The Diary of a CEONastyGal Founder: I Was A Stripper! A Shoplifter! Then Built A $400m Business! Sophia Amoruso | E239
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,151 words- 0:00 – 2:04
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
Didn't you get an offer to sell the company for $400 million? (cash register dings)
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah, I did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Would've made you...
- SASophia Amoruso
Super (censored) rich.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why didn't you say yes?
- SASophia Amoruso
(laughs) You're very good at this. Sophia Amoruso.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Founder of Nasty Gal. A best-selling author. And a powerhouse in the entrepreneurial world.
- SASophia Amoruso
I was rebellious from a very early age. I was a stripper. (laughs) I wasn't even 21, I used someone else's ID to work there. Built an online business and the first thing I sold online was stolen. Get a whole shopping cart of stuff, put 'em on Amazon for 10 cents less than the other resellers, and then gotten arrested for shoplifting. I'm a little dark. I realized I could connect my creativity to something legitimate and started Nasty Gal, selling vintage.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Nasty Gal went from $150,000 a year to doing $150,000 over lunch.
- SASophia Amoruso
I didn't realize the amount of responsibility I had, being the poster child of entrepreneurship. Then I was this girlboss, but my naivete and lack of experience did send me to the grave. Nasty Gal fell apart after 10 years. My husband of, like, a year left. The headlines weren't nice. Then Netflix comes out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You just got played. What is it like from a mental health perspective?
- SASophia Amoruso
It's hard to pull yourself out of a hole when you don't wanna get out of bed. It's challenged my confidence and I'm still like, "I don't belong here," but "I don't belong here" is also a really great motivator. "I don't belong here" means I don't fit in, but that's gonna be a superpower. I can do things differently.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was the plan in life at that point?
- SASophia Amoruso
Oh, gosh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask from you. Two months ago, 74% of people that watch this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%, so if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you and enjoy this episode. Sophia,
- 2:04 – 7:04
Early context
- SBSteven Bartlett
take me back to those suburbs in San Diego and give me your earliest context.
- SASophia Amoruso
Wow. I was born in San Diego at Sharp Memorial Hospital. Only child, eternally and only child. I think wound up having the personality of a probably seven children and the challenge of maybe seven (laughs) children for my parents. Um, we moved a few times. You know, our house was like... It was, it was happy-ish when I was young. I lived in San Diego till I was seven, and it's a beautiful place and I so wish we would've stayed there, but we moved to beautiful Sacramento, California. And that was really the suburban experience, where, you know, when you're a kid, a little kid, you don't know what a suburb is, and chasing the ice cream man is great. But once you get older, living in the suburbs, if you have any amount of curiosity about the world, the homogenous, you know, nature of living in the suburbs is something that totally crushed me. I knew there was more out there and I didn't know what it was, but I wanted, I, like, wanted out from a very early age.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what did you, what did you want at a very early age? When you say you wanted out...
- SASophia Amoruso
Oh, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...what did you want?
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah. I wanted out of my family home. It wasn't happy. My parents didn't get along. I was playing referee, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
At what, what age?
- SASophia Amoruso
Starting at, like, 10 or something. I mean, yeah, it was just... It wasn't a super happy place and they, yeah, they didn't get along, they didn't always agree on how to raise me, and I think when your parents, you know, everybody's relationship has issues and everybody's, not everybody's, but most people's parents, you know, sometimes don't get along. When you have a sibling, I think you can go be like, "Mm, that's funny," or "They're whatever, let's just go play with LEGOs or something like that," or "Let's go ride bikes." But I think being isolated in a house that wasn't super happy as an only child made it worse, and I just remember so many drives, silent car drives, where I was in the back seat alone and I just remember, like, the silence and the, the light of the street lights, like, washing over the car just in s- in silence with my parents in the two front seats. Um, yeah, they were really, like, only affectionate after, like, an argument? And even then it was like, I don't know, hand holding or something. They were very strict as well. I had to beg to go to a boy's birthday party in sixth grade. We weren't super religious, but my mom grew up in the '50s in a Greek Orthodox household. Um, just not puritanical, 'cause that sounds less cultural than Greek Orthodoxy, but, uh, strict, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about money? A lot of, um...
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... a lot of arguments happened in my household when I was younger because of money.
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah. I mean, my dad sold... My dad did loans and my mom sold houses, but track homes in the suburbs and they were both working with builders and banks and manufactured homes. And so on the weekends, by the time I was, I don't know, maybe 10, my mom was working in the model homes that are all kind of dressed up and you can tour them and pick your manufactured home and change a couple things and there was, like, a fake keyboard in there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
And just all kinds of funny things to play with. And then, so I was with my dad on weekends.And my- and they both worked entirely commission, so I've never seen either of my parents work for a salary. My mom's dad didn't work for a salary, and my dad's dad owned a motel, and they all grew up on a motel. So, there's like generations of my family who wouldn't necessarily call themselves entrepreneurs, but they're people who ate what they killed, and that's what I witnessed. Money was good, I think, when I was like, you know, when we were in San Diego. And I think it got tougher over time. I remember very vividly being in a credit counselor's office. I just can't believe they brought me but there was no- I don't know where they'd have- would've put me, watching them cut up their credit cards, like cut their credit cards in half and put them in a clear jar with, like, other people's cut up credit cards and file for chapter 11.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Bankruptcy?
- SASophia Amoruso
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you know what was going on?
- SASophia Amoruso
No. I still don't know what happ-
- 7:04 – 11:06
Do you know what affected you most as a child?
- SASophia Amoruso
I don't know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
As an adult, are you able to look back on that- that first sort of chapter of your life and figure out how it had a lasting impact on various elements of who you are today?
- SASophia Amoruso
I think it allowed me to, even though it was so challenging younger in life, to learn how to assimilate into different environments. Um, to, I guess entertain myself independently, to realize that authority was, like adults were not trained to be parents and weren't any further along with their maturity sometimes than I was at my age. You know, I looked at teachers and thought, "Wow, y- you know, you have domain expertise. Y- you know some stuff but I can tell that, like, you're morally bankrupt and I don't trust you. And why have I been put in your, you know, in your hands?" Um, I think the thing that had the biggest impact on me is how critical my dad was. So, he's half Italian and half Portuguese, and his dad was a mean, mean guy. And my dad's very charismatic and I love him and he's super chill now. But when I was young, he had a lot of pressure on him and he didn't really have the best model of what a great parent looked like, and I can't say he was a bad parent. You know, he did his best. I know that both of my parents did their best with the materials that they had, the ingredients that they had to be parents. But it instilled in me this unfortunate but also very fortunate, um, always peeling back another layer of the onion, examining myself, but also real internalized drive to do better and a self-criticism that has worked very well for me. That's been challenging. It's challenged my confidence over time, but it also has been a superpower to, in some ways, I don't know, in some ways hold myself accountable because I'm always, I almost wanna say second guessing myself? But also very, um, in a very, I guess someone said Jesuit way at one point, but a way where I can see both sides of everything, you know, challenging my doubts and my ego. But the problem with that is sometimes it's hard to differentiate between the two. What is, you know, fiction and what isn't, and what of my self-critiques are accurate because I wanna be, and I think I am a pretty self-aware person. And even with the things that I'm not great at, I'm like super proud of that 'cause I've got a ton of advantages and things that I'm really great at. But I think it was the criticism I experienced early on in life for so long that instilled that in me, and I've learned how to turn it into something that's more balanced than what it was when I inherited it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you inherited it?
- SASophia Amoruso
When it was handed to me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the first time you received it.
- SASophia Amoruso
You know, the model I had. The level of critique that I had that didn't have the counterpoint that I'm able to provide for myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're talking about your father here?
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He- he would critique you?
- SASophia Amoruso
Yes!
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you say critique, do- do you mean, "Oh, that's- that's naughty. Don't do that."?
- SASophia Amoruso
No. No, like, "That's not how you do something," or, "Why- why'd you do it like that?" Or, "Can you not?" Or, you know. I mean, I love my dad and- and he's, you know, as both of my parents have gotten older, they split when I was 17 and I've just watched them both become such better people. And I remember congratulating them when they finally split up and was so glad at 17 years old, and I was also like, "I'm outta here. See ya."
- 11:06 – 17:33
Always wanting to rebel
- SASophia Amoruso
- SBSteven Bartlett
You seemed to become a bit of a rebel, you know, from- from when you moved out of your parent's house for the next couple of years, I- it- the behavior looked really rebellious.
- SASophia Amoruso
Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I was rebellious from a very early age. I remember in middle school, a teacher... I was eating an apple in class. I was eating an apple. It was healthy. I was hungry. I've got agency over my body, I didn't know what that word meant. I'm hungry, I'm gonna eat food. I'm human, I'm hungry, I'm gonna eat food in the middle of class. But like, who- how could you tell someone not to eat when they're hungry? It's like a simple bodily function, and it keeps me healthy and it's gonna make me a better student. And it's- And I- and the teacher told me to throw the apple away. (laughs) And I had just started the apple, and of course I had the attention of the entire class. And I got up and I sauntered over to the trashcan super slowly and I just like-... ate the apple all the way to the core, like super fast. Finished the apple and was like, dink, in the trashcan. Um, so I was like that. If- if someone said not to do something, I did the thing that they didn't say I couldn't do, that was similar.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
It was peripheral.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You- you were pushing the... (laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah. And then, by the time I got to high school, I was going to the anarchist book fair in San Francisco. I was sure capitalism was, you know, the worst thing ever. I was very angsty. I thought that adulthood ... It's funny, there's a Netflix series about my life, and the first thing that the character says is, "Adulthood is where dreams go to die." And it's so weird to reference your own Netflix series. Like, who does that? But, that's how I- that's how I felt. I wasn't trying to be a child, but I also didn't wanna go work in an office. I also wasn't ambitious. So, somehow along the way, that lack of desire to live a conventional life became something that turned into ambition, because I... Not even ambition, just curiosity, is something that I was good at, and you know, eventually built a business. But, um, I, uh, in high school, in high school, I remember there being bells. Like right ... There's a bell that rings and you go from one- from one room to another room all day. A bell rings. You sit at a desk. A bell rings, and you stand up and you shuffle over to the other room. And then you sit down, and you like memorize some stuff, and then you ... Like, this is my youth. I was sure I was being trained for something super mediocre. Not that ... I wanted excellence, I just wanted out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why are you like that? 'Cause you know the- all the other kids were cool.
- SASophia Amoruso
Why am I like that? I came out like that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You think you came out-
- SASophia Amoruso
I actually came out. I came out like that. Yeah. It is not ... I mean, her-her... I'm- I might have some hereditary just kind of like Italian I'm not sure what, or something. It's not- it wasn't a nurture thing. That was a nature thing. Or, I don't know. I just like came out... I actually hatched out of a disco ball. But that's the way (laughs) -
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
That's how I came out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I- I had, um, Gabor Mate here, who's this like ... I think he's just interviewed Prince Harry actually, um, in a- in a little like pay-per-view therapy session or whatever. And Gabor Mate said something to me that I've been pondering ever since. He said that, as children, we're like narcissists, and we are that way because it helped us to survive, so we think that everything is about us when we're like babies and young. So, if the parents are arguing, we actually interpret that as there being something got to do with us.
- SASophia Amoruso
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's the way we view the world, as a survival mechanism. And he says one of the things that happens when we're in a- we're- you're a young child and we're in a house where there's lots of arguing and lots of drama and shouting, is we learn to avert our attention as a way to help us deal with the emotional distress. And that develops into something they call ADD and ADHD.
- SASophia Amoruso
Hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, we go-
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah, I took Adderall this morning. Hmm. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, they- well, yeah. (laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
Just to prepare for the podcast. Just kidding. No, I have major ADD.
- SBSteven Bartlett
ADD?
- SASophia Amoruso
But they'd diagnosed me as a kid, and I was like, "No. This is mind control. Forget it. I'm not focused because ..." I thought it was situational. I thought it was my environment. And it maybe was partially, because I wasn't interested in what was happening and distracted because I was curious about other things, but also, it's a real thing. And it wasn't until a few years ago that I finally realized it was a thing and sought treatment. And it's helped, but it's helped like marginally. It's not-
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did you realize it was a real thing-
- SASophia Amoruso
... helped.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... a couple years ago?
- SASophia Amoruso
I- I've been- I mean, you know, I go to a psychiatrist and I talk about what's going on with my brain and, um, do what I can to help myself, um, holistically, but also I know ... I'm also predisposed to de- depression. Not predisposed. I've suffered with depression my whole life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Since when?
- SASophia Amoruso
My whole life. I don't- I can't remember an age where I wasn't depressed. I- I just- I wasn't always miserable, but I've- I'm kind of a dark ... I'm a little dark. Um, and that's not something ... You know, it's hard to pull yourself out of a hole when you don't wanna get out of bed. Like that's- You know, to have the willpower to just get over depression and put on a happy face, and whatever people do, get in an ice bath and jump in the sauna and meditate and ... You know, I am still struggling to be the well-rounded person, but I'm functional.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think we're all struggling to be a well-rounded person.
- 17:33 – 24:47
I'm a little dark
- SASophia Amoruso
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you ever- you said a curious phrase there which made me, um, ponder. You said, "I'm a little dark."
- SASophia Amoruso
Uh-huh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you mean by, "I'm a little dark?"
- SASophia Amoruso
Hmm. Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why are you giggling? You're making me think you are a little dark. (laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
I am. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
I'm not evil. (laughs) God. Uh, I'm not a witch. I- I guess I just-You know, like I said, I've struggled with depression. I'm not a bubbly person. I'm not someone... You know, as a child, my mom has said, "You only laughed when something was really funny." You know, I think kids run around, like, laughing and smiling 'cause they're, like, children or something. But I had to have a reason. I'm not sure why. And it's still kinda like that. And maybe it's... I don't know. As an adult, it's become something that requires... It's just being genuine. And maybe I'm not... I think maybe I'm not impressed. Maybe in general, I'm just skeptical.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You went to see a psychiatrist when you were 16?
- SASophia Amoruso
Oh, I went to see a psychiatrist when I was, like, 10.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- SASophia Amoruso
I mean, I was in, I was in therapy when I was, like, 10, 11-
- SBSteven Bartlett
With what symptoms?
- SASophia Amoruso
... trying to be diagnosed. Like, "What's wrong with her? Why can't she stay on task?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, okay.
- SASophia Amoruso
"Why is she so weird? Why doesn't she get along? Why is she distracted?" So, I have report cards that say, "Chooses to disturb others." You know, "Doesn't stay on task." It's stuff like that. It was like, I was always like, you know, not paying attention, curious about something else, engaged with something else. It wasn't always to be rebellious. Sometimes it was very good natured and I would get in trouble for things that I didn't think were bad or intend to be bad. But it was also just very, a very willful, independent thinker who didn't fit into a traditional educational environment. And, you know, that's something, for whatever reason, seemed to be needed to be diagnosed. But then I was like, "N- no. I'm not taking Wellbutrin and I'm not gonna take-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's that?
- SASophia Amoruso
It's like an antidepressant. I didn't take it. I was like, "No, I'm not taking any of this."
- SBSteven Bartlett
When did they... When, what age were you?
- SASophia Amoruso
And I... That was by high school, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you were 16-ish, around that time, when they-
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah, 15, 16, and I was like, "This is... It's... I don't feel like myself." I feel wired and weird and... I got I-I... Like, I think I got Ritalin and someone tried to buy it off me in, like, high school and I was like, "What are you... What?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
"I don't even get it." And I was like, "I'm th- just throwing this stuff in the trash." I didn't...
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then, so you, so you get diagnosed and prescribed an antidepressant at 16-ish.
- SASophia Amoruso
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your parents break up at 17-ish.
- SASophia Amoruso
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You leave the-
- 24:47 – 29:38
Being a stripper
- SASophia Amoruso
- SBSteven Bartlett
How long did you try the stripping thing?
- SASophia Amoruso
I don't know. I mean, when you're in your late teens, early 20s, time just feels like, it felt like a decade that I was, you know, bouncing around to these places. Probably three or five months. It was fun. I loved it. Nobody pulled anything. I never got messed with. I drank my White Russians and ate the Subway sandwich from next door and played Photo Hunt, and ... I wasn't even 21. I used someone else's ID to work there. And I got to dance to music that I liked, I made money, I didn't really have to engage with anybody, and I got really comfortable with my body in a way that I hadn't before, and that was cool.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, they say ... I- I read in your book where, where you said that you believe you hold the world record for having the most shitty jobs, like back-to-back throughout that period of your life. They say, you know, I've learnt this from this podcast, that every job teaches you something.
- SASophia Amoruso
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that thing can be applied to business. There's always a sort of a transferable skill or whatever learned. What was the transferable skill-
- SASophia Amoruso
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) ... that you learned from stripping that you think has probably stayed with you today?
- SASophia Amoruso
I think that even though I wasn't, didn't have the upper body strength to be the traditional one upside down, swinging around, what I could do, I mean, it was like shuffle around and whatever was enough, and still charismatic enough and still great enough to entertain other people. And then, being comfortable with my body. It's like exposure therapy. You know, I was the girl at 18 who would, like, make out with someone and then if I was, like, naked or something, I'd, like, put on my clothes to go to the bathroom or something. I was, like, not ... I d- I didn't sleep with anybody till I was 19, so I was just, I was kind of late. And by 20, I was (laughs) stripping in Portland.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) That escalated quickly.
- SASophia Amoruso
I'll tell you the crescendo of that experience. So, dating with, uh, dating Wade, the alcoholic fry cook who was 10 years older than me, uh, I, like, w- I was on birth control. I went off birth control for, like, one day, and there was almost, we were hardly even, you know, engaging in the way that someone might, like, get pregnant. Like, so briefly, like, that day, and then-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) You're describing sex-
- SASophia Amoruso
... no other day.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and you're like ... (laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah, I'm like, "I don't know."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
"Mm-mm, I don't know who's watching." And, uh, and I wound up, I wound up pregnant. So, I'm like 20, maybe 19, and ... I went to the Sliding Scale Women's Clinic and ... but, but it, and it was the only day I could get in, but it also happened to be the day of my court date because I had gotten arrested for shoplifting. So, I had to have the women's clinic write an excuse to the court telling them why this poor girl couldn't make it to her court date. And the whole thing got ... They were just, I kept following up to be like, "When is it rescheduled," and I think they all just felt so bad for me it kinda vanished. But that was, that was like, "Okay, no more shortcuts." It wasn't like, "I'm gonna go be a CEO." But it also just taught me that breaking some rules puts you in other people's hands, and I was, you know, being arrested. I'm not as autonomous as I would have liked to have been. And, you know, even with stripping, to a certain extent it was a shortcut. I was trying to evade, like, working hard, but it was also a lot of fun. But that was really, that was a low point. I've had lots of low points, um, but at least it's like this, right? It's been like this. You know, doesn't, it doesn't ever go that low.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's clearly, um, a slight issue here with authority, and it feels to me like the ultimate authority, which is the law, eventually was like, "You can't fuck with us. We're not the teacher."
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah, it was like, okay, like, maybe just figure out how to go, get along, you know? It wasn't like, "Wow, I'm gonna go have a career and do everything. I'm, I'm gonna just do everything differently," but also I just didn't wanna cut corners. I didn't want to end up not in control of my environment or stuck in jail or something stupid.
- 29:38 – 33:54
Shoplifting
- SASophia Amoruso
- SBSteven Bartlett
Shoplifting.
- SASophia Amoruso
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Why d'you make that sound?
- SASophia Amoruso
I don't know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
It was fun.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was your favorite thing to steal?
- SASophia Amoruso
I don't endorse shoplifting.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Neither do I.
- SASophia Amoruso
My rationale for shoplifting was that there was so much excess in, you know, our culture that it would never make a dent to steal organic tampons from Fred Meyer, which is like Target in Portland, or whatever. So, I, uh, when I did get caught, and this was my favorite thing, was just walking out with stuff. Like ...So I would get a whole shopping cart of stuff. I had a little, teeny-tiny little razor thingy, so I knew where the sensors were and I would cut them off, they were there, and pile a shopping cart high and just walk out with no bags or anything. I did it at grocery stores, I, I furnished apartments, I walked out of places with, like, literal rugs this high. Just walked out because nobody expects you to be that, like, obvious about it. They're looking for somebody who's, like, putting stuff in their pockets. And when I did get caught, (laughs) I had, like, a George Foreman grill, I think a basketball, organic tampons, some food, really nice shower curtain rings.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
They were metal and then they had, like, ceramic. They were heavy and they had, like, a ceramic thing that said hot and then the other one said cold.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
(laughs) And I was like, "Yes, this is, this is luxury."
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's worth jail time.
- SASophia Amoruso
So (laughs) that was... Yeah. And, you know, I built an online business and the first thing I sold online was stolen, so another thing. And I learned this from people who were professionally trying to, like, avoid getting jobs and p- participating in cur- capitalistic culture, which is a privilege, it's lazy, it's... It was, it was y- I was really young and I just didn't wanna work, you know? It was an ex- some kind of quasi-political lazy excuse for just not working hard. Anyway, I learned from some of the best. Um, I had a friend who had written a book called Evasion, literally, and I would go into Barnes & Noble and they had a no chase policy. Like, I knew what the policies were at these places. Because if their employees chase someone shoplifting, it's gonna cost them way much more if they get, like, knifed or something than it would for them to lose a few books. And so I would go on Amazon and I would look at the best-selling books. This is in 2002, 2003, it's like... And even look at the ratio of most expensive book to least pages so I could stack them, as many of them as high (laughs) as possible, and I would just walk to the front... Like, the front of the store would have all the bestsellers in huge stacks and I would just, like, pile them high. I'd - I looked like an employee, like, "Who's carrying a huge stack of books?" I was right in the front of the store and I just, like, walked to my car. And I'd put them on Amazon for 10 cents less than all the other resellers, I'd sell them overnight, I'd ship them media mail and I'd pay my $350 a month rent.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why weren't you scared?
- SASophia Amoruso
I think I was. But it's when you get scared that you get caught. And it's when you hesitate, you fail. It's the same thing. If you're snowboarding and you're like, "Uh-oh, it's kind of icy. Let me look down," you just, like, pff, catch an edge. If you're surfing and you look at the nose of the board, pff, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
So even that taught you a, uh, a life lesson?
- SASophia Amoruso
I guess.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That job also.
- SASophia Amoruso
I guess. I'm not proud of this. I was really young and I was finding my way. I never stole from individuals. That was, like, not on thesis for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) You can justify it.
- SASophia Amoruso
(laughs) It's not. No, I couldn't justify it. I would never have felt comfortable doing it. Um, but big box retailers, I was like, "Hmm."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Over
- 33:54 – 35:50
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- SBSteven Bartlett
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- 35:50 – 59:34
The start of Nasty Gal
- SBSteven Bartlett
So by this time, you're getting a little bit acquainted with the internet and selling things on the internet clearly, 'cause you're selling stolen stuff.
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Vintage.
- SASophia Amoruso
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why, why vintage? Why did you start to sell vintage clothes?
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah. So by 2006, I had gotten some real jobs. You know, after, after I'd worked in shoe stores and record stores and photo labs and Subway again, I... Dry, dry cleaners, I...
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did you get on with those jobs?
- SASophia Amoruso
... they didn't last very long.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, right.
- SASophia Amoruso
I liked jobs where alphabetizing, so, so record stores, photo labs, bookstores. I like paper, makes me feel important for some reason.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
Mailing things. I don't know. It worked out with my eBay store. And the last job I had was in the lobby of an art school in San Francisco at 79 New Montgomery St- Street called the Academy of Art University, and it was a job I got because I needed to get health insurance. And at the time, you couldn't get health insurance with a preexisting condition. You-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is this your hernia?
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah. The hern.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The hern?
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah. So, a hernia, if you don't know what it is, is a place... It's a hole in your muscle wall that your guts poke out of and it makes a little bump. And I had one kind of in my groin area, called an inguinal hernia. And it didn't hurt, but they're kinda dangerous because they can, like, if your muscle tenses up or something, they can get strangulated and necrotic, which is a disgusting word. So, I had to get it fixed, but before I got it fixed, it was kinda fun. I shaved everything but the hernia. (laughs) My poor boyfriend. My poor boyfriend.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SASophia Amoruso
And, um, yeah, it was, it was entertaining. It was kind of funny to have, like, a small lump in my pants for (laughs) a few weeks or something. But at the time, you could not get health insurance with a preexisting condition, even with depression. If you had medical records that said you had depression and your insurance lapsed, insurance companies would decline you. Now, that's not the case. You can have a preexisting condition and apply for health insurance. You'll be given health insurance. You could only get health insurance with a preexisting condition, like a hernia, with group health insurance, with a job. So, I had to go find a job that had health insurance, and I got this job in the lobby of the art school as a campus safety host, which was a different way of saying you're cheaper than a unionized security guard. And I wore a starchy white shirt. It was, like, a m- men's clothing. I had to wear this awful uniform with, like, a magnetic thing here that had my name and the school's logo on it and check students in and say, "Hi, you need to sign in. Can I see your ID?" That was-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were you doing anything-
- SASophia Amoruso
... the extent of-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... sort of criminal at this point?
- SASophia Amoruso
... my job. No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, all of your money came from that job and-
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah. And so, th- there was a three-month waiting period for health insurance. And while I was there, I had time to... I had some ti- downtime in this lobby and there was a computer. And, uh, there was no Facebook or Instagram at the time. This is 2006. And I was starting to get friend requests from these eBay sellers on MySpace. I wore only vintage. I was like, you know, rootin', tootin', scootin' to, like, oldies and rock and roll and dive bars and subsisting on burritos. I loved vintage. I wore vintage. I wasn't necessarily into fashion and I didn't wanna be in fashion, but I loved style and I loved vintage and I loved thrifting. And I saw what they were doing, and their auction prices were crazy. Like, I thought Haight Street was expensive, because I had shopped at thrift stores and found great stuff, and saw what their auctions were going for, and these were actual prices that the customer was determining. They would start the auction price at $9.99 and these things were going for, like, $200, $300, and they were just making it look like something that Sienna Miller or some boho, at the time it was, like, boho Olsen Twins, Sienna Miller kind of vibes. And they would do that, put the s- stuff online, and the customer determined the price. And it was so much money, and so I thought, "Okay." So, I waited my three months for my health insurance, 'cause there was a three-month waiting period, got the hern fixed, and I started an eBay store, and I wasn't trying to be an entrepreneur. I was trying to legitimately not work for anybody. And that's when I realized that I could connect my curiosity and independence and creativity and resourcefulness to something legitimate that made money, that I learned from every step I was taking, and started Nasty Gal, selling vintage out of my boyfriend's apartment.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before that point, would people have called you lazy or unmotivated?
- SASophia Amoruso
I didn't know any people who would've said something like that because (laughs) my friends were just like me, so people-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Objectively then, if- if-
- SASophia Amoruso
Objectively, I think just lost.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Lost.
- SASophia Amoruso
I- I think it would be a judgment to say I was lazy.
- 59:34 – 1:08:34
Dealing with self-doubts
- SBSteven Bartlett
Imposter syndrome, any of that?
- SASophia Amoruso
For sure, yeah. I mean, I still walk in rooms, and I'm... Here, I was talking to your team, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, you guys have really big people. I hope I can keep up. I say 'like' a lot. I'm intimidated. I hope I can provide some value. What are the comments on YouTube gonna say? Is this gonna be a valuable conversation? I really hope people like it." You know, and she was like, "What? You wouldn't be here if that wasn't the case. What, what are you talking about? You're great." But I get nervous, right? Um, I get nervous on stages, and I'm still, like, you know, "I don't, I don't belong here," but the "I don't belong here" is also a really great motivator. The "I don't belong here" is "I snuck in the back door." "I don't belong here" means "I can do things differently." "I don't belong here" means "I don't fit in, but that's gonna be a superpower," and I think it's okay to feel like an outsider or an imposter sometimes because you find yourself in places where...... you lea- you have an outside perspective and are able to learn things, unlike the people who were invited to the table who all showed up there with the same pedigree. And then you get to make oblique connections between who you are, where you came from, and then the door, the room that you just snuck into as an imposter, and that is radical.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Would you remove that self-doubting voice if, if I put a button in front of you and said, "You press this. You'll never doubt yourself again"?
- SASophia Amoruso
No. That's so boring. I had a coach recently, and he was lovely. We did five sessions. He was like, "$5,000 a month," and I was like, "Taxes. I, I'll buy something else to save on taxes." And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) .
- SASophia Amoruso
... he was like, "Can you imagine?" He asked me that word, or he asked me that question, and I was like, "But what would I struggle with? What, who would I be if I didn't have challenges and I was happy all the time?" It's like the scaffolding would fall apart or something. That's a story I tell myself. But it's fun to have a dark counterpoint to hold yourself accountable and be like, "Maybe it is that or not that." And I think that counterpoint is an opportunity to gain self-awareness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you think it's additive to your performance or reductive?
- SASophia Amoruso
I think it can slow me down and I can make really slow decisions 'cause I doubt myself. But beyond that, I think I've found a way to harness it that really works for me. And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you, have you developed, like, a decision-making framework to help you navigate the two voices in your head? It's funny, 'cause when you're describing your mother and your father, it felt like those were the two voices. Your mother would seem-
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to be very supportive, your dad somewhat critical at times or pessimistic. Um, have you found a way of being able to juggle those voices, um, so that you can make decisions decisively and quickly?
- SASophia Amoruso
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
No?
- SASophia Amoruso
Mm-mm. No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Still-
- SASophia Amoruso
So I can e- I can have these conversations, and when I, you know, when I do make a decision, I've learned to be slower with making decisions 'cause I either make them extremely quickly or slowly on accident-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SASophia Amoruso
... and so I wanna be very deliberate in the decisions that I make now and think more critically rather than, you know, naval gaze or be reactive to something. I went to this, uh, retreat, even though it's not really a luxury experience, with 30 other people called The Hoffman Process, and it's seven days with no phone, no internet, no books, no music. You're with 30 other people and you're going through this process of mapping your patterns from your childhood against your parents and how, how you inherited that, and it's all directly correlated, and basically graduating from your, uh, your emotional child into an emotional adult. Super embarrassing, weird process, like, so dorky. And everybody came with something different to work on or what emerged for them. You know, "I, I feel unloved," "I feel unlovable," "I don't feel unlovable." My thing, and it sounds really weak, was like, "I don't trust myself." I don't think I'm deceiving myself, but I think I can rationalize a lot of things to the point where I'll tolerate them too long, um, and that's gone for relationships. That went for my most recent relationship. Um, and so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- SASophia Amoruso
... that's a strange thing. I don't trust myself because I do have these voices. It sounds... I don't have voices in my head, but I can see things from any perspective and not be totally attached to either one to the point of being slow and asking for too much advice.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In that retreat, did you, did you have to sort of, like, go upstream and figure out where that belief started? Is that the point of that retreat?
- SASophia Amoruso
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you figure it out? Did you go upstream?
- SASophia Amoruso
Hmm, what a good question. You're very good at this.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, thank you.
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah. I think it was that my parents didn't agree on how to raise me, that I felt misunderstood, that my good intentions were sometimes construed as troublemaking, that the fact that I didn't fit into the environment I was raised in, I was, uh, I was not accepted and I was some kind of weird deviant when I was just being myself and felt punished for being myself. And I think that gave me, like, a lack of confidence or something, and I don't identify with being an unconfident person. But when it comes to decision-making, when everyone around you is telling you something, a different story about yourself than you have and doesn't understand why you operate the way you do, that is really with integrity and in line with who I was and what I needed to be successful as a child. If other people, like, live in a different world and don't understand that those are your needs, you just feel wildly alone and think, "Wow, I am a freak." And that found its way into my career thr- through the public too, which has been super fun being told I'm something that I'm mostly not.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What have you been told you are?
- SASophia Amoruso
Oh, gosh. Um, so Nasty Gal fell apart after 10 years. It was a s- it was a quick rise, and it was, it was a, it was a, no, it was a slow rise, and it was a-... relatively quick fall, couple years in the making. And when it did fall, the headlines were crazy 'cause I'd had all this press from this book I published and being the poster child of entrepreneurship, going on the victory lap. National Enquirer said, had, you know, a picture of me and it said, "Rags to riches," like straight-up tabloid American Dream stuff, like a caricature. And I didn't realize the amount of responsibility I had to, like, other people as an example, like I kinda did. But as some symbol for entrepreneurship for my generation, you know, generation of the entrepreneurs coming up behind me, or at least what the press thought I was reso- responsible for. The hea- you know, there were headlines like, "Does the failure of Nasty Gal mean millennials aren't ready to lead?" And it's like, wait, how is one example representative of a generation? And I've also read headlines, like, when the Netflix series came out, "The worst thing about Netflix's Girlboss is its source material." Not even the show, just me. But I'm not bad. I don't believe, I don't believe it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How does that make you feel at the time though?
- SASophia Amoruso
By the time that Netflix series came out, I had been this hero as an entrepreneur. Then I was this girlboss 'cause I wrote a
- 1:08:34 – 1:20:18
The downfall of Nasty Gal
- SASophia Amoruso
book called Girlboss and it was pink and I was like this and I looked like I knew what was up, but I was like 27. And then there was the me whose company fell apart, the CEO. There was the girlboss who had built a toxic culture, or just no intentional culture at all, all that, like, warped into something that wasn't perfect but wasn't... Still don't think it was the worst. And now this person, this conflation of all of those things with this girl on this scripted comedy which came out four months after I left Nasty Gal. So the biggest kind of personality or whatever identity crisis was, you know, I'm on the cover of Forbes in June, I think, of 2016. July of 2016, my husband of, like, a year is like, "I changed my mind," and I'm like, "Oh my God, that wedding was so expensive." It was devastating, but I'm just like, "God, that wedding was so expensive." It was a great party.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So in that space of like 12 months, you're on Forbes-
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... your husband leaves. Netflix comes out. Nasty Gal goes under.
- SASophia Amoruso
Well, Nasty Gal goes under, then Netflix comes out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ah, ooh.
- SASophia Amoruso
So the show had been shot when things were all, like, up and to the right. And, you know, we were working through challenges. There had been some layoffs, but the company was still, you know, $100 million a year. You know, not profitable anymore, but a great brand and something that was valuable and eventually, um, yeah, like fell apart and that the con- there was really a conflation of the, the hero, the failure, and now this girl four months later who's a, a caricature of a person I was when I was 22 in a scripted comedy playing someone named Sophia starting an eBay store called Nasty Gal when for the first time in 10 years in my adult life, since I was 22 years old, I am no longer associated with the thing that I had built. And now there are 130 million homes in 195 countries watching a story of someone that I was no longer and n- no longer... And trying to move on, to move on when there's a full PR campaign about who you used to be.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're someone who's, as you've said, you've had a long history with mental health challenges. What is it like in that, in that 12-month period? What's going on from a mental health perspective?
- SASophia Amoruso
Hmm. I'd fallen in love again. Think I was still, like, traveling. I started another company. I maintain my mental health partially because I keep going. You know, I don't stop and, like, lick my wounds. I think I was also, I was also on antidepressants. I wasn't jumping for joy, but I also knew that there was a huge community that still supported me who had read my book, 500,000 women who bought it, and I went on to start a company called Girlboss w- right as the Netflix series was hitting. Put on our first conference, and I had my podcast, and I moved on quickly, and even though the headlines weren't nice, the people who followed me, my friends, my relationships, everybody in my network, nobody bailed. Like, the girls who were inspired by Girlboss were refreshed that I had face-planted publicly because everyone else is face-planting in private. And in the same way that watching some random community college dropout from Sacramento start a business with an internet connection and a computer gave them license to, you know, yes, they were inspired, but also embrace their own failures because the hero face-planted publicly, and that can also inspire people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
This is hopefully the most cliché question I ask, but, um, I wanna, I wanna know, because you have a, from your, from that experience you have amazing feedback, you have amazing insight, invaluable insight I would say. Because when I think about the things, obviously, that have taught me the most, it's not, it's not when things go right, that's a validation of your hypothesis, it's when things go tragically wrong and you go, "Oh, okay, fuck."
- SASophia Amoruso
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You have all of this new information about, which has corrected your hypothesis. So, when you, if we go back and think about that fundraise, for example, um, a lot of people who hear that you raised a comp- raised investment at four- 350 million and think, "Amazing." That's when people clap, right? They, they get the champagne out-
- SASophia Amoruso
Totally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the oysters. For people listening that aren't in business, they might not understand how that can also be a key reason why the company ultimately went under. The 350 million, why, why did that big valuation hurt you?
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah. Yeah, I think the $350 million valuation, as celebrated as it was and how wealthy I was on paper, um, was the f- was the nail in the coffin. I think it was, it was then in 2012 where we were overvalued and the expectations that was, was that the next round of fundraising that we do is at a over a billion dollar valuation. And so the company's doing, you know, on an upswing to $28 million in revenue. That's, like, over 10 times revenue. And it's a fashion business, this isn't a technology business, this isn't Uber, this isn't an infinitely scalable marketplace. It's e-commerce. It was a different era of e-commerce. It was pretty early. It was the era of fab.com, which, like, imploded, and One Kings Lane and, and Beachman and ShoeDazzle. There was no playbook, there were no e-comm veterans or, you know, performance marketing people who had been in those jobs for even very long. I was hiring executives who had worked at, like, Macy's, right? Um, nobody had, like, e-comm. It wasn't called direct to consumer at the time, it was very, very different. There was no Shopify. And we were overvalued, and I didn't know that. I didn't even negot- uh, you know, hardly negotiate. I didn't shop a term sheet around and say, "I'm gonna pick the highest price from different investors." I only had one term sheet, and I was like, "Great, I like you."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Index Ventures, which are a-
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah, I was like, "You're awesome."
- SBSteven Bartlett
... phenomenal.
- SASophia Amoruso
"You can, I, you get it." You know what Danny said when he invested, uh, was something none of the other potential investors said, and that was, "You have a community." And I was like, "Yeah, we do have a community." But when you have that much money, you don't know there's been a nail in the coffin or that there's a coffin and that, like, you might be on your way into it or maybe already laying in it, but just several years in the future. And when things are up and to the right, you don't see what's lurking, kind of, below the surface. So, when the tide lowers, right, you see the mud, you see weird crab shells, sometimes, hopefully not, you see trash. And it's only when things recede that you see the mud that's underneath. And when you're on a victory lap and you're hitting milestones, everything's great and everybody loves their jobs and you're a hero, and as soon as things go a different way, as soon as there's layoffs, yeah, there are things, kind of, there are things, there are things lurking below the surface that were dynamics that were already happening that, because everything was going so well, you know, were harder to notice. And, you know, it's hard to be a CEO, it's hard to be a founder. I think something a lot of people don't realize is that you only know 10% of what's happening in your organization. I had hundreds of employees and ultimately everything was my responsibility, but I am held accountable for 100% of what's happening. And when something goes wrong or something's mismanaged or someone has a bad experience in the company, the assumption is that I have signed off on it, that that is how I want things to be. And these things are happening, you know, cattiness and, you know, fiefdoms and silos and duplications of effort and all the, you know, the entire spectrum of things that are no fun at a fast-growing company, I didn't know were happening until we laid people off and then they were like, "Hey, we didn't like it there." I'm like, "Okay." And some of that was totally overblown, but also anything that any employee's ever said about me or I've read, even though I don't agree with all of it, has been an opportunity for me to learn and take from that how I could be better because there's truth to almost everything.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Didn't you get an offer to sell the company completely for $400 million?
- SASophia Amoruso
Yeah, I did. I owned 80% of it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So that would've made you, you know, quick maths, I don't know, very fucking rich.
- SASophia Amoruso
Mm. Mm-hmm. Super fucking rich.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And why, why didn't you say yes?
- SASophia Amoruso
I went to my investor and I said, "What do you think about this?" And he said, "You need to ask for more." I controlled the board. I owned, uh, you know, I own the majority of the company, but I also took advice from people who I thought knew more than me, but I didn't know that my interests weren't necessarily aligned with the interests of my investor, whose interest is to, whether I'm worth it or not, have a piece of paper to show his investors that says I'm worth, instead of 350, look, they're now worth a billion. And they just make up these numbers and then they can show their people that your company's worth more. And that was his, that was in his best interest, and that's what he was giving me advice based on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you mad that he said that?
- SASophia Amoruso
I'm not mad. I'm not mad.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you wish you'd made a different decision?Is that a regret?
- SASophia Amoruso
It's a, it's a partial regret. But I also know that no deal actually happens. They're not a, a real acquisitive company. They could've tried to acquire the company. I don't even know if they've acquired anything, integrating it into their company. If I had an earn-out based on them, you know, controlling it and me trying to hit performance benchmarks, even if I had sold the company to them, who knows how it would've played out. I would've made a bunch of money. My life could've get, been miserable, but 99% of the time, deals fall through.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The, you, there's also, in those situations, a lot of, um, people trying to get into the data room, so they make an offer so they can see your numbers and what you're doing and how your business is working out, and then they pull the offer later once they've had a look in the, to the data room and due diligence-
- 1:20:18 – 1:24:04
Advice for aspiring entrepreneurs
- SASophia Amoruso
him.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is the advice you're giving now to, to women that are, and men, that are looking to start companies that are within your community, the communities you're building within your portfolio of companies now that you're an investor? Um, you know, like, I think, I, I can think of the first piece of advice that I give young founders when they come to me. I'm wondering what your, like, first piece of advice is.
- SASophia Amoruso
I think for bootstrap founders, the advice would be different. For founders in my portfolio companies who are raising venture capital, my advice would be get as far as you can before raising a single dollar, validate your idea as soon as you can with the ugliest, like, most basic, quickest thing. Your first product should be super ugly. Get it in front of people and get some idea of whether it's valuable or not before you go raise money, before you even try to market it. Talk to every customer, every potential customer, and bootstrap it as long as you can, if you can, because when investors do come in, your company's gonna be worth more than if you had raised money when you just had an idea and were asking for a check. When you do raise money, having a reasonable valuation is important, and a lot of founders optimize for price, because bigger price an investor pays, the more ownership the founder has.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The more they're worth, right?
- SASophia Amoruso
The more they're worth, and the more eventually they could make if they sell the company. But when you have a valuation that's in line with market that makes you an attractive acquisition, something someone might pay a multiple for, that 10%, say you're diluted down to 10 or 20%, but you sell your company for $500 million, you're in much better shape than raising $350 and owning 80% of it and it going to zero or whatever. So, and I think where things are right now with venture is a place that is, is close to that, and founders aren't greedy. Founders who are raising money in this market know it's really, really hard. They don't wanna be overpriced, because the people who raised money over the last few years raised at such a high valuation, these founders, nobody's gonna reinvest in them. They've blown through their money. They thought they were, you know, they're on an upswing. Their company might be doing two million in revenue, but they're, someone told them they were worth $80 million, and now nobody's gonna give them money. I've, as an angel investor, I have three of these right now, and it's like Hail Marys. Two of them have figured out how to survive. One's like, "We have another term sheet." I mean, I've been there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about the psychological advice you'd give to a founder?
- SASophia Amoruso
(laughs) Um, I would say to listen to your gut. You know, there's gonna be a lot of voices around you, and there are people who know more than you and have experience, and you should listen to them. But you should also always maintain and continue to cultivate a voice that y- when you know it should, is able to supersede any advice that anybody gives you. Um, I think it's easy to take all the advice because you're an inexperienced founder, and, um, and, and to lose touch with your intuition, and it's probably what got you to where you are as a founder without the money and without the experts. And if you just rely on the money and the experts, you're losing the thing that made what you're doing special in the first place.
- 1:24:04 – 1:25:37
Your hardest moment
- SASophia Amoruso
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which, which day was your hardest day over the last ... since you had, since you first started that store on eBay? Is there a day you look back and go, "Do you know what? That period or that day was just the worst, the hardest, the darkest"?
- SASophia Amoruso
Hmm. Honestly, and it's weird, the hardest day was when my husband left. And I don't miss him, and I don't wish we were still together. I don't really think about him. I mean, that was in 2016. But I had agreed to take a big swing in my personal life and make a huge commitment, and I thought that bumps in the road were, like, to be celebrated. I thought it was like, "Wow. Okay, you're not feeling great about things. We're gonna work through this, and we're gonna be so much better as a result of it," because I see commitments as things that go up and down, and if you're in a commitment together, you're committed to working through those things, and it all comes out in the wash because you have that level of commitment to the other person. And that wasn't the case for him, and so I, I felt like I was, like, hallucinating.... you know? I, like, went to a hotel for a week. I couldn't be in the house. It felt like a crime scene with his stuff around. And, um, yeah, three- a wh- a whole, a whole week at the Beverly Hills Hotel with three poodles is quite the scene with, um, you know, chain smoking in the courtyard in a bathrobe.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Has
- 1:25:37 – 1:31:06
Would you ever be a CEO again?
- SBSteven Bartlett
that experience put you off being a CEO of a big company?
- SASophia Amoruso
I mean, every- yeah, everything I've experienced has put me off from being a CEO of a big company. I'll never do it again.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- SASophia Amoruso
I don't- I just- I don't want to. That's not the job I want. I'm an early stage founder. I'm a master at creating brands that cut through the noise.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What happens though if one of ... You know, you're running a number of businesses now. Um, you've got your fund.
- SASophia Amoruso
We have Business Class.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What hap- Business Cla- Um, but what- but what happens- Say Business Class, what happens if it becomes globally, you know, globally successful? Then you're back to being a big CEO again though or you step out of the way?
- SASophia Amoruso
I would have to work really hard to make it that, and I would have to invest in that and hire into it. That wouldn't happen by mistake. I have one employee on Business Class. Business Class is super profitable. I launch it twice a year. It's pre-recorded. So Business Class is my entrepreneurship program that I have two cohorts a year. Um, uh, April, I'm launching it, then I launch in the fall. And it's an incredible product, but it's also something that is relatively self-led for the students. It's eight hours of video and 300 pages of worksheets and over 60 hours of interviews with me, like this, with entrepreneurs. And, you know, students get lifetime access, so, you know, they can take it over the first seven weeks, they can take it over the course of a year or the next few years. Um, but it's not something that requires a ton of my time outside promoting it twice a year, and I built it for that. I built it for that. I'm using Kajabi and Drip for email and, you know, whatever, Zapier, and a variety of tools that allow it to be relatively low lift, light on human capital. Still a lot of effort to promote, um, and something I do engage with throughout the year and do weekly calls with students and post in the lounge, which is our community-
Episode duration: 1:36:18
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