suicide as a symptom of depression, not as a thing that's a standalone. It's something, there's an epidemic of it going on and people aren't taking it seriously. It's, it's, uh, it's, I, I think comedy is a very valuable tool as well, because it lends perspective.

Steven Bartlett 15:32 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 15:33 And really, what is suicide? It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Steven Bartlett 15:40 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 15:41 It's so sad. You know, when, when you hear about young people, that's, it's just, it's a heartbreaker.

Steven Bartlett 15:47 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 15:47 And I think often that thing of like purpose is the, is the cure.

Steven Bartlett 15:52 Hmm. Do you think it, do you... Yeah. So what, now, I don't know why I'm asking you this question, 'cause these are, these are-

Jimmy Carr 15:56 No.

Steven Bartlett 15:56 ... you know, these are very complex questions specifically around mental health. But I, I, I think it ki- uh, all of these questions come from my own place of like deep, deep curiosity. Um, as it relates to, to mental health, the apparent increase in it in our society, whether that's because more people are, you know, labeling it or because they're, more people are actually going through those, um, those ailments.

Jimmy Carr 16:16 Well, I think there's, I think there is a, um, you know, if, if we take it over, you know, not a huge, not geological time, but over like a 30-year time plan, uh, what's happened the last 30 years? Well, it's the rise of the individual, right? We've all become, uh, the individuals become more powerful, and the group or the tribe has become less powerful. And that is not only a force for good. There's a negative to that as well. So people feel, their families are smaller. Um, groups are smaller. People feel like they go their own way. So we've never been more connected and felt more alienated. It's, you, we, you know, we set up to, to, to fail almost. There's a generation of people that feel like they're incredibly connected, and they have a huge number of friends online. But they have no one to talk to. And that's a, it's a, it's a, that's a difficult thing. And they don't feel maybe part of a group. They always feel a little bit other. So that's, you know, if you... There's a great book called Selfie and a great book called Tribe. I remember sort of reading them back to back and thinking, "Yeah, there's, something's going on here. And why do, why does everyone wanna go to Glastonbury? Why does everyone wanna go to a music festival?" It's not necessarily 'cause they, you know, "I love that song." Sing that song anyway. You play that song on your headphones. But they wanna feel part of something and they wanna be in a crowd with other people and feel a sense of belonging. There's, there's something a little bit, our society's unbelievably great. And I love that kind of Steven Pinker Enlightenment Now thing about, right, it's the best it's ever been. There's fucking terrible things happening, but it's the best it's ever been. I love that positive attitude. But there are serious issues, especially, I mean, it seems especially for young people, it seems like it's, um... I mean, part of the reason to write the book is I have a son.

Steven Bartlett 17:59 Your son, right.

Jimmy Carr 17:59 But also the people that come and see my shows and the people that go, "Well, I don't, I don't know what to do." And yet, you know, they're, and they come out for a laugh or whatever, and you go, "Well, I'm not, I'm the jester here. I don't have any answers, but this is what worked for me." So sharing that felt like a, um, a really, I was so privileged to be able to do that. And you think about your life and your childhood and the people that you met along the way that made huge differences with seemingly small interventions.

Steven Bartlett 18:28 Hmm.The world seems to be hurtling more and more in the direction of individualism, loneliness. I mean, the stats would back that up, that we're getting more and more lonely as we're moving online and, and you know, Facebook announced they're changing their name to Meta last week and they're, huh, you know, building the, the metaverse which we're all-

Jimmy Carr 18:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:45 ... gonna live in and-

Jimmy Carr 18:46 It's interesting how empathetic and beautiful people are one-on-one. Y- you know, if you've, you've ever met someone one-on-one that, uh, cancel culture is an interesting thing to talk about, right? 'Cause I get canceled at some stage in the next two years. It just happens.

Steven Bartlett 19:00 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 19:00 Let's just accept that. For a joke I've done online, it's already out there, it's pointless me worrying about it. But that thing of like one-on-one with people, people are incredibly empathetic and kind and there's a thing that we're doing now where we're not on a Zoom call, we're across the table from each other looking into each other's eyes having a conversation, there's an intimacy to that. There's like a, there's like a, okay, we're, we're gonna have a conversation here and we're gonna see each other's points of view and we're gonna talk about it and it's a, it, it's, there's something about this that goes back 10,000 years, like people have always done this. The online thing, you, what, what are we missing from that, with that, that immediacy? And I think the, the crisis in lockdown where people were literally locked down and shut away, it's just, it's not good for us.

Steven Bartlett 19:44 How do we change it?

Jimmy Carr 19:45 Well, I don't know. I mean, I think there's... I, I, I don't know is, is the answer. I mean, I think there's, th- the really simple shit is, is not getting done.

Steven Bartlett 19:55 For me, 'cause it feels like this big boat that's going in one direction and it's speeding up. And what I mean by that is we're actually building our lives into the digital space, which is making us more socially connected online, but more disconnected in the real world.

Jimmy Carr 20:09 There's an interesting thing going on, I mean, I, it's interesting and terrible, um, where people are... I, I sort of quote a lot in the book, I use a lot of quotes because I sort of think quotes are the truth. Like, the, it's everything else has been burnt away, there's nothing left but these six or seven words that just sum something up and you go, "That's just, fucking that stuck around for 50 years for a reason, that's just fucking true." So the, th- I think it's Eleanor Roosevelt that said, you know, "Comparison is the thief of joy," which I love because we're comparing our lives to everyone else, right? We're the classic, uh, you know, millennial kind of phrase of like you're comparing your insides to someone else's outsides.

Steven Bartlett 20:47 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 20:47 But even, there's another thing layered on top of that now where I don't know you online, but you have an online profile and you might well be jealous of yourself online.

Steven Bartlett 20:56 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 20:57 Because you look at your pictures of yourself online and you're always smiling and you're always with beautiful people drinking a cocktail on a beach, beautiful car, beautiful thing-

Steven Bartlett 21:05 Face.

Jimmy Carr 21:05 That thing of like you can't... you're disconnecting with how you feel and how you put, you choose to express yourself digitally. Um, so there, there's, it's a, it- it's an odd thing that's, that's happening. I think like feeling connected to other people and laughing with other people, I think it's... Here's how we fix it, right? It's nature and nurture, right? So oldest debate in the world, nature, nurture, what's important? Well, who fucking cares? Nature's the cards we were dealt, right? That's what we got. We got this, I got this, you got that, okay, well, all right, you win.

Steven Bartlett 21:39 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 21:40 So, so but that thing of going, the nature/nurture thing is right. You've got the nature, that's fine, that's the cards. How you're gonna play it is the nurture. And I think there's a perception that nurture is finished at 15, 18, 20, 21. At what stage do you think you're done? I'm done, off to the world now, gonna kill it. Like, it's a nonsense. N- nurture is like an ongoing process of like, and thinking about it, giving it even five minutes thought of going, right, who do I like and why do I like them? Well, I like, I like who I am with people, that's why I like them. So when I'm with my child, I like who I am when I'm a dad, I like playing that role, I like being that part. I like, I like who I am when I'm with my friend Johnny and we're chatting about music. I like who I am when I'm with, you know, my, my, my friend, uh, Matt and we're chatting about aliens or what... you know, those things and spending, finding more time with those people-

Steven Bartlett 22:32 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 22:32 ... and laughing and connecting with the people that make you happy.

Steven Bartlett 22:36 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 22:37 That seems to be the, the, the, you know, the smart thing. I mean, the, you know, I suppose there's simple shit like, you know, putting your phone away for a day. Have you ever done that? We did it on our last holiday.

Steven Bartlett 22:47 My girlfriend says you do it.

Jimmy Carr 22:48 I haven't had a holiday for two years. Yeah, but that thing of like we put-

Steven Bartlett 22:50 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 22:50 ... our phones in the... we check the phone in the morning to see no one interesting's died, right? You don't wanna miss a biggie.

Steven Bartlett 22:55 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 22:56 You know, and what, I mean, you don't wanna miss fucking Diana 2, whatever the fuck. So you put the phone in the safe in the morning-

Steven Bartlett 23:01 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 23:01 ... and then you have your day and then you check it in the evening, you give yourself the, the, the rush of, "Oh, I've got so many emails, oh my god."

Steven Bartlett 23:08 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 23:09 And, and then it's, yeah, it's interesting though of that, that feeling of, uh, decompressing and most people don't, don't have that. Not that, you know, it's not, I'm not saying that digital world is, uh, you know, a terrible thing and it's clearly the way we're going so we have to learn to, to live

Jimmy Carr 23:24 with that.

Steven Bartlett 23:25 Mm-hmm. We talked there about one half of your parental equation.

Jimmy Carr 23:28 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 23:29 Tell me about the other half.

Jimmy Carr 23:30 Mm. Well, I, you know, I've just become a father-

Steven Bartlett 23:33 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 23:34 ... and I'm acutely aware that it doesn't always work out. I haven't seen my father in, uh, 20 years, I guess, um, it's a long time.

Steven Bartlett 23:42 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 23:42 Um, and I, I don't have a, a relationship with him and listen, there's, there's three stories, m- mine and yours and then the truth. Um, but that's the facts of the matter is I don't have any relationship with my father, so that makes me, um... That's another lesson in life though, isn't it? You should go, right, if you don't have a father, don't be a dummy about it. Don't not have a father, just find a different one. Fi- that archetype is so important to our development, having a mother is, you know, when my mother died I didn't go, "Well, I guess, you know, the older female nurturing, um, archetype, I just, I guess I'll live without that." You go, you find other people that are gonna... Maybe not one other person but you find, uh, you put your team together, you put your nurture together and you, you go, "Well, I need to find those people." You need to find... I mean, I suppose I'm, uh, lucky in the, the job that I do that you have certain, you know, people are further down the road.So if you look to them as kinda mentors or you look to them as, as, uh, as people that you wanna impress and you want to, you, you know, you're aware of that, what you need.

Steven Bartlett 24:47 And, and now you've had a son.

Jimmy Carr 24:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:49 That must be a ... You know, there was two things you talked about that were really, really pivotal in recent times. One of them was the pandemic.

Jimmy Carr 24:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:56 And the other one was obviously the birth of your, of your own son. What are the, the top level, you know, shifts that have occurred in you because of those two events?

Jimmy Carr 25:05 Well, I suppose, I mean, I got, I was kinda late to fatherhood, I think because, um, I think it was, I think psychologically, I think maybe I didn't wanna be, uh, I didn't wanna be a father because I didn't wanna be my father.

Steven Bartlett 25:19 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 25:20 Uh, and, you know, so you find a different way through, you find different models. You know, I've got friends that are incredible fathers and you kinda model that. And it's that thing of like, it's what humans do. We kinda go, "Well, okay, well, I could kinda do that. I could see what he's doing there." And that's amazing. So that felt like, I mean, it's such a, I mean, everyone does it. It's like not a big deal that I've had a kid. But it, it's a big deal in my life obviously. It's like, it's, uh, it, there's a quote in the book. Aca- I love quotes. Um, "It's like having a medical procedure where your heart now lives outside your body."

Steven Bartlett 25:53 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 25:55 I kinda, uh, there's a bit of me that kind of, "Oh, I wish I'd done it sooner." And then there's another-

Steven Bartlett 25:58 Really?

Jimmy Carr 25:59 ... there's another bit of me that goes, "I wasn't ready for it sooner. I'm ready for it now."

Steven Bartlett 26:05 Interesting. My friend said that to me, he's just had a baby and he said, "Oh, I just wish I'd done it sooner." I'm thinking, "Really?" But is that, is that real?

Jimmy Carr 26:12 Yeah, but you know, it's, uh, but it got you to, to there. It's like, it's, it's f- There's a great Chinese expression, a great old proverb. "The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now."

Steven Bartlett 26:23 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 26:26 They're pretty wise, those Chinese guys. They know what they're talking about.

Steven Bartlett 26:29 Going back to, you know, your university time, 'cause I remember, 'cause just kind of going through in chronological order. I remember I was reading about how you, you know, you, you leave the nest. You go and get, you know, you go and get a, you go to Cambridge, which I thought was amazing considering you're, you know, you were an undiagnosed dyslexic.

Jimmy Carr 26:45 I wasn't diagnosed. Um-

Steven Bartlett 26:47 At the time you were undiagnosed, right?

Jimmy Carr 26:48 Yeah, I got diagnosed at college.

Steven Bartlett 26:49 Right.

Jimmy Carr 26:49 But I only got diagnosed as dyslexic to get a free laptop.

Steven Bartlett 26:52 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 26:52 I mean, that was like, uh, I didn't really particularly care. It didn't make any odds. You just get long- longer to sit your exams. But it was, um, yeah, it's, uh, uh, it was ni- it was nice. I mean, I, I think, I wouldn't recommend it to young people because I think it's, um, Cambridge is still now very anachronistic. It's like going to college in the 1950s.

Steven Bartlett 27:10 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 27:10 It's like a time machine. It's like, it's just, it's very old school and, I mean, maybe it's changed a bit, but I don't think it's changed much. It's like living in a church.

Steven Bartlett 27:18 Yeah. I don't think they want it to change.

Jimmy Carr 27:19 It's cloistered in every sense. Yeah. So it's, uh, you know, it is what it is. But there's, you know, it's also what are you going there for? I think I went there for, uh, in an unthinking way sort of it was a, a way from something. I think I'd remembered at a very deep level not being able to read when I was a kid and kinda being in this special ed class, and then wanting desperately to prove myself. And so you kinda get there and get your degree and go, "Right, well, I never have to worry about that again." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 27:48 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 27:49 Which is dumbest thing in the world. I mean it, you know, everyone with any kind of education has educated themselves, because really-

Steven Bartlett 27:57 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 27:57 ... what do you remember from college? It's years ago. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:00 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 28:00 Like, it's whatever you're reading now.

Steven Bartlett 28:02 And fast-forward a few years, you get your degree. You, uh, get a job at Shell as a marketing exec.

Jimmy Carr 28:07 Again, unthinking. Absolutely unthinking. Like, it ju- it wasn't like it was like a binary thing of like going, I didn't make a choice when I was 16 to stay on at school. That was just like the sensible thing. "What, what's everyone doing? We're all staying at school. Okay. We're all gonna go to university then at 18. Okay, right, what's the best one? Okay, we'll try and get into the best one. If you can't get into that one, get into the second-best one. If not..." You know, so you, it's like a conveyor belt. And then after university, it was, "Right, everyone's getting jobs. Okay. I guess I'll get a job." But it, I mean, it's amazing how little thought I put into my life.

Steven Bartlett 28:37 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 28:37 Amazing really. And when you consider that I do something that is considered to be, uh, you know, very creative, you know, I write jokes and tell jokes for a living. And you go, "Oh, I ... It was the lack of imagination that kinda fucked me."

Steven Bartlett 28:51 And, and it fucked you, right? Tell me how, what were the symptoms of being fucked by that?

Jimmy Carr 28:55 Well, I think it was the, the, uh, it was, uh, again sadness, not depression, but in my mid-20s just thinking, "Is this it? Is this all there is?" It felt like it was a trudge. I didn't have any purpose. I was, um, working to live, not living to work. And I think it's not, not everyone's gonna get that. Not everyone gets that break. And I'm very aware that it's not like, "Come on, dummies. Get a job that you love and get up and you're excited about every day." It's like, it's not easy for everyone. It takes an awful lot of work to find out what that thing is that's gonna make your heart sing and then, you know, you find something you, you love doing and you never work again. It's not an easy thing. But if you can, it's worth betting your life on it.

Steven Bartlett 29:37 You write about that in the book, the two adventures we all have in our lives, which is finding your purpose and obviously going in the pursuit of it.

Jimmy Carr 29:43 Well, it sounds like yours happened crazy early. Like, kicked out of school, dropped out of college, and then went, right, and started a company.

Steven Bartlett 29:52 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 29:52 Like, that seems g- And then you'd left the company by the time you were 27. You were, you were almost on to mid-life crisis I think at 27.

Steven Bartlett 30:00 Yeah, it's true.

Jimmy Carr 30:01 Which is ...

Steven Bartlett 30:02 It's, it's completely true.

Jimmy Carr 30:03 That's great though. I mean, it means you get to die at 50 and you've done everything.

Steven Bartlett 30:05 Exactly, yeah. I, yeah, yeah.

Jimmy Carr 30:06 So what was, what was the, what was that tr- 'Cause do you see, I mean, I sort of talk about quarter-life crisis-

Steven Bartlett 30:12 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 30:12 ... of being, finding your purpose and cutting the apron strings. And, and, and that's about, I think it's about responsibility.

Steven Bartlett 30:21 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 30:21 It's about going, "Oh, I'm in charge of this. I can't blame anyone else. This is all me. This is all my fault." Which should be an empowering phrase, but sounds terrible. But, "It's all my fault." The idea that, "Right, I'm, I'm in charge." Uh, and I think it's often that thing of like the expectation of parents or whatever it is, the, the idea that you're living your life vicariously through someone else, or someone's living vicariously through you rather. Is like-I d- J.K. Rowling said this brilliant thing about, where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line on taking responsibility for your life? 'Cause if a 16-year-old kid says to me, "Yeah, I'm kinda fucked up, but my parents are dicks."

Steven Bartlett 31:00 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 31:00 You go, "Oh, that sounds fair enough."

Steven Bartlett 31:03 Yeah. (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 31:03 Yeah. Okay. But if a 40-year-old says the same thing, you go, "Motherfucker, please. Come on."

Steven Bartlett 31:08 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 31:08 "You're 40." Where do you draw the line? The answer is, somewhere. Somewhere you draw the line and there'll be 16-year-olds listening to this going, "Yeah, I'm not blaming anyone for anymo- anything, I'm just, I'm, I'm doing this myself."

Steven Bartlett 31:20 Where do you draw the line?

Jimmy Carr 31:21 I think I was about 25.

Steven Bartlett 31:23 You think 25 is where you gotta take responsibility? (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 31:24 No, no, no, that's where I draw the line.

Steven Bartlett 31:25 Okay. Well, for you, okay.

Jimmy Carr 31:26 It's different for everyone.

Steven Bartlett 31:27 Okay, interesting.

Jimmy Carr 31:27 It's gonna be, it's your road to Damascus, it's your, "Oh,

Jimmy Carr 31:32 this is my one life." I mean, I think my loss of religious faith was a very important part of my, um-

Steven Bartlett 31:38 Same. Same.

Jimmy Carr 31:38 ... life. I think it was a huge thing of going, religious faith, faith for me was the ultimate in procrastination. It was about the next life.

Steven Bartlett 31:46 Yeah. And it was also, there's potentially a puppet master and a judge, so I've just gotta-

Jimmy Carr 31:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:51 ... play to this Bible potentially, or, you know, when, when... I, I was the same, I lost my religious faith in Christianity when I was 18.

Jimmy Carr 31:58 Right. I was a bit late to the party, I was about may-, you know, 24, 25, something like that.

Steven Bartlett 32:01 Right.

Jimmy Carr 32:01 Uh, it's, it's, um, and I don't view it, I don't view atheism as like a, this isn't gonna be, um, Christopher Hitchens and Dawkins.

Steven Bartlett 32:09 Yeah. (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 32:09 You know, it's not like-

Steven Bartlett 32:10 It's like-

Jimmy Carr 32:10 ... it's not like a dry, intellectual aesthetic. It's like, it's a rush of blood to the head.

Steven Bartlett 32:17 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 32:17 It's like, I've got one fucking life and this is it, and we're in it right now, and there isn't a second to waste.

Steven Bartlett 32:24 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 32:24 Let's do this. What are we doing?

Steven Bartlett 32:25 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 32:25 What am I doing? What's exciting?

Steven Bartlett 32:26 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 32:26 What's fun? What's, and, and, and kind of stand or fall, it doesn't matter.

Steven Bartlett 32:31 Yeah. When I realized that I was an atheist, after trying to convince my brothers of a Jesus and a, and a God, and then really realizing I was an atheist, I spent two years absolutely obsessed with atheism. So, Dawkins-

Jimmy Carr 32:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:43 ... Hitchens. I watched every video, every book you could read. And then I was an antagonist to, to religious people.

Jimmy Carr 32:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:49 Because it's almost like I was trying to test-

Jimmy Carr 32:51 You were still at the center.

Steven Bartlett 32:52 Yeah, it was still-

Jimmy Carr 32:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:53 And then you-

Jimmy Carr 32:53 You don't lose it overnight, so it's still-

Steven Bartlett 32:55 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 32:55 It's like, it's like people that are, you know, pe- people with, you know, "Oh, well I, I live as a, um, uh, you know, a hippie commune with no belongings."

Steven Bartlett 33:04 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 33:04 You're still putting money at the center.

Steven Bartlett 33:05 Yeah, exactly.

Jimmy Carr 33:06 You're kind of, it's still the focus of that religious thing of going, "Well I've lost my religious belief, so now atheism's my new religion."

Steven Bartlett 33:11 Exactly.

Jimmy Carr 33:12 It's like an addict never really gets over an addiction, they just get addicted to-

Steven Bartlett 33:15 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 33:15 ... something new.

Steven Bartlett 33:16 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 33:16 And I think that's why I think purpose is the thing.

Steven Bartlett 33:19 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 33:19 And I think purpose as well, for someone who's had a religious upbringing, to go, "Right, well I'm gonna fi- what's the new thing? What are the new rules for me?"

Steven Bartlett 33:27 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 33:27 "What are the rules for, what's my morality? What's my life gonna be like?" So that's, it's very exciting. I mean, it really feels like it's a, I would encourage people to kinda think about it. And for me it was just the, the basics. I don't know how you lost yours, but mine was like, so basic. It was-

Steven Bartlett 33:42 It was exactly the same. I read, I read how you lost yours, and it was, I, it was exactly the same.

Jimmy Carr 33:46 If I'm right about this-

Steven Bartlett 33:47 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 33:47 ... then all those, it's not, yeah, it's good news for me and the other Christian boys-

Steven Bartlett 33:50 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 33:50 ... but it's very bad news for Ishmael.

Steven Bartlett 33:52 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 33:53 Yeah. Fucking hell. Tariq, it's bad news for you.

Steven Bartlett 33:56 Yeah. So you, you went somewhere and-

Jimmy Carr 33:57 I went to Jerusalem, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:58 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 33:58 I went to Jerusalem and I had a look around and you go, "Oh, this is some bullshit. This is Disney." I mean, Jerusalem's one of the most beautiful cities in the world, I would encourage anyone to go there, it's, it's wonderful and I, I love Israel, but you g- you go there and you go, "This is 900 years old, not 2,000 years old. Please, this is, let's stop kidding ourselves. (laughs) This is not, none of this happened. This is Disneyland." Um, and I think there's a stage of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And then you read more when, I don't know if you've kind of done this, but you, you read about the myth and what it is and what it, you know, the, the story of Christ is interesting. It's an interesting story, but the story, the, the, the, the myth of it is interesting, not the factual character.

Steven Bartlett 34:41 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 34:42 I couldn't care less. Um, but that thing of like, what remains when everything is burnt away? That's what I get from that story.

Steven Bartlett 34:48 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 34:49 Okay, so if you burn everything else away, what's essential you? What's the thing that's left when there's nothing?

Steven Bartlett 34:54 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 34:55 That's interesting. You go through trials in life, you go through, you know, hard times, and what remains?

Steven Bartlett 35:01 And when you lost your faith, on that point, did you, were you kind of destabilized by-

Jimmy Carr 35:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:06 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 35:06 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 35:07 Unanchored almost, you know?

Jimmy Carr 35:08 Ha, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:09 Yeah. Same.

Jimmy Carr 35:09 I didn't leave my job to be rich and famous on TV. I left my job for, I don't, yeah, yo ho ho, a pirate's life for me-

Steven Bartlett 35:19 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 35:19 ... we're doing comedy, I'm doing a gig above a pub, someone gave me £20 cash in hand. That was, I mean, it was crazy. I'd had like a good job, but it's that thing where you go, the good is the enemy of the best. How much to not live your life? How much to not follow your dreams? How much do I have to give you across the table? Now, I'm saying this to you now, right, and you're, you're a wealthy man, you're an investor or whatever, so it's gonna be a high figure. But for most people, in their mid-20s, they've just left college, or early 20s, they love college, and you go, "I'll give you £35 grand, to compromise on everything and always be tired and just, um, work to my time." And people go, "Okay." That's the, the thing of like, working for someone else is, I think, that, that's the big shift, right? So the, the, my standup is a metaphor in the book. I'm not trying to get people to become standups. Frankly, I don't need the fucking competition.

Steven Bartlett 36:13 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 36:14 But the idea of going, going and doing your thing, even if it's less successful, but doing your thing, being your boss, being your CEO, great. Like I'm all about that. When people tell me they've started a little business or done a little thing, you just go, "Yeah, fucking boss." Because you, you get like serial, um, entrepreneurs, 'cause they do it once and go, "Yeah, I com-, I'm not working for anyone. I'm not."

Steven Bartlett 36:35 Let's challenge this. So when I started my business, I had many, many bosses 'cause I had lots of clients. So I've got people that can call me at 3:00 AM and just give me shit. And I think even as, you know, when I, and then I had investors as well, and they can call me and give me shit.

Jimmy Carr 36:48 But, I mean, yeah, but we, listen-Bob Dylan got to this before we ever did. We all have someone to serve, right?

Steven Bartlett 36:55 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 36:55 That's just the- the nature of life, right? So, uh, listen, I work for myself and I'm a (snaps fingers) fucking boss and making huge money. I've got an audience to serve every night. I've got 2,000 people that need to laugh for two hours, three times a minute.

Steven Bartlett 37:07 Fucking hell.

Jimmy Carr 37:08 And that's my boss, right? So I've gotta lean into, I've gotta make sure that they're happy or none of this can happen. So, we all have people to serve. Of course, that's- that's part of life. You've, you have, but you find out, you do it on your terms and your way. Great. I don't mind the call at 3:00 AM. I don't mind the audience wanting more. I don't mind, you know, that's- that's great. The travel, anything, that's all fine because I have the true north of a- of a purpose.

Steven Bartlett 37:32 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 37:34 You know, and then it's- it's the other thing on life where you kinda go... I write in the book quite a lot about money, about the idea of like, what is it? What's going on there? 'Cause it's such a powerful thing. We spend so much of our lives, we give up so much for these tokens. And it's that classic line, you know, to buy shit we don't need to impress people we don't like. It's, it, like, the- the, uh, who was it? The, it's Byron has the quote, "Money is a magic lamp." You have to know what to wish for. You have to know what you want.

Steven Bartlett 38:06 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 38:06 Otherwise, what are you doing? Like, see, it's just-

Steven Bartlett 38:10 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 38:10 I mean, we're sort of in the City of London now. There's people working in the City that are just like, they're making huge money and they're- they're buying the Rolex, but what for?

Steven Bartlett 38:18 Quick one. Um, when Jimmy got here, off camera, before we started chatting, he, uh, he walked up and he saw the Huel bottle on the table, and I went to explain to him what Huel was. And he goes, "Oh, you don't need to tell me. I- I drink Huel all the time." And he went on to explain that he has Huel before he goes up on stage because it- it's nutritionally complete, it gives him all the vitamins and minerals and energy that he needs before he goes up on stage. Um, and that's exactly why I have Huel, and that's the beauty of having a podcast sponsor that you so deeply believe in, and one that has genuinely transformed your life. I've just landed back from Indonesia. I am all go because my entire schedule, 'cause I've been away for four- four odd weeks, has been condensed into the month of November. And I am running right now at a tremendous pace to get everything in my schedule ticked off. Huel is there to make sure that my health and my nutrition is ticked off at the same time as my professional ambitions. That's the role it's always played in my life.

Steven Bartlett 39:11 Zoom me right in on that moment then. You're working at Shell as a marketing executive. There's a day, is it a moment, is it a comment where you think, "Fuck this"? And then, to go from there to comedian-

Jimmy Carr 39:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:23 ... it doesn't make any sense-

Jimmy Carr 39:25 No.

Steven Bartlett 39:25 ... to an- to an external on the planet like me.

Jimmy Carr 39:26 It doesn't. I mean, it doesn't-

Steven Bartlett 39:27 Make it make sense for me, please.

Jimmy Carr 39:29 Okay. So, I had a boss there, a guy called Mike Harth, who I recently kinda got back in touch with a little bit. So I was- I was working for Shell. I initially worked for an advertising agency. And-

Steven Bartlett 39:38 He's the one you call an asshole in your book.

Jimmy Carr 39:40 No.

Steven Bartlett 39:40 (laughs) I'm joking, I'm joking.

Jimmy Carr 39:41 No, but he-

Steven Bartlett 39:41 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 39:42 But that would have- that was good. Uh, so he's- he's the... That's a typo. Um, funny man.

Steven Bartlett 39:47 (laughs) That's a typo.

Jimmy Carr 39:48 The, uh, th- so I was working for an advertising company and then I figured out, okay, advertising is, this is bullshit. Who's- who are these people calling me, asking me for shit? Are marketing managers, right? Get into marketing. So I got a job with Shell. So I'm working for Shell and then I kind of, I'd figured out, look, I'm not happy here. I was kinda low energy. I was not the funny guy in the office. I was just like, "Oh, this is fi- this is bullshit. We're all working here for shareholder value. I could give a fuck." And, uh, I- I went, "Okay, well what's a cooler job? What's a better version of this?" So I went and did like the McKinsey Boston Consulting interview.

Steven Bartlett 40:24 Really?

Jimmy Carr 40:24 So I was like, I said to my boss, nice- nice guy, Mark, um, uh, Mike. I said, "Look, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go and try to get a job at one of these things." And he sat me down in his office and just went... "No, I can't see it. I can't see it. Just, you're just gonna have the same problem somewhere else. I just don't see it." And that was kind of enough. It was enough that he saw me as like a funny, nice guy, and just went, "Yeah, this isn't for you. You're in the wrong stream." You know? So the ladder, the analogy of the- the- the ladder that you've climbed is leaning against the wrong wall. And there's no finer, like- like ripping up your CV, metaphorically, going, "I never need this again. No one needs to know how I did in my A-levels ever again."

Steven Bartlett 41:11 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 41:11 "No one gives a fuck about my degree." I mean, maybe some of this stuff will come in handy on QI 10 years later. But otherwise, who cares? And you're just off doing your thing. And it's, you know, none of that was wasted. I mean, an education is a incredible thing. What a gift to have. Um, but it just felt like it was- it was kind of freedom. And they- they did a little voluntary redundancy thing, which was meant to get rid of the dead wood. It was meant to get rid of people that, you know, 55, 60, and just get 'em out the door so more people could come in. And I was on the management graduate scheme thing, blue chip thing. I just went, "Yeah, can..." What would I get if I left? They went, "Five grand." And I went, "I'm out."

Steven Bartlett 41:50 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 41:50 Fucking great. Not only am I leaving, they're giving me money to leave. (laughs) And I was, it- it's weird. I had like a reputation when I started doing comedy of being, um, the hardest working comic. 'Cause I went out 300 nights a year, every year the first five years. Just like was, like just on it. I was so feckless at work. It's a really good indication of if you're doing the right thing.

Steven Bartlett 42:13 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 42:13 If, like I used to put in a meeting at 11:00 AM on a Friday and another meeting in at 2:00 AM, so that I could go to a movie in Leicester Square and be back and just go, "Oh yeah, nothing happened."

Steven Bartlett 42:24 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 42:24 Just like a lazy fucker.

Steven Bartlett 42:26 Isn't that in- so interesting? I was exactly the same. My- I, my attendance in school was 30, 40%. But then, and in fact it wasn't in my business class. It was 100% in my business class. And then, when I left school, as this lazy kid that was gonna fail-

Jimmy Carr 42:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:38 ... I outworked everybody at the thing that I loved doing.

Jimmy Carr 42:40 But it, it's-

Steven Bartlett 42:41 Which was business, right?

Jimmy Carr 42:41 It's interesting, right? So it's a really good feedback loop, of like for anyone listening to this of going, "What do you find easy?" What, you know, what's your edge? That's the other thing I talk about a lot in the book. Your edge.... what's your thing, the thing that you do better than anyone else. You don't have to be the best in the world, by the way. You don't have to be better than anyone else. But what's the thing that you're good at, that you could get better at, that you could be better than you last year?

Steven Bartlett 43:03 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 43:04 That's the key thing. 'Cause take that thing, if you can find out what that is for you and then apply some hard work and time, that's your luck.

Steven Bartlett 43:12 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 43:13 Be lucky. I always say that. Like, be lucky. But that, that's what I mean by luck, luck and happiness being sort of the same in German. It's a lovely, uh, sticky phrase. Be lucky. Like, if you put that in, you're, you're buying lottery tickets every time, right? So that hard work you put into the business, it's like lottery ticket, lottery ticket, lottery ticket, lottery ticket.

Steven Bartlett 43:31 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 43:31 And hey, presto, one of them hits because you're there all the hours, working all the hours, and you're working smart. You're working at the thing you're best at. You're kind of super focused on that.

Steven Bartlett 43:43 I wanna talk to you about that point about hard luck, because that's been, um, stigmatized in our society. But before that, y- you said something which is f- you know, find that thing within you that you can be the best at, the thing that you enjoy, um, et cetera, et cetera. When I, when I say that to people, they always say to me, "But Steve, how? How do I find the thing? How do I find my purpose? Is it just I sit down with myself and make a list? Do I-"

Jimmy Carr 44:05 Yeah, I mean, I f-

Steven Bartlett 44:06 "... meditate?"

Jimmy Carr 44:06 ... I literally went through, uh, there's two books. Um, Zen and the Art of Making a Living, I would recommend to people. It's still available. And there's a book called, um, What Color is Your Parachute? And they're quite corporate, both of them. Even Zen and the Art of Making a Living is quite corporate. But it's basically, you write essays about yourself. And you, you, you... it's a workbook. It's like a big, chunky workbook. I did both of them, and it kind of... And for me, I kind of then slightly threw it away and went, "Show business, baby."

Steven Bartlett 44:32 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 44:32 But it's interesting of, like, knowing yourself. Like, who really knows you? Your friends probably know you. Ask 'em. Ask 'em what they think. It's, it's an interesting sort of process to kinda go, like... And you could be a ripe old age and this would still apply. Like, do you know who you are, how you're perceived, and who you really are, and what you feel like? Um, because it's, it's that thing where you go... And, like, those personality tests online are not dumb to do. You know, the, the, that, um, what's the-

Steven Bartlett 45:01 Myers-Briggs? What was his name?

Jimmy Carr 45:02 Uh, no, no, the, there's a Jordan Peterson one, Understanding Myself.

Steven Bartlett 45:05 Ah.

Jimmy Carr 45:05 It's like 100 questions and it tells you things. That's, that's worth... I, I had a crack at that recently and really enjoyed it. Re- like, 'cause you get the results and go, "Oh, I agree with that. Oh, so that's surprising." Well, you know, it's, it's interesting. It's almost like a, um, a, um, a horoscope. Like, everyone likes their horoscope, right? Because the, everyone's a little bit egotistical and, like, "Oh, I wonder what it says about me?" And I think those personality tests kind of, can be very, very useful for going, "Well, how are you gonna find your edge? What's the thing you enjoy? Is it being with people? Is it on your own? Are you introverted, extroverted?" That Myers-Briggs thing might lead you in a direction of going, "Well, I can't be, I'm not gonna be a salesman. I'm gonna be..."

Steven Bartlett 45:44 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 45:44 And these are jobs we're talking about, as opposed to, um, something beyond that, like a purpose, a career, uh, an entrepreneurial spirit.

Steven Bartlett 45:52 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 45:53 Um...

Steven Bartlett 45:54 People find that. So I've d- I've done the Myers-Briggs, I've done this, I've done the Jordan Peterson test-

Jimmy Carr 45:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:57 ... and it's clear that my passion is X. But I'm in that job unthinking, as you describe it, and I've got a mortgage to pay. I've got, you know, bills.

Jimmy Carr 46:07 Well, I mean, that thing of, like, I nearly fell into that trap. I was... Like, the things you own end up owning you. Like, there's nothing you can buy in the mall that you give a fuck about in five years' time. There's nothing. Like, like, in the early phase of your life, don't fucking buy anything. Because it's like, it, you know, the things you own end up owning you. Like, the payments on a sports car nearly stopped me going into comedy. Because, well, what ties you down? If I'd bought a house in, you know, the '90s when I was, you know, working for Shell, uh, it would've been a great investment and I never would've left, because you're paying that mortgage, you're doing that thing. What do you need? You know, what do you, what do you need the money for? What are you using the money for? You know, when you take away the commute and you take away the, um, the lunch that you're buying and the night out on the weekend and a couple of drinks to f- you know, 'cause you need some fun, it's, it's, it's amazing how little... When I, the first year in comedy, I made literally no money. I mean, literally nothing. First money I got was 80 pounds in cash for going to, driving five hours to Plymouth and back. But I had a little bit saved. I had this, like, 5 grand from Shell. And I was living at my mom's, uh, initially. So it was like, "It's fine, I had enough."

Steven Bartlett 47:14 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 47:14 You know that, that amazing story about, um, Kurt Vonnegut and, uh, Joseph Heller?

Steven Bartlett 47:20 No.

Jimmy Carr 47:20 They're at a party in New York and the party's fucking incredible, right? So the guy, it's in the Hamptons, right? So the guy's, he's married to a supermodel. He's got Warhols, he's got Picassos. The house is unbelievable. Like, the Wolf of Wall Street party ha- the incredible, amazing party. Everyone's there. And Kurt Vonnegut, incredible writer, says to Joseph Heller, (laughs) "This guy made more money one day last week than you made out of Catch-22," and, like, laughs at him. And Joseph Heller goes, "Yeah, but I've got something he'll never have, enough."

Steven Bartlett 47:52 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 47:54 What's enough? What's enough for you? What's, what's enough? What's the... There's two things going on, right? There's, there's safety and security, right? There's a, our caveman thing of, like, going, "Right, well, I need to, we need to be secure." That's about a bear not attacking, right? "We feel pretty secure in our worlds," right? And then scarcity is about, it's another caveman thing of, like, going, "Okay, so we need to collect some stuff 'cause winter is coming, so we need some, we need some coin, we need a little bit of gold to take care of us." How much is enough? I mean, there's gonna be a trillionaire. Next five years, there's gonna be, someone's gonna be a trillionaire. It's gonna be in the news. You know why? 'Cause a billion wasn't enough. And the millionaires and the billionaires, trillionaires, but they're working for money. The money is the, is the important thing. It's the, that's what, that's the whole center of their being.

Steven Bartlett 48:44 It's interesting, 'cause as I reflect on my childhood, I was clearly the, one of the big drivers for my success was insecurity.

Jimmy Carr 48:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:51 Broke family, Black kid in an all-white school, um, d- parents were never in the house. I'm going to school every day with fucking stained trousers and stained T-shirts and no money. So, like, this, this deep insecurity must have been im- like, sort of sp- burnt into me that, like...If you get money, Steve, then you won't feel ashamed anymore.

Jimmy Carr 49:11 It's- it's interesting. I think it's a really interesting point because as someone that lost their faith-

Steven Bartlett 49:17 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 49:17 ... um, I think fame and fortune are the secular heaven.

Steven Bartlett 49:22 Yeah, for sure.

Jimmy Carr 49:22 Like, we get rich and famous and everything's okay.

Steven Bartlett 49:24 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 49:24 There's no problems when you're rich and famous.

Steven Bartlett 49:26 That's what I thought.

Jimmy Carr 49:26 Everything's fine. Well, of course, because it is like a... if you think about like legacy now becomes the afterlife.

Steven Bartlett 49:35 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 49:35 And fame and fortune become, uh, the- the recognition of people that we don't know becomes a type of heaven. So I think that's a, it's a perfectly rational thing to- to, you know... are you moving towards something or away from something? Well, in an ideal world, it's kind of a mix of the two. And at what stage do you personally, and I think probably if I was, I'm not a psychotherapist, but I would say you need to build some ritual around it, and I'm sure you did when you sold your company or left, but-

Steven Bartlett 50:04 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 50:04 ... build some ritual, have a trip, do something shamanic and go, "We did it. We're okay. We have enough."

Steven Bartlett 50:11 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 50:12 And now focus on towards something.

Steven Bartlett 50:14 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 50:14 But that's like, that part of your life is kind of over now, right?

Steven Bartlett 50:17 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 50:17 It's like the- the- what was that thing for you? What was the-

Steven Bartlett 50:21 Trying to, trying to, trying to escape pain and get to a point of, I guess, freedom, and freedom is a very psychological thing. It's the freedom-

Jimmy Carr 50:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:30 ... from shame, freedom from not being able to, freedom from having to do things you don't want to do.

Jimmy Carr 50:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:36 And I think really freedom from shame, I think that's probably at the very heart of it.

Jimmy Carr 50:40 Oh, that's-

Steven Bartlett 50:41 I think that's what it is.

Jimmy Carr 50:41 It's very deep, man 'cause it's-

Steven Bartlett 50:43 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 50:43 ... it's that thing where you go, "I feel, um, empathetic towards the younger you." That's like-

Steven Bartlett 50:49 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 50:49 ... a tough thing to have to go through.

Steven Bartlett 50:50 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 50:51 But you go, "Kind of great. Kind of great." Look at what, look at how far you got-

Steven Bartlett 50:58 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 50:59 ... on away from.

Steven Bartlett 51:01 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 51:01 Without even the towards. Without even the amazing kind of, you know, and it's- it's like, well, what next? That's a, it's a sad story, but then you- you- you look at people that got given everything and have done nothing.

Steven Bartlett 51:13 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 51:13 Because they had no sense of purpose. They had no fire under them. They had no, I think, um, yeah, it's- it's- it's kind of an inspiring story. But then it's- it's, you know, there's no, I suppose it's like what- what's gonna motivate you next?

Jimmy Carr 51:31 What's gonna be the thing that you go-

Steven Bartlett 51:33 And this is-

Jimmy Carr 51:33 ... "What do I wanna do?"

Steven Bartlett 51:34 And this is exactly it. So you think about how important purpose is for people to feel stabilized and fulfilled, et cetera, as we've talked about earlier, and then you think about these people that are, they're striving for a million, a billion, a trillion.

Jimmy Carr 51:47 Well, think about what a midlife crisis is, right? So I talk a lot about midlife crisis in the book, and you go, well, midlife crisis is someone that's found their purpose and they've done their thing and then they've gone, "Is this it?"

Steven Bartlett 51:58 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 51:58 "Is this it?" And then they want something like excitement. So what do they buy? Sports car. Is it exciting? I don't fucking know. I mean, maybe. Maybe if you're super into cars, I guess it's good, but like there aren't, it's all advertising speaks to this, right? I know I'm right 'cause all advertising ever is about, it's no longer about the functionality of the product. It's about the, well, what- what- what do you want? You wanna- you wanna feel like a-

Steven Bartlett 52:21 Self-esteem.

Jimmy Carr 52:22 Like... Self-esteem? Great. Rolls-Royce. You want excitement? We got Ferraris for you.

Steven Bartlett 52:26 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 52:26 You wanna get your dicks out? We got a Porsche. Whatever the thing is-

Steven Bartlett 52:29 Lamborghinis.

Jimmy Carr 52:29 ... the, the, you know, you got that, that- that kind of there's a different one, and they're playing on different emotions. And I think being aware of, I mean, I come back to it all the time, what do you want is the fundamental question. Like, in any s- scenario, when you sit down to eat, what do you want? What do you want from life? What- what do you want? What's- what's the thing that you want? And often it's-

Steven Bartlett 52:52 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 52:53 It's often asking that question multiple times because the first answer tends to be-

Steven Bartlett 52:57 Bullshit.

Jimmy Carr 52:58 Well, I think wishing wells work, right? But they don't work when you think they work. It's nothing to... there's no magic. The magic is, if there is any, knowing what to wish for, knowing what that thing is. You know, 'cause if someone says, "I want a million pounds," you go, "You don't know what you fucking want." You want tokens for things that you might want in the future. What do you want? What are you doing? What are you trying to be?

Steven Bartlett 53:20 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 53:21 Who- who- who are you trying to become?

Steven Bartlett 53:23 I ask people this, young people specifically, this question, and they will say things that are all about external validation. So, "I wanna be," like, you know, the one variation of famous that you might see, public speaker. And you say, "Why do you wanna be a public speaker?" And really when you get to the crux of it, what they actually wanna be is they want the admiration that they think public speakers get.

Jimmy Carr 53:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:41 Because, you know, their dad didn't talk to them or something.

Jimmy Carr 53:44 Yeah. But I could- I could see that, the idea of going, I think a lot of that is like that tribal thing of going, "I wanna be recognized."

Steven Bartlett 53:51 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 53:51 "I'm in a very privileged position in that I'm famous."

Steven Bartlett 53:53 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 53:53 And I would argue that's the norm. That's the norm for the longest time in human history, that everyone knew everyone. We used to live in, what, tr- for like, 10, 10,000 years, you know, what, longer, the- the longest time we were, we were in tribes between 60 and 100 people. Everyone knew everyone. A stranger was a weird thing.

Steven Bartlett 54:14 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 54:14 And now we see strangers all the time and we act like it's normal, but it ain't. And so that desire to belong, to be famous, what- what is was ever thus. It's always been that way. There was a, there's a, you know, it was in ancient Rome, people wanted to be famous and wanted to be adored and wanted to be... That's like a, it's valid, and- and, you know, how do you deal with that? How do you-

Steven Bartlett 54:34 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 54:34 How do you get that thing? And if- if it helps them strive, I think, like I make a real distinction between jealousy and envy in- in the book, and I talk about jealousy being bad. I don't want you to have that. I don't want you to have that. I don't necessarily want it, but I don't want you to have it. Fuck that guy. He shouldn't have that. Why did he get given that? That's some bullshit. Envy's really good. Envy is like, it's what you want. It's like motivation. It's like, "Oh, that guy's, he's got an, uh, electric scooter. That looks really cool. I'm gonna get one of those." Great. You know what you, you, it tells you what you want. It tells you what the, what's the thing that you're attracted to. So I think it, like, it can be a real force for good.So that thing of, like, when you were a kid and you're looking at the other kids-

Steven Bartlett 55:16 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 55:16 ... and they're suited and booted and clean and tidy going to school, and their parents are there and you go, "Right, I'm building that for me."

Steven Bartlett 55:23 I, I investigated this particular topic in my, in my book at great length, um, but I wanna ask you the question as if I don't know the answer, because I wanna h- get your take on it. Um, I agree with everything you said, and I, I als- especially this point about knowing that you're enough now. Um, in my book, I got to a point in chapter 18 where I'm like, "How do I know that I'm enough right now, but also get the purpose and fulfillment that comes from ambition and striving for more?" And it felt like a contradiction. Like-

Jimmy Carr 55:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:53 ... I am enough, I have everything I need.

Jimmy Carr 55:55 You know what I think we're talking about here? We're talking about gratitude. It's that thing of, like, you're grateful for what you've got. You're grateful for what you've got, just the solid state. If you lose everything tomorrow, you've got your health, right?

Steven Bartlett 56:04 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 56:04 And there's people out there that don't. And you've got friends around you. Great. You, you know, that gratitude can't be stifling. You've g- and they, they're like, practicing gratitude, I mean, they've done all the statistical studies on it. It makes such a difference to your life to be grateful for what you have and to go, "Right, this is fucking amazing." Like, I, you know, the older you get, the more your friends die, the more you go, "Fuck, he n- I never got to see this, never got to enjoy that thing, never got to..." Sad. I had friend pass away recently, and you, you just, you become aware of your mortality and you're so grateful to be here and to be in this game and to be, uh, around. But that gratitude can't stop you from going, "But I also wanna go further and farther." And I think the great thing about being a comic is we're brilliant with failure. We, we made friends with failure a long time ago. We've died many times on stage. I've written more jokes that don't work than you. So many more. You may not have written any jokes that don't work. I've written thousands of them. But that thing of, like, that feedback loop of failure is so... it, it's, it's such a great life lesson to learn, because you go, "Well, look, I can fail all the time. And I'll fail, and I'll fail, and I'll fail, and I'll... eventually I'll fail so many times I run out of ways to fail, and then I'll, we'll call that success." And you kind of, you build and build, and you kind of go, "Well, what's the next thing I'm gonna do?" I'm, I'm very lucky 'cause I have a job which is, it's a task without end, and that's where I think happiness lies, in those tasks without end where you go, "Right, I'm gonna spend my time trying to be a better comic. I'm gonna try and write in a different style. I'm gonna try and be... I'm gonna try and be a GOAT. I'm gonna try and be on the Mount Rushmore of comedy." Now, I know that probably won't happen. But I've got a fucking lottery ticket and I'm allowed to try and do it. And that feels like an incredibly... that feels like a life's journey. I don't know if that answer... did that answer the question? I don't know if it did.

Steven Bartlett 57:59 Perf- perfect, yeah. Perfect.

Jimmy Carr 58:00 But then the a- the, the question was about-

Steven Bartlett 58:03 No, you did, 'cause you reframed-

Jimmy Carr 58:04 ... purpose beyond.

Steven Bartlett 58:05 You reframed my point which was, um, about knowing you're enough. You reframed it to gratitude, and when, and gratitude and ambition can co-exist. Whereas, you know-

Jimmy Carr 58:14 Yes, but it, it's a tricky one though, isn't it? Because sometimes you feel like am I being ungrateful by wanting t- more than this?

Steven Bartlett 58:20 Yeah. I, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jimmy Carr 58:21 And also, and how much of a kind of, you kind of going, "Well, jeez, I've already got a lot of stuff. Do I need any more stuff? Do I need any more..."

Steven Bartlett 58:27 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 58:27 But it's, I guess it's not about things, or people.

Steven Bartlett 58:31 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 58:31 It's about how we spend our days, ultimately. So it's not about, like, there isn't a God. No one's keeping score. There's no one from above who's gonna go, at the end of your life, "Okay, let's take a look at the stats."

Steven Bartlett 58:43 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 58:43 And in my head, I kind of wish there was.

Jimmy Carr 58:45 Someone going, "You did that many..." So what's happiness? Right, I've got a couple of theories on happiness. I think flow states are where happiness lives.

Steven Bartlett 58:54 What's a flow state?

Jimmy Carr 58:55 So if you-

Steven Bartlett 58:56 I know, but I'm just...

Jimmy Carr 58:56 If you get into a state where you lose track of time, that's a pretty good indicator. A lot of people get it with, uh, sports. Okay, so you, you're doing something that you so enjoy, you're so engaged in this activity, you forget even where you are. You might get it playing video games. I get it on stage, where I'm just in this moment and I enjoy it. I'm totally engaged and I'm, I'm in the flow. You see musicians kind of embody it on stage. Spend as much time in a flow state as you can in life. If, if that can become your job, then tremendous. That is, that's success. Uh, everything else is who, who cares? But that thing is like, that's amazing. So what's your flow state? What's the state? What's the thing you do where you go, "This is, this is my shit"? I mean, what is it?

Steven Bartlett 59:50 For me?

Jimmy Carr 59:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:52 Ah, a lot of things come to mind. One of them is, um, I've got this show that's touring at the moment. It's in the London Palladium in Fe- in February, um, and I was, well as you were saying that, I was imagining sitting in the chair on stage with, with my choir, and it, that feels like my flow state.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:06 Feels like I'm just on my own, just fucking floating.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:10 And you'll tr- you'll try and hold onto that moment.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:12 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:12 You'll try-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:13 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:13 ... and it's like quicksilver 'cause it's like the time will just float by-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:16 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:16 ... and you know you'll be there, and there's kind of a high before the high even thinking about it.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:20 Yeah. Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:20 But that thing of going, "That's next February. I won't do." You're gonna need that once a week. You're gonna need that once a day.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:26 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:26 That, more of that. Like, leaning into that edge of going, "That's, if that's where I'm happy, that's where you should be."

Steven Bartlett 1:00:33 This.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:33 This is lovely, actually.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:34 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:34 Th- I think, I think kind of there's, it's a, I think the reason sort of panel shows are so popular on TV is because this is missing from our culture. Like, this is how we should end every day.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:44 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:44 The reason podcasts are blowing up is because people desperately wanna be in a conversation. And there's something very intimate about podcasts. There's something about the long form and listening that's really, it's, it's lo-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:56 When you don't do them on Zoom.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:58 Yeah, you can't do them on Zoom. There's no eye contact. My other theory on happiness is it's expectations exceeded.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:05 Oh, yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:05 Because, listen, wha- birthdays are shit, right? New Year's Eve's a fucking waste of time.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:11 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:01:11 Amateur drinkers. I've never had a good New Year's Eve.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:13 Never. (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:01:13 New Year's Eve is fuck all. And why? Because the expectation is this is gonna be the best night ever. We're gonna, it's gonna be huge. Everyone's gonna be there. Even if everyone is there and it is a really good night, you go, "Yeah, but I thought it was gonna be amazing, and it was just..."... really good, muh. And then sometimes on a fucking Tuesday, someone goes, "I just, one, I bumped into the guy and then we went to a thing and then we ended up at a... Had a fucking great time."

Steven Bartlett 1:01:40 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:01:40 It's the, it's that thing of, like, tricking yourself into kind of just lower your expectations. Maybe a little bit less time looking at what everyone else is doing on holiday on Instagram is pretty healthy-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:52 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:52 ... and looking around trying, enjoying the little simple pleasures and, "Oh, we ordered in and the food was fucking amazing and it arrived hot. Great."

Steven Bartlett 1:02:00 Does that link to your point about comparison being the thief of joy? Because-

Jimmy Carr 1:02:03 Of course, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:03 That's-

Jimmy Carr 1:02:03 Compare and despair. Everyone's having a bad time all the... Check, check Instagram now. We're gonna feel like dummies for sitting here having a really interesting conversation. "Oh, shit, we should be fucking water-skiing in the Amazon. Ugh, we're dummies." But it's being where you're at, right? So it's-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:21 And that's raising our expectations of how our life should be going-

Jimmy Carr 1:02:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:25 ... when I see T-Timmy doing his jet-skiing and-

Jimmy Carr 1:02:27 But it's, it's, oh, the places you won't go. Oh, the things you won't do to be where you are. There's a million people you're not because you, you did this and you didn't do that. Now, you coulda gone down another road. Uh, maybe you coulda been a great sportsman, maybe you coulda been a great academic. But you didn't go down that road, you went down this road. And enjoying that and being where you're at is kind of, it's kind of important. You know, once you commit to something, it's like, y- you know, you're... It's fine. But you can't be, like, all these different... I think it's, it's overwhelming at the moment what's going on in, in social media-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:03 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:03:03 ... um, because it just feels like you're constantly bombarded by options and easy lives.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:09 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:03:10 You know, the latest kind of iteration of the fame heaven myth is reality stars. So the, the, the, there's a big difference between, again, another conflation, but being a celebrity and being famous. I'm famous, but I'm not a celebrity. I'm famous for something that I do. But a celebrity's just themselves, the Queen or a Kardashian, they're just themselves and the money rolls in and it's tremendous. You know, it's just, it's

Jimmy Carr 1:03:38 a fucking lottery win.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:41 Hard work, very pivotal to your, um, you getting here today by the sounds of it, especially in those early years as a comedian after leaving Shell. What role does hard work play in our society, um, sorry, in, in becoming a successful individual at whatever pursuit or whatever passion you're pursuing? There's a, there's probably a counter-narrative that I think has emerged in our country, maybe because of social media has allowed people to kinda converge behind that and relinquish responsibility of their situations by calling hard, referring to hard work as being a really, really sort of toxic thing. And I've, I felt that more recently. I didn't see it when I was younger.

Jimmy Carr 1:04:14 Really? I mean, let's, let's... You know what? Let's have a... Are you a gambling man?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:18 Uh, not... It depends. I mean, in life, not, not in the casino, but-

Jimmy Carr 1:04:21 Well, then let's, let's... Yeah, let's, let's put a bet on that. Let's see how that works out for them. I just don't think that's gonna bring him happiness.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:27 Which part?

Jimmy Carr 1:04:28 That hard work is toxic. Okay. Okay, don't do, don't do hard work then. Good luck, dummy. It's just not gonna work for you. That's not gonna pay out. Because what's the metric of our society? It's results, right? And I don't care how... There's two great myths in our society, right? There's one myth is talent and ideas, and there's another myth which is hard work. They're both bullshit. Total fucking bullshit. 'Cause the, the, the, uh, ideas are cheaper than table salt, right? There's, there's... Everyone's got ideas. "I've got an idea for an app. It's the Uber for..."

Steven Bartlett 1:05:03 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:05:04 Fill in the thing here. S- yeah, great. Sure, sure. It's every idea is about implementation. Every, um... Sports is a good analogy, right? So Michael Jordan, greatest of all time, right? There's no debate. He's the greatest. How much did he work? Fucking more than anyone else. How much natural talent did he have? Nah, more than anyone else. What if he hadn't worked? You never heard of him. He never would've made the team, let alone been the greatest, but wouldn't have even made the team if he hadn't trained. It's a good analogy for life of going, "Look, whatever talent you have, if you don't do the work as well, it's, it's, it's just a waste of potential." So I think it's, it's the absolute fundamental. Now, hard work and drudgery are not the same thing, right? It, it... Like, there's a, there's a working smart and working hard, and there's a difference between the two. Like, if you're, if you're working at something and it's like hard work alone won't do anything, you know? It's about what stream you're in. And, uh, uh, I suppose the extreme example would be if you're collecting, um, y- you know, recyclable metals on a favela dump in South America, work as hard as you want. It's, n- nothing's ever get... It's, you're never gonna get to that level. So you, you work hard if you must and you work smart if you can. If you can... You know, if w- anyone listening to this is already in a privileged position, in that, uh, you know, odds are Western world, doing okay, have a digital phone, that's, you're doing better than a third of the world before you even start. You know, most people don't have running water. Uh, you know, most people don't have a flushing toilet. The world's in a fucking terrifying state. So it's that thing of going, "Well, work as smart as you can. Work at the thing that you're best at." I think school teaches us maybe the wrong lesson. School teaches us a lesson about mediocrity and being all-rounders, and yet we live in a world that does not reward all-rounders. Who gives a fuck about all-rounders? If you, if you get a D in physics and you get an A in English, I say just go to English lessons. 'Cause we're gonna get you up to a C grade in physics. I'll tell you what the world doesn't need, someone who's shit at physics.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:10 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:07:10 Still, still shit at physics with no natural... So find out what you've kind of got a natural, you know, that edge thing. Find out what you have a natural ability for, what's the thing that you do best. And again, I would remind people, it's not the best in the world, just better than anything else you do. Lean into that. Like, I'm all for following your dreams if your dreams are what you're best at. And the opinions of family and friends don't count.And then, it's, it's a little bit... I suppose it's a bit tough love. It's that thing of going, "Look. Look at what your inner critic says, okay? And it won't be wrong." Look at what your inner critic says about you, walk back the cruelty, and you gotta... Okay, that's the reality. That's the starting point. That's fine.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:53 I read that in your book. And I was, I was in, like, I was laying in bed. It was actually your audio book, I was listening to it. And I, and then y- you said, "The thing about your in- inner critic," which a lot of people obviously don't wanna admit, "is their inner critic is usually right." And I remember sitting there thinking, "No, that can't be right. Let me check this." And then I started listening to my inner critic for a couple of seconds, and I thought, "No, that's right. That's right, that's right." But please expand on that idea of the inner critic.

Jimmy Carr 1:08:14 Well look, the, the, the, the idea of the inner critic is going... Look, I, I went to a, a fancy university, right? And I think Cambridge is where impostor syndrome was built.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:25 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:08:25 And there's, there's a lot of impostor syndrome in the world, right? You arrive at a new workplace and you go, "Jesus, they must've made a mistake and got the wrong CV and given me the job, and oh, cri-... Or I'm at this new college, or I'm at, I'm at this new... I'm starting this thing and I don't know what I'm doing." That feeling of, "I'm not enough and I don't know what I'm doing," is why you buy the Business Management for Dummies book and fucking read it the night before. It's what drives you to do the homework. So, I got to Cambridge and I thought, "I'm not smart enough to be here." And then I worked my fucking nuts off and it turned out I was wrong, and I was smart enough to be there and I did really well. Because I fucking, 'cause I was motivated by the, "I'm not good enough to be here. I need to work. I need to work hard." Uh, you know, you start in comedy and you go, "Oh my God, I've given up everything to be a comedian. I've got 20 minutes of jokes that work. I, I'm gonna need thousands of jokes that work, and they all have to work. Fuck!" And you get to work. W- What's the motivation? What's the thing that wakes you up at 4:00 in the morning? And you go, "I need to fucking do this. I can't rely on just being, hey, I'm just gonna wisecrack and..." You know, asking a comic to improvise an hour-long show is like asking a magician to do real magic.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:35 There's something-

Jimmy Carr 1:09:36 The work is done in the gym. By the time I get to the stage, I know it's gonna be a good show. I kn- I've tried these jokes on other people. I know we're a lock. You know, 10, 20% of the evening is about the fun that happens in that room, the