The Diary of a CEOLouis Theroux: "The Thing That Makes Me Great At Work, Makes Me Bad At Life!" | E198
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,763 words- 0:00 – 2:02
Intro
- LTLouis Theroux
What makes me good at my job is also what makes me bad at life. This is maybe more than you bargained for.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Louis Theroux!
- LTLouis Theroux
Our next guest has interviewed everyone.
- SBSteven Bartlett
New York!
- LTLouis Theroux
My money doesn't jiggle-jiggle. It's a cathedral of poor. That's a little offensive.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're a very fascinating person. How do you connect with people?
- LTLouis Theroux
I'm just so curious about what takes someone to that place, why people do the things that they do. The question I get asked most often is like, "How do you not get angry with some of these people, especially the ones who are sort of spewing hate?" If- if people see like, your attempt to wrestle intimacies from them, that's never gonna go well. I think also there's some part of me that thinks maybe the other person's got it figured out and I haven't.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your former wife said, "There's nothing real about you." Jimmy Savile, he also said something about insincerity being your speciality.
- LTLouis Theroux
That's good. I'm glad you brought that up.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
I remember it vividly. First of all...
- SBSteven Bartlett
"I neglected my personal life to focus on achieving professional success. The price was paid by those nearest and dearest to me." When did you get that feedback?
- LTLouis Theroux
I saw my relationships as a life support system for my kind of work self, instead of the other way around, saying to my wife, "Well, this is what I do." I did a lot of great segments just by being available at a moment's notice. I just think, "Oh, this isn't going well." So it became a bit of an impasse.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is it something that comes with a cost, and is it something you want to change? Before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask from you. Two months ago, 74% of people that watch this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%, so if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you, and enjoy this episode.
- 2:02 – 12:18
Early context
- SBSteven Bartlett
Louis, you're a very fascinating person.
- LTLouis Theroux
Thank you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) And I've, you know, I've... As I read through your story, I read your autobiography as well, I was trying to understand what I needed to understand about your earliest experiences to really understand the man that you are today-
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the- the interesting personality you have, and the trajectory you went and took in your life. So please enlighten me. What- what- what are the most pertinent things that I need to know about your earliest years to understand you?
- LTLouis Theroux
Oh, my goodness. We could... I could... I could... I'd spend two hours answering that question on its own.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
I don't know how interesting it would be. I'll try and give you a brief answer.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I like the long answers.
- LTLouis Theroux
Oh, do you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
Well, s- first of all, my, um, parents are... My mum's British, my dad's American. They are both, um, in- in different respects sort of free thinkers, that they- they grew up in the '60s and they embraced aspects of the counterculture. They regarded their own parents as being, in certain respects, sort of limited and cloistered, and- and- and so my mum joined, uh, VSO, Volunteer Service Overseas, to get experience of life in Africa. My dad joined the Peace Corps. He would've been probably enlisted to serve in Vietnam and he didn't wanna do that, so he went to teach in Africa as well, and that's where they met. So I was raised... Um, I was born in Singapore, where they were teaching, uh, my brother was born in- in Uganda, where, um, where they were teaching at that time, my older brother, but then we set- they settled in London. And- and so growing up, I was conscious of- of them as people who- who- who really n- encouraged us to open our minds, and maybe, you know, in- in... it was sort of 99% positive, like 1% at the... Look, like, a lot of peop- You know, people use this term social justice warriors, right? Like it's a taught form of judgment about overly do-gooding. Like, there- there's an element of... I don't tend to use that term, 'cause I sort of, I sort of... It's become... It's been- it's been weaponized. But I suppose in a sense my parents were kind of social justice warriors. Like, they were very much encouraging me to challen- or us to challenge racism where we saw it, to challenge sexism, to be, uh, open to new experiences, not to fall into easy judgments about other cultures and other countries and other people. And- and- and- and I only say the one percent, it- sometimes that can be inflected with a little bit of a sense of superiority, and I talk a bit about that in my book, a slight feeling that we weren't really, like, quite like other people, you know? Other people were maybe not quite as smart or not quite as literary, you know? And I don't, I don't... You know, I strive not to endorse... Or whatever is in me, remains in me, of that I try to unpack and eradicate. But nevertheless, that's the way, looking back on it, that's something that I see and pick up on. My dad's a writer, a novelist. My mum is a... You know, after teaching, uh, my dad became a very successful literary novelist and travel writer. My mum went on to become a radio producer and worked for the BBC World Service, which is, for- for those who don't know, that's the service that broadcasts all over the world, and it's- it's a bit like Radio 4 but broadcast... You know, this tiny language. It's an extraordinary institution. It sort of represents, in some ways, the best of the BBC. But, um... So I was growing up sort of aware that we, you know, we were a family that loved books and- and loved reading, and, you know, we watched TV and listened to pop music and did the normal things, but I think underneath it all was a feeling that to really count in life, um, you should be a literary writer. Like that was, that was, without me fully maybe acknowledging it, that was underneath this thing, that you should really... I think still my dad probably feels that. Like, he's very supportive of me and my TV making, but he's like, "Lou, you thought... Have you thought about writing another book? Lou, you're... you're, you know, you've got time, you've got the talent. You can... I don't wanna push you into this, but Lou, you know, you should think about writing a book. That's a great idea for a book." You know, that kind of thing?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
Anyway, so that, all of that was under- underlying-... my attitude to life. Then they sent me off to, um, school, primary school. I'm gonna have to, I've got- I mean, you wanted a long answer. This is maybe more than you bargained for. I suppose alongside that is the in- the influence of friends. And, and, and, you know, I could start... The, the, and the, so the countervailing impulses of growing up in the '70s and '80s in South London and being exposed to funny, creative people, and my friendship group which, wh- who, you know, involved... Me- some of them have gone on to work in sort of civilian, quote-unquote, lives as, you know, restaurateurs or, or, or, or, you know, music, other stuff. But, but sa- saliently were, uh, Adam Buxton, Joe Cornish, and another friend, Zack Sandler, who were super creative. Adam and Joe went on to have their own TV show. And I was conscious of falling in with a little group, Amelia, of, of, um, like-minded kids who are very funny, really into movies, TV. And that was where, I suppose, I began to feel that there was... Well, you know, I don't wanna... O- in hindsight, it's tempting to, um, sort of read back, read back what I do now into that. But I just know that that, that friendship group was very important to me and maybe counteracted some of the more... 'Cause I was academic. I was, I was... I did really well at school. I feel like I just go on and on. Shall I keep- Go. Shall I keep going? I just listen here. 'Cause the other part of it was that I was, um, I was quite an anxious child so I, I w- I w- I worried about everything. And, uh, I, I would think about things that were on the horizon. Like when I was five or six years old, I remember fixating... You know, there were various things that came and went that really worried me, but one was, um, the idea of Maypole dancing, which was a big... I don't know if it's still... Like in, in p- in s- state primaries, um, at that time, every May holiday, like, you would do pr- Maypole dancing. What is that, sorry? It's, it's a, it's, it's a, it's an old English or maybe British tradition where there's a big pole. I think it's like a fertility rite. (laughs) You know, there's a touch of wicker man about it. You know, there's an enor- en- enormous kind of mast, a pole, like maybe, like, like a totem pole almost, like sort of 20 feet high. And then there's ribbons around it. And as children, you would skip round it and you would sort of braid the ribbons together to form nice patterns. And I remember seeing them doing it in primary school and thinking like, "That looks really hard and I'm gonna have to do that next year, and I don't know how I'm gonna do it." And just, I remember being preoccupied with, "How am I gonna learn how to do that?" I only mention that as an example. Like there were other things, like just reading. You know, before I could read, I remember seeing my older brother reading and thinking, "God, I don't know how you do that." And, and just getting very worried about it. So in general, my l- I'm someone who is pr- I know everyone worries, but I just feel as though that feeling of worry and anxiety was quite a strong background note. And sometimes I would control my anxiety, not consciously, but again looking back, by working hard. Like wha- by, by, by sort of just sort of becoming, uh, almost like super focused on academic work. And, um, and as a result, I did very well in school and, um, you know, like th- those people who look back and say like, "Well, I was a fuckup in school," I was the opposite. Like I didn't always... You know, I would get in trouble, like and sometimes I was regarded as, especially when I was younger, 12, 13 is a disruptive element 'cause I was also quite cheeky and sometimes tried to com- communicate and connect with people via teasing, right? Which is, I don't know if that's a common... It's quite a British thing in a way. It was certainly a big thing in my family was what's now called bantz, right? And sometimes I try and do bantz with my teacher and then it wouldn't go well. (laughs) And so... But, but in general, which is confusing like regarding, being regarded as a black sheep in class or a disruptive person in class and then, um, but then also getting in trouble. They said like, "It's fine for you to mess about and get in trouble. And then you do the homework and you're fine, but you're a bad influence on the other kids." I used to get told that, "You're a bad influence on your..." I was like, "That's not true at all." Like if anything, my friends were just as naughty and were leading me astray. But nevertheless, because I could sort of go home and then become sort of organized and focus on my work, I got a, I got for a brief period, I got labeled as the troublemaker. Anyway, going through school, I, I sort of, um, the sort of the, the l- the lodestars for my, um, sort of sense of who I was and how I would progress in life, such as it is. I mean, I was never that tactical. But as I went, as I went through school I thought, "Well, I'm, I'm pretty g- good academically. I guess I'll just do well in exams and stuff and then see what happens." And meanwhile with my friends we'd be seeing movies. I got into rap music in the late '80s and so would dress like a sort of hip hop nerd. I was smoking quite a lot of weed but still studying. This was sort of again age 16, 17, but it never really interfered with my, with my work. I went on to Oxford and then having done well at Oxford, um, left university and, and at that point it was like, "Well, what happens now?" That was when it felt like, "Okay, now I've no longer really got a clear path." Does that make sense? Yeah. You know, I think if you, if you are, if you're academic, if you find academic work not easy but you find that you do well at it, 'cause it's not easy, but you apply yourself and you do well, then sometimes life can be a weird, um, bump in the road. Like real life it's something like, "Well, where are the exams? 'Cause I know I can do those. You know, what do I do now?" So for a while I thought maybe I would be like a professor or an academic or something. But then something in me told me that wasn't quite right. So then the rest of life is another story but I th- I hope that sort of answers your questions about wha- tho- those different, um-... those different, uh, so-sources of, of, of, of how I s- you know, my p- whatever it is, personality and interests.
- 12:18 – 20:47
Your early relationship with work
- LTLouis Theroux
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things that really stood out to me, in that answer was your, your early relationship with work. You said you used to work hard to kind of suppress, or kind of distract yourself from the anxiety of life. Is that accurate?
- LTLouis Theroux
Well, what it is, is, um... Well, I, I worried about things in general (clears throat) and, um, you know, one of those worries was homework or doing well in, in, in school. Like, another worry was getting on with my peer group. But, uh, in so far as I can... I could control those sources of anxiety like, w- you know, y- I... Work is actually relatively straightforward. Like, if in terms of like, "How do I get more..." You know, "How do I attempt to relate to people better?" Well that's, that's kinda hard. It's like mysterious. But, "How do I do well at these assignments I've been given?" Um, then you just sit down and do them, um, until you get it right. And, and, you know, a lot of these things are... aren't, are, are subconscious. Like, I'm not thinking like, "Oh, how can I control my anx- anxiety?" But I would just find that I, I, I... If, if exams were coming up, I'd get super anxious. And, um, and I don't mean to pathologize it, like I've never been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. I've just s- slightly worry prone. And as it happens, I've become less worry prone as I've grown up. And it may be that there were other things going on, you know, in my family life. Who knows? Um, in, in, you know, my parents' marriage wasn't always happy. They subsequently divorced. There were other things that probably were going on that were stressful. But for whatever reason, I found that all without... almost without meaning to, I, I would... I took my studies, um, very seriously. I have to sort of slightly check myself when I say this, 'cause I do... I'm also aware that (clears throat) I've looked back at some of my reports, having kind of got quite attached to this narrative of myself as sort of super swots, right? Super studious. And (clears throat) I've looked at some of my old report cards and some of them are, are... especially when I'm six or seven, sort of say, um, you know, "Louis is a pleasure to have in class, but, uh, it... sometimes it would be nice if he would let other s- pupils speak. He, he, he enjoys the sound of his own voice," kind of thing, which is very apropos for this podcast probably.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
You know, and like, so, so I, I, I, I had a sort of rambunctious side and in... almost in social settings. My mum tells a story, it's actually in my book, but of, of how when I was about five or six I would come home and I'd be really sad. I'd be like, "I don't know. I don't think... I don't like school anymore." And she'd sort of think, "Well, Louis is obviously not getting on well at school. I need to talk to his teacher." And she went into... to class and, um, and talked to the teachers and said, "Do you understand Louis is very sensitive? He's a very sensitive young man." As I said, I would've been maybe five or six, seven years old and the teachers were like, "Really?" "Yes, he's a very sensitive... Like, y- just be mindful that, you know, things you can say might hurt his feelings." Something like that. And they were like struggling to recognize her description of me. And then on the way out of class, she passed the classroom, could see through one of the glass windows in the door and I was running along the desktops or doing a dance-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
... on top of a desk. In other words, like, it was almost like in the setting itself, I was a wild child and, and
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
... children should be running amok. But also, I had like this doubling, like then, then I'd go home and be kind of... be, be worrying about small... Which I think is probably still true of me in some ways, that I have a, um... I have that sort of disruptive, trickster impulse alongside a certain, um, a certain sensitivity.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that a defense mechanism or a, a, a way to, I don't know, survive in a social setting? Or is that the true nature of you?
- LTLouis Theroux
I think it's who I am.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
And I think... You know, I could say, "Oh, well, I was a younger child and my parents found me funny and I, I wanted to perform and I'm... I, I, I wanted my dad to, you know... I, I wanted to get my... the approval of my parents by being silly." But the fact is, is who knows?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LTLouis Theroux
Like, I just know that, you know, things like your sense of humor or your inclination to, to be cheeky, that's just always been in me. You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LTLouis Theroux
And, uh, you know, I, I'm slightly wary of attempting to, to sort of, um, unpick where that comes from because I just know that's, that's, that's always been in me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The relationship with work, I, I think even for myself, I, I learnt my relationship with work at a very young age. And I've... I think I developed quite an unhealthy relationship with work at the expense of other things that matter in life.
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah, me too. I think I can relate to that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's what I was trying to understand is like when did your... where did your relationship with work come from? On one hand, I was guessing maybe it's from his father who was very, you know, insistent on-
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in, in being an intellectual is a... is success, Louis. Or is it from the distraction of a- from anxiety and from the social thing where you could be successful at exams 'cause you were good at that, so you doubled down?
- LTLouis Theroux
I think it was all of the above. Like, my dad's got... both my parents have work ethics that border on the sort of being over the top. My dad, uh, would... You know, he's a, he's a... as I said, he's a writer and he... the weekends, like he didn't really take weekends off. Like, certainly Saturdays he would often be writing and Sunday mornings he was often writing. And, and he, he's an extra... I, I want to give both my parents a shout out. See, um, my parents were, um... were basically first generation university educated. Came from j- very much not at the high table o- of life. And, and so for my dad to, to sort of become a wealthy literary writer, it's kind of an amazing thing that he did. You know, in the world of...You know, it's one thing to be a- a popular novelist, that's hard anyway. To be a- a- a novelist or travel writer who's extremely successful and, you know, sold hundreds of thousands or millions of books just, uh, without any leg up in life is an amazing thing. And, um, uh, I wonder if I've ever told him that. I- I hope I have. Anyway, he'll listen to this probably 'cause he, he follows my, he follows my, uh, career with interest. So some of that I would've taken on board just through osmosis of seeing that. Likewise, um, my mum being super studious going to Oxford. Grew- she grew up in Tooting, you know, and, and her, her sense of s- self-belief or her sense of her own destiny, whatever it was, and in her small, you know, peer group of kids who were educated at a state school and then through her own hard work and the support of her teachers going to Oxford, you know, in the '60s as a woman, that was extremely unusual. So that wa- that was in the air. But in the end... And, and my older brother who was very studious. And the other thing just to reflect on is that I saw my brother as the more brilliant child. Like, he was, to, to... The way I saw it at the time, was more effortlessly b- brilliant. Like, all... Sort of child prodigy material, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
And I thought I was just kind of a sort of irrelevant bit of afterbirth that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
... you know, trailed around after him. And so when I noticed that I was getting fairly good results, um, when I was sort of 11, 12, it didn't feel particularly impressive. Like, it felt like, "Well, I guess I can, I can do well if I work hard. It's not like I'm kinda brilliant like my older brother." Um, but I think when I... You know, again, in hindsight, I think mainly what I see is, um, is a sense that I just felt like this was something I had to do, it wasn't a choice. And I even, later on when I was at university, I sometimes used to worry that, um, "I wonder if I'm missing out." You know, people say, "It's the best years of your life and you should be hang- you should be just going wild, having fun." I did a, you know, some of that, but I was also conscious of, like, "Maybe I'm missing out by working, by studying too hard."
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's what I read in- into your story of-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... of university, was that. I wrote, I actually wrote in my notes, "Worked his ass off at Oxford."
- 20:47 – 27:18
Affection
- SBSteven Bartlett
On the point of affection, this is also something I probably didn't learn from my parents, if I'm honest. I still call my parents by their first names. Um-
- LTLouis Theroux
Did they encourage you to do that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes. Yeah. Or I- I just didn't, I didn't learn affection. And actually, you know, even growing up at 10 years old, when one of my friends turned to me and went, "You're my best friend," my body like, "Ugh." 'Cause the-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the idea that s- I was someone's best friend made me cringe. And I had this, I think I had this, like, emotional intimacy affection issue growing up.
- LTLouis Theroux
Although, I think being a best friend is something you show but don't say.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah (laughs) .
- LTLouis Theroux
Which is a bit creepy. "You're my best friend."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah (laughs) .
- LTLouis Theroux
I remember feeling stressed when a- a friend said that to me and, and thinking... Uh, 'cause then you feel like if they, "Oh, you're my best friend," and then it feels a bit inauthentic.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
Yes, you're like, "Do it, don't say it."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah (laughs) .
- LTLouis Theroux
You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah (laughs) .
- LTLouis Theroux
"I love you."
- SBSteven Bartlett
It didn't feel necessary to say.
- LTLouis Theroux
"Okay, then, steady on."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah, exactly. Yeah (laughs) . But, but wha- what is, what did you learn about affection at a young age?
- LTLouis Theroux
I, I feel really lucky that my parents, um... I feel as though they were... You know, they w- they worked hard. Like, my, had working mum, my dad was, as I say, had a huge w- drive to be successful. But I, I always felt like the love that they had for me was just taken as read. Like, I never questioned it. Do you know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
In a way that felt positive. And even though, you know, I think there's a tendency or a temptation nowadays to look back and, and be thinking about things that could've been otherwise. And I think, you know, parts of that therapy culture are really valid. But there's also a sense in which, um, you can focus on negative stuff. And I'm not sure, at a certain point, how, how healthy or helpful it is. And, and, and f- so for me, I, I never kinda questioned the love, the love that they, they had for me. And it, it was, it was never the case that I felt I was kind of, um, seeking their approval. Like, I remember friends at school saying, "Well, my, my parents say if I do well in common entrance, they're gonna get me a watch." And I remember thinking, "That's quite weird." You know? Or my, my parents never li- never felt like they needed to be... I, that I was, in any sense, doing, like, working hard for them. And if they took an interest, that was kind of a bonus, but I didn't rush to show them, like, "I got all As," or, you know, I was, "I came first in all the exams," or whatever. I wouldn't really talk to them about it. Like, that was just something that I did for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about emotional expression? I think that's something that we learn, how to say, like, "I love you," and to hug, and to be... to touch, and-
- LTLouis Theroux
Uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause you said bantz. You said-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah. Like, I've... Ma- ... Humor is really important. I say such a kinda... What? Because that's so dead, it's cringe.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
I always hear my kids' voices in my head, but, you know, "Humor is a very important way of communicating." You know, humor is r- really s- I o- often think, you know, in terms of h- how I see life... That's why I'm v- I'm worrying I sound a bit humorless.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
But anyway, how I see life is, like, humor is like the, the missing dimension in terms of w- it's almost it can't really be expressed. But, my, uh, we, we shared a sense of humor as, as a family. And so, we would make each other laugh, and-So, teasing was important. Like, little... Um, just not taking yourself too seriously. My parents w- I would say, um, like, I respected them. I would have... I see how my kids behave towards me, and I'm... That classic thing of like, "God, if I did that to my parents, that would not have gone well." It's not that I think of them as being especially strict. I didn't feel they were at the time, but I wouldn't have dared to, um... I don't know, like... There- there was a sense of- of- of them having bou- boundaries that I would respect and observe.
- 27:18 – 32:13
What is your dark-side
- LTLouis Theroux
on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It reminds me of something Tim Grover said, which I've repeated a few times. He says he used to train Michael Jordan and, uh, Kobe Bryant, and he w... I spoke to him on this podcast when we did the LA run. And he said that sometimes an event that happens in our life, or something that happens, can create our brilliance.
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It can be responsible, in the case of that kind of void of independence your parents create. Create someone that works, and that goes and gets stuff, and that's able to travel and be an island. Um, but it al- also can create our dark side.
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, the same event creates our brilliance, but also our dark side. So my question to you is, from that particular experience of having that independence and feeling a bit like you were a side thing in their lives, what was then the- the dark side? I can see the upside. I can-
- LTLouis Theroux
What's the upside?
- SBSteven Bartlett
For me, it- it felt like the upside, you were saying, is the independence you had-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... at- at their work.
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah, yeah. The... Being in a space to grow and become your own person, and not feel that you're especially kicking against anything, but licensed to follow your own interests. I think that's all positive. I think, um... Uh, what is the- the...? Look, I think in general... What... You know, I've said this, and probably someone else said it as well, like that, you know, what you think may be your disability is also your superpower.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. Exactly.
- LTLouis Theroux
And I think, um... Uh... I think that I en... I think... I've struggled with intimacy sometimes. My... You know, and- and I think I... I- I... You know, in terms of relationship building in- in my private life, like it's- it's a running joke between me and my wife, like that she's extremely sort of emotionally acute, and that I'm slightly the opposite, which is kinda weird when you think about my job, which hinges on supposedly being sort of maybe emotionally or psychologically perceptive. But it- it's almost as though... But I see it in my mum as well. Like, my mum, having worked at the BBC, went into, um, therapy and became a relationship counselor. And it's funny because, um, my mum also finds it difficult sometimes to- to fully inhabit her- her emotions. If it doesn't sound an odd thing to say. And- and- and I don't know, I'm gonna probably regret saying that, but let's make it about me. And I think wi- with me, I think, um, yeah, I don't always find r- intimacy easy. Like, it's a... It- it- it's... So- so- so I sort of... I- I experience... Like, a lot of the times my work is a- is a license to be intimate without consequences, like to get... To- to... A bit like what you're doing now. Like, you talk to people, someone in a prison, you know, who's been sentenced to 10 life sentences. It's just like, "Okay, how does that feel? So what is- what's life like?" And- and then kinda get- getting... Or whatever it happens to be. All the work I've done, in some sense, is about attempting to peel layers back and- and see inside someone's psyche, and then get on a plane and fly off and go home and live my normal life, almost at a- a less intimate plane of existence.And, um, so clearly- You know, and the other joke I've made over the years is like, oh what makes me good at my job is also what makes me bad at life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
So, uh, so for me it's- I think- and I think you- if you ask my friends, they might say, you know be like, 'Oh yeah, you know, Louis is a good guy," I hope they would say that. But- but they also might say like he's a little bit absent, like he's a little bit, um... I- I don't feel I'm an- an especially attentive or present friend. And- and- and you know, I'm not... You know some people are really gifted at friendship, like they-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh my god.
- LTLouis Theroux
...they like really g- they're there and they think about and they make arrangements and I don't make really s- I- I'm not very good at social arrangements. All these sort of boring things that are the qualities that are really the stuff of life, like, um, just getting together, reaching out, "Are you okay? How's- it's been a while since I saw you. When did- let's meet up, let's..." Which in general, this is a crass generalization, but I think women are slightly better at than men. And I think that's been one of the many gifts my wife has given me, is actually involving me in life, like in a just a normal sort of neurotypical way. Whereas I- my tendency would be to sort of disappear into my slightly incel like shell, you know, of- of kind of in a metaphorical shed of kind of counting... I- the joke in making my book is like, you know, separating my collection of screws and nails into their different jars. You know what I mean? Like that for me is like that- you know a lot of guys would be like, "Yeah that sounds like heaven to have two hours to organize my shed," you know, and not- and not realize that you're missing out on the tapestry of life.
- 32:13 – 35:22
Struggling to connect with people
- LTLouis Theroux
So I plead guilty to whatever that is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
Maybe that's just being a man.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I can- I can relate to-
- LTLouis Theroux
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's funny, I was ha- having this conversation yesterday with my friends where they were all saying, "Yeah, Steve doesn't like to socialize." You know, he- I- I would rather sit upstairs for seven days on my own working than like... It was someone said to me, they said, "You meet all these wonderful people on this podcast-"
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"...and you- and it's such a wasted opportunity that you don't text them like, 'Hey let's go for a coffee.'"
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's just outside of my nature. My nature is to sit alone on my laptop and work.
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And so again, my girlfriend, my partner-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...is the opposite.
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So she's dragging me in, so ............................
- LTLouis Theroux
I think it's quite a common dynamic. You know, not bragging, two nights ago I was a GQ Man of the Year.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I see.
- LTLouis Theroux
Thank you. Applause. Thank you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
Um, uh, I was one of the honorees and, um, so there was a, like there was a- a banquet, like a- a- a posh dinner catered by Heston Blumenthal. And, you know, Stormzy was gonna be there, Mo Salah, Leah Williamson the footballer.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I didn't get an invite. I must have ............................
- LTLouis Theroux
So it's not just men now, it turns out. Uh, extraordinary list of like Andrew Garfield, an extraordinary list of incredible people. And it wasn't even an awards banquet. It wasn't even like the BAFTAs like where you sit and sit through the speeches and then at half past 10 when you're starving, hungry, and quite tired you sit down and eat your food. This was like a banquet banquet, where you just sit round and have a delicious meal and then a few people pop up and say a few words between starter and the main course. So it was like... And it wasn't even that... It was like maybe a couple hundred people, like quite small as these things go. But the point is- is, before on the evening of, I was like, "I don't wanna go." And I said, uh, I knew I had to go, but I said to Nancy, my wife, I was like, "I am not feeling this." She's like, "What is it?" I said, "I just- I can't... You know, I don't know, I just feel really anxious." And she's like, "But you're not even giving a speech, are you?" You know, 'cause sometimes it's that, like what if we win and I have to give a speech? Or- or you're worrying about whether you're gonna win. It's like, I knew I was an honoree and I knew I wasn't gonna say any... I wasn't gonna have to give a speech. And it was just the idea of- of having to talk to people. Like, oh, and in a relatively high wa- uh, high wattage setting so you think like, "I don't wanna be wandering around like a blithering idiot." So there's a sort of s- little stress that sits alongside that. But there was no real reason on paper why I shouldn't have been thinking, "Wow, this is gonna be amazing. This is gonna be a night I'll remember my whole life." You know? And I attempted to adjust my mindset, you know, using kind of Paul McKenna-like or Uri Geller-like, you know, just visualize, think about what this is. This is gonna be... No one's expecting anything off you. This is a chance to sit down with some- some amazing people and have fun. But nevertheless, for the first kinda hour I was there just thinking. I kept just sighing, (sighs) and Nancy would be like, "What's the matter?" So I think that's just for what it... I think that's in me, it's probably in a lot of- a lot of people and, um, you just deal with it. But that, you know, why- why should that be the case? I don't- I don't really know why.
- 35:22 – 43:24
Feeling anxious doing new things
- LTLouis Theroux
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is it something that comes with the cost, and is it something you want to change?
- LTLouis Theroux
Uh...
- SBSteven Bartlett
If you're being really honest with us.
- LTLouis Theroux
If I could dial down... I think sometimes I think I have changed it actually is the first thing to say, because there were times in my life where I said no to things just because I thought that's gonna be... A bit like the... You know, I did the maypole dancing in the end and it went fine. I did learn, this will surprise you, but I did learn how to read and, you know, despite all the anxiety I had about doing that. And so, and then as life went on I think there were times when I said no to things, opportunities, which probably just because the idea... I- I was asked to go on David Letterman's chat show, um, when it was on CBS. This would have been in around 2001 and I said no 'cause I thought that's just gonna make me anxious. And looking back on it, I probably wish I'd done that. It's not huge.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why would that- why would that make you anxious?
- LTLouis Theroux
I find the chat show experience o- o- not especially... I mean, I've done it a few times and- and as life goes on it seems... You know, the idea of public speaking or, you know, when I first got into TV-It, it was like, "Why am I doing this? This is not me." Like, "This is not what I was cut out for. This is not something that I aspired to do," and it sounds really... you know, the whole notion of it feels, um, intimidating and, and, and just a bad fit. And, and nevertheless, I knew that, you know... you know, just briefly, like, I was working in magazines as a, um, as a journalist in New York, and, um, that's... I- I- I aspired to be a, a TV writer, partly as a way of sort of avoiding comparison with my dad. Not directly, but I suppose that was in my mind was like, "I wanna write and be creative, but I know I'll never write books." You know, I didn't feel like I wrote... when I wrote, it didn't feel especially as though it came as easily as I sh-... as it should. You know, it's hard when your dad... Like, I relate to people with famous parents like, you know, people like... you know Jacob Dylan?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
Who's Bob Dylan's son? I don't know why I reached for that comparison-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
... but Jacob Dylan, that track, One Headlight, do you remember that one?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No.
- LTLouis Theroux
Okay. For people who know, they know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
You know, it's a great track, was a huge international hit, but his dad's Bob Dylan. That's a painful... maybe not painful, but that's an extraordinary legacy to be born into, and in a, in a related way, like, I was conscious of my dad. His name as a writer really meant something, and that it was, um... that if I was to attempt to write something, it was gonna be a case of very likely, kind of, falling short, at least in my own mind. But the idea of writing in television w- was, was less... I felt that it would se-... would, would, wouldn't invite the same comparisons. Plus, I used to watch TV and I liked TV and there was something about the democratic, kind of, nature of television, the fact that everyone watches TV. I thought, "Well, that's a way of working in a medium that will connect with people," and so it was in the mid-'90s. TV was, uh, in a, kind of, a mini golden age. The Simpsons was on, Seinfeld was on, Friends was just about to come on. The- there were all these amazing TV shows. Larry Sanders was another one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you want to connect with people? You studied history at Oxford-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and as someone that is, appears to be a bit of an introvert by nature, from what you've said about your experience-
- LTLouis Theroux
I sort of double-... I'm... I have a duality where-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do-... yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
... I'm partly shy and introverted and then partly outgoing and an extrovert.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So with your writing and with the TV writing, was your... and with the magazine writing, I know you did some stint at, um, Spy and was it Metro in Boston?
- LTLouis Theroux
Metro in San Jose.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In San Jose?
- LTLouis Theroux
San Jose, California.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was your o-... was your objective and th- the thing that you found fulfillment in your work from, was that connecting with people?
- LTLouis Theroux
Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Or was it just, you know-
- LTLouis Theroux
I don't... I think I connected with people, not to sound, um, ox-... you know, oxymoronic or whatever it is, no, tautologist, by connecting with people. Like, in other words, like, I always find I do my best connecting (laughs) sounds a bit weird-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah (laughs) .
- 43:24 – 46:34
Your new series
- LTLouis Theroux
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you know what's funny is my team are very honest with me, and we were in the car the other day, and I believe it was Holly, Holly in my team, who might be upstairs now, and I said, um... we were talking about you're, Louis is coming on the podcast, and I said, "Oh, he's got the new s- series out where he interviews people," and I turned to, I think it was Holly, it might be someone else, so sorry if it's someone else, um, I turned to them and said, "How is it?" 'Cause they'd seen it before me. And they went, "It's actually really good."
- LTLouis Theroux
Oh, nice.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's what they said to me.
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And they would be, and they would be so honest with me. They went-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... "It's actually really good," and then they explained-
- LTLouis Theroux
But, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... why it was good.
- LTLouis Theroux
... what is up, 'cause with me, here's my thing, like, that actually, like isn't it... it's actually, like, when I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, it's actually really good.
- LTLouis Theroux
But, see, when I... because I've, I'm a very glass half empty kind of guy-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
... it's with respect to praise.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
So, what I'm hearing there is it's actually-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Surprising, is, is-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah, I mean, like, s- 'cause I'm hearing, like, is that a surprisingly? In which case, why would that be surprising?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I can, I think I can assert why it wou- would be surprising.
- LTLouis Theroux
Go on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, I think that the generation Holly's in-
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... they don't watch, um, shows like that on BBC One, typically.
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And so-
- LTLouis Theroux
BBC Two, but-
- SBSteven Bartlett
BBC Two, sorry.
- LTLouis Theroux
... that's fine.
- SBSteven Bartlett
On the BBC-
- 46:34 – 56:49
Conforming vs being disruptive
- LTLouis Theroux
- SBSteven Bartlett
TV. I, I read when you were 18, s-... I think maybe 16, um, if someone had said to you that you would end up in TV, you would've, you would've been sort of perplexed at how that would've... the steps that it would've taken-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to get you there.
- LTLouis Theroux
That's definitely true.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're, you're in San Jose, I believe, at the time, um, is that where Spy was, the magazine?
- LTLouis Theroux
No. I w-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was that Boston?
- LTLouis Theroux
So, so, uh, rewind, just to rewind, and I, and I also wanna mention one other thing, which is... 'cause we talked a little bit about studying, and, and I feel as though th- whatever that is, that work ethic has stood me in good stead. But I don't feel that that's... I often think there's, you know, a very understandable s- sort of misconception about the level of importance of, of academic work, you know, that whole stay in school kids. And, you know, we were talking, I think off, off mic about Mr. Beast, the YouTuber and, you know, the media landscape we're in now, it, it would just... it's just simply not correct to say that, "Oh, the path lies through academic work," right? And I was talking to my cousin, Justin Thoreau. Oddly enough, he says Thoreau, who's an actor, he's a director, uh, a writer. He wrote Tropic Thunder, Iron Man 2. He's been in... he's also like high profile Hollywood actor. I interviewed him for my podcast. I'm not trying to plug... that would be weird to plug one pod- podcast on another podcast. But he, and he, he was like someone who struggled in the academic setting. Like, he wa-... he had ADHD. He, um, flunked out of a school. He went to another school where they recognized his special needs. But the point is that I sort of think so many as-... I think we under val-... we took... there's a tendency to undervalue those parts of, of, um, of life that c- that lead to success that, that exist. I mean, maybe you... maybe I'm sort of out of line here, 'cause it sounds like you are, are all over this, but those parts of... like, the parts of life that helped me become whoever I am, part of it's academic, part of it's... wa- was almost inimical to academic success. It was the part that was free spirited and naughty and that was bunking off school and seeing movies and, and, um... or, or get- getting me in trouble and, and, and, and-... whatever that is. And it's hard to really bottle it and know quite what it is. You know, there, there is something that I struggle sometimes with over discipline, right? And, and, or a sense of like doing well in controlled settings. But actually it's that you need the yin and the yang of both. And when I went out and did stuff that was successful on TV, like wo- working, doing my first segments at a show called TV Nation, having been hired by Michael Moore when I was 23, partly like a work ethic, you know, doing preparation and being, you know, turning up on time, as they say is like 90% of the battle. But actually then b- b- being just sort of a- l- a- allowing those creative juices sort of to, to co... You know, whatever that mysterious quality of, um, humor and connectivity, just b- b- being silly and disruptive, like those are really valuable.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They say, don't they? They say conformity is great to succeed in school, but it's not great to succeed in life. Those-
- LTLouis Theroux
Maybe that's what it is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You kinda need to be... to un-conform once you get outta-
- LTLouis Theroux
You sort of do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
And I think, and, and I wanna come back to your question, but, but I do think that that's also, you know, three, four years ago I started a company and there's a part of me that's overly, um, sort of overly conventional, you know, and, and as a result seeks out unconvention in my work. And that's positive, you know, 'cause it means that I love spending time with people who feel like they give free rein to the darkest and weirdest impulses that I think to an extent we all share but keep repressed, you know, whatever those happen to be. People involved in sex work or, or, or people involved in religious cults or, or hate groups. And, and that, that's sort of my stock-in-trade is talking to those people 'cause I feel as though I kinda get it. Like I, I understand that tho- that, that's part of the full compliment as horrible as it might sound to say like, we all have like unacknowledged and secret, um, impulses that, you know, we, we have sort of civilized, uh, uh, in, you know, and, and kept, and repressed into, into, you know, in... We've inhibited them into our souls so that we can function and, and not go t- be sent to prison or whatever, or be canceled. But, um, f- f- for me like I, I, I sort of, I, I do it to a fault to the point where I worked at the BBC in-house in BBC studios just 'cause I sort of liked the idea of the structure. Like I'm a company man going to the factory and, you know, building my TV programs but not owning them and... 'Cause I just thought, you know, and I like going to the can... I used to love working at TV Center 'cause it felt like going to the factory and then eating at the TV Center canteen. You know, it just felt, felt like comfortable. You know, my, my granddad worked at the London Water Board his whole life. He had one job that he started when he was 18 and, and finished when he was, whatever, 65. You know, to some extent those were the times but that temperament is slightly in me the whole time. When he, when he, when he left they gave him, um, some, a box of cutlery, you know, that was the... (laughs) You know, like, "You've worked here for, for 47 years. Here's, here's your sil- your silverware in a walnut case." It was on a, it was in pride of place, like not pride of place, it wasn't on a mantelpiece but you, you us- we used to look at it. That's what grandpa got when he'd worked at the London Metropolitan Water Board for 47 years. You know, you would sort of reverence it. Like and it was only used for special occasions. And, and there's a little bit of that in me. And so when I finally went outside the BBC and set up a company three or four years ago, I'm sure most of your listeners probably have their own, many of them, not most, but many of them will have their own companies or will be fully cognizant of what it takes to make it in the sort of the world of, of, of free market and entrepreneurship. But for me that was just absolutely not my lane. And it was my wife who pushed me to do it. And so that was a, a case of me needing to break out of whatever I was doing and say, "Do you know what? Whatever you think that is, risky, or mysterious, or, um, you know, a bit a spivey." You know, like just a little bit judgment. Like, "Oh, I don't wanna be one of the yuppie guys. Like, 'We just had an IPO. I'm, I've just got my first Maserati.'" Like that k- 'cause I, I, I'm antagon- you know, I'm completely... That, that whole mindset. I feel like I'm alienating maybe some of your listeners. That's not my mindset. Like I'm just like... I, I almost valorize the opposite of that, you know, to an, to probably, um, an extent that's sort of faintly unhealthy. Like, like I don't wanna be the guy, I don't want a flash car, I don't want a flash clothes, I don't want anything. I wanna be anti-flash, right? Like my watch, you can see this. My wife was saying to me last night, um, "You know, maybe time for a new watch." This is a Casio, whatever that one is. It's a F91W. These cost like 10 pounds, 15 pounds. You can get them at, uh, Argos.Do you... Have you ever seen that watch before?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I have. That's, that's a classic.
- LTLouis Theroux
I was listening to a program about Andrew Tate on the way here, a podcast. You know who Andrew Tate is?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
What's your... Anyway.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
So Andrew Tate feels like he's that guy reduced to its quintessence where he's like, y- if you... One of his catchphrases was, um, people say, "Why have you got a, you know, green Bugatti?" Do you know this meme? And what does he say to them?
- SBSteven Bartlett
He says, um... Well, he says-
- LTLouis Theroux
He says, "What color is..." I say to them, "What color is your Bugatti?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
Right? That's him in a nutshell. He's like unapologetically troll-like ostentatious displays of wealth and arrogance, right? So I'm the anti-Tate. You can put that on my, you put that on my gravestone, the anti-Tate. So I'm like, "I don't give a fuck about your Bugatti. I think it's embarrassing that you have one." But, you know, fine. You know, and that's kind of a joke. Like that's... I, I want... My point really is that that's something I need to keep an eye on, you know. 'Cause actually ostentatious... almost like ostentatious humility is its own poison. Like, like why are you so wedded to the idea of having a shit watch? By the way, it's not a shit watch. It's completely reliable and it's... I've never had it... The only thing that goes on it is the strap. So, so I've got one that's got a... You can replace the strap-... after about five years, the strap goes. I've got two of these. I'm not bragging.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
I've got one... (laughs) I've got my, I've got my spare one in case I can't find this one. Anyway, last night my wife said, "It might be time for a new watch." I've got to embrace... I'm trying to lean into being the guy that isn't showing off about what a lack, or what a not-show-off he is. Uh, y- you think I've lost the thread, I haven't.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
The point I'm getting to is that, um... So, I needed to start a company and not... 'Cause it's, uh, it's oddly infantilizing after a while. Like, there's nothing fl- there's nothing cool about making, like, h- hundreds of hours of TV and, and not owning any of it, right? That's just me being a little bit of a chump. And partly that's... You know, there's a quid pro quo, I suppose, like, well, you don't get stressed, you turn up, you're making things for a public broadcaster, you're getting a decent salary, for sure. But people would say, like, "Why... You know, everyone else..." So, "Who do you work for?" It's, like, "Well, I'm BBC, I'm on contract. I, I work from contract to contract three years at a time." "Like, really? W- you don't have your own company?" Like, "No." "Why not?" Like, you know, "'Cause everyone else does, like Jamie Oliver or Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, or, or..." You know, whoever you care to mention, any presenter-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Bear Grylls.
- 56:49 – 1:06:01
Feeling like an imposter
- SBSteven Bartlett
in your life, where you've kind of taken a leap into the unknown, which is actually quite surprising having, you know, described yourself as a creature of comfort, even-
- LTLouis Theroux
Habit.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have habit, sorry.
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, what do you-
- LTLouis Theroux
Well, I don't mean to... Habit, like, trying to, like, tell you off.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
I did say habit. I... Maybe of comfort as well, although , you know, but habit is really what I meant, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Creature of habit. 'Cause I... 'cause I was reading about when you made the transition from being a writer to a TV presenter-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and I, I, I remember writing some quotes about how, um, how... like, there was one about feeling like an imposter a little bit to some degree, and getting on that plane to go and interview these Christians once, once Michael Moore had, sort of, um, put you at front and center of a documentary-
- LTLouis Theroux
That's right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and thinking, "What the fuck am I doing here?"
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah. That was... I remember it vividly. It's extraordinary. As you go through life, so much disappears, but there are times when you realize you're at this mo- sort of momentous moment. I suppose often it's high-stress moments, um, which, which is really revealing, isn't it? Because actually risk avoidance, you know, that, that... Almost like... God, my mind's whizzing now, but that Benthamite idea, like, the greatest happiness... You know, the, the... In philosophy, there's a utilitarian ideal that's supposed to be the bed- the metric for how you judge whether an action is good or not, and it's like, the greatest... Will it cause the greatest happiness of the greatest number of people? But then if you unpack that, like, well, what is happiness? Like, what actually... How do you measure it and how do you measure... Is it happiness in the moment? Is it happiness as it's recollected over time? Is it, um, a happiness that, you know, um, you can... uh, that will spread to other people, or, you know, it will exist for 100 years? Uh, and, and so, actually, there's a, there's a sense of fear and discomfort that will subsequently lead to a sense of, of, of, of triumph or self-satisfaction. Uh, you know, is it happiness? Is it... I don't know. Like, that fear's such a, such a blunt instrument for attempting to mea- measure reality. And, um, and in general, fear, which you would equate with unhappiness, can very often be what ends up creating the conditions for real achievement. And I, I, I, I remember sitting on this plane having been given a job by Michael Moore as a presenter on, you know, TV Nation. It was a network TV show on NBC, one of the... well, there were then three networks in America. I was 23. I, I was, as I say, awkward, i- in every a- apparent way, disqualified for being a, a co- correspondent on a network TV show. Co- I, I was in... I was having... I was in the union. Like, you know... As... Probably still the case, but definitely then, um, these TV shows were unionized to an extent in America further than they would be in the UK. So, I would be... I was in the Writers Guild of America, uh, as a result of being hired. And so they were required to fly me business class. Like, I don't think I'd ever been in business class. And somehow that contributed to my imposter syndrome, my sense that I shouldn't really be here. I remember sitting there thinking like, "This is all kinds of wrong." Like, "I don't know what I'm doing here, I don't know why they think I'm qualified to do this, and nevertheless, this is what's happening." And, and I was... There was a segment that, uh, was about... You know, TV Nation was a kinda satirical, fact-based comedy show where you went out and slightly made fun of people with... to prove a political point or to, sort of, make some sort of social point. So, I was interviewing religious cults about when the end of the world was going to happen. So, it was sort of like slightly cheeky, um, irreverent take on religious fanaticism or religious weirdness. So, yeah, I was like, "I wanted to know, so when will the world end? Is it on a Tuesday? How can I get prepared?" And I would sort of wi- in a wide-eyed way, "Oh, no." Like, "Will, will there be..." You know, "And are there spaceships g- going to land? And what will the aliens look like?" But I was just incredibly conscious of, of thinking like, "Why have I been given this huge..." Um, it felt like a big slab of pressure and-... and sort of licensed to fail very publicly and very embarrassingly. And, and I also knew I wasn't, you know, but I'm also wasn't so disconnect- connected from reality that I didn't think like, "Well, it's a huge opportunity." Like ma- ma- my- and my girlfriend at the time was very supportive and is like, "You know, y- you should, you can do this, Louis. Like you're really good with people." And, and, um, and, and, you know, "Don't, don't, don't worry like you can, you've got this, you can handle it." And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were you trying to talk yourself out of it?
- LTLouis Theroux
I was, um, (clears throat) it wasn't like I ever thought I, um, I, I won't do it. Like I, there's no question of it like, "I'm gonna do it. Like I have to do it," but I, I sort of didn't want to do it. Does that make sense?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Has that been typical of your life where, you know, you've gotta do it but it feels kind of painful and anxious as you approach the challenge? Even like with-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah, I think-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... starting your own company?
- LTLouis Theroux
Oh, yeah, I think so. Like there's times when, uh, you know, I suppose that's where the work ethic part fits in or whatever, like that part of if, if you commit to doing something, like I'm very, uh, I, I hate to let people down. Like if I commit to doing something, um, or turning up on time or I still struggle with that part. Like especially as you're in the, when you're in the public eye or you're in demand and people write and ask for things, I still, you know, "Will you come to our school and give a talk?" Or I don't, I- I- I'm very agreeable in that sort of technical sense. I'm, I'm very inclined to agree to do things and that can get you in trouble because you find you're over... I, I find I over-agree and make unrealistic commitments like, "Oh, that'll be fine and then I'll do that and then I'll do that." And then you look at it and you're like, "There's just no way on earth I can do all of these things." So I try and ring-fence my commitment levels but that's not easy. So, but in a, in a positive way, um, that sense of like feeling like I need to show up having agreed to do it, having been offered at a, um, an opportunity, even though it might sound enormously stressful. Like I would never... I think this may be a world in which I never got into TV. I don't know quite what I did end up doing. The thing that it makes me reflect on is the extent to which we're conditioned and groomed into behaviors that can be healthy or unhealthy, or positive or not positive. And I think that's the part of the libertarian ethos that I have a huge... well, among others, that I have a huge issue with. It's like, "Oh, just let people be themselves." People need help to fulfill their potential, right? That idea that, "Oh, you know, you can pull yourself up by the bootstraps." Like I, with all the advantages I had of like a first-rate private education, supportive parents, e- even I like didn't see myself as someone who would have various kinds of success. I didn't feel that that was in me for whatever reason. But other... along the way people among... Michael Moore, um, people at the BBC who then commissioned me to do my own series off the back of TV Nation when I got commissioned to do Weird Weekends, my wife Nancy, other people along the way have sort of, um, seen things in me that I didn't see in myself. Even this interview series going out at the moment, I, I never... it sounds awful, I never aspired to have like a TV interview series. Like it was something that would be mentioned from time to time and I would say like, "That's not really me," you know. I like going out... Like my, my comfort, like my happy place really is, in terms of TV, like, oh, go and be in a prison for two weeks and film the inmates, or (clears throat) go to a mental hospital or go to a, um, a brothel, like I made a film about a brothel, and just hang out there for two or three weeks and just be a fl... That, that to me is, that sounds awful, but that's, that's like pure bliss like work-wise. But the idea of, "Oh, we'll have a formal sit down interview and you'll talk to someone famous who probably only has a couple of hours for you and then we'll piece it all together and do shoot." I, I never thought like that's really something I wanna do. But Patrick Holland who was then in charge of BBC Two had listened to my podcast and said like, "I really think this would work." Some... not this exactly, but there's a, there's a, there's a TV show that takes aspects of this that could exist that would, you know, involve you talking to people. And I, and I remember, uh, you would think like, "Oh, that would... that must have been exciting." Like someone saying like, "I want to do it." This TV format involves partly chat show, partly documentary. I just thought that... I didn't think like that's something I'll never do. I did think like... I just felt very blank about it and that's horrible. Like people are gonna l- l- listen to this and throw up in their cars. But I just thought, "That sounds sort of stressful. I'm not sure if I really wanna do that."
- SBSteven Bartlett
W- w- what-
- LTLouis Theroux
But I made myself. The point is (laughs) I made myself do it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Makes sense.
- LTLouis Theroux
... because I had a team around me who I knew expected me to do it. And at some level I had enough sense to recognize that it was an opportunity.
- SBSteven Bartlett
These people that have seen
- 1:06:01 – 1:10:51
Are you now aware of what people saw in you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
things in you that you maybe couldn't at the time have seen in yourself or seen roles for you that you maybe at the time couldn't have seen for yourself, Michael Moore, Nancy, and then people at the BBC that you mentioned, are you aware of what they're seeing in you (pauses) now in hindsight what they saw in you?
- LTLouis Theroux
Uh, yeah, I think so. And I think in... with, with a bit of time I've been able to appreciate, um, that. I know it s- it sounds sort of glib and maybe even false modest but t- to appreciate that I have something to offer. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is that?
- LTLouis Theroux
Well, um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It makes people feel uncomfortable when you ask them these questions.
- LTLouis Theroux
No, no, I'm fine with it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- LTLouis Theroux
Like 'cause I feel as though I, I can analyze it, um, with, with the benefit of 25 years of doing it. I think it's something to do with like s- a little bit of intelligence, a little bit of humor, a little bit of un... sort of unsought-... awkwardness. Like, I think that's part of it, like, just being a little bit awkward. A little bit of, um, sort of authenticity, or, or whatever that is, like just sort of feeling like, I think maybe the, that same thing of not really fully chasing it or fully sorta needing it, oddly enough, is almost the pre-, you know, it's like to go through the door you have to not want to go through the door too much. I don't know if that's even, that's definitely not a saying and it doesn't actually make any sense, but whatever sense you can make of that contradictory statement. If you want it too much, I think that there's, there's, then you need to step back and think about quite, it's almost like then you're not ready, um, Grasshopper. Is that the right, does Grasshopper, is that what these are saying?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- LTLouis Theroux
Karate Kid.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LTLouis Theroux
I think Gr- I think if I can talk, if I can call you a grasshopper, Steve. No, um, you know, it's like, it's that feeling of, uh, you know, some- at the end of the day, um, there's more important things in life and, um, I don't wanna overdo, I actually got lost in my metaphor a bit. But I think in the end it's like those different qualities of, of, of, of, it's, it's that complement of qualities and then just sh- luck, but I don't think luck really y- is a quality, but th- alongside, I, I'm now at the, the position where having done my job for long enough it's put me in a slight, I think there's loads of people who could be, uh, whoever I am, like occupy that cultural place that I'm in, but, f- you know, thr- and, and partly I've earned my place here and partly I've been really lucky. But I think, you know, when you said something earlier it also made me think of another quality which is to do with, which is an, a negative thing which is that, you know, that I did like, you, when you were s- told, you know, when I was told that, oh, you know, Patrick want, you know, he's quite keen to do some sort of talk format or some interview thing where you're on TV and I, and I just think like, well, I'm not really sure. I, I, I think one of my, 'cause it goes back to what you were asking earlier about, oh, what, what is the downside of these various qualities. Like, I do think, there's a term, anhedonic, have you ever heard that term?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No.
- LTLouis Theroux
It just means, I think it's a clinical term but it sort of me- it sort of means averse to pleasure or lacking in pleasure. Like, there's a part of me again that, um, I think my wife has helped me with is that, a, I kind of sense that I'm not always connected to pleasure. Does that sound weird? Like, I, I, you know, sometimes I, I sort of drift through life and, and I have to sort of stop and remind myself. I think because I t- I sort of, I, I tend to see downsides and I'm, I'm working on that and I, and I, I really do like, I, I, I sorta need to, it's really odd, like, I've won three BAFTAs, n- not bragging, uh, it, this just came up and I, and I mention it, it's a fact. And, um, and when you win a BAFTA, you've got a lot of awards up there. I- I'm not seeing a BAFTA.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
Maybe there's a just-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I presented a BAFTA to someone else.
- LTLouis Theroux
Some of them are awards. Some of them, one's a camera. I'm not sure if that camera is an award or you can do a cutaway of that later. You know, it's odd, like, I, my main thing on winning, each time I've won a BAFTA my first thought has been, "Oh, shit, now I have to give an acceptance speech." Right? "I'm gonna have to get up there." And, um, you know, in hind, like, the pleasure, you know, you get a little pleasure over the subsequent years when you can bring it up again and again, as I like to do. But actually, it's really odd, like, I, I, most of the time when I get good news sometimes I don't even, I can't notice the good news. Does that sound really weird?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, that makes sense.
- LTLouis Theroux
I don't know if that make, uh, you, thank you for saying that, I think you're being polite.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I am.
- LTLouis Theroux
I'm not someone who-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LTLouis Theroux
... I'm not someone who, um, is r- who, who automatically feels connected to the good things that happen to them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How does one remain happy
- 1:10:51 – 1:14:10
How do you remain happy?
- SBSteven Bartlett
if they have that s- kind of default, uh, "Oh my God, where am I gonna put this third BAFTA that I've won," or, "Now I have to do a speech"?
- LTLouis Theroux
Well, it sounds awful but you just sort of follow your routine. You know, and actually, I am a happy person and, um, I, um, I, you know, the, I, I, I take pleasure in the simple things in life. You know, I li- I, I like, um, doing stuff with the f- you know, stuff with the family or, you know, really, I really am a, Okay, so... being aware of it going well, and getting into an almost like a mindset in an interview of feeling like, "Yeah. This is all good." Like, "I feel connected. I feel..." Uh, 'cause it's a high stre- in a way... I- I'm sure you have a little bit of this, but if you have an interview with someone, you feel like you've been trying to book it for a while, uh, the moment comes, and you're like, "The next two hours are really important." You want it to go smoothly. You want it to feel like a revealing encounter. You- you wanna be probing and insightful and inattentive and immersed, but not distracted, but also thinking ahead. And- and all of that's going on, and then it starts, and then you feel like, "Oh, it's going okay." And then afterwards, you're like, "That was a good one." And then in the edit, you're putting it together, and you're piecing things, and like that, all of those, the simple pleasures of- of craft, you know? Like, i- it's really s- i- it, and it is simple. Like, it's- it's no great mystery, but that- that's- that's a big part of, um, of how I connect with, uh, well, my own happiness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do you connect with people? It's actually,
- 1:14:10 – 1:21:49
How do you connect with all these people?
- SBSteven Bartlett
uh, I wanted to ask you this for my own sort of learning. You've done this for multiple decades. You've sat with people from every corner of the world. You have all of these different experiences, and some of them are a little bit, you know, in a- the nicer sense, a little bit out there.
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm glad I landed with a- a PC word.
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A little bit out there.
- LTLouis Theroux
Wonder what the non-PC word is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) But you have, um... It was funny, when I en- asked you about the qualities you have, I think you absolutely nailed it, and all of those make you incredibly disarming. That almost like lack of intense seriousness-
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... makes you a really disarming individual. Um, how do you connect with people? How intentional is your approach to connecting with them-
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in your new interview series, but also just generally?
- LTLouis Theroux
Some of it is stuff that, you know, I didn't, I just sorta came by by accident, probably most of it, which is a thing, uh... You know, natural curiosity-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LTLouis Theroux
... which I think you have, a f- a feeling of, um, of just- just wanting to know w- what, why people do the things that they do, right, and- and- and sort of getting out of your own way a bit, you know, in the sense... 'Cause, uh, the question I get asked most often is like, "Well, how do you not get angry with some of these people, especially the ones who are sort of spewing hate or coming out with stuff that's really objectionable?" And I find it a slightly confusing question, because I think that's so... it's so far from what's in my head most of the time. I'm genuinely thinking like, "Why... If it- if it is someone like, say, a neo-Nazi or someone involved in religious intolerance, I'm just so curious about what takes someone to that place, wha- wha- what's in their mind that... to actually berate them, to give 'em a hard time, or even be particularly journalistically confrontational, that's not... that's not my default mode, you know?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's so interesting, 'cause I just think in g- life generally, those who like seek to un- even in our personal relationships and romantic relationships, those that seek to understand tend to build bridges, but if you seek to like, as you say, berate-
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I get told off on this podcast a lot on like Twitter and in the press like, because I don't berate people.
- LTLouis Theroux
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, when I had Matt Hancock here, I asked him the questions I really wanted to know, but I didn't, I didn't come to berate him.
- LTLouis Theroux
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He would've gone... (makes berating sound)
- LTLouis Theroux
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The wall would've gone up had I done that.
- LTLouis Theroux
There's other ways of... And some people use a confrontational approach, and that's fine, and then I think in general, um, you know, there's many ways of doing interviews, and I think probably... You know, I haven't interviewed many politicians, and it's probably related to that, the feeling that they- they- they have their... they tend to have their guard up. They tend to be, uh, follow s- uh, a strategy of- of attempting to be as- as risk averse, headline averse as- as possible, and it's like, those aren't the people... I- I'm interested in people who are genuinely attemp- who f- feel like they've got something figured out or- or- or are involved in a- in a world, or a lifestyle, or a just some situation that is- is either self-sabotaging or- or filled with angst. So, in the end, I see it as not- I'm not trying to get one over on people. I'm not trying to... I... Honestly, it's mo- most interviews I see as a- as a potential win-win. You know what I mean? Like, I- I start to think like, "Well, there's no- there's no reason why you shouldn't tell me the truth, and you're involved in something that you're relatively open about, and- and we'll... I'll- I'll just assume that that's probably the case." Now, obviously you're briefed. You've done as much research as you can, but, um, I- I think if you feel as though you're coming from a position of, um, sort of shared inquiry, then that's contagious. Um, I think also, I sort of t- tend to think... I think there's some part of me thinks maybe the other person's got it figured out and I haven't, right? A level of humility, so that when they say stuff, I'm genuinely thinking like, "Well, I guess, maybe," or ma- or they say something bonkers, and I'm like, "Well, that isn't right." But I enjoy c- bumping up against that, and I don't go in there thinking, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this person. Like, I'm gonna get one over on them." I sort of feel as though, you know, you come in, and you just sorta try and just see what's going on, you know? If- if people see like you're- you're attempting to wrestle intimacies from them, that's never gonna go well. You just create the space and the sense of- of understanding, and allow them to sorta walk through that.
Episode duration: 1:44:57
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