The Diary of a CEOLife Changing Lessons From 100 Of The World’s Greatest Minds | E104
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 24,298 words- 0:00 – 0:54
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow. We've now recorded more than 100 episodes of The Diary of a CEO, and I've had some of the most amazing, inspiring, and life-changing conversations with some of the world's most accomplished experts, business people, psychologists, athletes, you name it. So this week we're gonna do something a little different, something many of you have requested for a long time, and something I've always wanted to do. This week we're gonna look backwards. This week I'm gonna share with you the key moments, the actionable, life-changing, epiphany-inducing moments from the last 100 episodes that had a lasting impact on me, that changed my life. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music)
- 0:54 – 8:30
How to find consistency and reach your full potential - Jamil Qureshi
- SBSteven Bartlett
We hear this, uh, phrase, um, a lot, which is, "Find your passion."
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I almost feel that it's- it's in many respects quite harmful because it- that question is kind of loaded. It- it- it assumes a singular passion for a start.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It- it assumes that you can discover it like an Easter egg, and then, and also, um, the- the context in which that question usually sits in implies that once you find it, then it's, you know, then it's the- the- the ... it's a kind of unlimited, like, happiness and orientation forever.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then that's yours, and it- it ... I just feel like sometimes language can be harmful because it- it simplifies very complex things, and sometimes multifaceted, plural things, you know? So, I wondered if that, you know, that phrase, uh, "Find your p- find your passion," was something you, um, you felt similar about or you ... yeah.
- JQJamil Qureshi
(laughs) Yeah, I do. I mean, yeah, uh, uh, it's true that passion can be a significant multiplier of human potential.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JQJamil Qureshi
So, you know, if people are passionate and engaged in a business, they can direct their energy in a- in a worthwhile and meaningful manner. So- so- so it's- it's worthwhile, but you're right, uh, that, you know, there's a big difference between passion, a big difference between happiness and joy. Um, some are in the moment. At home I think joy is in the moment, and I think happiness is something, um, that we continually- continually adjust towards. Um, you know, passion can be a significant multiplier of human potential, particularly in the workplace, so it does have a place. It is something which is useful to understand. And then ultimately, it always comes down to personal introspection and self-awareness for me, and I think that, um, we need to work harder at understanding ourselves, and when we are constructing a mindset which is conducive to performance. So we optimize our potential when we're in a particular state of mind, and that state of mind might be passion, it might be relaxation, it might be enthusiasm, might be enjoyment. But we need to almost get to know ourselves and know that, um, there are certain things which enable us to do others. At home, I want people to work backwards and understand what that looks like. Maybe we can gain some more consistency. I say to a lot of sports people and to a lot of business people that consistency of mind gives you consistency of play, and I'm convinced of it. You know, the more consistent we can be in our thinking, we understand, um, the building blocks, the component parts to success, you know, t- the more success we can have.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how does one establish consistency of thought? Um, 'cause I completely agree with that. I completely agree. I've seen that in my own life when I've been consistent with my thinking, I've managed to, you know, um, perform the same habits every day.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, but then sometimes I'll lose consistency in my thoughts because I lose, um ... I lose ... I guess I l- lose attachment or sort of my anchor with my- my why.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I- I talk a lot, I've talked a lot on this podcast over the last couple of weeks about this realization I've had this year with the gym, which was every year, February, March, I was incredibly motivated to go. I was fired up, trying to look good for summer.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Right. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then o- obviously once you look good and summer has ended, it's almost like you've lost your anchor, right?
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, like, you get into September and the why which made you go into think consistently every day has been ... is evaporated, and I'm try... I can't get myself to go to the gym in October. (laughs)
- JQJamil Qureshi
Right. Do you know, I mean, I always think that consistency of mind comes from understanding the intrinsic quality of our decision-making processes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JQJamil Qureshi
And I say that a lot to people in sport and in business. So, yeah, you can make a good decision and have a really bad outcome, or you can make a bad decision and have a good outcome. And this is why I've worked with leadership teams who have confused luck for genius, made a really bad decision, got a great outcome.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- JQJamil Qureshi
You know, markets have changed, competition's done something.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, yeah.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Something's just worked in their favor. Um, so, um, so it's really important for us to not judge our decision-making by our outcomes, and we often do. So we'll say, "This is a good decision because it resulted in this," or, "This was a bad decision, it resulted in that." Um, and we can only understand the outcome retrospectively, so it's wrong to measure our decisions by the outcomes. And then we need to go back to how we made a decision in the first place. Then once we start to understand the intrinsic quality of our decision-making process, we can become more consistent in how we make decisions-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JQJamil Qureshi
... and therefore have more control over those outcomes. So I think that, you know, two things. That, uh, I think that ... and then we'll use you as the example here, Steve.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Please. (laughs)
- JQJamil Qureshi
That, um, that consistency of mind will come from knowing how we make decisions, and to understand that we put, um, our weight into evidence, how much we use prejudice and bias and opinion, whatever it might be. But let's understand how we make decisions, and in that way we can be consistent in, um, how we apply our logic in thinking and feeling to try and determine some best outcomes. And then the other thing that, um, as you've just positioned, is reframing. That, um, let's stand back and create some time and space to understand at home, you know, why we do things and why we don't do things. Now, I always say that, um, the people who are most successful, and I've had the pleasure of working with six sportspeople who got to number one in the world, I can guarantee you the one thing they had in common was that, um-
- 8:30 – 19:27
Importance of failure - Elizabeth day
- JQJamil Qureshi
the way forwards.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I wanna talk about failure-
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... now. (laughs) Which seems like a good thing to talk about. And in your book Philosophy, you, you list seven failure principles.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Number one, failure just is.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Failure is a fact. It's inevitable. It's gonna happen to all of us. No matter how much we try to avoid it, I guarantee that it will happen. And that can feel scary, but it can also feel liberating. 'Cause once you've accepted it as a fact, there's no point in trying to avoid it, so you might as well take the risk. So, acceptance of failure starts with the observation of it. Failure is a fact, but how you respond to it is within your control. Whether you decide to feel like a failure for many years after the thing that's happened, or whether you think to yourself, "Okay, well, that's taught me something and I'll do it differently next time."
- SBSteven Bartlett
I guess the risk there is one bad failure and people stop trying.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then I, I, I was thinking, this is very similar to confidence in the way that, like, if you have one bad failure, your performance next time you get an opportunity, if you actually don't manage to just avoid it completely, will probably be worse because of nerves and that, you know, the memory of "I'm terrible" and-
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then that's gonna increase your chances of failing again. And then the kind of, like, self-negative reinforcing cycle kind of continues and your, your confidence and your sort of, yeah, your guts kind of cascade downwards. And can, for some people, work in the other direction where you have a success, your confidence builds-
- JQJamil Qureshi
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you walk on stage to do that, you know, public speech next time around with a bit more confidence. You do a better job, which increases-
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... your chance of success and it cascades upwards. That how failure works from your experience or?
- JQJamil Qureshi
It, it can work like that. I mean, to take the example you've just given, one of the ways of looking at that, if you're then stuck in a downward cycle and you're failing and you're trying at the thing, is that you're therefore in the wrong situation. So, you're in the wrong workplace, for instance, that, that isn't generous enough to, like, make you feel okay after your failures or doesn't make you feel like you can be your true self. In which case I would argue you need to remove yourself from that situation and find the place that does suit you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Or it can be a question of mindset and a question of applying that mindset that we've just talked about, which is, "Okay, I failed. I'm feeling in a downward spiral." How much of that is fact? That's a very difficult thing to do on your own when you're at a very low ebb, and that's why I'm a huge advocate of therapy. And again, I know that I come from a priv- privileged place where I can afford therapy. But even if it starts with reaching out to your friend and talking about it, or reaching out to your work helpline and talking about it, or texting Shout, the mental health charity, or calling The Samaritans, that's a really valuable step. And the other thing that I would say there is that I'm very aware that my definition of failure, which is what happens when life doesn't go according to plan, has a fatal flaw (laughs) , which is that sometimes there are failures that are totally cataclysmic that we couldn't possibly have predicted that go against any plan whatsoever, like a global pandemic, like a terrible illness that you contract, like the death of a loved one. It would be monstrous for me to sit here and say those failures are as easily assimilated or learnt from or dealt with as failing your driving test. And so I, I'm not saying that at all. Those kind of failures will require a process of mourning and coming to terms with the thing that you've lost. And that's absolutely right and as it should be. My only thing is, the way that I choose to live my life is-... I mourn, but I don't have to constantly relive the pain. I can still feel sadness about something, but I don't need to live in that place of reliving it constantly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Becoming a victim?
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yeah. And becoming defined by that. I can choose to be defined by something else. I can choose to be defined by my response to it. I can choose to find some kind of meaning in something that was meaningless at the time. And that's how I choose to live my life because that makes it less sad, and I, and I think that that choice is available f- for most of us.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So point number two in your book is you are not your anxious brain. I think you've talked about that.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Yes. I met this man called Mo Gawdat, who used to be the chief business officer of Google X, but he wasn't happy, and he has a lot to say about expectation versus reality. So if we can manage our expectations of life, so if they're equal to or less than our perception of events and how they turn out, then we can be happy or contented. And he was the one who really brought it home to me that we are not our worst thoughts, that our thoughts are produced by our brain as organic matter-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JQJamil Qureshi
... in the same way that blood is pumped around our body by our heart. Like, we wouldn't think we were defined by our blood, so why would we think that we are our thoughts?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JQJamil Qureshi
But actually, as you know, the premise of all meditation is that you can observe your thoughts. Who's doing the observing? That's you. That's you. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JQJamil Qureshi
Why would you need thoughts... y- y- like, you don't need to communicate to yourself, so your thoughts are just being produced by your brain constantly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 19:27 – 26:48
How to build confidence and self-esteem - Matthew Syed
- JQJamil Qureshi
they're feeling.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that brings us to the topic of mindset-
- MSMatthew Syed
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... really nicely. You know, I've, I've heard you talk about having a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. What is the difference between the two?
- MSMatthew Syed
So I think f- for ... Thank you. I th- For what it's worth, I think this contrast is, is so important. I mean, I can talk about it through my own life, but, you know, in a fixed mindset people think that success, however defined, is all about talent, having the gift, uh, having the genetic inheritance in or- you know, having the personality trait in order to excel. A growth mindset is saying, "Okay, talent obviously matters, it's a factor, but it's not enough, it's what we do with our talents." So people in a fixed mindset have two massive risks. One, they think they're so talented they don't even need to try.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MSMatthew Syed
So think of a young person who's just been, um, invited to join the Manchester United Academy and they're suddenly getting money into their bank account, they're able to buy the fast car and they think, "I'm God's gift." And they ... And the amount of academy coaches who have come to me and said, "We don't understand it. We had this hardworking youngster, we invited them into the academy and then they just went off the rails," it's a fixed mindset. They think their success is assured so they stop putting in the hard yards and don't transition into the first team. So that's one danger. The other danger is people who don't think they're God's gift, but w- like me at Goldman Sachs, you make one failure and you interpret that as meaning, "I obviously don't have talent, therefore I'm just gonna give up."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ah.
- MSMatthew Syed
Do you see what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, so that's the negative version of it.
- MSMatthew Syed
S- Yeah. So you've got the, "I'm super ... Talent is everything and I've got it, so therefore I don't need to try." "Talent is everything, I don't have it, therefore I should give up." They're both terribly, uh, damaging-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MSMatthew Syed
... I think. A growth mindset, it doesn't mean that we think we're all gonna be the best speaker in the world. I wasn't the best table tennis player in the world, I never got into the top 20 of the world rankings, but with that attitude I maximized my own potential.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, I'm very intrigued as to, um, you know, c- certain people in our society, um, more self-believing than others, um, you see differences in, um, genders and races and, and b- backgrounds and I think a lot of people in my DMs, um, I, I'm ... And this is where the question comes from, I have so many young kids in my, my DMs that are struggling with, um, confidence or s- lacking self-belief, and I wondered if you had any words of wisdom for those in my DMs that can't find confidence and self-belief.
- MSMatthew Syed
I, uh, think, for what it's worth, um, that self-belief, self-esteem, other things of that kind are overrated. Um, and the reason goes back to something we said earlier. I mean, there was a movement in the '70s and '80s in Western education to build self-esteem in young people and the way to do it was to let them succeed all the time, right? So, so you might remember this, but it would ... You'd give them easy tests, get them to pass, and give them lots of t- and then praise them for how super talented they were. They get all this self-esteem and they can change the world. People were so worried about undermining self-esteem that there were no losers in sports days at some schools. I don't know if d- y- have you heard of this? That everyone's a winner?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, I've, I've ... Yeah, everyone gets a sticker and
- EDElizabeth Day
Yeah.
- MSMatthew Syed
You know, and that was all about building ... It was called the Self-Esteem Movement.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right, okay.
- MSMatthew Syed
But it failed.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MSMatthew Syed
And the reason it failed is because people would keep succeeding and, you know, they'd get all this self-esteem and then (laughs) , and then they'd be given a difficult test, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MSMatthew Syed
Or they would leave school and they would actually hit the real world where they would fail. And what happened? All the walls of their world would come crumbling down, "Oh my goodness."
- SBSteven Bartlett
They never failed before.
- MSMatthew Syed
Right, self-esteem that is fra- ... And people would protect their self-esteem by not trying new things, right? And, and that's a disaster. Self-esteem can be very fragile. I, I like to talk much more about resilience. We want p- ... We w- I want, I want my children to be resilient, to try new things, to mess up, but not to be devastated by it. And that, I think, is a much better
- EDElizabeth Day
Yeah.
- MSMatthew Syed
... quality. Now, it may be that when people are talking about confidence what they really mean is resilience. I wanna be able to walk into a, to, to a room, give it my best shot, things don't g- go slightly wrong, I'm gonna carry on regardless. Every person who's a success has had some really tough, difficult moments, um, and I just think that's an inevitable part of life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do we build resilience in ourselves?
- MSMatthew Syed
Growth mindset's very strongly related to it. So instead of, um, you know, for parents out there, I don't ... You, you probably have a very young audience, I'm, I'm sure amazing, but, but, uh, the parents out there, it's very easy to praise young people for their talent, "You're super ta-" You know, they've just drawn a picture, "You're super talented. You're the next Picasso." You think they're gonna develop all this self-esteem. The problem, as I've said, is that, you know, the moment they draw something that isn't Picasso, as soon as they get negative criticism, "Oh my goodness, I'm no Picasso after all."... um, much better thing to do is to praise them for the effort or the process, "Well, I love the way that picture... the, the colus fit together." They think, "Oh, right, if I want to develop as a painter, I have to make the colors fit together in a more sophisticated way." You're aligning their mind and motivation with the journey they need to take to fulfill their potential. So, it's good experiments, praising for effort, praising for process is a much more, um, positive thing than praising for talent and fixed attributes.
- 26:48 – 32:00
How to deal with uncertainty - Anna Hemmings
- SBSteven Bartlett
into that place of uncertainty that they have to travel through before they get to their new self. How do you get someone to come willingly into uncertainty, to leave that job or to, you know, take on that promotion or to pivot in their career when they're scared of the unknown? Or, you know, it's like...
- AHAnna Hemmings
Well, then I would think about what... I would think about... Rather than what I'm afraid of, I'm thinking about what I'm excited about.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And so rather than I'm afraid of what I'm gonna leave behind or I'm afraid of what might happen, I'm ex-... I'm more about what could happen.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And when we focus on what we want and what we could have and... You know, it's, it's optimism, isn't it? It's about what's possible-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
... and what could I achieve? You know, and you asked me earlier about, you know, what... some of the things about sports psychology, and visualization was one of... was a massive technique-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- AHAnna Hemmings
... that I learned from my sports psychologist and employed and still use all the time. And I think when you can start to visualize what that new role, person, identity could be, and when you bring it to life with all of your senses and see it really vividly, then that's exciting.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AHAnna Hemmings
And what, what, what could I achieve? And what could this look like? And, and the power of visualization is that your mind does... When it's... When you see it really vividly, your mind doesn't know the difference between a vividly imagined experience and a real-life experience.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's your process for visualization? And now, is it something that you do actively, you set time aside and do it, or is it just something that you naturally now do when you're pursuing a goal?
- AHAnna Hemmings
So, a little bit of both. As an athlete, it was definitely something that I would sit down, usually I'd be lying on my bed, I would have done some relaxation because the more we clear our mind and relax, the easier it is to visualize and to see really clearly. And so I would... it would be a conscious, "Right, I'm gonna spend the next 15 minutes or even two minutes or five minutes," or whatever time I had, "visualizing my next race and seeing myself execute that race plan as perfectly as I can and in exactly the right way." And I would visualize everything from, um... if it was this, this... the Olympic discipline, and, um, we've got nine boats on a start line, I'm seeing my s-... I don't know which lane I'm gonna be in when it comes to race day, so I'm seeing myself race in every lane. I'm seeing myself with, with a headwind, with a tailwind, with it raining. I'm seeing myself cock up the start because that might happen, but then I'm just gonna recover from it, and I'm gonna see myself recover, and I'm gonna see myself win from behind. I'm gonna see myself win from the front. I'm gonna see... Imagine, you know, the start being delayed or it's a false start, you know, all these eventualities so that when it comes to the event, I'm prepared and it can just all un- unfold and I'm not fazed by anything that happens. But, but most importantly, I've seen it happen the way I want it to happen and then I believe that it can happen. And what visualization also does is when we, when we're visualizing a goal, for example, it starts to activate the subconscious to generate creative ideas about how we can achieve our goal. It's, it's, it's mind... I don't know how it works and why it works, but it's mind-blowing and it does work, and it, and it starts to, um, uh, get your brain to perceive and recognize the different, um, resources that you need to achieve your goal. It's, it's like the law of attraction, and it starts to activate that in your life and bring in the people, the resources, the environment, the circumstances that you need to achieve your goal. And so now...... what do I do? I probably, I do spend some time consciously going, "Right, I'm just gonna spend two or three minutes visualizing my goal." I'm seeing it happen. I'm seeing i- it realize. Um, but then other times, I'm probably just, you know, driving in my car and subconsciously... You know, like, daydreaming almost. But I think the- the conscious, "Right, I'm gonna visualize now," is really powerful. Because then you start to really... It starts to ingrain in the subconscious.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. I talk to you guys about Huel a lot, so I'm gonna do a quick intermission to tell you about a bit of a change that's happened in the last two months in my life. As you guys know, my favorite Huel product historically has been the ready-to-drink, which is these bottles here. They are nutritionally complete. However, recently, since Huel introduced the Huel protein, this now plays a huge role in my diet. The salted caramel flavor protein from Huel, which is only 105 calories and has 26 vitamins and minerals and 20 grams of protein, um, serves two roles in my life now. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I have a glass. And then at nighttime, after I've been to the gym, straight after the gym, I have a glass. It tastes amazing. If you're gonna try it, follow my instructions here. Get a couple of cubes of ice, put it in a blender, put on the salted caramel protein, and it tastes like a delicious smoothie. I've already gone through one tub of this. I'm actually on my second tub, and I've got two more tubs to go before I'm gonna reorder more. But genuinely, the salted caramel flavor, maybe because I have a liking for salted caramel, for me has been a game-changer.
- 32:00 – 43:28
How to get over heartbreak - Steve Peteres
- SBSteven Bartlett
Professor Steve Peters. Steve's invented this groundbreaking concept called the chimp model, and it focuses on how there's these kind of three parts to our brain. The first part is called the chimp, which is our sort of desire to be impulsive and irrational and emotional and short-term. The second part, uh, is what he calls the human, and you'll hear him talk about this, which is logical and rational and thinks in terms of facts and thinks things through in the long term. And the third part is what he calls the computer, which is our set of core values and beliefs. I wanted to talk about ex- exactly that topic, which is, like, managing your emotional reactions-
- SPSteve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, across different facets of life. And I think, um... Uh, go, let me just give you an example of a situation that I went through that I wrote about in my book. So, I'm just gonna be completely honest-
- SPSteve Peters
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because that's what I tend to do on this podcast. Um, I broke up with a girl. And, um, like two days later, I found out that she had slept with somebody else.
- SPSteve Peters
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And when I f- even though I'd broken up with her, e- when I, when I read the message that she'd slept with somebody else, my brain-
- SPSteve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Doo-fff, "Revenge." Message her.
- SPSteve Peters
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Destroy her life. (laughs) That's what my brain said to me. But I, um... And, and I'm at a place in my life where I feel quite secure in my self-image, let's say.
- SPSteve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't feel particularly insecure. I'm, I'm, I'm a confident person. But even I couldn't seem to get a grip of my own desire to react emotionally in that situation.
- SPSteve Peters
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and really interestingly as well, it was actually my friend calling me. I went to the gym, I thought, "Maybe I'll go to the gym, and that'll, like, clear my head." I, it was my friend calling me, and, and this, I don't know where this fits in psychiatry, but my friend said to me, "Steve, just remember, you broke up with her. She's probably doing this to, um, make herself feel better and to, you know, rebound or whatever." But, um, that was one of those key moments where I was like, "Oh, God, like, ugh, the damage you can do if you don't know how to control that, like, primitive-"
- SPSteve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... urge to just, 'Ugh!'"
- SPSteve Peters
Okay. You've covered a lot of ground there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- SPSteve Peters
That could be an hour's work here.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SPSteve Peters
So I'm gonna take it back, and I'll try and go very steadily to try and drive home... There's a lot of areas.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPSteve Peters
One is, first of all, what would you expect somebody's mind to do, confronted with the same situation? What would you expect them to do?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Probably the same thing.
- SPSteve Peters
Exactly. So nothing abnormal happened. There wasn't a problem.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPSteve Peters
You're saying this is absolutely healthy and normal but maybe not helpful.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPSteve Peters
And what you really said, because you've told me this, if it wasn't a problem to you, you wouldn't have mentioned it.
- 43:28 – 1:00:28
How to be happy - Mo Gawdat
- SBSteven Bartlett
is the cause of unhappiness as you see it? Especially if you're building sort of machine learning applications that are gonna, you know, um, solve, you know, make people arrive at contentment or happiness in a personalized way, we must be able to know what's causing this-
- SPSteve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... lack of happiness.
- MGMo Gawdat
A- a- allow me a bit of time to explain it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- MGMo Gawdat
... because it, i- it's simple when we get it, but it's not simple to get to it. So, so happiness is very predictable, okay? If you look back at any point in your life where you ever felt happy, there is one commonality across all of those moments that can actually be doc- be documented in a mathematical equation, okay? You've never felt happy because of a specific event in your life, okay? Uh, t- m- take for example rain, hmm?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Rain doesn't make you happy or unhappy. There is no inherent value of happiness in rain, okay? Uh, uh, rain makes you happy when you wanna water your plants and it makes you unhappy when you wanna sunbathe, right? And so it's not just the event rain, it's the comparison between the event and an expectation in your mind of how life should be, okay? If you're worried about your plants, then life should be generous to me and get me rain so I can water the plants. And if life does that, then life meets your expectations and you're happy, okay? And so happiness in that sense becomes equal to or greater than, so it's really mathematics, the, your perception of the events of your life minus your expectations of how life should be, okay? And apply that to anything, apply that to anything. So, you know, my favorite example is nature, hmm? We're all happy in nature. Why are we all happy in nature? I mean, you go out there and there are, uh, ants and there are flies and, you know, trees are crooked and there are, you know, shrubs everywhere and bushes and it's just really not that hedged and organized, but that's what we expect. So, you know, nature's chaos is what we expect nature to be, and so we feel happy. You know, nobody s- ever sits in front of the ocean and says, "I like the view, but please mute the sound." Okay? You just take it, you know, it's, it's the monotonous sound and the view and the wind and, and the sun and, and the whole experience, right? Uh, a- and because of that, hmm, uh, happiness becomes very different than what was defined to us, okay? What was defined to us is that happiness is found in, uh, uh, m- uh, gathering at the pub or a party or a, you know, an activity or some kind of pleasure or fun or elation or whatever that is. That's not at all true. These I, I call these the state of escape, okay? Happiness as per the definition of the happiness equation is events equal to or beating expectations, life going my way, okay? And so basically happiness is that calm and peacefulness you feel when you're okay with life as it is. It doesn't really matter what life is, okay? What matters is that you can be okay with it, right? So, so you take, you know, the, uh, uh, uh, any example, huh? If your boss is annoying, hmm, and your expectation is, "Yeah, bosses are annoying. This is what life is about. They become bosses because they're annoying," right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
And, and so if l- if that's your expectation, you're gonna look at it and go like, "Yeah, I need to learn the skill of managing annoying bosses," okay? And if that's the case, then you're not gonna be upset about it, hmm? Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, similarly anything else, huh, if you look at it then it's not just the event, hmm? It's your perception of the event, so you have a, a, a something to influence.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
It's not just the event, huh? Your partner might say something hurtful on Friday at 4:00 PM. That's the event, "My partner said something hurtful." At Sunday morning you tell yourself, "He or she doesn't love me anymore," okay? That's your perception of the event. That's not actually the event. The event is something hurtful was said, but your perception of the event is your work, is your, is your brain adding color to it and then you compare that to your expectations, right? You compare, "My boss is annoying," to, "My boss shouldn't be annoying." Where did you get that from? Right? So we blur the happiness equation, we break the happiness equation because of what I call the six and seven, okay? Six grand illusions and seven blind spots. Hmm? Which are, the six grand illusions are basically, uh, call them pathways, uh, that the modern world teaches us to navigate the modern world that are illusions, are not true, okay? Uh, take for example control. Everyone knows that to succeed in the modern world you have to learn to control certain events, right? So you start to believe that the way to succeed in life is to control everything, but the truth is, even if you go down to the basics of physics, that we never are in control. That the, the absolute design of nature itself, of the universe itself is entropy and chaos, right? That's the actual design. And so if you try to control it, you're bound to be disappointed, a lot of events are gonna miss your expectations, okay? And yes, I'm not saying don't control anything at all, but start to understand that you're ha- you're gonna be, it's selective because you have a finite amount of effort. And by the way, even if you're selective and you, you try to control everything, sometimes things will fall out of control. If you live your life through the illusion of control...... good luck finding happiness. So, six grand illusions, the illusion of, uh, of thought, the illusion of- the illusion of self, the illusion of, uh, knowledge, the illusion of time, control, and fear. Okay? Now, that's one side and that disrupts your, your entire view of what to expect from life because you're expecting life to behave through a lens of- a le- a lens of an illusion. The other side of it is what I call seven blind spots. Okay? And the seven blind spots are not really defects in your brain. As a matter of fact, they are the very design of your brain. Okay? Your brain is designed to tell you what's wrong. Okay? It's not designed to, you know, if a tiger shows up right here now, my brain has no u- use whatsoever in telling me, "Oh, my God. Look how majestic that animal is," right? Yeah, it's a beautiful animal, but my brain will say, "We're gonna die." Okay? And we're gonna die is the idea that basically makes our, uh, uh, our brain constantly look for what's wrong, blur the events of life, huh? You ask a mother, hmm, and- and she will say, "Oh, my daughter's been sick all winter." No, she just had two episodes of flu three days each, but to the- to the caring m- heart of a mother, that needs to be exaggerated to... Exaggeration is one of the blind spots. Hmm. Your- your brain is trying to get you to take action, so it pushes you. Hmm. It pushes you by exaggerating the event a little bit, so that you jump in and take action. And accordingly, the event you're comparing to, you're comparing the wrong event to the wrong expectation and the happiness equation falls apart.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Under all of this, you're inferring something which I think will annoy a lot of people and that is that happiness is a choice.
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh, totally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that you, you, you can choose to be happy.
- MGMo Gawdat
Totally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that if you're unhappy, and really for many circumstances in our life day-to-day in work and love and relationships, personal responsibility is the- is the answer. And- and-
- MGMo Gawdat
It's entirely on you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and a lack thereof is the cause.
- MGMo Gawdat
Absolutely. You know what you just did? You've just lost us 80- 8% of the audience. To tell someone, uh, it's your responsibility to get yourself out of this horrible place that you're in is quite disturbing, because we like the idea of saying, "No, no, hold on. No, no, it's not me. Life is treating me really badly, that's why I'm not happy." Okay? "I can't do a th- anything about it. Life took my son. You know, life took my son, I have the right to be unhappy." Yes, life took your son, that's true, and you have the right to be unhappy, but you're never gonna get out of unhappiness if you wait for life to bring him back or you wait for life to correct its action. Okay? The only way you can come out of unhappiness is if you choose and say, "Okay, it's gonna be a long journey, it's gonna take a lot of time, okay? And I'm gonna try and try and try, but I'll get there." And- and neuroplasticity proves that. Neuroplasticity basically tells you that if you just run a happiness kind of activity once a day, every day your brain will be better at it. And- and, I mean, please don't get me wrong, but what do most of us do every day? We watch negative news, we swipe on toxic positivity, and we- we're just drowning ourselves in negativity. And then what happens? Hmm? What happens is we become really good at being negative. We become really good at finding what's wrong with life, become very good at, you know, ge- getting pissed off with the prime minister, right? Because it's an activity we do on daily basis, so your brain goes like, "This must be important for her or him, okay? I'm just gonna make sure I have the neurons aligned to a- around that." And so you're basically- we're basically configuring our brains to be unhappy. And- and that is the kind of neuroplasticity that we need to shift. You- you know, if you- if you go to the gym and lift weights every day, you're gonna look like a triangle. If you squat every day, you're gonna look like a pear. Okay? The same is happening inside your brain, you just don't see it. If you're constantly watching, you know, news media, right? You're literally building your muscles that are concerned and are, uh, you know, critical and are worried about the world, when in reality most of the time you can't do anything about it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's something in there which is clearly a theme in, I think, three topics we've touched on, which is this theme of, like, radical acceptance.
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is what I call the Jedi master level of happiness. So, there are three levels of happiness, right? Uh, I call it the happiness flow chart. Hmm. Events are gonna piss you off. It- it's just the truth. Hmm. If you can manage to acknowledge your emotion and say, "Oh, my God. I feel s- am I angry? Is this anger? I mean, is this- is this what I'm feeling?" And then- and then you take that feeling and you say to yourself, "Okay, interesting. I am angry. I need to do something about it." I will give you three steps. Okay? The beginner's level is ask yourself if what you're thinking is true. Your partner said something hurtful on Friday, your thought is, "He or she doesn't love me anymore." Okay? Ask yourself if that thought is true. If it isn't, drop it. There's no point to be unhappy. If it is, then let's go to the black belt level of unhappiness which is, "Can I do thing- something about it?" That's the second question. "Is it true?" is question one, "Can I do something about it?" is question two. Right? And o- hon- honestly, by the way, it doesn't take more than two seconds to feel the emotion, ask yourself if it's true, and then go to s- to- to- to, uh, to, "Can I do something about it?" And if yes, then do it. What are you waiting for? Text him or text her and say, "Baby, can we please talk over dinner? What you said on Friday hurt me." Okay? Instead of just banging your head against the table hoping that they will find out and come and say, "Oh, I'm so sorry." You know, I- I ha- I- I was teaching this. This story really hurts me. I- I was teaching, uh, you know, when, before lockdown, I- I taught a lot of people in workshops and seminars p- more than two- 20,000 people. One- one day, one of them comes to me, uh, in the first break and says, "What are you talking about? What do you mean happiness is a choice? You have no idea what happened to me." Okay? And I said, "Okay." And she said, "When I was 17..."She was 74 at the time. Can you believe that? Hmm? 57 years of holding onto one thought, hitting her head against the wall. Right? And I hugged her. I hugged her, I cried. And I said, "Did it work? Did all of that work?" Or was the better thought, hmm, "Okay, it was horrible, but can I do something about it?" Okay? And that's question number two. That's black belt. Sometimes however, there's nothing you can do about it. Whatever she experienced could be irreversible. What I have experienced, the loss of Ali, is irreversible. There's nothing you can do about it. Okay? And I'm not asking everyone to get there quickly, but the Jedi master level of happiness is to say, "Okay, it happened and I have no choice to change it. There is nothing I can do to fix it. So can I accept it, but not surrender and lie down, and you know, and- and die? Accept it, and then start to do something to make h- my- my life better despite its presence, or maybe because of its presence?" Okay? Can I accept that Ali died, hmm, and start to spread his message so that my life and the life of others become better? Can I do that? I call that committed acceptance. Okay? And it's very simple. If you commit and accept to... Uh, if you accept things you- you can't change and commit to make your life better despite of or because of their presence, nothing can beat you. Nothing can beat you. And yeah, does it... Is it horrible that I actually managed to move on and- and, you know, not hit my head against the wall for 27 years? Uh, does that say I don't love Ali? What are you talking about? I- I adore Ali. I cry mi- about missing him still today, right? It's not that... It's, there is nothing to prove in that. Hmm. What- what I can prove is I love him so much, hmm, that I actually dedicate my life to spreading his message. That's so much better, hmm, than sitting there and saying, "Ah, life hit me. I don't like life," right? That's a six-year-old attitude, honestly. Okay? Adults will say, "Okay," and especially business people, I mean, your audiences, huh, "Ah, the market changes all the time." You sit down and go like, "Ah, I lost another deal." Or do you just get up and say, "Why- why did we do- lose this deal? What can we do about it?" Right? And if- if there is something wrong with the product, can we change the product, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What you to- talked to there about business in particular rings very, very true, because in business, and you've been, you know, very successful entrepreneur yourself and worked with teams, you'll get people who are high in defaulting to logic in moments of chaos and also default to personal responsibility and those that don't.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the outcomes of both groups are quite predictable.
- MGMo Gawdat
Very different. Very different.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
And actually, this a- this approach of, is it true, uh, can I do something about it, can I accept it and- and ch- uh, and commit, I learned that in business, and it's a very simple business approach. Now, most of us do that in business, but when it comes to our personal life, we don't do that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
And interestingly, hmm, most of us, by the way, who do that in business are very successful in business, and most of us who do that in life are very successful in life. It's not just happy. It makes us h- It makes us successful because it doesn't waste our cycles on things that are not necessary. So if- if you can do it at work, do it at home, do it in your life, do it in your relationships. It's really a very straightforward flowchart.
Episode duration: 1:00:28
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