Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind | E158

1. 0:00 – 1:32

   Intro

   1. MPMichael Pollan0:00

      Depression, anxiety, addiction, mental disorders that involve a rigidity of thought, what psychedelics appear to do is break those habits of thought.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      What is the cost of this though?

   3. MPMichael Pollan0:12

      That's a great question. (dramatic music) One of the 100 most influential people in the world. Please welcome Michael Pollan.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:19

      You've written six New York Times bestsellers.

   5. MPMichael Pollan0:22

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:22

      And they're on such a diverse range of topics.

   7. MPMichael Pollan0:25

      Two of the topics I've worked on have turned into movements. I was writing a piece on the meat industry and how fucked up it is, and it led to this movement to try to reform agriculture. Then I got into psychedelics. They're much better than the results for antidepressants when they came on the scene, and we're talking about potential cures, not simply symptoms. There are risks with this, and we don't talk about them nearly enough, and people are gonna get hurt.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:54

      One of the immersive journalistic pursuits you embarked on was this topic of caffeine.

   9. MPMichael Pollan0:58

      It allows us to function better. It allows us to work harder, longer. You're feeling the clearing of the mental fog.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:05

       I can tell you the cost of doing heroin every day, but no one can seem to tell me the cost of having three cups of coffee a day.

   11. MPMichael Pollan1:10

       If you really want to understand your relationship to this drug, you have to- (record screeches)

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:15

       So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO USA Edition. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (upbeat music)

2. 1:32 – 5:48

   Follow your passion

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:32

      Michael, I have to say, it's a real, a huge honor to speak to you. When I departed from my company and I started investigating what I was interested in, one of the things, alongside DJing and this podcast and many others, was psychedelics. I was so compelled by, um, this apparent, and I didn't have confirmation, this apparent increase in mental health disorders in my country.

   2. MPMichael Pollan1:52

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:52

      In the UK, as you know, as I know you've talked about many times, is that suicide is the single biggest ki- uh, killer of men under the age of 45. And I thought that the most sort of fulfilling thing I could do with the next chapter of my life was start a company in that space. That's how I came to the psychedelics industry.

   4. MPMichael Pollan2:08

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:08

      That's how I came to actually work in the psychedelics industry. And when I arrived in that industry, people said your name over and over and over again, and they told me, and I'm not blowing smoke up your ass, they told me that I had to... it was like I wasn't allowed in the industry until I'd read your book.

   6. MPMichael Pollan2:21

      (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett2:21

      Right? Um, How To Change Your Mind, it was that much of a pivotal book for my colleagues at the time. You've written six New York Times bestsellers, and they're on such a diverse arrange of topics. To be so successful in such a diverse range of topics in writing, my first question to you that I wanted to ask is, as you look back on your life and your career, why were you successful? What was it about you that made you successful?

   8. MPMichael Pollan2:50

      I think finding the right topics. I, I had a nose for topics that most people weren't paying attention to. I w- I felt very lucky, I was writing in these uncompetitive spaces. Nobody was writing about psychedelics except, you know, the small handful of people within the psychedelic community who write these books for one another that nobody else reads and they... and so I had, I've, I've, I remember thinking the whole time I was writing that book is like, "Where is everybody? Am I making a mistake here investing so much in this? Um, no one else is writing about it." And the same was true with food. There was very, when I started writing about food and agriculture, very little being written, so a willingness to go into places that other people, you know, weren't working in. I don't like writing in competitive environments. I'm not fast enough. (laughs) Um, so that was one thing. Um, I think there's something about the way I structure stories. So I don't start on page one with all the answers, and if you read the first page of anything I've written, I'm kind of an idiot on page one. Um, I've got questions, I don't have answers, and so my books are kind of detective stories or, you know, I, I just tell about the process of my figuring things out and going to this person and learning this and having this experience and learning that. And I think that readers don't like to be lectured at, and, um, and I don't do that. I, I take them along on the journey.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:12

      When, when I think about starting a business, one of the pieces of advice that, um, I would and I think a lot of entrepreneurs would give a young aspiring entrepreneur is to not pursue something that you're not genuinely interested about because-

   10. MPMichael Pollan4:22

       Oh yeah, th- well, without question. I mean that I write about things that I'm passionate about. Um, curiosity is the driver, and cultivating... Curiosity doesn't necessarily come naturally to everybody. It's a muscle you have to cultivate and you have to see the world in terms of questions rather than answers 'cause questions are always more interesting than answers. Uh, so I do cultivate that when I see something happening. I remember when I first read a little article in the New York Times saying they were giving psilocybin to cancer patients to help them deal with their fear of death. I'm like, "What's that about? Why would you do that? Why would you ever want to take a trip when you got a terminal diagnosis? I don't think I would want to do that." You know, I just had all these questions and the only way to answer them was to do reporting, was to go interview the patients and interview the doctors and satisfy my curiosity. So without question, I, I can't write about things I'm not interested in. I mean, I get, you know, and you can, as you can imagine, editors are always coming to me, "We would like an article on this or, or book on this," and I'm like, "I don't feel it." (laughs)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:28

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MPMichael Pollan5:28

       So, yeah. So you do have to, you do have to care about it. I mean, writing a book is such a long journey with so many twists and turns and, um, so if you, if you don't have some deep-seated drive to understand something, to tell a story, you're gonna, y- good chance you're gonna sink along the way.

3. 5:48 – 9:26

   Immersive journalism

   1. MPMichael Pollan5:48

   2. SBSteven Bartlett5:48

      And you really do go all the way. That's something that you're a fan of.

   3. MPMichael Pollan5:51

      Well, immersion is a big part of my work, and I think, and I think that's another, that's been another key thing. I can... uh, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot recently, um...But I can trace the moment where I was first exposed to the kind of journalism that I think of myself as doing. And that was when I was 13. My parents gave me a, a book called Paper Lion. It's a book of sports writing. It was about football, by, uh, a writer named George Plimpton. He was a literary person, but a sports writer too, and loved sports writing. And, um, he was kind of bored with how sports writing was done then, which is, you know, it's that cynical cigar-chomping guy on the sidelines with the hat who'd-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett6:36

      (laughs)

   5. MPMichael Pollan6:36

      ... just been there, done that, seen it all, has no sense of wonder or excitement anymore. And he thought, "There's a way to reinvent this form." And he, and what he did was he persuaded, uh, the Detroit Lions f- American football team to let him, um, train with them over the summer, summer training camp, and then start in a exhibition game at the beginning of the season as quarterback. So this guy had never played professional sports at all, um, was not an athlete. And there he was, um, facing this line of giant guys coming at him. And he could write about football in a way that no sports writer could, but neither any football player could, because they had been doing it since they were 10 or six, and they no longer saw it freshly. It was a job. But he had this incredible sense of wonder and humor, 'cause he's a fish out of water. And it opened up all these funny narrative possibilities. And I realized, that book just sat with me. I love that book. So when I started writing, I forget which book it was in, um, I real- I think it was my second book, it was a book about architecture, and then I realized I couldn't write this book unless I built something myself. And so finding how to put my, finding the way to put myself in the story is, uh, been key for me, and with, uh, agriculture, you know, I bought a cow and followed him through-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett8:06

      (laughs)

   7. MPMichael Pollan8:06

      ... the food system. Um...

   8. SBSteven Bartlett8:08

      Wait, you, you bought a cow?

   9. MPMichael Pollan8:09

      I did. I, I, I was writing a piece, uh, that became a chapter in The Omnivore's Dilemma-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett8:14

       (laughs)

   11. MPMichael Pollan8:15

       ... on the meat industry and how fucked up it is, and, um, and feedlots and, and the drugs they give the animals. And that was my assignment from the New York Times. And I found this, uh, and I was gonna do the piece in terms of I was gonna follow one animal through the whole system, from insemination to slaughter. And, um, this was a piece called Power Steer that, uh, was published in the New York Times. Uh, and you... It's on my website if you wanna, um, check it out for free. But along the way, the, one of the ranchers said, "If you really want to understand our business, you should buy one of these animals." And I thought immediately, "This is a great idea," because it's gonna do two things. It's gonna give me a character, even though it's an animal, um, which, you know, having an animal hero in a piece is always a good thing.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett9:02

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MPMichael Pollan9:03

       And it's gonna give me a different kind of access when I get to the feedlot and the slaughterhouse, 'cause I own this animal. I, I'm-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett9:10

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MPMichael Pollan9:10

       ... not just a journalist. And so I, I picked out this animal, number 534, um, and I followed him. And I, you know, I, I met him on the ranch where he was born, and then I had a reunion with him in the feedlot where he ended up, you know, several months later.

4. 9:26 – 17:09

   Trying to solve systemic problems with individual acts, BLM & food system

   1. MPMichael Pollan9:26

      Um...

   2. SBSteven Bartlett9:27

      I'm super intrigued by what happened to this cow-

   3. MPMichael Pollan9:29

      Oh, yeah, well... (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett9:31

      ... and how it felt. Were you emotionally attached to it at all when that, when it got, you know, reached its end- end of its days?

   5. MPMichael Pollan9:35

      I was a little. I didn't, they wouldn't... Something happened. So I had to publish the piece before he was slaughtered.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett9:41

      Right.

   7. MPMichael Pollan9:42

      He was sla- Uh, they wanted to publish the piece. I handed it in in February. They wanted to publish it in March, and he wasn't going to get slaughtered till June. I wanted to wait, because I still had very good access, 'cause nobody knew I was writing an expose on the, on the meat industry. I was just some goofball-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett9:57

      Yeah.

   9. MPMichael Pollan9:57

      ... following the life of this cow. And, um, but when the piece came out, the slaughterhouse was like, "We're not doing business with Pollan anymore." Um, and, uh, so I was hoping to retrieve the steaks and eat them, or, or try to eat them and see what I thought about it. And, um, uh, but they wouldn't, they wouldn't play anymore. Um, and it's interesting. When this piece came out, there was a, a whole, uh, explosion in the American media of people who wanted to save the cow, 'cause they knew he hadn't been killed yet. And I had people, I had someone in, uh, write me, uh, a, a movie producer in Beverly Hills wrote and say, "I want to buy your, your 534." And I said, "What are you gonna do with it?" "I'm gonna put it on my front lawn." And, uh, I was like, " (sighs) You know-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett10:47

       (laughs)

   11. MPMichael Pollan10:47

       ... saving one animal is not gonna fix the food system." And, and everybody thought that way. There was even a telethon on a vegan radio station in New Jersey. They were raising money, and they would pay me anything I wanted for this animal. And I'm like, "This is not, this is, you know, this is not how you change the meat system, by, like, having this poster boy steer." And they actually likened it to the Underground Railroad, that saving one slave was worth it. I was like, "That's interesting." Um, and, uh, so I did not sell it. Um, and it went through the process and-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett11:23

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MPMichael Pollan11:23

       ... somebody ate it, uh, but it wasn't me.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett11:26

       There's something sort of telling about that, about the human condition, where we believe that one-

   15. MPMichael Pollan11:31

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett11:31

       ... sort of surface-level act of apparent, probably virtue signaling, but apparent goodness is, is enough, or that we don't really c- care about the systemic resolution.

   17. MPMichael Pollan11:42

       No. Systems are hard to deal with, right? We're, we're, we evolved to deal with individuals and stories of individuals. And that's why this story was powerful, 'cause it was about an individual cow. But what matters is the system. This, you know, I, I, I chose it because it was representative of the system. It was a very typical animal going through a typical, start out on grass, kind of idyllic situation in, in, um, South Dakota, move on to this horrible feedlot where they stand in their own manure all day and eat corn, which makes them sick, and they have to take drugs.... and then they go through this slaughterhouse process, um, and, uh, which I described even though I didn't get to witness. But I think we have trouble dealing with systems. Um, and so we, we, we always have the poster child, you know. I mean, look how, you know, look at all the, um, nonprofits, how they advertise, right? There's one animal or there's one child that you're gonna save with your donation. And, uh, I, I just think it's a limitation of our imagination.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett12:38

       That's what I was thinking of, a very recent example of that, which is the tragic death of George Floyd-

   19. MPMichael Pollan12:43

       Hmm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett12:43

       ... and how that sparked people around the world, specifically on Instagram, posting a black tile. As a Black male, I looked at that and thought, "This is, like, the easy thing to do," right?

   21. MPMichael Pollan12:53

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett12:54

       But it doesn't solve the systemic issues o- of sort of race and race relations and discrimination. But, like, we can all do the, like-

   23. MPMichael Pollan13:00

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett13:00

       ... virtue signaling-

   25. MPMichael Pollan13:01

       Right.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett13:01

       ... socially, hashtag whatever, Black tile. But again, the, the complexity of the system below it, that's kind of cau- m- might be the cause of some of these things, is just does anybody really care to deal with that? You know, it's like...

   27. MPMichael Pollan13:13

       I think it's just overwhelming to people. (sighs) And, (sighs) you know, I don't... I mean, it is virtue signaling. I mean, all over Berkeley where I live, people still have Black Lives Matter signs-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett13:23

       (sighs)

   29. MPMichael Pollan13:23

       ... in their windows, you know, everywhere. Like, when are they gonna take them down? Are they ever gonna take them down? I understand the value of expressing that point of view, but, eh, there's so much more that needs to be done.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett13:37

       What does need to be done when we're thinking about r- sort of rewiring systems? Is it education? Is it political? Is it...
5. 17:09 – 26:37

   Caffeine and its impact on us

   1. MPMichael Pollan17:09

   2. SBSteven Bartlett17:09

      I would agree. Um, we, we started talking about the, the topic of, like, immersive journalism. One of the, s- one of the sort of, uh, immersive journalistic pursuits you embarked on was this topic of, of caffeine-

   3. MPMichael Pollan17:21

      Hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett17:21

      ... which I found really, really interesting because I believe there's a cost to everything in life-

   5. MPMichael Pollan17:27

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett17:27

      ... just generally, and the cost is always harder to see. And with caffeine in the culture, specifically in business, and even I can see it sort of taking hold in my own life, this topic of caffeine, I'm like, "People never talk about the cost of it," as if it's this super drug, we take it, it just sends us up-

   7. MPMichael Pollan17:40

      There's no free lunch. (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett17:41

      ... and then... Exactly, right? So I, and I started thinking, with anxiety on the rise, is there a, is there a risk that this sort of tampering with our, um, our emotional state is going to ruin the system that regulates us-

   9. MPMichael Pollan17:57

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett17:57

       ... naturally and make us go up okay, fine, when we take caffeine, but then the down, like every other drug, like heroin and cocaine, is gonna be e- e- equally, um, d- destructive?

   11. MPMichael Pollan18:09

       Yeah, I mean-I, you know, you're talking about the f- the law of compensation, I think is what Ralph Waldo Emerson called it. Um...

   12. SBSteven Bartlett18:16

       I love that. I've heard of that before.

   13. MPMichael Pollan18:17

       And that, that there's, there's always some compensating thing. There is no free lunch. And, um, and that was a real issue as people were trying to understand how caffeine worked, um, because it seemed to be a free lunch. Here was something with zero calories that gave you more energy.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett18:31

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MPMichael Pollan18:32

       Caffeine works by, um, blocking the action of a, a neurotransmitter, a neuromodulator, technically, uh, called adenosine. It's a chemical that we all have in our bodies that, um, over the course of the day, the levels rise, and it, um, plugs into a certain receptor in the brain. It's all over the brain. I think it's other parts of the body too. And adenosine is your body's signal to slow down, get ready for sleep. It builds sleep pressure. Um, and, uh, what caffeine does is it fits exactly in the same receptor and, and hijacks it. Basically, blocks the adenosine from getting to that receptor. So, the adenosine is still in your body, but it's not acting on your brain 'cause it can't get into those receptors. When the caffeine leaves your system, which takes a while to do, all that adenosine that's been building up, boom, comes in. And so you're more tired than you were before. So, you have this kind of rebound exhaustion. So, you're really borrowing that energy from the future rather than creating new energy-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett19:39

       Uh-huh.

   17. MPMichael Pollan19:39

       ... out of nothing. Um, it's still very useful under certain circumstances. I'm not a critic of caffeine. Um, I, it's, it might be my favorite drug, um, and I've tried a whole bunch.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett19:51

       (laughs)

   19. MPMichael Pollan19:51

       Um, and it was immersive journalism in that, uh, in this case, I had to stop doing something rather than doing something. So, in How to Change Your Mind, I tried LSD and psilocybin and 5-MeO-DMT and all these things that were really scary and hard for me, but this was harder. Giving up caffeine for three months, um, really was a stretch. And, but it was a really interesting experiment and it taught me that there's a great value in giving things up temporarily just to understand your relationship to them, understand your dependence on them.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett20:25

       What was hardest about it?

   21. MPMichael Pollan20:26

       Well, there was the withdrawal, which took a few days and was very unpleasant. I felt like kind of muzzy-headed. I felt like this veil had fallen between me and reality. Uh, things seemed less fresh, less immediate. Um, I didn't have headach- the headaches that some people report, and I didn't have the flu-like symptoms, but I didn't feel myself. And, uh, I was sluggish. I couldn't concentrate. I couldn't write for the first week. Um, I just, I, I, I, I said in the book, I felt like an unsharpened pencil. I just didn't have it. You know, it takes a certain amount of ego strength to launch into a, a writing project, uh, or launch into it every day, and I just didn't have it. And, uh, so I was like, "Uh, I don't know h- I don't know if I can do this for three months." After the first week or so, I found my way back that I could work, but I still didn't feel myself. And, and it began to occur to me that, how curious is that? Because what does that say? If, if I feel more normal on this drug than off this drug, 'cause I'm, I'm through the withdrawal period, but I came to see that my, my normal default consciousness was caffeinated consciousness, as it is for a great many of us. I mean, 90% of people on Earth have a daily relationship with caffeine, whether it's in, um, tea, coffee, soda, chocolate. Um, it's in a lot of things. You know, you, you meet people who say, "I, I can't talk to you until I've had a cup of coffee." "I, you know, I, I'm not civil. I can only read the paper." You know, people who just don't enter into social relations till they have a cup of coffee. The reason is they're going through withdrawal and they're cranky and they know it.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett22:04

       The amount of people probably in this room now, there's probably, you know, 12 people in this building, and of them, I think probably 12 of them have had that drug today.

   23. MPMichael Pollan22:13

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett22:14

       With this society, as you've said, people saying, "I can't function. I can't have a conversation until I've had a cup." What is the cost of this, though? Because it, uh, the, you know, I can tell you the cost of doing heroin every day.

   25. MPMichael Pollan22:23

       (laughs)

   26. SBSteven Bartlett22:23

       Or pretty much any other drug.

   27. MPMichael Pollan22:24

       Yeah, this is subtler.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett22:25

       Even sugar. I can tell you the cost of doing sug-

   29. MPMichael Pollan22:27

       Yeah.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett22:27

       ... having, you know, huge amounts of sugar every day, but no one can seem to tell me the cost of having three cups of coffee a day.
6. 26:37 – 30:18

   Pollination & drugs

   1. MPMichael Pollan26:37

   2. SBSteven Bartlett26:37

      You talk about the reason why- why coffee is addictive anyway from a pollination perspective, which I found really-

   3. MPMichael Pollan26:42

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett26:42

      No one's ever said that before.

   5. MPMichael Pollan26:43

      Yeah, well... Yeah. So, that was a- one of the interesting, uh, bits of research that I came across. Um, so like a lot of drugs that plants produce, it begins its life as a pesticide. Um, most of these alkaloids that we think are so great, whether it's cocaine or, um, uh, caffeine or, um... Oh, God, there's so many of them and they're not occurring to me right now. The- plants evolved these as chemicals that would, um, kill insects or discourage insects from eating them. And then we found that they had interesting effects on our brains if you got the dose right. And, um, so caffeine was designed- it kills insects at high doses. It also stops other plants from germinating nearby, so it- you get more habitat if you- if you- if your leaves contain caffeine and- and they drop. Um, but the cleverness of plants is such that some of them figured out that a really low dose of caffeine in their nectar would attract bees. And the, uh, the orange, the citrus family does this reliably. So, they've repurposed this pesticide as an attractant, 'cause you don't put pesticide in your nectar. That's where you attract insects.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett27:55

      (laughs)

   7. MPMichael Pollan27:56

      And, um, it turns out bees really like caffeine.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett27:59

      (laughs)

   9. MPMichael Pollan27:59

      And they will go preferentially to flowers that offer them caffeine. We don't know if they get a buzz, um, but they do prefer it. And it does for them what it does for us. It improves their memory. They're more likely to go back to the flower that gave them caffeine than any other flower and remember where it was. They will also work harder as, um ... so they become better workers, basically. So, the plants are manipulating the bees to do their bidding. We knew that, but in a much deeper way than we understood by essentially, you know, drugging them.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett28:33

       And then humans came along and just got hooked. (laughs)

   11. MPMichael Pollan28:34

       And then humans, yeah. Yeah. But- but the curious thing is, why should a pesticide have these mental effects for us? And the theory I advance in the book is that if you're a plant and you're- and you're bothered by pests, the best strategy is not to kill the pest. Because if you do that, if you just put out a lethal chemical, um, you're going to kill a bunch of the pests, but the resistant members, and there are always some mutations that give resistance, they're going to explode. Their population will explode, and you- and your tool will be gone. It won't work anymore.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett29:14

       Interesting.

   13. MPMichael Pollan29:14

       But if you merely discombobulate your predator, your pest, confuse it, which psychedelics and other drugs do, uh, make it lose its appetite, which most drugs do, um, you're much better off. 'Cause it won't- it- it won't have this kind of selective pressure.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett29:35

       Interesting.

   15. MPMichael Pollan29:35

       So, uh, I got this insight from my cat, Frank, who, um, had a real issue with catnip. I- I had a catnip plant in my garden and my garden was fenced, and every night when I was going out to the garden to pick something for dinner, Frank would follow me and look up at me. And he wanted to be shown where the catnip was. And I would show him to the catnip and he would roll in it and get really stoned.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett30:03

       (laughs)

   17. MPMichael Pollan30:03

       And, um, and then forget where he had seen the catnip. And he had to be reminded every single day. This is an intelligent cat. Like, "Where was that plant?" The plant had drugged him so that he would lose track of where it was.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett30:17

       Oh, wow.

7. 30:18 – 49:47

   Psychedelics

   1. SBSteven Bartlett30:18

   2. MPMichael Pollan30:18

      So, I thought that was a pretty clever plant.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett30:20

      Wow.

   4. MPMichael Pollan30:20

      Certainly more clever than Frank was.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett30:22

      Speaking of clever plants then. (laughs)

   6. MPMichael Pollan30:26

      Transition, yes.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett30:27

      Yeah, that wasn't bad, was it? Um, I- on the topic of psychedelics, which is- I referenced at the start-When I first heard about the concept of psychedelics, I, like you, 'cause I've heard you talk about your initial sort of perception of them, was terrified by the thought of losing my consciousness. I also thought, as you, you know, you talked about cancer anxiety in your writing and how patients with, suffering with cancer, I th- think the last thing I'd want to do is trip if I had-

   8. MPMichael Pollan30:52

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett30:52

      ... cancer. But also, another point that you made in, in a talk you, you gave was, I saw myself as a very logical, scientific, physical person and I thought that I couldn't be that and-

   10. MPMichael Pollan31:04

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett31:04

       ... spiritual or what-

   12. MPMichael Pollan31:05

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett31:05

       ... however you want to describe it or really-

   14. MPMichael Pollan31:07

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett31:07

       ... anything that I couldn't think or feel. Tell me about your journey then from going from that place to psychedelics. I, I, I know you, it's w- well-documented in, um, the journey you've taken, but I, but I really want to understand how your perception shifted and where it sits today a- as a spiritual-

   16. MPMichael Pollan31:23

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett31:23

       ... individual.

   18. MPMichael Pollan31:25

       So, I did see myself as a very materialist, uh, in my philosophy, um, I thought that the laws of nature we knew explained everything and anything else was supernatural, you know. And I'd talked to a lot of people who'd done psychedelics and had this big spiritual experience and so I was curious about it 'cause I did, I, I said somewhere that I thought I was kind of spiritually retarded. I just, it was a part of myself I hadn't developed and, uh, but I did have this misconception that, uh, to be spiritual is to believe in supernatural things.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett31:55

       Yeah.

   20. MPMichael Pollan31:55

       Okay? And that's kind of a scientific view, it's an assu- you know, scientists assume this about spiritual people. I had a couple of big experiences on psilocybin at, as I was researching the book, more immersive journalism, and um-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett32:10

       (laughs) Nice excuse (laughs) .

   22. MPMichael Pollan32:11

       Uh, and no, I, you know, I did feel, I was curious to try these things, but I also felt compelled. I think my readers expect me to do stuff, you know, that I'm writing about-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett32:22

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MPMichael Pollan32:22

       ... and not just be on the sidelines and so I did feel some real pressure to do it. But I was, I did these conversations with volunteers in these studies and individuals who had, you know, amazing experiences that completely changed their attitude toward death. I mean people who, who lost their fear of death after one four-hour experience on psilocybin. I mean, how does that happen? You, I mean, you, you have to be curious about that. Um-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett32:46

       Psilocybin being the active ingredient in magic mushrooms.

   26. MPMichael Pollan32:49

       In, in magic mushrooms, yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett32:50

       Yeah.

   28. MPMichael Pollan32:50

       Uh, but in these trials they get it in a pill form, it's kind of purified, but it's the same, same drug exactly. Um, so I had a couple really interesting experiences, um, that reset my understanding of what spiritual meant, um, and my experiences had to do with powerful connection to something bigger than me that I felt. Um, specifically for me, it was the plants in my garden that, I mean, I'm a gardener, I've been writing about plants one way or another for a long time, and I've always admired plants and I think, you know, as we were talking about the, the, the, um, the citrus plants with the caffeine, I think they're really intelligent, um, in a very different way than we are. But it was, that was kind of an intellectual conceit. I didn't feel them as, um, conscious beings and during this trip, I did. I was in my garden and all the plants were like talking to me. I mean, not literally talking to me, but they were returning my gaze, they were present, they had a sentience, um, and it was, and they were very benign. They, they liked me (laughs) .

   29. SBSteven Bartlett34:01

       (laughs)

   30. MPMichael Pollan34:02

       I took care of them, you know (laughs) -
8. 49:47 – 52:04

   Are psychedelics the cure to mental health problems?

   1. MPMichael Pollan49:47

      um, weaken it.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett49:48

      I've read that, that, um, that sort of analogy of the hill and I f-... and it really stayed with me, that hill with the snow.

   3. MPMichael Pollan49:54

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett49:54

      This idea that our trauma or whatever it might be, our past experiences, have created these grooves which we just s- you know, slide down every single day and over and over again. And you talked about h- previously how, um, that's why there might be a case for doing psychedelics later in your life.

   5. MPMichael Pollan50:07

      When you're older. Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett50:08

      Yeah, yeah, exactly.

   7. MPMichael Pollan50:08

      Yeah. I, I do feel, I mean, as life goes on, we become more creatures of habit.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett50:12

      Yeah.

   9. MPMichael Pollan50:12

      I mean, it's just a given. It's about learning. We learn what works. We learn the algorithms that get us through the day, get us through a fight with our spouse, get us through negotiating with our children. Whatever it is, we have these algorithms, they're handy, they work, they save us time, and we are efficient creatures. Um, but, but habits blind you to reality. You know, they, they, they... You're one step removed from experience. You're, you're saying, "Okay, that's this situation, I'm gonna play this tape." And you don't... you lose your sense of wonder and that's so important and, um, and awe. You know, a- awe is one of the most important emotions and as we get older... You know, kids are... have this awe experience every day, every minute.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett50:57

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MPMichael Pollan50:57

       You know, it could be a cookie, it could be walk down the street. I mean, it's just incredible. And the reason is that it's all new to them and they haven't formed these habits. Um, and as we get older, I think that's where the value of psychedelics r- is really important, because they are reliable awe inducers, um, and that they make you see things freshly. And, um, you know, I talk in the book about this very common psychedelic insight that love is the most important thing in the world. And we laugh and it sounds like a Hallmark card and such a cliché, but what is a cliché? It's just... it's a truth that's been overused and, and, and we protect ourselves with this sense of irony and banality, but love is the most important thing in the world (laughs) .

   12. SBSteven Bartlett51:46

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MPMichael Pollan51:46

       So there's truth to that and that the line between banality and profundity is very fine. And, um, and so, you know, you're always hearing people who have psychedelic experiences and they come to you with this revelation of the obvious. Um, but we need to be reminded of the obvious.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett52:03

       Mm-hmm.

9. 52:04 – 1:04:08

   How to freshen your mind & get out of your comfort zone

   1. SBSteven Bartlett52:04

      Do you think there's another way just to remain fresh in the mind other than needing to do a psychedelic trip? Because I, I even relate... I'm 29, but I relate to me getting stuck in the same patterns of thought which can divulge into like a bitterness or like, they can s- you know, some of the, some of my patterns and habits result in happiness and fulfillment and feelings of contentment and then o- others can result in like bitterness and resentment-

   2. MPMichael Pollan52:26

      (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett52:26

      ... and other negative things. So I'd love to be able to do some... a fresh fall of snow on some of those. (laughs)

   4. MPMichael Pollan52:31

      Yes, I know. I know, and without using psychedelics. I mean, learning something new, doing something new is incredibly, um, revitalizing. Travel is. I mean, think of, think of like how when you travel somewhere, you're in a new country, you've never been there, all your ou- algorithms fail.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett52:53

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MPMichael Pollan52:53

      Like, you know, the menu is-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett52:57

      (laughs)

   8. MPMichael Pollan52:57

      ... has full of unexpected things. Um, walking down the street, you don't see the same brand names you see everywhere. You, you're e- so your senses are, are, are really working hard 'cause you're taking in lots of new information. That's why it's so exhausting.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett53:12

      (laughs)

   10. MPMichael Pollan53:12

       But it's, it's so wonderful too. So I think travel is one thing. I think learning a new skill. Um, you know, I think that for me, that's really important. It's what I love about journalism. You know, I get paid as an adult to learn whole new fields. You know, I'm, I'm getting paid now to learn about neuroscience and consciousness.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett53:29

       (laughs)

   12. MPMichael Pollan53:29

       It's so great. Um, s-... but, you know, and, and some jobs don't allow you to do that. That isn't the nature of journalism, it's in the nature of what you do.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett53:38

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MPMichael Pollan53:38

       You get to talk to anybody you want.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett53:40

       I was... So before I ge- I asked the question, I was thinking, I, I was thinking if I was to answer it myself, it's this.

   16. MPMichael Pollan53:44

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett53:44

       Basically is when I walk away from these conversations, I... it's almost like sometimes a psychedelic trip or e- just a re- a real shaking of what I thought to be true.

   18. MPMichael Pollan53:52

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett53:53

       And it, and it... yeah. (overlapping)

   20. MPMichael Pollan53:55

       Oh, I get that after I do an interview.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett53:56

       Yeah.

   22. MPMichael Pollan53:56

       You know, I, I, I, I, I came from an interview with this neuroscientist and it was like so exciting like to think abo-... I hadn't thought about things that way. And, um, so I think putting in y- yourself in situations where there's a lot of new information and you're out of your comfort zone. The comfort zone is the problem, right? And, um, if you can put yourself in a situation and le- and, and also, you know, we, we tend to gravitate to what we do well.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett54:25

       Yeah.

   24. MPMichael Pollan54:25

       We get reward for that. But, you know, try working on something you don't do well, you know.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett54:30

       I was just thinking then about how when people get older, they tend to go on holidays to the same places. (laughs)

   26. MPMichael Pollan54:34

       Yes. Right.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett54:35

       When people are young, they go to somewhere new. (laughs)

   28. MPMichael Pollan54:36

       They go... yeah, they don't want to repeat themselves.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett54:38

       Yeah. (laughs)

   30. MPMichael Pollan54:38

       No, it's true. Uh, no, it's... uh, uh, so I found this... at this phase of life, um, the psychedelic experience was really valuable for that reason, um, that it did cause me to rethink things, have new perspectives, um, and have this wonderful feeling of awe and be reminded of these things. How much I love plants, how much I love love-
10. 1:04:08 – 1:06:33

    Our last guest’s question

    1. MPMichael Pollan1:04:08

       of it.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:08

       You know that there's a tradition on this podcast where the previous guest writes a question for the next guest. They don't know who they're writing it for. The question is, as you've juggled your life work, relationships, friendships, and self-time, what things have been key to building your resilience?

    3. MPMichael Pollan1:04:24

       Doing new things, including taking psychedelics, which has definitely, uh, affected me and, and in- uh, contributed to my resilience. But I, I think it's seeking out new projects and, um, uh, doing things that break you out of habitual ways of thinking and responding to things. Habit is wonderful, it's very efficient, but it's deadening too, um, so I, I'm often thinking... And I, I am a creature of habit, I have like a whole routine every day to get myself to the desk to write, but, but breaking it is, is, uh... I think breaking habits, I would say, would be an important one.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:05

       You've spoken to that throughout this conversation, so that's a beautiful ending, this, this idea of leaving your comfort zones as well. Thank you. Thank you for, um, all the work you're doing. It's really inspiring to me that an author could be so powerful.

    5. MPMichael Pollan1:05:16

       (laughs)

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:16

       And, um, I, I hope we can have another conversation again once your, your book about consciousness is out because I'm sure it'll be equally inspiring.

    7. MPMichael Pollan1:05:21

       I'll look forward to that. It's been a great pleasure talking to you.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:23

       Thank you, Michael.

    9. MPMichael Pollan1:05:24

       Thank you. (instrumental music plays)

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:26

        I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. As the seasons have begun to change, so has my diet, and, um, right now, I'm just gonna be completely honest with you, I'm starting to think a lot about slimming down a little bit because over the last couple of... probably the last four or five months, my diet has been pretty bad, um, and it started to show a little bit, really over the last two months. I go to the gym about 80% of the time, so I track it with ten of my friends in a WhatsApp group in this tracker online that we all use together. And so one of the things I'm doing now to reduce my calorie intake and trying to get back to being nutritionally complete in all I eat is I'm having the Huel protein shake. Thank you, Huel, for making a product that I actually like. The salted caramel is my favorite. I've got the banana one here, which is the one my girlfriend likes, but for me, salted caramel is the one. (instrumental music plays)

Episode duration: 1:06:34