The Diary of a CEOJimmy Carr: "There's A Crisis Going On With Men!"
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,032 words- 0:00 – 2:01
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
I remember the day, I remember being at home and, and getting the news. And laughing and crying. And then it hits you. I was very, uh, very upset by it. And he was just, just so funny.
- JCJimmy Carr
You've been a fantastic crowd. Thank you very much. Have a good night. Thank you.
- NANarrator
(applause)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Would you please welcome Jimmy Carr! One of the most respected and best-loved comedians in the world, the king of one-liners. Okay. Strap in everyone. You ready? I'm gonna start teaching comedy because it teaches you how to come up with original thoughts to find your voice. You'll be chasing imposter syndrome, and it's great. You should feel it every 18 months. You learn that failure is one of the great gifts of standup comedy. And to learn how to lose gracefully, it's a good test of how much you want something.
- JCJimmy Carr
How do we know what we actually want? I love what I do now, but I often question whether I should go be, like, a DJ.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you know what? I can answer that question for you. No, you (beep) shouldn't.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know in everything you do, you think, "Oh, maybe we can make a few quid out of this." No.
- JCJimmy Carr
As a guy that's touring the world 300 days a year, what advice would you give me on how to be a better communicator?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Speak at 92 beats a minute. When you look at the great public speakers, they all seem to be hitting that rhythm of 92 beats a minute.
- JCJimmy Carr
Anxiety.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's the flip side of creativity. So, I think the cure for managing my anxiety is... Oh, hang on. The Netflix special drops today, so I imagine I'm being canceled right now.
- JCJimmy Carr
How have you come to deal with that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, the next time I get canceled, I've got a plan. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm gonna say... (laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
Congratulations, Diary of a CEO gang, we've made some progress. 63% of you that listen to this podcast regularly don't subscribe, which is down from 69%. Our goal is 50%. So, if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know. And the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you and enjoy this episode. Jimmy.
- 2:01 – 3:07
How Are You, Jimmy?
- JCJimmy Carr
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's great to be back.
- JCJimmy Carr
What have you been up to?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've been, you know, I've been around. I've been working.
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've very much enjoyed this last time and I'm kind of... I was a bit nervous coming back, because, yeah, it's a big show-
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and I, I really enjoy it. I really enjoy listening. So, I- I've given it quite a lot of thought.
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've kind of made loads of notes. And, uh, and you know, here's what I'll kick off with. I've been thinking a lot about gratitude-
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... as the mother of all virtues. And I think I'm right in saying this, I think you would give me everything you own in 25 years time to be the age you are now and as healthy as you are right now. And I think it's a really interesting meditation to think about, right, if you had a time machine, if you were 30 years in the future, if you could be this healthy and feel this good and be this age, you'd give everything materially that you own in 30 years time to be back here. And just that, just to take that in for a minute, just to take a moment to think about, wow, what... This is amazing.
- 3:07 – 8:59
Every Single Person Has Life Dysmorphia
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
What does that inspire in terms of behavioral change in the moment?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, I think it's that thing of like, I, I try and I think gratitude is such an important virtue. Um, and it's... People talk about gratitude practice, and it does take some practice. And it often takes, like, it's a, it's like a way of reframing the way that you see the world. So, I think that we suffer in the West a little bit from life dysmorphia. Do you hear a lot about body dysmorphia or gender dysmorphia? We've got life dysmorphia. A lot of people think their life is terrible, because there's kind of the, the hedonic treadmill. You get used to how great your life is. No one had a hot shower until 50 years ago. So, I try and do this thing when you stand in a hot shower. George Mack, my friend, pointed this out to me. He went, "Well, look, when you stand in a hot shower, just for a moment, just go, well, no one that you admire from 100 years ago had this simple pleasure in life."" And when you look at the world that we live in, we're, we're like, you are doing... There's been 100 billion people ever, right? We are in the top, top percentile in terms of the luck that we have had. The, the lives, like, the, the, the calorific intake that we just take for granted. The fact that our children don't die, uh, you know, in their first year. The, the modern medicine and our lives and our, the entertainment that we get. We're living like kings. And yet, life has never been objectively better and subjectively worse, because the nature of humanity is our desires are mimetic. So, we've got this thing where we, we sort of, you know, "How happy are you?" Well, it's, it's your quality of life minus envy. That's how happy you are. And it's easy to look at everyone else and how they're doing and, and not take pleasure in what you have.
- JCJimmy Carr
It's funny 'cause there's a cost to a hot shower, isn't there? And that's exactly what you're describing there, because subjectively, I think a lot of people don't feel like they are very happy. And I think objectively, if you look at some of the stats around suicidality and depression and mental health, it doesn't appear that people are any happier. So, even though we have sort of materially improved our lives, we have hot showers now, there's a cost to the hot shower in the sense that, um, maybe it's made life too easy?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well-
- JCJimmy Carr
Maybe it's made life too comfortable? Maybe we're in a comfort crisis?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a, there's a lot to be said on that. I mean, it's very, I suppose it's very tough love, but you can't have an easy life and a great character. Show, show me a trust fund kid that inherited a bunch of money, and I'll show you someone mentally tortured. It's, it's true, right? Everyone's like, your, your struggle, what, where you've come from in Plymouth, uh, you know, a, in, living in poverty to now. Having stuff isn't fun. Getting stuff is fun, right? It's not the pursuit of happiness, it's the happiness of the pursuit, right? It's, it's just, it's that thing, and it's not like, you know, the, the self-help, "It's not the journey, it's the destination." It's not either the journey or the destination. It's who you become on the journey. And here's the terrible thing about life, it's self-assignment.... like, you know, there's school and college, and then you get dropped into the, the real world at some point. And, look, and you go, "Well, you, you have to decide what you're gonna do." And you can take an easy path, and it's, it's ultimately less fun. It's short money. Or you take a hard path, and you give yourself a challenge, and it's great. And I think, you know, a lot of the times, it's that thing of, like, e- e- it's hard to do. That's a, it's, it's, life is, life is really, really tough. Those are tough things to hear, uh, and it's, it's easy for us because we're sort of on that road. But then, you know, the thing I love about this podcast is you're sort of trying to... there's so much, kind of, wisdom in it, so many stories, that you're sort of, you're giving people this, kind of, roadmap for, okay, well, make your life a little bit harder in the short term and, and, and get somewhere. And it's really, I, I didn't really get what religion was until comparatively late in life. Like, the idea that God is a proxy for the future, right? So, so, so God represents the future, so work hard now for a better life in heaven, right? So that's, it's kind of, it's the same as all self-help. Like, y- yeah, okay, so, so sacrifice the present for the future. Work is kind of the same. It's a sacrifice of the present for something better in the future. That's like, it's a, it's, it's an interesting thing to, sort of, think around, isn't it?
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That, like, what are you gonna do now? So I've got this, um, Chris Williamson, you know Chris from Modern Movie-
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He's a really good friend of mine. He's a lovely guy. And we came up with this idea. So me, him, and George Mac were chatting about what, what should you do today that you tomorrow would be happy you did? So sort of 24 hours in the future, how best to live, 'cause people sort of set, like, "Oh, well, I'm gonna do something for five years," you know, so it's th- this huge goal. But you won't rise to your goals. You'll fall through your systems, right? So that thing of, like, what could you do tomorrow, or what could you do today rather, that you'd be happy you did tomorrow, whether it's the food you eat, the exercise you take, the work you do? What did you do that- "Oh, right, I went to the gym yesterday. I feel great." Like a, a little bit of Dom's, or, "Oh, I wrote 10 jokes, and tonight I'm on stage trying those jokes. Oh, well, I'm... Oh, wha- thanks, me yesterday." I, you know, "I did something that was good." So you can kind of... time's gonna pass whatever you do, and you can give yourself gifts in the future. You can be rich, and you can have a six-pack, and you can be successful, and you can be in a happy long-term relationship with a beautiful family. You can give t- yourself those, those gifts. But that, there's some tough times in the present to give yourself that gift in the future.
- JCJimmy Carr
There's something I really wanted to ask you about is you've climbed to the very peak of your profession. Like, you really ha-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Generational talent, this guy.
- JCJimmy Carr
That's what I mean.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure, sure. (laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
It's true. It's true. You really are, you, you really have. You think about where you started off at,
- 8:59 – 12:35
What Is the Point of All This Work?
- JCJimmy Carr
sort of, 25 years old, in your mid-20s, when you decided to leave that, I think, advertising business and pursue comedy. Like, where you are now really is, must be the d- a dream you, like, never really imagined could come true. You're at the very peak of your profession. And I think at the peak of your profession, I wonder sometimes if you wonder more than other people who are still on their journey up the mountain what the point in all of this is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, I think that's, that's incredibly interesting. Okay, so there's a couple of things to unpick there. So you never feel like you're at the top of your profession because you're, A, you're standing on the shoulders of giants in whatever industry you're in. So you might think, "Oh, well, he's doi- he's doing very well. Uh, you know, he's got a Netflix special and a new tour and da, da d-" all of the, you know, all of the things. But then inside you're going, "Well, I'm as good as the next joke I write." So the, the thing that I try and do is be quite stoic. I'm trying to be, I'm trying to do less better. I'm trying to just be a standup comedian. The world ordered a standup comedian, and I'm trying to honor that, right? That's what people want, right? Go out, write jokes, tell jokes, push the boundaries. Great, that's your little role in the world. Do that. So the more I focus on that, the, the, the better it gets. More people come to the show. It's that thing of, like, uh, th- I suppose, th- the whole of the world is built on incentives, right? So you, you, you put down sugar, you get ants. You tell jokes, you deliver on a show, and people come, and they enjoy it, and then they come back next time.
- JCJimmy Carr
What'd you get out of that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, the self-actualization, I suppose, the idea of going, "Well, I do this thing that I, I very much enjoy, comedy, because it's an immediate feedback loop." It's a, it's a very lucky business to be in because I don't have to wait. Like, I don't have to discuss with someone, "Ah, do you think this joke's gonna work or not? I don't... what do you thi- do you think it's too offensive or do you think..." Ah, tell it, test it. It's, it's, kind of, it's the Silicon Valley, the, um, you know, uh, the, the dual testing. Is, is this better than this? This or this? I'm like an, an optician, like, just, "Is this? This or this, or this or this? This wording or this wording?" And the audience is a genius. The audience tell me what works. So it's, it's kind of, yeah, it's, it's, it's a joyful thing to, kind of, to write a new show and then to put something on the, on the shelf. Like, the new Netflix special, Natural Born Killer, now streaming on Netflix-
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is, is like, it's, it feels like I've given people irrefutable proof I am who I say I am. And that feels really good. Like, that's what I do. That's better than the last one. And, and last time I was on this show, I talked about wanting to write longer bits, longer form. Like, I, I've got a great fast ball, but I haven't got a knuckleball. And I wanted to try and write some different bits that maybe made some points. And I went away, and I did it. And for better or for worse, it's there, and I, I gave it a shot, and I think it's a better, more rounded comedy special than the previous one. And I, and I don't hate the previous one. But it's got really good jokes in it. It's really funny. Uh, I like it. And then the new tour, I think, will be better again. I think you can see, you see progress.
- JCJimmy Carr
And what are you chasing?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're not chasing the, the thing. It's you're, you're enjoying the process. It's, it's being. So...... I don't think you get self-esteem from the six-pack you get at the gym. I think you get self-esteem from being the kind of person that goes to the gym every day. And I don't think you get anything from the, from the show, from having done the Netflix special, but being the person that put that together is the, that's, that's the enjoyable thing. And you get, you get kinda better at it. You, you know, the light, the weight doesn't get lighter, your back gets stronger.
- 12:35 – 14:08
What Is Our End Goal?
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
I think about this with myself a lot. I look at what I'm doing in business and stuff, and with the podcast and other things, and I go, there are moments where my brain will ask myself the question, like, "What's the end goal here? Because I've got the things that I materially need, n- need to be happy. I could retire and just go chill on a boat, but for some reason I'm sort of torturing myself in many respects."
- SBSteven Bartlett
T- torturing yourself?
- JCJimmy Carr
But sometimes it's very hard.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, no, no. No, you know what you're doing? You're giving yourself a better character because you're giving yourself a challenge, right? We all need the challenge. So it's like, uh, you know, with any, with any kind of mythological story, it's the hero's journey, and you're on a journey to, to, to do something, to become something, right? And you, what's your, what are you doing here? What's your role in the world? But going and sitting on a beach isn't anything. Like, you know, there's a reason holidays are, are, are two weeks. It's so you have three days of going, "Ah, we should get back." Like, holidays should be 10 days, but somehow we, we made it two weeks, and that's great, because it allows people sort of three days of going, "Do you know what? I've gotta get back to work."
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
"I've gotta do something." And, like, that thing of, like, the top of your profession, well, you'll always be looking ahead, right, at someone that's, you know... if it's, uh, y- for you, probably Joe Rogan, you go, "Well, Joe's got the biggest podcast in the world, and what are you, number two?" And you'll c- and so you'll, you've got something to aim at. And even if you're number one, then you're gonna go, "Yeah, but radio's still bigger, so huh." Uh, like that thing of you'll be chasing something, giving yourself maybe an artificial, um, goal in the future, but it's a, it's a, it's just a, um, uh, something to point you in the right direction.
- 14:08 – 16:47
People Crave the Success Not the Journey
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
Is there a little bit of unhappiness, a s- sort of voluntary unhappiness involved in wanting to... that thing off in the future, do you think? You know, 'cause if there's... I sat with a psychologist, a psychiatrist the other day who was on the podcast, and he said, "If you live your life continually wanting, you're essentially deferring your happiness and replacing it with sort of discontent in the moment."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, this is... I mean, listen, even the worst people say great things.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Chairman Mao said, uh, "You can't smell the roses from a galloping horse." So, when you're moving at that kinda speed, you don't take any time to enjoy life, right? So, you have to just, just enjoy the moment, but you enjoy these conversations.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You enjoy the thing that you do. Now, the hard work is a lot of the stuff around it-
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you know, the travel and the, the admin or whatever, but you have to love the whole job. You can't just go, "Well, I want that bit," because in the same way that people are jealous of you, there'll be other podcasters that are very jealous of what you've got, but they're jealous of what you've got. They're not jealous of how you got it. No comedians are jealous of how I got it. No one sits there and goes, "Oh, I wish I could sit for 10 hours a day and write jokes. Oh." They'd think, "I wanna play that venue," or, "I'd, I'd love to have that Netflix special," but they don't sit there going, "Well, what pathology would you need in your head to write that many one-liners and to care that much about it? Who would you have to be to do that?" And we're all chasing something, right? I think we're chasing imposter syndrome. I think imposter syndrome's got a bad reputation, and it's great. You should feel it every 18 months. As you level up, you should feel like, "Do I belong here?" Right? Uh, uh, this show's much bigger than it was when I was last on. Congratulations, you. Why is it bigger? Well, because you pushed yourself and you worked harder, right? And now sometimes you feel like, "Oh, my God. I'm interviewing this person. Ugh." Great. Don't feel comfortable. Lovely. As soon as you start to feel comfortable, you need to push yourself a little bit further. There's a great story my friend told me. It's a very name-droppy story. Do you mind?
- JCJimmy Carr
I don't care.
- SBSteven Bartlett
All right. Brandon Flowers told me this story. So he's filming a video with Lou Reed like 10 years ago. They did a song with Lou Reed, which is pretty cool, for The Killers, and they're filming this video, and they're backstage. They're in the, they're in the, uh, the, the green room. And Lou Reed's there. He's got leather trousers on. He's got a leather jacket and a vest. He's got mirrored sunglasses. He's Lou Reed, and he looks in the mirror, and Brandon sorta sees him just, like, checking himself out, and Lou Reed just goes, "I wish I was that guy." Lou Reed's got imposter syndrome, and he's Lou Reed. There's nothing the matter with him. You know, a guy that's been a rock star and a legend for 40 years is still feeling that thing of, like, going, "I don't feel like I'm that guy." Great. That's how you should feel.
- 16:47 – 18:45
You Should Be Feeling Imposter Syndrome
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
So if you haven't felt imposter syndrome in the last 12, 18 months, you think there's something probably...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, push yourself a little bit hard. I mean, it depends. It depends what you wanna do. You can have an easy life. Some people, you know, work to live. Some people live to work. It's, it's, there's different ways of doing things. There's not necessarily... You don't necessarily need to push yourself in that way. Like, you're listening to us, and, and, uh, you know, there might be a psychiatrist listening, going, "Well, these guys are pathologically ambitious. This isn't healthy. They should just be, you know, chilling out." And, hey, maybe they have a good point.
- JCJimmy Carr
I look at your work ethic, and I just feel like I've never seen anything like it for someone who is incredibly successful. I, I mean, look at your tour dates, and I'm like, "This guy spends how many dates a year on stage?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Maybe 300 shows a year, something like that.
- JCJimmy Carr
300 shows a year?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, most people turn up to work every day, don't they? I mean, you know.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's also, most people, like, get, get your average listener to this show and go, "Okay, do you wanna swap lives?" You c- you have to work for two hours a day, but you'll be telling jokes to people, and it's joyful. It's what, what looks like work to other people and feels like play to you. There you go. There's, there's, like... That's a really happy life that people go, "Oh, my God. He works so hard," and I'm going, "You're joking, aren't you? You are literally joking." And then you go, "Ah, the tour dates." Like, this last week I was in, I don't know, what? South Africa, Paris, Istanbul, Budapest, Vienna.... what a life. What a li- 'cause really, that's the other thing about life. People don't want to live longer, they want more memories and, and really how do you get more memories? Well, it's, it's doing novel, interesting things. So if you commute to work every day, the same commute for a year, you don't have 300 memories of that commute. You've got one memory, right? But if you do different things every day, you go to different places, you talk to different people, you, you experience the wor-... That's a fantastic... That variety in life gives you more memories, more life.
- 18:45 – 19:54
I Entertained My Sick Mother
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
You pointed at your head a second ago and said, "We must be pathological in some way."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
Do you think you are?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure I'm the... I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure if... I'm not entirely sure if comedy isn't a, uh, some sort of low-level mental health issue that you can turn into a career.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, it's, you know. It's like for most people it seems quite strange to want to stand on stage and, uh, and tell jokes. (laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think it s- it sounds terrifying to a lot of people, but I find it very, very fun.
- JCJimmy Carr
Have you ever figured out why you are wired in such a way?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Not really. I mean, I suppose that thing of... It goes back to childhood. It goes back to, um, my mother was an incredibly funny, larger-than-life Irish woman. I was very, very close to her. I believe they call it enmeshed when you have, like, a very close relationship with your mother. Uh, and she suffered with, uh, depression. And I didn't know. You don't know as a kid. Your house is just your house. You think it's normal, right? So if your mum's in her dressing gown, uh, when you get home from school and she hasn't got herself together, you just think, "Well, that's what mums are like." So my whole childhood was aimed at making her laugh, especially when driving. Fun thing to do, make your mum laugh, grab the steering wheel, try and... (laughs) You know.
- JCJimmy Carr
Have you had to unpack
- 19:54 – 24:29
The Unmeasurable Stuff Is the Important One
- JCJimmy Carr
that to stop that getting in the way, whatever that driving force is, getting in the way of your adult life? 'Cause I've thought about that a lot myself. I think the things that driven me here aren't necessarily the same things that are gonna help me succeed in the next phase of life, whether it's being a father, like, I know you're a f-... You know, you've, you had a kid, I think, in 2019, um, or whether it's being in a romantic relationship. I've had to kind of really work hard to unpack things so that I can succeed in a new season.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Listen, I'm not a therapist, but here's what I would say. I think you're gonna have to make a transition from looking at, uh, measurable metrics to immeasurable metrics. I think you've got an amazing resume. You've got an incredible CV of stuff you've done and achievements and stuff you can point at and, and the, the amount of views on the website and the money that you've made and the businesses you started. Great. And I think the immeasurable stuff is b- gonna become much more important. So George Mack has this kind of theory on... We trade in life the measurable for the immeasurable. So y- you trade work for, I don't know, time with parents. Can't really measure time with parents. And it's kind of, uh, uh, eh, it's tough to lunch with your parents as opposed to the job and the thing and the work and the I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. And you only notice it when it goes to zero. So mum dies and you go, "Well, I'll never see her again." What wouldn't you give now for another meal, another time, another thing? So you go trying to find that balance in life, and I think parenting and being a father is about that, isn't it? It's about that... It's about trading the measurable for the immeasurable. Warren Farrell tells a great story. Do you know Warren Farrell?
- JCJimmy Carr
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He's like the myth of male power. I think a lot of his writing's been used by, n- nefariously by people sort of that are a bit... I don't know. Anyway, he- he's a very interesting guy and he's, he's very, uh, authentic. Um, and he told this story. I heard him tell this story. He said, uh, he said, "This guy came to me and..." Very successful man. You know, head of, head of a business that makes millions, really doing very well. And he said he was unhappy because he had worked all the way through his son's childhood, and he didn't, he hadn't bonded with his son because he'd just been away at work. And he went, went to see Warren Farrell and he's a, you know, psychiatrist or whatever, and he says, uh, he said, "Okay, what are you going to do?" He said, "Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give up my job for five years and I'm gonna be at home with my kid. I'm gonna g- I'm... Fuck it. I'm not doing any of that. I'm gonna be with my kid for five years. Just be in that moment." And he did it, and he was very happy that he did it. It was John Lennon.
- JCJimmy Carr
Wow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And no matter how important you think your job is, you're not John Lennon. You know, I'm sure he could have done great things in those five years, but you think, "Oh my God, I'm so glad he did that. I'm so glad..." 'Cause of what an incredible artist he was. He'd given us so much, and that he had those years for himself. And that's for him. I mean, h- I- I imagine his kid, I imagine Sean Lennon's very glad he did that. But he got that time and I imagine he didn't regret it. A- and his life was cut short tragically, and you think it's even more powerful when you consider that. That h- he didn't put it off. He didn't go, "Well, I'll do that... I'll d- I'll, I'll get to... I'll get to a million subscribers and then I'll do that. I'll sell a few more records and then one more tour and then I'll spend time with the family." He, he did it. Isn't that beautiful?
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm. There's a lot of emotion in your face when you tell that story.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's a beautiful story, isn't it? I mean, I could... Uh, e- when you think about it, you go, "That's kind of... That's life, isn't it?" A- and the... And mortality, I think, is something we don't think about enough. Right? I love that, uh, the Muslim, uh, uh, phrase for death. Uh, the certainty. Y- y- you know, we're, we're in this brief shaft of light between two oceans of darkness. Like everyone always thinks about the tail end, right? One thinks about what happens after you die. Mark Twain had this great quote. You know, we... (laughs) We, um... He said, uh... He said, "I wasn't alive for billions of years before my birth and it didn't inconvenience me in the least."... but this brief shaft of light's, kind of, it's magnificent, isn't it?
- JCJimmy Carr
I think so. I think it can be.
- 24:29 – 25:46
Depression
- JCJimmy Carr
This idea of, um, you know, depression is essentially thinking about yourself too much, you, last time we spoke on the podcast-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well-
- JCJimmy Carr
... you talked about-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I would say, yeah, sorry, that, that feels to me maybe a little bit too harsh because I think people suffer with depression and that's a, it's a disease, and it's incredibly serious. And we think of suicide as being something that stands alone. It's not. It's a symptom of a disease called depression, right? So it's the, it's the permanent solution to a temporary problem. You don't wanna feel this way anymore, but actually you don't wanna feel nothing anymore. Uh, you'd like to feel better. So it's that thing of, like, I know we talk about it enough, but I think that thing of, you know, thinking about yourself all the time, I think y- it just, it leads to a, can lead to a, a melancholy or sadness. I think depression is maybe a slightly s- separate thing.
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Not to nitpick, but it feels like-
- JCJimmy Carr
No. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's important to-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it feels like that's a disease-
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and there's also a lot of sadness in the world.
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you're lucky if you're sad because if you're, if you're sad, it's circumstantial and you can do something about it. You know, are, are you depressed because you have a serotonin imbalance in your head and it's a heritable trait, or are you sad because your life hasn't worked out the way you want it to work out? Well, if that's the case, the latter, you're in luck 'cause you can change
- 25:46 – 27:30
Men's Mental Health
- SBSteven Bartlett
that.
- JCJimmy Carr
It does feel like there's a bit of a crisis going on within young men at the moment, and I think your new show on Netflix shines a light on many of the difficulties that young men are facing. I, I was really excited to talk to you about this particular topic 'cause I've been trying to arrive at a position myself on why so many young men appear to be lost, and suicidality has increased, and there's, you know, these new masculine influences or masculine influencers that are really rounding up this cohort of young men.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Who, who are we talking about? Uh, Andrew Tate?
- JCJimmy Carr
The Andrew Tates of the world and others, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, Andrew Tate's interesting, isn't he? 'Cause, um, who, who made the... I think John Mulaney made the observation, Trump is a poor person's idea of what a rich person looks like.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. I've got gold taps.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I think sort of Andrew Tate is like a 14-year-old boy's idea of what masculinity might look like. Like, it's really, it's- it's... A- and, and of course, nature abhors a vacuum, and there's a real vacuum for, um, elders. Like, we now, we don't learn how to shave from our fathers. It's a YouTube video. And so you lose something in that, in that bonding. So there's a big bit in the new show where I give a young guy, an audience member, a pretty tough time. Like, we have the talk, and I give them advice on how to, uh, be with a woman, and it's... I'm not wrong about anything. It's really funny and it's really rude, but I'm not wrong about stuff. It's like, it's about consent, and it's, it's... I think it's really, it's really good 'cause it's... I've sugared the pill of the message because people don't wanna talk about it. People go, "It's obvious what consent is." Yeah, not to 17-year-old boys or girls. It's like, actually, what, what does that look like and how should that be? So it's, uh, yeah, it's a, it's a really fun routine. It's a really fun routine to perform and to write.
- 27:30 – 33:25
What Is It to Be a Man
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
What is it to be a man these days? 'Cause it's quite confusing in term... even the, the conversation around, like, chivalry and understanding, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, people talk about toxic masculinity, an easy fix. Be a gentleman, be a mensch. That's it. This is done. Be a gentleman, be a mensch. Uh, you know, a, a gentleman is never rude by accident. It's Christopher Hitchens' line. Great. I, I, I don't know. I mean, my thing about young men today, if I was gonna give young men advice, it would be get the right drugs and the real thing, right? In real life. Live in real life, right? So why... Young men are obsessed by video games, right? Obsessed. They're spending hours and hours and hours online playing video games. Why? Well, that's a proxy for career, right? Video games. You think about the levels of video games and what people do on video games, it's, that's a proxy. That's like a, uh, it's a, it's a substitute for the career that they're not having, and then they spend a lot of time, uh, you know, fapping to, to Pornhub or You- YouPorn or whatever, and that's a proxy for sex. And my thing would be George Orwell wasn't right. Our power won't be taken away from us by some authoritarian master. We're gonna give it away for cheap dopamine, and the cheap dopamine of video games and online porn and living online is, is, is getting in the way of real life. So it's risk, right? That's, that's what we're not allowing young people to do because we're, we're saying to young people, "You can't take risks in real life." We're, we're helicopter parenting. We're not giving them the freedom. How much freedom should you give a kid? As much as they can cope with, right? 14-year-olds used to be babysitters. They now need babysitters. That's not good, right? So you should allow them more freedom in, in the real world because otherwise the only place they get freedom is online and no freedom in the real world. You're not allowed to go to the park and hang out, but you're allowed to do whatever you want online. Well, that's a, that feels like a very bad social experiment. That feels like a bad idea. Yeah. Uh, it feels like we've inverted, um, Ma... You know Maslow, this pyr- pyramid, the hierarchy of needs and you go... well, food and shelter and warmth and d- d- all the... We've got all the bottom stuff worked out in our society, right? We, we kinda can't see it. We're not grateful for that because we can't see-
- JCJimmy Carr
The hot shower.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The hot shower. We can't see the third world and we can't see the people in the past having a tougher time than us, so we take it for granted, but we've worked out that stuff. They hadn't worked that stuff out 200 years ago, but they had the top of the pyramid sorted. Everyone knew who they were, they had their identity, and they knew what their purpose was. Everyone knew who they were, what they were about, and they were connected to, to the others in the, in the group. And now we're kind of free floating individuals. We kinda worship the individual as if, as if we can survive as individuals.... I always think of that thing of like there's no such thing as a baby. There's a baby in a mother, there's a baby in a father, baby in an auntie, but there's no such thing as a baby, because a baby on its own isn't anything. It's, it's dead. It's, you, it needs taking care of. We're all still babies. We all need the connections. You, you, yourself, yeah, sure, there's, there's a lot of yourself that's, that's within you but a lot of it is out in the world, it's connected to other people and it kinda, it mediates who you think you are. And that's, you know, that's, that's slightly missing from society where you kind of live online and you're kind of a self-authored thing, you're just on, on the computer, on the screen and you're not connected and you're not taking risks. Taking risks is really important.
- JCJimmy Carr
Is this in part due to the rise in atheism and agnosticism? I think we, we both, me and you, lost our sort of religious faith around the same age.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
I think sort of early-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Kinda mid- mid- mid-20s. I think it's a weird thing where you go, you can lose your... I, I certainly don't believe in the stories. There's two types of fools, right? There's people that b- take religion literally, and there's people that think it has no value. Okay? Both, both idiots for different reasons. Like it works as a thing, religion. I quite... I miss it because the reason the ceremony works isn't because God is pleased, it's because the people came together. And so I think we look for things that, that are, um, proxies for religion, and sometimes that's could-
- JCJimmy Carr
Football?
- SBSteven Bartlett
... football, it could be environmentalism, you know, because you go, "Well, I, I, I need something. I need purpose in my life. I need to feel like I'm, I'm adding value. And what a great cause, I'm gonna save the planet." It's a big thing to think about it. It's, it's got a religiosity to it, but I don't think that's the... you know, I don't think that's necessarily the answer. You know, some people do it with politics, they think politics is gonna, is gonna be heaven, they're gonna, they're gonna come up with some perfect system. Eh, eh, I think you're putting too much pressure on politics.
- JCJimmy Carr
First time I've ever said this actually, but when you just said, "I, I think I miss religion," I think I miss religion.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's nice, wasn't it?
- JCJimmy Carr
It was, it was-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's a lovely thought as well when you lose someone that you love very much, it's a lovely thought. I mean, heaven is just... it's a lovely thought. And I think in a way, in our culture, fame and fortune has replaced heaven. It's the land of milk and honey and where you can feel like your, um, uh, e- everything's okay, everything's taken care of, um, and it is good, but it's, it's not, it's not heaven. I don't believe in an afterlife, I believe in a next life. So I don't think anything happens after you die, but I think you can have a next life, a very different life. So it's interesting you're at this point of your, your life when you're thinking about, "Well, I might, we might start a family." It- it's a whole other life, it's a whole other... you'll hardly recognize yourself. You and your partner will be saying, "What did we do? What did we do all day?" No, we're not at Peppa Pig World or wherever you find yourselves.
- 33:25 – 33:52
Losing My Religion
- JCJimmy Carr
It's really just struck me that I do kinda miss religion, but it feels like when I lost my religion, I put a backpack on, a backpack full of weights on, and I think that's what the responsibility and individualism is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, for me, the, the loss of religion was a rush of blood to the head. It was like, "Oh, I, I... this is my life and I need to make good on this and I need to live it." The tragedy is most people don't have that kind of... they don't get to kind of follow their, their, their dream.
- JCJimmy Carr
When
- 33:52 – 35:19
How Do You Deal with Grief in Your Life?
- JCJimmy Carr
you were 28 years old, your mother died, who had a, you know, a profound influence on you for many reasons, but also is very much the inspiration or at least the singular biggest causal factor of your career. When I read through your story even more recently, you've undergone quite a lot of grief, even the loss of your dog, I believe, um, which had a pretty large impact on you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, I think grief is cumulative. So every time you lose someone or something, uh, and, and actually losing a pet can be... it's a weird thing because people lose pets and it's like, I don't know, the other people in the office can be a bit, "Uh, uh-huh. Okay. Oh, well, what are we doing for lunch?" It's like... can be a really affecting thing because it's not just everyone you've lost and you're thinking about mortality, but you think about your own mortality, and you think about, you know... you kinda think about... it, it takes you to a very melancholy place of like, "Uh, uh-huh. Okay." At some point, you've gotta say goodbye. And I guess you think about those things of going what are the... you know, in life, as we were talking about, the, the great... you can have great... a great resume, great CV with loads of stuff on it, but what are people gonna say at your eulogy? That's the important thing. That's the stuff that really matters, and it's a very different... it's... again, it's the, it's the, it's a hidden metric of what are people gonna say at your, your funeral, what are, what are people gonna say when you, when you pass. Uh, I don't know, I think grief's... it's, uh, it's very interesting. It's very... it is that thing of it, you know, kinda comes in waves and, you know, you don't think about it for a long time and then it, and then it hits you.
- 35:19 – 38:27
The Passing of Sean Lock
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
How have you dealt with grief in your life?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, I, I, I think when my, uh... I don't know. I think, I think I'm slightly guilty of, you know, suppressing it a little bit. I think when, uh, I think when Sean Lock died, I was very, uh, very upset by it. And you just gotta work. You just kinda go, "Well, I'll, I'll put myself in this joyful place of laughter and maybe not have to think about it as much." But it's a... yeah, it's... you know, they're gone forever. And there was something really amazing about when Sean died because people shared so much online. So you had these clips of like... uh, I remember the day. I remember being at home and, and getting the news, and laughing and crying, kind of, uh, uh, real kind of, um, cognitive dissonance of like feeling really upset, and then they'd play just all the funniest clips of Sean, like people just sending me clips, clips, clips, and he was just so funny. And that joy is kind of there. It's like... it's, it's really lovely. It's a really... like for all of social media's ills, on that day, my God, it made a difference.
- JCJimmy Carr
What did it make you realize about both Shaun and life when he passed?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I, I d- I don't know whether there's any great r- revelation in it. I think it's that thing of just, you know, enjoy e- you know, enjoy your time, enjoy the, (laughs) enjoy this because it's fleeting. I mean, all too fleeting for, for Shaun who was very young. Uh, but it's, you know, I think that, that thing of... you know, family and, and, you know, spending time with the people that you love and, and doing what you love, I think prioritizing that. It's, if you wanna meet someone high agency, meet someone that's got six months to live. I'd say their tolerance for bullshit is, is about as low as it gets. I think living your life like that is not a bad idea. It really shows you what your priorities would be. If someone said you had six months to live, well, what would you do? That's h- what you should be doing anyway.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, that's really what I'm, what I'm getting at is there's something that u- facing our own mortality teaches us, um, but unfortunately, we have t- we often learn that when we've, we haven't got a lot of time to implement it when sometimes when we, when someone close to us passes away, we can vicariously learn that message about our own mortality and w- really what our priorities should be and really how we should be living our life and really what mattered the most. And I imagine losing someone that w- was as close to you as Shaun was sends you some kind of message about priorities and life and gratitude and all these things we talked about.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. I think it's, yeah, I think grat- gratitude is a big part of it as well, that idea of kinda going, "Wow, that was, that was pretty special."
- JCJimmy Carr
You work w- you were sort of, sort of-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I might grab, I might grab another coffee.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can I grab the rest of my coffee?
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that all right? Am I allowed?
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He said, breaking with format.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I might shuffle my notes as well.
- JCJimmy Carr
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm gonna shuffle my notes.
- 38:27 – 39:12
Business Is Life
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
This is a business podcast, or at least that's how it started, and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is it?
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you, have you listened back? Because I don't think it is.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs) No, that's how it would go. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'll be honest with you. It's, it's not. This is...
- JCJimmy Carr
But business is life. You know what I mean? And they're the same thing. The sa- it's all communication, mental health, striving, progress, people, relationships. It's all business at the end of the day.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It... I mean, you are re- I mean...
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
This, I mean, I know it's still called Diary of a CEO but re- I don't think you've talked about business on this for-
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... like three years and even then, it was like a passing, "So when you started your business, how did that make you feel?" It's, this isn't, you're an old hippie is what you are.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You are, this is a great podcast but this is a storytelling podcast.
- 39:12 – 41:52
The Issue Is Young People Are Not Given Enough Agency
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
So many of, so many entrepreneurs are old hippies. I think of Steve Jobs, he was an old hippie.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
You know, and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's interesting, I think that thing of, like, uh, what does business teach people. Like, we're talking about, like, young men and, and, and kind of there's a bit of a crisis going on out there, uh, with young men. And, and listen, young women are not having an easy time either. But it's that thing of, like, the, the suicide rate, whatever, um, is horrific with young men. And you go, "Well, what's going on?" And it's agency. I don't think we're giving young people enough agency so they don't feel like they have, they have control. And really I think the thing of, like, serial entrepreneurs, like no one ever seems to hit on their first company. But it's the second and third and fourth and, but they just keep going, they go, "Well, I'm never gonna work for anyone. I'm gonna do it myself." That's kind of, I don't think we're teaching enough of that. Uh, it's a weird thing 'cause, like, teaching someone to be (laughs) a self-starter is kind of a contradiction in terms.
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it's, it ki- i- i- it kinda works, right? There's, I think we're teaching the wrong things. I've got a theory, I think I'm gonna start teaching comedy. I, I, n- uh, okay, so comedy is very new. It really, you could trace its roots back to George Carlin and Richard Pryor in the early '70s as like one guy on stage in a big theater and he's selling tickets and people are just seeing him, right? Th- now you can trace it back to the dawn of time but really the modern stand-up, early '70s is a good, good starting point. Right, so it's a very new medium compared to music and film, right? It's very new. So I sort of view George Carlin and, uh, Richard Pryor a- they're John the Baptist, right? And, and, and Jesus isn't here yet. And it's this new evolving medium. And unlike music we don't have a language yet, so we need a language of like, okay, what are the joke types and how could y- how do you, how do you write that down, how do you configure it? There's too much magical thinking around stand-up comedy, you know, the idea that, "Oh, I, I just, I just came up with it. It's j- yeah, I just..." But actually learning how jokes work and, uh, systematizing and, uh, analyzing them I think really helps. So I've been working on a book with, um, uh, Amanda Baker who helped me on my first book. Uh, we've been working on a thing together for the last couple of years trying to teach comedy and I think, I think there's a real benefit to it. 'Cause if you think about music in schools, right, we'd all argue learning music's great, right? It's a great idea, teach a kid the piano, grade three, they learn something about music and they'll appreciate music much more in life. I think comedy is much more relevant, right? What does comedy teach you, right? It teaches you you would, you learn to kind of you find yourself and you find your voice and you learn to communicate your ideas and to order them and write them down and, uh, to communicate. It's very valuable. Like, the, the great tragedy of life is most people live and die and never hear their own voice.
- 41:52 – 45:06
How Comedy Teaches You to Be a Good Communicator
- JCJimmy Carr
Everybody wants to be a better speaker, a better communicator. You know, i- it's funny 'cause I sat with a guy called, um, Julian Treasure who has I think a TED Talk on communication and speaking that did, I don't know, 30, 40 million views and he said, "I also did a TED Talk on listening. Fuckin' no one listened to it. Everyone listened to the talk about being a better speaker." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) That's g- that's, that's, that's pretty funny. Uh, the, uh, yeah, w- well no, I can imagine that.
- JCJimmy Carr
You, as a, as a guy that's touring the world 300 days a year, you must have really been able to break down the science of communication and being a good speaker that's transferrable to business, public speaking, life, sales, et cetera. What would, what advice would you give me on how to be a better speaker, communicator?
- SBSteven Bartlett
All right, okay. 92 beats a minute-
- JCJimmy Carr
... that mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Speak at 92 beats a minute. That's, uh, th- there you go. I mean, there's kind of a science behind it, and I've looked into it, but most great public speakers sort of speak in a rhythm. Uh, it doesn't matter how fast they're speaking, but they're kind of hitting 92 beats a minute, so I tend to listen to a playlist of songs that are all 92 beats a minute before going on stage. I know that sounds like madness. Uh, you know, and it's, it, maybe it is, but I think there's something about that rhythm that just the audience, that kind of, um, the proximal speed of cognition, that idea everyone kinda gets into that rhythm. And when you look at the great public speakers, they all seem to be hitting that, that rhythm of 92 beats a minute.
- JCJimmy Carr
Do you think Trump's a good public speaker?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, he's an excellent public speaker. Of course. I don't know why people would have a problem admitting that. It's, I mean, he's kind of... And he's freestyling.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
He's like, there's nothing planned, this is, this is insane. Um, yeah. It's, uh-
- JCJimmy Carr
'Cause he really le- leads into sort of exaggerated storytelling and emotion much more than facts and figures than most politicians.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, it's a, it's... You know there's a theory that this is all Gwen Stefani's fault?
- JCJimmy Carr
What do you mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, so Donald Trump was prese- uh, was hosting The Apprentice, uh, and Gwen Stefani was on, uh, America's Got Talent? Or one of the singing shows. Maybe it was X Factor, any one, one of those big singing shows. He found out she was getting paid more than him, and so he wanted to build his relevance, right? So he decided, "Well, I know. I'll run for president. I'll become incredibly relevant for, like, three months." He's a contender, he's whatever, and then you drop out of the race, no problem at all. So he hires all those people in Trump Plaza and he comes down the gold escalator and he does the speech and... Great, okay? Nothing. He then goes, and there's footage of this, he then goes and does the first Make America Great Again rally. And they've got footage of him walking up the steps and he sees, like, 10,000 people all chanting and there's the realization, "Oh. Oh, this could be real." It's kind of a, yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
I think that's, I think that's accurate.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Gwen Stefani did it.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Get her. (laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
I was, uh, the reason I was, I was talking about business is because you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause this is Dome of a CEO, it's a podcast about business.
- 45:06 – 52:38
The Importance of Taking Risks
- JCJimmy Carr
No, no, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
- JCJimmy Carr
It's... Do you know what it is? Is because you taught me last time, sort of indirectly, about something that I've now developed and I call to myself no man's land, which is that moment when you make a decision to leave the comfort and security of your identity, your professional, um, you know, endeavor, whate- whatever it is. You, you were working in marketing. And then, like I always reference how objectively insane it was for you to leave that and go and become a comedian, and I've, I've dubbed that no man's land, that sort of six to 12 months of looking a bit stupid, of losing your friends, uh, losing... You know, I refer to these five buckets in life. You have your knowledge, skills, your network, your resources, and your reputation, and when you go into no man's land, you fill the first two buckets with your knowledge and skills, but you empty the last three. You lose your network, you lose your resources often, you lose your reputation, whatever that was at the time, but you fill these first two buckets. You made that, for whatever reason, decision to leave a normal life and go and tell jokes for no money. Some people, for some reason, and I've seen consistent on this podcast, like Derren Brown who has had a great professional life ahead of him, and decided to go do card tricks on tables in Bristols for 10 years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
I don't... Wha- what is it about these people that's making them-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think they've had the realization, right? They've, they've had the Confucius moment. Every man has two lives and his second begins when he realizes he only has one. And the good is the enemy of the best.
- JCJimmy Carr
'Cause you know when people are on podcasts like this-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... that moment looks like bravery. But I, I wonder if to you and when you quit your sort of marketing job, you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, there's plenty of four o'clock in the morning, "Ugh. What have I done?"
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
"This seems, this seems crazy." Especially when you really kind of, when you break... 'Cause when you leave as well, you don't have, like, an hour of great stuff of like, that you've written. You've got, like, 20 minutes of stuff that you kinda look back on and go, "Uh, uh, uh, it's kind of joke-shaped. There's something there." But really, it's, it's insane. Yeah, but I think that's great. I think failure is one of the great gifts of standup comedy. You, you sort of make friends with failure as a standup because you write so many things that don't work. You write so many jokes that you think, "Oh, this is gonna be great," and then you tell it and the audience go, "No, that isn't anything. Guess again." And that idea of going, yeah, failure, failure is kind of frowned upon in our society. We don't let kids fail. We don't let kids lose at sports. We don't let, you know, that... It, it's, it's really silly because what you're sort of teaching them, if y- if everyone's a winner, then you don't learn how to lose, and to learn how to lose gracefully is... That's a great skill to have. Isn't it? A- and, and you kind of, you, you know, it, it checks your ego and you, you... Some- not everything in life is gonna work out for you and it's okay so you, you test it. And i- it's a good test of how much you want something. You go and have, you have a terrible gig and you're, "Well, I'm never doing that again." Or you have a terrible gig and go, "Well, you know, you, you lose or you learn."
- JCJimmy Carr
You develop your relationship with no. And I've, uh, someone said this to me the other day and it really stuck with me, that you need... You know, I worked in telesales for a couple of years and it really helped me develop my relationship with the answer no. And so now in life, I've, I think I have a much healthier relationship with the word no, because for me, in call ce- in... And it's that, the law of averages where in the call center all it meant was that I was one step closer to getting the yes. So I'd get ex- you know, you'd get m- loads of nos in a row and you'd sit there and go, "Fucking hell, this next guy's gonna buy these fucking double glazing." And I think at, uh, uh, 16 years old I developed that relationship with no which meant, meant in my head that it was getting me closer to a positive outcome. Lots of kids don't have that these, these days 'cause we shield them from no.... no, is, you know, seen as a self-esteem hit. For me, it was building some kind of muscle in me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't, I, I, but self-esteem on its own, like, confidence without competence is madness. It's madness. You, you have to give the world irrefutable proof you are who you say you are. Right? So you've, you release a comedy special or whatever, you go, "Yeah, that's me, that's what I do. The new tour, that's me, that's what I do." It's, it's irrefutable evidence, right? I am who I say I am. And I think that idea of going, taking away the, the negatives, you can't just, yeah, I mean, I mean you can, but then I think we're, I think it's very cruel. I think we're being kind on the wrong timescale to people. If you're kind, you wanna be kind to your kids, right? I wanna be kind to my kids. What do my kids want? Well, they want McDonald's and they want ice cream and they wanna watch TV and play video games. Well, okay, downstream are some fat, stupid kids. Who wants fat, stupid kids? No one. So you have to be kind to their potential, to who they're gonna be, right? And that involves, you know, broccoli and homework and bleh, boring, going on a walk, doing some exercise, bleh. Okay, but, but you're being kind later. And I think that, it's very easy to see that when you are a parent, uh, and it's hard to see that with an 18-year-old that's maybe struggling.
- JCJimmy Carr
It ties to your point about being kind to you in 24 hours, I guess.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
It's a similar thing, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, like seeing the potential in-
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in someone. Seeing the potential-
- JCJimmy Carr
In yourself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in yourself, in a child, in anyone. But in, like, in yourself, that's kind of the thing of going, "Well, you could be incredible in 20 years time." 'Cause really that thing of, like, it's, it's the, um, I suppose what's the, what's the opposite of gratitude? It's resentment. And who had the great line? Nietzsche had the great line on resentment. He said, "If you think someone's ruined your life, you're right. It's you." Like, that's a mic drop, isn't it? That's such a great line. And, you know, gratitude is the cure for that. There's a, there's a great definition of entitlement, uh, which is where you are now and where you wanna be. If you wanna do something about it, that's ambition. Where you are now, where you wanna be, if you think that's someone else's problem, that's entitlement. And I think if we're honest, there's always a little bit of that going on. Like, there's a lot of people in my industry that would, you know, their, their career isn't where they think it should be. And, "Oh, I need to get a new agent." Really? You think that might be the problem? Remember there's a great story of, uh, I wasn't there, but, uh, uh, David Tell is sort of the comedian's comedian, he's a, works out of New York late night. Uh, he's, I mean, really one of the greats, one of the, one of the most influential voices in comedy. And these guys backstage were, like, moaning about their management, and he's kind of overhearing this conversation that's going on for far too long, and he just, he just went, "Oh, be funnier." It's often very simple, that stoic thing of going, "What's the thing you're meant to be doing? Just do that." I'm not sure I approve of portfolio sort of, uh, working. The idea of having lots of different things that you do. Because really, you're gonna do comedy part-time? What, are you gonna do half comedy and half novel writing? Oh, so you're gonna compete... I'm doing it 100% of the time, and you think you can compete 50% of the time? All the best. Let's see how you do.
- JCJimmy Carr
You're never gonna get to the top of the pyramid doing it 50% of the time, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
And there'll probably be a lot of resentment, as you say, and entitlement.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Be, you know, be a, be a specialist.
- 52:38 – 55:31
How To Deal with Rejection
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
It's one of the favorite parts of my previous conversation that I had with you where you, where you talk about the world doesn't need more people that are shit in physics. And it really helped me understand a lot of things. I also then shortly after met Richard Branson in New York, and he's the most, you know, incredible delegator. He's not trying to get good at things that he's not good at. He's built his whole business and life on realizing what he's shit at and just handing that over to other people. Whereas so many people are fighting to polish something that they're not (laughs) so good at.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I think knowing who you are is quite important for that, isn't it? It's like being honest about it, like, "Well, I'm not good at that, but I can do this."
- JCJimmy Carr
It's hard to know who you are though. It's clouded by-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's-
- JCJimmy Carr
... who you wanna be.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. It's, well, yeah, it's, it's also that thing of, uh, it takes a bit of time. I'm not sure whether we're not kind of rushing people on that a little bit. I'm, I, I also often think of, like, the listeners to this show, right? So like, so, it's cer- certainly the younger ones of kind of going, "Well, do I need to know now who I am and what I want to do exactly?" It's like, no, you could, you know, try a few different things, see what you like. Because I think that thing of when you get into the stream that you're meant to be in, it just feels very easy. It's like you're not, you're not, you're not swimming against the tide. Just feels like it's carrying you along.
- JCJimmy Carr
I love what I do now, but I als- often question whether I should go be, like, a DJ or do musical theater or something. It, it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, sorry?
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do what? I can answer that question for you. There's a bit of luck. No.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, you fucking shouldn't. What, what? You think you maybe should do musical theater?
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
What?
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you having a panic attack? What's-
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are you talking about?
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
What would make you think that?
- JCJimmy Carr
I, I bought some DJ equipment and I spent about a year learning, and I thought, "I fucking love doing this."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Great. You've got a hobby.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've got a hobby. Not everything's a business.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know it's diary of a CEO and everything you do, you think, "Oh, maybe we can make a few quid out of this." No.
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Stop it. What are you talking about?
- JCJimmy Carr
(laughs)
- 55:31 – 58:44
Knowing Who You Are & What You Want to Do
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
How do you know if it isn't enough?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well-
- JCJimmy Carr
I, I wanna talk to you about quitting 'cause there's gonna be a cohort of people that listen to them. I meet them. I met a lot of them last night at a show I was doing, and they are working in finance, and they'll tell me their job, then they'll show me their hobby on their phone, and their face lights up when they show me their-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... I don't know, their papier-mache business or whatever it is on their phone.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's the great line? It's the, uh, you know, if you, if you wanna find out what you should do in life, what do you think about all the time? That's your god.
- JCJimmy Carr
What, working in the city with a shirt and tie on, like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... JP Morgan or something?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, but no one's thinking about that all the time. You know, so what, what are you, what do you think about all the time? What are you, what are you engaged in all the time? Like, if it's, if it's football, if you're absolutely obsessed by football, well, something in that industry is gonna be the job for you because you're obsessed by that and that's what you think about all the time. So the, um, the idea of quitting, quitting is quite interesting because, oh, the things that you won't do. Like, if you're gonna have an interesting life, you can't have all the other interesting lives you would have had, right? So there's all the counterfactuals of the different sliding doors that you could have done. Like, well, you know, if you're gonna be a, an Olympian, you're gonna have to give up an awful lot of stuff. Like, you're not really gonna have a childhood in the traditional sense, but you're gonna be an Olympian. Great. And if you're, if you're gonna be an academic, then you're probably not gonna be having to go to as many parties. Uh, okay, well, that's, you know, there's, there's no solutions, only trade-offs. You know? Thomas Sowell, isn't it?
- JCJimmy Carr
You have to make a lot of trade-offs because not only, you know, are you on the road 300 days a year, but you have so much opportunity. There's so many things being offered to you to do movies. Why don't you try and be an actor, or why don't you write five more books, or why don't you do, I don't know, a comic, comical musical or whatever it might be?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
Why don't you become a DJ?
- SBSteven Bartlett
DJ and musical theater, those are my two prime loves. Um, yeah, I mean, there's, there's a few. There's not as many as you would think. I don't thin- no one's banging down my door saying, "Do you wanna be in a movie?" Um, and I don't know if I'd be, I don't know if I'd be great at that. I don't know. I, I mean, listen, I like getting out of my comfort zone, and, you know, opportunities come along, and sometimes, you know, you get offered a TV show. You go, "Oh, well, I'll give it a go. Why not?" Um, but I think sticking to what you do, that stoic thing has really paid dividends. That really has paid off, and I think you have to listen to that. You know, when I see other comics, you know, mentioning no names, there's some great standup comics that were, like, absolutely amazing, and they're doing five other things now, and they've lost a yard of pace. And for me, that feels crazy. Like, you've got, 'cause f- I'm looking at it going, "You've got the best job in the world. Why are you allowing yourself to be distracted?" Because ultimately, it's gonna be hard work. You know, ultimately, I mean, people can see it, I suppose, that the, you know, something costs more. Like a, um, a Ferrari costs a lot of money 'cause a lot of work goes into it, right? There's a lot of work goes into that thing. That's, uh, you know, the beautiful, handmade Louis Vuitton thing is, yeah, is gonna be expensive because a lot of work went into it. People understand that. I sort of feel the same about shows. You go and see a show, and you go, "Wow, that really took some time. Every single line in that is brilliant. He's not wasting any time. It's n- There's no fat. It's just..." It's a lot of work.
- 58:44 – 1:02:14
Is It Motivation, Luck or Talent?
- JCJimmy Carr
When people look at you and they look at successful individuals, they think, "Oh, they just must be innately motivated in some way that I'm not."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, I do think that's, it's slightly unfair that we think about luck in a very fixed way, right? So Barbie and Oppenheimer are great to talk about with this, right? So people see Margot Robbie, and they go, "Well, she's just lucky, right? She was born. She's that beautiful, right?" She's so beautiful, people can't see how good an actress she is, right? People just can't 'cause she, she's just, like, sort of this stunning thing. And then you Oppenheimer, right? No one thinks, "Oh, he's so lucky. Born with an IQ of 170, uh, and born with a work ethic," because a work ethic is heritable, right? So he was born incredibly clever and an incredible work ethic, right? And no one thinks of him as being lucky, but they think of her as being lucky. It's a weird thing, right? That's odd in our perception of, of luck and how much is, how much is your factory settings. You know, th- this, uh, it's always, you know, I've, I've talked to, to you about this before, but it's always, like, some, some bullshit, uh, if someone's very successful. You either go, "Wow, incredible talent," or, "Oh, he worked so hard." No, always both together. Always both together.
- JCJimmy Carr
And, or like you said earlier, maybe a bit pathological in some way, which I don't know whether you'd put in the-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Again-
- JCJimmy Carr
... talent bucket or whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Again, you put, th- the pathological, the work ethic, the, the striving, a lot of that is heritable, you know? So what, what are you gonna do? I think when you, when you see luck in that way, I think you become much more forgiving of, "Mm, okay."
- JCJimmy Carr
It's quite crazy, this idea of luck. I've, I've think, been thinking a, a lot about it lately. I was reading some stories about, um, even the asteroid hitting Earth, if, if it had been a minute later, then the dinosaurs would still be here, and the story of Nagasaki and Hiroshima being bombed because one guy went to Kyoto 20 years earlier, and he really liked it, so he told President Truman not to bomb it. And if he hadn't been on holiday there with his wife, then Kyoto would've been hit b- by the nuclear bomb. And then they went over Kakuru, I think, a city in Japan, and that had a cloud, so they thought, "Fuck it. We'll go bomb Hiroshima," and 100,000 people over there lost their lives and every generation that would come lost it. You just think these tiny little things that are going on in the world at all times, kind of like this budd- this idea of the butterfly effect-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... are shaping our world, and it can make you feel a little bit powerless in some way because if I'm the c- you know, if a, if someone's holiday...... can be the difference between me being alive or dead.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
I- it's, uh, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, it's very difficult to, to, you know, we, we always, you know, think about the first order effects of what we do, not the second and third order effects.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So yeah, I mean, whoo. That's a, that's a lot to, that's a lot to take in.
- JCJimmy Carr
With this idea of luck and mind, personal responsibility seems to sit on the other side of the conversation of luck, which is how much can I control where I'm going in my life? How much control do I have? How much should I show up and fucking fight for positive outcomes?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Well, that's agency.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you should, you should strive to have the locus of control within yourself. Like so there's, there's character and there's reputation. And reputation is what the world thinks of you, and character is what you know about yourself, and your self-esteem should be largely based on your character and a little bit based on reputation. Because reputation is eh, you could, you could take a hit every now and then. (laughs) You get canceled once in a while, well, once every 18 months. Well, hang on. The, the Netflix special drops today, so I imagine I'm being canceled right now somewhere.
- 1:02:14 – 1:06:12
Being Cancelled
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
How have you come to deal with that? 'Cause as a comedian, you, you guys get it worse than anybody.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't know if we get it worse than anyone. I think we're sort of the canary in the mine. It's, it's... I don't know. I sort of view it as respectability is a prison, and the gates are open and people are desperate to be inside, right? I- I'm not a respectable guy. I tell very edgy, out there jokes, and jokes are like magnets. They attract some people. I've got a big following. I've got a lot of people that watch my shows, and, and they really enjoy it. And like magnets they, their jokes attract people and they repel people. Some people are repelled by my jokes and they think they're terrible. I'm not for everyone. I think you have to accept that. And, you know, i- it's, it's when it comes out on Netflix, when it drops, that's when it kind of the pathogen escapes the lab because people that didn't pay to see this are suddenly exposed to it. Someone puts a clip somewhere and goes, "This is... Ban this filth." Oh, okay. And so, uh, banning stuff is like I sort of view cancel culture as the new... And this isn't saying criticism isn't valid. You can criticize ideas, but you cancel people. And I think the cancel culture thing, I think it's the new book burning. It's no diff- Uh, you know, the people that burnt the Beatles' records in the '60s, how do they feel now? You feel like a dummy? I bet they feel like dummies. It's like... A- and obviously the basket of things that are acceptable and unacceptable change and ebb and flow through time, but really it's, it's, uh, you know, I'm, I'm a creature of my time. I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell these jokes, and if they get big laughs, then, then great.
- JCJimmy Carr
Have you always had this perspective, or is this something that's developed like a muscle over time?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, I think, I think there's, um, I think that adversity... I've been canceled quite a few times, and there's... I try and see the positives in life, right? So adversity is a filter, and you find out who your friends are, and who stands by you, and who's, you know, who's ride or die. Great. It turns out I've got loads of great friends. And a couple of people fell by the wayside. And great, I don't have to waste any time on them because everyone loves you when you're throwing a party, but in the tough times, you're a bit more difficult to love. And if people stand by you then, then they're friends. That's, that's, that's what it is. You know, friendship is such an important thing. It's something that we don't really think about. We think about, a lot about our partners in life and our children and that side of family. Friendship for me is such an important thing. It's such a huge part of my life. And really when you think about it, why, why does, why is comedy having this moment? Well, because comedians, it's a little bit like a friendship, right? There's, there's a, there's no filter, and really your best friend is the person you have the least filter with, your deepest, darkest, you share, you're open. And a colleague, you know, quite a lot of filter, and someone you meet at the bus stop, tons of filter, right? Comics, currently, there's no, there's no filter. You see Chappelle on stage, he's... well, it's him. Great. You see Chris Rock on stage, that's him. Like you feel connected. Lovely.
- JCJimmy Carr
There's really something in that idea of as you're saying there that there's so little authenticity and vulnerability and openness in the world that when we encounter it, we feel so connected to it 'cause it caters to the demand that we have that's not being met with supply. There's so much supply of like filter, girl on holiday in Hawaii drinking cocktail, but it, but in our sort of private and our secret lives, there's very little, um, reflection of what we think about in our private and secret lives in the world.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
So when you hear someone talking about their depression or their mental health, we go, "Oh my God, that... you know, I can resonate," or-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is this not why the podcast is so big, why comedy is so big at the moment? Because the, the gap between public and private discourse has never been wider, and we both, we're both living in that space. We go, yeah, have a, have a real conversation with someone.
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Great. And the, you know, the, the canceling thing is, is great, but really what happens? I mean, you could, you can recalibrate it and just call it free publicity, like people are talking about you more. Great, okay.
- 1:06:12 – 1:15:26
Would You Erase Your Worst Moments?
- SBSteven Bartlett
- JCJimmy Carr
There's this thing called the eraser test, which one of my guests talked to me about before, Mo Gawdat, where he said if you could go back, and he asked... I think he asked or there was a study done where they asked people if they could go back in time and erase their most difficult moment, would you press the button and erase it? And like ni- these are like really traumatic events. About 95% of people said they wouldn't. When you think about your most traumatic moments of sort of being canceled or something like that...
- SBSteven Bartlett
The best, best advice I got, um, actually was last time I got canceled I found a friend of mine who's been canceled, and he said, "Do you only got, you've only gotta answer one question. Who's Jimmy Carr?" And I went, "Uh, uh, uh, uh..." And he went, "No, who's Jimmy Carr?" I went, "Well, I'm, uh, edgy stand-up comedian." "Okay. Fine then. You haven't got a problem. It's great." And then another friend of mine just went, "Well, you need to just rightsize this." And I went, "What? What's..." And he went, "You've got to rightsize it." She said, "What's happened here, you told a joke and some people didn't like it."... yeah, that's what happened. Uh, it d- doesn't seem like that big a deal when you put it like that. And yet, in the moment sometimes, it feels, you know, catastrophic. But those hard times, you know, you wouldn't erase the hard times because, again, I would say, and it's a, it's a... You can't have an easy life and a great character. And what they're saying there by not erasing that moment is, "I'll keep my character, thanks."
- JCJimmy Carr
Anxiety. We talked about this last time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Anxiety is, it's a very interesting thing. I mean, my kind of original thought on a- anxiety was the, it's the flip side of creativity. So you have a mind that is whirring, and that's given me every gift I've ever received, right? The ability to write jokes and to, to be funny, whatever, is from that I can't turn it off mind. And sometimes at four in the morning when you've got nothing to do, that mind is still whirring, so you get involved in counterfactuals. You start to think of all the other things that could've happened that haven't happened in life. And, you know, people are not worried about falling off a cliff. They're worried about jumping. It's the- the- the madness within all of us of like, "Well, what, what could happen?" And the worst case scenario and these terrible things, and you allow that to, to get ahead of you. I think the cure for it for me at the moment, how I'm managing my anxiety, is giving myself more to do. Because I think anxiety, you're trying to solve a problem in the future now, and you can't, 'cause th- there's no problem in the now. The problem is in, in the future. So you, you're, you're kind of ahead there tryna, tryna figure out something because you... there's a demand for, um, (laughs) for problem-solving in the moment, and you don't have a problem. It's that thing of like, people don't get depressed when they go to the gym, right? If you're in the gym, you can't be anxious while you're working out because you have an immediate problem. "I've gotta lift this damn thing off my chest." You've got an immediate thing to deal with. You're in that moment, so it's hard to be anxious-
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because you've got something to do right now. So give yourself something to do right now if you're suffering with anxiety, and don't let your mind kinda drift into the future. It's kind of, I suppose it's quite sort of, um, Buddhist in a way.
- JCJimmy Carr
Is your anxiety triggered by anything?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm...
- JCJimmy Carr
Or is it just kind of a noise in the background?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I don't think it is. I think you often... I think I, I think there's an illusion that when you feel anxiety, it's about this thing. I think actually you've just got a, a level of anxiety and you will... You know, so you, if I've got nothing to worry about career-wise or show-wise or I'm not currently being canceled-
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you might worry about the environment or you worry about your kids or you worry about, you know, you'll worry about something else. So I think you just, it just, it attaches onto whatever's front of mind and you logically go, "Oh, it's anxiety about this." It isn't. It's just anxiety.
- JCJimmy Carr
Do you think people know who you are, truly? You know, I- I s- met with a CIA agent a couple of weeks ago, and he said, "We have three lives. We have our, our secret life, we have our private life, and then we have our public life." Public life is, you know, the guy in the suit on camera. Your private life might be what your wife knows, but then maybe your secret life is who you are when there's like, absolutely nobody there in your mind and in your own space. Do you think people know who you are?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think so. I think actually weirdly, um, this podcast is quite important in that. You know, going on this, going on Joe Rogan, going on Modern Wisdom and talking as myself is very exposing. Uh, and writing the book, Before & Laughter, which is kind of a, um, autobiography but also a bit self-helpy, uh, is very much authentically who I am. So I think reading the book, listening to this, this is kinda what it would be like if we knew each other, if we were having lunch. You know, for the listeners it's like, "This is, yeah, is kind of what I'm like." And then I've got an ability to be funny on stage, which is another side of me, so I think that's like, it's not, it's not inauthentic what I do on stage. It's just like, "That's who I am in front of 3,000 people that have all paid 30 pounds to be entertained. Here we go."
- JCJimmy Carr
What's the side of you that your wife might know but we don't?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, th- th- this.
- JCJimmy Carr
This.
- SBSteven Bartlett
This is y- y- yeah, you know, you, you're slightly more, um... I think on this, it's, it's very much you take down the, uh... It's not like doing a TV show-
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to publicize something. So if you go on, you know, Graham Norton, you're very much like, "Okay, well, I've got three anecdotes, and I'll get them out, and I'll try and get four laughs, and then I'll try and sniper in on the other guests and be funny." And it's a, it's very performative, whereas this is performative in a slightly different way where you're kind of going, "Well, this is kinda what I think about the world, and this is, this is what it's like inside my head."
Episode duration: 1:56:04
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