The Diary of a CEORichard Osman: The Untold Story Of A TV Legend's Addiction!
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,012 words- 0:00 – 1:47
Intro
- RORichard Osman
My books wouldn't be as good if I, if, if I hadn't gone through that trauma.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Please welcome Richard Osman, ladies and gentlemen. (crowd cheering) Bestselling novelist, television producer, presenter...
- RORichard Osman
You know, if you have a trauma of any type and- and you are looked after and you're guided through it, you can come out the other side. If, however, you're sort of left alone in your trauma, your own solutions never work. I never sat and thought, "Oh, I've got a problem with my life." But I would have addictive behaviors around food.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When did you realize that it was a strange behavior?
- RORichard Osman
I mean, it's an addiction. There's no other way of putting it. It's like having a bottle of vodka, then having another bottle of vodka, then having another bottle of vodka. If you see somebody as different, they do not need to be told. I've had that with my height, you know? And I know you're just thinking, "Yeah, but it's just me." You think, yeah, but it's just you and five other people every single day. I didn't live the life I should have done for many years. I wish I'd been more myself in those years, and I would have taken much less success and much more happiness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what is happiness to you?
- RORichard Osman
Gosh, that's a good question. Well, here's, here's, here's the way I always think about it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That makes a lot of sense.
- RORichard Osman
Hmm, you think?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before this episode begins, I just wanna say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers. 74% of you that watch this channel didn't subscribe before, and we're now down to about 71%. So, that helps us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain, but simply, the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests get. So if you haven't yet subscribed to The Diary of a CEO, if I could have any favors from you, if you've ever watched this show and enjoyed it, it's just to, to please hit the subscribe button. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music)
- 1:47 – 10:48
Early years
- SBSteven Bartlett
Richard.
- RORichard Osman
Steven.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do I need to know about you and your earliest years to understand the man you went on to be and all the things you went on to do?
- RORichard Osman
Uh, that's a good question. Well, if you mean professionally, the man I- I- I- I went on to be, um, I grew up loving popular culture, loving mainstream culture, loving mainstream television. Um, so, you know, that's always been in my soul. Uh, I came from a big working class family and now find myself in a very middle class world, so I- I- I sort of have a sense of what different people, um, from different places in Britain like to watch or like to read. Uh, so that really, and, you know, I grew up, I've, I've, I've, uh, visually, I'm very visually impaired, so I don't see the world particularly brilliantly, but I'm always listening to the world. I'm always interested in what people are saying and, you know, getting that sort of thing. Uh, so I think that combination of things means I've, I've, I've had a career of sort of working out what people might quite like and then finding the right people to help me make those things.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your, your earliest years kind of reminded me of mine in- in many ways, because I- I almost view my earliest years as two chapters.
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There was, for me, there was the first chapter, which was really pleasant. I remember it being a very happy home. And then there was a second chapter, which would, I could describe basically as dysfunctional.
- RORichard Osman
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And a bit of, a bit of a nightmare.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, there's, there's, there's similarities. So I was, I was, I was nine. My father left when I was nine. And this being the 1970s, we didn't really see him again. It wasn't sort of, it wasn't touchy-feely, oh, everyone still loves each other. It was, you know, off, off you went. And so yeah, I was probably the same, quite happy-go-lucky up to that age. And then afterwards, you sort of have to, you know, build a mask for yourself a little bit and, you know, pretend you're okay and pretend you're not in pain. Uh, weirdly, that ability to sort of create your own narrative was helpful in my later car- career. You know, I'd rather not have had it. But that ability to sort of pretend that everything's okay and to, to write a different story, um, which is, which is, uh, very much what I did. But, um, yeah, I think that anyone who's had that sort of disconnect, uh, it affects them one way or another. And it was very, you know, an unhappy time and it's led to lots of unhappiness, uh, since then. But it doesn't make me unhappy anymore, for sure. I've absolutely come to terms with it, come to peace with it. Um, and, you know, I always say trauma is not the problem. It's inability to deal with trauma is the problem. You know, if you have a trauma of any type and- and you are looked after and you're guided through it, you can probably come out the other side. If, however, you're sort of left alone in your trauma and you come up with your own solutions, your own solutions never work. Uh, so I definitely had that. But, um, I try and use... You know, I'm very connected still to the nine-year-old, weirdly, because I've had that sort of interregnum where I was a slightly different person. So I'm always able to, um, I'm always able to find that nine-year-old, and that nine-year-old was very interested in new things and what's on telly and, you know, uh, who's playing football this afternoon and, you know, what's in the pop charts. And, you know, that's the stuff that I loved when I was nine, and it's the stuff that I still love now. I'm always, always, "What's next? What's next? What's next?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
You talk, we talked, I think it was a Sunday Times interview you did, where you said at that age you had to manufacture yourself a little bit. And I found that really interesting, 'cause I've heard this a few times from a few different people I've sat here with that have undergone a sort of a tectonic shift in their early years.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what do you mean by manufacture yourself a little bit?
- RORichard Osman
Well, I think when you get into your teenage years, you are working out who you are. And, you know, we could, we, we, we, all of us change, and we change in, you know, in reaction to the world around us and the thing- new things that we experience and new friends and new schools. You know, we become different people. But I think if at the heart of it there is a lie, so my lie would be, "Everything is okay. I don't need my dad to be around. It's okay that I hear my mom crying at night." You know, if that's my lie, then everything I build is built on a fault line. You know, so everything is built on that fault line. So however big I build the, you know, my personality, there's gonna come a point, and it happened to me probably late 20s, when there's an earthquake, because that fault line gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. So it's just b- we all build our personalities, and if you build them on truth, if you build them on firm foundations, if you build them on good faith, then, you know, you have a chance. If you build them on fault lines, then it always comes out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That makes a lot of sense.
- RORichard Osman
Mm. You think?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, because that's, that's completely consistent with when I've sat here with people who've spent decades of their life or decades of their career even, um, building themself up on a lie-
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... or as you've referred to it as a, uh, wearing a mask. Um, the, the earthquake always comes.
- RORichard Osman
Well, here's, here's, here's the way I always think about it. Listen, people will tell you there's no such thing as truth, and of course that- that's true, I get it. There's no such thing as actual reality. But I think our personalities, we sort of have a true north, right, which if nothing goes wrong or if we respond to trauma well, we carry on our life and the true north goes up through us. And we sort of dance around it, and we can sort of wander in and out the fields around this sort of true north. If you deviate from true north, especially very young, then suddenly true north is here and you're heading off in this direction, right? And for quite a while, you're not very far from your true north. But if you're like 15, 20 years in, you're so far away from what you should be. Right? Now, you don't know that you're telling a lie, okay? That's the absolute key. You don't know that you're lying to yourself, right? So, what you're seeing is the reality of the world seems alien to you, and you can't work out why. You think, "Why don't... Why don't I fit in? What, why, why am I not sort of doing the right things?" Uh, and it's because you're so far away from where you need to be. And lots of people will fill that gap with, um, addictions and drugs and booze and, and weird behaviors. But eventually, I think most people work out the reason the world doesn't seem right is I'm not right. You know? And some people, narcissists will try and drag the world to them. Look at Trump. He tries to drag the world to him all the time, okay? Because of his childhood, and which we get, right? But most people at some point just go, "No, I need... I've gotta make that leap. I've gotta leap back to where I was," which is a long journey, but a, but a worthwhile one. But I think it's just, we just keep going just slightly off course, slightly off course, and the longer that goes on for, the further we are from where, where we should be.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If you were to, um, have stayed on your true north-
- RORichard Osman
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... throughout that whole period, what would you have done instead?
- RORichard Osman
Oh, well, it's a very good question. Uh, I sort of think that I would have done roughly the same thing. I think I would have ended up in, in TV or journalism or writing one way or another. I think that... And I especially think this with the books. I think that it has given me an empathy for people and for pain and to... you know, I see pain in other people all the time, and I see denial in other people all the time. Uh, and I think those things go through the books. So, I think my books wouldn't be as good if I, if I hadn't gone through that trauma, uh, you know? And again, I'd trade the- the two off in a heartbeat. So, I think I would have done the same thing, but I don't think it would have had the same soul as The Truth, and therefore I don't think it would have had quite the same impact or success.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You say you'd trade the two off in a heartbeat?
- RORichard Osman
Yeah. Happiness for... 'Cause I mean, listen, you've been enormously successful, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- RORichard Osman
But the question is why. Okay? What are you after? Right? Are you after money? Okay, you're after money. But why? What is it... What is it that money is doing for you? It can buy you certain things. Okay, but why do you want those things? What are they doing for you? And the answer is always one thing, which is happiness, contentment, right? Just comfort in and of yourself. That's all you want, is to wake up in the morning and be comfortable with who you are, to have enough and to be comfortable with who you are. Uh, and I think that, you know, that's the thing. Happiness is the only thing we seek. And if I'd grown up happier, I think I would have found happiness easier to find. And, you know, my happiness has been a hard won. And I'm happy. You know, now is great because I'm 51 and I- I'm- I'm in this lovely place. But then, you know, there's sort of 10, 15 years where you think, "Oh, you know what? I wish I'd... I wish I'd been more myself in those years." Uh, and I would have taken much less success and much more happiness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's funny, I ask that question because I remember Mo Gawdat sitting here and talking to you about the eraser test-
- RORichard Osman
Mm.
- 10:48 – 19:04
Knowing the impact not to see your dad would you act differently now?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I imagine there's a lot of people listening to this now that have had a traumatic event happen to them, or of course, they're gonna have traumatic events-
- RORichard Osman
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in their future. What I'm really interested in is, knowing the impact that your decision to no longer see your dad and however else you behaved at that time had on you later, how, in hindsight, do you think it would have been better to act?
- RORichard Osman
Better for me to act?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- RORichard Osman
I don't... I don't think it's a question for me because I'm 10 year- 10, 11 years old, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RORichard Osman
And I'm not... I'm, I'm, I'm not the sort of significant actor in that situation, you know? You're, you're not able to rationalize the world correctly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- RORichard Osman
You know? It's for the people around you. And this- this... No disrespect, by the way, to the people around me because we were at very, very different times. And my mum had just been through the most extraordinary trauma. I mean, much more than I had been through. And so she was not in a position to act in my best interest there. And my dad wasn't in a better position to, to work in my interest. And nobody was. No one knew. You know? There's lots of talk about mental health now and isn't it... you know. But no one talked about that stuff back then. I mean, they really, really didn't talk about that stuff back then, you know. It just didn't exist. You know, you, you... It was the sort of hangover from the kind of post-war years where you just didn't complain, you know? And that, that's still the mindset we had. So, listen, if, if it had happened, uh, more recently, yeah, it would have been-... much simpler. And listen, I'd have found a different trauma. You know, it's personality types seek out trauma is the truth. Uh, and I would've found a different trauma, um, to explain away my differences. But I think that, um, yeah, I, I think that had it happened 30 years later, conversations would've been had, people would've sat in rooms and we'd have worked out what the best thing to do was. But it's, the, the world was such a different place in sort of 1979. It sort of feels very, very recent to me. Uh, but, you know, the world, the world was an entirely different place.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And we didn't even have to have those conversations in 1992 when I was born.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, I think that's right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They started showing up about 10 years ago, I think, conversations around mental health and mental wellbeing. Before then, even the prospect of being mentally ill had this, like, horrible stigma that, associated with like straightjackets and asylums, not-
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We didn't think of the fact that we all have mental health.
- RORichard Osman
I think, I think that's exactly right. And listen, there's an awful lot wrong with our, this new social media age, but one of the good things is if you are different then you are supported and you have friendships around you. Um, listen, you're also attacked. That's the problem with social media age because, you know, suddenly you're seen as a group. Uh, but you are supported and it's, you can find like-minded people. You can find people in the same position. No one at my school was from divorced parents. You know, it just didn't, you know, when I went to comprehensive school, there's a few more, but not really. Uh, and now, of course, you know, you can be on, you know, you can be online and you can meet 1,000 people in your situation in one evening. You know, and that I think it, would, would, would be rather helpful.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've talked about how you've come to peace with that resentment that you had with your father.
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How?
- RORichard Osman
Oh, easily, because he's a human being, and I've got it. And I got to the age that he was when he left, saw the situation that he had found himself in, and I thought, "Yeah, I get it. I see why he would do that." You know, I did the same. I l- you know, I, I left the mother of my children, um, hopefully in a very different way. But, um, you know, I absolutely get it. He found himself in a situation he couldn't get out of, um, so ran away. And, you know, I met him in later life, and he's an all right guy. You know, he's a perfectly decent man, but he didn't have the language and he, he didn't have the brain space for, for that sort of conflict. He just didn't have it. He just was in a situation he didn't wanna be in and ran away, which is, which is very common. And again, people, you know, do it less now because, you know, you, you can talk to people, and men didn't talk to other men then. You know, he found himself at a place in life where he just thought, "I'm not who I need to be. You know, I'm unhappy." And so he found an excuse and left. And so I've always, you know, I have no resentment towards him anymore. I get it. I sort of wish that I loved him and I wish that there was a, that I felt that love, and I wish that I had that big sort of family thing. But, gosh, there's worse problems in the world. Um, but of, but of course I understand why he did it. You know, this, it's the age-old story. Pe- people have been doing it for generations and they'll keep doing it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Empathy was your cure.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, I think so. And it, and it, and it's, um, an empathy for one's enemies. I don't wish to call him an enemy, but you know what I mean, for someone who's, who's an antagonist in your life rather than a protagonist. P- people talk a lot about empathy, and I think they don't have empathy for their, their opponents or for people who disagree with them or for people who, who, who've lived a different experience. Uh, and you think that's empathy. Empathy is not just saying, "I feel sorry for people," or, "Can we help people?" You know, that of course is empathy and it's kindness, but empathy is also why does half the country disagree with me? You know, why does half the country live their life in a, in a different way? Why do they not care about what I care about? That's actual empathy, and that's, that, that's in shorter supply, I would say. But yeah, learning to forgive someone who's, who's caused you trauma, uh, and not just forgive but a- but understand. The French say to understand all is to forgive all, which I, which I, which I sort of, I sort of get. Um, you know, if you're inside someone's head, you go, "Okay, I see it. I see why he did it." So listen, I'd rather he hadn't done it, but I understand entirely why he did. And, and yeah, that's, that's, I guess a, a very good example of empathy, the sort of empathy y- that you wish you didn't have to have but, um, you know, is very useful.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You needed more information on his context to get that empathy. Or, or was it... 'Cause, 'cause you used the word learning to forgive.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which I think is an apt word 'cause it's not easy to, to do that. It's not just a decision we can... Well, it is, I guess, to some part, but it's a very difficult decision to make, to, to really-
- RORichard Osman
Well, I mean, look-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... forgive somebody.
- RORichard Osman
... in, in my situation, you know, I hadn't seen him for 20 years and then I did see him. Um, maybe a bit less, may- maybe 18 years. And so yeah, I'd had a long time to build that wall around me. I had a long... I'd had, you know, I'd had conversations with him in my head a lot. And, you know, the conversations you have with people who aren't there become very powerful and, you know, you'll, you'll constantly have that conversation again. "This is what I would say. This is what I would say." Uh, and then you meet up and you start saying a couple of those things, and you're just there with a guy who's just saying, "Look, I was just unhappy. And, you know, I love you and, you know, I wish I hadn't had to do it." And you just go... It takes the sting out of all the, the conversations you've had over the years. Now, for me, he didn't have the conversations with me that I needed. You know, there was no... He wasn't really apologetic. He didn't really understand. The first thing he said to me is, "I, I bet you wonder what I've been up to since I left." And I thought, "Not really. You know, I sort of think maybe what I've been up to might be of interest to you." And so he, he, he, he just didn't, he didn't have, he didn't have the vocabulary to, to, to reform the relationship is the truth. Um, and I sort of felt he hadn't needed it. But I, I, I'd said to him towards the end of his life, I did say, "Have you had a happy life, though? Have you had a happy life since you left?" And he said, "Yes." I thought, "Do you know what? That's, that's fine for me. That'll do me." Listen, it, it's, I'd, I'd rather he was happy. But, um, yeah, it, it's, uh, it's, it's a, it's a long journey to sort of go, "Do you know what? I get why he did it. And now the stuff that I've built up around it is now my responsibility and it, and it, and it, and it's my thing to deal with, not his."
- SBSteven Bartlett
And in that interview, I think with The Sunday Times, you said you, you, you went to his funeral and you found yourself very... You found yourself upset, but not at what one would think.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah. I found... I went down with my brother, funnily enough, who, who had even less to do with him than I did. And, and my kids were there. And it, it was so unemotional. Uh, and, you know, I was very careful. You know, I, I thought, and I com- remember that sometimes these things hit you, and this is your father and he's died. Uh, and-... I couldn't connect with him. I cried briefly at the end 'cause I cried c- 'cause of what could've been, 'cause of the relationship I'd missed, but I wasn't crying for him. Uh, and f- from the next day onwards, it didn't hit me again. There was no kinda aftershock. Uh, and that sort of, the, that's really upset me that there was not, 'cause I'm an emotional, very emotional person. I'll cry at anything. I'll cry at the repair shop-
- 19:04 – 21:03
Being shaped more by your mum
- RORichard Osman
- SBSteven Bartlett
You seem to be more, sh- significantly more shaped by Brenda.
- RORichard Osman
Ah, my mum. Yeah, no, I'm definitely sh- (laughs) I'm definitely shaped by her. I didn't have any other option than to be shaped by her 'cause, uh, it was just m- me, her, and my brother in the house. Yeah, no, I was very lucky to, whatever my trauma, and listen, we can overestimate these things, 'cause I was brought up in a very loving household and brought up in a very smart household. My mum, uh, became a primary school teacher, uh, after my dad left. And, just 'cause y- you know, just very wise and very protective and, y- you know, uh, so I g- I, I really in the sort of lottery of life's parents, I, I have to accept that the one I had was an awful lot better than the two that, uh, many people have.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Give me a flavor of her, her character and personality and her, her manner.
- RORichard Osman
Well, she is, as I say, she's a, she's a primary school teacher, so she's used to, um, you know, if you ever went into a, into a class that my mum's teaching, they'd be silent if she wanted them to be silent. But she's very, very softly spoken. And, and where she is now in her retirement village, which is the b- the basis of the Thursday Murder Club books, she's surrounded by people with very strong opinions and very strong personalities. And my mum looks like she wouldn't say boo to a goose. She looks like... She's very unassuming. Uh, but, you know, I know after these big meetings where they're all shouting at each other, my mum will be the one to stand up and just say, "I wonder if we should do this." And give the solution to the thing. You know, while everyone else's egos are sort of blowing themselves out, she sort of slips in and sorta says, "I wonder if we do this." And that's not just, by the way, "Oh, I'm kindly and wise." It's also she wants to get her own way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RORichard Osman
And she knows, she knows that that's the way to do it. So yeah, she, she's, she's, she's very bright, very quiet, very unassuming, uh, and sorta is the opposite of, of, of a tiger mother. You know, these mothers that make sure you're doing, you know, piano practice and French lessons and you're learning Mandarin and all this kinda stuff. She just let, she let me watch TV. She let my brother play his guitar. And sort of trusted that we'd find our way in life. And that's, I think, certainly for me and my brother, often the best way to bring up kids, is to, is to let them find what they love and just let them get on with it.
- 21:03 – 24:11
Watching the TV when you were younger
- RORichard Osman
- SBSteven Bartlett
That decision to just let you watch the telly-
- RORichard Osman
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... pretty formative, I guess.
- RORichard Osman
Well, yeah. And, and, and, you know, listen, we can always look back in hindsight and go, "She was a genius."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RORichard Osman
"She knew that that was gonna be my career." But I think that she realized when I was watching TV that I wasn't doing it passively. And it, which is true. When I was watching TV, I was always looking at the credits. Who does what on a TV show? What are the names of these people? And, you know, if there were jokes on a sitcom, thinking, "Oh, that's interesting. Why, why did that make me laugh, but that, that bit doesn't make me laugh?" Or formats, you know, w- how, why do they always end on a round and a quiz show where you can catch up loads of points? What's that about? So I was never watching passively. I was always, I was fascinated with that. I was always interested with it. Uh, and I think that she... I, I, I see it with my son and computer games. He plays games all the time, but then he, he'd talking to me about the industry and he's talking to me about how they monetize it and he's talking to me about, you know, different forms of games and I just think, "Great. You keep, keep playing games then, because that's the thing that you love. And so long as you're interested in how it's put together, then, you know, that can become a career." And I don't think my mum thought that I ever would have a career in telly 'cause we didn't know anybody like that. But I think she just sort of trusted that something was going in and that, you know, I was never interested in schoolwork. I just not, it, it wasn't my thing at all. I c- I could get by, but it never sparked my interest really. Uh, but TV always did and stuff I was watching and sport always did. You know, I'd watch and watch and watch and that's, you know, almost all my lessons were taken... You know, again, with someone who's very visually impaired, I can sit up very close to the telly. So, you know, so many of my lessons are from TV, not, not from the real world 'cause the real world, I can't really see it, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You can't really see it?
- RORichard Osman
Well, everything's in a fog. I mean, that's the, that's the point. So I, I n- I never notice details. If I wanna see a bird in a tree or a cricket ball going towards a bat, I can't... That's not something I can see. Never will do. I can't drive or anything like that. Because on TV, the whole world is out there. I can go any, you know, I've never been a big traveler or anything like that. I w- I wanna stay at home. But I can watch any country in the world on television. You know, that's the thing that I can see. And I'm interested. The reason I don't wanna travel is I don't wanna travel. I don't wanna get in a plane. I don't w- I don't want all of that. But I want to learn about places. I want to see things. And TV, you just, it just shows you everything and it showed me everything. Uh, and it introduced me to people and, you know, even now, I watch daytime TV. I get so much information about human beings from watching those shows and seeing people's reactions, which I don't see in real life. You know, 'cause I'm up close to it, I get to see it all. And TV's given me all of that. You know, and, uh, I think TV is so huge and such a huge part of our culture. We sort of, I think we forget it exists. I think we forget quite what a powerful thing it is. We talk about cinema and music and all this kinda stuff. And this is the age of television. You know, this, my generation, I think perhaps your generation and the next one is, is gonna be much less so. But television is the thing. It's in the corner of everybody's rooms. You know, and it shows us so many things. It teaches us so many things. Uh, but it's so, or 'ca- it's, it became too successful that we sort of take it for granted. And now we say, "Oh, TV's collapsed." And you go, "Yeah, but Country File's getting six million viewers."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RORichard Osman
You know, that's like, it's a lot of people. You know, and, um, I've, I've, so much of what I know about the world and what people like and politics and that comes from TV and what, and what people watch.
- 24:11 – 25:58
Your disability
- SBSteven Bartlett
... nystagmus, is that how you pronounce it?
- RORichard Osman
Nystagmus, yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Nystagmus?
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Nystagmus. That's the, a condition you've had since birth?
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you wouldn't, you wouldn't know any otherwise, I'm guessing.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, exactly. I've al-, I've always, um, you know, my eyesight's always been blurry and it, it, it's like an uncontrollable moving of the, the, the pupils. I did once, I never use autocue on television 'cause I can't see it. Uh, and once when I did Have I Got News For You they s-, 'cause it's all gags that are written, you have to... And I was hosting, they said, "Well, you're gonna have to use it." Usually I can learn stuff, but that is a whole script worth of gags, so I couldn't. So they gave me, they said, "Look, this is the autocue that Bruce uses, so you'll be fine." And even that, it wasn't big enough. I said, "You've gotta move it nearer and make it bigger." In the end, we, we got it big enough. Uh, but when people were watching it, they said, "Oh, is Richard Osman drunk?" Because they could see i- m- the effort of having to focus on something, my eyes were going absolutely crazy, so people think you're drunk. And so I never hosted it, I just went, "Do you know what? I'll be a guest where, you know, I don't have to do..." And I never use autocue on any shows. And again, that's one of those silly things where what feels like a disadvantage is a huge advantage, because, you, you know, so many TV shows, and w- we were talking just before we came on air about, about how shows are edited, and I'm thinking about House of Games, I'm thinking about Dragon's Den, they're edited in, in, in a, in a very sort of military way. You know, they got the same shots each time. And the one thing I've got control over is what I say. And the second something's on autocue, you say the same thing, because the producers put the same thing in, because they got other things to be worried about. And the fact that I don't have it on autocue means I, I just say different things each time. You know, and it's looser and it's freer and people can watch five episodes in a week and I haven't introduced any of them in the same way to the others. And so I've turned that thing of not being able to see to an advantage which is, you know, I s- present it, television shows differently in a way that's hopefully a bit freer and feels a bit more natural.
- 25:58 – 34:46
Being too tall
- RORichard Osman
- SBSteven Bartlett
The other thing you talk about, and I've seen this in a few interviews, is your height-
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... being something you've con- almost contended with. And it's, you know, it's interesting because, um, a lot of short men want to be tall men.
- RORichard Osman
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And to hear a tall man say-
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... speak as if he would rather be a little bit shorter is-
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is quite surprising.
- RORichard Osman
Well, I'm six foot seven, which is too much is the truth. Uh, and you know, it, it, it makes you extraordinary. And look, my eyesight is not... people can't see that, right? Okay, so that's mine and that's internalized and, you know, I deal with it how I want to. My height is something that people can always see, and I find it, I find it fascinating. Again, in this world of social media when, when, when people talk about microaggressions and stuff that you must have seen your entire life-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RORichard Osman
... which is if you're different in any way, right, you are reminded of it nonstop. You know, mostly, you know, people that are not being cruel. Sometimes they are. Now, I have a height, so I'm not being discriminated against 'cause of my height, right? It's not, you know, I'm not, it's not costing me anything, but I do know that every single day of my life I'm reminded of it. Every single day just nonstop. And so I know that to be a person of color, to be differently gendered, to be all of these things, I know that the microaggressions I get you are getting nonstop every day of your life and in a much more harmful way. So I've always hopefully really, really understood the idea of microaggressions and the idea that... Please, I hear this every single day, even if you're trying to be kind, you know, if you see somebody is different, they do not need to be told. They do not need it pointed out every single day because everyone has told them their entire life that they're different. You know, and I know you are just thinking, "Yeah, but it's just me." You think, yeah, but it's just you and five other people every single day forever. And, you know, I've had that with my height forever and ever and ever and felt incredibly self-conscious. And most people are perfectly nice. Some people are horrible because some people... It's, it's a really good radar for what people are like. I call it a C-word radar sometimes, this being different in any way, and which I, I pre- perhaps you'll agree with, which is so many people are sort of lovely and we'll chat, but then, you know, a couple of times a day there's just someone who wants to shout at you out of a window or just wants to make you feel small ironically. You know, that's what they want to do. And you just think, "Why?" What, someone's a bit different to you and you've gotta shout something and make yourself feel a bit better? You know, and so being different in any way whatsoever I think really teaches you about people and about the hate that's out there and about the unhappiness that's out there, 'cause that's where it all comes from. And so being tall, yeah, has taught me about microaggressions and, and, and has made me try and fight for people who are different and has made me just say to people, "If someone is different, right, just talk to them normally." You don't need to... It's, we never had the word, but sometimes I, I'll sort of tweet something about, "Oh, I love this film." Or, "I love," "I went to see this gig," or blah, blah, blah. And like 10 people will go, "Oh, glad I wasn't behind you." And you know what? It's a perfectly harmless joke, right? Perfectly harmless. I get it, I understand why people do it, but I get it every single time someone does it. So just think for one second, has this guy ever heard this before? Has he heard this thing before? Is it a fun thing to say to him? 'Cause to me, if I go to a gig or a cinema, it's a nightmare because I don't wanna be in front of anyone. I go out of my way to be as far back as possible, which when you can't see means (laughs) it's impossible.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RORichard Osman
Or, you know, sit on the aisle in a cinema. You know, I take it seriously and every single time they say it... Now, that's just a tiny example, but recently people have said, have started saying, "Oh, you mustn't body shame." And I thought, well, that's interesting 'cause body shaming is sort of something that, um, you know, certain people would say that, "Oh, that, what a snowflake talking about body shaming." But actually it really, I just think, yeah, that's what you're doing. That's what people have done to me for the last 30 years, they've body shamed me. Like, because they've talked about my stature and I felt ashamed. That's body shaming. I mean, that's what that is. I would never have thought of it as that, I just was embarrassed and it just made me feel shy and made me not wanna go out. But it's body shaming. And actually having it named, you just think, "Oh, good for you." And it's the younger generation who do it, they're so great, and they just say, "No, come on, that's body shaming." And you think, "Oh, that's such a, such a lovely sort of thing to have in my armory to kind of go, yeah, that's exactly what you're doing." Uh, and again, 90% of people, they mean nothing by it and I get it, but it's just body-... and 10% of people it's, you just think, "Oh, you're, you're very unpleasant."
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, um, I never... I'm so glad to hear that because it's really changed my perspective-
- RORichard Osman
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because, um... And I mean, genuinely mean that. Like, I wouldn't sit here and just go, "Yeah, I agree." It's just I genuinely have learned something.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, um, and I think, I think it's, I think it's because of what I, how I phrased the question at the start, in the sense that a lot of people feel a, a ton of shame for being slightly shorter, which is again-
- RORichard Osman
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it's, uh, it's, it's a point, point of being different. Um, and I've never heard, in my experience, someone say... But it's completely right, that wherever they go they must be continually reminded of, of the fact that they're taller than everybody and how that might, might make them feel.
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When did that first start happening in your life?
- RORichard Osman
Well, sort of in my teenage years. I was, I was, I was sort of very tall from about 17 probably. I was always tall, but kind of nice, "Oh, you're the tallest in your class," and that's, you know, which is quite a fun thing to be. You know, and that's what you want. You wanna be 6'2", right? That's what, you know, anyone who's 5'9" or 6'7", we all wanna be 6'2". Uh, and yes, so sort of 17, 18, and when I was off to university, which again is very, you know... So I'm sort of this guy who is much too tall and is awkward about being tall, who can't see anything (laughs) and who's quite an introvert anyway. Uh, and so... And, uh, sort of had this false self anyway from when he was nine years old and his dad left and everything was okay. Um, so, uh, you know, there, there was a real sort of storm (laughs) of things brewing there, as I say, all of which have brought me good things in the end. But, uh, you know, I think, um, meant that, you know, I didn't, I didn't live the life I should have done for many years, 'cause I was sort of hiding away from things. Some things I have to hide away from because with my eyesight I just can't, it's not safe for me to do various things. And some things, just my height and sort of thinking, "I'm gonna look stupid. Oh, I'm gonna look stupid going on a rollercoaster thing. And also, what if I can't... What if my legs don't fit on that?" And, you know, just silly, silly l- little things. And, you know, the world will not... The world is not shy in letting you know that you're weird, you know, that there's something weird about you. Uh, and certainly that's what I felt. I felt weird. And of course, as soon as you feel weird, you have to sort of... You know, you live with it and your, your, your behavior sort of changes and you kinda go, "Oh no, I am a weird person, so I have to hide that away or explain away why I'm weird." You know, I'm very grateful that the one thing I always had was I was good with words, I was able to put things into words, I was always able to make people laugh. Uh, and so I, I... For years I, I've been able to paper over the cracks of all of that because I had all this stuff, but I knew that I could sit in a room and make people laugh, and I knew I could say the right things to people, and I, I... And so I, I sort of... I, I, I got away with it for years and years and years is the truth.
- SBSteven Bartlett
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- 34:46 – 45:16
The 'Storm' in your 20s - your addiction
- SBSteven Bartlett
and let me know how you get on. You, you referred two times now to this storm in your 20s where kind of, I guess, this was the point about your true north.
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You must have realized that you were far from your true north and you needed to kinda turn back or get across towards your true north. What was this storm in your 20s?
- RORichard Osman
Well, I don't know. It's, it's, it's an interesting one really, because, you know, professionally I was doing the thing that I loved. You know, I'd started working in telly at 21. I, I haven't had a day off since. And y- you know, I was being successful because I, because I came from a home where I watched TV and I was in an industry full of people who didn't watch TV. It was very, very easy for me to rise through the ranks and to make shows and to invent my own shows and to sell them because, you know, I felt very, very at home. Uh, and so I was being successful and I was, you know, exec producing shows and, and all sorts of things. Uh, and, you know, I had kids very young, uh, which I'm delighted I, I did 'cause I'm 51 now and they're, like, both in their 20s, which is amazing. You know, what my big presenting issue was, was, was, was a, was a food addiction and, and, and weird behavior around food, which, which I can sort of see would be what a nine-year-old would have, would have set up for himself. Uh, and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you mean by that?
- RORichard Osman
Well, I think if you're, if you are gonna be an addict, which is almost always, "How do I run from this pain? How do I run from the fact that, you know, I'm not where, where, where I need to be?" When you are nine, food is probably the only thing that's available to you. Uh, food, attachment maybe. You know, there's, there's, there's, there's only a certain amount of things a, a, a nine-year-old, uh, has (laughs) at their disposal. Hot Wheels. I mean, there's, there's not a lot you can get addicted to. Uh, and so, you know, I, I, I would have addictive behaviors around food. And that... I never sat and thought, "Oh..."... I've got a problem with my life. Right? I never thought that. I never thought, "Oh, well," you know, "I'm- I'm not who I'm supposed to be." But what I definitely thought was, "Why- why do I have these eating behaviors? That's weird," uh, and in a way, that explained my weirdness away for me. I went, "You're weird because- because you- you have this weird eating patterns. That's the thing that makes you weird." And you think, "No, there's- there's lots of things that make me weird." Um, and so that's the thing that I went to get help for, you know? So that's the first time I went into therapy, uh, which again, from my background, is not something I would have considered. Uh, but it had got to such a stage, and I was so tired of this behavior, of how weird it was and how s- dumb it made me feel. You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was the behavior?
- RORichard Osman
Just o- overeating and, you know, binge-eating and all that kind of... just inability to control food in any way whatsoever, or if I was controlling it, just being incredibly strict, so either sort of dieting or- or- or being out of control with food, which is much more common than I think, uh, we, uh, allow as a culture. Be- I think, you know, alcoholism and drug addiction we get, we understand, and there- there- there's pathways to sort of, uh, getting better. But I think food addiction is- is- is- is the sort of last taboo. But, you know, having spoken about it before, the- the messages I get from people just saying, "Yeah, that's me," or, you know, "My husband came into the kitchen and in tears and just said that that's- that's me. That's been me for 20 years, and that- that's the thing that I've got," uh, and has never spoken about it to people. So I think, I think it's really, really, really, uh, common. Also, h- why wouldn't it be, you know, given the food industry, right? Why wouldn't it be? Why- why would- why would, uh, food addiction not- not be a thing? And so I think, yeah, those behaviors where you just go, "Do you know what? I've got these wonderful kids, I've got this great career, and yet I'm still secretly eating and feeling deeply ashamed of myself." You know, what- what's that? Right? And after a while, you think, "Well, maybe it's not the food. Maybe it's me." You know, maybe the food is a symptom of something rather than the problem, uh, which of course is the case. You know, booze is never the problem, is it? Drugs are never the problem that... What you're running from is the problem. So yeah, I went to therapy, and honestly, from the first session I did, I- I've- I- I'm... That's my path to getting better. And well, you'll never not be an addict, but that's my path to kind of going, "Okay, I get it. I see- I see what this is."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Most people, I don't think, will understand when you, when you say binge-eating and overeating.
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think a lot of people listening think, "Well, I- I overeat."
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know what I mean?
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But- but what I've read f- from what you described-
- RORichard Osman
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is, uh, very, very different to just overeating a big meal once in a while. Can you give me some detail as to what you mean by ?
- RORichard Osman
Yeah. And again, look, it's- it's- it's shaming for me to do so, but- but a good example would be, I remember one of the first years, I'm with- with a s-, you know, talking to the therapist about it, and- and it was- it was sort of mid-December, so I wasn't gonna see him for a few weeks, and he said, "Look, I hope," you know, "I hope Christmas Day is not too triggering 'cause people eat so much on Christmas Day," you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RORichard Osman
... the classic thing on Christmas Day, "Oh my God," you know, I ate all this, and I ate all the chocolates and the crisps-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RORichard Osman
... and we had a meal anyway, and then there's cheese at night and blah, blah, blah. And I said, "Honestly, I've eaten like it's Christmas Day every day e- from my 20s and 30s." That's h- you know, that's what I've done. When I'm in- in an episode, you know, everything is like Christmas Day. I'm not eating 'cause I'm hungry. I'm eating 'cause the food is there and because I need, I need to not be sitting by myself, you know, and thinking about whatever I need to be thinking about it. So, you know, it's that, it's that idea. It's the, it's- it's that sort of... It's not, "Oh, aren't I naughty? I had a cream cake." You know, it's, "Aren't I naughty? I had a cream cake, and then I had the other three, and then 20 minutes later when I," there's the, even the tiniest amount of space, "I went out and got some more food." You know, it's that. It's- it's, I mean, it's an addiction. There's no other way of putting it. It's like having a bottle of vodka, then having another bottle of vodka, then having another bottle of vodka. It's the same thing. Uh, and the second you shine a light on it... Listen, some people listening will- will, uh, won't believe it exists, and I- and that's, by the way, absolutely fine. You know, it's listen, we believe what we believe, but I'm talking to the people for whom this behavior might feel familiar, or who've got friends or relatives to whom this behavior might feel familiar. It's real. You know, it's a real thing. Uh, and it's quite hard to get your way out of because you have to eat, right? But there's ways through it, and the first way through it is to shine a light on it, and just say, "Oh, no, no, no. That's, uh, that's me." And to- and to- and to try and take that shame away from it a bit.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When did you realize that it was a, in your own words, a strange behavior? Because I've got a friend who's been through a similar... Well, I've got two friends-
- RORichard Osman
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... who've been through very similar things. Um, one of them's... I mean, they're the two close people in... You know, I know they've both talked about it very publicly, um, one of which in a podcast, one of which does... talks... she talks about it all the time on her Instagram.
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I've... The two closest people in my life went through that.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And for one of them who, again, she's talked about this publicly, um, that resulted in bulimia, um, and a bunch of other very, uh, destructive eating patterns. How did you figure out that- that it was different?
- RORichard Osman
Well, I think y- you- you can't... You know, you can, you can fool everybody except yourself, you know, finally. And just, you know, a lifetime... You know, when I was a kid, I- I would secretly eat, and I would find ways to get food and to, you know... And my mum would go, "Oh, where have the- all those crisps gone? That's weird." And you'd be like... And, you know, then she started hiding the crisps in places 'cause she thought they kept going missing. Just every day of every month of every year since then, just- just hunting down and finding the food that I wanted, uh, and feeling ashamed about it afterwards. Uh, so I- I knew amongst the success I was having and the friends I had and the lovely time I was having with people, I knew I had this weird secret thing that wasn't going away and that made me unhappy, and certainly made me unhealthy, uh, and that probably at some point I was gonna have to do something about. But it took a, it took a long time. I'm shocked about how long it took before I finally went, "Do you know what? This is... I need to do something about it."
- 45:16 – 52:35
Unlocking ideas from your therapist
- RORichard Osman
given.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are some of those ideas that he... those kind of unlocking... were there e- 'cause I'm thinking... I assume there was, like, some bit of eureka moments, where someone says something. You've kind of... uh, you detailed one there where he says, "Well, how's that? How's that working out for you?"
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were, were there any, like, thoughts that y- he's given you, that Bruce has given you, that you can... that we can all apply to our lives that will help us understand ourselves better or free ourselves from whatever we've imprisoned ourselves with?
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, I think, I think his key thing is, is, is this idea of shame and the things that make us feel ashamed. Uh, because here's the thing, if you start feeling ashamed, you then start feeling ashamed of being ashamed. In the same way, anyone who's ever had a panic attack will tell you, if you start panicking, you then panic about panicking. Or if you start feeling anxious, you're then anxious about your anxiety. Uh, and that's the absolute thing you have to stop. That's the cutoff. So, if you're feeling shame, or you're feeling panic, or you're feeling anxiety, let it be, okay? It's there for a reason. It's looked after you for many years, okay? And that- which is another thing. You gotta make peace with this way that you've tried to protect yourself through shame or through panic or anxiety, right? Just let it be what it is. And once you do that, it burns itself out. And listen, it'll come back tomorrow, and it'll come back the next day, but what it doesn't do is spiral and spiral and spiral and lead you to self-medicate. You know, if you can just let shame be what it is, if you can let panic or anxiety or however you experience what it is, however you experience the thing where you just realize that "This ain't right," you know, "this is not h- who I want to be or how I want to be," whatever that feeling is for you, let it be what it is for a while, because it's not going away anytime soon. You know, if you want regime change, right, that's slow. You know, that's... that's boots on the ground, you know, it's bit by bit. So, let it be what it is. Allow it. Shine a light on it. And he'd always say, you know, "If you're in a moment of shame, and you can become conscious about it in some way..." Right? So, say, I, you know, I've, I've just eaten some food, and I'm feeling ashamed about it because I just b- sitting there and just thinking, "That was so dumb. Why have I done this again?" Uh, have a conversation with yourself. He said, "Right, now, that conversation, that's you talking to you, okay? They're both... both of those bits are perfectly valid. Now, one bit is the one that's harmful to you. That's you. And the other bit is the bit that's trying to save you. That's you as well. And the key thing is just start practicing the muscles on the one that's trying to save you. You know, just give it a bit more airtime each time. Just give it a few more arguments each time." The other one's never going away, and it never will. Any addict will tell you. That's never going anywhere. It's power- and some days it's, like, so powerful, you know? But you have to let the other side of the argument. You gotta give it some strength. You've gotta send it to the gym, you know? And that's, that's the thing. It's saying you are always gonna have this, all right? Because most people's addictive behaviors, or whatever it is, come from childhood and come from a self that we built up almost always to protect ourselves from something. Okay, so you have to love it a bit. You have to love this thing that you've set up to protect yourself. But also, you have to talk to it. And when you're talking to it, you have to understand that there's two sides of yourself, and you've got to build up the one that's talking to it. You've just got to build it and build it and build it and give it strength. Uh, and it's hard to do, and you'll find different ways of doing it, and different people will find different ways. But just remembering that the one that's saying...... "Hold on, maybe I shouldn't have a drink." You know, that, that is equally valid as the one who's saying, "I should have a drink." The one who's saying, "You should have a drink," he's got a point. Of course, he's got a point. You know, it kind of works for you. It numbs things. You know, l- listen, you wouldn't do it if it hadn't worked, you know, and you like it. Uh, so that's, it's valid. But this other one is also valid, and maybe, maybe listen to it a bit more often and just give it a bit more airtime. And then over the years, you might find that it's got more power than the other one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that what you found?
- RORichard Osman
Yeah. I, I have found it. And listen, it's really, really hard is the truth. Uh, and I get it. With, with alcoholics and drug addicts, you, you, you can just cut off drinking booze and, and taking drugs. It's incredibly difficult, and I see the struggles that people have with it, and, and again, it's a lifelong thing. And every day, you're thinking, "Please today, just let me drink today. I would love to have a drink." You know, you'll never meet an alcoholic who wouldn't just love to have a drink today. Um, and with food, you do have to eat, so you have to, you have to put in a slightly more d- different set of rules. But, you know, you just have to give yourself boundaries and know that you mustn't cross those, um, those boundaries. But yeah, I think that honestly shining a light on things is the thing. Talk to people about it. Talk to people you love, you know. You'll be shocked, and I was shocked when I opened up to people, and the people closest to me I opened up, and they went, "Yeah, of course. Of course, I know. Of course, I know that." Uh, but once they know about it, they can help, you know? And that's very powerful and it's very, very important. And then, you know, it's, it's nice for me to be able to speak publicly about it because I do think probably there aren't enough male role models saying that food can be difficult and food can be an issue, um, and so I'm happy to be one. I'm sort of not. I'm embarrassed. Don't get me wrong. It's embarrassing for me to talk about. Uh, absolutely put that on the record. You know, I'd rather not be talking about it. But the things that come from it are more powerful, and the more I talk about it, the less power it has over me, and hopefully, the more I talk about it, the, the, the less power it might have over other people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, one of the things I've learned from sitting here with, with people from all walks of life that have been through a variety of different traumas is, um, I used to think that we could cure this stuff.
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, we could go to therapy, we could read this thing, read this quote-
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... spin around, tap our head, and it's gone.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I've come to learn that that's, it's never gone.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I, now I almost feel like my head is almost the scales, and if you, what you're trying to do is, in fact, make the, allow the decision to be made by the, the better side.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But the, the trauma or the, the beliefs that you've built as a child about the world and yourself and your relationships, whatever, is always gonna be there.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it can be triggered and then flared like a flame with oxygen.
- RORichard Osman
Tha- I, I think that's it, and the key is not to panic when it, when it rears its head again. The key is never to think, "Oh, I'm never gonna be rid of it." The key is to go, "Oh, I'm never gonna be rid of it." That's the thing. As soon as, the second you go, "Oh, it's always gonna be there," it's very freeing 'cause you kind of go, "Okay, listen, every now and again, it's gonna flare up, but I don't need to panic. I don't need to go, 'All this work I've done, all this work I've done on myself, all these books that I've read, and it's still there, it hasn't gone away.'" And the second you go, "It's staying," right? It's like a sofa you don't like in your living room, right? It's not going anywhere, okay?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RORichard Osman
You're just gonna have to learn to live with it. You know, sometimes you can look around, you don't even notice the sofa anymore, and sometimes you go, "Oh my God, look at that sofa." Right? It is staying. And if, if you... It gives you a lot of power to know that it's staying and, and that when it's in charge, which it will be sometimes, uh, that it's okay just to go, "No, listen, just let it, let it do its thing." And the one thing that that addictive part of your personality wants you to do is panic, you know. That's the one thing it wants because that's where it thrives, you know. It thrives on the chaos. That's what it wants. It wants you to be off balance. So you have to sort of occasionally just go, "I get it. You're in charge for a few days or for a week or so or a month. Uh, you do your thing. I'm gonna try and just live in good faith in the rest of my life and, and, and just sort of let you burn out."
- SBSteven Bartlett
20 years in the, in the TV business-
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... roughly.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is it 20?
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Just, just-
- 52:35 – 57:42
Why were you successful?
- RORichard Osman
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's a long time to be in TV. Tell me, tell me about that phase of your career and really like what it, um... What... I guess the question, my mo- the question I wanted to ask you is, how come you were so successful in TV? I know no one ever likes blowing, you know, smoke up their own ass or whatever, but, um, you were very, very, very successful. You, you produced some unbelievable formats that, you know, go beyond luck or cha- you know. So h- in hindsight, why, why you?
- RORichard Osman
Well, I love... Uh, well, it's a good question. I mean, I love, and one, I feel more comfortable talking about it now. I, I've sort of, I've, I've sort of stepped off that, that carousel now. I think that's, uh, I loved television, you know, and I loved seeing what entertained people, and I've, I've got quite mainstream taste. So I, I, it was in my DNA. I wasn't having to leave university, go into television and think, "Right, what do people like?" Right? I never, I've never ever ever had to go into work and say, "What do people like?" Right? I, I sort of know that something I like enough people will like that it's a TV show. So I've always loved that. I've always loved creativity. I've always loved, you know, sitting down with a pen and paper and knocking things into shape, and I've always loved sport and the formats of sport and knockouts and stuff like that. So, and Jeopardy!, that's very, very natural to me as well. Uh, but then I also, for reasons unknown to me, I love sales. I love selling. You know, I absolutely love going in and pitching. Uh, and the thing I love about it is working out what people want and why, uh, and how they're gonna respond and how to give them the thing that they want. Uh, and so that combination of I would come up with things I was proud of, uh, and then I would try and sell them. And, you know, that's the thing, that's the thing that, that I love. And if I've had any success, it's been thinking of ideas that I would like to watch and then packaging them in such a way that someone at Channel 4 or the BBC will give you 4 million quid for it, which is a, a big ask, you know. Selling a TV show is quite a big ask. It's like being a car salesman, you know. You don't need to sell that many cars to be successful, you know, and the TV is the same way. You've just gotta make sure that-... you've got the best car out there. Uh, and so, yeah, yeah, I think, I think a mix of the introversion of loving sitting down and working things out and working out formats and then the, the extroversion of being able to say to people, "I think this is really gonna work for your channel." You know, those two things together have always driven me. I'm... Creatively, I'm incredibly ambitious. I love to create new things. Uh, and in business terms, I'm also incredibly ambitious, which is I like to build value and I like to make money for people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's two thoughts there, which in my head almost sit in conflict. One of them is, I, I make things that I would love to watch-
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and then figuring out what other people want.
- RORichard Osman
Well, I... Th- that's the thing is I've, I've never really... I've never bothered thinking about what, what people want. And I think the second you do that... That's a lie actually. When... So Endemol, which, which, which I ran with, with, with a group of people for many years, after Big Brother and various things, there was a point probably sort of 2006, 2007, where we got so huge and so powerful that we could sort of sell anything, if that makes sense.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RORichard Osman
Or not that we could sell anything, but people were so desperate to have product from us that they were buying substandard things. So, you know, there was a couple of times where I went in and we sold shows that actually I was thinking, "I don't know about this." And it's very rare that I would go into a pitch meeting thinking, "I don't know about this one." But they would buy it in the room. And then you've got... And then you gotta make it. And guess what? It's really hard to make because no one cares. No one watches it because they can tell-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- RORichard Osman
... it's not... doesn't come from anyone's heart, so you don't get a second series. And TV business is all about second series and third series. You make no money from, from, from a first series. So we... I've definitely been in rooms where I pitched stuff that I didn't care about. Uh, but every time there's something you c- you really care about, uh, and you can sell, and then you will give it your absolute best shot making it because I sort of... I know how to make it 'cause this, this is the thing I want to watch. It was like books. I, I wrote books that I would like to read that I didn't see out there. Uh, and with TV programs, it just... Oh my God, you'd have an idea in the morning, just go, "I would love to watch that. I would love to watch that." Then you sit down, you workshop it, you work it out, and then you go and pitch it. And, you know, that was my entire career. I never really got involved too much in the, in the, in, in the, in the real business side of, side of things and, you know, exploitation and rights and foreign sales and distribution and all of that. I was just sat in a creative hub, really, just coming up with ideas, just sort of feeding the engine. Uh, and I was able to do it because I would sort of be doing it anyway. I would be... I would sit at home and do that if I wasn't in that office. I'd be thinking, "This is a thing I would love to see on TV." And I was just lucky enough to be in an environment where, uh, I could have an idea on a Tuesday and we could set it on a Thursday. Uh, and it's... Comes from... I loved it. But the second, the ch- the second you second-guess yourself or the public or go, "What would people like?" I don't, I don't buy it. I don't buy it when people write books like that. I don't buy it when people make TV programs like that. And I was surrounded by people in that industry early on. Not so much at Endemol where we were TV lovers, but earlier on where I was... it was full of people who were just in it for the lifestyle and they didn't watch telly. There's people even now who don't watch telly. You just think, "Come on, do something else."
- 57:42 – 1:05:02
What is creativity to you?
- RORichard Osman
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is creativity to you then? So, so, you know, you, you've described a few things there, but what... At its essence, what is creativity and how does one... can one go about being more creative or becoming more creative?
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a tricky one that because it's always... it's, it's, it's always just been the way that my brain has worked. I was, I was talking to, um, the husband of a friend of mine who's a... he's a working class French guy who is a maths genius. This kid. So he grew up in the Banlieue of Paris, uh, and at about 11 years old gets plucked out of the school system and taken to this like école for mathematicians 'cause he's, 'cause he's a genius. And since, he's made a fortune in the city, right? His algorithms, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RORichard Osman
That's his thing. Trading algorithms, right? Because it's the maths. Uh, as I was talking to him... uh, we were on holiday recently, and I said, um, "So you just... you come up with stuff that's new that other people haven't spotted?" He's like... He's... Yeah, he does a French... I won't do his accent. It's very fr- almost comically French. Uh, he was saying, "Yeah, yeah, that's, that's exactly what I do." And I say, "How do you experience that?" I said, "Because I know how I experience it. And I experience it... there's five or six clouds of things going around the outside of my head at any given time. Something I've just seen on TV, something I just read in the newspaper, some- something somebody said to me, something my mom said to me, uh, something that's happened at home. Five different things." And occasionally two of those things will bump into each other and you go, "Whoa, I never thought of that before." Uh, and so without saying that, I said, "How do you experience creativity?" And he said, "Well, I just... I got all these concepts sort of... they sort of rush around the outside of my head and occasionally two of them will bump into each other or three of them will bump into each other, and suddenly I've got something new." And that's how I've always experienced creativity. Now, is that useful to people? I don't know, other than to say keep your eyes open and your ears open all the time and be listening to the world. Just see how the world is spinning, see how it's working. And sometimes there is, if you're in TV, it's seeing how a particular television program works. That's sort of a very direct bit of copying. But almost always it's then you're on the bus and someone says something to their kid or someone's late for school and they're running and you kind of go, "Wait a minute. That reminds me of something." So it's, it's, it's eyes open, ears open all the time and just a- let... allow things to bump into each other, I would say.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's a po- point... uh, I... There's another piece there which I've just noticed from you saying this, which is... I love the analogy of the clouds. So I was thinking, "Okay, so I need more clouds in my life, which is more points of inspiration."
- RORichard Osman
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then the second thing is, well, there's... loads of people have got loads of clouds, but they don't have the intent to connect the clouds.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which is like you have a... uh, you've designed a life where you have... you actually have commitments to make the cl- to when the clouds-
- RORichard Osman
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... bounce to turn it into something. A lot of people's clouds are bouncing and they're just going, "Oh, look, the clouds just hit each other."
- RORichard Osman
Yeah, I think that's probably... I've never thought about it. I think that's incredibly wise. Two different things. Yeah, firstly, increase the number of clouds.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- RORichard Osman
Which is increase the amount of people... i- if you want to be creative, by the way. You don't have to be. It's overrated.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RORichard Osman
Uh, but increase the amount of clouds, increase, increase the data points that are coming into you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RORichard Osman
You know, the people you're seeing or, you know, just go and do something different. Go and learn Japanese. Whatever it is-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RORichard Osman
... something that gives you a different cloud. And then, yeah, it's...I guess, yeah, professionally, they've- they've had to be bumping into each other for m- for my whole life, so it's, it's completely natural to me. But yeah, if you can force yourself sometimes to, to, to sort of th- think of the things that have gone on around your head, think of the things that happened to you today, think of the things you watch, think about a film you just saw and why you liked it, or a film you just saw and why you didn't like it. You know, think about an argument you just had with your mum and what she said and why it's annoying. Uh, and, you know, is it the same argument you keep having? Is there any way of fixing that in a different way? So, just keep those clouds going, and then, you know, occasionally let them just sort of intersect. And that's, yeah, I think by and large, that's where ideas come from. You know, and it's, you talk about it a lot on this podcast as well, hard work is also a thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- RORichard Osman
You know, actually p- putting the hours in. You know, it's all very well to go, "Oh, no, I just had the idea on the bus and then I, I came in." But you only have the idea on the bus 'cause you spent four hours the previous day with a blank piece of paper in the office-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RORichard Osman
... just thinking, "Oh, god, I got nothing." You know? Because that's dislodging so many things in your head. So, you, yeah, you, you have to, you have to work on it. And then occasionally, occasionally the gods give you a little gift.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I, obv- I've thought so much a- you know, 'cause I think, um, I think we're all artists in some respect-
- RORichard Osman
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in our own way, whether it's blogging or DJing or if it's writing or ma- making TV. I think that... And I also think expression is so... it's almost therapy for us.
- RORichard Osman
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, I really, I really... I've got behind this idea over the last year of, like, we all have our own form of art, and when we express ourselves, it's good for our mind. So, the, the, the advantage that I think me and you have both had is we've been in careers where that art has been monetized-
Episode duration: 1:36:03
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