Moonpig Founder: How I Built A $150 Million Business WITHOUT Sacrifice: Nick Jenkins | E97

1. 0:00 – 2:29

   Intro

   1. NJNick Jenkins0:00

      So, you do something with greeting cards? Is that something you do from your spare room?

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:03

      Nick Jenkins, former CEO and founder of Moonpig, a company now worth $1.6 billion.

   3. NJNick Jenkins0:11

      My first proper business was Moonpig, which, although, um, it- it's been a success, of course, it went through various ups and downs. Like all overnight successes, it took 11 years. I- I got to confess, I probably slightly stumbled on it. I mean, I look at it now and think, "Wow, I- I- that accidentally was a really good business model." (laughs) Unfortunately, we, too often we measure the things that are easiest to measure, and the easiest thing to measure is how wealthy someone is. I'm reluctant to create this illusion that- that, you know, if you work incredibly hard, you can make a lot of money and that will make you successful. You have to be a successful human being. The most exciting times I ever had in my business were when my back was absolutely against the wall and think, "This is going down."

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:47

      (laughs)

   5. NJNick Jenkins0:47

      Bizarrely, I found that quite invigorating. I mean, at one point, my- my shareholders all said, "Look, Nick, this is never gonna work. It's never gonna make money." By the time I'd got to the end of it, I was pretty much down to zero.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:59

      (intro music) Nick Jenkins, former CEO and founder of Moonpig, a company now worth $1.6 billion. Nick's achievements are miraculous. He's incredibly inspiring, and he created a business that's touched many of our lives. But the thing that I found even more intriguing about Nick was he bucks most of the typical entrepreneurship and success narratives. I think we're all sold the belief and the story that in order to be successful in business or any discipline in life, you have to undergo tremendous sacrifice. You have to work yourself into the ground. Nick and his story and his philosophy disprove all of that. He's got another way of doing it. If listening to this episode does anything outside of just inspiring the hell out of you and giving you very practical business information, it will definitely prove, in my view, that there is no such thing as a born entrepreneur. And also, once you become an entrepreneur, the path to success isn't the same for everybody. A lot of what you've been told is a lie. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Nick, super intrigued when I meet entrepreneurs, um, because there's

2. 2:29 – 9:50

   Being an entrepreneur

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:29

      a huge sort of narrative and I guess a debate that's happened in the entrepreneurial community about whether entrepreneurs are made, whether they're born, or whether it's something that can be taught. And, um, from listening to you describe your early years and your school years and your upbringing, um, I wondered what your opinion on that was, and also whether you think you were a born entrepreneur.

   2. NJNick Jenkins2:51

      I- I think there are some traits that are common to all entrepreneurs. Well, one of those is decisiveness. You've got to be able to take decisions. (clears throat) And I- when I- when I- I- after I- I worked in Russia for a bit, went and did an MBA. When I was there, there were lots of people on that course who were brighter than- than me, um, but, and they would come up with a beautiful PowerPoint presentation of five different choices of strategic options. But actually, sometimes you've just got to say, "Haven't got the perfect knowledge. Let's go with that one and take a decision." And so I- I think decisiveness is a very... A- a- and willing an attitude to risk is- is the other thing. And I think I always took the view that, you know, I started with nothing, I could end up with nothing.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:24

      Mm.

   4. NJNick Jenkins3:24

      Uh, and it- it- it- I wasn't that worried about- about failing. Um...

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:29

      Mm.

   6. NJNick Jenkins3:29

      And- and that's quite important. (clears throat) So- so I think those sort of things are i- are innate. You can teach someone like that to be a better entrepreneur, and to some extent, I mean, I- I went off and so I d- did business scho- I had nothing else to do, to be honest, at the time. I came back from Russia and I had a spare year and I thought, "I couldn't think of good cunning business plans," so I thought, "I'll do an MBA while I'm coming up with a cunning plan."

   7. SBSteven Bartlett3:49

      Mm.

   8. NJNick Jenkins3:50

      And that- that was- that probably made my first business a bit better because I- I- it gave me more of an idea of the, a rounded idea of- of- of business and, um, and- and- and so on. So- so I think you can improve on that. But I don't think... But if you're, if you're risk-averse, you're not gonna do it.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:06

      Where does- where does- where does- does decisiveness and, um, that risk appetite come from, do you think, in people? And what, I guess, where does the alternative come from? Where does the fear, um, and the lack of willingness to- to make a decision come from in people? Or in you, like, where did it, where did that decisiveness come from in you?

   10. NJNick Jenkins4:24

       I don't know. I mean, you have some people who are physically courageous, they will-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett4:27

       Yeah.

   12. NJNick Jenkins4:27

       ... leap in, you know, rugby players will leap in and do things, um, and- and- and other people who are- who are- who are not. And then you have some people who are intellectually courageous, who will just, (clears throat) they're just not fond of saying-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett4:37

       Mm.

   14. NJNick Jenkins4:37

       ... "Let's do it." Um, um, no, I'm- I'm not, I'm- I'm- I'm not sure. But I think it- I think it comes from not having a fear of, uh, a fear of failure. Or- or not even, you know, we- we're all going to make mistakes and things will go wrong. But- but, uh, if you're frightened of ever making a mistake-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett4:52

       Mm.

   16. NJNick Jenkins4:53

       ... um, then- then- then you won't do it much. Now it's like if you- if you- if you ski and you're frightened of falling over, you're never gonna be a great skier.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett4:58

       Mm.

   18. NJNick Jenkins4:58

       Because you are gonna fall over.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett5:00

       You, it's got also, you were just talking about th- almost that mental assessment you made on what failure meant. 'Cause you were like, "Well, if I go to zero, that's okay."

   20. NJNick Jenkins5:07

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett5:07

       "That doesn't mean death."

   22. NJNick Jenkins5:09

       No, no, no, no, it doesn't. (laughs)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett5:10

       You know?

   24. NJNick Jenkins5:10

       I mean, it wouldn't be great, you know-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett5:12

       Yeah.

   26. NJNick Jenkins5:12

       ... but- but- but it's survival. And I, and I've, of all the friends I've seen who've gone through that, and I've had a lot of friends who've gone through, uh, who've gone through business failures. The ones I admire the most are the ones who, th- it's the way they've dealt with that. And some of them have thought, "Well, I can't change that. I can't... So all I can do is change the way I approach the next step-"

   27. SBSteven Bartlett5:29

       Mm.

   28. NJNick Jenkins5:29

       "... and- and move on." And if you just dwell on failure, "What does that mean? How does that reflect on me?" Um, then, uh, then you- you'd never, yeah, you- you'd never-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett5:38

       Mm.

   30. NJNick Jenkins5:38

       ... move on. So, so I- I think it's our own in- our own attitude to failure that's- that's quite important.
3. 9:50 – 27:04

   Starting a business - Moon Pig

   1. SBSteven Bartlett9:50

      it really, really it shows me that the entrepreneur is somewhat naive when an entrepreneur comes up to you, and I'm sure you get this all the time, they pitch you an idea and then they say, well, they sound cagey to tell you the full thing-

   2. NJNick Jenkins10:00

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett10:00

      ... because they think you're gonna run off and do it.

   4. NJNick Jenkins10:02

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett10:03

      (laughs) Yeah.

   6. NJNick Jenkins10:04

      Um, I, well, I always say to them, "Look, if you go, the, the day you go live with that, the moment you start advertising that idea-"

   7. SBSteven Bartlett10:10

      Mm-hmm.

   8. NJNick Jenkins10:11

      "... you're, you're opening, you're lifting your skirts to the whole world."

   9. SBSteven Bartlett10:13

      Yeah.

   10. NJNick Jenkins10:14

       So, uh, "So you're gonna have to go live with this at some point. Otherwise, you're not gonna sell anything."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett10:18

       Yeah.

   12. NJNick Jenkins10:18

       "If you don't sell anything, you're not gonna raise any money from anybody."

   13. SBSteven Bartlett10:20

       Yeah.

   14. NJNick Jenkins10:20

       "So at some point, you have to, uh, you, you have to tell people what you're doing." With M- Moonpig, there was no way that I could, I could protect that idea. The only way you can protect it is be the best and, and, and, and be the biggest.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett10:32

       Amen.

   16. NJNick Jenkins10:32

       Yeah. I mean, and then I, we had probably 20 competitors that followed after Moonpig, you know, during, during our time there, and they would, they'd pop up and they'd flare up and then they'd, they'd die off again. Um, and, and even now, Moonpig is 65% of the market. Uh...

   17. SBSteven Bartlett10:46

       Bef- when you started Moonpig, was there anyone else doing personalized, um, sort of gifting cards online?

   18. NJNick Jenkins10:51

       Yeah, funny enough, th- there was. There was a very... I came up with a business plan and I developed it, and then I, I looked... Oh, the first thing I always do is I look around, not just at what direct competitors I've got, but how are people trying to solve that problem in other ways. Because, you know, if the, if you're trying to solve a problem, clearly pe- that problem exists already and people are trying to solve it in one way or another. And, and, uh, and I did come across a, a company that was doing, um, uh, personalized greeting cards, pr- uh... And, and I, I approached them and said, "Oh, I've, I've got a choice. I can either... I've come up with a plan. I can either do it myself or I can invest in your business." And, um, and, uh, and anyway, he, the terms he offered were ridiculous. And also the other problem was I could see that is we would, we were going to fall out over the content of the cards because, um, I just didn't think he had a very good eye for cards. Um, I mean, that, that business, I don't think it ever turned over more than 300,000 a year.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett11:37

       Right.

   20. NJNick Jenkins11:37

       Uh, and then it died about two years later. Um, and, uh, and, and Moonpig went... So I, I went off and did my own thing. And, and what it, what it taught me actually, looking back at it, is that, is that it was all about the content. It was about the quality of the, of the cards, the quality of the design of the cards 'cause actually the customer doesn't really care how the card was produced. They don't care about the technology at all. What they want is the end product.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett11:57

       Mm-hmm.

   22. NJNick Jenkins11:58

       And, and we have the best end product.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett11:59

       That's so interesting because, um, a lot of entrepreneurs are put off from starting an idea because when they Google their idea that they have, they find 10 other people that are already doing it. And I, I, I really wanted to touch on this point because I think it's quite liberating-

   24. NJNick Jenkins12:12

       Yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett12:12

       ... for entrepreneurs listening. When I started my business, in fact, every business I've ever started that's been successful had a major...... incumbent already.

   26. NJNick Jenkins12:19

       Hmm.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett12:19

       And we might, we became the biggest, and it's for exactly what you described. It's those, there's probably a thousand small details that go into making a successful, but maybe there's more.

   28. NJNick Jenkins12:27

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett12:27

       Let's just say there's a thousand.

   30. NJNick Jenkins12:27

       Yeah.
4. 27:04 – 31:07

   Stepping back from MoonPig and hiring people

   1. NJNick Jenkins27:04

      My, my general approach to this is, uh, is try to focus on the things that only you can do. Um, and when you really narrow it down and, and you become a bigger company, you realize that actually, um, there's, that really does narrow it down a lot because I always try to hire people, replace the things that I was doing with people who could do it better than I could do it. Uh, and then once they're doing it better than I could do it, you think, "Gosh, well, I'm not gonna interfere with that anymore." So leave-

   2. SBSteven Bartlett27:28

      (laughs)

   3. NJNick Jenkins27:28

      ... them to it. Uh, and then it eventually then comes down to, um, uh, to a role I, I... My role eventually that became that of executive chairman. So, uh, I, I brought in a CEO and I became executive chairman. And I suppose then my role was that strategic role of making sure that we're, we're pointing in the right direction and also that we take those big decisions. Um-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett27:48

      What are you bad at?

   5. NJNick Jenkins27:51

      I'm, I'm-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett27:52

      Or not good, not as good as someone else at, should we say?

   7. NJNick Jenkins27:55

      I, I think I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm good at short term detail. I can, I can sprint on real fine detail. Um, so I can, I can sit on a spreadsheet for six hours overnight and come up with a, a, a beautiful bit of financial modeling, but I, I've got 1,000,001 things going on and, and, and so, so, so I, I don't know that I'm necessarily a completer finisher.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett28:13

      Okay.

   9. NJNick Jenkins28:13

      Um, and there are people who are good at that. So interesting, when I'm looking at hiring people, I, I will often... Although, um, I, academic results aren't everything. F- the... You always need someone who, uh, has got straight As at A-level because they're very good at understanding the question and delivering it, delivering the answer. So they understand what's expected of them, and they deliver it in a very predictable way. Uh, whereas CEOs can often be quite maverick, and you ask them one question and they will answer something else completely different, but much more interesting.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett28:44

       Yeah.

   11. NJNick Jenkins28:44

       Um, and that's fine. You can afford to have one or two of those mavericks, but somebody in the company has to be on a good completer finisher. Um, they understand the question and they deliver it.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett28:54

       Have you... This is interesting. So there's certain people in my, in my, in my previous business where I knew they were, like, useless at organization and process-

   13. NJNick Jenkins29:02

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett29:02

       ... and they were, they were just dread... They couldn't... They were, like, unreliable, but they had one skill, which was genius.

   15. NJNick Jenkins29:08

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett29:09

       And so it would almost be like making an ex- an exception for them within the company where, okay, they might take a long time to reply to emails and stuff like that, but that one point of, like-

   17. NJNick Jenkins29:18

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett29:18

       ... creative genius that they brought to the company was worth it.

   19. NJNick Jenkins29:21

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett29:22

       Did you ever have that?

   21. NJNick Jenkins29:23

       Uh, v- th- very definitely. You've got, you, you've got some people... I think creative genius always comes at a price.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett29:28

       Yeah. (laughs)

   23. NJNick Jenkins29:29

       Uh, and, and it becomes, because someone has focused on one thing at the expense-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett29:34

       Mm-hmm.

   25. NJNick Jenkins29:34

       ... of something else generally-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett29:35

       Mm-hmm.

   27. NJNick Jenkins29:36

       ... um, and, uh, and, and, and so you just have to work with it. Um, and, and say, "Right, okay, well, let's recognize this person doesn't do that." And, and actually those skills can easily be dealt with by something else that you... Get them a good PA, someone who can organ- get a good completer finisher behind them-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett29:49

       Yeah.

   29. NJNick Jenkins29:49

       ... who picks up after them. And, and, and then they will come up with the ideas that nobody else would've come up with.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett29:55

       Yeah.
5. 31:07 – 34:21

   Your personal sacrifice

   1. SBSteven Bartlett31:07

   2. NJNick Jenkins31:07

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett31:07

      ... specif- I heard you talk in some interviews about year, you know, three, four, five, et cetera being particularly hard, but, um...What was, what was the personal sacrifice of that? I'm, I'm thinking now about how easy it was to maintain, like, relationships and friendships when, you know, in your head, you probably have that red, red, those red numbers from the management accounts in- sort of etched into your mind at all times.

   4. NJNick Jenkins31:31

      Gotta be honest, never really got in the way.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett31:33

      That never got in the way?

   6. NJNick Jenkins31:35

      N- no, I, I'm- a lot of people confuse, um, they say, "Oh, well, running your own business, you're working all the hours that God sends." Um, I never did. If something needed to be done, I could, I, I, and, and only I could do it, then I would do it. And there were time, you know, there's the odd time when, uh, I remember once when our entire printing team, uh, uh, were off ill and I came back from a business trip to Austr- from Aus- from Australia to discover that we were three, three days behind on, on our printing schedule. And I simply, I simply got in the printing room. I was the only other person qualified to use the printer, so I just sat in the printing room and I worked, uh, 24 hours a day for two, for three days, I think, um, to, to get it all done. So yes, there were times. But, but I had a great social life. I've always been a great believer also that, that I, I need to... I like to manage a business, you know, during reasonable hours. I don't, I don't, I don't think it's important that people need to sacrifice themselves on the altar of my business. Uh, and I, I don't like them doing that. One, because it makes me feel guilty about skiving off. Um, uh, you know, if you've got all of your, all of your people in the office and they're, they're working 24 hours a day and, and, and you're sort of, you know, taking half the day off to go and do something fun, uh, you feel awful. Um, so, so I try to make sure the same standards apply and, and, and, and that people should, people should work a proper day, you know, proper days work in the hours that they would like to work within reason. Um, but I do expect them to go off and go and do something different and recharge their batteries in the evening and the weekends and, and, uh, um, you know, because otherwise you just run out of steam. And particularly it was a creative business, you know, and we, we're, we're trying to make people laugh if you're exhausted and miserable, um, um, that's tough.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett33:06

      Goes against a lot of the sort of typical narrative, doesn't it, in entrepreneurship, like the hustle porn star entrepreneur who just like fucking doesn't sleep and just caffeine and just, you know, they're like crying in the street (laughs) like, and they're like, you know, eating ramen noodles and stuff like that. What does that, what does that narrative make you, uh, make you think?

   8. NJNick Jenkins33:23

      Well, I think that's true. If, if you start a business with a lot of people start a business with nothing, and a lot of businesses fail. And, and as those businesses are failing, clearly, obviously you're down to your last pennies. And that's tough. And, and, and, uh, so I think that the thing that they're describing is that is the last sort of death throws of a, of a, of a business. And I, you know, and I've seen lots of businesses that I've invested in go through the same thing where there is no money left, you can't pay salaries, uh, and the, the founders are down to, um, you know, they're living in the office, um, under the desk and, and eating noodles. Uh, and, and, and so that happens. Um, but it, but it is, it isn't, it isn't an essential part of the journey.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett34:02

      Mm-hmm.

   10. NJNick Jenkins34:02

       It's generally the death throws.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett34:03

       Mm-hmm.

   12. NJNick Jenkins34:04

       And occasionally you survive. I mean, you know, had I not had, had I not had that last bit of cash that I put in, I, I may well have been one of those cases. Um-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett34:12

       What about focus? A lot of entrepreneurs, you know, have... I get a lot of messages from entrepreneurs that have multiple businesses, three or four startups they're doing at the same time.

   14. NJNick Jenkins34:20

       Well, I wouldn't

6. 34:21 – 37:05

   Maintaining Focus

   1. NJNick Jenkins34:21

      invest in anybody that had multiple startups.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett34:23

      Yeah.

   3. NJNick Jenkins34:23

      But what... You know, because if I'd had three businesses going at the same time as Moonpig and Moonpig was going badly, you, you focus on the one that's going well because it makes you feel better. So-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett34:32

      (laughs) True.

   5. NJNick Jenkins34:32

      ... I, I, I... And then the person, then they, then they turn around to the investors who put money into the third one, and they say, "Um, yeah, no, I've given up with that one."

   6. SBSteven Bartlett34:40

      Mm-hmm.

   7. NJNick Jenkins34:40

      "I'm off to..." So there is no way. I mean, I, when I invest in a business, I would make sure that there is a clause that says that the, the found- the founder shareholders have to be a hundred percent focused on that. They're not allowed to have more than a four, 5% stake in another unlimited company. I'm pretty strict about that.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett34:54

      Yeah.

   9. NJNick Jenkins34:55

      I, I, I mean, I just think it's laughable.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett34:57

       Yeah.

   11. NJNick Jenkins34:57

       Absolutely laughable that people come along and they go, "Yeah, I've got three ideas and I'd like you to invest in this one. Uh, but I've got those just in case that one doesn't work."

   12. SBSteven Bartlett35:04

       Yeah. For me it's, for me as well, I, I, I tend to think all three will fail because you're giving like 30... In my, the way that I view, even if you're not prioritizing, you're giving 33% of your time and energy to-

   13. NJNick Jenkins35:14

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett35:14

       ... and all your competitors are giving 101% and a lot of them might be sleeping under the desk. So, if you're giving 30%, you are... It, it's already hard enough to succeed giving a hundred percent.

   15. NJNick Jenkins35:23

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett35:23

       So you're really setting yourself up to failure. But I think there's this weird thing where entrepreneurs find it impressive to, to... Some, some entrepreneurs find it impressive to list multiple businesses that they're doing. And I swear if, if I hear an entrepreneur come to me with an idea and they've also got another thing they're doing, I am immediately deeply unimpressed by them because I think they've got this focus problem. Um, uh, and maybe they're... You know, like maybe they sat down and tried to think of a business idea. And for me, like when it, when business ideas don't come from some type of inspiration, when they're literally just con- contrived from, "I'm gonna try and think of a business idea," I think that it's typically more difficult. I think like some form of inspiration, even if it's a small thing of inspiration is, uh, is integral to success, um, in creating something unique. Um, but yeah, that's another thing that irritates me about...

   17. NJNick Jenkins36:14

       I, I, I get just as irritated by that. There are times when you have to push on through that barrier, and if you've got three things going and one of them is an easier journey, that's where you're gonna focus yourself when in fact the wa- that is the absolute time that you need to be completely focused on, on, on crashing through that wall that you've come up against. Uh, and, and that's where the best inspiration I ever had, and sometimes actually look- looking back, the most exciting times I ever had in my business were when my back was absolutely against the wall and think, "This is going down."

   18. SBSteven Bartlett36:43

       (laughs) Yeah.

   19. NJNick Jenkins36:44

       "This is going down." And bizarrely, I found that quite invigorating.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett36:47

       Really good. Yeah, yeah.

   21. NJNick Jenkins36:48

       Um, when everything is going incredibly well, um, there were times when I think, "Everything's going very well. Everyone's doing their job. Frankly, I could be here or not be here, it doesn't make much difference."

   22. SBSteven Bartlett36:56

       Mm-hmm.

   23. NJNick Jenkins36:56

       Um...

   24. SBSteven Bartlett36:57

       In terms of skills as well as an entrepreneur, you, I heard you talk about public speaking being integral to... You did public speaking at university.

   25. NJNick Jenkins37:03

       I, I did-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett37:04

       (...)

   27. NJNick Jenkins37:04

       I did a lot of public speaking

7. 37:05 – 42:20

   The importance of being able to communicate well

   1. NJNick Jenkins37:05

      at university and a lot of debating. And the skill I think that's important is the ability to be able to persuade people of your ideas.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett37:11

      Yeah.

   3. NJNick Jenkins37:11

      Um, not necessarily public speaking, but in every meeting that you go to, you need to be able to look people in the eye and convince them that your idea is right. And, and that could be in a sales role, it could be sitting around a table with a bunch of developers and one of them saying, "I think this is the right way forward." If you can't articulate yourself properly, then you're never gonna be listened to. And that's a skill that I think is, is, um-... uh, it's being recognized in schools. And I- I do a lot in education now, so I- I- I see now more and more they recognize that that's a skill that is really important, that people, you should be able to look someone in the eye and be able to explain yourself very- very coherently.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett37:44

      I, I tend to actually believe, I'd go one step further and think, I can't think of a more important skill in life-

   5. NJNick Jenkins37:49

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett37:49

      ... and business, than, we, I call it, I- I refer to it as sales. Because an- and we think of sales, we think of trying to get cash out of someone else's pocket by giving them something.

   7. NJNick Jenkins37:57

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett37:57

      But I think of it as like, meet a girl in a nightclub, you know, try and communicate your-

   9. NJNick Jenkins38:01

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett38:01

       ... idea to your team.

   11. NJNick Jenkins38:02

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett38:02

       Investors, employees, um, everyone you encounter I think is a, to some degree are trying to sell something, and it's usually yourself.

   13. NJNick Jenkins38:10

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett38:10

       But, and it, those that are, if you think about how that compounds over the, over 70 years of your life, being good or bad at that one skill-

   15. NJNick Jenkins38:16

       Yeah. Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett38:16

       ... will anything change the trajectory of your life more than being a com- like, a good salesperson? And, and that comes from, as you say, from being on- able to articulate yourself and speak, and...

   17. NJNick Jenkins38:25

       Yeah. And, and th- just think coherently, and put down a- a logical argument-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett38:29

       Mm-hmm.

   19. NJNick Jenkins38:29

       ... that people think, "Yes, okay, I get that. I understand it."

   20. SBSteven Bartlett38:32

       How does one get better at that?

   21. NJNick Jenkins38:33

       (smacks lips) I think a lot of that's practice.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett38:35

       Yeah.

   23. NJNick Jenkins38:36

       Um, um, and I- I- I think p- you know, people make this, uh, sort of binary thing between public speaking, standing on a stage and speaking to a crowd of people, um, versus not doing anything at all, and actually in between there's a whole load of stuff, which is, which is w- working within a team, and-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett38:49

       Yeah.

   25. NJNick Jenkins38:49

       ... and being able to ... Uh, and that, that's b- where most people come up against it, is that they'll be sitting in a meeting with four or five other people, and they've got something they want to say, and they, if they're too, if they're too nervous about saying something, they just don't say anything at all, and then their ideas are never listened to.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett39:03

       Yeah.

   27. NJNick Jenkins39:03

       Uh-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett39:03

       And then they're devalued-

   29. NJNick Jenkins39:05

       Yeah.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett39:05

       ... in that context.
8. 42:20 – 45:55

   Dragons Den

   1. SBSteven Bartlett42:20

      it was, uh, yeah, I mean, the first pitch, everything, walking in behind the set, I mean, I first watched it when I was 12 years old-

   2. NJNick Jenkins42:26

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett42:26

      ... and it was all so surreal. How was your experience on Dragon's Den, and what advice would you have for me? Let's do the first question first.

   4. NJNick Jenkins42:32

      Ah, okay. Well, so my, so I, I loved the experience.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett42:35

      Yeah.

   6. NJNick Jenkins42:35

      Um, I mean, partly it, because it's- it's very forgiving television to make in the sense that, uh, you arrive on set, and apart from the fact that there are seven cameras-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett42:43

      (laughs)

   8. NJNick Jenkins42:43

      ... um, which for, was distracting for about the first hour or two. Other than that, it's people walking through the door and they're saying, "This is who I am, this is my business." And it's one of those things that I think, I think if you're, uh, if you're thinking about that as a potential career-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett42:57

      Mm.

   10. NJNick Jenkins42:57

       ... it's about as realistic as you can get, um, while still being entertaining. These are, these are real businesses that people have spent sometimes several years developing, put their life and soul into it.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett43:06

       Mm-hmm.

   12. NJNick Jenkins43:06

       It's not some concocted thing that, um, you know, here's 100 pounds, uh, go and see how much cheese you can sell on the market, uh, the type of thing that you see on The Apprentice. These are real businesses. And I think it's been very inspiring. Uh, I've seen a ground- a sh- a real shift in the time that I've been around in- in people's attitudes to becoming an entrepreneur, um ...

   13. SBSteven Bartlett43:25

       Because of, yeah.

   14. NJNick Jenkins43:26

       Uh, partly, but, you know, partly because of that. I think there's also been a, a shift in attitude generally.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett43:30

       There has, yeah, for sure.

   16. NJNick Jenkins43:30

       A- and a lot of, a lot of young people aspire to the idea that actually when you're young and you've got nothing to lose-You can afford to make more mistakes. So rather than, so you can just go straight, straight into it after-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett43:40

       Yeah.

   18. NJNick Jenkins43:40

       ... after school, start something and crash and burn, start again, um-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett43:44

       And you can do it all now from your phone as well. You know, you can set up a shop-

   20. NJNick Jenkins43:47

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett43:48

       ... using Shopify on your phone in a couple of minutes and sell-

   22. NJNick Jenkins43:50

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett43:50

       ... stuff. You know, you can even drop th- drop th- drop ship things, so you don't need a warehouse or anything like that.

   24. NJNick Jenkins43:54

       Yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett43:54

       So it's very incredibly accessible now.

   26. NJNick Jenkins43:56

       Yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett43:56

       Um, more people, young people wanna be entrepreneurs-

   28. NJNick Jenkins43:59

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett43:59

       ... than ever before.

   30. NJNick Jenkins44:00

       But, uh, but I, but I, I, I think it's, it, I'm, I'm really looking forward to seeing, uh-
9. 45:55 – 52:01

   Selling Moonpig

   1. SBSteven Bartlett45:55

   2. NJNick Jenkins45:55

      Well, I sold, I sold most of it in 2011 and I rolled over, um, I rolled over into the venture capital investment in the new, in the new company. We basically merged two companies. We merged Photobox and Moonpig together, um, with a lot of venture capital money. And, and so I reinvested in that and then we sold, sold it all out in 2016.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett46:13

      Um, so there's a couple of things here. That was the first point where you became really rich. Really rich.

   4. NJNick Jenkins46:17

      Well, funnily, we, Moonpig started making a lot of money before we sold.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett46:21

      Oh, really? Okay.

   6. NJNick Jenkins46:21

      So, so we were probably making about 10 million a year in divi-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett46:24

      Profit?

   8. NJNick Jenkins46:24

      ... in dividends. Um-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett46:25

      Fucking hell.

   10. NJNick Jenkins46:26

       So, uh, which, which... Uh, because it was making money faster, faster than we could spend it on advertising. So, so we, so we just paid it out as dividends, I think.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett46:34

       Quite literally.

   12. NJNick Jenkins46:34

       I think we paid out about 30 million pounds in dividends before we sold.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett46:37

       Oh, wow.

   14. NJNick Jenkins46:38

       So, um-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett46:39

       Quite literally printing money.

   16. NJNick Jenkins46:40

       So, so, so by the time I, I sold actually it, it wasn't as if it was transformational because, um, I, I hadn't spent the money. I'd, I'd still got all the money that I'd taken out as dividends, so.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett46:49

       When, when you... so if you, you, you'd already built enough wealth to take care of a- all of your sort of base, basic Maslovian needs clearly, you know?

   18. NJNick Jenkins46:55

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett46:56

       So when you s- when you sell, how, how does that feel?

   20. NJNick Jenkins46:59

       Well, it, it was funny. I, I was, uh, I was interviewed afterwards and, um, on Sky, I think, and, and they said, "Well, you know, what are you gonna buy?" Uh, "What are you gonna do now?"

   21. SBSteven Bartlett47:07

       (laughs)

   22. NJNick Jenkins47:07

       And I, I said, "Right." "What did you do immediately afterwards?" And I said, "Oh, well, I cycled home and I made a peanut butter and jam sandwich." I mean, that was... because th- there was a, it, it was slightly, it's a bit of a weird anti-climax selling. I don't know how it was for you, but, but I went into a large room and, and I had to sign about 200 documents, um, on my own. And then I'd sort of done it now and they go, "Oh, great. We'll, money will be in the bank later on." Back on the bike, cycle home. That was it. There was no sort of, you know, da-da-da-da, no trumpets, you know, no signings shaking hands. It was, it was, um, um, quite a non-event really.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett47:39

       So the money arrives the same day when you've sold?

   24. NJNick Jenkins47:42

       Um-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett47:42

       All of it?

   26. NJNick Jenkins47:43

       Yes. Yeah. Well, not all of it because it was done in st- it was done in stages.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett47:45

       Yeah.

   28. NJNick Jenkins47:45

       But most of it arrived on the same day. Yeah. Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett47:47

       And so the, you, you sold the company over 100 million at the time.

   30. NJNick Jenkins47:51

       Yeah.
10. 52:01 – 57:52

    You seem very balanced

    1. SBSteven Bartlett52:01

       it a little bit earlier, but my, my question's, um, slightly related, um, is there seems to be a lot of, like, neurotic obsession with people's businesses, hobbies. I mean, I remember sitting with Eddie Hearn here and him telling me how re- like how... I mean, his book is called Relentless, like how relentless he is, and to the point where he will sacrifice his family to fuel the business. And he'll tell them, he'll speak to have the conversation with his wife and say, "My business is everything. If I, you know, don't make the date, if I don't make this, then it is what it is."

    2. NJNick Jenkins52:30

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett52:30

       "I am obsessed."

    4. NJNick Jenkins52:32

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett52:32

       Um, you don't seem to be like that. And that makes me... One would then therefore assume that the problem that sometimes comes with being like that, which is a severe cost to sort of relationships, wouldn't be present in you.

    6. NJNick Jenkins52:49

       I, I think you can be driven by two things. You can be driven by demons or driven by passion.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett52:52

       Yeah.

    8. NJNick Jenkins52:53

       And it's much better to be driven by passion than demons.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett52:55

       Yeah.

    10. NJNick Jenkins52:56

        Some people are, some, some people were offended at the age of 11 by a comment that somebody made to them that they'll never amount to anything.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett53:01

        Their dad, yeah.

    12. NJNick Jenkins53:01

        And they, and they have struggled ever since to prove to that person that-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett53:04

        Yeah.

    14. NJNick Jenkins53:04

        ... that a teacher said something bad to them. And then finally they go back sort of 35 years later, they go back to school and, and, and, and they find this, you know, old teacher who says, "Well, I always thought you'd make something of yourself." And they think-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett53:15

        (laughs) Fuck.

    16. NJNick Jenkins53:15

        ... "I was hoping it was gonna be more gratifying." (laughs)

    17. SBSteven Bartlett53:17

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    18. NJNick Jenkins53:18

        It, it was, it was, um, you know, might, the teacher might just say, "Well, I just felt you needed a bit of a kick, um, to, to, to get yourself off your..." And it worked, didn't it? Um, so, um, pe- there's, some people are driven by... (sighs) And, and the people who are driven by demons are often, it doesn't make them happy, like an itch they're scratching and, and it just makes, it makes it worse. Um-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett53:34

        Amen. Eddie Hearn's basically like that, and he, he was quite honest about that. His dad, basically, he was always trying to live up to his dad's expectations of him.

    20. NJNick Jenkins53:41

        Mm-hmm.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett53:42

        And I remember saying to him, I remember saying to Eddie, I was, you know, "What's, what's the goal then, Eddie?" "Well, you know, we're gonna sell it for five billion."

    22. NJNick Jenkins53:48

        Yeah.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett53:48

        "And then what?" And then he's like, "Well, you know, then I, you know, I'll be having my cigar and I'll go to the beach." And I go, "Do you actually think you'd, you'd go to the beach with a cigar? You just told me you are obsessive and rel-"

    24. NJNick Jenkins53:57

        Yeah.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett53:57

        And he goes, "Probably not. Probably, probably won't." (laughs)

    26. NJNick Jenkins53:59

        No. And actually the difficult thing is then what do you do afterwards?

    27. SBSteven Bartlett54:02

        Yeah.

    28. NJNick Jenkins54:02

        I think, because the... I think it's one thing that a lot of people, it, um, they think a business is, or starting a business is about you start a business and then you are working towards an exit, and happiness comes in exit. It doesn't. Happiness comes from the process of building a business and working with people and pulling together bright people, watching them work and, and creating this thing. I love the learning process. I think that's per- perhaps one of the other things that I learned out of all of this is that (clears throat) I really, really enjoy learning. And it doesn't matter how much money you've got, you can't learn Japanese any quicker.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett54:28

        Mm-hmm.

    30. NJNick Jenkins54:28

        Well, you can learn it a little bit quicker if you've, like, you've got some really good... But basically you've gotta put the work in. Doesn't matter how rich you are, you can't buy that. You've actually gotta put the work in.
11. 57:52 – 1:01:45

    The next chapter of your life

    1. SBSteven Bartlett57:52

       where all-

    2. NJNick Jenkins57:52

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett57:52

       ... the fun and fulfillment lives.

    4. NJNick Jenkins57:54

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett57:54

       Um, and you kind of, like... 'Cause I think we all kind of, like, mentally map out what the next phase of our life will look like. We don't necessarily know the details or have a business plan-

    6. NJNick Jenkins58:02

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett58:02

       ... but we understand, like, the- the fundamentals of that phase. What- what- what are you, what are you hoping will be part of that phase, um, at the stage of life you're at when money isn't, you know, money isn't gonna m- mean that you can, can or can't eat? Um, what are you trying to put into that chapter of your life?

    8. NJNick Jenkins58:18

       Well- well, um, the other thing I've realized, um, and I- I listened to something Bill Gates said, which is that if Bill Gates had become a doctor, he could have affected quite a few people's lives. But by going into business, he affected millions of people's lives, and he was very good at making money. And so I don't see anything wrong with pursuing... I mean, now, um, I'm actively pursuing the businesses that I- that I'm involved with, um, and I would love to make more money, but then that gives me the freedom to do something useful with that money. It- it adds a whole other dimension to why- why are you doing it? I mean, I'm not chasing 'cause I need another Lamborghini-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett58:47

       Mm-hmm.

    10. NJNick Jenkins58:48

        ... um, because I've got a very old battered Discovery and a Lamborghini would... I- it's just not what I-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett58:52

        I was gonna say, I couldn't imagine you in a Lamborghini. (laughs)

    12. NJNick Jenkins58:54

        No, no, I've just got a very, very tired old Discovery, which I'm driving into the ground before I buy an electric car. But there's gotta be a reason for doing it. And- and, you know, the reason, the reason for creating companies, partly because it is, it is good fun. I mean, I thoroughly enjoy... You have an idea and you- and you're creating something, um, and, uh, seeing your idea come play out and you think, "Yeah, I was right. That- that hypothesis was right." So, we pull together some good people and it starts to work. And then ten- ten years later, absolutely that- that- that worked. And we've got a whole load of people in employment, they're enjoying themselves. And the great thing also is when you step back from that, uh, and you think that- that thing... I mean, Moonpig has a life of its own. I mean, I was in the car the other day and there was a Moonpig advert came on the radio-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett59:35

        (laughs)

    14. NJNick Jenkins59:35

        ... and I thought, "I've been, I've been out of that for a long time now. Um, I haven't been involved dir- you know, haven't worked there for ten years." And yet that's, it sort of carried on without me. Um-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett59:45

        There's a huge sense of pride in that when you see that. It must be, surely.

    16. NJNick Jenkins59:47

        Yeah. And actually, but, you know, when you sell a business, it's also a sense of pride that it worked for them as well. I think-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett59:51

        Mm-hmm.

    18. NJNick Jenkins59:51

        ... the very best deals are deals where both parties came away happy.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett59:55

        Will you ever be a CEO again?

    20. NJNick Jenkins59:58

        I- I don't know that I will because-

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:00

        'Cause it sucks. (laughs)

    22. NJNick Jenkins1:00:01

        ... I enjoy, I enjoy the sort of, the being a- having the freedom to do different things.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:05

        Yeah.

    24. NJNick Jenkins1:00:05

        Um, and there are plus and minuses to have this- this plural life. Um, I- I've realized that having, doing 10% of ten things is twice as much work as doing 100% of one thing. Um-

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:17

        Twice as much work?

    26. NJNick Jenkins1:00:18

        Definitely twice as much work.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:19

        Yeah.

    28. NJNick Jenkins1:00:19

        I mean, partly, from a very simple perspective is the, is the, is the, um... I mean, necessarily now post-COVID, but before that, the- the actually, simply the getting from one place to the other-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:29

        Oh, yeah, yeah.

    30. NJNick Jenkins1:00:30

        ... um, you know, and- and that- that gets in the way of things. Um, but also it's the constant jumping in your head-

Episode duration: 1:08:33