Mark Cuban: The Brutal Truth About The Next Market Crash!

1. 0:00 – 2:10

   Intro

   1. MCMark Cuban0:00

      AI is not smart. AI doesn't know the consequences of its actions. It doesn't have inherent ethics. Those companies keep on borrowing and spending more money in order to power all of the AI, but they're borrowing more than they're making. We literally could get into a debt bubble.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:15

      You do think we're in a bubble, don't you?

   3. MCMark Cuban0:16

      Yeah. What causes it to burst? I'll tell you this.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:19

      So what are the most sort of foundational things I need to understand the Mark Cuban that we've all grown to love from the Shark Tank and the businesses and the Dallas Mavs and-

   5. MCMark Cuban0:26

      So business was an area where I, I was always ahead of the curve, no matter how old I was. Growing up, I went door to door in the neighborhood selling garbage bags, and that probably catapulted me more than anything, 'cause if you can go door to door and sell, you can do anything. Like on Shark Tank, when somebody walked in and told me about their company, I knew exactly how I would sell it.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:43

      What are the sort of consistent themes amongst all people that become an entrepreneur?

   7. MCMark Cuban0:47

      Oh, you've gotta find one thing and be great at it, and then find a way to turn that something into a business. Next, if you're gonna do anything with technology, media, whatever it may be, you better be ahead of the curve, because business is like a sport. If you don't keep on getting better and improving your game, you're not gonna be able to compete. But what we don't talk about is, what do I suck at? [beep] suck at it. And one of the biggest mistakes I made was I was a jerk. I would yell. I would scream. And I found that I got a lot further by being nice than by being a dick.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:16

      The last thing I wanted to ask you about is of your more recent decisions around leaving Shark Tank, selling the Mavs.

   9. MCMark Cuban1:20

      I'll tell you this. That tells you all you need to know.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:24

       We've got some wonderful photos here that we-

   11. MCMark Cuban1:26

       Yeah, that's my brother, Brian.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:28

       Brian, he wrote you a letter.

   13. MCMark Cuban1:30

       Oh my God, I'll probably start crying. [gentle music]

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:42

       Here is a strange fact. Most of the people watching this right now, about 58% of you, aren't yet subscribed to this channel. Statistically, that is probably you. So could I ask you a small favor? If this channel has ever given you any value at all, please could you do me a favor and hit the subscribe button? It costs nothing. It helps us more than you could know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the more we can invest in the guests and the production. So thank you so much, and I hope you enjoy this episode. [upbeat music]

2. 2:10 – 3:03

   Why Being Adaptable Matters

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:10

      Mark, there are so many things happening in the world at the moment, and just specifically focusing in on business and technology and AI, one of the remarkable things I often reference about you is, in spite of your success, you continue to self-educate, and I've watched this in you over multiple cycles of technology. When crypto became a thing, when AI showed up, one of the first things I see on my timeline is Mark Cuban-

   2. MCMark Cuban2:37

      [laughs]

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:37

      ... going back to school.

   4. MCMark Cuban2:39

      Yeah, for sure.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:39

      What, what, what's going on in your head at the moment?

   6. MCMark Cuban2:42

      To me, business is like a sport, and if you don't keep on getting better and improving your game, you're not gonna be able to compete. And if you're gonna do anything with technology, media, whatever it may be, you better be ahead of the curve. Otherwise, there's gonna be some kid in high school somewhere who's gonna kick your ass.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett2:59

      Mm.

   8. MCMark Cuban2:59

      And I wanna be the one doing the ass-kicking instead of getting their ass kicked.

3. 3:03 – 4:34

   My Upbringing

   1. SBSteven Bartlett3:03

      What are the most sort of foundational things I need to know about your earliest context to understand the Mark Cuban that we've all grown to love and know from the s- Shark Tank and the businesses-

   2. MCMark Cuban3:12

      Oh, my goodness

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:12

      ... and the Dallas Mavs and-

   4. MCMark Cuban3:13

      I think I just grew up in a regular family and just had the piss and vinegar in me to always want to compete, like I said, and I was able to turn an idea into a business and be successful.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:25

      And you had very, um, formative parents by the sounds of things?

   6. MCMark Cuban3:28

      Yeah. I mean, I had great upbringing. My dad did upholstery on cars, pure blue collar. My mom did odd jobs.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett3:35

      We've got some-

   8. MCMark Cuban3:35

      Yeah, that's my grandparents and my mom. My mom was only 20 when I was born.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett3:39

      We've got some more wonderful photos here.

   10. MCMark Cuban3:41

       That's my brother, Brian, who's the middle brother, and my dad. That's when we lived on Mel- Meadowlark in Pittsburgh.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett3:47

       Your father never made more than $40,000 in his life.

   12. MCMark Cuban3:49

       Never. No. He would be up at work, um, and gone by the time we were leaving for school. He actually lost an eye when he was doing upholstery. There was a staple that broke when I was in sixth grade, but he just always was a grinder and just... Yeah, amazing. I miss him.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett4:07

       You miss him?

   14. MCMark Cuban4:07

       I miss them both. Everywhere we went, he always had friends, and if he didn't know people there, they quickly became his friends, and I think that set a great example for my brothers and I more than anything.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett4:18

       What are some of those sort of high-level lessons that you always reference come from him?

   16. MCMark Cuban4:22

       You know, he would say things that, like, "You don't live in the world you were born into." You know, "Today's the youngest you will ever be," that type of thing where, you know, no matter what hustle I had going on, he was always supportive. Always.

4. 4:34 – 6:12

   My First Business: Selling Garbage Bags at 12

   1. SBSteven Bartlett4:34

      And what did you think you were going to be when you were older at that age in those photos?

   2. MCMark Cuban4:38

      Oh, a baseball player. [laughs]

   3. SBSteven Bartlett4:39

      Really?

   4. MCMark Cuban4:40

      Yeah, I was good, but not good enough. Um, but then after that it became apparent that I was gonna be a business guy.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett4:47

      I mean, I think it was apparent from your, your first-

   6. MCMark Cuban4:49

      Yeah, selling baseball cards when I was a kid?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett4:51

      Yeah.

   8. MCMark Cuban4:51

      Oh my God, you got some good ones.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:53

      I mean, you also started selling some of these I hear as well.

   10. MCMark Cuban4:55

       Yeah, so what I would do is... [laughs] Yeah. So when I was, like, 9 or 10 years old, I would go to the local pharmacy, and they would sell packs of baseball cards, and I would buy a bunch of them, um, with my allowance, and then I would repackage them using, like, the comics and everything from the paper. "Buy these for, like, I... Cost me, like, a quarter. Buy them for 50 cents. You're guaranteed to get a Pittsburgh Pirate-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:17

       [laughs]

   12. MCMark Cuban5:18

       ... like Roberto Clemente or Willie Stargell." And I would sell them and make money. Then I'd go and turn it around and make more. And that literally was my first start in hustling. And then one day my dad was playing poker with his buddies. You know, they'd rotate to each other's houses, and he- they were at our house, and I went in there to grab a donut, and I was like, "Dad, I want a new pair of basketball shoes." And he looks at my feet and he goes, "Those shoes work. When you have a job, you can buy whatever you want." I'm like, "Dad, I'm 12." And one of his buddies, who had to have been drunk, was like, "Hey, I got something you can sell. I've got boxes of garbage bags that I'll sell to you for $3, and you can sell them for six." And literally, I went door to door in the neighborhood and I'd be like Hi, I'm your neighbor, Mark. Do you use garbage bags? Easy sell, right? And that probably catapulted me more than anything 'cause if you can go door to door and sell, you can do anything.

5. 6:12 – 8:28

   How to Become a Great Salesperson

   1. SBSteven Bartlett6:13

      This idea of selling is, um, is sort of very top of mind for you in terms of the, one of the ultimate skills of building-

   2. MCMark Cuban6:18

      Yeah

   3. SBSteven Bartlett6:18

      ... becoming an entrepreneur. And, and I-- it's so funny 'cause I spent a lot of time in call centers when I was younger doing cold calls, but I always say that the best sales experience is door-to-door sales. And-

   4. MCMark Cuban6:27

      Or co- or cold s-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett6:28

      Yeah

   6. MCMark Cuban6:28

      ... call centers, right?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett6:29

      Yeah.

   8. MCMark Cuban6:29

      Every no gets you closer to a yes, right? Just knowing how to deal with people telling you no, and how to deal with objections, and how to respond quickly.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett6:37

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MCMark Cuban6:37

       It just trains your mind to be quick.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett6:39

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MCMark Cuban6:39

       And once you can sell, I mean, you have a job for life.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett6:43

       Why is selling so important as it relates to becoming an entrepreneur?

   14. MCMark Cuban6:46

       No business has ever succeeded without sales. And if you don't think your product or service is so good that you're dying to sell it, that you think that by talking to somebody about whatever product it is, you're not helping them, right? 'Cause that's the whole point of sales.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett7:02

       Right.

   16. MCMark Cuban7:02

       You know, when you were in that call center, what did you sell?

   17. SBSteven Bartlett7:04

       [chuckles] Everything. Uh, windows, doors, conservatories, double glazing.

   18. MCMark Cuban7:07

       Right. Right. And it was all about helping them, and you'd have the objections, and I'd, I'd go sell it. I was selling magazines door to door. Once you learn how to sell, once you learn how to deal with objections, once you r- your mind is spinning, waiting, and reacting, just like you did in a call center, what can't you sell?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett7:24

       Are there any principles of being a good salesperson? Or even in, you know, on Shark Tank, when you see someone come in and they're great at sales-

   20. MCMark Cuban7:31

       Yeah

   21. SBSteven Bartlett7:31

       ... what are those principles?

   22. MCMark Cuban7:32

       You care. You know your product. You wanna help people. You're not trying to convince them to do something against their interests. You're trying to understand and learn their interests and help them achieve their goals or whatever your product may hap- happen to do. It may be, "Hey, you don't have to go to the store and pick up a bag," or it may be when you're selling something, you know, windows. You know, you don't wanna look through those dirty windows, you know? You know there's a crack, you know your electricity bill is up way too high because of your windows, and we're here to replace them. And for only $17 a month, we'll save you, you know-- it'll more than pay for itself in the electricity bill.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett8:07

       Mm.

   24. MCMark Cuban8:07

       Right?

   25. SBSteven Bartlett8:08

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MCMark Cuban8:08

       Like on Shark Tank, when somebody walked in and told me about their company, I knew exactly how I would sell it or could not sell it.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett8:15

       Mm.

   28. MCMark Cuban8:15

       And once you can do that, you're always gonna be able to get a job. And if you w- are an entrepreneur or wanna be an entrepreneur, and you find something that you love and a product or service you love, then selling it's

6. 8:28 – 11:11

   The Biggest Mistakes Young Entrepreneurs Make

   1. MCMark Cuban8:28

      easy.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett8:28

      You know, oftentimes we hear about people becoming wildly successful billionaires because they came up with some tech idea. It was their first thing, like a Zuckerberg-

   3. MCMark Cuban8:37

      Right

   4. SBSteven Bartlett8:37

      ... and it becomes this huge success, and they're, like, 25.

   5. MCMark Cuban8:39

      Right.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett8:40

      So sometimes when we're, like, 32 [laughs] -

   7. MCMark Cuban8:42

      It's like, missed the boat, right? Yeah. [laughs]

   8. SBSteven Bartlett8:43

      Yeah. We missed the boat. [laughs]

   9. MCMark Cuban8:45

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett8:45

       But then when I read your story, you know, I think you were, like, 31 years old, 32 years old, and your first business had sold for $2 million, which is a-

   11. MCMark Cuban8:52

       Si- well, it sold for, um, five. I netted two.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett8:54

       You netted two. Okay.

   13. MCMark Cuban8:54

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett8:55

       What is the big mi- misconception that, like, young people these days have about what it takes, whether it's in terms of sacrifice or time or patience or compounding skills? Because they are incredibly impatient, I think.

   15. MCMark Cuban9:06

       Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was just as impatient, but I think it really depends on your personal circumstances. Like, I had nothing to lose. I was broke. [both laughing] You know? I had gotten fired from a job, so starting MicroSolutions was an easy choice. [laughs] I, I was living six guys in a three-bedroom apartment, didn't have my own bedroom, so it was like, "Why not?" And I remember being terrified and thinking, "Okay, I've been in business one month. That's a win. Three months, six months, nine months. I have $15,000 in accounts receivable. You know, I'm on my way of moving out of this shithole I live in." So it really depends on your personal circumstances, but I, I, I always tell young entrepreneurs, like, if you're broke and you got nothing to lose, you know, even if you're working a job, like I was working as a bartender and, you know, go out and do what you gotta do and start what you've gotta start. I think one of the big misconceptions is, A, you have to raise money, and B, if you do raise money, hitting big sales numbers is, like, the ultimate end-all be-all, as opposed to being profitable. For MicroSolutions, our entire eight-year existence, we were profitable every single month. I mean, we made sure that we sold enough and kept our costs in line so that I was gonna be able to stay alive and, and keep on moving forward. And I think kids today, they hear the stories about the Zuckerbergs and, you know, Sam Altmans, and it's like billions of dollars by the time you're, you know, 12.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett10:31

       [laughs]

   17. MCMark Cuban10:32

       Um, and they think, "Okay, that's the way I'll do it. They went out to Silicon Valley, and they raised all this money." And they don't even realize that the greatest number of successful people aren't the billionaires, right? It's the people that have made a few million, $5 million, $10 million, 25, 50, $100 million. There's a multiple number of people in that s- those set of circumstances. And I'm not saying it's easy to get there, but it's doable, right? It's not a Silicon Valley dream, it's the American dream, and it's where you are and what you can do and what skills you have to accomplish it that makes the difference when you get started.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett11:10

       What are--

7. 11:11 – 13:32

   What All Millionaires Have in Common

   1. SBSteven Bartlett11:11

      If I'm trying to become a millionaire, let's say-

   2. MCMark Cuban11:12

      Yeah

   3. SBSteven Bartlett11:13

      ... what are the sort of consistent themes amongst all people that become millionaires? 10, you know, a 10 millionaire or 100 millionaire. Are-- Is there, like, certain principles that you're gonna need regardless of what industry-

   4. MCMark Cuban11:24

      Yeah

   5. SBSteven Bartlett11:24

      ... you're playing in?

   6. MCMark Cuban11:25

      Of course.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett11:25

      So we talked about sales being very important.

   8. MCMark Cuban11:27

      Yeah, sales obviously, but, you know, to be a millionaire, I think you've just gotta be really good at something. And then find a way to turn that something into a business. It may be sales, it may be programming, it may be tinkering, it may be drawing, it may be a create, being a creator, whatever it may be, but if you're not good at it, there's no business that you start that's going to make you a millionaire. You know, you gotta be good at something.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett11:54

      This brings me to the, the point about focus. 'Cause lots of entrepreneurs, I'm sure you get this a lot in Shark Tank, but outside of the, the Tank, is they- Think that having three ideas-

   10. MCMark Cuban12:04

       Yeah

   11. SBSteven Bartlett12:04

       ... or three things is increasing their odds.

   12. MCMark Cuban12:07

       Right. No, that's ridiculous. Or they say, um, "I wanna be an entrepreneur. What should I do?"

   13. SBSteven Bartlett12:11

       [laughs]

   14. MCMark Cuban12:11

       Right? "What business should I start?" I'm like, oh my God. No, you've gotta find one thing and be great at it. 'Cause once you're great at something, doors open up wide. Because if it's not your company, then they gotta keep you because you're great. And whoever you compete with in that company, they're looking and saying, "Wow, you know, Steven's great," you know, or, "Mark's great." And then you're like, "I'm great at this. Maybe if I wanna be an entrepreneur, I can start a business about what I'm great at."

   15. SBSteven Bartlett12:40

       What are you most likely to become great at?

   16. MCMark Cuban12:42

       Where you spend your time. Like, people think it's about passion. "Oh, I'm passionate." I was passionate to be a baseball player. Basketball player. Didn't help me at all, right? And I think when you realize where you're spending your time is where you find things that you like to do. And when you like to do something, if it's convertible to a business at all-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett13:04

       Mm

   18. MCMark Cuban13:04

       ... then you keep on getting better and better and better, 'cause it's like anything else, whether it's tech, selling windows, right? Whatever it is, installing windows. When you start realizing you're better than the people around you, your confidence goes up, your willingness to learn more goes up. You wanna find how you can be even better so you could be the absolute best. When those things happen, you can start a company and there's no limit to what you can do.

8. 13:32 – 18:42

   How I Transformed the Dallas Mavericks

   1. SBSteven Bartlett13:32

      I've spent a lot of time recently thinking about, um, long-termism as an idea. And what I mean by this is it's just interesting that when you take a longer term view to almost anything, like you have in many sort of endeavors in your career-

   2. MCMark Cuban13:43

      Yeah. Yeah, right [laughs]

   3. SBSteven Bartlett13:45

      [laughs] I was, yeah, I was thinking about the Mavs there. Um-

   4. MCMark Cuban13:47

      Yep

   5. SBSteven Bartlett13:47

      ... it's, it's interesting how today's decisions change and how that creates a moat.

   6. MCMark Cuban13:51

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett13:52

      Because we, we live in a world, I think, where people plan sometimes in quarterly cycles or sometimes they plan their lives in five-year seasons. But there's a couple of entrepreneurs that I look out into the world and think, oh, they were thinking like 10, 20 years.

   8. MCMark Cuban14:03

      That wasn't me [laughs] .

   9. SBSteven Bartlett14:04

      Oh, really? Yeah.

   10. MCMark Cuban14:05

       No.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett14:06

       What about with, what about with the Mavs, though?

   12. MCMark Cuban14:08

       So when I got into the, with the Mavs, and I bought the Mavs-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett14:11

       Which is a basketball team, for anyone-

   14. MCMark Cuban14:12

       Basketball team, yeah

   15. SBSteven Bartlett14:13

       [laughs]

   16. MCMark Cuban14:13

       In the NBA. And so I was a basketball junkie.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett14:16

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MCMark Cuban14:16

       Right? And I was a season ticket holder and went to a game and I was like, "Wait, maybe I could buy this team," right? 'Cause I just made all this money and I was like, that sounds fun. And I did it not because it was a business, not because I saw this long, you know, horizon of owning the team. I thought, "This could just really be fun. And what could be better than, you know, going and shooting baskets with Dirk Nowitzki or Steve Nash and Michael Finley?" So that's what got me into it. But I didn't even really look at it as a business. I looked at it more as an intellectual endeavor, right? An intellectual challenge. Can I take a team that was awful and got voted the worst professional sports franchise of the previous decade and turn it into a winning team? And that was my goal. And for a long time it was stressful 'cause I'm so competitive. Losing a game, it would take me two days to get over a loss. But then it got to the point, you know, not long before I sold, where in my opinion, it went from being about basketball to being about valuations. And it went from, hey, I love basketball, and this is all about basketball, to the NBA being more about, okay, how much are these teams worth? And the conversations not being about how can we make the game better, but how can we make it more valuable? And to me, that just created more stress, you know, because in order to compete you had to be good at real estate and th- things that had nothing to do with basketball. So I wish I could tell you that I was like, "Okay, I, I have this 25-year horizon," but I can't tell you. I never thought I would sell, but then things changed around me and I guess, you know, having kids changed me as well.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett15:53

       You bought the team for, is it $200 million roughly?

   20. MCMark Cuban15:55

       285, yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett15:55

       And you sold it for-

   22. MCMark Cuban15:57

       4.3

   23. SBSteven Bartlett15:58

       Billion.

   24. MCMark Cuban15:59

       Yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett16:00

       What I find interesting is the point you just made about you'll become great at the things where you wanna spend your time on them. And again, the point you made before that was entrepreneurs when they come to you and say, "I wanna be an entrepreneur," w- and then they go looking for an idea-

   26. MCMark Cuban16:12

       Yeah

   27. SBSteven Bartlett16:12

       ... tend to fail. This is a prime example of you doing exactly what you described, where it was somewhere you wanted to spend your time, which meant that you became good at it.

   28. MCMark Cuban16:19

       I loved it. Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett16:20

       Yeah.

   30. MCMark Cuban16:21

       Yeah.
9. 18:42 – 22:09

   Hate Your Job but Have Little Savings? Do This

   1. SBSteven Bartlett18:42

      You said there, uh, you know, there's many people that are listening that are basically trapped. Well, they feel trapped. They feel stuck in a nine-to-five job. They living paycheck to paycheck. Um, I've been there. You've been there. A- a- what advice would you have for them? They might have $1,000 in savings.

   2. MCMark Cuban18:58

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett18:59

      And they're trying to get out of that situation. Is there some type of li- life raft? Are there principles of how to escape?

   4. MCMark Cuban19:04

      I say this to new college graduates all the time. "Don't go get the best job, 'cause that's the hardest to find. Don't get the perfect job, 'cause those are hard to find. Just get a job, and when you have a job, just work to be really good at it." The second part of that is you have to be brutally honest with yourself, 'cause nobody looks at the job they're doing and says, "I suck," right? They're like, "Oh, I'm great at this. They just don't realize it." No, you have to be honest and talk to people around you, but when you're really good at something, that's when doors do open up, and even in the worst possible job. You know, you could be working at a McDonald's, at a Dairy Queen, but there's a path, you know? And if you understand how to move up that path, even though your life mission isn't to be the manager of, of a McDonald's or a Dairy Queen or whatever, the fact that you can show a future employer that you moved up the line, and then when they ask for a reference, they said, "Steven was incredibly valuable. We're really sorry, you know, that he's leaving. We tried to keep him." That's what you need, and that can happen in two, three years. It's just most people don't wanna think like that. You know, you, you get in your head and you get inside yourself. It's just like, "Oh, this is miserable," yada, yada, yada.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett20:11

      And it's funny looking backwards on journeys like yours, where it's often jobs that most people wouldn't think were glamorous that end up being the most sort of important or formative to your skill stack.

   6. MCMark Cuban20:21

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett20:21

      You were talking about door-to-door salespeople.

   8. MCMark Cuban20:22

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett20:23

      You mentioned, what, Dairy Queens there or, like, McDonald's. I, I think I remember that Jeff Bezos worked at McDonald's, and this is really where he learned about this sort of, like, customer obsession, customer service.

   10. MCMark Cuban20:32

       Yes. You start to understand.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett20:34

       [laughs]

   12. MCMark Cuban20:35

       Yeah, boy, Molly's Pub. [laughs]

   13. SBSteven Bartlett20:37

       [laughs] God.

   14. MCMark Cuban20:38

       But yeah, you learn how to deal with people, how to deal with customers. That can happen in any job. It's just... I read this book in high school. It was called Why Men Rebel, and it said most people have aspirations that are up here, and when their real lives, they feel like, are down here, here-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett20:56

       Mm-hmm

   16. MCMark Cuban20:57

       ... they, you know, a lot of people won't just accept it, okay, 'cause no one wants to think, "I'm not gonna do or not to accomplish anything." So that's when they start fighting and rebelling and joining, you know, groups that are counter to what's happening in society. And, and I think understanding that in yourself. You know, you have to be at least self-aware a little bit to understand that it's okay to be frustrated, but you can't let it overtake your life. You've got to be able to put yourself in a position to at least feel better about yourself, even if it's not perfect.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett21:30

       Did you rebel?

   18. MCMark Cuban21:33

       Oh, my whole life, yeah. I was always counterculture. [laughs] I remember being in high school, and I was four inches shorter, 25 pounds heavier. You can't tell here, but I, these two teeth are caps, and because my parents didn't have any money, I ran into a bicycle. It broke my teeth, and I got caps that were aluminum. S- s- steel. That's what they were. They were steel. And I'm 16 years old.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett21:59

       Wow.

   20. MCMark Cuban21:59

       Like, and people were like, my friends would be like, "Ugh, the reflection." But you just, you just have to find your path. You can't get down on yourself.

10. 22:09 – 25:04

    The Sacrifices I Made to Become Successful

    1. SBSteven Bartlett22:09

       One of the things that a lot of people who feel stuck, um, are probably thinking about is they're probably weight, trying to weight mentally the amount of sacrifice it's gonna take. And when I... I've heard you talk about hard work and the sacrifices that you had to take to build yourself from this sort of 22-year-old who is in Pittsburgh, I believe, at the time-

    2. MCMark Cuban22:28

       Yep

    3. SBSteven Bartlett22:28

       ... to starting your first business, which ended up being acquired, MicroSolutions. What does the sacrifice look like? If I was a fly on the wall when you were... Presumably, you had a job at that time.

    4. MCMark Cuban22:37

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett22:37

       And then you started building the business. What would I have seen in terms of your... How did your life look?

    6. MCMark Cuban22:42

       So when I got to Dallas, moved in with, like I said, five roommates. Didn't have a bed. I just slept on the floor. I mean, that's example of sacrifice, living in a shithole. Got a job working at night as a bartender, but then almost immediately got a job working at a software store, and that was going to be, for me, my first step into a real job, right, where I could have a future. But I got fired nine months later, and-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett23:06

       Whoa

    8. MCMark Cuban23:06

       ... I wanted to move out of the shithole I lived in, and I was gonna be looking at a $1,500 commission, which would have done it for me. So I called my boss, and I'm like, "I need to go pick up this check. You'll make money. I'll make money. And I have somebody to cover opening up the retail store that I worked in." And he was like, "No, I need you in the store." And I made the executive decision to go pick up the check, thinking when I brought it in, everything would be well. He fired me on the spot. Fired me, and I'm like, "Okay, you know, I suck as an employee. Uh, this is not what I want. I'm gonna start my own company." And I don't know if I'd call it sacrifice, but I'd call it deferring immediate gratification. You know, I knew that it was gonna take time for me to get any level of success to move out of that apartment. I was gonna have to sell hard, learn stuff I didn't understand. This was the early days of the PC revolution, when PCs were starting to happen. I don't know this shit, but either does anybody else.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett24:02

       [laughs]

    10. MCMark Cuban24:02

        In my mind, when it came to software, there was only gonna be one person who understood any given software better than me, and that would be the person who wrote it. And that if I busted my ass, I was tied for second, right? When that's new program like Lotus 1-2-3, if you remember that one. Kid- No, what? Shut up.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett24:20

        [laughs]

    12. MCMark Cuban24:21

        It was a very, it was the second spreadsheet that was a big spreadsheet. And so anyways, my idea was I was gonna put in the time to learn that software, however many software packages that is, more than everybody. And I literally would stay in that retail store overnight, or I'd take the computer back to the shithole apartment and just sit there and teach myself and teach myself, read the manuals over and over, because if I can get ahead of everybody else to being second by myself, I would have a huge edge over everybody else in my, you, for MicroSolutions. And it's the same with AI. New AI comes out, new model comes out, new software comes out, there's the creator and everybody else is tied for second.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett25:01

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MCMark Cuban25:01

        And I'm gonna kick their ass by learning it faster,

11. 25:04 – 27:28

    AI: Opportunity or Threat?

    1. MCMark Cuban25:04

       better.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett25:05

       And AI is obviously like the, the term of the moment in business. How s- how significant do you think this is?

    3. MCMark Cuban25:10

       Oh, I mean, I've been in the tech business a long time. This dwarfs ev- everything else in aggregate.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett25:16

       Right.

    5. MCMark Cuban25:16

       This is, yeah, this is so much bigger. With AI, you can just say, "Hey, I need to learn more about Steven Bartlett. Tell me everything there is to know." It's able to make me a lot more productive, and I think it could make anybody more productive, and I think that's the beauty of, of artificial intelligence. And from an educational perspective, if done right, it's a democratizer of information. You have access to every library, every book, every speech everywhere, and so if you're interested, there's nothing you can't learn.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett25:45

       Everywhere I go around the world, people are asking me whether this is, this technology is the real deal, and business owners and entrepreneurs are asking, like, how they should be responding in a moment like this. 'Cause in my life, I'm 30, 34 years old now, there's almost no precedence of such a disruptive-

    7. MCMark Cuban25:58

       Right

    8. SBSteven Bartlett25:58

       ... technology. It can be quite threatening to many people because it, there's this sort of process of, they call it creative destruction, where it, like, rips down-

    9. MCMark Cuban26:06

       Yeah

    10. SBSteven Bartlett26:06

        ... the old way of doing things.

    11. MCMark Cuban26:07

        Yeah, for sure.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett26:07

        And in that it could be ripping down your identity, your degree, your job.

    13. MCMark Cuban26:11

        Your job, yeah.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett26:12

        And so there was a psychologist called Leon Festinger that coined a term called cognitive dissonance, which even-

    15. MCMark Cuban26:16

        Yeah

    16. SBSteven Bartlett26:16

        ... hearing the term helped me understand myself and my feelings, which is the, the discomfort you feel when something sort of threatens or conflicts with what you know. The whole world is experiencing this right now-

    17. MCMark Cuban26:25

        Yep

    18. SBSteven Bartlett26:25

        ... all at once globally. And what people are doing, some people are doing, is they, you know, in an attempt to alleviate the dissonance, bury their heads in the sand, deny it. Not, "It won't come for me. I'll be fine."

    19. MCMark Cuban26:37

        Right. Yeah, that's not gonna happen. Yeah. Not gonna happen. Like with, for me, with AI, I, I see it as an opportunity. Wherever there's change, there's opportunity. You know? Something's changing and, to your point, the cognitive dissonance, people are, are avoiding it and not dealing with it at all.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett26:53

        Mm.

    21. MCMark Cuban26:53

        And then there's others who are picking up on it and saying, "Let's go. Let's go." And that's always been my approach because you know most people aren't going to do the work.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett27:01

        Yeah.

    23. MCMark Cuban27:03

        You know, there was an old basketball coach, Bobby Knight, from Indiana University, and when I was in college, he was on 60 Minutes, and he had this one line, and my jaw just dropped. I'm like, "Oh, shit. That's it. That's my line." He goes, "Everybody's got the will to win, but it's only those with the will to prepare that actually do win." And I'm like, "Bingo. That's all I needed." You know, you get one little line as a kid in your head, and I'm just like, "Let's

12. 27:28 – 31:12

    How Social Media Is Misleading Young Entrepreneurs

    1. MCMark Cuban27:28

       go."

    2. SBSteven Bartlett27:28

       Problem is you never see people prepare. You never-

    3. MCMark Cuban27:31

       You might not see it, right. Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett27:32

       Yeah, you never see it.

    5. MCMark Cuban27:32

       So there's no role model-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett27:33

       Yeah

    7. MCMark Cuban27:33

       ... in preparation, right? Like-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett27:34

       No one gets to see you going and taking the software from the store and taking it home to the shithole apartment 'cause there was no cameras, there was no interest at that point.

    9. MCMark Cuban27:39

       Yeah. Yep, exactly.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett27:40

        So, like, we almost don't appreciate that that's part of the win, but they probably saw you on the, like, the double-decker bus with the trophy-

    11. MCMark Cuban27:46

        Yeah. [laughs]

    12. SBSteven Bartlett27:46

        ... with Mavs.

    13. MCMark Cuban27:47

        Yeah, right?

    14. SBSteven Bartlett27:48

        So, you know, this is the illusion of, like, success, I guess, in this context.

    15. MCMark Cuban27:52

        That's why we have conversations like this.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett27:53

        Yeah.

    17. MCMark Cuban27:53

        Yeah, to convey that.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett27:55

        Yeah.

    19. MCMark Cuban27:55

        That's why you've been so successful.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett27:56

        Well, no, it's, it, but, but this is why I love having these conversations because it, it's almost counter-narrative to Instagram-

    21. MCMark Cuban28:02

        Mm-hmm

    22. SBSteven Bartlett28:02

        ... to hear that you spent years-

    23. MCMark Cuban28:03

        Oh, it's even worse

    24. SBSteven Bartlett28:04

        ... and you-

    25. MCMark Cuban28:04

        Like, it's even worse. Like, okay, so my 16-year-old son, 17-year-old, just turned, right, drove me nuts because you know how the algorithms work, right? Whatever you see, you get more of, and each of us have our own unique algorithm on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, right? Nobody sees the same stuff. And obviously, he was interested in business because he would come up to me and show me these get rich quick schemes. You know, "You're gonna drop ship. You're gonna do, you know, shoe drops." Even there was one where they had a blaster, you know, water blaster, so you can clean sidewalks and, uh... And I'm like, "No," right? If those were good businesses, they wouldn't be telling you about them.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett28:42

        [laughs]

    27. MCMark Cuban28:42

        They would just be doing them. Or make all this money in the stock market. Nobody who has an edge in the stock market is selling it. They're using it. And the, the point of all that is people, particularly now in this social media world where you just get more of what you want, they get misled.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett28:59

        Mm-hmm.

    29. MCMark Cuban28:59

        Section 230, the protections on the internet, and the fact that that protects algorithms, I think really is a big part of holding kids back these days. Because that's why you talk about not seeing people do the preparatory work, you know, not seeing what happens behind the scenes, because that doesn't get more views or more engagement on Instagram or TikTok.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett29:21

        Mm-hmm.
13. 31:12 – 33:04

    Are We in a Bubble?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett31:12

       You do think we're in a bubble, don't you? I heard you talk about this.

    2. MCMark Cuban31:14

       I think we're in a bubble, but not the same as the internet bubble back in two thousand, two thousand and one. I think what's different now is everything's a meme stock. Bitcoin is a meme stock, right? Pick Micron, you know, pick Google, Apple, they're meme stocks. And the reason I say that is by watching how stocks move with just a little bit of news. So a company might miss earnings by a penny or only beat by a penny, and their stock will be down eighteen percent. The intrinsic value of that company hasn't changed eighteen percent. It's just that buyers and sellers move in and move out very quickly based off of anticipated, um, information as opposed to the net present value of the future cash flows and all that. We're trading them like baseball cards.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett32:04

       Mm-hmm.

    4. MCMark Cuban32:05

       You know, there's no intrinsic value to this. It's just perceived value-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett32:08

       Mm-hmm

    6. MCMark Cuban32:08

       ... and what you think somebody else will pay for it. And I think we're in a bubble for that real- very reason. What causes it to burst, I have no idea.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett32:17

       Because we said, you know, this technology, AI, is without precedence. Uh, you know, it is quite tempting for someone like me to put, you know, put a couple of dollars into-

    8. MCMark Cuban32:26

       Yeah, of course. I have

    9. SBSteven Bartlett32:26

       ... Nvidia or whatever.

    10. MCMark Cuban32:27

        Yeah, for sure.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett32:28

        Because you think maybe this is the, like the last technology.

    12. MCMark Cuban32:30

        Right. Because even, you know, I don't think it'll be the last technology 'cause it'll always, something will always happen. There will always be somebody smarter than the AI, I believe. But look at Dell and Amazon. They were companies whose stocks went from way up high, got crushed when the internet bubble burst. Amazon was losing money hand over foot. I mean, people used to give them a hard time because they were losing so much money. Now they're worth trillions of dollars, and if you would just stuck it out with them. So there will, will be winners. I just don't know which company. Is it Anthropic? Is it OpenAI?

14. 33:04 – 37:38

    Why Humans Will Always Be Smarter Than AI

    1. MCMark Cuban33:04

       I don't know.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett33:04

       You think there'll always be someone smarter than the AI?

    3. MCMark Cuban33:06

       Yeah, for sure.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett33:07

       What do you mean by that? I've never heard that.

    5. MCMark Cuban33:09

       Take a model, um, from Anthropic, AI model for Anthropic or Google Gemini or ChatGPT, OpenAI, right? It gets released. It's immediately out of date.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett33:20

       Mm.

    7. MCMark Cuban33:20

       Immediately. The brilliance of this conversation is not incorporated in any model anywhere, right? AI is not smart. It just knows how to use statistics basically to predict the next word. It's predictive, it's not deterministic. Meaning if you asked four different AIs the same question, you're gonna get four different answers.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett33:43

       Mm-hmm.

    9. MCMark Cuban33:43

       If you modify a question to the same AI just marginally that shouldn't change the meaning, it'll give you a different answer every time. That doesn't work in the real world. AI doesn't know the consequences of its actions. AI doesn't have inherent ethics. AI, you know, can't take video and consume it or absorb it, at least not yet. If I'm standing at a four-way intersection and there's cars going back and forth and I have video in my phone and you know, the best models ever, and I have a seeing eye dog right here-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett34:15

        Mm-hmm

    11. MCMark Cuban34:15

        ... I'm letting the seeing eye dog take me across the street before I let the AI take me across the street. It's always going to be behind. There's always going to be a latency, and so many things can change in a blink of the eye in this world that there's always gonna be a human who says, "Oh, you know what? I can do this better," because while all these other companies are competing with their models to try to, you know, hit these benchmarks and outperform in these benchmarks or do, um, recursive self-improvement, so it just keeps on training itself more and more, it doesn't have access. A two-year-old sitting on a high chair with a sippy cup knows that if it pushes the sippy cup off the high chair, Mom's gonna come running, and it knows it's gonna crack up, right? AI's not gonna figure that out, ever.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett35:02

        Do you know, if you, if you plot-- if you think of it as like an exponential technology, this is what I always, I always try and, um,... 'cause it's tempting to think of it as a sort of a static state. I'm thinking of like a graph here, like where it kinda goes like this. But these technologies, from even what I've observed with every new release, seem to be almost like this. So it's quite hard-

    13. MCMark Cuban35:21

        Yeah

    14. SBSteven Bartlett35:21

        ... like even think about full self-driving.

    15. MCMark Cuban35:23

        Yeah.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett35:23

        Like my Tesla drives itself, and apparently the s- the crash rate is significantly lower than-

    17. MCMark Cuban35:27

        Of course

    18. SBSteven Bartlett35:27

        ... if a human was driving.

    19. MCMark Cuban35:28

        Yeah, of course.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett35:29

        And if, if, if I imagine that as an exponential, at some point this shit's gonna be pretty- [chuckles]

    21. MCMark Cuban35:35

        Except.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett35:36

        Yeah.

    23. MCMark Cuban35:37

        Except they're-- just like you see the protests about data centers-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett35:41

        Yeah

    25. MCMark Cuban35:41

        ... when we talked about Why Men Rebel, a book I haven't thought about since high school, right? People are gonna rebel. People are going to create their own communities where there is-- If it's that dominant, there'll be people say, "I don't want that in my life." There'll be c- communes and kibbutzes where there's no technology. There, there's something called adversarial, um, actions for AI, where like with full self-driving, there's certain things that when it sees it-

    26. SBSteven Bartlett36:10

        Mm-hmm

    27. MCMark Cuban36:11

        ... it reacts in the wrong way. And once you know how to do that and you can cause AI to do things that it doesn't want to do or you don't expect it to do, then you're gonna get people who do that all the time.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett36:24

        Mm-hmm.

    29. MCMark Cuban36:25

        And you're also seeing it like when I go and talk to, um, hospitals and researchers for Cost Plus Drugs, right? What I tell them is, "You're crazy if you publish everything or if you try to patent everything 'cause it's immediately available to every model, and you lose control of your intellectual property." And you're starting to see more and more and more people, instead of patenting it, it's a trade secret. Instead of publishing it, I'll put it in my model or I'll sell it to you. And so you get this bifurcation, um, with each model where- Gemini is not trained on the same data as ChatGPT, as Claude, as Grok, et cetera. And if they're all giving you different answers, kinda defeats the purpose in a lot of respects. And if they can't deal with live video or they always have latency... And look, when I say this, I'm not saying AI is useless. No, exact opposite. AI is incredible. But like having four of the smartest people next to you, they're not all gonna give you the same answer.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett37:23

        Mm-hmm.
15. 37:38 – 39:56

    Ads

    1. MCMark Cuban37:38

       that is.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett37:40

       You'd think the former president of Nespresso would be a pretty hard person to convert to a new coffee company. But just one sip of Cometeer coffee made him invest. But let me tell you the reason why I became an investor. So I had a big box of this arrive on my desk in the London office. And then I'd say within about an hour and a half, the Slack channel that we have starts blowing up with people asking, "What the hell is that thing that's been left in the kitchen? It is unbelievable." So instead of trying to make it yourself at home and balance the flavors, they flash freeze it at the perfect moment, so all you have to do is pop it out of here into a cup, pour hot water on it, and it tastes like nothing you've tasted before. You can also make delicious iced coffee drinks as well. Just pour it in. No machine, no brewing with plastic and all that nasty stuff. And you can get $30 off your first order at cometeer.com/stephen today. That's cometeer.com/stephen. There's something your business depends on that most of us never even think about. One thing you realize when you're building your business is just how dependent you become on being connected. Your team is on video calls, files are in the cloud, payments, customer conversations, teams collaborating across the globe. So much of the business is happening online, and you don't really think about your internet when it's working. You notice it when it stops working. T-Mobile is now a sponsor of this show, provider that I've used for the longest time, and they have developed something called Super Broadband, the only nationwide broadband solution to integrate 5G and Starlink, which by the way, is a lifesaver for virtually unbreakable connectivity. Terrestrial 5G and Starlink satellites are two independent pathways that work together to keep you online through outages and disruptions, which means if one of them fails, the other instantly takes over without anything being interrupted, all with one contract and coverage that reaches every zip code in the United States. Super Broadband from T-Mobile is a new era of business internet. Discover more at superbroadband.com. Speeds vary due to local network characteristics and management. Satellite connectivity requires hardware installation and clear view of the sky with 36-month commitment. What do you

16. 39:56 – 44:39

    How AI Agents Will Transform Work and Life

    1. SBSteven Bartlett39:56

       make of all these AI CEOs saying that it's gonna transform how we work and there's-

    2. MCMark Cuban40:01

       Yeah

    3. SBSteven Bartlett40:01

       ... not really gonna be any jobs left and-

    4. MCMark Cuban40:02

       Well, it will transform how we work, but I think there'll be creative destruction, like you-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett40:07

       Mm.

    6. MCMark Cuban40:08

       You know, I went to school at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana, and right by Bloomington is Terre Haute, Indiana. Terre Haute, Indiana, used to be the location for RCA Records-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett40:18

       Mm

    8. MCMark Cuban40:18

       ... which then became CDs.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett40:20

       Yeah.

    10. MCMark Cuban40:20

        Right? And then they made DVDs. You probably don't even remember that shit, right? [laughs]

    11. SBSteven Bartlett40:24

        I remember CDs and DVDs.

    12. MCMark Cuban40:26

        Okay.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett40:26

        But cassettes-

    14. MCMark Cuban40:27

        Gone.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett40:27

        Yeah.

    16. MCMark Cuban40:28

        Gone, right? But it's not like there aren't people making money on music.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett40:32

        Mm-hmm.

    18. MCMark Cuban40:33

        And so there will be creative destruction. There will be new things that pop up that leverage this new technology that create different kinds of jobs. Is the path gonna be painful for people? Yeah, just like the people in Terre Haute, Indiana, it's going to be painful.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett40:45

        'Cause this technology feels so different because, um, when you start to think about how much of our lives run both on the internet, but just based on intelligence-

    20. MCMark Cuban40:55

        Mm-hmm

    21. SBSteven Bartlett40:55

        ... like driving is not something I considered would be impacted by AI, for example. And then now I'm experien- you know, I heard you talking about your use of AI agents, but I've got, I don't know, 25 AI agents on my phone now going through all of my stuff and-

    22. MCMark Cuban41:07

        It's great, right?

    23. SBSteven Bartlett41:08

        It's amazing. [laughs]

    24. MCMark Cuban41:08

        It's amazing.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett41:09

        But you go, "Fuck. Oh my G-" like-

    26. MCMark Cuban41:11

        But it's not smart. I hadn't read a nonfiction book in 25 years, and the only reason I had the time to do it was I had these agents. All the shit that I had on my to-do list that I would have to go search for this, read that, do this, boom. My agents, just like I'm sure you use it for the same thing, right? All the tedious bullshit work that you didn't want to do or always couldn't get to-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett41:36

        Mm-hmm

    28. MCMark Cuban41:36

        ... or thought you had to hire somebody for, now you have an agent that does it, and your biggest decision, do you use Grok Bot? Do you use, you know, Dot? Do you use, you know, CoWork?

    29. SBSteven Bartlett41:46

        Mm.

    30. MCMark Cuban41:46

        And then you try them all, and you see they all give you a different answer, and then you have to use your brain again.
17. 44:39 – 48:59

    Why AI Isn’t Actually Smart (and Why I’m Not a Doomer)

    1. SBSteven Bartlett44:39

       What does the edge become in such a world where everybody has the same information?

    2. MCMark Cuban44:43

       Because you've gotta know how to take what you've read or seen and integrate it and apply it to what you're trying to accomplish. Because it's cool, like I can say, "Write me a business plan for this business," and it'll create all the agents, it'll create the bots, it'll do all that stuff, but I've gotta be the one to say, "This is right, this is wrong, this is right," and then I've gotta be the one that goes out and sells it or teaches the agents how to sell when we get to that point-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett45:10

       Right

    4. MCMark Cuban45:10

       ... so that the business could actually work. AI is not smart. It's just grinds and grinds and grinds. When you hear about the risk profile, the doomers, right? When you, when I talk to security people, I ask this very specific question. We're hearing these stories about AI breaking in here or doing that.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett45:31

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MCMark Cuban45:31

       Did they invent anything? Did they come up with a new approach for hacking into this system or for stealing this data? No. They didn't do anything new. What they did was get the same list that every security person has, and because you can create an unlimited number of agents to go through and try it in every possible combination, it's all brute force. Where AI has a huge advantage is in doing brute force approaches to things because, you know, we'd always done security by trying to catch all the problems, knowing that, you know, unless it's a DDoS attack, right, nobody has the, the resources to do a full brute force to have more resources than we do.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett46:11

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MCMark Cuban46:11

       Those days are gone, but what we don't talk about is using that same brute force on the defense side, that you can go out there and find all the holes in yourself and go be proactive to attack the bad guys. So I don't think-- I'm not a doomer at all.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett46:25

       Mm.

    10. MCMark Cuban46:25

        There'll be instances of shit that happens, but I'm more afraid of what people do because of their concerns and lack of understanding of AI than I am about what AI will do.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett46:36

        AI is not smart?

    12. MCMark Cuban46:37

        No. Even when we call it intelligent, like we, we-- Remember how when we talk about book-smart?

    13. SBSteven Bartlett46:44

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MCMark Cuban46:44

        Somebody who can read a book, remember what's in it, they're book-smart.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett46:48

        Yeah.

    16. MCMark Cuban46:48

        Get A's on tests 'cause they memorize everything, and they-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett46:51

        Yeah.

    18. MCMark Cuban46:51

        That's AI.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett46:53

        So what is, what is-- I wanna be clear on your definition of smart.

    20. MCMark Cuban46:56

        Smart is being able to aggregate information and inputs.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett47:00

        Yeah.

    22. MCMark Cuban47:01

        Smart is being able to know where to look for the inputs and being able to take them, and then aggregate them to solve a problem.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett47:10

        Mm-hmm.

    24. MCMark Cuban47:11

        And also being able to identify the problem you're trying to solve. AI doesn't do that. And again, you have to be in the real time. We're having this conversation.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett47:20

        Mm-hmm.

    26. MCMark Cuban47:21

        I didn't know what questions you were going to ask, right? It's just whatever, right? AI is missing all that.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett47:28

        Mm-hmm.

    28. MCMark Cuban47:29

        There's no way to feed AI everything that humans have access to. Like, we talk about replacing doctors. Okay, uh, if I'm a doctor and Steven's there, this speeds it up. I have access to every research report, whatever it may be, um, article, and then Steven pukes all over me. AI can't help me with that, right? "Steven, what's wrong?" It's like I can't say to the AI, "What's wrong with Steven?" I have to use my senses, look, you know, take my experience, and be smart enough to ask the right question.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett48:03

        Is there a probability that something could happen that changes your mind on this point? It-

    30. MCMark Cuban48:08

        Yeah
18. 48:59 – 50:31

    Will AI Create a Utopia?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett48:59

       Do you think the, like, people like Elon who, uh, you know, talk about how the basically working is gonna become a choice and, um, how smart this technology's gonna be and the humanoid robots that are gonna be empowered by AI and- Are those forecasts overblown?

    2. MCMark Cuban49:13

       El- Elon's amazing. He's a brilliant entrepreneur, don't get me wrong. He's the best entrepreneur of our lifetimes for sure. But he's a sales guy, you know, and he has to raise a lot of money for all the things he likes to do, and he's good at that. And so I don't begrudge Elon anything, even though he gives me shit on Twitter or X and I give him shit right back. But I think he's got to sell what he's got to sell, and I think that carries the day for Elon.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett49:39

       Hmm. Uh, yeah, I'm, uh... It's funny 'cause I sit here with so many different people from the, the world of AI safety experts and then some of the f- frontier labs, you know-

    4. MCMark Cuban49:47

       Mm-hmm

    5. SBSteven Bartlett49:47

       ... team members or CEOs or ex-employees, and one of the remarkable things is I hear everything.

    6. MCMark Cuban49:54

       Yeah. There's no one continuous theme, right?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett49:55

       [laughs] Yeah.

    8. MCMark Cuban49:56

       No, no, no two people give you the same answer.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett49:58

       Yeah.

    10. MCMark Cuban49:58

        That tells you all you need to know, right?

    11. SBSteven Bartlett49:59

        Yeah. It's, it's costumesy.

    12. MCMark Cuban50:00

        'Cause it should be obvious. If it was so dominant and there was a destination that everybody understood is where we would get to, it would be obvious to everybody and we all would see it. Again, you have to have more power and more GPUs than the history of power and GPUs prior to last year. That's not intelligence. There's a reason why you have to have all that. You know, you have to... It's just brute

19. 50:31 – 51:29

    How AI Is Different From the Computer Revolution

    1. MCMark Cuban50:31

       force.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett50:32

       Computers started a bit like that, didn't they?

    3. MCMark Cuban50:34

       Um, no. It's the exact opposite.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett50:35

       Really, they start even less-

    5. MCMark Cuban50:35

       Yeah, 'cause they were minimally capable, and so it took brilliance to program on Fortran on cards and put them into, uh, this huge mainframe that didn't have a hundredth of the power of your phone. So they start off with minimal power, and smart people figured out how to encode them. And then you got Moore's Law, and we saw chips, you know, silicon and all this stuff, and it just got s- you know, faster, faster, and faster. And maybe that's why I'm prejudiced in this, right? Because I've seen computers get incrementally faster, faster, faster by the minute, day, and year, and the output and the capabilities that they create.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett51:10

       Mm-hmm.

    7. MCMark Cuban51:11

       And so maybe that holds me back, right? My experience holds me back-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett51:14

       Interesting

    9. MCMark Cuban51:14

       ... but I think it, I think it's indicative of what comes next pretty much all the time with technology. That it's going to get more powerful, for sure. It's going to get more capable, for sure. But as long as there's latency, people have the edge.

20. 51:29 – 57:21

    Is AI Sending Us Into Debt?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett51:30

       It's gonna get cheaper?

    2. MCMark Cuban51:33

       Yeah, it'll get cheaper for sure. It already is a lot cheaper than it was two weeks ago. It's getting cheaper because those companies keep on borrowing and spending more money to get more power in order to power all of the, the AI.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett51:47

       I think this is surprising to hear from you because you're someone who built Broadcast.com at a moment when we were living in an, like an exponential era.

    4. MCMark Cuban51:54

       Yeah, an analog era. Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett51:56

       Yeah. And it, you know, the internet was... I mean, people were skeptical about the internet, uh, but-

    6. MCMark Cuban52:01

       Yeah, peop- when I, when I said we were gonna stream or, you know, Netcast is what we called it, they were like, "You're an idiot. I'll just turn on the TV. You're an idiot. I'll just turn on the radio." I just, I'm not a naysayer on AI. I am the biggest proponent of AI that there is. But in order to, to really get the benefit, you have to be, you know, honest about it. Like I said one time that a lot of these data centers will turn into pickleball carts, courts, right? As a metaphor, not that literally they'd be pickleball courts. Because in order for AI to reach the pinnacle that everybody wants to reach it, you have to have less power doing more, not more power doing more, because then you run into constraints like we're running into right now. We literally could get into a, a debt bubble in the United States of America because there's so much debt being taken out by all these, you know, hyperscalers.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett52:54

       You think that's possible?

    8. MCMark Cuban52:55

       Yeah, of course it is. 'Cause our deficit keeps on rising, um, in the United States, which means we have to borrow more money, and the hyperscalers are, are borrowing more than they're making. And so they're borrowing more, and that lenders are competing for that biz- or they're competing to get lenders to lend to them. Rates keep on going up. I mean, if you've got a $40 billion debt and your interest rates keeps on going up, at some point you can't raise money anymore.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett53:23

       Hmm.

    10. MCMark Cuban53:23

        There's a lot of praying going on right now. I'm a huge fan of Nvidia and Jensen Huang, but they're basically subsidizing half the industry 'cause they have the cash to do it. And you've got, was it Goo- no, Meta, I think it is, borrowing more than they have in cash flow by a factor of... I mean, if it were the brilliance of brilliant, it should be the opposite, right? And at some point it may get there, but until then, we're in this private credit debt environment where there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of things can go wrong. I mean, if you read what Ray Dalio says-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett53:59

        Mm-hmm

    12. MCMark Cuban53:59

        ... you know, Ray says we've already crossed the, the curve, right? We're already past that point where we could be a debt-laden society where our currency becomes, you know, w-worthless at some point.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett54:12

        Where are we in this, um, at the moment w- in terms of the symptoms or markers of the next big collapse?

    14. MCMark Cuban54:18

        Well, we're, we're over in this vicinity over here. The US, the UK, a number of other countries are, um, later in that cycle when there's the loss of the things that we've been talking about, overindebtedness, more overindebtedness, the loss of power.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett54:37

        So we're in the collapse period of the decline.

    16. MCMark Cuban54:39

        Yeah, the decline. I'll call that the, the decline.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett54:42

        It's hard to imagine that for America, especially when you're 34 years old, 'cause you've just always seen the dominance of America.

    18. MCMark Cuban54:47

        Right. No. As an American, it's, it's hard to imagine, and you think we'll figure it out.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett54:52

        Yeah.

    20. MCMark Cuban54:53

        We'll always figure it out. And I'm optimistic enough to think that we will, but there'll be pain associated with that. Our politicians are great at sloganeering. They're really bad at actually doing things, and I think that's gonna be tough in this country.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett55:07

        I think-

    22. MCMark Cuban55:07

        In all countries

    23. SBSteven Bartlett55:08

        ... I think a lot of people think AI is the life raft out of the debt as well, because if you hear this age of abundance idea-

    24. MCMark Cuban55:14

        It's a race. It's a race, right? Will lenders lend to AI companies if interest rates hit, you know, now the 10-year is, like, 5.2%? If it goes to 6%, 8%, 10%, something's gotta give. And right now it- current interest rates, we're paying a trillion dollars in interest every year in this country. A trillion. And if the interest rates keep on going up and what we have to borrow keeps on going up, and then you've got all these hyperscalers competing to get access to that money, something gets crowded out. I don't know which or what. I'm not enough of a financial expert to do that, but something's gonna give.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett55:52

        Are you playing defense in any way-

    26. MCMark Cuban55:53

        Yeah

    27. SBSteven Bartlett55:53

        ... just in case?

    28. MCMark Cuban55:54

        Yeah. Yeah.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett55:55

        What does that look like?

    30. MCMark Cuban55:56

        I've got money in this country, in that country.
21. 57:21 – 58:40

    Ads

    1. SBSteven Bartlett57:22

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22. 58:40 – 1:01:16

    How My Insecurities Drove My Success

    1. SBSteven Bartlett58:40

       You mentioned earlier on having your teeth knocked out.

    2. MCMark Cuban58:42

       Uh-huh.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett58:43

       And you were sort of alluding to the fact that this made you an in- a little bit of an insecure young man-

    4. MCMark Cuban58:47

       Yeah

    5. SBSteven Bartlett58:47

       ... to some degree.

    6. MCMark Cuban58:48

       100%, yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett58:49

       Um, oftentimes when we... You know, I interview someone like yourself, the audience and me will assume that you are very intentionally, consciously driven. But the more I've interviewed people, sometimes you figure out that sometimes they're a little bit dragged-

    8. MCMark Cuban59:04

       Oh, yeah

    9. SBSteven Bartlett59:05

       ... by their insecurities and-

    10. MCMark Cuban59:06

        Oh, 100%, right? I was the-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett59:08

        Yeah

    12. MCMark Cuban59:08

        ... fat kid, right? And I would do anything I c- like, I literally wore a shirt to school that said "bullshit." My mom's like, "You're gonna get suspended," 20 minutes after I got there. I had a pair of jeans that I ripped up from the bottom all the way up to my hip, and then I stapled it together just to stand out and get attention 'cause I like... Like, after I became famous, people went back to my high school peers, you know, kids in my class. They had no idea who I was. [laughs]

    13. SBSteven Bartlett59:33

        Right. [laughs]

    14. MCMark Cuban59:35

        My friends did, right? The people I was close to, but nobody. And I saw something where somebody took one of the pictures from my high school yearbook and they circled it as being me. It wasn't me. So yeah, I was not somebody who stood out or was considered to be, you know, most likely to be successful at all.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett59:53

        Was that sort of shame, insecurity part of your drive?

    16. MCMark Cuban59:56

        Oh, yeah, for sure, just to prove people wrong. That's one of the reasons I went to Indiana, and I remember getting to IU and saying, "You know, here's my chance for a fresh start. I get to be whoever I wanna be. Act like it."

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:09

        Did you think becoming successful and/or famous would fix the in- the insecurity, the thing that was invalidating you at some level?

    18. MCMark Cuban1:00:16

        I, I didn't think-- No, I didn't think-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:17

        Yeah

    20. MCMark Cuban1:00:17

        ... about it that directly. I didn't, you know, one or the other. I just thought I hated being broke.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:22

        Mm-hmm.

    22. MCMark Cuban1:00:22

        You know? I wanted to control my own destiny. That was a big thing. And I wanted to be able to control my own time. Like, after I sold MicroSolutions, I didn't immediately say, "I'm gonna take this money, invest it, and I'm gonna go out there and make as much money as I can." I did the exact opposite. I bought a lifetime pass on American Airlines.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:39

        I heard about this.

    24. MCMark Cuban1:00:40

        And, and my mission was to go out there and get as fucked up as possible with as many people as possible-

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:45

        [laughs]

    26. MCMark Cuban1:00:45

        ... and as many countries as possible, and just to enjoy. Like, I have an iWatch now 'cause all the data, and the day I sold MicroSolutions, I took off my watch and I said, "I'm never gonna wear a watch again because that means I'm working on somebody else's time." When, by not having a watch, by being successful, it's my time. Why I don't get dressed up, why I won't wear a tie. It's like swag isn't how you dress. Swag is being able to tell somebody else how they dress, you know? And I just wanted to control my own destiny and my own time.

23. 1:01:16 – 1:03:17

    What Becoming a Billionaire Changed in Me

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:16

       And you made a couple million dollars from selling MicroSolutions-

    2. MCMark Cuban1:01:18

       Yeah

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:18

       ... as a young man. Um, you then start the Broadcast.com company in your early 30s?

    4. MCMark Cuban1:01:23

       Uh, 37.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:23

       Oh, 37.

    6. MCMark Cuban1:01:24

       Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:24

       Oh, you're 37. And that sold four years later to Yahoo for $5.7 billion in stock.

    8. MCMark Cuban1:01:29

       In stock, yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:30

       Which gave you a paper net worth of somewhere between roughly $1.5 billion, $1.7 billion.

    10. MCMark Cuban1:01:35

        Paper, yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:36

        How-- Did that change anything?

    12. MCMark Cuban1:01:37

        Oh, yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:38

        Yeah.

    14. MCMark Cuban1:01:38

        Changed everything, you know?

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:40

        Inside.

    16. MCMark Cuban1:01:41

        Yeah, because it meant instead of hustling and worrying about what came next- I got to do whatever the fuck I wanted to do, and that was the beauty of the whole thing. I mean, buying the Mavs. It never in a million years would've crossed my mind that I would own an NBA team. And again, going back to I wanted to control my own time. That was something my parents never had the option to do. They always are, were obligated to somebody else. They had to show up at work. They had to be nice to so-and-so. They had to do such and such. And just being able to come home and eat dinner and watch TV was their joy.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:19

        Your dad got to see you become a successful man.

    18. MCMark Cuban1:02:21

        Yeah.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:22

        What did he think?

    20. MCMark Cuban1:02:23

        Oh, he would just cry and cry [laughs] and cry.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:25

        Really?

    22. MCMark Cuban1:02:25

        We're an emotional family, let's put it that way. Yeah. Um, he obviously was proud of all of us, and he would just shake his head and he goes, "I don't know where you got it." [both laughing] "It certainly didn't come from me or your mom." And-

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:38

        Are there anything, uh, is there anything else that acquiring lots of money has taught you about meaning, happiness, or what this is all really about?

    24. MCMark Cuban1:02:45

        Yeah. If you're miserable when you're poor, good chance you're gonna be miserable when you're rich.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:49

        Hmm.

    26. MCMark Cuban1:02:49

        Money can't change who you are. Money can't change your approach to life. Money can't change how you feel about yourself.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:57

        Mm-hmm.

    28. MCMark Cuban1:02:57

        It really won't. I mean, it's nice. I, I like being rich a whole lot more than I like being broke, but I really take pride in the fact that, you know, I still have the same friends. You know, my high school buddies are still my high school buddies. I'm still close to my brothers. I'm still close to my rugby teammates. I'm still close to, you know, the same people that always have meant something to me-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:16

        Mm-hmm

    30. MCMark Cuban1:03:16

        ... those

24. 1:03:17 – 1:05:03

    Do You Have to Be Ruthless in Business?

    1. MCMark Cuban1:03:17

       are my friends.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:17

       Do you have to be ruthless in business?

    3. MCMark Cuban1:03:19

       No, absolutely not. That was one of the biggest mistakes I made. Um, in MicroSolutions, I used to scream, and then Todd Wagner, my partner at co- at, um, Broadcast.com, told me, "Mark, people are afraid of you. It's counterproductive. You have to, you know, chill out." And he was right, and I found that I got a lot further by being nice than by being a dick.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:40

       This idea of being nice is a- another lesson that your father was quite clear on, wasn't it?

    5. MCMark Cuban1:03:43

       Yeah, for sure. I mean, he was nice to everybody. I can be mad, but it's not gonna change anything, you know? And if it's not gonna change anything and it makes me feel worse by being mad, fuck it.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:54

       But aren't people gonna fuck with you if, if they don't know that you have it in the locker?

    7. MCMark Cuban1:03:58

       What are they gonna do?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:59

       You know, people might, uh, y- again, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but aren't p- if, if people think you're a soft touch, aren't they gonna-

    9. MCMark Cuban1:04:06

       I'm not writing them checks for nothing, right?

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:08

        [laughs]

    11. MCMark Cuban1:04:08

        I'm just not gonna be... I mean, look, if you saw me with referees at a basketball game-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:12

        Yeah, I have [laughs]

    13. MCMark Cuban1:04:12

        ... that was like my outlet, right? That's where I got it out of my system. But like in business, it's just not worth it, particularly now. Like when I was first getting started and I'm in my 20s and I didn't know any better, I didn't really, I didn't have any role models, I was just learning as I went then, you know, I was, I was a jerk. I would yell. I would scream. But once I got to Broadcast.com, Audionet, Broadcast.com, I got a lot more done, and I was happier about it. You know? It just made it easier and people, you know, reacted better to me, and so it was, it worked out.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:44

        'Cause we hear about these stories of Steve Jobs and his anger and his rage, and I was just reading Ari Emanuel's book about, of rage and-

    15. MCMark Cuban1:04:51

        Yeah. No-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:51

        The first chapter

    17. MCMark Cuban1:04:52

        ... Ari's gonna let it loose. Yeah.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:53

        Yeah. [laughs]

    19. MCMark Cuban1:04:53

        But everybody's different. You know?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:55

        Yeah.

    21. MCMark Cuban1:04:55

        I mean, what works for you and just for me, like now, why would I get mad at somebody? What good does it

25. 1:05:03 – 1:06:14

    The Cost of Fame and Losing Privacy

    1. MCMark Cuban1:05:03

       do me?

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:03

       You seem like a very happy person.

    3. MCMark Cuban1:05:05

       I try to be, right? I mean, I, I mean-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:07

       On and off camera, I felt like you were a, a very, uh, optimistic, happy person.

    5. MCMark Cuban1:05:11

       Yeah. 'Cause why not?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:13

       It's actually q- it's actually quite rare t- to meet someone who is a billionaire, um, who has that positive energy and sort of contentment-

    7. MCMark Cuban1:05:22

       I mean-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:22

       ... for some reason

    9. MCMark Cuban1:05:22

       ... money changed my life, but it didn't change my life. You know? The things I could buy, not having stress about where I lived or paying the bills, all the stuff that money can do, but it didn't make me a better person or a worse person. It didn't change my relationship. I mean, honestly, being a celebrity was a lot harder than being rich.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:45

        Really?

    11. MCMark Cuban1:05:46

        Yeah. Particularly as, um, social media became more prevalent and when Shark Tank blew up, it was, you know, the Mavs had just won a championship. Shark Tank now is at the top, at its peak ratings and everything, and I mean, celebrities everywhere, "Oh, I love Shark Tank."

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:00

        Mm-hmm.

    13. MCMark Cuban1:06:00

        "It's my new favorite show." You know how all that stuff goes, right? And being rich doesn't give you attention, right? It just changes how you deal with things. Being a celebrity brings you attention, some good, some bad.

26. 1:06:14 – 1:12:07

    How Fame Impacted My Brothers

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:14

       And you, uh, you're an older brother of three-

    2. MCMark Cuban1:06:17

       Yeah

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:17

       ... brothers.

    4. MCMark Cuban1:06:17

       Yeah, two younger brothers.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:18

       How, how has that been formative to you? 'Cause I, I, you know, I'm a younger brother of four, but I always think of older brothers as being, I mean, more likely to lead. Is that an accurate reflection of what it was like being an older brother?

    6. MCMark Cuban1:06:30

       In my household, yeah. Yeah, 'cause they, they both followed me to Dallas. Both super smart guys, great guys. We're, we're close, but they always copied me.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:37

       Hmm.

    8. MCMark Cuban1:06:37

       And, you know, there was two and a half year difference to Bryan, my middle brother, and six-year difference, so I was gone, 'cause I left early for college. We weren't as close then because they were super young and I was out of the house, but then I went to Indiana and they would come visit me and, you know, then I g- came, after Indiana, I went to Dallas, and they came and lived with me. Both of them lived with me at some point, and that's when we got close.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:00

       What role do you think you've played in their lives as big brother?

    10. MCMark Cuban1:07:04

        You know, that's a great question. Um, I hope I've been able to set a good example. You know, I think I've been a double-edged sword for them as a big brother in that, um, I think I've set a good example in many ways, and I tried to be supportive and help them where I could. But then you know what it's like when it comes with celebrity, right? That creates a whole different set of pressures, and I think, you know, particularly living in Dallas as things started to really take off for me, was tough on them, and I could tell. You know? It's, it's not that they weren't supportive, but, you know, it's not like Cuban is Smith, right? Where b-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:38

        [laughs]

    12. MCMark Cuban1:07:39

        ... you know, it's like Cuban, oh, you must be related to, or your brother, you know, how are you related to Mark? And I mean, I know that that put a lot of pressure on them.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:48

        Put a lot of pressure on them?

    14. MCMark Cuban1:07:49

        Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, "Well, what are you doing?" Right? Or, "You just live off your brother," or this or that, and both of them are smart and both of them have made their own way, have done really well. But, you know, and we haven't talked about it a lot, but, you know, we, it, it, it was definitely tougher on them as things really started to take off for me.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:07

        Brian struggled.

    16. MCMark Cuban1:08:10

        Yeah.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:10

        Um, we actually spoke to Brian.

    18. MCMark Cuban1:08:12

        Oh, you did?

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:12

        We did speak to Brian, yeah. And he, he sort of spoke to some of those struggles.

    20. MCMark Cuban1:08:16

        Yeah.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:17

        But he also, um, he wrote you a letter.

    22. MCMark Cuban1:08:20

        Oh my God. I'll probably start crying.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:24

        Do you want me to read it?

    24. MCMark Cuban1:08:24

        Yeah.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:25

        I read it and I, I found it to be, you know, very emotional. [paper rustling]

    26. MCMark Cuban1:08:32

        Do you want me to read it out loud?

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:34

        Yeah.

    28. MCMark Cuban1:08:34

        "We have so many great childhood memories, it's hard to pick one. [inhales] So I'll go to the one that feels most personal to me. July 2005 was the lowest moment of my life, wanting to end it. You and Jeff were there for me, as you both always have been. I wouldn't be here today if not for you both. As our dad told us growing up, 'No matter what happens or where you go, always stay in contact with your brothers.' It's no accident that after so many decades, 1,200 miles from Pittsburgh, we all live within walking distance of each other. I love you, Brian." [paper rustling] Yeah, it was not a good time, um, in 2005. You know, he-- And again, that goes part and parcel to, you know, being my little brother, you know, and being out and about in the social scene and, you know, I had bought the Mavs in 2000. You know, I was becoming famous, and all of a sudden, it wasn't a burden he chose, right? Or it wasn't his choice. It was just w- the way things turned out. And, you know, he, he took a turn. I mean, he just had issues, had problems and [sniffs] Jeff called me. I was out of town. I came back in and we went and got him and put him in rehab and, you know, and he's been sober ever since. So thank God for that.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:03

        Puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

    30. MCMark Cuban1:10:05

        Yeah.
27. 1:12:07 – 1:14:47

    Should Everyone Be an Entrepreneur?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:07

       Should everyone be an entrepreneur?

    2. MCMark Cuban1:12:09

       No, y- not everybody's built to be an entrepreneur. Um-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:12

       What are they missing?

    4. MCMark Cuban1:12:14

       If you have to ask yourself if you can be an entrepreneur, you're probably not an entrepreneur. There's something that you want to accomplish, or there's a skill that you have that you want to, to use to your own benefit, financial benefit. But not everybody's willing to do the work, like we talked about earlier, to do the preparation, to, to fight the battles, and I think a lot of people think that when you become an entrepreneur, you get more control of your life-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:38

       Mm-hmm

    6. MCMark Cuban1:12:38

       ... as opposed to being subject to what, the whims of your bosses.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:41

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MCMark Cuban1:12:41

       It's the exact opposite.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:43

       Mm.

    10. MCMark Cuban1:12:43

        You have no control of your life as an entrepreneur because your customers, your employees, there's always something. Some employee's child is sick, and you have to work it through because particularly if, you know, if you have a company that has under 100 employees, everybody's family-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:59

        Yeah

    12. MCMark Cuban1:12:59

        ... at some level, you know? And you know everybody, you l- you talk to them, you know what's happening in your lives. People don't expect that when they become an entrepreneur.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:07

        If I sat Mark there, 20-year-old Mark here-

    14. MCMark Cuban1:13:09

        Yeah, programmer Mark

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:10

        ... give me 20. Uh, just give me the preface on why I'm asking this question. I think that the journey you've been on changes a man.

    16. MCMark Cuban1:13:15

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:15

        You know, in several ways, small ways. It's kinda like being pelted by hail and especially if you're a famous person. So I think people become clearer on their principles and they, they, th- they learn principles, but they also become clearer on, on their principles. So if I sat 21-year-old Mark there, and then you're sat here now, what, w- how has this journey, being pelted by the world, good and bad, shaped you? And, like, what's changed?

    18. MCMark Cuban1:13:41

        That's a great question. Um, I mean, I think family obviously changes you the most, but from a business perspective here, and it's great that you brought this picture, so you see- That poster right there that hadn't been hung, hung, hung up yet-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:56

        Mm-hmm

    20. MCMark Cuban1:13:56

        ... says, "Poverty sucks."

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:57

        [chuckles]

    22. MCMark Cuban1:13:59

        And I used to have it. I just moved in the house. That's the second bedroom in my house. Every house or apartment that I lived in, that was on the wall, "Poverty sucks." And I think that's the big difference. You know, this Mark was, you know... I would sit there for 25, 26 straight hours writing software for customers because I knew I had to do it.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:20

        And you had no degree in software engineering?

    24. MCMark Cuban1:14:22

        No, I had to teach myself everything. So anything I didn't know, I had to learn, teach myself, and that's what I would do. I literally, I would get a bucket of ribs. It's so gross now. But I would sit there because I would start concentrating so hard, and I would look up thinking it's three or four hours later, and it'd be 28 hours later 'cause I was just so consumed by what I was doing because I wanted to get to that next level.

28. 1:14:47 – 1:16:02

    My Biggest Weaknesses

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:47

       You found out what you were good at and what you were capable of. Did you also find out what you were not capable of and what you were not good at?

    2. MCMark Cuban1:14:52

       Oh, yeah. A lot of stuff. I found-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:54

       One of those things-

    4. MCMark Cuban1:14:55

       What do I suck at?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:56

       I wanna just preface this by saying, I think this is also really important because sometimes people look at a billionaire successful businessman like you and go, "He must just fucking be-"

    6. MCMark Cuban1:15:03

       Oh, no, no. I-- There's a lot of things I'm awful at. At MicroSolutions, I had a partner, Martin Woodall. Martin Woodall was anal. He was just a perfectionist about everything. I'm not. I'm ready, fire, aim. Go, go, go, go, go. And if you go out of the baseline, so be it, right? If it goes into touch, so be it. It doesn't matter, right? That's for somebody else to deal with. When I got to broadcast.com, Todd Wagner, same way. His skill set complemented mine. It wasn't that I needed a partner, it's that I needed a partner.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:33

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MCMark Cuban1:15:33

       You know? And recognizing that I never was gonna be good at the details. Dr. Ash Mayanski now at Cost Plus Drugs, very detail-oriented. I need that complement to my skill set because I'm awful at the details.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:47

       What about finance? Were you good at finance? 'Cause you didn't-

    10. MCMark Cuban1:15:50

        Yeah

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:50

        ... have a finance degree, did you?

    12. MCMark Cuban1:15:51

        Oh, no. But I had taken finance classes. I had taken entrepreneurship classes. So yeah, I get finance. I might not be able to structure the most advanced M&A deal, but I'm gonna understand

29. 1:16:02 – 1:17:25

    Why Hiring Is Everything

    1. MCMark Cuban1:16:02

       it.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:02

       What about hiring and leadership? Is-- Like, 'cause-

    3. MCMark Cuban1:16:04

       Oh, that's another thing, right? Let's separate hiring and leadership.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:07

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MCMark Cuban1:16:07

       Leadership is one thing I think I'm good at, right? Hiring, suck at it. As a salesperson, I would see Steven sit- sitting across from me, and Steven would give me an answer to a question. I'm like, "Okay, I can help Steven. I can make it work. I want, I want this guy to be successful at my company." And I would hire the worst possible people. Why did you hire this guy? Well, I thought it's like a Shark Tank deal. This company sucks. Why were you investing in this guy? Oh, I can make it work. I can make it work. And so people are like, "Hey, Mark, can I get a job? Can I send you my resume?" I'm like, "Don't send it to me."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:38

       [laughs] 'Cause I might hire you.

    7. MCMark Cuban1:16:40

       I'm awful at it.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:42

       How important is it, though, as a skill in terms of outcomes, do you think?

    9. MCMark Cuban1:16:45

       Oh, hiring is critical, right? I mean, if you don't have the right people and the right culture, the people that fit into that culture, you're gonna suck. But, you know, we would hire slow, but fire fast. So if there's somebody that these guys hired and I'm like, "They're not gonna work," they would know, and it'd get resolved.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:01

        People-- Founders don't talk about that enough. They, they talk about, like, creating a fancy, shiny product that does something awesome, but the actual art of, like, building the team-

    11. MCMark Cuban1:17:08

        Is more important.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:09

        Yeah.

    13. MCMark Cuban1:17:10

        Yeah. I mean, you gotta have the right product, the right service, but-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:12

        Makes me think about this again.

    15. MCMark Cuban1:17:13

        Yeah. That as well.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:14

        The Mavs, 'cause that's-

    17. MCMark Cuban1:17:14

        Yeah.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:15

        Like, the-

    19. MCMark Cuban1:17:15

        You've gotta have culture. And particularly in sports. You can have the most talent, but if they don't fit together as a team, they're gonna

30. 1:17:25 – 1:23:34

    What the Mavericks Taught Me About Building Culture

    1. MCMark Cuban1:17:25

       suck.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:25

       Is that what you found when you went into the Mavs originally?

    3. MCMark Cuban1:17:27

       Oh, yeah. Yeah. When I got there, nobody wanted to be there. I mean, literally, people in the office, people on the court, they-- w-we were just a way station. If you couldn't get a job with the Lakers or the Celtics or whoever, right, okay, the Mavs will hire you, and that's fine. So when I got there, it was the most important thing that I focused on. I sat there in front of the players. I'm like, "We're gonna win, and this train is speeding up. It's internet time. It's 2000, right? And if you wanna stay, let me know. And if you don't wanna stay, let me know, and I'll trade you. I got no problem with that 'cause we're gonna do things differently. I expect you to win. I'll give you the tools you need to win." Like, one of the things I did, um, like, when I took over, we had a head coach and, like, three assistant coaches, and they were responsible for all the training and player development, and that's the way the entire NBA did it. And we were s- literally spending more money on computer training and support than we were on player development. And for players, we paid more than a million dollars.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:26

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MCMark Cuban1:18:26

       So I'm like, "This is the dumbest shit I've ever seen." And so I asked our general manager and assistant general manager and coaches, I'm like, "Go find former Mavericks, and I want you to bring them in, and we're gonna assign to each of them one player who has a similar skill set that they had when they were in the NBA, and they're gonna do nothing but work with them. That's it."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:45

       Mm-hmm.

    7. MCMark Cuban1:18:45

       "Just work with them." That made perfect sense to me because all these former players wanted to get in, and we hardly had to pay them anything. They just wanted to be part of the game again. And now all of a sudden, all of our players had somebody focused on them, and not only did it improve their skills, but it made them realize that the culture of this organization is to win, and we will do whatever it takes to win. And, you know, it paid off. But the rest of the NBA, oh my God, they hated me. They hated me. I went out and bought a plane. You know, I spent about the same amount on the team plane because I'm like, we leave Oakland, California, at 3:00 in the morning or whatever. I don't want us flying on this little ratty plane that they rented or a typical commercial plane when your guy's seven... We had a guy, Shawn Bradley, seven foot six. He's not s- you know, fitting in a regular seat, and he's making his living with his body, right? So I bought a plane, and I told, I told the guys, "Okay, we're gonna fuck with everybody. I want you to tell everybody that there's a weight room on the plane, a steam room." [laughs] We didn't have any of that shit, right?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:47

       [laughs]

    9. MCMark Cuban1:19:47

       And to this day, people ask me about the weight room that we had on the plane. And just stuff like that where it's, not only is it effective and improves outcomes, but it sends a message. That, hey, this is what we're trying to do. This is our culture. We're gonna win, we're gonna support each other, and I'm gonna get you all the tools you need. Like, even things like a nutritionist or, you know, preparing food for them, things teams didn't do back then.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:14

        Mm-hmm.

    11. MCMark Cuban1:20:15

        And it just made sense to me.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:16

        Did you see the culture changing of the Mavs?

    13. MCMark Cuban1:20:18

        Oh, like that.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:19

        It was quickly.

    15. MCMark Cuban1:20:20

        Oh, yeah. We went... When I took over, we were 9 and 23.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:24

        What does that mean?

    17. MCMark Cuban1:20:25

        Um, we, 9 wins and 23 losses.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:27

        Oh, damn.

    19. MCMark Cuban1:20:27

        Yeah. And we finished the season, um, the next 50 games, we were 31 and 19.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:34

        Wow.

    21. MCMark Cuban1:20:34

        Yeah.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:35

        The next season?

    23. MCMark Cuban1:20:36

        No, n- we're talking about that season.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:38

        That season.

    25. MCMark Cuban1:20:38

        So when I took over in January, the season runs towards April.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:41

        Mm-hmm.

    27. MCMark Cuban1:20:41

        When I took over, we had 9 wins, 23 losses, and for the, the remaining 50 w- 50 games of that season, we won 31 of them, lost 19 of them.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:51

        Since you took over, the Mavericks had the second highest regular season winning percentage of any NBA team.

    29. MCMark Cuban1:20:56

        Yep.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:56

        The team went from 39% win rate to almost 60% win rate under you. The Mavericks made their first finals but lost to Miami Heat in 2006.
31. 1:23:34 – 1:27:37

    How I Balance Family and Business

    1. MCMark Cuban1:23:34

       points.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:35

       Tiffany.

    3. MCMark Cuban1:23:36

       Uh-oh.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:36

       [laughs] I spoke to Tiffany.

    5. MCMark Cuban1:23:39

       No.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:39

       I'm joking. I didn't really. [laughs]

    7. MCMark Cuban1:23:41

       Oh, okay. I mean, it wouldn't be bad, but I was just like-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:44

       [laughs]

    9. MCMark Cuban1:23:44

       ... "Okay, I'm surprised she talked to you."

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:46

        You nearly choked on your drink. [laughs]

    11. MCMark Cuban1:23:47

        [laughs]

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:48

        Maybe I should have. Um, Tiffany, you met Tiffany I think in a gym when you were 39.

    13. MCMark Cuban1:23:52

        At a gym. Yeah, late 30s, let's say. Yeah.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:54

        You got married.

    15. MCMark Cuban1:23:55

        Um, in 2002, so I was 44.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:58

        Three kids-

    17. MCMark Cuban1:23:59

        Yeah

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:59

        ... so far.

    19. MCMark Cuban1:24:00

        So far. [laughs]

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:01

        Yeah. [laughs]

    21. MCMark Cuban1:24:01

        No, I got snipped. [laughs]

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:03

        Oh, okay. Okay. So total. How does that feed into everything we've talked about around happiness and meaning and purpose and success?

    23. MCMark Cuban1:24:08

        Oh, supersedes everything.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:10

        Really?

    25. MCMark Cuban1:24:10

        Yeah. I mean, you got one part of my brain that is like business, business, business, business, you know, compete, compete, compete, and then you've got the better part of me that's my kids, my kids, my kids, um, and my wife, and they've just changed me for the better in a million ways I can't even describe, and there's nothing, you know, more important to me. Nothing. I may not be great as a dad, they'll tell you, you know, but, um, or a husband, but I do my best.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:36

        Why, why is that so important? So many of us sacrifice relationships in the pursuit of-

    27. MCMark Cuban1:24:41

        And I'm not saying I didn't, right?

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:42

        Yeah.

    29. MCMark Cuban1:24:42

        I mean, like, when I had MicroSolutions, I was dating a woman, and it was like, I mean, I, I was on a mission. I didn't settle down immediately in terms of, you know, family in front of business, but I got to that point.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:55

        In hindsight, do you think it would've been possible to do both at the same time?
32. 1:27:37 – 1:29:59

    Cost Plus Drugs: My Take On The US Healthcare Industry

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:38

       As you look forward, Mark, um, you've talked about your mortality, you've talked about, um, leaving Shark Tank, which I've just become a guest, uh, Shark on the show.

    2. MCMark Cuban1:27:48

       Yes.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:48

       Unfillable shoes.

    4. MCMark Cuban1:27:48

       They told me you were great.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:49

       [laughs] Yeah. Oh, good. Thank you. Um, you're 68 now. Um-

    6. MCMark Cuban1:27:53

       Yeah, no, 48.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:53

       [laughs] 48. You look 48, to be fair. You look good.

    8. MCMark Cuban1:27:56

       I appreciate it. Thank you.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:57

       But you, but you play a lot of sport still, right? So I see you playing-

    10. MCMark Cuban1:27:59

        Yeah

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:00

        ... basketball and stuff like that.

    12. MCMark Cuban1:28:00

        Everything, yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:01

        What do you wanna accomplish in this next season of your career? Cost Plus Drugs is this huge initiative.

    14. MCMark Cuban1:28:05

        Yeah, Cost Plus Drugs.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:06

        Yeah.

    16. MCMark Cuban1:28:06

        Obviously, I wanna change healthcare in America. It's a mess. And you know, it was great when, with the Mavs, someone would say, "Oh, great game," or whatever.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:13

        Yeah.

    18. MCMark Cuban1:28:13

        But when somebody walks up to me now and says, "Yeah, I got my drugs from costplusdrugs.com, it saves me, you know, $1,000 a month, and now I can afford them," I mean, that's big.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:22

        It's really something, Mark.

    20. MCMark Cuban1:28:23

        It's crazy.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:24

        It, it's crazy that someone like you would commit your life to this because regardless of what you've just described there, I think personally the biggest thing you're doing is just shining a massive light on an issue that doesn't want a light on it.

    22. MCMark Cuban1:28:37

        Oh, and I'll fix it. I promise you I will fix it, because there are three basically big companies that dominate all of healthcare. You know, hundreds of billions in sales. It, it's crazy. And you got 67% of people who get health insurance from their employer get it through an employer who's self-insured. And I bring that up because that means they take all the responsibility for the bills, that employer does, which means it's their responsibility in who they hire to do all their insurance and take care of all that stuff. And so I just go door to door with these CEOs, and I just give them shit left and right, and if I can get them to do the right thing to save themselves money and improve the health of their employees and families, I'll get a win there, and I'll completely change healthcare in this country, and that, that's the mission.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:24

        You and Trump have had a bit of a interesting relationship, rollercoaster relationship.

    24. MCMark Cuban1:29:27

        Yeah.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:27

        But I saw you, um, stood next to him talking about this initiative recently.

    26. MCMark Cuban1:29:31

        Trump X, yeah. Yeah.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:32

        Yeah.

    28. MCMark Cuban1:29:32

        Look, anything that makes people healthier and saves them money on their healthcare, that's fine by me. I don't care. You can give me some shit. I don't care. You know, the goal is the goal, and the goal is to change healthcare in this country so that it is what it is, truly a right. And in order to do that, we're gonna have to, you know, make it so that those big companies no longer dominate the industry.

33. 1:29:59 – 1:31:32

    The Hardest Question I Wasn’t Asked

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:59

       We have a closing tradition on this podcast-

    2. MCMark Cuban1:30:00

       Uh-huh

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:00

       ... where the last guest leaves the question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for.

    4. MCMark Cuban1:30:03

       Okay.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:04

       And I only get to read it when I open the book. Um, the question left for you is, this is a fucking unbelievable, it's an interesting one. What's the hardest question you weren't asked?

    6. MCMark Cuban1:30:14

       What's the hardest question I wasn't asked?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:17

       I'm not gonna ask you the question, just for the record.

    8. MCMark Cuban1:30:19

       I mean, the family questions you asked. I mean, what, what hits you most emotionally effectively is the hardest questions that I don't get asked.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:28

       Mark, thank you so much. Thank you for, for many reasons, for being a personal inspiration to me, because I remember multiple times where I stumbled across your life story or your work or your ideas at a critical moment that either gave me a bit more belief, that gave me some patience-

    10. MCMark Cuban1:30:42

        Good. I appreciate that

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:42

        ... um, that gave me some wisdom. Um, but also, you know, the, the other layer of context I now have is just having spent some time with you as a person, and the, one of the real things, uh, outside of the wisdom that I come away with and outside of the sense of purpose and family is, um, the realization that you can be both very, very successful and you can be a good person-

    12. MCMark Cuban1:31:02

        Well, I appreciate that

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:02

        ... and a happy person and a positive person.

    14. MCMark Cuban1:31:04

        Let's not go too far, but [laughs]

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:05

        No, but that's how you feel. That's the energy you have. And obviously I've sat here-

    16. MCMark Cuban1:31:07

        I appreciate it

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:07

        ... with 700 people, so-

    18. MCMark Cuban1:31:09

        Yeah

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:09

        ... you get to see lots of things.

    20. MCMark Cuban1:31:10

        Appreciate it.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:10

        So it's been a real pleasure, and thank you for the inspiration. Thank you.

    22. MCMark Cuban1:31:13

        Thank you, Steven. I really enjoyed it. It was great.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:14

        Oh, amazing. Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior, and the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check this video out, and I bet you you might love it

Episode duration: 1:31:33