The Diary of a CEORainn Wilson: "I was so unhappy during The Office!" (Dwight Schrute)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
145 min read · 28,997 words- 0:00 – 1:35
Intro
- RWRainn Wilson
We're gonna talk about The Office, I promise.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
Stick around, folks. (bell ringing) Rainn Wilson! Actor, writer, producer, you know as- Dwight Schrute, assistant regional manager. One of the most iconic characters- In TV history. Hold on, Michael, I am coming. (dramatic music) I experienced a lot of pain in my life. Neglect, abuse, abandoned. And then with anxiety and depression and addiction, I remember getting these anxiety attacks that would leave me shaking on the floor and sweating, and I thought I was dying. Waking up at 3:00 in the morning going, "Why should I keep living?" But this is the curious thing. I'm grateful for it. There's a reason why so many comedians come from painful backgrounds, because comedy shifts your perspective away from pain and trauma. Here's your choice, you can kill yourself or do comedy, and that was my path. It's my greatest dream come true.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You said, "When I was in The Office, I spent several years mostly unhappy because it wasn't enough."
- RWRainn Wilson
I wanted more opportunities, I wanted more money. And as long as we wanna promote the ego satisfaction, we'll never be happy. We all have a shadow, and it's always there. And it's self-important and righteous and entitled, but I'm not going to get rid of those aspects of myself by keeping that shadow at arm's length. You need to embrace and accept and love one's shadow. Sit the shadow on the lap almost like a ventriloquist dummy. Hello. Speaker 2 You, diary of a CEO. Get a new T-shirt, idiot.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
That's a wrap. (dramatic music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think this is fascinating. I looked at the back end of our YouTube channel, and it says that since
- 1:35 – 3:12
Growing up around missionaries in the jungle
- SBSteven Bartlett
this channel started, 69.9% of you that watch it frequently haven't yet hit the subscribe button. So, I have a favor to ask you. If you've ever watched this channel and enjoyed the content, if you're enjoying this episode right now, please can I ask a small favor? Please hit the subscribe button. Helps this channel more than I can explain. And I promise, if you do that, to return the favor, we will make this show better and better and better and better and better. That's a promise I'm willing to make you if you hit the subscribe button. Do we have a deal? (upbeat music) Let's start with your context. Um, I always think the, the earliest years are the most important. So, could you take me back to your earliest context and give me the factors that I need to understand to understand you?
- RWRainn Wilson
Sure. Uh, couple of key pieces in my background that have made me who I am and, uh, led me to lead the life that I live, uh, are, my mom, uh, took off when I was a year and a half, uh, lived with my, with my dad. And we were members of the Bahá'í Faith, uh, which, in a nutshell, is the newest of the world's religions. Uh, there's about six million Bahá'ís around the globe. It's the second most widespread religion, so wherever you go in the world, there's gonna be Bahá'ís. You know, you go to Mongolia or Thailand or, you know, Botswana or whatever, there's gonna be Bahá'í communities. And after my dad had been kind of essentially abandoned or felt abandoned, they got divorced,
- 3:12 – 5:33
I was filled with depression & anxiety
- RWRainn Wilson
uh, we moved to the jungles of Nicaragua when I was three years old. Here was this abandoned kind of toddler kid living in the, literally the jungle. Uh, and my dad was an abstract painter and science fiction writer, and Bahá'í, and, uh, that's, that's how I grew up. And then, when it was kinda around kindergarten time, first grade time, we moved back to Washington State. And, um, those are some key pieces. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In your 40s, you started to look back at your childhood, um, and, and understand ... I heard this in an interview you did, I think it was with Chase Jarvis?
- RWRainn Wilson
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
On his show. And one of the things you said is, "When I look back at my childhood, it was filled with depression and anxiety," that you probably didn't ... It seems like you didn't realize at the time, but hindsight's given you that clarity.
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What were the hallmarks of that? What were the symptoms of that? And what, do you, do you have any understanding of the causes of that at such a young age?
- RWRainn Wilson
Yes. Uh, 22 years of therapy has given me a lot of insights into the causes of that. So, you know, you've got an abandoned toddler. That, that'll, that'll fuck you up. Um, I don't know if I can swear on your podcast.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You can swear. We swear.
- RWRainn Wilson
All right. Um, do, uh, do Brits swear? Mm. Yeah?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, the funny ones.
- RWRainn Wilson
Uh, and then, um, you know, it was this weird kind of, uh, gaslighting mind fuck, 'cause I just spent five minutes describing the Bahá'í Faith, right? And this, these beautiful ideas and prayers and meditations and, about world peace and finding love and connection and service. And then, in my family, my dad remarried, uh, my stepmom, uh, who pretty much raised me, and they lived in a loveless marriage, a hollow, empty marriage. So, I come back from the jungles of Nicaragua at five or six, my dad's remarried, we're living in suburban Seattle in Washington State. And we're going to all these Bahá'í meetings, we're singing, we're doing Kumbaya, we're holding hands, we're praying, we're meditating, we're reading holy scripture from all over the world and talking about love. And yet, here's this loveless shell
- 5:33 – 10:06
What have you learned from childhood trauma?
- RWRainn Wilson
of a house. So, that's what I grew up in. So, you know, addiction is something that I've, I've struggled with. I've struggled with depression, I've struggled with anxiety. Uh, I've, uh, struggled on a lot of different, uh, levels in my life, a lot of, uh, alienation, and, uh, it's born of this Petri dish that I grew up in. Maybe I was also wired for it. You know, I've, I have alcoholics that run on both sides of my family for generations. But, uh-... that'll, that'll mess you up.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What have you learned about the nature of ch- childhood trauma and how delicate children are? I've learned so much from speaking to people on this podcast about it, and how, and it's ... (sighs) If I listen to too many of these episodes, I might be scared to be a parent because it's so interesting how such, uh, small interpretations can leave really, um, lasting impressions on a child about the nature of the world.
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I sat with Gabor Maté, and he's talked about how children are basically narcissists, and how they interpret everything as about them.
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, there's an argument over there, a- a baby will think it's, it's about the baby. But what have you learned about through your years of therapy, but also your own experiences?
- RWRainn Wilson
Well, I experienced a lot of pain in my life, uh, and a lot of suffering, uh, with anxiety and depression and addiction. And as I kind of dove into recovery and to the therapeutic process, I can pin that squarely on a lot of, you know, gross imbalances and trauma that I suffered as a child. So, there's that. Um, we all have that to some degree. And it's important to excavate and honor, uh, the pain that we went through and the, and the lies that we were told, the gaslighting we might have undergone. Um, there's, there's religious trauma that we undergo as well. There's all kinds of different traumas that we suffer. And this is the, this is the curious thing. I'm grateful for it because you know what? If I had had a happy, well-balanced childhood, I, you know, I don't know what my career would have been, but it certainly wouldn't have been an actor, and it certainly wouldn't have been a successful actor. So these, these confluences of, of pain and, and difficulty and, and abuse and neglect, um, they caused me a lot of suffering later on. But at the same time, they caused me to be driven, to try and be the best version of myself. They set me on a spiritual path, uh, to really deeply explore the world's, uh, spiritual traditions, and to try and connect with my higher power and to go on a journey of self-discovery, and then to take what I've learned and to share that with others. And they, they made me funny. So, there's a really interesting thing I heard, uh, Dr., uh, Arthur Brooks from Harvard University, who you should have on this show, uh, speak about. Uh, and he talked about how the opposite of pain and trauma is, is humor. He's, he was saying, like for instance, if you're feeling, uh, depressed, let's say, we all know you fill that with gratitude. And when you have a gratitude journal, and you share gratitude, experience gr- gratitude, meditate on gratitude, it, the other stuff evaporates when you, when you shift your focus and your perspective to what you're grateful for, what brings you hope and joy and purpose and meaning, even if it's a small thing like, you know, this delicious cup of tea right here. So, the same, uh, mechanism works in comedy that ... And there's a reason why so many comedians come from painful backgrounds, because comedy is what you plug in to shift your perspective away from pain and trauma, just like gratitude takes you away from, from depression. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, you'll see time and time again these amazing, you know, the, the great comedians of the age, you know, and how much suffering they underwent in their lives. But comedy became th- the necessary, uh, thing to plug into their perspective in order to carry forward. It's like, uh, here's your choice. You kill yourself or do comedy.
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, um, and then they do comedy, and, and,
- 10:06 – 15:08
Family dramas: “I had 0 tools to navigate my emotions"
- SBSteven Bartlett
you know, you think about so many of, of the great ones, uh, Jim Carrey, you think about Robin Williams, they talk about mental health in comedy. We did a, for SoulPancake, we did a documentary, um, called Laughing Matters about the intersection of comedy and mental health. And so in this sense too, I'm grateful for what I went through because I wouldn't be here today having this incredible conversation with you had I not gone through that, those, those difficulties, that neglect, that abuse, and that gaslighting that I underwent as a kid. When you say the word abuse, you mean the gaslighting?
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah. Uh, you know, I don't want to get into stories. There was, you know, there was some, there was, there was lots of different kinds of abuse. Yeah. Yeah. So ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
And if I'd, if I'd met you 15, 16 years old, who would I, who would be the man that I met at that point when your mother came back into your life? You said you needed her at that point.
- RWRainn Wilson
At 15 or 16, I was, uh, gawky and self-hating and, um, uh, innocent and completely cut off from my emotions, and had ... My, uh, dad and step-mom had zero emotional tools. Uh, the only kind of expression of emotion that I experienced in my household was rage. And, uh, and then either rage or, like again, these spiritual Bahá'í gatherings where we were singing and praying (laughs) and meditating. So it was, um ... But the idea of, you know, sadness, frustration, disappointment, uh, all these "negative emotions" and how to navigate them, there were ... I had, I had zero tools. So, I'll never forget sitting down with one of the first meetings with my mom, and, uh, we- it was at a Denny's restaurant in Yakima, Washington. And, uh, and she said, "Rainn, you seem very tightly wound. What's, what's going on? How is your heart?" And I just started sobbing. I just started ...... bawling. I mean, it was pretty unsightly at the, at the Denny's, um, uh, waiting for the Grand Slam breakfast. And, um, there's a corporate sponsor for you, potential. Uh, and just, like the, that kind of crying of the huh, huh, huh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
... kind of the heaving sobs, and that's what I'm talking about. That's the kind of connection that I needed. Like, finally someone was asking me what was in my heart, you know? And that began a kind of a process of having conversations about human emotions, um, that I was so ignorant of, um, that we're all so ignorant of, and, uh, it helped me immensely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you said that, that the, the only emotion you understood was, like, rage and then this real happiness at the spiritual gatherings, it made sense, the gaslighting-
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because it's such a confusing message to send a young person. It's, uh, this, this juxtaposition between, like, and argh.
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I remember, I remember times, uh... And I don't really blame my stepmom for this, because my dad was not a good husband to her, and, uh, there was a lot that was out of balance, and, and he could be incredibly narcissistic. And, um, but I remember having, we would have a Bahá'í gathering, let's say, at our house, and people were gonna come over, and we were gonna pray or we were gonna study holy writings or whatever people do at Bahá'í gatherings. And, uh, they would have a fight, and she would be raging in the kitchen and slam dishes down and break the dishes, and they would be fighting, and then, bah, ding-dong, (laughs) people would come over, like, "Hi, I brought flowers," and, "Here's a, here's some cookies." And, and they would come in, and my stepmom would then march across the living room, klunk, klunk, klunk, klunk, klunk, to the bedroom door, and go shabam, and slam the bedroom door. And the people would be there in the doorway, and my dad would go, "Come on in. Thanks so much for coming." And there was never any kind of, uh, you know, you know, acknowledging what had just happened, and that was... And so for an eight-year-old, nine-year-old, 10-year-old, being in that milieu, you're like, "What the hell is going on?" (laughs) Is this how people act? Is this how we're supposed to act? We have all these emotions, but we don't talk about them, and, and then we go and we, and we pray together. So, you know, this led me to a very long period of time where I was completely alienated from my faith in my, in my 20s, and, um, I didn't want anything to do with religion or spirituality, certainly not morality, um, 'cause I just saw the hypocrisy in it. And that's when I really started undergoing a,
- 15:08 – 18:24
How did acting find you?
- RWRainn Wilson
a spiritual crisis, a mental health crisis. Things started breaking down for me, and that's when I decided to kind of reexamine these ideas as a potential way out, as a potential path forward for my own transformation, for my personal healing. And, and I was ultimately able to come back to the religion of my youth and find great peace and solace and meaning in it, um, after a long journey, uh, through my 20s and early 30s.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That trauma and experience from your youth, how does that play into you becoming an actor? Because you said you wouldn't have been... You're grateful because you don't think you would have been an actor or the actor that you are without that experience. What is the w- I'm trying to figure out where acting fit into that. You talked about comedians using comedy as a, as kind of like a life raft away from their pain. Why was acting the thing that found Rainn?
- RWRainn Wilson
I don't know, and there's the genetic component as well-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
... that my birth mother was also an actor and interested in acting. I don't know exactly. Um, e- even before, I thought, like, oh, you could be an actor, or you can make a living in an actor, or you could train as an actor. Like, I didn't even know, like, I wanna do that, but it's like, whatever that is is magical and amazing, and I was drawn to it like a magnet. So, I don't know, and then, you know, I, I took my first acting class. Um, we had moved to Chicago from Seattle, and I went to a, a high school that had a really good, uh, theater program, and I took my very first acting class. And, uh, I did, uh, a scene where, uh, you're supposed to pretend that you're in your bedroom and that no one's watching, right? So, I put on this Elvis Costello song, Mystery Dance, and I brought in my, my record player from home, and I brought in some stuff from my room, and I put on the record of Mystery Dance by Elvis Costello, and I started just thrashing around and just being ridiculous and lip syncing and jumping around and flopping on the floor and stuff like that. And it, I was a brand new student. This was, like, in the first week of, at this new school, and it brought the house down, and the, the 15 to 16-year-old that I said that was kind of pimply and gangly and emotionally cut off and self-hating, um, all of a sudden, people were patting me on the ba- back and punching me in the shoulder and saying, "Oh my God, that was so great," and high-fiving me, and all of these, like, cute girls from junior year in, in high school were like, "Oh, where are you from? You're from Seattle? Amazing. Will you come sit with us at our lunch table?" And, like, and, and here I was, this kid from suburban Seattle where I had been on the chess team and played the bassoon and been on Model United Nations, and I'd barely talked to a girl. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
And, uh, and then I was like, "All right, I'm in. Whatever this is, I, I want this... I'm good. This is it. Forget all that other stuff. Screw the bassoon. Screw the chess team."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
"I'm in with the drama geeks," and, uh-And that was my path. So, so part of it is not so noble.
- 18:24 – 25:41
What triggered your mental health to spiral?
- RWRainn Wilson
Part of it is, um, I went where there was acceptance, where there was love, where I had some skill. I could make people laugh, and where I got attention from the opposite sex. Hello.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Tends to be the case for most of us. Um, 20 years old, you graduate with a degree in drama? 20-
- RWRainn Wilson
Uh, 23.
- SBSteven Bartlett
23.
- RWRainn Wilson
Close.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then you speak of in 1991, when you're 25, 25 years old, that's really when you had your, as you say, your spiritual crisis.
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was, was there a catalyst for that? It seems to, it seems that at that point in your life is when you started experiencing anxiety attacks in a really debilitating way. Was there a catalyst for that? Was there anything in your life that was, was absent? Or was it just, do you think it was just things catching up with you from your earliest years?
- RWRainn Wilson
Um, well, I don't know about a catalyst, but I will paint the picture that I'm out of drama school. I'm getting a few little acting jobs here and there, but they're not paying anything. I'm living with a friend in an abandoned beer brewery in Brooklyn, uh, essentially kind of legally squatting. But we didn't have heat. We didn't have a shower. There were rats scuttling around. And I was working in this bar where I'd get off work at 4:00 AM, and, uh, I had a roommate, and we were living out there, and I was really directionless. I started really experimenting with, uh, a lot of drugs and alcohol. And I was pretty rudderless, and, um, uh, and I started getting hit with really crippling anxiety attacks. So, I wasn't in the most healthy living environment, right? So, but at the same time, I remember getting these anxiety attacks that would leave me literally shaking on the floor and sweating, and I thought I was dying, and I was like about to call 911 like five different times. And heart palpitations, sweating, and, um, I, I talked to a doctor at, at, at NYU about them, and they said, "Oh, these are just anxiety attacks." So, I knew that that's what they were, but I didn't really know anything about them, and, uh, I started getting really depressed. And, um, so there wasn't really like an event, but circumstances provided the perfect environment for kind of a mental health breakdown of someone who's 25 years old.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how long did that chapter, that period of your life last, where you were having anxiety attacks and you were rudderless?
- RWRainn Wilson
Um, I would say five or six years. Yeah. There were some... Things got better. I started working a little bit more. Uh, I had, uh, a relationship with my girlfriend, who's now my wife. We've been together for 32 years. Um, and that was great. But even that, even a better apartment and a nice relationship couldn't save me from some of what was going on. And we didn't... In the '90s, we didn't really have words for a mental health breakdown or mental health issues or crisis. You know, it was... And people didn't really go to therapy. You didn't really, you couldn't really afford it. It was, that was like for rich people, like Woody Allen or something. Um, so, uh, it, it stayed. Things got nominally better, but I still, uh, was, uh, pretty, uh, depressed and, and frustrated and overwhelmed and just generally alienated. The kind of waking up at 3:00 in the morning with just wide awake, staring at the ceiling, going like, "What the fuck does life mean? Why am I here?" What, you know, "Why should I keep living? What's... How do I find meaning?" And, um, just that, uh, that, that just anguish and disconnection, uh, at a really core level.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You asked yourself that question. "Why, why should I keep living?"
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah, mm-hmm. And it wasn't... At that point, I mean, I've had some suicidal ideation over the years. That wasn't a time when I was actively thinking about ending it. But it really was kind of, again, one of these life's big questions, life's deep questions that I've been kind of poking at in my various books, of like, "Why should we keep living?" What, what is the purpose? Is it... Because one of the odd things, Steven, was that I was, in certain regards, living my, a life beyond my wildest dreams.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
Here was that kind of abused and gaslit kid with low self-esteem from suburban Seattle, um, who kind of hated himself and, and really had trouble fitting in socially in any way, shape, or form. Here I am living in New York City, beautiful girlfriend, working as an actor in the theater, not making much money, and it was only fitfully. But still, that's a big leap to go from where I was, and, and yet I wasn't happy. So, there was this odd disconnect, because I think societally we're taught like, "Hey, you find the thing you love to do. You go study it. You put in your time. You work at it. And you, you're gonna start working, and yeah, you're gonna start slow, but it's gonna build. And then you're gonna find incredible joy and purpose and meaning in your work." And I was doing that work in the theater, and I was getting to be an actor, and I was getting paychecks as an actor, which is an incredible-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
... uh, experience. Uh, but I was still chronically dissatisfied, and it didn't make any sense. Because society had been telling me this thing for a decade or two, and I, um, I sh- I felt like I shouldn't be this, uh, uh, chronically dissatisfied, but I am.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When did that reach its peak?
- RWRainn Wilson
Um, a-ah, th- it's hard to say. It, it came in waves throughout my mid-20s and, and early 30s. And it- that's what prompted me, and this is why pain can be such a valuable teacher. And in fact, Arthur Brooks just had a column today out in The Atlantic where he was talking about pain, and anxiety, and depression does not mean that you have a mental health issue. Those are, those are normal, standard, uh, uh, aspects of being a human being. So- but my pain prompted me to go on a spiritual quest, and I'm really grateful for that, like I said.
- SBSteven Bartlett
To go on a spiritual quest. Depression, and pain, and anxiety, and those things were signals telling you something.
- RWRainn Wilson
Something's out of balance. How are you gonna bring yourself into balance? How are you gonna make sense of all this? And at the time, there weren't podcasts on-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
... positive psychology, and there weren't- I mean, I guess there were some self-help books, but I didn't really know about them. Because of my, uh, background, because of my childhood, I thought, "Well,
- 25:41 – 32:39
The impact of your dad's passing
- RWRainn Wilson
perhaps because I've abandoned anything and everything to do with God, and spirituality, and religion, m- maybe that's where I have lost my way, and maybe I need to re-explore those avenues, and maybe I could find personal meaning and serenity, uh, by exploring spiritual ideas." So, it was a long process. It was a good eight or ten year process, but I'm, I'm grateful that my pain took me along that path.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things that I think brings spirituality and some of these big questions into focus is death.
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Something you talk about in your new book, Soul Boom, and something you've spoken about previously as well. Something that I've often pondered about. Um, I think it was one of the things that really made me go in search of answers, deep questions at, at a very young age. Um, you talk, I think it's in chapter three of your book, but, uh, b- I listened on the audiobook, so it's chap- it's chapter ni- six on the audiobook, um, about the passing of your father.
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
H- how did, how did that bring into focus spirituality, meaning, and some of these big questions of life?
- RWRainn Wilson
Well, I think if you're gonna look at spirituality, one of the top three, uh, big questions is, what happens when we die? And of course, we don't know. But just because we don't know or we'll never know, um, does that mean that we shouldn't explore that question? Uh, hint, no. So, uh, it's something- it's a topic, and a theme, and a question I had thought about a lot, I had spoken about, I had researched, um, and pondered deeply. But obviously... And I had had, you know, some people that I knew that had died along the way, of course. But when my father died about three years ago, um, that made a profound impact and really prompted me to write the book, Soul Boom, because I had one of these key kind of transcendent experiences, spiritual experiences, which was in, uh... We... My dad died of heart disease. Uh, he was getting a quadruple bypass surgery, and he just couldn't make it. He didn't- they didn't have any way to repair the damage in his heart. And anyways, it was- we thought he was gonna get through the surgery and he died. So, it was- and we knew it was risky, but it was, uh, it was, it was not a predicted death. And, uh, my- his current wife, his widow, and myself were in the hospital with him, and we had to essentially unplug him. And, um, it was devastating and terrifying, and oddly enough, strangely cliche at the same time. Uh, and I couldn't help but, uh- and maybe this is, uh, is that, that trauma-based comedic kind of, uh, aspect of my, uh, of my, uh, of myself that I- I just kept witnessing myself in this situation where my father was dying and there was a heart machine going, "Beep, beep, beep, beep." And there was a little oxygen machine going (imitates machine breathing) . And there's doctors and nurses walking around with their squeaky shoes on the linoleum floors, and I was like, "Wow, this is just like one of those hospital shows." I just kept thinking (laughs) like, "This is just like ER or Grey's Anatomy." Like, wow. Um, I was like, "It's so cliche." But we had to unplug him. Um, he was gonna be dead within an hour, and, uh, we were sobbing. And I looked at his gray body there on the table, and you know, I saw all these aspects of my dad that I loved. You know, the one eyebrow hair kind of poking out, and you know, the mole on his arm, and the way his hands are, and, uh, his hair kind of messy. And, uh, it was filled with such love and such heartbreak. And at the same time, uh, seeing his lifeless body, I was like, (smacks lips) um, "This isn't him. This isn't my dad. This is the vessel that carried my dad." Robert Wilson, and his beautiful heart and spirit, and his dynamism, and his creativity, his light, as it were, is no longer here. But that's his reality. This body is just a shell. It's a vessel. It's an avatar. And, and I also didn't experience it as, oh, he has, uh, it's been snuffed out like a candle. It just seemed very clear, like, oh, it has passed on.... it's somewhere else now, and here is, is his body. And that was such a profound spiritual experience that I knew intellectually from my study, but it's one of those learnings that kinda has to hit you in the gut to make you really understand it and go, "Oh." And I remember that amazing quote that I often pull out from, uh, Father Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit priest, who said famously, "We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience." And that quote, which I've always loved, I saw just evidenced with my father, "Oh, he's a spiritual being. He had a human experience for 79 years in this body, and now his spiritual reality has passed and moved on." And this is one of the essential messages of Soul Boom is that we are spiritual beings. We're having this incredible human experience. Look at us having this incredible dialogue right now, and then I'm gonna go get an Uber, and then I've gotta go do some voiceovers. Then I'm gonna go play tennis with a friend. And I'm having this, you know, I'm having a relationship with my wife and with my son. I'm learning, I'm growing, I'm being challenged, and, uh, it's magnificent. And here's my, my fleshy, somewhat corpulent 57-year-old body that has done, I've done pretty well by. It's ridiculous enough, so I get to take my shirt off occasionally as Dwight, and people can laugh at my absurdly pale and oblong torso, and I'm fine with it. It's all for comedy, right? And parts of my body are starting to break down. I've got, like, half hearing in my, in my left ear, and I've got mild sleep apnea. And I have to wear a mouth appliance that juts my jaw forward, and I wake up in the morning and I go (slurping) , and I place it on the side of the bed. And here I am, this spiritual being having a human experience as Rainn Dietrich Wilson. (trumpet sounds)
- 32:39 – 40:08
The big lesson I learned from the passing of my best friend
- RWRainn Wilson
It's, this is fabulous, but this is part of what we need to recognize, and this could help people. This can help people with their mental health struggles, is an understanding that we're, we're radiant, luminescent, precious shards of the divine inhabiting these, these fleshy meat suits for hopefully 80, 90, 100 years. And struggle and suffering and anxiety is, just comes with the game, baby. It's just part of the game.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Talk about a friend called Dave.
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think David or Dave-
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... who also passed quite suddenly, um, and his handling of that, in particular, um, surprised you in many ways.
- RWRainn Wilson
Oh, Dave, uh, one of my best friends, uh, David Von Anken, who was a television director and film director, brilliant guy, uh, hu- wonderful human being. And he just got diagnosed out of, out of nowhere with Stage 4 stomach cancer. I mean, just like (snaps fingers) out of nowhere, mid-50s, and, uh, essentially a death sentence. So, I got to spend a lot of time with him in his last year and a half after that diagnosis, and we did weekly beach walks. And he said to me several times, and he would just grab my arm and he would say, "Rainn, it's just static. It's all just static. You've gotta get the static out of your life. The emails, the meetings, the, the career, the, the appointments, the, the driving, the traffic, the phone calls, the Zooms, it's all just static. It's all noise." And that really resonated with me, and I know a lot of people have mentioned that in the book, because we do experience our life as this kind of, like, buzz of, like, appointments and shoppings and, and Zooms and appoin- and, uh, and bills to pay and, and whatnot. And, uh, that was profoundly impactful. Um, and I would always encourage David to... it wou- it's a tricky situation, you know, when someone's dying. I don't wanna, like, God forbid, lecture him on, on death or thinking about it. But I would always just turn it a little bit toward a more profound discussion about, you know, the soul and the journey of the soul and the, and the movement of, of the spirit, you know, beyond our, this corporeal 3D, uh, surround sound experience of being a human being to the realms beyond. Um, but he, like many people, um, he, he, he got a little stuck in a way that made me sad because he really just focused on fighting the cancer, which is super, super important, right? So he devoted all of his waking time and energy to, to research and treatment and diet and everything to fight the cancer, which is super important, and I don't blame him. But, um, it was pretty terrifying for him to consider mortality and the implications thereof. He had a daughter, and, um, but I'll never forget him talking about static in that way. And, uh, I find that ver- to be also very clarifying, you know, in my daily meditation practice. Like, how can I... Again, the Buddha uses the image a lot of the lotus flower, you know, it's floating on top of the swamp, you know, these beautiful lotuses.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
And there's the swamp and the mire and the bugs and the dirt and the, and th- and this beautiful, uh, flower rising above. And how can we, in our own little way, be a lotus flower, and the rest of the swamp is, is our daily static?
- SBSteven Bartlett
The rest of the swamp, the alternative way of living to everything you've just described. What is the alternative way of living? So, you know, you've got the, the, the realization that everything is static and the understanding that we are...... spiritual beings having a human experience.
- RWRainn Wilson
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is the opposite of that, that you see when you walk the streets or you observe people? Like, what is the opposite way of living to that, and why is it causing suffering?
- RWRainn Wilson
Thoreau talked about the unexamined life is not worth living. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why did he say that, and what did he mean by that statement?
- RWRainn Wilson
Well, it's been a long time since I read Walden Pond, um, and the night Thoreau spent in jail. But I love the Transcendentalists because that is really kind of the first authentic, uh, American spiritual movement. And, um, this idea that, uh, we're seeking, uh, transcendence, that we're- that was kind of the first movement that really acknowledged, like, we are spiritual beings. So, I think, you know, it's the unexamined life. I think, um, living in the static and living in the swamp is not taking the time to, uh, honor the sacred divinity of aspects of our life. And, you know, I th- I have a- when you study meditation, and you, and you participate in meditation, there's this strange thing that happens, where you realize that you, the reality of you, is the watcher, the observer. When you meditate, your thoughts are still bouncing around. You know, the Buddhists call it the monkey mind, right? So, you're boun- your thoughts are bouncing around. You might have some anxiety and worry, like, "Oh, is that person gonna accept my offer on this," or, "Is this thing gonna work out?" Or, "Oh, is my wife still mad at me," or whatever. So, you have this emotional dissonance, and you have this e- kind of intellectual, uh, dissonance. And then in the meditative state, you're just witnessing that. It's almost like you're floating above it and looking down. And then you realize, like, "Oh, my reality is not my thoughts. My reality is not my feelings. My reality is not even just my body and the sensations that my body takes in." There is some kind of aspect of the I that is the witnesser. And it's getting in touch with that that allows us to get above the static. So meditation is very important to me. The next step of meditation for me is connecting with the ultimate divine. You can do it in prayer. I have a chapter in the book called, "The N- The Notorious G-O-D," um, getting into God. So, um, yeah, that- that's one way to rise above the noise, and the static, and the swamp, is in that practice. And then I mentioned at the very beginning, like, recognizing the sacred and the divine. Um, and we can do this in s- it's certainly easy to do in the beauty of nature.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
It's also, when you have children, and you're, and you're raising a kid, you kind of see that, uh, the beauty in the, in the kids' natural curiosity, and wonder, and open-heartedness. And then you experience it in, in human interaction, you know? I think- I view this conversation as sacred. This is a, this is a sacred conversation. We're seeking to understand each other. Um, you're, you're being of service to your incredible audience. They want to learn about how to make themselves better people, how to start a business, how to maximize their health, how to go
- 40:08 – 44:46
Why should people try spirituality?
- RWRainn Wilson
on a, on a spiritual journey as a human being. They want to learn all this, and you're providing the, the, the way into them. So, we get to have this conversation. People may not agree with what I'm saying, but it might spark something. And, you know, gratitude, uh, and witnessing the sacred, and that meditative practice of kind of rising above our thoughts and feelings, um, that- those are, those are tools that we can use to make our lives better and, and richer.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If someone is on the, the outsides of this conversation and they, they don't really understand what spirituality is, and they've not really gone on the journey that you've been on, what are- what kind of questions would you pose to them to help them open their mind? So, if someone's listening to this, they, they find the word spiritual to be kind of hippie stuff, and they- they're not really, you know- they managed to get this far in the conversation, but they- they don't really understand spirituality, what it means.
- RWRainn Wilson
They managed to get this far. Don't turn off the podcast yet.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah. We need the watch time.
- RWRainn Wilson
There's more good stuff coming. We're gonna talk about The Office.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- RWRainn Wilson
I promise.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) No.
- RWRainn Wilson
Stick around, folks. Way too many cameras here.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there ... I think there's nine or something.
- RWRainn Wilson
(raspberry sound)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) We should do a tch. Um, what would you say to those people? Th- I- I just think of a guy driving his, like, lorry up the country. He's put the podcast on. And he's- he doesn't really know what spirituality is, doesn't really understand it, doesn't understand why- that he would therefore need it in his life.
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah. That's a great question. I don't know that I have an answer for that. I mean, I guess, you know, the dictionary definition of, of spirituality that I use is, uh, a focus on the non-material aspects of life. So, that's our heart, that's our, our, our soul, it's our connection, it's the light that we bring. It's kind of a, a connection to what I would call the, uh, divine qualities that we all carry, uh, to some degree or another. Um, spiritual virtues, you could call them. Um, you know, love, compassion, honesty, humility. These are qualities that don't necessarily serve us as human animals. So they're- they're something, uh, they're not about a quest for power. They're not about the quest for status and comfort. They, um, allow us to kind of rise above, uh, our kind of humdrum human experience. So, that's what I would- that's how I would define spirituality, as something in that realm. But I would say that, um...Listen, we all want more love in our life, right? And love is the most precious and beautiful resource. And I would say, maybe you don't believe in spirituality but, or maybe you don't believe in God, but you can focus on love, and we can all focus on love. That's something we all have an experience of. And so, we wanna increase love in our life. That's, that's increasing spirituality. It's the same thing. Like, um, I had a profound experience of love, um, when my son was born. He almost died. It was a very traumatic birth, an ER room with blood in the middle of the night, in a, in a really piss poor Van Nuys, California, you know, county hospital in a hallway. Um, an emergency C-section. And when I held my son, like, I, again, I had one of those handful of truly transcendent experiences, one of those cosmic experiences of looking into my son's eyes, and, uh, they were bright, bright blue. And he'd just been ripped from the womb of his mother, and I felt such profound love for him. And it was just like waves after waves of, of love. And just almost, I had tears, but it was almost just beyond tears. It was like this transcendent like love orgasm that was minutes long as I, as I held him, just with such gratitude. And, um, and, you know, for a lot of materialists, they could say, "Well, that's just neurons and biochemicals in your brain that are causing that." And that's true. There are neurons firing, and there's biochemicals. But it's so much more than that. You're never gonna tell me that that's all it is, and that it's just some biological imperative to,
- 44:46 – 47:47
The birth of my son changed my life
- RWRainn Wilson
you know, have the species move forward, and that's why parents love their children. Like, what I experienced, I'm sorry, it's just, it's beyond that. You can call me deluded. But that's what spirituality is, is just increasing that love connection. I, I think that was a dating show in the '90s, Love Connection. But we want to increase that love connection, and that is what a spiritual journey is about. And we can increase that with ourselves, with nature, with, with time, with beauty, um, and with our, with our fellow human beings.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did the birth of your son change your life?
- RWRainn Wilson
Well, having kids, uh, is a paradigm shift, uh, because you have a creature that's in your care and is dependent on you. And, uh, and it was actually really profound when my son was a year and a half, uh, the same age that I was when my mom left to have the affair. That was a really profound time in my life. It brought up a lot for me emotionally, because I saw this toddler kid, and he would go out and explore the world and be like, "Oh, here's a cup." And he'd play with some blocks, and he'd, "Oh, tree," and he'd had some words going and stuff like that. And then immediately, you'd see this look on his face like, "Oh, I'm out too far." Like, "Oh, I'm, I've swum out too far." And then he'd run back to the shallow end to his mom and cling to his mom, and like, "Ah," and mom was home base, right? And I was like, "Oh, that home base was stripped from me. It was taken away from me when I was that same age." It was pretty profound. But this idea that our, um, we're responsible, we brought a life into the world, and we're responsible for that life, not just for 5 or 10 years, not just for the first 18 years, but for eternity, it's, um, it's profound. I can't really say intellectually what that means, but, um, it shifts the way you are alive in the world.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That example you gave of your, your son at one and a half years old being able to return to home base, in that, you can also see what, what might have happened to his development and his perspective if when he'd gone out too far and turned around, there was no mother there-
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... who he might have become.
- RWRainn Wilson
If there, and if there was no mother there, and then if, if I, and but then he, he had the father, which is a close second, right? But then my dad, who was so traumatized by being abandoned by his wife and was so already emotionally shut down, and he couldn't really access emotions in the best of scenarios. He had been colossally abused as a kid, and his mom died, and his dad was abusive and beat him and left him and his sister alone in the house for weeks at a time. It was very Charles Dickens. Um, so this, you know, in my dad's case, he was,
- 47:47 – 54:45
The Office
- RWRainn Wilson
he was the worst possible (laughs) person to, to have to bond to, you know, or to need to bond to. So, you know, if little Walter, if my wife, Holiday, had left or, or died for some reason and Walter had to turn to me, like, it would have been okay, but there's, there's nothing that fulfills that, um, uh, that, that primal human, uh, connectionness than a child and the mom.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things that really surprised me, um, was when I was reading about your time at The Office, which by the way, I have to say is my favorite show of all time. I should probably say that. I'm sure it's, that's the case for a lot of people, but-
- RWRainn Wilson
Wait, are you saying right now that the US Office is better than the UK Office?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- RWRainn Wilson
Wow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes, I'm, I know.
- RWRainn Wilson
Do you hear that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
It is, maybe because there was more of them, but-
- RWRainn Wilson
There's a hell of a lot more of them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, I've watched, I watch honestly, when I was going through a difficult part in my life and I was trying to...... was building my businesses, I was shoplifting food 'cause I was just, I was so broke at this cha- in chapter of my life. It was the, and I had this beat-up laptop where I had to, like, solder the charger 'cause I couldn't afford the £10 to buy a new one. It was the only thing I watched, and I watched it for about two years. So, obviously, I, I just kept going back and back and back. It was, you know, you talk in chapter 10 about the seven pillars of spiritual revolution and one of them being about spreading joy. It spread a whole lot of joy in my life, a whole lot of joy. And I don't watch TV, to be honest. I don't watch TV movies, don't really watch any of it. These guys will know. But The Office, I watched.
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't think there's anything else that I've (laughs) that I have watched. Um, but when I, when I read about your, your experience on the show, there was a real sense of unfulfillment, especially in the early years when you were making the show. Um, you talked about that a little bit on Bill's podcast as well, "When I was in The Office, I spent several years really mostly unhappy because it wasn't enough."
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm so glad that you enjoyed The Office, and I just need to speak to how deeply gratified I am, and all of us are, that The Office has brought so much, uh, serenity and peace and love and, uh, upliftment and inspiration to people. I mean, getting on a TV show is one of the hardest things in the world, and then getting on one that lasts is a really hard one. And then getting on one that lasts and is good-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
... and then one that lasts and is good and still has a cultural impact 10 years af- after it has ended is, I mean, talk about hitting the lottery. I mean, we had no idea. We knew we were onto something really special and, and funny and magical. And of course, Steve Carell is one of the great comedic actors that will ever live. Um, but, uh, we had no idea it would have this kind of impact, and we're so deeply grateful and gratified, um, around that. And I, going back to The English Office, it's always like, it's so funny to me, uh, in The Bassoon King, the other book there, I talk a l- a little bit about that, that competition is so absurd. Like, the, the anger and vitriol that you Brits brought to the fact that the, that Americans were gonna make, remake the beloved Office, it was so staggering. I mean, it was s- so enraged and vitriolic, and it was like, "Guys, Guys, The English Office isn't going anywhere. You can watch it-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
"... over and over again. We're not gonna take all the copies and burn them."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
You know what I mean? "We're going to take a brilliant idea by, you know, by Ricky and Steven and the BBC, and God bless them. Um, you know, it's a- as- astonishingly brilliant, and we're gonna kind of run with it. Instead of 12 episodes, we're gonna make 200 episodes. How's that? If you don't like it, you don't have to watch it." But, uh, that was an interesting, uh, time frame. But yeah, so it's interesting that you bring this up because I was very frustrated 'cause I was on, uh, Bill Maher and I was on one other podcast, and I was talking about how there were times on The Office that I really struggled because I really wasn't happy, um, because it wasn't enough. Here I was on the greatest job that I could ever imagine beyond my wildest dreams of that geeky, chess-playing, bassoon-playing kid from suburban Seattle that, you know, walked around like a pimply serial killer, um, that I would be part of one of the great TV shows of all time. I mean, give me a break. And here I was getting paid like millions of dollars and playing one of the most memorable characters, and I'm getting nominated for awards, and I'm working with the most beautiful family of, of actors and writers imaginable. And yet I was like, (growls) "How come I can't get more movies? And why did my movie I did bomb? And why won't they make a deal with me? And I, I just, I want to have this, and I want an office on Warner Brothers, and why can't I get a..." You know? And I spent a lot of time, uh, unnecessary time and angst and anguish, um, in that anxious discontent, um, at a time when I should have just been like, "This, it doesn't get better than this. Just enjoy it, drink it in, and be a part of this incredible artistic," 'cause it was artistic, "experience." So, but I think the reason-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
... I've been bringing that up in some interviews is I think it's important for people to understand that, you know, here's someone who, you know, 15 years into their acting career, 20 years into their acting career, 'cause I was, I started playing Dwight when I was 38 years old, um, is, uh, has m- qui- o- officially made it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- RWRainn Wilson
... and they're still unhappy, and that is so human. It's so quintessentially human.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(exhales)
- RWRainn Wilson
And to think that, "Oh, if I hit this end result, then I am going to be happy." And that's why I, like, I brought it back to that unhappiness that I experienced in my 20s. Like, I was an actor, I was from suburban Seattle, here I was. I had an apartment in New York. I was doing acting, and yet I was really unhappy and miserable, and it didn't make any sense 'cause society had always told me, like, there's this if/then proposition. Like, if you achieve X, Y, and Z, if you make a certain amount of money, if you get a certain position, if you're in a certain kind of relationship, if you have a house at a certain level, if you're a member of a certain club or whatever, then you will be happy. Once I achieve this, then I will be happy. That's bullshit. It's absolute and total crock of bullshit. Now, certainly, I'm not meaning to demean anyone that's struggling to pay bills and they're going like, you know, "Fuck you, Hollywood elitist. You got millions of dollars in the bank,
- 54:45 – 57:00
What would be the cure for chronic dissatisfaction?
- RWRainn Wilson
and, uh, you don't have to worry about, you know, paying the bills." I was there, you know. I was, I was having to worry about, you know-... paying the bills, and it was, it was a struggle for the, you know, first 15 years of my career. So, I've been there, I know what that's like, and I honor that. So you certainly wanna make enough money to, i- i- it does take an incredible pressure off your shoulders once you have achieved that. But to think that then you're gonna be happy? I mean, you've interviewed a lot of millionaires and a lot of successful people. Like, how, how many of them are really fulfilled, uh, deeply fulfilled and happy?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What would I have had to have done to have gotten Rainn, at the height and the peak of that success, even when it was going, to be in the moment and to enjoy it for what it was? Because it's not just you. It's, it's all the people that are listening now that are in jobs. They just got that promotion, and now they're thinking about becoming a director or a CEO. That they, too, are deferring the happiness off to the future behind some goal. What can we do in the moment to just like enjoy life today? Bring our happiness into the, into the now? Um, if you always think your happiness is somewhere in the future, it always will be. Um, what would I have had to have said to you to, to get you to (camera shutter clicks) snap out of that?
- RWRainn Wilson
Um, that, that's a great question. I don't know that there's anything that you could've said to me in a couple of sentences or a couple of paragraphs. But I think if you could've encouraged me to go back onto my spiritual journey, back into my spiritual journey, because you're absolutely right. All we have is now. All we have is this next breath, is this breath that we're currently experiencing. And this is where the joy is. And if we're waiting for the joy to be 375 breaths from now, or 3,000 breaths from now, or 300 breaths from now, um, we're missing out, 100%. And I think gratitude has a great deal, 'cause one of the cures for chronic dissatisfaction, uh, uh, the cure for Dukkha is, is gratitude. And I would've been, to Rainn, one of the things that would've been really helpful is like, "Rainn, you need to start every day with 10 things you're grateful for." It's like, I'm grateful for Jenna Fischer, and John Krasinski, and Steve Carell. And I'm grateful
- 57:00 – 59:52
Does being grateful stop you from having a drive?
- RWRainn Wilson
for a nice paycheck, and a, and a healthy son, and a beautiful wife. And I'm, I'm grateful for, you know, the fans of The Office and the fact that I get to, you know, I've trained as an actor my whole life and I get to use those skills and tell wonderful stories and make people laugh. Like, if I could've been stayed hooked into that, and I did get hooked back into that. There was, this was, uh, I'm describing a period of like three years, three to four years, where I was really struggling with that and then, and then I, I came around, um.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Does it rob you of your ambition though? This is a question I always used to mull with myself because that, that Rainn that wanted more versus the Rainn that goes, "I'm grateful for what I have." Is one more or less ambitious than the other?
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. Uh, and I don't know the answer to that because there is, um... Did, my chronic dissatisfaction fueled my spiritual drive. It also fueled my career, uh, drive and my ambition, um, because I was so chronically disa- dis- disenchanted and disaffected, uh, that I, I wanted, uh, uh, I wanted more. I wanted more opportunities. I wanted more money. I wanted more knowledge. I wanted more wisdom. Um, there is, there is a drive there that can be healthy and a drive that's, there's an unhealthy aspect to it. So, I don't really know the answer to that. I think for now when I look at my life, like, I still have great ambition. Like, I still want Soulboom as a brand. I'm just kind of starting to think about like how to expand that as a brand. Um, I still wanna act in movies. You know, I wanna direct. I wanna maybe create companies. You know, I created SoulPancake, maybe create another company or something like that. And there, there's a lot I wanna do, um, but I'm hoping to bring the best aspects of myself toward that ambition. And for me, that has to do with service and, um, and God, and, um, and utilizing myself, my God-given talents, uh, and faculties, and maximizing those, um, and living in God's will. I'm sorry to get all hippy dippy religious now. But to me, that's what's driving me now. But it's, uh, as long as we're in the battle of the ego, and that's the most ancient, right, human spiritual struggle, is the battle of the ego. And psychologists talk about it, and prophets talk about it, and gurus talk about it, right? So, as long as we wanna promote the self and the self-will and ego satisfaction, we'll never be happy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you happy?
- RWRainn Wilson
I am, yeah. Happy is the wrong word, but whatever it is you mean by happy, I have that thing.
- 59:52 – 1:02:11
Ads
- RWRainn Wilson
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is that thing?
- RWRainn Wilson
Um, I don't know what the word is and I, I, I ponder this a lot, like, what's the perfect word? You know, social scientists talk about wellbeing, so I, I like that one a lot.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
That works. Uh, it's partially contentment, uh, but it's also partially, um, meaning and purpose and vision. And when I'm in alignment with meaning and purpose and vision, um, then I feel like I'm vibrating-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
... on the right frequency. (camera shutter clicks)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I discovered a product which has changed my life called Eight Sleep, and I'm so proud to say today that I had a chat with the founder of the brand, and they are now a podcast sponsor. And one of the things I've come to learn on this podcast from speaking with sleep experts like Matthew Walker is how important temperature is when it comes to sleep, the temperature of your room, the temperature of your bed. And also, one of the big insights I had from speaking to some experts was that the temperature of the room should fluctuate throughout the night as you move through different stages of sleep. So, when you first get into bed, it should be quite cool in bed. It should then get a little bit cooler, and then the temperature should increase near the end, and that is a reflection of what would've happened in nature once upon a time. You've probably come to learn that I have sponsors on this podcast that I use and products that I love. My sponsors should be a reflection of the conversations I'm having, but also a reflection of what I'm using in my life. So, to celebrate them being a new podcast sponsor, I always want to get a discount for you guys, and I've got one. Go to EightSleep.com, which is E-I-G-H-T Sleep.com/stephen, and if you do that, you'll save $150 on the pod cover that I have on my bed, the one I'm talking about. Grab your pod cover, send me a DM, and let me know how you get on. Quick one. You guys know that for years now, my office has quite literally been everywhere, on a plane, in the back of my car, in a terminal in an airport, or on a train. You name it, I've probably worked there. Ever since I started my first business at 19 years old, I've been working on the move. All I need is Wi-Fi, a desk, and my headphones, and I'm set. And one of the places that has always had my back when I'm struggling to find an office is WeWork. I've been using WeWork for years now. Whether it's in Manchester, London, Manhattan, or LA, WeWork is
- 1:02:11 – 1:05:59
What do you struggle with?
- SBSteven Bartlett
easy. It literally requires no thinking. There's no stress of finding the perfect working location. WeWork does it all for you, plenty of desk space, meeting rooms, collaboration spaces, drinks, snacks. It's all there. So, for your next remote working trip away from the office, or if you want a new fresh space to work in, then don't just work anywhere. WeWork might just be your answer. And you can get 25% off your first six months of WeWork All Access by using code CEOWORKS. That's one word, CEOWORKS. And to redeem this offer, visit we.co/CEOWORKS. What are the things that you- you- you still struggle with? Because sometimes, when we- we read the books and stuff, and I've written a book myself, it can sometimes exude the illusion of f-fixed it all, figured it all out. I'm done.
- RWRainn Wilson
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wha- so what do you still struggle with on an- on an ongoing basis?
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah, uh, I think that, uh, I can be a better husband, um, and I think I can be a- a kinder, uh, father and a more compassionate friend. Um, there's still some really basics of human interaction that I haven't quite gotten figured out. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really? (laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
And... Well, because I wasn't really- I didn't learn these things from my parents, right? I didn't learn, um, you know, connection and compassion in the household that I grew up in, so I've had to, you know, uh, parent my adult self in that- in that direction. And, you know, to really- I- I struggle with, um, uh, making sure that I'm, uh, again, using the tools that God has given me to try and make the world a better place. I think there's a lot more that I could be doing to, uh, try and make the world better and to help, um, heal people that are disenfranchised and bring more joy to people's lives and, um, and try and bring spiritual tools to a young generation that I think will make their lives better. There's- there's more I could be doing to that end. And I still have a big ego, you know? I'm still narcissistic, and I still, you know, want ego satisfaction, and it's always there, you know? It's- it's, uh- it's, uh- you know, they always say in addiction, that your addict is in the basement doing push-ups, you know, even when the... But I would say the same thing about the ego, you know? It's there in the- in the basement doing push-ups, just getting ready to come in and take the reins.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Does it speak to you sometimes, the- the- the guy in the basement?
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. You know, Jung talks about the shadow side, and it's so important, and part of the therapeutic process is to get to know one's shadow because- and to know and embrace and accept and love one's shadow, and I have a sh- I have a dark shadow, you know? It's an addict shadow, and it's a miserable shadow, and it's self-important and righteous and entitled, and this is- this is part of who Rainn Wilson is, you know? And I'm not going to get rid of those aspects of myself by keeping that shadow at- at arm's length or locked in a closet or something like that. I have to, you know, keep your- keep your enemies closer, you know? Uh, keep that- keep that shadow, "There you are, buddy! There you are! Ah, doonk, doonk, doonk, right on the belly! Goonk, goonk, goonk, goonk, goonk! Yeah, you little- you little- mean little addict! You know? You little narcissistic, entitled asshole! I love you! I love you! You're right here with me! You're part of me! Let's go on this! We're in this together! I got you right where I want you!"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Everyone's got a shadow. Um, a lot of people are trying to fight their shadow. A lo- I mean, a lot of the prevailing narratives are that you can therapy your way out of the shadow.
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah. No. It's- it's
- 1:05:59 – 1:12:20
The 12-step program that helped me & millions
- RWRainn Wilson
sitting the- you gotta shi- sit the shadow on the lap, almost like a ventriloquist dummy, you know? It's, uh, that's why I love ventriloquia- ventriloquists' stories and horror films of, like, the dummies that come to life and attack, (laughs) you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
Because that's- that's your shadow, is- is that little, "Hello! How are you? Fuck you, Steven! Diary of a fucking CEO!"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
"Get a new T-shirt, idiot!"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) That's gonna be the trailer. (laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, t- the 12 Step Program, you and Russell have both spoken to me about this. But Michael Moore's talked to me about it as well. And what I've, since the conversation with Russell, I've, I've spent a lot of time talking to other people about, um, really like what makes us change. So, the 12 Step Program is, has some principles which I think are applicable for all of our lives about how to, how to create change. Um, if someone's going through something in their lives now, and they're s- they're, they're struggling to change it, how, how does that 12 Step Program help us to go, to change? What, what, what is it about that program that causes that change in people? Do you know?
- RWRainn Wilson
I love the 12 Step Program. That's such a great question. There's gonna be people that are way more, um, knowledgeable than I. But I will say there are some essential components of the 12 Step Program that you're right, are applicable to everyone and could make everyone's lives better. Uh, I think society as a whole could benefit from, uh, a lot of the way that the 12 Steps work. Um, I think it's the most profound spiritual movement of the last several hundred years. Uh, it has transformed millions of peoples' lives. First of all, there's the idea that there's this wonderful dichotomy at the center of the 12 Steps which is, if I surrender, if I admit defeat, if I admit powerlessness, I find great strength. So, there's a, there's a beautiful spiritual koan at the center of that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- RWRainn Wilson
I give up. I throw up the white flag. I can't do this on my own. I need the support of a community. I need to get vulnerable. I need the support of a higher power. And then I find great strength. There's something just so beautiful about that. And the community of the 12 Steps is amazing too, like sharing with like-minded alcoholics, um, and getting the support of that community, the fact that there's servant leaders, that there's elections, that it's, it's run, it's the inmates running the asylum, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- RWRainn Wilson
Uh, there aren't these kind of leaders. In fact, there, if there's someone who kinda presents as like a leader in 12 Steps, you should be immediately (laughs) -
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RWRainn Wilson
... wary of them that they have any kind of answer at all.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The, the surrender point really is the thing that's compelled me, in fact. It's-
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When Russell was talking about this idea of, um, I think that kind of what he said was like, he broke it down into three kind of processes: awareness of whatever it is, the belief that you can change the thing, and then this third step, this principle of kind of surrendering to it.
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And in, and in an individualistic society, materialistic society where we're becoming more and more isolated and individualistic in our approach to life, we are living in four white walls alone more than ever before. You know, we, we think we can do it ourselves, right? This idea of surrender and admitting that you need the collective and help with something and that you might not have the answers I think is so powerful, so, so important as well. I think we all need to surrender in many ways. I think I need to surrender.
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In terms of my ego, I think I need to surrender, um, in terms of even spirituality. I told you a second ago about my, my partner who is very s- what ev- anyone might call spiritual. And surrendering to her way of living has brought me so much value-
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in my life. So, this idea of surrender being the solution to, um, the resistance we're encountering by the ways that we're living I think is something that everyone can consider. Like if you're feeling a deep sense of dissatisfaction in your life, surrendering and saying, "I need help. I don't know the answer," um, "ca- can, can you help me?"
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Brings in everything you're pro- it's probably the, the medicine that you're seeking.
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But surrender feels like an interesting word. It feels like powerlessness.
- RWRainn Wilson
Right. But again, there's great power in that powerlessness. And what do you surrender to? And that's why there's a higher power as well. And, uh, boy, there's so many things I wanted to say there. Um, but, uh, there's a humility in the process that is missing in contemporary society, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 1:12:20 – 1:16:56
What does your wife mean to you?
- RWRainn Wilson
you know what? We could all benefit. Politicians could benefit. CEOs could benefit. Um, people in relationships, parents with their children, people in, in partnership could benefit. Like when we're wrong, promptly admit it. Promptly being the word, not, not eventually.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
You know?... um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Soon as you know.
- RWRainn Wilson
Say you're sorry and do it faster, you know, and do it better. And, uh, the world would be a much better place if everyone around said, "When I'm wrong, I'm gonna promptly admit it." That's just one little gem. There's so many dozens more.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Holiday.
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
She's been with you through a lot.
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah. (sighs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I was looking at the timeline of when you, you guys got together, I think you met in an acting class, right?
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's been a long time, almost four decades, right?
- RWRainn Wilson
Hella long time, yeah. We were in acting class together in 1985. We weren't together as a couple till '90, '91 really, when she moved to New York, but, um, yeah, 32 years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I w- I wasn't even born then. You've grown a whole Steven in that time.
- RWRainn Wilson
You asshole.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) I was born in '92. So, what does she, what does she, what does she mean to you?
- RWRainn Wilson
Uh, you're gonna make me cry, aren't you? You're gonna try and make me cry.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I d- I don't know. I don't know. D- you might hate her. (laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
Um, she's everything to me. I mean, I am so blessed to have her in my life. Um, she's dealt with me when I've been a raging asshole, and she's dealt with me when I've been depressed, when I've, when I've let my anxiety get the best of me. Um, we've had a lot of ups and downs in our marriage, and I think that's, that's really important for people to hear. Like, uh, I th- we're soulmates, um, and, uh, uh, I really wouldn't have achieved anything that I've achieved without her help and guidance and love and support. And it, you know, it all sounds like a cliché, but it's just, it's just the truth, and she's really the wisest person that I know. She has a deep, deep wisdom, and she knows me better than anyone. So, I'm just grateful, and I tell her every day. I tell her every day.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what has she taught you about the nature of what love is?
- RWRainn Wilson
You know, it's interesting. She also had a very traumatic childhood and a difficult... her parents had a very difficult situation and she, she had a lot of issues in her own way, (clears throat) in her own journey. I'll let her tell that story. But, um, she loves very naturally in a way that it's a lot more work for me. So, she just has a big heart and is just able to love our son and other people and animals and, uh, you know, I, (laughs) I always felt... I, uh, as, as an analogy I use in, um, in my, in my books where because I had such a weirdly fractured childhood, I would observe how humans interacted and, uh, try and emulate that 'cause I didn't understand it. So, if... I would, like, observe people in the lunchroom at my school, and they'd come in and someone would say, like, "Hey, buddy, how's it going? You have a good weekend? Good to see ya." And I would, I would watch it and I would... I'll be like, "Oh, that's, that's how normal people interact." And so, I would, I would literally copy it and I would try it out, and I'd go up to someone, like, "Hey, buddy. Uh, how you doing? Did you have a good weekend?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
You know? So for me, I w- felt like I was an alien, like I was literally like a science fiction film where I was, like, this alien, like, learning about human (laughs) behavior and interaction and, like, studying humans and, and seeking to, to fit in. And I bring this up because Holiday is, uh... does this stuff so naturally, you know? She just has a natural warmth and, and grace. Uh, so, and sometimes I emulate her (laughs) about... oh, here's what it means to be loving and, and warm and, uh, and live life with, with grace.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You and me both. My partner sounds exactly the same, and I feel like I've learned how to love someone by emulating the things she does so naturally, the things she says, the things she admits-
- RWRainn Wilson
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... when she says sorry-
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... how open she is, th- her ability to tell me her feelings.
- RWRainn Wilson
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
All of these things I've, I've learned from just watching that she seems to have no issue or no resistance in doing it, if that makes sense.
- 1:16:56 – 1:24:36
The last guest's question
- RWRainn Wilson
um, but I always wanna maybe lecture or react a little too much or say the thing I feel that needs saying, and, and my wife is so good, and, like, she'll see me starting to do it and she'll just be like... (sniffs) Just, just this little thing, and I'll be like, "And I think Walter..." "Well, we'll, we'll talk about it later."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
I just... I take my cues from her a little, like sh- she's a conductor-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
... of my... she's a conductor of my parenting too.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Brain, thank you so much. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving the question for. They leave it in the Diary of a CEO.
- RWRainn Wilson
Oh, that's good.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The question they have left for you... I don't get to read it until, so give me a second. Handwriting isn't always great. Can you recall a time when you... observe, he reads it, observed someone being treated badly and could have intervened but didn't?
- RWRainn Wilson
Uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, what might you have done differently if you could go back to that moment?
- RWRainn Wilson
That's such an exceptional question. I was reading a, uh, someone was writing about bullying, and they were talking about how bullying is a three-step process, like, you stop the bully, you say, "Hey, that's not okay," speak up to the bully, maybe don't get in a fight but speak up to the bully, tend to the bullied, and then report it to an authority. And we often just kind of view bullying as, like, that first step process of, like, trying to shut down the bully.And, you know, back in the '70s and '80s when I was growing up, uh, there was a h- a hell of a lot of bullying going on. And, um, and I, I feel bad that I didn't bully myself 'cause I was far too nerdy, um, to partake in bullying. But I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) If that's any reason why. (laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
(laughs) Well, part of it was. Part of it was because I wish that I could've been a part of that process of, uh, especially people that had been bullied to, uh... I, I guess I just didn't have the tools to give them empathy and compassion an- and support. A- and then to take an active part in, you know, reporting this whole dynamic to the authorities. 'Cause I, when I go back, uh, and replay my high school years and junior high and elementary school years, it was just non-stop bullying. I mean, it was, it was taunting and teasing and, you know, taking the piss out and, and demeaning and belittling and, um, and hierarchies. And, uh, we may be going a little too far in contemporary society, um, about what qualifies as bullying 'cause it's not criticism and it's not even necessarily like, having some good-natured fun, you know. But, um, I wish I had been, um, um, more actively, um, a participant in kind of a part of that three-step process.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Super interesting. Never heard about that three-step process before. This particular individual, I don't usually give clues but, uh, but, um, they're writing a book about adult bully- bullying as well-
- RWRainn Wilson
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... having been on the receiving end of that and they think adult bullying is something we don't really talk about a lot, which is like the workplace stuff and-
- RWRainn Wilson
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you know, as we get older. Rainn, thank you so much. Um, thank you for so many things. My ... There's two real really incredible things that, um, changed my life in a really important way. The first was obviously The Office, y- you know. You are o- by far my favorite character and I think that I just can't understand how a human can be, could've been so good at acting. And I really mean that. Like, I don't b- bullshit people but you're s- so good at, at acting. Playing that role of Dwight, I think like there was occ- occasions where I tried to do it. Like, I tried to... Uh, so it's almost, it's almo- it's, it comes as a shock to many people that... And you know this 'cause you kind of allude to it in the b- in the first chapter of the book that someone that could embody Dwight can also write such a great book like this about something that is so far from what I think Dwight might be interested in. And it's actually all a testament to your ability to t- your ability to act. Really, really unbelievable. I think your role as Dwight is one of the all-time great performances in any show like that. It's, it's incredible, incredible and you talk about, as I said, in the tenth chapter of the book about spreading joy. You gave me so much joy. And then you came out with this app called SoulPancake back in the day, which caught me at the perfect moment where I was a young man that was really obsessed with these big questions. Still am. Um, and it allowed me to find this community where I just peppered people with really profound questions about whether dogs have, you know, a s- soul and all of these kind of things that I was struggling with at the time. So thank you for both of those things 'cause you helped me in ways that you'll never know and I live tens of thousands of miles that way. And it changed, just nudged the, the, the direction of my life in so many important ways and it's led me to this moment now which you can understand for me is an incredible one. A absolutely incredible one. So thank you. It means a lot. And everyone should go check out this book. It's, it's wonderful. It's super accessible. It's, it, it kinda ... I don't know how to describe this but it... As, as it relates to books that are t- confronting this idea of the spiritual revolution, it takes it easy on you and it holds your hand across the bridge, you know. And that, that I think is important because that person in the lorry or the truck, that's exactly what they need if they are going to access the wisdom in this book. So thank you, Rainn.
- RWRainn Wilson
Steven, what a profound pleasure. Thank you for having me on this show. Congratulations on all the incredible work that you do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Thank you.
- RWRainn Wilson
And, um, thank you for acknowledging the fact that you owe everything to me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RWRainn Wilson
So... And that's a wrap.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) A quick word on Huel. As you know, they're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company. One of the things I've never really explained is how I came to have a relationship with Huel. One day in the office many years ago, a guy walked past called Michael and he was wearing a Huel T-shirt and I was really compelled by the logo. I just thought from a, a design aesthetic point of view it was really interesting. And I asked him what that word meant and why he was wearing that T-shirt and he said, "There's this brand called Huel and they make food that is nutritionally complete and very, very convenient and has the planet in mind," and he, the next day, dropped off a little bottle of Huel on my desk. And from that day onwards I completely got it because I'm someone that cares tremendously about having a n- nutritionally complete diet but sometimes because of the way my life is, that falls by the wayside. So if there was a really convenient, reliable, trustworthy way for me to be nutritionally complete in an affordable way, I was all ears, especially if it's a way that is conscious of the planet. Give it a chance. Give it a shot. Let me know what you think.
Episode duration: 1:24:26
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