Paul Brunson: Why lower expectations make couples happier

Brunson says modern couples expect one partner to be friend, therapist, parent, and coach: lower the bar, invest more, and watch satisfaction climb in months.

Steven BartletthostPaul C. Brunsonguest

Jan 30, 20252h 36mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

155 min read · 30,838 words

0:00 – 2:14
Intro
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Should you keep secrets from your partner?
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  This is big. Yes. And the data shows it will help to increase satisfaction and lower conflict in a relationship.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  So give me an example of something that I shouldn't say to my partner.
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Here's a juicy one. So ...
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  What about (censored) :
6. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Oh, no!
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs) I'm sorry! Even when I say it out loud, I know it.
8. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Paul C. Brunson is the world's most influential matchmaker. Who blends groundbreaking science, research, and over 15 years of expertise.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  To prove that anyone can create unshakable foundations for long-lasting, life-changing love. I read about this study that says men are approximately 624% more likely to separate if the woman gets terminally ill.
10. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  What the (censored) is going on there?
12. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Typically, it's because there is a low level of satisfaction in the relationship from not having enough sex, for example. But this is a major issue, because 80% of relationships have a lower level of satisfaction today than any point in history. And part of that is because most of what we know about finding and keeping love has unfortunately been fed to us through lies.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  Let's pause there, because I want to talk about those myths.
14. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Okay.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  So does having more sex increase the happiness in your relationship?
16. PBPaul C. Brunson
  No.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  What about having doubts in your relationship, is that bad?
18. PBPaul C. Brunson
  That couldn't be further from the truth.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  Really?
20. PBPaul C. Brunson
  It's actually healthy to have doubts about your relationship, and this is why.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  What about if someone cheats, is that the end of the relationship?
22. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Brilliant question, and quite honestly ...
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  And then what are the most important qualities I need in a partner?
24. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Okay, this blew my mind. So these are the three traits to have a phenomenal relationship. Number one ...
25. SBSteven Bartlett
  What the (censored) ? This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to this show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like this show and you like what we do here and you wanna support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is, if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much. Good to see you again.
26. PBPaul C. Brunson
  It's awesome to be here.
27. SBSteven Bartlett
  I'm gonna ask you a question that assumes that I don't know who you are-
28. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
29. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... which is quite hard 'cause I know you very well. But
2:14 – 4:33
Who Is Paul C Brunson?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  who are you, and who are you to write these two books that I have in front of me, Find Love and Keep Love?
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Hmm. Well, who, who am I? I'm first and foremost a husband. I'm a father, uh, I'm a son, I'm a brother, I'm a cousin, I'm a uncle, I'm a mentor, I'm a mentee. You know, I'm all of those things. And I feel like those are the things I am first. Uh, but, uh, I have a longstanding history with relationships. You know, I became a matchmaker. My wife and I launched a matchmaking agency. We became one of the largest agencies in the United States. And what's interesting about being a matchmaker is that a lot of people don't even realize that is a career.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Like, there's legit matchmakers. There's probably, I'd say, roughly a thousand full-time matchmakers around the world. And what we do is we literally match people together for long-term committed relationships. But what ends up happening if you're successful with that is two people enter a long-term committed relationship, and because they've built up a relationship with you, they have questions about how do they keep that relationship, how do they keep their love? So my wife and I then began to transition into counselors and coaches for married couples, or couples who are in committed relationships. So that's where that, that started, and that went on for, for over a decade. And then on top of that, I started, uh, you know, I had research, global research at Tinder, which is a great opportunity for me to look at a very large data set and make predictions as to what's happening with our relationships. Uh, I host television shows, uh, reality TV shows, which for good or for bad I think help to spark conversation about relationships that are needed, so doing research there. You know, I do podcasts like this. You know, so my life actually is all about relationships, and that's the reason why I wanted to, to write this book, and that's the reason why I feel qualified to write this book.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  So how long ago was it that you started doing the matchmaking?
6. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Oh my gosh. So 2008 is when I officially began matchmaking.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  17 years?
8. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs) Yeah. Sh- ... Yeah.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  17 years.
10. PBPaul C. Brunson
  It was a long time ago.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  The reason I ask that is, a lot has changed in 17 years.
12. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  We've been through this evolution of dating apps and, uh, matchmaking services
4:33 – 7:36
How Has Love Evolved Since You Started This?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  and things like match.com, and my question is, where do you think we find ourselves today as it relates to relationships? Like, what is the macro picture? How are people feeling? The person that's watching this right now that's either single and looking or in a relationship and maybe struggling, can you give me an overview, a synopsis of how they're feeling in their head?
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Sure, sure.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  And why?
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  All right, thi- this is a great one. So we're feeling different things. There's a small percentage of us, and I'll go to Eli Finkel research, who wrote phenomenal books, but one is called The All or Nothing Marriage that I love. And in it, he states that if you look at marriages/committed relationships, that 20% of us have higher satisfaction than we ever have in the history of relationships. And you think, "20%. One is, that's fairly small, and do they really have high satisfaction?" And, and I fully believe this, and the reason why is because we have tools. You know, we have people who watch podcasts, read books, watch television shows. We have tools like we've never had before, more access to therapy. So 20%, very satisfied, but 80% more dissatisfied, more upset, more confused than ever before. And I would say that those who are not in relationships, the pool reflects that as well. I think there's a 20% of singles who are hopeful and are developing the tools and developing the skills and learning active listening and all of these things, and they will, and they believe they'll enter strong relationships. They're, they're very hopeful. But I think there's 80% out there that are-... perhaps hopeless, disgruntled, confused, dismayed. Uh, you know, and, and I would say that, that, that's, that's the landscape today. That being said, the reason for that is because we, over the years, have placed more emphasis on one partner versus having a village to lean on. So, so we're, we're leaning more, so we're, we're, we're requiring more from our partner. So what that means is that if we're requiring more, if we're requiring our partner to be ... We want our partner to be our best friend. We all wanna launch a business and be a CEO, right? So we want our partner to be co-CEO or COO. We want our partner to be a great parent. We want our partner to come home at night, take their clothes off, and do backflips in the bedroom, right?
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
6. PBPaul C. Brunson
  This is what we want. This is what we want. So we want now more from that one person versus 30 years ago, 300 years ago, 3,000 years ago, 300,000 years ago when, when humans really began, 300,000 years ago. So you, you, you look at all this and you say, "Wow, we want more." So therefore, we're going to have lower satisfaction. So this is what I believe the, the landscape is today.
7:36 – 11:34
Why Are People Struggling to Find Love?
1. PBPaul C. Brunson
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  And if we start then with people that are looking for love, people that are in search of love, um, how are the, the current tools? 'Cause, well, I see so much online about how people are disenfranchised with, like, things like dating apps and they've tried, like, social media. And I've got so many of my friends who are struggling at the moment. They're going on a hundred dates a year-
3. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and they're unable to find anybody. And I, I, I ponder to myself, I go, "You're going on a hundred dates a year. You're almost a professional dater and you still can't find somebody." Uh, it's, surely that's not through lack of options or, like, the top of the funnel there, the sort of exposure is fine, but there's something further down the funnel as it relates to them being able to convert somebody that seems to be off.
5. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Right. Right. But, but also, I would argue that it could even stem, you, you could deeper to the root, right? So you think about attachment styles. Attachment styles, I know you've talked a lot about-
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
7. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... attachment styles. Attachment styles are kind of the hot thing, the hot trend that people are talking about, rightfully so. I like this. And if you think about that, there are primarily three, right? We know we have secure, there is anxious, and there's avoidant. There's, there are other, uh, variations, but in essence, these are the three. Now, depending on who you talk to, roughly 50, 60% of the population are secure. That means the balance are going to be anxious or avoidant or, or, or some combination. So therefore, if you are on a date and you have an anxious attachment style or you have an avoidant attachment style and you have someone in front of you who is the perfect match for you, they're, they're, they're ticking off all the boxes, you could be so anxious or so avoidant that you push them away or you lay blame to a certain character, uh, characteristic or a trait that they have that means nothing to the relationship and you dismiss them. Y- you know, um, thi- this is going to sound funny but it's sad, is do you know what we found when we were matchmaking what the number one reason why people did not allow someone, someone to get a second date with them?
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
9. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  They had a Velcro wallet. (laughs)
11. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
13. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Velcro wallets are cool though.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  No, they're not.
15. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Can you hold it up to change?
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  No, they're not.
17. PBPaul C. Brunson
  No, they're not?
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  You can't. No.
19. PBPaul C. Brunson
  No? All right. So you know what it was? It was around attraction. So one, it was, you know, physical attraction, but in particular it was 'cause they, they smelled.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  Really?
21. PBPaul C. Brunson
  They had bad breath. Halitosis, right? Or there was some odor. Now, you could argue that scent plays a strong role in our partner selection. Dr. Tara Swart talks about this quite-
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
23. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... quite a bit, right? So there, there's a, there's a evolutionary biology that comes with scent. Yes, I agree.
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
25. PBPaul C. Brunson
  But to look across from someone and say, "You know what? You, you pro- like, you have, like, your breath stinks, right?"
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
27. PBPaul C. Brunson
  "And I'm not going to give up the, the second date. And as a result of your breath stinks, you have long, uh, fingernails, you're, you're, you're in a track suit." Right? For, to, to, to look at these moments and say, "Because of this thing, I'm going to dismiss you as a partner," I think for a lot of people sounds logical, but then for a lot of people sounds ridiculous. You know what I mean? Now, how you got to that point is the challenge. If you think it's ridiculous how you got to assuming that because someone has a track suit on, because they have long fingernails, it dismisses their, their, um, their validity of being a great partner, that is about you. That is about you, your attachment. That is about how you've been socialized. That is about... So I would argue that people who are going on lots and lots and lots of dates and they still can't feel like they can find the right partner, the first place to look at is yourself.
11:34 – 16:14
The Danger of Comparison
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  I do wonder this, because I think the more dates you go on, the more reference points of comparison you then have for the next person. So date 101, if you've been on 100 previously, you've now got 100 guys who are maybe all good at one thing, and date 101 is gonna be compared to the previous 100 on all factors. So maybe date 49 had great sense of humor. Date 53 was rich. Date 67 was physically beautiful. Now date 101 is gonna be compared to all previous dates-
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Right.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... on all of those factors, and you're always gonna find something that is less good, at least one factor that is less good than someone you dated previously. And I've always wondered, are you, like, accidentally expanding your comparison set-... by meeting more and more and more and more and more people.
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah. So I think this reads to, uh, Barry Schwartz's work, uh, with the paradox of choice.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
6. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Where, you know, what-
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
8. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... Barry Schwartz did with the par- par- paradox of choice, which is brilliant, is just that when we're presented with more options, which is in essence all of these dates, when we choose one, we have a less level of satisfaction with the choice because we saw that we had 100 choices.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm.
10. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Versus if you have three choices and you have to choose between one of those three, there's going to be a higher level of satisfaction as a result. A real-life example is my grandmother. So my grandmother grew up in, I say, the bush, in the bush, in Jamaica. Okay? Super, super small town in Jamaica. My grandmother literally had five or six options as a partner. Now, as a result of my grandmother having those options, when she chooses one person, there's going to be more value, more emphasis, even more if you look at the investment theory, more investment placed in one of those options, versus if she had 100 options and she makes a, uh, a choice. That choice with 100 options becomes more disposable.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
12. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Right? So this is one issue that we have in terms of giving ourselves so many options. The other challenge with this is when you watch people date, they typically date the same person. You know, it's typic- it's typically the sa- the same characteristics. E- even physically, you know, the, the, the, the same.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
14. PBPaul C. Brunson
  I argue that some of the greatest value that we r- we can receive in the dating market, you wanna look at it as a dating market, is to take ourselves out of our, uh, our mar- our market, if you will-
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
16. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... and put yourself in some place different. Right? I call this the premium effect. So, so, so an example of this is I had a friend who was a White woman, roughly 35 years old, who lived in Northern London. And she was like, "Paul, I'm dating all these guys. You know, I can't find the right one. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." I said, "Look, look. You love art, don't you?" She said, "Yeah, I love art." I said, "All right. I want you to take yourself down to the Black Cultural Archives in Brixton, and I want you to go to this, you know, this exhibit that they're having." And she was like, "Brixton?" (laughs) You know? I said-
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
18. PBPaul C. Brunson
  I said, "Yeah, Brixton. Is- Brixton is cool. I go there all the time." Right? "I want you to go there." Now, why did I ask her to go? I asked her to go because the moment that she goes, characteristically, she's not going to look the same. These are mostly going to be Black men and women, perhaps even a little bit younger than she is. Different culturally, right? But yet they have the same value in art and their appreciation for creativity, et cetera. The moment that she goes there, what happens? Some people in the room look at her like, "What's, what's she doing here?"
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
20. PBPaul C. Brunson
  "Like, wh- why is she here?" Those are the close-minded people. Carol Dweck talks about this in her book Mindset. We have close-minded, open-minded. Those are the close-minded. But how do the open-minded react to, to my friend? They lean in. "What are you doing here?" And they're curious and they engage, and all of a sudden, she opens her network to a whole new group of people. Some of those could be romantic interests. Some of those could be platonic. They could be friends. So when we're dating, the s- the serial daters especially, the 100 people, is it's important for you to step outside of your sphere, if you will.
16:14 – 20:17
Racism Within Dating
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  I wanna pick up on something there. Y- you said that White woman went into a Black space.
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Mm-hmm.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  And in that Black space, she would be considered a premium because basically her characteristics make her rare.
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Right? I was just doing some research then, and it says that studies and surveys indicate that ethnic minorities, particularly Asian men and Black women, often face unique challenges in dating in both the UK and the US, and these challenges stem from a combination of social stereotypes, cultural biases, and the preference expressed on dating platforms. And the reason I'm asking this question is to... I... it's not a lived experience I have, because I'm not an Asian man, although sometimes people think I am. There are a group, group of people, where I don't have a shared lived experience, who are struggling in ways in the Western world that, like, maybe me and you don't understand.
6. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah. It... No, it... Definitely. Definitely. Y- you know, we, we have to understand that we exist in a highly racist society. And a lot of people don't like to acknowledge it, don't like to talk about it, like to sweep it under the rug. But when it comes to dating, it shows up-
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
8. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... like in this, in this statistic that you're talking about.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yep.
10. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Now, now let's think about this. If you are someone who is not Black and you are interested in a Black... Or I'm sorry. You're interested in a partner, and then you're pre- and you've had no experiences with Black people other than maybe watching some Black people on, on television. And your parents and your community have said all kinds of crazy things about, about Black people, and you have all types of negative belief structures around Black people. And then... And you're a man. You're, say, a White man, and you're presented with a Black woman on a dating app. Are you going to swipe on this person? No. You're, you're, you're not because you don't understand how incredible she is, how smart she is, how beautiful she is. Like, you, you don't. You have no appreciation. So the reason why they're swipe... they're not swiping is their ignorance.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
12. PBPaul C. Brunson
  That's, that's, that's what it is. And that's... This is the reason why one of the most important things we can do-... is widen our social groups. This is the most important thing. I mean, it positively impacts our romantic relationships, it positively impacts our life, is that we need to have a diverse set of people that we interact with and truly understand how beautiful, how beautiful people who are different than us actually are.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  Is there a bit of a systemic issue here as well? 'Cause when I was thinking about your grandmother growing up in that village in Jamaica that you referenced, she would spend a lot of time, because of the nature of how she would meet that person in the village, that other man in the village, getting to know him beyond his surface level appearance.
14. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  So if he lived across the street, she would interact with him, see his behavior. He might have long fingernails, you know, but she- she gets to learn that he's a kind, generous person, and he's got a good sense of humor, so she can look past the Velcro wallet and the long fingernails. But in the way that we've designed dating in the modern world, where most people now, I believe, are meeting online in some form, whether it's social media or other, we're actually purely judging someone on their fingernails. We ha- we make a decision in a couple of seconds whether this person is com- compatible or not. And obviously, that's not possible. Um, and I just see, I just feel this real strong sense of, um, dissatisfaction, frustration, and, uh, desperation-
16. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... from people at the moment as it relates to finding someone.
18. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  And I just think the systems that we've built, social networking, the screens, have- have only exacerbated this frustration and desperation. My question, which is somewhat linked to this, is really around the old ways of doing things, like you were talking about your grandmother. And I was really curious about one subject in particular, and wondered if you- you had any data on this, which is arranged marriages.
20. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
20:17 – 24:15
Are Arranged Marriages More Successful?
1. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Are arranged marriages as successful as the relationships we form today via social media screens, et cetera, et cetera? Because, you know, back in the day, we were kind of put together, um, with somebody based on, I don't know, family or economic reasons. Did those marriages succeed?
3. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Many of us don't want to acknowledge how successful arranged marriages actually have been and continue to be.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Really?
5. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Continue to be. But we have to look at the why, right? Now, when people hear this, they immediately say, "Oh, well, what about all the abuse and the dissatisfaction that happens in these relationships?" Does it happen? Absolutely. But it also happens in non-arranged marriages at significantly high rates. So why are arranged marriages so successful? To some researchers, they have a higher level of satisfaction than non-arranged marriages, and here's the reason why. The reason why is because you have families coming together and negotiating and determining whether or not this particular person fits within their family structure. And what does that mean? That means that you have literally a mother, a father, a grandmother, a grandfather, a brother, a sister who come together and they discuss and debate the characteristics, they discuss and debate whether or not this person is an upstanding, you know, is this an- an upstanding human being. You know, is- is this person open-minded? Is this person going to be resourceful, right? Are they resilient? They debate these characteristics. And the reason why it's so beneficial is because the person getting married is not involved, and they're not involved because they would be entirely biased. What happens today is incredibly dangerous. What happens today is when we meet someone, we typically do not involve any friends and family, we are already infatuated with the person, so we're obsessed with them, therefore we can't even determine whether or not they have any of the traits that we want, we are living through our own trauma, and we're not even selecting them. Typically, they are selecting us.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  That's it.
7. PBPaul C. Brunson
  So we end up sliding, if you will, into a relationship that was never right for us to begin with. Whereas in arranged marriages, you have a true debate happening around whether or not someone will fit within that, with- within the life of that individual. Another example is why- my wife and I run a matchmaking agency. We pioneered something that had never been done, at least to our knowledge, in matchmaking. Like, Stephen, if you were a client of ours, you came... You would be the perfect client at that time.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
9. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Right? Because we had many men who were, uh, incredibly successful professionally and felt as if, "Okay, what I'm missing is I'm missing love. I'm missing partnership." So if you came to us as a client, instead of me saying, "All right, Stephen, tell me what you want," right? And you give me this long list. (laughs) I know you'd give me a list of, like, 150-
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
11. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... things that you want (laughs) , right? Instead, I would say, "No, no, you- you go sit over there. I'm not- I'm not even going to talk to you. Instead, let me talk to your brother. Let me talk to your coworkers."
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Hmm.
13. PBPaul C. Brunson
  "Let me talk to your exes. Yes, let me talk to your exes. Let me get a 360 perspective of who you are from the people who you are closest to." And I would then build out a profile based on the consensus of what they're telling me.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  This is so true. W- I've got a, one of my best friends in the world has struggled with, a few of my best friends,
24:15 – 26:54
Your Friends Usually Know If You're With the Right Person
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  but there's two I'm thinking about in particular, but one I really wanna focus on. He's struggled in relationships for the last, I'd say, 15 years. And every single time he gets in a relationship, as his friend, I go, "That's not it."
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  "That's not it. That's not it." And every single time he gets with somebody else, I go, "Oh, that's not it either."And I, after this last relationship failed, I sat with him, and I- I'm trying not to like, you know, intervene too much, but I said, "Bro, I will know." I f- I feel like the same way that he knew when I'd found the right one, and he would liter- if I was to dump my current partner, he would literally reverse the decision.
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  He would write an executive order to reverse the decision 'cause he knows that person is exactly what was right for me. In the same way, I could literally draw a picture. I could tell you the occupation, the age of th- the right person for him-
6. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... based on knowing him and him being my best friend for 10, 15 years. But for some reason, he goes for everything opposite than that.
8. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Right.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  And I've always wondered this. I've always wondered, like, should we be picking our friends' partners for them? (laughs)
10. PBPaul C. Brunson
  No. I- if, if, as a society, we went back to our nearest and dearest family and social circle-
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
12. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... and I wanna emphasize, the people who we truly love, 'cause like, not all family's family.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
14. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Right? So if we had that circle making the decision for us, we would have much higher satisfaction rates in marriages, without question, or much higher satisfaction rates in, in partnerships. It's because of precisely what you said.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm. Reading a study here, it says, "A 2012 study published in the Journal of Comparative Family Studies found that couples in arranged marriages in collectivist cultures reported similar or higher levels of satisfaction over the long term compared to those in 'love marriages'."
16. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes. Yes. Go back. Eli Finkel, 80% of our marriages have a lower level of satisfaction today than, than, th- than any point in, in history. And, and you think about even we were, uh, you, you think about the emphasis that we place on the individual. This is, this is something that needs to really be emphasized, because-
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
18. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... the h- the more that we require our partner to deliver everything to us, the higher their bar becomes, the expectation, and the moment that they're not meeting that expectation, we're, we're not satisfied. Now, they could be delivering on nine out of ten things, but because our expectation is ten, we have low satisfaction, 'cause ultimately that's what satisfaction is, is satisfaction is really based on our expectation.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  So what do we do about that? Because
26:54 – 29:47
We Have to Lower Our Expectations of Our Partners
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  a lot of people will be able to relate to this idea that their partner is multiple things in their life, or that they feel like they are expected to be their partner's therapist, maybe financier, um, best friend, uh, sports, uh, buddy on the weekend to play Padel with, um, I don't know, life coach, et cetera. Some people will feel that pressure while they're also trying to run their own life. What do you do about it? 'Cause you can't come home and say, "Babe, listen, it's over. I'm only gonna be your boyfriend from now on."
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  A lot of people won't like this, but we have to lower our expectation of our partners. We really do. And, and, and wh- what I mean by this is first we have to begi- begin with determining what do we want out of our partnership? 'Cause if we go back, and we don't have to go back thousands of years, we can literally go back to my grandparents, the decisions were not, "Am I going to get all ten things from my partner?" It is three of the, the ten things, and I'll be satisfied with the three of the ten things. Why? Because I have a full community that I can go to of friends, coworkers, colleagues, people who, you know, in my running club that I can go to for, um, fr- for, for other facets of my life, confidants, intellectual stimulation, whatever it may be. So that's where it begins. What, what do you want from your marriage? Then the next step becomes, all right, are you then prepared to do the work required to sustain that relationship? You know, uh, the, the Gottmans, who I know you've, you've had on the, the podcast and are really the foremost experts in the world around couples therapy, right? John and Julie Gottman. They said something to me that was profound when I was talking to them, and that is, "We're all compatible with each other." And, and let that sit in for a second. It's like, okay, what does that really mean? What it means is that if I were to drop you with another human being on a desolate island and say, "That's it. It's just the two of you for the rest of your lives," you are going to form a very strong emotional bond, and chances are you're gonna form a very strong physical and sexual bond, right? Why? Because you are required, there's no other outlet but to make it work with them. Look at today. W- we don't feel like we have to make it work. There's countless options. We can just leave, right? And, and so the, the, this notion that we are compatible with everyone, I think, is profound, because what it means is that you can get through that. You can, you can increase your satisfaction by putting in the work.
29:47 – 33:42
We Have Countless Options in Today’s Society
1. PBPaul C. Brunson
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  I, um, I can totally relate to that. I remember working in a call center once upon a time, and I was broke and lonely, and as I worked in this call center, it was LateRoomz call center Cheetham Hill in Manchester-
3. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... um, I basically like fell in love with the girl sat next to me in the call center. Now listen, um, I've seen her since. I think-
5. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... ten, ten years later, she came to one of my meet and greets, which was-
7. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... she was called Rosie. I literally have... Uh, she's probably the first time she realized that I fell in love with her. But in the context of there not being many options, and me being a guy that basically had no other options, I wasn't going out to night clubs, I couldn't afford it, I just fell in love with someone who was in close proximity, and I just re- was really, really into her.
9. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  And it shocked me because objectively speaking, had I written down what my type was at that f-... period of my life. I wouldn't have written that, but just because we were held in close proximity for long enough, I found the v- the, the attraction.
11. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  It, it, the attraction came to be. Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in, and in fact, one of my friends who's struggling the most in relationships, her job is literally to meet people. That's like the, the, the base premise of her job, and she can't find anyone.
13. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Mm-hmm.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  And I think part of what we're s- what, what I'm seeing there is what we've described with having too many options, but what does someone do about that? Do they... Like, what's the, what's the actionable thing to do if you live in the modern world and you're struggling to find somebody, even though you realize that if you were held in a room with five total strangers, you'd probably fall in love with one of them?
15. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah. It's, it's tough, right, but it always begins with self and self-awareness. And I would literally start at, "Well, what is my attachment?" That will inform an incredible amount. If she goes back and does the work and realizes that she is avoidant, that will begin to fill in the gaps as to why maybe she's been emotionally distant in relationships-
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
17. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... why she feels like she doesn't need anyone, right, why people need to jump an even higher bar to be in a relationship with her. Start with your attachment, and realize that if you are avoidant or you are anxious, you can earn a secure attachment. And there's work that's involved, but you can do that, and by the way, you can do that without a therapist. It's always advisable to go with a therapist, but let- let's face it, the wait times for therapists, the, um, the, the, the, the cost for a therapist, they're, they're not... And l- also, the number of therapists on a per capita basis is, is decreasing, so they're not as accessible as often it, it, w- we, we make it a- them out to see. So that's one, is you wanna start with self. That's one. Secondly is really get grounded on the type of relationship that you want. And the reason why this is important is because therefore, you can make it clear what your boundaries are when you begin to engage with people. 'Cause I always say that if you don't assert your boundaries, you can take well-intentioned people and turn them into bullies, just as a result of not asserting your boundaries. So in order to know your, in order to assert your boundaries, you have to know your boundaries. So that's the second piece, is beginning to know, "Okay, well, w- what do I want? What do I want?" For example, there are hundreds of variations of relationships that you could have today. My grandmother, right, there was one, it was committed relationship, c- committed marriage until you die.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
19. PBPaul C. Brunson
  That was it. Now, you don't have to be married. You could live apart, but be together, see each other on weekends. You can decide, "I want ... We, we don't wanna have children." You can decide... Like, there are hundreds of variations. Be very clear on what your, what you want. And when I say, "Assert your boundaries," is assert what you are interested in right from the beginning. The- th- these three steps are incredibly important.
33:42 – 39:24
The Difference Between Men & Women When the Other Gets Sick
1. PBPaul C. Brunson
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  I wanna talk about the different variations-
3. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... of relationships and a lot of the sort of myths that keep us held in th- the sort of modern idea of what a relationship looks like.
5. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Okay.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  But you said something there which I, which sparked a thought that I had read in your book, um, when you said, "Till death do us part."
7. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  I read about this study that says that cancer research on heterosexual couples found that if a man becomes terminally ill and his wife becomes the caretaker, there is a 2.9% separation rate. If the woman is terminally ill and their male partner becomes the caretaker, they leave at a 21% rate, which basically means that men are approximately 624% more likely to separate from a woman if the woman gets sick.
9. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  And that was on page 48 of your new book, Keep Love.
11. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  What the fuck is going on there?
13. PBPaul C. Brunson
  That is alarming, shocking, and it was so alarming and shocking, I had to include the study in the book. For, for me, and, and I wrote this in the, in the chapter around love is conditional, and, and we have to understand that the myth that presents itself is that love is unconditional. It is, you know, if you find the right person, there's no conditions. That could be true with your children.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
15. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Right? Your, your, your, your child could go do something heinous, and I believe there could or would still be love for them. But that's not the case with our partners. And for us to be aware that there are conditions when we go into these relationships, that's the most important. So it's almost a warning sign, in particular, to women in that chapter, to say, "There, there are conditions." And unfortunately, when people have gone through and interviewed these men who have left the, the, the women at, at, at, o- on, on their deathbed, and even the women, 'cause it's 2.9% of women leave men, even the women who've left the men, what they will say is that they're no longer getting... Fill in the blank. They're no longer getting the emotional intimacy. They're no longer (laughs) getting the physical intimacy. They're no longer getting the, you know, you fill in the blank. And as a result of no longer getting this thing, and the thing is the condition, they're out.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  So why men, though?
17. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Right.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  600... Th- they're over 600% more likely to leave a terminally ill partner than women are.
19. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah. Y- you know, there's a disproportionate amount of the relationship that's placed on the physical side of the relationship, right? (sniffs)
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  Sex.
21. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Sex. Yeah. You're like, "Paul, say, say what we-"
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  Is that, is that actually what it is?
23. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Well, it's, it's not all about sex, right? It's not all about sex. But what it typically means is that there is a low level of satisfaction in the relationship, and as a result of there being a low level of satisfaction, and the low level of satisfaction could come from...... not having enough sex or not having the sex that they like. It could ha- it could be from there's a, you know, there's no respect, th- they don't feel like there's equity in the relationship, whatever it may be. But because there's already a low level of satisfaction, when they go into a place where the, the, the, uh, the partner is terminally ill, they're more ready to leave, right? This is normally what you see. What you see happen when you see, um, s- a partner leave another partner, where you see infidelity happening, is you see that there was already a low level of satisfaction. The level of satisfaction in the relationships not only dictate the survivability of the relationship, it dictates the survivability of us. There was a study done, James Coyne, this, this one blew my mind. He pulled 200 patients who had congenital heart disease, right? So not terminally ill, but as (laughs) close as you get to terminally ill. And he was able to look at the 200 and he broke down the group based on those who have a high level of satisfaction and those who have a low level of satisfaction in their relationship. Two years later, the couples who had a high level of satisfaction, the person in that partnership who had congenital heart failure, you know what? They died about 11% of the time. So 11%, they died. But those who had a low level of satisfaction, two years later, 45% of them had died. Think about that. Little greater than three times the likelihood of death because of the low level of satisfaction in the relationship. So, the satisfaction in the relationship is the key. And th- and this, this is part of what I've been trying to drive in this book and a lot of my messaging, is that we place too much value on longevity. It's ridiculous. When I sit down for interviews, typically the top, you see, and thank you for not asking me this, the, typically the first two or third question is, "Paul, how, so you've been married for how long?"
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
25. PBPaul C. Brunson
  "How long have you been married? How long have you been married?" And the idea is that because I've been married for 23 plus years-
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
27. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... that I'm successful in my marriage. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. The question should be, "How satisfied are you in your marriage or in your partnership?" And so we can't, we have to stop putting emphasis, uh, on, on the longevity and really focus on the satisfaction.
39:24 – 42:55
Satisfaction in Marriage Is the Most Important Thing
1. PBPaul C. Brunson
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  How satisfied are you in your marriage?
3. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Stephen, this is... (laughs)
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
5. PBPaul C. Brunson
  I hate you for asking this question. Spit it out. I am... So the reason why I have a hard time-
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  We spoke to your wife and we got her answer before-
7. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... so we'll just compare. (laughs)
9. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah, you tell me what she said first. (laughs)
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah. (laughs) Are you sure you wanna know on, on air?
11. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
13. PBPaul C. Brunson
  What, the reason why I hate trying to answer a question like this is because so many people would say, "Oh, I don't beli- I don't believe what this guy's saying." Truly, hand on my heart, word to my children, I have the highest level of satisfaction with Jill, you know, with my best friend today than ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. And I think the reason for this is because of the enormous amount of work that we put in. You know, a lot of people don't realize is that when I read a stat, Jill is typically right next to me. Last night, literally last night, we're in the bed and we are talking about the history of marriage and we're debating Clovis, the first of Franks and how he made an impact on relationships. We're always discussing these topics, and as a result of having the conversation around these topics, it helps us to be open, it helps us to dialogue, it helps us to debate, it helps us to have doubt, it helps us to have trust and autonomy, and therefore it helps us to have this strong level of communication and emotional intimacy that then feeds into all aspects of our life. Into our sex life, right? Into our ability to parent our, our, our children. Into our work, right? All of this feeds from having this strong connection, so the satisfaction is sky-high. And this is a topic that, it- it was funny 'cause I was like, "Hmm, I know Stephen does the research, so (laughs) he could've asked Jill." I am very confident Jill would say the same. The reason why is because we always check in with eash- i- with each other. We're always check, "H- how are you feeling right now?" Right? Are, do we feel like we're going in the right direction? You know, when I think about, do you have strong satisfaction in your relationship, the questions that always come to mind is, do you feel safe with your partner? Do you feel safe? Do you feel like you can express your true vulnerability to them, right? That's one. Secondly is, do you feel respected? You know, with John Gottman's research, number one, you know, he saw, he could predict divorce at 99-plus percent or 90-plus percent because of contempt or disrespect in the relationship. So, do you feel like you have respect? Another one, are you optimistic about where the relationship is going? Which suggests how much effort and work your partner is placing in the relationship. So many of us are hopeless about the, the, the future is because we know our, our, our partner's not doing anything to, to, to, to further the relationship. So, are you nurturing the relationship? Many of us are quick to focus on self-love now and nurturing ourselves.... but the question is how much nurture are you giving to the relationship? 'Cause that's a separate entity.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  You're
42:55 – 45:54
Should We Be Talking About Our Relationships?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  talking there about sort of the pillow talk with Jill about relationships and constantly it being part of the conversation in your household. One of the things that I was, I was pondering as you said that is should we spend more time talking about the relationship with our partner? Because I think, if I think about the relationship I'm in now, we spend a lot of time talking about the relationship.
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Um, whereas in previous relationships, it was kind of the elephant in the room all the time, so we never really had an opportunity or a forum to ask those questions, right? About unmet needs or, "Are you happy?" Et cetera, et cetera. And I just think that probably the missing piece for a lot of people in relationships is they just don't have a, a space in their week where they sit and talk about the relationship itself.
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes. So, so yes. Should we be speaking more? Absolutely. Would it save many partnerships? Absolutely. Would it increase the satisfaction? Absolutely. Do we h- not have enough time? I would say this becomes our cop-out. Like, we're so busy with life. Think about this. I'm so busy with life that I can't give the person that I plan to spend the rest of my life with time, right? We have to prioritize our relationship with our partner. We have to prioritize this. We have to figure out when we can build in time to talk, and we have to actually talk about the real things. You know, I'm willing to bet that most men don't even realize, especially in, in, in, in heterosexual relationships, heteronormative, uh, relationships, most men don't even realize that their partner doesn't even orgasm when they have sex. Like, you, you look at the orgasm gap, and you say, "Oh my God, you have men orgasming at 95% and women at roughly 65%," maybe a little bit higher in, in these committed relationships. That means that there's a significant percentage that never orgasm, and I bet you their partner has no idea. No, no idea. Why? 'Cause there's n- there hasn't been a conversation around it. Now, the issue is a two-way street. It's not only the man's issue that he needs to be aware and have the conversation, but she also needs to be able to tell him. But you know why she probably doesn't tell him? Because she doesn't wanna hurt his feelings. She has not, she's not been having an orgasm for the last 10 years, so she feels like if she brings it up now, it's going to be detrimental to the relationship, so she's trying to protect him, right? And sh- or, or, or she's embarrassed, or whatever it may be. He is completely oblivious and unaware, and they never talk about their sex life. A matter of fact, their sex life is a script, which is typically most people's sex life. It's just a script. It's two or three moves that are done, man orgasms, woman, woman doesn't, that's it. Think of how powerful it would be if they could just simply have dialogue and discussion.
45:54 – 51:35
We Will Be Attracted to Other People, and That’s OK
1. PBPaul C. Brunson
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  It's hard to start that behavior, though. I imagine in your relationship with Jill, y- you guys are pretty advanced, right? So if you're level one, what's level one in karate? Is it like a white belt?
3. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Oh yeah, white belt.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  If you're like a white belt in this stuff-
5. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... where there's been 10 years you and your partner just really don't talk about these things, it's kind of always been the elephant in the room, loads of words have been unsaid, what would you suggest as like a good starting point to, to get the ball rolling in this direction?
7. PBPaul C. Brunson
  All right. I like this. So baby steps. So in the book, I talk about how we have to normalize the fact that we will be attracted to people other than our partner.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
9. PBPaul C. Brunson
  No one wants to talk about that.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Hmm.
11. PBPaul C. Brunson
  No one wants to talk about, you know, "It's just my partner, that's it. I'm not looking at anyone else," right?
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Are you attracted to other people?
13. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Oh my, Steven, come on, man. Are you?
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs) You know what? I'll tell you one thing.
15. PBPaul C. Brunson
  No, no, no.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Have we fucked up? I hope
17. NANarrator
  (laughs)
18. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Abs- but, but a- but absolutely. Absolutely. And not only that, and there are different forms of attraction, you know, there's physical, there's, there's sexual attraction, there's, there's emotional attraction, but to your question of what do you do if you're level one in your relationship is you start with these baby steps. So Jill and myself, we had to start around this topic of attraction because I had a very hard time just thinking about my wife being attracted to someone else. I couldn't fathom it, the jealousy, the anxiety, the anxiousness. I have an anxious attachment style, so, so it just, it was just fear, right? And there, there are many different things that, that, that, that you can do, but I'll give two. One is that you just have to normalize that these behaviors are a part of our human experience. We'll all have physical attraction. Some of us will have sexual attraction. Some of us will have emotional attraction to people who are not our partners. If anyone denies it, they are lying, okay? This is one. We have to normalize this. We normalize it, then we begin having conversations around it. So what my wife and I used to, or did around this, and she, uh, will hate me for saying this, but I wrote, I wrote this in the book, so it's, it's, it's cool, is, um, we started talking about celebrities. Easy, low-level way, people who are arm-length distance, "Who do you find attractive?" Blah, blah, blah. I saw that my wife, as does I think 99.999% of, uh, women and men, (laughs) loves Idris Elba. She's like, "Idris is, is, is, is it," to the point where I was like, "Will you leave me for..." I think she will leave me for Idris Elba. (laughs) It's like she will definitely leave me for this man. But we begin having conversations around it. It becomes a bit of a joke, right? It is embedded in our, in, in the normalization of it, and then...... I begin to do what I call taking my thoughts to court. Take your thoughts to court, right? Whereas I would identify, okay, what is the issue? What's the emotion? It's actually fear. If Jill is talking about someone else, she was with... it was, it was fear. But then I- I... and then I- then I- then I draw them a few. What am I in fear of? Oh, I'm in fear of her, of her leaving me. She's just going to leave me, right? But then take that thought to court. What are the facts that can, that- that could... What are the facts that I have to support or discredit those feelings?
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
20. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Well, I've been with Jill for 20 plus years, right? She has never... We have a high level of satisfaction. It's normal to have attraction, right? So you take your thoughts to court, and then you could begin to recalibrate your perspective on the thing. So it gets to the point where... Do you know that every anniversary, Jill gets the biggest bouquet of flowers from Idris Elba? I write, "Love, Idris Elba." Th- so- so I- I- I'm writing this. So I've now... it's now... it's moved to a point where I couldn't even stand this idea, to now it's- it's so normalized, I'm- I'm... it's jokes a- about it. So- so it's very important for us to normalize, have these conversations, take our thoughts to court. And if we are... and we have to realize this, and I wrote about this in the book, is that it is also healthy to have doubts about your relationship W- we're- we're told that if you're in the greatest relationship, if you found your soulmate, you should never have doubts. Myth. Myth, right? It's healthy to have doubts, but there are healthy doubts and there's unhealthy doubts. If it is a doubt that is about, uh, the growth of your relationship, that's healthy to express that. If it is a doubt that is predicated in your own fear, or your anxieties, or your traumas, that's- that's- that's unhealthy. So to know that informs, you know, how- how- how- how- how Jill and I have- have- have tackled that idea of, "Let's normalize the conversation. Is this a healthy doubt? It is. Let's build this into- to- to our relationship." So Jill d-... so, uh, I know Jill's f- uh, adores Idris Elba, and she knows I would leave her for Beyonce.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
22. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  I mean, that's fair.
51:35 – 55:04
Women Are Better at Maintaining Their Connections Than Men
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah. I- I just... I can just imagine that I've got a certain type of listener who is more... how would you word it? Advanced in terms of the, like, belt. You know, when I talked about white belts and black belts. More advanced in their curiosity, their, um, intrigue, their willingness to, like, develop and evolve in the relationship. I would bet, and this is stereotyping, I understand, that it's typically women more than men that are, like, more open-minded to, like, learn, to grow, to deepen the bond. I think it's ty- typically women more than men. I would hazard a guess that it's more women buying your books than men.
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  And I- and I would hazard a guess that when I make conversations about love and relationship, it's typically, not always, 'cause I can kind of see the numbers, but typically more women that are trying to learn to deepen their relationships. So I imagine there's, uh, a l- a certain person in my audience that's sat there thinking, "I wanna do this. I wanna have these conversations with my partner. I wanna take down some of these walls and start talking about the lack of orgasms I've had in the last couple of years. I wanna talk about X, Y, and Z. But I know if I bring this conversation up to Dave, Dave's gonna, like, think I'm weird."
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  "He's gonna, like, roll his eyes and, like, put the football back on, and, um... And I feel a sense of dissatisfaction in this relationship, but because we just don't have a bridge of communication, I feel like I'm faced with a choice now. Do I just leave this guy, or do I just stick... tolerate it and put up with this? And that, like, first step to bridging the gap, what is it? Do I turn the football off and scream at him? Do I, do I send him the link to this podcast?" I think that's probably the best option. I think it's just sh- keep sharing the podcast. I think, I think s- sharing the podcast with everyone you know, I think, is probably the...
6. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  I'm joking.
8. PBPaul C. Brunson
  No. No. No. No. No.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
10. PBPaul C. Brunson
  N- no. No. (laughs)
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
12. PBPaul C. Brunson
  I'm laughing. (laughs) Oh, yeah. I was like... I was with you. I was like, "Th- this is, this is it." But... I was like, "He's really pushing this one." (laughs)
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
14. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah. Yeah. He said it five times. (laughs)
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
16. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Share the link. Truly-
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
18. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... this is the first step. S- uh, s- so say it's, uh... it's, uh, it's Lottie and Dave.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
20. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Okay? Lottie is listening to us right now and she wants to deepen her emotional connection with her partner, Dave. What does she do? She sends Dave a link to this podcast and she says, "Let's listen to this together. Let's have a date night. Let's listen to this together, and let's just talk about what's happening."
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
22. PBPaul C. Brunson
  You know what I've noticed with, um, with one of the shows that I co-host, Married at First Sight UK? What I'm so proud about is I'm stopped all the time by men.
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
24. PBPaul C. Brunson
  And they'll say, "Paul, I watch your show with my partner, and our kids watch it as well, and we debate what you're saying."
25. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
26. PBPaul C. Brunson
  "And sometimes we disagree with you, but sometimes we agree with you." And I think this is what we need, because just talking about it and having the conversation around it helps to contribute to awareness, which puts you on the path to developing skills, which then allows you to begin to heal, and ultimately, that's what therapy is. Therapy is healing. And so having the dialogue based on this podcast, based on a book, based on a television show is truly not just a first step. That's a, a significant step towards your black belt.
27. SBSteven Bartlett
  I am thinking about
55:04 – 58:34
Should We Be Getting Married?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  the history of relationships. I often wonder how many of the rules of relationships that we've been handed by society are now invalid, or maybe were never valid. So, you know, we have these sort of constructs of, like, marriage and monogamy and, um, even, like, heterosexuality, all these things that have been passed to us through religion and through history. I was looking at some stats about marriage, and it says that in 2019, marriage rates for opposite sex couples fell to their lowest on record since 1862. That's in the UK. And in the US, marriage rates have been declining since the early 1970s. I, I'm not married, but I spend a lot of time thinking about whether I should be or not. I actually had a conversation recently with my partner where I said, "Do you want to get married?" And it was abundantly clear that she does want to get married.
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Mm-hmm.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  But then I asked why, and really, it seems like it was really just more for the wedding than, than for some kind of legal contract that we sign with the government. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm really wondering, based on everything we know about history and the trade-offs of marriage, should I be getting married?
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes, because your partner wants to. (laughs)
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Is that, is that reason enough?
6. PBPaul C. Brunson
  But, but here... All right. S- all right, so, um, I think the institution of marriage, what you're going to see... This is my, my, my prediction, is, is that because nuclear families...
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  What do you mean by nuclear family?
8. PBPaul C. Brunson
  So having, um, two... Well, it's interesting, there's, there's different perspectives now o- on nuclear family, but I look at it as you have two partners-
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
10. PBPaul C. Brunson
  ... and children, and that creates the nuclear family. That becomes an economic unit which drives a society. And as that has disappeared, there's been less of a base to drive society, per many researchers. So as a result, what I believe is going to happen, as we see right now in Singapore, as we see right now in China, as we see right now in Japan, you're going to see governments heavily involved in incentivizing marriage. And marriage is already incentivized right now in terms of, uh, you know, tax benefits, uh, being able to, um, uh, you know, leave assets to your partner or leave assets to family members. So as a result of the decrease of marriage and decrease of, of nuclear families, you will see governments step up even more to incentivize. So you're going to see all types of benefits being thrown at people to, to, to, to, to get married. You know, especially as you s- not only see marriage rates decline, but as you also see birth rates declining as they, as they are. Now, your question around what d- what, what should you do is that, um, this is a question around values, and this is a question that I believe is very important to have early on. You know, I was saying, you know, when you meet someone, you should lay out exactly what you want. This is a, a very important question to have early, early on. Now, in terms of where you, w- where you are with your partner, I would say that if she is for, if she's pro this, and you are indifferent... Sounds like, it feels like you're indifferent, not anti but indifferent.
58:34 – 1:09:08
Marriages Should Be Harder to Get Into
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah, I think I am, I'm somewhat agnostic, um, to it. However, I can call out a bunch of downsides to getting married.
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Really? Like?
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Uh, well, again, I don't know 'cause I'm not married, so all the married people are, like, screaming at me right now.
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  And I know this 'cause they DM me. They've been DMing me for many, many years since I started the Diary of a CEO 'cause in some of those early episodes, I was really, like, not ag- I was really quite against it. But, um, over time, I've kind of developed my thinking here. I just wonder, I can't understand the first principles as to why having a, like, government or religious contract with somebody is going to increase the probability of success in the union of love. Um, there's obviously the issue with the prenup situation.
6. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  I actually don't have this concern with my, my partner. So I think she's, um-
8. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Mm-hmm.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  You've, I think you've met her, haven't you? You've met her, yeah.
10. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Oh, yeah. Uh, yeah.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  From a distance.
12. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes, from a distance.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah, I, I don't have a concern that she's gonna try and bankrupt me or that I might try and bankrupt her.
14. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Mm-hmm.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  Um, so that's not really a concern. Um, the whole charade of, like, doing a massive wedding I think is a little bit weird. I think, why can't we just have lots of events over the next 50 years where we bring our friends and family versus, like, one? I've also watched a couple of my friends at the moment who are getting married. The, the, like, two years of pain and heartache and, like, canceling date nights so that they can afford this one wedding day-
16. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... feels, like, highly illogical to me.
18. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  I've got one particular friend who is having to cancel so much of their, like, everyday joy to save up for this one big event, which is stressing them both out, and I don't think they're gonna have... Well, I don't think he's gonna have a great time at the wedding anyway 'cause he seems so stressed by it all. I, I just... I, I sometimes hear that people can't, like, get out of their marriage without having to, like, file a divorce, um-
20. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... thing with like the, with, through lawyers and-
22. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... going to court and battling it out in court. And I just think you should be free to leave if you want to leave. I don't know, I just think-
24. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Mm-hmm.
25. SBSteven Bartlett
  Like... (laughs) This is a terrible analogy and completely unrelated but, like, in football, many of the problems we see with my favorite club, Manchester United, at the moment is we've got people on five-year contracts who we just can't get rid of. And, like, they want to go, we want them to go, but 'cause we signed these long contracts with them, it's, like, incredibly difficult. And you, now these players are being, like, thrown in the back room, and they're not playing football, and we're, like, just completely ignoring them because we can't get out the contract.
26. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
27. SBSteven Bartlett
  So I don't know, I just think-
28. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. All right.
29. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
30. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Can we talk about this?
1:09:08 – 1:10:09
What Predicts a Successful Marriage?
1. PBPaul C. Brunson
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  What is it that predicts a successful marriage, in your view?
3. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Well, once again, w- what is success? Is it... To, to me, success is high satisfaction. High satisfaction is, has a strong correlation around well-being. Uh, Dr. Carol Ryff, I think is the OG of well-being. She doesn't get enough credit. She created, uh, a model called the Six Dimensions of Psychological Wellbeing. And in essence, if we are working to increase each one of these dimensions, so for example, one is having a vision of your life. Like, what is that vision that you have for life? And the question though is, do you feel like you are actively in pursuit of that vision? If you don't feel like you know what your vision is or you're not in pursuit of it, you're going to have lower well-being, right? So the higher well-being that you have individually, the higher satisfaction you have in your relationship, the more successful your
1:10:09 – 1:13:38
What Qualities Should I Look for in a Partner?
1. PBPaul C. Brunson
  relationship is.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Are there, like, fundamental qualities that I should be looking for in a good partner?
3. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Oh, yeah. I mean, there's a million, but the, the, the core, the, the core that I l- I like to write about is, and I, and I'll actually, I'll, uh, I'll even synthesize it. You want to have a partner who is aware of their well-being and who is focused on their well-being. This, this is in- this is incredibly important, because one of the most profound re- uh, bits of research that I, I feel like I include in the book is that most of us believe that having alignment in the values of our partner is the most successful or is the high, is the number one determinant of having a successful partnership. We think it's about values. We're told it's about values. We're fed values. Which, by the way, goes back to... You know where that goes back to? Religion. You know how? Have you heard of you need to be equally yoked?
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  No.
5. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Oh, you haven't heard of this?
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  No, no, no.
7. PBPaul C. Brunson
  You're not reading your Bibles, Stephen, come on. (laughs)
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  No, 'cause I don't, don't expose me. (laughs)
9. PBPaul C. Brunson
  All right, so the Bible talks about you have to have a partner, you have to find a partner who's equally yoked. What does that really mean? Equally yoked comes from oxen, right, so two, you have a, a, one ox here, one ox here, they're tethered together, they're plowing the land. If they're walking lockstep, they can plow the land. If you have one going off this way, one going off this way, you can't plow the land. You can't produce. So the Bible says you need to have a partner who is equally yoked. Pastors then interpreted that over the years to be what? Values. You need to have a partner who shares your values, has the same religion, has the same accent. This is how we became regimented in class. This happened century after century after century, right? We get to today, you ask anyone on the street, if we grab 10 people, nine out of 10 would s- and, and we said, "How important are values?" Nine out of 10 would say, "Values is everything." What? Values change. They change. I value things much differently today than I did 10 years ago. Our values change. They're not constant. We need to throw away values. Are they important? Yes. Are they the most important? No. So therefore, let's de-emphasize the focusing on finding someone who matches all of our values. Instead, well-being, key. Are they focused on their well-being? That's one. Two, yeah, values is important, but you know what, what, what's, what's, what's equally, if not more, is, you know what? How open-minded are they? Like, how, how, how, how much do they lean in? How, how curious are they? And then the third is, how resilient are they? Because having a relationship with anyone means tough times. So are they able to bounce back, or when things get tough, do they just lay on their back? So if you have a partner who's resilient, you have a partner who's open-minded, you have a partner who's focused and nurturing their well-being, y- you have a great partner.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  What about ambition? Does that matter?
11. PBPaul C. Brunson
  I, I think ambition is a value set.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Okay.Okay.
13. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah, I was just wondering 'cause a lot of people would say that they want that in a partner. But just by, I mean, like, running the mental numbers, not everybody can be ambitious. And people that aren't necessarily
1:13:38 – 1:28:09
The Demand Doesn’t Reflect What’s in the Dating Market
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  hugely ambitious also find love and keep love.
2. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Mm-hmm.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  But when you ask someone what they're looking for, they'll tend to have a preference towards someone who's ambitious or goal-orientated. One of the things we talked about, kind of in between the lines, was how society has changed. And one of the ongoing conversations in dating at the moment is around how women are struggling to find compatible men.
4. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Mm-hmm.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Because women are more educated. I think there's more women graduating with college degrees now. The top 10% of men seem to be having all of the sex, according to some studies that I read, a lot of the sex. And then there's this bottom 50% of men that are somewhat disenfranchised because they, they're not getting the attention. They're probably turning to things like pornography. Women are dating up and to the right, I'm told. So women... I rea- did read a study that said the majority of women are still looking for a man who's earning more than them, but in a world of equality, which we all agree is a good thing, where women are more educated now, there's, there isn't enough men up and to the right anymore.
6. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  So there's this qu- sort of disparity between, you know, what women are looking for, but actually what's available in the market, potentially.
8. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Mm-hmm. The, these, these are all facts. However, we have to in- we have to interrogate the, th- this, this, this data. But more so, I think we have to interrogate the narrative that's being handed to us. So I feel like the, the narrative that's being handed us today is that, you know what? The top 20% of men or 10% of men, they're good, but the bottom 80%, you suck. That couldn't be further from the truth. And I think we have to acknowledge, and this is where, uh, you know, two things could be true. One, we live in a patriarchal society, absolutely. Absolutely. But do we need to extend more grace to our men? Absolutely we do. Are men lonelier than they ever have been? Absolutely. Are men confused? Absolutely, right? Are men being misled? Absolutely. Let's extend more grace to our men. What does that mean? That means being aware that we do live in a loneliness epidemic, being aware that less than 27% of men have a friend that they can feel, w- is a confidant, that 0% of them now feel like they have someone who they can go to at 3:00 AM in the morning. It's being aware of these things. It is saying, "You know what? I, um, can appreciate other traits and characteristics outside of how much you earn or how tall you are," right? These are... It, it's important to be able to understand. And you just asked me, you said, "W- what, what are the most..." I said nothing about how much money someone makes, nothing about how tall they are, right? But at the same time, what we have to understand is the narrative that is handed to... about women is that all women are looking for this six-foot-plus CEO, right, who's making over 100,000 pounds or dollars a year. And that is also not the case.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  This study here says, "Despite advancements in gender equality, research indicates that better-educated women still tend to prefer husbands who earn more than th- they do." That's from the Institute for Family Studies. "An analysis of online dating behaviors across 24 countries found that women are more selective than men, showing a marked preference for men, um, with higher incomes and education levels."
10. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Which, which again proves this up-and-to-the-right thing. But there's just not enough men up and to the right, so there's gonna be a lot of women that are somewhat dissatisfied, according to this.
12. PBPaul C. Brunson
  All right, so, so the challenge if, if I'm really interrogating this is, one is, it's talking about highly educated women. So we know that highly educated women are on, on average dating hypergamously, right, which is what you're talking about, up. So someone who's dating someone who has the same or higher level of education, the same or higher level of financial resources. And why is that? Because that's the script that society handed to women to say, "The only way you can survive is by finding a man who can deliver this to you," right? There's th- and, and I think we have to accept where it came from. It was this terrible society of, "You know what? You're not going to be safe unless you find a man who could provide." But you fast-forward to t- to today, a large percentage of high, highly educated women are dating this way. But that's not all women. The other part is, yes, are women beginning to out-earn men and out-educate men? Absolutely. In certain cities, not in every, everywhere of the world. Men on average still earn more income. S- so, so it, so if you look at, at, at, at the, the narrative that's handed to us, you could say, "Well, you know what? Men on average still s- still earn more." But my point is this. My point is that I think we all need to reevaluate what it is that we want. No longer do we need to have a partner, for most of us, or should I say, this is me speaking out of privilege, for many of us in the West, no longer do we need to have a partner for pragmatic reasons. If you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and you just divided it into three categories, you would say the bottom le- the bottom, kind of, rung is all of our psychological and physical needs, food, shelter, right? Then that, kind of, middle rung is belonging and connection. And the top rung is self-evolved. Self... You know, we wanna be... You know, or, you know, well, self-evolved, living our best self, contributing the most that we ever could to this world.... marriage and partnership and selecting a partner was largely based on that lower rung, all the way through to the 1960s. That's like yesterday, if you think about how long we've l- lived.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  But isn't that evolution as well? Because you see the same thing in the animal kingdom with, like, the orangutan, which has, like, 98% the same DNA as us. They still s- select for survival f- factors.
14. PBPaul C. Brunson
  S- so I think what's interesting wh- when you look at, uh, different mammals and the, uh, the- the evolutionary biology is that there's lots of similarities, but then there's also lots of traits that are different, you know? So it's- it's one of those where we have to appreciate that as- as homo sapiens, we are unique, and we live in a structure that we have largely created ourselves. We're talking, we're debating about the institution of marriage. I mean, marriage didn't exist for the vast majority of our existence.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  But this golden rule thing, you told me about this.
16. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yeah.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  And you told me that it's cross-cultural.
18. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes. S- so it is, but-
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  And this golden rule thing, please explain it for people, but for me, that is evidence that there's still an evolutionary component to selection for men and women. And I read, I was reading this study that said women, um, almost 50% of women prefer to date only men that are taller than themselves, while only 13% of men prefer to date only women that are shorter than themselves. And another study revealed that women are most satisfied when their partner is approximately eight inches taller, whereas men are most satisfied with a height difference of about eight centimeters taller than their partner.
20. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  So women clearly have a preference here, a significant amount of them, to dating a man that is bigger than they are.
22. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Yes. But c- all right. Yes. This is so good. All right. Couple things here.
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
24. PBPaul C. Brunson
  Do we have these preferences? Absolutely. So a lot of this handed us through evolutionary and our biology? Absolutely. Is most of it handed to us through socialization? Definitely. Do we change as we increase our well-being? Yes. So here's my point. If you were to go back and say, "Zendaya, look." If you go back 10 years and say, "Zendaya, look, would you prefer to date a man that is taller than you?" I would say there's a, there's a good chance she would say, "I would prefer it, yes." Has that been her result? No. Does she appear to be incredibly happy and satisfied? Yes. Right? With Tom Holland. That's from my opini- th- fr- from, from, from our outside looking in, yes. Why could that have been the case? Because she grew up being handed a script. She grew up, the Disneyfication of relationships. She saw the prince and how large the prince always was in comparison to the princess. She saw that the prince was able to pick up the princess. Like, she saw all of these things, she believed all of these things, and then as she became more mature, as she realized that she doesn't need anyone's validation, as she understood the things and the traits that she loved, she was like, "This Tom Holland guy is hot."
25. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah, but t- is th- that is an exception, obviously.
26. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs)
27. SBSteven Bartlett
  Because, and also, Tom Holland's got 30 million in the bank, so... (laughs)
28. PBPaul C. Brunson
  (laughs) Yeah, but- but- but this does happen. You hear the short kings.
29. SBSteven Bartlett
  It- it happens, but it's- it's the exception, isn't it? It's not the rule.
30. PBPaul C. Brunson
  It is. And you know why? Also that's the exception. And I agree. I'm with you. It's the exception, because most of us have poor well-being. Most of us have low self-esteem. Most of us do. I would argue most adults have low self-esteem, mid to low self-esteem. And what does that mean? It means that we need the validation of others. Right? And this is the reason why I always say, it goes back to us.

Episode duration: 2:36:18

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Intro

Who Is Paul C Brunson?

How Has Love Evolved Since You Started This?

Why Are People Struggling to Find Love?

The Danger of Comparison

Racism Within Dating

Are Arranged Marriages More Successful?

Your Friends Usually Know If You're With the Right Person

We Have to Lower Our Expectations of Our Partners

We Have Countless Options in Today’s Society

The Difference Between Men & Women When the Other Gets Sick

Satisfaction in Marriage Is the Most Important Thing

Should We Be Talking About Our Relationships?

We Will Be Attracted to Other People, and That’s OK

Women Are Better at Maintaining Their Connections Than Men

Should We Be Getting Married?

Marriages Should Be Harder to Get Into

What Predicts a Successful Marriage?

What Qualities Should I Look for in a Partner?

The Demand Doesn’t Reflect What’s in the Dating Market

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