Louis Tomlinson: How sudden fame at 18 cuts you from home

1. 0:00 – 3:42

   Intro

   1. LTLouis Tomlinson0:00

      Not really ever spoke about it, um, in depth like this. Nothing prepares you in life for those kind of situations. But I felt like I'd failed at the time, that's the truth, and it's still something that I'm unpacking still, to be honest.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:15

      Louis, we spoke to your sister, Lottie, about this. Would you like to see it?

   3. LTLouis Tomlinson0:21

      Louis Tomlinson. (instrumental music) I didn't spend my life as a young lad thinking I was going to be a singer. Like I grew up in a working class town. Seven of us living in a three bed house. Like my mom used to work a lot at night. She had to play dad as well, so I would have to get my sisters ready for school. And people in Doncaster didn't get those opportunities. And then the X Factor came along. I auditioned three times. First time I failed, second time I failed. And I remember thinking, " (beep) , this is utterly crushing." Just sobbing to my mum. But she made me feel like I could do anything. So instead of running away, it was like, "I know I deserve it. I know I can." So how do I relearn confidence and go for a third time?

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:57

      When I think about what happened in the preceding five or six years, it is crazy.

   5. LTLouis Tomlinson1:02

      Yeah. And the toughest thing to deal with is just the lack of normality and part of growing up in a working class town. I have this like guilt for the success and money that I've earned. And then personal worth within the band, I really, really struggled with.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:14

      But you co-wrote 15 platinum singles.

   7. LTLouis Tomlinson1:16

      But I wanted to do more, but mostly for me, I didn't realize the value of family time. And the more time I spent in the band, the more time I spent away from home. Like two of my sisters who are identical twins, I've never told them this, but I wasn't confident enough to tell their pop. That shows just how little I was at home. (static)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:35

      And then it ends.

   9. LTLouis Tomlinson1:36

      And what was really strange was being 24 years old, realizing that the only way is down from here.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:41

       Louis, there's so many things that happened in your life. How does a young man grieve?

   11. LTLouis Tomlinson1:46

       It's not really something I speak loads about, but I'm, I'm happy to because I cannot have that define me.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:53

       The floor is yours. (instrumental music plays) I see messages all the time in the comments section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe. So if you could do me a favor and double check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show, in the trajectory it's on. So, please do double check if you subscribed, and, uh, thank you so much. Because in a strange way, you are, you're part of our history, and you're on this journey with us, and I appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you. (instrumental music plays) Louis, to understand you, what is the earliest context that I need?

   13. LTLouis Tomlinson2:40

       Something that played a massive role for me in my life was the fact that maybe for the first four or five years of my life, it was just me and my mum. My first proper memories are just kind of having like really kind of nice and warm and really like emotional conversations with my mum. I think something that I'm kind of proud of is that I'm, I'm, I find it easy to be emotional and I kind of like talking about my feelings, and I like getting into conversation with other people about that. And that was definitely something that she instilled in me from, from like a really young age. And something that still definitely really helps me today, especially, you know, navigating through the life like I have. Those kind of things, being able to talk about your emotions and your feelings, are like vitally important actually for the job that I do, mentally, you know.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett3:27

       So, your, your father wasn't around. He, your biological father left soon after you were born?

   15. LTLouis Tomlinson3:33

       Yeah, it's not really something I speak loads about, but I'm, I'm happy to. Um, yeah, he wasn't, he wasn't involved in my life at all. I've met him like three times

2. 3:42 – 4:29

   Your Mother's Role in Your Life

   1. LTLouis Tomlinson3:42

      ever.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett3:43

      So your, your mother played, I guess, several roles in your life?

   3. LTLouis Tomlinson3:46

      Yeah, my mum was always really good at that. I think she realized the fact that my dad wasn't gonna be around, that she had to play dad as well. And she had this kind of mischievous instinct in her, my mum, and definitely kind of inspired some of that. And, and, and part of that was her being her, but part of that was also trying to play that kind of dad role, you know, where you kind of lark about and encourage to do kind of silly things that aren't gonna hurt, you know. She was just, she was just like, I could get emotional talking about it, she's just the best woman I ever knew, definitely. And also just I feel so vitally like lucky to be able to have her as my mentor because she just, everything that I look to in like friends and partners, et cetera, they're the kind of things that, that she embodied really.

3. 4:29 – 5:23

   Louis' Siblings

   1. LTLouis Tomlinson4:29

   2. SBSteven Bartlett4:29

      And you had siblings?

   3. LTLouis Tomlinson4:30

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett4:30

      Lots of them.

   5. LTLouis Tomlinson4:31

      Yeah, lots of them. So when, when I grew up, kind of like the bulk of my childhood, there was seven of us living in a three bed house. I've got a little bit better at it, but one thing I really have struggled with is being on my own. And, and the more I've thought about that as I've got a bit older, it's because I just never had an opportunity to be when I was young. When, when you live in a house that, you know, it's three bedroom and there's seven people living in it, you're, you're, you're literally all living on top of each other. And I, I loved that. Like it was like one of the best things that ever happened to me being an older brother. Like I just, it's just, it's like one of the definitions of my purpose, I would say. I just like to look after people, man. So like being an older brother is like a role I feel like I was always supposed to do. And then I think even, you know, as we move through life and a couple of things got more challenging, that role has become more prevalent, definitely.

4. 5:23 – 11:31

   Do You Think Fame Changed You?

   1. LTLouis Tomlinson5:23

   2. SBSteven Bartlett5:23

      I was fortunate enough to speak to quite a few people that, um, have known you over the years.

   3. LTLouis Tomlinson5:28

      I heard, that was cool. That was cool.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett5:30

      Yeah, and I was, uh, I was just listening to some of the, the recordings of those conversations, like Nizam.

   5. LTLouis Tomlinson5:35

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett5:36

      He's your childhood best friend.

   7. LTLouis Tomlinson5:38

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett5:39

      Cal, who's your photographer and videographer.

   9. LTLouis Tomlinson5:41

      Yeah, love Cal.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett5:42

       Throughout the years. And Lottie, who's your younger sister, six years younger.

   11. LTLouis Tomlinson5:45

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett5:46

       And it's interesting that one of the things they all came back to is that you, you really haven't changed-

   13. LTLouis Tomlinson5:50

       I appreciate that.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett5:51

       ... in terms of the fundamentals.

   15. LTLouis Tomlinson5:52

       That gave me goosebumps. I love-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett5:52

       No, but that's what they said.

   17. LTLouis Tomlinson5:53

       ... that right now.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett5:53

       Your best friend from childhood said that's one of the most remarkable things, that you're still made outta the same stuff and you've never turned around and thought you were anything more than you were.... back then when he knew you.

   19. NANarrator6:03

       And that's one thing I love about him, you know, as a friend. I've never said this to his face, but, you know, he's, he's a real guy. Like, uh, you know, he's never turned around and was towards us and ever said, "Oh, I'm this big shot now," or that ego. You know, that's never played and he's never been embarrassed of us. You know, he's, he's a real guy.

   20. LTLouis Tomlinson6:17

       It's at least 50% conscious that, or at least it started out as that idea. Because I think when you enter a, a crazy situation and, and, and One Direction being like the pinnacle of that idea, there's people around you that all of a sudden feel ... that, that used to feel really, really similar and all of a sudden they feel really different. I'm not talking about day-to-day conversation, but I'm talking about stuff that we can relate to, problems that I might have had, that I might, you know, talk to them about. And I think that's quite an alienating feeling. Um, so instead of, uh, instead of kind of just submitting, I've always, always resisted that. It's been really important to me. And those kind of things, you know, hearing that and hearing other people say that about me, that, that does make me really proud 'cause there's definitely, you know, it's, it's definitely a lifestyle that can kind of sweep you away. But I think the other side of that and getting swept away, I don't really like the idea of what that might look like and I think you need people around you that are going to tell you if you're being a dick. Like, vitally important in this job, definitely. And those things I think, I think when you're surrounded, you know, like a lot of successful people are, when you're surrounded only by success, it, it, it, it breeds a funny kind of narrative. To be respected from people in Doncaster like that, that means a lot to me, definitely. So that's why ... another reason why, you know, I wouldn't drive through the streets of Doncaster in a fucking Ferrari or whatever. (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett7:38

       And you went to school in Doncaster at Hayfields?

   22. LTLouis Tomlinson7:41

       Yeah. Hayfields where I did most of my time and then I failed my A-levels and I went somewhere else for a year.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett7:45

       You failed your A-levels?

   24. LTLouis Tomlinson7:46

       I failed my A-levels, yes. That was the first time I'd ever, ever got a real bollocking off my mum. A real, real dressing down 'cause she was really, really fair but there was something that she was kind of strict on with schoolwork and I remember getting in the car and she said, "You've fucked your life up." And she never swore. She never swore and I remember I got goosebumps thinking about it now. I remember thinking maybe I need to do something with my life.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett8:13

       At, at 15 years old, 15, 16 years old, you join a drama group and I was watching actually just before you arrived. At 17 years old you got the lead role in Grease.

   26. NANarrator8:24

       (singing)

   27. SBSteven Bartlett8:30

       The foundations were set and you ultimately at 18 years old decide to, um, go and audition?

   28. LTLouis Tomlinson8:34

       Yeah, that was the third time I auditioned for the X Factor. So every year previous to that, um, so that would've made me 16 when I first auditioned. There's like three producer auditions and then you get to see Simon, you know, it's the, it's the main one. Um, and the first y- first year I didn't get through any of them. The second year I got through the first round. And then for a final time I said to myself, "Well, I'm gonna give this one more shot." 'Cause that, that was another thing. At that age it's, it's, it's one thing saying you're resilient, and I'd like ... I do think I am, but it's a lot easier to be resilient at that age as well, definitely.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett9:07

       It's really surprising that someone would go to the X Factor once, be rejected essentially, go again, not, not make it, and then go again without having their self-esteem or their confidence knocked to the point where they go, "I'm not gonna go through that again." Because every time you gotta come home and you've gotta tell your friends and family-

   30. LTLouis Tomlinson9:21

       Mm-hmm.
5. 11:31 – 13:18

   Boot Camp

   1. LTLouis Tomlinson11:31

   2. SBSteven Bartlett11:31

      So you do the audition. Were you singing Make m- Make You Feel My Love?

   3. LTLouis Tomlinson11:35

      That was boot camp, so that was the second part of the audition. Um, my first audition was a song called Hey There Delilah. Did nothing for me, like sonically. Like, obviously now I can say this because I've got a bit more experience but as a young lad you're not thinking about any of these things. It was just, "I like that song. I'll sing that song." It was bad. It was really, really bad and to the point where, like, uh, it still makes me deeply uncomfortable, like, listening to or watching that audition.The only thing I've done like this is the school production of, of Grease. And that was to about 250 people over two nights. And that felt like a fucking mountain of people. Cut to then, uh, your live TV audition at the MEN in Manchester, and there's 3,000 people in the audience. 3,000 people is a big gig for anyone to play, like full stop. Like if you do 3,000 tickets, you're doing really, really well. So like it was r- that's the definition of being thrown at the deep end. And I think that's part of what they want, but it's not, it's not gonna yield the best results from everyone. Some people it is, but I just remember feeling like a fucking deer in the headlights. Like really, really shaky, like really, really ... Just felt really, really uncomfortable. I was just, I just wanted the ground to swallow me up. I'd never been in this situation where ... I was quite a confident young lad so it wasn't very often I'd even been out of my comfort zone like that, and I just felt, felt like a deer in the headlights definitely.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett12:54

      Am I right in thinking that they probably had the idea to construct a band much sooner than-

   5. LTLouis Tomlinson12:59

      They must have done.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett12:59

      You know what I mean?

   7. LTLouis Tomlinson13:00

      They must have done. Kno- knowing Simon, and I, I, I will have had these conversations with him in the past but can't remember now, but knowing Simon, yeah, I think you know what he's like, right? He will have had that in his mind for at least for the year before.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett13:13

      He loves a boy band as well. He's got a track record.

   9. LTLouis Tomlinson13:15

      Yeah. Yeah. They make him a lot of money.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett13:16

       Mm-hmm.

6. 13:18 – 17:46

   Reflecting on One Direction

   1. SBSteven Bartlett13:18

      And so y- you come third on the X Factor as a, as a band when you're put together, and then you signed at 19 years old to Simon Cowell's Syco Music. And it's crazy because when I think about you signing at 19 years old, and I think about what happened in the preceding five or six years, I mean, it is crazy.

   2. LTLouis Tomlinson13:37

      It's a mye- It's only now outside of being in One Direction that I actually have a little bit of a concept of what happened and even, you know, the, the craziness of it, because nobody has any context to it before it happens. So we, we definitely, like we felt like things were going really, really well. But we also ... There will have been part of us, especially in that first year, of just assuming this is what, you know, success looks like. You know, a successful artist does these things. And the first moment that I remember distinctly actually that, that I realized that maybe this was bigger than like let's say like the average thing at the time, we got booked on a support gig with a, uh, like a Disney band called Big Time Rush. And before that tour show, our manager, but our like senior manager, the kind of guy you only see, you know, like six gigs a year, and that just happens to be Vegas and LA and all the best places in the world, you know?

   3. SBSteven Bartlett14:32

      Yes.

   4. LTLouis Tomlinson14:32

      And he sat us down, it was like this dressing down, and it was like, "Look, this is what you need to expect from a gig like this. Expect people to only know the, the singles, and even if they know the singles, you know, like that's, that's a real win. They're not gonna know this al- the words to the album tracks. There ... It's gonna be a very, very different show to what you expected." So we're all ready to go out fighting, 'cause we'd not really had that at that point. We'd had al- most things that we'd done, we felt really confident doing. So like we, we, we were kind of going on the back foot. And then I can remember w- when we walked out on stage, and I think we opened with something that wasn't a single, and people were just locked in, like massively locked in, and it was really, really fucking loud in there, and I think that was a moment where I remember again I had this kind of side to me when I was younger, I was so excited to tell Richard, who was our manager at the time, I was so excited to tell him post-gig about how it actually went, "Did you see it then? 'Cause that was obviously not how it played out." And I remember feeling pretty smug about that, but I think one, it was once I kind of got to bed that evening, I was kind of thinking, I don't ... I wasn't an overly deep thinker at that point, but I was still thinking occasionally on a deep level. And I'm looking at this music manager and I'm thinking like, "This guy is like uber experienced." Like he's been in this situation countless times. So if he was to predict it wrong, like maybe he did, I'm like, "Well, maybe we r- maybe something is happening."

   5. SBSteven Bartlett15:51

      How do you take care of yourself amongst that? Because, you know, one of the things I've learned from doing this podcast is I've learned so much about the brain.

   6. LTLouis Tomlinson15:56

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett15:57

      I've learned so much about-

   8. LTLouis Tomlinson15:58

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett15:58

      ... dopamine and, and sleep and circadian rhythms and all these, all these things. And so I, when I fit that into the context of what your life was like at an age where these neuroscientists tell me that the male brain is still growing, it's still forming itself, you're putting this tremendous external pressure on it. You're like shocking it every night. I remember when I interviewed Liam, um, your former bandmate, him telling me that he would like wa- He remembers walking out on stage in, I think it was Dubai, and there's like 100,000 people there, and then thrown in ... You probably remember the gig, like thrown into the, the taxi, taken back to the hotel room, and locked in there.

   10. LTLouis Tomlinson16:31

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett16:32

       And he was like, I remember him saying to me, it was stage, car, hotel, locked. Stage, car, hotel, locked.

   12. LTLouis Tomlinson16:37

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett16:38

       Fuck.

   14. LTLouis Tomlinson16:39

       I would say that h- the way that, that we both handled it, me and Liam, was quite different. I think I, I ... That's often why I, I kind of, I had a good relationship with Zayn from early on because neither of us are kind of rule-abiding. And not in a way that's like utterly disruptive, it's just we have our own ideas, you know? And that at least alleviated a little bit of the pressure knowing that deep down if I wanted to just go and do something, I would, I would genuinely just go and do it. Whereas I think Liam and the other boys actually to a degree, there was, there was an element of a little bit of fear, I think, you know? And, and also Liam had, you know, he'd worked so hard from the age of 14 to get there. Liam's journey was a lot different to mine. My ... I just felt like a happy-go-lucky guy who won the lottery, you know?

   15. SBSteven Bartlett17:20

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LTLouis Tomlinson17:21

       Whereas Liam was very, very precise and deliberate, and he'd got there for all his hard work. So I think we also came from a slightly different point of view. Another benefit that I, I had during that time, and I still have, is I'm not a dweller. Like I, I'm, I'm an over-thinker for sure, but I wouldn't say like I'm a dweller. So I wouldn't use this phrase with me very often, but like there would, there's definitely an element of ignorance is bliss during that

7. 17:46 – 26:31

   Having the Confidence to Push Back Against the Record Label

   1. LTLouis Tomlinson17:46

      whole time.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett17:47

      I find it so fascinating that you talk about this like, this idea of you being, having the, the minerals or the personality where you would push back against the system a little bit.

   3. LTLouis Tomlinson17:56

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett17:56

      Because when I spoke to your former cameraman and videographer-

   5. LTLouis Tomlinson17:59

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett18:00

      ... he said that you, you were the one in the group that-... stood up against the, the, the label.

   7. LTLouis Tomlinson18:05

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett18:06

      So you'd be the one to turn around to the record label and say, "We need a day off."

   9. LTLouis Tomlinson18:10

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett18:10

       And it's interesting again 'cause I, I was... One of the things I learned from doing this podcast is this idea of, like, learned helplessness and control and autonomy. Basically, TLDR is... It says that people who feel like they have control have much better physiological health outcomes. They have less stress. They're more insulated. Better psychological states, less anxiety, less depression because they feel like they're in control of the situation, so-

   11. LTLouis Tomlinson18:31

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett18:32

       There's this crazy study that I was reading about when I was writing my last book about these, these rats where they, they learn that they can't do anything about the situation, and they basically give up, and they b- become submissive, and they stop trying. And that, that... And I think about this-

   13. LTLouis Tomlinson18:43

       Ah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett18:43

       ... in the context of humans as well, and you're, you're... from what your, your videographer told me, Cam, you were clearly not that. You were clearly someone that would push against Simon Cowell's record label as a young man.

   15. LTLouis Tomlinson18:55

       Yeah, and that's something... I've had a few conversations with my friends, similar things, um, about this, and I'm not certain whether that was, like, inspired by... 'Cause it's, it's brave, right, to, to stare someone who at the time, at least in pop, was one of the most successful people in the music industry and say, "No, you've got it wrong. Here's me, an 18-year-old with no experience, telling you you've got it wrong." I, I think what gave me confidence in those ideas is even if it wasn't a collective voice, even if it was just my voice delivering the message, it was always with collective intention. It would always be for the good of all of us. Making those decisions now on my own are no... They're not quite as easy.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett19:33

       Mm-hmm.

   17. LTLouis Tomlinson19:33

       There's, there's a lot of different kind of things at play, but where... And again, it kinda comes from that big brother kind of role again. I was the oldest in the band. It was kind of my role in the band, I think, to, to, to kinda s- to do that, and I realized that by far, I was the most opinionated in the band definitely. So I think I wanted to use that for good and not just chatting shit about someone on Twitter or something. Another important distinction about One Direction is... This is not, like, disrespectful to Ed. Like, I appreciate I was in a boy band. I know that, right? But, like, if there would be, like, one genre of music that I would think might be the most naff, it's, it's boy band, if you could call that a genre. So going into... At this point, going into One Direction when I was 18, you know, growing up in the north of England, it's like, it's like real... It's kind of, like, snobby, musically, you know? There's like, there's, like, real music, and then there's boy bands, you know. So having that kind of feeling going into it, it was... That, that was why it was easy to kind of push against some of these old school ideas 'cause they were the ideas that I didn't... The reasons I didn't like these bands is 'cause they all looked the same and 'cause they all felt very kind of PR-pressed, you know. It was always a really interesting project for me to try and to, to look at One Direction and think, "Well, how, how could we make this a little cooler?" I remember the, the, the real turning point in One Direction was when we put up the pre-order for our first single, What Makes You Beautiful. I can't remember the number of how much we sold that week, but we broke some record, right, at the pre-order, and we got told this, and we'd not released any music at this point. And I remember thinking, "That's fascinating because they don't know what it's going to sound like yet-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett21:14

       (laughs)

   19. LTLouis Tomlinson21:14

       ... but they're invested." That felt like power early on, and it also felt like that we could rewrite the rule book because people were invested in us as much if not more than the music. I think that's fair to say.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett21:28

       Was there a part in the, the evolution, in the journey of One Direction where you had that moment where you go, "There's elements of my life that I love that I no longer have access to because of this success"?

   21. LTLouis Tomlinson21:41

       I would say that it's more gradual than that really. You know, you, you start to... You start to lose some of your own independence to a degree, and then I think... Also, the age I was, right? So like I was 18 when I first joined the band, and I always say this. That year of my life before I auditioned for The X Factor, at least up to those 18 years, was the best year of my life, y- you know. You've got independence at that point. I was thriving. You could go out. Like, it was just... It was, it was so fascinating socially. There's always something to do. So to leave that behind was quite gutting actually, and that took me a second to get used to at first. Now, I always felt incredibly grateful and really excited every time I was doing something with One Direction. But any kind of time for reflection, I was, I was really, really missing home. Like, me and Zayn would... When we were younger, we had countless conversations of like, you know, "Should we just pack it in? Should we just call it a day?"

   22. SBSteven Bartlett22:44

       Why?

   23. LTLouis Tomlinson22:45

       Because you, you, you feel alienated. You've got... You, you, you, you are living this lifestyle that... And there's a million different reasons, right? But, like, like, the fame thing's really difficult, and mostly for me, it was about being alienated. A- and I can't... Uh, it, like... Any of my life experience was now not so relevant to some of my friends, you know. And I think that also I have this... I think this is part of growing up in a working class, w- working class town, but I have this, like, guilt for the success and money that, that, that I've earned as well, and I think that also is kind of part of the same thing. I think, I think for... It's kind of, like, two different things. The fame thing, I'll never, I'll never be okay with. Like, if I, like... Of, of course, every artist says this, but if I could just do music, you know-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett23:36

       Mm-hmm.

   25. LTLouis Tomlinson23:36

       ... that would be amazing. That would be amazing. I suppose I could on a, on a lower level, but I wouldn't get the same rush that I do. I think it's almost... Yeah, it's, it's almost everything else that, that comes with that.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett23:47

       It's interesting when someone says they, they felt isolated, which is something I've heard a lot from people who've had great public success where they've got a big fan base, because we think of, like, isolation as not being around people, but I guess isolation in the context you described it is more about connecting t- to people, relatability.

   27. LTLouis Tomlinson24:03

       Yeah, but it's also like, like the metaphor would be, like, what's that really famous crossing in Japan? If you took a drone shot and you pulled right out from that and you would just become a little dot amongst the noise. Sometimes that's kind of how it feels because also...It's, it's not the r- it's not the real world. You know? The, the, the, even in the way that people perceive you is not the real world. The first moment that One Direction got ... Uh, the first big pay packet was, uh, a merchandise deal that we got, and we always did really good merch.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett24:36

       How old were you?

   29. LTLouis Tomlinson24:38

       19. That was the first, kind of, moment where I, I, I felt really, really excited. And so I rang my mom straight away and, you know, told her about it like I always would, and she was really excited for me. And obviously, you know, there's ... She's just proud, that's it. And then I remembered the feeling of, "But who else do I tell now?" 'Cause like, do I call up Nizam and tell him? Well, he'll, he'll, he'll be into that and he'll be really proud of me, but bear in mind, he's just seen me on The X Factor. And this is another thing I realized about people is, they think if you're successful, then everything is just, you know, successful and that's how it goes. So I think, you know, if I call, if I d- I didn't call Nizam, but if I had called him, he probably would've been really nice, but in his head, well, he'd shrug his shoulders like, "Well, obviously, you know, things are going really well for you." So I think there's definitely a, a lack of, like, understanding there, rightly so. There's also a, a guilt, you know, especially at that age. People, like, life's really, really expensive at that age. People are, like, up to their eyes in student loans. It was only about two years ago that I put all the plaques up on my wall at home and my awards, like the Brit Awards and stuff that I got in the past from the band. They still annoy me, even now, in my lounge. Because, like, if I'm in a, I'm in a conversation with someone, I don't even really want, like, I don't ... I wanna just be me. I don't wanna be that guy that won those awards. Like, we can be and we can conversate like that, but truthfully, like, if someone, if Nizam ca- came over to my house for, like, a chat and a coffee, I would hate that the conversation might end up then gravitating to me or my success. It's much more about just what those, uh, relationships and conversations look like in the real world. That's what I'm craving, is that real normality. All I want is to just be on an even playing field with everyone, in any kind of conversation. I think that was the toughest thing to deal with, is just the, the lack of normality in every sense of the word.

8. 26:31 – 28:14

   Relationship With Alcohol

   1. LTLouis Tomlinson26:31

   2. SBSteven Bartlett26:31

      How does things like alcohol play into this? Because you were, you're living a crazy, crazy life where your dopamine and your, your brain is being tested in all different ways. I remember Liam saying to me, this is really when he started to have a problem with alcohol-

   3. LTLouis Tomlinson26:42

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett26:42

      ... in the early years of the band, and he, uh, I'll never forget it, him, him talking to me about the minibar in the room.

   5. LTLouis Tomlinson26:47

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett26:47

      Like, one of the things I didn't realize is, okay, you've just been out on stage in front of 100,000 people, then you're back in a hotel room with a minibar.

   7. LTLouis Tomlinson26:53

      Mm-hmm. I feel the pull from alcohol, and I definitely drank quite a bit when I was, when I was in the band. But I think an important distinction post-show would be, I'd, I'd smoke my weed. I'd go back to my tour bus and I'd go and smoke me weed, and Zayn would, would smoke with me too. I hope he doesn't mind me saying that, I'm sure he won't. And that was great, and actually, like, you know, people do things for different reasons, and that was my vice, that was my choice. Now, the reason why that kind of suited my brain at that time was, I've just had all this noise in my head. I've just had this crazy experience on stage, and that's the noise that you kind of need to quiet down sometimes. So what we would do is we'd get back on the tour bus, we'd play Call of Duty Zombies, we'd smoke our weed, and like, that's all we'd think about and that's all we'd do. And then we'd get into the cliché stoner chats, deep conversation, probably UFOs, you know, all that kind of shit. And as, as, as daft as that might look and feel, it, it, again, it's our normality. It's creating the normality on tour. It's a version of what our friends were doing back home as well. But also, it just, it, it, it was such a lovely way to kind of debrief from those moments. Away from the manic-ness. You've just got this kind of really subdued, nice environment. The juxtaposition actually felt quite nice.

9. 28:14 – 29:44

   What Advice Would You Give Your Younger Self?

   1. LTLouis Tomlinson28:14

   2. SBSteven Bartlett28:15

      If you could go back to the day that you signed the contract with Syco, what is the advice that 33-year-old Louis would give 18, 19-year-old Louis?

   3. LTLouis Tomlinson28:24

      Such a, that is a really, really big question. I, I, I think I would just, uh, I think I would say to be, be, be confident in the earlier years, because the older I get, the more I realize most people in their earlier years of doing said thing are, to a degree, faking it. And I think for a long time, I was just thinking, "Well, you know, I didn't spend my life as a young lad thinking I was gonna be a singer, so I'm playing catch-up," and all of those things. And this, um, and also this is another thing I'm, I'm more than comfortable enough to say. I'm not the best singer in the world. I'm okay with that, right? But like, there was definitely a time where those things were challenging as a young lad. And I think I would just cut myself a bit of slack as a young lad, because it's been a lot of my defiance and decision-making that's got me to where I've got. And that should give you confidence. So I think, I think as a young lad, you, uh, I, I did really just felt like a deer in the headlights and I c- didn't really have any kind of context of what was going on. And I think when I'm talking about these things, I'm not talking about a, "No, we're not gonna do this Disney performance," 'cause I don't think it looks good on the wo- for One Direction. I'm talking about more, like, introspective, uh, personal worth within the band, all those kind of things. I really, really struggled with that as a young lad, big time. So I would, I would say I would give myself a bit

10. 29:44 – 33:25

    Feeling Like the Weak Link in the Band

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson29:44

       more credit there.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett29:44

       You really struggled with that?

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson29:45

       Mm-hmm. I found it, um, I found it really tough. So like, like as I said before, like, I was the kid who'd won the lottery. Like, I, I, I sang my first audition, um, for The X Factor. Didn't feel like I did a good job, was really surprised that I got the three yeses. Now, that was maybe four months before the first auditions air. So I've told everyone at this point, obviously. I'm in a band, I'm on The X Factor. And I have told anyone that will listen, like everyone. And actually, me and, neither me nor Niall got any TV time on our, on our audition. So the irony is, we get put in this band, but people have no idea who we are.Like there's, there's no context for the viewers to actually see this and, and actually really care. I felt like I was playing catcher from that moment in. Like I remember this like really like real naff thing, typical X Factor thing. We went filming for the judges' houses, which is the stage you have the auditions, then bootcamp, judges' houses, live shows. And we went filming for judges' houses and I was already questioning, I wasn't really singing at all. We had not had like any individual thing to sing. It was all like harmony stuff. And I got stung by a sea urchin, right? Random story. My foot blew up like an elephant and we had to film all this ... You know what X Factor's like, right?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett31:02

       Yeah.

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson31:02

       We had to film all this jeopardy. This like how will, how will the boys audition without Louis? It was awful. It was awful because there was no credibility to that statement. The boys could have auditioned straight (fingers snap) away. At that point, I was doing a lower harmony and I do- I, I would be shocked if anyone could even hear me in the mix at that point. So that was really challenging where, you know, I've already started to feel those things and then you get something like that that's quite literal and they're, and they're trying to sell this jeopardy. And I remember thinking, oh, like I, it just, it really, I wanted to do more. I just didn't know how to do that. Again, there's no context. I thought I was a good singer before I went on the X Factor. Then I get through the audition they put me through, I'm like, "Okay, well I must be all right." Then they don't show the TV audition. You're like, "Oh, maybe that's like a personality thing," or, "I don't know, maybe it is my voice." And there's a lot of, there's, there's, there's a lot of, especially as a young lad in this situation, there's a lot of unanswered questions.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett32:00

       Did you ever ask those questions?

    7. LTLouis Tomlinson32:01

       Did I ever ask him why I was in that band? No, I would love to though. I would've loved to, but do you know why I wouldn't, would never with him? Simon would probably, he would, he would ... Simon was always very brilliant at making me feel, uh, like worthy in the band. But, but as you said before, like I was often a, a voice between the band and the label. He was the label. Well, he put me on side and that's a smart move, isn't it? One thing he would always do, Stephen, is he would always say my name. Now, when you are a 19-year-old lad and Simon Cowell says, "Do you know what the thing is about that idea, Louis?" You are empowered. Now what, we like people using our names. Now imagine that's Simon Cowell and you're 19 years old. There is a spell that comes with that, and there's a power that comes with that. And I think, I think for a long time I kind of, I kind of fell for all those kind of ideas. Now I think Simon, again, is an interesting person. He is a brilliant businessman. Now, I learned a lot from him. I, the way, I, I, I still deeply respect him and I was, I was, I was in awe of him as a young lad. I just, I was, I loved to be around him. I loved to listen to him make decisions and, and all of that. And I thought he was, he was definitely brilliant at that time. He just, he built me up on a pedestal to the point where I thought that it would actually have a real world meaning, not just a thanks darling kind of vibe.

11. 33:25 – 34:36

    Solo Record Label After the Band Split Up

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson33:25

    2. SBSteven Bartlett33:25

       When did you realize that it didn't?

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson33:27

       When I joined Syco on my own.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett33:29

       So this is after the band, you signed a

    5. NANarrator33:31

       Yeah.

    6. LTLouis Tomlinson33:31

       Sorry. So the band, the band split up and, uh ... Now, I didn't have my pick of record labels. It was never like that. But even if I had, I could have had 10 offers on the table, let's just assume they're all the same money, I would've, I would've picked Simon always. Because like, again, a little bit like the north of England, loyalty is like a, a really important currency. It really is in these kind of, you know, working class places, it's really, really vital. And I think like for me it was, that always meant a lot to me. So I thought, well, if I'm ... I'd heard that some of the other boys were thinking about going to other labels, which was, they were right to. And I'd found out I was the only one that was gonna stay with them and that just motivated me more. So all the other boys went and joined different record labels, some of them not even within labels that were in Sony, which Syco was part of. And I remember thinking, "Oh wow, this is like, it's amazing for me actually that all the boys have done that 'cause like, look how good this makes me look to Simon. And I look really loyal." And, and, and, and like some of it was like deliberate, but mostly that's just how I am as a person. Like I, I would rather just keep the happy family kind of vibe, that, that-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett34:34

       Mm-hmm.

    8. LTLouis Tomlinson34:34

       ... that suits me.

12. 34:36 – 37:48

    The Impact of Your Success on Your Family

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson34:36

    2. SBSteven Bartlett34:37

       One of the, um, one of the things people don't talk about is the impact that your success has on everyone else back in, in Doncaster, including, including your mum. I spoke to your sis- sister, Lottie, or my team did, and I was listening to the recordings and she said that it was especially hard for your mum because you leave home suddenly at 18 years old. And from everything you've described, you're more than just a kid-

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson34:55

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett34:55

       ... to her. You were, in some respects, uh, a partner in raising the, the family.

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson35:00

       And best mates as well, man. Yeah, definitely.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett35:02

       Did she ever speak to you about the impact it had on her or any of that?

    7. LTLouis Tomlinson35:05

       That's something that I can remember really clearly. And she used to do the, uh, university analogy and she used to say, "I knew you were gonna leave home at some point, but I had at least a time scale to that. I could like work towards in my head, okay, you know, in three months time he's gonna leave for uni and that's that." One Direction never happened like that, you know, we, it all ran away with itself. So I think we felt like we all blinked and before we knew it, I was no longer living at home. So my mum had no time to even grieve the idea of like ... And just for context, I mentioned this in, I made a, like a film, a documentary, and it kind of sums up me and my mom's relationship perfectly. The first person I told when I lost my virginity was my mum.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett35:47

       (laughs)

    9. LTLouis Tomlinson35:48

       Like I was, uh, as if, as if I was telling, like one of my lad mates, I was just... And I wasn't telling her for any other reason other than show off and be like, "Guess what happened to me?"

    10. SBSteven Bartlett35:55

        (laughs)

    11. LTLouis Tomlinson35:56

        And, and that, that, we, we definitely had that kind of energy together, you know? We, we, we, we, I always, always saw her more as a best friend than anything else. And especially 'cause I was her first, she had me when she was 19. We spent the first few years together without a, a male role model. So it was a little deeper than your average, you know, son and, and, and mother situation. So I think it really hit me mum like a ton of bricks. If I had my time again, I would've been more present and aware of those kind of ideas.And I actually, here's a story actually, I, I, I don't, I've never told Daisy and Phoebe this. Daisy and Phoebe are two of my sisters who are identical twins, and they're about four or five years younger than Lottie, so they're about 21. Now, I could always tell them apart perfectly, but they look utterly identical, these two, especially when they were really young. And I can remember the more time I spent at the band, the more time I spent away from home. I wasn't confident enough to use their name to them. You know, it would be always like, "Oh, babe," or like, you know, something that way I wouldn't have to mention the name 'cause I wasn't certain who was who. These are two sisters that I spent my life with and grew up with, but I think shows just how little I, I was at home. And if, and my mum, my mum would come out to see me, which was great, but other, you know, the kids were at school and stuff like that. So there was a long time for those, out of those five years we were in the band, a long time spent not spending enough time with family. And that, I would say that is, that was 85% the job and the situation in One Direction and stuff, and then 15% me too. Like, I could definitely have done more like that. Um, but you know, it, that, when you, when you're living a life like we did in One Direction, free time is so competitive. And when you're young, you're not smart enough to realize the value of

13. 37:48 – 41:43

    Zayn's Decision to Leave the Band

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson37:48

       this family time.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett37:49

       And you were on an absolute rocket ship-

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson37:51

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett37:51

       ... up until you'd sort of, well, you must have been, what, sort of 23, 24 years old when the band origin- announces that it's breaking apart. Obviously in March that year, Zayn says he wants to leave to have a normal 22-year-old's life, which shocked the world.

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson38:03

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett38:04

       Um, how do you reflect on Zayn's decision now? 'Cause you, were you, were you pissed off at the time that he was breaking things up or...

    7. LTLouis Tomlinson38:10

       I was fuming.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett38:11

       Really?

    9. LTLouis Tomlinson38:11

       I was, again, it, it's not something we've discussed enough yet, but, um, me and Zayn I mean, but again, it comes back to, like, loyalty for me and I just... Selfishly, I'd wished he'd had a conversation with me first 'cause me and Zayn, I'd like to think that he would say this too. I think he would. There was times where, like, we were like... Let's put it like this. This is a good way of, of describing it. Uh, on the last tour that Zayn did, this, we always said we would never be this band, the type of band that would have all their own individual dressing rooms. Well, sometimes when you've got a lot of guests and stuff, it can be challenging, but we always said we wouldn't be that band. And on the last tour Zayn did, Harry had his own dressing room, Liam did, Niall did, and me and Zayn shared. So I think that kind of, like, testament of, of the relationship. So I felt a little bit hard done by. I felt like, like, not, like, throw these boys under the bus, but let me know. But I l- just a little bit, I, I, I, I thought that we had a relationship where he could have had that conversation with me. In reflection, and he hasn't told me this, we'll see when I chat to him about it, but I think if he told me, I would have tried to s- I would have tried to tell him to stay, and I think that's probably one of the reasons why he didn't 'cause he know, he knew I was always very opinionated.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett39:26

        So how did you find out?

    11. LTLouis Tomlinson39:27

        That evening, um, the night before we found out, everything was normal. We're in the hotel room. We were somewhere, I don't know where, somewhere in the world, maybe where weed isn't legal, but we were having a joint. And everything was normal, you know, and, and then I think he maybe left at, like, 11:00. He was cool, wasn't, like, in a bad mood or anything like that, you know, "Good night, lad." And then next morning I woke up, we had a shoot with, like, Coca-Cola for some sponsor thing, and we found out that he wasn't coming. Now, like, I had this in me too, but, like, Zayn was quite prolific for it. Like, this wasn't out of the ordinary. Like, if Zayn... I always rated him for it. If he didn't want to do something, like, he, he literally wouldn't do it. Like, you name the thing, it doesn't matter. He just, he just, if he doesn't, he doesn't, if it's not right for him, then he won't do it. So I think, well that, and, and that's probably why he left the band, you know? And that's what I admire about him because if I was in his same situation, I woulda probably put six plasters on it just to hope that we can stay playing happy families, you know? I want to know if he regrets it. Not in the way that... Like, he, his own personal success has been incredibly successful and he's done really, really well like that, but he must miss it. Like, he must do because I know Zayn really well and Zayn has a bit of the kind of energy I do in such a way that sometimes this whole job can just be a little bit fussy. It's just a bit fussy in general, you know? There's just, there's just a lot going on like that. Now when you're in a band, you can share that wealth. It's like, it's, you know, say you've, let's say you're sat in an interview you're not enjoying. You just kind of shut up a little bit and let someone else pick up the pieces and they'll do that role. We could share the things that we didn't like to do as much. So there must definitely be times that, that he, he misses the comfort of that, for sure. But it's n- it's kind of like the elephant in the room to be honest. It's not... I've, I've met up with him a couple of times recently, but it's not often something we'll discuss, but there'll be a time for that for sure. I d- I would like to have those conversations with him. But it crushed me, man. It cr- absolutely crushed me. I was, I was devastated because it felt like, "Oh, is this the beginning of the end of the band?" But then also I'm like, I, like, this is, like, me best mate in the band at the time, so it was... I'd lost a friend and someone in the

14. 41:43 – 42:30

    Grieving the End of One Direction

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson41:43

       band.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett41:43

       It's funny, y- you know, I've heard you say that you didn't, you weren't prepared for the success of One Direction, but you also weren't prepared for the end of One Direction.

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson41:49

       Oh, no.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett41:50

       And you describe it as hitting you like a ton of bricks.

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson41:52

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was awful. It wasn't until after the event that I realized, that I actually computed all these feelings, but it was like I was straight grieving for it, and that was grieving the band. I'm someone who unfortunately has a little bit of experience in grief and albeit it felt different, but it was a version of the same thing. It was something that I really wanted that I couldn't have anymore. I think like anything like that, you know, like, if you're like a, I'm a glass half full kind of guy, so, like, I, I felt the wheels start to turn in motion like that, but you're looking the other way. You're like, "No, it's fine. He's not gonna play it like that. It's never gonna come to that." Whatever, and then we had a meeting one day and, and, and, and it did.

15. 42:30 – 45:12

    The Meeting That Ended the Band

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson42:30

    2. SBSteven Bartlett42:30

       What happens in that meeting? What, what, what's said? Is it-... Simon saying something? Is it the- the boys? Is it representatives?

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson42:37

       It was us boys, which was great (sighs) . Um, a- always how it should be like that, obviously. But I think... (laughs) It almost might as well have been representatives. What's really fascinating is those real serious moments, we wouldn't have a lot of them in One Direction. We were just kinda going with the flow and really happy, you know, for each other and stuff like that. But I think those kinda moments where you have to be selfish, it was an atmosphere that never really felt in the band. 'Cause normally, like I said, we're arms in arm- arm in arms. It's all this camaraderie. And then all of a sudden you get someone thinking more independently and more for themself, which by the way, they have every right to do, of course. But it just felt, though, the room felt cold that day. I can remember that in particular. There was, it was... I'm trying to find the right metaphor for it, but it was, it was something where... These are all the same faces that I'd seen every single day, but I'd never quite felt an energy like that in the room. There was like a, there was, there was this emptiness. And I think probably because we knew, we all knew collectively where it was going, you know, and that's probably some friction between those ideas. The thing that really bothered me was, and this again is naive, was so naive at the time, but I was adamant on having some kind of indication of... 'Cause it was, it was, it was originally said as... What's that fucking word we've used a million times? Hiatus. (laughs)

    4. SBSteven Bartlett43:58

       Yeah. (laughs)

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson44:00

       Which by the way, is just-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett44:00

       (laughs)

    7. LTLouis Tomlinson44:01

       ... such a cringey word. So it was originally pitched as that, so I was thinking... I remember saying like, "Well, if I'm gonna try and do some stuff on my own," and at this point I didn't even know what I was gonna do, I was like, "It'd be good to know how long this break's gonna be for." So let- let's speculate. A year? Two years? Five years? 10 years? 15 years? I never really got an answer to that question, which I understand now. I, because truthfully, I don't think the people or person involved was brave enough to answer that question, deep down. I think they probably knew the reality, and that's why it was tough.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett44:32

       And did Simon try and persuade you back into the band?

    9. LTLouis Tomlinson44:35

       Let me say that at, by this point... And I, I, I'd, I'd say Simon was aware of this, but maybe not quite so aware. Because we're a band, after about two years of One Direction, nobody, absolutely nobody could tell us shit. Now, we wouldn't, we were nice boys. We were never like rude or anything like that. But like, so like if Simon had like just... We didn't have that re- it wasn't... He might've had that relationship prior, like back in the '90s when all that stuff was kind of prevalent. But I think we- we'd always had our own kinda confidence like that. So, it, he was never involved in those kind of decision-makings. In fact, he was smart enough to realize that that would rub us up the wrong

16. 45:12 – 48:03

    Career Decline After One Direction

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson45:12

       way.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett45:12

       Makes sense.

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson45:14

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett45:15

       And then it ends. And, uh, your life goes from absolutely crazy to less crazy.

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson45:21

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's something... It's still something that I'm unpacking still, to be honest, and still trying to work out all of those kinda things. I remember, it's something I spoke about before, but Julian Bennetter, who is a producer who worked on a lot of the One Direction stuff, we had a great relationship with him. Really cool guy. We had this crazy night at, um, it was like some kind of Billboard Awards in Vegas. Julian, he pulled me aside and he said... And it was like really, it was funny 'cause he's not really like this heavy, but it was a real heavy statement. He'd obviously had a few vodka red bulls or something. And, uh, he was like, "Where do we go from here?" Now, by the way, the we upset me a little bit. It's like a, I understand that and we are all in this together, but that question is a hell of a lot deeper for me than it is you. I understand, I get it, but at the same time, you're probably, and what he did end up doing, is carrying on doing what he did. And I still don't really know the answer to that question. And I still, it's n- and in fact, maybe I don't think you can. I think a lot of people's, not everyone's, but most people's natural trajectory of, let's just call it success. I could make a pedantic argument for it not being specifically that. But, you know, they have a kinda lineal journey. They, that the older they get, the more successful that they get. What was really strange was being 24 years old and realizing that the only way is down from here. Like, it, there, there is no alternative reality where I at least keep up or supersede. No way. There was no chance of that. And now, it wasn't, that wasn't, you know... It was very obvious. It was very ob- obvious to anyone around it. And still it's something that is challenging, definitely. 'Cause you've had a look behind the curtain, you know. You know... Now these, those, some of the things that maybe I had then that I don't have now, I, you know, I'm not, I'm not overly pressed for. Like a, I don't know, like a billboard for the album on, uh, in LA or here in New York. Like, I don't get those kind of opportunities anymore. Does, does, do I lose any sleep over it? No. No, not really. But I think the feeling in general of... I have to work really hard to be, to, to compete at the level I do. Like, that is just a fact. Like, I'd just got a number one record on the last record on Faith in the Future. Never in a million years, never in a million years when I started my solo career did I ever think that I would be getting a number one record. It's a testament to my fans, testament to the record, the producers, et cetera. But I've always had to work, on my own anyway, I've always felt like I've had to work really, really hard just to kinda keep my head above water. Now, the reality of that statement is, and I realize that as I say it out loud, my version of head out of water or head above water is very different to a lot of people. 'Cause from 18 to 24, that whole landscape looked

17. 48:03 – 54:11

    Dealing With Comparing the Past to Now

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson48:03

       very, very different. And that's why I've, I've always found it quite unrealistic to like not... Like to not compare the two, I, I completely agree with that, 'cause they, they, you cannot compare them. The two being One Direction and my own solo career. But it's something that you can't ignore. I do this, I do a cover. Uh, stupid of me to call it a cover, I realized how funny that is. When I do a One Direction song, I call it a cover, which is really ironic. But I do Night Changes on my tour show, and I can remember this one show in particular, I think it was like a 5,000 capacity, uh, room, and I think maybe we'd done like 1200 tickets. Which, you know, is okay. That's all right.But when you're singing Night Changes at a gig like that, when you can vividly and vi- and visually remember singing Night Changes like that at, say, Wembley Stadium, and you're literally singing, "Look how fast the night changes," and you're looking out to this sparse room, it's like a brutal kind of poetry. And that's the point about it being unrealistic.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett49:03

       Hmm.

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson49:03

       Is I could, I could be the most... And I am. I could be the most glass-half-full guy in the world, but life is gonna constantly challenge me like that, definitely. Because that was the pinnacle.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett49:16

       Yeah. I, um... Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's very, very human. Obviously, the example and the scenario you're talking about is one no one, no one can understand.

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson49:23

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett49:24

       But it's, the comparison is how, how we work. It's how we understand the value of things.

    7. LTLouis Tomlinson49:28

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett49:28

       And, uh, as you say, going to the, the top of Mount Everest at 24 means that you're always gonna have some kind of, sort of even unconscious comparison to, to everything thereafter. Do you, what do you do about that? Do you have to use a different yardstick of measurement? Do you-

    9. LTLouis Tomlinson49:43

       I, I try to. I try to.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett49:45

        Which, these are words, aren't they? Do you know what I mean? They-

    11. LTLouis Tomlinson49:46

        Tha- that's it.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett49:47

        ... being honest.

    13. LTLouis Tomlinson49:48

        And some days I, I live by it. Some days I live by it, definitely. I, I, I wrote something on my social media probably, like, four or five years ago now, but it was on Instagram, I think, and about my interpretation of the word "success", because I'd spent a long time and I only knew through the lens of One Direction. And I think that's a constant battle. It's a constant conversation with myself internally that I can measure my own success in a different way. It doesn't have to be a numbers game, you know. In terms of, like, fulfillment, for example, and like, you know, going, doing... Like, this latest record that I've just written, like, I feel really, really good about it. There's been an element of me kind of swimming against the tide a little bit to this point. It's like that, the feeling of fulfillment is like, that's, that's legit.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett50:31

        Did you have conversations with your, your former band mates about how they were coping with these-

    15. LTLouis Tomlinson50:35

        Yeah, yeah.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett50:36

        ... things all different?

    17. LTLouis Tomlinson50:37

        Uh, to be honest, that would only happen me and Liam. Um, like, between the other boys, like, not that it's not, like, emotional, 'cause like, it is, and it's, it's definitely deeper than surface level, but it, it's, it's more... Uh, it's more... I would struggle to text the other boys as much.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett50:54

        Why?

    19. LTLouis Tomlinson50:55

        Me, just... I would love to hang out with them in person like that, but I just... there's an element of it feeling... it's just all a bit small talk, you know. Like, which is lovely and it's nice and it's nice to catch up like that, but me and Liam would always speak on a much more deep level. Because... And I, like, he definitely, he def-... I, I felt bad saying this 'cause I feel arrogant, but I shouldn't. I, I, I wanted to look, I wanted to look after him, definitely, Liam, like that, that was, that was like a role I feel like I was there to play. And like he definitely, you know, often his, uh, the way he would like perceive certain parts of his life, I, I would be really inspired by. Like, he was someone who... really brave at times, which, like, contrary to sometimes what he'd put out, but really, really brave. Like, he would ask anyone anything with a smile and like, you know, he, he had a really good way about him like that. I would say he was the closest to being my brother. Love him deeply, could spend hours and hours and hours with him, but there was an element of always checking in and just making sure that like, he's cool like that.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett51:58

        D- did you worry about him?

    21. LTLouis Tomlinson51:59

        Always. Always, yeah. C- because... Because I knew he was a little misunderstood. Uh, but also, you know, like interestingly, the record, when we're, when, when you're starting out as a solo artist, the parallels of people who know themselves make the best records, definitely. So like, if you're still unpacking all that information of who you are as a person, as an adult, which we all were post-One Direction, uh, it- it's near impossible to point and go, "This is who I want to be as an artist." 'Cause essentially, it's just a metaphor for who you are as a person. At least the, you know, the best stuff is. Liam b- would be someone who candidly I could say to him really honestly, like, "Bro, fucking hell, like, I miss being in the band," and we could like have a really honest conversation like that. Whereas... And I, I, I, I, I don't mean this in a, in a, in a, any kind of way, but if I'd said that to any of the other boys, I'd be worried that they might think, "Oh, things aren't going well in his solo life," you know. Whereas Liam, I never, I never had to worry about those things. It was, it was, it was like brothers like that.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett53:08

        He wore his heart on his sleeve, didn't he? So, you... Liam was Liam.

    23. LTLouis Tomlinson53:11

        Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett53:13

        You know.

    25. LTLouis Tomlinson53:13

        And I, I just... I... It's really fresh, that. It's a really, really cool way of living. 'Cause we all say it... Uh, even... Like, I would like to say, "I wear my heart on my sleeve," but you know, there's still 10% of me that's guarded in the right places. He certainly had his, his way of being. I like to...

    26. SBSteven Bartlett53:27

        I do... Like, as we were saying earlier, I do wonder if that made him slightly more susceptible to, um, the pressures. Because sometimes, you know, if you can, if you can put on a second face-

    27. LTLouis Tomlinson53:38

        Yeah.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett53:38

        If you can, you know what I'm saying?

    29. LTLouis Tomlinson53:39

        Yeah. Yeah. What's helped me in this job, and there's no truer time that that kind of shows itself, it's me as a parent, is, I... There is a real distinction. This is me, there is me at work, and there is me not at work, basically. So either being a parent or being a, a friend or a partner or whatever. That's always helped me to have that kind of distinction of, you know, when I'm dad to Freddie, I'm full-time dad (clears throat) and I'm not a singer, you know. And I'm... And, and any of that world outside does not, does not really matter. It's not relevant to me as a father, which it

18. 54:11 – 56:13

    Ads

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson54:11

       isn't. (page turns)

    2. SBSteven Bartlett54:12

       Did I ever tell you about the, uh, data breach that we had at my previous company?

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson54:15

       Yeah, I remember hearing about that.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett54:17

       Which, which, um, was a total nightmare. So I'm glad that we now use 1Password.

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson54:21

       What actually is it, Steve?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett54:22

       It's called, um, 1Password, and they're the sponsor of the podcast now. And they have this feature called Enterprise Password Manager, which means that if any of our passwords across the team are compromised or leaked, then it notifies us. And obviously, if that were to be the case, we're at huge risk across the entire team. Through 1Password EPM, you can also store all of your sensitive information. And it's helping us to move closer towards passkeys, which means eventually everybody will be able to log in to pretty much everything without ever having to put a password in.

    7. LTLouis Tomlinson54:49

       Sounds like a good addition.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett54:50

       Yeah, I think it's like the single most impactful security addition you can make to your team, especially if your team has tons of passwords that are all like hidden in Excel files and stuff.To my listeners, if you want to secure your business, head to 1password.com/doac. 1Password is a game changer. It's the future that I always wished would be the case, as someone that has, you know, 20, 30 different passwords for 20, 30 different applications. I asked my assistant, Sophie, to find me a reliable security system for my new place in LA. What she discovered is that most available options have the same issue, they're reactive and only take action after someone has broken into your house. SimpliSafe, who sponsors this show, has a completely different approach. If someone's lurking near your home or office, their AI-powered cameras detect them, then human agents who act like a remote security guard take action, speaking directly to the intruder, letting them know they're being watched on camera, and if necessary, triggering a siren or spotlight to scare them off. Or they can call 911 for police dispatch. This immediate response is why I went with SimpliSafe. No one else approaches security in the same way. They have no long-term contracts or hidden fees, so you can cancel at any time. They also have a 60-day money back guarantee. My audience can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com/doac. That is simplisafe.com/doac. There's no safe like a SimpliSafe.

19. 56:13 – 57:24

    Balancing Career and Personal Life

    1. SBSteven Bartlett56:13

       I- I've never found more photographs of a person's life in my life.

    2. LTLouis Tomlinson56:17

       (laughs)

    3. SBSteven Bartlett56:17

       And I mean-

    4. LTLouis Tomlinson56:19

       Cute. Nice little denim jacket.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett56:21

       What do you think when you see that photo?

    6. LTLouis Tomlinson56:23

       It looks like, uh, yeah, it reminds me of a nice time.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett56:26

       This one?

    8. LTLouis Tomlinson56:27

       Yeah. I- I remember that vividly. We did like a full photo shoot in my living room. Yeah. Quite like the pose with the hands in their pockets. It's much more nonchalant than I would actually be feeling.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett56:41

       I mean, these ones are... All th- the band photos. I mean, it's just fucking unbelievable. Like, looking at some of the, uh, crowds in these images is insanity.

    10. LTLouis Tomlinson56:49

        Yeah. (laughs) Oh, yeah, this... M- my, my mom took this picture. This was the first picture ever taken of us and me mum took this. Um-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett56:56

        You, you look super young.

    12. LTLouis Tomlinson56:58

        Yeah, yeah. That again, yeah. Eight... So I was the oldest, 18, then you've got, uh, Harry, Liam and Niall, they were 16, Zayn's 17.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett57:06

        And of course you're-

    14. LTLouis Tomlinson57:07

        Yeah, I love that picture. I love that picture. It kind of really sums up mine and Liam's relationship. I, I love it. I love it. He will have been telling me a joke that I didn't think was, like, hilarious at the time, so I'll be giving him that kind of face, and then probably about an hour later, I would've laughed to myself about it.

20. 57:24 – 59:42

    Your Mother's Death

    1. SBSteven Bartlett57:24

       And I have these, these beautiful pictures of your beautiful mother.

    2. LTLouis Tomlinson57:28

       Oh, yeah. They're lovely. I love this one. I love this one. This is cute. I like it. Yeah, I got, I got, uh, the... Very similar picture to this, uh, by me bedside table at home in my bedroom.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett57:43

       About a year after you leave One Direction, the, uh... Your, your mother passes away from leukemia. Thinking about the timing of all these events. So thinking about the, the shock of being thrown into a very different life, one without the boy band around you, and then your mother getting leukemia, which if people don't know is the 12th most common form of cancer. She, she passes away at age 42. The timing of all these things is- is quite unthinkable to me, because there's so much transition in your life. Um, I'm just terribly sorry. I'm just... I... You know-

    4. LTLouis Tomlinson58:15

       No, I appreciate you saying that, Ryan.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett58:16

       You know, I don't really have anything else to say other than just understanding what she meant to you and the role she had in your life. I'm terribly sorry, you know. I-

    6. LTLouis Tomlinson58:23

       There was definitely, as you said, the timing. Look, look, obviously there's no good time for anything like this, but I think the timing, that's what created a bit of... It didn't last too long, I want to say maybe six months, but of, like, true, like, resentment for the world, like real resentment. Just feeling really hard done by, you know. It's the kind of... Uh, one thing I remember about grief when you're in the midst of it, you could stub your toe, right, and something like that is utterly unjust. Now, that's something you might have done. Say none of this ever happened, you stub your toe, it'd be annoying, but you'd just get over it. Little things like that, I really, really struggled with when I, when I was grieving. So s- things that should work a certain way that don't. There's a zip on my jacket that won't quite go all the way up. Real micro, non-important little things. But I think because of the weight of the stuff that had happened, there was just... Yeah, there was a moment in my life, as I said, for about six months, where it just felt like I couldn't win, and in fact, I could only lose. So that's where even just stubbing your toe, you'll be like, "Oh yeah, another fucking thing." Now, it- it sounds stupid to say, but once you're met with these... What- when you're met with that kind of mindset of feeling hard done by, the smallest things definitely can amplify that.

21. 59:42 – 1:02:40

    Finding Out Your Mum Was Sick

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson59:42

    2. SBSteven Bartlett59:42

       When did you hear that she was sick?

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson59:45

       I got friendly with, uh, a footballer called Jamie Vardy, and he'd invited me to his wedding. So I was, I was at the wedding, and I had... It- it- it was, like, the party afterwards, and it was, like, 10:00 PM. At this point, I'd already had quite a few vodka red bulls, which was not ideal for the, the weight of the conversation. Um, my mum called me. I was, I was stood outside. It wouldn't have been out of the ordinary for my mum to call me, so I wasn't worried or anything like that. She'd call me, like, most days if not every day. And then she told me. And you know, like, what it's like anything like this in life, when- when you hear something like... That carries any kind of weight, like, the first 10 thoughts are either, "It can't be true. Maybe she's got it wrong. Maybe the doctors have got it wrong." Just all these stages of denial of... Before actually, you know, even embracing the thought. It wasn't really... It wasn't kind of really like me. I didn't even feel like it was like a cry for help at the time, but that night, I got absolutely battered. I got, I got really, really drunk. Um, that- that... There'll be nights where, you know... And there's has been nights in the past where I'll have a little bit too much to drink, um, more from not knowing me limit. But in this kind of situation, I... It's not something I've ever really used drink for, to be honest, but I just... That was... It felt the only way just to completely escape that moment in that, in that, uh, that night. What I found really challenging during...Even that first conversation with her about it was, I still wanted to inspire hope. I still wanted to like, 'cause she was really hopeful and she was like ... So I was trying to have this, like, genuine worry that any son would, but I also was trying to shield a bit of my mum from that. I didn't want her to, you know, feel like she'd upset me or, you know, even though obviously it wasn't her choice. But I can remember that idea of really trying to ... I would be real with my mum about how I was feeling, but there were times when I wouldn't be, 'cause I wouldn't want her to feel guilty.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:47

       So she told you over the phone that she'd had a diagnosis?

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson1:01:50

       Yes, yeah, she told me that she had leukemia. My first answer was, I don't know where, again, this is just like the definition of denial. My first answer, um, word for word was, "Oh, that's the good one to get though, right?" Meaning that has the most survival rate. Um, and bless her, she has to be like, "No. Not really."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:11

       And how long was it from that phone call till, till sh- her passing?

    7. LTLouis Tomlinson1:02:14

       I c- I have no idea. I could not... I, I want ... My guess would be 18 months. I think it might have been quicker than that. Um, the anniversary o- of her death, I get texts all the time on one of the anniversaries and someone will say, "Thinking of you today." And it's only at that point that I know that that's the day.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:35

       Mm-hmm.

    9. LTLouis Tomlinson1:02:35

       'Cause I just, it's deleted from my brain.

22. 1:02:40 – 1:06:47

    Going on Stage After Your Mum’s Death

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:40

       She, she passes, um, y- ... Because you don't have a, your, your biological father isn't around, so you're very much at that point, you know, you're the ... In some respects, you're the father of lots of siblings.

    2. LTLouis Tomlinson1:02:54

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:54

       'Cause you're the, you're the, you're big brother. Um, you, you went out on stage three days after her death for an X Factor performance.

    4. LTLouis Tomlinson1:03:00

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:02

       Um, from what I understand from, from Lottie, she very much pushed you to do that before she passed away and told you that you, you, you needed to do that performance.

    6. NANarrator1:03:13

       I'll never forget the X Factor final performance that he did with Steve Aoki when my mum had only passed away like a couple of days before, which I still can't believe he even, you know, had the strength to do. But my mum was just so proud of him and especially him starting his solo career. Even in, like, her final days, she was like, "If I don't make it, I still want you to do this performance." And when she did pass, we were like, "There's no way." No one would've expected him to do it, but he wanted to do it for her.

    7. LTLouis Tomlinson1:03:46

       And I knew e- I knew exactly what that was. I knew why she was telling me. She was telling me because she would've hated something that she, something that had happened to her affect my career and my life as a person. I would do it again for her. That's n- there's n- I don't think I'll ever have a more challenging time in my life than those three and a half minutes on stage. I did it only for her. I didn't, I didn't ... It's not something I look back on and go, "I'm really proud." I am proud that I did that, but that, that you almost say those kind of things when you want to do something, right? "I'm really proud that I did that." I, that wasn't ... It felt like it was taken out of my hands. I didn't want her to have that guilt, but it was the last thing in the world I wanted to do. Like obviously, like I just, it was, it was horrible. And also, the song alluded to ... The song was called Just Hold On. It's weird how empowering those moments are. I th- I can sit here now and comfortably say that the chance, now obviously they could, but the chances of my life being as dark as it was in those three minutes alone, like I would be desperately unlucky to ever be in a situation like that again, where it was, where I was so young, I was in a situation where, as you said, all the timing was, and then I felt like I'd, you know, been encouraged to go on stage, but it wasn't really something that I did, that I wanted to do. It puts everything into perspective, you know. So like, like, nothing's gonna get as hard as that. So I think it, it, there's, there's times where my job will weigh me down, even like today, you know? Not today, but I mean, in this current head. And it's just worth, it helps me remember, it helps me put things into, uh, perspective that, you know, just because a radio station isn't playing my single, you know, that, that, that hurts nought point nought nought nought nought nought one percent the same as, as something like that. So I think because I was so challenged emotionally and I, I, I survived the experience, it's given me a weird kind of confidence, to be honest. It, it, just knowing that life probably won't get that dark again. (laughs)

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:01

       You sometimes don't realize the, the role that your parents were playing until they're not around.

    9. LTLouis Tomlinson1:06:05

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:05

        That they were almost a sort of tectonic plate underneath everything. Was that, was that a realization at that point in time?

    11. LTLouis Tomlinson1:06:11

        Big time. I, I ... There was this true dependency on my mum that I did not realize until I'd got, until I'd lost me mum. Um, so I think there's, there was definitely stuff that I've had to learn, like, being, like, on my own. And often she would inspire confidence, you know. I'd say, "I'm worried about this. I don't wanna go to this audition." Or, "I don't wanna do this." Or, "I'm worried about this song." And she'd, like, you know, as she always did, made me feel like I could do anything in the wo- in the planet. And she'd actually make me feel stupid for even questioning the fact that I could, couldn't do anything. You know. So I think there's moments like that where you have to, you almost had to relearn confidence

23. 1:06:47 – 1:09:17

    Advice for People With Grief

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson1:06:47

       like that.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:48

       And h- how does, how does a young man grieve the loss of his mother at such a young age?

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson1:06:55

       Everyone, obviously everyone, everyone's grief is completely individual. Something I found out more recently. Purpose was mine. Now, this is, again, not a luxury that everyone has in a situation like I found myself in. I, I grieved and I, I, I had moments where I was deeply, deeply upset.But these were fleeting moments because there was too much to do for my sisters. There was too much to do for my nan and grandad. There was too much to do for me family where it gave me something to do. It gave me a true purpose. It gave me a reason, in the darkest days, to get out of bed and confidently get out of bed, 'cause I had s- there, there was stuff that needed to be done. And at that time, my sisters were so, so, so young and I was so terrified of what kind of effect that would have on them, you know, growing up. And luckily, they impress me every day. They're amazing, amazing women. My role felt like the, the strong one in that situation and someone who's willing to give someone, you know, Daisy would call me and she'd be really upset, and by the end of the call, she can just see the glimpse of a glass half full. That was my job, you know. The grief became less relevant because of the need to look after everyone else. Like, s- sometimes you get, might get asked like, you know, "What advice would you give to people with grief?" That's just an impossible question to answer just because, like, I'm still, I'm still feeling it. Like, you, you could, you could... And the interesting thing about that is, you could spend two weeks with me and you never knew me and you never knew my life story. Never in a million years would you think. So I don't carry myself like that. I'm not someone who's like down in the dumps like that. But it, it's still there, you know. It's the d- it will, will never go away.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:46

       What are, what are the symptoms of it still being there?

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson1:08:48

       It, it, it, there is like this air of, I suppose, air of unpredictable. This feeling of... And that's sometimes where my, my, uh, positivity comes from too. Like, things could change tomorrow. So I suppose that is, and that kind of jeopardy and that kind of idea, that's how I would interpret it. That... And f- 'cause for, for any grief I've experienced, it has been relatively quick. I haven't really had a lot of time to compute these kind of ideas.

24. 1:09:17 – 1:10:49

    Experience With Anxiety

    1. LTLouis Tomlinson1:09:17

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:17

       Does that create a certain anxiety with life and a certain worry for life that, you know, if the foundations are uncertain and bad news can arrive at any moment, one would, you know... That seems like the, the breeding ground of worry and anxiety. I, I actually wrote that down earlier 'cause when we were speaking earlier you said, "I wasn't a worrier back then."

    3. LTLouis Tomlinson1:09:35

       Hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:36

       When you were talking about your childhood.

    5. LTLouis Tomlinson1:09:38

       Yeah, I, I didn't used to be a worrier. Now, I'm sure most people can say that, right? Your worry, your worry levels, or at least for most people, are... You have less worry when you're younger, you know. You haven't quite understood all your emotions yet really.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:54

       Do, do you have anxiety? Do you, do you struggle with it?

    7. LTLouis Tomlinson1:09:57

       It's like, yeah, I experience it all the time. Is it something that kind of controls me? No. You know, I'm sure you've heard about this, that my vocal coach always used to say to me that the feeling of being anxious and excited are near identical in feeling.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:12

       Hmm.

    9. LTLouis Tomlinson1:10:12

       And, and, and that was something that always kind of stuck with me really 'cause, not always, but like a lot of, like, stuff that feels really good can be quite intimidating beforehand, you know.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:23

        Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 1:58:20