The Diary of a CEOMo Gawdat: A WARNING about Stress & Anxiety! This Is Causing 70% Of Heart Attacks In Young People!
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,018 words- 0:00 – 2:01
Intro
- MGMo Gawdat
There are only three ways where stress will break you, but the majority of how stress kills us is because of ... But this is completely within your control.
Mo Gawdat is back.
- NANarrator
And this time, he's on a mission to help millions of people manage their stress.
- MGMo Gawdat
No matter what their circumstances.
Stress is very good for you, until it kills you. And what most people don't understand is that it's an addiction. Stress is a badge of honor. It means that I'm wanted, I'm needed. And the reality is that 80% of the stuff you do at work is just to prove you're alive. But we tell ourselves we're too busy. That's a lie. But the truth is that we are getting to the point where this turning into burnout, anxiety, panic attacks. We're all suffering. Now, I think the most interesting part of stress is to understand that what breaks us is the long application of obsessions and nuisances. Nuisances are stressors that are triggered every day, and there are so many of them. The first 10 minutes of your day, you get 10, 15 stressors. And then obsessions create a lot of stress as a result of the lies that you told yourself. This is quite serious.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do we do about it though?
- MGMo Gawdat
So, you get stressed in four modalities: mentally, emotionally, physically, or spiritually. And each of those is a different language. So your mental stress speaks to you in a language that is different than your emotional stress. But if you learn that language, then you can easily deal with that stress when it happens. And it's simple techniques, so we should cover as many of them as we can. So, first of all ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Congratulations, Diary of a CEO gang. We've made some progress. 63% of you that listen to this podcast regularly don't subscribe, which is down from 69%. Our goal is 50%. So if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know. And the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you, and enjoy this episode. (upbeat music)
- 2:01 – 7:08
Mo How Are You Doing?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mo, how are you doing?
- MGMo Gawdat
Uh, I'm here again. Love it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Uh, it's always a pleasure to be with you, Steve. I, I'm doing, um, I am somewhere between the best time of my life and, uh, and the most interestingly inviting for change time of my life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you mean?
- MGMo Gawdat
I think the, I think I'm, I'm, thanks to you, of course, by the way, and, and many others, I've, I've, I think my message is getting to a lot of people. I think that's, uh, really, really, really ... it feels such an honor to be actually making progress on my mission on what I stand for. Uh, but I have to say, I think the world is changing in so many ways that doing what we've always done may not deliver the same results. So I feel that I have to revisit very deeply, uh, how I can continue to help. I h- how I can continue to explain what I think will be probably the most needed in the, in the times to come. But, uh, but also not, um ... I think most people don't realize how different the world is going to be in the next five years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you talking about AI again, Mo?
- MGMo Gawdat
It's not just AI, Steve. We know that. It's not just AI. It's not just AI.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is it?
- MGMo Gawdat
Remember last time we met, I, w- w- in closing, I was telling you we're hitting the perfect storm. Uh, economics, geopolitical, uh, climate, AI, uh, synthetic biology. Um, yeah. And I think the, the, the m- the highlight of it is what I call the end of the truth if you think about what's about to happen in our world. And, uh, yeah, I, I, I will openly say this is going to be the most stressful time of any generation that we've ever met, you and I. Uh, it's, it is so disruptive in so many ways. It's so disruptive. It doesn't have to be stressful. It can be navigated so beautifully. Uh, but it is going to be so unusual, so unfamiliar for so many of us, I think.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's gonna be the cause of the stress?
- MGMo Gawdat
Uh, m- uh, the m- biggest reason is the pace and the unfamiliarity of the change. It's not the, the devastation of the impact, if you think about it. I, as I said, I think we can all sail through this. I mean, a big part of my focus this year is to, is to help explain how, how people can see all that's happening and really, uh, and really sail through it in a way that doesn't, uh, halt the progress, if you want. But, but so much change in such a short amount of time, I think the reality is that humans become very stressed when we have a lot of unfamiliar, um, you know, change happening in front of us. And I think this is where we stand today. We stand in a world where I think, I think it's led by economics, the level of debt in, in western societies, uh, that cannot be fixed with the normal execution of fiscal policies that leads governments to, to, um, d- dilute our economies in ways that are affecting, that is, you know, basically everyone feels. Uh, but I have to admit, I think that w- you know, the current economic and geopolitical view of the world is leading lots of governments in the world to, um, yeah, to, to create, um, to create conflicts that are-... uh, that are going to expand beyond the current horizon. Uh, I- I- I don't know if this is how (laughs) we wanna start the conversation, but I- I believe, you know, you know how it is, it's wars are not the result of conflict. Conflict is the needed trigger to start a war. Uh, or the illusion of a conflict is the needed trigger to start a war that helps fiscal policy and sets geopolitical stance on situations. And I think our world is becoming, quite interestingly, a world where the truth is morphed in ways that, uh, you and I, uh, are unable to figure out so that we can, uh, so that we can agree to the leaders doing things that we shouldn't allow them to do. And as a result of that, we, most of us, are going to be in a dilemma economically, politically, sometimes safety-wise, and sometimes, um, purpose-wise. Uh, very, uh, very unusual times.
- 7:08 – 12:31
Mo's New Book & The State Of The World
- MGMo Gawdat
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you think about the times we're living in, more broadly, what is the most important sort of context in your, in your mind for the viewer to understand? If they're trying to understand how you're seeing the world right now, 'cause you've written a book now about the subject of stress. And I know that you're someone who's got, you know, so many different books in your mind and in your soul that you're always working on, sometimes for years and years, sometimes those books never make it out. So, for you to commit your energy and time to writing a book about stress, for me, as someone that knows you well, it is a clue of sorts to a perspective you have-
- MGMo Gawdat
The top topic, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... on the nature of the world. What is that na- nature of the world? What is the backdrop there that you're seeing?
- MGMo Gawdat
It is the top topic in my mind. Uh, fi- first of all, I, I wrote this because of my co-author, Alice. Alice, uh, came to me at a point in time and she said, uh, uh, "You know, you cannot continue to write about happiness and well-being without addressing stress." Right? Alice herself had a very, uh, stressful, you know, uh, stage of her life in her 20s, and she learned through it that it's not the events of your life that stress you, it's the way that you deal with them that does, right? And- and so we started to work on this, um, around, uh, 2021, uh, but then we suddenly recognized that this probably is the topic of the time, right? So- so Unstressable is a- a part of a big strategy to try and get a million people out of stress every year, uh, simply because, uh, I think the mounting stress in the world is, one, uh, because of events outside most people's controls. Uh, and two is because stress will cause more stress. So- so what is happening in our world today, w- w- you walk the streets and you feel it, right? You know, you- you can, you can easily see that people are struggling economically, for example, and so they are, um, behaving in ways that are stressing others. Less, you know, you know, it's- it's a bit less safe in the City of London, it's a bit, um, you know, more, um, challenging to make ends meet and so on and so forth, right? So, the truth of the matter is that the events are leading those who are not, uh, capable of dealing with stress to a situation where they- where b- where they will be more stressed. Okay? And- and you asked me, "What is the state of the world?" I think the state of the world is that we... Let me try to explain this. Rem- rem- if- im- think of a, think of hunters-gatherers. Right? Uh, when hunters-gatherers, um, when the best hunter in the tribe went out to hunt, you could probably feed the tribe for a couple of days more. Right? When the best farmer, uh, you know, managed h- his or her farm better, you could probably feed the tribe for a month more, right? When the best manufacturer, uh, manufactured something, you could probably feed or serve the world for a month more. Scale continues to grow, right? But at the same time, the- the gain of the best hunter was probably two more wives. The gain o- of the best farmer was probably millions of dollars. The gain of the best industrialist was probably billions of dollars. The- the- the award, the reward that you get as a result of automation, so think of it as- as the, uh, you know, as the conduit that you put your efforts through to get something on the other side, gets magnified along time. Now, with what is about to happen from an economic and technological point of view, the gains are going to become massive, right? So one platform owner, such as OpenAI for example, will almost entirely own, for a while until they are disrupted, the commodity that we call intelligence, right? They- they- they will almost have a plug in the wall where, you know, you plug in and you get 100 IQ more, uh, points more, right? Uh, uh, th- the amount of power that this generates for the company, for the country, for the economy, for the culture, uh, becomes prohibitive of every other company and every other culture. And so everyone's competing, right? Uh, most people don't talk about that because they're not aware of the scale of the conflict, if you want. So, we are about to head into a world where nations that are struggling economically have found an opportunity to get out of where they are, hmm, uh, at the expense of the rest of society, and that's going to cause a lot of stress. It's gonna cause stress in the replacement of jobs, it's gonna cause stress economically, it's gonna cause stress about the uncertainty of geopolitical, uh, landscape, uh, it's gonna cause stress around, you know... I- I'm- I'm even I am not able to keep up.... with the speed at which technology is changing, right? So that becomes... All of that change, all of that uncertainty, I think, is going to cause, uh, uh, a situation where a lot of us are dealing with things that
- 12:31 – 17:14
The Speed Of The World
- MGMo Gawdat
might make us anxious.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was looking at some of Ray Kurzweil's work. He's obviously-
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... one of the leading futurists in the world, and there was a chap called, um, I think it was called Michael Simmons, that studied his work and produced some predictions based on his predictions, and he said that if you're 10 years old now, by the age of 60, you'll experience a year's change at today's rate in 10 days.
- MGMo Gawdat
Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And if you're 40 now, you'll experience... By the time you get to 60, you'll experience a year's change in three months at today's rate. And in the 21st century, we'll experience, I think he said 10,000 years of change, which is a thousand times more or whatever than the, yeah, than the previous, um, century. But I remember thinking about how, how one can navigate that without, you know, losing, losing their mind, to be honest. If, if the world is changing at such a speed and you feel disemp-... You surely would feel disempowered to some degree.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. Uh, I mean, the, one of the very first principles of Unstressable is the idea of limit. So it's the idea of being able to choose what to let in and what not to let in because there is that constant attempt to keep up with what's happening, uh, that, uh, goes beyond human ability. And, and in reality, uh, you know, I, I, as I said, I, I can't even keep up with what's happening. I, I don't know if you've seen the latest editions of ChatGPT or Sora or whatever. You can now have full conversations, full conversations with an engine that appears very human that, you know, um, changes its tonalities, that, uh, answers in a very clever way that is so political and so well-presented. You know, when you ask the, the difficult questions, it will say things like, "Oh, no," you know, it just says th- "I've been subject to human ingenuity. And when humans do this, they
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
... don't know." Seriously? Like, a machine is so good at giving me the answer that politicians give me? That... And, and it's quite interesting when you really think that this is... Last time we spoke about, uh, you know, AI was, what, a year ago?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
There is a point in time where your well-being is not... Uh, as a matter of fact, all, all the time, your b- your well-being is not the result of the events happening in your life. You know, u- as I said, the, the slogan of Unstressable is, "It's not the events of your life that stress you, it's the way you deal with them that does." Right? And there is a point, uh, uh, we were chatting before we, we started, uh, uh, uh, filming, that, you know, w- you and I make choices, you and I make choices that stress us, right? And, and believe it or not, we make those choices not because we're not intelligent enough to recognize the impact. We make those choices because we are so caught up on the, in that cycle, right? And that cycle, hmm, keeps speeding up, and you get caught up in it. And you and I are the, are the kinds of people that, you know, think a little too much of ourselves. Like, "I can keep, I can keep going. I can keep faster. I, I can go faster and then..." Right? "I can take more." Hmm? The truth is, no, I think the, I think we're in- entering a time of human evolution, if you ask me, but it's about time that you make your well-being your number one top priority, your number one top priority because it's, uh, it seems to me that we are all getting into... And forget all of the big picture stuff, you know, economic and geopolitical and so on, but ask me how many of the people that you know, hmm, friends, acquaintances, coworkers, whatever, who are not stressed. Right? There, there are studies now that will tell you 70 to 80% of clinics visits, of doctor visits are because of stress-related illness. Right? This is quite serious. And, and, you know, sometimes you look back at COVID days and you say, "This is the biggest pandemic of our, of, of our time." It's not. Stress is the bigge- biggest pandemic of our time by a very, very, very large margin. Almost everyone you know is stressed in a s- in an, in an interesting way, right? Now, stress in itself is not a bad thing. You know, if you have a presentation or a, or a podcast with an important person tomorrow and you're preparing for it, stress is good for you, right? But the truth is that we are getting to the point where good is turning into burnout, it's turning into anxiety, it's turning into panic attacks, it's turning into... You know, it, it really is getting the toll on, on, you know... We're, we're all suffering. So, we have to change that. We have to find a way where we can actually deal with our world as it is because we're not gonna be able to change that world so that we're not as stressed by it as, as the world is making it, uh, you know, mm-mm, sort of dictating to us that we should be that stressed.
- 17:14 – 26:41
Stress Is The New Addiction
- MGMo Gawdat
- SBSteven Bartlett
In the book, you describe stress as the new addiction.
- MGMo Gawdat
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why, why are we addicted to stress?
- MGMo Gawdat
Well, it's a se- a status symbol. It's a status symbol. S- so there are two ways we, uh, invite stress proudly into our life. One, one way is, "I'm busy," is, is a badge of honor now, right? It's like, "I'm busy" means "I'm wanted, I'm needed." Okay? It means that, "Look at me. You know, I, I have enough to do." Right? And some- sadly, if you're not in that space, you start to tell yourself, "Maybe I should be in that space." The opposite of ra- of, of sanity, if you ask me, right? Other is because we're unable to sit with our brains. We're unable to simply say, "Look, I'm just gonna sit down and reflect on the week." Because if you, you know, if you start to sit with yourself, demons pop up. Like, "Oh, you're not so g- you're, you're, you're not good enough. Oh, you know, they, they didn't like you when you said this. Oh, I don't..." Right? All of the negative thoughts pop up. And s- s- in- interestingly, the, that psychological discomfort, if you want, one of the easiest way beyond social media and one of the easiest ways to get rid of it is to keep your brain busy in something else.So, you keep adding stuff, right? And, and in a very interesting way, I think you and I both experience that. You make decisions, you design your life, and then the stress follows, hmm, two and a half months later, okay? I know for a fact, this is my fourth book, right? And even though Alice is really, really, really doing an amazing amount of the work that's needed for the book, I get burnt out every book, right? Publishing a book is just a grueling job, hmm, simply because people don't buy books because of the content that's in them, right? They buy them because of the marketing that you do about them, right? And it's, you know, it's my biggest job if I wanna get a million people out of stress, to simply make them, make people pre-order the book because if they pre-order the book, the book pops up on the bestseller list, and then a million people... Not a million but, you know, 100,000 people get to see it every day and think about stress, right? The, the challenge is, hmm, you know it's going to happen, and yet you had a couple of speaking engagements and four podcast recordings and one trip to do this and, right? And then in the middle of all this... Actually, it was my year this year and, you know, my mom fell and, you know, I lost my brother and my sister, and, you know, it was a very difficult year. But I didn't know that this was going to be the case back in November when I was planning my February and March, right? (laughs) And so we're going through those cycles, hmm, and then suddenly life pops up and goes like, "All right. Let me show you what it is." Okay? And yet, you know, on the next book or on the next tour or on the next, you know, work appointment, we just overload ourselves to the point that is beyond human. It's, it is, if you ask me, it ha- it has all of the symptoms of addiction, okay? You know, it is a, a, um, you know, a- a- a substance almost that we're using, hmm, because it justifies to us that, you know, this is the way we should live.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, what would my workaholic brain say? My workaholic brain would rebuttal you, Mo, and say, "Well, if I don't load my calendar, and if I don't work 100-hour weeks, then I'm gonna miss out on my own potential. I'm not gonna live the life I could have lived. I could, I, you know, I... If I keep working like this, I'm gonna be able to get a big plane and a mansion and a sports car, and I'm gonna-
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... be free and I'm gonna have the best holidays and the best food. So, that's why I'm doing it."
- MGMo Gawdat
Absolutely not the truth. You, you know that for a fact that the week you don't work is the week you are most productive. You know that for a fact that, you know, that... I mean, think about it, huh? I could load my calendar with a million podcast interviews, and that would never allow me the time to write a book. The, the, the reason why, hmm, we, we, we... You, you may have a diff- you may make a difference to anything, to your, your, your relationship with your loved ones, to your career, to your, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, contribution to whatever, hmm, is because you allow yourself those spaces, hmm, where, in which creativity happens, in which ingenuity happens, in which real connection happens, in which, you know. And, and you know that for a fact, you know for a fact that you're heading to Australia, hmm, that you're gonna produce nothing in that trip other than consuming what you've produced before. Correct?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's true.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah? And, and so, and so, so the question is, where is the balance? Is the balance, is the balance in me loading my calendar for my potential, or is the balance in freeing my calendar for my potential? So, so this year, for, for example, I have, uh, I struggled with, with two things. I mean, my team is an incredible team who are very motivated, very, very hardworking, and each carries a separate re- responsibility, right? So, they, they'd all pu- pull on my availability, right, to get things achieved, hmm? And so what do they do? One will pop up and say, "I have this incredible guest, you know, this Steven Bartlett guy is great guy."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
"You should have him on your podcast. You're gonna be in London that day. Why don't you invite him over?" Right? And then another will say, "Oh, but hold on, you know, this newspaper wants to talk to you." And then a third will say, "Oh, but there is this customer that wants you to speak," and, and so on, right? And what ends up happening is that you and I, I don't blame you, and every one of us, hmm, when presented with opportunities, you go like, "Come on, man, push yourself a little bit." Right? Two things happen. You push yourself to the point where you end up getting burnt out, okay? By the way, I, I say that with love but especially when you get older. Like, your body just can't take it anymore, right? At the same time, what ends up happening is that you're, uh, you're depriving yourself of the true productivity. The true productivity is that one hour in the morning where you're not stressed, where your calendar is not loaded, hmm, where you sit down and write the perfect email to someone that changes something or make the perfect call to someone that does something for you, or you write down a concept that b- fits in your next book or... And so on and so forth. And that applies to everyone, huh? It, it is that one hour in the morning where I make my coffee and I sit with Hannah, my wife, and we connect so deeply, right? It's that one hour. And the question is, how valuable is that? How valuable is that hour as compared to the consumption hours, all of the hours where you're being used not to, not to realize your potential, hmm, but to, but to react to potential you've already achieved? And for all of work, hmm, I mean, I, when I, when I ran my business at Google, hmm, I refused to be in meetings, openly.I was like, "Why?" Hmm? And by the way, I encouraged my people, huh? The idea of showing up in a meeting, hmm, is just to say, "Hey, by the way, I'm here. I clicked in in the morning, uh, stamped my, uh, my entry card," or whatever. I don't know what you call it in English. But I- I attended, hmm, and I am alive. Look at me, I'm sending an email just so that you know I exist, right? I think in my entire career, 12 years at Google, I sent four emails. I initiated four emails, okay? Yes, I responded to- to emails that basically said, "Mo, what do you think of that?" If an email didn't say, "Mo, what did you think of that?" I wouldn't respond.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- MGMo Gawdat
They're not asking for my opinion there, but, uh, why should I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, why- why- why weren't you sending, initiating more emails?
- MGMo Gawdat
Because you initiate one email and you get a shitload of emails back.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Right? And- and, oh, what's the point, right? Why don't you just simply tell yourself, "Hey, by the way, I have no need to prove that I exist. The proof that I exist is I deliver my numbers." Right? And so when I, when I initiated an email, people read it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So how did you get things done then?
- MGMo Gawdat
Called people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Phone calls?
- MGMo Gawdat
Or- or walks and, or- or conversations in the corridors or, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, a quick, um, like, "Hey, by the way, what's up with this?" And we had weekly reviews, and we had, you know, lots of connections, human connections, right? By the way, most of the time, nothing requires you to interrupt the flow, most of the time, to interrupt the flow of the weekend. No- nothing cannot be discussed in the weekly review on Monday, right? And- and I think that the reality is that we're creating, you s- we're saying it's an addiction, hmm? You're creating all of those circumstances to make it look like everything is so, uh, you know, like, uh, it's so crucial and it's so urgent and it's so important because we can squeeze out that 5% more efficiency. Yeah, I- I give up on the 5% more. And 95% of the efficiency, you can achieve with 20% of the work.
- 26:41 – 31:06
Will I Lose Productivity Without Stress?
- MGMo Gawdat
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, I'm trying to figure out if there's, you have to concede that you will be less innovative, productive if you wean yourself off your stress addiction. 'Cause this is obviously the battle I- I think I have with myself, if I'm honest. I think, I think I tell myself the story that, you know, working really, really hard, working all hours, and really throwing myself into it, is because I'm gonna get close to my potential, and then someday I don't have to work as much, my life will be free. And, and these are the kind of, you know, narratives I tell myself.
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which, as I say them, I know, I'm like, "That's embarrassing." (laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs) Sorry, I am so sorry I laughed. But- but this is-
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
... this is identical to the story of, you know, there is this very- very interesting fable of the billionaire that goes to the- to the beach somewhere and he finds a fisherman.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
And the fisherman goes fishing and he gets two fish. You know, sells one in the market and then feeds his family the other one. And so the billionaire goes like, "No, no, no. No, no. You're- you're wrong. You're wrong. You're- you're doing this wrong. You should, uh, you know, go get four fish. Uh, or as many as you can, huh? And, you know, and- and basically sell them in the market." And he goes like, "Why?" And he says, "Then you can buy a bigger boat." And, "What do I do with a bigger boat?" You buy even more, you get m- even more fish, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
"And, you know, what ha- what do I do with that?" You sell all of it and you get a fleet. And, you know, "What do you do with the fleet?" You get even more fish. And he says, "Why?" And he goes like, "Then you can retire happily and sit on, you know, uh, live in a place, uh, near the ocean and go out in your boat every morning." And g- the guy goes like, "But I'm going out in my boat every morning already. Like, why are you telling me this story?" The- we've been given a dream. We've been given a dream, okay? And that dream is more is better, faster is better. We've been given a dream that says, "I need to, I need a billion dollars to feel comfortable." Not really. I mean, you're not, you're not a fancy guy. You don't drive a b- a Lamborghini, right? So- so you- you, uh, the truth is, hmm, the truth is we really, really, really can have a much bigger impact. And impact on what, by the way? Hmm? because if the impact is, "I'm going to change the world," hmm? Is that a better and more important impact than, "I'm gonna hug my daughter"? Because think about it, huh. Relatively, I'm gonna spend time with my girlfriend or my wife. I'm going to, you know, relatively, hmm? It's you succeed at what you set your priority to. And is there a balance somewhere? Is there a balance that says, "I'm going to limit my life, hmm, to achieve impact, but the 95%?" Right? Give up the 5% and save yourself 80% of the effort. M- most people, when- when people c- go to work, I s- I'm gonna say this is gonna upset a lot of people. Hmm? But 80% of the stuff you do at work is just to prove you're alive, okay? 20% of what you do at work, hmm, actually achieves the numbers, okay? That's the truth of all work generated, hmm. And- and in your own day, you know, can you actually do it with the objective of, "I'm gonna achieve 100% of my target, 110% of my target, but I'm gonna do that with the minimum amount of effort, fairly to my employer. I'm not cheating anyone, I'm delivering."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is the- is the problem that we don't have a target?
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because I don't have a target. So for me it's, um, because I can-
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I should.
- MGMo Gawdat
I maximize whatever I can do to achieve financial gains or, uh, you know, uh, followers gains or numbers on the podcast and so on. Amazing. Just add a target, hmm, and say, "And I maximize my well-being in the process." Suddenly the equation becomes incredibly different, correct? It- it enables you to do this longer, it enables you to do it more effectively.... one of the, uh, backbone models of Unstressable is something we call the three Ls, limit, learn, and lesson, right? And limit, believe it or not, is the absolute core, mm, of a lot of what we call nuisances. So- so let- let me try to explain this at the very top level. The- the- the- the sources of your- of stress in your life, mm, uh, we call them a TONN of stress, T-O-N-N, right? And, you know, trauma, obsessions,
- 31:06 – 36:07
What is TONN? The Origin Of Stress
- MGMo Gawdat
nuisances, and noise. Trauma happens from outside you. It's a major change in your life, and it hits you so hard, and it breaks you for a short time. But believe it or not, mm, 91% of people will face at least one, but- but often several, PTSD-inducing traumatic event in their life. That's like the lost- loss of a loved one or, you know, losing your job so unexpectedly to- to the point you have to suffer or whatever, okay? Being in a war zone and so on. Believe it or not, 93% of them will recover within three months. Trauma is not what breaks us, right? The- the interesting stuff that breaks us is the long application of obsessions, nuisances, and trauma, and- and- and noise. Obsessions are macro issues, mm, that you tell yourself. Don't exist in the real world at all, okay? Like, "I have a belly, a little belly, so no one will ever love me." You can- you can obsess about this for the rest of your life, right? And- and make it your life story and basically create a lot of stress as a result of that script that you told yourself, okay? Uh, you know, uh, nuisances are the little ones, the little forms of that, you know, things that are triggered every day by you passing in front of the- o- of the mirror as you walk out of the door, and you go like, "Oh, man, you're still fat," or whatever, right? Believe it or not, most of our stress, however, comes because of what we call nuisances. Nuisances are- are stressors that don't break you. They're not trauma, okay? But there are so many of them that you include in your life, so many of them. When Alice wrote, uh, uh, you know, the limit bit of the- of the chapter, she- she wrote a beautiful script about the first five minutes or 10 minutes of your day, and she started to count the stressors that you trigger in your life in those minutes from-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
... the very loud alarm, right, to the- to the, you know, opening your- your social media and seeing something upsetting or, you know, uh, open- opening WhatsApp and getting a message you don't like and so on and so forth, right? And this is five minutes, 10 minutes. Before you even had your coffee, you get 10, 15 stressors. The trick is how beneficial for your life have those been? And if we're aware, if we're able to look at those stressors and say, "Hold on. I'm going to take an inventory of all of the things that stressed me last week," okay? A genuinely honest inventory. "And I'm going to tell myself, 'Oh, by the way, I don't need this, I don't need this, I don't need this, I don't need this,'" right? My commute, mm. If I leave 10 minutes early, would it be easier? If I leave 10 minutes late, would it be easier? If I- if I take music or the Diary of the CEO podcast with me, would it become easier, right? And- and if you actually attentively, deliberately look at all of the nuisances in- in your life, mm, how many of them can you limit? Countless. I promise you. You can limit countless nuisances. You can remove that friend that's annoying you, okay? By simply texting them and saying, "Um, I don't want to be your friend anymore," or- or simply winding down the conversations, or when they te- send you something or, uh, talk to you about something, you go like, "Oh, very interesting," right? Instead of engaging in those things. Can you- can you limit the, you know, the- the- the- the amount of junk food you get- you let into your life? Can you limit the amount of restrictions and control that you apply to yourself in your life? And millions of little things.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A lot of them feel like obligations.
- MGMo Gawdat
Do they really? Yeah. Yeah, do you wanna live out of obligation?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you know what I mean? Friendships feel like obligations.
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We've committed to get- do something, go to an event, take part in a charity, whatever it is, you know, and they feel like obligations now. So we- we feel like we have to see it through, even if it's causing us stress or discomfort.
- MGMo Gawdat
Which is amazing coming from you because you're one of the most shrewd businesspeople I know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm not even talking about myself. I'm- I'm not... Although, actually, I am talking about myself because some of the things I was thinking about do feel like obligations, and I-
- MGMo Gawdat
Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... do wish I could just-
- MGMo Gawdat
And- and- and- and how do you do that in business, Steve? I know you really well. You'd say- you'd- you'd stay- you'd say a straight no without explanation. You wouldn't even apologize.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's the things that I've already managed to tie myself in because, you know, old Steve overestimated future Steve's capacity. (laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs) Old Mo and- and- and- and future Mo.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Old Steve stitches up future Steve 'cause, you know, old Steve is, you know, super ambitious, and he doesn't understand there's only 24 hours a day, and you know...
- MGMo Gawdat
Look, I mean, I'm- I'm not immune to this, all right? It's actually my biggest issue. My biggest challenge is, uh, l- this- beginning of this year, I sat down, mm, and I realized I had 18 full-time jobs.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Sounds familiar.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Right? And I cut them down to nine, right? And I went to everyone I love, and I celebrated, and I said, "Look, I cut them down by 50%." And they looked at me and said, "There's still nine."
- SBSteven Bartlett
You must have had to
- 36:07 – 43:31
Upsetting People With Change & Choosing To Put Ourselves First
- SBSteven Bartlett
upset some people.
- MGMo Gawdat
I- I simply said, "That's it. We're not doing this project."
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're gonna hurt some people's feelings there.
- MGMo Gawdat
The truth is, by the way, I think we're talking at your- your life and my life, but this applies to everyone listening, right? You- you have this person that constantly calls you and says, "Hey, let's go out for coffee," and the coffee's annoying like hell, right? And you're like, "Yeah, but I've known them for 20 years, and they're really lovely." I swear to you, I had one of my really close, wonderful friends, mm, who was really, really struggling with his ego.So, most of the conversations would be around him trying to prove, hmm, that he's good enough. And I had a lovely conversation with him. I said, uh, at the end of one of those coffee meetings, I said, "I think we shouldn't meet again." And he said, "What do you mean? You're traveling." I said, "No, no. Every time I sit next to you, you make me miserable." And he said, "Why?" And I said, "Because you're constantly trying to do A, B, and C. Can you change that, please?" Right? Simple. Hmm? If he managed to change it, I would've stayed. He didn't manage to change it. We met again and I said, "Look, I love you very much and I think we should be friends, but not to the point where we meet every Sunday. Doesn't make any sense for me to volunteer part of my Sunday to suffer." Right? And- and it is actually quite possible to do that lovingly, by saying, "Look, I realize that you are in this stage. It's not my responsibility to take you out of it, by the way. That's not what friends are for. My responsibility as a friend is to be there when you ask me a specific thing that relates to what you're going through that I'm capable of providing. But just sitting there for four hours to listen to something that I'm not able to change doesn't- doesn't make any sense." Right? And some of- of our listeners will be stuck in that relationship, right? That is really abusive or really not, you know, effective or ... And- and what are they doing? "It's an obligation, you know. We've been together for years. It's, you know, it's- it's- he's no- he or she is not that bad and ..." Is that the truth? Hmm? It's, you know, can you, can you make choices that simply say, "I will put my wellbeing, my mental wellbeing first."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is the short-term cost of putting ourselves first? Because that's often the thing that prevents us doing it, is there is a clear short-term cost. I understand the long-term gain potentially, but the short-term thing is the thing that keeps us in prison.
- MGMo Gawdat
So Hanna, my- my wonderful wife, is a therapist. So, therapy is not a topic, you know, psychology is not a topic I- I researched heavily. Uh, so she's teaching me quite a bit. Hmm? And- and one of the biggest eye-openers for me is that she said we love consistency. We hate change, even if change is good for us. Okay? So if we- if we, uh, uh, you know, follow a script that says, uh, "I am ugly." Or, "I am not good enough." Or whatever, changing that script, that script is painful. But changing that script, hmm, is more painful, because your- your survival mechanism says, "I'm familiar with this pain, I know how to deal with this pain. I don't want the uncertainty." Right? So- so, you know, the- the- the way we started this- this podcast and you asked me what- what is the most stressful thing about the modern world is that f- unfamiliarity of the future, w- we're unable to- to know what it looks like. And so we resist. We resist the change. We say, "Look, I am in this place, I know how to do it very well. It's hurting my back, it's keeping me on long flights, it's doing this, it's doing that, but I'm really very familiar with it." Okay? I always make a- a- a- a big joke about this. When I was leaving Google X ... So I, uh, I was, um, you know, obviously, Search for Happy was booming, one, you know, my- my One Billion Happy mission was ten million happy when we started the first print of the book. And- and ten million took eight weeks. Like, you have to tell yourself, "Sorry for my English, fuck Google." Like, you know, "I have to- I have to focus on this." Right? But when I was leaving Google and Google was so kind to me, and I was very fortunate and I made a reasonable amount of money, m- m- don't have most of it now anymore, but at the time, I started to tell myself, "But what about the future of A and my daughter?" Okay? "But what about my ex and her- her needs? What about this, what about that? Do I have the financial resources to do this?" Typical engineer, I started a spreadsheet. Okay? Put every possible expense, put every possible, uh, you know, uh, um, source of revenue and so on, and it appeared to be okay. Right? And so my brain volunteers to tell me, "Oh, but hold on, Mo. What if there is a nuclear war because the, uh, you know, the Iran- Iranians don't agree with the Americans and that the nuclear dust comes to Dubai so your real estate portfolio in Dubai gets wiped out and what will happen then?" And yeah. If you want to continue to- to hold onto your, you know, safety mechanisms, you're gonna end up in a place where there is always something that pa- that could go wrong. And the answer was, if that happens, I think I'll be a lot mo- a lot more concerned about other things than how much revenue I'm making at the time. Right? And the truth is, for every single one of us, we- we- we are afraid of the change, so we stick to the famili- familiar. Okay? And the familiar could be killing us. And it's quite interesting that we know it could be killing us. Whatever scale you are in in the world. Right? You- you know, you're- you're studying something you're not- you're not enjoying, but it's familiar. "I went on that path, it's been three years already." Da-da-da-da. Right? And I'm not saying jump and say, "Uh, that's it," and start over. That consistency matters. Hmm? But tell yourself, hmm, "I have one more year to finish. I'll finish this year with- with the minimum effort to achieve the result, and I'll start to look at other parts of my life by reinvesting my hours." Right? I, you know, you're stuck in that relationship, but, "Dating is horrible, I don't wanna leave that person." Or, um ... Yeah. But you know if it's not working that sooner or later you're gonna leave the person. Right? And I think my story and your stories are great examples of what happens when you leave that person. Hmm? I mean, not yours, but my- mine. Like, when- when you're available, hmm, so that when the right person shows up, you're there. If you're, you know, your true obligation to yourself is to put yourself in those situations of uncertainty that you chose, calculated risks, rather than let the world push you, you know, like Alice c- constantly speaks about. The world will always push you to either heal or change direction.... okay? Quite interestingly, the, the way we write both of us is very, very interesting because Alice is, you know, so soft and feminine and spiritual in her writing, and I'm a freaking engineer, like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
... everything to me is an equation and a bullet point and so on. So, uh, I always say the world will push you to change direction or to learn-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
... brainiac. She, uh, she says the, the world will push you to change direction or to heal. Uh, they're more or less the same, but learning is, like, sort of the brainiac process of it and, and healing is the... So, so why not? Why not get yourself in the place where the world wants you to be so that you heal or change direction? Why, why not make that decision yourself?
- 43:31 – 50:43
What Is Loss Aversion?
- SBSteven Bartlett
So many of us contend with loss aversion, don't we? And this is-
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was... You know, Daniel Kahneman, he passed away, I think, three or four days ago, and he's-
- MGMo Gawdat
Did he?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. He's a real, sort of-
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh, he was an amazing writer-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... he's a pioneer.
- MGMo Gawdat
... an amazing thinker.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He was incredible, really, really incredible individual that's inspired so many people, including myself, in so many ways. Um, but I, I remember that paper he produced, I think, in the 1980s about loss aversion-
- MGMo Gawdat
I know. The-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... which-
- MGMo Gawdat
... the, the paintings.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
You remember that? Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah. And in that, in, in that work where he discovers this term loss aversion, he talks about how, um, humans need the gain to be two to three times bigger than the thing they lose.
- MGMo Gawdat
Than the possible loss, yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. So that if the, the pain we experience from losing 10 pounds on the floor or $10 on the floor isn't equal to the pleasure we experience from finding 10-
- MGMo Gawdat
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... we have to find 20 or 30-
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to equal the pain of losing 10. And that speaks, I think, in some part to why people stay in the situation they're in because, for me to go after a better relationship, it better appear to be two to three times better than the one I'm gonna lose, or-
- MGMo Gawdat
Interesting.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the job, it m- you know, has to appear to be two to three times better than the one I'm sacrificing, and that almost keeps us pinned down. I actually did a bit, bit of research a couple of years ago as to why we have loss aversion, like, what's the evolutionary basis? And the best answer I could find was that we come from a, a background of trading with, like, other apes and stuff.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And there was... There's often a risk that the person might not trade back or the, you know... So we factor that into the trade.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We factor in the pro- the probability that we won't, it won't be an equal trade.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And life's not an equal trade. We pursue things, and we don't get them. And I think that's part of what's holding us in situations that aren't serving us and in the stress you describe.
- MGMo Gawdat
It's, uh, it's, uh, uh, i- i- it's surprising, though, if you look back at your life, hmm, and you really take a, a factual view of the, of the history of your life. Most of the time when you lost something, you opened up a space that allowed something else to walk in, right?
- 50:43 – 1:01:38
The Noise Of Stress
- MGMo Gawdat
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is this what you refer to in that stress quadrant from Unstressable as noise?
- MGMo Gawdat
Noise? No. Noise is what happens f- from within your head.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- MGMo Gawdat
So, it's little stressors, hmm, that you don't, uh, that- that don't happen in the real world. Okay? It's re- re- little stressors that, you know, when I'm, when I'm, uh, uh, um, lo- looking at myself in the mirror or when I'm driving and thinking about, "Oh, you messed up on that thing." Right? It's, it's generated... So, the to- the ton of stress is very straightforward. It is, uh, external and internal, macro and micro. So, if you look at stress coming from within you or from out- outside you, right? Internal and external. And if you look at it coming from a small reason of stress or a big reason of stress. The, the g- great example is trauma, is macro external. Macro, meaning it's a very, very high stressful impact, uh, you know, very significant, comes from outside you. We don't cause ourselves trauma. Something else causes us trauma, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
Uh, trauma, capital T here. Huh? And, uh, and- and yeah. So, it's... Noise is micro. It's like that constant nagging in your head, like, y- you know, y- y- you need to, uh... Your hair is starting to show white.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
Like, this constant nagging. It's like you're getting old. Okay? Uh, it's, it's small. It doesn't kill you. But if you say it every day, it starts to become, uh, quite significant. And I... Which actually is really, uh, I think the most interesting part of, of stress, is to understand that stress is very good for you, right? Until it kills you. And I think what most people don't understand is that there are only three ways where stress will break you. One is trauma, outside you, but we said you'll recover very quickly. The other is burnout and the third is anticipation of stress. Okay? And these two are completely within your control. So, trauma is outside your control, but 93% will recover in three months, 96% will recover in six months, and most of us will actually get post-traumatic growth. So, post-trauma, you'll be fine. Okay? The majority of how stress kills us, hmm, is burnout, which is a large, a very large number of small stressors. So, the burnout equation, as I wrote it in the book, is the number of stressors multiplied by the intensity of each, multiplied by the time of application of each, multiplied by the frequency of application. So, take a commute, for example. Hmm? If, if you... Commute is one stressor, hmm, uh, multiplied by... If it's a two hours commute and it's very annoying and you're surrounded by people, it's very intense, okay? And if you have to do it twice a day, it's very different than if you do it four times a day. Okay? And if you have to do it every day, hmm, it's very different than if you have to do it once a week. So, you add all of those up, the sigma of all of those. When that reaches the breaking point of what you can carry as a human, you'll break. Right? And, and, and normally, you'll break because of a tiny thing. Like, your best friend goes like, "Hey, chubby." And you go like, "What? I can't take this anymore." And you can- cannot take out... Go, go out of, uh, of bed anymore. You know, previously, you would go like, "Yeah, skinny, whatever." You, you would just laugh about it. Hmm? And, and I think the trick is, hmm, uh, is to, to sa- save yourself from burnout. It's not that one, one last stressor, right? It's, it is all of the other 400 stressors that piled up, so that when that last one is applied, you break. Right? And, and it's... It is quite interesting because we no- we normally never break because of stress. It's not the event that breaks us. Okay? So, so, uh, one of the, uh, of the interesting topics in Unstressable is, is of course, Alice, in her very spiritual, soft, uh, you know, um, um, practice approach, uh, you know, wrote her, her parts of the book. And I was like, "Alice, I, I just still don't get it." And, and she, she said, "What do, don't you get?" And, and in my approach, I said, "In physics, right, stress is very defined. Stress is very clear in physics, right? You're... An object is stressed when you, uh, uh, when you stress an object, you apply a force to a square area."... to the cross-section of the object, right? The object's ... The stress is not just the f- the, uh, the result of the force. It's not the external stressor, hmm, the external challenge or threat that we face that stresses us. It's your square area that also plays in that equation. So basically, our stress as humans, if you apply the same concept of physics, is the intensity of the challenges that you face, divided by the skills and resources and the abilities that you have to deal with that stress, right? So the stress equation is your, uh, you know, the, the challenge divided by the resources. Okay? And that's why someone, you know, like you, hmm, may be able to carry things that would make someone freak out. It's, it's the reason why someone like me would, you know, laugh about things that made me freak out in my 20s, right? Because you ... Not because the event is different, it's because you increased your resources.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So how does someone increase their resources? 'Cause I think everybody listening to this now, either they're that person or they know someone who, um, flaps.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When things get a little bit tricky, they flap.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. So, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
A- and when I'm saying flap, if you don't know what I'm saying, I mean, like, they panic or they-
- MGMo Gawdat
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... they worry or they have, like, a bit of a meltdown.
- MGMo Gawdat
But panic and worry is a different topic. We should absolutely cover that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- MGMo Gawdat
Right? And so, so panic and worry is, is breaking down under the anticipation of threats.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay? But, but, but it ... When, when it comes to dealing with stress, right? It, you know ... I, I don't know how to say it, but someone in, at, at work, when I used to be in the corporate world, would walk in and say, "Oh, the CEO has changed. You know, we've been working on this deal for the last nine months, and the CEO has changed. Everything has collapsed." And I'm like, "No, it hasn't." You know, I've done 200 deals in my life where the CEO has changed, and you have to rebuild your network, and you have to do this and that, and so on. I mean, I think the most valuable example I remember in my life is through the two h- 2008 crisis. So when, when I joined Google, uh, my boss, which I really adore, at the time, he was so direct and very shrewd. And so the introduction, when I joined the management meeting the first day, is he says, "Hey, everyone. This is Mo. He's bringing the average age of the company up."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- MGMo Gawdat
And I was like, "One more sentence, please?" Like, "Please say something else." He didn't. That was it. The introduction is, "He's bringing the average age of the company up." But when the economic crisis of 2008 happened, Google completely panics. And the older group goes like, "It's not the first time. We've seen economic crises before. It's cyclical, this is what happens. Maybe we should behave this way." Right? It's the same event, but you have more resources because you've seen it over and over, right? So it's your accountability as a person to tell yourself, "That I need to learn the techniques, okay? That I need to understand to be able to manage stress." And, and the way we, we wrote them in s- in Unstressable is we said, "You get stressed in four modalities. You get stressed mentally, you get stressed emotionally, physically, or spiritually." Okay? And each of those is a different, I don't know how to say, a different language course. So your mental stress speaks to you and responds to you in a language that is different than your emotional stress, is different than your physical stress, that's different than your spiritual stress. Okay? But if you learn that language, hmm, then you can easily deal with that stress when it happens. Okay? And it's simple techniques, like, you know, we probably should cover as many of them as we can, but take the simplest thing. Mental stress is the kind of stress that wakes you up at 4:00 AM at night because a thought is running through your head, you can't stop it, right? Simple techniques are, hmm, write the thought down, okay? Promise yourself that you're gonna w- think about it in the morning before you go to bed. And most of the time, if you simply let the thought reside on paper, it won't reside in your head, okay? And keep the promise, so when you wake up the next morning, actually think about that thought that you, that, that you made the promise to your brain that you will. Simple technique. And there are hundreds of those. Like, we, you know, we have m- m- uh, in, in the mental stress space, for example, we have something we call the GYM, G-Y-M-M-M-M-M. So it's eight, eight different practices, right? And, and the, and the trick here is, uh, learn that technique, apply that technique, and you will be able to deal with stress a little bit better. Okay? And, uh, you know, creating a support network, uh, uh, your ability to, uh, question your thoughts, you know? I have a technique that we c- I call Meet Becky, the idea that you allow your brain to express things and share them rather than block them, and so on and so forth, right? And, and, and that skill in mental stress is very, very different than emotional stress, okay? Because your brain speaks to you all the time. It rarely ever, if, if, if at all ever, tells you the truth. That's the language that your brain speaks. It only tells you what it thinks is the truth, okay? Your emotions speak to you all the time, and it's always the truth, right? So if, if you're afraid, you're afraid. There is no, there's no lying about that, okay? But the problem is that emotions are so subtle, they're so blended, they're brushstrokes of multiple emotions overlaid on each other, and we're told not to acknowledge them at all. So w- we don't even respond to the language, right? Your body speaks in, in, in, in aches and, and pains, okay? Uh, uh, why, why that smile-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yes.
- MGMo Gawdat
... before you go to Aus- Australia, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah (laughs) .
- MGMo Gawdat
But, but, but, yeah, w- but we ignore it completely. We go like, "This is normal. This is n- it's normal to have aches and pains. You know, I'm traveling for 16 hours, must have aches and pains," right? No, you, you must not. You, you, you ma- you have aches and pains because you're stressing your body, okay? But if your body is your priority, you're not gonna have the aches and pains, right? Y- your spirit would cry through its intuition. I mean, spirit here is not a religious thing, right? But your nonphysical part, call it your consciousness and, uh, the part that doesn't relate to your physical form...... okay? It sends you signals all the time related to your purpose and what you're supposed to be doing through your intuition. Mm. How many of us listen to our intuition when we're running through life? And, and so when... Th- these are skills. This is the entire body of the book, the skills, mm, of, how do you build your, your resources in terms of spotting by listening to the language that the modality speaks to you, spotting that you're being stressed, and then how do you actually speak back to it and deal with it with the resources that you need
- 1:01:38 – 1:04:49
How Do We Spot Our Own Stress?
- MGMo Gawdat
so that you- you- you're not that stressed anymore.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do we, how do we know, how do we spot our own stress? Because it's, it's hard, isn't it, when we've told ourselves a different story about the feeling, or-
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that sensation. We tell ourselves different stories about it. We say, you know, "This, this is... This ache or pain is good because it means growth," or, "This burnout or this anxiety is good because it means, you know, productivity." But how do we truly know that we are... we've pushed ourselves too far?
- MGMo Gawdat
I, I think the, the easiest one to recognize, believe it or not, is physical stress, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
Physical stress is undeniable. It's, it is... When you, when you, when you, when you have a thr- a sore throat, you know something's wrong.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
And you tell yourself something's wrong, okay? When you have back pain, you know something's wrong-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
... but you don't tell yourself something's wrong, okay? And the symbo- the, the, the, the symptoms of physical stress are very straightforward. You know, digestive issues, headaches, uh, you're unable to sleep very well, you're unable to rest when you sleep, and so on and so... It's very simple. Your body, theoretically, is a machine that should work seamlessly, okay? Unless there is a, a disease or an illness or whatever, it should work seamlessly. It should simply be like a, a luxury car. You run it and it runs, right? If it starts to shake and, you know, and it, it's not performing well, you have to stop and say, "What is going on?" And every, every stress will give you a, a, a slightly different physical signature, right? Anxiety is felt in your stomach, right? You know, uh, uh, fear is all over your body. You just want to run. You feel that... Like, you can feel it. Mm. Uh, uh, the, the, the trick is, how do you get embodied? How do you allow yourself, hmm, to sit with your body and say... So, you know, Alice writes about w- what... A very normal practice is a body scan, and so few of us know or do it. You, you know, on a long flight, you should sit with your body and go like, "Okay, close your eyes, you know, take a deep breath, and scan your body from your top of your head all the way to your toes and see where it hurts," right? And, and ask yourself how much more effective in your mission would you be if it doesn't hurt.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think this is the, the part that a lot of workaholics... You know, you described it as an addiction earlier. Now, if you sat down with someone who had another form of addiction and told them this, like, logically-
- MGMo Gawdat
They'd refuse it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. They'd say, "Yeah, I know this-"
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... injecting this thing in me is bad." But addictions are complicated emotional states, aren't they? They're like deep psychological, emotional states. And obviously, there's a chem- chemical element to it, but, but often we find, um, that there's a trauma or there's an underlying issue with self-esteem or whatever it might be that's causing it. So, although there's many people listening to this now, including myself, that go, "Okay, I know what you're saying is true, but I... part of me thinks I'm a little bit dragged and not very driven, so I never had good (laughs) much of good try." (laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
You? (laughs)
- 1:04:49 – 1:12:18
Are We Really Too Busy?
- MGMo Gawdat
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) But, but that's kind of what I, I imagine a lot of people's, like, rebuttal is to that, is like, "Yeah, I know this." Like, someone said to me before that, you know... You know, I'm embodying the listener now. "People have told me that I need to stop." And I'm thinking of some of my best friends. Some of my best friends are literally like, they're killing themselves because of their work. And like, objectively, if you ask them, they'd say, "I'm killing myself because of this work."
- MGMo Gawdat
What's your favorite band?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think is Kanye. And I have to separate the art from the individual-
- MGMo Gawdat
Great. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... for many reasons. But it's the, it's the art, it's the pushing boundaries, making things that are unapologetically unique, you know?
- MGMo Gawdat
Th- th- this already makes this episode quite a very useful one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
Uh, but, uh, but, uh, the- the- the- theoretically, if Kanye is performing in London tonight-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
... would you go?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. You'd find the time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. It's a lie. We tell ourselves we're too busy. It's a lie. We're not, okay? Anyone who's too busy, hmm, has not watched Game of Thrones. Because if you allowed yourself to watch Game of Thrones, that's like 600 hours of your life, okay? You're not too busy, right? Anyone who's too busy... This is the interesting bit. The interesting bit is if you are too busy, okay, when you get home, you're unable to do anything, right? And you waste three hours binge-watching something or completely brain dead, right? The truth is that those three hours are wasted three hours. You could actually waste them thr- during the day, they're wasted anyway, and use them differently when you get home. The, the truth is not we're, we're not too busy. And the problem is this. And I, I, I, I rarely ever use threats as a motivation, hmm, but the problem is, you're going to put in the time. You're going to put in the time by working on your stress beforehand or lying in bed when you're burnt out. That's the truth. The truth is your... you, you know, the body keeps the score. You know the book, right? Eventually, your body is, is gonna go say, "I'm... Can't do this anymore," right? Your mind is going to say, "I just, I, I just can't deal with this." And even, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm theoretically trained in this my whole life. Hmm. I've managed very, very complex, very stressful jobs. I, I run so many things at the same time.... and I will tell you openly, I burn out at the end of every book launch. I'm hoping this year I'm not. Okay? But, but that's the truth. The truth is, I will eventually, after running really hard for three weeks, I will eventually spend a week and a half unable to do anything. On average that means I worked a week and a half.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So why do you keep doing it to yourself?
- MGMo Gawdat
I, I wo- because of what you're, because of what you and I struggle with. We assign to ourselves things beforehand, right? This year I'm saying I may not get there. Why? Because when I'm publishing, uh, so we're, we're filming this long before Unstressable, right? And at the same time, when the publication date happens, I'm doing nothing during those two weeks or three, two and a half weeks, nothing but Unstressable. Very unlike the typical me, right? The typical me thinks of himself as Superman. I'm super old man now, right? And it's quite interesting because at, at the end of the day, if I can, if I plug so many things in my life, eventually, eventually, believe it or not, you balance it out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about the people who really don't have a choice? Is there anybody that doesn't have a choice? You know, I'm thinking about the people that work on the factory line, and they're, they're providing, they're working two jobs providing for a family that are, you know, struggling. What about those people?
- MGMo Gawdat
First of all, I think these are the most honorable, commended people that we can ever talk about, but I will, before I talk about them, I'll ask you to think about how blessed you are. Okay? And everyone who's not in that position-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
... uh, anyone who's not in a war zone, hmm, anyone who was not, uh, born to a, uh, very, very difficult circumstances, right? If you're not one of those, then ask yourself, "Why are you pushing yourself so hard?" Right? Now if you're one of those people, remember, hmm, it's limit, learn, and listen. Okay? If your external circumstances don't, you're not able to change them, you can ex- you can, you can change your ability to deal with the stress.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mo, I have to ask you a question.
- MGMo Gawdat
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know me. You, you've come to know me. We've known each other for years now.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, you've observed my life. You kind of understand all the pieces in my life. You understand what I do here. You've also seen behind the scenes, you know how obsessive I am about the things that I'm involved in. Um, what is the bullshit that I'm telling myself?
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Of all the people that could, like, do you know, do you know, do you know what I'm saying? Like, I've, I've actually pondered this for some time 'cause I do have moments where I go, "Stephen, you don't have to work anymore. You don't have to, you're not gonna, like, nothing I'm gonna accomplish in my life is gonna make me any more anything, really." To myself. It's not gonna ch- it's not gonna make me happier, that's for sure. It's not gonna mean that I can live better in any way. So why am I like, why am I doing this? What is the bullshit I'm telling myself?
- MGMo Gawdat
You don't have a ceiling. Your structure doesn't have a ceiling. So I told you before we, before we, uh, we started, uh, th- this conversation, so you and I, uh, make a reasonable amount of revenue from speaking engagements, for example. So my, my policy was very straightforward. When I started, uh, uh, my mission, One Billion Happy, I openly said, "I'm gonna go to any place that has more than 50 people, and I'm gonna speak for free." Right? And then I met my wonderful business manager, Munir, and Munir said, "That's not right." I said, "What do you mean?" And he said, "If it's a profit-making organization, okay, uh, that's going to hire you, or if it's a paying event, so they're gonna use you and then sell tickets, you should charge them, okay?" That's the cycle, the complete cycle of life. Otherwise, go and speak for free, right? And that tiny change created revenue, right? The question is how much revenue is enough because I was willing to do it for free. Remember that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 1:12:18 – 1:18:20
Setting Limits & Prioritising The Important Stuff
- MGMo Gawdat
right? Where's your boundaries?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Let me play devil's advocate then. So you made a limit, you know, you said, "I'll do," what was it, 20?
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah, 20, 20 trips a year.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You'll do 20 trips a year. Okay. So devil's advocate would be, well, Mo, if you did 40 or if you did 30, you'd make X amount more money.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that money can be put towards your mission of making a million people Unstressable. If you just did a little bit more, you'd be closer to achieving your mission.
- MGMo Gawdat
The truth is, hmm, if I made only 20 and I created a program online, I'd create more revenue o- from that, and I can put that, uh, uh, you know, revenue to Unstressable, but it would reach pe- more people at the same time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you think part of this, I was just thinking as you, sorry to interrupt, but I was thinking, I think part of it with me is I'm really good at measuring, and it's really easy if we use the case of speaking appointments, it's really easy to measure the gain, and it's very difficult to measure the loss or the cost.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. You're, you're st- you're constantly driven by opportunity cost.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
If, if you sell your health and well-being for revenue, it's always a r- opportunity cost. It's always opportunity cost, it's always, "But they're paying me X. How can I leave that on the table?" Okay? You leave that on the table because you don't need X, right? And two, because X, the true cost of X is not three hours, or an hour that you speak. The true cost of X is your well-being, your health. What you're selling, hmm, is your time, is your joy, is your health. That's what you're selling. You're not selling your intellectual property.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And your relationships, yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
And your relationships. Okay? I- I- I told you, I fell in love, hmm? And suddenly, everything became very different. Because in all honesty, hmm, yeah, I'd lose a speaking engagement to spend an- a- a- a- an extra day with my wife. We have the most incredible conversations, right? She enlightens me on so many different ways, hmm? And I can promise you, you know, Finders Keepers, my, my book about love, when I sit with Anna, hmm, and she, and she l- teaches me about psychology, hmm, and the impact of psychology on dating, that wasn't part of my- my- my approach at all, okay? So believe it or not, that day is eventually going to create a book, or a- or a training or whatever, that's going to change more people's life, hmm, than anything I could do with money. Remember, by the way, the other side of this is that our biggest resource, you know, when- wh- when- when we were at Google, hmm, I had this conversation at the point in time with people, and I said, "Why does Google.org contribute money? Why don't we contribute code?" We're so much better at producing code, hmm, uh, than any other organization that- that can contribute c- money. Can- can we write disaster recovery, uh- uh- uh, software? Can we write this, can we- c- can we code that? That be our- b- becomes our contribution, right? What is your contribution? Uh, m- I would say, I- I love you, you're- you're so dear to me. I th- I'd say you're not observing the season. Your first contribution in your 20s was you, hmm, with your energy, with your drive, hmm. I mean, look at your books. More and more and more maturity, more and more deliverables, very cleverly thought, uh, through. Look at what you do here. If you don't mind me saying, Steve, this is your biggest contribution, right? The- the- the- the this, hmm, could happen in a week a quarter. No, you- you do two a week?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. Mad, absolutely mad. Absolutely mad. I'm- I love you, but two a week, you're stressing yourself and you're stressing the listeners.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
The only reason why you- you do two a week is because it gives you more views. Where's the rush? And it's your life that's being traded for listeners.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you're saying ...
- MGMo Gawdat
You, I'm- I'm- I'm sorry, I'm- I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
I know you really well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
I know how you love your girlfriend. How much time did you spend with her in the last quarter?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Not enough.
- MGMo Gawdat
And- and- and how much of it was completely, attentively restful?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh my God, hmm, e- even less.
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Significantly, yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
I- I- I flew over here with my daughter. So my daughter was in Dubai. She, uh- she came to London with me. Best nine hours ever. Ever, okay? What would I have been doing with that time on the flight? Writing, thinking, responding to emails. Oh, what a waste of life. What a waste of life. You see, the trick is, hmm, we said that the stress equation is the external str- challenges divided by the resources you have to deal with them. How many of the external ch- challenges do we create? How- how many of those do we invite in our life? How many of those are the result of us not setting boundaries? And the question is, is to- to achieve what? To achieve what, right? I- I had a very dear friend of mine, hmm, that, uh- uh, was in a relationship that was horrible, okay? And I said, "Why are you there?" And she said, "Well, we share the same apartment. Can't leave him because, you know, I can't afford rent on my own." And I said, "Roommate. Like where- where is, how is that challenging, okay? How is that challenging?" Why would you allow yourself to go through this when there are alternatives?
- 1:18:20 – 1:22:22
How Our Childhood Impact In Our Bias To Workaholism
- MGMo Gawdat
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was- I was wondering if people's childhood plays a big role in their bias towards-
- MGMo Gawdat
Oh, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you know, this workaholism, this sort of self-inflicted, um, stress disease that many of us put ourselves through. Because, you know, like first and second generation immigrants who, where their mother or their father was fighting for survival, they almost like inherit that belief that life and work is about survival, um, even though it's not objectively true anymore. It's not objectively true for me, but I still s- feel like I've got my mother's survival thing in me. And coupled with that, I've got a lot of like shame from being different when I was younger and trying to fit in, and being the only Black kid, and chemically relaxing my hair and listening to The Kooks and the, the Arctic Monkeys to pretend I was a white, you know-
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... rich person. Those are-
- MGMo Gawdat
Yeah. (laughs) I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the only two bands I know because those are the ones-
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Those are the ones I used to pretend to listen to. And I just wonder for those people, it feels like, you know, when I said how am I bullshitting myself earlier to you, I was expecting you to say something about you think, i.e. you would say to me, "I think that..."... I've conn- I've connected my work to my self-esteem and my self-worth in some deep way, and I'm still trying to fight for my, like, sense of self-worth. I'm still trying to convince myself that I'm enough with my work. And people, you know... This is w- this is, in some respects, why we all just, like, take the promotion. We take the opportunity. I think about this, who's-
- MGMo Gawdat
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... like, how many people decline a promotion because they consider the implications of what it'll have on their family or their, you know?
- MGMo Gawdat
One of my favorite chapters in Happy Sexy Millionaire was how you quit your CEO job.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
And, and you, when you really look at that, hmm, you basically were saying, "It's killing me."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MGMo Gawdat
There was no joy in it anymore.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
And it's quite interesting, the, the chall- the, the challenge for most of us humans is that we're very capable on achieving what we set our mind to. The question is always, what do we set our mind to? Okay? If, if you ask me, you're in a, in a treadmill.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
You're like, you know, that hamster wheel.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MGMo Gawdat
Okay? And there is no ceiling. So the hamster wheel is basically saying, "I'm here. I'm gonna run, run like mad. I'm really, I'm a very good hamster." Okay? And, and as long as you're in, in that wheel, you're gonna run, run like mad. And you're very capable. You'll keep running. Hmm? To achieve what? That's the whole question. Hmm? When do we put our wellbeing in the equation?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Later. (laughs)
- MGMo Gawdat
(laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
As well-
- MGMo Gawdat
So I'll, I'll tell you very openly, one of the most interesting thoughts I have in my life, uh, who did I interview recently? Don't remember, but b- remember when we spoke about heartbeats?
Episode duration: 2:53:45
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