Matthew McConaughey on owning your life instead of renting

1. 0:00 – 2:40

   Intro

   1. MMMatthew McConaughey0:00

      I think too many people quit too early. And we give ourself the options and the parachutes in things like relationships and work, self-help. And we pull that to the (censored) when we can still be flying, even though it may be a rocky flight. We pull it early and, okay, it's a safe move. Got down on the ground. What I was building didn't last, but most of the time, it could if you'd have hung in there. But if you have any ambition, resistance is gonna come. And so own that (censored) .

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:23

      Matthew.

   3. MMMatthew McConaughey0:24

      Matthew.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:24

      Matthew McConaughey! You've been able to climb to the very top of the mountain again and again and again. Is this natural talent, or is there anything transferrable?

   5. MMMatthew McConaughey0:33

      First, look at what's in your DNA. Like, I wanted to play basketball. But no matter how hard I worked, I was not the fastest nor the biggest. So look at what do you have an innate ability for? Then, what are you willing to hustle for? And this is very important 'cause some of us have innate ability, but we don't work for it. We grew up hardcore on hustle, hustle, hustle. Sleep was sin in my household. No TV. Mom would always say, "Why are you gonna watch someone doing something when you can go out in the world and do it yourself?" And then, number three, endurance. I remember this one time when I told my agent, "What I want to do is dramas. No more rom-coms." And this $8 million offer comes in for comedy. I read it and I said, "No, thank you." They come back with a $12 million offer. "No, thanks." $14.5 million offer. I said, "Let me read that again."

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:16

      (laughs)

   7. MMMatthew McConaughey1:16

      I ultimately said no, and I just bought myself a one-way ticket out of Hollywood. About 20 months after, offers came in. Would those have come if I'd have never stepped out? No. Now, number four, if you do this, you're most likely gonna have some success in life, and that is you.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:30

      And what about Admiral Bill McRaven?

   9. MMMatthew McConaughey1:32

      So he shared great wisdom with me when I was seeking out male mentors.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:38

       We reached out to Bill, and he wrote this letter for you. He said, "Dear Matthew..."

   11. MMMatthew McConaughey1:44

       Wow.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:47

       Are you able to share what you were seeking guidance from him about? To my regular listeners, I know you don't like it when I ask you to subscribe at the start of these conversations. I don't like saying it, I don't like it being in there. None of us like it. It's frustrating. Do you know what's also frustrating? It's also frustrating when I go into the back end of a YouTube channel and I see that 56% of you that listen frequently to this podcast haven't yet subscribed, and so many of you don't even know that you haven't subscribed, because I'll see in the comments section, you say to me, you go, "I didn't even realize I didn't subscribe." And that actually fuels the show. It's basically like you're making a donation to the show. So that's why I ask all the time, because it enables us to build and build and build and build, and we're going for the long term here. So, all I'd ask you is if you've seen this show before and you like it, help me, help my team here. Hit the subscribe button, and we'll continue to build this show for you. That's my promise. Thank you to all of you guys that do subscribe. It means the world to me. Let's get on

2. 2:40 – 6:40

   What Makes You the Person You Are Today?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:40

      with the show. Matthew, you're a s- particularly surprisingly artistic, creative, wise, yet materially successful individual, and it wasn't until I dove deeper into your story that I started to understand why that was, why you are, to me, in my mind, such an anomaly, because you are... You seem to be several things that don't often appear in the same place. So my first question to you is, what do I need to understand about your earliest context to understand who you are, the values you have, and the perspective that you view the world with?

   2. MMMatthew McConaughey3:25

      Fun question. Earliest on... Basic values of respect yourself, respect others. Give a damn about yourself, give a damn about others. Combined with a mother that s- wherever we went in the world, we might've been a little nervous to take a risk at, she was like, "Don't walk in there like you wanna buy the place. Walk in like you own it." So, a, a sort of boosting up of what you could say is massive ego, but also, you were not allowed to walk on your proverbial toes in our family. You were brought down, and if anyone in our family... If anything, I would say, going back, I think Mom, Mom and Dad maybe could've, uh, been a little more lenient with the successes that we had and let... When we did parade, when my brother did win the, the, the track meet and walked through the house like this, to allow him to do that in, in, in, uh... You weren't allowed to, you weren't allowed to do that. You were immediately humbled, no matter if you were coming right off a victory or a win or a box office hit. You weren't allowed to. At the same time, you were raised up once you were humbled. Um, that balance. We were taught resilience. Heavy, heavy-duty resilience. Baseline gratitude. "Quit asking me for new shoes. I'm gonna introduce you to the kid with no feet." Whoa. Okay. Like, sobering. These were... Were these aphorisms from my mother? Yeah, but they were pounded into us, all right? At the same time, I was... Went 36 years thinking I was Little Mr. Texas 'cause my mom told me I was, until 36 years later, I look at the trophy and it says I was runner-up. And I go, "Oh." Mom was, like, overselling us to ourselves. At the same time, "You better be humble." So it was almost like that. The out- anything exterior should not give you your identity, even though my mom's mouth proping, fibbing to us, going, "You're Little Mr. Texas." Or here, "Write this poem. I know you didn't write it, but it's really good, so turn that in for the seventh-grade poetry contest." "Okay." And I'll win. (laughs) It's a true story. Um, so this k- outlaw logic of my mom and my dad, also with work ethic. Hustle, hustle, hustle. Sleep was sin in my household. Sin. I saw my dad asleep one time in my life. I got up at eight o'clock on a Saturday morning and looked, peaked, went through the kitchen and peaked, and I saw him sleeping. I went and woke up my brothers. I'm like, "Dude, but Dad, Dad's still asleep."... he actually died two and a half months later. And connected that idea that, "Oh, if he slept in that late, he must not have been feeling well." If it was daylight, you couldn't be inside. There's a fierce sense of independence. Our ... H- 30 minutes of TV a night, max. Mom would always say, "Why are you going to watch someone doing something when you can go out in the world and do it yourself? Turn that damn thing off, get outside." Had to be outside. Like, "Go w- get out in the world. Go hustle. Figure it out. Be home at dark." That was just the understood rule.

3. 6:40 – 14:49

   Love and Values Instilled in Childhood

   1. MMMatthew McConaughey6:40

      What about love? We always knew we were loved. There was never a question that we were loved. As, as loving our, each other, loving mom and dad, being loved by mom and dad, and make ... And mom would always keep on, "Make sure you're loving yourself." I remember breakups, heartbroken. She'd let, she'd let us mourn. She was a great ear, very sensitive ear to that kind of, to, to pains like that, broken hearts, but only for a day. After a day, she'd crank up the AC/DC, man, and go like, "Now, skid up. You're worth it. Her loss. Come on. Get out of bed. Uh-uh. Come on. Uh-uh. Quit moping. Lift your head up. Come on. Come on, buddy. We got this. Uh-uh. Her loss." She'd give you the day, no more than that. Our love in the family was physical. My mom and dad married three times, divorced twice, to each other. They fought. I got a great story in Greenlights of them fighting and my mom bashing and breaking my dad's nose with the phone, him getting angry, her pulling a chef's knife out. Him dancing around, dodging these blades and then grabbing a ketchup bottle and like a matador going (imitates spitting sound) . (laughs) "Touché." (imitates spitting sound) And splattering her with it. And she's, "Getting it out ... I was just getting so damn ... And I'll cut, I'll cut you from your ******* ******." "Touché." And finally her getting so frustrated, throwing the knife down, crying, both of them crying, coming together, embrace, and going to the floor, on the, the linoleum kitchen floor, and making love. (sighs) No grudges. Uh-huh. No grounding. Get in trouble, which we did. One, we were always guilty when we got in trouble, but it was corporal. It was, "Take your licks. Get it over with. Take your licks. We're not gonna ground you 'cause that'd be taking away your time, and your time is the most valuable thing you got. So take your, take your licks. You're not gonna get injured. It's gonna hurt. And don't yell, 'cause if you yell on one of the licks, you're gonna get another one." Licks? Licks, with a belt. "I can't, I hate, and lying" were three things that you got in trouble for. If I said, "I can't," my dad's teeth would just start to go ... "Excuse me? Sure you're not just having trouble?" I remember this one time I was going out, doing my chores Saturday morning to mow the lawn, and, and I couldn't get the damn lawnmower to start. Checked everything, couldn't get it to start. I'm going inside, I said, "Dad, can you help me out? I, I can't get the lawnmower to start." And he turned around, I saw his molars and went ... And he got up, walked with me through the kitchen, through the garage, out the backyard, went to the lawnmower, messed around, pulled a couple of things out, da-da-da-da-da. After about 10 minutes, boom, cranked it. And while the lawnmower was running right there (imitates lawnmower sound) he came over to me and bent down and looked me in the eye and he goes, "See, son? You were just having trouble." I said, "I hate you" to my brother, 'cause I heard the word at school and I thought it made me feel like I was older. I thought it was like a, a teenage soap opera thing, and I was only nine. So I threw it out there one day at my own birthday party. My own birthday party, I said to my brother, "I hate you." And my mom, whoop, stopped the entire party. 40 kids my age in the backyard. Stopped it. My birthday. Stopped it. Pulled me around the side of the house and she says, "What did you say? You don't ever use that word, especially to someone in your family." Gave me licks on the side of the house and then went around. She said, "Dry your tears, resume, birthday party's back on. Don't ever use that word, especially to someone in your family." So what did I learn from "Don't say can't?" That if you're unable to do something, you could ... Even if you can't pull it off, you can go find help, which means you were just having trouble. What did I learn from getting a butt whooping for saying "I hate you" to my brother? Well, what I was learning is the antonyms to those words. Because saying "I can't," lying, and saying "I hate you" were bringing me pain. (laughs) So the opposite must bring pleasure, right? Tell the truth, love, and believe that you can. That was where the values how I remember them getting instilled in me. And to this day, I still have them. Trying to transfer them to my kids as well in a different way than my parents did, but I still, not even intellectually have them, I have them, they're in my, they're in my being now. So the, the, the love was tough. The love was phys- We hugged ni- 999 times more than we, more than ... The, the, the hands soothed much more than they hurt, 999 times out of 1000. But it was a ... We were a physical, hugging, loving family. You always went to bed with an I love you and a kiss. Even if it was ritual, which it was. Like a Sunday service. Gotta wake up. Even if I'm not listening to the damn preacher, I'm being subconsciously reminded that you should take a day out of the week to be...... at the most, number two, that you should go get sh- humbled and say thank you to a higher power, and thank you for the things that you have in your life, and thank you for the people you have in your life. And helping those people double down on those great attributes that they have. So th- th- the love was all there. Th- I, I'm happy to say that all of, I have people, you know, after that story I told about my mom and dad with the knife and the ketchup, people come to me, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry about your childhood. Oh my God. Have you had therapy?" I'm like, "No." And before we ... "Please, if you don't mind, d- don't, you feel, I feel like you're trespassing a little bit by giving, by coming out of the gate saying, 'Oh my God, you were abused.'" No, I wasn't abused and I never felt like I wasn't loved. Again, I felt like I let my parents down those times. I, did I fear my parents? Yep. Are there a lot of things I did not do as a kid that I should not have done for fear of the consequences? Yep. We knew we were loved. I knew I was loved. My brothers knew they were loved. My second brother's adopted. He knew he was loved. And it was hard love and it was tough love. And my mom and dad's love was passionate love. Um, I mean, divorced twice, married three times is a pretty good example of can't live with you, can't live without you. The one thing I remember being as crystal clear to me when I was eight years old, shaking hands with these two guys that turned out now later in life I know they were actually Dad's collectors (laughs) . I shook their hand, Oak Forest Country Club parking lot, sun was down in my eyes, they had shades on. I asked her, "Nice to meet you, sir. Nice to meet you, sir." I remember my eight-year-old mind going, "You know, everyone that my dad's making me say sir to, the one common denominator besides being older men, is they're all fathers." And in my head I went like, "Oh, that's what success is." If you become a father, you've succeeded. And that was in my eight-year-old, that was the math I did in my eight-year-old mind and it stuck with me. So the one thing I always knew is I wanted to be was a, a dad. I meet Camilla, fall in love. We make three children. I got 17, 15, 12. There's nothing that I can put ahead of the ... There's n- there's, let me put it this way. There's no time that I spend being a father that I do not feel like that is the absolute best time I could be spending.

4. 14:49 – 16:18

   Childhood Dreams and Career Aspirations

   1. SBSteven Bartlett14:49

      You've had that since you were eight?

   2. MMMatthew McConaughey14:51

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett14:52

      I've never heard that before.

   4. MMMatthew McConaughey14:53

      I longed for that. I thought that was when you made it.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett14:56

      Outside of wanting to be a father at eight years old, which is fascinating to me and something I want to, I do want to talk more about, because I think that's a lost, uh, goal in society-

   6. MMMatthew McConaughey15:05

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett15:05

      ... unfortunately, is at that age, when you, sort of in your adolescent years, if I'd asked you at the time what you want to be when you're older, in a professional context, what, what would your answer have been? 15, 16 years old.

   8. MMMatthew McConaughey15:17

      Washington Redskin running back.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett15:19

      (laughs)

   10. MMMatthew McConaughey15:21

       But coming about 16, as I started to find out playing football that I was not the fastest nor the biggest, um, it then became probably, I don't know if I really want to be this, but I sure am told I'm a, I'm a, I'm really good at debate. I'm a really good debater. W- I would win over arguments with the family when it would be like where to go or, you know, if I could go out and why. I would have a great presentation. Parents were like, "Geez," and they'd give us the floor. "Go ahead, take the floor. Let's hear your, let's, let's hear your argument." And I, they'd be like, "Damn." And so the, the word around 15, 16 was like, "You got to go to law school, buddy. Go to la- go, go be a lawyer and be, be the, be the family lawyer, man. We're ... God dang, man. You're a really good arguer. You make great arguments. And if it's not a great argument, damn, you got endurance. You'll just outlast people." And that became the thing. So I started to enjoy that. And that's where I was headed, toward- towards law school.

5. 16:18 – 24:03

   Youth Exchange in Australia

   1. SBSteven Bartlett16:18

      And I, I was, um, I was reading about your youth exchange year in Australia, and that you'd struggled a little bit in, in class and you were skipping class to read poems.

   2. MMMatthew McConaughey16:28

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett16:29

      By Lord Byron.

   4. MMMatthew McConaughey16:31

      Yeah. So I just, I, I graduated high school at home in Longview in America. And at 18, I'd just turned 18. 18 in my family was freedom. If you hadn't ... I remember this, if you hadn't learned it yet, you ain't gonna learn it. 18 was now no curfew. You've got it, you've got it. Come home when you want, do what you want, da-da-da. And I was rolling. I had a, I had, I- straight A's, mom and dad are happy. I got a job on the weekends and after school. I got 45 bucks cash in my pocket every day. I got a car, it's paid for. I'm dating the best looking girl at my school. Seeing, I don't know, a girl at the other school. I got a f- playing golf, I got a four handicap. I've had two holes in ones. I got no curfew. Talk about green lights, I'm rolling. I don't know what I want to do when I get out of high school exactly, but law school's coming up. But you know what? My mom goes, "What about exchange student?" Sweden and Australia were the two. And I chose Australia because I said, "I speak English and maybe Elle Macpherson's over there." (laughs) 18-year-old mind, right? Thinking right. So boom, I go to Australia. Uh, I was told I was gonna be living on the outskirts of Sydney, which sounded exciting to me. It was not the out- it was the outskirts, but it was three and a half hours from there and it was in a very small town, population 305 people, of Warnervale. And I remember pulling up that gravel driveway with that host family and when the brakes and they're like, "Welcome to Australia, mate." I was like, "All right. Not what I thought, but I can make this work." All of a sudden, I don't have my car. I ain't got my girlfriend. I don't know anyone I wanted to go see on the other side of town. I don't have my golf clubs. I ain't got money in my pocket.... and I got a 10:00 PM curfew, even on Friday and Saturday night. I'm going to school again. So I feel like I'm going in reverse. Socially, none of the friends at the school. They put me in my junior year over there because I went mid-semester, and they wanted me to go first half of the year with the juniors so I could carry on the second half of my year with what would become seniors. So I'm going, I feel like I'm going backwards. Socially, no one's got a, no one's got a car. Their interests seem to be different. The teachers are not... They're, they're... I'm, I'm, I'm failing. I'm, they're giving me Fs on everything. So I start skipping this class, going to the library and find Lord Byron. And I got my Walkman, and I remember I had U2's Rattle and Hum on cassette. I had Maxi Priest. Maxi Priest, he's got a great Cat Stevens cover. And, and an INXS album, which was an Aussie band. Hutchinson is the lead singer. And those were my rotation, especially Rattle and Hum. Rattle and Hum, very socially conscious album about oppression and, and, and, and silver and gold, man. That's what we're all after. Oh yeah, you think that's gonna get you to the higher ground? Oh, the evils of, of, of, you know, capitalism gone wrong and things like that, and freeing Nelson Mandela and all, um, worldly things that Bono and U2 were talking about were like, oh, making sense to me. I'm outside of my home. I'm in a foreign... I'm on a little island. You learn, you know, to have an objecti- first objective look back at your own life. When you leave what you know, you find out a lot about what you actually know. And all of a sudden, I'm seeing what my life was as that kid who got the money and I'm flowing and I'm starting to look back going, "I miss that." But I'm also going like, "You're kind of Good Time Rolling Charlie. You're, you're, you're, you're popular. Everything's going great for you." I didn't have any resistance in front of me, which was fine, but boy, now I got a lot of resistance in front of me. I don't have my friends to talk to. I got questions coming up. This family's very worr- uh, very awkward relationship with the family. They even wanted me to call them, uh, one night and said, "From now on, you'll, uh, address us as mom and pop." Which was a seminal moment, because many things had happened up until that point that were odd that I was going, "Okay, that's just a, a cultural difference. That, that's you, Makani. Hey, stay open here. That's a cultural difference." But I remember the night they said that, and it was the first time, and I needed it. It was six months into my trip. It's the first time I went, "No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no. I'm not doing that." It was clear. It was the first time I had clarity. Remember, at this time, I'm reading Lord Byron in the, in the, in the, the, the library. The principal's come to now see me and going to look, doesn't look like school's going good for you. We had this thing called work experience. Let's get you a job. You won't get paid. So I worked at the ANZ Bank. I worked at the barrister's office. I'm taking these odd jobs as a carpenter and all these different things. And my home life is this over in Australia. I am getting home, we have dinner at 5:00. We eat from 5:00 to 5:30. I clean the dishes. I am immediately going back to my room, take a bath, listen to one of those three album cassettes. Read Lord Byron in the bathtub, work one out. (laughs) Six nights a week. This... I'm running six miles a day. I've become vegetarian. I'm eating lettuce, fricking lettuce head with ketchup on it. I'm down to 135 pounds. I'm pretty doggone sure that I have, my job is to go to South Africa and, and I'm supposed to... I'm gonna be a monk, and that's, that's, that's where I'm going. Now, I look back, n- now, and I see, oh, I needed these disciplines to give me a sense of measurement each day of, oh, I've got my own thing going here, because my home life, I was lost, man. I'm lost. I don't have any f- I'm writing 16-page letters to myself and I'm returning them with a 17-page letter. Socratic letters to myself. About what? Existential, huge existential questions mixed in with, "Oh, everything is going great," trying to talk myself into keeping my head up. You know what I mean? But I showed, in hindsight, everyone's like, "Why didn't you come home early?" And I remember it very clearly, when I said, "Yes, I'll go become the exchange student," the ambassador, the American ambassador said, "Sign this contract that says you won't return till a full year unless there's a fatality in your family or you're majorly sick." And I said, "I'm not signing that. I'll sh- give you a handshake on it, man, 'cause I'm going over there for the year. I'm not pulling the parachute." And I remember that handshake, and I remember what my dad told me about what happens when two men shake a hand, that you don't need a contract, that that is the contract. And I had a certain honor with that. There was no way I was coming home. If I'd have come home, I'd have felt like I did my dad wrong. So while I'm over in Australia going inside out, imploding, I start to find a little power in the fact that, oh man, the harder this gets, the greater the reward there's gonna be on the other side

6. 24:03 – 26:36

   Studying Law in Texas and Wanting a Change

   1. MMMatthew McConaughey24:03

      once I get outta here. 'Cause it, 'cause it was non-negotiable, I was staying a year. So I never gave my mind the, the chance to go, well, you, you could go home. Uh-uh, that was never on my p- my proverbial mental table as a choice. So I start to get identity off the strength of making that choice. And the rest of the year became much easier, at least some of the troubles I was having-... I was laughing at. Wasn't going in the bathtub at 5:30 doing what I was doing as many, near as many times a week, if at all. All of a sudden, I'm kind of starting to live a little life and dance with it, going, "Yeah, man. Mm. It's just not easy, but this is how it is. We got it. We got..." I'm writing, writing first poems in there that I wrote.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett24:44

      And then life brings you back to Texas to study law.

   3. MMMatthew McConaughey24:47

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett24:48

      Which, um, doesn't end up working out for you, because in your sophomore year, you start questioning yourself, I think based on this little book.

   5. MMMatthew McConaughey24:57

      Yep. That book right there was a gift.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett25:01

      So you're studying law, and you start questioning yourself because of something you read in this book?

   7. MMMatthew McConaughey25:07

      So this book ... Pretty much it was the end of my sophomore year. I'm headed towards law school, going to take my finals. I was a study bug. I made A's across the board. And all of a sudden, for the first time in my life, I go, "Dude, you got this. You don't need to study this anymore." And I shut my books. I'd never done that before. And now I got two hours before my first exam. And I look over, and there's this stack of magazines over here. Sports Illustrated, Playboys, Penthouse. I'm like, "Oh, I like sports. I like women too. Let's check these out." I get 'em ... I flip through. Eh, nothing, nothing, nothing. After about the seventh magazine deep, I look down, and this book is laying there, and this is what's facing me. And this ... It was in the middle of the stack of the magazines. And I look at it, and I go, "The greatest salesman in the world." And I said it aloud, I go, "Well, who's that?" (laughs) I pick it up, and I start reading. First chapter's about forming good habits and becoming their slave. And I remember thinking, "Well, if you're gonna go against yourself and go to law school, and you're just going to say, 'Well, yeah, I think I'll do it,' that's not, that's not a good habit, McConaughey. That's not a good habit for you. You might be missing out on something. You better create a new habit of just doing what you think you were expected to do." That was the thinking in my mind. And I said, "All right. Well, I'm gonna ... I wanna go to film school. I don't wanna go to law school. I wanna go to film school."

7. 26:36 – 36:36

   Telling His Dad He Wants to Go to Film School

   1. SBSteven Bartlett26:37

      Simply because the book mentioned that having the habit of doing something just because you think you should or can is not good enough.

   2. MMMatthew McConaughey26:43

      I even ... That part, I, I verbalized that. It doesn't seem to say that directly. Just saying, "I will form good habits and become their slave." And I was like, "If I go to law school, that's making me a slave to a bad habit."

   3. SBSteven Bartlett26:57

      And the bad habit being?

   4. MMMatthew McConaughey26:58

      Bad habit being you'd be good at it. It's kind of what you're supposed to do. It's all you've ever kind of thought you were doing. It's what everyone expects you to do in the family. But remember, I'm stay- it's keeping me up at night. Ah, law school. Oh, my 20s, I don't know." I've also got this other thing. I've got a friend telling me, "Your short stories are good, man. You can tell a good story. What are we ... Filmmaking. You could tell them that." That sounds fun. Then I go, "My dad's paying for school. I gotta get permission from him first." So I go, "Okay, what's a good time to call him?" And I remember I planned it out. I said ... It was Monday and I said, "I'll call him now." I said, "No, no, no. He's at work. Don't call him now at work. He's, he'll, he doesn't, won't be able to compartmentalize. This is gonna come out of left field for him. He's in the middle of pipe sales, right?" So I called him tonight and said, "No, no, no. Monday, back from work, it's a stressful day. Tuesday night, 7:30." Second day of the week. He's into the workweek. He'll have eaten dinner. He's on the couch having a beer with Mom. Called him at 7:36 PM. I remember the number. "Hey, pop." "Hey, what's up, monkey man?" Said, "Listen, can I talk to you about something?" "Sure." I said, "Dad, I don't want to go to law school anymore. I want to go to film school." And I'm like, a little bead of sweat starts to go down the back of my neck. I'm like, "Here it comes." "You wanna what?" I thought he was going to go into all this stuff about law, my ass. You think I'm ... That can be a hobby, but that's not a real job. I thought all this was coming. And after about a five-second pause, he goes, I hear this: "Are you sure that's what you want to do?" "Yes, sir." Another long pause. Then I hear, "Well, don't half-ass it." And I remember just beaming, hopping up, just like ... (laughs) Yes. Launchpad, man. My dad not only said okay, in the way he said, "Don't half-ass it" was also, "Okay, let's go big boy. Own that shit. Get some leverage. Get some horsepower behind where you're going. Go do it." And I remember to this day, and I've learned this later, I think, from becoming a father. Part of what I believe happened to him and why he said that to me that way on that call was the way that I asked him, how I just ... I wasn't really asking, was I? "I don't want to go to law school, Dad. I want to go to film school." I didn't stutter. He heard his son saying, "This is what I want to do." And what I think happened to him in that moment is what I think any father, any parent loves, is you, you raise your kids in a certain way, and you give them a guideline, a ladder to climb, and here's the guidelines. If you do it this way, you're most likely going to have some success in life, and it'll work out for you. And then when we do it that way, we can be proud parents. But what do we really want to happen when our parents, when our kids are out of the house and they're on their own? We kind of want them to call one day and go, "I'm breaking out. I'm going my own way. I'm going my own way." And as a parent, we go, as much as it may scare us, we're going, "Yes. I gave my kid the confidence and the courage and the foundation to say they're going to go their own way." And in a way, I think every parent honors and loves that moment, and I heard my dad when he didn't hear me stutter, when he heard me directly say what I said, and I, I wasn't really asking him, even though, uh, I was, out of respect, asking him.... the way I said that I was when I asked him, and I think he felt that. Man, don't half-ass it.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett30:39

      Don't half-ass it. As a philosophy for life, how important has that proven to be since then? 'Cause you've remembered it and I've heard you-

   6. MMMatthew McConaughey30:49

      Yep.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett30:50

      ... reference it as being important.

   8. MMMatthew McConaughey30:52

      Look, I've, it's be-, it's become quite. And again, not, it's become more than intellectually important or more than something, I don't, uh, you know, I don't need to put it on my fridge to remind me. Um, it has become important in relationships. It has become important in work. It has become important in s- self-help. It has become important for my own spirituality. It's become important for me as a father, as a husband. Relationship-wise, don't half-ass it. What that's turned into me is another sort of theory I have, and I call it own don't rent. Go in with an owner's mindset into relationships. Most relationships that we make, hire an assistant or girlfriend/boyfriend, most of them don't last the whole life. But I believe that if you go into those with the idea that I want it to be a lifer. "If this works out, hopefully this is forever." Usually they don't end up being that, but the owner's mentality will give you, that per- you and that person, the dignity and the power to go, "They, we can be everything we can be in this relationship." And if it doesn't work out, we say it didn't work out. But if I'm going with a renter's mentality, I flip it, "Yeah, uh, I'll do this for a few weeks. Yeah, h- this, I don't know if this kid's gonna make it. Well, maybe, maybe a couple months." You're not gonna get the most out of that person.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett32:13

      But it was like you in Australia. You went in committed to owning that full experience and not leaving.

   10. MMMatthew McConaughey32:18

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett32:18

       And there's some, there's something really, people tell me all the time, especially married people, 'cause I ask them, I say, "What's, why do people get married? Why don't you just, you know, why do you need the contract?" And they talk to me about how going in with comm- Commitment itself changes how you deal with the inevitability of the messiness, the messiness that you saw in your parents' relationships and the, and, and challenge itself. Like, ch- challenge, as you saw in Australia but also in your parents' marriage, is like in-built into all things meaningful. And if you go in with that renter mentality, the first red light, you-

   12. MMMatthew McConaughey32:48

       You're out. You know what you do? Something happens and you're like, "Oh, this is a sign of things to come. Oh, this is only gonna get wor-" No, when you get married, you're like, "We're owning this. Oh, my alarms, the spider sense, my alarms didn't start going off, 'cause we're gonna work through this. And if it does become a habit, we'll work through it." Or it's a one-off and I just gotta put up with it, because they like to do what they're doing more than I don't like them doing that (laughs) which is another good measurement, you know?

   13. SBSteven Bartlett33:17

       I guess it begets the question about the, the role or the benefit of having plan Bs.

   14. MMMatthew McConaughey33:21

       Right.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett33:21

       Because we're increasingly told to have plan B in a relationship, or plan C, D, and E, and, and in work, a plan C, D, and E, and...

   16. MMMatthew McConaughey33:28

       Options-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett33:29

       Yeah.

   18. MMMatthew McConaughey33:29

       ... can make us a tyrant. Too many options can make a tyrant of any of us, man.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett33:34

       (laughs) Yeah.

   20. MMMatthew McConaughey33:35

       You know what I mean? So can conveniences. You know what I mean?

   21. SBSteven Bartlett33:38

       Yeah.

   22. MMMatthew McConaughey33:38

       And you, when you don't give yourself that option, and mind you, there's plenty of divorces out there that were necessary and were good for both of them. (snaps fingers) Bravo. But I think there's more divorces because someone had a little, gave themself the out, had the renter's mentality. "Ooh, first sign of smoke, I'm gonna say there's fire. Be easier to get outta here, path of least resistance." Sorry, I think too many people quit. I think that's, th- that- that's more a problem than the divorces that are ones that turned out to be good.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett34:17

       So many people are at that stage in their life where they're, they might have that bad habit that you described. They might know that they're in a situation which isn't for them. Maybe their parents gave them this idea, society pushed them into that position, and, uh, I think it's the uncertainty that keeps them trapped. Like, the certain misery is often much more appealing than the uncertainty.

   24. MMMatthew McConaughey34:41

       Yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett34:42

       And I, I just want you, you managed to-

   26. MMMatthew McConaughey34:43

       All right.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett34:44

       ... to make that change, which is quite rare.

   28. MMMatthew McConaughey34:46

       Well, what that reminds me of is I started to become a little cynical, which is different than being skeptical. I believe in, we go from innocence when we're born to naivete to skepticism where we're discerning and discriminate on choices. We have judgment. And then the next one is off the cliff what I think is cynicism. The misery of cynicism is a hell of a lot easier than the optimism and belief of skepticism.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett35:15

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MMMatthew McConaughey35:17

       Hell of a lot easier. It's a, ah, easy, bam, put it down. Oh, that's hard, bam, I'm out. The individuality, bam, nah, man, if it's hard, if I sweat, don't do it, uh-uh. Bam, easier to put him down. "Hey, everyone just laughed at my joke. (laughs) See, it was easy. I was the life of the party." I think less respected once you leave that situation, but you've, you, you've, now you're living in, in, in doubt and you're let- and you're also doubting yourself, that, "Ah, I don't wanna work that hard. I don't wanna see if I can make that work anymore. I don't wanna give that person the benefit of the doubt, 'cause it can be a lot of work and they're gonna fucking screw up and I'm gonna go, 'Told you so.' Nah, so let's not even try it. Or if I do try it, let's just rent." Let's do more than just sign that prenup. (laughs) Or y- know what I mean?
8. 36:36 – 41:08

   What’s Going On With Young Men

   1. SBSteven Bartlett36:36

      Before we started recording, w- we were having a little bit of a chat about a thought that's been on my mind recently about, um, how independence and I guess an abundance of choice kind of links to that, might be leading people astray. Because the most ... uh, it, it appears to me the most fulfilled people that I know, generally have a lot of dependence.

   2. MMMatthew McConaughey36:52

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett36:52

      Uh, the culture we live in tells us to, like, be your own boss, stand on your own two feet. More people are lonely than ever, less friends than ever, less likely to have kids, less likely to get married, and it feels like independence, uh ... And those people often, I, I think are struggling. Uh, I, I think of so many of my friends, one in particular that I've mentioned a few times who ... 38 years old, living the life of independence, like a picture of independence.

   4. MMMatthew McConaughey37:14

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett37:15

      Sky-rise apartment, single, no kids, freelancer, so not going to a team-

   6. MMMatthew McConaughey37:20

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett37:20

      ... working from his home.

   8. MMMatthew McConaughey37:20

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett37:21

      And then, you know, one of my best friends and, uh, six months later I see him in person and he's flown to America, been baptized, and tells me that for three or four months he just couldn't get out of bed. There was no meaning in his life, and so now he's a-

   10. MMMatthew McConaughey37:35

       Interesting.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett37:36

       ... s- s- you know, s- strongly Christian man. And we're seeing this, especially with young men in particular. We're seeing more and more of them turn to religion.

   12. MMMatthew McConaughey37:42

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett37:43

       Um, and I'm wondering what's going on there?

   14. MMMatthew McConaughey37:45

       Yeah. Let's stay on young men for a while, and this does not exclude young women, but for the sake of this conversation, I'm just gonna block it over here and say young men. We want and need to be relied on. We want and need to be depended on. And a sheer independent individual lifestyle with nothing that you're responsible for outside of what you only need, nothing, no other gardens you have to tend to career, relationally, no other collective communal, "Oh, thank you. I needed that." Uh, uh, w- who, who relies on us? How much do we need to rely on others is another question. And I don't know that answer. Be fun to discuss it. How much do we need to be ... How much do we need to depend on others? I, I, one of my f- Self-reliance is at the top of my value system, and I don't think it is contradictory to faith. I actually think that free will and fate, again, are here. As a believer, I believe that it's all been written. At the same time, I believes God's going, "I need your hands on the wheel, man."

   15. SBSteven Bartlett39:14

       Mm.

   16. MMMatthew McConaughey39:15

       "Hey, you're steering this, okay? Don't just rely on fate." (laughs) Uh, too many people doing that, man. I've had my agnostic years where I was not believer at all. Fully in self-reliance. On me everything. And I think it was such a valuable few years because I did need to call myself on some shit. I did need to say, "The buck stops here with you, McConaughey." I did need to b- become a ... quit becoming such a repeat offender. You know, I was sinning, which means to miss the mark, miss, have bad aim. Literally, w- well, it comes from an archery term. To sin means to miss the mark. When you think about it like that, it becomes more practical, especially for us, like, agnostics and stuff. I was missing the mark and it was time for me ... I didn't wanna keep forgiving myself on Sunday and then repeat and do the same shit again Monday through Friday and then go, "Oh, now I can be forgiven." I was like, "No, man. Forgive me Father? I know what I'm doing and I'm keep doing it." Cut the shit, McConaughey. Quit giving yourself that out, that parachute. Even though you may have it, even though w- Word says grace of God will forgive you, yet you need to ... I needed to strong-arm myself, put my damn hands on the wheel, look in the mirror and go, "It's all on you," 'cause it is. At the same time, when I came out of that and was like, "Oh, those two aren't mutually exclusive, the self-reliance and belief," I heard God applauding (hands clapping) , going, "Thank you (laughs) . I need more, more like you that go, 'Yes, I'm responsible. The choices I make today have to do with where I'll be tomorrow. Yes, m- they have consequences. My choices matter. Thank you.'" That's what I heard. But it wasn't exclusive of having faith and belief again.

9. 41:08 – 42:29

   What Made You Drift?

   1. MMMatthew McConaughey41:08

   2. SBSteven Bartlett41:08

      What caused that period of your life in your late 20s where you, you started to drift? 'Cause at that time, you'd had your s- first success-

   3. MMMatthew McConaughey41:15

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett41:16

      ... as an actor. Um ...

   5. MMMatthew McConaughey41:19

      I think I was living, I was giving, I gave myself the luxury of living that fully independent top-of-the-penthouse. I got money. I decided to go check into Chateau Marmont. I lay down $120,000 tab and said, "Let me know when that's out." Me and my dog. Couple years. Bought a pair of leather pants and a motorcycle.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett41:44

      (laughs)

   7. MMMatthew McConaughey41:44

      Told myself, "The next two years, if you ever think you've had too many, order another one. Next two years you ever go, 'Oh, maybe I should have a single?' Order a double." I exercised it in as, in as healthy way as I could, but I was sheerly independent and I did not ... I was swimming. I was transient. It was fun, but when every day's a Saturday and every night's a Saturday night, started looking for a little ... I need to break a sweat here. I need ... I ... Where's the resistance? Where's m- I need my Monday morning literally and I need it here and I need it faith, faith-wise.

10. 42:29 – 50:11

    The Loss of Your Father

    1. MMMatthew McConaughey42:29

    2. SBSteven Bartlett42:29

       Did the loss of your father around, um, w- in your 20s have a big impact on this sort of un-anchoring?

    3. MMMatthew McConaughey42:37

       No. Loss of the father dropped the anchor deeper and got more secure.That was '92. That was five days into shooting my first film, Dazed and Confused. The loss of him, one, which was ... I didn't think he could die. Obviously, he could and he did, and it was, uh, it took my mother to kill him, (laughs) as you know from the story. (laughs) They made love on a Monday morning, he had a heart attack.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett43:04

       It's not a bad way to go. I mean ... (laughs)

    5. MMMatthew McConaughey43:06

       He called it. He called it.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett43:07

       For real?

    7. MMMatthew McConaughey43:07

       He told me and my brothers, "Boys, when I'm going to go, when I go, I'm going to be making love to your mother." And damn it if he didn't do it. But him passing away, after the shock in the morning, really woke me up to go, "Oh, you don't have that," talking a- pa- parachutes again, "You don't have that one being in your life that has your back." That, in my mind, was above government, above religion, everything. Oh, if I'm really in a pinch, Dad's got my back. You don't have that anymore, Matthew. So all the things he taught you that you've kind of been acting like, it's time to become those and put your ass on the line. Me. I remember I ... That's around the time I carved into a tree. In the middle of the night, I woke up and these words were just stuck, and I went and I was like, "I just... Be less impressed and more involved." And my father passing on, the world got flat. Things that I revered, oh wow, mortal things that I revered, people, places, all of a sudden, (whistles) my eye got level. Things that I was patronizing and condescending and looking down my nose at (whistles) rose up to eye level. And I was like, "Time to become a man." Walk forward. Peripheral vision. Get it. Own yourself. Walk forward with more courage and start becoming the man you want to be instead of acting like it and putting it off.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett44:39

       Be less impressed and more involved.

    9. MMMatthew McConaughey44:40

       More involved. Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett44:41

        What, what did you mean by that and where did that come from?

    11. MMMatthew McConaughey44:44

        It came from... We grew up hardcore on gratitude. I'm, I'm a very thankful guy. In the end, being thankful and having gratitude is very important. But you can't stop there because too much just, "Oh, I'm so happy to be here," you're so impressed to be here, "Thank you for having me," which we should have, but if you live only there, I can't even... we, we can't be present and be involved in whatever we're doing and do it as well as we want to do it. You gotta go, (whistles) "Nope, thank you for letting me be here and I'm supposed to be here. Now let's go." If I'm even talking to you, if I'm here going, "Man, I'm so happy to be here," if I'm just happy to be here and go no further than that, I can't have... we can't have this conversation. I'm, I'm not, I'm not the... I won't be there yet. I can't be grounded enough to have, have it right here. I'd be like... I, I'd anticipate my thoughts, I'd, you know, say something that may... it's only the pretty stuff and not the ugly stuff, or, oh, don't want to be mean. So to be involved allowed me to be more honest and have more courage. When we're involved, we're more honest and have more courage to do what we're fashioned to do how we're fashioned to do it. But if we're only impressed, you know, and I've had these moments. When I met the Coen brothers, they're my favorite directors. I revered them. I had dinner with them. I blew it. And I fumbled over my oh, dammit, man. Uh, because I was nervous. I was so happy to be there. I was so impressed to be sitting down with the Coen brothers and not involved enough to sit there and have a conversation. And I look back that night and I go, "That's why they never cast me in anything. I blew it that night."

    12. SBSteven Bartlett46:18

        (laughs)

    13. MMMatthew McConaughey46:18

        And I've since seen them and I was like, "That night we met, I want a do-over." Coen brothers, if you're out there, I want a do-over.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett46:23

        (laughs)

    15. MMMatthew McConaughey46:25

        (laughs)

    16. SBSteven Bartlett46:25

        This is really transferable advice to both me as a podcaster, 'cause I get to meet so many of the people that I've admired for so long, especially being a kid from the UK, but also generally for people just going to, to job interviews and trying out for things, that you really can inadvertently, like, lower your perceived value just by being impressed and not involved.

    17. MMMatthew McConaughey46:43

        Probably won't get hired that way, either.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett46:44

        Yeah.

    19. MMMatthew McConaughey46:45

        What's the, what's the hiring person want to see? Someone who's respectful. But if you hold them rever- in reverence, they're like... You know, with- so many ways to say it.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett46:58

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MMMatthew McConaughey46:58

        I don't need my ass kissed, man. I want to hear... I want to meet you. I want, I want... Don't agree with me on everything. You know, I want to hear you, "Ah!" Butt back. And they had a reason behind it. They weren't, you know, being negative for, or cynical, or they weren't just trying to be contrary for contraries. The reason they actually had thought about that and it was challenging. Ah! Look at that in relationships. Girls, guys, what are we like? Not the one that's like, "Yeah, whatever you want to do." You want someone who goes like, "Oh, how about this? I got this other idea." Ooh. Ooh. Interesting.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett47:30

        You just reminded me of a guy I interviewed the other day called Jonah. And Jonah, at the very end of the call, young guy, turned around to me and said, "Do you know, by the way, I think you should completely change..." This particular company he was going to be joining of mine. "Completely change the branding. I don't think it's good enough." And I paused and I said to him, I'll never forget what I said. I said, "I want to say two things to you, Jonah. First..." I jokingly went, "How dare you?" And secondly, "That is the best thing you have said in the last hour." Because for me, he, he did exactly what you did.

    23. MMMatthew McConaughey47:58

        Yeah.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett47:58

        He wasn't impressed. He was involved, and he challenged... He told me to, that basically our entire brand for this particular company needed to be changed and redone. So like-

    25. MMMatthew McConaughey48:06

        Right.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett48:06

        ... how dare you and that is the best (laughs) thing you have said.

    27. MMMatthew McConaughey48:09

        Yes. Right.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett48:10

        Because he did exactly what you said.

    29. MMMatthew McConaughey48:11

        Yay.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett48:11

        It made me think, oh, okay, interesting.
11. 50:11 – 54:01

    Do You Miss Your Dad?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett50:11

       Do you miss him?

    2. MMMatthew McConaughey50:13

       Yeah. I miss him creatively the most, because he, he... I found out later, and I didn't know he was doing this, like, I found out later in life, years after he passed away, we found all these old paintings in the garage and we found this pottery that he made. And he loved... He had collected art and he loved charcoal paintings and pencil black and whites. I had no idea he practiced art or, or liked it. And so, when I'm reading a script or I'm interested in doing a film, I still think, "Ah, I would love to sh- I would loved to have sent this to Dad and gone, 'What do you think?' And talked about, 'Hey, you know anybody like this? What do you think of this character? What do you think of this scenario? Hey, you know any men like this?'" Because I base a lot of my characters off of people that I met. Through him, I've based a whole lot. There's been many characters that are based on parts of my brother Pat, who was my hero growing up. And there's a lot of characters I've met through my older brother Rooster, but all those came through Dad. And I would love to, I miss having those... I wish I could have those conversations with him. I- he would've loved... The other night we were at Toronto Film Festival premiering Lost Bus. My mom was in it. She's 93. My little, my son's in it. That could've been for, uh... He would've come to Santa Fe with Mom. You know? He didn't, Mom wanted, Mom wants to be on the stage. Mom, every performance I've ever done, she's like, "You did great, Matthew. I see where you get it from."

    3. SBSteven Bartlett51:48

       (laughs) .

    4. MMMatthew McConaughey51:48

       All right. Dad didn't want to be on the stage. He could take the stage, but he would've, he would've seen from the beginning me doing my thing from the front row and been like, "There you go, buddy." So, I miss him as a creative partner and in sharing the declarations when you have a red carpet and, and hearing, "What's your opinion on that? Hey, what movie-" Watching movies with him. We never watched movies. I miss that. Um, and his hands, man. He had these healing hands. And we'd have been buddies by now, right? I would've... Philosophically, wherever we had our differences, he would've enjoyed the debates instead of looking at me at 16 going, "Who the hell do you think you are talking, bucking like that?" Which is what led him to go, "You're a great debater. Oh, I want you to be the family lawyer." But we'd have been buddies, because at 18 was the freedom rite of passage. That's when he goes (whistles) , "If you ain't learned it by now, you ain't gonna learn it." So, we would've, I wouldn't have had to hear... This is a time when I'm still hearing about the experiences of yesterday and last night-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett53:00

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MMMatthew McConaughey53:01

       ... yearning to one day be able to be there and be part of those stories. And we did get a year together where we got to be part of the same stories, which meant so much to me. But I would've had years of that together.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett53:13

       Do you think he would've been surprised by the life you've lived s- subsequently?

    8. MMMatthew McConaughey53:21

       No. My family's got a, got an odd thing. They aren't surprised by shit, man (laughs) .

    9. SBSteven Bartlett53:31

       (laughs) .

    10. MMMatthew McConaughey53:31

        Especially any of my success. I mean, my brothers hadn't even seen all my movies (laughs) .

    11. SBSteven Bartlett53:45

        (laughs) .

    12. MMMatthew McConaughey53:45

        If I invited them to the premier in Toronto the other night, they'd have found every excuse they could not to go and wouldn't have come. They don't disrespect or love me any less for it, it's just like, "Man, we know you little brother."

    13. SBSteven Bartlett53:57

        There's something beautiful in that.

12. 54:01 – 1:01:49

    Matthew’s 10 Goals in Life

    1. SBSteven Bartlett54:01

       Do you remember these?

    2. MMMatthew McConaughey54:02

       Mm-hmm. Yes.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett54:03

       You wrote this roughly around the same time in '92. Roughly actually when I was born, funnily enough. I saw the date on the top and thought, "Oh, that's a few days after my birthday."

    4. MMMatthew McConaughey54:10

       Ah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett54:11

       And again, you put fatherhood number one, but there's a, a series of other things on this list of your ten goals in life.

    6. MMMatthew McConaughey54:17

       Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett54:17

       Which you wrote in 1992. As you reflect on those goals, do you wish you hadn't written any of them? And is there anything else you wish you had written?

    8. MMMatthew McConaughey54:26

       No, that, that, that, I wouldn't change a thing about it.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett54:29

       Ten goals in life. Become a father. Find and keep a woman for me. Keep my relationship with God. Chase my best self. Be an egotistical util-utilitarian.

    10. MMMatthew McConaughey54:38

        Utilitarian.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett54:38

        Take more risks. Stay close to mom and family. Win an Oscar for Best Actor. Look back and enjoy the view. Just keep living.

    12. MMMatthew McConaughey54:47

        I don't know what I'd add to that.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett54:49

        One of the things that you talk, you've talked a few times about is this idea of, like, y- needing resistance.

    14. MMMatthew McConaughey54:54

        Yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett54:55

        You said it two or three times.

    16. MMMatthew McConaughey54:56

        Yeah.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett54:56

        And we're going back to what it is to be a man and what it is to be a well-orientated, stable man.... meeting resistance. Is that a goal to aim for? Is that-

    18. MMMatthew McConaughey55:08

        Uh, I think it's just a necessary, necessity for ... having more than just an individual life at the top of the high rise with money. If that's, if you're successful, do that. I mean, I'm supposing that in, whether it's different words, your friend went to Christianity for this, for a very similar reason.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett55:36

        Yeah.

    20. MMMatthew McConaughey55:36

        It's like certain amount of guilt's very healthy. It helps us, keeps us, it's boundaries.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett55:44

        Boundaries.

    22. MMMatthew McConaughey55:44

        Without any shame, without any embarrassment, without any guilt, tell me it's all just four dimensional? Where's the form? Where's the ar- where's the art? It's, it's four dimensional, it has no f- form. You gotta have gravity to have form, you gotta have some resistance to have some form. You gotta push off of something to go somewhere. You gotta be ... It's very hard when you're just floating and with no gravity and no resistance to actually pursue a north star. You have no leverage.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett56:15

        Mm-hmm.

    24. MMMatthew McConaughey56:15

        You're s- you're f- f- floating. Where's the art? Probably more anarchy than art. So resistance gives form. Heard a great artist say this, "Limitations reveal style."

    25. SBSteven Bartlett56:36

        Hmm.

    26. MMMatthew McConaughey56:39

        Resistance. Something to go, or else ... It's like in green lights. If life's just nothing but green lights, if you got no yellows and reds, no reasons to pause or crisises that stop you, resistance? This, what are you just g- gonna go in circles? 'Til you run outta gas and get dizzy? I don't see that, uh, how do we evolve or devolve without resistance? Now, picking the right resistance is, is an art in itself. It's challenging. I've been clumsy with it in my life. When, especially when I got famous and got success, man, the, enough people telling me, "I love you," and the caviar and the champagne, I was like, "What the shit? Why me? I don't deserve any of this. What did I d- ... " and I'd, boosh, I'd, I'd fuck things up on purpose just to ch- say like, uh, I tripped myself running downhill so I could bloody my own nose and go, "Ah, now I can feel. Okay, okay, now my heels are on the ground." I mean, it was clumsy. So I don't think we need the kind of resistance that we create that can harm us or get in our way for getting in our way say, 'cause I've come to learn, and I think we all are, no, when things are going really well, resistance is gonna come if you sta- if you stay with, if you're a, if you have any ambition, resistance is gonna come.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett58:04

        We often see resistance as a form of failure, and something that we should endeavor to avoid. You think about the avoidance of like people building families or even y- you know, many people consider that we're living in a bit of a comfort crisis. This is slightly a different sort of analogy, but most of the diseases that we have today, whether they're diseases of, I don't know, the mind, like, you know, people feeling lonely and isolated, or physical diseases, 80% of Americans getting back pain-

    28. MMMatthew McConaughey58:29

        Yeah.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett58:29

        ... but no one in the Hadza tribe in Africa getting back pain.

    30. MMMatthew McConaughey58:32

        Yeah.
13. 1:01:49 – 1:07:31

    Doing the Hard Thing Today

    1. MMMatthew McConaughey1:01:49

       you feel about it?

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:49

       I mean, ex- exactly what you've said, but th- the studies, uh, have just, that have just come out using different things like ChatGPT have actually proven what you just said to be true. That when people use AI to produce a piece of work, not only can't they recall what they've made, but they also start speaking in language more like the AI.

    3. MMMatthew McConaughey1:02:08

       Oh.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:08

       So they start to lose their own voice. But I mean, yeah, I mean, for, f- through history, people like Richard Feynman, the physicist has said the best way to learn something is to learn it and then to go through the pain of writing it-

    5. MMMatthew McConaughey1:02:20

       Right.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:20

       ... condensing it down to a simple truth, like you do so often in your new book, Poems and Prayers, and then sharing it with the world, and then getting the feedback. And if, if the world understood it like you meant it, like that poem you just shared, you, you, you understand it-

    7. MMMatthew McConaughey1:02:33

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:33

       ... that's evidence that you get it.

    9. MMMatthew McConaughey1:02:35

       Right.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:35

        So I think AI is gonna be great for me saying something to you, but not learning something myself. And I think if, you know, if you wanna defend creativity and innovation and the ability to think, you actually have a huge opportunity, which is to go left when everyone's going right.

    11. MMMatthew McConaughey1:02:50

        Right.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:50

        And it goes to what you were saying there. You were talking about be careful when you m- mess, mess with incentives. Like, be careful when you choose the easier road. Be careful of the unintended consequences. And AI is a prime example of an unintended consequence of you taking the easier road-

    13. MMMatthew McConaughey1:03:07

        Yeah.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:08

        ... today.

    15. MMMatthew McConaughey1:03:08

        Yeah.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:08

        And, you know, I just actually made a video about this, funnily enough, just, just warning my audience about when something a- appears to be like a short-term friend, it's usually a long-term enemy.

    17. MMMatthew McConaughey1:03:18

        Mm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:19

        Like when, you know-

    19. MMMatthew McConaughey1:03:19

        Yeah.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:20

        ... when you choose easy today, you choose hard tomorrow, and there's always a tradeoff.

    21. MMMatthew McConaughey1:03:25

        Right, right.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:27

        But, but if-

    23. MMMatthew McConaughey1:03:27

        You think if you choose hard today, you usually get easy tomorrow?

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:35

        I mean, there's a, there's obviously a ton of nuance to this, but, um, in many contexts, yes. So for example, my... I think of... I was thinking of my father. My father would never have... He would avoid conflict at all costs. He would avoid the difficult conversation. And when I zoom out over the, the decades of his life and marriage, I go, "Man, that cost you big time."

    25. MMMatthew McConaughey1:03:59

        It caught up with him.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:00

        Oh my God. And me inverting that in my own life-

    27. MMMatthew McConaughey1:04:04

        Right.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:04

        ... and continually just confronting it head on has had the complete opposite effect. You never... You know like when you were talking about being a young man and making that decision, 'cause you had that voice in your head saying, "Law might not be my thing," and you made that c- phone call to your father?

    29. MMMatthew McConaughey1:04:19

        Yeah.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:20

        Like, what y- what I hear you did is, like, you realigned yourself to you. Now, if you hadn't made that call and you had let a couple more of those bad habits-
14. 1:07:31 – 1:21:56

    The Expectation Gap and Pursuing the Divine

    1. MMMatthew McConaughey1:07:31

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:31

       That's resist- that's tension. That-

    3. MMMatthew McConaughey1:07:34

       Yeah, yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:34

       ... unclosed gap. And I think, I think everything that's ever been built that's great or creatively brilliant has come from someone who has a big, a big expectation gap. And of course, the very definition of that, you're never gonna close it. And actually, probably the reason you then are motivated to move to the next thing and pursue divine again is because it wasn't divine last time. Maybe there's still something left on the table, and that's, means you never arrive.

    5. MMMatthew McConaughey1:07:58

       Right.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:00

       You talk about arrival-

    7. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:01

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:01

       ... a lot in the poems and prayers as well. I, I also was reflecting on your mother's words, where she, at a very young age to you, positioned life as a dichotomy of being humble, but like know that you're the shit.

    9. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:15

       Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:16

        And all those things you went through. And it's the same thing. It's like strive for protec- protection, perfection, but also know that nothing will ever get there. And can you, can you be okay with that dissonance?

    11. MMMatthew McConaughey1:08:26

        Right. That, and there's a moment, and it's, I think it's where the, one of the arts of living is, if you, if you are gonna prescribe to go shoot for per- perfection, there's that moment when reality comes in, when you had to declare. And the cards speak for themselves. And it's under, but you, because you oversaw it, it's a theory I got called oversee, 'cause you oversee, expect the best, this, this divinity out of people and, and art and of yourself, and then it always comes in under, how quickly can you go, "Ah, nice reality"?

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:03

        I've watched so many entrepreneurs treat sales like a performance problem, when it's often down to visibility. Because when you can't see what's happening in your pipeline, what stage each conversation is at, what's stalled, what's moving, you can't improve anything, and you can't close the deal. Our sponsor, Pipedrive, is the number one CRM tool for small to medium businesses, not just a contact list, but an actual system that shows your entire sales process end-to-end, everything that's live, what's lagging, and the steps you need to take next. All of your teams can move smarter and faster. Teams using Pipedrive are on average closing three times more deals than those that aren't. It's the first CRM made by salespeople for salespeople, that over 100,000 companies around the world rely on, including my team, who absolutely love it. Give Pipedrive a try today by visiting pipedrive.com/CEO. And you can get up and running in a couple of minutes with no payment needed. And if you use this link, you'll get a 30-day free trial. Can I ask you a question about that then? If you had aimed for something to be perfect, and then it delivered itself as perfect, exactly how you had imagined, if, if-

    13. MMMatthew McConaughey1:10:14

        Yeah.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:14

        ... at all possible, would that have made you happy? Would you have been-

    15. MMMatthew McConaughey1:10:19

        I don't know (laughs) . You're right. Um...

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:24

        Would it have made you scared?

    17. MMMatthew McConaughey1:10:25

        Both probably. Because, look, I've had moments, let me, let me, let me tell you one. Uh, in, in, in Africa, I'm in Mali, Africa. Doggone country. Me and my guide E- who's a buddy now, Issa, we're hiking from village to village in the Bandiagara. Each village is 10 to 15 miles away. I went over there needing my anonymity under the name of David, and I said I was a writer and a boxer. Well, they called me Dauda. Anyway, I, uh, um, they didn't give a damn about the writing part, but they were very interested in the wrestling part. So each village I would go to started to catch up to me, they're like, "Strong white man named Dauda you want to..." And they love to wrestle over there. They love to wrestle. It's kind of a form of entertainment. The boys just walk up and start wrestling. Well, I get to this one, uh, village one night, Binji-Matu, and, uh, I'm laying there. It's a 14-mile hike to get there. I'm laying on the ground stretching. Villagers all kind of come up around, they're talking and chattering, and then all of a sudden, I hear this chatter, and it's sort of at me. I can just hear it. And I look up and it's these two boys that are about 18, and they're boom, boom, boom, popping at me. And I can be like, and I know enough in the tone, I don't know what they're saying 'cause they're speaking in Bambara. I'm like, "Are they talking to, to me?" And Issa goes, "Yes." He goes, "They, uh, um, they are the wrestlers of the village. They say th- they are the best wrestlers of the village, and they are challenging you to a wrestling match." I was like, "Oh, they are?" I was like...

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:54

        (laughs)

    19. MMMatthew McConaughey1:11:56

        ... "Well, they sure are talking a lot." I go, "I don't know if they mean it.Do y'all have this thing over here? We have a thing in America where if someone talks too much, they really don't mean it." He goes, "Yes, we have this, we have this." And just as that happens, you hear the crowd, "Wah!" Scream. And I look up, and the two boys, bam, run off. Why? Because the real champion wrestler of the village, Michelle, five foot nine, tree trunk legs, about 220, burlap bag wrapped with a rope around his waist, he showed up. He doesn't say a word. He just stands over me, points to me, points to himself, and points over here. I look over where he's pointing, and there's a big dirt pit. (laughs) My heart starts racing. There's the challenge. As my heart's beating, going, "Oh no," I start to get up, because as this ear's saying, "Oh no," I'm hearing in this o- ear, "If you don't, you will regret this for the rest of your life. You've got to go do it. This will at least be a great story to tell." (laughs) So I get up. Village goes crazy. About 80 people have gathered now. The chief comes out. I'm standing in the middle of the pit going, "I'm not sure how this is supposed to go. What are the rules?" Chief puts his hands on our heads. Michelle grabs me by the waist, mimics to me, I grab him by the waist, then he burrows his forehead down into my clavicle here, and I burrow mine into his. So now we're like two bulls like this. And the chief puts his hands on our head and then raises them and goes, "Stop!" And the crowd goes wild.... ding, ding is what dot meant. So we start going around, man, and I'm thinking, okay, all right, if I get some leverage on this guy. His legs are like tree trunks. I'm like, oh, I ain't getting him down low. So we're scrabbling, grab and boom, and I get him over, bam, flip him on his back. He flips me back over. I back flip him off my back and somersault, and he comes in, gets me in a fricking leg lock that I can barely breathe from, almost got to tap out from. I shimmy out of that thing. All of a sudden, chief comes in and separates us. (breathes heavily) I'm hyperventilating, man. Crowd's going crazy. He's got us split, Michel on this side, me on this side. Uh, these talismans that were in my beard, they got, two of them got torn out during the wrestling match. I got blood running down here. My knees are bleeding. My ankles are bleeding. I'm hyperventilating and covered in sweat. I look over at Michel, who's just staring at me going... Barely a glisten on him. And that's when the chief goes, "Dowda." And I go, "Oh shit, here we go." (laughs) Boom, boom, boom. Grabs my waist, bop, bop, barrels his head. I barrel my head. We're off. Goes around again. Pretty damn good match. Strong, I flipped him, he pinned me. I, we got up, got moving. All of a sudden, chief comes in and separates us. Raises both our hands. The crowd goes crazy. Wah! Soon as he lowers our hands, Michel runs off. Everyone sees him go and they come in and grab me and put them on their shoulders. "Dowda, Dowda, Dowda." I go over. Now I'm a big man in the village, which means they give me the best chair that has the least broken sort of, you know, uh, uh, um, straw in the seat, which means the village boy finds me the biggest chicken and plucks it and they cook it for dinner for me, which means they take me to the cleanest spot in the river. And I come back that night, we eat. I get on the roof of the hut. What a magical day. I lay back. I see the Southern Cross for the first time in the sky. Like it was in neon lights on a black backdrop. It was... You couldn't not see it. It was so bright and staring me right in the face. I laid there 30 minutes, saw 29 shooting stars. I'm going, "I might have a direct line. I might be the chosen one." Wow. Just as I'm about to shut my eyes, I got a little (clears throat) in my throat. So I sit up (spits) go to spit out over the, off into the, off the top of the roof. (spits) Loogie plastered to my face. I forgot I had put my mosquito net on. (laughs) And I was like, "Oh, perfect." Just when I was thinking I might have the direct line, I just spit a loogie in my own face. And there became the humor. Now to finish off that story, the next morning when I left the village, you remember Michel who ran away? Mm-hmm. I got to the edge of the village, about to make the 14-mile walk to the next village. And there behind the first tree, past, off the property, popped out Michel. Not a word. Looked at me, bowed, grabbed my hand. He walked me the 14 miles to the next village. Got to the village border, the next tribe, out and walked home. I went back unannounced six years later. Did the same trip. Ran into the same people, the kids had grown six years older, everybody. We get to Benjamatu, there's Michel. He's had five kids and he broke his hip. So he's got a limp, right? So we all agree, not another wrestling match. We have a great dinner that night. We talk, we tell stories. They're speaking Bambata, I'm speaking English, but we're just understanding each other sort of charades now. Get up next morning, go to leave. Behind that same tree, out pops Michel. Bows, reaches out his hand, holds my hand, and 14 miles to the next village. Stop, bows, turn around, walk home (kissing sound) (exhales heavily) . I ask Issa back then the first time in '99 after that night when I had wrestled Michel and he walked me the first time, I got there. I was like, "What? Tell me about like what happened last night? I do all right?" He goes, "Oh no, no, no, Dowda. You do very well." He said, "When you accept the challenge, that is when you were big man in this tribe. It was not about the win or the lose. You accept the challenge and then you wrestle Michel, who's not only champion of this village, but of this village and three village back. And you handled Michel." Handled was the word. It wasn't win or lose, it was handled. He goes, "You come back, we make money." (laughs) Yeah, that's what he told me then and I went back six years later and had that experience. And that experience with Michel, the respect we had for each other. He walked me, broken hip and all, the 14 miles to the next village. You accept the challenge. "You accept the challenge. That is when you are big man in this village." Because I was like, "He put me on the shoulders, man, what was it?" He goes, "Oh, you are a big man when you accept the challenge." He said, he said, "Whole village think Michel going to have strong white man named Dowda on back in 10 seconds, over. But you handled Michel. Not win or lose, handled. But you were big man when you accepted challenge." Beautiful.... and then he's there six years later and walks me the same way. I mean, I think your question was on, you know, when we, when we know or how confident when we're feeling like we're on the right path, which that was a time when I thought (laughs) I was so much. I was, "I think I might be there." You know, loogey in my face (laughs) for... And that to me was God going, "You're doing good, but not that good, bud." (laughs)

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:01

        Y- there are so many young men that are struggling. When I look to the s- the stats around suicidal ideation and suicidality, the, the biggest killer of, of men under, I think, the age of 45 is themselves. And it's funny, you said earlier on about, um, to, to be a young man, you have to feel like someone depends on you. And it reminded me of someone on this show that told me when they analyzed suicide letters that the prevailing sentiment across all of these suicide letters, I think it was an Australian study, was feeling like people didn't need you or-

    21. MMMatthew McConaughey1:20:32

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:32

        ... even worse, they were better off without you, in, in suicide letters from men.

    23. MMMatthew McConaughey1:20:37

        That's very Japanese almost.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:39

        And it goes, it was, when, so when you said earlier about this, you know, we need someone to depend upon us, it made me think about that.

    25. MMMatthew McConaughey1:20:45

        Yeah.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:45

        And then you talked about challenge. We need a resistance and challenge to, to aim for. And life is removing that, that challenge. It's, it's removing the, uh-

    27. MMMatthew McConaughey1:20:55

        Yeah, what are the new challenges?

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:57

        ... thing that... Being on the internet, TikTok, ƒ, social m- like, social, social media.

    29. MMMatthew McConaughey1:21:02

        So if those challenges though, for an a- and then I'm just paraphrase this. If those challenges are, may not be the ones that... And we, hopefully we find ways that they can actually pay us back in a qualitative way. Don't we need a challenge that's i- that's immortal? Like belief in God or belief in our better self and how we are as a human and our own character and our own dignity and our relationships, in tomorrow, in our past, in our kids, that are not measured and paid for with the local mortal currency, but our pursuit that keep us having qualitative and valuable experiences that mean something to us and give our life meaning, while we're doing whatever else we're doing in life that may not be giving us the meaning or making us feel...

15. 1:21:56 – 1:26:22

    The Power of Faith

    1. MMMatthew McConaughey1:21:56

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:56

       I want to ask you something 'cause as I started to read Poems and Prayers, you sort of confront a lot of my previous rebuttals to faith, which I imagine a lot of young people have, which is around, like, the science of it.

    3. MMMatthew McConaughey1:22:06

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:06

       Like, what about the science? What about proof and evidence?

    5. MMMatthew McConaughey1:22:09

       Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:09

       You confront this head on. And how do you think about that? 'Cause you're, you're someone that understands the science-

    7. MMMatthew McConaughey1:22:14

       Mm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:14

       ... and the studies and all those kinds of things. But-

    9. MMMatthew McConaughey1:22:16

       I think s- one, I think science is the practical pursuit of God. And like we're talking about perfection, it ain't ever gonna get there. But bravo for it. I believe God loves the scientists. I believe he does. Going, "Thank you." Again, like hands on the wheel. "Thank you for being agnostic and going, 'You can only believe your science.' Thank you. You're churning your way towards me. I'm not gonna get here, but thank you for that pursuit, that independence," to bring up the word again. It's, I don't know, that's the point. I cannot conclude. Those are nouns. Belief is a verb. Faith is a verb in God or any of those other things that we were talking about, our better selves, each other. Those are... A scientist doesn't necessarily doubt. A scientist just says, "I can't believe in something that until it's proven. And if it's unproven, my craft says I cannot believe." I believe that's what a s- a, a scientist looks at it. So I cannot believe in or maybe it's I must doubt that which cannot be proven. I understand that. That does not, again, contradict a scientist or if that's your vocation, if that is your philosophy and your life creed of how you behave and believe, that does not contradict belief in God even though you can't conclude that God exists. I know plenty of scientists that are also believers. I don't know. You know, it's if, it, it's, it's... I got a poem here and this is, this is not a lowest common denominator, but also just a, another practical way of thinking about it if you're like, "Man, I don't, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not for it." Let's just go practical for a second. Heaven or not, all right? Tomorrow is not today's measurement when the misery is bad enough. To the suffering, consideration is a privilege. And that's part of what faith and religion are for. To help those in misery hang on to a hope that will most likely not be served them in this life. To sell them belief and faith that they will be served in the next. And what if there's nothing there, man? What if there's nothing to hope for? No next. I don't know. Either way, in misery here or without a heaven there, not having any hope or faith in anything is a certain way to remain where you are forever. But if you can find something that can keep you going, something, no matter how small, to look forward to and continually have faith in and chase, well, then your life here will be better than it is now, heaven or not.It's not an argument for faith. It, it is saying though, what I think is true, what I believe is true is that to pursue that divinity, even if you don't believe in the author... It's not anonymous. But if you say, "No, when you say that's, that's God, I don't believe in that author." Fine. Okay. Find principles and ways of living and approaching life, yourself, others, your neighbor and self. Oh, there's s- call them ethics, whatever, morals, whatever you want to call them, paradigms, and sort of law markers out there, that's gonna help- helps in this life, now.

Episode duration: 2:06:14