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The Diary of a CEOThe Diary of a CEO

Mel C: The Harsh Reality Of Being In The World’s Biggest Girl Band | E179

Mel C is a singer and ‘Sporty Spice’ from the Spice Girls, through her solo career and her time with the Spice Girls she’s sold over 100 million records, making her one of the best selling musical artists of all time. 0:00 Intro 03:22 Early years 14:35 Dancing 17:31 Not being taken care of a a child 20:41 Discovering singing & joining the spice girls 27:44 Receiving horrible comments 32:15 The come up of the spice girls 46:44 The pressure being in a girlband 53:28 Turning into a robot 01:02:25 Depression 01:05:57 Life after the spice girls 01:07:58 Coming back together as the spice girls 01:21:08 Wheres your line in sharing stuff 01:27:33 The impact of your parents relationship on you 01:28:31 The last guests question Mel: https://mobile.twitter.com/melaniecmusic https://www.instagram.com/melaniecmusic/ Mels book: https://amzn.to/3R1ikGl Listen on: Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-diary-of-a-ceo-by-steven-bartlett/id1291423644 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT7XGuZSzAMjoNWlX FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveBartlettSC Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-bartlett-56986834/ Sponsors: Huel - https://g2ul0.app.link/wjmvak5nAsb Craftd - https://g2ul0.app.link/gZ8in6Dsvsb

Steven BartletthostMelanie C (Mel C / Sporty Spice)guest
Sep 20, 20221h 34mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:22

    Intro

    1. SB

      Before we start, I've got to be honest with you about something. Um, when we recorded this episode with Mel C, um, it was honestly one of the most moving, heartbreaking, inspiring, revealing conversations I've ever had on this podcast. And I've been looking forward to sharing this conversation with you for some time now. Um, and then we had an incident where one of our hard drives was stolen and we lost the audio for Mel's mic. Which is really, really heartbreaking, because of all the episodes to lose the audio for, for it to be this one is... has been very hard to deal with. And I think, uh, I wanna start by apologizing to Mel because she came here, she shared her story in such a profound, vulnerable way. And I've carried this sense of guilt because, um... because when people come here, not only are they giving us their time, but they're giving us their story. And for some people, as is the case in this conversation, it's the first time that that story has been shared in this way. So I've been really struggling with that. But because it was such a profound story, and to, to make sure we honor all of that which Mel gave us by coming here, um, we spent a lot of time fixing the, the audio we do have, which actually comes from one of the cameras that's rolling, not from the microphone in front of her. We've worked with a specialist to try and repair the audio as much as we possibly can. And this is one of the episodes where I'm asking you for a favor, which is to stay with us. I know it's not always easy to listen to audio when it's not as crisp as this audio sounds right now. But there's a story underneath the, um, lack of clarity in the audio, the lack of crispness, crispness in the audio that needs to be heard. It's one of the m- the most amazing stories we've ever shared. Um, and so I hope you enjoy this episode. And we've put many, many meas- many, many, many, many, many, many measures in place to make sure that, um, we never lose any audio or any footage ever again. In this case, it was out of our control. But, um, this episode is worth it, so we're putting it out anyway. You're gonna enjoy it.

    2. MS

      There's an element of guilt attached to my success. It was joyless. You know, because I had a secret and it was killing me. (dramatic music) Melanie C! (crowd cheering) The early days of the Spice Girls were the best, and I feel blessed. But with it has been some really tough times. It was fucking dramatic how it went down. The tabloid media were brutal. We all got called terrible, horrible things.

    3. SB

      Did you notice a change in yourself at all after that?

    4. MS

      Definitely. That was the catalyst.

    5. SB

      Why?

    6. MS

      I became very, very ill. I couldn't control my eating. I was struggling to get out of bed. It was killing me. I think, did becoming famous ruin my life? Did it ruin me? Sometimes I question that. Um, yeah, that's my, my new limit. (cries)

    7. SB

      Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (music)

  2. 3:22 – 14:35

    Early years

    1. SB

      Melanie, when I, when I sit here with people, um, I, I always try and figure out the best starting point. I always know I'm gonna start at the very beginning. But with you, when I was reading through your story, it was quite clear to me that the things that shaped you started at a very, very young age. I'm talking when you were two, three, and four years old. So can you take me right back to the very start? I'm guessing that's like sort of 1976-ish.

    2. MS

      It is. And you're right. You know, things that happened to me when I was a toddler really defined a lot of who I became. I, uh, grew up just outside Liverpool and I was born in Whiston Hospital. My parents and I lived in a place called Rane Hill. And they divorced when I was, I think I was about three years old. And my life kind of quite quickly changed, you know, as lots of young people would be affected like that. And yeah, that was where the story began, I think, me developing this need to succeed.

    3. SB

      When you say your life changed, give me color to, to what that means for you.

    4. MS

      So I was living quite comfortably with mum and dad, you know, the kind of happy archetypal family life. And, um, my mum, um, we left. Me and my mum left, and we went to live with my grandparents. And then we, we went to live, um, in quite a different area. We were still only about 30 minutes away, but it, it was quite different. We went into, um, council accommodation. And my, um... Quite quickly, my mum was in a new relationship, so there was this new guy around. And it was just kind of... It just, you know... Looking back, it was just very different to the world I'd entered into when I first turned upon this planet.

    5. SB

      What was your, um, your f- family's sort of economic situation throughout this journey? Was it... Were you a, a working class family or...

    6. MS

      Absolutely, yeah. I mean, my family still are, you know, very working class, you know, through the generations. And my mum and dad were doing... You know, they were doing good. We had a lovely semi-detached house in a, in a nice suburb of, of, you know, Liverpool. And obviously with my mum leaving dad, as today, you know, lots of couples find that it is very difficult to, to start again. Um, so we were, yeah, going into a situation where it was hard for mum to make ends meet. So it was, yeah, it was, it was quite a, a tough area to be, um, to be growing up in.

    7. SB

      Where was your dad?

    8. MS

      So dad was still in the house.

    9. SB

      In the house you'd been raised in for those-

    10. MS

      Yes, yeah.

    11. SB

      ... first few years?

    12. MS

      And then after, I think, a couple of years, he went traveling.And, um, yeah. And then he went to work abroad actually. So I've always seen a lot of my dad. But there were periods of times when he was away. So, um, yeah, so it was a bit of a shakeup. Quite early. They're formative years, aren't they?

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MS

      When you're that little, you don't think about it 'cause as a child, your life is your life. But I think when you start to think about who you are and how you became that person, you start to... You just kind of pinpoint maybe little moments that put you on that track.

    15. SB

      So when you look back to that, that experience of your parents separating at a very young age, and then your life shifting, and, um, in hindsight, what impact did that have on you? Like, when you look back and connect those dots and go, "Oh, that, that's the reason for that."

    16. MS

      I think it kind of confused me, I think, as a young person, to have my location change, you know, to be taken from the family home. And obviously, I was tiny, so I didn't understand. You know, I didn't understand adult relationships. I didn't understand why it was happening. So this little series of events, and then, you know, I have a new... I've got a stepdad, and then I had a new sibling, and then I had stepbrothers. And so there was just, there was just quite a lot of big things happening in my little world. And it made me just kind of confused to, like, where I belonged, who I was, how I fitted in to that new dynamic. And, you know, as I got older and my dad remarried and I have this incredible family... It's very complicated and it's huge, and I have half-siblings and step-siblings and step-parents and, and it's lovely. But I think for me, being the only child of my mum and dad sometimes made me feel a little bit a spare part. And I think that's what made me feel like I had to make myself a place in the world, my own place in the world. And I think also it was about kind of earning the love of these people. I kind of felt like I had to prove that I was worthy of exis- existence. It sounds melodramatic, but I think as a, as a young person, you... I mean, especially going through my teenage years, you, you question everything, don't you? You know, "Why are we here?" And a lot of that for me was like, "Do I deserve to be here?" And so I had to make myself worthy of being here.

    17. SB

      And you think that started because of th- your parents' separation, and then this new context of these other siblings that were... Felt maybe belonged more than...

    18. MS

      Yeah. I, I think, I think especially when, you know, both my parents remarried. And they've both really happily remarried and have gone on to have more children. And I love my parents, and I love my stepparents, and all of my siblings. But for me, I, I sometimes feel quite alone, and I think that is what propelled me and some of the issues I went on to have in later life. Uh, you know, for good and for bad. You know, I think there's been real benefits to those feelings, um, which has made me very determined, um, very conscientious. But also, it's made me very hard on myself. I'm a little bit of a perfectionist.

    19. SB

      One of the things that I was quite surprised to read was this almost contradiction between you... You really looked up to your dad. You, you... I think you wrote in your book that you almost worshiped him.

    20. MS

      Yeah.

    21. SB

      But then when he left-

    22. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. SB

      ... it was almost like there wasn't, there wasn't a reaction from you.

    24. MS

      Yeah. I know. It, uh, it's so strange to me. It's hard when you're that young, isn't it? 'Cause th- your own memories are such little tiny snippets. And you remember, and we all remember things differently. But for my dad, you know, I did. I, I put him on a pedestal, and I still do. You know, he's my hero, and he always will be. But yeah. He, he ran away, and he ran away for his own reasons. And as an adult, I completely understand that, you know? And he needed to do that. But yeah. I kind of shut down, I think. And I think I kind of... I have learnt in my life, which has been really useful in my career, that I can have these incredibly intense emotional feelings, but they have to be buried. Not healthy, but helpful sometimes. (laughs)

    25. SB

      In the short term.

    26. MS

      Yeah. Yeah. But I think if your, if your knowledge... You know, you have the knowledge that you do that, I think that can help in just maybe not doing it or, or trying to, to not do it too much.

    27. SB

      Is that the first time you, you kind of recalled that, those early years where you think you might have just buried a set of emotions and not addressed them, that, that blocking out of it just to keep on keeping on?

    28. MS

      Yeah. I, I think, I, I think some of it is my personality. But I think some of it was circumstance, that I kind of... I don't like to rock the boat. I don't want to cause people problems. I want to always make sure everybody's okay. Um, and I think that's a lot to do with worthiness, you know, feeling unworthy potentially.

    29. SB

      Um, j- just, just so I'm completely clear in my own mind, because I, I don't want to make any assumptions, that feeling of, like, m- not feeling worthiness came from that dysfunctional family dynamic. That's the first sort of hint you have of it.

    30. MS

      I, I think so. I think looking back, you know, I grew up in the '70s and '80s. And for me, in the environment I was in at that time, it was really unusual that parents separated.

  3. 14:35 – 17:31

    Dancing

    1. MS

    2. SB

      Dancing-

    3. MS

      (clears throat) Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... seemed to be your first love as I was reading through your story.

    5. MS

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      Where did that show up? Where did dancing come from?

    7. MS

      You know, I think like so many young kids, you have this moment where you maybe go to ballet or disco or whatever the, the local, you know, it was in the local club or whatever. And I went on to ballet and tap when I was so little I can't even remember, but it must have struck a chord with me because when we moved to Runcorn, it was... there was no way mum could afford for me to do dance classes. So, I had this period of time without it. We moved to Widnes when I was, I think I was eight years old, and that's when I picked up dancing again and I think I'd really like bugged my mum for years, "I want to go back to dancing, I want to go back, I want to go back." And I did sports at school, you know, I've always... I'm just very active, um, I think I was probably one of those kids who never sat still, you know? I was always outside, I was always upside down or kicking a ball or something.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. MS

      And dancing for me, it was just a way of expressing myself and a freedom and it was almost like a safe place as well.

    10. SB

      Safe place.

    11. MS

      Like many performers, and I'm sure you've spoken to lots of people who are like this, that I'm quite shy in certain aspects of my life, maybe like in a social aspect. Um, you know, being at school, I kept my head down, I wasn't very academic. I did okay. But when I was dancing, when I was doing something creative and being able to express myself, I felt very confident and free and alive. So yeah, dancing school was where I really felt in my element.

    12. SB

      So, so you became a very obsessive dancer, practicer. Very meticulous.

    13. MS

      Yeah, I think there's something about classical ballet and the training of that which... there's a lot of discipline and it just really works for me and, and even now, you know, I, I have to have an awareness of this, that it's... to have those parameters and to have that discipline makes me feel safe. I don't really know where that comes from, but I am... I'm very hard on myself and I kind of... I think I'm a little bit of a workaholic because I feel like when I'm in a work space and I'm being very disciplined that I'm safe.

    14. SB

      One might guess that, um, if parameters and discipline and th- that structure makes you feel safe, then there might have been a time where a lack of parameters made you feel unsafe, or a lack of a foundation made you feel unsafe.

    15. MS

      Yeah. Absolutely. I- I'm sure. I'm sure. I think there was a lot of... you know, my mum's a performer-

    16. SB

      Oh.

    17. MS

      ... and, you know, it's, it's so... it's so weird now because obviously I find myself in, in a similar position, but she'd be away- not an awful lot, but there'd be times when I'd be staying with other people or, you know, there have been babysitters and, uh, you know, maybe there was a little bit of instability felt there and that would definitely make sense.

    18. SB

      A bit of instability.

  4. 17:31 – 20:41

    Not being taken care of a a child

    1. SB

      Is this... are you talking to... talking about your nanny?

    2. MS

      (laughs) Yeah, yeah. There was a little period of time where, yeah, my mum had employed someone to look after me who, um, you know, she felt was, was a great person for the role. But unfortunately, you know, the girl, she was maybe a little bit too young to take on that responsibility and had kind of moved me out of our home and I'd moved in with, with her mum and, uh... yeah, it was all a little bit shady. But yeah, as soon as mum found out, she put an end to it. But I think I was very quiet about it because I was so little, I think I was only about five. So, um, I chose not to tell her. Probably didn't want to rock the boat.

    3. SB

      What weren't you telling her?

    4. MS

      ... um, that I wasn't at home, and that I wasn't being taken care of by the girl she'd employed to take care of me.

    5. SB

      That feels like a, a l- a light way of-

    6. MS

      (laughs)

    7. SB

      ... saying something that is a little less light in reality (laughs) .

    8. MS

      Well, you know, again, I was so young. It was... I don't think it's until I've got older that I thought, "That's, that's probably something that would affect you in a big way." But at the time, it was just my life.

    9. SB

      You recite this moment of g- of just waiting for this per- this person that was meant to be taking care of you, um, just not showing up on many occasions, and you having to wait outside and wee in your pants at one point because you were waiting outside so long.

    10. MS

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember getting back from school and we had these, you know, horrible, damp concrete steps up to the flat door, and no one was home, and yeah, just busting for the toilet. And yeah, I wet myself, and luckily the, the neighbor came home and she took me in and kind of cleaned me up and... Yeah. So that's... I mean, again, I was so young. There's, there's just these little flashes of memories of those things.

    11. SB

      I think, I think when you're y- when you're young, you maybe don't... A- a- it's not that those... I think about my own life, like, it's not that those things don't, aren't impacting you, it's you don't, you're not really aware of the impact they're having or the stories that they're, they're making you write about yourself and about your situation. Um, and then obviously, so oftentimes it seems that we, including myself, then see the consequences of it, and in hindsight have to peep, p- sort of piece together where that came from.

    12. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SB

      But that's f- I mean, when I, when I read that, um, in your book, I was... I mean, that's, that's almost like criminal neg- negligence to treat a child in such a way. And I think about the, your, your, the departure of your father, your mum then departing to go and pursue her career, and then you, you ultimately ending up on these steps, you know, urinating your underwear because of this negligent, uh, nanny. And that's, uh, you know, that, that's where I think, "Oh, that is..." You know, that must have been formative in, in-

    14. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. SB

      ... to some, to some degree.

    16. MS

      Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm a big believer in therapy, and I've been having it for many years. Um, probably I only started to do that because of my time with the Spice Girls and how much of a head fuck that was. But it's really interesting because you do look at your habits and the things that you do and why you do them, and so much of it comes back to your childhood.

  5. 20:41 – 27:44

    Discovering singing & joining the spice girls

    1. MS

    2. SB

      Dancing was your first love. Um, you, you become very disciplined at that, and eventually off you go to, um, study in London.

    3. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      And that's where you find singing.

    5. MS

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      Which you hadn't... Had you been doing it before?

    7. MS

      You know, because my mum was a singer and she had deals in the '70s, she had a couple of record deals with different bands, but you know, it hadn't worked out the way she would've liked it to. Um, you know, she did great, but it didn't get to those heights that all of us performers would like to get to. So I just knew growing up, it's really, really hard. Working in the music industry is really difficult. So, you know, my young brain goes, "Okay, I want to be a pop star, but it's really hard." So I love dancing and I love singing, so theater, 'cause I loved musical theater as well. I went to performing arts college and I was pursuing that, and I, I'd sung a little bit, but I just, I never really had confidence in my voice. But there was this, like, weird thing of... It just gave me so much joy, actually more joy than dancing. I was in college, I was in my second year, and we had these competitions that would happen every year. And I was singing a song, and it was the first time I just had a moment with an audience where they, I just really felt this energy, this transaction between myself and them, and it was when I was singing, and it, that was it for me, that was the moment, it was like, "It is singing. That is it. That is what I have to do."

    8. SB

      So eventually you, um, you and 400 other young women res- respond to a advert in a magazine.

    9. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SB

      What was that advert?

    11. MS

      Okay, so, when I... So, so The Stage newspaper was when you leave performing arts college, you're an actor, a, a dancer, singer, whatever, you go for your auditions, The Stage is where you find your auditions. Found myself at an audition I didn't want to be at, handed a flyer for a girl band, and I'm like, "That's it. That's what I'm gonna do."

    12. SB

      Y- y- you get handed a flyer. A lot of people are being handed that flyer.

    13. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SB

      Did you know then that you would... You said, "That's it. That's what I want to do." Did you know then that you wanted to be in a girl band, or did you mean, "That's it, I'm going to apply, and I think that's more befitting of what I, where I want to go"?

    15. MS

      It's hard to know exactly because of what's happened since then.

    16. SB

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    17. MS

      You know what I mean?

    18. SB

      Yeah, yeah, of course.

    19. MS

      But my, but my telling of the story is... I mean, I just had a really strong feeling at that time that I was gonna, whatever this thing was-

    20. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. MS

      ... I was gonna be a part of it, and it was gonna be something incredible.

    22. SB

      What did that flyer say?

    23. MS

      I think it said something like, "Are you 18 to 24?" I think it, like, the wording of it, "Streetwise? Can dance, sing, fun-loving?" Blah, blah. I don't know.

    24. SB

      Yeah (laughs) .

    25. MS

      Um, but it was, yeah, it was just basically an audition, an open audition-

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. MS

      ... "Anyone come along, we're putting a girl band together."

    28. SB

      Okay.

    29. MS

      It was a music management, and yeah, I went along to that audition.

    30. SB

      And how did that go?

  6. 27:44 – 32:15

    Receiving horrible comments

    1. SB

      you've re- released any music, you stumbled around trying to find management for a while, right?

    2. MS

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      And then you recount stories in your book about some, like, dickheads that's made some just, like, awful comments to you. Can you tell me about that, that comment? Was his name Ch- Chick?

    4. MS

      Oh, Chick. Yeah. So he was a financial backer. So when we... We were first put together by a management team, and we were with them maybe for about a year. And Chick was, um, yeah, the financial backer of these original managers, and he'd commented on the size of my thighs, um, which was something that really shook me because I... you know, I went to a performing arts college, which was predominantly a dancing college. And, you know, body image was an issue there. There was... there were girls with eating disorders. I'd, I'd been, you know, I'd been witness to that in my life. But yeah, it never affected me personally. Um, you know, and I'm a teenager, putting on a little bit of weight, moving away from home, not really eating as well, going down the pub. And, you know, so my weight fluctuated a little bit, but it was never something that really bothered me. It was just, "Yeah, I'll cut back a little bit, lose a few pounds." But somebody actually commenting on the way I looked when I was going into a career where so much of it is about how you look really affected me.

    5. SB

      Did he make that comment in front of people?

    6. MS

      He made that comment in front of the other girls.

    7. SB

      There's something about... there's something about, um, when you're trying to fit in, when someone points out something which makes you different or that might make you feel like you don't fit in. And from s- just listening to your early years where fitting in and feeling worthy was so important to you, for someone to then, in a group of people where you, where you belong, those... that, that band, to say, "This is why you don't fit," essentially, with that comment-

    8. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SB

      ... I can't think of anything more, more hurtful for one's self-esteem.

    10. MS

      Especially as a young person 'cause, you know, think about it. I was probably 19 at that point, which at the time you feel like you're all grown up. You left college, going out into the big wide world. You're a child. You know, you're still so young and so vulnerable.

    11. SB

      Well, uh, Victoria said to you that he had said comments to her about her weight as well or her appearance.

    12. MS

      Yeah. I think, you know, it was, it was very much at that time... I mean, I, you know, I went to dance college, so teachers would say, "You need to lose weight." You know, "What's that stomach do-" Uh, I mean, I've spoken to dancers recently about the culture of that 'cause, you know, um, recently there was a lot... there's been a lot talked about in the gymnastics world.

    13. SB

      Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. MS

      And there was definitely a culture within dance which was very cruel and heartless and shaming, body-shaming.... um, which is changing. But, you know, dance teachers, there are some really lovely nurturing ones out there. But some of the best dance teachers are horrible, you know. We... I mean, carrot and the stick, isn't it?

    15. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MS

      It's quite an old-fashioned way, but it worked in some ways, but it's very damaging.

    17. SB

      Did it change your behavior, that, that comment from him? Did, d- did you notice a change in yourself at all after that?

    18. MS

      Definitely. That was the catalyst. That was the catalyst for me to... It was like a wake-up call. It was like, "If I want to do this, if I'm going to be a pop star..." And you have to remember, this was, like, the '90s as well. So it was... You know, body image was a very different thing back then, you know. Thank God there's so much more body, body positivity now, you know. But back then, it was all about being stick thin. And I thought, "Well, if I'm going to do this, I have to fit the mold." And so then that was... It was just... It was a, it was a gradual thing, but it was like the eating and the exercising, and that's when, that's when it begun, yeah, from a comment like that.

    19. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MS

      Which he probably didn't give a se- second thought to, you know?

    21. SB

      Isn't that crazy?

    22. MS

      It's crazy.

    23. SB

      We never really appreciate that one comment can have such a profound impact and change someone's, um, the trajectory of their health or their wellbeing in such a pr- a significant way. Just one comment.

    24. MS

      Yeah.

    25. SB

      Just a few words.

    26. MS

      Yeah. Um, you know, I think it's, it's a bit of a trigger, isn't it? You know, so that happened, and I think obviously I was feeling vulnerable, and it knocks your confidence. But then it's kind of... I think it's like a little chain of events that leads you down that road.

    27. SB

      Right.

    28. MS

      You know? So that maybe was the little start of it. It ignited a-

    29. SB

      The first domino to fall.

    30. MS

      Yeah.

  7. 32:15 – 46:44

    The come up of the spice girls

    1. MS

      Yeah.

    2. SB

      On that journey trying to find new management, you, you stumbled across Simon Cowell as well, and he- (laughs)

    3. MS

      (laughs)

    4. SB

      He must hate when you recount this story because... (laughs)

    5. MS

      Oh, no. It's so funny 'cause he... This is the thing, right? Everybody remembers things differently. Because he remembers, he said yes to us, but we said no to him. So basically, we got to the point where we were going to record companies. We were looking for a record deal, so we'd left the, the original management, and we had some demos, demo tapes. And we were going around meeting managers, meeting record labels, and most people were very positive. We got very positive reactions. But we remember Simon saying he wasn't interested in us. Um, yeah, but he, he recounts it differently. So that's funny, isn't it? Because obviously then, it was the '90s. He was a, a record company exec. He, he wasn't known to the, to the wider public.

    6. SB

      At this point, when you're going around trying to find management, how are you pr- like, providing for yourselves? H- Where's the money coming from to sustain the band? And was there ever a moment where you thought, "Fuck this. I'm gonna-"

    7. MS

      No.

    8. SB

      ... "No."?

    9. MS

      Never. Never, never, never. So when we were with our original management, they, they did give us, like, a little bit of pocket money. They put us up in a house. I think they gave us about 60 pounds a week, which, 'cause we weren't paying for our accommodation, at the time, you know, we could make ends meet. Um, but when we left them, I think I went to stay with a friend back in Sidcup, where I'd been to college, so I was, like, staying in her spare room. And then there was a period of time where Melanie and Geri were homeless. They were doing a little bit of sofa surfing. Yeah. And Emma went home to her mum's place in Finchley, and Victoria was back at her mum's place up, um, in Hertfordshire. So yeah, we were... Uh, and it was so lovely. There's... I remember we'd go to Emma's mum's place, and she'd do loads of toast for us and wrap it in tinfoil, and that would be breakfast. And yeah, we w- we were just... We never thought. It was never an option to give up. We were on this journey, and we were gonna make it happen.

    10. SB

      How long was that period when, when... between you leaving your initial management to ultimately when you found Simon Fuller and, you know, that kind of... It began with Virgin.

    11. MS

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      How long was that? How big was that gap?

    13. MS

      It, it wasn't as long as a year.

    14. SB

      Okay.

    15. MS

      Like, within a year. It was maybe about eight months or so. But we, we had, um, somebody who was, you know, very kindly looking after us. So what we'd done before we left our original management, we talked our original management into putting on a showcase.

    16. SB

      Okay.

    17. MS

      So we did that, and then we met some writers and producers and publishers. And we made some contacts, and we, we kind of knew already we were gonna leave, but we just thought, "Let's get this out with them." And we did that. And so we pursued that, and we were with Mark Fox, who was head of publishing at BMG at the time. And he kind of took us under his wing and would take us out for dinners and got us to meet people, and that kind of got us on our road to success.

    18. SB

      And then you met Simon Fuller.

    19. MS

      We did.

    20. SB

      Talk to me about that and how that changed things.

    21. MS

      Yeah. It was really interesting because we'd been... It's so funny, isn't it? We really did take matters into our own hands, and we talk about auditioning managers, you know. We were this unknown girl band. Everyone was telling us girl bands don't work, but we were out there going, "Right, is this manager good enough for us?" Um, so we just, we just had this attitude that we've got something very special, and we're not gonna undersell it or ourselves. And... Which is wonderful, you know. Even if any of us had any doubts about it, we were like, "Nope. This is the way it is." And I think that real determination, single-mindedness, is a really important part of succeeding. It's like, "No. There's no doubt this will not fail." So we went out there and met these people. And Mark Fox was introducing us to songwriters. We met Matt and Biff, who we wrote Wannabe and 2 Become 1 and Viva Forever. And we also met Absolute, who we wrote Who Do You Think You Are?, Too Much with those guys. And they were managed by a guy called Pete, and he was in Simon's offices. And Simon heard the music and wanted to meet us. So he was the first person who approached us.

    22. SB

      And eventually you signed with Virgin?

    23. MS

      Virgin Records, yeah.

    24. SB

      Virgin Records, yeah.

    25. MS

      Yeah. Didn't we? We, we gave everyone the runaround, and we got the money up and up and up and up, as you could in those days. And we just loved Virgin. It was an incredible team.... and we just had so much fun with them. They really shared our vision. Great A& R, Ashley Newton, you know, obviously Spice was such a great album, as is Spice World. Um, so yeah, it was like a match made in heaven.

    26. SB

      You, you recount that moment that Simon Fuller gave you your first, um, 10K check, I believe.

    27. MS

      (laughs)

    28. SB

      And this is before you've released any music, right? So this is like a... is this a signing bonus?

    29. MS

      Yeah. So we, we got like, um, you get a advance-

    30. SB

      Mm-hmm.

  8. 46:44 – 53:28

    The pressure being in a girlband

    1. MS

    2. SB

      That, um, that pressure, though. People often talk about the pressure of being in a band, but the pressure of being in a girl band at that time-

    3. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      ... especially when even, you know, the media were, were very vicious and there wasn't a s- an awareness around the impact of words on mental wellbeing and how that can impact people, um, strikes me as being an even more difficult time than today of being in... Well, we have social media now, and, which is also an exacerbating factor, but talk to me about the, the pressure of public scrutiny back then on young women.

    5. MS

      You're right. You know, the tabloid media were brutal. I think things have improved. Not that much. I mean, it is quite shocking now when I look back at the articles from the '90s and noughties-

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. MS

      ... just, like, the wording that was used. I think they're just a bit more sneaky with it now, you know? They're still saying the same things, but in a slightly different way. But back then it was just brutal. I mean, I got called... We all got called, like, terrible, horrible things, and as a young person, I think for anyone, and, and you're right, you know, the generation now have social media to deal with it, which I think is equally as damaging, if not more so in many ways, because you can't escape it, can you? You know, your phone is there. I wake up, first thing I do, look at my phone. Um, luckily now I have the skin of a rhino-

    8. SB

      (laughs)

    9. MS

      (laughs) ... so, if anyone's saying anything negative about me, um, you know, I can, I can usually brush it off. But yeah, back then it was... I was trying to figure out who I was, you know, "Who am I?" These people are telling me I'm this thing. You know, they're criticizing me. I'm, I'm not talented enough. I'm not pretty enough. I'm stupid. I'm a loudmouth, I'm this, and it's like...Who am I? Am I who I want to be? Am I who they tell me I am? Should I be who they want me to be? And, uh, it's so confusing. And that was, I think, another, you know, we were talking about these different elements that got me. 'Cause I, I became very, very ill, um, around 2000, and you know, the, the eating and the exercising and, from Chick's words and certain things that had happened, being photographed constantly, but being commented on constantly was a big factor in that journey.

    10. SB

      Your demeanor changed when I talk- when I mentioned that.

    11. MS

      Did it?

    12. SB

      It looked like it... Genuinely, I could, I could see how that, that phase of your life had impacted you, just from the, the change in your...

    13. MS

      (laughs) I'm quite emotional. Um, yeah, it's... I don't think anyone can ever... You know, it's really hard, you know, because I'm always in this place where there's a... I'm always in this place where there's an element of guilt attached to my success, and I think that's exacerbated by people going, "Well, you're famous." You know, "You put yourself in that position." And something I explore in the book is, you know, people who want to be famous probably are the people least well-equipped to deal with it, because, you know, we're, we're looking for acceptance and love and adoration, and to be that vulnerable and to put yourself in that position only to be criticized is, is a bad combination. And I think, you know, with the tabloid media as it was back then, I mean, it's horrific. I mean, I've looked again recently 'cause, you know, there, there's been certain reasons why I- I've been having to read old articles on myself, and I'm shocked. I'm shocked at the things they used to say. I, um, I mean, I don't wanna jump forward too far with the story, but I, I did suffer with a couple of eating disorders, one of them being binge eating disorder. I was very depressed, and I gained some weight 'cause I'd been underweight for a long, long time. And my body was just like... It was just a reaction. It was like, "I am starved of any nourishment. Heal me, feed me." And, you know, obviously the big change in that made me gain weight. And it wasn't an enormous amount of weight. I think I went from a size, probably about a size... I suppose it does sound like a lot if you say like a size 6 to a size 14. But then a size 14, I don't think is even the average size of women in the UK. And they called me Sumo Spice. I mean, how disgusting is that? So whoever this person is, I'm not gonna say it's a guy. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The editor probably was. But they thought it was appropriate to call a young woman who actually had been open, because she kind of felt she had to be, about her issues, and it was okay to call her Sumo Spice. How sick is that? It's really fucked up, isn't it?

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MS

      I mean, worst things happen to people and, you know, worst things happen in the world, but in this... In my world, at that time, when that happened, it was devastating.

    16. SB

      Gosh, it's disgusting, isn't it?

    17. MS

      Yeah. They couldn't do it now. They couldn't do that now. But like I say, they... It's all a little bit reading between the lines now, isn't it?

    18. SB

      You, you were so young then as well. You were, you know... You're in your teen years, but you're still a child at that age, and as you say, learning who you are and what you mean... Was there a moment where you realized that... So that first comment from Chick sends you, changes your behavior. Was there a moment where you look back on and go, that was maybe the s- not the second catalyst moment, but my behavior took a really sharp turn there in terms of like exercise and obsessing over food and fitting in?

    19. MS

      Yeah. I, I think it was, it was more when we were in the public eye, being photographed, doing lots of photo shoots. Um, yeah. And, you know, some of it is linked to a, a need of control, isn't it? 'Cause things at that point felt very much out of our control, even though we, we, you know, we wanted to take this thing, you know, in our own hands and we wanted to make it happen. Um, I think because when things with the Spice Girls became uber successful, which was very quick after the release of Wannabe, we're flying all over the world. You're, you're in a bubble, you know, this crazy bubble, and it's great, you're having an amazing time, but you can't, you can't do things on your own terms anymore. But you can control what you put in your mouth. Or you can be in the gym where people will leave you alone 'cause they'll go, "Don't, don't bother her, she's in the

  9. 53:28 – 1:02:25

    Turning into a robot

    1. MS

      gym."

    2. SB

      You write about how you turned into a robot.

    3. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      What do you mean by robot?

    5. MS

      Okay, so I think I found that the only way I could survive the experience was by switching off my feelings. Um, I had to eat a certain way, I had to exercise a certain amount, and I couldn't not do it. So I had to switch off any of those, like human emotions or any of those... Just even listening to my own body, this... There was a task that had to be done and I had to complete it. "I'm a robot, I must do it." And that was kind of my inner dialogue.

    6. SB

      And you recount this, um, this day of re- reciting some, reciting that while being on a running machine, which I found very, almost quite unnerving and quite strange, looking in the mirror and telling yourself that you're a robot.

    7. MS

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      That actually happened? Y- you were looking in the-

    9. MS

      (laughs) I c- I can, I can completely remember being in the gym, like now I'm on the treadmill, kind of in the middle of a row of treadmills, and...Yeah. That was, that was my way of coping, to like shut down, shut off. Just, like, just this body is just a piece of machinery that will do what it has to do. And there was no- there was no choice. That was the thing, there was no choice. That was the way it had to be. And it wasn't until I had, which I, by a- you know, I- I imagine was a breakdown in 2000 when I just, you know, I hit rock bottom and, and that's when I kind of fell apart, because the robot wasn't working anymore.

    10. SB

      Have you... When you think back at that young girl, have you got... how do you feel about her? As an, as an, as an, you know, much more mature person now-

    11. MS

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... how do you feel about that young girl that was going through that?

    13. MS

      I feel really sad for her. I feel like, you know, it was the most incredible time of my life, and the hardest. And as much as I enjoyed it, it was joyless. You know? Because I had a secret, and I was dealing with what I had to deal with, and living my dream at the same time. It- it was... It's a, it's a hell fuck is what it is. Because I wouldn't, I wouldn't change anything. I'd change that. I'd change that I became the victim of an eating disorder and exercising obsessively. I wish that hadn't happened to me so I could've fully enjoyed the wonderful things that happened to me 100%. You know, life isn't perfect. There's always issues, there's always things we have to overcome. But it was fucking dramatic in how it went down.

    14. SB

      What would you say to her if you could speak to her?

    15. MS

      I'd say sorry. I do. I feel so sorry that I did that to her. Yeah. I think I've been angry as well. I think I've aimed anger at other people, but I think as, as an adult you have to take responsibility for your actions. Um, you know, I don't wanna sound bitter and twisted, but there, you know, there were people or, you know, the tabloid media. I don't wanna bitch and moan about the tabloid media, but, you know, they probably need to be bitched and moaned about because they've been disgraced. Um, but yeah, I just... I, I, I feel sorry. I feel regretful.

    16. SB

      S- well, what would you say sorry to her for?

    17. MS

      For putting her through that. Putting her through that for... And it, and it feels like I kind of... I have a lot of guilt attached to what I was representing, but what was really going on behind closed doors. And you know what? I'm such an honest person, I can't, I can't lie. I'm so bad at lying and I- I feel so dishonest if I'm not baring myself to people. But I was living a lie. And that's probably the hardest part of it.

    18. SB

      That, um, that secret, the secret you're referring to is the eating disorder and the e- obsessive exercising, right?

    19. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. SB

      The secret you were keeping. When you say, um, eating disorder, are you referring to the binge eating disorder that ... or was that, did that come after?

    21. MS

      That was later, yeah.

    22. SB

      Okay.

    23. MS

      So, you know, and the, the weird thing is actually as you, as you put it like that, it's like I was in denial for a long time as well. You know, because there is a little voice that goes, "You can't carry on like this." But then the other voice, the bigger voice, goes, "You haven't got a choice." And the first eating disorder, I, I started to, um, just to eat less, smaller portions, and then I started to eliminate food groups, um, to a point, because I was terrified of fat, and then I was terrified of carbs. And then I wouldn't eat a banana because it's got too much sugar in it. Uh, I mean, I do not even know how I survived. And I think often now I get so exhausted, I think it's probably through years of being malnourished. Um, I lived on fruit and vegetables for about two years. And I was underweight, my periods stopped. You know, I kind of... I've always wanted to be a mum, but I had no choice but to live this life I was living. And I was jeopardizing the chance of being a mum. I mean, how crazy is that? It's just this compulsion.

    24. SB

      And then it all comes to a head in 2000 when, um-

    25. MS

      Yeah. I, I think like a lot of, and I don't wanna say a lot of women, but a lot of people really hate their bodies. You know, we, "Oh, I hate this." We used to get asked in interviews or, you know, "What's, what's your favorite..." What would you call them? Like, your favorite attribute or whatever. You know, "What, what do you, what do you like least about yourself?" You know, "What..." Stupidest fucking questions. Why would you s- why would you ever say... Never be negative in a, in an interview, right? Never pull people towards your vulnerability. Do you know what I mean? "Oh, I hate my, my short stubby legs." You know what I mean? Just really focus on them. Um, but yeah, I, I, I hated myself. I was never good enough. Nothing's good enough. Women do this all the time. We pull ourselves apart, you know. "I'm not funny enough, I'm not clever enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not sexy enough." All these things. And it's like, fuck, this body is amazing and I spent all of those years just hating it because it wasn't what I wanted it to be. But you are not your body. You know, I, I was talking to my family this weekend. I, I lost an older sibling a few years ago, and we were talking about when people pass. And, you know, and sadly he died of cancer. And we know in the last stages, people with cancer, it's, it's awful to see them in that way. But I don't remember him in that way. I remember the essence of him. I remember how funny he was and how naughty he was. And, and it's not... I don't, I don't remember anything physical, you know? And it's just, we just need to get away from this physical being.... what defines us. Fuck off, it's not what defines us. We are so much more than that. And, um, I've completely forgotten what the question was, but I just got caught up in that for a while.

    26. SB

      No, uh, no, it was so, it was so powerful and-

    27. MS

      Yeah.

    28. SB

      ... um, it was linked to it all, all of that sort of suppression and-

    29. MS

      Yeah.

    30. SB

      ... self-abandonment coming to a head in t- 2020- 2000.

  10. 1:02:25 – 1:05:57

    Depression

    1. MS

    2. SB

      You go to that doctor who ultimately diagnoses you with depression. Can you remember that day vividly?

    3. MS

      I do. I really do. I remember sitting opposite him at his desk, and I think I said everything out loud for the first time, about my eating, about crying and not being able to sleep. I mean, I didn't have the words. I didn't know what anxiety was. I didn't know what depression was. So I-

    4. SB

      What did you say to him? Just t- 'cause I, I want to get a color of what the symptoms were that you hadn't yourself-

    5. MS

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      ... pinpointed as...

    7. MS

      Well, I was, I was tired all the time. I couldn't control my eating. I mean, I was... I, I terrified myself because sometimes I'd catch myself in mid-binge. It was so c- it was such a compulsive thing. I'd, like... Yeah. I'd just be in the middle of just eating and I'd be like, "What you're fucking doing?" You know? And anyone... And then suddenly, I know lots of people have these issues. It's like a cycle, 'cause you do it and then you hate yourself, so you do it again, and then... You, you just... It just keeps, uh, you know, getting worse and worse until the point where I had to go to the doctor. But I felt like I was losing my mind, and I felt like I was actually going mad. And, yeah, and I didn't have the right words, and I know they are not the right words that we use today-

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. MS

      ... but those were the words I had. Um, yeah. And he said, "Well, first of all, we have to... you know, we have to deal with your depression." And I was like, and it was like this weight was just lifted from my shoulders because I was like, "Oh, my God, it's got a name. It's something that can be treated. It's something you can recover from." And that was the beginning of a very, very long journey.

    10. SB

      A very, very long journey.

    11. MS

      A very long journey.

    12. SB

      Hmm.

    13. MS

      Yeah. I think I'm still on that journey, to be honest. I don't think... I think depression is always there. It's always waiting in the wings. It's looming. Um, well, it is for me, anyway. Um, but I'm, I'm quite good at just keeping it at bay. You learn the tricks and the tools to keep it at bay.

    14. SB

      You, you describe, um, I, I believe the, um, the fear of that looming, um, depression or, you know, uh, I guess, the fear of going back to former ways or f- finding yourself in that situation as, as being quite a scary thing. Is it a scary thing, something you're, you're s- you're scared of? I don't want to mischaracterize your words there, but...

    15. MS

      Um...

    16. SB

      Is it something that sits at the back of your mind in terms of you know that y- you fear there might be... that it's like a catalyst? There could be one thing that could...

    17. MS

      Yeah. Uh, yeah, the, the thing I fear the most is depression because, you know, I've, I've always felt like there's a fire in my belly and even, you know, mostly at my lowest of points, I can go, "This will pass. We can do this." But there are times within my depression where I've doubted that and... Yeah, that's... (cries) I'm actually gonna... Can I get a tissue?

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. MS

      My biggest fear is, it's that, you know, really overwhelming depression where you doubt if you can make it through beyond it.

    20. SB

      You had... Do... You had those moments post, mainly where you didn't think you'd be a- you... there was doubt whether you'd be able to make it through a moment. Is this post leaving the Spice

  11. 1:05:57 – 1:07:58

    Life after the spice girls

    1. SB

      Girls, predominantly, or was there moments throughout the experience where...

    2. MS

      It's never... We've, we've never officially split up as the Spice Girls.

    3. SB

      Oh, really?

    4. MS

      Yeah. We took that decision because there was so much press, you know, interest in us at the time. So, uh, you know, I was really, really struggling. We were working on Forever, which is the third album, as a four-piece without Geri, and I'd worked on my solo record and I... and I was having a really, really hard time, and it was too much. I found the environment too much, and I think the girls knew me too well.You know, I was, I was dealing with these demons, these in- inner demons, and they could, they could just read me like a book. And I just didn't want to be in their company, because I had to deal with it myself, you know? So I, I did want to leave the band. But we, we took the decision to never officially split up because we, because we didn't want the press, press intrusion. We were terrified-

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MS

      ... of... 'Cause we knew... I mean, I slipped up once on a TV show. I did a show with Frank Skinner, and I used past tense. I said, "When I was a Spice Girl," or whatever the wording I used was, and the press jumped on it. And there was camera crews outside my house the next day.

    7. SB

      Frightening.

    8. MS

      And they chased me down the road. And yeah, and it was just like, we, we couldn't, uh, none of us could face that. And the, the, you know, the beauty of that is now we kind of feel like... At the time, we needed separation. You know, we'd been like this. Our lives had been so intertwined that we needed that space. But now we've had time to do that and grow and become individu- individuals and mums and, and have these separate lives, we can come back together, and we, we really enjoy each other and respect each other. So it... We quite like that we've never split up. You know what I mean?

    9. SB

      Yeah.

    10. MS

      So we'll always, we'll always be Spice Girls. When people say former Spi- I'm not a former Spice Girl. I am a Spice Girl. And we will always all be Spice Girls. Even Victoria, when she didn't go on stage in 2019, she's still a very, very important part of that show.

  12. 1:07:58 – 1:21:08

    Coming back together as the spice girls

    1. MS

    2. SB

      2019.

    3. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      Your, your, you know... You recount in your book about how coming back together was actually a really pleasant experience, and it-

    5. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      It taught you a lot about your previous time together in the, in the Spice Girls. But let's start with the point about Victoria, then. A lot of, lot was written about that. Obviously when press do interviews, they're trying to twist your words and find something, "Wow, how can we turn them against each other?" Like, that's what... That's the game, right?

    7. MS

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      They do... (laughs) Um, so how, how did you all feel when y- you know, you knew that Victoria wasn't coming back to the group and you were gonna be doing it as a four?

    9. MS

      Yeah. There, there was a few feelings about that, because obviously we were gutted.

    10. SB

      Hmm. Well, you would be.

    11. MS

      You know, we wanted her there.

    12. SB

      Yeah.

    13. MS

      Totally wanted her there. And we were scared 'cause we thought, "Shit, are people gonna want us as a four-piece?" Um, you know, in a different configuration. And the thing is, you know, let's not... You know, well, let's be honest here. Victoria is a huge international icon. You know, she has gone on to be something in her own right, you know. In the fashion world, in the world of celebrity, she's much bigger than the others of us individually. Um, I don't think anything's as big as the Spice Girls. You know, we all feel that. But without her, it's like, are people gonna take us seriously? Um, so yeah. So there was, there was different feelings around it. The, the wonderful thing about it was she was very supportive, and it was really important for us to make sure she was happy. So she was involved creatively. You know, we wanted her to sign everything off. We wanted her to know exactly what we were gonna do. And it was such an incredible experience, I... It felt like she was part of it anyway.

    14. SB

      Why didn't you... I didn't... I missed the story at that time, but why didn't she want to be... What was her public statement? What was the reason?

    15. MS

      The public statement is because of family and commitments.

    16. SB

      Okay.

    17. MS

      Which is completely, you know-

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. MS

      ... understandable. Um, but I think, you know, on a more personal level, and, and I think this has been said, I, I don't think she'd mind me saying, when we did the Olympics in 2012-

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. MS

      ... she had a really hard time.

    22. SB

      Okay.

    23. MS

      It was... She was petrified. I mean, we were all bloody petrified, but to the point where it's worth it.

    24. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    25. MS

      But I think it was so... You know, it was... She had a lot of anxiety around that performance that she was like, "You know what, girls? I'm putting my dancing shoes up."

    26. SB

      Hmm.

    27. MS

      Um, away. So yeah, so we totally got... You know, we respected her decision.

    28. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. MS

      Um, but yeah, but we were still sad about it. But you know what? We went on to have the most successful tour we've ever done, um, you know, with her blessing, sadly without her. But we did it, and it was incredible, and it really is truly some of my happiest Spice Girls memories.

    30. SB

      One of the things that I wish I'd asked Liam Payne when I spoke to him about One Direction and the, the group dynamic, and then what happens when the group are no longer making music-

Episode duration: 1:34:25

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