Michael Franzese: I Made $1.4 Million A Day In The Mafia

Former Colombo crime family captain Michael Franzese spills the inside story: how Mafia rules and sit-down justice built a 1.4 million dollar a day racket.

Steven BartletthostMichael Franzeseguest

Aug 19, 20242h 8mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,217 words

0:00 – 2:25
Intro
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  In your time in the mafia, what did you witness?
2. MFMichael Franzese
  I'm gonna be honest with you. We were bringing in 9, $10 million a week. I was arrested 18 times and I saw guys that died for the wrong reasons. But I'll tell you one thing, Steve, you're not gonna want to hear this, but it's the truth.
3. NANarrator
  Michael Franzese, one of the highest earning mafia members turned motivational speaker, who is sharing the ruthless lessons he learned about business, leadership, and resilience.
4. MFMichael Franzese
  So there's two levels in that life; you're either a racketeer or you're a gangster. And I was a racketeer, meaning I was elevating the family by making good money. I had 18 companies, defrauding the government outta tax, bringing in $10 million a week, just living the lifestyle, man, a jet plane, a helicopter.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  What was the most cash you ever saw?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  40, 50 million.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  In cash?
8. MFMichael Franzese
  In cash. Now, you can learn so much from the mafia. You know, I'll give you an example, the art of negotiation. This is a tremendous technique to get what you want, and I always won. So here's what you have to do. Now, you may be making all this money, but we have rules and you don't violate the rules, because the consequences are severe. There was a guy that had to kill his father. And then a very dear friend of mine, he did something that was total violation of our life, and he ended up getting killed. But the one thing that really hurt me bad, my dad had a powerful position in the mafia and he betrayed me. That was rough. Steve, the thing is, I've done a lot of bad things in my life, but it's not the path that I wanted to take. I realized then, "I gotta get away from this." But you don't walk away from this life, we're not allowed to do that.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  When does it all come crashing down for you? This is a sentence I never thought I'd say in my life. Um, we've just hit seven million subscribers on YouTube and I wanna say a huge thank you to all of you that show up here every Monday and Thursday to watch our conversations. Um, from the bottom of my heart, but also on behalf of my team who you don't always get to meet, there's almost 50 people now behind the Diary of a CEO that worked to put this together. So, from all of us, thank you so much. Um, we did a raffle last month and we gave away prizes for people that subscribed to the show up until seven million subscribers. And you guys loved that raffle so much that we're gonna continue it. So every single month, we're giving away money can't buy prizes, including meetings with me, invites to our events, and £1,000 gift vouchers to anyone that subscribes to the Diary of a CEO. There's now more than seven million of you, so if you make the decision to subscribe today, you can be one of those lucky people. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Let's get to the conversation.
2:25 – 4:27
Who is Michael Franzese?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Michael, who were you?
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Who was I? Interesting question. I, um... You know, I have to start with this, because you, you just came right off the bat and asked me a question that I don't wanna say stumped me, but maybe in a way did, in the same way that Jordan Peterson did. I'll tell you why. Jordan said to me, he said, "Michael, you spent 20 years in that life. Obviously you did some things that were not good." I said, "Yeah." He went, "How'd you do that?" And I said, "You know, Jordan, when I had to do something that I was uncomfortable with, I kind of stepped out of myself, I believe, took care of business, and then stepped back in." So he looked at me and he said, "Well, how do you know who the real Michael is? The guy that stepped out or the guy that's sitting here in front of me now?" I said, "Well, that's a good question, Jordan." I said, "But, uh, I, I've been this guy for the last almost 30 years, so hopefully this is the guy." So, you know, who am I? I mean, I'm a guy that, uh, you know, at a point in time in my life, I was, I was on the right track, loved my dad very much, and as a result of that, I followed him into this life to try to help him out. He had a 50-year prison sentence and I thought the only way to help him, and he thought the same, was to really get on the street and do some of the work that was necessary to try to overturn a conviction that he got. Wrongful conviction, by the way. So I became that other guy that was able to... I was gonna be a doctor. I was my... I was a pre-med student when my dad got this 50-year sentence. So, um, but then I just... I mean, I fell into that life and I, I thought I did a pretty good job while I was there and I acclimated to it pretty, pretty, you know, easily.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  When someone thinks
4:27 – 6:32
Inside a Mafia Family
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  about you joining the mafia, they assume that your home life must have been a certain way. You must have had a really, really rough up, up, early upbringing. Is that the case?
2. MFMichael Franzese
  You know, um, I had a very strict mother. I mean, she was 16 when I was born. And we had a very turbulent life because of my father's involvement in that life. My father was an extremely high profile guy at that time, major target of law enforcement. So from the time I was four or five years old, my dad was in and outta jail, going on trial, and we had a lotta, a lotta turbulence, police around us all the time. So I witnessed all that, was part of that. I don't know if that contributed to, you know, who I am now. I, I, I don't know. I mean... But it certainly, I mean, it had an ef- effect on me at that point in time and I hated the police, I hated the government, I hated anything about law enforcement, because I saw them as the enemy the way they, you know, harassing my dad, harassing my family, at least in my view at that point. So it did shape, you know, my, my world view of those people at that time.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  And they were parked outside your house, I read.
4. MFMichael Franzese
  They, uh... We had six or seven different agencies parked around our house, and every time we left, there was a parade of law enforcement vehicles following us. I mean, it was that severe with my dad. Uh, I, I've never seen anything like that, quite honestly. You know, other people have had surveillance, but I guess because I grew up and I witnessed that as part of it, but it was so intense with him. It really was.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Did you know why they were there? And did you know what your dad was doing?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  You know, it was hard not to. Although he never sat down with me and said to me, "This is what I'm all about," it was ba- basically from other people, from what I read and what I witnessed. Um, so yeah, I mean, I knew what he was about, but I thought it was a good thing, you know? (laughs) 'Cause you know, his, his, his friends came to the house. To me, they were like Uncle Joe, uncle this, uncle that. Good people, you know? We'd go out together. So I thought it was a good thing at that time.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  What was he
6:32 – 10:35
My Dad Was A Mafia UnderBoss
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  about?
2. MFMichael Franzese
  My dad?
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
4. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah, very charismatic guy, you know. Uh, good father. I mean, he wanted the best for me. He didn't want me in this life or... originally wanted me to go to school, be a doctor, get an education, stay off the street. That was his initial desire for me. Um, he was a good husband to my mother, I thought, at that time. But, you know, he had that other side of him that once or twice growing up, I kind of witnessed, and I saw there was something else, you know, with him.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  What did you witness?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  You know, I'll never forget, uh, it was really two things that, that happened. I was... he was taking me up... My, my dad was involved in the music business, so he was taking me into Manhattan to meet with some of the people, you know, just his daily work. And along the way, he had to stop and he had to meet with somebody. And I was in the car and two of his guys that I knew very well with, with my dad, and they were talking to this guy, and the conversation got very heated. And I seen my dad really angry. Never saw him like that before. And, uh, Steve, I'm, I'm not kidding, at least this was the kid's impression, I was young, he just picked that guy up by, like, his throat and had him up against the wall. And I saw the guy was horror-stricken. I, I didn't... you know, I never saw my dad like that before. 'Cause he didn't, he didn't hit us or anything as kids. You know, I had brothers and sisters. He didn't treat us that... My mom was tough. My mom, forget it. She didn't spare the rod. But my, my dad was not. So to see him like that, I said, "Wow, there is really another side of him." You know, a street side of him.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  You said there was another experience.
8. MFMichael Franzese
  Another experience, this was... it was kind of funny, but in a way, it wasn't. We had a carpenter that was working in our house, and he was kind of a... his name was Sal, I'll never forget. A big guy, huge guy. And, uh, he would never finish anything on time, the carpentry. My dad would hire him because you probably didn't have to pay him much, right? And my mom was always on him, you know, "The guy comes, he don't finish the job," and all that. And came to the house once, and my dad just, just went off on him. Punched him, like, in the house and knocked the guy out, you know, in front of all of us. We were kind of surprised. But he said, "Don't blame me. Your mother's nagging me too much, I can't take it." You know? (laughs) It was one of those things. So those... as a young person, those were the two things that I really witnessed with him.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Those were clues. Those were clues of something else. Those were a window into his other life?
10. MFMichael Franzese
  Mm-hmm.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  And what was his other life? What was the reality of his other life as you've come to understand it?
12. MFMichael Franzese
  Well, another thing, and this, this... it's amazing how you can remember things sometimes at a young age, but you can't really put it together. I, I have to go back. The first real incident that I had is, um... I was probably four years old, and we were living in Brooklyn, but my dad had moved us out, me and my mom, to Long Island, where my grandparents were. We were living in their house for a while. And I didn't see my dad for a couple of days. He's gone. And then one morning, he comes in, and my dad had a heavy beard. He hadn't shaved. And, uh, his right-hand man was just standing out on the porch, kind of standing guard. And my dad came in, hugged my mother. My mother was a little upset. She was crying. Then he came over and hu- and hugged me. I was sitting on the step in my grandmother's house. I'm saying, "What this is... what is this all about?" He was there for about a half an hour, and then he left. Well, what I didn't find out till later on, our family, the Colombo family, was at war at that point. And so my dad was not at home. It's kind of dangerous to be at home. And, you know, it lasted for a while, and I didn't know what that meant at that time. You know, it's... you, you look back and you put these things together later on. So really, I would say, it was those three incidents. But look, my dad was a... you know, he was a, a captain in that life and then an underboss in that life. So he had a very high position, powerful position. A lot of people around him, a lot of guys that were subordinate to him. And, uh, you know, he was big time in that life.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  He was a captain and an underboss?
14. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  I have been trying to understand
10:35 – 12:10
How the Mafia Family is Structured
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  the structure of a mafia family.
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Mm-hmm.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  So I printed off this to try and understand it from what I, from what I can see. And I'll put this on the screen for anyone that's interested and pin it below. Is that... is that somewhat accurate in terms of the structure of a mafia family?
4. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. Yeah, that's it. These are, uh... this is the true rankings and that's the, uh... I mean, there's a boss and another underboss, and the consigliere is kind of an advisor to the boss. And then you have the caporegimes is the real term for it, or capos. And they are, uh... they're kind of the street bosses. They're in an elevated position. And then you have the soldiers, which is the first official rank. When you get made, the term is made, on the night that you take the oath and you become an official member of that life, you're ranked as a soldier.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Ah.
6. MFMichael Franzese
  And, um... and the associates are guys that are around us, but never taken the oath. They're not full-fledged members. They're just associates.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  So from the bottom up, the bottom level is the associates. I'm gonna repeat this back to you just to make sure I've got it. Um, and they're not... they haven't taken the oath, so they've not become what you call made men.
8. MFMichael Franzese
  Correct.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  The soldiers are the, the first level that have taken the oath.
10. MFMichael Franzese
  Correct.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Um, and they report into capos.
12. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  Capos? And the capos report into the underboss.
14. MFMichael Franzese
  Capos can go right to the boss also.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  Okay.
16. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. Eh...
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  And then there's the boss above the underboss.
18. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes. He's the boss. He's the official ruler of the family.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and your dad became an, an underboss.
20. MFMichael Franzese
  Underboss, yes.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  So he was one below
12:10 – 17:33
The History of the Colombo Family
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  the, the boss?
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  And you mentioned your family had a certain name. What was that name?
4. MFMichael Franzese
  Colombo.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Colombo.
6. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  What is the... 'Cause I think I need to understand the kind of history of the mafia to understand what a Colombo is.
8. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes. Well, you know, originated in Italy, obviously, Sicily, and, um, it was originally just a, a group in Italy that banned together to protect their towns from marauders that were coming in and, and, you know, um, doing damage in the... in the towns and the cities. And eventually, for some reason, they started becoming a little bit of a criminal, you know, body, and then they migrated, many of them, to New York, you know, back in 1901, 19 oh... I, I think the earliest, you know, late, late 19... I think it was maybe in 1885 or something like that was when they first started coming here to the United States. Came legally. Went to Ellis Island, and came in legally. And originally, the guys that came in, they were just kind of preying on their own people in, in the cities that, you know, they, uh, they got into. And, you know, I can go through all of this, but, uh, you go back to the days of Al Capone. I'm sure you know, you've heard that name, uh, who originally came from Brooklyn, then went out to Chicago. (clears throat) And I always say this, they were obviously involved in criminal activity, you know, loan-sharking, lending money at usurious rates, extorting some of the shop owners, you know, for protection, getting money out of them, little bit of the gambling business. But what really happened, I always say this, it was the government, the United States government that made the mafia strong in the United States. And when did they do that? With prohibition. 'Cause it was then that the guy real- the guys realized, "Hey, people want this. They want a drink. The government is, uh, you know, banning it, but we're gonna allow them to happen... to have it." And so they started to create... they got into the illegal booze business, basically. And to give you the extent of that, in New York State alone, there were 36,000 speakeasies, which were il- illegal bars at the time. 36,000 in New York alone, and the mafia controlled all of them. And people wanted it, and they gave it to 'em. And, um, it w- it was extremely lucrative. I mean, you're talking, you know, in today's money, billions of dollars. And that's what started to create this organization. And then in the '40s, Lucky Luciano, who again came from, uh, from Italy, um, saw that a lot of the guys were starting to war among each other. It was always power and control and money. And he said, "We're not gonna exist. We're not gonna survive like this, so we have to become an organization, a business." And he's the one that created the Mafia Commission and split it up into families. Actually, at that time, there were nine families nationwide, and there were bosses of each family. And that's how this whole structure came about. It was in the '40s. It was actually him, Meyer Lansky, who played a significant role, even though Meyer Lansky was not a made guy because he was Jewish, and you have to be of Italian descent. But he was the right-hand man, um, uh, to Lucky Luciano. And that's when the mafia really came to be here in the United States.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  So, the mafia was this one organization, and then Lucky Luciano, did you say-
10. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... he split it into lots of families.
12. MFMichael Franzese
  Correct.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  Were those families actually related by blood in any way?
14. MFMichael Franzese
  No. No.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  Was it just... When you say split it into families, was he... did he essentially just appoint lots of CEOs to run different parts of the same organization?
16. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. It was called a family. I mean, you could've called it a group or a whatever you wanted to call it, but we g- we called it families. And, uh, no, they weren't necessarily related. Um, and somebody emerged in that group as the top guy, and he officially appointed them as the boss. And in order to have a seat on the commission, which was the ruling body of all of these families nationwide, you had to be the boss or a representative of your family that the boss designated. And you can then sit on the commission, and the commission allegedly, um, created policy for all of the families nationwide. And that's how it worked.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  Allegedly.
18. MFMichael Franzese
  Allegedly because, you know, I, I got to understand that the commission was like the United Nations. Sounds good, you know, and they, they're gonna create policy, but really you can't tell a boss of his own family what to do. He has total autonomy. So it sounded good, and sometimes the commission will make a policy that people will respect. But if the boss of that family doesn't want to, they don't have to.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  And how big were the families?
20. MFMichael Franzese
  In New York, we had five families, and in each of the... uh, a total, total made guys in those families was about 750 guys. You know, the Gambino family had about 250 guys, and this is through my era. Genovese family, 250 guys. Bonanno family, Colombo family, Lucchese, we had about 100 and some odd each. We were the smaller families. Uh, but you had total about 750 made men, guys that actually took the oath, and then we had a lot of associates, you know, hundreds. So we had a, we had a big presence, especially in New York.
17:33 – 18:50
Mafia Family Wars
1. MFMichael Franzese
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  And did the families fight each other even in New York? Were there arguments amongst families?
3. MFMichael Franzese
  Prior to the '40s, yes. When the commission was created, yes. They would go to war among each other. Once, uh, that commission was created, there was no more wars among the families. Anytime there was a war, it was a civil war, and it was always a war for power. Our family, the Colombo family, we were one of the more violent, warring families. We had three wars during my lifetime in the Colombos, and it was always for power. Who wanted to be the boss. You don't have elections. Somebody wants to take over, it's a power struggle. And however it turns out, it turns out.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... within the family?
5. MFMichael Franzese
  Within the family. Now, other families could say, "Okay, we throw our support behind you but not with manpower." It's, you know, whoever you're rooting for at that point. But, um, no, things were solved, you know, once the commission came into place in the family, things were solved, uh, amicably usually, you know, peacefully. But there was always a lot of disagreements, there was a lot of sit-downs, you know, to straighten things out. We had a lot of that, you know. I was very active in that life and I was in a sit-down every other day, you know, trying to resolve something. Either one of my crazy guys got in trouble or it was a business situation. Uh, it was a lot of that.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  What
18:50 – 20:51
What Happens at a Mafia Sitdown?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  is a sit-down? I was reading about this, uh, in your work and I, I found it quite interesting because I think sometimes in business as a CEO, maybe we should emulate this idea of having a sit-down. We have a lot of meetings and a lot of emails and stuff like that. But it seems like you have a purer way of dealing with things.
2. MFMichael Franzese
  We do. A sit-down was the way we resolved everything, everything. We sat down, they were structured. When I say structured, you had normally the boss was in control of that. If it was a serious one, rather than two captains or capos getting together, you had to bring the boss in. Uh, he was the final rule. What he says goes, like it or not. And there was rules. If you're a made guy and I'm a made guy, and we're arguing over a business, uh, issue, and you're lying through your teeth, I can't call you a liar. If I call you a liar, I lose the argument automatically because I disrespected you. You have to be respectful in meetings. So if a guy's lying, you gotta figure out how to let the boss understand that without calling him a liar. And then at the end of this, um, you know, you, uh, whatever decision the boss makes, that's it. There's no appeals, there's no nothing. You shake hands, you get up, and you leave. And that's the final ruling. So you mentioned this, I wrote a book. Uh, it was actually a business book, I'll Make You An Offer You Can't Refuse. HarperCollins was the publisher. After they heard about that, they said, "We're not having any more meetings. From now on-
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
4. MFMichael Franzese
  ... they're all sit-downs." (laughs) They said, "That's it," you know, 'cause it was a lot more efficient.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  What kind of things would get resolved in a, in a sit-down?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  Normally, business disputes.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  Okay.
8. MFMichael Franzese
  Um, and then sometimes, quite honestly, you know, you know, look, that's a, a life with serious consequences. And if somebody violated policy, made a mistake to the point where he was gonna pay for it seriously, you had a sit-down to decide his fate basically. You had people speaking for him, people speaking against him, and then the boss would make the final ruling. So that could be, you know, a serious sit-down, could be a business matter.
20:51 – 21:20
How the Mafia Decides Who Lives and Who Dies
1. MFMichael Franzese
  Uh-
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  So if in the case of deciding someone's fate, would the person you're deciding their fate be... would they be sat there?
3. MFMichael Franzese
  No. No.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  So it'd be someone on, basically speaking-
5. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... on behalf of one side of that decision?
7. MFMichael Franzese
  Correct.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Things like whether this person should live?
9. MFMichael Franzese
  Correct.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Have, have you ever been in a sit-down where people were discussing-
11. MFMichael Franzese
  I have, yes.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... if someone should live? And you've seen it go both ways?
13. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm. Your father got sent to prison
21:20 – 23:30
Franzese’s Dad In Prison
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  when you were 19?
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. Well, he finally... uh, he was in and out before that-
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Right.
4. MFMichael Franzese
  ... but he started to do, uh, time on that 50-year prison sentence. I was 19.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  How did that change your life?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  You know-
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  'Cause you, uh, through everything I read, you really loved this man.
8. MFMichael Franzese
  I loved him. He's a good dad. And he, he wanted the best for me at that point. And he taught me great things. I mean, he, he really did. And, you know, the one advantage I had in my life, and again, taught to me by my dad, he always said, "Son, be a good listener. Listen before you speak. You know, be careful. Don't, you know, don't, don't speak out of turn." He always told me to be a good listener. So the person I listened to the most was him. And he taught me well in that regard. So I had a lot of love and respect for my dad. And, um, when he went away, it was devastating 'cause he was 50 years old when he went into prison. Figure you add 50 on top of that, he'd never come out of prison alive. That's what we thought, you know. So it was, it was, uh, it was tough.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  I can almost still see the emotion in you when you talk about him going away to prison.
10. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. It was a defining moment in my life because, you know, I, I realized things were gonna dramatically change. I mean, I was the oldest with my mom. I had three younger brothers and sisters. And, um, I knew I had to play a role in that, you know, in, in taking care of my mom 'cause my dad, when he went away, he said, "Listen, I'm entrusting the family to you." He said, "You know, be a good son and take care of your brothers and sisters. Take care of your mother." So I mean, I had that responsibility. Um, and I was doing that anyway because during many of my dad's trials, my mom would go and I would... One time he was, you know, tried a couple of hundred miles away from us. They moved the venue to Albany, New York, and I'm in Long Island. So my mom would be away for three or four days at a time with my dad and I'd be watching the kids. And so, I mean, I took on that role early on. But then when he went away, it became a lot more, you know, um, serious.
23:30 – 30:34
Joining the Mafia: How Michael Franzese Became a Made Man
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Your life when he went away, you were studying to-
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Be a doctor.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... be a doctor.
4. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  It's hard to imagine the sort of turn of, turn of events that happened in your life at that point. When you're studying to be a doctor, your dad goes to prison, and it ends up changing the trajectory of your life.
6. MFMichael Franzese
  Mm-hmm.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  It ends up swaying you towards the life he had just come from. And you say that he was wrongly imprisoned.
8. MFMichael Franzese
  My dad was framed on that case.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Framed?
10. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah, 100%. I'll take it to my grave, Steve. He was, um, he was supposedly, uh, masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies. And, um, you know, when my f- my dad first went away, I, I, I was with him in the visiting room. We were in, in a jail. And I looked at him, I said, "Dad, bank robbery?"And he looked at me and he said, "Son, I'm innocent. I'm not a bank robber. I didn't order these bank robberies." He says, "I was framed. The government framed me." My dad had never lied to me to that point, and he said, "We gotta work to overturn this conviction." And why did I believe... uh, first of all, he never lied to me so I believed it. But the four witnesses that testified against him were all drug addicts. My dad, my entire life, preached against drugs to me. He used to make up stories, parables, to, to show me the dangers of drugs, all of us, though, all the kids, so that we would never get involved. He hated anything to do with drugs. Always spoke about it. That's why I never saw my dad as a hypocrite in that regard. He wouldn't associate with these people, no, "Let's do bank robberies with them." So it made it very real. And so it angered me in some ways, but it motivated me to say, "You know what? I can't let my dad die in here," you know? And then at the same time, I was getting very close to Joe Colombo, who was the boss of our family, Colombo family. And, uh, he kinda took me under his wing 'cause, you know, he, uh... obviously, my dad was his underboss. And I started to meet a lot more of my dad's friends, and they would say to me, "Mike, what are you doing going to school? If you don't help your father out, he's gonna die in prison." So I was very... it affected me in a big way. I said, "I can't let that happen." And even though my dad did not want me involved in the life, but I went to visit him in the visiting room at Leavenworth Penitentiary, and I said, "Dad, I'm not going to school anymore. If I don't help you out, you're gonna die in here." And we kinda argued about it 'cause he, he was disappointed. He didn't want that for me. He knew the life was tough. He didn't want it for me. He didn't want it for any of us kids. And, uh, but I was pretty headstrong as a kid. And I said, "Dad, my mind is made up. I lost interest with school. I'm not gonna go." I said, "It's a... you're wasting your breath." And basically, he looked at me, Steve, and, you know, and, and, uh, I don't ever wanna be offensive to the audience, but he looked at me, and he said, "Okay, but if you're gonna be on the street, then I want you on the street the right way." In his mind, the right way was to become a member of his life. So he looked at me, and he said, "I gotta ask you a question, very serious." I said, "Go ahead." He said, "If you ever had to kill anybody, could you do it?" And I said, "Dad, under the right circumstances? Yeah, I could do it." He said, "That's the right answer." He said to me... then he looked at me, and he said, "Go home. Somebody's gonna be in touch with you. Do what you're told." That's all he said. He didn't break it down. He didn't say, "This is what's required of you." Nothing, 'cause you know, Steve, that's a secret life. You're not supposed to talk about that life with anybody outside of it. My dad wouldn't violate that policy, even with me, his own son. He just figured, "Okay, kid's got it in him. Go home and do what you're told." And I didn't question him. I said, "Okay, Dad, this is what you want. Just point me in the right direction." I mean, that's the kind of bond that we had together at that point. And, uh, and I left there, and that's how things started for me.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  When you answered that question your dad asked you, were you telling the truth?
12. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. I mean, obviously, I'd never been in that situation, but I thought about it, and I don't, I don't remember what rolled through my mind at that point. Did I say to myself, "Well, this is the answer my dad wants?" Or did I say to myself, "Yeah, I could really do it"? As I sit here now, all these years later, I can't honestly answer that. Um, but the answer was yes.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  He didn't, um... he didn't ever try and stop you, or did he? Did he ever try and persuade you out of join, joining the Mafia?
14. MFMichael Franzese
  No. I mean, prior to that point, that's not what he wanted for me. But once I made up my mind, I think there was a feeling of pride or joy in my dad. I kinda seen it in him, and that, you know, once I did become a made guy, he was, he was overjoyed. He was thrilled.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  How did he or anyone else think that you joining the Mafia would help him?
16. MFMichael Franzese
  Simple. Needed money for attorneys. I had kind of a business head. My dad knew that. We needed to track down witnesses and people that were involved in the case that could, you know, say this was a frame-up, and that's exactly what I did. I mean, I went after all of these witnesses, uh, to try to find them and get them to recant their testimony. I worked with the lawyers as a result of that, and eventually did get, you know, three of the witnesses to recant their testimony. Gave them lie detector tests, proved they lied at the trial, that the FBI had gone along with the story that they made up, 'cause my father was such a... they wanted him so bad. They really did. And, and if you go back to the '60s and you look at the amount of media attention he had, you know, you wouldn't believe it. But, um, so the FBI, at that time, I believe was complicit in, in this frame-up because they might have known that these guys were lying. One of the, one of the witnesses told me, um, that when they agreed to cooperate with the government, they were going to put these bank robberies or the... make the masterminds somebody else, and they actually did. A guy by the name of Tony Polisi. They said, "Well, he was the original guy that told us how to do these bank robberies." And then when the FBI told them... this came right from the witness, the FBI told them, "Well, that'll get you some time off, but I ain't gonna go that far. We don't care about Tony Polisi. A guy like Sonny Franzese, that would matter." And then they went and they concocted this story because, Steve, the thing is, they committed all the bank robberies, every one of them, and they, they described it in great detail at the trial. And all they said was that Sonny Franzese ordered them at a meeting that we had once at the Kew Motor Inn. And, um, why did they pick the night for the meeting? Because my dad was under constant surveillance, and the FBI told them what day my dad would be available to... they wouldn't have an alibi. He's probably sitting at home. Wouldn't have an alibi to say that he wasn't at that meeting. So they structured this whole thing. And many people afterwards have said Sonny would never associate with these type of guys. So...You know, all those things came together and, and I real- like I said, look, I went to crime- I went to jail for a crime I was guilty of. Plead guilty, did my time. Uh, but this particular crime that my dad did, I'd take it to my grave. He, he was not, he was no bank robber.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  Was your dad a good guy?
30:34 – 33:56
My Dad Was Involved in 35 Murders
1. SBSteven Bartlett
2. MFMichael Franzese
  I thought so. (laughs) I mean, yeah. Listen, people liked him. My dad was very well-liked.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Objectively-
4. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... as you sit here today, do you think he was a net positive?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  Listen, my da- look, I, I'm gonna tell you this. You know, the, the word on the street from the FBI, my dad was involved in 30, 35 murders. No, he never admitted that to me about anyone in particular. He was indicted for one murder and he was acquitted in that case, found not guilty. But my dad was, he was a tough guy. There's no question. So.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  If he was involved in 35 murders as the FBI suggest, do you think he was better off behind bars? What I'm getting at here really is if they framed him, was it a net be- benefit to society that they framed him?
8. MFMichael Franzese
  Well, you know, Steve, let me, let me, I, I know this is gonna be a tough one, but let me, let me tell you how I think. The g- the, the right and just side of me, the legally just side of me says that the government is never allowed to break the law to uphold the law. Because if you allow that to happen, then it falls into monarchy and people are not protected. 'Cause if they do it against Sonny Franzese, they can do it against anybody. So I believe strictly, the government has enough tools and weapons to get people the right way, uh, and they do 96, 97% of the time. They shouldn't be allowed to violate the law to go after a criminal. That's my, my feeling on it. Now, another thing is this, people think when we take an oath, the oath of omertà, it's an oath to stay silent. It's not an oath to lie, steal, cheat and kill. Does that happen as part of that life? Yes. But we're told straight out, now try to understand the thinking here. You come into that life, you're told straight out, "We have rules. You don't ever violate another man's wife, daughter, sister, girl, never. That'll cause you to die." During my era, we weren't allowed to deal with drugs. You deal with drugs, you get caught, you die. You maybe do some other things, you're not honest with people, you disrespect somebody, you hit another made guy, you die. Now we understand that. And they tell you, your best friend may be the one that pulls the trigger because the life comes before anything. That's it. You don't violate the rules. That's how we maintain control in this life. That's how we existed for 100 years, and that's how it's gonna stay. So now you're saying, okay, we all agreed to this. We all admitted it. If one of us decides to violate the policy or the law and we get caught, well, we understand the consequences. So that's how I looked at it, and that's how I justified it. Now, does that say you can go out and start to do random killings? No. If the boss tells you to go kill somebody because he doesn't like 'em and you do it, that's not right. But if we kill our own, and, you know, you hear a lot of times about, "We only kill our own." Well, we don't only kill our own. But if we only kill our own knowing that we made that choice, well then, okay. I, I kind of, I kind of get it in a way. Even though murder is murder and it's a crime and it's sinful and I understand that. But that's how you justify it.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  But it wasn't the case that
33:56 – 36:15
How Does The Mafia Kill People?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  you only killed your own?
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Well, for some of us it was, and for others, it was not. And I've seen both sides of that.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  You've never talked about y- having to kill someone, have you?
4. MFMichael Franzese
  No.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Why is that?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  It's, it's a, it's just not a subject I care to get into, you know? I, uh... Listen, I like to be as honest as I possibly can because I am a Christian and you don't wanna lie to people. But it's not something I want to talk about.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  I was wondering 'cause I, when I, when I read that, I thought maybe it's because, you know, there's some, might be legal re- retribution. Maybe it's because, you know, it's not nice for people to hear about. Maybe it's because there's still some kind of like rule where you can't say anything. But I wondered why. Maybe it's all of the above, I don't know.
8. MFMichael Franzese
  Well, you know, Steve, look, there's guys, there's a lot of guys on the street now and if you go on YouTube, you'll see a number of them, and they've admitted to murders that they were involved in. These are made guys. And they've admitted to it and many of them h- had struck a deal with the government. They had immunity for the crimes they committed, even murder. I mean, the government give you immunity for murder if you want to, uh, if they want you to cooperate and help them out. It's amazing, but they'll do it. And so they have immunity. They can talk about their crimes. I didn't cooperate to that level at all. I don't have immunity for anything that I've done in the past, you know? And listen, you know, our laws here in the United States, if you were standing next to somebody when they murdered somebody else, you're there, you could, you could be charged for murder the same way to them. So, you know, I'm not saying I ever was in that position. I'm just saying that's the law. So, you know, why talk about it? Number one, and number two, murder is ugly. You know, it's, it's ugly. And you don't ever want to talk about it. I mean, I don't... If I were to do something like that, I wouldn't be proud of it. I'm not trying to throw my chest out and say, "Hey, look what I could do." Guys go to war, they kill people all the time, you know, in defense of our country or defense of... So I mean, it's not like, oh God, you know, nobody... I mean, murder happens every single day.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
10. MFMichael Franzese
  Who wants to talk about it?
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Some people do.
12. MFMichael Franzese
  I know. Not me.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  You got closer
36:15 – 39:49
Is There Mafia Training? What It Takes to Join
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  to the mafia when your father was sent down and this was the point where you decided not to go to school. The boss of the Colombo family-
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... brings you close, brings you under his wing. Um-Do, do you have to do some kind of training or something to join the Mafia? Is there any... Oh, you do?
4. MFMichael Franzese
  Oh, yeah. Well, when you come into... H- Here's what happened. I leave there, a captain in the family picked me up and took me to see the boss. Now unfortunately, Joe Colombo was assassinated. He was shot, seriously wounded. He lingered for about seven years and then he died as a result of these wounds. So a new boss took over, and he's, he's passed away now. And I sat with him. This was about two weeks after my father sent word downtown that he was proposing me to be part of their life. You can't just go up to somebody and say, "I'd like to join." Somebody has to propose you, vouch for you, say you have what it takes. There's a lot of nepotism in that life. A lot of fathers brought their sons in, their nephews, whatever. So in my case, it was my dad that proposed me. And so, I sat with the boss and he said to me, "Here's the deal. You wanna become a member of our life. Your father sent the message. Is that true?" And I said, "Yes." He goes, "Well, here's the deal. From now on, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you're on call to serve this family, the Colombo family. That means if your mother is sick and she's dying, you're at her bedside. We call you to service, you leave your mother, you come and serve us. From now on, we're number one in your life before anything and everything. When and if we feel you've deserved this privilege, this honor, to become a member, we'll let you know. That's it. And do you accept that?" And I said, "Yes, I do." And so for the next two and a half years, I was in, like, a recruit pledge period where I had to do anything and everything I was told to do to prove myself worthy. It could've been something very menial, a lot of discipline in that life, a lot of authority, a lot of alleged respect. You had a meeting at 8:00, you weren't there at 7:30, you were late. You can never be late in that life. I don't care what the situation is. You had a meeting at, at 8:00. If there was traffic and you were concerned, come the night before and sleep in the car. You can never be late, no excuses. You know, drive the boss to a meeting, sit in the car three, four, five hours. God forbid you leave, you go to the restroom, get a newspaper. He comes out, you're not there. "Oh my gosh, we could've had trouble. You, you were the getaway driver, you weren't there." I know, I did that once and I paid the price, you know, for it. That's very serious stuff.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  You paid the price?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  Well, paid the price, in other words, I got a real good tongue lashing, I'll tell you. You know, um, you know, just stuff like that. They kind of put you on the shelf for two weeks, you know, to make you understand the seriousness of what you did so you never do it again. You never repeat your mistakes in that life if you're smart. If you wanna... If you wanna, number one, wanna survive, and number two, you wanna move up, you never repeat your mistakes. So you know, things like that. And then look, I'm gonna be honest with you, you know, as, as honest as I possibly can. It's a violent life at times. If you're part of the life in some shape or form, you're part of the violence. And, uh, if anybody tells you differently, they're either not being honest or they weren't a made member of that life. And that's just how it goes.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  Why'd you say that?
8. MFMichael Franzese
  What?
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  'Cause you said, you said, "The menial..." and then you said, "It's a violent life." Are you, are you saying that in that sort of probationary two years, you had to do both of those things? You had to be involved in the violence and do the menial stuff?
10. MFMichael Franzese
  L- Let's put it this way. They gotta have en- enough faith in you that you can be...
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
12. MFMichael Franzese
  ... capable of doing whatever it is they tell you to do. They have to, they have to understand that and feel that. Because if they don't feel that, you're not going anywhere. That, that's it. So during that time, you're gonna be tested.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  And you were tested?
39:49 – 40:56
Choosing The Mafia Over My Loved Ones
1. SBSteven Bartlett
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  When, when they made you pledge that if your mother was dying and you were at her bedside and they called you and asked you to do something, you'd leave, would you have left if your mother was dying?
4. MFMichael Franzese
  Back then, I mean, I might have. I mean, you know, I was a, I was a play-by-the-rule guy, you know? I, uh, you know, I, I was very fortunate in that I had a great teacher in my dad. He was a student and master of the life. And so... And I was like a sponge. I absorbed whatever my dad told me. I listened. And, you know, some of the things he told me were, were right. So I might have at the time, I'm gonna be honest with you. I mean, I, I don't know. It, it de- It would have to depend on what's happening at that moment. But, you know, I was so indoctrinated into that life at some point, um, it's who I was.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Sounds a bit like a cult in a way.
6. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. It, it's cult-like, I guess, you know, in a way. I mean, we didn't do silly things, you know? (laughs) We wouldn't have rituals and ceremonies other than that-
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  It sounds like ƒh-
8. MFMichael Franzese
  ... that one, yeah.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
10. MFMichael Franzese
  Other than that one-
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Sounds like ƒh-
12. MFMichael Franzese
  ... nothing after that, but...
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  What did it
40:56 – 43:15
The Mafia’s Manipulation Tactics
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  teach you about people skills? Because you're around these bosses, these very talented men. You're seeing how they conduct themselves, do business, influence people, win friends. What, what did that phase of your life teach you about how to be a motivator/manipulator of people?
2. MFMichael Franzese
  It taught me well.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
4. MFMichael Franzese
  I, I, I think I got a... You know, there's kinda two levels in that life. You're either a racketeer or you're a gangster.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  What's the difference?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  I'll tell you the difference.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
8. MFMichael Franzese
  A gangster is a guy that really doesn't know how to use that life to benefit him in business. So he's more of a, uh, I don't wanna say tough guy, I don't wanna say the term, but he's more of a guy that, "Hey, we had something done. This is the guy. Send him out, let him do it." 'Cause you gotta earn your keep in that life. We, in the Colombo family, had 115 made guys at that time. Out of the 115, 20 of us were really earning money and supporting the family in some way and, and really elevating the family. We were racketeers. Now, a gangster could never really be a racketeer, he just doesn't know how. But a racketeer has to be a gangster also, 'cause you're gonna be called upon. Not as much as this guy, but when you're called upon, you gotta do it. So you know, I was more of a racketeer, and as a result of that, I was constantly in business disputes and sitting down with other guys. And you have to learn, you know, how to negotiate. I mean, I learned the art of negotiation at these sit-downs.... you know, learned how to try to, you know, really before I walked into a meeting with somebody, number one, try to know the personality of that person, know if there's a fallback position if I'm not winning, what I'll accept. And so I had to prepare myself for these meetings 'cause unprepared, you know, they'll chew you up, 'cause a lot of these old timers were very skillful. And believe me, you could be 100% right and end up wrong, and they'll put you in a, in a trap. So you really had to know what you were doing. And so my people skills in that regard, as far as negotiating and identifying a true leader, um, were really honed to a, a, a, a, you know, a high degree because I came out on top many, many times.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  What are
43:15 – 44:58
Business Lessons from the Mafia
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  the, the principles of, in your view, of a good sell or a good negotiation? Are there, and are, are there small things that you saw within the mafia that you probably don't see in the outside world? One of them you've already named, which is this idea of being really punctual.
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Mm-hmm.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  But what... And it seems like respect is at the very heart of-
4. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... what, what you said. What, what are those s- small things that are important for a negotiation or a sales pitch in your view?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  Well, understand, you know, again, you know, I always learned this, that sometimes you can walk into a room and be the smartest person in the room. You don't want anybody to know that. And you want people to just talk. Let, you know, just talk. Give them an opening, give them... Throw them a bone so that they're gonna come back and talk and, and learn the personality of this person. Learn... You can learn so much from people just when they talk and you keep quiet. There's other times when you're not the smartest person in the room. And by keeping quiet, nobody knows that. "What is this guy thinking? What, you know, what is this thinking?" It's a tremendous technique. And in that life, it was extremely valuable for me. I was always the last guy to talk. "Go on, tell me everything," you know. And, uh, it helped me kind of master that art in that life because you had... these guys, never sell them short. There were some very smart guys there. If they weren't in that life, they would have been successful somewhere else, you know. Very smart. So you had to really know what you were doing because the consequences too were very severe. I mean, you could walk in there and lose your shirt, you know, because the boss could say, "Hey, not only are you gonna pay this guy this, but you're gonna pay the family everything else. And everything you got, I'm taking away from you right now." Those were... That's how severe it could have been. So you, yes, you really had to know. I'll tell you this. When I... I think you know I was in the gas business, right? The gas tax
44:58 – 52:02
How I Made Millions with the Gas Station Scam
1. MFMichael Franzese
  business. I was defrauding the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline. It was probably the biggest scam since the days of Prohibition.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Explain to me how that was even possible.
3. MFMichael Franzese
  The law at that time is that the gas tax was collected by a wholesaler. You had to be a licensed wholesaler. But the government really wasn't up to their collection process. So to make a long story h- short, I had 18 companies that were licensed to collect the tax on every gallon of gasoline. They were all shell companies, every single one of them, all right? And, uh, they were all Panamanian companies. Why Panama? Because Panama, a corporation in Panama had bearer stock. You give me the stock, I'm the owner. I give it to you, you're the owner. So we didn't have to give a lot of information. The only reason I needed the company was, number one, to get the lice- to get the license, and number two, to open a bank account. I didn't need brick and mortar, I didn't need anything, right? That's all I needed. So, so now I'm allowed to collect the tax. Well, we had a very sophisticated, um, process or strategy to collect that tax for about 10, 11, sometimes a whole year before the government came down on us 'cause we had to report, we had to pay quarterly and so on and so... They were very slow. They're very slow. So we, we had a way to keep them at bay for almost a year. When they finally came down on us, we closed the office, closed the, uh, the, (laughs) that license, and just started operating under a new license. Well, I ran this for seven years.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  So just to summarize, so I'll make sure I'm clear, you had the supply chain coming from Panama. That was where the gas came-
5. MFMichael Franzese
  No, we had the, we had, the companies were Panamanian companies.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Ah, okay.
7. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Right. So where was the gas coming from?
9. MFMichael Franzese
  Gas was coming from... We were buying barges as they came over from the Middle East and we were buying gas from all the major oil companies.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Ah, okay. So you bought the gas with a shell company in Panama-
11. MFMichael Franzese
  Correct.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... which allowed you to get the wholesale license so that you could collect the tax from the retailer-
13. MFMichael Franzese
  Correct.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... of the gas, and then you would sell it to the retailer, and then when the gov- government come for their tax maybe 12 months later, you say, "Sorry, the company's gone bust," and you shut it down.
15. MFMichael Franzese
  We wouldn't say anything. The door would be closed. There, there was, be nobody there. They wouldn't even know where to go.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Ah, okay. So-
17. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  So were, were you then giving the retailer a discount on the gas?
19. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  Okay.
21. MFMichael Franzese
  You know, I, I... The way I'd do it, let's say, you know, when I had 350 gas stations I either owned or operated, 300 plus gas stations we either owned or operated, leased, whatever. But, uh, if we would go buy a gas station on a corner where there were four stations, and you have a lot of that in New York, we would buy one station, lease one station. Could have been a Mobil, any brand, didn't matter. And we'd get the other three station owners and say, "Come here, we want to talk to you. Here's the deal. Okay? Whatever you sell the gas for, we're gonna be two cents cheaper. If you go down five, we'll go down 10. If you go down 10, we'll go down 20." 'Cause I had 40 cents to work with in most cases. I said, "We'll put you out of business. So just stay, understand that we're gonna stay two cents... We don't wanna kill you, we want you to earn money, but we're always gonna be cheaper." Before you know it, they're buying all their gas from us anyway. (laughs) So we were selling all, all four stations were, you know, being supplied by us. Because look, the gas station owner, if you're saving them five, six, seven cents a gallon, 10 cents a gallon, it's a lot of money-
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
23. MFMichael Franzese
  ... you know if they're doing volume too. So we were selling gas to everybody, branded stations, unbranded stations, didn't matter. And the government just could not keep up with us. So when I realized what I had, you'll appreciate this, I went to my boss at the time, Carmine Persico. He's passed on now. And we called him Junior. And I said, "Junior, here's the deal. I'm gonna show you more money than you've ever seen in your life," 'cause I realized what I had, right?He says, "We don't do drugs." I says, "It's not drugs. You know I hate drugs. It has nothing to do with drugs." He says, "What is it?" I said, "It's gas." "Gas?" I said, "Yes, tax money." "Oh, okay. That's clean." I said, "But here's the deal. Everybody's gonna want a piece of this. Everybody on the street, when they realize what we, what I have here, they're gonna want a piece of it. So here's what you have to do. You have to make me win every argument." I said, "Anytime I sit down, doesn't matter what family it is," I said, "Don't play politics, you know?" I says, "I'm, I'm not telling you as the boss what to do, but I'm telling you I'm gonna make you wealthy." So I said, "Make me win every argument. I'm gonna be right anyway. I'll come in right." I said, "So make, make me win. I'll make you more money than you ever seen before." I'll never forget, Steve, he just slipped back like this. He said, "Show me." "Okay." I was bringing in two million dollars a week, it built up to. That buys a lot of loyalty and a lot of wins on the street, because I was constantly sitting down with people. They wanted a piece, wanted this, wanted that. Then if somebody wasn't ... I wasn't the only guy in the business. We just did it, did it better than anybody else. But if somebody wanted to buy gas from us, I'd say, "Okay, but you gotta pay. If you don't pay, it's gonna be a problem." So when people didn't pay, we had a sit-down. I always won, you know? So it was, uh, I mean, look, it, it elevated ... I became a captain as a result of the money that I was turning in, and I had a big crew under me. You know, I, I was living the lifestyle, man. I had a jet plane, I had a helicopter, I had a lot. We were bringing in seven, eight, nine, ten million dollars a week at times. It was that big. Selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month, taking down 30, 40 cents a gallon, whatever we decided to charge somebody at that time. It was a lot of money.
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  That's a lot of money. I think I'm in the wrong business. (laughs)
25. MFMichael Franzese
  (laughs) No, you're in the right business ...
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
27. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah, yeah. From what I understand, you're doing pretty well, so it's okay.
28. SBSteven Bartlett
  But seven or eight, seven to ten million a week? I'm not doing that well. (laughs)
29. MFMichael Franzese
  (laughs) Well ...
30. SBSteven Bartlett
  Does this little gas leak hole still work?
52:02 – 53:43
Swearing the Mafia Oath
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... You become a made man. You have to swear an oath to the mafia.
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  What is that oath that you swear?
4. MFMichael Franzese
  Well, for me, it was Halloween night 1975 when I took the oath. It was me and five other guys, uh, that night. And you don't have any preparation. They just tell you, "Wear a suit," and then all of a sudden that night, it happens. You kind of get maybe a little inkling, because you're waiting for this to happen. And we walked into a room individually. It was late at night, a very solemn ceremony, a dimly lit room. The, uh, boss was seated at the head of, like, a horseshoe configuration. The underboss and the consigliere were to his left and right, and all the caporegimes were alongside of them. Soldiers can't attend this, only the capos, only the, the brass of the family. I walked down the aisle, stood in front of the boss. I held out my hand. He took a knife, cut my finger. Some blood dropped on the floor. This is a blood oath. I cupped my hands. He took a picture of a saint, Catholic altar card, put it in my hands, lit it aflame. Didn't hurt; it burnt quickly. It was merely symbolic. And he said, "Tonight, Michael Franzese, you are born again into a new life, into Cosa Nostra, this thing of ours. Violate what you know about this life, betray your brothers, and you will die and burn in hell like the saint that's burning in your hands. Do you accept?" "Yes, I do." And that's how it started. That's the oath. Very fast, very simple, very serious.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Were you scared when you walked into that room?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  I was exhilarated that night. I was like, "Wow, finally. You know, I'm gonna have this even closer bond with my dad. Uh, I've worked for this now for two and a half years." Um, I was exhilarated that night. I mean, hones- ... and so were the other five guys, everybody.
53:43 – 55:18
Why I Joined the Mafia
1. MFMichael Franzese
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Why, when you look back with the wisdom that you have now, as to why you joined that life ... I know your father was a, a catalyst in some respects, but I imagine it's probably a bit more complex than it just being about your father. What were your genuine motivations?
3. MFMichael Franzese
  You know, quite honestly, uh, I didn't aspire to be a mob guy. I mean, even though I admired my dad, it's not the path that I wanted to take. It didn't ... I didn't say, "Wow, I wish I could do that." You know, and it's kind of odd because a lot of the young people I speak to now, a lot of these gangbangers, uh, uh, going into juvenile halls and prisons, and they say the same thing. "Wow, you guys had all the money. You had all the power. You had the cars. You had the women." And it turned them on, and that's what wanted ... They wanted to be that guy. I didn't have that feeling. Maybe 'cause I grew up with it, maybe 'cause that was my dad.Um, you know, we didn't grow up poor, weren't wealthy, but we didn't really, you know, want for anything. We, we had a roof over our head. We went on a vacation every once in a while. So we didn't have, struggle it financially in that regard. So I mean, it's not something I aspired to be. It was strictly, strictly to help my dad.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Really?
5. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. It really was. Then of course, as I get into the process, well now, I want to complete it. I want to become that made guy. I'm working for it. You know, it's like anything I do, you know? I want to complete it. I want to succeed. So that became part of it. And then, you know, because watching my dad is one thing, going through the process, understanding what the life is about, being around the other guys that were mentoring me, now I, I started to really get an understanding of the life.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Dare I say,
55:18 – 57:52
Mafia Members: Killers vs Rule Followers
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  you sound like you were maybe slightly different in, in a sense of your intentions of being there were slightly different from those around you in that life. What, w- what were everybody else's intentions? What were their motivations? And I was wondering as you were speaking about the different personality types you must have encountered in that life, I've heard you say before there are two types of people in the mafia: people who enjoyed killing and people who were just following orders. Which camp were you in?
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Oh, definitely following orders. I mean, I was ... Listen, there was some, you know, I can mention his name because everybody knows it, this and that. But there's a guy by the name of Roy DeMeo. I don't know if you ever heard that name. Roy was, uh, you know, it, it was ... He was a serial killer, no question. But what I say about Roy, and I knew him, Roy would have been a serial killer if he wasn't in the mafia. The mafia didn't make him a serial killer. That's just who he was. I mean, he enjoyed it, you know? And there were guys like that.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  He enjoyed it?
4. MFMichael Franzese
  I think so. Had to. 'Cause how, how could you do that? I mean ...
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  What did he do?
6. MFMichael Franzese
  Couple hundred murders. And if you, you know, he had a place called The Gemini Club. It was, uh, uh, it, it was a club that he had. And they described the way they would kill, 'cause some people became informants that were involved with him, and I mean, killing people, chopping up bodies, just, I mean, it, it was gruesome, you know? I mean, you're a different kind of human being if you're doing stuff like that, you know?
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  Have you, have you ... Your experience in the mafia must have taught you something about the nature of humans and what we're capable of. Because we all walk around thinking that we're, quote unquote, "good," and that we are just ... We were born with this perfect sort of moral compass and that none of us are capable of doing violent things or morbid things or amoral things. But you must have a slightly different perspective on that.
8. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. Not true at all. I think just the opposite. I think we all have something in us that, you know, if we're triggered in the right way, we can, we can do damage. Let's put it that way. I've seen that my whole life. Sometimes for the right reasons and sometimes for the wrong reasons. You know, obviously if you're in defense of your family, of your friend, I mean, you, you might do some horrible things to, to somebody that's trying to victimize them. Uh, but there's others that, you know, just do it because they can do it. And I've seen that. I've seen both.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Do you think things like murder are part of human
57:52 – 59:51
Do We All Have the Instinct to Kill?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  nature?
2. MFMichael Franzese
  Yes. Absolutely. I do believe that. I mean, you know, and I want to be clear on this, be careful on this. Murder is murder. Murder is murder. The reason you commit it is another thing. But listen, you go into the military, you're killing people on the other side. Why are you doing it? Well, I'm defending my country. And I get it, and I understand that, and that's a noble thing. Supposedly, right?
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
4. MFMichael Franzese
  But you're still committing murderers. You still have it in you. You could have been the nicest guy in the world, okay? You could have been the most laid back, soft person in the world. You go into the military, they're gonna teach you to be a killer, and you're gonna do it. So you have it in you, you know? Um, it's a tough thing, but I think, I think everybody has the capability of doing something, doing damage. Let's, let me use that word.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  How have you been affected by what you saw? Because I can imagine your eyes have seem- seen some things that mine absolutely haven't, and it's, it's impossible to think that one can just shake that off.
6. MFMichael Franzese
  You know, I've, I've been blessed in a way that ... And sometimes, you know, my wife gets upset with me, that I can compartmentalize things pretty well, and I think it's the result of being in that life. And I, I, I think this is what triggered it for me, Steve. I had a, a, a fella, when my dad went to prison, he was, uh, they called him Artie the Animal. He's a real tough guy, right? He's a Jewish guy. But I loved him. He was like a second dad for me. My father and him were very close. When my dad went away, he kind of, again, took not only me, but my whole family. Very close with his family. He had younger kids. His, his wife was, was wonderful. And, um, he got murdered. I was young. I was 17, 18 years old. And he got murdered. No, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I made a mistake. It was when my dad first went into prison, so I was 19 or 20.
59:51 – 1:05:20
How Seeing a Dead Body Changed My Life Forever
1. MFMichael Franzese
  And, um, I walked into the funeral parlor, I'll never forget, and his sister came up to me and hugged me. And she said, "You need to come with me. You need to look at what these animals did to my brother." I'll never forget the words. The coffin was closed. And she opened the coffin, and he was unrecognizable. This is a guy I loved. I, I didn't faint, but it got to me. It really got to me. I'd never seen anything like that before in reality, especially somebody I really cared for, really loved. And it did have an impact on me. There's no question.But somehow, I was able to get beyond that as a young person. Now, I don't know what that says about me in that regard. Um, and I'm able to do that about certain things, you know, even if it's wrong. I, I, this was wrong, but I, I can't sit on it. I can't let it get to me. I can't, I gotta overcome it. And I think that was a, that was a defining moment in my life to be able to move that and then continue to move into the life 'cause I said, "This is part of it."
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Do you regret that she did that, that she showed you him?
3. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. I didn't need to see that, I didn't need to. Um, she did it out of love. She didn't do it out of... 'cause she loved me and she was, her sister, devastated. And I think she felt close enough to me because she knew how I cared about Artie and how he cared about me. So she just, uh, it was grief. No other reason, you know? It was a sincere, a sincere move that she did. But I didn't need to see that. And you know what? There's times when I have visions of that. Um, my wife, you know, I have a tendency in my sleep, things don't come outta me when I'm awake (laughs) but when I'm in my sleep she says, you know, "You had a fight last night. Who was it with?" And it happens fairly often, you know, more than I think a normal person. Um, but I don't remember. I wake up, hey, I'm fine.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  You see him in your sleep?
5. MFMichael Franzese
  I have. Yeah, I have. Um, again, that was like, boom, you know, when something just impacts you in a way like, whoa.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Well, I, uh, compartmentalizing sounds like a good short term strategy to, to things-
7. MFMichael Franzese
  Mm-hmm.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... to grief, to, um, traumatic events and things. But I, I don't know if I believe one can truly compartmentalize something forever without it rearing its, its head some- somewhere else. I almost see it like, kinda like Whac-A-Mole.
9. MFMichael Franzese
  Mm-hmm.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Like, I might be able to shut it down in this part of my life, but it's probably gonna emerge over here in some other way.
11. MFMichael Franzese
  I agree with that. I, I think when something is so severe even at that moment, I think it could, it could last and come out in different ways. You know, um, you know, uh, I mean, another thing, I mean, there was a very dear friend of mine, you know, he was like a brother to me, and he ended up getting killed. And that had an impact on me, uh, because I honestly tried to save him and I couldn't. Yeah, 'cause he, he, without getting into the details, he did something that was total violation of our life and, uh, he, he lost his life as a result of it. And, uh, I couldn't save him. I tried, but I couldn't.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  He was in the mafia?
13. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  So there was a sit down, I'm presuming, and-
15. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... it was decided that he wasn't gonna live?
17. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  Were you in the sit down?
19. MFMichael Franzese
  I was in, I was in a number of sit downs in my life, you know. Um, yeah, it was, uh, it was a tough one. You know, one of the horrors of that life is, you know, you, you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into that room, you don't walk out again. And throughout the course of my life, I've seen that, obviously. I've seen guys that, you know, are here one day, gone the next. And it's, uh, it's, it's one of the evil parts of that life. There's no question. And I saw guys that, that died for the wrong reasons. You know, it's like anything else, you know. In, in the corporate world, you have greed and you have backstabbing and all of that, but you lose your job, you lose some money, you move on. In that life, the consequences are severe. So, um-
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  I was thinking about my best friend and I was thinking if my best friend did something which was disrespectful in some way, I don't know, he stole something, maybe he, something even more extreme, he slept with my sister, you know, I wouldn't want him to die.
21. MFMichael Franzese
  No. You wouldn't want him to die.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  But in the life you came from, he would, he would die?
23. MFMichael Franzese
  It's, uh, it's a po- it, it's the most severe policy. I'll, I'll tell you this. I'll tell you how severe it is. There's another guy, you know, and I don't have to mention his name, it was two brothers that were made guys in that life and I was friendly with them both. One of them happened to be in our family, the other one was with another family. But I drove him home to Brooklyn one day and, um, he got out of the car and I said, "I'll see you." He said, "No, wait, wait. Don't leave yet." I said, "Okay." I waited. So he opened the door of his house and he looked in and like, he was looking
1:05:20 – 1:09:31
“He Had To Kill His Father”
1. MFMichael Franzese
  at something. I wasn't really paying attention, but then I seen him close the door and come out. And he got in the car and I said, "What happened?" He said, "Well, nobody's home." I go, "But that's your house. What do you mean nobody's home? Why doesn't somebody have to be home?" And he said, "Well, I can't go in my house." I said, "What do you mean?" Well, his father had been caught fooling around with somebody else's wife or daughter at the time and him and his brother were given the contract and he killed his father. And he said, "Anytime I walk in the house, if I'm alone, the ghost of my father is in there and haunts me." So he said, "I haven't been in my house alone in 20 some odd years."
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  He killed his own father?
3. MFMichael Franzese
  Yeah. Now, uh, I, I wanna, you know, I don't wanna... how should I say this? I don't want to give the impression that that's what the life is all about every day and all the time. It's not. But there are extreme cases where these things happen and that's what makes it a bad life. And I call it an evil life because families are destroyed as a result of this. I don't know any family of any made member of that life that hasn't been devastated, including my own. Now, not my wife and kids. I've been able to spare them of that, praise God, but my mother, 33 years without a husband.When she passed away in 2012, her relationship with my dad, ugly, because she blamed him for everything that went wrong, rightfully so. He was gone only 40 years, my dad did, on that 50. So what went wrong? My sister, 27 years old, dies of an over- overdose of drugs. My brother, 25 years a drug addict. Steve, you don't know what I had to do to save his life so many times. The kid, you know, drug addicted. Dr- if he wasn't my f- my brother and my father's son, he would have never made it. My younger sister, 40 years old, she died young. She was never mentally stable. The whole family was devastated. And my father ended up doing 40 years out of 50 in that prison. He was out a few times on parole, but 40 years out of the 50. His life destroyed, basically. So any lifestyle that does that to a family is a bad life. It's a evil life. And I don't know any family of any member that hasn't met a similar fate in some way, shape, or form. So, you know, I came to that conclusion. I said, "This is f- this is bad." And what got me out of it, you know, I met a young girl that I fell in love with. She was 20 years old, my wife. We're married 39 years this week. Um, I said, "Am I gonna do this to this girl and marry her? I'm a major target. It does n- I'm never gonna get away with this, long term." I had huge bulls eye on my back. I went to trial five times. I had seven indictments, arrested 18 times. They were never gonna let me go. They had a 14-agency task force that was assigned to put me in jail forever. It's all documented. So I said, "What am I gonna do? I'm gonna marry this girl, in, in two years I'll be in jail for the rest of my life." So that's when started to give me, uh, you know, "I gotta get away from this."
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Do you think you would've, um, gotten away from it just with the well of love alone?
5. MFMichael Franzese
  No. If it was, I, I, you know, I really thought about this myself so often. You know, I had an incident where my dad actually betrayed me, and it was devastating to me. And it made me think, I said, "If this life can separate father and son, what do I really have here? What do we really have? What are we doing here?" And I didn't meet my wife until two years after that. Um, but I, I don't... if that act of betrayal didn't happen from my dad, I don't know if I would've ever left the life, because the, the pull he had on me was very strong. I don't know if I would've walked away. But I think that had to happen to kind of separate me from him and really make me understand that this life, if it could separate us, what is it?
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  What was the betrayal?
7. MFMichael Franzese
  I was called into a room one night. It was over money,
1:09:31 – 1:14:25
The Moment My Dad Betrayed Me
1. MFMichael Franzese
  and, uh, uh, there was an article that came out in, in, uh, a Long Island newspaper, I think it was the Long Island Press, out of circulation now, that said I was becoming powerful enough to take over, to start my own family, break away from the Colombo's, start my own family. No truth in it whatsoever. Some reporter just made (laughs) it up, 'cause I was doing well. I had a jet plane, a helicopter, big crew. I was in the media. Uh-
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  What was your net worth and how old were you?
3. MFMichael Franzese
  I was, uh... well, when I walked away from that life, I was 34. This was, I was around 30 at that point, 29, 30.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Do you know what your net worth was?
5. MFMichael Franzese
  I have no idea because I had a lot of cash. (laughs)
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
7. MFMichael Franzese
  You know? It was in the millions for sure. It was a lot of money. And then it was saying that I, that I had defrauded the government out of two billion dollars. It wasn't two billion. It was a lot of money, but, you know, they always, they always exaggerate. So now guys on the street are starting to get a little... two billion dollars. I was getting family. I had the Russians, I had organized the Russians with me. We had a very strong crew and a lot of guys around me. So I think to... they walked me into that room one night, and my father was in there before me. And I mean, I could... this story can take an hour, so I don't wanna hold you up with it. But, um, the bottom line is I, I, I talked my sense into them and said basically, "I'm bringing you all this money and I'm being put on the spot for this?" I said, "I'm taking all the risk. Nobody else is in jeopardy here. These are my guys. Nobody knows who you are." I purposely kept my guys away from them so that if my thing ever blew up, we wouldn't be hurting any of the guys in the family. "And," I said, "and now I'm being questioned?" I said, "They write an article about me, all of a sudden it's true. They write about everybody else, it's false." So I started to get angry with the boss. You don't do that, you know. You know the, the... uh, you never outshine the master. You know that principle. Not in that life for sure. So I calm myself down and I said, "Okay, I'm walking outta here. Everything's gonna be all right." Then we finished up and, you know, we have a glass of wine, everything's great, you know, the usual thing. And then it wasn't until I got in the car with the guy that drove me there, who I knew my whole life. He was a captain along with me. And I got in the car and I got very upset with him. I said, "You knew... you didn't tell me what was happening here tonight. I'm walking into a trap and you don't prepare me, you don't say anything to me." You know what he said, Steve? He looked at me and he said, "If it was the other way around, would you have told me?" And I, I said... he was a smart guy, and I said, "No." He said, "Michael, you know the life as well as anybody. You grew up around the best." I said, "Okay." I get out of the, I go to get out of the car and he grabs my hand, my arm, and he says, "I'm gonna tell you something. You're not gonna want to hear this, but it's the truth. I am your friend." He said, "We live by a certain code, but I am your friend." I said, "What?" "Your father was in there before you tonight. He didn't help you one bit, he hurt you in there tonight." And I was, like, devastated. I said, "Well, what do you mean?" And I said it to myself, I didn't ask him. I couldn't even answer him. I wa- I was starting... I got out of the car and was walking towards my car and I started to think. Knowing my father so well, I said, "I know what he did.""Hey, my son is stealing. He does everything. I'm on parole. I don't know what he's doing. I have no idea." He just kinda took the high road and left me on my own instead of standing up for me, because we were both captains at that point. My dad could've forcefully said, "How dare you? My son would never rob me." And he could've really came out, but he didn't. Now, I was really on my own, and that could've been dangerous, you know? Ag- again, the traps that they set up for you during that time, because believe me, they would've loved to take over my business and just, you know... and you gotta watch for that. So the traps that were set up, you know, fortunately, I was able to navigate 'em. But, uh, it really was devastating because I said, "H- how could that happen?"
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  And you were running multiple businesses at that point, not just the, the fuel business?
9. MFMichael Franzese
  No, I had l- I had, uh, well, you know, I had legitimate busi- I had two, uh, automobile agencies. I had a Mazda dealership, very successful. I had a Chevrolet dealership, successful. I had a leasing company. I had a film production company at that time. I was making movies. I made about 30 films during that time. All, uh, horror exploitation films. They were big at that point. I had a number of restaurants that I was involved in. Um, I had a video shop when video, you know, cassettes and everything were big. Didn't compete with Blockbuster, but we had a good neighborhood spot, you know? So I had a lot of things going on. I had a lot of money on the street. I was lending money out to, uh, to, uh, a lot of my own guys. I'd lend it to them. They, in turn, would lend it to somebody else, you know? So I mean, I had, I had, I had a lot going on.

Episode duration: 2:08:41

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Intro

Who is Michael Franzese?

Inside a Mafia Family

My Dad Was A Mafia UnderBoss

How the Mafia Family is Structured

The History of the Colombo Family

Mafia Family Wars

What Happens at a Mafia Sitdown?

How the Mafia Decides Who Lives and Who Dies

Franzese’s Dad In Prison

Joining the Mafia: How Michael Franzese Became a Made Man

My Dad Was Involved in 35 Murders

How Does The Mafia Kill People?

Is There Mafia Training? What It Takes to Join

Choosing The Mafia Over My Loved Ones

The Mafia’s Manipulation Tactics

Business Lessons from the Mafia

How I Made Millions with the Gas Station Scam

Swearing the Mafia Oath

Why I Joined the Mafia

Mafia Members: Killers vs Rule Followers

Do We All Have the Instinct to Kill?

How Seeing a Dead Body Changed My Life Forever

“He Had To Kill His Father”

The Moment My Dad Betrayed Me

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