The Diary of a CEONotOnTheHighStreet.com Founder: Rapid Success Lead To My Darkest Days - Holly Tucker | E92
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,038 words- 0:00 – 2:15
Intro
- HTHolly Tucker
Early twenties, I was diagnosed with a brain tumor. That was the first knock down.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Holly Tucker, ex-CEO and founder of Not On The High Street. Holly's story is mind-blowing.
- HTHolly Tucker
We go and pitch the idea of Not On The High Street to the land of VCs, who would tell us that it was lovely that us women wanted to create a crafts website, but really, there was nothing in it. And I just said, "Well, we're actually going to change the face of retailing, funny enough. It's not a craft website." We tried to build a marketplace with no tech experience, but we knew what we wanted, and so we found someone who built the technology that eBay were building in America. And we just relaunched, and, and we nailed it. How could I smile or laugh? I found myself becoming a different version of me. One of the lines at Holly & Co is "Bringing color to gray," and I think I was turning gray.
- NANarrator
(Instrumental music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Holly Tucker, ex-CEO and founder of Not On The High Street, one of the UK's most loved brands, but a real pioneer in its space at its time. Holly's story is mind-blowing. How she rose from someone that had no experience, didn't have huge amounts of capital, at a time when women in business, especially women in tech, had it harder than anybody else, she built an online tech company that went on to be worth hundreds and hundreds of millions. But her story isn't straightforward. It's riddled with pain, divorce, heartbreak, turmoil, and having to reinvent and refind herself time and time again. The fundamental life lessons that she shares today, and that she unpacks for us, are life lessons based on problems that we're all going to experience in our lives. It's a real joy to bring you this conversation. And I want to thank Holly for her openness, her intellect, and her incredibly inspiring personality. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Barlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- NANarrator
(Instrumental music)
- 2:15 – 16:37
Your early years
- NANarrator
- SBSteven Bartlett
Holly, I always start in the same place in this podcast, because I think it provides the greatest amount of context on a person, so I, I'm, I'm, I'm somewhat sort of bored of asking these questions, but they're so incredibly foundational to who you went on to become-
- HTHolly Tucker
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because everything from, you know, the start of your journey till now proves that you are clearly an outlier in every way. So tell me, below the age of 18, what were the factors that went into making that person that went on to become this person?
- HTHolly Tucker
Well, um, I was nicknamed Holly Hurricane.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
And that was because I couldn't wait to get to the next stage. So when I, um, you know, turned, I think it was 12, I persuaded my dad that I needed to get a job in a pub cleaning it, so he would wait outside in the car park at five o'clock in the morning. I don't think I'd do this for my son, by the way, anymore. But he would wait outside the, um, the pub, and would, um, pick me up after my shift. I went on, and then I just continually worked when my friends weren't working. I, um, decided that, you know, I needed the first mobile phone, you know, one of those bricks, I think it was 1:1, I think, that it, it only worked in the M25.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh wow.
- HTHolly Tucker
And, um, and so I was just continually pushing it to be grown up, or to be out of childhood, I think. And so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- HTHolly Tucker
Um, because I was inc- I think, and still am today, incredibly excited by life, I, I really wanted to juice life, and I was ready to work. And I think work has always been, um, an incredibly important thing. I remember at 15, um, becoming an intern for Publicis advertising agency, um, on Baker Street. So as my friends would spend the summer out in the, you know, getting up to mischief, no doubt, I would be traveling up to Baker Street to spend my summer working. And I did that when I was 15, 16, and 17, and it actually en- ended up being on the day of my A-level results, my mum waited around the corner and I went for a job interview on the same day I was getting these A-level results in the morning, and I got a job as the junior junior team maker at Publicis advertising agency, rah- and that I now call my sort of, uh, university of life. Um, and then my mum got me in the car and we went to pick up my A-level results, where I thought, up until about a year ago I got a D in business studies, I actually got an E. Um, and, um, that was just ironic because that was the moment I started work. I celebrated my 18th birthday in the office. And I've been working ever since. I'm 44 now. And so I think that that says a lot about who I was. I was just so eager to be in the big wide world. Um, I remember my parents going on holiday, and I was living at home, and I mean, again, if my son ever did this to me, I just, um, rented a place with some friends in Harlesden, because I was working, um, in, in Baker Street, um, and just moved out. I just packed up the car and drove the car (laughs) and texted my parents to say, "Mum, Dad, I've moved out. Um, I'm living in Harlesden," which they weren't necessarily thrilled about.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- HTHolly Tucker
Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
At what age?
- HTHolly Tucker
I must've been 18, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- HTHolly Tucker
Eighteen. Um, so it, it, that is h- that has been me. I was dyslexic, didn't find out, um, for my exams. I am definitely, um, someone who has to work hard to achieve. Um, and always being creative, so that has been a constant in my life. Um, I studied art, uh, at A-level, and I created this huge sculpture that they had never had someone do before called Tom, Dick, and Harry, and they actually cast it in bronze and had a crane pull it out of the art studio and had to take the windows out. And it, it's still there today at my school. Um-... because I, I always go for it, I suppose. Um, so yeah. That was me, you know, befor- um, so when we say before the age of 18, you know, I was in an office at the age of 18. Um, all my friends went to uni, um, and as I said, I did this university of life thing. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
That work ethic, was it at all influenced by your parents? I know you say you were excited by life, but was there an example set by your parents about work ethic?
- HTHolly Tucker
Um, I think, you know, uh, I was always fascinated by my father's role. He was, um, a financial, um, a CFO at General Electric, and he traveled the world, and I was always fascinated with what he did. Um, my grandparents all had, you know, their own businesses, and I was fascinated by that. Um, my mother had a small business, um, when I was younger. I think that always, you know, how we get our money was always placed, um, uh, w- we didn't have, you know, we weren't, w- we were f- fine, but money and where we got our money was always spoken about, so I, I very quickly realized you work to live. So, that's what happens, and so if I wanted to go out, I needed to work for that money. So that has just, that was always part of me. So, you know, maybe that just led to me just continuing to work because that meant that you lived.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
And, um, so yeah. So I, I, I think that, but my work ethic, you know, again, we were talking off-air, you know, I give it my, uh, my all, you know. I lose myself in my work. Um, it is me. And so that's an interesting thing as you get older.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you, you work at Publicis until you're 20 years old, roughly?
- HTHolly Tucker
I, I, yes, I worked there until I was about 21 years old, and then I got headhunted to move to Condé Nast.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, yeah.
- HTHolly Tucker
Uh, meantime, I managed to marry my childhood sweetheart. Again, h- uh, Hurricane Holly was in a hurry, uh, so I bought a place, I got married. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
I need some more context here. So your childhood sweetheart, you met him when he was...
- HTHolly Tucker
We were 14.
- SBSteven Bartlett
14.
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- 16:37 – 22:13
Losing orientation in your life
- SBSteven Bartlett
go back to something you said a, a second ago, which was about that moment where you kind of lose orientation, your marriage has ended. 'Cause I just think-
- HTHolly Tucker
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... so many people listening to this either have gone through that, are going through that, or are gonna go through that moment where they have a significant life change which completely makes them unanchored from what their, like, purpose is in who they are and-
- HTHolly Tucker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, I, I'm fascinated by how long that process lasted for you, and what advice you'd give to someone who... 'Cause I experienced it a little bit when I, like, left my business. Or actually, the first time I experienced it was when someone made me a really big offer for my business, and then I went home that day and, like, mentally spent the money-
- HTHolly Tucker
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and thought, "Well then what, who am I?"
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"What, who am I now?" (laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause your whole identity was attached to this business-
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... so who am I? So, like, what advice would you have for someone, um, that's going through that sort of, like, loss of direction because there's been a significant life change and they, they don't know, you know, who they are or which way to go anymore?
- HTHolly Tucker
Well, it's actually something that now I have a, a word for, um, whereas at the time it was a sort of process. When I consult with small businesses, um, and I, I don't now do one-on-ones, but, um, in my book for instance, it's called A Brand Heart, and it's basically, I believe that a business has a heart and everything has to come off it. You know, that's the pumping organ that everything should come back to. Now you as a founder need to understand what should go into that heart, and it actually should be made up of you. So I think what I did was I went back to... So I...... what makes Holly exist, what makes Holly alive. And through that process, which was about a year, um, and my second one, which we'll come to probably, uh, you know, lasted two or three years, was, um, creativity was one. Um, discovering, um, creative folk. Um, my, m- the, my community, who was I meant to belong to. Um, building, entrepreneurism. Um, e- all these elements were coming through. I was lucky, um, in my la- at the end of the first this year, I actually met my partner, um, who's been my partner for 18 years, and I got married in lockdown, so now he's my husband. Um, so I was lucky to find somebody. Um, and he did a lot of cheerleading for me, you know, sort of, 'cause when you're in that place, you don't really, um, you don't have a perspective on anything that you can give anymore. And so, I think that's another incredibly important thing, is to surround yourself with people who adore you and are willing to tell you what makes you, um, what makes the sunshine out of you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
You know, what that is. And so I was lucky to have that. But that brand heart, like the who is Holly, just cutting it up into five pieces and say, "Okay, if there were five things that I've gotta concentrate on to bring, to restore me, what are they?" Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what-
- HTHolly Tucker
... but it's a pretty painful process.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What role does patience play from, in, in all of that process?
- HTHolly Tucker
Well, none at the beginning.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
I mean, zero patience. I, a hurricane Holly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hurricane, yeah. (laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
I mean, do you know what I mean? Now I've got a little bit more. You know, actually I'm enjoying that getting older and just having a slight, um, listening more, um, not running so fast, um, and picking up the cues along the way, which I think I probably missed the first time around. So, I'm actually really happy to become more patient. I mean, we'll put it in perspective, you know, I'm, you know, I, I'm, uh, very ambitious. So, but I am actually learning to listen, um, to listen to the world a bit more.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And even, even though you've cut your heart into five pieces there to dissect who you actually are, um, that doesn't necessarily mean you know the, the path, as in-
- HTHolly Tucker
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in terms of like the business idea that's gonna get you, get you there, or the, the career. But you, you know the fundamental principles of what you're looking for.
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then what do you need to do? Like experiment, do something?
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- 22:13 – 34:28
The Not On The High Street story
- SBSteven Bartlett
about your journey up until this point, and the experience you'd had in, you know, working on, you know, creating a, a market refaire for, for these small businesses. And then to go from there to trying to create a e-commerce site in the year that you did, I thought was just madness. And I think about entrepreneurs coming into the den and, um, one of the questions I always ask them is like, "Have you got tech experience?"
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"Who's, who's got the technical sort of competence within the team?"
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"Show me what you know."
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And from looking at what, your journey up until that point, you didn't have any of that stuff.
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah. No, none. H- how beautiful is naivety? You know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, yeah. Delusion. (laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah. It is awesome. You know, I look at it, you know, before when I was in it, in it, you know, I thought, "Oh my gosh, there's so many things that we needed to have done before." Now I look at it and I think, "Could I just bottle up that naivety and just take a swig of it every single day?" You know, naivety is the thing. If we had known really that we were creating one of the first marketplaces in the world, you know, at that point in time, there was eBay and Amazon. Amazon was still selling books. eBay had, you know, your socks that you got for Christmas and the, you know, the title was 1, 2, 3, Grandma's Socks. Um, uh, Etsy hadn't launched yet. Um, we were basically looking at, uh, you know, like many businesses start, a human problem that we were experiencing and thought we could create a solution. And all we needed to do was take all those small businesses that were under my town hall roof, and just put them on this thing called the internet. And then wouldn't it be great if you could shop from, you know, Lily-Bel and shop from The Letter Room and put it into one basket? Well, of course, okay. Well, we got 20 grand, so let's build a website for 20,000 pounds. And we found someone who could do that.... big watch out there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Question mark. (laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
Um, and funny enough, three days before launch, uh, we realized that they couldn't do that, you know? That there was no checkout. But because, again, there was no experience, we had already told the whole world with a microsite that was counting down the days to launch, and all the press that we were very able to get, um, that we were launching on this specific day, the 3rd of April.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, this 20 grand, where did that come from?
- HTHolly Tucker
Well, the, the startup, um, that Sophie and I had ... So, I, I, uh, the story is that basically after Your Local Fair, I had a three-month-old boy called Harry, um, with my now husband Frank, and, um, I realized that I couldn't ignore what I had witnessed. When you put a group of small businesses together that are like-minded and bring together discerning customers, there's something that happens there. The High Street was dying, and I needed to do that. But I knew I didn't want to do it alone. After Your Local Fair, which was my fair business, I couldn't do it alone. So, I just wrote to my old boss, Sophie, from Publicis, so she was my boss, saying, you know, "I basically don't think there's anyone else on the planet that has the yin to your my yang. You know, is able to rewrite the English dictionary, um, and can be that person." And so I wrote to her, and I've still got the email, and it says, you know, "I want to bring everything that's not on the High Street together," da da la la. But I had a terrible beta name.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
And, uh, 24 hours later, she said yes, because she was that customer too. She wanted to find the curious, the discover- the small businesses and things. But I had a three-month-old baby. That wasn't gonna stop me. And so we went on this journey to build it, and as I said, you know, we tried to build a marketplace with no tech experience or retail experience. But we knew what we wanted. And so we, um, pooled together a few savings. Uh, we were both with young children. Our husbands were working, um, to pay for the mortgage. Um, we got a loan from a bank, very small loan, and we remortgaged our homes slightly, both of us. So, I think we came to it with about 80,000 pounds, thinking that we had contingency in there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
I mean, everything. And funny enough, uh, we didn't have enough money. But we launched on the 3rd of April with no checkout to our shopping site. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why? Why was there no checkout?
- HTHolly Tucker
Well, because funny enough, eBay couldn't even build a, a, a multi-partner checkout with one basket. You know, no one had yet actually done that technology. So, um, and I remember naively calling, you know, calling eBay. Ju- just picking up the phone-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
... to eBay, thinking, "I don't know who I'm gonna get through to."
- SBSteven Bartlett
"Hi. Is that eBay?" (laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
"Hey. Hi. Is that the CTO? You know that stuff you're building there, is there any chance, uh, I could have it too?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
"Uh, because we're dealing with a company in (laughs) Cornwall-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) .
- HTHolly Tucker
"... who, uh, r- has let us down." Um, so we didn't ... You know, this hadn't been built yet, this, this, this functionality. And so, uh, we launched. We called it a press preview, and we just pivoted, and we were, uh, on something called Daily Candy, which was huge at the time. We were on the Daily Mail front cover, all this sort of stuff. It was great. So we got all the traffic, but no one could checkout. Um, but, you know, as mother lions that we were, and I always liken businesses to being a parent, uh, something that in my latter years was frowned upon, uh, by the VCs, because actually I do believe that when you have that spirit of a parent, you can lift a car off a child.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
When you're a founder and literally you're launching a shopping site with no checkout, what are you gonna do? And so we found someone who, in two weeks, built the technology that eBay were building in America.
- 34:28 – 41:48
Optimism in business
- SBSteven Bartlett
You just said there that, you know, the company was completely out of money, but I, but I, I could tell that you also didn't believe it would fail, which is a bit of a-
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... contradiction to some degree. But I-
- HTHolly Tucker
Well, because it was just money.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. And you could, you could figure that out?
- HTHolly Tucker
(laughs) I don't know how.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, yeah. But you were just there figuring it out.
- HTHolly Tucker
But, you know, you know, money is just this, you know, okay, so if we got the money, and the hard bit really is doing the doing, isn't it?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- HTHolly Tucker
It's building it. So I always just knew somehow this will work out. I mean, of course you have the old terrible dark days, but I knew it was going to work out. How could it not? We were onto something, and I knew that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That level of optimism, in, upon reflection of your career of the last, you know, couple of decades, how important has that optimism been? That just, like, unexplainable, unjustifiable, I don't know why, but it'll just, it'll all work out optimism.
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause you've also, 'cause you, 'cause you've employed a lot of people seeing the opposite.
- HTHolly Tucker
Y- yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That sense of, like, catastro- you know, that catastrophizing.
- HTHolly Tucker
Oh, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh no, we're fucked. You know, that kind of-
- HTHolly Tucker
Oh, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
Oh man, I've, I've kissed a lot of those frogs.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
Um, yeah, wouldn't you say that that's a common denominator you find in entrepreneurs?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, that's right. 100%.
- HTHolly Tucker
I mean, it's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Even in team members. Someone... So I've, I, it's so, uh, so... I can't explain it enough. Uh, the one example I always come back to was, um, I was flying to Brazil and Obama was speaking at the same time as me, um, on the same stage as me.
- HTHolly Tucker
Wow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Just like he was speaking just after me. And I thought, "Well, Obama's here. I'm a speaker. He's a speaker. Can't I meet him?" And someone that was working for me at the time went, "Oh no, I asked somebody and they said no." I was like, "Who gives a fuck if they said no? Ask someone else and just keep asking." And then they were like, "No, no, no, Steve, we've been asking a long... They just said no." So I was, "I'll do it then." And I, I sent some emails and-... within 30, uh, within 30 emails, someone comes and grabs me and goes, "Come and meet Obama."
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I just think there's always-
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- 41:48 – 50:41
Hiring for a business
- SBSteven Bartlett
you've got the VC money, thing is, you know, the team is small-
- HTHolly Tucker
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... things are agile.
- HTHolly Tucker
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Typically the most fun times.
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah. Yeah. The team was small. Um, myself, Sophie. I hired my sister, um, who was just gonna help me out for a summer.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
Uh, she still works for me at Holly & Co.-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
So that's been a good 16, 17 years that we've worked together now. Um...... hired then her university friend. Her university friend came and coded the site. That per- You know, it's th- that beautiful moment that you're just literally, "Do you have a pulse and do you breathe? Okay."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
"Would you like to come and work for us?" You know? I was talking to somebody-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
... the other day, um, and he said, "It's that wonderful naivety where you get in a car and the cab and the taxi driver's really, really chatty, and so you almost go and offer them a job." Because it's just this moment where you need soldiers. You know, that's that time, isn't it, where you don't need the skill. We need power and, um, we need energy, and we need commitment, and we need you not to have a high salary. That's the-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
... that, that (laughs) that moment in time. And so that was what it was. And, you know, we were growing at 2,000%. We were trying to keep up with it. I call it like that speed train with all the nuts and bolts are flying off and you're, you're at the driving seat, and there you're going. And as you said, with optimism, that energy is just infectious. And so we just were growing so rapidly. So we were going from £100,000 TTV to a million the next year, to £2.5 million, to £6 million. Now keeping up with that, and also remember, in a marketplace you have two clients. Yeah. I always laugh at people that moan about having one client. Like, try two.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
You know, you've got your customers and you've got all the small businesses, which by the way, you are only as great as their ability to keep up with 2,000% growth. Some of them are growing at 5,000% because they're the hot product. And so it's that coaching of that group of people to keep up with you. Meanwhile, you know, the swan to the customers and the swan to the, uh, partners, which we called them partners from day one, you know, they weren't sellers. We were only as great as they, they were. And that was that beautiful shift that we were creating in this world. We were, we were respecting small businesses. They would get a media pack that cost us way too much, I think about-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
... £5 per thing. But we wanted them to know how talented they were. We curated from day one, which now, you know, uh, is a word we use a lot. Back then, it was not a word. You know, "Why aren't you accepting everybody?" And we would be, "No, we're turning away 90% of everyone that joins, even though they're paying a joining fee and we're eating baked beans and worrying about the mortgage, we're not getting paid a salary, we will turn away 90%". Because one day, our brand will thank us for it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
And it did. It very, very much did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You talk there about hiring-
- HTHolly Tucker
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and that flippant hiring process at the start, which I know very well and I, I've joked about it on this podcast before, like walking into Prada and the guy's selling the bags. I was like, "Do you wanna be an e-director?" (laughs) I was like-
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then, like, I had some guy on Facebook, who's called Ash, one of my good friends now, and he even laughs about it. He was on Job Seekers Allowance, he'd never done a job in his life. I made him marketing director-
- HTHolly Tucker
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and that was ... I was 18, and I was just like, "Fuck it." You know? Like, I was like, "Yeah, you'll do."
- HTHolly Tucker
But you're like, what's the worst ... "I don't think ... I think this could work out," right?
- 50:41 – 55:30
Losing myself within the business
- HTHolly Tucker
create the next bestsellers.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you find yourself at war with the business you'd created?
- HTHolly Tucker
Um, I l- I loved it. So again, if I look at being a parent, I loved it, but I didn't enjoy them right now. You know, I found them difficult to live with, you know, and that's what I would say, it's you never lose your love. You never lose the... But actually what was happening was the process had become so big that the core of what I loved foundertitis, you know, the Duracell battery. You know, that is why founders are unbelievable, should never be moved from a business, whatever. Should maybe take a new role, that's okay, because actually they don't enjoy the role of the operations. But that sort of Duracell battery, when you take it out of a business, you know it. I'm sure you've interviewed many people that you, y- something goes, the customer even knows it. Everyone knows it. And so that was, that's just been a brilliant, uh, lesson for me, but also a lesson that I now pass on through Holly & Co. You know, Holly & Co is all about me being vulnerable with the truth-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- HTHolly Tucker
... and ins- hopefully inspiring other people that when they're growing their small business and they think they're going to hire the next person that's going to be the silver bullet, A, there is zero silver bullets-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
... in business, but B, it doesn't work without you. You know, for all your defects and all your faults and all your weaknesses, it just doesn't work without you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And was there a moment where you realized that you'd have to take a different role within the business?
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah, I suppose it got to that point where, um, 200 people, five VCs, I was chairwoman and CEO, um, and things were changing. You know, I was, you know, 15 meetings a day, uh, running to the loo with my PA who would then brief me as I was in the loo on my next meeting to go into my office, where it was already set up, to be countlessly doing board meetings. You know, one board meeting would finish, and we'd be preparing for the next board meeting. Um, and basically being at, at a stage where in any given day did I do anything that I loved. You know, my new book is Do What You Love, Love What You Do. You know, I, I brought up this business that I loved, but every single day, did I actually ever do what I loved? And there was that moment where I needed to make that decision, um, and it was a pretty goddamn painful one where I sort of realized I'd lost myself. You know, I was, um, I didn't look like I look today. You know, I was in the tube dress with the high heels on, double Spanx on. I was a she man. You know, I needed to be that person. I was brought up, remember, I was 28 when I started. I was, I was brought up through Not on the High Street and the experience. That's all my reference point was. And so I knew I needed to dull motion and, you know, drive this and be this person. And, um, and I think I was probably, in reflection, tired of not being Holly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Could you feel it? Could you feel it?
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I felt it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was that feeling?
- HTHolly Tucker
But I didn't know at the time, like you were just saying-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
... I was just in the motion. I was a hamster in the wheel. You don't know any different. You know, you just exist-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
... don't you? And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
... your whole purpose is to fuel everybody else, and sort of, you, you realize that when you're not there, things go off the rails. And so you have this sense of responsibility. And every night I went to sleep...Um, I would lay on my pillow. I would have my son as my responsibility. I would have my home, I was the main breadwinner of our home. But I would have the thousands of small businesses that if I go wrong, ever, you know, a lot of them, 50% of them relied on the, this was their only income. Their husbands had quit their job. You know, they were doing million pounds, two million pounds a year. Like, this was my responsibility and the staff were my responsibility. So I had this heaviness. So how could I be light Holly?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
How could I smile or laugh? I, you know, I, I found myself becoming a different version of me. Um, one of the lines at Holly & Co is, "Bringing color to gray," and I think I was turning gray.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did your partner know that, Frank?
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah, yeah. You know, definitely knew that. We were in a catch-22 though, you know? When you bring up a business that's providing the only income, there's no way out. You know, h- how, how does this go
- 55:30 – 1:08:30
Leaving not on the high street and rediscovering myself
- HTHolly Tucker
somewhere? Because my ambition, (laughs) -
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
... you couldn't stop me. I was on the hamster wheel. I could see everything, you know? I always have to be reminded what year I'm in, 'cause I can see what the future is. I know what it is. So why, I just need, now need to make it happen. That's the, the part. So, you know, we, we nearly didn't survive a few times during that, um, time. You know, being an entrepreneur and having relationship is a very, very difficult thing, because, and having a young child, you know, Harry was three months old when I started Not. If the nanny didn't arrive, he was put under my desk, you know, I remember at the age of two, he was under my desk, he had a DVD player, you remember where you actually put the DVD and you open the screen and you put the headphones on, Wotsits and Ribena, and I would just sort of shuffle him in there. And there used to be a program called Mr. British where she used to talk about putting the baby in the drawer, when Mr. British... That was what Harry was, he was under the thing. Because being a woman and a mother, no, you know, the kid doesn't come to work, even though I was the boss. But it was the mindset, "No we are a tech female entrepreneurs, we have got to be a certain way." Um, and so that was very challenging, and it puts a strain on relationships. Um, and so that has just been difficult, you know, you know? The downs are very down. Dark, dark days when you're running out of money, you've gotta raise again, but the business is going amazingly, you have no choice, let's do it again. Um, and, you know, your family takes a toll.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that decision to sort of change your role, that's not a decision that's made overnight, that's a slow, sort of grinding down. And other conversations up until that point with the board and with other people and with Frank, or...
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah, there was. I mean, it was a bit of a storm (sighs) of lots of things. I can't quite remember what was going on at that point in time. But it was, you know, another Christmas was coming up, it's gonna be double what that is coming in, um, a very full C-suite, managing that group of people, um, being at, you know, now VCs are really waking up, you know, what we're doing, we're, you know, I think we were at 100, over 100 million TTV. You know, this was starting to become something, it was about internationalization, so doing it all again but in other countries. And, um, there was just this point that that needed to probably not be my existence in the future. So, um, ripped off the plaster and did it, and decided to get a seasoned CEO to come and replace me. Um, Sophie had left the business at this point a few years before. So I was-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- HTHolly Tucker
Uh, her children were at a different stage of life, um, were older than Harry. So, again, as a mother, it's okay when they're little and she gave me that great advice, you know, "Don't worry if you've missed his first steps, he won't remember. But when they're doing their GCSEs and A levels, they frigging need mum." And, um, and so she, you know, I realized that I was, again, I thought I could do it all, and I, I just now in hindsight, and my father had left as CFO two years before that, so I was sort of on my tod. I was now this woman with this group, with these VCs. And, um, you know, you're always plagued with the imposter syndrome. And I think that I allowed that to ha- you know, determine a few things in my life. Now I look back, thank goodness for that, because what I'm doing today, I have never felt more powerful. I've never felt more Holly. I've never felt more colorful. I've never felt more of a founder than I do today. And I'm in complete control. Um, but when we go back to the story of the two times in my life that I lost my identity, um, might I not have ripped the plaster off if I'd known what I was gonna go through? (laughs) Because I'm sure you've had people describe it, it is not funny losing, leaving your business. If we relate it to a child, how does a mother walk away from his kid? You know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Talk to me about that process.
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah. It's a very, very hard one. I think actually so many more people need to talk about it, because I think it's like a bit of a dark secret. Like, it's, it's that thing, we're all bound by certain things, all this sort of, um, our egos at play here, you know, there's so many, our shame, our, all those points, and I, I wish more founders spoke about this moment, because it's, your entire identity goes now. Now I had built, I was this, you know, "Hi, what do you do?" "I'm the CEO of Not in the High Street." "Really? Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da." You know? Uh, when you wake up in the day, it's all those emails, it's all, it's all that responsibility, the pressure on your shoulders. Wake up the next day, "What do you do?" "Um..."You just forget to even say you found Not- you, you know, you were the founder of Notting High Street. You're, but you're nothing. So, I had a couple of years that were maybe two, three years, two years, dark years, where, you know, at stages I couldn't get out of bed. Um, but, you know, so then I had to do it all again. You know, I had to look at my brand heart. I had to surround myself with people who could raise the phoenix out of the ashes. Um, but it was difficult. You know, I, I couldn't go to events with small businesses. I would, you know, uh, break down. I would have to leave. I, I, I couldn't see people that I knew. I, I couldn't meet socially with people because I just didn't know who I was, um, and it was just a very d- difficult time in my life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How old were you at this, this time?
- HTHolly Tucker
Well, I must have been, uh, 39. No, 40. 40.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what you're describing there, in terms of symptoms, sounds like depression, that phase of-
- HTHolly Tucker
It's actually, what I think it i- sounds like is, um, what, what I think, now I think it is, is grief.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Grief. Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah. I went through a l- I went through the seven stages of grief. I, um, it really was a loss. You know, that was what I was... And especially as I'd always likened it to my child. You know, I had Harry, my real baby.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- HTHolly Tucker
And I had Notting High Street. Now I wasn't with my second baby. So, how can a mother do that, to start with? What happens when I'm not there? It's going to fall, and I'm not going to be there to pick it up. So, it was a very, very difficult process. But as I said, you know, um, I went through total grief. I, I, I got counseling. Um, I surrounded myself with great people. I instantly had to start building. You know, it was the only thing I knew in my head. Um, so six months later, I, uh, my sister, uh, was employed by Notting High Street. She left. Someone else left, who's now my other co-founder. And we would sit around my kitchen table. Um, I decided to ditch the heels, so I threw away every single pair of high heels I owned. Um, today I'm wearing glitter trainers, and I have done for five years, to really say that actually you can be a very powerful, knowledgeable businesswoman and wear glitter trainers. And actually, this is Holly. And so, slowly I started peeling the Spanx off-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
... the heels. I slowly started rediscovering who Holly was. I had some cheerleaders around me who would remind me on the darkest days. And I knew that creativity, like it had done with the vegetable wreaths, was there as my savior.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- HTHolly Tucker
What I had to be is Holly again. And Holly is only Holly, I think, with a business within her (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
You know? Uh, and when I say business and what I'm trying to rediscover with Holly & Co. and trying to put it out there, is actually, it's not just business. I believe creating a business makes you happy. And actually, um, striving for happiness, I think that when you can control your own destiny, you can, uh, work around your family, when you can be your most creative self, when you can answer to nobody, when you can dictate all of these things, where you live, what you do, that is a real source of h- uh, going for happiness. And so, actually people do ask me, "Why are you freaking obsessed with business, Holly?" Like, redefining business. "What is it about business?" I'm like, "It's not about business. Business is a tool and a key." Business is just the thing, the vehicle to get all these other things. And that is why Holly & Co. sort of had to exist. I did say to my husband never again. You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
Because he couldn't... Do you know what I mean? It's huge. The whole family goes through your storm you're whipping up. But my-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah, they go-
- SBSteven Bartlett
But.
- HTHolly Tucker
(laughs) Yeah. Oh yeah, but when you give them enough glasses of wine-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah.
- 1:08:30 – 1:19:47
Helping people create a “good-life” business
- SBSteven Bartlett
(page turns) You refer to Holly & Co. as being a good life business.
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What does that mean?
- HTHolly Tucker
Well, I, I, I refer to it being a good life business, but I also want to, uh, abolish the word SME. You know, I think that there's a whole new language that even needs to come into business. Um, and I'm not talking about businesses who want to float on the stock exchange. I'm not talking about tech businesses. I'm talking about 99.9% of all, um, businesses in the UK are small and medium, right? I'm talking about that when the founder sat around a kitchen table in their slippers and has come up with a great idea, now they find themselves with 50 people. I want to always remind them that they were the founder with slippers with that crazy idea, and that I hear them, and I see them, and I feel them, and I want to create something for them. So the good life-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wh- Why? It sounds very personal.
- HTHolly Tucker
Because, um, I really... You know, I'm of service. I care about people enormously. You know, I f- I feel emotional when I talk about it. Um, I want them to have the best life that they can have. And I, I really live in gratitude, 'cause I'm experiencing it, and I want others to, and I think I could be the key. So that is my power. And so one of the things I say to people is, you know, they're not comfortable calling themselves entrepreneurs. They don't want to be an SME. "Hi, my name's Julia, and I'm an SME." They don't want ne- to... You know, so I say, "You l- you run a good life company. You balance your creativity and your need to drop off the kids and pick them up, and have family life, and take August off, right, with your ambition, profitability, growth, and your own little empire building. You know, those are the two things that you balance. And that's a good life. You're not looking to get Necker Island at the end. You've already..." And what I always say to people is, "Have you ever looked at where you wanna be when you're 80?" You know, it's, a lot of people don't, by the way. So, and no one d- you know, so if you want to be in your business... You know, right now, my son's working at Holly & Co., he's training as a barista. You know, he was three months old. He is s- nearly 17. He towers above me as this strong man that I thought I was gonna fuck up definitely as a baby. I'm so proud of him. He has his own business. You know, that is the good life. I have brought up the next generation that needs to understand entrepreneurism. Do I, I want to exist in a world where he could be by my side in the future, where these group, this team that I've got can work with me for 20 years, where my husba- where I take Fridays off and I go on a date with my husband? That's what my good life looks like. And so that is where, you know, I can see myself at 90 here. But I do ask people, "Have you looked at the future?" Because you, by looking at the future, understanding that last point, you can work backwards, because it's normally not all the riches, the Lamborghini, the, the, you know, all that thing that we, we, we see, don't we, Sunday Times rich list, you know. Is that, is that really where we're heading? Or is it a world where our mental health is stable, we're with our family for as much as we can get, when our health is good, um, where we're creatively fulfilled? We're changing the world. Even if it's just your town, you're doing something. And, um, and that is why now people call themselves a good life business.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that requires, as you say, like, a real change in narrative, because Instagram and that external voice is telling you, "Build, m- hire more people, make more money."
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and what I love about what, what you've said there as well is you- your, your centering... So a lot of the, when you ask a, a business, um, what their objective is, a lot of them will fall into the trap of, and Simon Sinek talks about this, saying, "We wanna be the best or number one."
- HTHolly Tucker
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And just at the very end of my time at my business, I stood in front of all of my employees in the office and said, and explained why, um, why we sh- we had to remove that terminology from all of our, um, from all of our internal and external comms, because, um, those... It, it views life and our journey as a, um-... uh, a, a finite game.
- HTHolly Tucker
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like we'd get to the number one on the scoreboard, but then what then? And i- and because there's nothing then, once you're number one or you're big or you've made whatever, there's nothing then, we try and shift the company towards the direction where we viewed it as like an, uh, an infinite game, where, um, there isn't a scoreboard and we're trying to create a sustainable life for ourself and our company that could theoretically last for many, many, many decades. And when you start viewing your business and your employees in that way, that they might ... that they could be here for 30 years, all of your decisions are different, and your goals are different. But it's tough when you have VCs of course.
- HTHolly Tucker
Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Impossible.
- HTHolly Tucker
And so that's ... It's impossible.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- HTHolly Tucker
And that's what y- you then, you know, you're a chameleon, aren't you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
Uh, and so you, you, you will behave a certain way. So with Holly & Co., that's the liberation I have-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
... where I understand the value of raising someone up to the highest point of their lives, personally and professionally. They are rock stars. They've never ... And they, they know that Holly & Co. was the reason for that. They were set free of anything now, and they're gonna be there for 20 years, and they're going to grow. So many businesses neglect history as a really, really valuable tool. You know, what you've done before and what has worked and hasn't worked is incredibly important. Um, I actually do value the, the, um, the want for people to become, um, sort of the, the champions, I suppose. And so that is now the destination, why I don't have the elevator pitch. I mean, who am I pitching to? You know, what, why ... I, I don't have the destination. I have an anchor.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
And that anchor's my 90th birthday. I have an anchor which is my vision, but I don't have to define it yet, because I wanna be around for that long.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
And how on earth ... We know as an entrepreneur, you don't, you can't tell me what's gonna happen next year.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
You know, we, we c- we can have a course, we have the best intentions and we can think that these people are gonna be the A-game. Um, and so that has been the beautiful point, and that is the knowledge I'm trying to share with this community.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- HTHolly Tucker
I'm trying to help them understand that they're not a cookie-cutter business. They don't need to be. They shouldn't be. Um, and that, that's what I'm l- hopefully leading by example.
Episode duration: 1:25:58
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