Romesh Ranganathan: There's A Dark Voice In My Head That I've Learnt To Control | E220

Romesh Ranganathan 0:00 Please welcome Romesh Ranganathan. (upbeat music)

Steven Bartlett 0:02 He's one of the most popular stand-ups around.

Romesh Ranganathan 0:05 I'm hosting this bitch. (upbeat music) I think that all comedians are wired slightly differently, and something happened to them that has made them an outsider in some way.

Steven Bartlett 0:14 What is that for you?

Romesh Ranganathan 0:15 We lived in a nice house. We had a nice car. All the stereotypical things that you mark success with. Then over the period of six months, it was a complete 180.

Steven Bartlett 0:24 What was the catalyst for that 180?

Romesh Ranganathan 0:26 Well- Shut up, mate. (energetic music) I'm addicted to doing stand-up, and it makes me better at everything. But I've got this inner voice that is horrific. It will say, "You're not a very good dad. You're not a very good husband." I'd done one of about six panel shows, and I was in a really bad place. And I turned up to each one of them with the steadfast belief that I was shit at this.

Steven Bartlett 0:46 What happens when it does go horrifically on the stage?

Romesh Ranganathan 0:48 It's horrible. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 0:50 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 0:50 Then silence. That never gets easier, man. But you learn more from those gigs. I just need to do the best I possibly can at this gig. I'm not in control of anything that happens after that. Don't think about this goal down the line that you're trying to get to. Do this thing brilliantly. If you love what you do and you do that, you are in a good camp.

Steven Bartlett 1:07 This is such a, a right turn, but-

Romesh Ranganathan 1:10 Oh, what an absolute stitch-up.

Steven Bartlett 1:12 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 1:13 Are you joking?

Steven Bartlett 1:15 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 1:16 We were having such a nice time.

Steven Bartlett 1:19 (laughs) Hello, everybody. Thank you for tuning in to watch this episode. Honestly, an incredible episode, but I have to say thank you before we begin because we've hit a million subscribers on this channel now, and I... it's almost unthinkable. It's, I can't... you know, I'm speaking for our entire team here when I say it's genuinely, genuinely unthinkable. Biggest privilege of my life to get to do this. Means the world that you guys tune in every, every week, uh, to listen to these episodes. So I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you to all of our subscribers. Roughly 65% of you that watch this channel now subscribe to the channel, which is amazing. If you haven't yet subscribed, could you please do me a little bit of a favor? Um, I can't tell you how much it helps this channel and how much it's helped us to pull in amazing, amazing guests and to expand everything within our operations, and how it's also gonna help us enable the, the year that's to come and all the plans we have, some huge plans, which I'm gonna be bringing to you very shortly. But if you can just do me the one favor and hit that subscribe button, it will be tremendously appreciated by myself and all of our team here. Really, really hope you enjoy this episode. Thank you for being here. Thank you for helping us reach this huge milestone of a million subscribers. Let's get on with it. (upbeat music) I'm so fascinated by comedians because I find it to be an art form that is both genius and terrifying.

Romesh Ranganathan 2:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 2:36 Um, so for someone to want to pursue that career, I'm always intrigued by, like, why? So can you give me the context that you think, from your earliest years, might have influenced you taking that path? If we go before you were even 10.

Romesh Ranganathan 2:51 (inhales deeply) Well, I did stand-up comedy when I was eight, you know, for the first time, where, like... I mean, the truth is, I fell into stand-up by accident. But when I was a kid, I... we used to go to this... my mum and dad used to take us to this video store and they'd go, "You can choose something each," and we'd all watch it together or whatever. And my mum always used to, always used to pick, like, pink... she loved, like, Inspector Clouseau and, like, Peter Sellers and all that. So she'd choose all that stuff. And then I discovered Eddie Murphy. I remember, like, getting out, uh, Beverly Hills Cop, and I watched Beverly Hills Cop and I was just like, "This guy is, like, so incredible." And then I started watching everything, Golden Child, Trading Places, all of that. As a kid, I was too young to be watching that stuff, but my mum and dad had no idea about age ratings, so they were fine with it.

Steven Bartlett 3:38 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 3:38 And then I discovered Roar, which was, like, his second special that came out, I think. And I remember watching that, and I'd watched... I'd had watched stand-up before on TV, like British stand-up. I'd watched a lot of it as a kid, and loved it. There's something about watching a guy, and he just had a microphone, and he walks out in that leather suit. And not that I'd ever worn a leather suit or ever will, but, like, he walks out like it's a rock gig. Do you... I mean, like, the whole crowd, like, this massive crowd, they go nuts, and they watch a show of somebody just talking. I just found it unbelie-... like, the low-finess of it, the sort of thing of, "I'm gonna say things I think, or my take on stuff, and that's the show. There is no more than this." Like, do, do you know what I mean? There's no effects. It is just literally, "I am going to just stream of conscious..." The illusion is it's stream of consciousness. "I'm just gonna, like, talk, and you're gonna... and that's the show." I just found it incredible. And so then we went... my family took me to Pontins Holiday Camp, me and my brother, for, uh, like, a week, and they had a talent competition. And all I used to do then was read joke books. Like, everything I read was, like, 3,001 Jokes. Like, joke books for kids. Like, I just... all... that was all I would read all the time, just joke books.

Steven Bartlett 4:57 B- because of that Eddie Murphy?

Romesh Ranganathan 4:59 I think so. I mean, I was just really into comedy. I just loved it. I loved the idea of making people laugh. I loved the idea of doing comedy. I was just so obsessed with it. And so then I entered the talent competition as a stand-up. It was horrendous, but I won. I'd... you know, I won. I beat this ki-... this kid playing a kazoo, and there was another kid doing a dance thing. Smashed it, absolutely smashed it. But, like, even then, I really loved sta-... or, like, I s-... loved stand-up. But the idea that I would do that for a career, as somebody from, like, an Asian background or whatever, you know, like, my parents were very much like, "You're gonna f-... you know, we've come over to this country for you to, to follow a path and be successful." The idea of doing stand-up as a career was not... it just wasn't ever in the...

Steven Bartlett 5:44 That stereotype of, um, immigrant Asian parents trying to make you a doctor or a lawyer-

Romesh Ranganathan 5:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:49 ... was that... did you witness that first-hand from your parents? As in, did they have that conversation with you at any point, or was it just kind of there in the background as an expectation?

Romesh Ranganathan 5:57 They d- they didn't explicitly say, "You're gonna be a d-" I mean, my dad was pretty laid-back, to be honest with you. My mum was a bit more...... was a bit more, kind of, dead set on what we were gonna do. But, you know, there was, there was... My mum and dad, my mum and dad left Sri Lanka for my dad to finish his studies. You know, it was an economic reason, but also there was trouble going on in Sri Lanka, you know. Like, my family are originally Tamil. There was lots of trouble going on with the Sinhalese and the Indian government, and there's, like, a civil war going on and that was affecting a lot of my family members as well. So there's, like, a lot of push and pull involved in them coming over here. But they never sat me down and had a talk, but every single time I made a decision or talked about what A levels I was gonna do, or anything like that, I was conscious of the fact that they were really worried about what I was gonna do. They, you know, for example, not going to university was not an option for me, do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 6:53 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 6:53 Really. I mean, unless I really decided to rebel. But they just assumed that I was gonna educate myself to whatever level, and then go off and follow this path of being a successful whatever. Um, so yeah. That's kind of, it was kind of... I felt it, do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 7:09 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 7:09 But they, they never had an explicit chat, but I did feel it.

Steven Bartlett 7:12 When I was reading through your story and going through the notes on your autobiography, it kind of... I, I, I really could relate to,

Steven Bartlett 7:19 um, your childhood in many ways. Because it seemed like your childhood had very distinct, um, opposing chapters-

Romesh Ranganathan 7:26 Right.

Steven Bartlett 7:26 ... one might say. And from, came, I came to the country when I was a kid, from Botswana, and the first chapter was great.

Romesh Ranganathan 7:33 Right. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:34 But that's the chapter I honestly can't remember-

Romesh Ranganathan 7:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:36 ... because I was below the age of ten. My siblings can remember it with great, um, great detail, but I can't remember that chapter. I'm told about it, I'm told about the, the presence, and the-

Romesh Ranganathan 7:45 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:45 ... everything kind of being normal. And then the second chapter, which I can remember vividly because I was slightly older, is when, kind of, chaos ensued.

Romesh Ranganathan 7:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:53 And everything seemed to fall apart. What was that first chapter for you like?

Romesh Ranganathan 7:58 Like, uh, to be honest with you, it's very similar to what you're talking about. You know, I remember, I remember being very comfortable and I remember my dad's... You know, all the stereotypical kind of things that you, that you mark success with. My dad wore a suit to work. We had a nice car we never really wanted for anything. We lived in a nice house. The people at my fa- like, my family were, like, had a big social circle. There were... You know, all of those, like, external signifiers, that was all happening. So, like, my kind of recollection, my re- to be honest with you, my recollection was of being spoiled, to be honest with you. Like, I had just loads of stuff. Do you know what I mean? Like, my mum and dad, my mum and dad bought us loads of stuff, but they s- we'd go out to eat a lot. You know, my dad was doing well, he was doing really well, do you know what I mean? And so, yeah. Similar to you, I don't have vivid memories of it, but I do have a general memory of, like, you know, if I asked for a thing for Christmas, it was pretty s- it was pretty likely I was gonna get it, do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 9:01 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 9:01 For the first eight years or so.

Steven Bartlett 9:03 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 9:04 So it was really super comfortable, do you know what I mean? And then it literally was, I would say over the period of six months, like, everything got completely turned upside down. It was like, it was just a complete 180.

Steven Bartlett 9:18 What was the catalyst for that 180?

Romesh Ranganathan 9:22 M- l- sort of unbeknownst to me, my dad was kind of, was not doing great at work. He was starting trying to do other, he was sort of messing around. He was, wha- what do I mean by messing around? Like, he was just a bit of a loose cannon, do you know what I mean? I think it had got, got to his head a little bit. He drank a lot, he was a bit of a womanizer, um, and that was starting to get noticed at his work. And then he started having ideas of, like, going off and doing other things. He ended up getting, I think he got fired from his job, and then he started trying to do these kind of import/export deals, which at the time we thought, "Oh, that's my dad's new path." But as it turns out, were, was illegal. But, like, he... Basically, we, we ended up getting ou- the, the first thing I had was that, uh, my mum said, "We're gonna have to move out of this house. This house is being repossessed." Right? So my mum and dad couldn't keep up their mortgage repayments. And then we ended up moving to this house on this council estate that my dad had got off a friend, or was renting off a friend. We were there for a little bit, and then while we were at that house, my mum found out that my dad had been sort of sleeping, regularly sleeping, and had started a relationship with this other woman. And was intending on leaving us in the f- like, leaving us to go and start a life with this other woman. And so that threw my mum's, kinda, world upside down. And then basically, the, the, the sort of trigger for everything going really kind of mad was we hadn't seen my dad for a couple of days, and my mum said, "I'm gonna..." (laughs) It was a mad... I, I can't remember how, how old I was. Maybe, like, 11 or 12 or something. My mum said, "I'm gonna take you to this woman's house and I need you to go to the door and ask where your dad is. Because I've not seen him for two days and I've not heard from him." So she took me round to this house, we went to the door, and I said, "Where's my dad?" And she said, "Your dad was arrested two days ago." And it turned out that they'd been in the middle of doing some sort of deal or something, and they were operat- they were the target of some sort of police investigation in Lester. The police stormed in, or stormed in and arrested them, and my dad was being held and ended up going to prison for... He was sentenced to two years. So, so then everything kind of went... It sort of went to chaos. Like, my dad was in prison, we ended up being housed in a bed and breakfast, uh, by the council 'cause they didn't have enough housing. So my mum, my brother, and I were staying in, uh, in a room in this bed and breakfast in Horley. And, um, my mum, like, had, she'd not been working but she got herself a job as a cleaner, and then we were going to school from there. Do you know what I mean? Like, and...Yeah, it was just like... It just sort of like, everything completely flipped, man. And so it was kind of... Yeah, it was just a complete 180, do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 12:20 At the start of that 180, your dad was an accountant, right?

Romesh Ranganathan 12:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:24 And then he'd lost his job.

Romesh Ranganathan 12:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:27 Cheated on your mum.

Romesh Ranganathan 12:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:29 Gone into sort of financial disarray, ended up in prison.

Romesh Ranganathan 12:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:33 In the p- p- in the process of, what, six months or something? 12 months?

Romesh Ranganathan 12:36 Well, that, the sort of the house got repossessed. Uh, we found out about... I, I think that sort of period from start to finish, maybe 12 to 18 months, I think.

Steven Bartlett 12:45 And at that point, you were in... At the start of that, you were in private school, right?

Romesh Ranganathan 12:48 Yeah. Yeah, so I'd got a scholarship, so, um, I'd g- I'd, I'd done this... I, I, I was, I was at school and then what I didn't realize is that my mum and dad were struggling to pay. My dad had lost his job and was trying to make his way in other ways and was struggling to pay for the fees. And so the first I realized about it was, like, accountants from the school were turning up to my lessons with, like, an invoice going-

Steven Bartlett 13:13 For you?

Romesh Ranganathan 13:14 Yeah, to p- to pass onto my parents because my, my mum and dad were in such arrears. And then eventually I got... One day I came home from school and Dad said to me, "You can't... You're not going back tomorrow." Like, "We've gotta take you off." It's like midway through, through term. He said, "You can't go back," because he was just getting freaked. 'Cause he'd, like, he was in such arrears that he was worried about what would happen even if I turned up. That, you know, just... Not that they were gonna do anything to me, but I think it got to the point where he just had to take me out. He wa- he couldn't see a way of sp- of paying any- the money anymore. So then, like, two days later I was, like, enrolled at the local school.

Steven Bartlett 13:46 Did you say bye to anybody at school?

Romesh Ranganathan 13:48 No. No. I mean, I got... Uh, uh, there was a mate of mine that I'm still in touch with now-

Steven Bartlett 13:53 Hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 13:54 ... um, who I kind of let know what was going on or whatever. But, um, nobody else, no. I just s- like one day I was there, one day I wasn't.

Steven Bartlett 14:01 When I look back on my own life, I, it's taken me maybe, like, 30 years to realize, like, the underlying shame. And

Steven Bartlett 14:08 so when I was looking through your sh- story, I was trying to understand if there was that same feeling of kind of underlying shame.

Romesh Ranganathan 14:15 Well, like, to give you an idea... So I, I went to... I started at this state school and I really enjoyed it. And I had a, I had a slightly opposite experience to you in terms of, like, when I was at, when I was at the, the, the private school, I was one of the only Asian kids there and I got loads of, like, I got a fair bit of racism. And then when I moved to state school, there were more kids of color at that school. I still got r- I mean, I got, I got into my fair share of scrapes with racists, but, like, that sc- d- it's a weird thing. I was really enjoying my time at school and it was actually a respite from being at home because, like, when I went home it was just like, "Everything's gone to shit. My mum's really sad." Like, and obviously I, I, I wanted to support her in that but school felt normal. I didn't tell anybody at school what was going on at home, right? So I'd go to school and they, for all they know, like, everything's, like, totally chill. But at th- And to g- to gi-... Like, so my dad went to prison on the 26th of March. My birthday's on the 27th of March, right? And I went to my mate's. My mate's organized, like, a little, like, get together, watching films and stuff. I didn't tell him any... I didn't tell him. I didn't tell them because I was just like, "I don't want anybody to know about this." So I turned up (laughs) to the bir- like, to this birthday get together the day after because I didn't wanna pollute my school experience with that. Do you know what I mean? So-

Steven Bartlett 15:36 Oh, I can relate. Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 15:37 So I just didn't tell anybody. And, like, I, I had really embarrassing experiences where, when we moved out the bed and breakfast, we were put in this flat and there's no phone in the flat. There was a pay phone downstairs. So, but I didn't want my friends to know that I, that it was a pay phone. So I had to, like, pr- make them promise me they were gonna call me exactly this time-

Steven Bartlett 15:57 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 15:57 ... and then stand by the pay phone so that nobody from any-

Steven Bartlett 16:00 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 16:00 ... one of the other flats was gonna answer it and then... Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 16:03 So stupid. (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 16:05 So stupid. But I s- I was just so, wanting to, nobody to know what was going on.

Steven Bartlett 16:11 There's a cost to that though, isn't there? Do you know what I mean? Like, that, that kind of living with the, the sense of embarrassment almost.

Romesh Ranganathan 16:19 Yeah. I, I g- I guess, like, there's, there's lots of little things that... There is a stress at trying to live a double life like that.

Steven Bartlett 16:27 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 16:27 You know? You know, things that would normally be okay, you suddenly panic over. So for example, there was a girl I liked and we were, like, we- we- we were living on this council estate. We'd been put in a house. We'd been put in this house but we couldn't afford carpet, so it was just, we just had wooden fl- like, just the wooden floors in there. And everything was fine, but just no carpet, so it looked v- it looked strange.

Steven Bartlett 16:48 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 16:48 And then we're walking around the estate and then this girl that I like said, "Oh, do you mind if I come in and use your toilet?" I mean...

Steven Bartlett 16:57 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 16:57 I nearly had a panic attack.

Steven Bartlett 16:59 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 16:59 I was like, "You can't." (laughs) You ab- I was, I was really thinking like, "What do I do here?" I can't say, "No, you can't use the toilet." Like, I started thinking, "What can I say? Well, Mum doesn't like girls using the toilet in my house."

Steven Bartlett 17:10 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 17:10 Like, "What? What can I possibly say?" In the end, I said, I think I said, "We're between carpets."

Steven Bartlett 17:15 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 17:20 You know how it works. You get the carpets taken out, you just wait for a couple of weeks for the floors to settle, then you get the new carpet.

Steven Bartlett 17:26 That's quick thinking. (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 17:26 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 17:26 That's actually really quick thinking.

Romesh Ranganathan 17:29 But yeah, all that kind of stuff is just, it's just so stress- it's so stressful, man.

Steven Bartlett 17:34 Well, you, you would, you described yourself as a lazy kid.

Romesh Ranganathan 17:37 Yeah, I really was, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:38 You're not now. You're not a lazy person now, so-

Romesh Ranganathan 17:41 I still do think I'm quite lazy. I, I...

Steven Bartlett 17:43 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 17:45 I just was like, all of my school reports said, "Romesh is wasting his ability. Romesh doesn't apply himself. Romesh doesn't..." Um, and that was true before everything. Uh, not to the same degree, but it was sort of true before everything kind of went topsy-turvy, but it was definitely true afterwards. You know, a lot of teachers say to me, "You're not applying yourself at all." Uh, but I sort of think for a while I went through a phase of just having given up, to be honest with you 'cause it's, it's sort of gone so...... to my mind, my world had been turned upside down so completely, I couldn't really see the point in it. I, I just sort of, I just wanted to have a nice time. Like I, I wanted to enjoy myself, and that didn't, that meant not working. It didn't, initially, it did not give me ... You know when you were talking about when you wrote down your list of targets?

Steven Bartlett 18:35 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 18:35 It sort of had the opposite effect on me. I just thought, "I don't give a shit anymore." I've seen my dad work really hard. You know, I didn't know the full details of what he'd done. You know, all of that sort of stuff came out in the wash. But like, at the time, I think, "I've watched a man work really hard," and then he ended up in prison, and he split up with my mum. I mean, they got back together eventually. It, it, like, it was terrible. And I actually went through a phase of thinking, I know that ... I went through a phase of thinking that we were just cursed. Because like, so many, so many things, so many bad things happened in quick succession. I actually went through a phase as a kid of thinking that happiness is something that will always elude me, or, like, I, I will never be comfortable. You know, this, I'm never ... This is just what we're supposed to be. You know, like, my parents are Hindu. They talk about, you know, they talk about God a lot in our house, and so suddenly you just go, "Maybe God just doesn't like us, man." (laughs) Do you know that, that I genuinely had that genuine belief-

Steven Bartlett 19:26 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 19:27 ... that, like, maybe this is just how it's supposed to be. So it kind of pushed me the other way. I stopped working. I started bunking off. I just wasn't, I just wasn't in the zone at all.

Steven Bartlett 19:37 What was your, um, opinion of yourself during that time?

Romesh Ranganathan 19:42 Ah.

Romesh Ranganathan 19:46 Uh, that's a great question because, to be honest with you, what my opinion of myself is now is something I really struggle with. And, and like, I've never thought about the origins of that. But, um ... The, the truth is, I think, when I've come to reflect on it after that, and I remember thinking this at the time. I remember thinking, "I don't know what I would've ended up like if we'd have stayed comfortable." You know, I don't know what person I would've been if I'd have stayed comfortable. And I would, I'm telling you now, if that hadn't have happened to us, I wouldn't be a comedian now. I wouldn't be the person I am now. Like, there's so many things that defined who I am. I was defined, so much of me has been defined by that period. And, but what I would say is, my, uh, opinion of, my opinion of myself was and continues to be something I really struggle with in terms of it being absolutely like, like rock bottom. You know, l- you know, like, you just, I just have, uh, I have a prick living in my head that talks to me all the time. Do you know what I mean? And so, and that is something that to this day, as I'm sitting with you now, I have to contend with. Do you know what I mean? I've got, like, this inner voice that is horrific. Do you know what I mean? It's like a horrible, horrible person that I've got. Like, you know, this horrible voice in my head that just like, regardless of whatever external, um, evidence there is, or whatever, whatever else happens, I will always have this kind of, this inner belief, uh, that I'm sort of a bit shitty. Do you know what I mean? Like, or I, I'm not ... I can't do this, or I'm not good at this, or you're getting away with this, or whatever. Imposter syndrome I guess is a, is a oversimplified way of, of describing it. But yeah. It's something I've, I, I've sort of had to, uh, uh, not had to deal with. Something I've dealt with for as long as I can remember, really.

Steven Bartlett 21:48 I got really, uh, I got chills all over my body then, and I, I don't really know. Do you know why it is? Is because it really breaks my heart

Steven Bartlett 21:55 to hear that, that.

Romesh Ranganathan 21:56 Right. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:56 And it genuinely does, like, 'cause, uh, and also, I think people don't understand the privilege that they have if they don't have that in their head.

Romesh Ranganathan 22:03 Right, right, yeah. Yeah. I totally agr- I mean, it's t- it's such a difficult thing because, 'cause if you don't have that, you don't understand why somebody would have that. You, you, you go, "What are you talking about?"

Steven Bartlett 22:17 Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 22:18 Snap out of it. Do you know what I mean? Like-

Steven Bartlett 22:19 And, and you look at your life and go, "I was a successful comedian."

Romesh Ranganathan 22:21 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:22 What do you mean? Look at you.

Romesh Ranganathan 22:22 100%. You sort of go ... And it's not that I'm unhappy with my lot. It's not that I want anything to b- it's nothing external. I don't need anything external to change. I just have that, you just have that. You know, I've just always mentally had that. And yeah, like, what you just said, I totally relate to because sometimes I've not, you don't tell people because you just sort of go, they're gonna go, "What? What are you on about?" Like, "What, what, what are you talking about?" But people that get it, get it. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, I, I do think, you know, it's something that I've kind of got involved with as much as I possibly can, is to sort of e- encourage those, you know, those kind of mental health conversations and stuff. I think we've become much more open about it than we were in the past. But when I was at uni, I, I went to see a therapist that, like, they had like, these free therapy sessions for students. And I went along to one, and I did like, a whole course or whatever. I remember telling my mum about it, and she like, freaked out. You know, because she said, "What do you, what do you mean you're going to a therapist? Like, what, is there something wrong with your head?" You know, like she like, really like, 'cause to her mind, does that mean you're mad? Like, do, do you know what I mean? Like, she didn't have that same, it's like, her understanding of it now is completely, you know, she's completely, uh, you know, she's, her attitude towards it is very different. But yeah. It's just something you have to contend with. And, and like, at the moment as I'm talking to you now, I've got coping mechanisms, and I'm sort of on top of it. But I'm v- I'm always sort of this clos- you know, if I get, if I, it can be something really little, like I don't exercise for a bit, or I don't hydrate properly for a few days, or I don't s- I don't get enough sleep, I'm back. Do you know what I mean? Like, I go dark.

Steven Bartlett 24:02 Back, back to where?

Romesh Ranganathan 24:03 Just go dark in my head. You know, like you kind of, the voice comes, you know, pfft, the voice comes back. But you know what I mean? You sort, you start getting down on yourself, and you have to be on top of all of those things, like, (sighs) ...

Steven Bartlett 24:13 What does the voice say? What does the voice say?

Romesh Ranganathan 24:16 ... it will say, "You're not a very good dad. You're not a very good husband." If I come to do this podcast, it will go, "Why are you bothering to do this? You've got nothing interesting to say." Do you know what I mean? Like, you're gonna try and get away with this. At some point, somebody's gonna tap you on the shoulder and go, "We all know. If you leave quietly, we won't say anyth-" You know, that kind of thing. You know, I- I remember, like, doing a run of, like ... I was particularly busy. I had a run of about six panel shows, like different studio things over two weeks, and I was in a really bad place, and I turned up to each one of them with the steadfast belief that I was shit at this, (laughs) right? And I've got to try and get away with it as much as I pos- you know, like, I was just in a bad place. I turned up, and I'd be sitting there and, like, you know, to be a comedian, you gotta be loose and, like, chilled out and relaxed.

Steven Bartlett 24:59 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 25:00 And it's almost like being a ... You know, I've read a lot about it, about being in a flow state, you know, being in the pocket, whatever you want to call it. You can't be in the pocket if you've (laughs) got a voice in your head going, "You're crap at this." So it's like ... Yeah, it just, uh, you just go through periods of it, I suppose.

Steven Bartlett 25:14 The, um ... When you went to see that therapist in school, why did you go?

Romesh Ranganathan 25:19 (inhales deeply) So there was this very specific trigger. (clicks tongue) So what happened was, is, I had saved up, 'cause I've always been really into music, and I'd saved up to get this, like, hi-fi.

Steven Bartlett 25:29 Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 25:30 Um, like this really cool bit of stereo equipment. And I was too scared to take it to uni 'cause I just thought, "Somebody's gonna nick this or it's gonna get smashed or whatever," so I left it at home, in my bedroom at home. And my mum and dad had a lodger, and he was sort of ... He was somebody that'd come over from Sri Lanka that they were kind of helping out. And he'd been sleeping ... I'd been sharing a room. When I came back, I shared a room with him, and they'd moved that piece of stereo equipment, right, because e- he needed to put some stuff somewhere or whatever. My reaction to something quite nothing was like s- it w- it was like I really, like, was like ... felt like my mum and dad were trying to move me out or they didn't care about my stuff. Like, and, and then I'd, like, really got pissed off about it, and then, uh, later on that evening realized that that was a massive overreaction, and then recognized that I wasn't in a good head space. You know? Like, I just felt like for me to have reacted like that probably was a sign that I was ... 'Cause I felt like I was going through some shit as well, you know? Like, I, you know, you don't feel right in yourself, and then when I reacted like that, I thought, "I need to sp- I need to sort of speak to somebody probably, you know. I'm not in a good, I'm not in a good place." And so, like, I think, like, two days later, I looked into it and then started going.

Steven Bartlett 26:43 You know what's, um, really has, I think, changed my life is the amount of times I've had this exact conversation with someone who is n- n- maybe a comedian, maybe not, about the voice in their head.

Romesh Ranganathan 26:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:56 And until I started doing this podcast, I had absolutely no idea. I couldn't comprehend the thought that there's people that have a voice in their head that is somewhat against them at times.

Romesh Ranganathan 27:05 Right, right, right (laughs) . Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:06 I couldn't comprehend it.

Romesh Ranganathan 27:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:07 And so for me, like, it, this isn't the first time I've heard this. This is may- maybe not even the 10th time. It's really eye-opening for me. Have you ever ... and this is, I mean, this is almost an impossible task 'cause you're, like, trying to piece things together in hindsight, but have you ever developed a perspective or an opinion where that voice c- comes from or why you have it and someone else might not?

Romesh Ranganathan 27:28 Hmm. No. I don't. (clicks tongue) I don't know is, you know, like ... (sighs) Why have I got it and other people haven't? I, I don't know. It's something I've thought about, particularly when I'm talking to people that don't have it or don't understand why I've got it. Um, and I don't know. I- I- I- I don't know if it's like ... (clicks tongue) I mean, I'm being super, super pseudo psychologist here, but-

Steven Bartlett 27:54 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 27:55 I sort of think that ... You know when I said to you about, I sort of felt like everything was against us?

Steven Bartlett 27:59 Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 28:00 And you sort of go through this period of, like, during your formative years of a lot of things going badly or going negatively.

Steven Bartlett 28:05 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 28:06 You then start to see that as your default, and then if something goes right or if something's going well, then that is against type or that is against ... You know, you're supposed to have shit happen to you. You're like-

Steven Bartlett 28:17 Hm.

Romesh Ranganathan 28:17 You're ... Bad stuff's supposed to h- or you're supposed to have bad experiences, and so then maybe that's on ... I'm, and I'm just freestyling here, but maybe that kinda gets hardwired into you so that even if, like, you have positive things-

Steven Bartlett 28:30 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 28:32 ... you kind of, you- you- you- you kind of don't accept them. And I also think of, like, sometimes I've reflected on times when I was a kid, like, really young, and done things that I would consider to be selfish. I remember, like, this, like, I have a vivid memory of being horrible to my brother, and the voice goes to me, "That's you at your core." Like, when you're, when you're being nice, that is conditioning, but that is what ... You know, I've, I've had that thought where that, you fundamentally as that person, that h- that nasty person, but what you've done is, like, social conditioning has taught you that, you know, uh, y- you allow your brain to go down those, those thought pathways, you know?

Steven Bartlett 29:08 I sat with Gabor Maté. He's, um, he's maybe ... He's, like, considered to be, like, the leading, um, psychologist, therapist on ch- specifically childhood trauma, and his, uh, uh, he was handed off during the n- the Holocaust when his, because his mum was trying to save him so she gave him to someone else and-

Romesh Ranganathan 29:24 (inhales deeply)

Steven Bartlett 29:24 ... he talks to me about how we interpret ex- we are narcissists as young children.

Romesh Ranganathan 29:28 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:29 We think everything is about us.

Romesh Ranganathan 29:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:30 Our parents are screaming, "That's because of me."

Romesh Ranganathan 29:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:32 You know, and, and how children are these, like, gr- great, like, huge narcissists, so even though his mum was doing an act of love, he almost internalized it as an act of abandonment, which meant that he wasn't good enough, so he, he talks about-

Romesh Ranganathan 29:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:44 ... how he lived with this kind of sense of not being good enough. The other conversation I reflect on which, uh, k- comes to mind as you're talking is Steve Peters, who wrote The Chimp Paradox, and he talks about-

Romesh Ranganathan 29:53 I've read that, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:54 You've read it?

Romesh Ranganathan 29:54 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:54 It's a g- great book. Talks about two periods. He goes, under the age of, like, 10, you can develop goblins.

Romesh Ranganathan 30:00 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 30:00 And he refers to a goblin as something that we can never really shake because of the, the, the neural pathways in our brain are, are cha- are pretty much changed for good, and, and we can often not remember it because we don't even start to form memories until we're, like, three.

Romesh Ranganathan 30:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:13 Or whatever. And those are your goblins. And then he goes, after 10, it's really your gremlins, which are things we can overcome.

Romesh Ranganathan 30:18 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:18 So, it's, it's interesting that we can have these sort of goblins, but also not remember where they came from, and they can also be just, like, narcissistic, childlike interpretation of events.

Romesh Ranganathan 30:28 Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think, I th- I, I do sort of agree with that, and I think, like ...... one of the things I discovered is, like, in, in conflict and things like that, you know, I, I, there was this, uh, David Foster Wallace did this, like, commencement speech that I read, and it's about, like, this thing that we're all hardwired to believe that we are the center of the universe, right? So, like, when you're going to work and somebody cuts you off, or somebody takes ages in front of you at the supermarket, it's like, "Why is this happening to me?" And then as soon as you flip the switch and go, "This isn't happening to me. I'm like, this person's got their own thing, and this person's got their own thing," as soon as you do that, your ability to just chill out is miraculous, right? And, and I, I, I do think that that is part of it. Like, you know, the belief that bad things happen to me. What am I talking about?

Steven Bartlett 31:15 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 31:15 Do you know what I mean? What are you talking about? Do you think you're that important that, that, that they've got time for destiny to go, "Nah, bad sh-" What are you talking about, you absolute God-complex-having twat?

Steven Bartlett 31:25 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 31:25 You know? That's the truth of it. You see what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 31:28 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 31:28 It's just some stuff happened, man. It's not destiny, you're not on some route, there's, nobody's got anything against you, just like, what are you talking about? Who do you think you are? Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 31:38 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 31:38 So, it is that, it is that. You're kind of, like, trying to combat that.

Steven Bartlett 31:42 You said you learned coping mechanisms.

Romesh Ranganathan 31:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:45 What are those coping mechanisms?

Romesh Ranganathan 31:46 Um-

Steven Bartlett 31:48 That sounds like one of them, what you just described there, which sounded like perspective.

Romesh Ranganathan 31:51 Yeah. One of them is perspective. Another one is just, is completely, it's completely surrendering yourself to the moment that you're in. So, like, uh, if you complete... What I found is, is like, a lot of kind of your- so this inner voice or whatever, or a lot of your worries and stuff like that, are things that are not happening to you at that time. You know, it's like, "I'm worried this is gonna happen," or, "I'm worried I'm shit at this and this is gonna happen," and da-da-da-da-da-da. And one of the things I found is like, to just completely be of this moment and this moment alone, and, and sort of, yeah, just, just be present, you know. Like, so if I come here, I could come here going, um, "If this podcast doesn't go well, then people are gonna get in touch with my social media, and then, you know, uh," blah. You know, you can start getting yourself in a thing, "You're not good enough to do this podcast. He shouldn't have interviewed you. Have you seen the other guests he's got on this podcast? It's not- why has he done this?" Blah blah blah blah. Or, if you just go, "I'm just gonna come here and enjoy this podcast, and s-" you, you know, "And I'm just gonna be here in the m- in the chat with you," you're just a, your, the way you experience things completely changes. Do you know what I mean? You, you, you just, you just become, you just have a different experience of the same thing. You can experience two things completely differently. Like, and the truth is, all of these things you're catastrophizing are fine. You know, like if I go, if I'm g- if I'm crap on a panel show, I don't get booked for that panel show again, so what?

Steven Bartlett 33:19 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 33:19 Like who gives a shit, do you know what I mean? Like, that's fine. It's totally cool. And then the other thing is to just kind of actively be aware of when I'm getting like that. You know, like sometimes you can't necessarily stop it, but I go, "I've gone dark." Do you know what I mean? You, you, you sort of go, "This is happening, but this is- it's okay to feel like this. I don't need to block those thoughts. But they are irrational, and I just, I just know what's happening." Do you know what I mean? "I need to get my nutrition in order. I need to get down the gym, I need to get a good night's sleep, whatever I need to do to sort myself out, I need to do a bit of like, you know, Headspace or whatever it is," do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 34:00 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 34:01 "To try and get myself back on an even keel." Whereas before, before I had those kind of coping mechanisms, who knew when I was gonna come out of it, you know? I just would submit myself to it completely, and then it would be by chance that I would come out of it, you know?

Steven Bartlett 34:12 When you reflect on your, your journey with mental health, was there, has there, what period of your life was the most difficult?

Romesh Ranganathan 34:20 In terms of mental health?

Steven Bartlett 34:20 Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 34:23 Um, I would say my late, my late teens into my kind of early 20s was really challenging 'cause I remember react- I've got loads of memories of reacting really badly to, to things. Um, like irrationally, like over-the-top reactions, like... I remember, like, I didn't really do very well in my A levels 'cause I was just like pissing about, and then when the A level results came, I just thought, "This is the end. I can't carry on with my life." You know, I really, like, was like, "I can't..." You know, I was, I was, I was thinking about taking my own life, like regularly. You know, like, yeah, there's loads of times that, you know, there's loads of times during that period when I thought about it. I did think about it a lot. Um, and I'd, I'd fantasize about it, you know? I'd like think about how I was gonna do it, I'd think about how easy it would be after that. I'd think about the repercussions after I'm gone. You know, I'd think, like I'd spend time thinking about it, you know? So, um, and that was kind of the toughest times, and then as I kinda got older, um, yeah, it sort of got, I still had the same issues, but I started to kind of be able to, to deal with them a bit more effectively. And you know, like, I managed to shut off the vo- you know, there'd be, there'd be long times I don't have any voice at all. You know, like it's just gone, and then occasionally you sort of go dark again. But yeah, that was probably the most challenging time.

Steven Bartlett 35:53 You know there's a, there's a stereotype about comedians and them ha- you know, their perspective of themselves not b- not being happy or

Steven Bartlett 36:01 whatever. There's that, like, long-enduring stereotype, and I've sat here with Jimmy Carr, et cetera, and he's told me, he actually said to me, he said, "You should ask, you should ask comedians, not are they depressed, but like who in their family was depressed."

Romesh Ranganathan 36:11 (laughs) Right, right, right.

Steven Bartlett 36:12 Which I thought was an interesting one. What's your whole observation, as it relates to you, on that like stereotype that comedians are either depressed themselves or their family was or their mum was or their, they had someone in the home they were trying to cheer up?

Romesh Ranganathan 36:21 I don't, I don't, hmm. I don't know if I think that all comedians are depressed. I've said after a long description. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 36:29 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 36:32 It feels like I've supplied a lot of evidence to the contrary. But I, I don't think all comedians are depressed, but I do think that...I think that all comedians are wired slightly differently, certainly all the really good ones. Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 36:44 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 36:44 All the ones that, like, something's happened. They've had something happen to them that has changed the wiring, that has made them an outsider in some way. And it, and it, it might be depression, but it might be, you know, it might be a change in circumstances. It might be a bereavement. It might be whatever. It, it might be a class shift. It might be their parents. You know-

Steven Bartlett 37:06 Hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 37:06 ... there's something about comedians that just, they're just slightly diff- You know, their wiring is slightly different. I do genuinely believe that 'cause I sort of, whenever I talk to comedians who I really like, after a while of talking to them, you go...

Steven Bartlett 37:22 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 37:22 "I've spotted it."

Steven Bartlett 37:24 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 37:25 Do you know what I mean? (laughs) You go, "There you go. There it is." Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 37:28 Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 37:28 They've all got that. They've all got a little bit of, like, you know, I... Yeah, they've all got a little bit of faulty wiring, I think. Or, uh, I don't mean faulty. I mean, wired differently.

Steven Bartlett 37:36 Different.

Romesh Ranganathan 37:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:37 Yeah, yeah. What is that, in your words, for you? What is that different wiring that's made you, like, uh, uh, like, pulled, magnetized by the career of being a stand-up comic, or a comedian, a writer?

Romesh Ranganathan 37:51 I don't know. I think that, like, sort of, I, I think the speed in which, (sighs) the speed at which everything changed, uh, you know, the, the sort of my life experiences, as well as the fact that I was sort of drawn to comedy anyway. You know, all of my family, a lot... My dad was... My family's sort of all pretty comedically... You know, they're, they're, they're all... My com- My, my lan- The love language at my house is taking the piss out of each other. Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 38:17 Hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 38:17 Like, you know, my mum and dad, um, my brother and I just rinse each other all the time. That was, that was what I knew. That's what my kids are like. That's what we're like in my house, you know? And I think that that's kind of contributes to it. But I think that, y- you know, again, I'm being sort of... I'm speaking from a position of deep ignorance. But, like, I think having seen the normal trajectory for my dad, and the trajectory that they wanted for me, go so spectacularly wrong has allowed me to accept taking a different path. Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 38:52 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 38:52 Like, I, I, I think had that not happened, I probably would have gone, "I need to get, like, a regular job, like, and follow this trajectory that my parents want, and I need to follow the, the, the, the milestones of success that everybody kind of attributes."

Steven Bartlett 39:05 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 39:06 Whereas this thing allowed me to go, "Well, do you know what? I'm just gonna do the thing I really wanna do, and let's see what happens." Do you know what I mean? And initially that was, you know, before I was doing comedy, that was teaching. I didn't do teaching because I wanted to make m- Well, you don't do teaching 'cause you wanna make money. But I, I wasn't doing teaching because I wanted, like, respect from the community. I did it because I loved the idea of teaching children, and then I ended up moving into comedy. And I just sort of thought, "I actually kind of a- I kind of, uh, have attached less weight to financial remuneration, to, like, having a nice house, to all of that, and I just wanna do this."

Steven Bartlett 39:42 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 39:43 "I, I, I j- I, I just wanna be driven by wanting to do this thing." Do you know what I mean? Because if you chase the financial thing, it can still go horrifically wrong, so why am I doing that? Do you know what I mean? I might as well chase ... It... That could still go wrong, but at least I'm doing something I enjoy.

Steven Bartlett 39:57 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 39:58 Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 39:58 And that first y- You know, I was reading about your early sort of gigs in, like, pubs and stuff like that-

Romesh Ranganathan 40:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:03 ... with, like, eight people or whatever. That fir- that first time a gig went well-

Romesh Ranganathan 40:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:07 ... maybe it was a... Was it Butlins, your first, when you

Narrator 40:09 had that gig?

Romesh Ranganathan 40:09 That was my first when I was, like, eight. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:11 How did you feel up on stage, um, the minute you walked off stage when it went really well?

Romesh Ranganathan 40:17 Well, I can tell you a really specific gig, man, that, like, it was quite a bit int- So, I was, you know, you were doing all these pub gigs and I started to get to a point where I was starting to do well at these gigs, right?

Steven Bartlett 40:28 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 40:28 And I felt like, "Okay, I'm starting to get all right at this." You know, for that level, do you know what I mean? You certainly couldn't have put me on at the Apollo at that stage. But, like, I was like, I was starting to feel like I was starting to do well in these gigs. And what I hadn't done, what I'd never done, is I'd never turned a room. So, what I mean is, whenever... However the gig was going, I would go on and follow suit, right? So if it was a good gig, I'd probably have a good gig. If it was a, a tough gig, I'd still do all right, but I'd have a tough gig. The first time I absolutely buzzed my tits off is, it was a tough gig, I was on second, and, like, the host had struggled, the first act had struggled, and then they got me on. And I started and they were quiet, but by the end of the gig, it was like, I was r- like, having a great one. And that, to turn a r- Like, that was the first time I'd ever taken a room from being quiet to being a great gig, and I lost my mind. I mean, like, I was just like... The adrenaline was just insane, man. I came off just like... And you have to hide that, right? Because, you know, you don't wanna walk off just going, "Yeah, man."

Steven Bartlett 41:32 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 41:33 "Yes. Absolute smash time." So I had to, like, swallow that down and just go, "I've got to leave quickly so I can scream in the car." But I felt f- I felt in- Mate, that... I remember, like, as the gig was turning, I didn't wanna dip out of it, 'cause as soon as you go, "This is going well," you're out of the moment, right?

Steven Bartlett 41:49 Fucked, yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 41:49 So I had to, like, h- I had to just, like, just keep doing the gig, keep doing the gig. Like, had a great response, and I was like, "Oh my God, that felt amazing." It was unbelievable, man. Amazing.

Steven Bartlett 42:01 And has that kind of been your relationship with stage where that's the real f- Like, that's the, that's the pinnacle in terms of, like, feelings, and emotions, and like, I guess, like, self, I don't know, affirmant?

Romesh Ranganathan 42:17 Um, I don't know. I mean, like, I d- I definitely enjoy the buzz of doing live stand-up more than anything else I do.

Steven Bartlett 42:23 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 42:23 And, like, nothing else really matches up to it. I really do enjoy all the other stuff I do, but nothing can really compete with stand-up. I think it's partly because of the possibility that you could really die on your ass. Like, that is exciting, but it could go horrifically wrong.

Steven Bartlett 42:36 But, but th- this is something that I was gonna ask is, as someone who's said that there's that voice in your head and things can trigger it, what happens when it does go horrifically wrong on stage?

Romesh Ranganathan 42:44 It just depends, 'cause like-The truth is, your mindset changes, right? 'Cause like when I started doing stand-up, if I did badly, it's probably 'cause I was shit, right? Whereas like now, I- I- I feel like I'm all right at stand-up. And now, the gigs that go badly, you need those gigs. You know, like, it's, it's like going to the gym. You know, if I'm trying to write a new tour, I've gotta write new material. So I go on with 10 minutes of new material and I try it out. If I, if it goes for nothing, I'm disappointed because none of this stuff's worked, but it doesn't, it doesn't make me think I'm a shit comedian now.

Steven Bartlett 43:23 Okay.

Romesh Ranganathan 43:23 I- I'm disappointed these people are gonna leave thinking, "Romesh was crap tonight."

Steven Bartlett 43:27 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 43:27 I can't do anything about that. But you're sort of going, "This is part of the process." You know, you're like, "I'm going to the gym. I've gotta like..." You learn more from those gigs. Do you know what I mean? And so it's still ... Don't get me wrong. It's still horr- it's horrible. Saying something and then looking out (laughs) at that silence, that never gets, that never gets easier, man. But you sort of go, "This is what you've gotta do." It's like when you're ... You, you gotta take risks in the small rooms so that when you do the big rooms, it's better. You know, like, you know, you- you wanna do stuff that's on the ed- not necessarily on the edge, but you wanna do stuff where you might do an act out that you wouldn't normally do, or you might talk about something you've never talked about before. And the risk is you might tuck into a big plate of shit. But when you're in the big room, when you're doing your tour, you'll go, "I wish I'd taken more risks back then." Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 44:17 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 44:17 So you can't ... It's kind of a different, it's kind of a different process. Having said that, I've done a corporate gig where I've died on my ass and I felt absolutely horrific. You know, like, you, you ... It's ... Oh God.

Steven Bartlett 44:26 Yeah. (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 44:27 It's just so awful, man.

Steven Bartlett 44:29 There's something really surprising about someone who attests to having that, like, tricky internal monologue with themselves-

Romesh Ranganathan 44:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:37 ... that would then put themself in such a high-risk (laughs) situation.

Romesh Ranganathan 44:40 I know, I know, I know, I know.

Steven Bartlett 44:41 It's like you'd expect, you would think someone would just stay at home and just avoid any chance of reinforcing that negative voice, but-

Romesh Ranganathan 44:46 Of waking that prick up.

Steven Bartlett 44:47 Yeah. (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 44:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:48 It's, it's amazing though.

Romesh Ranganathan 44:50 The honest truth is, I would have that voice regardless of what I did, so I might as well do something I really love. Do you know what I mean? And I just absolutely, like I'm addicted to doing stand-up. I'm addicted to it. Even if I don't have a tour to prepare for, I'll go and do a gig, you know. I can't not gig. And it makes me better at everything. So if I'm doing a travel show, I'm funnier on the travel show if I'm regularly gigging. If I'm not gigging, I'll be worse on that panel, on that travel show, I'll be worse on a panel show, I'll be worse talking to you now. Like, you know, you're just-

Steven Bartlett 45:17 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 45:18 You're just exercising that muscle. Like, being on stage, I just feel I'm addicted to it. (paper crinkles)

Steven Bartlett 45:23 Quick word from one of our sponsors. I've got a tip for all of you that will make your virtual meeting experiences, I think, 10 times better.

Steven Bartlett 45:30 As some of you may know by now, BlueJeans by Verizon offers seamless, high-quality video conferencing. But the reason why I use BlueJeans versus other video conferencing tools is because of immersion. Their tools make you feel more connected to the employees or customers you're trying to engage with. And now, they're launching one of their biggest feature enhancements to impact virtual events so far called BlueJeans Studio. I actually used it the other day. I did an, a virtual event using the studio, which I think about 700 of you came to. TV-level production quality, all done by one person with very little technical experience on a laptop. So if you've got an event coming up and you're thinking about doing it virtually, check out BlueJeans Studio now. Let me know what you think, 'cause I genuinely believe ... I know this is an advert and I'm supposed to say this, but I genuinely believe it's the best tool I've seen for doing really immersive, simple but high-quality production virtual events. (paper crinkles) It is that time of year again where my life becomes incredibly reliant on Huel. I'm busier than ever. I'm trying to be nutritionally complete in all that I do. I'm trying to make sure I get all of the vitamins and minerals that I need in my diet. And Huel has been for the last three and a half years the primary reason as it relates to my diet that I've been able to be nutritionally complete while also being incredibly productive. I always find that when I'm most busy, when I'm most sort of sucked into my work, my diet falls by the wayside. That's the trend that I've seen in all of my life, especially when I'm stressed. That's when I, I end up resorting to foods that aren't nutritionally complete or healthy for me. Having Huel on hand has been a game-changer, not just for me. I see it in my team. We have two Huel fridges in this building that we record the podcast in. Um, and it's become a, a crutch, I guess, a health crutch, a positive health crutch for all of our team. Thank you, Huel, for creating a product that has helped me and helped my health stay intact in my busiest days over the last couple of years. Back to the episode. (paper crinkles) So you went and became a teacher-

Romesh Ranganathan 47:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:17 ... for a while. Um, and at some point, you d- you make the decision to

Steven Bartlett 47:23 reach out and swing onto that next branch. I'm trying to understand that, that sort of pivotal moment and like what happened, what made you take the, the leap. Crazy ... I mean, I know comedians when they start out don't get paid-

Romesh Ranganathan 47:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:35 ... a huge amount of money.

Romesh Ranganathan 47:36 No. You run at a loss for a long time.

Steven Bartlett 47:37 And you were ... You had a kid on the way-

Romesh Ranganathan 47:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:39 ... in the process of you taking that leap.

Romesh Ranganathan 47:42 Yeah. Logically it was foolish. There's no getting around that. But, um, well, what happened was I started teaching and I was really loving it. And then I, um, I just wanted to do stand-up as a hobby. Like all ... Loads of teachers have got hobbies-

Steven Bartlett 47:57 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 47:57 ... right? You know, so how many teachers are in bands, right? So I just thought, "This is gonna be my thing. I'm gonna do stand-up." So I just started doing gigs. And then it started to go really well. And then somebody said to me, "You know you could do, you could definitely do this for a job. You could hun-"

Steven Bartlett 48:13 What did you think when they said that?

Romesh Ranganathan 48:16 I just didn't ... It hadn't occurred to me. Well, that's a lie. It had occurred to me, but I didn't think ... You, you don't ... There's so many people trying to do stand-up, man. Like, there's so many people. It's s- like, what are the chances that you're gonna be able to make a living out of it? It's like so slim. And also, I just hadn't seen it as a career thing. But yeah, somebody comes to you and goes ... It was li- it was actually at a competition. I was doing a competition called Say You Think You're Funny in Edinburgh. And I was in the ... I got to the semi-final, and it's like one person got, gets through to the final, and I made it through to the final. And then one of the judges came up and said, "Oh, the reason that, um, we put you through is 'cause as soon as you walked on, we go, this guy's gonna be a comedian. Like, you just look like you're gonna be a comedian. You can definitely do this for a living." So there's just something about-... about you, you just go, "This guy's gonna be a comic." And so, that's when I was like, "Oh, okay." And then my gigging then had a bit more purpose then 'cause before I was just like, "I'm just gonna try and get good at this." You know, that... But then now I was thinking, "Oh, maybe I could do this for a job." (sniffs) And then, um, my agent... And s- so then I got an agent, and the agent said to me, "If you really wanna give this a go, you're gonna have to leave teaching." And so I talked to my wife about it, and we were like, "Okay." So I decided to leave at Christmas. So you give a t- like, a half term's notice or whatever. And, um-

Steven Bartlett 49:34 Didn't you get caught (laughs) by Mr.-

Romesh Ranganathan 49:37 Oh, mate.

Steven Bartlett 49:38 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 49:38 This is so bad, man. But like, basically I was head of sixth form. Well, actually I was junior head of sixth form, and, um, I don't know why I had to make that, that clarification.

Steven Bartlett 49:50 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 49:51 L- l- l- literally nobody cares. Sorry, was Romesh... I'm pretty sure Romesh was junior head of sixth form-

Steven Bartlett 49:55 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 49:56 ... in that period of his life. Anyway, why did I make that correction? Anyway, um, so I, so basically I got asked to do this, like, this show at the Edinburgh Fringe, like, every night. It was this, like, compilation mixed bill show or whatever, and it's, like, a big opportunity. And, um, but I was supposed to be back for A-level (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 50:14 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 50:15 ... A-level results. So I just got in touch with them and I said, um, "My w- my wife's poorly and so I can't..." (laughs) Oh God, I feel embarrassed saying it. "I can't make it back." And they went, "Okay." And so I said, "I'll be back as soon as I can." And then I just was like, "Okay, that's fine. I've got away with that." And then I came back to school the first day of September, and nobody in the office was talking to me. Like, it was like a proper frosty atmosphere. And I thought, "Oh God. What's happened here?" And then I opened my computer and it said, "Could you come to HR?" So I went to HR, and they, uh, they said to me, the lady said to me, she was lovely, um, she said to me, "So you couldn't come back because, uh, your wife was poorly?" And I s- I said, "Yeah." A- as soon as I actually said that, I thought, "This is over, right?"

Steven Bartlett 51:06 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 51:06 And then she goes, "Right." And then she just opened this drawer and just pulled out this folder, and it had, like, reviews, me appearing on lineups. Like, it was a com- comprehensive dossier of what I'd been up to at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And it was just so tricky 'cause I just thought, "That would be great to have."

Steven Bartlett 51:24 (laughs) Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 51:25 But, but, but as soon as she said that, um, she was like, "What do you wanna do?" She goes, "You can't work with that team anymore because they don't wanna work with you anymore because they, like, they feel so... Like, they're so pissed off with you for what you've done." She said, "We can move you to another head of year team." And I sort of knew that I was gonna leave to do comedy at that stage, so I thought it was not fair to go and join another head of year team only to leave, so I just said, "I'll become a maths tea- like, you know, I'll take a step down and, and, and be a maths teacher and not have any of that responsibility." And so I just did that for the remainder. But when I left, the thing that kind of, uh, r- turned things upside down again was that, like, three days before I was due to leave teaching, my dad passed away suddenly of a heart attack. And so, um, yeah, it w- i- and so then basically what happened was, is that the period after my dad passing away, we had to sort out my mum's fina- it turned out my dad's finances were a house of cards. He'd got this pub that he'd been sort of borrowing money from the house to finance and all this k- It was like a nightmare, so it just meant that it was like, the start of my comedy career was pretty tough. Like, we were just sort of throwing our time into trying to figure that out.

Steven Bartlett 52:38 How did you deal with that? How did you process the, the loss of your father?

Romesh Ranganathan 52:43 (inhales deeply) It was really

Romesh Ranganathan 52:44 difficult because, um, I was really close to my dad. I mean, my relationship, as you can imagine, was very troubled with my dad because, you know, I'd seen this guy... I'd seen this guy kind of want to leave us and, you know, he'd been sleeping around a lot, with a lot of different women. And, um, I'd seen Mum... You know, when we were in the bed and breakfast, I'd see my mum cry herself to sleep every night, and, like, it was really hard. You know, that was all because of my dad. So that was really difficult, and I remember, like, I'd had loads of arguments with him. He tried to be a parent again. I r- resisted because I felt like he didn't wanna be a parent. How could he come back in and start? So, you know, it was very difficult. But then as we got, you know, later on in his life, we got really close again, and, you know, I'm, I'm absolutely just delighted that when my dad passed away I was, I, I had a really good relationship with him. But it was hard, you know. Like, my dad was the person that I was most like in my family. My mum and my brother are very similar, and I was very s- and I'm very similar to how my dad was. So I found it really, really difficult. I found it really, really hard. And, um, the thing that I feel really sad about for him is that sort of when he passed away, he hadn't really got himself into a comfortable position. You know, like, everything had gone wrong and he was trying to work his way back up. But, you know, my recollection of my dad right up to the day he died was, like, absolutely working his arse off and kinda chasing his tail. You know? So that was, that is a bit of sadness in that, you know. I kinda think, "I wish he'd had it a bit easier in his later..." 'Cause, you know, sometimes I think... You know, I'll be honest with you. If my dad was still around, I would be broke 'cause he would've burnt through all of my money that I'd made from comedy. Like, my dad was, like, such a (laughs) he was so irresponsible with money. So, um, but yeah. There's a bit of sadness there.

Steven Bartlett 54:31 I- if you could've gone back to Romesh when your father was alive, in his last, say, five years, would you have acted differently in any way? I'm always so curious about this because I'm in a position where I'm fortunate enough that my parents are still around.

Romesh Ranganathan 54:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:42 And I, I, I spend time often forecasting the things I'm going to regret, so is there anything where you think, "I wish I'd said this or I should've," you know...

Romesh Ranganathan 54:52 Yeah, I mean, l- ... (smacks lips) So I, I, well, no is the honest answer.

Steven Bartlett 54:59 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 55:00 I, I, I think that you can...... be in a position where you don't feel that. I mean, look, you're always gonna feel like, "I should've said I love you more."

Steven Bartlett 55:07 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 55:07 Or whatever. But I remember when I was e- 18, I'd- I'd come back from uni, and I'd been out, like, with some mates getting drunk. And I hadn't told my mum when I was gonna come back, and I came back later than I said I was gonna. And I walked in pretty inconsiderate and drunk. And my mum and dad were sitting in front of the TV. And my dad said to me, "How can you come back at this time?" And I said to him, "How can you even talk to me about what I should be doing in this house?" And then I just launched into a monologue about how he had no right to tell me anything that I did in my life, how he wanted to walk away, "How can you come back in here and tell me that I should be doing whatever after what you've done to Mum, after what you've done to me and- me and my brother? Like, what are you doing?" Like, what ... You know. And I just went into this rant. And he sat there. Mate, as I'm telling you now, he took it from me. And like, you know, you think about, you know, Asian culture. You don't talk ... You know, my dad was very laid back, but you don't talk to your parents like that. Do you know what I mean? But he sat there. Like, he took it. He took every word from me. And I stormed out the house. And my mum watched me have this conversation and ordinarily, like, my mum would have, uh, picked me up on it. But she didn't. And I never spoke to my dad about that conversation again. So like, I went out for a bit. I came back in the next day. We never spoke about it. My never ... My dad never asked for an apology. I never apologized to my dad. We never spoke about it again. And if my relationship with my father hadn't have improved after this point, it would've d- ... I- I- I don't know how I would feel about that conversation. I, I, I ... It would be something that ... And even now as I'm saying it to you, I've made up with my dad, but, uh, I- it kills me that I said that to him. I don't disagree with anything I said, but it does kill me that I said that to him. But when it was his 60th birthday ... My dad's got loads of brothers and a sister. A lo- a load of them came over from Canada and Australia and ... to see him. And I wrote in his card, "Thank you for being a great dad and somebody I look up to." And (laughs) my dad opened the card, and he said to me ... H- he, like, read the card, and he went really quiet. It was like in the middle of quite a raucous family get-together. And he opened the card and got really quiet. And he just said to me, "Do you honestly mean that?" Like, he just didn't believe that that was my view of him. And like, he couldn't, like ... And then I realized, up to that point, my dad had just thought we'd not f- ... He just thought we weren't cool because of what had happened in the past. And he goes, "Do you h-" ... And he said to me, "Do you honestly mean that?" I said, "Yeah, of course I do." And then I felt, you know ... I felt like ... I feel like now my dad knew what I thought about him. Do you know what I mean? And, and the, the ... What I think of my dad is that he was a deeply, deeply, deeply flawed human being that had a great- a lot of great things about him. And, and, you know ... Um, so yeah, when he, when he passed away, I felt really ... I, I, I, I felt really close to him. But, you know, there's loads of things. Like, there's things where, like, if I'm being honest with you, when we started to go ... when things started to go wrong, I was quite materialistic. You know, "Can I have this? Can I have that? Why can't I have that anymore?" What, what are you doing, you prick?

Steven Bartlett 58:28 Oh, yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 58:28 Do you know what I mean? Like-

Steven Bartlett 58:29 I've, I've got those regrets.

Romesh Ranganathan 58:29 ... why are you valuing that stuff? I remember, like, I've got a really vivid memory of (laughs) wanting the new Public Enemy album, right? It was like 8.99 on cassette or something. And my dad said, "Yeah, I'll get it for you." And then on the day he just didn't have a tenner. He just ... He didn't have a tenner. Well, he didn't have any money. And I, like, flipped out. Do you know what I mean? I flipped out. "You promised me you would get ..." But, but at that time, you look at the context of it, you're being forgiving ... If you're tr- ... If you're being forgiving to that Romesh, everything's going tits up. This album is like some sort of security. He wants to listen to that as some sort of normality. Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 59:04 And it's a promise as well.

Romesh Ranganathan 59:05 Exactly. Exactly. And then he couldn't in the circumstances. What I should've done was gone, "Okay, cool. Well, I'd love to get it." That's what a good kid does. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 59:12 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 59:12 "I'd lo- ... Could you get it for me when we can? Or I'll find another way to get it."

Steven Bartlett 59:17 But as a kid, you sometimes interpret that as like, "You don't love me." Maybe in a deeper-

Romesh Ranganathan 59:20 100%

Steven Bartlett 59:20 You know what I mean?

Romesh Ranganathan 59:21 Yeah. 100%. And it's something that I'm really conscious of with my kids now, because you sort of go, "I don't want them to get the message that I don't love them." So ... But then you run the risk of, like, buying 'em everything. Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 59:35 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 59:35 It's like ... It's such a difficult thing. "I love you, have it."

Steven Bartlett 59:39 Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 59:39 "I love you, have it." "PlayStation?" "Yes, I love you."

Steven Bartlett 59:42 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 59:42 Like, "Hoodie?" "Yes, I love you."

Steven Bartlett 59:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan 59:44 "Trainers?" "Yes, I love you." And then you go, "Hold on a minute. This ain't good."

Steven Bartlett 59:47 Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan 59:47 "These kids need to hear no." So yeah. It's a tricky one, man.

Steven Bartlett 59:51 What about your mum? She seems to have, um, been this real warrior throughout all of this turmoil. And I was reading some quotes. I know she did an interview

Steven Bartlett 59:58 where, um, she just said that her ... The center of her universe was you two as brothers.

Romesh Ranganathan 1:00:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:02 And she would have done anything to include becoming a cleaner and taking other jobs in shops and stuff like that. She seems to be a kind of ... a real hero throughout your story.

Romesh Ranganathan 1:00:12 Yeah. I mean, she's like a ... She's amazing. You know, you, you think about, um ... You know, she, she came over from Sri Lanka. My ... She was, you know, 19, 20 when she came over. She grew up in a tiny village. She come, gets thrown into this new country. She tries to make her way, make new friends. Her husband is immersed in the world, in the country, much more than she is because she's a stay-at-home, you know, wife and mother. And she's like, you know, making her way. And then her life gets thrown upside down, and she goes through a position where she has to single-handedly raise her two sons because her husband's kinda dipped out. And, and, and on top of that, she's gotta deal with the heartbreak of what her husband has done-... as well as go, "Well, I've gotta like, I've gotta brush my shoulders off and like, and start an- and s- support these kids." It's like amazing, it's amazing. You know, it's amazing. And so like, (laughs) you know, she, she's like a hero of mine for, for, for how she's been through all of that time and how she continues to be now. I mean, don't get me wrong, she loves spending money and she loves being recognized and she loves a celebri- like being a celebrity. She loves being on TV, all of that. But I love, I'm c- I'm delighted. I'm delighted at my mom's period of life now after what she went through is being on TV, being comfortable, having her house paid off. Drives a nice c... Like great, wicked. Like do you know what I mean? Like, this is amazing. Do you know what I mean? Like, this is amazing. I mean, don't get me wrong, I do sometimes have a go at her and go, "You don't need that money." Do you know what I mean? Like, y- like, "Chill out." Y- and, oh, like you know, she does things that annoy me. Like for example, she crashed her car. She wasn't happy with the courtesy car that we're offering, so she then said to me, "Uh, Romesh, you need to give, uh, a guy that works at the insurance company two tickets to your tour, because he upgraded my car."

Steven Bartlett 1:02:16 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 1:02:17 So she does stuff like that. And like, s- but, but mate, she's like, what I'm w- I mean she's incredible. You know, I can't, you know, my, you can't s- I can't say no to her. Do you know what I mean? I, I, like she doesn't th- well, there's a, you know, it's debatable whether she takes the piss or not.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:34 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 1:02:34 But like, my mom's amazing. She's amazing and like, (clicks tongue) yeah, I, I, I, I owe a lot to her, you know. So she is, she is a hero of mine, definitely.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:45 Does she know that? Does she... Have you ever s- said to her what, what you think and feel about that period and how she behaved?

Romesh Ranganathan 1:02:51 I have said that to her. What I would say is that sits in direct contradiction to how many times I phone her. D- d- d- do you know what I mean? Like, like I, (laughs) I tell her I love her, but I don't get in touch enough for, a- as much as she'd like. I don't see her as much as she'd like. So, um, yeah, I probably should sort that out. I mean that, (laughs) I should probably sort that out.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:13 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 1:03:13 But, um, but she knows, she knows what I think of her, yeah, definitely. I've got no doubts in my mind that she knows what I think of her.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:19 When did you make it and what was the, the catalyst moment? You know, mak- making it is kinda like a, there's so much assumption

Steven Bartlett 1:03:26 in it, that there was a moment where everything changes. That's why I, it's a bit of a shitty question if I reflect on that. But like, when was, what was the, the first stone that fell or the first domino that fell that created the cascading events? I hear about this figure in your life called, uh, Sean Walsh.

Romesh Ranganathan 1:03:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:41 And the impact he had in believing in you and being very patient with you.

Romesh Ranganathan 1:03:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:44 I love that because I, we can all think of that per- that, I g- I can think in my life of that person that ma- like bizarrely had faith in me-

Romesh Ranganathan 1:03:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:51 ... a little bit more than I did in myself.

Romesh Ranganathan 1:03:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:54 But-

Romesh Ranganathan 1:03:54 Yeah, well, (sighs) it's an interesting one with Sean 'cause basically what happened was he saw me at a gig in Brighton and, like he liked, liked the set or whatever. And then he was going on tour and I was like... So at that stage it, if you're tour support, he basically he asked me to support him on tour. If you're tour support you drive, you drive the act, you drive the main act. So I'd go and pick him up and... And at that stage I was so broke that, um, you know, sometimes I feel, I don't know, you get paid after the gig, like, you know, after you've done a run of gigs. Sometimes it's like I don't know if I, I don't know if I've got enough money for petrol to like go and get him. It's like, it was like proper like, I was like really running on fumes financially. And, um, so I was picking him up and taking him to gigs and like that money from those gigs was basically keeping our bills paid, you know? If I didn't have those gigs, I don't know what we would have done. And then during that time, um, I, one of the things that he offered to do that I never took him up on was, I couldn't pay the road tax on my car. And I had some money due to come in from a gig and I said to Lisa, "When this money comes in, I'll pay the road tax."

Steven Bartlett 1:05:14 Your wife?

Romesh Ranganathan 1:05:15 My wife, sorry, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:16 Pa-

Romesh Ranganathan 1:05:16 I said, uh, I said to her, "When, when, when this money comes in I'll pay for the road tax." Anyway, we came home from the shops and the car was gone and they'd impounded it for not having road tax. And I phoned up and I said, um, "How do I get my car back?" And they said, "Well it's a £450 fine and it's £150 for every day that we have the car for." So I said, "Enjoy the car."

Steven Bartlett 1:05:39 (laughs)

Romesh Ranganathan 1:05:39 And then, uh, put the phone down (laughs) and I said to Lisa, "I'm really sorry we don't have a car any more. I don't know what to tell you. I can't afford, like there's no way, every day I spend trying to get that 450 quid, we gotta pay another 150. This is like mad." And then I told Sean about it and he straightaway goes, "I'll give you the money to get a car." He goes, "I'll just lend it to you," he goes, "I know you're good for it." He goes, "I know you'll start making money from comedy and you'll be able to pay me back." And I never took him up on it. But saying that was huge. Like it was so huge. Um, anyway, when we were on tour he started doing this show called Stand Up for the Week and that was like they did topical material and you had writers working on it. And he said to me, "Can you write me some, like write some stuff for the show?" Like, and it, it, it, actually what he started doing is he started going to me, "What do you think about this story?" And I'd tell him, e- uh, like he goes, "You know, what comedy angles have you got in this story?" And I'd talk to him and he'd like go, "Okay, okay, da da da." And little did I know, he was trying to help me out, right? So he was trying to test the waters. He said, "What's your angles on this? Da da da." Then he goes, "B- can you send me some stuff? Like send me some stuff you've written." And I remember sending him some stuff and he goes, "This is all shit. Can't, this is unusable." And he goes, "Try again next week. I'll send you the stories, have a go." And then I did it again and he goes, "Some of this is good. Most of it is shit." And then I did that ano- uh, for a co- another couple times. He goes, "Right, do you want to come into the writer's room?" He goes, "I get you into the writer's room and, and you can sit in and like do some stuff." So I sat in and then I became a writer on Stand Up for the Week. I started becoming a writer on Stand Up for the Week and then he did a show-... called Sean Welsh World. And he got me in as a writer on that. And then they did a press launch for the show, and they were doing a comedy gig as part of the press launch, and Sean got me on that comedy gig. And I did the gig, and the guys that produced Live at the Apollo were there for that gig, because it was like the same sort of production house that do the show. They s- I had a great set, and two days later, they phoned me and asked me to be on Live at the Apollo. And like, at that time, the money that you get for doing Live at the Apollo basically would pay my bills for six months, right? And so I didn't have an agent at the time, so they had to phone me directly. We were dropping the kids off at