Life Changing Lessons From 100 Of The World’s Greatest Minds | E104

Steven Bartlett 0:00 Wow. We've now recorded more than 100 episodes of The Diary of a CEO, and I've had some of the most amazing, inspiring, and life-changing conversations with some of the world's most accomplished experts, business people, psychologists, athletes, you name it. So this week we're gonna do something a little different, something many of you have requested for a long time, and something I've always wanted to do. This week we're gonna look backwards. This week I'm gonna share with you the key moments, the actionable, life-changing, epiphany-inducing moments from the last 100 episodes that had a lasting impact on me, that changed my life. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music)

Steven Bartlett 0:54 We hear this, uh, phrase, um, a lot, which is, "Find your passion."

Jamil Qureshi 0:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00 And I almost feel that it's- it's in many respects quite harmful because it- that question is kind of loaded. It- it- it assumes a singular passion for a start.

Jamil Qureshi 1:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09 It- it assumes that you can discover it like an Easter egg, and then, and also, um, the- the context in which that question usually sits in implies that once you find it, then it's, you know, then it's the- the- the ... it's a kind of unlimited, like, happiness and orientation forever.

Jamil Qureshi 1:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:27 And then that's yours, and it- it ... I just feel like sometimes language can be harmful because it- it simplifies very complex things, and sometimes multifaceted, plural things, you know? So, I wondered if that, you know, that phrase, uh, "Find your p- find your passion," was something you, um, you felt similar about or you ... yeah.

Jamil Qureshi 1:45 (laughs) Yeah, I do. I mean, yeah, uh, uh, it's true that passion can be a significant multiplier of human potential.

Steven Bartlett 1:51 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 1:51 So, you know, if people are passionate and engaged in a business, they can direct their energy in a- in a worthwhile and meaningful manner. So- so- so it's- it's worthwhile, but you're right, uh, that, you know, there's a big difference between passion, a big difference between happiness and joy. Um, some are in the moment. At home I think joy is in the moment, and I think happiness is something, um, that we continually- continually adjust towards. Um, you know, passion can be a significant multiplier of human potential, particularly in the workplace, so it does have a place. It is something which is useful to understand. And then ultimately, it always comes down to personal introspection and self-awareness for me, and I think that, um, we need to work harder at understanding ourselves, and when we are constructing a mindset which is conducive to performance. So we optimize our potential when we're in a particular state of mind, and that state of mind might be passion, it might be relaxation, it might be enthusiasm, might be enjoyment. But we need to almost get to know ourselves and know that, um, there are certain things which enable us to do others. At home, I want people to work backwards and understand what that looks like. Maybe we can gain some more consistency. I say to a lot of sports people and to a lot of business people that consistency of mind gives you consistency of play, and I'm convinced of it. You know, the more consistent we can be in our thinking, we understand, um, the building blocks, the component parts to success, you know, t- the more success we can have.

Steven Bartlett 3:20 And how does one establish consistency of thought? Um, 'cause I completely agree with that. I completely agree. I've seen that in my own life when I've been consistent with my thinking, I've managed to, you know, um, perform the same habits every day.

Jamil Qureshi 3:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:32 Um, but then sometimes I'll lose consistency in my thoughts because I lose, um ... I lose ... I guess I l- lose attachment or sort of my anchor with my- my why.

Jamil Qureshi 3:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:43 And I- I talk a lot, I've talked a lot on this podcast over the last couple of weeks about this realization I've had this year with the gym, which was every year, February, March, I was incredibly motivated to go. I was fired up, trying to look good for summer.

Jamil Qureshi 3:56 Right. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:57 And then o- obviously once you look good and summer has ended, it's almost like you've lost your anchor, right?

Jamil Qureshi 4:03 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 4:03 So, like, you get into September and the why which made you go into think consistently every day has been ... is evaporated, and I'm try... I can't get myself to go to the gym in October. (laughs)

Jamil Qureshi 4:14 Right. Do you know, I mean, I always think that consistency of mind comes from understanding the intrinsic quality of our decision-making processes.

Steven Bartlett 4:22 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 4:22 And I say that a lot to people in sport and in business. So, yeah, you can make a good decision and have a really bad outcome, or you can make a bad decision and have a good outcome. And this is why I've worked with leadership teams who have confused luck for genius, made a really bad decision, got a great outcome.

Steven Bartlett 4:37 Yeah. (laughs)

Jamil Qureshi 4:38 You know, markets have changed, competition's done something.

Steven Bartlett 4:40 Oh, yeah.

Jamil Qureshi 4:40 Something's just worked in their favor. Um, so, um, so it's really important for us to not judge our decision-making by our outcomes, and we often do. So we'll say, "This is a good decision because it resulted in this," or, "This was a bad decision, it resulted in that." Um, and we can only understand the outcome retrospectively, so it's wrong to measure our decisions by the outcomes. And then we need to go back to how we made a decision in the first place. Then once we start to understand the intrinsic quality of our decision-making process, we can become more consistent in how we make decisions-

Steven Bartlett 5:13 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 5:13 ... and therefore have more control over those outcomes. So I think that, you know, two things. That, uh, I think that ... and then we'll use you as the example here, Steve.

Steven Bartlett 5:21 Please. (laughs)

Jamil Qureshi 5:21 That, um, that consistency of mind will come from knowing how we make decisions, and to understand that we put, um, our weight into evidence, how much we use prejudice and bias and opinion, whatever it might be. But let's understand how we make decisions, and in that way we can be consistent in, um, how we apply our logic in thinking and feeling to try and determine some best outcomes. And then the other thing that, um, as you've just positioned, is reframing. That, um, let's stand back and create some time and space to understand at home, you know, why we do things and why we don't do things. Now, I always say that, um, the people who are most successful, and I've had the pleasure of working with six sportspeople who got to number one in the world, I can guarantee you the one thing they had in common was that, um-

6:05 Um, they, um, they never made big changes. And, um, it was small changes. So, I'm a big, big believer in the one degree of change. If you take two parallel lines and you move one by one degree, it may not seem much at first, but there's a really big difference between where you start and where you end up.

Steven Bartlett 6:21 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 6:21 So, um, everyone's trying to, you know, make a dramatic change, a sea change. "From tomorrow I'm gonna be different." I think it's about doing something a little bit more than what we've been doing it ... and a bit more consistently. And then the other thing with these people who obtained, you know, what I call, um, super achievements, and so they did really, really well, um, is that they actually worked on their strengths. They started to understand what was good about them and do that some more. So, we think to be better as human beings, I think to be better as a business or a team of people, we need to fix our weaknesses. Um, I'm not sure that's true. I actually think it's more about understanding our strengths and playing to them. So, um, I've actually worked with teams before in business and in sport who have actually weakened a strength by trying to strengthen a weakness.

Steven Bartlett 7:07 Brilliant.

Jamil Qureshi 7:07 If you think about it, it's ridiculous. They've actually weakened a strength by trying to strengthen a weakness. We need to be careful. So, I think understanding what's good about us, understanding, you know, where our behaviors come from in regard to the thinking before it, and then reframing some of those words and pictures. And I guess that's what you've done with your gym example is that-

Steven Bartlett 7:24 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 7:24 ... I guess, changed some of the words and pictures in your head-

Steven Bartlett 7:27 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 7:27 ... to therefore feel differently, which has resulted you in acting differently.

Steven Bartlett 7:31 Yeah. And I really, you know, I was, I was valuing intensity over consistency.

Jamil Qureshi 7:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:35 And intensity wasn't sustainable, right? So, I was going through the summer, like, t- to the gym two times a day. I was starving myself, like eating things that I, I, I didn't want to necessarily eat.

Jamil Qureshi 7:44 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 7:45 And, and the, the consistency came from being a bit more, um, realistic with myself.

Jamil Qureshi 7:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:49 Being like, you know, "If you miss the day of a gym, it doesn't matter. You don't have to-"

Jamil Qureshi 7:52 Perspective.

Steven Bartlett 7:53 Yeah.

Jamil Qureshi 7:53 It's perspective, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 7:54 Yeah.

Jamil Qureshi 7:55 And I think, do you know, it's funny because again, so, so many sports people I work with, um, business people who will lose perspective. They'll lose the tournament and it's dreadful. They'll win a tournament, "I've, I've made it." You know, "This is it."

Steven Bartlett 8:06 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 8:06 "This is the turning point for me." You know, they win a big contract, you know, in business and, you know, "This is us now, we're set up." You know, or they, or they lose a contract and, um, life has never been so dreadful.

Steven Bartlett 8:16 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 8:16 Uh, um, but I think that we need a better perspective on things. So, our ability to think more long term-

Steven Bartlett 8:22 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 8:22 ... to be more forgiving, you know, to understand with more, um, reality at, uh, what's good and what's not so good, um, is probably

Jamil Qureshi 8:30 the way forwards.

Steven Bartlett 8:31 I wanna talk about failure-

Jamil Qureshi 8:33 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 8:33 ... now. (laughs) Which seems like a good thing to talk about. And in your book Philosophy, you, you list seven failure principles.

Jamil Qureshi 8:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 8:41 Number one, failure just is.

Jamil Qureshi 8:44 Failure is a fact. It's inevitable. It's gonna happen to all of us. No matter how much we try to avoid it, I guarantee that it will happen. And that can feel scary, but it can also feel liberating. 'Cause once you've accepted it as a fact, there's no point in trying to avoid it, so you might as well take the risk. So, acceptance of failure starts with the observation of it. Failure is a fact, but how you respond to it is within your control. Whether you decide to feel like a failure for many years after the thing that's happened, or whether you think to yourself, "Okay, well, that's taught me something and I'll do it differently next time."

Steven Bartlett 9:19 I guess the risk there is one bad failure and people stop trying.

Jamil Qureshi 9:23 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 9:24 And then I, I, I was thinking, this is very similar to confidence in the way that, like, if you have one bad failure, your performance next time you get an opportunity, if you actually don't manage to just avoid it completely, will probably be worse because of nerves and that, you know, the memory of "I'm terrible" and-

Jamil Qureshi 9:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:38 And then that's gonna increase your chances of failing again. And then the kind of, like, self-negative reinforcing cycle kind of continues and your, your confidence and your sort of, yeah, your guts kind of cascade downwards. And can, for some people, work in the other direction where you have a success, your confidence builds-

Jamil Qureshi 9:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 9:55 ... you walk on stage to do that, you know, public speech next time around with a bit more confidence. You do a better job, which increases-

Jamil Qureshi 10:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:00 ... your chance of success and it cascades upwards. That how failure works from your experience or?

Jamil Qureshi 10:05 It, it can work like that. I mean, to take the example you've just given, one of the ways of looking at that, if you're then stuck in a downward cycle and you're failing and you're trying at the thing, is that you're therefore in the wrong situation. So, you're in the wrong workplace, for instance, that, that isn't generous enough to, like, make you feel okay after your failures or doesn't make you feel like you can be your true self. In which case I would argue you need to remove yourself from that situation and find the place that does suit you.

Steven Bartlett 10:30 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 10:31 Or it can be a question of mindset and a question of applying that mindset that we've just talked about, which is, "Okay, I failed. I'm feeling in a downward spiral." How much of that is fact? That's a very difficult thing to do on your own when you're at a very low ebb, and that's why I'm a huge advocate of therapy. And again, I know that I come from a priv- privileged place where I can afford therapy. But even if it starts with reaching out to your friend and talking about it, or reaching out to your work helpline and talking about it, or texting Shout, the mental health charity, or calling The Samaritans, that's a really valuable step. And the other thing that I would say there is that I'm very aware that my definition of failure, which is what happens when life doesn't go according to plan, has a fatal flaw (laughs) , which is that sometimes there are failures that are totally cataclysmic that we couldn't possibly have predicted that go against any plan whatsoever, like a global pandemic, like a terrible illness that you contract, like the death of a loved one. It would be monstrous for me to sit here and say those failures are as easily assimilated or learnt from or dealt with as failing your driving test. And so I, I'm not saying that at all. Those kind of failures will require a process of mourning and coming to terms with the thing that you've lost. And that's absolutely right and as it should be. My only thing is, the way that I choose to live my life is-... I mourn, but I don't have to constantly relive the pain. I can still feel sadness about something, but I don't need to live in that place of reliving it constantly.

Steven Bartlett 12:18 Becoming a victim?

Jamil Qureshi 12:19 Yeah. And becoming defined by that. I can choose to be defined by something else. I can choose to be defined by my response to it. I can choose to find some kind of meaning in something that was meaningless at the time. And that's how I choose to live my life because that makes it less sad, and I, and I think that that choice is available f- for most of us.

Steven Bartlett 12:44 So point number two in your book is you are not your anxious brain. I think you've talked about that.

Jamil Qureshi 12:48 Yes. I met this man called Mo Gawdat, who used to be the chief business officer of Google X, but he wasn't happy, and he has a lot to say about expectation versus reality. So if we can manage our expectations of life, so if they're equal to or less than our perception of events and how they turn out, then we can be happy or contented. And he was the one who really brought it home to me that we are not our worst thoughts, that our thoughts are produced by our brain as organic matter-

Steven Bartlett 13:15 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 13:15 ... in the same way that blood is pumped around our body by our heart. Like, we wouldn't think we were defined by our blood, so why would we think that we are our thoughts?

Steven Bartlett 13:24 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 13:24 But actually, as you know, the premise of all meditation is that you can observe your thoughts. Who's doing the observing? That's you. That's you. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 13:33 Yeah.

Jamil Qureshi 13:33 Why would you need thoughts... y- y- like, you don't need to communicate to yourself, so your thoughts are just being produced by your brain constantly.

Steven Bartlett 13:40 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 13:40 And I found that really helpful, the idea that once you realize that, you can train your brain to think differently and to replace negative thoughts with positive ones-

Steven Bartlett 13:53 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 13:53 ... as much as you're able. So he gave this incredibly moving example. His son, Ali, died at the age of 21 during a routine operation, and in the aftermath of Ali's death, Mo would wake up every morning with tears streaming down his cheeks, and his first thought would be, "Ali died." And it was an unbelievably oppressive, grief-stricken thought, and after a few more weeks of it, he was like, "I just can't live like this. I can't live like this." And so he challenged his brain to come up with a different thought, and each morning, he would wake up, and he would still think, "Ali died. Ali died," and he'd still be crying, but he added something to that sentence, and he added, "Yes, but he also lived." And in that differently expressed sentiment was 21 years of memories of a father and son who were best friends, and that was what enabled him to carry on living, and if he can do that in that situation, I sure as hell can do it when someone criticizes me on Instagram.

Steven Bartlett 14:50 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 14:50 It was a really helpful lesson.

Steven Bartlett 14:53 Almost everyone feels they have failed in their 20s.

Jamil Qureshi 14:56 So I think that a lot of people struggle in their 20s, particularly in this day and age because of the curse of comparison and because we live in a culture of curated perfection where you're constantly comparing yourself to your peers' filtered appearance on Instagram- (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:09 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 15:09 ... and the life that they seem to be living. So we're comparing our insides with everyone else's projection of their outsides.

Steven Bartlett 15:15 Exactly, yeah.

Jamil Qureshi 15:16 And for many people, although I know, n- not you, but for many people, it's the first time that they've come out of full-time education and come out of a system of exam and reward, exam and reward.

Steven Bartlett 15:28 Yeah.

Jamil Qureshi 15:28 And there is no exam that you can sit to show that you're being a good grownup, so you feel quite lost. Plus, piling on top of that, the pressure to find your passion, to, like, make a career for yourself but also to earn enough to pay your rent, living in house shares, like, just trying to make your way and trying to forge your identity in this day and age, it's just so hard to do all that at once. And then you're like, "Oh, and I should be having, like, a thriving personal life, and I should either be in a long-term-"

Steven Bartlett 15:59 Yeah. (laughs)

Jamil Qureshi 16:00 "... relationship or having wine night stands and being footloose and fancy-free and drinking loads and then, at the weekend, making vegan brownies 'cause I've got to watch what I eat and all of that sort of stuff." And it's exhausting. And so really what I wanted to say in that failure principle was that so many people come on my podcast and say that they feel they failed at their 20s, and I think a lot of us fall into the trap, and I did too, of believing that we had to have our life sorted out by then. And actually your 20s are a decade of transition, of discovering who you are, of grinding up the spices of life-

Steven Bartlett 16:31 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 16:31 ... in your pestle and mortar. And the older you get, my experience has been the more you know yourself and the more you know what you want to do, and that's where success lies. I've had so many more opportunities after leaving my 20s behind in the rearview mirror.

Steven Bartlett 16:47 Wow. When we choose to share our vulnerabilities is when we feel most satisfaction.

Jamil Qureshi 16:53 Most e- connection, I think, is what I said.

Steven Bartlett 16:56 Oh.

Jamil Qureshi 16:56 Well, I don't-

Steven Bartlett 16:56 Why does it say satisfaction on my list then? I'm not sure.

Jamil Qureshi 16:58 I don't know. I like that too because you probably do feel personal satisfaction. (laughs) It's like-

Steven Bartlett 17:02 Yeah, maybe.

Jamil Qureshi 17:02 But when we choose to be open about our vulnerabilities, that's paradoxically when we find the most strength and the source of the most real connections with other people.

Steven Bartlett 17:12 Amen.

Jamil Qureshi 17:12 Yeah. And that's something that I have genuinely learned through the podcast. The first season of the podcast I did, I was very much, I came from a very traditional newspaper journalist background, so for me it was like, "I'm interviewing my guest."

Steven Bartlett 17:26 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 17:26 "I will ask the questions, and I will listen, and then I will ask another question." And it was only as time went on that I felt more comfortable sharing my own experiences, and whenever I did that, I had such an incredible, like, feedback loop of, like, just amazing people sharing their stories and their vulnerabilities and also saying that they felt less alone because I shared mine.

Steven Bartlett 17:51 Mm-hmm.

Jamil Qureshi 17:51 And really, that's what my entire life (laughs) is about, ultimately, is connection, and so I really want to encourage people not to be scared of opening up about the things that they perceive as their weaknesses because so often what you think of as your most personal shame turns out to have most universal resonance, and that was certainly my experience talking about...... fertility and miscarriage and divorce. Like actually, that's where I've had the greatest impact, I think, and I'm so grateful for that.

Steven Bartlett 18:25 Why do you think that is? Why do you think vulnerab- in terms of like why it has such wide resonance, why do you think that is?

Jamil Qureshi 18:32 Because I think that when we're vulnerable, we're being real and we're letting our masks slip and you're seeing a glimpse of who the authentic person is. And there's something just absolutely quintessentially human about that. So it's a human recognizing another human. It's a human recognizing another human beneath the pretense. And I think it also reassures people because as we've been talking about, in this culture that we live in which is so defined by social media and how you appear and the currency of perfection, again, it's such a relief. It makes you feel like you can breathe if someone's like, "Oh, God."

Steven Bartlett 19:15 (laughs)

Jamil Qureshi 19:15 I was telling you about today, I sat in bed in my pajamas eating hummus direct from the tub because I felt really down. That's an act of singular generosity to someone else who can then have the space to talk about how

Jamil Qureshi 19:27 they're feeling.

Steven Bartlett 19:28 And that brings us to the topic of mindset-

Matthew Syed 19:30 Right.

Steven Bartlett 19:30 ... really nicely. You know, I've, I've heard you talk about having a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. What is the difference between the two?

Matthew Syed 19:36 So I think f- for ... Thank you. I th- For what it's worth, I think this contrast is, is so important. I mean, I can talk about it through my own life, but, you know, in a fixed mindset people think that success, however defined, is all about talent, having the gift, uh, having the genetic inheritance in or- you know, having the personality trait in order to excel. A growth mindset is saying, "Okay, talent obviously matters, it's a factor, but it's not enough, it's what we do with our talents." So people in a fixed mindset have two massive risks. One, they think they're so talented they don't even need to try.

Steven Bartlett 20:13 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Syed 20:14 So think of a young person who's just been, um, invited to join the Manchester United Academy and they're suddenly getting money into their bank account, they're able to buy the fast car and they think, "I'm God's gift." And they ... And the amount of academy coaches who have come to me and said, "We don't understand it. We had this hardworking youngster, we invited them into the academy and then they just went off the rails," it's a fixed mindset. They think their success is assured so they stop putting in the hard yards and don't transition into the first team. So that's one danger. The other danger is people who don't think they're God's gift, but w- like me at Goldman Sachs, you make one failure and you interpret that as meaning, "I obviously don't have talent, therefore I'm just gonna give up."

Steven Bartlett 20:56 Ah.

Matthew Syed 20:56 Do you see what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 20:57 Yeah, so that's the negative version of it.

Matthew Syed 20:59 S- Yeah. So you've got the, "I'm super ... Talent is everything and I've got it, so therefore I don't need to try." "Talent is everything, I don't have it, therefore I should give up." They're both terribly, uh, damaging-

Steven Bartlett 21:09 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Syed 21:09 ... I think. A growth mindset, it doesn't mean that we think we're all gonna be the best speaker in the world. I wasn't the best table tennis player in the world, I never got into the top 20 of the world rankings, but with that attitude I maximized my own potential.

Steven Bartlett 21:22 Uh, I'm very intrigued as to, um, you know, c- certain people in our society, um, more self-believing than others, um, you see differences in, um, genders and races and, and b- backgrounds and I think a lot of people in my DMs, um, I, I'm ... And this is where the question comes from, I have so many young kids in my, my DMs that are struggling with, um, confidence or s- lacking self-belief, and I wondered if you had any words of wisdom for those in my DMs that can't find confidence and self-belief.

Matthew Syed 21:55 I, uh, think, for what it's worth, um, that self-belief, self-esteem, other things of that kind are overrated. Um, and the reason goes back to something we said earlier. I mean, there was a movement in the '70s and '80s in Western education to build self-esteem in young people and the way to do it was to let them succeed all the time, right? So, so you might remember this, but it would ... You'd give them easy tests, get them to pass, and give them lots of t- and then praise them for how super talented they were. They get all this self-esteem and they can change the world. People were so worried about undermining self-esteem that there were no losers in sports days at some schools. I don't know if d- y- have you heard of this? That everyone's a winner?

Steven Bartlett 22:41 Um, I've, I've ... Yeah, everyone gets a sticker and

Elizabeth Day 22:42 Yeah.

Matthew Syed 22:42 You know, and that was all about building ... It was called the Self-Esteem Movement.

Steven Bartlett 22:46 Right, okay.

Matthew Syed 22:46 But it failed.

Steven Bartlett 22:47 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Syed 22:47 And the reason it failed is because people would keep succeeding and, you know, they'd get all this self-esteem and then (laughs) , and then they'd be given a difficult test, right?

Steven Bartlett 22:58 (laughs)

Matthew Syed 22:58 Or they would leave school and they would actually hit the real world where they would fail. And what happened? All the walls of their world would come crumbling down, "Oh my goodness."

Steven Bartlett 23:07 They never failed before.

Matthew Syed 23:08 Right, self-esteem that is fra- ... And people would protect their self-esteem by not trying new things, right? And, and that's a disaster. Self-esteem can be very fragile. I, I like to talk much more about resilience. We want p- ... We w- I want, I want my children to be resilient, to try new things, to mess up, but not to be devastated by it. And that, I think, is a much better

Elizabeth Day 23:31 Yeah.

Matthew Syed 23:31 ... quality. Now, it may be that when people are talking about confidence what they really mean is resilience. I wanna be able to walk into a, to, to a room, give it my best shot, things don't g- go slightly wrong, I'm gonna carry on regardless. Every person who's a success has had some really tough, difficult moments, um, and I just think that's an inevitable part of life.

Steven Bartlett 23:51 How do we build resilience in ourselves?

Matthew Syed 23:53 Growth mindset's very strongly related to it. So instead of, um, you know, for parents out there, I don't ... You, you probably have a very young audience, I'm, I'm sure amazing, but, but, uh, the parents out there, it's very easy to praise young people for their talent, "You're super ta-" You know, they've just drawn a picture, "You're super talented. You're the next Picasso." You think they're gonna develop all this self-esteem. The problem, as I've said, is that, you know, the moment they draw something that isn't Picasso, as soon as they get negative criticism, "Oh my goodness, I'm no Picasso after all."... um, much better thing to do is to praise them for the effort or the process, "Well, I love the way that picture... the, the colus fit together." They think, "Oh, right, if I want to develop as a painter, I have to make the colors fit together in a more sophisticated way." You're aligning their mind and motivation with the journey they need to take to fulfill their potential. So, it's good experiments, praising for effort, praising for process is a much more, um, positive thing than praising for talent and fixed attributes.

Steven Bartlett 24:55 It's interesting 'cause I- I... In my company, I, I came to learn that, um, the most effective way to get my teams to innovate was to praise them for the effort and the process as opposed to the outcome. Because if it be- became about the outcome, the success or failure of the experiment, then, um... Which is largely actually outside of their control, right? When you're doing... So, if I say to my team, "Right, we're gonna build this website, and we think it's gonna do this," whether it does that or not, whether there's product market fit, whether it's a success or a failure, isn't actually in their control. The bit they can control is starting doing it and the process of getting to the point where we press go live. And so, we... What, what I learned in the last year of my business was we would celebrate the, um, conducting the experiment, not the outcome of the experiment.

Matthew Syed 25:37 Exactly, right.

Steven Bartlett 25:38 Okay.

Matthew Syed 25:39 That's it. That, that is exactly the same thing. And it's interesting, but if you look at R&D... You know, um, have you heard of Six Sigma?

Steven Bartlett 25:45 Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Syed 25:46 So, so one of the things... I mean, one of the big mis-... I mean, Six Sigma is a great process, you know, like lean manufacturing or, um, uh, uh, Toyota pro-... Things of that kind. It's basically squeezing out variation.

Steven Bartlett 25:57 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Syed 25:57 Isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 25:58 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Syed 25:59 So, if you imagine making a car or, you know, manufacturing a car, all it takes is one component in the engine to be of the wrong size or specification and the whole thing won't work. So, Six Sigma is about delivering and executing with no variation. But when you're innovating, you need variation, you need to try new things. You know, if you're trying to create a new computer program, a new website, or, you know, a new drug, and you don't know which combination of ingredients you're gonna create it, you need to try lots of combinations. If you penalize people for failure-

Steven Bartlett 26:29 Oh, my God.

Matthew Syed 26:30 ... and you're only get-... judging them on the outcome-

Steven Bartlett 26:32 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Syed 26:33 ... and it fails, and then they're, like, stigmatized, they will never try. You need... You know, that's where fail fast

Anna Hemmings 26:38 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Syed 26:38 ... comes. Yeah, you, you've nailed it. That's exactly the insight that I think is, is, is important.

Steven Bartlett 26:44 For some people, that's terrifying (laughs) .

Anna Hemmings 26:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:45 The thought of, like, throwing themselves

Steven Bartlett 26:48 into that place of uncertainty that they have to travel through before they get to their new self. How do you get someone to come willingly into uncertainty, to leave that job or to, you know, take on that promotion or to pivot in their career when they're scared of the unknown? Or, you know, it's like...

Anna Hemmings 27:07 Well, then I would think about what... I would think about... Rather than what I'm afraid of, I'm thinking about what I'm excited about.

Steven Bartlett 27:12 Mm-hmm.

Anna Hemmings 27:12 And so rather than I'm afraid of what I'm gonna leave behind or I'm afraid of what might happen, I'm ex-... I'm more about what could happen.

Steven Bartlett 27:19 Mm-hmm.

Anna Hemmings 27:20 And when we focus on what we want and what we could have and... You know, it's, it's optimism, isn't it? It's about what's possible-

Steven Bartlett 27:26 Mm-hmm.

Anna Hemmings 27:26 ... and what could I achieve? You know, and you asked me earlier about, you know, what... some of the things about sports psychology, and visualization was one of... was a massive technique-

Steven Bartlett 27:35 Really?

Anna Hemmings 27:35 ... that I learned from my sports psychologist and employed and still use all the time. And I think when you can start to visualize what that new role, person, identity could be, and when you bring it to life with all of your senses and see it really vividly, then that's exciting.

Steven Bartlett 27:56 Mm-hmm.

Anna Hemmings 27:56 And what, what, what could I achieve? And what could this look like? And, and the power of visualization is that your mind does... When it's... When you see it really vividly, your mind doesn't know the difference between a vividly imagined experience and a real-life experience.

Steven Bartlett 28:12 What's your process for visualization? And now, is it something that you do actively, you set time aside and do it, or is it just something that you naturally now do when you're pursuing a goal?

Anna Hemmings 28:23 So, a little bit of both. As an athlete, it was definitely something that I would sit down, usually I'd be lying on my bed, I would have done some relaxation because the more we clear our mind and relax, the easier it is to visualize and to see really clearly. And so I would... it would be a conscious, "Right, I'm gonna spend the next 15 minutes or even two minutes or five minutes," or whatever time I had, "visualizing my next race and seeing myself execute that race plan as perfectly as I can and in exactly the right way." And I would visualize everything from, um... if it was this, this... the Olympic discipline, and, um, we've got nine boats on a start line, I'm seeing my s-... I don't know which lane I'm gonna be in when it comes to race day, so I'm seeing myself race in every lane. I'm seeing myself with, with a headwind, with a tailwind, with it raining. I'm seeing myself cock up the start because that might happen, but then I'm just gonna recover from it, and I'm gonna see myself recover, and I'm gonna see myself win from behind. I'm gonna see myself win from the front. I'm gonna see... Imagine, you know, the start being delayed or it's a false start, you know, all these eventualities so that when it comes to the event, I'm prepared and it can just all un- unfold and I'm not fazed by anything that happens. But, but most importantly, I've seen it happen the way I want it to happen and then I believe that it can happen. And what visualization also does is when we, when we're visualizing a goal, for example, it starts to activate the subconscious to generate creative ideas about how we can achieve our goal. It's, it's, it's mind... I don't know how it works and why it works, but it's mind-blowing and it does work, and it, and it starts to, um, uh, get your brain to perceive and recognize the different, um, resources that you need to achieve your goal. It's, it's like the law of attraction, and it starts to activate that in your life and bring in the people, the resources, the environment, the circumstances that you need to achieve your goal. And so now...... what do I do? I probably, I do spend some time consciously going, "Right, I'm just gonna spend two or three minutes visualizing my goal." I'm seeing it happen. I'm seeing i- it realize. Um, but then other times, I'm probably just, you know, driving in my car and subconsciously... You know, like, daydreaming almost. But I think the- the conscious, "Right, I'm gonna visualize now," is really powerful. Because then you start to really... It starts to ingrain in the subconscious.

Steven Bartlett 30:58 Quick one. I talk to you guys about Huel a lot, so I'm gonna do a quick intermission to tell you about a bit of a change that's happened in the last two months in my life. As you guys know, my favorite Huel product historically has been the ready-to-drink, which is these bottles here. They are nutritionally complete. However, recently, since Huel introduced the Huel protein, this now plays a huge role in my diet. The salted caramel flavor protein from Huel, which is only 105 calories and has 26 vitamins and minerals and 20 grams of protein, um, serves two roles in my life now. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I have a glass. And then at nighttime, after I've been to the gym, straight after the gym, I have a glass. It tastes amazing. If you're gonna try it, follow my instructions here. Get a couple of cubes of ice, put it in a blender, put on the salted caramel protein, and it tastes like a delicious smoothie. I've already gone through one tub of this. I'm actually on my second tub, and I've got two more tubs to go before I'm gonna reorder more. But genuinely, the salted caramel flavor, maybe because I have a liking for salted caramel, for me has been a game-changer.

Steven Bartlett 32:00 Professor Steve Peters. Steve's invented this groundbreaking concept called the chimp model, and it focuses on how there's these kind of three parts to our brain. The first part is called the chimp, which is our sort of desire to be impulsive and irrational and emotional and short-term. The second part, uh, is what he calls the human, and you'll hear him talk about this, which is logical and rational and thinks in terms of facts and thinks things through in the long term. And the third part is what he calls the computer, which is our set of core values and beliefs. I wanted to talk about ex- exactly that topic, which is, like, managing your emotional reactions-

Steve Peters 32:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:35 ... um, across different facets of life. And I think, um... Uh, go, let me just give you an example of a situation that I went through that I wrote about in my book. So, I'm just gonna be completely honest-

Steve Peters 32:45 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 32:45 ... because that's what I tend to do on this podcast. Um, I broke up with a girl. And, um, like two days later, I found out that she had slept with somebody else.

Steve Peters 32:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:53 And when I f- even though I'd broken up with her, e- when I, when I read the message that she'd slept with somebody else, my brain-

Steve Peters 32:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:00 Doo-fff, "Revenge." Message her.

Steve Peters 33:03 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 33:03 Destroy her life. (laughs) That's what my brain said to me. But I, um... And, and I'm at a place in my life where I feel quite secure in my self-image, let's say.

Steve Peters 33:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:14 I don't feel particularly insecure. I'm, I'm, I'm a confident person. But even I couldn't seem to get a grip of my own desire to react emotionally in that situation.

Steve Peters 33:25 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 33:25 Um, and really interestingly as well, it was actually my friend calling me. I went to the gym, I thought, "Maybe I'll go to the gym, and that'll, like, clear my head." I, it was my friend calling me, and, and this, I don't know where this fits in psychiatry, but my friend said to me, "Steve, just remember, you broke up with her. She's probably doing this to, um, make herself feel better and to, you know, rebound or whatever." But, um, that was one of those key moments where I was like, "Oh, God, like, ugh, the damage you can do if you don't know how to control that, like, primitive-"

Steve Peters 33:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:53 "... urge to just, 'Ugh!'"

Steve Peters 33:55 Okay. You've covered a lot of ground there.

Steven Bartlett 33:57 Yeah. (laughs)

Steve Peters 33:57 That could be an hour's work here.

Steven Bartlett 33:59 (laughs)

Steve Peters 33:59 So I'm gonna take it back, and I'll try and go very steadily to try and drive home... There's a lot of areas.

Steven Bartlett 34:04 Yeah.

Steve Peters 34:04 One is, first of all, what would you expect somebody's mind to do, confronted with the same situation? What would you expect them to do?

Steven Bartlett 34:13 Probably the same thing.

Steve Peters 34:14 Exactly. So nothing abnormal happened. There wasn't a problem.

Steven Bartlett 34:17 Yeah.

Steve Peters 34:18 You're saying this is absolutely healthy and normal but maybe not helpful.

Steven Bartlett 34:22 Yeah.

Steve Peters 34:23 And what you really said, because you've told me this, if it wasn't a problem to you, you wouldn't have mentioned it.

Steven Bartlett 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 34:28 So clearly, your human brain is saying, "I don't want to get revenge. That's not what I want. What I want is to just be calm and collected, accept the reality of it, and move on." Unfortunately, that's... We have to learn now how the mind works. So it's like saying you went to the gym, so therefore you're a fitness man. If I said to you, "Right, I've never been to a gym for 30 years. I'm gonna go tonight, and at the end of the day, I'm gonna be super fit."

Steven Bartlett 34:52 (laughs)

Steve Peters 34:53 And you laugh because, you know, that's ridiculous. It's not the way the body works. So we have to now look at another aspect. So now we know it's normal, how does the mind work when we get a really nasty shock and something which is devastating? So the be- the reason the chimp is there and the reason we're here is for us to be safe and present the next generation to the world. That's what the chimp's agenda is.

Steven Bartlett 35:15 (laughs)

Steve Peters 35:15 So what happened there is the generation that you thought you were gonna get was taken away from you. So this is devastating, so we expect you to be devastated. We also expect you to accept the mind is gonna now grieve, and it'll take approximately three months, give or take.

Steven Bartlett 35:31 Are you talking about heartbreak here? Yeah, yeah.

Steve Peters 35:33 Yeah, you've gotta grieve.

Steven Bartlett 35:34 Yeah.

Steve Peters 35:34 So the, the mind has a rule on the way it deals and processes grief. I can't speed that up. So if some, like, if I meet you that night and I say, "Right, I'm gonna get you out of it," I'm going to fail. Because you have to go through these ripples and, and work it through. So your, your human brain can do it in seconds 'cause that's logic. "She's gone. She was dishonest. It's a good thing she's gone now. No more wasted time." Yep, that's easy, but our, the emotional chimp brain has got to process it. I- it cannot do it overnight. So you've got to now allow around a 12-week process, and you're gonna go through various stages of grief in the loss of what is a very significant relationship. And on top of that, there was another insult. It wasn't just she said, "It's not for me." She slept with someone else. So that-

Steven Bartlett 36:19 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 36:20 ... is really gonna get your chimp, you know?

Steven Bartlett 36:22 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 36:22 We expect it now to be devastated, and then your chimp's reaction, some people wouldn't, uh, but it's common that it wants revenge. It wants to say, "Right, if you did this to me, you're gonna suffer now." Um-In reality, what you've just said by your nodding is, "That's not what I want. (laughs) I just wanna move on and accept it wasn't for me. She did what she did. That's her problem, not yours." And what your friend did is start to try and turn it round with some facts to calm your chimp down and say... 'Cause it always looks to the computer. Let's look at reality. And the reality is, if I said to you, uh, "This girl is gonna come back into your life, and they'll bring all that pleasure you used to have, but she's gonna have affairs every few weeks." Is that what you want?

Steven Bartlett 37:02 No.

Steve Peters 37:02 Oh, so you did break it up.

Steven Bartlett 37:04 (laughs) Yeah.

Steve Peters 37:05 You, you know, so you, you try and look at it in a different way and say, "Let's look at the reality and the facts of the situation," but you cannot stop the grieving. You can't stop the yearning or the bargaining 'cause guys in your position often go back and plead, and then she'll say, "Oh, I made a mistake." And, and then you have to make a decision.

Steven Bartlett 37:22 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 37:22 You know? And then they'll bargain again, and then if you go through that, you go into disorganized stage. But this can all be circumvented. If you suddenly met somebody new, your chimp might recover very quickly.

Steven Bartlett 37:33 Is that what tends to happen?

Steve Peters 37:34 Well, less... We know this is the rebound.

Steven Bartlett 37:36 Right.

Steve Peters 37:36 So this is never a good thing.

Steven Bartlett 37:37 Okay.

Steve Peters 37:38 I'm, I'm sure some of you listeners are going, "I, uh, married the person I met on a rebound." So, of course, it's all probabilities, but generally speaking, you need time to get over this. Gather yourself so you're in a good place when you do meet somebody else to have, have a good relationship.

Steven Bartlett 37:51 That's interesting.

Steve Peters 37:52 So it's quite complex, the whole thing. So yes, rationally, we can pull you along, but we gotta give you a lot of TLC, and that should go through grieving. Don't be harsh on yourself and what your experiences are, uh, totally natural. Unhelpful, but natural.

Steven Bartlett 38:06 So many people are going through a grieving process-

Steve Peters 38:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:08 ... and s- it could be a significant life event. It could be the loss-

Steve Peters 38:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:11 ... of a partner, or the death, or whatever. Is there anything in psychiatry, from your experience, that can... Okay, that process is unavoidable.

Steve Peters 38:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:18 But is there anything that I can do to help that process be easier?

Steve Peters 38:22 Yes, there is. I mean, one is understanding it. As you say, if you start to go through this and say to people, like, "This is how your mind has to do this." And like you tell me in t- the gym, you laugh, "I can't do it in the night." "Well, how long?" And you say, "Well, uh, it's a bit of a piece of string, but roughly speaking, if you keep going regularly, two, three times a week, maybe three months, six months, you're gonna see a difference for sure."

Steven Bartlett 38:42 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 38:42 And it's the same with me explaining the mind. I would explain to people that, "We go through a grieving process. You are likely to experience the following emotions or stages in the grief process, but you are unique, and everybody grieves individually."

Steven Bartlett 38:56 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 38:56 So it's very important. As I said earlier, I don't have a process, uh, you know, like a recipe, and say, "This is what we're gonna do." I work with you as you grieve.

Steven Bartlett 39:04 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 39:04 But I want you to get insights. That's the key. So the work I do is giving understanding and insight and then applying this so you learn the skill of managing your emotions and the skill of understanding, the skill of mind management.

Steven Bartlett 39:17 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 39:17 That's what I'm about, teaching a skill base, so you can be independent of me, but use me as a fallback.

Steven Bartlett 39:23 On that, on the point of re- rejection, which we talked about a second ago-

Steve Peters 39:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:26 ... is it the stories that I then tell myself about myself, which impact my self-image, that really hold... that hurt me the most? Because it feels like when you go through emotional... uh, sorry, romantic rejection or heartbreak, it feels like, um, even if you... it, it's not at the fl- sort of, like, front of your mind, the fact that someone didn't want you, or they were... they wanted someone else, makes yourself tell yourself that you are not good enough, not pretty enough, not smart enough. You, you weren't enough. And it feels like so much of the hurt and the pain lives inside that story you're telling yourself about yourself.

Steve Peters 40:02 And again, if, if you stop and we look at what you've said there, are these factual statements, or are they impressions and feelings?

Steven Bartlett 40:10 Impressions and feelings.

Steve Peters 40:11 So, we know that the chimp brain is in full flow now.

Steven Bartlett 40:13 Yeah.

Steve Peters 40:14 So, what we're saying is don't quench that. It's not wrong. It's expressing, and it's like, as I said earlier, you've got this best friend.

Steven Bartlett 40:21 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 40:21 So, "If this happens to me, I now say to you, what is it you're telling me?" And he'll go through all this, you know, "It's the end of the world," and-

Steven Bartlett 40:27 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 40:27 ... you know, uh, clearly no one's ever gonna love you, and, and then we sort of counter it by saying, "Well, let's look at that," so we start to rationalize, and that can help the grieving process-

Steven Bartlett 40:36 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 40:36 ... 'cause we start saying, "Well, let's not just sit there with these falsehoods. Let's challenge them, and let's replace 'em with truths." Not brainwash. It's no good saying, for example, say, "I'm your best mate," and you've just fallen apart, and, and you say, "It's 'cause I'm ugly." It's no good for me to say, "No, you're really handsome." That's not...

Steven Bartlett 40:53 (laughs)

Steve Peters 40:53 That's an impression, again, from me. What, what I'd be saying is, "Let's look to facts." If we look at people in relationships, do people find a partner eventually? And the answer is-

Steven Bartlett 41:03 Yeah.

Steve Peters 41:03 ... most people, yes.

Steven Bartlett 41:04 Yeah.

Steve Peters 41:04 So, the chances are very high, and if you can get through this, will you then eventually get back on your feet? Is there a future?

Steven Bartlett 41:12 Yeah.

Steve Peters 41:12 Yeah, there always is a future. There always is a future. Even for people in a much more serious situation where they become, uh, suicidal, um, and obviously it's part of my work, y- you can tell 'em, with honesty, there is always a future and things do change and feelings do move. So, when you start giving these facts and rationalizing the facts of this situation, that is gonna be powerful for starting to settle your emotions.

Steven Bartlett 41:36 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 41:37 But giving falsehoods-

Steven Bartlett 41:39 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 41:39 ... you know, "I know you can do it," or, "You're..." Uh, the... that's not gonna settle your chimp. They're streetwise.

Steven Bartlett 41:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve Peters 41:45 So, he'll just keep agitating. Whereas if we talk facts, then it'll settle, but again, there's a key point here. We have to find the facts that resonate with you as facts because if I said, like I just did, "Will you find another partner?" What's, what's the general rule? If you said to me, "Yeah, but I don't believe that everybody does," there's no point in me forcing this truth-

Steven Bartlett 42:05 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 42:05 ... onto you. I'd have to look for others that might resonate with you.

Steven Bartlett 42:08 Yeah.

Steve Peters 42:09 Such as, "If I go out and I actually start socializing when I'm ready, then the chances are I'll increase my probability, so that gives me a bit of hope." You might work with that.

Steven Bartlett 42:19 Yeah.

Steve Peters 42:20 So, you've got to find what resonates with the person.

Steven Bartlett 42:23 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 42:24 And again, uh, that's why I don't have this recipe. I'm saying discover them, but think around, but you can offer common things.

Steven Bartlett 42:30 Yeah. Super interesting, and it, uh, uh, again, it perfectly explains why, in that moment, for some bizarre reason, my friend telling me, being very sort of rational with me, things that I genuinely-

Steve Peters 42:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:41 ... did accept to be true-

42:42 ... just completely diffused my brain.

Steve Peters 42:44 Because he's acting effective as your human.

Steven Bartlett 42:47 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Steve Peters 42:47 That's what he's doing. He's coming in rationally and stepping back and saying, "Let's look at the facts here."

Steven Bartlett 42:51 Yeah.

Steve Peters 42:52 And he's hit some nails on the head where you think, "Oh, that settled me down a bit."

Steven Bartlett 42:56 Yeah.

Steve Peters 42:56 So, but what tends to happen is, you tend to isolate yourself, most people do this after this has happened, and they go within themself and they engage these emotions, which generates more and more falsehoods and distorted ways of perceiving themself and the world-

Steven Bartlett 43:11 Mm-hmm.

Steve Peters 43:12 ... uh, instead of being able to, which is not easy, talk to themself rationally.

Steven Bartlett 43:17 Hmm.

Steve Peters 43:17 A- and preempting things like, you know, "Let's work with reality." It's not easy to do that. So when you can't do it, it's not a failure, you turn to your best friends and, and they'll do it for you.

Steven Bartlett 43:27 So what

Steven Bartlett 43:28 is the cause of unhappiness as you see it? Especially if you're building sort of machine learning applications that are gonna, you know, um, solve, you know, make people arrive at contentment or happiness in a personalized way, we must be able to know what's causing this-

Steve Peters 43:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:41 ... lack of happiness.

Mo Gawdat 43:42 A- a- allow me a bit of time to explain it-

Steven Bartlett 43:44 Sure.

Mo Gawdat 43:44 ... because it, i- it's simple when we get it, but it's not simple to get to it. So, so happiness is very predictable, okay? If you look back at any point in your life where you ever felt happy, there is one commonality across all of those moments that can actually be doc- be documented in a mathematical equation, okay? You've never felt happy because of a specific event in your life, okay? Uh, t- m- take for example rain, hmm?

Steven Bartlett 44:10 (laughs)

Mo Gawdat 44:10 Rain doesn't make you happy or unhappy. There is no inherent value of happiness in rain, okay? Uh, uh, rain makes you happy when you wanna water your plants and it makes you unhappy when you wanna sunbathe, right? And so it's not just the event rain, it's the comparison between the event and an expectation in your mind of how life should be, okay? If you're worried about your plants, then life should be generous to me and get me rain so I can water the plants. And if life does that, then life meets your expectations and you're happy, okay? And so happiness in that sense becomes equal to or greater than, so it's really mathematics, the, your perception of the events of your life minus your expectations of how life should be, okay? And apply that to anything, apply that to anything. So, you know, my favorite example is nature, hmm? We're all happy in nature. Why are we all happy in nature? I mean, you go out there and there are, uh, ants and there are flies and, you know, trees are crooked and there are, you know, shrubs everywhere and bushes and it's just really not that hedged and organized, but that's what we expect. So, you know, nature's chaos is what we expect nature to be, and so we feel happy. You know, nobody s- ever sits in front of the ocean and says, "I like the view, but please mute the sound." Okay? You just take it, you know, it's, it's the monotonous sound and the view and the wind and, and the sun and, and the whole experience, right? Uh, a- and because of that, hmm, uh, happiness becomes very different than what was defined to us, okay? What was defined to us is that happiness is found in, uh, uh, m- uh, gathering at the pub or a party or a, you know, an activity or some kind of pleasure or fun or elation or whatever that is. That's not at all true. These I, I call these the state of escape, okay? Happiness as per the definition of the happiness equation is events equal to or beating expectations, life going my way, okay? And so basically happiness is that calm and peacefulness you feel when you're okay with life as it is. It doesn't really matter what life is, okay? What matters is that you can be okay with it, right? So, so you take, you know, the, uh, uh, uh, any example, huh? If your boss is annoying, hmm, and your expectation is, "Yeah, bosses are annoying. This is what life is about. They become bosses because they're annoying," right?

Steven Bartlett 46:36 (laughs)

Mo Gawdat 46:36 And, and so if l- if that's your expectation, you're gonna look at it and go like, "Yeah, I need to learn the skill of managing annoying bosses," okay? And if that's the case, then you're not gonna be upset about it, hmm? Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, similarly anything else, huh, if you look at it then it's not just the event, hmm? It's your perception of the event, so you have a, a, a something to influence.

Steven Bartlett 46:59 Mm-hmm.

Mo Gawdat 46:59 It's not just the event, huh? Your partner might say something hurtful on Friday at 4:00 PM. That's the event, "My partner said something hurtful." At Sunday morning you tell yourself, "He or she doesn't love me anymore," okay? That's your perception of the event. That's not actually the event. The event is something hurtful was said, but your perception of the event is your work, is your, is your brain adding color to it and then you compare that to your expectations, right? You compare, "My boss is annoying," to, "My boss shouldn't be annoying." Where did you get that from? Right? So we blur the happiness equation, we break the happiness equation because of what I call the six and seven, okay? Six grand illusions and seven blind spots. Hmm? Which are, the six grand illusions are basically, uh, call them pathways, uh, that the modern world teaches us to navigate the modern world that are illusions, are not true, okay? Uh, take for example control. Everyone knows that to succeed in the modern world you have to learn to control certain events, right? So you start to believe that the way to succeed in life is to control everything, but the truth is, even if you go down to the basics of physics, that we never are in control. That the, the absolute design of nature itself, of the universe itself is entropy and chaos, right? That's the actual design. And so if you try to control it, you're bound to be disappointed, a lot of events are gonna miss your expectations, okay? And yes, I'm not saying don't control anything at all, but start to understand that you're ha- you're gonna be, it's selective because you have a finite amount of effort. And by the way, even if you're selective and you, you try to control everything, sometimes things will fall out of control. If you live your life through the illusion of control...... good luck finding happiness. So, six grand illusions, the illusion of, uh, of thought, the illusion of- the illusion of self, the illusion of, uh, knowledge, the illusion of time, control, and fear. Okay? Now, that's one side and that disrupts your, your entire view of what to expect from life because you're expecting life to behave through a lens of- a le- a lens of an illusion. The other side of it is what I call seven blind spots. Okay? And the seven blind spots are not really defects in your brain. As a matter of fact, they are the very design of your brain. Okay? Your brain is designed to tell you what's wrong. Okay? It's not designed to, you know, if a tiger shows up right here now, my brain has no u- use whatsoever in telling me, "Oh, my God. Look how majestic that animal is," right? Yeah, it's a beautiful animal, but my brain will say, "We're gonna die." Okay? And we're gonna die is the idea that basically makes our, uh, uh, our brain constantly look for what's wrong, blur the events of life, huh? You ask a mother, hmm, and- and she will say, "Oh, my daughter's been sick all winter." No, she just had two episodes of flu three days each, but to the- to the caring m- heart of a mother, that needs to be exaggerated to... Exaggeration is one of the blind spots. Hmm. Your- your brain is trying to get you to take action, so it pushes you. Hmm. It pushes you by exaggerating the event a little bit, so that you jump in and take action. And accordingly, the event you're comparing to, you're comparing the wrong event to the wrong expectation and the happiness equation falls apart.

Steven Bartlett 50:27 Under all of this, you're inferring something which I think will annoy a lot of people and that is that happiness is a choice.

Mo Gawdat 50:33 Oh, totally.

Steven Bartlett 50:35 And that you, you, you can choose to be happy.

Mo Gawdat 50:37 Totally.

Steven Bartlett 50:38 And that if you're unhappy, and really for many circumstances in our life day-to-day in work and love and relationships, personal responsibility is the- is the answer. And- and-

Mo Gawdat 50:48 It's entirely on you.

Steven Bartlett 50:49 ... and a lack thereof is the cause.

Mo Gawdat 50:51 Absolutely. You know what you just did? You've just lost us 80- 8% of the audience. To tell someone, uh, it's your responsibility to get yourself out of this horrible place that you're in is quite disturbing, because we like the idea of saying, "No, no, hold on. No, no, it's not me. Life is treating me really badly, that's why I'm not happy." Okay? "I can't do a th- anything about it. Life took my son. You know, life took my son, I have the right to be unhappy." Yes, life took your son, that's true, and you have the right to be unhappy, but you're never gonna get out of unhappiness if you wait for life to bring him back or you wait for life to correct its action. Okay? The only way you can come out of unhappiness is if you choose and say, "Okay, it's gonna be a long journey, it's gonna take a lot of time, okay? And I'm gonna try and try and try, but I'll get there." And- and neuroplasticity proves that. Neuroplasticity basically tells you that if you just run a happiness kind of activity once a day, every day your brain will be better at it. And- and, I mean, please don't get me wrong, but what do most of us do every day? We watch negative news, we swipe on toxic positivity, and we- we're just drowning ourselves in negativity. And then what happens? Hmm? What happens is we become really good at being negative. We become really good at finding what's wrong with life, become very good at, you know, ge- getting pissed off with the prime minister, right? Because it's an activity we do on daily basis, so your brain goes like, "This must be important for her or him, okay? I'm just gonna make sure I have the neurons aligned to a- around that." And so you're basically- we're basically configuring our brains to be unhappy. And- and that is the kind of neuroplasticity that we need to shift. You- you know, if you- if you go to the gym and lift weights every day, you're gonna look like a triangle. If you squat every day, you're gonna look like a pear. Okay? The same is happening inside your brain, you just don't see it. If you're constantly watching, you know, news media, right? You're literally building your muscles that are concerned and are, uh, you know, critical and are worried about the world, when in reality most of the time you can't do anything about it.

Steven Bartlett 53:01 There's something in there which is clearly a theme in, I think, three topics we've touched on, which is this theme of, like, radical acceptance.

Mo Gawdat 53:08 Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is what I call the Jedi master level of happiness. So, there are three levels of happiness, right? Uh, I call it the happiness flow chart. Hmm. Events are gonna piss you off. It- it's just the truth. Hmm. If you can manage to acknowledge your emotion and say, "Oh, my God. I feel s- am I angry? Is this anger? I mean, is this- is this what I'm feeling?" And then- and then you take that feeling and you say to yourself, "Okay, interesting. I am angry. I need to do something about it." I will give you three steps. Okay? The beginner's level is ask yourself if what you're thinking is true. Your partner said something hurtful on Friday, your thought is, "He or she doesn't love me anymore." Okay? Ask yourself if that thought is true. If it isn't, drop it. There's no point to be unhappy. If it is, then let's go to the black belt level of unhappiness which is, "Can I do thing- something about it?" That's the second question. "Is it true?" is question one, "Can I do something about it?" is question two. Right? And o- hon- honestly, by the way, it doesn't take more than two seconds to feel the emotion, ask yourself if it's true, and then go to s- to- to- to, uh, to, "Can I do something about it?" And if yes, then do it. What are you waiting for? Text him or text her and say, "Baby, can we please talk over dinner? What you said on Friday hurt me." Okay? Instead of just banging your head against the table hoping that they will find out and come and say, "Oh, I'm so sorry." You know, I- I ha- I- I was teaching this. This story really hurts me. I- I was teaching, uh, you know, when, before lockdown, I- I taught a lot of people in workshops and seminars p- more than two- 20,000 people. One- one day, one of them comes to me, uh, in the first break and says, "What are you talking about? What do you mean happiness is a choice? You have no idea what happened to me." Okay? And I said, "Okay." And she said, "When I was 17..."She was 74 at the time. Can you believe that? Hmm? 57 years of holding onto one thought, hitting her head against the wall. Right? And I hugged her. I hugged her, I cried. And I said, "Did it work? Did all of that work?" Or was the better thought, hmm, "Okay, it was horrible, but can I do something about it?" Okay? And that's question number two. That's black belt. Sometimes however, there's nothing you can do about it. Whatever she experienced could be irreversible. What I have experienced, the loss of Ali, is irreversible. There's nothing you can do about it. Okay? And I'm not asking everyone to get there quickly, but the Jedi master level of happiness is to say, "Okay, it happened and I have no choice to change it. There is nothing I can do to fix it. So can I accept it, but not surrender and lie down, and you know, and- and die? Accept it, and then start to do something to make h- my- my life better despite its presence, or maybe because of its presence?" Okay? Can I accept that Ali died, hmm, and start to spread his message so that my life and the life of others become better? Can I do that? I call that committed acceptance. Okay? And it's very simple. If you commit and accept to... Uh, if you accept things you- you can't change and commit to make your life better despite of or because of their presence, nothing can beat you. Nothing can beat you. And yeah, does it... Is it horrible that I actually managed to move on and- and, you know, not hit my head against the wall for 27 years? Uh, does that say I don't love Ali? What are you talking about? I- I adore Ali. I cry mi- about missing him still today, right? It's not that... It's, there is nothing to prove in that. Hmm. What- what I can prove is I love him so much, hmm, that I actually dedicate my life to spreading his message. That's so much better, hmm, than sitting there and saying, "Ah, life hit me. I don't like life," right? That's a six-year-old attitude, honestly. Okay? Adults will say, "Okay," and especially business people, I mean, your audiences, huh, "Ah, the market changes all the time." You sit down and go like, "Ah, I lost another deal." Or do you just get up and say, "Why- why did we do- lose this deal? What can we do about it?" Right? And if- if there is something wrong with the product, can we change the product, right?

Steven Bartlett 57:22 What you to- talked to there about business in particular rings very, very true, because in business, and you've been, you know, very successful entrepreneur yourself and worked with teams, you'll get people who are high in defaulting to logic in moments of chaos and also default to personal responsibility and those that don't.

Mo Gawdat 57:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:41 And the outcomes of both groups are quite predictable.

Mo Gawdat 57:45 Very different. Very different.

Steven Bartlett 57:45 Yeah.

Mo Gawdat 57:45 And actually, this a- this approach of, is it true, uh, can I do something about it, can I accept it and- and ch- uh, and commit, I learned that in business, and it's a very simple business approach. Now, most of us do that in business, but when it comes to our personal life, we don't do that-

Steven Bartlett 58:03 Mm-hmm.

Mo Gawdat 58:03 And interestingly, hmm, most of us, by the way, who do that in business are very successful in business, and most of us who do that in life are very successful in life. It's not just happy. It makes us h- It makes us successful because it doesn't waste our cycles on things that are not necessary. So if- if you can do it at work, do it at home, do it in your life, do it in your relationships. It's really a very straightforward flowchart.

Steven Bartlett 58:29 I hope you enjoyed that look back at my, uh, life changing moments from my first 100 episodes. I've got to say November, December, January, we're publishing the best podcast we've ever published. When I saw the guest lineup, I genuinely was like, I looked at the list and thought, "How? How is it possible that my idols, world exclusives, people I've wanted on this podcast since it began many years ago have all decided to come in the same month?" And honestly, November and the guests we're recording with within that month, which will be published over the next three months, is the reason I started this podcast, and it's a real sign of where it's going and the platform it's become. So thank you for sticking with me. It's going to be one hell of a last quarter. I- I know that it's gonna change my life for good, that's for sure. And I can't wait to bring you more People's Diaries. Have a wonderful week. Quick one. As many of you know, I've been trying to make my life a little bit more sustainable as it relates to energy ever since I sold my Range Rover Sport and bought an electric bicycle. And MyEnergi, as a sponsor of this podcast, is one of the brands that make that transition much, much easier. They are at the forefront of British renewable eco-smart technology, and their products are really, really changing the game. If you're on YouTube, you can see what I'm holding in my hand. This is called the eddi, right? It's the UK's number one solar powered diverter. So what is a solar diverter? It's a device for people like you and me, that means you can divert your excess energy back into your home rather than back into the grid, which will save you power and money. It's super user friendly and easy to install, and you can control it using the MyEnergi app on your phone. To find out more about this product and more products like it that will help you make that sustainable transition, head over to myenergi.com, and, um, I highly recommend you check out the eddi. (instrumental music) It's, um, it's a real game changer of a product and one that I'm gonna be installing in my home soon.