Karren Brady: How To Win At Entrepreneurship & Love (at the same time!)

Steven Bartlett 0:00 Could you do me a quick favor if you're listening to this? Please hit the follow or subscribe button. It helps more than you know. And we invite subscribers in every month to watch the show in-person.

Karren Brady 0:07 I remember my first away game, and I turned up, and I said, "Oh, hi, could you tell me where the boardroom is?" And he said, "Dear, you don't understand. The directors' wives go in the ladies room." And I said, "No, uh, I don't think it's you understands. I am the managing director."

Steven Bartlett 0:21 Baroness Brady.

Karren Brady 0:22 She's one of Britain's most successful businesswomen. I'm the kind of person that never hears the word no. I hear, "Find another way to get what you want." Leadership is about vision, and your art as a leader is to persuade people to believe in your vision.

Steven Bartlett 0:37 I remember reading a story about your son turning to you on a holiday and saying, "I wish your BlackBerry would blow up."

Karren Brady 0:41 Working mother is the best title for me. Sometimes you don't get it right. You can only do the best you can do. Ambition is that spark, it's that fire inside of yourself that won't let you settle for anything other than what you think you deserve and what you want.

Steven Bartlett 0:59 What would you say to those young women that are starting out in their career?

Karren Brady 1:02 I would say...

Steven Bartlett 1:05 So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

Steven Bartlett 1:21 Karen.

Karren Brady 1:22 Hello, Steven. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:23 Um, I, I have spent the last couple of days listening to your interviews and reading a lot of, sort of interviews you've done in newspapers and things like that. And as I got further and further and further, further into your story and further into your childhood, there was this, this question which I wasn't able to answer despite all that I, I'd read. And it's, you clearly from a very young age had this real deep desire to have freedom, which resulted in this independence, and also resulted in this wonderful young person who had this ability to, like, stand up for themselves. But where did this deep desire to be free from the control of others, where does it come from?

Karren Brady 1:56 I don't know. I mean, um, my mother always tells a story that, um, when I was four, that, um, my grandfather was looking after me at home. And, um, my parents had this drinks cabinet, and it was sort of opened down and it had all these, like, bottles, beautiful bottles-

Steven Bartlett 2:12 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 2:12 ... and little glasses and things. And she tells this story, and I don't remember it at all, that I got a chair and I climbed up and I opened the drinks cabinet, and they had these little sherry glasses and I poured all the little bits of liquid from it, and I started to drink it. And my grandfather said, um, "Don't do that. You'll be sick." And I said, "You leave me alone. I'll do what I want. I won't be sick." And then of course drank a half of the-

Steven Bartlett 2:37 (laughs)

Karren Brady 2:38 ... (laughs) half of the drinks cabinet. Um, and wasn't sick. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 2:44 (laughs)

Karren Brady 2:44 And my mum said, "You were always defiant. You always had your own mind, wanted to do your own thing, uh, thought you knew best." Cut my own hair when I was six. We had a, um, a school photo the next day, and I decided the only person who could cut my hair was myself. And you should see the picture.

Steven Bartlett 3:03 (laughs)

Karren Brady 3:03 My fringe sort of starts here and sort of goes like that, and it's got all lumps cut out of it. I guess I kind of thought if I didn't stand up for myself, no one would. And I was very happy to stand up for myself and... You know, in life as you go through life, you, one of the things you realize is that if sometimes you've got to find your backbone, and you've got to use it. And simply putting one foot in front of the other and keep going is one of the philosophies I've had in my life. But no, always defiant, always stood up for myself, never took anything lying down. Yeah, I don't know.

Steven Bartlett 3:36 Defiant feels like the perfect word. Um, and I was trying to figure out where it came from because usually when I sit with my guests, they can, like, even if it's incorrect, they can look back in hindsight and pinpoint a moment. Some kind of trauma or pain or negative experience which shaped them to be a bit of an anomaly in some way. So I was like, "Where did this defiance come from?" And I couldn't quite figure it out.

Karren Brady 3:56 I don't know. I, I have no idea. It's not part of any trauma that happened to me. I just, I guess I always felt that I had something to say. And even at a young age, I wanted to say it, and I didn't care who heard it or how, you know... I just felt I wanted to stand up for myself. I, I've no idea. I've never really thought about it. I know it's definitely a part of my personality trait, the, uh, this defiance, this, "I'm gonna prove people wrong. I'm gonna do what I wanna do, how I wanna do it." Uh, but I never really thought about where it came from.

Steven Bartlett 4:33 What's this story about your first day of school and your mum being concerned that you might be shy and then finding out that you-

Karren Brady 4:38 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 4:38 ... chucked some kid off a chair? (laughs) What-

Karren Brady 4:40 (laughs) Well, there's another st- I mean, I don't remember any of these stories. But my mum said the first day of school she was very worried if I would be shy or would I want to go home or whatever. And she w- went to pick me up from school and she said to the teacher, "How was Karen?" She said, "Oh, your daughter's Karen." She said, "Oh, is she shy?" She said, "Karen, shy?" She said she, she went up to a boy in a chair and she went, "That's my seat. Get off." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 5:03 (laughs)

Karren Brady 5:03 So, but I don't remember it. I don't remember any of these things. But all these little stories, they always have one thing in common, that I had this sort of level of defiance and this, you know, determination to, to stand up for myself.

Steven Bartlett 5:15 One of my suspicions when I was trying to piece together this, this little bit of defiance puzzle was, um, reading about your dad and how much of a sort of hardworking, autonomous man he was, and how hard you said he worked. I was wondering if they'd given you a bit of a kind of a void of independence when you were growing up that led you to create this kind of independence in yourself. Was, were they, like, present, and were they on you as-

Karren Brady 5:39 No.

Steven Bartlett 5:39 Okay.

Karren Brady 5:39 Definitely not on me in that way. They weren't, you know, tiger parents pushing you to the front, although my grandmother used to always say, "Be first 'cause it's the best place to be." She used to always say that to me. So my dad left school at 14, didn't have much of an education, and worked really hard to get where he wanted. And I guess the lesson from him was, you know, nothing compensates for hard work. And if you don't try, you know, if you don't try something, you'll never know how good you are at something. So I think maybe that sheer resilience came from his model of working hard, doing your best, trying everything, pushing yourself forward.

Steven Bartlett 6:16 And would he give you advice?... would he impart knowledge onto you or was it you learning by his ex- ex- example of watching him work so hard?

Karren Brady 6:24 I think almost definitely the- the- the second one. I- I don't remember him ever sitting me down and saying, "Do this and you- you know, th- your life will be better or more enriched." I think it was just w- w- learning from examples, from seeing the hard work. And, you know, we went from Edmonton to a little bit further up, to another little place in Edmonton, to a bit further up, and our lives sort of got slightly better. And my dad's desire was to give my brother and I a really good education, 'cause he hadn't had one. So he really wanted us to have a great education, 'cause he felt that was a big part of what was missing in his life. And I guess, he- maybe he thought if you have a great education, you don't have to work so hard, you don't have to start-

Steven Bartlett 7:06 Hmm.

Karren Brady 7:06 ... so much at the bottom. I think that was a real driver for him.

Steven Bartlett 7:10 And your mother?

Karren Brady 7:11 My mother was a housewife.

Steven Bartlett 7:12 Okay.

Karren Brady 7:12 So she had no ambitions for work. Very smart woman, very nurturing in everything that she did. W- my- my dad was away working a lot, so she was a lot on her own. Uh, but equally fun-loving and stylish, and you know, spoke her mind too.

Steven Bartlett 7:30 And you, at this age, didn't have big ambitions for what you wanted to do in the future, in terms of specific ambitions about career options. There's a quote which I read, where you said, "I wasn't gifted in anything. I wasn't academic. I wasn't the best at anything. In fact, I was a very average child who really didn't know what she wanted to do or where she was going to go. The greatest gift that my parents gave me was self-esteem."

Karren Brady 7:51 Yep. I think you're very lucky if you know what you want to do. If you have a vocation or a calling at a young age, I think that is a remarkable thing that you should- y- you should channel. I didn't know what I was good at. I didn't feel I was particularly good at anything. I- w- it wasn't as though I had a particular panache for, you know, anything. And, uh, I wasn't particularly ambitious, but I know I wanted to do something with my life, but I didn't know what. And I think ambition is something that sort of creeps up on your slowly, when you realize you're good at something, and you think, "Oh, actually, I'm quite good at this." And then you think, "Actually, I might be the best person in this room at this, or I might be-"

Steven Bartlett 8:36 Hmm.

Karren Brady 8:36 ... "the best person I know at this." And that inspires you to- to- to keep going. But I left school at 18. I had O Levels and A Levels, as they were in those days, but I had no qualifications. But what I had worked out is something really important, and that is, I'd worked out my core values. So at 18, I had worked out that I was ambitious, I was determined, and I had integrity. And core values are the things that sort of make you who you are. They are the things that lead you to make the decisions you make for yourself, and the way you make decisions. And at 18, I knew those things about myself. And at 52, I think they're still my core values. And armed with those things, I set out to get a job. And the one thing I wanted for my life was independence. I wanted to say what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it and when I wanted to do it. And that's predominantly because I'd been at boarding school from a very early age, going back to my father wanting to give me the best education. He thought an- a- a boarding school education was probably the best. Uh, in a boarding school, you get up when you're told, you eat what you're told, you wear what you're told, you do what you're told, and I'd had enough. And I knew that independence only really came when you had your own money. And the problem is, at 18, I didn't know how you made money. But I kind of worked out almost everyone works for someone even before they work for themselves. So I went out and I got a job. And at 18, with no qualifications other than O Levels and A Levels, but armed with my core values, that I really wasn't afraid to work hard, and I was really ambitious, and I would try anything, and I would do anything, but with integrity, I went out and I got a job, and I started my career.

Steven Bartlett 10:16 Something I just- I was just trying to piece- piece, um, put two kind of dots together there. Boarding school, a very restrictive place, the antithesis of like freedom. Your childhood, it sounded like you had quite a lot of sort of relative freedom. Is there- is- is it possible that you went from a- a- a child to pre-boarding school, where you had a bit more freedom, and then because boarding school was such a big change, you had a bit of an allergic reaction to the someone taking your freedom? Or do you-

Karren Brady 10:41 My friends, who are still my friends from when we were at- at school in those days, we remember only one thing (laughs) about that whole time, the boredom of simply being there and having mass sort of three times a day. And the second thing was we were hungry all the time. Every day was a fast day.

Steven Bartlett 10:57 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 10:57 So you'd have, you know, the holy saint of such and such day, and it was a fast day, and we remember those- those two things, and the sort of repressive attitude of wearing the same thing, doing the same thing, doing what you're told, not being able to explore things you were interested in. Um, and, uh, none of us could wait to- none of us could wait to leave. But it did teach me resilience, the ability to do the things that need to be done when they need to be done, whether you like it or not, and that's because every day was the same. And there's a great lesson, I think, in life, in being able to force yourself to do things you don't want to do because you have to, and that taught me a great deal of patience and resilience and determination.

Steven Bartlett 11:46 Hmm. Which is funny, because much of your- your life has been very much the opposite, doing- making sure you don't have to do things you don't wanna do and being like restricted by the rules of others.

Karren Brady 11:57 But there is a sense in every job you do, whether you're a pop star, you've got to sing the same songs every night-

Steven Bartlett 12:03 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 12:04 ... you know, whether you're working in an office or working for someone else or reporting to shareholders, there's an element of our lives that has to be done, and you get that discipline from being able to do it and power through it and approaching it in the way it needs to be approached, which is a real discipline, as opposed to saying, "I don't wanna do it, and I'm not gonna do it." There's a difference.

Steven Bartlett 12:27 You, you said earlier about how you started, at one point, to notice the, the advantages or the skills you had over your peers at a, maybe a young age, around maybe 18 when you started to join the working world and before. What, when you looked at, say, 18, 19-year-old Karen, what were those skills that you started to notice? "Well, I'm better than... I seem to be better than everyone else at this thing," or, huh, you know, stronger or whatever.

Karren Brady 12:48 I went into sales, um, which is a sort of place where most people go when they don't really have anything else they can do- (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 12:54 Yeah. (laughs) Amen, yeah.

Karren Brady 12:55 ... where, where else they can do because

Karren Brady 12:58 you, you're either good at it or you're not. Um, but you don't need any particular skills other than being able to have resilience of picking up the phone, keep trying, not taking the knockbacks, going forward. And I realized I was good at it, and I would never take no for an answer. I would always be determined. I would continue to pick up the phone. I had a sort of dogged attitude to not letting the knocks get me down. You know, when people slam the phone down or they don't wanna speak, that ability to learn the language. It wasn't, "Do you want any?" It was, "How many do you want?" You know?

Steven Bartlett 13:32 (laughs)

Karren Brady 13:33 It was that-

Steven Bartlett 13:33 Yeah.

Karren Brady 13:33 It was that sort of-

Steven Bartlett 13:33 Yeah.

Karren Brady 13:33 ... subtle change of being able to be personable. I think I worked out at an early age that people do business with people, and it doesn't matter how much brain you have. If you don't have a personality, you can't put that brain into good, uh, you know, in- in- into a good place. So having a personality and having a brain is a, is a good combination.

Steven Bartlett 13:55 I worked in, uh, tele-sales as well for four years.

Karren Brady 13:57 Yeah, see.

Steven Bartlett 13:57 From 16 to 20-

Karren Brady 13:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:59 ... odd or whatever it was.

Karren Brady 14:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:00 And it was de- den- genuinely the most formative experience of my life-

Karren Brady 14:03 I agree.

Steven Bartlett 14:04 ... but also because I didn't have the qualifications, so it's the-

Karren Brady 14:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:06 Yeah.

Karren Brady 14:06 And it's a good place to start. I don't know about you, but I'm not particularly creative. I couldn't have done anything. (laughs) I mean, I couldn't-

Steven Bartlett 14:12 (laughs)

Karren Brady 14:12 ... have done anything in the arts world or anything like that, but actually picking up the phone, having that resilience, being prepared to take the knockbacks, keep pushing forward, never taking no for an answer, those are things I learned from a very young, young age.

Steven Bartlett 14:26 So you did sales at Saatchi & Saatchi? Was-

Karren Brady 14:28 No. I did, uh, menial office work (laughs) at Saatchi & Saatchi. And I left Saatchi to go into sales at 19, and I worked for London Broadcasting Company where we sold advertising space.

Steven Bartlett 14:38 And that's where you met David Sullivan?

Karren Brady 14:40 Yes, that's right. Yeah. He was one of my very first clients, and he took radio advertising, and within six months of me meeting him and selling him radio advertising, he was spending £2 million a year on radio, which was the highest spender on commercial radio

Karren Brady 14:57 in the country, and I was on a really high commission.

Steven Bartlett 14:59 Well done.

Karren Brady 15:00 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:01 (laughs)

Karren Brady 15:02 It was a good time. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:03 So you meet David Sullivan, and he's quite a g- well, he's not spending on radio at the, at the time when you met him, and he's kind of against it, I hear?

Karren Brady 15:09 Yeah. He didn't think it particularly worked, and I sold him the idea that he would take the advertising package, and if sales didn't go up, he didn't have to pay for it. And he said, "Yeah. Sa- sounds okay to me." And I sort of thought, "Well, uh, if he doesn't pay for it, I'm gonna be in trouble." But I thought, "I'll worry about that when that happens." I was just pleased to have made the sale. And he took the advertising, the advertising did work, and he kept spending and spending and spending.

Steven Bartlett 15:34 If we zoom in on that, that sale, that deal-

Karren Brady 15:36 (clears throat)

Steven Bartlett 15:36 ... you closed with David Sullivan, I know a lot of people couldn't have closed that deal. And I know i- that was a, a pivotal moment in your early career, but I know a lot of people couldn't have closed that deal. So, as you look back in hindsight, what was it about Karen-

Karren Brady 15:49 Oh, gosh.

Steven Bartlett 15:49 ... that helped you to close that deal?

Karren Brady 15:50 Well, one, I went to see him. So I turned up at his offices and I waited until he saw me, and I waited a long time, quite a few hours, until he felt, I think, sorry for me and I wasn't going anywhere. And he let me do the pitch, the presentation, which I did. Equally, I always had this, um, feeling that, you know, "What's the worst that could happen?" And the worst that could happen is he didn't take the package and he slung

Karren Brady 16:13 me out. But the best that could happen is that he saw me and he took the package, so I always looked on the bright side. So I turned up, I did the deal, I presented well, I had all the facts and figures, I knew what I was talking about, and I guess he thought he took a chance. I think the package was... I can't remember, but it wasn't a lot of money. You know, it wasn't a multimillion pound deal that someone would have to really think about it. I pitched it just that it would be an impulse. It could be someone that it was enough money to have a gamble. Not too much, not too little, just in, in that spot. And I persuaded him. I had this art of persuasion, talked about what it could do for him, how it would work, and he, and he took it. And that was the beginning of my, one of my very own clients that stayed with me for many years. And still today, we're still working together at West Ham some 30 years later.

Steven Bartlett 17:04 That is pretty, um, incredible. Did he know you were coming that day to pitch? Had- d- had he booked in a meeting to see you?

Karren Brady 17:10 I can't remember. I think I'd booked in a meeting. Whether he knew about that (laughs) or not, I don't know.

Steven Bartlett 17:16 Right. Right.

Karren Brady 17:16 I can't remember.

Steven Bartlett 17:17 Because that did end up being quite an early pivotal moment for you.

Karren Brady 17:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:20 It's quite, uh, a testament to the fact that, again, people do buy from people and that you are very, a very persuasive person. But also, there's a sub lesson in there which I've heard you talk about before, which is when you're young and you don't have a ton to lose, 'cause young people fall into this trap of thinking that no is some kind of, like, death sentence or it's fatal-

Karren Brady 17:36 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 17:36 ... but as you say, you know, when you've got nothing else to lose, there's-

Karren Brady 17:39 Yeah. I had nothing to lose. The worst thing that could've happened is he didn't buy it, um, and I had to sell it to someone. I was very independent. I wasn't relying on my parents for money. I was relying on myself. I had no safety net, no nest egg. I had no, you know, no... I had to pay my rent, I had to pay my bills, I had to pay my travel, I had to pay for my food, and I had to make that sale. For me, it had to happen. It w- w- it wasn't a case of, "Well, we'll, we'll, we'll see." But I'm the kind of person that never hears the word no. When someone says no to me, I don't hear no. I hear, "Find another way to get what you want." And that's what I always do. I always... I think no i- is, is only really pivotal if it ultimately stops you doing what you want to do. If you hear no and you can find another way of getting what you want, that's, that's just as good as hearing a yes.

Steven Bartlett 18:30 Am I right in thinking that you're someone that, like, really believes in a philosophy versus, like-... current skills because you're, uh, when you talk, you talk in terms of, like-

Karren Brady 18:38 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 18:38 ... your own philosophy to life. And a lot of people when they speak, they speak in terms of, I don't know, skills or hacks or tricks, whatever, but yours seems to be much deeper than that, even saying that they're defaulting to optimism all the time and, uh, um-

Karren Brady 18:51 I don't know. I've never really th- I've never really thought about it. I think you, you know, you, you, you need the ability to work hard. You need the ability to push yourself forward. You need the ability to have a backbone. You need the ability to, um, have a dogged sort of determination. And if you have a great idea, so much (laughs) the better.

Steven Bartlett 19:11 (laughs)

Karren Brady 19:11 So much the better. People say to me, you know, "What, what is an entrepreneur?" Well, an entrepreneur is someone that just spots a gap in the market for a service or a product that, that is either not available or available, but they can make it better. And they're the kind of people that well-meaning people say, "Oh, don't do that. That's very risky." But they are prepared to back themselves and put all those doubters to one side and just plow through it, and that, that's sort of been what I've done for 30 years.

Steven Bartlett 19:41 As you said, that relationship with David has sustained still today.

Karren Brady 19:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:44 And he actually went on to hire you, so what have you learned about the importance of, like, relationship building in business and...

Karren Brady 19:51 I think that, uh, part and parcel of running a great business is to have really good culture, and really good culture comes from trust and being candid and being honest and supporting one another. And it's interesting that David Sullivan is, um, is still, uh, with me in West Ham, so is David Gold, two people who I started with from a very young age, um, and we're still all working together, and we still have lots to talk about and lots of ideas and we still bounce off each other and we trust each other, and I think that's a really fundamental part of growing a great business.

Steven Bartlett 20:27 Being candid, you said there. Talk to me about how candid you are in business.

Karren Brady 20:32 Very. I think it's important. I have a great, candid atmosphere at West Ham. I want people to say what they don't think is right, what they think could be better, what needs to be changed. I think if you have too many like-minded people running the same organization, you're so busy patting each other off- on the back as you sort of follow each other off the edge of the cliff, you need people to say, "Hang on a minute, why is this important? How does this affect

Karren Brady 20:58 us? What does this, you know, what does this mean we stand for? What are our values? What's our purpose?" You need people to be honest and candid, and I think candid is good.

Steven Bartlett 21:07 And how do I go about creating a, a candid culture in, in my company? Say if I've, you know, I'm running a, a business and I want people to be more candid, what, what, what, what do I do and don't do to make sure that we arrive at that place?

Karren Brady 21:17 Well, the most important thing, the most important thing that people want from you when you're running an organization is your time. They want time with you. They want you to listen to them. They want to be in your inner circle. They wanna be part of, part of it. That's what people want. Um, it's, you know, it's become less, I think, as times have gone on, about money and status, and more about being in the know, being in that, in that room when decisions are made, and making people feel that they can be in the room, that they're part of the discussion, and that you'll listen to them, and that they can say what they want without worrying about, you know, what's gonna happen to me next? I think that's, that's really important.

Steven Bartlett 22:04 So say if someone's in the boardroom with you and they, they say something which is maybe even-

Karren Brady 22:09 (clears throat)

Steven Bartlett 22:09 ... negative towards a decision you've made. I guess you've gotta be cautious of your reaction to make sure that they don't, in the future, shy away from... Because you're a very powerful woman, you know, it would be quite intimidating to tell you the truth-

Karren Brady 22:21 I don't think-

Steven Bartlett 22:22 ... for some people.

Karren Brady 22:22 ... I think if you spoke to my staff, they, or the people that I work with, they would all say that the one thing Karen is great at is listening and understanding, and I think the minute you think, as the leader of an organization, you know everything, is the minute you don't know anything at all. You have to believe in lifelong learning. You have to believe that the people around you are valuable enough to have a different opinion to yours that is just as important, and the minute you think they, they don't have an opinion that's important as yours, you either don't have the right team or you don't have the right team with the right skills. I like to employ people better than me because it sort of proves I'm better than them, if that makes sense.

Steven Bartlett 23:05 (laughs)

Karren Brady 23:05 And then when you have people with, um, great knowledge and great skills, why wouldn't you listen to them-

Steven Bartlett 23:11 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 23:11 ... when they tell you something? I mean, of course you have debates. I wanna do everything quickly. I wanna do everything, um, with strength and power and purpose, and others are like, "Well, hang on a minute, let's not go at that pace, let's try and do this, let's do something." And sometimes you follow your gut instinct because it's important, and people say to me, "Well, what, what is a gut instinct?" A gut instinct, I think, it's made up of all the experiences you've had through your career, and you've sort of, when you're in- faced with a problem, you've been in that movie before.

Steven Bartlett 23:48 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 23:49 You've had that problem before, a different problem-

Steven Bartlett 23:52 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 23:52 ... in a different moment about a different thing, but very similar, and you know the outcome, so your gut instinct goes, "Hang on a minute, I've, I've, I've somehow, I've been here before-"

Steven Bartlett 24:02 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 24:02 "... and I know how this plays out." And I find if I follow my get- in- gut instinct, I tend to go make the right decisions, and if I ignore it, I tend to go bad. But sometimes y- you need someone to go, "Hang on a minute, take a step back-"

Steven Bartlett 24:15 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 24:15 "... have another look at this, have a think about this," and it's a very, uh, it's a very lonely place if you don't have people around you that want the same things as you, that wanna help you achieve and build the things that you, you, you want to do, and being able to listen to people and encourage people to have their thoughts and ideas is, I think, really, really important.

Steven Bartlett 24:40 So how much o- of an organization that you, you run and what parts of it are a democracy? 'Cause I'm trying to see that balance between you being assertive and making the, the call, but also operating in some respects like a bit of a democracy where you're hearing everyone's opinions. Is there, like, a balancing act?

Karren Brady 24:57 Yeah. I mean, look, if you think about leadership, um, and you should never confuse leadership with management. Management is about setting out a series of goals and managing people to deliver them, very important, but that's not leadership.

Karren Brady 25:11 Leadership is about (laughs) vision, and sometimes it's only a vision you can see. And your art as a leader is to persuade people to believe in your vision and help you deliver it. So we have large groups of people that help deliver visions. So our next vision for West Ham, for example, is to go from a 60,000 capacity to a 62 and a half thousand capacity, and we're in the process, we've got planning permission for it, we're in the process of going through that transition. Um, how do we sell those extra tickets? Who do we sell them to? Do we put the price up? Where do we allocate them? How do people get in? Should there be more bars? Th- these are huge decisions. One person cannot make those decisions, and everybody who has a stake in that decision should have a say, and that's everyone from the commercial department right through to, you know, the person who runs the disabled supporters group. Everyone needs to make that decision together, and that's how you bre- breed great culture, listening to people, understanding the problems, finding the solutions together, having some fun while you do it so it's not all, you know, over charts and in a, in a very, um, rigid way. It is much more in a conversational way. So for example, I took a load of my team to Seville when we played in Europa, and we went together, we had a great time together. We used the downtime to talk about things important to us, and it's part and parcel of creating a place where people feel really proud to work, they feel really proud of what they do, and they feel really well-respected.

Steven Bartlett 26:58 And they have a lot of fun, clearly.

Karren Brady 26:59 And they have a lot of fun.

Steven Bartlett 27:00 Yeah.

Karren Brady 27:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:01 I just realized, I'm playing at your stadium.

Karren Brady 27:04 Oh, is it? In the, um, the Soccer Aid?

Steven Bartlett 27:07 Yes.

Karren Brady 27:08 Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 27:10 (laughs) Hopefully that will, uh, sell it out for you. But, um, no, yeah, I just realized as you were talking then, yeah, you're playing at the... Unbelievable, beautiful stadium-

Karren Brady 27:17 Yeah, it's fabulous.

Steven Bartlett 27:17 ... which I know you're, you're a big part of getting, uh, winning the bid to kind of move over there. On the topic... I'm really excited, by the way. What a tremendous honor that is to get to play, uh, at your stadium. But, um, on the topic of football then, you know, so

Steven Bartlett 27:29 David Sullivan ends up hiring you from LBC.

Karren Brady 27:31 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 27:32 And you join his corporation.

Karren Brady 27:34 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 27:34 And then I hear at, like, 22, 23 years old, you see an advert in the Financial Times to, for Birmingham City, which was in financial hardship-

Karren Brady 27:43 Yes, it was in administration.

Steven Bartlett 27:45 ... and you persuade, and you persuaded David to buy-

Karren Brady 27:47 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 27:48 ... Birmingham C- What? (laughs)

Karren Brady 27:52 Well, he, to be fair to him, he was looking at buying either a race course or a football club. He was interested in doing something in that area. And F- Birmingham had gone into administration and there was a little ad that said, "Football club for sale," and I thought, "That's interesting," and I got the details. And I went to him, I said, "There's this football club for sale. You buy it and I'll run it."

Steven Bartlett 28:12 What?

Karren Brady 28:13 And he was like, "Whoa, football, very male-dominated. You'll have to be twice as good as the men to be thought as even only half as good." And I said, "Well, luckily that's not difficult." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:21 (laughs)

Karren Brady 28:21 And he said, "Okay, well give it a go," and, and we did. And it was bought really quickly within three days. It, that was like a Friday, and on the Tuesday we owned the club, and that was it. We, uh, we went in there, we, we made so many mistakes, but we had a great time. It was such a fantastic experience, you know, to be given the challenge and chance of a lifetime to run a great business and change it, take it out of administration. I mean, it made a trading profit for the first time in its history, um, after my first year, and it was a real learning curve, uh, but it was great fun.

Steven Bartlett 28:54 I love how you glossed over the fact so graciously that at 23 you took over the management of a football club after seeing an advert in the Financial Times and persuading David to buy it. You took over the management of a football club at 23.

Karren Brady 29:06 Yes. I was desperate to look at least 25. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 29:11 (laughs) Like the press conferences-

Karren Brady 29:11 I told a friend there was a big hair shoulder pads power dressing, so...

Steven Bartlett 29:17 Did you just have the c- the courage and the conviction and the confidence to take on that role? Because football is a complete... Like, I don't even think, no, I definitely would not have the, the confidence to run a football club. And I, I've, I've loved football, I've followed it my whole life, I've ran big businesses, but a football club is a whole different beast.

Karren Brady 29:34 It is sli- it is different, and it's different because w- it doesn't make anything, it doesn't manufacture anything, it doesn't produce anything other than more footballers. All its assets are people. So being able to manage people and to manage the diversity of those pe- And it comes back to that culture, by having an environment where everyone has to do everything within their skill set to make the business a success and know that that is valued and respected, and there is no, uh, ceiling on your ambition, whether it's the 18-year-old that wants to go into the first team or the 18-year-old who works in the ticket office that one day wants to run it. It's up to you where you go, and I wanted to create a sort of, uh, uh, a business that I wanted to work in when I was 18 where you, y- you, was nothing holding you back. There was no politics, there was no age, you know, there was no discrimination whatsoever. The o- it was there for you to do and achieve what you wanted to achieve within our environment.And that's why football is different because some people can't get their heads around the fact of what football is, um, and they begrudge it if they're not playing well, they- they- they don't f- you know, y- y- part and parcel of managing people is understanding people and respecting people and valuing people and giving people your time and your encouragement. But more importantly than that, it's about standing alongside people and supporting them when things are not going well, much more than when things are going well, um, being their backbone and their, uh, and their support system, very important in a people's business.

Steven Bartlett 31:19 As well as that culture, what else was it that helped you take Birmingham in... 'Cause your stint at Birmingham is seen as being incredibly successful, as- as you say, like turned the club profitable for the first time in, like, recent history. What... How did you do that? Outside of culture, w- there must have been tough decisions you had to make.

Karren Brady 31:35 Very. There were loads. I mean, from when I first went there to sort of getting rid of everybody. Lots of businesses that I am involved in or I know friends that run, the biggest issue for lots of people that run those businesses is making the change to personnel when they need to because they find it very difficult if someone's been with them a long time to realize, "Actually, that person's skillset was great when we were growing the business and now we need a different skillset to take it to the next level." But you think, "But that's John. John's been with us from..." It's very difficult, but you have to sort of step above that and say, "It's my responsibility to ensure this business' success for the 800 people that work there and the shareholders and everything it stands for." So you have to make the best decisions and you have to try and remove as much emotion as you can out of it, but also always doing the right thing for the right reason and not for any other reason. And I think one of the most important things in a people business is you must never underestimate the power of kindness, being kind to people and being respectful of people is really important.

Steven Bartlett 32:45 I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. We often see the success of a business and forget about their humble beginnings, and Vodafone, who is one of the new sponsors of my podcast, is no exception to that. In fact, quite an inspiring story. They started above a curry shop in the center of Newbury in Berkshire and that was the year that they made the first ever mobile phone call over 1G. That was a moment in history. And they've continued to innovate ever since. They supported the very first SMS text over 2G and most recently, they've made history again, this time through 5G internet with the UK's first holographic call. But what I love about Vodafone Business and one of the reasons I partnered with them, is they want to enable others to go on the same journey that they've been on with innovation. They have so much support to help specifically small businesses thrive. Their V Hub site offers free resources, insights, and expert one-on-one sessions with V Hub digital advisors so you can access what's needed to embrace innovation and drive your business forward just by searching "V Hub" for Vodafone on Google and you can access all of the support I've described above. The link is in the description below. Quick one. As many of you know, I've been trying to make my life a little bit more sustainable as it relates to energy ever since I sold my Range Rover Sport and bought an electric bicycle and Myenergi, as a sponsor of this podcast, are one of the brands that make that transition much, much easier. They are at the forefront of British renewable eco-smart technology and their products are really, really changing the game. If you're on YouTube, you can see what I'm holding in my hand. This is called the eddi, right? It's the UK's number one solar powered diverter. So what is a solar diverter? It's a device for people like you and me. That means you can divert your excess energy back into your home rather than back into the grid which will save you power and money. It's super user-friendly and easy to install, and you can control it using the Myenergi app on your phone. To find out more about this product and more products like it that will help you make that sustainable transition, head over to myenergi.com and, um, I highly recommend you check out the eddi. It's, um, it's a real game-changer of a product and one that I'm gonna be installing in my home soon. (page turns) I think David Solomon, um, when he described you, and much of the reason why he had this- uh, has this huge admiration for you is exactly that. I think he, in- in an interview said you were a good... sucker. (laughs)

Karren Brady 35:05 I think what he probably meant was I wasn't afraid to make tough decisions.

Steven Bartlett 35:09 Yeah.

Karren Brady 35:09 And, uh, and some of them were really tough.

Steven Bartlett 35:11 Even at 23?

Karren Brady 35:12 Yeah. Even at 23. I really had a clear vision of what I wanted to achieve and knew the kind of people I needed around me to achieve it.

Steven Bartlett 35:21 You talked about how emotion sometimes gets in the way of those tough decisions for a lot of people. I've seen the same thing in- in businesses when they get a little bit romantic about the wrong objective basically, or the wrong thing, and that ends up compromising what should be their primary objective which is the company, you know, in their role as CEO or founder or whatever. And I've also heard you say that emotion... Well, maybe that was the- the headline of the article. You've described yourself as not being an overly emotional person but the- the article I read, I remember the headline was, um, "Emotion isn't in her makeup." So something to... Words to that effect. Does that res- resonate with you? Is that something... Do you think... consider yourself to be an emotional business person?

Karren Brady 35:59 I'm very logical as a person.

Steven Bartlett 36:01 Okay.

Karren Brady 36:01 I don't worry about

Karren Brady 36:04 the effect on me of any decision that I make as long as I feel it's the right decision. I worry about the effects it has on others, um, but I'm... I don't get overly emotional about things to me which are unimportant, whether that be criticism on social media or criticism wherever that comes from. As long as I know the decision I've made and why I've made that decision, I can stand by it, and I care much more about what my family and my friends and my colleagues think of me than someone on social media who I'm never gonna meet, don't know, I'm- I'm never gonna have a conversation with. So I'm not emotional from that point of view.

Steven Bartlett 36:47 When you take on a football club as well, and you've worked in football clubs for, what, two decades, three decades almost?

Karren Brady 36:51 Three.

Steven Bartlett 36:52 Three decades now. You're dealing with emotional fan bases, just like hes- hysterical... I, I know because I'm a Manchester United fan and we're very, you know, emotional as a fan base right now. But a, a hysterical, almost unpleasable, thankless fan base it seems at times. So, how has that impacted you? The like, the voice of the fan base in your decision-making? Does it factor in?

Karren Brady 37:13 Every decision I make, I make for them. To make them prouder of the football club, to bring them the success that they want, to deliver the things they want to see at the football club and the way they want to see them. Whether that's what we did through the pandemic for our community, what we continue to do for our community, the fact that we keep our prices low, the fact that we promised them European football and we've delivered it, the fact that we have great players, a great culture and a great manager. Every, every decision I make, I don't make for myself, I make for them, and I do it to the very best of my ability. And sometimes they don't like those decisions, and sometimes they don't agree with those decisions, but they're all done because it's what I consider to be for the best of the club.

Steven Bartlett 38:08 And also, I guess, sometimes they don't understand those decisions because the fan base isn't... o- of any football club isn't a fan base that's educated on business and finance and the inner workings of a club. So there's lots of, like, misconceptions about w- the decisions that are being made and are they, like, self-profiting decisions or whatever. How important is transparency in running... I, I would say in any business, but really in a football club where you've got millions of people who are your, I guess, your stakeholders, how... And, like, clubs don't seem to be that transparent, largely.

Karren Brady 38:39 I think it's hugely important. Um, and I think f- I think football supporters are very knowledgeable on the business of football. It may not be a priority for them, but I think they are knowledgeable. I mean, they... You've looked at clubs that have had a really difficult financial time and having a firm foundation on which to build, they know is important, and it's equally, eh, you know, eh, that it's important that they know the parameters. I mean, we're, we're not, w- you know, oligarchs or Saudi Arabian billionaires. We're, we're English taxpayers, we do the best we can and we generate as much money as we can without

Karren Brady 39:17 putting that burden onto them, which is why we have the cheapest season tickets in the Premier League, let alone in London in a brand new stadium. So we try and go on the journey together. But, I mean, moving to the Olympic Stadium, uh, 54,000 season ticket holders completely sold out. Some people didn't like it, but you have to make a decision that you think is right for the right reason, and going from a 35,000 seater stadium to a, what is gonna be a 62 and a half seater stadium was a big move and a bold move, and it has proved to, to work out for us, which is why we're now playing in Europe. Would, would that have happened if we were at Upton Park? Probably not, because it hadn't happened for many decades before that. So, I think people don't like change, and it's important that they understand why the change happens and what it means to them and how it's gonna affect them and how, hopefully, it, it enriches their life as opposed to makes it, makes it worse.

Steven Bartlett 40:13 Do you have an objective at West Ham to, um, be more transparent? The recent event that comes to mind around transparency in football is obviously the, it was like the European Super League thing-

Karren Brady 40:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:24 ... where suddenly one day we all wake up and all of our favorite football clubs in the like, the top eight or whatever, not even in, in the top eight, but, had decided they were all gonna join-

Karren Brady 40:31 Six.

Steven Bartlett 40:31 Top six, yeah.

Karren Brady 40:32 They're not even the top six.

Steven Bartlett 40:33 Yeah, it wasn't even the top six. Like-

Karren Brady 40:34 But they, they, there were six of them. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:34 It's... Yeah, exactly. It's like, I can't even say that Manchester United are, were at the point, but, um, they d- decided to join this, this super league in Europe, and it seemed like it was just this, like, self-profiting decision which kind of ruined football or whatever. And after that, I saw s- a little bit of a change in some clubs, like Liverpool, that the owners came out and did like a video apologizing. It was the first time I'd seen like owners post a video of them talking on social media. Is this one of your objectives within the organization that you run at West Ham? To be more open and more of a glass box?

Karren Brady 41:05 We t- try to let our manager and our team do the talking for us-

Steven Bartlett 41:09 Okay.

Karren Brady 41:10 ... 'cause, because the, the supporters don't wanna hear what the CEO thinks, they wanna know what the team think and the manager thinks. And I think from our point of view, we're always very respectful of that. You know, some chairmen write program notes, some chairmans do videos. We tend to want our team to, to do the talking for us, and we don't really want to put any more pressure on them and the manager than they all put on themselves, because they're the ones that put the pressure on themselves to be successful. Um, they don't need it from us.

Steven Bartlett 41:42 As I look throughout your whole life, one of the clear, consistent themes in you is your hard work.

Karren Brady 41:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:49 It's just like, eh, you know, and sometimes it looks a little bit like obsession in certain parts of your story.

Karren Brady 41:53 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:53 I read about the fridge not being turned on in your apartment-

Karren Brady 41:56 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:56 ... and someone saying, "Why didn't-"

Karren Brady 41:56 My friend, my friend came to live with me and she said, um, "The, there's sticky stuff still round the fridge," and the oven had never been turned on and I'd... Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:05 What age was that?

Karren Brady 42:08 21.

Steven Bartlett 42:09 And you just, you were working so hard you hadn't turned the fridge on, you were s- in the office so much?

Karren Brady 42:13 Well, the thought of cooking and eating at home never occurred to me. I'd always grab something on the way in or the way out. Would never... The thought of actually buying food, because I knew if I bought food it would just go, go off.

Steven Bartlett 42:26 People talk about work/life balance, right? And this like obsessive, like t-

Karren Brady 42:29 They do these days-

Steven Bartlett 42:30 Yeah, they do these days.

Karren Brady 42:31 ... Steven, in, in when I was starting (laughs) those, that phrase had never been uttered by anyone.

Steven Bartlett 42:37 What's your opinion of the, the work/life balance conversation?

Karren Brady 42:40 Oh, I think it's, uh, much more sensible-

Steven Bartlett 42:44 (laughs)

Karren Brady 42:44 ... than anything I did, definitely. I think that, you know, in, in my day, you started at the bottom of the

Karren Brady 42:52 run, and you worked your way up very slowly and carefully to get as high up the ladder as you could. Whereas now, it feels much more like a web, where you do a bit over here and a bit over there and go and change and do that, and then don't like that and you go and do this, um, and you have a much more rounded life. And I think technology has changed how we all work. I mean, you know, y- you getting up at six o'clock in the morning to be in the office at 7:00, and staying till eight o'clock at night, you don't have to do that now, and I think that's so much for the better.

Steven Bartlett 43:23 Uh, so do you live a more rounded life?

Karren Brady 43:25 Definitely.

Steven Bartlett 43:26 Yeah?

Karren Brady 43:27 Yeah, definitely. I don't go into my office at the crack of dawn and sit there all day and expect everybody else with their old ball and chain to be there. I mean, I, I know from having a family and a career that actually having flexibility is really important, and giving staff the ability to come in when they need to and work from home when they want to is important.

Steven Bartlett 43:49 But I guess you didn't always because... I remember you, uh, reading the story about your son turning to you on a holiday and saying, "I wish your BlackBerry would blow up, Mum," or something.

Karren Brady 43:56 Yes. Working mother is the best title for me because there's two things that are very important in my life, and that is my family and my work, and I've tried my very best to, to make those things work together. Sometimes you don't get it right. Sometimes you have to decide that family is more important than work, or work has a priority that's more important than family, and you have to try and juggle, and you spend your whole life going sports day, board meeting, um, parents evening, board meeting, you know, and you never know where you can be, and until you come to the conclusion that you cannot be in all the places you need to be, you, you, you can only do the best you can do, it's a sort of relief. And sure, my kids will always say I worked throughout their whole growing up, um, but they learn different things from a working parent. The ability to be independent, have, uh, ambition, to value yourself, to work hard, those are, those are very good lessons as well.

Steven Bartlett 45:05 And do you set aside time to, like, switch off, as they say?

Karren Brady 45:08 I don't need to switch off.

Steven Bartlett 45:09 Interesting.

Karren Brady 45:10 I mean, nothing's work unless you'd rather be doing something else, I find, and there are times when I think, "Oh, God, I gotta, could go and do that, like, today." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 45:19 (laughs) No, I'm only joking. I'm only joking. But there are times when you go, "Oh, I've got to go and do that," and you know, you feel that sort of, "Argh." But the one thing, this drive for independence, it also comes with another added bonus, and that added bonus is the ability to say no. If I don't wanna do anything, all I have to say is no, "No, thank you." When you're building a career, you have to say yes to everything, and you have to say yes even when you so want to say no, and you say yes, you think, "How do I get out of this?" and you try and think- (laughs)

Karren Brady 45:50 ... of a million, a million things, you know, a million excuses, uh, to get out of it. But when you are independent, you can say no, and i- it's a great freedom to not have any obligation where you have to... you don't have to say yes to anything. You can say no if you don't wanna do something, and you say yes when you wanna do it, and you tend to enjoy that balance of your life a lot more.

Steven Bartlett 46:15 We met in Saudi Arabia. For anybody that doesn't know, that was the first time we'd met, and I'd watched you on, you know, t- tv growing up, but in Saudi Arabia, we were on stage together. We were in a panel of five, and what happened on this stage, I actually came back and told all my team, and I said, "I absolutely... I love her," right? So-

Karren Brady 46:31 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 46:31 ... I don't know if you know what I'm about to say.

Karren Brady 46:33 I don't.

Steven Bartlett 46:33 You don't? Okay. So, we're on stage, um, in Saudi Arabia, kind of like a Dragon's Den style thing where these entrepreneurs are coming up and pitching to us, and one of the panelists, one of the male panelists to my left, um, you went to ask a question, right? I don't know if you remember. You went to ask a question of the entrepreneur that was pitching to us, and then one of the male panelists to my left, he kind of, like, interrupted you and c- and spoke and carried on speaking, and you waited about 30 seconds. You let him finish his, kind of, interruption, and then in front of m- what, what must've been 1,000 plus people, you turned to him, very calmly said, "One second, I asked my question first," and then you carried on with your question, and the whole audience burst into applause.

Karren Brady 47:15 I do remember that (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 47:16 Do you remember? (laughs) Yeah.

Karren Brady 47:17 I do remember that.

Steven Bartlett 47:19 And I'm-

Karren Brady 47:19 Uh.

Steven Bartlett 47:19 ... sat there like, "Whoa!"

Karren Brady 47:20 I do remember that. I do remember that. I was really

Karren Brady 47:24 quite annoyed.

Steven Bartlett 47:25 Really?

Karren Brady 47:25 Um, I was annoyed because we'd gone to Saudi... Well, I'd gone to Saudi to talk about the importance of women and our rights and being respected, uh, and then to be spoken over on a stage, I was not gonna let that go under any circumstances. And I think it was a good way of being able to show how it's important to stand up for yourself and not to be walked all over, and I certainly was not gonna be walked all over.

Steven Bartlett 47:54 And everyone in the room understood that moment-

Karren Brady 47:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:58 ... for the big significance you described there because they thought-

Karren Brady 48:00 Yeah, it was in a very unemotional, professional-

Steven Bartlett 48:02 Y- yeah, yeah.

Karren Brady 48:03 ... way. It wasn't in a...

Steven Bartlett 48:04 It was the most classy, like, wonderful-

Karren Brady 48:07 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:07 ... polite way to destroy someone. (laughs) I'm joking. It was like...

Karren Brady 48:12 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:13 The, the... But that's why I said to my team after, I was like, "She... the way she did it was so, like, classly, c- classy, and, like, gracious, but it made such a profound point," and you could tell the point was made because the whole room burst into applause. But this kind of brings me onto a wider point about... and, uh, as you say, the reason why you're in Saudi, is this battle that I know you've had through your career with men, kind of, underestimating you or sexism, which I guess started when you first got the job at Birmingham?

Karren Brady 48:37 Yeah. I mean, I remember my first, um-... away game, I think it was Watford, and I turned up and I said, "Oh, hi. Could you tell me where the boardroom is?" And this little old boy, a little steward on the desk, he went, "Oh, director's wives over there," and I said, "That's interesting, but where, where is the boardroom?" And he said, "Dear, you don't understand. The director's wives go in the ladies room." And I said, "No, I, I don't think it's you understands. I am the managing director, so I wanna know where the boardroom is." And this little boy put his little glasses on, and he went, "Oh, yes." He said, "Yes, you're that woman. Stay here and I'll find out what to do with you." (laughs) Because there were no other women in football, so there was never a woman in the boardroom, and women weren't, you know, weren't welcome in, in boardrooms because it was meant to be the place where the directors all met, and of course they were all men. And I remember thinking that it was the very first door I'd kick down, and I was determined that I would keep that door open as wide and as long as possible to get as many other women through as possible, and that is something I've spent my last 30 years doing. It's really important to me. It's really important that, that there is a sense of equality and equal pay and equal respect for everything that you do, regardless of where you're from, what sex you are, what your beliefs are, how you look, where you're educated. Equality is very important to me.

Steven Bartlett 50:00 Why do you think it's so important to you in particular?

Karren Brady 50:03 I think because, look, at 23, I was given the challenge and chance of a lifetime, and I took that, and I knew that that started with someone having trust in me. And I knew that there were so many talented people out there that didn't have someone that had that trust in them, and I wanted to be that person.

Steven Bartlett 50:25 Did you experience, um, sort of sexist behavior from the players?

Karren Brady 50:30 Occasionally, but nothing that I couldn't deal with. I mean, I was very lucky in a sense that from 16 to 18, I went to a boarding school that was predominantly all boys. So, it had girls in the sixth form. So, they had, like, I don't know, 20 girls and 600 boys.

Steven Bartlett 50:48 Hmm.

Karren Brady 50:48 So, being surrounded with young men who all had something to say, and knowing how to deal with that was something that stood me in good te- good stead-

Steven Bartlett 50:58 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 50:58 ... for my career. So, it wasn't difficult for me, and I didn't get fazed by it, and it didn't upset me, and I wasn't emotionally damaged, and I didn't feel scarred, and I didn't feel I had to go crying to anyone.

Steven Bartlett 51:09 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 51:10 I, I, I could deal with it, it didn't faze me, and it was an irrelevance of mine.

Steven Bartlett 51:15 One of the things that I've noticed, specifically in the, like, Black community, is... Or one of the concerns I had growing up was I'd see in some of my Black friends that the belief that they were, they were at a disadvantage actually seemed to hurt them more than the disadvantage itself, if that makes sense. Do y- do you have the same concern, that worrying too much that you might not get in will stop you from taking the actions to get in, if that makes sense?

Karren Brady 51:42 I'm sure every, every woman at some point in their career when they've had to say, "Shall I stop to have a family?"

Steven Bartlett 51:52 Hmm.

Karren Brady 51:52 "What is that gonna... You know, How is that going to affect me? How is that going to affect my pay, my career prospects, my promotion, my standing?" I'm sure every woman a- at that point has had that, that thought, and unfortunately, or fortunately, as we... you know, women give birth to all the taxpayers in the world, we deserve a break, really. So, I'm sure it is a thought that crosses people's mind. I mean, I read some research that 54,000 returning new mothers to work are so badly treated because they are considered to be a burden to the teams in which they work. People are gonna think they're gonna wanna go early, they're not gonna be as focused, they're gonna have brain fog, that they are either hounded out of their jobs or choose to leave, and that's a shocking statistic, really.

Steven Bartlett 52:40 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 52:41 Um, so yeah, I, I can see how people are just, you know, waiting for that moment when someone... You know, when you do have to say, "I might have to go and pick my son up from school, I have to leave early," it's a difficult conversation, and you're considered to be, you know, less valuable because you have these, these, these real other issues. So, I, I can understand how it plays on people's mind, but it's important for women like me to change attitudes, 'cause if I don't do, if, if women like me achieve something, if we don't use our voice to change it for the next generation, who's gonna do it?

Steven Bartlett 53:19 One of my guests pointed out to me, um, a couple of weeks ago that when a woman is successful and she's a mother, people always ask the question, like, "Oh, my God, how do you, how do you do it?"

Karren Brady 53:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:28 Whereas when a guy's successful, even if he's a father-

Karren Brady 53:30 Never asks.

Steven Bartlett 53:30 ... no one, no one cares about that.

Karren Brady 53:31 No. Well, no one asks.

Steven Bartlett 53:32 No one asks, yeah.

Karren Brady 53:33 'Cause they presume he's got a wife-

Steven Bartlett 53:34 Yeah.

Karren Brady 53:34 ... who's doing it for him.

Steven Bartlett 53:37 Yeah, like Joe Wicks. Joe Wicks has been here once or twice, and when Joe Wicks is doing all of his stuff, P for Joe, et cetera, no one is on his Instagram going, "What about the kids?"

Karren Brady 53:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:46 (laughs) But, um, we've had women entrepreneurs that have been here who do a very, very similar thing to Joe Wicks, and it's the question that they get asked all over their Instagram. If they do a workout on their social media, it's like, "Well, where are the kids?"

Karren Brady 53:57 But I think there's two reasons for that. One is, other women want to know how do you manage that, so you can inspire me to, to, to find a way. Um, and the other is because it's a, it's an easy thing to ask a woman, and that's the lazy question. You know, "Where are your kids? What do you do with your kids? How do you manage with your kids?" It's a bit like when whenever, you know, whenever there's a picture of a, uh, a woman, uh, there's always what she's wearing.

Steven Bartlett 54:27 Yeah.

Karren Brady 54:28 Uh, whereas never for a man.

Steven Bartlett 54:30 Yeah.

Karren Brady 54:30 Maybe because women wear better clothes, I don't know. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 54:33 Yeah, I think it is. (laughs) Yeah.

Karren Brady 54:33 But it's always about, "What you wearing? Where'd you get it? How much was it?"

Steven Bartlett 54:36 Hmm.

Karren Brady 54:36 Um, and it's always defined you, you know? "Uh, so-and-so in her bright pink jacket."

Steven Bartlett 54:43 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 54:43 They don't say, "Oh, Steven in his black s-," you know, "tuxedo." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 54:45 I wish they did, but I just... Clearly, you are interested in that, aren't you?I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. As the seasons have begun to change, so has my diet. And, um, right now, I'm just gonna be completely honest with you, I'm starting to think a lot about slimming down a little bit because over the last couple of, probably the last four or five months, my diet has been pretty bad, um, and it's started to show a little bit, really over the last two months. I go to the gym about 80% of the time, so I track it with 10 of my friends in a WhatsApp group, in this tracker line that we all use together. We call it Fitness Blockchain. And I'm currently at 81%, um, so 81% of the days I've done a workout in the last 150 days. Right? So I'm going to the gym about six times a week. That's been a little bit impacted by the Diary of a CEO Live tour, but I'm trying to stick to it. And so one of the things that I'm doing now to reduce my calorie intake and trying to get back to being nutritionally complete in all I eat is I'm having the Huel protein shake. Thank you, Huel, for making a product that I actually like. The salted caramel is my favorite. I've got the banana one here, which is the one my girlfriend likes, but for me, salted caramel is the one. (page turns) Paul, your husband, Paul-

Karren Brady 55:56 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 55:56 ... been together since 1995. I think you met him at Birmingham.

Karren Brady 55:59 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 56:00 He was- he was, like, the star player. How has that been, you know, being such a career-driven person, um, who's had these fairly all-consuming jobs throughout the years? You know, it's funny, when I... it's... there's an interesting thing that happens in the comments section when I... 'cause I ask every single guest every single podcast about relationships. It's something I'm just really intrigued by 'cause I've struggled over the years with my work and trying to balance a relationship. But when I ask women this, people are... again, I understand why, they assume that I'm asking it because... for the same reasons we've just described, like I'm trying to understand how you can be a wife but also hardworking.

Karren Brady 56:35 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 56:35 So I just wanna put that out there 'cause I see it a lot in the comments section. But, no, I- I'm really curious, you know, you've been this pretty relentless entrepreneur for the last three decades, whatever it's been. How has it been to- to manage a relationship and be that person, um, and a partner, while also being the tremendous businesswoman?

Karren Brady 56:52 Well, um, you have to remember that we've been married a very long time, and when we first got together, Paul's career was much more dominant than mine really, and, uh, he was traveling around, playing at different clubs, playing for his country. And I was the one staying at home looking after the kids, having my career and- and working around that, and he was the one going around. And then he, uh, retired

Karren Brady 57:17 from football, and my career took off a bit, and then he became a football manager, and I stayed home more with the kids. And we sort of... we balanced our- our lives to give each other the space to do the things that we love, that make us rounded individuals. I have no jealousy of anything he does and equally to me. So, for example, when I'm filming The Apprentice, um, I don't know wh- how it- how it works on- on Dragon's Den, but when we film The Apprentice, when it says, "It's 4:00 AM," the voiceover says, "It's 4:00 AM," it really is 4:00 AM, and we work 16 to 18 hours a day, seven days a week for five weeks to produce that show without a break. There isn't a day off. And it is really hard-going. So I always say to Paul it's much better if he's not there because I wanna get up at 4:00 in the morning, have a bath, put the lights on, turn the television on, leave when I want, then get back maybe 8:00 at night, go straight to bed, ready for a 4:00 AM start the following day or whatever it is. So he goes to Canada to see his family 'cause his parents live in Canada, and he has a great time with his family, and I can focus on what I have to do without any distractions. Because what happens during that period is, let's say, he might say, um, "Shall we go out for dinner tonight?" And I'll say, "Yes," and then I don't get home because filming's overrun, and I'm not home 'til 1:00 in the morning. And then he's like, "Oh, are you coming? Are you not coming?" And I c- I just... it- it's too much. It's... on, uh, top of everything else, it's too much. It's much better if I have my space to do what I've got to do and he has his space to do what he's got to do. But the one thing that we have in common is we've built a great family, and we- we respect each other. We love our kids. Our kids are our whole life, even though they are, you know, 25 and 23. We... everything is about our family and everything we do together is- is really important. And I have to say, if you said to me, "You've got one day left on the Earth, what would you do with it?" I'd wanna spend it with my husband and my two kids because we have such a great laugh together, and we're good friends, and there's a real bond of family between us.

Steven Bartlett 59:28 How important is it to be candid? 'Cause it... that's kind of what you were describing there, being so candid with how your feeling and what you're going through. A lot of people don't have that in relationships. They're not-

Karren Brady 59:35 Oh, we're definitely candid. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 59:37 Um.

Karren Brady 59:38 We're definitely candid.

Steven Bartlett 59:39 And how important is that, do you think? I'm asking for myself now.

Karren Brady 59:41 I think s- I think it's really important because you can't pretend to be someone you're not. It's a bit like in an early part of a relationship. I've got a friend who's hav-... got an early part of a relationship and the guy she is with likes the opera. She cannot stand it.

Steven Bartlett 59:57 (laughs)

Karren Brady 59:58 But she's saying, "Oh, yes, love the opera." And I'm like, "Why don't you just say, 'Hate the opera'?" Couldn't think of anything I'd rather do less. Because when he finds out actually you hate the opera and then... or- or you find out you've gotta go more to the opera and you're gonna resent it, why not just be honest from the start? Say, "I c-... I really can't stand the opera." You go, you have a nice time, let me know what it's like. I think it's probably... our relationship is not needy, so he doesn't need me, I don't need him. We want to be together, but we don't need to be together. I don't need to know where he is every minute of the day. I don't need to know what his thoughts are on every single thing or everything I do. I think if he could have me a little bit more needy, probably would, but he knows that I'm very self-sufficient and don't need much from anyone. Um, and I think that's, again, going from boarding school where you're very much on your own, you like your own company.But we, we don't, we don't ... There's not neediness in the relationship where, uh ... L- I say to him, "Oh, I've been invited to go, um, to, to Buckingham Palace for, um, dinner with the queen." I, it, and it's in White Tie, he says, "Oh, I'm not going to that. I'm not ... R- White Tie? No, I'm not going to White Tie." And he won't come, like, he's not ... If he doesn't want to come to anything, he won't come. Uh, and I'll say, "Ooh, I've got this, you know, thing. Do you fancy doing that?" And he'll say, "No, definitely not." Or he'll say, "Shall we? I fancy doing this," and I'll say, "No, I don't want to do that." So we're, we're very candid with each other and it works for us.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:30 This is the single biggest mistake I made at the start of my relationship. When me and my girlfriend had a conversation and we discussed it, was I was saying yes too much to things to try and please, 'cause you feel like that's what's needed. Whereas, I came to learn over the years, and I've literally had this conversation with my girlfriend over the last month, that in fact I need to just be honest more regardless of how I think it might impact her, so.

Karren Brady 1:01:52 Because you see, you're saying yes when you really wanna say no.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:54 Yeah.

Karren Brady 1:01:55 And then you've got this sort of underlying resentment.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:58 Yeah.

Karren Brady 1:01:58 And it's much better to just say no and suffer the consequences. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:02:01 Yet now-

Karren Brady 1:02:01 Yeah, definitely.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:02 ... versus forever, because as you said with the opera, I then have to try and live out this life forever. (laughs)

Karren Brady 1:02:07 Exactly. Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:09 I live with

Narrator 1:02:09 too late.

Karren Brady 1:02:09 And I think it's important to have your own space and your own friends and do your own thing. Um, you know, you're married but you're not joined at the hip. And there's, of course there has to be a level of mutual respect there, and, and honesty and trust and all of those things. That goes without saying. But you're not the same person.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:26 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 1:02:26 And it is okay to have different interests.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:29 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 1:02:29 And it is okay ... My husband is a gym bunny, he's a professional athlete. He's at the gym morning, noon, and night. I could not think of anything I'd rather do less, as you can see. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:02:38 (laughs)

Karren Brady 1:02:38 I'm not a gym bunny. I don't go to-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:39 You're great. (laughs)

Karren Brady 1:02:40 ... the gym, I've got no desire to go to the gym. When he says, "I'm going to the gym," I went, "Yeah, bye," and that's it. Uh, when I say I'm going to a board meeting, he's like, "Yeah, bye." Like, he can't think of anything he'd rather do less. But it's ... We respect each other's space and views and ideas, and we don't have to debate every last thing or every last decision. Um, and everything's okay. Like, we, we don't worry about anything. We don't, I'm not gonna say we don't worry about anything, we don't sweat about stuff.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:08 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 1:03:09 Uh, you know, I don't care if he doesn't pick up his socks.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:13 Interesting.

Karren Brady 1:03:14 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:03:15 (laughs)

Karren Brady 1:03:15 The whole world is not gonna stop because he hasn't picked up his socks. But the, I'll tell you what really is important in a relationship, is understanding when other people are under pressure and being there for them, and I don't mean being in there with them, but I mean just being there for them, and doing the things that really matter to them as opposed to big romantic gestures. I can't, I mean, I'm not a flower person. I don't particularly like flowers. If someone bought me flowers, it's okay, but I'm not a big, like, I don't need flowers. But my husband used to fill my car up with petrol, so it was one less thing I had to worry about.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:55 Hmm.

Karren Brady 1:03:55 And it's small things like that that build a foundation because you know that person's there for you even though it's not a big romantic gesture that the whole world can see, 'cause that's really not very important to me.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:07 Have you ever done the love languages test thing?

Karren Brady 1:04:09 No. I don't-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:10 Okay.

Karren Brady 1:04:10 ... even know what it is.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:11 So I'm not into this kind of woo-wow-thick thing, but this is actually quite logical.

Karren Brady 1:04:14 Is it from Just Seventeen magazine or something? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:04:16 I don't, I don't even know what it is, but it's probably ...

Karren Brady 1:04:18 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:04:19 It, it's a series of questions which try to understand h- the, the type of love indicator that you most appreciate, and it tends to be the case that busy entrepreneurial people, their, their love language is, and a- as is mine, is acts of service. And it's exactly what you've described, the tiny little thing to help in a moment, so like p- helping you pack your luggage when they know you're traveling.

Karren Brady 1:04:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:40 Or just doing that tiny ... And for me, when I did, I did the survey with my girlfriend, I'll send it to you, mine was acts of service. For me, the most meaningful thing someone can do for me in a relationship is exactly what you said, is like-

Karren Brady 1:04:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:49 ... help me with-

Karren Brady 1:04:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:50 ... a tiny thing that you know-

Karren Brady 1:04:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:52 But is his sort of love language per se the same? Some people's is like touch, words of affirmation, acts of service. Oh, gifts is one of them.

Karren Brady 1:04:59 I think he'd hit any of the above. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:05:01 Oh, really? (laughs) Does he get it? (laughs)

Karren Brady 1:05:05 Yes, he does. No, we, we, uh ... I think for us, the most important thing for us is having a laugh, having lots of family and friends that we enjoy their company with, and you know, I ... It's interesting, lots of couples who've been married a long time, they need lots of people around them to break up, you know.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:24 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 1:05:24 They have lots of friends over, lots of, do lots of things, big parties and stuff like that. And though I'll tell you the one thing he does for me every day without fail is, um, he takes the dog for a walk, which is very important, and he picks up a coffee and he brings it straight to me, and that ... 'Cause he knows I cannot start my day without a, without a coffee. And that's his big love moment every day.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:48 Is there a need to maintain desire when you're sort of two, almost three decades into your relationship? Is there things to do? Is there a strategy to keep it-

Karren Brady 1:05:56 Oh, this is the wrong podcast. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:05:59 (laughs) No, okay, no, no.

Karren Brady 1:06:00 That's a different, uh-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:01 It's like Fifty Shades as the CEO.

Karren Brady 1:06:02 Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:06:03 Okay. Is that the answer?

Karren Brady 1:06:05 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:06:05 Oh, you've folded your arms. (laughs)

Karren Brady 1:06:10 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:06:10 Do you know, do you know what I mean, i- date nights, I don't know, is there something that I should be thinking about when I get fr-

Karren Brady 1:06:15 Well, y- I think from our point of view, our kids are grown up, so every night's a date night for us. But I think doing things that are different and unusual. I mean, we went on this fantastic tour of Thailand, where we went all over, did really crazy wonderful things that were, were really good fun. So we try and do more experience-led things, but equally, we are, you know, we are prepared to go in our track suits and go out f- to the pub. Um, I mean, our, I guess our happy place, if I have to think about happy place, is Soho Farmhouse, that's a-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:49 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 1:06:49 ... a real happy place for us, and we tend to try and go one weekend a month, um, and we spend two nights and really don't do anything. Take the dog on long walks, have loads to drink, watch a film, go out to eat lots of food, just relax.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:07 One thing you've never- I've never seen you talk about from, from all that I read is mental health, your

Steven Bartlett 1:07:12 own mental health. This is kind of a, a fairly new conversation that's happened in the last 10 years, but have you had experiences with things like anxiety or depression within your own sort of mental health?

Karren Brady 1:07:22 No, I haven't.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:24 No?

Karren Brady 1:07:24 Uh, maybe I have, but I just haven't focused on it or haven't really thought about it. I think we all have bad days, don't we? Where-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:31 Yeah.

Karren Brady 1:07:31 ... we're, we're sort of more snappy than, than others and days that we're really good. I started HRT recently and I found myself singing in the kitchen the other day-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:40 (laughs)

Karren Brady 1:07:40 ... which is something I don't think I've ever done. And I was like, "Christ, this stuff's working." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:46 (laughs)

Karren Brady 1:07:46 So, but no, I have this resilience from this, you know, from my very early age to be able to put things to one side and focus on what needs to be done and not really worry too much about it, which is p- probably both a blessing and a curse.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:01 And you d- do you describe yourself... I was reading one of your books, uh, do you describe yourself as a feminist?

Karren Brady 1:08:05 Definitely.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:06 Yeah?

Karren Brady 1:08:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:06 And what does that mean to you?

Karren Brady 1:08:08 To me, it means equality. It doesn't mean wanting more than men. It doesn't mean disliking men. It just means that women's rights should be equal to men's.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:18 Be- it has been stigmatized, hasn't it? The, the word feminism. It's this kind of like... I feel like it's become a little bit of a, a... Well, the stigma is it's kind of this anti-man rhetoric. Whereas really I think men should be- feel like they're feminists too.

Karren Brady 1:08:31 Definitely.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:31 Yeah.

Karren Brady 1:08:31 Every m- every man has a mother, um, has an aunt, has a sister, has a cousin, has a female in his life that should want them to be treated equally. I mean, it's a, it's a truth for, for every pound a man makes, a woman makes 86p and it's gonna take 100 years to close that gap. And if you get into industries like finance, you know, that gap is, is, uh, much bigger than that. So it's just about equality. It's about not being discriminated against because you're a woman. Not being paid less because you're a woman. Not being able to earn your worth because you're a woman. That's what it means to me.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:07 And as we look forward at the future, you've achieved so, so much in your life, in your career. It seems like from what you... 'Cause you said earlier on that you weren't ambitious when you were younger, it seems like you've probably surpassed your childhood, early years ambitions already. Is that an accurate... I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but is that accurate?

Karren Brady 1:09:22 Yeah, I would think so. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:23 So what,

Steven Bartlett 1:09:24 what's, what's driving you now? What's the, the thing flipping the duvet and getting you out of bed if you've surpassed all those ambitions?

Karren Brady 1:09:30 I mean, the toughest thing about being a success is you've got to keep on being a success. There's no point in having a successful year last year to do nothing this year.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:40 (sighs)

Karren Brady 1:09:40 And what drives that is ambition. And I really am disappointed when people are afraid to say they're ambitious because we tend to think ambitious people are ruthless people and that's not the case. Ambition is that spark, it's that fire inside of yourself that won't let you settle for anything other than what you think you deserve and what you want. And, uh, I love what I do. I feel so proud that I run West Ham. I feel so proud that I'm in the House of Lords and the work that's important there that has to be done. Um, I love the businesses that I'm involved in, the charities that I'm involved in. I've picked the things I wanted because I wanted to say yes to them and I don't have any think I secretly wanted to say no, but say yes. So, um, I think a sort of all-rounded life, whether it's doing The Apprentice, something I love, it's such good fun. I mean, we're... there are... I don't know how it is on your show, but on my show, there's a real level of support and we're all good friends. I mean, Alan, Claude and I would go on holiday together, we'd go out for dinner. We're, we're friends, we're firm friends first and, and, and, and foremost. And I love what I do and I just wanna keep doing it.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:57 Is there a goal or an ambition for you or is it more of the same? Is that the... Do you have like a... when you think, "Okay, 10 years from now..."

Karren Brady 1:11:04 I've never had that.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:04 Never?

Karren Brady 1:11:05 I've never set milestones. I mean, I did have... When I was younger I had a flat and I wanted a flat that had heating.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:11 (laughs)

Karren Brady 1:11:12 And then I wanted a flat that had heating and a washing machine. And then I wanted a flat that had heating and a washing machine and a car. So I did have those sort of milestones as opposed to ambitions, but I don't have any of that anymore. There's nothing I want. I don't ever look at people and think, "Oh, I wish I had that." Or, "I really want one of those." I actually don't want anything. I don't have a car. I don't need a car. I like to walk. I don't have a lot of stuff. Um, I'm not... Uh, s- m- some people I know have w- w- w- wardrobes the size of your flat with so many clothes in. I buy a load of clothes for The Apprentice and I give them all away to Dress For Success or to my staff when I'm finished. I don't have a lot of stuff and I've never wanted a lot of things.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:55 Mm-hmm.

Karren Brady 1:11:55 So I don't have this sort of, "Oh, I must get a boat or a yacht." I mean, I'd never want anything like that. I love what I do. I'm very happy in my life. I'm very content. I wake up every morning without anxiety. I never feel I've bitten off more than I can chew. I never think, "How am I gonna see through the day that is ahead of me?" I'm never thinking about how I pay my bills. I'm never thinking about, "How do I keep up with the Joneses?" I'm never worrying about those things that weighs a