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Dr. Robert Lustig: Why ultra-processed food fuels dementia

How sugar and dopamine hijack the brain like drugs and pile up: a new Alzheimer model linking sweeteners to processed diets and mitochondrial failure.

Dr. Robert LustigguestSteven Bartletthost
Oct 2, 20251h 50mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:15

    Intro

    1. RL

      People say, "Oh, Alzheimer's is genetic." Garbage. That genetic component is only 5%, so that means 95% of Alzheimer's risk is environmental. Air pollution, microplastics, ultra-processed food. And a paper just came out showing that sweetener consumption correlates with dementia, and we think we know why.

    2. SB

      And you've not talked about this publicly yet?

    3. RL

      No. Let's talk. Dr. Robert Lustig is a world-leading sugar expert.

    4. SB

      Who's teaching the world how to reclaim their health from the industry that profits off your vulnerabilities.

    5. RL

      73% of the items in the American grocery store are poison because sugar's hidden in all the foods. For instance, there's 262 names for sugar and the food industry uses all of them, because they knew when they add it, you buy more. But the problem is, it's providing people with a dopamine hit, and that dopamine is addictive. And that's when you actually have a biochemical and medical problem. And we have data to show that ultra-processed food has been associated with dementia, diabetes, cancer, every single mental health disease. So, the question is, how can you buy healthy food and not be tempted by the bad stuff? So, first, if a food has a label, it's a warning label. The second thing, if any food has a sugar in the first three ingredients, it's dessert. And then when they go to the store, don't go hungry.

    6. SB

      And what about exercise?

    7. RL

      Well, it doesn't really impact your desire to reach for sugar. It has its own metabolic benefits, but if you think exercise is going to make you lose weight, you are deluded. And we can talk about that.

    8. SB

      So, with all of this in mind, if I've got a sugar problem, or if I've got an addiction problem, what is the remedy?

    9. RL

      I will tell you that this is one of the things I did in my obesity clinic. So, the only way you're gonna be able to fix the problem is...

    10. SB

      I see messages all the time in the comments section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe, so if you could do me a favor and double-check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show and the trajectory it's on. So, please do double-check if you've subscribed, and, uh, thank you so much. Because in a strange way, you are- you're part of our history, and you're on this journey with us, and I appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you. Dr. Robert, good to have you back.

    11. RL

      Oh, my pleasure.

  2. 2:15 – 6:10

    The Hostage Brain

    1. RL

    2. SB

      I am particularly fascinated by this term "hostage brain." I know you're in the early stages of working on a book about this subject, but for anyone that doesn't understand. See, when I look at this word "the hostage brain," I think of all the times that I've been out of control. And when I say out of control, I- I- I'm gonna let you define it, but when I say out of control, I mean there's so many things I want to do as it relates to my health, my fitness, other aspects of my life, whether it's avoiding eating the cookie at 2:00 A.M. in a hotel room somewhere, or other areas of my life where I want to have greater elements of control. What does- what do you mean by "the hostage brain?"

    3. RL

      All of us want to be in control, Steven. I mean, it's the nature of humanity. We wanna be in control. We wanna be in control of our lives. Unfortunately, many of us wanna be in control of everyone else's lives (laughs) , as we've seen play out on grand stages lately. Okay? Everyone wants to be in control, and the reason we wanna be in control is because then we can mitigate threat. When you're in control, then threat is low, because you're in control. Problem is, we're not in control (laughs) . The more in control, the more a specific area of your brain is basically glomming on, and that area of the brain is known as the amygdala. The amygdala is your fear center. It's also your 24-hour sentry, but really what the amygdala is, it's the point guard on your basketball team.

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RL

      Okay? So, it surveys the entire court, sees the offense and the defense, and has to make split-second decisions. Who's gonna score? Now, a lousy point guard takes all the shots. A good point guard passes off to the guy who has the best shot. A great point guard is gonna be able to figure out if he's gonna score or if he's gonna pass it off to somebody else. If you're in control, your level of threat goes down. But really, your control is an illusion. You really don't have control, and the more you try to exert it, the more you realize you're not in control. And what that does is that generates an enormous amount of stress and an- an more- enormous amount of pain. Now, that pain can turn inward, and we call that depression. And right now, 29% of Americans are depressed, and 4.4% of the entire world is depressed. These numbers were infinitesimal a generation ago, and they are basically, you know, just, you know, pushing up further and further. And the reason is because of this inappropriate illusion of control, and it's causing an enormous amount of pain. How do you mollify that pain? How do you basically deal with the psychological pain of lack of control that you yourself put upon yourself? Well, we have loads of ways. Cocaine, amphetamine, nicotine, alcohol, sugar, gambling, uh, uh, social media, internet gaming, uh, pornography. Pick your poison. That's dopamine. Dopamine basically provides you with a little bit of pleasure on top of a whole lot of pain. The problem is that dopamine is addictive, and so when you apply a set of pleasures to try to deal with your pain of lack of control...... that puts you into a never-ending cycle of consumption and misery. That's the hostage brain.

  3. 6:10 – 9:19

    Dopamine and the Pain of Lacking Control

    1. RL

    2. SB

      What do I need to understand about dopamine in order to... 'Cause I think sometimes awareness is step one in being able to do something about a problem that you might have. So, w- what do I need to understand about what dopamine is and what it's doing in my brain, and how it's sort of associated with addiction, to then be able to do something about it, which I, I consider step two?

    3. RL

      So, dopamine basically has two functions. The first is learning. There's no learning without dopamine. Any time you learn something, whether it's positive or negative, it's because there was a dopamine release. When you put your hand down on a hot stove when you were three years old and went, "Ah, hmm, boom, (laughs) I'm never doing that again!" Okay? That was dopamine that did that, okay? And what it did was it went to your amygdala and it rewired it. That was a rewiring of your amygdala due to the excitatory n- neurostimulus of that dopamine affecting an area of your brain called the basal lateral amygdala, okay? And it laid down and it set up a circuit, and that circuit is still working in you right now, okay? So, dopamine is the learning neurotransmitter. It can be for negative learning, it can be for positive learning. Either way.

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RL

      Dopamine is also, when it's going to another area of the brain called the nucleus accumbens, which is the reward center, that is a stimulus for reward. That is the motivation for reward. That is, in one word, foreplay. (laughs)

    6. SB

      (laughs)

    7. RL

      Okay? That is the excitement, the reason for continuing any given behavior, okay? You get both out of dopamine, okay? And in short, small bursts in the right venue, that's how we navigate life. We navigate it through learning, and we navigate it through reward. You can't do it without dopamine. Dopamine is good, unless it's bad. And as you know, everything in science is both good and bad. The problem is chronic overstimulation of any neuron leads to neuronal cell death. Dopamine is a chronic stimulator. And so, if you have chronic dopamine being released, what's gonna happen is you're gonna kill the next neuron. Now, that neuron doesn't wanna die, so it downregulates the receptors for dopamine so that it's less likely that one dopamine over here is gonna find a receptor over here to bind to, 'cause there are fewer of them. So, what this means is more and more for less and less, and we call that phenomenon tolerance. More dopamine, more tolerance, so the law of diminishing returns.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RL

      So, you get a hit, you get a rush-

  4. 9:19 – 10:26

    Tolerance Is the Start of Addiction

    1. RL

    2. SB

      Could be a sh- sugar, alcohol, whatever it might be.

    3. RL

      Pick your-

    4. SB

      Pornography, yeah.

    5. RL

      Pick your poison, doesn't matter. You get a hit, you get a rush, receptors go down. Next time you need a bigger hit to get the same rush. Receptors go down, and then you need a bigger hit, and a bigger hit, and a bigger hit, until finally, you get a huge hit to get nothing. That's called tolerance. And then, when the neurons actually start to die, that's called addiction. So, tolerance is the start of addiction. And the problem is more dopamine, more tolerance. More tolerance, more addiction.

    6. SB

      So, people that are getting addicted to unhealthy foods, and sugars, and those kinds of things, what's, like, going on in their brain?

    7. RL

      So, at first, the first time they taste it, you know, whatever it is, whether it's a, uh, a Froot Loop or a, you know, a candy corn or a, um, you know, a Frappuccino or, you know, pick your, uh, pick your poison, um, y- you get this big, you know, sh- sort of, you know, sugar bomb going off in your head. And you go, "Wow, this is great." You know? "I want some more of this."

  5. 10:26 – 11:12

    If You Depend on Anything, It's Bad

    1. RL

    2. SB

      And what is that sugar bomb?

    3. RL

      And then you down the whole Frappuccino. Okay. And what you've done is you've basically hit your nucleus accumbens with a big slug of dopamine, and you go, "Wow, that was great." And then an hour later, it's gone, and then you go, "God, I need that again." Okay? So, the first time you got it, you liked it. The second time you did it, you wanted it. And the third time, you needed it. So, that's the difference between liking and wanting and needing, okay? 'Cause liking we all do, and no one wants to take away liking. Wanting gets into problems because you can overab- abuse things. Needing is when you actually have a biochemical and medical problem.

  6. 11:12 – 13:11

    Is Dopamine Fasting the Cure?

    1. RL

    2. SB

      So, with all of this in mind, if I've got a sugar problem or if I've got an addiction problem, I'm addicted to insert poison, what is, what is the, the remedy? Just avoid it for a while? And then i- if that is the remedy, wha- what's going on in my brain? Is it fixing itself?

    3. RL

      There are many remedies, okay? And they can all be used in conjunction with each other. Uh, ultimately, the only thing that's gonna work is getting those dopamine receptors back up. Remember, I told you dopamine downregulates its own receptor. The only way you're gonna be able to fix the problem is for the dopamine receptors to come back up. There's a, uh, a, uh, a trend going on right now out in Silicon Valley you may have heard of called dopamine fasting.

    4. SB

      Ah.

    5. RL

      Okay?

    6. SB

      Yeah, I've heard the word.

    7. RL

      You, basically people lock themselves up in a hotel room (laughs) for three weeks-... (laughs) okay? Don't take a shower, (laughs) and, um, you know, basically, you know, take the TVs out of the room and, um, you know, try to commune with, uh, themselves and with nature with no stimuli, with no external stimuli, in order to bring their dopamine receptors back up. Particularly true of cocaine addicts because their dopamine receptors are way down because, after all, cocaine is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, so it's flooding the zone with dopamine. Therefore, those receptors are, you know, down in the sewer. Now, do you have to be that severe? No, of course not. But does it work? Takes three weeks. (laughs) You wanna do it for three weeks? Yeah, then it works. Other ways, you know, you can wean yourself off. You can do abstinence. The, and if you, if you can do abstinence, that's a good idea. Hard to do, especially when it's, you know, staring at you and when it's available 24/7/365 like sugar is, you know? It's everywhere. It's on every street corner,

  7. 13:11 – 15:02

    Can You Rewire Your Brain Away from Sugar Cravings?

    1. RL

      so-

    2. SB

      When I, when I fast or when I do the ketogenic diet-

    3. RL

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... I lose my apparent cravings.

    5. RL

      That's right. Exactly right.

    6. SB

      Hmm.

    7. RL

      And the reason is because no sugar in a, (laughs) in a ketogenic diet. So you're basically removing the offensive stimulus.

    8. SB

      I was so shocked. I love those cinnamon roll things, not that I ... I probably eat one every two years, but I love them nonetheless.

    9. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SB

      I'm like a big admirer even though we don't have a relationship anymore. And I, when I, I did the ketogenic diet for about ... I was on, I was four weeks in of not having any sugar and, or carbohydrates. And I walked up to this concession in Cape Town with these, all these amazing cinnamon rolls. They're like specialists. And I looked at them, and there was zero part of my brain that was interested in any of it. There was zero part of my brain, and I was like, "Wow, my brain has been like rewired or something-"

    11. RL

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      "... just because I've removed sugar from my diet."

    13. RL

      Yup.

    14. SB

      Yeah.

    15. RL

      It happens. Uh, it, but it takes a while.

    16. SB

      Yeah.

    17. RL

      It's not something that, you know, you can turn on and off, 'kay?

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. RL

      It takes a- a- a fair amount of time. I will tell you that, um, you know, this is one of the things I did in my obesity clinic, you know, on a daily basis, was getting people off their sugar addiction.

    20. SB

      How did you do that?

    21. RL

      And sometimes you have to basically babysit 'em. You have to, you know, work with them and with, work with their parents in order to, you know, basically turn over the entire pantry, because the sugar's hidden in all the foods, you know? I mean, it's, it's, uh ... There are 262 names for sugar and the food industry uses all of 'em. This is why we are trying to get sugar addiction and ultra-processed food addiction codified by the WHO and by the American Psychiatric Association as a bonafide, um, diagnosis so that we can get remediation and ther- therapy for people.

  8. 15:02 – 21:15

    The Shocking Link Between Dementia and Diet Products

    1. RL

    2. SB

      One of the things that was one of the most popular parts of our conversation last time, Robert, was there was a section where we talked about the different types of sugar and diet Cokes and-

    3. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      ... Coke Zeros and all these kinds of things.

    5. RL

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      Wh- you know, I, if I ... I'm, I can see a couple of cans on the desk over there where, where Jack is, um, in the darkness that I can vaguely see. And these cans of fizzy drink, they all have some kind of sugar substitute.

    7. RL

      Yup. Yeah.

    8. SB

      Are those sugar substitutes harmless?

    9. RL

      No. (laughs) Of course not. Um, a paper just came out like three days ago in Annals of Neurology, uh, basically showing that, uh, uh, n- non-nutritive sweetener consumption, so diet sweetener consumption, uh, correlates with dementia. And we think we know why.

    10. SB

      Why?

    11. RL

      Reactive oxygen species, so oxygen radicals, uh, little chemicals that are given off from various substances that cause changes in energy metabolism in cells and also cause damage in cells, ROSs, reactive oxygen species. The famous ones are aspartame and sucralose. Now, do monk fruit extract, do stevia, does allulose also cause reactive oxygen species? I very specifically looked for data on those, could not find it. But for aspartame and for sucralose, the two biggest ones that are available today and the ones that are used in a lot of diet drinks, huge amounts of ROS generation.

    12. SB

      ROS?

    13. RL

      So, uh, reactive oxygen species generation. So anything that generates ROSs contributes to, um, dementia.

    14. SB

      Is the evidence strong at this stage?

    15. RL

      Yeah, it's pretty darn strong. I'm actually giving a talk about this next week in San Diego.

    16. SB

      I heard you've got a, a new theory on the causes of Alzheimer's dementia that's somewhat linked-

    17. RL

      This is it.

    18. SB

      This is it?

    19. RL

      This is it. Yeah.

    20. SB

      Can you explain that to me? And you've, you've not talked about this-

    21. RL

      Mm, I'll try.

    22. SB

      ... publicly yet. You're- you're- you're-

    23. RL

      No, not yet.

    24. SB

      You're set to talk about it in a couple of days, I hear.

    25. RL

      Uh, let me, uh, take it back a step, 'kay? There is this organelle inside our brains called mitochondria. You've heard of mitochondria.

    26. SB

      Yeah.

    27. RL

      For the, for your audience, mitochondria are the little energy-burning factories inside each of our cells. What they do is they take food energy and turn it into the chemical energy that your cell can actually use to power itself, 'kay? And that chemical energy has a name. It's called ATP. Now, if you took biology in high school, you've heard of ATP, (laughs) adenosine triphosphate. The energy is in the phosphate bonds. So ATP will give up its energy and go to ADP, diphosphate, which will then give up its energy and go to AMP, monophosphate, which will then finally go to adenosine. And adenosine binds to the adenosine receptor and makes you go to sleep.

    28. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. RL

      By the way, that's where caffeine works. It blocks the adenosine receptor, keeping you awake so that the adenosine can't bind to the adenosine receptor. Okay? So, that ATP is the currency of the cell. That's what makes the cell run. Anything that depletes ATP is gonna put the cell at risk.

    30. SB

      Mm-hmm.

  9. 21:15 – 22:26

    Cortisol's Link to Dementia

    1. RL

      Okay, that's step one. Now step two. There's this stuff called cortisol. Cortisol comes from stress. Cortisol comes from sleep deprivation. Cortisol comes from exogenous glucocorticoids, like steroids being given to people for, you know, autoimmune disease or for, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh other, uh, uh, ill- illnesses, okay? That cortisol causes neurons to increase in, um, metabolism, causes them to burn energy faster, okay? So now you have an increased ATP utilization. So you have a decreased ATP generation, now you have an increased ATP utilization. Now you've got an energy crisis inside each cell. Now your ATP can't keep up with the needs of the cell. And when that happens, now you've got symptoms, whether it's brain fog or irritability or all the way to frank depression. Okay, now, step three.

  10. 22:26 – 25:19

    Proteins

    1. RL

      There are these proteins inside each neuron called amyloid precursor peptide, APP, okay? It's a normal protein in all cells. Every cell in your body has APP. It needs to stay in solution, and in order for it to stay in solution, it h- energy has to be applied to it in order to keep it in solution. The minute the ATP in the cell goes down, they come out of solution and they start forming, um, aggregates, which we call plaques.

    2. SB

      Yeah.

    3. RL

      Okay? And those plaques damage the cell, which then start an inflammatory process, uh, in the cells, uh, next door called the microglia in order to clean up the process. And now you've got plaques and an inflammation, and now you've got neuronal cell death. That's dementia. So, it starts with an ATP energy crisis, moves through plaque and inflammation to generate neuronal cell death. Well, this is problematic, to say the least. And by the way, anything that generates ROS's has been associated with Alzheimer's. Anything that increases ATP utilization, like stress, glucocorticoids, fever, autoimmune disease, also increases Alzheimer's. So anything that increases step one, anything that increases step two ultimately leads to increased step three and Alzheimer's.

    4. SB

      So s- to simplify this in a couple of sentences for someone that has no scientific understanding, and we're gonna have to cut a c- few corners here scientifically in order to, to, for them to unders- have a framework to understand it-

    5. RL

      Understand.

    6. SB

      ... how would you give me some sort of an analogy for it?Maybe in the context of, I guess, a petrol station and a car.

    7. RL

      Yeah. So, I mean, if we're basically doing petrol, we're talking energy only.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. RL

      Okay? So bottom line, your car runs on petrol.

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RL

      Okay? The petrol comes in, that's the glucose, and the engine, okay, powers pistons, and the pistons then power an axle-

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RL

      ... and the axle then powers wheels, and you go.

    14. SB

      Yeah.

    15. RL

      Okay? But there are a lot of things that have to go right for all of those things to happen. Like, for instance, your energy, the, the, the gasoline has to get into the engine in the first place. What if you have carbon deposits on your intake manifolds? And if you have a problem with any one of those steps, you're gonna end up with a jalopy instead of a sports car.

    16. SB

      I mean, that's what we're seeing in the United States. Over 7 million Americans

  11. 25:19 – 28:43

    Is Alzheimer's Genetic or Environmental?

    1. SB

      live with Alzheimer's, and this is expected to double to almost 13 million in the coming decades.

    2. RL

      Indeed.

    3. SB

      It... 'Cause-

    4. RL

      We haven't solved the problem.

    5. SB

      That's the mechanism. What is, what is the cause?

    6. RL

      Right. So, we know, we know that the cause is environmental. Now, people say, "Oh, Alzheimer's is genetic." Garbage. There is a genetic component to Alzheimer's, I'm not arguing that there is.

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. RL

      Okay? There's this thing called ApoE4, and if you have two copies of ApoE4 on your genome, your risk for getting Alzheimer's is nine times the general population. That is absolutely true. I don't disagree with that. So, ApoE4 is not a good thing (laughs) , I'm not arguing that. Once upon a time in, you know, uh, evolution a- having two copies of ApoE4 was good because it meant you got fat up to your brain pretty fast. But we don't need that right now. That's kind of a, a, an o- old news kind of p- o- of issue. People who th- have double doses of ApoE4 are at higher risk, there is absolutely no question about that, but they can mitigate that risk if they change their diet, okay? They can eat a v- very low fat diet and res- and improve their risk down to the general population. Okay? Everything else in Alzheimer's is not genetic. By the way, that genetic component is only 5% of all Alzheimer's, so that means 95% of Alzheimer's risk is environmental. Now, the question is, what in the environment? Well, air pollution, ionizing radiation, microplastics, okay? There's nothing you can do about any one of those three. That's baked into the cake. You can't do anything about those today. What other things? Uh, sleep-disordered breathing, medications, ultra-processed food, okay? What about ultra-processed food? Fructose, my favorite, you know, hobby horse (laughs) , you know, the sweet molecule in sugar. Low omega-3s, so no, you know, fish, uh, eggs, chicken. Uh, lack of fiber, 'cause fiber suppresses inflammation. Presence of emulsifiers, okay? B vitamins, lack of B vitamins, s- particularly B6, B12, folate, okay? Those things are all associated with an increase in reactive oxygen species. You can manage those, you can mitigate those, thereby increasing mitochondrial function, increasing ATP generation, and preventing that cellular energy crisis so that you don't end up behind the eight-ball and you don't lose your neurons.

    9. SB

      When people t-

  12. 28:43 – 32:55

    Ketones

    1. SB

      t- tell me that Alzheimer's is associated with having a sort of energy crisis in the brain-

    2. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      ... I'm increasingly hearing people talk about ketones. It's just, it's remarkable the improvement in cognitive performance that I feel when I'm fasted or I'm in a ketogenic diet, whereas if I'm in a, if I've been eating a lot of, uh, carbohydrates-

    4. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      ... or sugar, it's like my brain is, like, like, backfiring.

    6. RL

      Fog. Yeah, brain fog.

    7. SB

      Yeah, it's, like, stumbling over itself.

    8. RL

      I'm not surprised. You know, the, the food industry tells you, "Well, carbohydrates are energy." Actually, that's not true. Carbohydrates inhibit energy production.

    9. SB

      How do you mean?

    10. RL

      So, there's this thing called a bomb calorimeter and there's this thing called a mitochondria.

    11. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. RL

      They are not the same. A bomb calorimeter, you throw food into the bomb calorimeter, it explodes and it gives off heat. Okay, and this, you know, captures the heat, measures the heat, and that's how we know, for instance, fat burns at nine calories per gram, protein burns at four calories per gram, carbohydrate burns at four calories per gram, which is why fat is more energy-dense than protein or carbohydrate, which is how we all determine that fat made you fat.

    13. SB

      And the bomb calorimeter is also how they determine if a bag of crisps, or chips, whatever you call it here, is 200 calories because if you put them in there-

    14. RL

      Exactly.

    15. SB

      ... it will release 200 calories of energy.

    16. RL

      Right. 'Cause a calorie is that amount of energy that raises one gram of water one degree centigrade.

    17. SB

      Okay.

    18. RL

      So, it is a measure of physics.

    19. SB

      Okay. So it's-

    20. RL

      It's a measure of heat generation.

    21. SB

      Okay.

    22. RL

      Okay?Mitochondria are not bomb calorimeters (laughs) . They are not capturing heat. They are giving off heat. They are capturing ATP. No bomb calorimeter captures ATP. Mitochondria capture and generate ATP. Mm-hmm. Now, turns out 35 to 40% of what mitochondria generate turns out to be heat. That's why you have a body temperature. (laughs) Mm-hmm. It's from that. And so you have nev- you will never have a 100% energy efficient mitochondrion 'cause if you did, 'kay, you would have a temp- body temperature of, you know, room temperature, okay, and you'd be dead. (laughs) That's not the way it works. Bottom line, that transfer of food energy to chemical energy loses energy in the process, 'kay? The bomb calorimeter can't tell the difference, but your mitochondria can. Ultimately, it's how efficient are your mitochondria at converting food energy to ATP. The bomb calorimeter can't tell you anything about that. So, these two phenomena, you know, the concept of calories as fuel and the concept of calories as generators of ATP have really very little to do with each other. And it turns out that there are individual things in food, the famous one is fructose, but there are others, lectins and others, that actually inhibit the mitochondrial generation of ATP. So, they actually inhibit your ability to turn food energy into chemical energy. If that's the case, even if they have calories per gram in a bomb calorimeter, if they're interfering with mitochondrial function, are they food? What is the definition of food? Substrate that contributes either to growth or burning of an organism. Well, I just told you, fructose actually inhibits burning. Turns out fructose also inhibits growth. It inhibits cortical bone growth, trabecular bone growth, cancellous bone growth. Bottom line, people who eat ultra-processed food end up shorter. We have the data for that. So, if a substrate that passes your lips does not contribute to growth and does not contribute to burning, is it a food?

  13. 32:55 – 34:13

    Ultra-Processed Foods Are Poison

    1. RL

      I guess not. I guess not. What is it then? It's a poison. And how much of our diet do you think is poison, do you think? A fair amount. Ultra-processed food is loaded with them. Real food is not loaded with them. They're- you can still find them, but not loaded with them. Ultra-processed food has, in my opinion, 'kay, five things wrong with it. Too much sugar, which poisons your mitochondria. Not enough fiber, which is necessary to suppress inflammation. Not enough omega-3 fatty acids, which are necessary to build your brain and conduct neurotransmission. Too many emulsifiers, which leads to gut inflammation and therefore systemic inflammation. And then we can throw on top of that the food dyes and food additives which are mutagenic because they're, you know, petroleum based. That's ultra-processed food. Ultra-processed food has been associated with every single one of these diseases, including every single mental health disease, especially dementia, as we now have seen. Ultra-processed food is specifically associated with dementia. And even diet sweeteners are associated with dementia through this reactive oxygen species pathway. The sugar

  14. 34:13 – 39:28

    Reengineering Ultra-Processed Food to Be Healthy

    1. RL

      industry can't be your biggest fan. (laughs) They're not. I'm trying to help them though, you know? I am trying to help them. Last year, um, not too long after we had our, uh, previous, uh, uh, uh, session, uh, I was the, uh, keynote speaker at the fourth International Sugar Reduction Summit in Atlanta, Georgia. You know, Daniel in the lion's den. (laughs) And, you know, like, why would they invite me? I am, you know, I'm their conscience. I s- I told them, I, I said, "I don't wanna be your enemy, I wanna be your conscience. I want you to do the right thing, 'kay?" Ultimately, look, ultra-processed food's not going away. As much as I would like it to, it's not gonna go away, and I'm not even sure we want it to go away 'cause we gotta feed 10 billion people by the year 2050 and we're not gonna have enough land and ocean to do it. Ultimately, ultra-processed food is here to stay. It is baked into the cake. But the question is, can we make ultra-processed food healthy? Right now, they're not. Right now, what's going on in the U.S., you know, uh, food industry, is doing the exact opposite. It's making food disastrously disease producing. The question is, could you change that? And the answer is, yes you can. In fact, we've done it. We have been doing it. Um, five years ago, I started working with an offshore food company. Gratis, by the way. No money changed hands. And so they came to me and they said, "Look, we know we're part of the problem. We wanna be part of the solution. We know that Kuwait has an 18% diabetes rate and an 80% obesity rate, and we don't wanna be the reason, we wanna be the help. Can you help us figure out how to make metabolically healthy processed food?" So, I convened a, uh, scientific advisory team of five members and we worked for the next three years, looked at every single-... process, every procedure, every, uh, vendor, every ingredient, every product. Sent them all for biochemical analysis to figure out what's going into the food, what's coming out of the food. Is the food metabolically healthy? What has to be done? How does it need to be re-engineered to lead to something that is metabolically healthy? And we came up with a set of principles which we published in Frontiers in Nutrition in 2023. We call it the metabolic matrix, and we da- basically collapsed it down to nine words. Three clauses, nine words. Protect the liver, feed the gut, support the brain. That's it. Those three things. Anything that passes your lips that protects the liver, feeds the gut, supports the brain, is healthy. Whether it's ultra-processed or not. Anything that passes your lips that does none of the three is poison, whether it's ultra-processed or not. So, it's actually not the ultra-processing. It's whether or not it contributes to metabolic health. So, then we started re-engineering products on, in the KDD line and they have 180 items in their portfolio. We have re-engineered 10% of them, 18 products, to become metabolically healthy. And we have tested them on people in Kuwait to demonstrate their metabolic benefit.

    2. SB

      What is the-

    3. RL

      And they are on the shelves now.

    4. SB

      But isn't there, is there a trade-off there because those products might sell worse now that they've, you've removed the stuff that makes them addictive?

    5. RL

      No. So, we didn't tell the public that we were doing this. We just did it. And they just reint-, they just introduced them to the public and didn't tell them.

    6. SB

      It-

    7. RL

      And they didn't miss a friggin' beat in terms of sales and in terms of profits.

    8. SB

      But I mean-

    9. RL

      Don't tell 'em and it works.

    10. SB

      Logically though, it, it, the, the bad stuff often makes the food more addictive.

    11. RL

      And that's why this is so cool. It didn't change consumption and it didn't change profits. And that's what they care about. Ultimately, they don't care if consumption changes as long as profits don't. This can be done by other food industries. We're trying to get them on board. And, you know, I have lots to say about RFK, but he has at least, uh, uh, convened a discussion on what's wrong with ultra-processed food, and we're hoping to be able to enter that, uh, enter that conversation.

  15. 39:28 – 44:53

    What Needs to Change in the USA

    1. RL

    2. SB

      RFK is the h- health leader, I guess-

    3. RL

      Well-

    4. SB

      ... Trump, Trump-

    5. RL

      ... Head of, Head of Health and Human Services here in the United States.

    6. SB

      You have a lot to say about him.

    7. RL

      I have boatloads to say about him. Most of which, uh, you can't print.

    8. SB

      (laughs) What's, what's your general opinion of, of him in his role and what he's doing, et cetera?

    9. RL

      I've been asked to serve in this administration four times and I've said no each time. And it's not because I don't want to be. I do. But it's because my opinion and his opinion would basically get me thrown out after about five seconds.

    10. SB

      What's the difference?

    11. RL

      I wouldn't last, I wouldn't last a, a, a... I wouldn't last a second.

    12. SB

      What's the difference in opinion?

    13. RL

      All right. Five, RFK has five buckets in his portfolio. Food, I'm on board. Pharma transparency, I'm on board. Chemicals in the environment, I'm on board. Water fluoridation, I'm partially on board. You could get the fluoride out of the water, but first you got to get the sugar out of the food. You can't just take the fluoride out of the water or everybody will get Mountain Dew mouth all at the same time. And that would be a complete and utter disaster. It has to be done in a coordinated public health PSA-driven campaign with everyone on board, including the food industry and the medical profession and government.

    14. SB

      And to explain that, there's fluoride in the water in the United States because there's so much sugar.

    15. RL

      There's so much sugar in the food. You wouldn't need sh- uh, fluoride in the water if you didn't have sugar in the food.

    16. SB

      Just explain this. So-

    17. RL

      So-

    18. SB

      ... the United States put fluoride in the water.

    19. RL

      To stop dental caries.

    20. SB

      Which protects people's teeth.

    21. RL

      Which protects people's teeth. The point is that only half the countries in the world have fluoride in the water. The others don't. And the reason is 'cause they don't have sugar in the food. The only reason you need to put the fluoride in the water is because the sugar in the food causes the dental caries. Now, the fluoride reduces the, uh, uh, prevalence of dental caries by about 30 to 40%.

    22. SB

      Dental caries?

    23. RL

      Cavities.

    24. SB

      Cavities. Yeah.

    25. RL

      By about 30 to 40%. Now, the problem with fluoride is at high dose, it can be a neurotoxin. Now, the goal is for, uh, public fluoridation to stay way below that. Now, do they? Not really. Sometimes they go above. So, normal fluoride concentrations when you're doing it as a, uh, you know, public health effort should be between 0.3 and 0.9 parts per million. Sometimes it goes up to 1.5 parts per million. At 1.5, it becomes a neurotoxin. So, it's purely a dose issue. But one of the reasons why people are screaming about getting fluoride out of the water is because it can be a neurotoxin. It's not supposed to be in doses that are appropriate, but, you know-People don't look at the data. Point is, you could get the fluoride out of the water, but if you got the fluoride out of the water and didn't take the sugar out of the food, you know, we'd have more dental caries, we'd have more anesthesia's, we'd have more teeth pulling, we'd have more sepsis, we'd have more dental abscesses, we'd have more soldiers dying in the field. It's a matter of national security. So, you can't just do it. It requires a, you know, coordinated, uh, uh, uh, effort.

    26. SB

      Is there anything else you disagree with him on?

    27. RL

      And then finally, bucket number five (laughs) . Vaccines. I am a pediatrician. I am not a vaccine expert, to be sure. I am not an immunologist, to be sure. But I am a pediatrician and I know a lot about vaccines and I know a lot about the infectious diseases that those vaccines were set up to basically prevent. And I have taken care of all eight of the diseases that we have child immunizations for; mumps, measles, rubella, diptheria, pertussis, tetanus, H. flu, polio. I've taken care of all eight of those, and I will tell you right now, when I take care of those, it's because of someone who didn't get vaccinated. And when I take care of those, okay, the chances are 90% that that kid's gonna die. RFK is not. RFK says he can s- tell whether someone has mitochondrial function- dysfunction just by looking at them. I'm a mitochondriologist. I can't. Ultimately, RFK's view of vaccines is, um, shall we say, his and his alone, and it's not shared by the medical community. Um, and I will not be part and parcel to 3,000 measles deaths because of a, uh, a, a blanket, uh, disdain for, uh, vaccines and vaccine technology, which has worked beautifully to save 154 million people on this earth over the last 50 years.

  16. 44:53 – 51:43

    RFK and Vaccination in the USA

    1. SB

      Yeah. You know, I don't, I don't talk about this stuff a lot, um, but I was str- ... I'm pretty sure at least one of my siblings was saved by v- vaccination when we were in Africa and we had, uh, malaria. I think, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm accurate here, I had malaria, my brothers had malaria-

    2. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      ... and I think I was the one that didn't get the malaria vaccine, and then I ended up in hospital at a, as a, at a very young age with, with malaria. I was, like, hallucinating and stuff like that, um...

    4. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      And obviously, as a, as someone that was born in Africa-

    6. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SB

      ... I ... y- I think you probably have a clearer understanding of the role that vaccines can play in, in good health. You know, it's, it's, it's, um, it's quite concerning because wh- when you speak to any scient- like, all of ... the majority of the leading scientists, they're very extremely pro s- pro-vaccine. But we-

    8. RL

      We've seen both sides. We've seen what happens when there's no vaccine and we've seen what happens when there is vaccine.

    9. SB

      And this is not to say that there can be side effects to vaccines. Um, the vaccine manufacturers and scientists talk about those side effects as well, but the-

    10. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SB

      ... the thing that I think people should focus on is the net, um, good that vaccines have done for, for the last centuries in eradicating illnesses and avoiding, um, disease. And my concern-

    12. RL

      So-

    13. SB

      ... just to close off on this point is, my concern is if there is to be some kind of outbreak-

    14. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    15. SB

      ... any time soon, we're in such a cloud of misinformation around vaccines, that I, I worry people might make the wrong decisions. Interestingly-

    16. RL

      Indeed.

    17. SB

      ... there was a measles outbreak in Texas recently-

    18. RL

      Yes.

    19. SB

      ... and RFK, at one point, did eventually prompt the federal deployment of MMMR- MMR vaccines and expressed support for them, um, because there was a, a big outbreak of measles in, in Texas very recently.

    20. RL

      I'm gonna tell you something now that I have not talked about in public. I had a, a half an hour with RFK on the phone, one-on-one, back in December of 2024, after the Trump, uh, uh, election, and RFK was starting to convene his, uh, team. And I was asked to join it. And so I got a half hour with him, and I will relate to you now for your public so that they understand what that conversation entailed. Basically two threads. By the way, we were supposed to talk about food. We didn't talk about food. We talked about vaccines (laughs) . And here were the two threads. First thread, "There are three papers in the medical literature that say that vaccines do more harm than good." And he quoted them at me, and I wrote them down, and I went and looked them up afterwards. And indeed, they say what he says they said, that it's unconscionable that vaccines do more harm than good and we're giving them to newborns. Now, it is true that those three papers do say this. There are 50,000 that say opposite, okay? Second thing he said, "A woman gives birth to a healthy baby. That healthy baby gets a shot under the skin, and now that baby is not healthy anymore." That's a tort, a legal tort, okay? And, you know, in fact, you could argue that that is a, in fact, a legal tort because, uh, you know, duty, d- uh, uh, lig- negligence, you know, all the way down to damages.... "What's the recommend- what's the, uh, the remedy for tort?" I said, "Lawsuit." He says, "Right. But that mom can't sue because of the Vaccine Indemnification Act of 1986. So that mom basically has a damaged baby and no recourse. That's unconstitutional." Those were the two threads of our half-hour discussion. Now, everything he said is absolutely true and irrelevant. They demonstrate, basically, confirmation bias. And he's a lawyer. He believes in precedent. I'm a doctor, I believe in probability. There's always a risk-benefit ratio, unless you're a lawyer, in which case there's only risk. And that's how he sees the world. He sees the world as risk. I don't. I wouldn't have lasted five seconds.

    21. SB

      I think we're both on the same page in terms of making sure people have the right information as it relates to probability. We, you know, everything we do in our life is a factor of probability, whether, uh, wh- I, I got in a taxi to come here this morning. Uh, I, I understood the probability of that taxi crashing into another car, but I decided to get in the car and come here anyway.

    22. RL

      We all deal with these, you know, risks every single day.

    23. SB

      I want to say on this, on this point of, of vaccines that, um, there's obviously, it's almost b- it's become quite a political issue. And there's two, there's two sides and, you know, one side, which is more of the RFK side, is incredibly skeptical-

    24. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    25. SB

      ... and, and they have their opinion. Then there's the other side which tends to be dominated more by the science, scientists, if... I interview scientists a lot, so I know that pretty much everyone I've interviewed that's a scientist would agree that-

    26. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    27. SB

      ... um, w- you know, there's, there are side effects, but-

    28. RL

      Yeah.

    29. SB

      ... net, net, vaccines-

    30. RL

      Right. It's, it's, uh-

  17. 51:43 – 55:14

    Important Message About Where You Get Your Information

    1. SB

      They should in- they should include places like... I'd recommend checking out a website called Consensus. I have no affiliation with them. But Consensus allows you to type in a question you have about health, vaccines, whatever it might be, and it shows you what the, um, sort of peer-reviewed studies say, um, and what the consensus is. So for example, I was, uh, I was using the website a couple of days ago to try and understand something.

    2. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      And I typed in, "Does this particular, is this particular thing healthy or unhealthy?" And it comes up with this bar, the team will show it on the screen-

    4. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      ... and it shows you how much of the scientific research supports that idea. So it said like 70% of the scientific research says it was positive, it said 25% said it was neutral, and 5% said, "We kind of don't know," or, um, or negative.

    6. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SB

      And I think that's a really great tool because there's so much information out there and there's so many studies and there's one study that says this and another that says this. So using tools like that I think is a much better way to make your health decisions than podcasts like this or, um, TIKTOKs or Instagrams or Tweets. Because another thing I want to say is you might not know this, I'm just speaking directly to my audience here, but you're currently in an algorithmic echo chamber.

    8. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SB

      And if you, and if you wanna know what I mean by that, is the algorithm that you have on any of your feeds has been personalized to give you more of the stuff that either scares you, frightens you, concerns you, et cetera. And if you, if you wanna prove this, go and ask your best friend or someone else, a member of the public, to look at their feed. Uh, I had a really, uh... I remember probably two years ago I asked my best friend if I could just look at his Twitter feed and it was completely different from mine.

    10. RL

      Yes.

    11. SB

      For one, there was no Manchester United in it, it was all Liverpool. But then all of the information was completely different as well. And so we're living in these echo chambers where misinformation or s- you know, things we believe is being reinforced positively or negatively. So you need a strategy for information, especially as it relates to health.

    12. RL

      I couldn't agree more. The fact of the matter is, these algorithms are designed to keep you engaged. They are not designed to keep you informed.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. RL

      It's just that simple. Um, the other problem, of course, is confirmation bias. If you have confirmation bias, you will only seek out the information that reconfirms your bias.

    15. SB

      And that's what's about to happen in the-

    16. RL

      And that's, that's what we didn't used to have, but that's what we have now.

    17. SB

      That's what's about to play out in the comments section whenever we talk about subjects like, like vaccines is, um, there'll be a group of people who have their own opinions on it, and you're entitled to your own opinion, and they will go to war to con- confirm and prove that opinion. And there'll be another group of people that have a different opinion and they'll go to war to confirm that opinion. What I, what I love, and hopefully what I think my audience understand me for, is I try and s- I try and remain open-minded and that's like a really fucking hard thing to do these days.

    18. RL

      It's hard to do. Yeah.

    19. SB

      I, I saw a journalist the other day, they said-

    20. RL

      Okay.

    21. SB

      ... they were trying to place me politically and they said, "We think Stephen is apolitical." And I think that's probably an apt description of my opinions because I have-

    22. RL

      I would consider that a high compliment.

    23. SB

      It's an amazing compliment. I have views, but I don't sign up to any particular...... like cult (laughs) is the way I'd describe it. And, and you know you're in a cult when your views, 99% represent the person who's also in the cult, because logically, y- that should never be the case.

    24. RL

      That should never be the case. I agree. Um, you know, cults are a part and parcel of, uh, society, unfortunately.

    25. SB

      I've watched so many entrepreneurs

  18. 55:14 – 56:16

    Ads

    1. SB

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  19. 56:16 – 1:01:11

    Practical Steps to Fix Your Addiction

    1. SB

      with the person that's listening right now, and they have me and you in their ears, and they know that sugar is bad. They know ultra-processed food is bad. They still are struggling with a little bit of fat, other sort of diseases. They're probably on the, in, on the trajectory to some form of chronic disease, maybe Alzheimer's, maybe dementia, maybe a form of cancer.

    2. RL

      Yeah. Yeah.

    3. SB

      What do we ha- if we're talking direct, let's name her or him. Let's call her Jenny. Jenny's listening right now. Jenny and Dave, they're both sat there, they're the average American. What do we say to Jenny and Dave to get them to change their lives?

    4. RL

      The first thing that you have to say to them is, "Who are you? Do you know? Do you know who you are?" Because if they don't know who they are, then nothing else is gonna matter. They have to be comfortable in their own skin, and they're not. The reason that they have glommed onto ultra-processed food is it's providing them with a dopamine hit, and it's probably the only thing that even remotely gives them pleasure. And if that's all the pleasure they get in their lives, you're never gonna fix it, 'cause that's all they've got. So the question is, sorting your priorities at the, at the, at the individual level, what's important to you? What's o- of primary importance? Love, relationships. What's of secondary importance? Pleasure, food, drugs. Okay? If you don't have any of the love, relationships, stability in your life, there's no amount of food or drugs that's going to be able to make up for that. So who are you? What is it that really matters to you? And until you answer that question honestly and affirmatively, you're never gonna get past this.

    5. SB

      So can, let, let me role-play as Jenny and Dave. You've asked me who am I. I am 30 years old, and, uh, I work this job. I don't, uh, job's okay. I, I don't love it. It's not lighting me up. I'm single. I'm living in this, this city. And yeah, I'm just, you know, tr- trundling along, kind of like on the, on the treadmill of life.

    6. RL

      And how much stress are you under?

    7. SB

      A lot of stress.

    8. RL

      A whole lot of stress.

    9. SB

      Every time I open my phone, it's stressful, my emails-

    10. RL

      Right.

    11. SB

      ... my work. There's this thing going on with this person. I think my mom's got a problem with this thing, and her health is deteriorating.

    12. RL

      So imagine what that's doing to the ATP in your brain.

    13. SB

      What's it doing?

    14. RL

      It's depleting it like crazy. Number one, you have mitochondrial dysfunction from all the shit you ate and from the, you know, u- unfortunately, from the, uh, air pollution you've been breathing, and from the microplastics, you know, that have basically taken over your brain. 1/200th of your brain right now, Stephen, is microplastics, whether (laughs) you like it or not. So Jenny and Dave probably have more, okay? And you eat well. They don't. All right? So here we are. This is, this is the s- the substrate. This is the base. And the question is, how are we going to improve their ATP generation? How are we going to improve their mitochondrial function? How are we gonna get those, their neurons to start responding properly? That's the question.

    15. SB

      And do you aim at stress as part of the solution?

    16. RL

      Yes, of course. You have to. How can you not? Let me give you another, uh, cli- quick clinical vignette. Recently, I, uh, had the opportunity to have a, an extended conversation with, um, a hero of mine, Dr. Vivek Murthy, who was the former surgeon general of the United States. And we were in London together, and I finally sat him down, and I said, "You know, Vivek, I love your, you know, uh, e- espousing of love, that we ultimately need to love each other to get over these, uh, s- systemic societal travails, that we, that, that love is what's missing." Here's the problem. You can't love if your brain is inflamed.

    17. SB

      You can't love if you-

    18. RL

      You can't love if your brain is inflamed. Now, of course, the reason for the inflamed brain is the ultra-processed food and all the things we talked about, the reactive oxygen species, the cortisol, et cetera, that we talked about before.

  20. 1:01:11 – 1:03:55

    If You Have an Inflamed Brain, You Can't Love

    1. RL

    2. SB

      So are you saying people that are metabolically unhealthy, that are... have inflamed brains, that are under stress, have a reduced ability to love?

    3. RL

      Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. They can't love themselves and they can't love anyone around them.

    4. SB

      Explain the science there.

    5. RL

      Serotonin.

    6. SB

      What is serotonin?

    7. RL

      Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is necessary for eudaimonia, for being able to be content. Oxytocin is the love neurotransmitter, the reproduction neurotransmitter, the safety neurotransmitter, okay? The cortisol causes, uh, the, uh, methylation of the oxytocin receptor, so now the oxytocin can't work, so you can't feel safe. And the serotonin is necessary to basically suppress that inflammation in the amygdala that's actually causing the buckshot that we... you know, the, uh, the inability to surgically strike like we talked about before, being that lousy point guard. So, I said to him, "You can't love if your brain is inflamed." And he thanked me and he... You know, I thought that was the end of that and I'm not gonna bother him anymore. Two weeks ago, I got an email from Vivek saying, "I've thought about what you said and I'm halfway through your book, and let's talk."

    8. SB

      You can't love if your brain is inflamed. I was just looking at a study that says high cortisol levels in a mom during pregnancy can affect the baby's oxytocin receptors, meaning-

    9. RL

      Exactly.

    10. SB

      ... they'll feel less safe.

    11. RL

      Exactly right. And it's epigenetic. It happens even before birth.

    12. SB

      I'm trying to play out... So, I'm trying to form a couple of hypotheses here around what this might mean in practice. So, I mean, in the case of the mother, if the mother was under a lot of stress that resulted in cortisol, then the baby's oxytocin receptors, which are the bonding chemical of, of hu- within humans, the bonding hormone, is gonna be depleted. So if I had a really stressful mother during, um, my conception, whatever that-

    13. RL

      During pregnancy.

    14. SB

      During pregnancy.

    15. RL

      Or gestation, yeah.

    16. SB

      There's a probability, there's a causal probability that I might be less good at bonding with people.

    17. RL

      There we are. That's exactly what we're saying.

    18. SB

      But I guess, also, that can take place after pregnancy where it's-

    19. RL

      Yeah, I mean, it, it-

    20. SB

      ... kind of, chronically stressed.

    21. RL

      ... it's a, it's a continual process. The question is can it be undone? And the answer is yes, but with, uh, a lot of work. And you have to have the baseline substrate to be

  21. 1:03:55 – 1:07:49

    Are Our Diets Making Us Lonely?

    1. RL

      able to do it.

    2. SB

      There's a bit of, um... What's the, what's the term when something becomes a little bit self-fulfilling where it kind of-

    3. RL

      Tautology?

    4. SB

      Uh, what I'm saying is if someone's lonely-

    5. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      ... extremely lonely-

    7. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... and they are in a single apartment alone, which is increasingly a lot of people-

    9. RL

      Yes.

    10. SB

      ... then, th- I've read that-

    11. RL

      Basements, basements. (laughs)

    12. SB

      Yeah, well, but even in, even in major cities like London and New York, et cetera, so many people live in a little shoebox alone.

    13. RL

      Yup, yes.

    14. SB

      Um, and I saw the studies that show the average person used to have X amount of friends to turn to in a time of crisis. Now they have, on average, it says, like, one or zero. So loneliness is up. And then I also saw some research that said when people are lonely, their body goes into a state where they sleep worse, they're more stressed, they're, they're more, uh, bitter-

    15. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SB

      ... to people.

    17. RL

      Yes.

    18. SB

      And I can't remember the term for that, but it's like s- it's like this heightened sensitivity. And the thesis is that once upon a time, in an evolutionary context, if you were... if you lost your tribe, you would have to be more on edge to survive.

    19. RL

      That's your amygdala.

    20. SB

      And if that's the case then, it means that... it would suggest that if you're lonely, you're higher stress-

    21. RL

      Yes.

    22. SB

      ... but if you're higher stress, you're more likely to be lonely.

    23. RL

      That's right.

    24. SB

      Which is a-

    25. RL

      That's the vicious cycle.

    26. SB

      A vicious cycle, that's the term I was looking for.

    27. RL

      That's the vicious cycle, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. That's what we're trying to undo. So here's a question for you, a quiz.

    28. SB

      Uh-huh.

    29. RL

      All right? And you know the answer.

    30. SB

      Okay.

  22. 1:07:49 – 1:08:31

    Your Vagus Nerve Needs to Be Healthy

    1. RL

      any more."

    2. SB

      And serotonin's predominantly made in the gut, 90%?

    3. RL

      So 90% is made in the gut. The question is does the gut serotonin get to the brain? And the answer is through the afferent vagus nerve. So that afferent vagus has to be functional and it has to basically conduct information from the gut up to the brain in order to be able to transduce that. That is what we call intuition. That is called gut feeling.

    4. SB

      So I need my vagus nerve to be healthy.

    5. RL

      Yes. So you... Yes, you do. And there are a lot of things that are causing that vagus nerve not to be healthy, including all of the gut inflammation that we talked about from the ultra-processed food.

    6. SB

      So how do I make my vagus nerve healthy?

    7. RL

      Eat real food.

  23. 1:08:31 – 1:10:40

    Do Vagus Nerve Stimulators Work?

    1. RL

    2. SB

      What about those vagus nerve stimulators that everyone's banging on about?

    3. RL

      So the- they're- they're interesting the... and they do have benefits for seizure control. Okay? For seizures, um, the, uh, vagus nerve, uh, for some reason transduces information up and down that help mitigate seizures. No one's been able to demonstrate, to my knowledge, that you can use a vagal nerve stimulator to actually change emotion.

    4. SB

      I was looking at the research and it says exactly what you described, that a meta-analysis and long-term follow-ups show a 30% to 50% reduction in seizures-

    5. RL

      Right.

    6. SB

      ... for patients who use vagal nerve stimulation. But outside of that, in terms of depression, the evidence is modest.

    7. RL

      Meager. Meager.

    8. SB

      Meager, yeah. Around 15% to 25% show sh- whi- whi- which is above placebo. So it's small. Uh, and then with anxiety, it's the same. There's not... There's only low-quality and small-scale work.

    9. RL

      That's right.

    10. SB

      They, they do say, though, that implanted vagus nerve stimulators show the strongest evidence of epilepsy and depression, but the bottom line is, um, it works well for seizures as you said, um, and there's still a lot unproven as it relates to stress-

    11. RL

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... and focus.

    13. RL

      I wish they worked.

    14. SB

      I mean, it would be an easy sale. You know-

    15. RL

      It'd be effective.

    16. SB

      You know, one thing you learn from doing, doing what I do with this podcast is you learn that in life, there are really not many shortcuts. And everything that appears to be a shortcut, some device, some contrap- contraption that's gonna fix things, actually either doesn't work, is a scam, or has some hidden trade-off.

    17. RL

      Right.

    18. SB

      And so it goes back to this really important principle that I think everybody listening should embody which is there's no free lunch in life. If it appears to be the- the fast way, it's probably a fast way to something else, uh, and the slow way is the fast way. The hard way is the fast way. This is kind of what I've learned. Like, I can try all these things to try and trick, to try and not, you know, to try and be able to eat sugar but be healthy-

    19. RL

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      ... and there's always some fucking trade-off.

  24. 1:10:40 – 1:15:55

    The Real Truth About Ozempic

    1. SB

    2. RL

      Exactly.

    3. SB

      Like even Ozempic.

    4. RL

      Exactly.

    5. SB

      Everyone's talking about Ozempic at the moment.

    6. RL

      It's, it's a Band-Aid, not a fix.

    7. SB

      What do you think of Ozempic?

    8. RL

      Huh, how much time you got? (laughs)

    9. SB

      Well, depends what you think.

    10. RL

      People ask me this all the time. Um, I wear three hats. Okay? So I'll put my first hat on, my clinician hat. I'm glad they're here, these GLP-1 analogs. They do work. I'm not saying they don't. They do. And God knows if you have a BMI of 40 to 45 and you have tried everything else and nothing else works and it's a matter of life and death, then I am glad they're here. All right, now let me put my second hat on, my scientist hat. Okay, why do they work? They work in two places. They work actually at that nucleus accumbens which I mentioned before, the reward center. It actually seems to reduce reward. It's one of the reasons why GLP-1 analogs are not just being used for obesity but for alcoholism, for drug addiction, for many things because they're basically putting that reward system to rest, which is a good thing. Now, we had a drug that did that back in 2006, put that reward system to rest. It was called rimonabant, uh, trade name Acomplia. And what it was was an anti-endocannabinoid. It was an endocannabinoid receptor antagonist. It was the anti-marijuana drug. It was the anti-munchies drug, and so it caused weight loss. And it got released in the European Union, the EFSA approved it in 2006, and within two months of its hitting the market, there were 21 suicides. Okay? And the reason is because if you suppress reward, ain't no reason to get out of bed in the morning. Okay? Now, the good news with these GLP-1 analogs is we've been looking for the suicide signal and haven't seen it, but we also are looking for the depression signal and we see that a lot. So it does seem to be having the same effect, maybe not as severe as rimonabant, but nonetheless, that's a downside for sure. Okay, now the second place it works, GI tract.It delays gastric emptying. It slows food going through the alimentary canal, especially the stomach, okay? That's why it works, 'cause you can't eat more if your stomach's still full, 'cause it didn't move it along. Okay, that's good, sort of, except it gives you all the side effects, the nausea, the vomiting, the pancreatitis, the gastroparesis, stomach turns to stone. 3.4% of all people who take GLP-1 analogs get gastroparesis. And guess what? (gasps) When you stop the med, the gastroparesis doesn't go away. And there is a lawsuit against Novo Nordisk right now over gastroparesis from GLP-1 analogs. Not so good. In addition, you lose weight. Okay, what kind of weight? Turns out half muscle, half fat. Now, losing fat's good. Losing muscle is not. Losing muscle is actually a risk factor for early demise. Sarcopenia is a risk factor for early demise. Now, what else causes loss of equal amounts of muscle and fat? Starvation. And that's how the damn (laughs) medicines work. They're causing you to starve. Well, that's not the best way to do this, people. Also, only one-third of people who take GLP-1 analogs actually respond. Two-thirds don't. They don't tell you about those. They're only telling you about the responders. And as soon as you stop taking it, all the weight comes rushing back, plus some, because you've only Band-Aided the problem. You haven't fixed the problem. Also not such a great thing. And then finally, let me switch to my third hat, my public health advocate hat. Now, I did say these drugs work, 16% mean weight loss. True, okay? If everyone in America who qualified for a GLP-1 analog got it, that would be $2.1 trillion to the healthcare system, which is currently 4.1 trillion, so that would be a 50% surcharge over what we're currently paying, and Medicare's gonna go broke by the year 2029 anyway without it, so you're gonna put another 50% on top of that? How the hell are you gonna pay for that, for a 16% weight loss? Conversely, if we just got added sugar out of the diet, out of the American diet, to the level of USDA guidelines of 12 teaspoons of added sugar per day, no more, we could get a 29% weight loss and save $3.0 trillion. That's a $5.1 trillion swing for double the weight loss and no side effects. Which one do you think is better?

  25. 1:15:55 – 1:18:32

    Can Ozempic Help with Addiction?

    1. RL

    2. SB

      Yeah. It's clear.

    3. RL

      That's how I feel about it.

    4. SB

      There was, um, there was a recent animal research study that suggested that things like Ozempic, uh, semaglutides, reduced cocaine self-administration in-

    5. RL

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      ... rats by roughly 30% during treatment-

    7. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... and cut their drug-seeking behavior by 62% after a period of abstinence-

    9. RL

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      ... which speaks to some of the things you're saying there about GLP-1s, Ozempics, role in the reward pathways in the brain.

    11. RL

      Yep.

    12. SB

      So-

    13. RL

      It's interesting.

    14. SB

      It's interesting.

    15. RL

      Very interesting.

    16. SB

      But what is that saying? It's saying that if you, in these rats, if they were given these GLP-1 antagonists, these Ozempics, these semaglutides-

    17. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SB

      ... they were less likely to be addicted to things.

    19. RL

      Yeah, I mean-

    20. SB

      To cocaine.

    21. RL

      I wouldn't say less likely to be addicted. They're already addicted. They're, they're basically choosing not to continue to consume.

    22. SB

      And again-

    23. RL

      We don't know if they're addicted. They're rats. But their behaviors suggest that they're reducing the consumption of the addictive substance.

    24. SB

      And what, what is this suggesting? This means that the GLP-1 is doing what?

    25. RL

      Well, number one, maybe the reason that they're not consuming more is because their stomachs aren't moving. If your stomach's not moving, you don't wanna take any more, do you?

    26. SB

      Maybe, yeah.

    27. RL

      Maybe it's that. We don't know. That's one possibility. Uh, there are no qu- there's no question that the nucleus accumbens has GLP-1 receptors, the ventral tegmental area has GLP-1 receptors. And I actually gave a talk at the, um, California Society of Addiction Medicine on Ozempic, so we know what, you know, the, the data show. We're still, you know, researching this and trying to investigate it, figure out what it is. You know, it- that also wouldn't explain the alcohol story 'cause alcohol's not, um, uh, food, you know? It's, uh, and it's liquid, so it's, uh, you know, it's a little different, and it definitely reduces alcoholism, uh, con- uh, alcohol consumption, so there does seem to be an effect.

    28. SB

      Understanding what dopamine does, from what you said earlier, it would appear that thenbe zlike GLP-1s, the Ozempics, are dampening dopamine's release in some way because the rats, when you talked about motivation, um, and dopamine, the rats are less motivated to go and get more cocaine.

    29. RL

      Correct.

    30. SB

      Hmm. Uh-

  26. 1:18:32 – 1:21:49

    Practical Tips to Lose Weight and Avoid Ultra-Processed Foods

    1. SB

      Going back to Jenny and Dave, Jenny and Dave both have a little bit of extra weight on them. We've talked about, really interestingly, the whole idea that serotonin, connection, love plays an, a tremendous role, um, and stress, and so Jenny and Dave now, they're gonna be thinking about their relationships, and friendships, and going to that run club as a way to help them downstream with addictions and other things they're struggling with.

    2. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      Is there anything else that Jenny and Dave, who represent the typical American, need to know to maybe shed some of that body fat?

    4. RL

      Number one, ultra-processed food-... is obesogenic. Now, if Jenny and Dave are under stress, if Jenny and Dave are under financial stress, if Jenny and Dave are under time stress, it's going to be really hard for them to turn away from ultra-processed food. So, don't expect their weight to get any better-

    5. SB

      Not at all.

    6. RL

      ... until they fix their diet. The one thing I am very sure of is that if you keep eating the same shit, don't expect anything good to happen.

    7. SB

      But it's hard.

    8. RL

      It's very hard. Some practical types of things. The first thing is that when they go to the store-

    9. SB

      Yeah.

    10. RL

      ... don't go hungry. (laughs)

    11. SB

      Okay. Love that.

    12. RL

      (laughs) That's the first one.

    13. SB

      I make that mistake a lot.

    14. RL

      All right? The second thing-

    15. SB

      Why? Let's give some context there.

    16. RL

      Oh, because if they're hungry, all bets are off. They're done.

    17. SB

      Because they're more likely to reach for the bad stuff.

    18. RL

      The bad stuff, 'cause the bad stuff's calling to them. And by the way, the bad stuff's on the end caps of each of the aisles of the grocery store.

    19. SB

      And in the middle?

    20. RL

      In the middle? Oh, well, uh, uh, any... If you've gone into the aisles, you've gone off the rails, because that's where the ultra-processed food is.

    21. SB

      So shop around the outside, which is-

    22. RL

      You have to shop around the outside, which is where the real food is.

    23. SB

      The fridges and...

    24. RL

      The fridges, and the produce, and the meats, and the dairy. Okay?

    25. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    26. RL

      Not to say that there isn't, you know, m- ultra-processed food and sugar hiding in those places too. But if you've gone into the, you know, s- uh, standard, you know, aisles, um, you know, that's where all the ultra-processed food is hiding. And, you know, 73% of the items in the American grocery store are poison. So, if you go into the grocery store, you already have a problem.

    27. SB

      So the first one is don't go hungry. The second one is to use-

    28. RL

      Stay on the outside of the-

    29. SB

      The aisle.

    30. RL

      ... supermarket.

  27. 1:21:49 – 1:24:09

    The Dangers of Drinking Soda

    1. RL

    2. SB

      I, do you know, the other day, I looked at... My friend was drinking a can of, um, Coca-Cola.

    3. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      And I picked it up and I lo- and I thought, "Do you know? I've not seen one of these in a while." And I looked at the, the back of it, and it said the sugar quantity in it was something like 40%, in that region.

    5. RL

      And so it was 39 grams in a, in a can, yeah. Yeah, that's right.

    6. SB

      I say, so 40% of it-

    7. RL

      Is sugar.

    8. SB

      ... is just sugar.

    9. RL

      Correct.

    10. SB

      And people are just...

    11. RL

      There you go.

    12. SB

      No wonder.

    13. RL

      B- that's why we have a fatty liver disease pandemic.

    14. SB

      And sugar's, sugar's fundamentally linked to things like cancer as well, right?

    15. RL

      Yes, absolutely. And we know why now. We know how, you know, through what mechanisms.

    16. SB

      Are th- what are the mechanisms?

    17. RL

      Oh, for cancer?

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. RL

      Okay. So first of all, ins- anything that makes insulin go up inc- increases your risk for cancer, 'cause insulin's a growth factor, okay? Secondly, because insulin causes mitochondrial dysfunction, okay, it increases these other phenomena, like for instance, the pentose phosphate shunt and the, um, uh, Randle cycle and the n- de novo lipogenesis, which is what cancer cells need to be able to multiply and divide. Okay? So it's basically feeding the cancer. Number three, certain cancers, particularly pancreatic cancer, have an enzyme in them called transketolase. And what that can do is that can take fructose and turn it into glucose in the cancer cell only, so that when you're actually f- consuming sugar, you are feeding the cancer specifically. Yet, what w- what do we give cancer patients? Ensure, which is like straight fructose. So you are actually feeding the cancer. So that, that, that's, like, ridiculous. Okay? In addition, because fructose interferes with mitochondrial function, okay, that sends a feedback mechanism to the rest of the cell to divide, because dividing cells are in growth phase. They don't have mitochondria. That's why cancer cells don't have mitochondria. That's why fetal cells don't have mitochondria. Anaerobes don't have mitochondria. They grow the fastest, you know, provided that the c- conditions are right. So bottom line, anything that interferes with mitochondrial function puts you at risk for cancer.

  28. 1:24:09 – 1:27:22

    Younger People Are Getting Cancer More Than Ever

    1. RL

    2. SB

      And are we seeing cancers growing? The, the incidents of people getting cancer, is it, is, that's growing?

    3. RL

      Oh, absolutely.

    4. SB

      Oh.

    5. RL

      And people getting cancer earlier and earlier, especially colorectal cancer. My God, uh, you know, the mean age of colorectal cancer used to be 50 to 55. It is now, y- we are seeing patients with, you know, colorectal cancer in their 30s and early 40s. This is why.

    6. SB

      Because of s- because of...

    7. RL

      'Cause of sugar. And it's a huge problem.

    8. SB

      It is a huge problem.

    9. RL

      So that's what I would suggest Dave and Jenny do to start. Okay? But ultimately, they have to get their sugar and ultra-processed food consumption under control. And the question is, can they do it alone? Chances are, to be honest with you, they probably can't. And the reason is 'cause they're sugar-addicted, and because the food industry has basically made it impossible for them to avoid. That's what we have to fix. We have to allow them the capability of being able to access real food-This is why I'm so upset with what's going on with this a- argument here in the United States over SNAP. Are you familiar with SNAP?

    10. SB

      No.

    11. RL

      SNAP is the Supplementary Nutrition Assistance Program, S-N-A-P, also known as food stamps, okay? I actually testified in front of Congress, in front of the House Appropriations Committee last year to fix SNAP. No, to get soda off SNAP, because soda is, like, the worst thing, and it's also the thing that most people use their SNAP dollars, you know, their SNAP, um, vouchers to, uh, to purchase, and it's killing people. And so I don't think soda should be on SNAP. And so what I did was I testified basically explaining the science, you know, in Congress, and I said that what we need to do is take the money that w- by banning soda sales on SNAP, if people want to spend their own money on soda, that's their business, but we shouldn't be, you know, using a federal government subsidy program to subsidize their death. We should take the money that's saved from the soda sales and utilize it to improve the nutrition of those same people. You know, uh, fr- real vegetables, dietary supplements, uh, fiber, water, 'kay? Things that will be healthy for them. In other words, divert the monies. They didn't hear that. The Republicans are trying to basically gut SNAP. They're trying to get rid of it as an, a entity entirely, and if they don't- they can't gut it, they will basically make it so that they take the soda away, which is f- good, except it's not going to improve their- the rest of their nutrition, because they're basically just gonna take that money and re-pocket it. So how you, you know, set these, uh, legislation, uh, uh, uh, agenda items up is super important, and right now, this government's not doing it.

  29. 1:27:22 – 1:34:16

    Ads

    1. RL

      (page turns)

    2. SB

      Just give me 15 seconds to explain how you can build a viable business online. The people I see winning in life don't have a perfect plan. They just take the first step, and then the next, and then they keep going. They stay obsessed, and they stay consistent. On Stan Store, a platform I co-own, and one of our sponsors is the best first step to help turn your knowledge into income. It only takes a couple of minutes to launch your business and start selling digital products, coaching, memberships, or communities online without any tech headaches or endless setup. Thousands of entrepreneurs, creators, and risk-takers use Stan to take control of their future, because Stan is for entrepreneurs, for those willing to put in the work and bet on themselves. If you're ready to start building, join us. Launch your business today with a free 14-day trial at stevenbartlett.stan.store. (page turns) The, the messages and emails that you get from people that have heard you on podcasts or have read your books or seen your work in other places, what is the, the typical question that those people will ask? If you had to summarize the question into one question, what is it that people ask you the most?

    3. RL

      Uh, (laughs) is juice healthy? (laughs)

    4. SB

      Really?

    5. RL

      Serious. That's probably the most common question. "You say sugar is bad, but isn't juice healthy?"

    6. SB

      Is juice healthy?

    7. RL

      Juice is not healthy. Fruit is healthy. So what's the difference between fruit and juice? The fiber. 'Kay? Fruit has fiber. The fiber reduces the rate of absorption from the gut into the bloodstream, and in doing so, you reduce the insulin response. You reduce the glucose response. You basically protect the liver, and because you've prevented its early absorption, it goes further down the intestine, where the microbiome can chew it up for its own purposes, thus feeding the gut and generating short chain fatty acids, which are there for, uh, metabolically beneficial, anti-inflammatory, anti-Alzheimer's, 'kay? And the fiber acts like little scrubbies on the inside of the colon to get rid of colon cancer cells. So you get all sorts of benefits from the fiber in the fruit, but as soon as you juice it, you've thrown the fiber in the garbage, and so all you now have is sugar water. So eat the fruit. Don't drink the juice. Problem is, that's, you know, what- that's not what the food industry is selling.

    8. SB

      What if I put the fruit in a blender, and then instead of throwing out the gunk, I keep all the little bits in there?

    9. RL

      So what happens is that the f- blades in the Breville or the Vitamix or the NutriBullet or, you know, whatever you use to make your smoothie, those blades are shearing that fiber into smithereens, into such short pieces that it can't actually act as a latticework to sequester and prevent that absorption. So the rate of absorption in the intestine is just as fast, and so the fructose and glucose will still get to the liver just as, uh, uh, fast as it did before when it was juice. So that's not the answer, so, uh, making a smoothie out of it is not the answer.

    10. SB

      I was looking at the top comments from our last conversation, and they're all extremely, I'd say similar, but they're- they're all incredibly inspiring. Someone here has written the top comment, which, um, I shall pre-re- I shall record the screen so Jack can throw it on the screen. It says, "Steven, I discovered Robert three years ago after my doctor told me I was pre-diabetic. Three years on, my blood levels are completely normal, and everyone tells me how good I look recently. This man should be on every TV in the world, but the food industry is trying to shut him up. Follow the work, and y- you will change your life like he changed mine. Stuart J., 59 years old, male, in the UK."

    11. RL

      That's very heartening. I'm glad to hear that. Good for you, Stuart.

    12. SB

      "My friend was diagnosed with stage four prostate cancer-

    13. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SB

      ... and given one year to live."

    15. RL

      Mm.

    16. SB

      "He found Dos- Dr. Lustig and rigorously followed his advice, keto diet, intermittent fasting, regular walking. That was two years ago. He's now in remission. The cancer is gone." "I was diagnosed with pre-diabetes, fibromyalgia-

    17. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SB

      ... and decided to cut out all the sugar, including fruit. Not only did I lose 60 pounds in under a year, but my pain went from 10 to a one to two."

    19. RL

      Wow.

    20. SB

      "I had more energy. My A1C dropped to normal levels, and I went from being fully disabled to going back to work full-time. Cutting out all the sugar is hard, I won't lie. It's also a constant, constant battle, but it is so worth it."

    21. RL

      Wow.

    22. SB

      And lastly, "I listened to this podcast last year. I made a decision on December the 28th, 2023, to stay away from all candy, brownies, maple, walnut, scones, and all desserts. You get the idea. It is now approaching December 28th, 2024, and besides rewatching this video, I have made another commitment to do the same thing I did last year. It's a shame that 73% of what's in the aisles in the grocery store have hidden sugar in it, and so I haven't gotten radical about it, but the changes I've made have made me feel terrific. Dr. Robert is the cat's meow-"

    23. RL

      (laughs)

    24. SB

      "... and he has a giant part of, in me getting me back purring. I'm 68 and play five days a week, two to four hours a day pickleball."

    25. RL

      Wow.

    26. SB

      "I love the choices I've made. I love you, Doctor."

    27. RL

      Aw. You know what? I love you too. And I'm 68. Maybe when, may- (laughs) maybe when I go to the UK, we'll have a date (laughs) .

    28. SB

      Well, that's Leslie. She's a, she's quite a pretty-

    29. RL

      Oh, very nice.

    30. SB

      (laughs) How does that make you feel?

  30. 1:34:16 – 1:36:14

    Does Exercise Help Lower Your Sugar Consumption?

    1. RL

    2. SB

      And exercise, how does that impact my decision to reach for sugar or not reach for sugar?

    3. RL

      Well, it doesn't really impact your desi- des- desire to reach for sugar. It has its own metabolic benefits. I'm totally for exercise, don't get me wrong. I am completely for exercise. Exercise does many good things, but burning calories is not one of them.

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RL

      Okay? People think, "Oh, I'll, you know, exercise to work off the donut that I ate." Wrong. Ah. Forget it. That's not what it's about. What does exercise do? Exercise increases mitochondria, and that's good because you need increased mitochondrial reserve in order to make all that ATP. Exercise increases brain trophic factors which are necessary for cognition, and it's been shown now that exercise is one of the primary, uh, methods for mitigating risk for dementia, okay? It increases brain-derived neurotrophic factor, it increases leptin. All of these are necessary to promote synaptogenesis and even increase neurogenesis, more neurons, you know, so that they don't die. So, I'm all for exercise. Exercise also increases muscle mass, and muscle mass i- you know, is, uh, is a mitigating factor for early demise. Like I said, sarcopenia is a risk factor for early demise. So, exercise is the way to undo that. Having said that, none of that had anything to do with weight loss, okay? So if you think exercise is going to make you lose weight, you are deluded. You are under a delusion. You have adopted the calorie hypothesis. I am here to dispel. I am here to destroy the calorie hypothesis. A calorie is not a calorie.

Episode duration: 1:50:47

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