Jonny Wilkinson: Winning The World Cup Led To My Darkest Days | E131

1. 0:00 – 1:06

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      Could you do me a quick favor if you're listening to this? Please hit the follow or subscribe button. It helps more than you know. And we invite subscribers in every month to watch the show in person.

   2. JWJonny Wilkinson0:07

      I had to achieve, I had to be perfect. I guess, ultimately take on the suffering. The player of the tournament, Jonny Wilkinson! A genuine sporting legend. How much pressure has this man been under this week? For me, it was do or die on the field, so therefore, where other people kind of called it quits and threw in the towel, I didn't have the choice. Here it is for Jonny! This'll go down in history.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:31

      Was your mental health better or worse after that moment?

   4. JWJonny Wilkinson0:34

      When I was on the field in the zone, I was operating at a level I couldn't even understand. Waking up the next morning, you know, leaves you in the cold light of day. I thought there was gonna be joy here. I was convinced. There isn't. I spent my life being very fit but not really that healthy. Health is about what fitness can come out of, and unless you look after health, it's dangerous. People say, "I wish I made more of my life. Wish I'd enjoyed every moment." But that starts with health. Working on someone else really doesn't work for anyone, but working on yourself tends to work for everyone.

2. 1:06 – 16:24

   What shaped you into who you are

   1. JWJonny Wilkinson1:06

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:06

      So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music) Jonny, um, you went on to become one of the real greats in rugby, and I remember watching you in my living room as a very, very young kid on the screen-

   3. JWJonny Wilkinson1:33

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:33

      ... in awe, not just in that 2003 moment, but, but long before then. And when I think about, and when I sit here with guests that are athletes or successful entrepreneurs, whatever they might be, they sometimes, but not usually, can give me a sort of, uh, fairly accurate description of what happened in the earlier phases of life that would, would mold them to become that champion or that CEO that they later were. You're someone that is incredibly self-aware, so I was very much looking forward to asking you the same question, which is, when you reflect on the early s- stages of your life, what were the, like, defining, um, molding experiences, for better or for worse, that you would point at and say, "That's probably why, or at least that led to, in part, who I became later in life"?

   5. JWJonny Wilkinson2:14

      Um, I think the best way of answering that would be to say that in my younger days, and very young, without any, any kind of triggering events, certainly not that I can, um, remember or ev- ever, ever sort of come into contact with, I had enormous passion and some kind of adeptness for ball skills. So, if I had a ball in my hand, things just made sense. I could work out... I could, I could, in my sort of head I could have a, a, some, some sort of target, some sort of goal, something to do with that ball, and I could, I could work it out. That was part of the intelligence I had was just, I could bring those things about relatively effortlessly, and I had a real passion for exploring that it still is the case with me. I still find myself, uh, playing basketball, and, and often so much of this I'll do on my own because it's my relationship with that inner capacity I have that interests me. Not to show what I can do, but it's that sense of, I guess, being at home, and that's where a huge amount of the revelations that I have in life come from, from that kind of relationship. However, there was also another relationship which, again, without triggering event, um, I grew up with an immense sense of doom and fear about everything. So I had this incredible sort of passion and inclination towards expressing myself with, with balls and skills, and, and, and in competition as well. But the competition side was a need that wasn't a desire. The, the, the achievement, um, all that stuff was obsessive, um, but from a negative perspective. Because I had this sense of doom surrounding everything, that was my disconnect, if you like. I saw other people handling situations that seemed so simple to them, but for me, insurmountable. And yet when they looked at me with regard to, "Ah," you know, with a ball in my hand, what they thought was impossible, for me just was relatively straightforward. And I think those two sides of my path meant that I had this constant, uh, drive to just find myself in a garden with a ball in my hand. That's ev- all, all hours of the day and night most of the time. It's all I talk about, all I talked about, all I spoke about, all I did. And yet on the other hand, I had this ever-present fear that I built this, if you like, defense mechanism, coping strategy, but ultimately identity around how to somehow survive that fear. And that, that, for me, that mechanism I put in place was I had to achieve, I had to be perfect, and I had to, I guess, ultimately take on the suffering and, and live that kind of martyr-savior/warrior archetype. And as such, I found myself really, really uncomfortable with when things were seemingly going well. It just, you know, I found that horrendously difficult to handle. As a result, I would revert to that defense mechanism of creating problems if there weren't. So I, I was constantly looking in a state of kind of survival for w-... where the next problem was, 'cause I was convinced with this ever-present sense of fear that there was a threat, and it was there. And so, yeah, those two paths essentially... weaved in and out with each other throughout my entire life. But there was no doubt that my ability on the field, at times, to be in that zone, was where I felt my genius. But at the same time, the other strength I had was that, for me, it was do or die on the field. So therefore, where other people kind of called it quits and threw in the towel, I didn't have the choice. You know, the fear didn't just drop off and let me just sit down for a bit, so I could go and go and go and go.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett6:44

      When you talked about your childhood there, you said despite there being a traumatic event that had created this kind of perspective you had about, um, this sort of fear, but also this sense of real peace and home-ness. Y- you described it, when you have a ball.

   7. JWJonny Wilkinson6:58

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett6:59

      Um, your dad, Phil, was a- a rugby player and a football player.

   9. JWJonny Wilkinson7:03

      Uh, cricket.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett7:04

       Cricket (overlapping) .

   11. JWJonny Wilkinson7:05

       Cricket, yeah. Yeah, yeah, rugby and cricket, yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett7:06

       Okay.

   13. JWJonny Wilkinson7:06

       Those two things.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett7:07

       Okay. What was his influence on you? Because it's... You know, when I, when I read that he was also a sports player in his own right, um, that's kind of typically the story you, you expect to hear. I sat here with Eddie Hearn as well, his dad works in the same business. I've sat here with CEOs, their dad worked in the same business. And the interesting thing I, I, that I connected, and I'm not making any assumptions here, that's why I'm asking the question, is in the case of Eddie, in the case of, um, Umar Kamani who was at Boohoo, they describe a very similar thing, a, a real sense of kind of almost innate feeling of pressure to succeed, and they also at s- times couldn't necessarily tell you where it comes from. Was, did your, either of your parents play a role in that, in that perceived sense of pressure to, to succeed?

   15. JWJonny Wilkinson7:50

       No, c- I sort of, like I said, uh, I'm heavily into the introspective side of all this. And, and part of that kind of search now for potential is, is where that's moved. It used to be grabbing the external and trying to expand physically, you know, what more can I have? What more can... How can more people know my name? Or everything that could almost, yeah, expand my reach and, and, and presence on a physical level, now no really, no longer interests me. It's, it's how to allow my presence, you know, in that non-physical space. Um, and my sort of journey of looking into that has, has meant, you know, I've, I've questioned everything. And, you know, my, my upbringing was, was, you know, fantastic in terms of that, you know. And, uh, I had every opportunity to go and do what I wanted to do. Um, I have my brother there as well, and my parents were all sporty, but there was just something in me which had latched on, you know. And this is something I, I feel maybe it's something I brought with me into this world from a, you know, like a karmic positioning whereby I was always gonna grab things that way. I was, I was susceptible to understanding things a certain way. Um, but for me, you know, I'd, I, I sort of pushed my parents hard. Yeah, I can't imagine it was easy. My brother too, in the way that I was, I was sort of... I challenged them in ways, you know. I, I didn't give up. And a lot of that, like I said, was, well, all of the, the irrational stuff came from the need. For them, it was baffling. But, you know, they had their lives, and I appreciate that this is always the case, that people are always doing their best. And that's what I remember about our family the most is that everyone's always doing their best. And I look at everyone now and realize that, you know, people are where they're supposed to be and just giving it their all. And, and what's been so, so powerful for me is just being able to switch that interest with what giving my best means, is more of an unlocking and letting go and shedding than a what more can I grab? And, and, you know, where that path turned around is perhaps where, you know, where I felt the, the true understanding of, of what this journey's been about, as opposed to where I was looking to where did it come from, what happened here, et cetera, et cetera. It's more of a kind of, "Ah," it was just about that.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett10:16

       You said something there which some people might skip over, which is you said it might have been something you in- inherited karmically or... You know, and I, and that reminded me of something I'd, I'd heard you say previously about being able to sort of inherit generational-

   17. JWJonny Wilkinson10:29

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett10:30

       ... messages or, um, whatever that might be. Do you believe in that? Do you believe that w- we're passing messages from one generation to another within, within ourselves and that that is shaping our lives?

   19. JWJonny Wilkinson10:41

       Yeah, I, I believe that the, the role of karma is basically a memory, and it's that kind of... It's, it's the way we've remembered things. And whilst for me, exam- for example, when I'm stuck in that really physical identification of this is who I am, as in, "I'm me, I'm Johnny," and then I do have a start to my story and an end. But as I've been sort of exploring and letting go a bit more of that, that kind of physical identity of right now, I just tend to feel that it opens up a, a different understanding of memory, you know. If we're a process of that evolution, then the cells in our body have a memory that goes back a long, long way. You know, and, and, uh, that's impossible to separate, you know, where we come from from parents and where they, from their parents, from their parents, from their parents, you know. Everything is all interconnected, but we put a stop and a start on it. And it seems, yeah, one of the things I find so, so interesting when looking at that is that I'm very interested in the science side of it too and looking at the desire of science to find, you know, what it is that we're made of, and yet they keep coming up with it's nothing. And then they go to, "Well, what is it we're living in?" And they keep finding out that it's unending. And yet who we are, we seem to manage to say despite the fact it's made of nothing and it's unending, we've found a way of saying, "But we're made of this. We start here and we stop there." It just doesn't make sense to me anymore. Whereas before, you know, you live in those boundaries, what you see...... inherits those boundaries. And I think as I've released those, you start to, not so much question, but just allow for different understandings to take hold. And one of those is that, that, you know, I find it fascinating to look at, you know, I've got a young child. And I find it fascinating to look at children enter, and they're all so different. How are they so different? And then you say, "Oh, well, you know, it's, it might be to do with how the parents have behaved during the, during the, the sort of, um, you know, the, the months preceding the birth." And yes, but even then, why are the parents behaving that way? Goes on and on, and it just goes back to the same way that I still believe that we're all doing our best, but there's a part which we bring with us into this, into this space. And, you know, I feel like there is, there is nature, and there's, there's that nurture side. But that nature, yeah, but that, that nurturing's been going on forever, and it's, and it's important that we have a bias and a, and a stance. Because without it, I don't think you can have this physical experience unless there's something holding you in it. And I think that's the point, is to find out what that is and, and engage with it, embrace it, and enjoy it.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett13:26

       And what is holding you within this physical experience? What is your stance?

   21. JWJonny Wilkinson13:30

       S- so, so interesting, that question. You know, at the beginning, I'd have said, um, "Oh, you know, this is what I'm telling you about my fear, and then I'm talking about my need to survive, and then unlocking that and going beyond it." And you think, "Oh, I understand it," and then you get challenged again. "Oh, where did that come from? Oh, I think I understand that now and I feel so much b- challenged again. Where do these challenges keep coming from?" And I think that's the, the part of me understanding what my stance is, is an ongoing process, an ongoing process of just enjoying challenge and embracing it. And I think, uh, use the kind of expression when I talk to some of the guys I, I train with and, and they're, when they're, they're doing their sort of kicking with the, the rugby, is that it's all about sort of finding that absolute peace and, and inner environment that allows you to go and explore this opportunity you've got ahead of you. And every time you find y- you can't find that state, it's because you're holding onto something. It's never because you don't know something or because you haven't learned something. It's because you're holding onto something you don't need. And you have sessions where, at the end of it, people are feeling like, "I feel amazing." And you're kind of thinking, "Yeah, great, just wait till tomorrow." Because this idea is tomorrow, I'll still feel amazing, but then the next day, you're, "How do you feel?" "I don't know, I just feel a bit like this." "Why?" It's 'cause each of those sessions that we're doing is like a, a light that shines into your, your garage, where you think you've cleared out all the bags in your garage that you don't need anymore. And then you think, "Oh, it's all clear." And then a slightly brighter light comes in the next day, and you're like, "Oh, there's loads of stuff over there. I didn't see that. I better go and clear that."

   22. SBSteven Bartlett15:11

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JWJonny Wilkinson15:11

       Now, that... The more you clear, the more space you find in there.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett15:14

       Hmm.

   25. JWJonny Wilkinson15:15

       But to think you're gonna get to the end of that, for me, to think I'm gonna sort of find out why I'm here, (laughs) what I think I'm gonna find out is that it's my choice to be here. And that's the beautiful part, is the proactive reason for being here.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett15:27

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JWJonny Wilkinson15:28

       And as we said, in the question, it was like, what's holding you here? I think now, probably the, the way I really see that is, is what's my calling? What's my purpose? When that's fulfilled, uh, that'll be an interesting moment, but I don't see that being anytime soon.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett15:42

       It's a really interesting reframing of the situation, because we, you're right, we spend our lives looking for some kind of external given reason for us, our own existence. But flipping that and saying, "Well, yeah, I'm choosing to be here, and I'm choosing to be here because of the purpose that I've decided on," um, is a really powerful thing. Because, uh, uh, yeah, and I mean, in my DMs and messages I get from kids, it's this kind of outside external search for this Easter egg that they were born to find called their passion and their purpose.

   29. JWJonny Wilkinson16:12

       Yep.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett16:12

       And when they can't find the singular Easter egg somewhere, they fall into such tremendous, like, frustration and feelings of inadequacy. "I g- I haven't found my purpose. That means I'm a piece of shit." And, you know, that kind of, that spiral downwards. One of the things you,

3. 16:24 – 23:22

   Going in search of your identity

   1. SBSteven Bartlett16:24

      you touched on there was, um, the feeling of peace. And, y- y- you know, and then the, um, and also, just before that, um, you talked about letting go of, um, something because we're holding onto something. And that thing often is identity and expectation. Something I've definitely done in my life is held too much onto a sense of identity, and that's really caused me lots of problems. As I read through your story, starting from your very early days in Newcastle to later, it, it became apparent that you were, you were holding more and more onto this expectation and identity, which you'd earned from your accomplishment, and that was having a detrimental impact on your peace.

   2. JWJonny Wilkinson17:05

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett17:05

      So talk to me about identity and the journey you've been on there.

   4. JWJonny Wilkinson17:08

      Um, I think, for me, perhaps overriding understanding, and it comes, I think, from a lot of the way I dealt with my sort of immature days of trying to understand that fear and what was going to transcend it, what was gonna help me transcend it, and that understanding was, "I'll solve it. And when I solve it, this fear machine will suddenly turn into a joy machine. My suffering is gonna result in joy." Interestingly enough, by feeding that fear with all the reassurance, whether it be hours and hours and hours upon, of kicking or training that's telling me, you know, giving me the greatest guarantee I could possibly hope for, which was no guarantee at all, never did anything, but it, it never sort of fulfilled itself, satisfied itself. But that was the best I could do to try and reassure the fear of that moment, was saying, "Look, I can do it. You don't have to worry. I can do it." But, of course, as soon as I stopped doing it, the fear comes back and says, "Can you really do it? You better do another one."

   5. SBSteven Bartlett18:10

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JWJonny Wilkinson18:11

      And so trying to solve it by feeding reassurance to a fear machine, the fear machine just becomes a bigger fear machine that needs more reassurance to get the same hit.... trying to get that, that same hit just meant more and more reassurance. So you're building, always building greater habits and needs to keep suffering so I could keep solving. So you lock yourself into that cycle and that cycle, when you're locked into it, compared to when you're not, that's the only difference between why you speak about expectation, and fear of failure, and pressure. It's just 'cause you're in the cycle. It's not a reality to life. It's the reality to the cycle, um, certainly to my cycle. And when I'm outside of that, when I'm feeling good, for example, in the middle of the game where you're, you're in the zone, if you could articulate anything in that sort of mind space, you know, what's the pressure like in there? What are you talking about? How can there be a pressure to now when you're in the now? There's no consequences to the now, because it's now. There's no then, or before, or after, so you can't have consequences. You can't have pressure. It's now. And so, deeply understanding that, versus the cycle, I guess, was where I realized what I was trying to do with all this identity was answer something-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett19:33

      Hm.

   8. JWJonny Wilkinson19:34

      ... was answer a problem. The identity was creating the problem, and the identity was about solving the problem. I had to keep the problem to keep the identity, and I had to keep try solving it to keep the identity as well. And it was never gonna go anywhere. And I think my big issue with all that was I was trying to answer something. I was trying to find, as we said before, in a world made of nothing, universe made of nothing, that's, that's ever ongoing, I was trying to find that answer.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett19:58

      Hm.

   10. JWJonny Wilkinson19:58

       And that answer for me was, from a, an identity perspective, was about working stuff out logically, and yet all my peace and my joy came from when my mind was being, I guess, inspired by my heart. I spent most of my time trying to almost, uh, I guess, inform my heart through my head Was there, what was I trying to do? I wasn't listening to that one moment where I felt beautiful and then learning from that. I was learning from the 99% where I was feeling so stressed and suffering, and I was using that as my guide. I was using my head as my guide. And I think the, undoubtedly, the, the change in me has been to let go of the need to find an answer, to have that trust in that there is not gonna be an answer. There is gonna be, um, an ever-expanding, beautiful journey, which when you remove the answer, it's no longer a journey because it's not going anywhere. It's an adventure. And then that's what the now feels like to me. And I think, yeah, for me, that identity was a massive relative existence on a social level. How did I measure up? How did I compare? All of that to do with trying to answer that problem basically to have this fear I'm somehow not worthy or deserving of having what I want how I want it. And therefore, I've got to manipulate it by looking for what's gonna get in the way of it and how can I control that to see if I can get some of it anyway? Instead of that feeling when you're in the now, which is, this universe is working for me.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett21:39

       Hm.

   12. JWJonny Wilkinson21:39

       And we're friends. We're not, you know, we're not trying to enter into a, some kind of tricky sort of, I don't know, shady deal where, you know, we're both trying to con each other. It's like, no, no, we're, we're in this together.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett21:54

       Some like zero sum game where one of you can win and the other one cannot.

   14. JWJonny Wilkinson21:56

       Yeah, yeah. It was, yeah, for me, that was always the game. That's why you could never rest easy because something went well, that was the time to be like, "Oh, you know, this is where, you know, life might have lost out because I'm doing well, so life's now gonna... How's life gonna come back and get me because I've just tricked life?"

   15. SBSteven Bartlett22:12

       Hm.

   16. JWJonny Wilkinson22:12

       You know, I've gotten something out of it, and it's now like, oh, it's gonna want repayment for this.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett22:15

       Hm. And you're gonna get injured or something.

   18. JWJonny Wilkinson22:17

       You're gonna get injured, or you're go- And, and I guess in a way when you pride yourself on that perfectionism, and the achievements, and the... Which achievements basically also comes down to how other people see you, feel about you, what they think of you. And when you sort of, you know, when you enter into, into that kind of space, it's, uh, you know, humiliation is perhaps the biggest fall. You know, that's the one when you pride yourself so much on being perfect, the thing that scares the, the hell out of you, I think, and from a physical perspective it's living and dying-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett22:55

       Hm.

   20. JWJonny Wilkinson22:55

       ... on an identity level, it's humiliation. And, you know, that was at the basis of a lot of the training was, it would be so humiliating for me. And the more be- well-known you become, the greater the opportunity of humiliation. When you're the unknown (laughs) it's kind of like it doesn't matter too much, you know. When you're playing down at the park and you miss one, no one's watching, you're kind of like, "That's, I can handle that." But, you know, 80,000 people, millions on TV, when everyone knows you and they're all thinking, "Don't worry, he's got this."

   21. SBSteven Bartlett23:20

       Hm.

   22. JWJonny Wilkinson23:20

       Yeah, that's the moment.

4. 23:22 – 29:40

   Is your mindset now conducive of a world cup champion

   1. JWJonny Wilkinson23:22

   2. SBSteven Bartlett23:22

      Your, your battle with, you know, fear, perfectionism, whatever you wanna call it, ultimately led to an obsession on the training ground, right? Bec- And you, you described that obsession on the training ground as actually a distraction from the fear, that it like really never worked in terms of filling the void. Um, I, I sat here, while you were saying that, and I, I said, if Johnny at 16, 17, 18, or before, had the mindset you have now, would he ever have become-

   3. JWJonny Wilkinson23:53

      Hm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett23:54

      ... the player he went on to become? Like if a 16-year-old who is very similar to Johnny is listening to this right now, and he takes in all the advice that you're giving about being present and, you know, removing the fear and living without expectation, et cetera, and living in the now, um, would that increase or reduce his chances of becoming World Cup champion?

   5. JWJonny Wilkinson24:15

      Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a good one. And, in some ways, I would have answered that quite simply by saying-It was when I was at my best... that I was already doing this. So at 17, 18, when I was on the field in the zone, I was operating at a level I couldn't even understand. And that's because I, I was having the mindset that I'm talking about now.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett24:44

      Right.

   7. JWJonny Wilkinson24:44

      So I was already having it, and it was in those moments that I really shone. So it's not like I never had it. It's just that when I did have it in those years, I knew I v- was onto something. It's just the relationship I had was that in order to, to get in the zone, I need to suffer like mad. And the more I sort of, like, started succeeding and feeling a bit of the zone, the more I said, "I better suffer some more."

   8. SBSteven Bartlett25:10

      Hmm.

   9. JWJonny Wilkinson25:10

      The more suffering, the more zone. But of course, you just overload-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett25:14

       Yeah.

   11. JWJonny Wilkinson25:14

       ... the suffering, and, and you've got no room left for anything. Now, and I think working with guys now is the best way to answer this, is that I'm kind of answering that question by working with people in that younger space. And one thing that's certainly, you know, it's, it's actually very, it's impossible to do anyway, but it's, it's also not the right idea, is to remove too much of someone's suffering, because you remove growth. So when I say suffering, probably challenge is, is a better word. You know, obviously we don't want anyone to suffer. But if you remove too much of the challenge, you remove the opportunity for growth. So in a way, I was gonna have challenge then in whatever form, and I needed challenge. I needed, you know, just like saying if you keep winning all the time, you just see a plateau in your performance. And so I didn't want people to agree with me all the time. I didn't want to be written about in the paper as being the best all the time. As much as, asked me before the game, I would've said, "Please, just let me know everything's perfect." But actually looking back, those challenges, those moments of conflict, it's what asks you to step up and go again. So I needed the challenge. I needed all that suffering. But it's just where it crosses a line and becomes counterintuitive and, and counterproductive. There needs to be an understanding of how to relate to the challenge so that you don't face the same one over and over again.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett26:44

       Hmm.

   13. JWJonny Wilkinson26:44

       I think that's what I would, I would've been interested to see was, you know, if you'd have gained some ground on that challenge then, what other challenge would've come? Not that would've been it, but it would've been a different route to see. Um, but it's largely irrelevant. It's not something I ever think about because, um, it's got... What I've been through and, and what I've experienced in that way doesn't make me anything. You know, the past doesn't make the now. The now is the now. Um, and I think, you know, who I am is how I relate to that now, and if I'm carrying around this big idea of how I got here and what I've understood, I'm just separating myself from the now.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett27:25

       Hmm.

   15. JWJonny Wilkinson27:26

       And that's so big. If I come into the now saying, "Here, I'm bringing a past in, can I get in the door?" The now's saying, "No, no, that key doesn't fit." You can't bring the past in here. You have to choose. You're gonna live, y- you're gonna live sort of disconnected from the now, and you can have your past. Or if you're going to allow that and, and have a different relationship with that, then you can have more of me. You can have more of the now. I think that, uh, the same goes with the future, you know? The more you carry your past, the more you're, you're carrying your future at the same time. But that s- same, same principle applies, you know. If you really want the now, it's a case of, well, you've gotta align with it. And ask the now, you know, "What's the now trying to do?" "Nothing." "What are you trying to do?" "Something." "Okay, well, there's the disconnect." And I think that's been huge in those moments on, I always come back to that moment on the field when I'm in the zone. Your identity's gone. You, y- y- there's no, "It's me doing this, it's me trying to do this." There's just doing.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett28:27

       Hmm.

   17. JWJonny Wilkinson28:27

       As was, was happening with the 2003 drop goal. It's the one moment that I can say genuinely, um, it was happening without me involved. I was able to embrace it and enjoy it and experience it, but there was no me trying to do it. It happened whilst I was in it.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett28:47

       Hmm.

   19. JWJonny Wilkinson28:48

       But it wasn't me doing it.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett28:50

       Is that alluding to the fact that you were in a flow state in that moment?

   21. JWJonny Wilkinson28:54

       Yeah, I, I mean, I, whatever flow state means to, to anyone, it's basically that kind of understanding. I guess that there was, for me, what felt like a, a very, very immediate relationship between what I was desiring and intending on the inside and the manifestation of it was almost instantaneous. As opposed to the way people look at it, which is like, "I've got my goals, and, and over time, you know, they're gonna come together to form this." It was, it was almost kind of instantaneous in that respect. And that's, that's where that sense of past and future disappeared, because it was inside/outside, were, you know, lost their separation.

5. 29:40 – 43:29

   Your mental health after the World Cup drop goal

   1. JWJonny Wilkinson29:40

   2. SBSteven Bartlett29:40

      Was your mental health, um, better or worse after that moment?

   3. JWJonny Wilkinson29:46

      Um, I think it was a, a, a sort of catalyst for maybe a, a deepening or intensifying or an acceleration of what was already in place. Definitely. Um, but it wasn't a brand new thing. It was just a, a bit of a, a deeper, I guess, experience of it that came-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett30:15

      For better, for better or for worse?

   5. JWJonny Wilkinson30:16

      F- for, um, well, I mean, I guess depending on how you look at the challenge. It was, uh, for example, the emptiness was just a bit more severe, because winning the World Cup was the main goal.... so winning the game and the six, you know, the, the grand slam or, or getting selected for this or that were huge goals. And the little parts of emptiness afterwards that came, um, were, was a bit less because, one, it wasn't the main goal, and two also because it wasn't the main goal, the ne- the main goal was still in place, which meant you were therefore still moving towards something.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett30:54

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JWJonny Wilkinson30:54

      I think because the main goal was so important, but also afterwards there wasn't that clarity of, "Where I go next," yeah, that was a, a bit of a deeper drop into that space of, "What's this all about?"

   8. SBSteven Bartlett31:08

      And how does that feel in detail? That... You describe that as a deeper drop.

   9. JWJonny Wilkinson31:11

      Just, just a, a, a sense of confusion and sort of bewilderment at the idea that, uh, there was a promise here. There was a promise, albeit one I'd made to myself, but such a deep, such a strong one, and a well-defined one that said, "I- it's gonna happen. I've worked hard for this. I've done all I was asked. I've done all I asked myself to do." (laughs) Again, I keep sort of, you know... I n- I can't abide by the idea that, you know, that there is this, somehow this external... I used to use the blame and the, you know, sort of offset that responsibility and hand it over to someone on the outside to say, "Oh, yeah, that's why I'm feeling this way." But now, you know, it all comes from the inside. But even so, that promise felt strong. It felt real. It felt, um... And that you feel a bit sort of cheated but also confused because there is no one to blame, there is nothing to grab. There's nothing tangible that says, yeah, there's... They're saying, you know, "Well, yeah, I got you there didn't I?" It's like, w- where now? What now? And then there's also a little bit of that extra confusion as to say, "Well, what's the point of the next one?"

   10. SBSteven Bartlett32:19

       The promise was that you'd receive some kind of euphoric joy-

   11. JWJonny Wilkinson32:23

       Yeah, the-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett32:23

       ... and fulfillment and void-

   13. JWJonny Wilkinson32:24

       Definitely.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett32:25

       Yeah.

   15. JWJonny Wilkinson32:25

       It is the Hollywood ending, but of course Hollywood films have that privilege of the credits coming up and-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett32:35

       It's over.

   17. JWJonny Wilkinson32:35

       ... and leaves you with your imagination, and your imagination always just, it, it... Not in detail, but you just think, "Wow, how great for them." But of course should that camera carry on for even another hour-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett32:48

       (laughs) Yeah.

   19. JWJonny Wilkinson32:48

       ... you get, you get something there and, and yeah, that's all it took after the World Cup Final, you know. We went to a private party and you're sort of thinking, "Oh, we'll go there and have a chance to chat. Oh, it's gonna be great." And when you get there it's, (laughs) "Who are these people?" You know. The, "This isn't private. Why are they let..." You know. "I can't even get here to see. There's no space." You know. It's already in.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett33:07

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JWJonny Wilkinson33:07

       It's going and, and... But I think, yeah, waking up the next morning is a, a big one. That night's sleep, you know, leaves you c- in the cold light of day when it's all, you know, you're looking sort of at the, at the room and the hotel and it's, uh, it's, it's just as is. And it's, it's not shiny, you know. I've said this before and a few times when I've spoken. There aren't people waiting outside the door willing to, yeah, hoist you on their shoulders and carry you down to breakfast where you've got your own special table. It just, it is but it's so powerfully kind of beautiful in that way, in the way that it allows you to at some point understand that there's also really great reason for why you feel that way because it's just, it's a, it's a pointer to there's a disconnect here. It's nothing to do with what's going on on the outside. It's just there's a, a misunderstanding here, and an opportunity. But that opportunity, as you said, how do you move onto the next one, it involves some vulnerability because you can't walk in the shoes of the same identity but head in the other direction. The identity is the direction you're heading in. You need, you know, a new identity, a more spacious one, a more open one. But that's vulnerability. That's, you know, to, to do that you have to shed those, those solid lines you've drawn up which have kept you safe and given you your, your stand-out-ness-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett34:39

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JWJonny Wilkinson34:39

       ... to others. They can see you because you draw on yourself in solid lines, and you can say, "This is who I am," and you can talk about yourself in that way. And it feels like that's purpose and that's, that's kind of meaning and worth. But it's, it's, uh, asking you to let that go, and that's humiliation as we were talking about. It's a humbling journey.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett34:56

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JWJonny Wilkinson34:57

       And it's vulnerability and I wasn't ready for it at that time. Definitely not. What also didn't help was the, the, the game after, that I first played after that for my club was two weeks later, and in that game I crossed a line on a neck injury. It'd been building for a long, long time over years, and in that game it, it properly went, and I spent the next couple of months without being able to move my arm and then surgery and all this talk about, "You may never come back." And of course you've gone from, "This is what I do, this is who I am," to, "I don't really know what's going on anymore, and now I can't even do what I do, so I can't even be those solid lines. I can't present anymore. Now I'm watching other people do it." So it's an amazing coming together of circumstance to really point and say, "Hey, what do you think? Shall we have a look at something else?" (laughs)

   26. SBSteven Bartlett35:44

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JWJonny Wilkinson35:44

       It's like, "No." So I was, I was on the exercise bike the day after my neck operation with a neck brace on. My brother came in and saw me, we were living together, saw me and sort of said, "What are you doing?" And it's the need. "I've got to get back to where I was." And this is such a powerful thought is that we want growth, you want progress, you want to advance and to explore and find new things, and yet the way I was gonna do that was going back. That's how I was gonna find new stuff. I have to get back to who I was and how I was, and yet deep inside me what I wanted was, and what I began my journey was, I wanna find out what I'm capable of. What I was actually saying in this moment was, "I want to go back to what I've had."... to where I've been. That was a big, big moment. I just wasn't quite ready to listen to it. And as soon as you do get back, which I did for a little bit, before getting injured again and again and again, which was the stress of all that, that need and obsession, it's enough-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett36:43

       Hmm.

   29. JWJonny Wilkinson36:44

       ... because just enough of the old habits and the triggers come in with people around you saying, "Oh, you're doing great. So good to have you back," and it, (gasps) "I'm back." But of course, it just, it's just enough to hold you off making that, that step in the other direction. And, uh, yeah, that came later on.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett37:03

       I, I reso- resonate so much with that, and my, my moment of, I guess, which is analogous to your moment of being injured and being, trying to be back on the bike, was when I resigned from my company. I kind of looked at it and f- fell into the belief that if I spend the rest of my life living out these labels that I've earned through my accomplishments, social media CEO, or, like, entrepreneur, or whatever, um, I would likely end up abandoning my true self and probably end up in, like, some kind of mid-life crisis. So at that point, as I write about in my book, my objective became, okay, if I had no labels, who would, who would I be? And trying to really live a life free from id- uh, confining identity and be free to be the full expression of myself is the journey I find myself in now. Is that what you mean when you say, um, you were trying to get to the point of understanding, um, all you can be? Is that what you're describing there?
6. 43:29 – 54:01

   How does someone become all they can be

   1. SBSteven Bartlett43:29

      . There'll be people listening to this that are, you know, they left university, they went to school, and now they're a lawyer, and they've been a lawyer for 15 years. Or they might be, I don't know, a dentist. Now they've been a- a dentist for 20 years. And a lot of the time when I speak to these people, there's this other voice inside them that's been suppressed over time, which is probably all they can be, and they've got really consumed in this identity which their, like, parents wanted them to adopt of being a doctor, or a lawyer, or whatever it might be. Um, it, when I speak to these people, they are seemingly trapped by something, and, um, th- that, that force that's trapping them seems to be so much stronger than the other voice, which is, which they sometimes can even point to as being a more fulfilling life, which is, I guess, all they can be. They wanna go and be an artist.

   2. JWJonny Wilkinson44:13

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett44:13

      They speak to me before my show, they show me their Instagram, and they're the most unbelievable artist I've ever seen in my life and they, their face lights up when they talk about that thing. But when I ask them what they do, they say, "Yeah, I work in the city. I work in finance for, like, KPMG or something." And you can see the dread in their face.

   4. JWJonny Wilkinson44:27

      Yep.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett44:27

      How does someone start the journey... And I think y- you alluded to vulnerability there, but how does someone start the journey of going from that place of, you know, confinement and identity and, "I am this thing that I've earned through my achievements," to, "Being all I can be," in a practical way? What's the, how does that journey begin?

   6. JWJonny Wilkinson44:43

      I think that voice, that inner calling, as you just said, is, is passion and excitement versus the duty and the need and the fulfilling the, the roles, if you like, of society. And I think, therefore, for me, the way that works is that you, you add to the passion, excitement constantly and allow that to look after your deepest intention, which is always, "I want to spend, I think, all my time fully present, which means doing what I love doing, being who I feel like I'm meant to be, a- as much as that will keep evolving and changing." So therefore, it comes down to following your highest passion and excitement in every moment. And people might argue straightaway, "Well, how can I do that if I've gotta be at work at 7:00 in the morning and I've, I've gotta do this and I've gotta go and traipse across town to get here?" You say, "Yes, but within the boundaries of what you have to do, what's your highest excitement? Follow that." So, you know, "Ah, I've gotta drive across here and it's gonna take me two hours," and, but then when you're in the car, tune into, "What's my highest passion and excitement? I love this podcast." Okay, go, that's it. "I, I really wanna listen to... I've got that, my hands free, I'm gonna phone so-and-so 'cause I just thought of them and I really want to chat to them." Follow that intuitive, instinctive, impulsive side that comes from what you want. And when that gains momentum-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett46:15

      Mm.

   8. JWJonny Wilkinson46:16

      ... I think the way it works is that the universe responds by providing more and more opportunities to do more and more of what you like, so that your highest and passionate excitement, the environment allows for you to really do more and more of what you really love doing. But you've gotta start the ball rolling by saying, "Right, within this moment right now, how can I, what's my highest passion and excitement? How can I be, how can I bring more of me into this, as opposed to allow this to take away more of me?" And I think that is a journey that just looks after itself, you know? It's, on a physical level it's the do what you, the little things you can do, set goals, and allow them to, you know, what, focus on what you can do and allow it to expand and, and grow into the most amazing things. It's the same way of just doing that on an internal level, is just follow your highest... It might be physical. It might just be things I love thinking about. It's, it even, if it comes down to, to being, you know, you're, you're stuck in a lift (laughs) and you're kind of like... And it's a tiny lift and you're gonna be there for, maybe for a while. Okay, but people talk about going to a happy place, but that's, what's my highest passion and excitement? "Oh, what I love to be doing now. Paint it, picture it, think of it, dream it, feel it." All those kind of things, all these things are amazing things to be doing. And if you're following your highest passion, if you're enjoying and embracing this moment... I spoke to someone recently who was saying that, you know, to know you're on track for your future manifestations of your dreams, the, the indicator is often how deeply are you embracing and enjoying this moment now? And once you find yourself loving this moment, it's amazing how much things just fall into place for you. And I think that's the key, is to, is to be able to say, "Whatever it is, whatever you can do, do it, and bring it to this." And I think that voice that says, "Oh, I can't do this. I can't do that. It's not possible. I shouldn't do this. It's not right," is another way of saying, "I, I can't be me."

   9. SBSteven Bartlett48:24

      It's so interesting, 'cause when you were saying that, I was thinking about the former version of myself at 18 living in Manchester in Moss Side where, uh, you know, I, I was very, ve- I had nothing, and I was shoplifting, uh, as I've talked about a million times, uh, food to feed myself. But in that moment, I was, although I was working in call centers at nightsh- night shifts, I was so unbelievably excited by life, because I was also designing my website in my-

   10. JWJonny Wilkinson48:46

       Okay, yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett48:46

       ... designing my future business in my lunchtime, in my breaks of that call center. Um, and...I, I, pe- I've said this for years and I don't think people believed me, but I f- I, I said, I was as happy then as I am now. That kid was so optimistic and so happy, even though he was, he had no money and he was working night shifts in a call center. Um, and I, uh, pe- and it sounds so privileged and, like, obviously 'cause I've been making money now, whatever, but, um, it's, it's, uh, resonated with so much of you were saying then, I think it's because of what you were saying then was, I was still pursuing my highest passion, despite the fact that I was working in this call center. I was still occupying all of my time and my thoughts, that I could, with that future, and that's what I believe manifested me being here. Because I could've made the decision, um, that this was my destination and my forever, and I'd probably still be there n- now, in Moss Side.

   12. JWJonny Wilkinson49:33

       Yeah. Yeah. I, I definitely agree. The idea about following your highest passion, (inhales deeply) y- there is a passion, I think, deep down, is, f- for expressing who you are. And there's no doubt for me that rugby, for that period of my life, was what I was meant to do. That's how I was supposed to play out. That was, that was what I was supposed to be at that time. Um, but then your passion changes slightly, and to be able to leave the rugby and follow that passion, often, I think people say, you know, "It's really difficult to find my next passion." But I think having that, that kind of ability to l- to leave behind what's been, is what allows passion for what can be. And I think, like we were saying before about wanting to, you finish your rugby and then you think, "I'll go straight into coaching, because it's close enough and people will still know me and I still..." But actually, to have that period of, not just after an end of a career, but daily, to have that quiet period every day, where you just sit, not with, not with ideas, "I'm gonna think about this." Or, "I need to plan this." Or, "I need to work out what my passion is." But just sit, and just disconnect from that pull of the external, eyes closed, and just watch. But of course, straight away, comes in, is, you know, "Am I doing this right? What should be happening? Should I be feeling something? I- I haven't had any ideas. It's been two weeks and..." But just do it. Just do it, in, in the name of moving to your potential, because we- we're so willing to, to give to our limits. Look at how many years we spend s- suffering and telling ourselves certain things that have come from old ideas that no longer serve us, and we're willing to give all our time to those. But people are still, "Oh, it's too hard to find 10 minutes to sit on an evening. What am I gonna do?" When actually, you know, you have that moment where you're sat watching something on TV and it's not really interesting to you, and you're kind of like, (sighs) "That's time there." But once that ball gets rolling, when your passion centers around something and everything comes out of that same passion, so it's all aligned, it's all kind of focused energy-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett51:44

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JWJonny Wilkinson51:45

       ... that's gonna manifest. There's no doubt. You know, like, I'm sure at some level, there's no way you get to where you are now without there being that drive. Now, I had that in the rugby, and a lot of it was, was sort of conflict, and it stressed the hell out of me, but it was so damn strong, that it had to win.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett52:07

       Hm.

   16. JWJonny Wilkinson52:07

       Because I wouldn't let it not win.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett52:09

       Yeah.

   18. JWJonny Wilkinson52:09

       I just didn't do it in a way that was enjoyable.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett52:11

       Same.

   20. JWJonny Wilkinson52:12

       And now I think, when you release the conflict, you get even more flow. You get an effortless version of what I've done through efforting.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett52:20

       Hm.

   22. JWJonny Wilkinson52:20

       I've efforted head- heavily. (laughs)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett52:22

       Mm.

   24. JWJonny Wilkinson52:22

       Yeah. I, listen, I heard that word recently. I really like it. I much prefer it than tried or, or given so much. But I've really made it a, a sort of, an effort version of how to get to the top. And what that means is when I look back, it's like, "How was it?" "Oh, I never smelt the roses." That's what most people say. Yeah, because there's another way to do it, and maybe that's how this has come out for you versus the first time. I don't know. You know? Like, these projects for me, the next things I'm doing seem to just kind of, "Oh, yeah. There it is. That's interesting."

   25. SBSteven Bartlett52:50

       (laughs)

   26. JWJonny Wilkinson52:50

       Whereas before it was, "Ah, got to, sort of, get out of there. Don't you dare." Whatever it is. I think that just comes from, at some point, just saying, "Well, okay, this is what I've got."

   27. SBSteven Bartlett53:00

       Hm.

   28. JWJonny Wilkinson53:00

       Acceptance. And then what do I want-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett53:04

       Hm.

   30. JWJonny Wilkinson53:05

       ... to do right now? What's my next step? Responsibility. And you can't get to that passion without the acceptance. And the acceptance is, "This is what I've got. This is where I'm meant to be. This is how things are." And once they come to ease with that, then suddenly, there is that, "Oh, I can start to feel what it is I want to do next."
7. 54:01 – 58:05

   Was winning the World Cup really your goal?

   1. JWJonny Wilkinson54:01

   2. SBSteven Bartlett54:01

      You, you nailed it when you described me as well with that, when you said, um, the drive that I had that was really strong was actually, upon reflection, just deep insecurity. Grappling-

   3. JWJonny Wilkinson54:08

      Yeah. Still a big drive though.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett54:09

      It's still a big drive though.

   5. JWJonny Wilkinson54:10

      It's a big, big drive, yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett54:11

      Hard to shake. When you think about winning the World Cup, and you said that was the goal, was that really your, your goal?

   7. JWJonny Wilkinson54:19

      Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's in, I think having, like you said, the insecurities often, for me, just comes down to the opposite of trust. It's distrust, in yourself or whatever. But when there's a different trust about it, that acceptance I was speaking about is all-encompassing. That it, it, when you accept now, it, it is a full acceptance of all that's been. Now is, is, you know, if you accept this, then everything from a physical perspective that's brought to here also sort of is accepted. And therefore, for me-It was my goal, because deep down, my inner calling was I want to be free, I want to be happy, and I- I want this. And so, according to the energy I was in, these were the cooperative components. Win a World Cup. Why? So you can see that that's not quite where you need to be going.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett55:09

      Hmm.

   9. JWJonny Wilkinson55:10

      All right. Have some injuries. Why? So you can go through your own learning at the speed that you're choosing. You can't go any faster than you're ready for, and you can't go any slower. It- it is simply as it is, and as you explore, I think it kind of, as you start to expand, it- the expansion takes place-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett55:27

       Hmm.

   11. JWJonny Wilkinson55:27

       ... I think quicker once you get going. I think more revelations come, and it kind of opens up harder or faster. But the- the point for me being that that trust is just ... it may have taken 40 years to get to this point from a- but from an experiential level, I don't feel 40 years has gone into this. It's been instantaneous, because it's just memory. It's not 40 years. And so I kind of love the idea of people confusing the past with memory.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett56:00

       Hmm.

   13. JWJonny Wilkinson56:00

       When it's memory, and you start to realize it's memory, and then you start to realize that you have a- a say in the emotional involvement in that memory, you can release it from those memories, that you can play with your past. Whereas people have a fixed idea of past-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett56:17

       Hmm.

   15. JWJonny Wilkinson56:17

       ... and yet they want a different future. It's like- like a railroad track, you know, that- that has a certain piece that's slightly curved, and the train is going along and reaches back from the previous piece and sticks it in front-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett56:27

       Yeah.

   17. JWJonny Wilkinson56:27

       ... 'cause these are my understandings about how life is, this is how it's going to be, and so you end up just going round-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett56:31

       ... in circles.

   19. JWJonny Wilkinson56:32

       ... and round and round in circles. Instead of the classic cycle breaker, which is that random different piece, and sometimes it's a big shock or a trauma for people, the way you kind of get a piece that's, like, completely different direction. Suddenly, you head off into the unknown, and people have those amazing, you know, experiences. But sometimes it's just a piece which is slightly less curved, and that's what those moments were for me, you know, that different understanding of like, hold on, I thought there was going to be joy here. I was convinced. There isn't. And suddenly, that cycle break, and you're thinking just enough to change the piece a bit, and you head here, and you widen-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett57:06

       Hmm.

   21. JWJonny Wilkinson57:06

       ... your circle, and eventually, you start to be in control a little bit more of how you're going to see each event, so you can start to, best you can, shape those pieces to send you into the unknown, which is where I didn't want to go before. You know, that's the- the- the- the unknown was the threat, the unknown was the- was the potential slip-up we're talking about, was that kind of shady space where you're not in control anymore. Whereas now, the unknown is like, well, if you want potential, if you want to see what life is, it's unknown, and the more unknown you see yourself, the more you a- align with life.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett57:36

       Yeah.

   23. JWJonny Wilkinson57:36

       The less ideas I have, the more unknown I am, the more I align with life, the more that I start to- to get that- that s- I think that more instantaneous response we're talking about, instead of it taking 40 years. You know, for me, it's gone, over that 40 years, it's been sort of expanding out, but over the last f- 15, it's been quicker over the last five, much quicker, and over the last one, much, much quicker.

8. 58:05 – 1:05:34

   What impact has being open and honest had on your life?

   1. JWJonny Wilkinson58:05

   2. SBSteven Bartlett58:05

      This- the- vulnerability is an interesting word 'cause it assumes it makes you feel a certain way, but this- this truth and this openness that you speak, um, you- you- in- which is kind of marks the way you speak now, this kind of, "I'm willing to tell you all about myself in terms of how I feel and what I'm thinking, and I'm willing..." it- which, again, this is an assumption, "I don't care as much about what you think of me based on what I'm sharing now, whether it's about your mental health or about how you're feeling," which again, are things that men don't typically do, especially, you know, leaders in sport, right? What impact has stepping into your truth and being open and f- and like free from caring too much about what others might think of you because you're so open about your mental health and other things, what impact has ha- that had on your life?

   3. JWJonny Wilkinson58:51

      I think it's the openness is- is- is not, um, a conscious decision. I'm not coming here and saying, "I'm now going to be so open about it the same way that I might have been unconsciously closed before." You know, still kind of not speaking about stuff, not because I'm sitting there thinking, "Oh, I'm not talking about this," but because that feeling says, "This is where I want to stay within the boundaries of this on the conversation." And now, the boundaries are wider, not because- it's not a now a narrow boundary of all I ever talk about is how my suffering is kind of like... But it- you talk about, I guess, what's relevant to the moment, to the conversation, and it's inspired rather than, um, pre-planned. I, like I said to you before, I think that used to be a big one for preparation. Um, so coming into this, you know, I- I dread to think what I'd have been like when I was 21, but I'd- I'd have been, you know, out there with- with my sort of agent or with my- my- my dad or my mum or something, and we went to come in and be like, "Yeah." And they'd be like, "It's gonna go fine. Don't worry. It's gonna go fine." You'd be like, "Yeah, it is. Just make sure you..." I'm gonna talk about that, and- and I might talk about that story if you ask me about that.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:01

      Hmm.

   5. JWJonny Wilkinson1:00:02

      It's planned-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:03

      Hmm.

   7. JWJonny Wilkinson1:00:03

      ... on the basis of I'm trying to achieve an outcome from this. But when it become- which again, is that whole kind of like, what I create, what I actually create defines who I am, so what I'm going to create from this will define who I am, so I need to make sure it's how I want it to be, all based on this idea of who I am. But without that idea, I think I speak according to the situation, not according to my identity, and I listen according to what's maybe more of what's really being meant-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:37

      Hmm.

   9. JWJonny Wilkinson1:00:37

      ... than what's being said. And again, it- it- it's this- I guess it's this different, more- less solid idea of who you are that just suddenly opens up the understanding of what really listening is and being there is. I mean, being there for someone is such a f- amazing phrase when you really look at it. To be there for someone, it means fully being.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:00

       Hmm.

   11. JWJonny Wilkinson1:01:01

       Now, if you, people are saying, "But how, how, what's the best thing to do if someone's struggling?" It's like, well, just be there for them. Okay. But you mean, like, just physically stand there and be loving and ... But all, if all of this is an effort, it's designed to get an outcome. But if, to get an outcome for someone else, you must have to know what's right for them.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:20

       Hmm.

   13. JWJonny Wilkinson1:01:21

       And now you're deciding and limiting them. But if you wanna be all you can be, you're, you can allow others to be all they can be. You can allow a situation to be all it can be. And I think that, kind of, for me has been, you know, the, the, one of the biggest openings for us. And an, an example I'd say was I spoke to a, a young, uh, football player a while back, maybe sort of 15, 16 years old, and someone had said, "Would you mind just having a, a chat?" Uh, and I said, "Yeah, of course, I'd love to." You know, you get that inspirational sort of feel immediately that, yeah, this is one of those cooperative manifested moments of there's something that I've, I've called for, and this has been offered, and I think, "I'm going to explore this, you know, because it feels right that it's in my path." And we had a chat, and midway through the chat, it came to me in quite a sort of emotionally sort of, I guess, intense way. I suddenly realized that I wasn't talking to this person as if I was 40, they were 15, as if they were a young soccer player, I was an ex-rugby player. I suddenly realized that I was exchanging on a level here where it was energy form to energy form, not age relevant at all, not even defined, simply that I was performing a role of serving and being served at the same time, according to allowing and letting it be. Whereas before, it would have been, okay, right, before the call, you kind of put on your mentor shirt, you know, going to be a mentor now, and, um, you know, h- uh, better talk like this and give it the whole kind of, "Yeah, well, I guess if you're gonna play sport..." You know, all this kind of stuff. But instead, you phone up and suddenly I realized I'd lost that idea of the difference between people. And people talk about it from, you know, age, gender, all these kind of things, you know, religion, race, everything, and you sort of think, "We're all trying to do that by listening to the right thing to do and what people should say and how you should speak." But it's, all the answers are in your own journey to releasing all your sort of self-discriminations and judgments, that then it just becomes so easy and obvious, but so joyful and such a, a true exchange according to what's really being asked for, rather than two people playing a game on the surface of playing our roles and seeing what we can get from each other. It's two people sharing what's really being asked for. And I, I sort of feel like, if you like, for me, from a, that perspective, that's the first time I've, I've kind of understood what it is to really care for someone, is to completely let go of your own ideas of them. And in order to do that, you have to let go of yours about you. And I think that's the selfless side of it. It's, it's funny, that expression, you know, selfless, you remove yourself and you can be selfless. And just being able to sit there and listen and be fascinated by someone, um, has been a really, I think, a big, a big moment in that. And that, that kind of, yeah, has been a, uh, that's been a nice change. That moment for me was one where I suddenly realized, you know, that I've been playing a game-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:35

       Hmm.

   15. JWJonny Wilkinson1:04:36

       ... for so long, according, again, to that identity, what I need from this, how it's gonna look. You know, I, I'm using people. I don't mean necessarily on, on that whole kind of exploitative, you know, I guess in a way it is, but you're kind of using them to get them to feel a certain way about you.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:52

       Hmm.

   17. JWJonny Wilkinson1:04:52

       You're using them to, to say what you need them to say for you, to fill that space. And once that goes, relationships, I think, take on a whole new level.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:01

       Interesting. You're, you're essentially using them to confirm the, the identity.

   19. JWJonny Wilkinson1:05:06

       To fill the hole.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:06

       Yeah. Make me feel like I'm your mentor.

   21. JWJonny Wilkinson1:05:08

       Yeah, yeah, exactly.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:10

       Right, and confirm, yeah, right.

   23. JWJonny Wilkinson1:05:10

       Like, yeah, so I, you know, I need, at the end of it, I need you, I need that kind of like, "Thanks so much for your time."

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:16

       Thank you.

   25. JWJonny Wilkinson1:05:16

       "Yeah, I can't believe you're doing this," and I need that backup call that comes when the person that introduced you says, "Oh, they're over the moon. They're so chuffed you spoke to them. You've changed their life forever." You need that.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:26

       Yeah.

   27. JWJonny Wilkinson1:05:26

       Because that's what I'm, you know, because without that, am I doing a good job?

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:29

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JWJonny Wilkinson1:05:30

       But once that goes, it's a bit like, "Well, I'm doing what I was supposed to be doing."

9. 1:05:34 – 1:11:18

   Your mental health journey

   1. JWJonny Wilkinson1:05:34

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:34

      When I, when I look over your story, one of the, the threads that goes through it, uh, even up until today because I, I, I read that you were thinking of or in the process of starting a mental health foundation, is the story of mental health, something that's become a, a greater discussed topic in our generation, specifically around, because there's a lot of men that are f- arriving at the unfortunate decision that the only way out is to, to end their lives. And it's the, now the big, big, biggest single killer of men under the age of 45 in, in our country. Your mental health journey, um, t- twists and turns, it seems. I remember vividly reading that you, you, you were in your hotel room in your playing days looking at the TV and it's basically just lights because your head is overthinking at an unbelievable rate. And, uh, it sounds, it sounds somewhat, and I'm not familiar with the, the medical definition of a panic attack or anxiety, but it sounds somewhat like that. Um, have you ever experienced depression in your life, uh, uh, uh, about a period where, and again, I'm, I'm not a, um, a doctor, but where you feel a sustained low-

   3. JWJonny Wilkinson1:06:31

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:31

      ... um, that would be clinically described as depression?

   5. JWJonny Wilkinson1:06:34

      Yeah. Uh, they'll always go together, uh, sadly.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:37

      Oh?

   7. JWJonny Wilkinson1:06:37

      Yeah, because for me, they do, 'cause you have that sense of panic and anxiety, um, which for me has always been around sort of finding these, these insurmountable issues throughout my life, what seems to be the insurmountable, which is basically saying, "According to how I've positioned my view of life, this is now insurmountable. According to my belief system, this means this is an issue, and we can't pass each other." And-The fear then kicks in, the lack of control. The, the, the panic kicks in, which again, the hysterical nature of it, you know, it tells me that it's, you know, it's not rational to the, to the moment. You know, we don't talk about ... There's no threat here, but if I'm having that threat, I know it's, it's coming from something deeper. But the fact that it's insurmountable, the fact, or s- it appears so, and the fact that before I wouldn't have seen changing your energy, otherwise known as changing your identity, I guess, in a way, or removing your identity, I wouldn't have seen that as an opportunity. So therefore, you're stuck in that insurmountable space, and that's where the depression kicks in. "What's the point? What's the point? This is me now. I can't live with, I can't live without this. I'm stuck." The needle is right in the middle, and every time I try and move it one way to get some clarity, once it goes that way, I panic because it has to come back. I don't want it to go that way. So I bring it to the middle, and then I try and work it the other way, and it's like, "I don't want it to go that way." And it's this classic two voices you mentioned, which is this call for happiness and this call for joy and, and freedom and, and all that, the stuff which just blossoms out over and over again in ways that ... beyond belief, but another voice that says, "I don't want that."

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:28

      Hmm.

   9. JWJonny Wilkinson1:08:29

      "I want it so much and I don't want it at the same time," and the don't want it voice is the ide- this is who I am, I think I am, and I want to save this whilst having that. Those are the two voices. And when you're locked into that, "I want to save this," "I want that" becomes, "I can never have it."

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:49

       Hmm.

   11. JWJonny Wilkinson1:08:50

       "This is all I've got, and right now, if this is me, you know, what's the point?" But understanding for me that those two v- it's those two voices that I'm working with, not external truths, you know, external situations. And, and they're not, "This is the way the world is and unfortunately, therefore, this is the way it is." That's the voice that comes from old ideas, and understanding you're working with old ideas, and old ideas represent that energy state or, or shape it, that when you start to realize, "Well hold on. On an energy level, if I just trust, I keep working with my energy, and I trust as long as it takes, I'm gonna work on it," that's it. Without this idea that, you know, this idea of how and when it should sort itself out. "Well, uh, you know, I heard that person talking about getting some revelations, and I haven't had any yet, but I should have any some- after two weeks. Oh, it hasn't been ... I'm not getting any. I can't even..." You know, it's like, no, just leave it open-ended. And, you know, if, if people go to the gym sometimes when they don't really want to, it's kind of like, "Well, why not just sit quietly for 10 minutes when you don't really want to?" But just do it anyway. Just do it and just say, "Okay. I'll see." It's a bit like the, the, the looking in the mirror when you go into the gym, you know. You ... Over day after day you don't see it. Someone else says, "Oh, yeah. What's happening there?" You're kind of like, "Well, I've been going to the gym." It's like, "All right, well I haven't really seen it." It's the same with sitting quietly. It feels like nothing's happening, but it is.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:20

       Quick one. As we all know, energy independence and living a little greener has never been more important for a better future. It's a, it's a journey I've been on over the last couple of years that I've shared with you sporadically, ever since I sold my Range Rover Sport and bought an electric bicycle. And there's a lot of people out there that listen to this podcast that are looking to make that sustainable switch in the things that run their daily life, whether it's their home, their car, their vehicles, whatever it might be. So, when a good friend of mine at a company called MyEnergy called Jordan, told me she was interested in sponsoring this podcast, I jumped at the opportunity. So for those of you that don't know, MyEnergy are a UK renewable energy brand whose mission is to increase the usage of green energy, helping people like you and I to save time and money when it comes to making sustainable switches in our lives. So if this resonates with you, and you're the type of person that's been looking or thinking about going on your own sustainability journey, I highly recommend checking them out at myenergy.com.

10. 1:11:18 – 1:15:55

    Are you happy?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:18

       Patrice Everest, uh, here, Manchester United football legend, left back.

    2. JWJonny Wilkinson1:11:22

       (laughs)

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:22

       Um, uh, and he said that one of the questions that really changed his life was one day when his girlfriend turned to him and said, "Patrice, are you happy?" And when he was asked that question ... And I remember when I was asked that question because my girlfriend at the time asked me i- uh, it ... When I was driving home in my car back to my house after work, and she turned to me and said, "Are you happy?" And it was a v- it made me feel uncomfortable.

    4. JWJonny Wilkinson1:11:44

       Okay.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:44

       And Patrice described a similar thing, like he kind of snapped back at her, "Of course I'm happy," but then she persisted. And this kind of was a really, a real turning point in his life where he eventually, uh, admitted to a, to being molested when he was in school, something he'd never told anybody and had con- had never confronted. And that set him off on the journey of understanding himself in truth and finding a way to not be this tough guy anymore, and to be compassionate and loving and to be all he could be, right? Um, are you happy?

    6. JWJonny Wilkinson1:12:13

       It's a ... I was just thinking there whilst you were ... I presumed you were gonna ask me that question.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:17

       (laughs) Yeah.

    8. JWJonny Wilkinson1:12:18

       Uh-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:18

       I took the long way around that one.

    10. JWJonny Wilkinson1:12:19

        Yeah, no, it's good. (laughs) Uh, I, uh, I think, I think happiness, when you're asked it that way is, is a bit of a destination.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:29

        Hmm. Yes or no, isn't it? Yeah.

    12. JWJonny Wilkinson1:12:30

        It's like a yes or no. It's kind of like, you know what? I'd like to say it may be, in terms of am I grateful to be alive? And I think, you know, am I full of gratitude is my way of looking at it. Am I, um, am I in touch with that, that sense of, of just being, yeah, so, so pleased that I'm, I'm having this opportunity of life. And yeah, definitely. And I wonder sometimes even in my darkest moments if you kind of go, you know, this is part of that journey.... as well. And in a way, when I look back, it's more, so much more difficult at the time. I mean, almost impossible. When I look back, am I pleased and grateful for that? It's like, yes, I am, because it always turns out that it's the answer to a deeper connection. And I feel like, yes, am I happy? I'm grateful to be alive, and I don't want to change a thing. And I think that's kind of, for me, would I change anything? I don't want... And I think that's a sign, you know. I feel like as was underneath so much of the, the, the, the rugby stuff, the achievement stuff, the savior stuff, the warrior stuff, the martyr stuff, it was always a case of, "I'm not enough, so I need to earn it from other people, from outcomes, from life," or whatever. And, and I think that question is, "Are you happy?" is like, do you realize, you know, that you're enough? Do you feel that you're worthy and deserving of being here? And I think that's the connection to, to everything. And I think maybe that's the answer. All this energy change stuff we're talking about or, or old ideas or... It's, really comes down to recognizing that, you know, are you, are you aware of just how worthy you are? That this whole universe is, is answering to you with these experiences. You know, the... Whatever's happened (clears throat) , this morning, and whatever's happened on my journey here and meeting you, this has all been put in my path for me, the same way it is for everyone. It's like, I mean, it's... I heard another expression a while back saying that, um, we're so important with the... Without you, the universe couldn't be all that it could be. It would just be some of what it could be. And, and therefore it couldn't exist. That's how important we all are. We're here because we're supposed to be here. And what's great is that, you know, that finding out your, your passion, your, your, your joy and your true meaning is, is not something you need to worry about. Just something that you need to allow out and know that all these events are pointing you, I think, pointing us all towards all we can be, if we're willing to listen. But when we answer them, try and stop them, we're basically saying, "No, no, I've found who I'm supposed to be, and therefore I don't need this." But when I think we're sort of willing to, to, to look at what we've been given and say, "Well, I must need this." (laughs) And maybe there's something asking for this deeper that knows way more than I do. So, you know, I'll step out the way for a bit and, and have a good old listen.

11. 1:15:55 – 1:18:02

    Your partner

    1. JWJonny Wilkinson1:15:55

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:55

       Shelley, your wife?

    3. JWJonny Wilkinson1:15:58

       Yep.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:00

       What role has sh- she played and just having a partner through this, this journey, h- what role has that played in y- you discovering and going on the journey of d- becoming all you can be?

    5. JWJonny Wilkinson1:16:13

       I think it must be the same, I don't know, for, for all people. I did hear Eckhart Tolle say that, uh, relationships were the spiritual work for the West. You know, it's, for the East, uh, uh, I don't know what the case is now, but, you know, maybe it used to be sitting on hillsides, but people sort of think, "Oh, I can't, I can't do that because I've got my responsibilities." But it's like, th- this is the work. Relationships are massive like that. And, you know, she's perfect in, in every way, because she's perfect as she is. Um, but also because she's, she's exactly what I need, and that means when I get challenged, I'm kind of like, "This is what I need." And it's, you know, like I said, it's, it's when someone sort of provides that opportunity for you to, to sort of be more of you on every level, I think that's, that's kind of gold dust. And therefore, I think, you know, I turn up and I don't expect or, or think she should be or any certain way. Um, I need her to be exactly as she wants to be and is, um, because it's right for me, and hopefully I'm being the same for her. But, um, it's funny how we both kind of growing in, in our own ways, in our own directions, I think because of each other. And now, you know, we got someone else on that journey with us in our little world, and, and exactly the same relationship. I think the best thing is that, uh, both of us is, neither of us are trying to lead a change in the other. We're both trying to l- sort of uncover more about ourselves, and that's doing everything in the work, in the relation. As I said before, you know, working on someone else really doesn't work for anyone, but working on yourself tends to work for everyone.

12. 1:18:02 – 1:27:15

    Your drink - Number 1 Living

    1. JWJonny Wilkinson1:18:02

Episode duration: 1:35:20