Rio Ferdinand's Reveals The Training Ground & Dressing Room Secrets That Made United Unbeatable!

Rio Ferdinand 0:00 I don't see barriers. (instrumental music plays) Hard work every day, the lifestyle, to be, like, a standard. Dedication, attention to detail. I just wanted to be the best. I was that obsessed with it. My kids lost, they lost their, their mum. I got to understand mental health for making a documentary. It's allowed me to kind of speak and, and show vulnerability that people probably were never used to. The great part of it is that you walk down the street, an old age lady or a man come up to you, you know, what... Throat's all croaky and... "I watched your program. F- I- I've never spoken before, really. You, you helped me." Like, my next phase in my life, when someone sees me in 10, 20 years, say "That's Rio Ferdinand." I haven't really done what I'm here to do, to set- setting out to do. (instrumental music plays)

Steven Bartlett 0:49 Do I even need to introduce my next guest? Rio Ferdinand, former football player, one of the most decorated English footballers of all time, and as a Man United fan, probably one of my favorite players of all time, ever, and he's played alongside some of the greatest players ever, but he's also been managed by the best manager ever. I grew up as a Manchester United fan watching him, idolizing him, and now he's my mate. So this is gonna be a fairly interesting conversation. After retiring, he's become a sports commentator for BT Sport. He's become an author. He's become an entrepreneur. He's a, the founder of a charity, a foundation. He's a non-executive director, which we'll talk about today as well. And as you'll hear, he's also so much more, some things that you probably wouldn't expect. He's also a husband and a dad, one that's experienced tremendous, unthinkable tragedy, tragedy I pray that most of us will never know. Rio is a special guy, not least for what he's achieved on the field, but for who he is. And today you're gonna find out who he actually is, the philosophy to life that he swears by, and the culture required to win in an ambitious career, but also

Steven Bartlett 1:58 the culture required to win in your personal life. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays) I'm trying to find the right words to ask this question, because it's one that I've, I haven't seen been asked in p- previous interviews of you. But what are the, what are the key things that happened when you were very, very young that made you choose football as your future or enabled you to, to, to take that path? Because a lot of kids grow up in London, a lot of kids do a lot of things, they have a lot of passions. But for some reason, as I read through your story, football was this... Ballet as well, but football was the, the path that you chose to take above all other things.

Rio Ferdinand 2:48 (sighs) Yeah, it's a good question. 'Cause, uh, when I was younger, I was into everything.

Steven Bartlett 2:51 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 2:52 I was running around on the estate. I was doing gymnastics a couple of times a week. I was doing ballet.

Steven Bartlett 2:57 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 2:58 I was obviously playing football. I was doing athletics. I was g- doing a drama class.

Steven Bartlett 3:02 Why were you doing all those things, though?

Rio Ferdinand 3:03 'Cause I just was interested in it all. I liked it. I enjoyed it. And my mum and dad were really... My mum especially were really like, "If you like something, go and do it. Try it." They were always like that. "Go and do it. What's, what's the, the worst it can do is you, you don't enjoy it." I used to do karate sometimes as well. And I got to a point, I think I was like f- 13 or 14 years old. And obviously my dad was having to come from east Lo- Obviously we lived in South London. He'd drive to east, northeast London, drive home, pick me up from school, take me to West London to play football, back to dropping friends off on the way. It's l- it's hard graft. And in the end, I got to 13, 14 years old and my dad said, "Listen, you're doing a lot at the moment. You're gonna burn yourself out, so let's just pick something that you really enjoy and you want to do and just go for it." And I was like... It was like an easy conversation. It was difficult in that I had to let down, I thought, and disappoint Central School of Ballet where I was doing it, which is a real, like a top school in London, in Farringdon. Um, and I made good friends there, and the other stuff I wasn't too that concerned about it. But f- four years I was, or three or four years I was at the Central School of Ballet so I'd got a good relationships there. Told them I couldn't do it and then went full throttle and full steam ahead with, with football and it was just... It was the best decision I obviously made-

Steven Bartlett 4:23 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 4:24 ... in my life in that sense. But I w- I knew that that was my passion. I liked the other stuff. I enjoyed doing the other stuff. They were good distractions from what was probably going on in my estate as well. Probably my parents thought like that as well.

Steven Bartlett 4:35 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 4:36 But football was just something that I got up every day from, when I knocked on my friend's house, "Borrow a shipple."

Steven Bartlett 4:41 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 4:41 "Let's go and play football," et cetera. So...

Steven Bartlett 4:44 Ballet.

Rio Ferdinand 4:44 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:45 Interesting one.

Rio Ferdinand 4:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:46 Lot of people don't know that you did ballet. And I... But it sounds like you did it at a pretty good level.

Rio Ferdinand 4:51 Yeah. I, I'd done gymnastic, uh, gymnastics at the London Olympic Games and they obviously... I didn't notice there were scouts there from, from ballet schools or someone was watching, or a family friend was there and they said, "Oh, he looks like he might..." I don't know how, what I had or what I was... My posture or something like that, "Looks good to be a ballet dancer." So I went there and I wasn't really one for saying no to stuff. I was like, "I'll, I'll try it. I'll try anything."

Steven Bartlett 5:14 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 5:15 And they said... And one of the reasons I was gonna be able to get off my estate, meet new people, new girls maybe, as a young kid, and then it was in a different part of London, traveling. So I done it.

Steven Bartlett 5:27 It's funny, I read, I read a tweet the other day which was kind of s- uh, linked to something you said there and it said, "On the way up say yes to everything. When you get to the top-"

Rio Ferdinand 5:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:34 "... start saying no to everything."

Rio Ferdinand 5:35 Yeah, yeah. That's great.

Steven Bartlett 5:36 And it's like... Yeah, and it's like... And I'm almost saying that as well, when we... The conversation we're having now about like-

Rio Ferdinand 5:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:40 ... the stuff you're up to now. Now you-

Rio Ferdinand 5:43 Try it.

Steven Bartlett 5:43 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 5:43 Like... What is, what's the... I always think this, what's the worst really that can happen? As long as it's not a health issue-

Steven Bartlett 5:49 I might fail.

Rio Ferdinand 5:50 I might, I might not be good at it. I might fail. Who cares? It's like with the boxing. I wanted to go, try to be... From a professional footballer, just try and be a professional boxer. Crazy, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:00 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 6:00 But what's the worst that can really happen? I lose a fight.... my life goes on. That's it. So, but some people, they can't allow their ego to be squashed, maybe, at certain point, or their pride, and they're sitting there as this macho person, and they- they can't feel vulnerable at any point. And when you try things, there is an element of vulnerability that comes with that-

Steven Bartlett 6:21 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 6:22 ... because you're opening yourself up. You're leaving yourself a bit wide open-

Steven Bartlett 6:25 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 6:25 ... for criticism, for failure. But I'm not scared of failure. I never have been. I don't- I'm not- I'm not fearful, and that's what I try and put in my kids. If you fail, what's- what? Get up and go again.

Steven Bartlett 6:34 People, like, they- they trap themselves in their career, in their sense-

Rio Ferdinand 6:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:37 ... their sort of self-identity, because we were talking before we started chatting about, like, me trying to resist my labels, now I've left Social Chain.

Rio Ferdinand 6:43 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:43 They think they are an X. But from a very, very young age, and I'm kind of connecting the dots now through the rest of your life and even now, you ... were s- you were a kid on the estate in Peckham.

Rio Ferdinand 6:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:53 And that is an identity.

Rio Ferdinand 6:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:55 That's not one that's also conducive with ballet.

Rio Ferdinand 6:57 No, th- it's just such a di- different end of the spectrum.

Steven Bartlett 6:59 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 6:59 Like, you just wouldn't associate one with the other. And again, I- I- I wasn't ... We were speaking, just as you mentioned before, before we came on here, uh, one of the things that I- my mum used to say to me is that "Don't let anyone tell you what you are."

Steven Bartlett 7:12 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 7:13 "Don't be pigeonholed." Do you know what I mean? You go and find out and explore and find out what you are. And you've got to have experiences to get to that point. It's not gonna happen overnight. It's not gonna happen in your childhood. Not in your teens. When you get to become an adult, you'll start working your way on finding out who you are and what you are. And I've always thought that, so going to a ballet school, I could have been ridiculed, my mates, I was one of the boys on the estate. But at the same time, I was confident enough that, "Oh, Rio, you going ballet?" Laughing. "I don't care." What?

Steven Bartlett 7:41 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 7:42 I- I know I'm good at football. I know I'm good ... I'm the fastest runner on the estate in my age group. I can keep up with the older boys. What? Just 'cause I go to ballet, what? There's nothing wrong.

Steven Bartlett 7:50 Who are you?

Rio Ferdinand 7:52 Like-

Steven Bartlett 7:52 And to answer that question, you know, your mum's telling you to go out and find out who you are. Did you ever answer that question?

Rio Ferdinand 7:57 Not really. I don't- I think that question, you don't really answer it in the end. I think you sh- you're always evolving. It's like for instance, it's something you said earlier that pricked my ears about ... You said more or less the same thing just in a different way, probably a more eloquent way, about not wanting to be pigeonholed.

Steven Bartlett 8:11 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 8:12 And like my aim in my life now, like people think you've played football and you've done all these amazing things as a footballer. I- I- I've done really well at football. I acknowledge that. But-

Steven Bartlett 8:21 It's like an understatement, but it's okay.

Rio Ferdinand 8:22 ... but I don't ... That's not enough for me.

Steven Bartlett 8:25 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 8:25 Like my next phase of my life, I don't want to be remembered, when see- someone sees me, my success in my next phase of li- of life is when someone sees me and says, "That's Rio. Do you know Rio?" And they mention something that I'm doing or have done around that time. Not, "That's Rio as a footballer." If people were in 10, 20 years, said, "That's Rio playing for Man United," I ain't really kicked on. I haven't really done what I'm- I'm- I'm here to do, to set- setting out to do, which is to evolve and become something different and make something of myself somewhere else. And I think my family were a lot like that. Whether my mum and dad were successful or not, they were always, to us, "Make something of yourself. Be something." Nothing, there's no- there's no barriers to that. So that's the way I've always kind of, I've thought about things.

Steven Bartlett 9:08 What if it ... What if I said to you now, how would you feel if I said you couldn't ever do anything else and that like, the football thing was it, and now just- ... just stop?

Rio Ferdinand 9:18 I'd laugh, I would laugh. It would make me laugh 'cause I- I- I don't see no, I don't see barriers.

Steven Bartlett 9:23 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 9:23 And I'm fortunate as well, by the way. I understand that, that I've got to a position where there are a lot of boundaries that have been kind of put down ...

Steven Bartlett 9:29 Yeah, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 9:30 ... for me to skip over because of my career as a footballer.

Steven Bartlett 9:33 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 9:34 And you- you're getting that now as someone who's been really successful in your field, so you see that color and age, et cetera, get put to the side because obviously we acknowledge what you've done.

Steven Bartlett 9:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 9:45 And so we do sometimes have it easy. There's not as big a barrier to entry for certain things for us. But then you've still got to go in and produce. You've still got to go and prove yourself. And so even things that I've- I've gone on the board now for a company, the Gym Group-

Steven Bartlett 9:58 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 9:58 ... as a- as an ed.

Steven Bartlett 9:59 Oh, really?

Rio Ferdinand 10:00 Yeah. Which is, is out of my comfort zone because I like fitness, but I don't understand the business behind that and what goes into having a actual- having 125, 180 sites, and managing that, and there's a property arm, and there's a commercial arm, and there's a marketing arm, and- and that all coming together under one umbrella, and having to manage all that and to be a part of those conversations. Like, that stuff is what exci- I- I'm inter- super interested in that type of stuff, in the workings behind the mechanics of all these type of businesses, diff- in different industries. So that's like-

Steven Bartlett 10:32 Do you ever feel out of your depth?

Rio Ferdinand 10:35 Yeah, but I always find something what I can cling onto that- that I just try and find something within a conversation that would allow me to- to- to- to- to gain confidence through talking in that conversation.

Steven Bartlett 10:46 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 10:46 Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 10:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 10:48 Whereas I might not understand everything. And when the conversation's finished and the laptop's closed, I'll- I'll be somewhere looking and finding out I- I didn't understand that. I'll call that person back or I'll call someone on that- on that call just to clear up a few things I haven't quite grasped. But there'll be something within that conversation where I feel that I can add some sort of value.

Steven Bartlett 11:08 That, I think all of that is a com- is a very, again, very synonymous as to why you're like even sat here today.

Rio Ferdinand 11:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 11:13 Because a lot of people in that situation would A, just fucking avoid it from the jump.

Rio Ferdinand 11:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:17 And then B, if they encounter something they don't understand on the call, they'll probably bounce then, or they definitely wouldn't inquire, because by inquiring, you're actually making yourself vulnerable.

Rio Ferdinand 11:26 Vulnerable, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:26 Yeah. A lot of people don't- want to avoid vulnerability, right?

Rio Ferdinand 11:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:29 And being exposed, and- and it's so funny that the people that, uh, from what I'm hearing from you, like the people that achieve the most success are the ones that are at some point willing to look fucking stupid.

Rio Ferdinand 11:38 Yeah, you got to. Like- like no one gets to where they're gonna get on the cleanest, without a bump on the road.

Steven Bartlett 11:43 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 11:43 You don't get ... No, that, you have to have bumps in the road to be able to get there, to experience them vulnerable moments so that when you are there, you know what it's like. And then you can drag people up with you.

Steven Bartlett 11:54 Yeah, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 11:54 And you become stronger with more people. That's how I always think. There's a lot of people who want to get to the top and stay on the top of the mountain on their own and don't want to bring no one up. I don't agree with that. I- I'm always like, I want to share and help and 'cause that is the foundations of me being stronger for a longer period of time and can sustain success.

Steven Bartlett 12:10 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 12:10 But it is- it is-I don't know, it's... I know, an important thing for me as well, which I'm, again, I'm never scared to do is to ask questions. Like it's the same thing with football. You don't understand something, what my manager's telling you or a coach is telling you, don't go away and- and-

Steven Bartlett 12:26 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 12:27 ... and have a bit of a blurred idea of what it is because then you're going to be judged on that-

Steven Bartlett 12:32 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 12:32 ... not understanding and not executing.

Steven Bartlett 12:34 It's going to repeat.

Rio Ferdinand 12:35 Exactly. So you want good habits, but you've got to understand what it is before you can create the habit.

Steven Bartlett 12:40 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 12:40 So that's why I- I try and always ask questions if I'm, if I'm wrong, if I, if I feel I'm not sure or certain, I'll definitely ask questions.

Steven Bartlett 12:46 Isn't that crazy? You, you've, you know, you've achieved all this success, you're a football legend, and yet you're still voluntarily throwing yourself into really uncomfortable situations-

Rio Ferdinand 12:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 12:54 ... which you don't need to be in-

Rio Ferdinand 12:55 Yeah, no.

Steven Bartlett 12:55 ... in terms of finance anyway. Like you don't need to be, or in terms of like a c- status, you don't need to be there. And it's funny because there's loads of people that aren't, haven't achieved that, that are, that will never throw themselves into uncertainty.

Rio Ferdinand 13:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 13:08 But it's- it's... But again, this is probably why you're sat here.

Rio Ferdinand 13:11 Because they're the ones that stay where they are.

Steven Bartlett 13:12 Yeah, exactly. This is probably-

Rio Ferdinand 13:13 They don't-

Steven Bartlett 13:13 ... why you're sat here, it's a philosophy.

Rio Ferdinand 13:14 Yeah, they don't grow, they don't-

Steven Bartlett 13:15 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 13:15 And like... And all those people who will stay there, some of them are like, "Oh, I just want to stay here." But they're, a lot of them are, they're scared to open up because of that vulnerability and then feeling silly if they're told, "Oh, you got it wrong," but it's not... I- I'm not like that. Ev- ev- everyone

Rio Ferdinand 13:30 is on this earth for different reasons, and some people are happy just to be like stay in a situation they're in and- and-

Steven Bartlett 13:35 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 13:35 ... be very happy just going along that- that road and no spikes or- or drops. Uh, uh, I'd rather have a drop at some point, but to get, I know that spike's gonna come somewhere through-

Steven Bartlett 13:47 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 13:47 ... being able to do the things we're talking about.

Steven Bartlett 13:49 Quick one, starting from the minute the lockdown is lifted, we're going to start bringing in some of our subscribers to watch how this podcast is produced behind the scenes. It means you get to meet the guests, meet myself, and see how we put all of this together. If you want that to be you, all you've got to do, hit the subscribe button. In your, in your group cha- group chat with your friends from, uh, from your estate, I heard there's a group chat.

Rio Ferdinand 14:10 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:10 Um, so-

Rio Ferdinand 14:11 Oh, you've been doing the research?

Steven Bartlett 14:12 I do research. (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 14:14 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 14:14 I didn't need to research your career because I was there watching, but just, you know, it was... I was intrigued by when you said you've got this group chat with your, your friends from back home and stuff, and one of the comp- topics of conversation is something that I talk about a lot in this podcast, which is, there's a growing culture of like softness, dare I say it?

Rio Ferdinand 14:30 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:30 And like avoiding discomfort and also there's this crazy thing on Instagram at the moment which is like demonizing hard work as if it's... Like because of the mental health revolution we've had and everyone's... Which is a great thing, and everyone is aware of the impact, you know, of this thing called mental health. There's now this other thing which is like, "Well, you can overwork and you can burn yourself out in hard work." If I advise as an entrepreneur, even though I've never met someone or had anyone sit in this seat who didn't work hard, then I'm somewhat toxic, because I'm telling people that succe- success and hard work are...

Rio Ferdinand 15:02 Yeah. Yeah, and it's like you're- you're- you're looking down on people-

Steven Bartlett 15:06 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 15:06 ... almost like... And I don't... I... Listen, I don't agree with none of that. I've got to be honest.

Steven Bartlett 15:10 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 15:11 Work hard, man. That should be just an absolute normal ask of any person. And I, and I, uh, I always keep talking about my kids because they're a big part of my life, but that's all I talk about with my kids. When they talk to me about school, football, washing up, your chores, that's what's been one of the great things that we've had a lot of negativity about the COVID, uh, situation in this country, staying at home, et cetera, or homeschooling. But one of the great things to come out of it for us as a family, these kids know their chores.

Steven Bartlett 15:39 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 15:39 And they're doing them properly now. That's why I say do your chores right because them habits there will lead on to other things in your life going forward. With your football stuff, you won't take shortcou- shortcuts.

Steven Bartlett 15:49 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 15:49 If you're taking shortcuts with your work, shortcuts with your football, shortcuts making your bed, shortcuts with your schoolwork, homework, et cetera. It- it will all be the same. You need high standards everywhere.

Steven Bartlett 16:00 But are you scared that because they've grown up with, in a different circumstance to what you had-

Rio Ferdinand 16:05 Oh, I always have this conversation. Go on. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:07 Are you... You know what I'm gonna say.

Rio Ferdinand 16:08 Yeah. Like w- what...

Steven Bartlett 16:09 They might-

Rio Ferdinand 16:09 I'm trying to instill that in- in them.

Steven Bartlett 16:11 How do you do that when they're living in like a really nice house and they've got-

Rio Ferdinand 16:14 That's- that's... That is... That is... The guy who comes up with this... The- the- the-

Steven Bartlett 16:19 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 16:19 ... the answers for that is the main man.

Steven Bartlett 16:22 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 16:22 Like, because it's so difficult. I was doing a podcast yesterday with, um, Eddie Hearn.

Steven Bartlett 16:28 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 16:29 And he's like the generation my children are. So his father was well off, successful, and he was where my children are now and he was saying like one of the things that he was, he was scared of being that rich kid.

Steven Bartlett 16:41 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 16:41 Do you know what I mean? And so he'd done everything not to- to go out and work and to go and have a hard- hard- hard-working mentality and to be a success himself rather than to be-

Steven Bartlett 16:49 Our friend Umar was the same.

Rio Ferdinand 16:51 U- Umar, exactly. So Umar is a live- live... All- all three of them, by the way, like that, all three of the, the Komani kids-

Steven Bartlett 16:57 They are, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 16:58 ... they're exactly the same in terms of they've gone out to, they never had to work. Their parents would spoil them.

Steven Bartlett 17:04 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 17:05 And they've all knuckled down and said, "Yeah, we've been given an opportunity."

Steven Bartlett 17:08 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 17:10 Now you got to go and execute. And they've executed beyond belief.

Steven Bartlett 17:13 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 17:13 And I see Mo- Mah- Mahmoud, who's-

Steven Bartlett 17:15 Owner of Boohoo.

Rio Ferdinand 17:16 Yeah. Yeah, of Boohoo, who's the father of Umar and the guys. And that's what I say to him, man, "You must be so happy, man." "What do you mean?" "Your

Rio Ferdinand 17:26 kids, man, what they're doing, how hard they work, created these wicked businesses, but you gave them an opportunity, but what they've done with that, you can't- you can't be disappointed." He said, "No, man." He said that, "For me to sit here and just see them what they're doing what they're doing, that's where I want to be, man." It doesn't, uh, matter how much money you make or how big of a busi- business, my success as a parent is that my kids get up every day, they got a work ethic, and they do stuff to the best of their ability. If they can... If they do that, whate- whatever job they're in-

Steven Bartlett 17:54 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 17:54 ... if they do that, then I think you've done a... you've- you've laid the foundations for good- a good life for your kids.

Steven Bartlett 18:01 Whether it's in... Y- you know, you talk there about high- having high standards being one of the really important things for your kids.

Rio Ferdinand 18:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 18:05 This is something that clearly, you know, was demonstrated when you got to Old Trafford and you- you joined Manchester United, um, with- for that record transfer. But how did- how did they create high standards at Old Trafford versus the other clubs you'd played at, you know, West Ham and Leeds, et cetera? What was it they were doing that kept those standards so high? You then also talk about going to QPR and seeing low standards-

Rio Ferdinand 18:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 18:28 ... and, uh, certain type of negativity in the changing room. But what was it that they were doing or not doing? Because I want to create high standards in my team and within my life, so.

Rio Ferdinand 18:38 Good habits.

Steven Bartlett 18:40 Right.

Rio Ferdinand 18:40 Every day, good habits. Whether it's punctuality, again, work ethic, attention to detail, intensity, when you're, you're training on a training pitch, respecting each other. Like all those things just, they come together and it creates a culture-

Steven Bartlett 18:57 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 18:57 ... at the club. And I'd been at West Ham, I'd been at Leeds, two very good clubs, great clubs. Um, but they, they didn't have that, that culture which meant there was ability to win. But it starts from somewhere. So Alex Ver- so Alex Ferguson already won at Aberdeen, so he could, he, he knew how to create that culture. He went to, to Man United, didn't have that winning mentality at the time when he went there. He created that. And it all stems, I always think great leadership is definitely what gives you an opportunity to be successful, and I, I noticed that throughout my career. And when you've, you've set the foundations and you've created that culture, you don't as a, as a, as a leader have to be there every day in that sense. He was at the training ground every day. How many times do you think he came into our changing room?

Steven Bartlett 19:45 No idea.

Rio Ferdinand 19:46 You wouldn't fill one hand.

Steven Bartlett 19:47 Really?

Rio Ferdinand 19:48 No. Never came in the changing room in the training ground. We're there every day 'cause he, he knew that the culture was set, and then he had lieutenants like me, Giggsy, Gary Neville, et cetera, who were then filtering that down-

Steven Bartlett 20:01 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 20:01 ... to any of the younger players or the new signs-

Steven Bartlett 20:03 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 20:04 ... who didn't know the culture yet. And then that, then those players became the, the culture leaders. And so it was, it was crazy, man. And, and even for instance if he wasn't at the training ground watching training, the training intensity might drop that little one percent, two percent, but you'd notice it because the manager's not there.

Steven Bartlett 20:20 'Cause he wasn't in the building.

Rio Ferdinand 20:21 'Cause he wasn't there. You didn't, you didn't feel him, that aura, that... He could be on his phone making bets, which he normally would be.

Steven Bartlett 20:26 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 20:27 Not interested in training. But his presence alone was enough, and it just made, when you look back and you think this, this... Leadership is just key, and we're talking about investing earlier.

Steven Bartlett 20:36 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 20:36 You don't, uh, investing in the, the, the leader.

Steven Bartlett 20:38 The people, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 20:39 The people, right? It's, it's so important, I think, and then i- I think every industry it's like that. Football's where I'm from and then that's what it's like there, but I see once, since I've retired, that's replicated in other industries 100%.

Steven Bartlett 20:51 Isn't it funny as well with culture, because you're right, what you said there is basically like what I've, uh, something I used to think at Social Chain, which is if the culture's strong enough, new people become like the culture. If this culture's weak, the culture becomes like the new people.

Rio Ferdinand 21:03 100%. Oh, uh-

Steven Bartlett 21:04 Do you know what I mean?

Rio Ferdinand 21:04 ... h- huh, huh, you couldn't have put it any better.

Steven Bartlett 21:06 Yeah (laughs) .

Rio Ferdinand 21:07 And I'll give you an example. Like, and I, again, I didn't, I didn't say it as eloquently as that when I was playing football-

Steven Bartlett 21:14 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 21:16 ... but Berbatov came to Man United.

Steven Bartlett 21:18 Oh, yeah. Casual Babs.

Rio Ferdinand 21:20 He was a wicked player, beautiful touch, sexy looking footballer, wicked, and before a big Champions League game, I think it was Barcelona, he just weren't working hard enough for the team, and I need, I had the ball on this side of the pitch and I needed him to come over and help.

Steven Bartlett 21:35 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 21:36 Man, he's just walking, like, and I ended up just kicking the ball off and going crazy. "What are you do... Get over! What's wrong?" "Wait, when I get over, then we'll do it." And that's again, that's not our culture.

Steven Bartlett 21:46 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 21:47 At Barcelona, they play, they wait, th- that's their culture. That's not our culture. You want to play at Barcelona waiting, go Barcelona.

Steven Bartlett 21:54 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 21:54 Here, it's not the same, and if you don't buy into our culture, you won't be here long.

Steven Bartlett 21:59 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 21:59 And that's the way it was at United. If you came and you weren't in the c- you didn't buy into the culture and immerse yourself in it and become part of the fabric of the place, you weren't there more than a year or two, or you definitely wasn't an integral member of that squad. And so it was definitely like you say, the culture is just, you have to become part of that culture that you go into if it's strong enough.

Steven Bartlett 22:20 You see this in business, it's crazy. You should do... I feel like the perspective you've got from being in that changing room and under s- 'cause this, it's the same principles in business.

Rio Ferdinand 22:27 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:27 It was the same at Social Chain in when, when we grew the company and I realized that I had to be like, "I'm-"

Rio Ferdinand 22:32 Did you drive that?

Steven Bartlett 22:33 Hundred percent.

Rio Ferdinand 22:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 22:35 And my, like, it got to the point where what you've described is people would understand who we were without us having to say, and you'd have your disciples basically introducing new people to the company and going, "That's not a Social Chain thing to do."

Rio Ferdinand 22:47 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 22:47 And we'd get that all the time. You'd say, y- people in the office would go, and for example, and the crazy... The other point I was gonna say is when the culture's that strong, you, it's so easy to see when someone doesn't fit or they, they don't stand out.

Rio Ferdinand 22:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 22:58 We had, you know, someone start on their first day at Social Chain, and they're doing their initiation and then they, at the end of the initiation, they f- did two middle fingers and then walked back to their desk. I said, "Go get him." We fired him. He's gone. First day at Social Chain.

Rio Ferdinand 23:09 Wow.

Steven Bartlett 23:09 And then the second, the second instance where... And it sends a message to the team-

Rio Ferdinand 23:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:13 ... because they, I never knew, I, it was instinctive to me, I said, "That's not a Social Chain person. Get them out." There was another instance where we had a girl join who someone had hired, and they told me that she used to, like, bully people at her last place and she had, like, a really bad attitude and stuff. And actually, one of the guys, two of the guys in our team said, "Oh, yeah. We used to work with her and she was a bit of a bully." So, uh, I, I, I remember having the conversation and I said, "You can't," like, I, in a very, very nice way I said, "She, she can't be here tomorrow because that's not who we are here." And then my team were like, "But we need her for this client. We need her for this project." I was uncompromising. I said, "No, we're not having her here."

Rio Ferdinand 23:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:46 "I don't care if we lose the job." The, you know, "I can't..." I used to say to my team, "I can't have my name attached to a culture, like, where we have people in it who are like that, so she's gone today. I think we'll figure it out. If we lose the client, whatever." And, and it wasn't until years later that you hear the team come back to you and they say, "That moment where you, you weren't willing to let that person we needed in the team because they weren't right for the culture."

Rio Ferdinand 24:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:06 They, the team said that to me. And that's exactly what I hear from you.

Rio Ferdinand 24:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:08 I'm not blowing smoke up my own ass because I didn't realize at the time-

Rio Ferdinand 24:11 Right, but you've recognized that as the-

Steven Bartlett 24:12 ... it, it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't intentional. It was, I just wanted to enjoy my life and the company to be a really, really clear certain way, and I felt that that's what we needed to do to succeed. And in hindsight, and as you say it to me, I'm like, "Oh, yeah." It was-

Rio Ferdinand 24:25 No, it's definitely right.

Steven Bartlett 24:26 ... being non-negotiable, right?

Rio Ferdinand 24:27 Yeah, and that's what Sir Alex Ferguson was great at. If he saw something that was gonna be detrimental to the culture of the club, it was out. That was a non-negotiable.

Steven Bartlett 24:36 Even if you needed them?

Rio Ferdinand 24:37 So you look at Roy Keane.

Steven Bartlett 24:38 Yeah, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 24:38 He was the captain, was the leader.... the rule's been broken, you're gone. David Beckham-

Steven Bartlett 24:44 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 24:44 ... peak of his powers-

Steven Bartlett 24:45 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 24:46 ... going out of a Spice Girl, bringing all sorts of eyeballs to the football club, making it international play. See you later. Jaap Stam, the best center half in the world at the time, said something about some of the players in a book or something, goodbye. Ruud van Nistelrooy, the best number nine in the world at the time, goodbye. All right. If you don't f- fit the culture and you don't adhere to the rules that are there, good night, and we'll move on, and we'll build around other people. It's cra- ... It's like ... And wh- ... At the time, you sit there and you think, "Becks, you can't sell Becks, man."

Steven Bartlett 25:21 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 25:22 "Jesus, who's going to come in?" Like, pft, it's like, number seven, sells all the shirts. Like, everyone loves him. Everywhere we go, Becks is like a Beatles, like, crazy. Same with Ruud van Nistelrooy. You're thinking, "How are we gonna score goals now, man? Who's gonna score us the goals?" Rooney and, and Ronaldo were s- are really young still and inexperienced. But he had that belief and that vision just to, like ... It was the culture over everything. I agree.

Steven Bartlett 25:46 No one's bigger than the club, right? I used to hear-

Rio Ferdinand 25:46 Yeah, no one's bigger than the club, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:47 ... him say that all the time.

Rio Ferdinand 25:48 It's so true, man. And, and, again, like you say, that reverberates around the dressing room.

Steven Bartlett 25:52 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 25:53 Right? You better stay in line. You better just, like, live by the rules that are here already and stay part of that culture, the hard work, the intensity, the respect. And so, like, he, he, he would dig out the most experienced player who hasn't even done anything, and you'd sit there and go, "What? Like, why's he shouting at me for?" But he was doing that to you 'cause he knew you could take it, but the effect that it'll have on the young ones, or the other ones. Do you know what I mean? So playing the mind games, man, I love it. It's good. But you only re- ... It's the mad thing is, in- when you're in it-

Steven Bartlett 26:24 You don't know.

Rio Ferdinand 26:24 ... like you were saying, you were talking about social chain, you probably didn't realize at the time-

Steven Bartlett 26:27 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 26:27 ... but when you sit back and you're outside and you look back in that bubble, you think, "Shit, man, yeah. That's why. I didn't think about it, but that's why I done it."

Steven Bartlett 26:37 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 26:37 And it was right.

Steven Bartlett 26:38 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 26:39 And I'm right now, or I'm wrong, whatever it is. Do you know what I mean? And that's how we think about, like, certain things that Fergie done, and you think, "Actually, he weren't just lucky, man. He actually ... He obviously was plotting and planning that type of stuff."

Steven Bartlett 26:52 I, um, I wonder how much of that stuff was intentional with him though, in terms of, like, he ... I'm sure he wasn't going in the back room and planning it. It's just, like, surely it's just, like, who he was. And I sometimes think, you know, you get managers that will come into clubs and they'll try and be like Fergie, but you can't, because you can't act for that long and that consistently. Because from what you're saying about Fergie, it's like, it's not, like, four things he's doing, it's a thousand things he's doing consistently which show his values.

Rio Ferdinand 27:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:17 Right? And you can't act for 27 years, whatever it is, across a thousand touch points. So it makes me feel like, like, a- a- how'd you teach that? Like, Ferg- it was in- it was ... It almost was like it was just instinctive to Fergie.

Rio Ferdinand 27:28 Yeah, I think it was instinctive. He was a ... He's ... That was just him. He ... And, and don't forget his experience as well would've played a big part in that. He was at the club for, like, 26 or so years, 27 years, so that's ... There's a, uh, a valuable amount of experience gained in that time. But I always look at it like when I went into the Man United changing room, I sat there and just looked around and thought, "Who's good at what? And let me just take elements of th- of these people and add it to my, my game and my preparation and my recovery." And that's what I done. Ryan Giggs was great at recovery and preparation. Done yoga and stuff like that. Took that out of his, of his, of his book. Roy Keane, leadership, the way he demanded standards on a daily basis. Scholes, its best levels in training every day. Like, all them things, I was just trying to, trying to be like little pe- pa- uh, parts of different people.

Steven Bartlett 28:14 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 28:14 And then that allows hopefully for you to grow into a better person, a better player,

Rio Ferdinand 28:18 et cetera. And I think that's the same with, with other industries and business since I retired. It's like, you go in and try and be like someone else, you're gonna fail, because you can't be like the original. But if you're taking bits from elsewhere, you might be able to get beyond that, what you see as the best, because you're getting more. You're taking more good things from that person but then from various other people to build maybe past that.

Steven Bartlett 28:40 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 28:41 And that's the way I try and work with stuff now in my life. There's no one person gonna ma- that's gonna make me the best at what I wanna be.

Steven Bartlett 28:48 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 28:49 But a, a group and taking from everywhere, I've got a better chance.

Steven Bartlett 28:53 People never talk about the things that Fergie was bad at. Well, Roy Keane does, but other than that, I never hear people saying ... And I've got his book somewhere knocking around as well. But you never hear players talking about some of the things where you think, "Do you know what? I actually think he would've gone, been more successful if he didn't do that thing."

Rio Ferdinand 29:09 Do you know? It's weird. When people die or when people retire-

Steven Bartlett 29:13 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 29:13 ... you only remember the good stuff, really.

Steven Bartlett 29:15 Mm-hmm. Interesting.

Rio Ferdinand 29:16 You only think about what they were ... They, their, their existence before becomes magnified and you ... They're built up even bigger sometimes. And Fergie, I think that's with him as well. Because you just don't ... You don't think ... I can think of instances or, or tactics he's got wrong. That's easy to find. But, but he'd always make stuff right. It was weird. Like, um, even for instance, the anti-racism stuff.

Steven Bartlett 29:42 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 29:44 And the situation is when I saw a documentary my brother, brother done.

Steven Bartlett 29:46 Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 29:47 Yeah. So he won-

Steven Bartlett 29:47 They've been talking about it.

Rio Ferdinand 29:47 ... a couple of awards actually yesterday.

Steven Bartlett 29:49 I saw that story as well.

Rio Ferdinand 29:50 But, uh, yeah. So he, um ... The situation happened with him and John Terry, and I decided not to wear the, the next ... Well, one of ... During that period, once a year, all the teams are given T-shirts, Show Racism the Red Card or Kick Racism Out, one of the campaigns. I wasn't willing to wear it 'cause I didn't believe that they supported enough in the ... during that s- that time. So I said, "I'm not wearing it." He went crazy. Fine me. I was like ... We ended up winning the game, which was okay, which is lucky, but the next day I, I went into his office to just try and explain to him why I hadn't worn the T-shirt. And to be fair, he, he said, "You know what? I understand. And I'm sorry for the way I reacted." But, like, stuff like that, he might make a mistake or he done that wrong, but he'd always rectify it. He'd always come back round. He'd get you back round somehow. And 'cause he would just like a ... I don't know. He just, he knew how to dr- deal with people. He knew how to treat people.... to get the best out of them for what his main goal was.

Steven Bartlett 30:53 How'd you teach that?

Rio Ferdinand 30:54 Pfft, I don't know, man. That's just the st- I think that's something that's inside, being able to deal with people, read people, treat your team.

Steven Bartlett 31:00 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 31:01 Do you know what I mean? So that they're running through brick walls for you. 'Cause he'd come in a room and he'd say to you, "You're not playing," and I'd be s- you'd want to scream and you'd be, like, blood would be boiling. But he'd leave the room, and you go into the changing room, and you're sitting in there geeing everyone up, "Come on boys," not sulking, 'cause he's told you Tuesday you're playing. "Because I need you for that game. You've missed this one, this is a big game, but you're gonna play on Tuesday." Like, normally you miss a game, you d- you, you want to go home and cry about it, do you know what I mean? But he's managed to build you back up. And that's man management. And in any industry, that's, that's like a massive part of, again, the culture, but maintaining and sustaining a, a successful company or a successful football club. You need to be able to build people, pick them up, knock them down sometimes, but be able to keep them on that track with you.

Steven Bartlett 31:50 The contradiction I hear wi- with- within, like, the story you recount of Sir Alex versus the one I see in the newspapers, is you hear about the, you know, kicking the football boot at Beckham, and this guy who on the s- who on the sidelines looks like he's out of control. But, what you're describing-

Rio Ferdinand 32:04 Calculated.

Steven Bartlett 32:04 ... is like super self-aware.

Rio Ferdinand 32:06 Yeah, calculated. Everything's-

Steven Bartlett 32:07 And he's actually pretending to be out of control-

Rio Ferdinand 32:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:09 ... when he needs to be.

Rio Ferdinand 32:10 So, we used to talk about it all the time, especially me and Nemanja Vidic. And, vid- Vida's a deep guy, loves talking about deep stuff, gets deep into stuff.

Steven Bartlett 32:18 Really?

Rio Ferdinand 32:18 Yeah, he loves it. Like-

Steven Bartlett 32:19 Thought he was just a murderer. (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 32:20 No, no. He just loves, like, the beyond, behind, "Well, how's he thinking about that?" Et cetera. We used to always talk about the manager. And like, you look back and it's like anything he, everything he done was like calculated. Like, the way he spoke on the TV, blaming the ref. It's like very rarely did he come on ... or he didn't come on TV and ever hammer none of the players individually. We could lose a game, and the referee would be the fr- the back page the next day. But he's taking the heat off us. He's making us think about it, it's not us. We're not down in the doldrums, it's because of the referee. That's dangerous sometimes, because you've got, everybody's got to be self-accountability. But he makes, there's enough self-accountability in the building, but also the focus is over there now, not on us as a team, so we go again-

Steven Bartlett 33:06 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 33:06 ... without that pressure. "Oh, they've lost. They're not as good anymore. But the referee was the reason."

Steven Bartlett 33:11 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 33:11 Do you know what I mean? Just like that's just like calculated, this is what I'm doing for the goodness of my team and the betterment of my team, it's good, man.

Steven Bartlett 33:18 But people think anger, and like you were a player that wouldn't, wasn't afraid to shout at someone. I heard you-

Rio Ferdinand 33:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:22 ... talking about some of the players you gave a hard time, like Anderson, et cetera.

Rio Ferdinand 33:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:26 What, what is-

Rio Ferdinand 33:27 Still. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 33:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 33:28 In the chat group, in the, in the WhatsApp group.

Steven Bartlett 33:29 (Laughs) Yeah, really?

Rio Ferdinand 33:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:31 What, what role does anger play in leadership then? Because you see it in football, but if, if, if I were to start screaming at people in the same way that you did to-

Rio Ferdinand 33:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:39 ... I don't know, Bubba or whatever. Imagine if I just fucking kicked this table and said to the team-

Rio Ferdinand 33:42 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:42 ... "What the fuck, the camera's not working." I would be, I'd, I'd probably be canceled 'cause everyone would walk out.

Rio Ferdinand 33:47 Yeah. I, I talk about this with my missus quite a lot now. We, like ... some of the stuff that we ... I'll t- when I, when we're talking about memories and whatnot, and how we spoke to so-and-so, or what's happened in the changing room, would never happen in the office. 'cause it's like you say, it's like that, that relationship's over.

Steven Bartlett 34:02 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 34:02 It's gone too far. Whereas you could have a fight at football, and then you're shaking hands and having a laugh in the shower after. It's so different. It's just a different way of, of working. But, I think it's understanding people. I don't think you treat any two people the same, in that sense. Just, like, it's a ... the, the blanket treatment I don't think is the, is the best way to treat a team. Because everyone's different, everyone takes advice differently, everyone takes criticism diff- differently. So, you've got to be able to pick the right people to be able to shout at, to pick the right people you've got to get an arm around.

Steven Bartlett 34:32 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 34:33 And, and that's about, as again, a, a manager, a captain knowing that team, knowing that play- like the players individually. All this coming in to work and ghosting everybody is not ... I don't get it. I don't think you can create that environment for success-

Steven Bartlett 34:47 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 34:47 ... if you're going to come in and not know nobody. And that is ... another one of his, Sir Alex's great traits is that he knew everything about everyone. Like if you're, you're ... my grandad was in hospital once. Met my grandad probably twice in the, in the, uh, player's lounge after a game. Knew my grandad's favorite drink, brandy. The flowers turned up at my mum's house. Do you know what I mean? It's like-

Steven Bartlett 35:10 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 35:11 ... that stuff there, them people are coming to work for you every day-

Steven Bartlett 35:15 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 35:15 ... after stuff like that. It's little things, little details. Not any time out of your diary, really. His PA's probably done it all.

Steven Bartlett 35:21 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 35:22 But his name's at the bottom.

Steven Bartlett 35:23 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 35:23 It's like big ... it's, it's little, little percentages like that are just a, a key.

Steven Bartlett 35:29 It's funny, 'cause tho- those little gestures hel- help you know that he does care about you-

Rio Ferdinand 35:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:33 ... regardless of what happens on the training ground or in the match.

Rio Ferdinand 35:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:35 Fundamentally, he cares about you and wants you to do well.

Rio Ferdinand 35:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:38 And he's ... you know what I mean? You're not enemies, you are in ... so, I think by him setting that as the foundation, it's clear that having that as a foundation allows him to put pressure on-

Rio Ferdinand 35:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:49 ... in the right places, it seems.

Rio Ferdinand 35:51 Yeah. And he ... and you're not his mate.

Steven Bartlett 35:52 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 35:52 Never.

Steven Bartlett 35:53 Oh, really?

Rio Ferdinand 35:53 No, you're not. You're not his mate. I speak to him more now than I did when I played.

Steven Bartlett 35:56 Really?

Rio Ferdinand 35:57 Because there was that line.

Steven Bartlett 35:59 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 35:59 And that he felt was always needed to be there, that, that you, we can have a little laugh here and there, but in the end of the day, I'm the manager.

Steven Bartlett 36:06 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 36:07 You guys do your thing there and have a laugh, et cetera, but the- then there's that line you don't go past, so. But he just got it right, and I think that's down to experience as well. He would've learnt that. And a lot of the guys used to say he was, he was even crazier before you guys came, when he was younger. So, he's obviously wor- he ... and he, he worked out as well that the, the new generation of player couldn't take that anger and that craziness like the old generation. Like, probably my generation was probably the last generation that you could do that with. The next ones, the younger ones, that Anderson, Zanoni, the Ronaldos, et cetera, that's not the way that they would ... they would, they don't respond as well to that type of criticism and anger and aggressiveness.

Steven Bartlett 36:54 What was the angriest you ever saw him?

Rio Ferdinand 36:59 Too many times. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 37:00 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 37:00 There was too many times. The times when he kicked the boot at Becks' head was a, was a-

Steven Bartlett 37:03 And you were in there?

Rio Ferdinand 37:04 ... crazy one, yeah. That was crazy.

Steven Bartlett 37:06 What happened? Wouldn't it be great if we could make looking after yourself, your nutrition and your health cool again? And I think this is ultimately what Huel has done in my life, and as I reflect on the last couple of years, that Huel has been the easiest way for me to become a better human. And for me being a better human meant having better health. It meant by having mental health, more energy, being more focused on my work, and that's exactly what Huel's done for me. I hope we can make being healthier cool, especially as we emerge from this lockdown where we've all realized how important and foundational health is. And I think Huel's a great way to do that. Try it out, give it a go. Everyone that has ... You know, I get lots of photos on Instagram and Twitter of people that have tried Huel and started their Huel journey, brings a little bit of joy to my heart because not only have you, um, are you a listener of the podcast but also because I know that you're on a journey to make your, your life and your health a lot better. And that, if you know, think about all the sponsors I could have had, to have a sponsor that I genuinely believe can help you change your life is a, is a privilege, um, that I'm glad to now. What was the angriest you ever saw him?

Rio Ferdinand 38:07 Too many times. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:08 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 38:09 There was too many times. The times when he kicked the boot at Becks' head was a, was a-

Steven Bartlett 38:12 And you were in there?

Rio Ferdinand 38:13 ... crazy one, yeah. That was crazy.

Steven Bartlett 38:15 What happened?

Rio Ferdinand 38:17 It, uh, it was, uh, it was mad. It was fu- (laughs) it was funny, man. It was actually funny, I've got to be honest, I can't lie.

Steven Bartlett 38:23 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 38:23 But the manager was ... He kicked the boot in anger because he asked Becks to do something tactically that he didn't carry out. And he booted the ... And listen, anybody, I don't care what, Ronaldo's playing today or Messi, wouldn't have hit the target the way he hit the target.

Steven Bartlett 38:36 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 38:36 It was, it was so clean and the ball went in slow mo, like (imitates sound) bang, and it hit him in the head. And then obviously Becks got, was upset, got up and I just remember the gaffer was devastated. You could tell, you could see when you looked at him, he sat down and he was just slumped almost like ... Pff. He d- that's not what he done, he kicked the boot for. He kicked it in anger and he accidentally hit-

Steven Bartlett 38:57 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 38:57 ... Becks in the head, so he looked devastated with it, but that was one that was ... I'd had a few scrapes with him

Rio Ferdinand 39:04 in terms of I didn't agree with things that he'd done a couple of times and s- I was screaming and he didn't, he didn't take too well to it and he lost it and he just would go purple over the top of you and just spray you, screaming in front of you like that, like crazy. So but he was, uh, what it was, it was never personal which is that why you respected it and you kind of, it kind of, it kind of always was washed away because he ... You knew that deep down he want, just wants you to do well.

Steven Bartlett 39:32 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 39:33 Do you know what I mean? It wasn't vindictive, it wasn't personal. Just do what I'm telling you to do and you will, will win.

Steven Bartlett 39:39 I heard you say that that culture isn't there now.

Rio Ferdinand 39:43 It's t- it's all friendly now, innit?

Steven Bartlett 39:45 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 39:45 Everyone's mates, everyone's like, for instance, everyone's mates and commenting on each other's posts on social media. So you're more attached to someone, you're more involved with someone. Whereas before, I would only see certain players twice a year, home and away. So I've got no attachment to you, so it's for, to me, have a bit of venom or to go at you a little bit was normal and I've got no qualms about doing that because I ain't gonna see you again. Don't care. I might see you at England camp or something like that, but I don't ... That's like three or four times a year. So-

Steven Bartlett 40:19 We're colleagues.

Rio Ferdinand 40:20 Exactly. We're not really matey.

Steven Bartlett 40:22 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 40:23 Whereas now, you know, in the tunnel we're all shaking, cuddling, "Yeah, man, comment on your post the other day," ra-ra-ra. It's very different. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's just different.

Steven Bartlett 40:30 Is it bad?

Rio Ferdinand 40:31 So I don't know. It's just like, it's, it's different. So going into a, into battle, into a game, I've got no emotional ties or no social media ties to anybody.

Steven Bartlett 40:42 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 40:43 So I can, it, it, there seemed to be that bit more. It ... I don't know if there's more passion before to now, but it seemed to be like there was.

Steven Bartlett 40:51 Yes. Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 40:52 Because, and I think all of this stuff with social media makes it a bit more fluffy and people hugging and shaking hands and whatnot now because they've spoken or had a message or liked a, a post. Very different.

Steven Bartlett 41:04 Me and my, m- my friends in my Manchester United chat, when, uh, one of the observations that we have all the time is like, "Why is, why has everyone been so nice to each other?" And-

Rio Ferdinand 41:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:11 ... you, you, w- I remember last week there was a, a tweet went out from one of the United l- um, press people and it was just a quote of something Harry Maguire had said on the field.

Rio Ferdinand 41:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:20 And it basically screamed at, I don't know-

Rio Ferdinand 41:22 Rashford.

Steven Bartlett 41:22 ... Rash or someone else, yeah. And it said like, "Get fucking back in line," or whatever.

Rio Ferdinand 41:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:25 It's like trending on Twitter.

Rio Ferdinand 41:26 Yeah, yeah 'Cause you don't see it.

Steven Bartlett 41:27 And it's like ... 'Cause you don't see it anymore. And then, and then also, uh, you know, love him, love him or whatever, but watching, uh, Ole fist bump the managers with a smile on his face. We, we've been grown up as United fans-

Rio Ferdinand 41:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:39 ... with a cert- we would, Fergie would look fucking furious to even have to look at the opposing manager, and, and it just feels different now. And then we look at where we are and how we're performing in the big games and we're not winning like we used to and we're all saying, "Ah, that, you know, we're, we're becoming like Arsenal or something." (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 41:55 Mm-hmm. We, we, everyone always like clings onto the history and, and the past.

Steven Bartlett 42:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 42:00 That's, that's the problem as a football fan. I'm the same, like you just want it to be like it was before, please.

Steven Bartlett 42:04 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 42:04 Like, but it's never gonna be the same. It may be as successful or even more successful one day, but it will never be the same. So our expectation level sometimes will just have to change a little bit. But yeah, I mean, uh, again, like it was coming in anyway because like for instance I remember Gerard Pique hugging and, and fist bumping, et cetera, in the tunnel with Fabregas. Now we were mad rivals with Arsenal at that point, like Pizzagate and all that stuff. And he got hammered after that, Pique, in our changing room. "What are you doing?" Before a game, we were sitting there chatting or, or always would make fun of him a little bit. There's two different ways you ridicule and get someone in line, either humor or being firm. And he probably got both, but it was, it w- that was a ch- you could sense a change coming. It was coming and obviously social media, I think has accelerated that, definitely.

Steven Bartlett 42:54 Ed Woodward as well. There's a lot of controversy surrounding him at the moment, again-

Rio Ferdinand 42:57 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:57 ... 'cause, for better or for worse-

Rio Ferdinand 42:58 Should we get him on?

Steven Bartlett 42:59 No, not yet. No. It'd be good. Yeah. When the, when the, when we can travel a little bit more, we'll, we'll let, I think he'll, he'll come on. But, um-I, I remember hearing the story about the exit treatment that you had with him, and I wondered if you were still somewhat bitter about that. I heard, you know, y- uh, one of your last games at the club, and he comes into the training room and tells you that you're, you're not gonna be playing for the club anymore. You didn't get your send off.

Rio Ferdinand 43:22 Yeah, of course. I think there's noth- there's nothing that anyone could tell me that wouldn't make me feel that was the wrong way.

Steven Bartlett 43:29 Would Fergie have done that?

Rio Ferdinand 43:30 No.

Steven Bartlett 43:30 In Fergie's era?

Rio Ferdinand 43:31 No. He would've told me before the end of the season 'cause he know what it mean, but the difference is that Fergie was a footballer. And he knows what it means. He knows what it is to be able to say, "Thank you for your support," et cetera, to just have that little runway to a send off. Now, listen, I understand not everybody can have it that way, but if you've got, if you know-

Steven Bartlett 43:50 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 43:50 ... and you've got the opportunity to give someone the best possible route out of a, a situation, you give it to them. Now, in my situation, I think it was, you could see down the line from month, a month, two months before that, that you knew what was gonna happen with me, so give me the opportunity to have the best possible send off given the time, given the relationship that I'd built with the club. So, that was my, my only discrepancy with the whole way it worked out because it wasn't like, oh, actually, a knee-jerk situation, knee-jerk decision. So, but I think, listen, Ed knows how I feel about it, but we've moved on past that. I speak to him on the phone ab- about various different things anyway and we meet up sometimes, so it's cool.

Steven Bartlett 44:29 But those small moments, that's an isolated incident.

Rio Ferdinand 44:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:33 But that's, that, uh, isolated incident is attached to a wider philosophy in the same way that Fergie had this, like, wider philosophy of, like, you know, sending your, y- your grandad the, the flowers, and that's attached to a wider philosophy. So, although that's just one instance, I think the risk that I would see, and when I hear things like that is I think, "Well, that same philosophy of, like, not really caring, being that empathetic-"

Rio Ferdinand 44:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:55 "... has got to be popping up in other places, right?" Like-

Rio Ferdinand 44:57 Oh, 100%. And that, again, and we've, and we've said culture about 10 times already in this conversation.

Steven Bartlett 45:03 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 45:04 But that's cu- that's a cu- that's part of a culture.

Steven Bartlett 45:07 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 45:07 Like, there has to be, like you say, compassion, empathy, respect. And-

Steven Bartlett 45:13 It's a family, right? Like, that's what the club was.

Rio Ferdinand 45:15 And that was the way I used to explain Man United. I left Leeds, which was like a family, a small, I used to say, "This is a smaller version," without obviously the success, but a smaller version in terms of the people here, been here for 30 years, 40 years, 20 years. My dad used to work here. My mom used to work here. Like, it's a family club. Man United was that when I was there. My fear is that it becomes something else.

Steven Bartlett 45:38 Some of the waiting staff, I had a box at Man United.

Rio Ferdinand 45:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:41 And it's funny, it's, this is a, a staggering thing b- for me 'cause you don't think, oh, you know, the, the waiting staff in the box are gonna notice a cultural shift at the club.

Rio Ferdinand 45:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:51 Right? But they would tell me, they, they said to me, "You know, when Fergie and David Gill were here, it was different." I'm like, "How did it touch the waiting staff that served me steak?"

Rio Ferdinand 45:59 Because they know all their names.

Steven Bartlett 46:01 Yes. That's what they said to me.

Rio Ferdinand 46:03 They know all their names. They, it's like-

Steven Bartlett 46:04 They had a relationship. David Gill-

Rio Ferdinand 46:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:06 ... had a relationship with the, the person giving me a steak. And it, and I just thought that was staggering that this, you know... And you think of how strong the culture must be and how important it must be for the waiter giving me, uh, you know, some chips to be like, "It's different now."

Rio Ferdinand 46:18 The dinner lady at the, the training ground, I actually spoke to her on the way here, funny enough, she sent me a voice note, but the dinner lady, Carol, she could have banter with direc- the manager or David Gill. Like, n- first name terms. Banter that had been spread over a number of years so they could go b- and have a proper-

Steven Bartlett 46:35 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 46:35 ... back and forth. He knew the name of the groundsman. Like, there was like... And that, and if, if I, if I'm at Man United now, that is the part where I'm going. That, that has to be recreated. Bring that back. 'Cause that's a strength, like I said before about strength in numbers. That's the foundation of the football club. People come in that place and think, "Oh, my God. They're all Man United here. They all feel part of it." That, that creates-

Steven Bartlett 47:02 And does that start with Fergie and David at the top? Does that-

Rio Ferdinand 47:04 I, uh, yeah, I think it has to. And that's why I look back on things like that, and, like, you, you speak to any of the people that work there, that, that was a big part of it. I, 'cause everyone thinks it's the f- it's the, it's the first 11. The f-

Steven Bartlett 47:16 (laughs) .

Rio Ferdinand 47:16 ... the team, the squad, the first team that play, that's the Man United. It's not. It's the fans, and it's all the people that work behind the scenes to enable that first 11, that team, that squad to go out there and perform.

Steven Bartlett 47:28 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 47:28 If them people out, around that aren't working, that's what the managers used to say, "All these people, the kit man, the phys- the physio, nutritionist, the dinner lady, et cetera, these lot help you, enable you to be successful. So don't forget that."

Steven Bartlett 47:40 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 47:41 Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 47:42 And all those people have an expectation of the performance and, like, the, they all become winners. Like, as a United fan growing up-

Rio Ferdinand 47:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:49 ... I was like, "We win."

Rio Ferdinand 47:50 Yeah, 100%.

Steven Bartlett 47:51 And, and that, you know, as a fan I was like, "Yeah, no, we, we come and we win."

Rio Ferdinand 47:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:55 And then at some point when Fergie left, I'm like, "I'm not so sure really what happens sometimes."

Rio Ferdinand 47:59 Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:59 And, you know, that crazy thing Fergie had in the last couple of minutes of every game where you thought, "We're gonna fucking win this. There's only two minutes left." But somehow-

Rio Ferdinand 48:05 But, you know, like, the, all the things I just mentioned there about the club as well, that does, that is a byproduct of success as well. It, that becomes easier-

Steven Bartlett 48:12 It's like a self-fulfilling cycle, right?

Rio Ferdinand 48:14 Yeah, exactly. When you're winning, it's like everything, when you're successful and you're winning, everything's kinda run smoothly, doesn't it?

Steven Bartlett 48:19 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 48:20 And then obviously when things start to go a little bit wrong, you see so many more bumps in the road, so many more splinter groups come out and start pointing the finger, et cetera. So, I just think that it's, it's keeping it, getting that culture right and getting the people who feel part of the club, and then you win with that as well. There's no better kind of .......................... And you got to defend it, right? You got to defend the culture again. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:43 'Cause the culture's the thing that made you win.

Rio Ferdinand 48:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:45 And so you might get some, you know, big, people getting too big for their boots or whatever, or distracted, and then Fergie's just got this great reputation of being, defending that culture as the most important thing. And I, you, that's, you know, people say, "Why did he win? How d- how did he win for 20 odd years? No one else has managed to do that in the modern era." And it's just like, "Pfft."

Rio Ferdinand 49:04 But it's, it's... I always put it down to as well, things like dedication, desire. But he was always the first thing at training ground.I tried, used to try and beat him to get in the training ground sometimes. Take my kids to school and get there, like, we used to be, start at like half nine. Used to be in at half nine. I used to get in sometimes at eight o'clock and his car's there already. Last to leave most of the time. Uh, he has, that's again, like, goes back to the point I was talking about, showing your kids rather than telling them.

Steven Bartlett 49:32 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 49:32 Be early, be there. Just be there. You, you're there, there, then they know. You, he's always there. He can't be late.

Steven Bartlett 49:38 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 49:39 Why are you late? The manager's there, he's been 26 years, and you're, and he's, he's early every day and you're not. He's obviously prepping. Like, you don't do your prep work in the gym, why?

Steven Bartlett 49:49 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 49:49 I remember Roy Keane called a meeting, called a meeting 'cause he thought that the young players weren't doing the extras. Well, why are you going home before an ex- that experienced player there?

Steven Bartlett 49:59 Is that what he said to them?

Rio Ferdinand 50:00 I mean, yeah, when you're, you're at the start of, of the ladder.

Steven Bartlett 50:03 How, what, so he called an actual meeting?

Rio Ferdinand 50:05 Yeah, so like he just said to the lads, "Listen guys," like after training or come in or before training, "All come in the changing room." And everyone sat down and he was like, "Listen, I've gotta say it 'cause I'm seeing it every day and it ain't good for the club. Some of you young boys, I'm seeing you and some are even the older, uh, uh, the, the players that are a little bit older than that, but how can you be going home before him? He's doing extras, working outside, or he goes in the gym, or before training I see so-and-so doing that and you're just messing about in, in the, in the, uh, uh, canteen," or something like that. "It's valuable time, don't miss it. Short career." Things like that. But that's again, the manager allowing people to manage the changing room.

Steven Bartlett 50:40 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 50:40 And that's how it was there. You had people that managed the changing room and you had the manager that oversaw it all.

Steven Bartlett 50:46 What was the difference between some players that arrived at Manchester United and ultimately ended up reaching their potential, and then some that don't? And there's been a lot of t- you know, well-written about players that never reached their potential. Is, was there a commonality that you saw that made it... 'Cause I'm like Gary Neville, I'm like, he wasn't the most (laughs) ... I like the guy. You know, I've, he's actually managed me once in his charity game. Like the guy, but he didn't strike me as the most naturally talented player.

Rio Ferdinand 51:11 Hard work.

Steven Bartlett 51:12 But he f-... Yeah. And then you've got that-

Rio Ferdinand 51:14 So hard work, dedication, attention to detail, application on a daily basis. Like, this is the thing, a lot of people think, "I've worked hard for two weeks and I've got, I haven't, I haven't got any rewards out of it. The manager's still not playing me, I'll give up." No. That's gotta be, we were talking before, a lifestyle.

Steven Bartlett 51:29 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 51:30 Hard work every day is a lifestyle. That should be like the standard.

Steven Bartlett 51:34 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 51:35 That's the standard that, that is here. And you've gotta be at that every day. There's none

Rio Ferdinand 51:39 of this taking your foot off the pedal, because it's difficult. Well, and, um, Carlos Queiroz said to me, "You can't just switch it on and off." Like that mentality, that intensity, the dedication, the hard work on a daily, but you can't just go, "I'll work hard on Monday to Wednesday, Thursday, Friday I'll just chill, and then Saturday, switch it on again."

Steven Bartlett 51:56 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 51:57 No. Habits, lifestyle, all the time like that. So when it comes to match time, it's not a big shift, 'cause your body can't deal with that, your mind can't deal with that. If it's normalized, this is normal on a Saturday, three o'clock, 60,000 people screaming, 100 million people around the world. That's not pressure. I do this every day.

Steven Bartlett 52:14 One of the, like, alienating things when people might hear you talk and they think, "Oh wow," almost intimidating is like well Rio's mentality is just so fucking, like, disciplined and, you know, he's got it night and day.

Rio Ferdinand 52:23 No, I did... Listen, I, I weren't perfect.

Steven Bartlett 52:25 This is what I was gonna ask.

Rio Ferdinand 52:26 Let's not get into it. I weren't perfect.

Steven Bartlett 52:26 Is like tell me about, tell me how you weren't perfect.

Rio Ferdinand 52:28 You know, I weren't perfect. It took me a long time to start understanding, like, your body, understanding your mindset and my state of mind had to, to be at tip-top condition, both mentally and physically on a, on a game day. And at West Ham I didn't have it, Leeds I didn't have it, 'cause I was inconsistent. I was real... I'd train hard, but then I'd be going out every, every other night. I'd go out four or five times a week. Parties. Pissed. At West Ham I don't remember a lot of results or certain things when people say, "Well, what about that game when you..." I actually can't remember. I was that, I used to be going out and get pissed so often. And then I got to Man United and I just was surrounded by people that had won and I was desperate to win. So what do you do to win? I'm gonna copy off him, him, him, like we spoke about before.

Steven Bartlett 53:17 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 53:17 And then you become part of that. And then you realize that none of these lot are going out all the time. So if I'm gonna go out and continue that lifestyle I had before, my levels are obviously gonna, always gonna be a bit below these guys 'cause you can't s- sustain that.

Steven Bartlett 53:34 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 53:34 You're always working at, from a less, from a, a lower standpoint. So, you know, I, I changed that. And listen, I still made mistakes, but my intentions and my desire was to always be as good as I could be. I wanted to be better than Vida, Vidic.

Steven Bartlett 53:49 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 53:50 John Terry, Sol Campbell. I need to be the best. When people talk about the best center back, I need to be the first name on their lips. So what, what can I do? I was that obsessed with it.

Steven Bartlett 53:58 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 53:59 Do you know what I mean? And, uh, the-

Steven Bartlett 54:01 Why? Why did it matter?

Rio Ferdinand 54:02 The lads wouldn't probably have ha- the lads wouldn't have probably r- known how in, obsessed I was with it, 'cause I would never show that really. But inside, the thought that someone thought that someone else is a better center back than me used to like...

Rio Ferdinand 54:13 It would eat away at me.

Steven Bartlett 54:14 Why?

Rio Ferdinand 54:15 'Cause I just... Pride, ego. We all got egos, you wanna be the best. And I was never ashamed of myself to be, to feel like that or say that, that, that... I didn't say it at the time 'cause it, etiquette, it's not the thing to do. In American sports they do it, they s- they talk like that, which I wish we was more. 'Cause n- naturally I'm that type of person, I would say it. I think I'm the best sen- so I don't care. Like I would say now, I thought I was the best center back. But I was always... I just wanted to be the best. Whether I was or not is for other people to decide, but I was, that was my, always my intention.

Steven Bartlett 54:48 You and Vidic, partnership.

Rio Ferdinand 54:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:50 Lot of my friends at the moment, that's the way I've been... I'm a big fan of Harry Maguire and, uh, what, what he does. Mainly because, uh, uh, a- from what I hear he's one of the only leaders in the back line.

Rio Ferdinand 54:59 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:59 Like, you know, always shouting. What was it that made you and Vidic so successful as a partnership? 'Cause my m- my friends there do anything to have you guys back.

Rio Ferdinand 55:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 55:08 What was it about you two... 'Cause you're, you're known as, in my opinion, the best center back partnership we've ever had.

Rio Ferdinand 55:14 That's why I'm here, 'cause I knew you'd say that. I appreciate that, man. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:18 (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 55:18 So... No, um, I don't know man. It's, it, w-He had attributes that just complemented mine and vice versa.

Steven Bartlett 55:29 What, what, what, tell me about this.

Rio Ferdinand 55:30 Right, he was, uh, he, he wanted to go and attack every ball.

Steven Bartlett 55:32 Okay.

Rio Ferdinand 55:33 When the ball got kicked in the skies, he just saw one thing and that was the ball.

Steven Bartlett 55:37 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 55:38 And he was better at that than me.

Steven Bartlett 55:40 Okay.

Rio Ferdinand 55:41 But I read stuff and would clean up around all of that, and was more of a, I don't know, I read the game probably a little bit different to him, and-

Steven Bartlett 55:49 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 55:50 ... but at the same time, I could, I was capable of going up and winning the ball, and then he'd do that with me. Whether he was as good as me at cleaning up or not was for other people to decide. But like, I wa- uh, I don't know, it was just, we just complimented each other. And, and what it was, there was a pride about our defending, us two. So you see a lot of people, it's like me.

Steven Bartlett 56:08 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 56:09 "I'm the best. I want to be the best." Which is true, but m- the overriding fact of me wanting to be the best is that we don't concede and we're a partnership. "I'm gonna be, I've got your back." And that's what he would just say before a game. "Vida, you go up, I'm behind you, don't worry. When I go up, you're behind me, yeah?" That's all it was all the time. "You challenge, I'm behind you. Don't worry, just go for the ball, go for the man, take the man and the ball. I'm here if it goes wrong." And it's that having that sense of security for each other.

Steven Bartlett 56:34 There was a, a chant, a Vidic chant about him being a bit of a murderer.

Rio Ferdinand 56:38 Yeah, yeah. Crazy.

Steven Bartlett 56:39 How did he, how did he feel about that and like (laughs) -

Rio Ferdinand 56:41 Yeah, he's, he's quite an unassuming guy.

Steven Bartlett 56:43 Right.

Rio Ferdinand 56:43 He's really like, he's not really taken up by anything.

Steven Bartlett 56:46 Right.

Rio Ferdinand 56:46 "Did they say that about me? Oh, cool. It's good. Not bad."

Steven Bartlett 56:49 Not

Steven Bartlett 56:50 bad. (laughs)

Rio Ferdinand 56:50 And then carries on with life. Like he's really just chilled, man. He's so different to what he's like-

Steven Bartlett 56:55 Really?

Rio Ferdinand 56:55 ... on the pitch. Just a chill guy. He's an intense guy to be fair. Intense. And some players may have found him at times quite moody at times and just really like in with what he's doing because he's so intense, and he would really like to think about a lot of stuff and probably overthink certain situations. But I got on really well with him. He's one of my, my closest guys at Man United when I was there.

Steven Bartlett 57:20 You still talk to him now?

Rio Ferdinand 57:21 Yeah, I talk to him now on the texts and stuff. He's living in Milan at the moment.

Steven Bartlett 57:23 Oh, really?

Rio Ferdinand 57:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:25 One of the things that, um, has happened since your playing days is there's been a, a huge rise in the conversation around mental health.

Rio Ferdinand 57:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:31 Wasn't a conversation back then, really.

Rio Ferdinand 57:33 No.

Steven Bartlett 57:33 Um, even, even for me growing up that d- didn't know what it meant. I'll be completely honest, I thought mental health was, um, someone goes crazy.

Rio Ferdinand 57:41 Psychiatrist.

Steven Bartlett 57:42 Yeah, yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 57:42 You have to go and see them.

Steven Bartlett 57:42 Just in a straight jacket or something. That's what I, we always thought it was. That's all, the depiction of someone that's lost their mind. And, um, we've come to learn about it in a much different way now. We view it as a sort of intrinsic part of health, but everyone has mental health and it, it can sit on some kind of spectrum, right? Based on what happens. Um, I, I was wondering back then, like, the players in that dressing room, they had mental health then, they had mental health issues and stuff then, but I'm guessing it was never addressed. It was never talked about or-

Rio Ferdinand 58:11 No. I, I had done a documentary on BBC about that grief and bereavement and stuff. And obviously mental health is a huge part of that. And I got to understand mental health through that journey of making a documentary and understanding that when I played, again, mental health was not a thing at all, and it was never considered, there was no compassion. And if you acknowledged your mental health and started to talk about it as, "I have problems or an issue," you was then seen as a weak link. Whether it was spoke about or not, it was there. That would be the case. That would be the, how you would see that whole situation. And so no one then talks about it c- through fear of being called the weak link.

Steven Bartlett 58:53 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 58:54 Um, and I look back now and think, yeah, definitely if, if we would've been more open or if we would had today's thought process about mental health, we'd have got more out of certain players, definitely.

Steven Bartlett 59:08 Really?

Rio Ferdinand 59:08 Um, yeah, because Louis Saha for instance, what a player.

Steven Bartlett 59:13 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 59:14 Unbelievable footballer. Had injuries, but a- along with the injuries, that brought a mental health problem for him. And like, a bit depressed and down and whatnot, because he felt he was letting everyone down. That's what you feel when you're, you're injured, you feel you're letting your teammates down. And it's hard to deal with sometimes, especially if you just keep getting little injuries and you come back, you go again, you come back and people start, "Oh, he's always injured. Mentally he's not strong, is he? Don't fancy it." And you as a player, you know them conversations are going on. So you start thinking about that and when people see you, you think he's al- he doubts me anyway.

Steven Bartlett 59:47 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 59:48 And so that mental warfare that goes on, it could be sorted out through conversation.

Steven Bartlett 59:53 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 59:53 Ack- acknowledging certain things. But you're taught in a macho dressing room that talking is seen as a weakness back then. I think there's big changes now. Like you say, the narrative now is very different. So you'd like to think it's changing and clubs are more aware of that.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:10 I, um, I remember watching that documentary. I remember... I think I remember where I was when I watched it, because it really, really hit me.

Rio Ferdinand 1:00:17 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:17 And like, there's, I don't watch a lot of TV, but also, I'm, uh, it's quite hard for it to make something impact me. But because you were so vulnerable, as someone that I, you know, grew up watching as a kid and you were able to, to be emotional, it, it, yeah, it really, it hits, hits you in a completely different way.

Rio Ferdinand 1:00:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:34 Tell me about your thought process, why you wanted to do that, 'cause I'm betting it wasn't easy, right?

Rio Ferdinand 1:00:38 No, it was, it was, it was c- crazy. It was hard, man. But it was, it was mainly for my kids, if I'm honest, and for everyone else, because I wanted my... Obviously my kids lost, they lost their, their mom. So again, it's like, goes back to that same point, you can't just keep telling them. Sometimes just it'd be nice to have something you can just show them and that speaks for itself and is visual as well. And so they get a clear idea of where we're all at, where we was at, and how we've got to this point of hopefully a little bit of healing. And on that journey, we realized actually we're gonna help a lot of people here. So many more than just selfishly our own family. So it became like a real...... real, um, a positive journey for us in that sense of fu- of working out what it means to talk, to communicate your feelings. How much benefit that is to you as an individual, but also other people. Um, w- uh, working on relationships and how it can change your relationship when you are talking. And, and so ag- again, my, m- it was a difficult journey, because you've got to open up. Like you say, show that vulnerable side to you. And that, and, and again, I- it c- that's probably again what the, how we started the conversation. I wasn't scared to do that. It was a difficult situation, but I weren't scared of doing that, because I knew at the end of the day, my kids are going to benefit from this.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:05 Mm.

Rio Ferdinand 1:02:05 And whatever that, however this journey goes, I'm willing to, to be a part of it for that, for that one reason. And then when it was, when it, when it was, um, finished and we, uh, w- won a BAFTA in the end with it. And-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:19 Wow.

Rio Ferdinand 1:02:19 ... the great part of it is, is that you walk down the street or you go down the aisle in Sainsbury's or wherever, Tesco's, wherever it is, and an old aged lady or a man come up to you, you know what, s- with a tear in the eye or something like that, and their throat's all croaky and, "I watched your program. F- I, I never spoken before really. You, you, you helped me." That stuff, that's the, the reward that you get from something like that, that I didn't anticipate.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:44 Mm. And you, uh, one of the things you, you said when I was, you know, hearing you talk about mental health and really the, I guess, the crux of the documentary is that the healing comes from opening up and communicating.

Rio Ferdinand 1:02:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:57 Um, and in fact, you might never get over what happened and you don't necessarily need to, but it's like when you take it out from the, the closet in the back, you know, back part of your mind, because you were talking about compartmentalizing it-

Rio Ferdinand 1:03:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:09 ... a lot.

Rio Ferdinand 1:03:10 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:10 And that was how you were, you were handling it at first. And you know, I think a lot of the data shows that when you try and compartmentalize grief or trauma-

Rio Ferdinand 1:03:16 It never heals. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:19 ... but, but it, but it comes at you in other ways, right? 'Cause people start thinking and they start-

Rio Ferdinand 1:03:20 Yeah, and it, it jumps out. Yeah, and you get bad habits. You s- you fall into holes that you never knew were e- ever possible to go down. And then to get back out of them is, it becomes like almost an impossible journey. So it was, it was... And that's how I probably would've been with a lot of stuff in my life before you just compartmentalize it. You put it over there, you don't think about it, but you've never dealt with it. You've never s- got that situation out and unpacked it-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:46 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 1:03:46 ... and then used it to bring some sort of positivity to your life.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:51 People don't want to open it though.

Rio Ferdinand 1:03:52 No, 'cause it's scary.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:53 Yeah.

Rio Ferdinand 1:03:54 Vulnerable.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:54 And it, today, I'd rather just get through today than unpack that stuff-

Rio Ferdinand 1:03:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:59 ... and feel it.

Rio Ferdinand 1:04:00 Have to go through that stuff. Have to go through them feelings, them emotions. Have to have that hurt a little bit again. But I, I've, we said it to the kids all the time, like, like sometimes crying is such a, a relief sometimes, and the weight off, that goes off your shoulders sometimes when you, you do l- release that emotion is like, it's

Rio Ferdinand 1:04:20 crazy. You can't really put it into words what it feels like at times, that you've had that, them moments where you felt really down or you're missing someone, and then you have a little bit of emotional time on your own or with friends or with family or whatever it is. And then you, there's a smile immediately comes sometimes out of the back of it-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:38 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 1:04:38 ... 'cause you feel actually, "Whew, I actually feel better now." And you get, you move on, you carry on with your day. But it is, it's a, it's a, that type of situation that we've kind of been through, it, it's never gone.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:49 Mm-hmm.

Rio Ferdinand 1:04:50 But you learn how to deal with things that bit better all the time.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:54 What are some of the, the, the sort of techniques you use to try when you do feel down or you feel like, you know, there's something bugging, playing on your mind and stuff and you might be getting a bit anxious about something? Is there anything that you've learned from your experiences that helps you, um, in those moments? Like outside of talking, what strategies or is there... One of the things that I was, um, I've started doing, this is, this might sound really strange-

Rio Ferdinand 1:05:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:15 ... is when I... So what will happen with me is, something will be playing on my mind and I try and tell myself, "Oh, you can deal with that. You're fine. Whatever." And then three hours later in the shower and you're still thinking about it. And I know that it's gonna harm me if I don't, like address it. So I will literally, this sounds like fucking bonkers, first time I've ever said this. I'll literally say it out loud and have this like weird conversation with myself where I say, "Steve, like, you're feeling..." I always go literally, "You're feeling like this because of this