Sadiq Khan: The Dark Side Of The Police. How Safe Are We REALLY? | E216

1. 0:00 – 2:23

   Intro

   1. SKSadiq Khan0:00

      Let's be frank. Donald Trump was obsessed with me. If the mayor of London wasn't somebody of my background, my faith, he wouldn't have responded the way he did, would he? Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan is the first Muslim mayor.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:11

      Has made some powerful opponents. And the new image of Britain's multicultural society. The mayor is with us. Do you think London's safe?

   3. SKSadiq Khan0:18

      Uh, uh, well, we've reduced homicides, knife crime, gun crime.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:22

      I don't think people feel safe in London.

   5. SKSadiq Khan0:24

      I'm not excusing it, I'm explaining it. It has to come, consequences.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:27

      There's been a lot of instances of police officers who have attacked, raped women and girls on the streets of London. What are you doing about that?

   7. SKSadiq Khan0:35

      We're doing it now.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:36

      How?

   9. SKSadiq Khan0:37

      I've been criticized for this.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett0:39

       Since you were elected mayor, what are the things you look at and go, "Do you know what? I failed there."

   11. SKSadiq Khan0:44

       Well, that's a good question, but I'm running for re-election in 467 days time. I'm not going to answer that question honestly because the answer's going to be used against me.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett0:50

       You can't tell the truth because someone might use it against you?

   13. SKSadiq Khan0:53

       I think most MPs have got to be inauthentic. I'll tell you why, because...

   14. SBSteven Bartlett0:58

       What's been your hardest day as London mayor?

   15. SKSadiq Khan1:00

       There's been a few.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:01

       At least 58 people were killed in the fire at Grenfell Tower.

   17. SKSadiq Khan1:06

       I, I, I still remember the images. I still remember the heat. You know, one family, six people wiped out and a number of terror attacks in London, London Bridge, Westminster Bridge, Finsbury Park. I went to a lot of funerals. That summer was hard. Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:24

       I just want to start this episode with a message of thanks. A thank you to everybody that tunes in to listen to this podcast. By doing so, you've enabled me to live out my dream, but also for many members of our team to live out their dreams too. It's one of the greatest privileges I could never have dreamed of or imagined in my life to get to do this, to get to learn from these people, to get to have these conversations, to get to interrogate them from a very selfish perspective, trying to solve problems I have in my life. So, I feel like I owe you a huge thank you for being here and for listening to these episodes and for making this platform what it is. Can I ask you a favor? I can't tell you how much, um, you can change the course of this podcast, the, the course of the guests we're able to invite to the show, and to the course of everything that we do here just by doing one simple thing. And that simple thing is hitting that subscribe button. Helps this channel more than I could ever explain. The guests on this platform are incredible because so many of you have hit that button. And I know when we think about what we want to do together over the next year on this show, a lot of it is going to be fueled by the amount of you that are subscribed

2. 2:23 – 8:14

   Early years

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:23

      and that tune into this show every week. So, thank you. Let's keep doing this. And I can't wait to see what this year brings for this show, for us as a community, and for this platform. (instrumental music plays) Sadiq, give me your context. I, I spent a long time reading through your backstory, and I think it's an im- especially important place to start, because it appears to be much of your, your reason for being and your reason for doing. So, can you take me right back? Um, I want to hear about Pakistan. I want to hear about your, your earliest years in London.

   2. SKSadiq Khan2:58

      Sure. So, uh, first, it's, it's a pleasure to, to, to be on this, uh, Stephen. Can I just say two things before we start? It's not me being a sycophant, and please don't think I'm being patronizing. But firstly, um, I think you realize that you're a massive role model to so many Londoners. And, and there are people that you will never meet who you've had an impact on. And so thank you, firstly, for that. And, and I meet people that you don't meet who, when I say, "Who's your role models?" Uh, and I pray you now to give examples of the hard work you do. Uh, so, so thank you for that. But secondly, congratulations. It's always lovely to meet somebody who's incredibly successful, um, who's normal. So, my, my, my family's, uh, story, uh, is quite complicated. Uh, my grandparents and great-grandparents were in India, both on my mom's side and my dad's side. And the story of India is India was part of the British Empire. And the short version of the long story is in 1947, uh, the British decided to give up India and partition India. Uh, I don't want to go into divide and rule and stuff, but there'd been sectarian violence now between Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus, and a Muslim in India wasn't safe. Just like a Sikh and Hindu, generally speaking, in West Pakistan and East Pakistan weren't safe. Why? Because these countries were going to be ostensibly Muslim, and the middle India, ostensibly Hindu and Sikh. So my grandparents and great-grandparents left everything behind, everything behind. So my parents had experienced being immigrants once already, right? From India to Pakistan. And they had a comfortable life in Pakistan, middle class, upper middle class. Uh, my dad decided... He was, uh, in the Pakistani Air Force. He went first to Australia, uh, and if any Australian's watching this, this is no aspersion on your country. It's a great country, right? He didn't really like Australia. And so when he went, when he went b- back to Pakistan, he didn't want to go to Australia to live. And he came to London. And, uh, he made London his home. And this is a London which, yes, when he first came, there were signs saying, you know, "No Blacks, no Irish, no dogs." By Blacks, anybody who wasn't white. And when I compare my, my mum and dad who traveled, you know, three, 4000 miles, learned a new language, learned a new culture, raised a family. I was born in Tooting, in St. George's Hospital.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett5:19

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SKSadiq Khan5:20

      I first lived a mile up the road in the Henry Prince Estate on a council estate. My parents moved a mile the other way after is when my dad managed to save a deposit for a house. And I now live a mile and a half from where I was born. So I've literally gone up, up a mile radius, right, from where I was born, yet my grandparents and my parents had this huge strife and traveled all this way. So I'll be the first Khan in three generations, uh, not to be a migrant, because I'm, I'm staying here.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett5:45

      That whole experience, growing up in a house of 10, 10 people, eight siblings in total, um, in a, in a council house? Um-

   6. SKSadiq Khan5:54

      Flat, flat, yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:54

      Council flat. Um, the immigrant story you've told there, watching your parents struggle to provide for both of, for all of you, um-What imprint has that left on you when you look back and go, "That's why I am the way that I am."? That's- it's really- I'm really trying to get at the real defining attributes, the things that make Sadiq different from the- the average person on the street, the work ethic, the perspic- you know. Um, and with that, I also want to know, you know, one of my guests on this podcast that was the coach for Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant said that we all have a dark side, and much of our dark side is- can be attributed to the thing that makes us, quote unquote, "great."

   8. SKSadiq Khan6:36

      Mm-hmm. You seen The Last Dance?

   9. SBSteven Bartlett6:38

      Yeah. Oh, God, it's-

   10. SKSadiq Khan6:39

       That's amazing, isn't it?

   11. SBSteven Bartlett6:39

       ... one of my favorite films up- upstairs on the wall.

   12. SKSadiq Khan6:41

       Yeah. S- so, um, so, uh, um, I- I think you tend to mirror, emulate, and be like those you're around. You copy their mannerisms and their behaviors and so forth. And I- I- I was raised in a family where we felt incredibly privileged. My mum and dad both made sure we understood that this privilege meant we had a responsibility to, you know, listen to your teachers at school, to work hard, um, and you know, to- to, you know, not be a shirker basically. And so, you know, all of us not just had a really good worth eh- work ethic, still do, all of us also, it's interesting, I was just thinking about this the other night, have given something back, whether it's coaching in boxing or whether it's, you know, volunteering at a swimming club, whether it's, you know, politics, whatever. Because that came from our- our parents and what we saw in relation- and also what we saw as growing on the estate and how our f- you know, what our friends were doing and stuff. And, you know, and the interesting thing about, uh, our state was everyone worked. All- all the dads worked. Most of the mums had a job and, you know, there was a work ethic and a sense of community. I'm not pretending it was brilliant, you know, they'll roast me in classes and stuff. But yeah, so, you know, the, you know, my wife often, you know, jokes that, you know, I can't sit around doing nothing. I've always gotta be doing something because I always saw my dad doing something. Even if it meant on, you know, the odd day he'd have off, he'd take us to museums, take us to galleries, go out on a tour of London, go to Hyde Park.

3. 8:14 – 14:21

   Working all the time

   1. SKSadiq Khan8:14

      So- so there was no- there was no time for doing nothing. Um, and so it's really... and so I- it's hard for me to actually spend downtime, going to the theater and just do leisure or, you know, read a book for- for the sake of reading a book and stuff 'cause, you know, they were go-getters.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett8:31

      I- I saw that throughout your story, um, and I heard it from some of your colleagues as well that... and I also heard you say it, in fact, in one interview where you said that you work seven days a week. That's not very healthy, is it?

   3. SKSadiq Khan8:45

      Yes and no. So, um, I'm very lucky. I'm privileged. I'm- I'm- I'm the mayor of London. I did a meeting last week with my staff, uh, my- my- my main, my sort of top staff. A- and I said to them last week, "Listen, um, I've got to reapply for my job, uh, at the next election. In this term, we have 475 days left." That's now down to 467 days left at the time we're recording this. We've got to work on the basis that there is a possibility, I'll try my best that it doesn't happen, there is a possibility I will not be reelected. When I reapply for my job, Londoners will say, "No." We've got to use every single day we have left, every hour we have left to make sure we maximize delivering for our city to make it safer, to make it fairer, to make it greener, to make it more prosperous. Y- we can't afford to waste this time. It's a privilege. It's a privilege to be running the-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett9:37

      But what about, what about you though and your, and your family and all the other things that make life, uh, you know, worth living? It's not just work, right?

   5. SKSadiq Khan9:44

      Yeah. But- but some of the stuff I do is work without being work. I'll give you an example. So, uh, I might go and support, uh, uh, a theater production. My support is going along to watch it and they can then amplify it by being there, right?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett9:59

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SKSadiq Khan10:00

      But it's a great night out for- for- for my wife and I. Or I might do something with- with my daughters and stuff. You know, but I- but I recognize that my f- my wife and daughters and my mum and my brothers and sisters and my in-laws, you know, have made sacrifices by me doing my job. And, uh, you know, and I'm cognizant of that and I'm grateful for that. You can't do the job that I'm doing without the support of your family. By the way, you can also do this job and work three days a week. The previous guy did that. Right? You can do that. Right? But he may not have felt privileged to do the job. I think it's a privilege. And I remember when I was in government, um, and I remember in 2010, uh, the last year I sat around the cabinet with, uh, you know, Gordon Brown and the team. And I think there were some incredibly talented people around that cabinet in the prime of their game. Some incredibly talented special advisors in the prime of their game. We lost a general election and their peak years, they're not in government. They're not advising the government. Had I known in 2005 when I first became an MP and had, you know, Tony and Gordon sat down with 300 plus MPs and said, "Listen, we've got to maximize these five years between 2005, 2010," I think things would may have been different because we'd have realized it's a privilege we've got to use every day we have. You know? So I'm not criticizing Tony and Gordon, but I'm saying, you don't know how long you've got your job, right? And so my view is you make the most of it. You know, there's time to rest later on.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett11:32

      That's also not guaranteed though, right?

   9. SKSadiq Khan11:34

      Well, you know-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett11:35

       In terms of life generally.

   11. SKSadiq Khan11:37

       Yeah. But, you know, I love my job. I- I've- I've been lucky to have three big jobs. I was a lawyer for 11 years. Loved it. Loved being a lawyer. I was a parliamentarian and a minister for 11 years. Loved it. And I'm now the mayor. I've been the mayor for the last six and a half years. And so if you are lucky enough to have a job you love and your family are supportive, th- you gotta have a supportive family. My wife is so supportive. She's not just a, an incredible cheerleader. She gives me good advice. She pulls me up, you know, when I, when I bring the arrogance home or have delusions of grandeur.You know, she makes sure I put the bins out. She makes sure that I'm doing my ... cleaning up and stuff. You need that at home. That sort of, you need that sense of normality at home. My daughters, jeez, I mean, you know, they, they, there's no areas of grace in my house. They're both back home now after finishing university. They're both working. Um, and so they're supportive. They, they support what I'm doing. Uh, they know I'm here. Um, and, uh-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett12:26

       If I spoke to your wife and I said to her, I said, "What are you, um... What annoys you about Sadiq?"

   13. SKSadiq Khan12:31

       I-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett12:31

       'Cause I could tell you what my girlfriend would say in a heartbeat.

   15. SKSadiq Khan12:33

       She'd say, she'd say, "Stephen, it's just an hour and a half. How long have you got?" And, uh-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett12:36

       (laughs)

   17. SKSadiq Khan12:36

       ... it's a long list. I'm sure there's a long list of stuff. I mean, I think, I think, uh-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett12:40

       'Cause people don't get to see that, the impact that being a politician has on the family at home. Now, this is one of the things I'm super interested in with all my guests is, um, how they, how that then impacts all the people we don't get to see.

   19. SKSadiq Khan12:52

       Yeah, yeah. It's, that's right. So what I, what I did at early stage was I involved, uh, my office. So, so my, my, my team in my office, a lot of them are now my best friends. I've worked with them so long. They know my, they know Sadia and they know the kids. So, uh, simple things, you know, my team will send Sadia my diary for the week in advance. So Sad- Sadia knows what I'm doing, the nights I'm out, the nights I'm in, which things she'll be coming along to. And so the family's involved in that. At home, we have, uh, you know, on, on the fridge, sort of, uh, uh, which tells us who's at home for, for walking Luna and so forth. And so we gotta, w- it only works when you share what you're doing and stuff. My wife's got her own, you know, she, she's got two jobs herself. So it's, it only works if, you know, everyone's on the same page. It w- does not work, and a lot of my friends in politics, marriage breakups. A lot of my friends in the law, marriage breakups, you know, all those sorts of problems and stuff. So you've gotta have not just somebody who, you know, is supportive of you doing it, but is an active player in you doing it. And you've gotta make sure that parts of your work life are shared with your home life. There's a couple of conditions we have at home-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett13:58

       What is the biggest-

   21. SKSadiq Khan13:59

       ... which is-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett13:59

       ... friction, though? That's the question I asked.

   23. SKSadiq Khan14:00

       Yeah. So I mean, we don't have much friction at home. I mean, work-life balance is an issue. Uh, you know, me, me missing another family event or, or me not being able to go to, um, a distant friend's or relation's social event. But we, we don't really do friction. I'm trying, you know, trying to think that the last time we had... You know, it's diary management. So last Saturday, for example,

4. 14:21 – 20:05

   Why are you a politician?

   1. SKSadiq Khan14:21

      uh, and I, I was, I was doing something for work and then I promised to go to an, you know, party in Eastbourne, uh, uh, an anniversary party of a friend. And, you know, and then do something back in London on Sunday. So managing that with, negotiating that with my wife and my daughters was, was quite, was quite a feat.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett14:38

      You mentioned you were a lawyer for, um, just, just more than a decade. I'm always, um, I'm always... I, I think the word is skeptical. I said this to Matt Hancock when I spoke to him about, like, why politicians become politicians. Um, you had a great job, you know, paid a lot of money. You made the decision to, to quit that job very abruptly and go into politics and become ultimately a Labour MP. Why?

   3. SKSadiq Khan15:07

      So, so the, the, the, sort of the qualification to, to, to that question, you're right by the way, that's all right, is it was the MP for Tooting.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett15:14

      Yeah.

   5. SKSadiq Khan15:15

      So what I wasn't gonna do is give up my legal career. And by the way, it was, it was, it wasn't just a, a great little career, but I had a great future ahead of me because, you, you know, just the two of us ran the business, very profitable. Going from being, you know, a business with just employing eight people to more than 50 while I was a partner. But the opportunity came to be the MP for Tooting. Tooting, I was born and raised in, literally. The MP for Tooting, a guy called Tom Cox, had been the MP my entire life. I'd never known any other MP. I'd never been inside the Chamber of Parliament. I didn't know any friends who were MPs. Uh, I didn't really know any friends in politics, I don't think. I was a counselor in my spare time, uh, looking, you know, serving the local community. As a lawyer, in my spare time, I was, in my spare time, I was chair of Liberty Human Rights Group, you know, chair of Legal Action Group, a legal aid charity group. Um, but the, the opportunity came to be the MP for Tooting, and, you know, I couldn't say no, um, because, you know, it was the chance to represent my community in Parliament. And the way I, I described it at the time 'cause people were saying to me, "What are you doing? Why? It doesn't make sense," was, you know, I was blessed to have a good legal career and if I won a case for my client, he or she benefited, or if I settled a case. If the case went to one of the higher courts, we'd set a precedent. Uh, setting a precedent means that other people benefit from the precedent of the case 'cause you've, you've changed the law. And that's a big deal. And, you know, I was blessed to do that. But when you're in parliament and you're part of the government, you can pass legislation or amend legislation that affects millions of people. Uh, so not just people in Tooting, but people across our city and our country. And being the MP for Tooting, uh, was why I gave up the legal career, not to be an MP for an MP's sake, to be the MP for Tooting.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett17:01

      Why does that matter to you, helping millions of people?

   7. SKSadiq Khan17:03

      'Cause it's my... It's, it's, it's public service, right? It's, it's the, the ability to impact and improve people's, uh, lives. I could have, you know, when I left, when I left law school, gone and worked in the City and, and, you know, been a City lawyer. Uh, but I chose to do the law that I chose to do for a v- variety of reasons. You know, it's important for me to be a lawyer practicing, you know, discrimination law, you know, issues around police misconduct, issues around, uh, employment law, doing litigation, the sort of cases that I, that I undertook. What motivated me was this issue of acting on behalf of the underdog, uh, being the advocate for people I grew up with who were routinely, you know, at the wrong end of the sus law, stop and search. People I knew who were unfairly dismissed, uh, people who, you know, I was aware of who had been discriminated against, you know, um, acting for the victims of miscarriages of justice. Um, that was important to me.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett17:56

      Why?

   9. SKSadiq Khan17:57

      Uh, a number of reasons. Uh, my inspiration for being a lawyer is, uh... Have you read To Kill a Mockingbird?

   10. SBSteven Bartlett18:03

       No.

   11. SKSadiq Khan18:04

       I wanted to be Atticus Finch, right? We, you know, we all want to be A- Atticus Finch. And then, and then when I watched, uh, when I was growing up, this, this program on TV, you're, you're too young to remember it, called LA Law.... I wanted to be this lawyer called Fuentes. Jimmy Smits played this lawyer who was doing these really good cases. But also, I remember a number of things happened around that time where I felt helpless. Uh, you know, the way my dad was treated in his bus garage, the bus garage closing down, f-felt helpless. We couldn't do anything about it. You know, going on a march is fine, but you need to, to, to challenge this in, in the courts if you could. If you couldn't, use the, use the, the, the court system. You got to change the laws. You know, seeing friends treated the way they were, and, and I thought, "That's not wrong, but there's no way of helping, you know, people who need help." And being a lawyer is a noble thing. I know peop- I know lawyers get a bad, bad rep, you know. Uh, some lawyers do earn a lot of money. But people who do the law that I was doing, you know, uh, don't earn a lot of money. Uh, some do, uh, and I was very lucky to, to, to do well. But it's important to me, public service, to act on behalf of these, uh, people. Who, who acts on behalf of the person who's the receiving end of police misconduct? Who acts on behalf of the person who's, uh, you know, discriminated on, on the grounds of their race or gender in the, in the workplace?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett19:13

       So, so what I got from that is your dad was... I'm trying to f- understand the personal reasons why you chose that path, which is like, you know, like, we've all chosen our paths for, for, for interesting reasons. I think a lot of my path was defined by my own insecurities as a kid. What I've heard though is your, th- the thing about your dad's bus, um, depot being shut down.

   13. SKSadiq Khan19:32

       Bus garage, yeah, that's right.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett19:32

       Bus garage. And then there was s- some of your friends in your life had experienced certain types of abuse that were, um, because of their race or mis- uh, but also mistreatment by the police. That, that was your, like, personal motivation for-

   15. SKSadiq Khan19:45

       Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Uh, yes. So, so those are my experiences. My experience growing up was that, you know, actually, life isn't always fair, and you need somebody to be there to help you. Um, and it's never been about, you know, it, it sounds, you know, uh, frankly speaking a bit, you know, wankerish. But it's

5. 20:05 – 28:31

   What direction do you think London has gone in in the last 10 years?

   1. SKSadiq Khan20:05

      never been about yourself making money. None of my siblings have, you know, following, followed paths, which is interesting actually. None of us have followed paths where it's been about, you know, making money for money's sake. It's about doing a job we enjoy and trying to give something back where you can, whether it's being a teacher, whether it's being, you know, a, a, a coach or whatever.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett20:23

      Over the last 10 years, w- w- in your own view, which direction do you think London has gone in as, in terms of, like, safety and in terms of, um, desirability and in terms of world influence over the last, let's say, 10 years? 'Cause it's, I think it's my view that it's, it's, it's probably gone i- in a negative direction in terms of, like, influence, safety, um, and, yeah, I think gen- generally, like, the respect of the, of the capital. And I think, I mean, a number of factors have contributed to that. Obviously, the pandemic has been a big one. But then I think generally the, the knife crime issue and the safety issues. And the- these are all things influenced by biases, right? 'Cause I was, uh, when I moved to London, I was burgled really badly. 3:00 AM in the morning, came in my house, stole everything. We never heard anything back from the police. There was no interest in, in helping us. So, um, but just generally, I've, I've lived in other parts of the world-

   3. SKSadiq Khan21:14

      Yeah, no, sure, sure.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett21:15

      ... you know, lived in the Middle East, lived in, spent time in Dubai, lived in New York for many, many years. Um, New York's n- not, n- not necessarily safe at all. But other parts of the world seem to be much safer. And it's funny, 'cause when I speak to some of my, um, friends who've been successful in business, and they talk about why they're leaving the UK, it's, one of the top three reasons is always safety. It's always, "I don't feel safe in London." Um, before I, before I, before we, before we had this con- had this conversation, I was listening to, um, Amir Khan talk about h- him being robbed on the high street in London, coming out a restaurant at gunpoint. You see the footballers, the Arsenal players all being robbed at knifepoint on mopeds. My girlfriend had her phone snatched out of her hand while walking, you know, and you just think, "Oh, God, it's not safe to be in London."

   5. SKSadiq Khan21:58

      First is, I'm really sorry about your experience, and I hope it wasn't too distressing. So, so, look. So if you look at London over the last, uh, 10 years, the l- last 20 years e- even. Uh, if you park Brexit for a second, uh, 'cause we can come back to that, uh, in relation to the impact of Brexit on, uh, London. London is a global city. Uh,, i- u- you know, I don't wanna go to various metrics, but it's, we're, we're doing incredibly well, uh, as a global city in relation to, uh, foreign direct investment, in relation to, uh, the diversity of people coming to London, in relation to, you know, the tourism to London.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett22:29

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SKSadiq Khan22:30

      In relation to retention of talent, uh, in relation to the diversity of our economy. It's not just the financial services, professional services, legal services, life sciences, higher education, um, culture, tech, uh, so forth. Um, so the underlying strengths are still there, and we are doing incredibly well. We punch well above our weight in relation to the rest of the country. Because of how well we're doing, we contribute, roughly speaking, every year, net to the treasury, uh, 42 billion pounds, and it's been going up over the period of time. So, so we, uh, you know, as a slice of the national pie, contribute far more than we're supposed to b- bear in mind the size of o- our city. And this, because we've managed to attract talent and keep talent.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett23:10

      That's why I'm here.

   9. SKSadiq Khan23:11

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett23:12

       But the reason why I might go is because it's-

   11. SKSadiq Khan23:14

       Well, let me come to that in a second. Yeah. L-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett23:15

       ... well, it doesn't feel, doesn't feel safe.

   13. SKSadiq Khan23:15

       And so, and so one of the challenges we've had post-Brexit is to keep that talent here, and, and we can talk about some of the stuff we've done to keep it. In relation to sa- safety, it is a fact, uh, and I, and I ap- and I'm really sorry for, for your experience, uh, genuinely, Stephen, because I meet too many people like you being the victims of crime. But I'm afraid the bad news is since 2012, uh, uh, and nationally 2013, uh, serious violence has been going up since 2013 across our country, including London. London is not, uh, separate from the rest of the country in feeling the impact. Now, without excusing criminality, and I'm not excusing those people who burgled your house, by the way, and I'm not saying this for their motivation, but there is a link between... And crime has complex causes, by the way, without excusing it, you know. Uh, a- and I believe very simply you gotta deal with it in two ways. One is to be tough on crime, more policing, give them the support they need to, to make sure they deal with the, the criminals. I call it a public health approach when it comes to that, to explain what I mean. And tougher the complex causes of crime in relation to dealing with underlying causes, deprivation, poverty, alienation, inequality, and so forth. You can't escape the fact...... that since 2010, we've had massive austerity in this country. So there have been 21,000 fewer police officers across the country in the last 12 years. That is a fact. We've got youth clubs that have closed down, youth centers closed down, after school clubs not taking place, weekly clubs not taking place, uh, unemployment's gone, uh, uh, high un- until very recently and so forth. I'm not excusing it, I'm explaining it. And so, uh, you know, when I became mayor, one of the things I promised Londoners I would do is to be straight with Londoners about the problems in relation to... I was quite clear straightaway saying, "Listen, these cuts have got consequences and we've got to recognize there are consequences. So I'm going to use the limited powers I have and raise council tax. That's one lever to bring money in and use it to pay for more police officers." And I was criticized for doing so, but I had to do it because the, your experience was one I'd heard too many times before. So we've paid for 1,300 more officers, not enough, but it's what all, all I can do. I, I, there's a limit how much you can raise council tax too. It's a regressive tax. But also used business rates money to open up youth clubs again, youth centers, employ youth workers, have summer schemes. We have now 32,000 mentors. We're gonna get to 100,000 over the next two, three years. Mentors are crucial in, in my view. And the good news, I'm not complacent at all, and Amir Khan's experience was also awful, uh, was the good news is we have bucked the national trend. So across the country, homicides are going up. In London, they're going down. We've reduced homicides, knife crime, gun crime, teenage homicides, burglary since I became mayor. Nowhere near low enough, uh, 'cause we've in- we've got to invest more in the police and invest more in the causes of crime. And when I talk about public health approach, Stephen, what I mean by that is this. Think of crime as you would a public health issue. What would you do? You deal with the infection, you've got to cure the infection, right? More police officers, uh, you know, got to arrest people. You've got to stop the infection spreading. Really important we stop, you know, the crime spreading, people thinking that you can be successful by being a criminal. We've got to stop it, deal with the gangs, so forth. But stop the infection occurring in the first place. Stop the crime occurring in the first place. And, you know, uh, it's a source of pride to me. We've not made the progress, but our policies, being tough on crime and investing in the police, and we are reforming the police at the same time, but also investing in young people is leading to the turnaround in London. And we've bucked the national trend in London.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett26:50

       Ch- ch-

   15. SKSadiq Khan26:51

       As a global city... Sorry. As a global city, uh, you speak to, as I do regularly, the mayor of New York, the mayor of Chicago, the mayor of LA. Those are our comparators with respect not-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett27:01

       Do you know what it is though? I just... I would just like to feel really safe. And I, I... When I go to other places, if you go to, uh, somewhere in the Middle East or Dubai or whatever it might be, you feel exceptionally safe-

   17. SKSadiq Khan27:12

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett27:12

       ... you know? So it's... You know, I... To be honest, I went to Indonesia. I was in Indonesia a couple of weeks ago. I was in Bali. I said to my girlfriend, I said, "You could leave, you could leave your wallet on the floor here and it, it would still be there an hour later when you come back." You do that in London, you know, not only have you lost your wallet, you've probably come back, you've lost your shoes or something, you know, like, and I just-

   19. SKSadiq Khan27:27

       There's all sorts of great charity, generosity and, you know, l- Londoners aren't quite, all quite like that, Stephen, to be fair.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett27:33

       I don't think they feel safe. I don't think people feel safe in London.

   21. SKSadiq Khan27:35

       No, no. A- a- a- a- and more so if you're a woman or a girl. If you think you don't feel safe, one of the big challenges that we've got is making sure that women and girls feel safe.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett27:42

       Is this all solvable in your view?

   23. SKSadiq Khan27:44

       Without a doubt. We saw in the-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett27:45

       How?

   25. SKSadiq Khan27:45

       We saw in the, uh, 2000s, uh, you know, uh, between 1997 and, uh, you know, the mid-noughties, huge progress made in reducing crime. Uh, and it was dealing with the two things that I said. You've got to be tough on crime and tough on the causes, you gotta invest in policing, but also invest in dealing with the causes of, uh, uh, police and definitely solvable. We've made progress, uh, in the past, we're making progress in London, uh, and now. We've got to make sure at the same time, of course, you know, we reform the police, well publicize issues in, uh, policing. London has got to be the eyes and the ears. There are some amazing citizens in London who, you know, would return the wallet to you, uh, you know, if you left it in a r- if you'd lost it or left it around in London, will report something taking place, will come forward if they're a witness of a crime, will come forward

6. 28:31 – 33:48

   The knife crime problem

   1. SKSadiq Khan28:31

      and support the police if they're a victim of a crime, will join the police service. These problems are definitely solvable. Uh, we've done it in the past, we're doing it now, uh, and it... With the possibility, you know, in, in the not dis- distant future of a, you know, changing government and a government that invests in public services, definitely solvable.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett28:48

      On the, one of the points you made there about the infection spreading I thought was quite compelling. I, I was reading about the, the story of, um, I think it's Hazratwali? The story of an 18-year-old guy who was in Twickenham, was approached by a 16-year-old kid, ended up being stabbed to death by, with an eight in- eight-inch knife because he got into an argument with this person, and when that 16-year-old that stabbed him to death was asked, he said he stabbed him because he was... people in his life had been, um, victims of knife crime and he, he thought, he was scared that Hazrat would have a knife himself.

   3. SKSadiq Khan29:20

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett29:20

      That's the infection you're talking about where-

   5. SKSadiq Khan29:22

      Yes. Basically what happens is, um, some young people that I speak to, um, will think the way to be safe is to carry a knife because they suspect you might be carrying a knife, right? Uh, and so we've got to get the message across that, you know, you car- leaving home with a knife doesn't make you more safe, it makes you less safe. So if you go to a primary school now, not a secondary school, a primary school, uh, a- across the country by the way, and you have a classroom of 30 people-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett29:50

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SKSadiq Khan29:51

      ... and you say, "How many of you know somebody carrying a knife?" You'll be shocked the number of hands that go up in a primary school, right? Uh, secondary school it's even higher. And so there is this belief amongst young people that carrying a knife makes you more safe, not less safe. And by the way, I went to a tough secondary school, lots of fights. Nobody even thought about taking a knife to school, right? Or getting involved, uh, with, with knives at all-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett30:18

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SKSadiq Khan30:18

      ... you know? Um, so we've got to deal with that issue at source.... to make sure young people understand the dangers. We're going into schools, speaking to young people, people with credibility. You gotta have somebody who's, uh, the message carrier needs to be somebody who kids respect and will listen to, right? And so, getting people to go into schools to explain the dangers. Sometimes it's a bereaved mom.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett30:38

       Hm.

   11. SKSadiq Khan30:38

       A bereaved mom can be really effective in explaining the story about her son, tends to be boys, about her son, uh, and the dangers of carrying a knife. So we're gonna stop it at source. We also gotta make sure, frankly speaking, uh, that there's intelligence-led stop and search-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett30:53

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SKSadiq Khan30:53

       ... right? 'Cause if you're carrying a knife, I want you to be stopped and searched, and if you've got a knife, taken off you. And we've made progress in taking knives off people, which is saving lives. Weapon sweeps is really important. But also, if you're caught carrying a knife, there's gotta be serious sentences. There's gotta be a consequence of you carrying that knife. But, you know... And that's why we gotta have these conversations. That's why it's the public health approach. And it is leading to, you know, huge reductions, you know. Over the last year, we've had a 55% reduction in teenage homicides. Not enough. One is one too many. Uh, you know, a few homicides last year than when I first became, uh, mayor. Not enough, but we're making progress. Because the investment is now starting to pay dividends in relation to youth clubs, youth work, going into schools, more police officers. Uh-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett31:34

       There was a, there was a big drop in knife crime, wasn't there? Um, was it 2020, I'm gonna say?

   15. SKSadiq Khan31:38

       So it's the-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett31:38

       Was that the pandemic?

   17. SKSadiq Khan31:39

       So the pandemic, we, we saw a reduction, uh, number of reasons obviously 'cause-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett31:43

       Lockdown.

   19. SKSadiq Khan31:43

       ... for three months people were... But, but there was the lockdown and stuff. But, uh, and there's, that progress we've, we've carried on. But it started going down before the pandemic. Uh, we first started investing in, in, it's called the Young Londoners Fund, in about 2018, '19. But it takes some time to get youth, youth workers back employed, youth centers back open. And also young people starting to have these points landed on them. Uh, it's not, there's no, you know, light bulb moment. It's gotta take time. Spend time with them. And that's why mentors are so important. The reason I made the point at the beginning, Stephen, about, about you as a role model is, you know, I'm a firm believer in you can't, you can't beat it if you can't see it, right? I was lucky. I was lucky that I saw at home my mum working really hard, my dad working really hard, my big brothers working really hard. I had role models. A lot of young people haven't got that role model at home. The youth worker is that role model. A youth worker is an amazing asset to a young person if you've not got the role model at home, in relation to a big brother, a friend, somebody you can ring up, somebody to give you careers advice. You know, a lot of young people don't know how to put up a tie, right? Don't know how to shave. Can't go for a job interview. Those soft skills we're teaching young people now. You may think, "Why are you teaching young people those soft skills?" Because they need those soft skills, right?

   20. SBSteven Bartlett32:45

       Well, knife crime is up since last year though, isn't it?

   21. SKSadiq Khan32:47

       No, it's gone down. So basically-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett32:48

       Is it-

   23. SKSadiq Khan32:49

       ... knife crime's g- knife crime's gone down since I became mayor. Uh, homicides gone down.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett32:53

       Since last year? Since last year?

   25. SKSadiq Khan32:54

       Uh, no, robbery's gone up a bit. Robbery's gone up a bit for-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett32:56

       Okay.

   27. SKSadiq Khan32:56

       ... a number of reasons.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett32:57

       (laughs)

   29. SKSadiq Khan32:57

       Uh, we're dealing with, yeah, um-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett32:59

       That's me.
7. 33:48 – 37:56

   Police officers attacking women

   1. SKSadiq Khan33:48

      you know, people who are worried, uh, about their safety. And, you know, perception is, is important here because it's fear of crime that you're talking about. Because of your experience, right?

   2. SBSteven Bartlett33:59

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SKSadiq Khan33:59

      Uh, and you'll speak to your friends. And, uh, not unreasonable that they'll be apprehensive and scared. So, it's a problem for me and we've got to address it.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett34:05

      Women and girls, there's been, um, a lot of talk recently about instances of police officers who have attacked, raped, whi- women and girls on the streets of London. What are you doing about that to prevent that happening going forward?

   5. SKSadiq Khan34:25

      So, uh, in, in the last few years, there's been, at last, p- publicity given to the fact that every three days across our country, a woman is killed at the hands of a man. Every three days. And that's a sobering fact. Recently, we've seen, which is the tragic murders of Sarah Everard, um, you know, Zara Aleena, you know, Bibaa, and, uh, Nicole, uh, you know, and many others. Sabina Nessa. But also we've seen people who we entrust to keep us safe, peace officers, police officers, the people we go to when we're the victims of crime, being involved in the most serious crimes possible. Sarah Everard was, uh, uh, abducted by a man using his warrant card, raped, and killed by a serving police officer. We had, uh, David Carrick, somebody who'd been a police officer for almost 20 years, we discover throughout most of his 20 years had been a prolific sexual offender, using the fact that he's a police officer to commit some of those crimes. But also, it appears there were opportunities for the police during the vetting process to find out this guy was a criminal. And not just stop him being a police officer, but take action against him. My view that I've been making clear for a number of years now, and I've been criticized for this, is I think there are systemic cultural issues in the police service. Uh, one of the reasons why I ultimately lost con- I ultimately lost confidence in the previous commissioner was my lack of belief in her ability to understand this is an issue, have a plan to address this, or have a plan to win back the trust and confidence of Londoners. And so, we've got to make sure we have a reforming commissioner doing this job. Unless the guy at the top, or the woman at the top, understands there's a problem, how are you gonna fix it? I think the new commissioner and his deputy understand there's a problem and they got a plan to fix it. That they're taking on board the recommendations from an outsider. Y- you can't mark your own homework. You need somebody else to look into things-... tell you how bad things are, make recommendations, and follow them through. So we got an outsider, Louise Casey, to look into what's going on in the Met Police service. She's published an interim report. The commission's accepted all the findings. She will now publish her final report later on this year. We need to change the rules around how police officers are employed. So if a member of your staff had a nickname, The Bastard, that would raise questions for you, right? Why is this guy's nickname amongst his colleagues The Bastard? Or other nicknames that police officers involved in this stuff have had. No action taken against them because it's very difficult for the commissioner and others to get rid of dodgy officers. The regulations make it difficult. But we're not asking necessarily in all cases for criminal prosecution. We're asking for those officers to be at least sacked. So we're lobbying the government to change the regulations to make it easier for the commission to get rid of dodgy officers. We've set up a hotline so people can ring in and police officers can ring in about dodgy behavior of other officers. From city hall, without government support, from city hall, we're investing more money in ramping up the vetting processes, right? This guy should've been spotted a mile away. I've also asked the commissioner, he's, he's... well, he... it was his idea, to be fair, to go back 10 years and look at every single time a police officer has had a complaint made against them of this nature, to see if any other opportunities were missed with o- other officers. Uh, we've also got a new unit which we're investing in, an anti-abuse and corruption unit. But my view is this, by

8. 37:56 – 39:56

   Ads

   1. SKSadiq Khan37:56

      the way, in London, we've shone a spotlight on this, but there are other police forces around the country where, you know, I'm sure there are other issues where that spotlight's not been shone yet. And so it's really important for us to recognize these as systemic cultural issues across our country that demand addressing.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett38:13

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9. 39:56 – 45:24

   Your hardest day as mayor

   1. SBSteven Bartlett39:56

      and this show, um, before we'd released one episode, which is a remarkable thing, and he gave me a huge amount of self-belief in myself. So thank you Julian Hearn for that. But also thank you Huel for creating a product that has helped me and helped my health stay intact in my busiest days over the last couple of years. Back to the episode. What's been your hardest day as London Mayor?

   2. SKSadiq Khan40:17

      There's been a few. I think Grenfell Tower that I, I still remember the images. I still remember the heat. I went to a lot of funerals, um, that summer was... that summer was hard. I still, I'm still in touch with the families. They're the, um... I see them often. And whenever I see them, it comes back. But Grenfell was just... it was just... and it still b- it b- it still sticks with me because it, it could have been us. It's a council estate. Diverse estate. Lovely community. Those families will never be the same again. Um, and every time I go there, and I spend time with the families, it... you just, you just think of what these families are going through. You know, one family, six people wiped out. Uh, another 11-year-old child who'd won an essay competition, uh, and, you know, when you speak to those who were the judges, she would have gone on to be, you know, this amazing woman. Uh, lost her life in that fire. And so th- 2017 was hard because we also had at the same time the awful fire at Grenfell and a number of terror attacks in London. Uh, London Bridge, uh, Westminster Bridge, uh, Finsbury Park. Um, that summer was hard, you know, uh, because I spent a lot of time... I, I, I like, I li- I, I liked or think it's important for me to spend time with bereaved families. So when I was an MP, uh, when I was a lawyer, I spent a lot of time with bereaved families, my clients. When I was an MP, there was ever, you know, uh, uh, a homicide in Tooting, I would meet the families, ask to meet the families. When I became mayor, I started a practice where whenever there was a homicide in London, my office would write to the family and say, "Look, obviously giving my condolences, but give them my details and meet with the families." And so in... after Grenfell, uh, I, I, you know, went to a lot of funerals, a lot of families, and, and those families' stories stay with you. And I'm still in contact with a lot of them.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett42:25

      That summer, um, June 2017.You, you referenced the London Bridge attacks as well where I think three men in a van mounted the sidewalk, then jumped out with knives and killed, I think, eight people in total in, um, Borough, Borough Market. When you see this happening y- y- you're at home, right? 10:00 PM at night, you're watching the telly, you see this happening. What goes on in your head?

   4. SKSadiq Khan42:56

      So just, just to reassure, uh, people watching, so we do a lot of preparation, a lot of, lot of practice, a lot of planning on those sorts of things. So you see, you try and, and... you're never ready for it, but you try to do what you can in advance to understand it, 'cause I'm not a police officer, I'm not an MI5, um, I'm not counter-terror, but I'm the police commissioner, so I need to understand what you're doing, uh, so, so I can understand your job. And so I, I've always tried to understand what you're doing so I can be a help, not a hindrance. And so when it happens there's a lot of uncertainty in real time what's going on, but the good news is our police and other partners are trained for the phrases, uh, uh, a marauding terrorist, uh, i- is the phrase for it, uh, they're trained for it. And, and, and we learn from other countries when this happens, so, uh, the first time this sort of, uh, terror tactic was used that's well-known about was in Delhi a number of years ago. So our police have learned what's happened there, and so we practice a lot of this stuff in relation to what, what the firearms team will do in this situation, what the police response will do, what my role's gonna be, where I should be and so forth. And, and also you've got to give assurance to Londoners you can't play into the terrorist's hands. Look, what does a terrorist want you to do? A terrorist wants to terrorize you and have panic spread in, changing behavior in a way that's perverse and so forth. So it's really important the response I have to a terror attack, because I could inadvertently be playing into the hands of the terrorist.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett44:33

      Where does emotion come into all of this? You're seeing, you know, carnage, you're seeing death. You, is there a place for emotion in, in all of that?

   6. SKSadiq Khan44:42

      In real time there really can't be. In real time there can't be, uh, for... and that sort of stuff. There can be in, when it comes to a fire in Grenfell which w- you know, which is a different sort of thing, but, but because people look into you to provide leadership, and panic doesn't, isn't good leadership. And so one of the reasons why, you know, I've asked for, and we've had the practice, the preparation, the planning, is to make sure there isn't panic and there isn't emotion, because you've got to make rational decisions and provide reassurance in a cool, calm way. It's n- y- y- you know, you can't go to a COBRA meeting and be hysterical. You've got to be explaining the facts, what you've ascertained, what you're gonna do, what buses are going to be diverted, what tube's gonna be stopped, you know, a- and so forth. A- a- another important thing in London, in that sort of context, Stephen, is what we can't afford to happen

10. 45:24 – 49:57

    Donald trump & your faith

    1. SKSadiq Khan45:24

       is reprisals, right? People wrongly thinking every Muslim's a terrorist. We saw in America post-9/11, you know, somebody wearing a turban attacked and killed because people thought wrongly that he was involved in terrorism in 9/11. So there's that part of reassuring the community, community tensions as well.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett45:41

       After that incident happened, um, Donald Trump came out and made some disparaging comments about, about l- I guess about, about you and London, um, really kind of mocking what you'd said. How d- how do you feel about that? Is it, uh, I mean, it's qu- f- I mean, from my point of view it's incredibly bizarre behavior for a world leader to be taking such a stance after such a tragedy, but how did, how did that feel on that day, emotionally?

    3. SKSadiq Khan46:08

       It was odd. Let me tell you why it's odd. Uh, there's basically an understanding we have, look, there are certain cities and certain parts of the world are targets of terrorists because of our values, because of our way of life, and so forth, and you, so there's a, there's a sense of solidarity. We saw it happen in Paris, uh, you know, w- y- you know, we saw it happen in 9/11, right? Uh, and there are other examples around the world, in Manchester, the awful, you know, events of, uh, the r- Ariana Grande concert and so forth. And so there's always a sense of solidarity, and you'll, you'll see world leaders, you know, mayors and others sending a message of solidarity. And it's unusual, it's exceptional actually, for particularly our closest ally, right, special relationship. You saw our prime min- prime minister's response to 9/11, you know, Tony Blair, George Bush, and you have Donald Trump responding the way he, he does. And l- let's be frank, you know, if the mayor of London wasn't, you know, somebody of, you know, my background, my faith, and so forth, and he didn't have the views he had about people of my faith and my background, he wouldn't have responded the way he did, would he?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett47:09

       Has that, has that played a role in how people have treated you in terms of on the other side of the aisle, uh, people that have political views? Do you think some are... now I'm reflecting now on, uh, much of what Meghan Markle said about how, like, the institutional, her claims about institutional racism impacting the way she was treated by the press and by, by the institution itself. But, but when I think about you being, you know, probably Britain's most famous Muslim, um, you are the mayor of London, do you believe that there has been instances and there are just generally a bias because you are a Muslim yourself, and how does that rear its head on like a day-to-day, month-to-month basis?

    5. SKSadiq Khan47:50

       Well, looking backwards, I mean, I'm sure you've read about the, uh, my first election campaign in 2016, right? M- my faith was used against me by my opponents, uh, you know, y- you can't have a Muslim mayor, links with terrorism, so forth, so forth, for no other reason but because of, let's be frank, my faith, right? Um, and that's why it's so important to win, because had I not won, wh- i- if you're an Asian or a Muslim, o- or whatever, you're thinking, "Hold on a sec, it's not possible to be the mayor of London because your faith. It holds you back." And that's why winning was important, uh, for a variety of other reasons, uh, as well. But, you know, the, the thing about our city is, notwithstanding the prejudices against the religion that I practice, because a minority of terrorists do bad things using the name of Islam, this city voted for not just an ethnic minority-... not just a religious minority, but the religion he belongs to is Islam, which is something wonderful about our city. Not just tolerating difference, respecting, embracing, and celebrating it as well. But I can't escape the fact that, you know, being a Muslim when we're living in a climate of Islamophobia, you know, h- has challenges as well. It's n- n- it's not a secret. So, I'm, I'm not divulging any breaches of, uh, you know, national security. The Christchurch shooter in New Zealand, you know, referenced me in his, in his diatribe. The Finsbury Park terror- terror- uh, terrorist, you know, referenced me, uh, in his terrorist attack in Finsbury, uh, Park outside, uh, the mosque. You know, I'm not g- I'm not giving equivalence to Donald Trump in relation to terrorists, but Donald Trump for a period of time was obsessed with me. And so that leads to, you go to social media, some of the stuff that I get on social media, right? Uh, you go to, uh, some of the far-right groups, some of the stuff I receive there. Some of the, you know, "mainstream journalists" who use me as clickbait, they know if they use my name, it's gonna attract traffic to their social media channel. They, they know that. And I mean-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett49:48

       Because you're Muslim.

    7. SKSadiq Khan49:49

       But, of course, it is, right? Because we know that there's a currency. There's a currency, right? Uh, a- and, you know, and we know for reasons that, you know, uh, you know,

11. 49:57 – 57:07

    Have you ever felt your safety at risk?

    1. SKSadiq Khan49:57

       aren't fair to Muslims, the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority, you know, who live in the West love the West, uh, law abiding and so forth. But yeah, the actions of a small minority means we're all labeled ... w- we're all demonized. And so-

    2. SBSteven Bartlett50:10

       I was reading The Independent, and it was they were talking about the death threats you'd received on social media. You'd come out and talked about some of the comments that people had made to you calling you a, um, words that I probably can't even repeat and I won't repeat, to be fair. Um, but very derogatory, racist, uh, homosexual at times terminology towards you, which oftentimes included death threats. Um, The Independent had written an article showing what those, those threats were. Have you ever felt like your safety was at risk?

    3. SKSadiq Khan50:42

       Yeah, there's been a few times. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, uh, and that's one of the reasons why, you know, I now have police protection, not because I asked for it. Uh, for a year I said no, uh, and in the end, my wife and my chief of staff said, "You've got to take it."

    4. SBSteven Bartlett50:56

       Why?

    5. SKSadiq Khan50:56

       Because t- two reasons. Because if I'm out with my family, their personal safety is being compromised, right? Uh, and that I can't have that. Uh, if I'm out with my staff working, their personal safety is being compromised, and I'm not willing to take that risk either. And so, uh, you know, there'd been specific threats. But the, the problem with police protection is, uh, y- i- it's means you lose your spontaneity. So, you know, I came here by tube, uh, I'm not, you know ... There are police officers on, on the tube with me, right? They ... You wouldn't know they were there, you know, um, and so forth. But they've gotta be with me when I go to a restaurant, when I go to the cinema, when I'm walking my dog, when I'm getting the tube, right? And so, like, it, it, it restricts my ability to just, you know ...

    6. SBSteven Bartlett51:37

       Have you ever been genuinely worried about your safety?

    7. SKSadiq Khan51:41

       A couple of times, yeah. There was a c- there was an occasion where, uh, yeah. There's been a number of occasions. I probably sh- I don't want to give them the credit by making them know that I was scared and worried about my safety 'cause, you know, they will think they can do it again. But, yeah, there have been occasions. Even with police protection, uh, my protect team are brilliant, you know, but I've, I've asked them to, to just, you know, keep a distance 'cause I want th- I don't want them to be next to me like I'm, you know, I'm a celebrity or, or th- the Prime Minister, you know? I, I, I like the fact that I'm a normal Joe, uh, and I try and be as much as I, uh, I can. But there have been times, yeah, of course, there have. Um, uh, as mayor. But there have been times I've been worried about my security before I was mayor, you know, when, you know. And, uh, that's, uh, and that's, you know, you know ... 9/11 was traumatic for a variety of reasons. Thousands of people lost their lives. It was just awful. What it did, though, was it gave, it gave permission of people to treat all of us, uh, uh, you know, in a way that I had not experienced before. So when I was growing up, the P word, the N word, the W word were sometimes used and, you know, my white friends, Black friends and me knew that was, that was like, that was ... We'd g- we'd see the red mist and there'd be fight, right? You couldn't yell and s- but, but it was never about faith. And there ... I'm not saying one is better than the other and stuff, right? But something happened where, um, it became about faith, uh, and the Islamophobia stuff. Uh, and there is still a great sense of solidarity in relation to people who still defend me who aren't Muslims and stuff, right? But what it does is a number of things. Firstly, if you're a mom or dad and you're, and you're, and you're Muslim and your son or daughter is thinking about a career in politics or public life, you say, "You know what? If someone like Sadiq Khan is getting in that sort of stuff, I don't, I don't really want you to get involved in, uh, politics." Or, and this happens a lot, if you're somebody who is s- uh, wants to amplify my social media or be supportive and you do it and then you get this diatribe of hate because you've done that, there's two responses. And nine out of ten people will say, "I had no idea that you received that stuff. How can I help?" And one out of ten pe- person will say, "You know what? Pfff. This is a bit too much, you know. I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm not gonna actually..."

    8. SBSteven Bartlett53:52

       Has it ever affected you personally?

    9. SKSadiq Khan53:55

       Um-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett53:56

        Sleepless nights?

    11. SKSadiq Khan53:58

        In relation to?

    12. SBSteven Bartlett53:59

        Hate, abuse, traumas.

    13. SKSadiq Khan54:01

        I worry about my, my, m- uh, I worry about my m- I wanna make sure my wife and kids are safe. I ma- I wanna make sure they're safe. Um, uh, at the moment, I've got the, you know, the, uh, I- I'm, I'm lucky I've got a police protection team keeping me safe, right? Um, but we, you know, the city hall, you know, receives threats and, you know. So this, we had this r- ridiculous situation where because of the hatred against me, people are writing letters and emails to city hall staff who in the previous 16 years haven't had this. We've had a mayor since 2000. And we've gotta now provide our staff, and this isn't, this is not ridiculous. The ridiculous bit is us receiving hatred. But we've got a duty of care to our staff, right? Our staff are traumatized, upset.... all the rest of it. So we've now got to support our staff in ways never done before. So that kee- that worries me, the fact the impact on my staff reading this stuff, the emails, uh, reading the letters that come in, the impact on my staff reading the social media, the impact on my family reading this, uh, uh, stuff. I- I'm not gonna allow anybody to change my behavior. I will not cower.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett55:01

        That's-

    15. SKSadiq Khan55:01

        But also, I will not let you know if you are bullying me, that I feel it. So even if I was being affected and I'm not, I wouldn't tell the guys that I'm being affected because it gives them, it gives them solace, it gives them comfort. It means they've won. I'm not gonna do that.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett55:12

        But on- but in this kind of medium, I think that there is value in sharing, sharing those, sharing that because people don't realize, right? So it's- it's- it's a world that we don't know, so we don't care about, so we don't, as a society, do anything about because we don't even know it exists. I mean, much of what you've said is news to me. The fact that you're telling me your staff need, I'm- I'm presuming-

    17. SKSadiq Khan55:32

        Yeah.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett55:32

        ... psychological support because of the amount of abuse you're getting, and at the heart of that is your- your religion and your race.

    19. SKSadiq Khan55:39

        That- th- th- th- so often, other things will come into it, but y- you just have to read. Just- just, when you get a chance, you know, it's not good for your mental health, but when you get a chance, you- just have a look at some of the stuff that- that- that people say about me. And it's not all bots, by the way.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett55:52

        But has that ever-

    21. SKSadiq Khan55:53

        It's people.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett55:53

        ... infected you? Because I can tell you, I've had abuse targeted at me and it affected me. (laughs) And I don't mind saying that because I think it's just, it's just the truth, to be fair. So has there ever, has there ever been, you know, anxiety-

    23. SKSadiq Khan56:04

        It's-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett56:04

        ... worries?

    25. SKSadiq Khan56:05

        No, no. It's affected me in the sense that, you know, I- I've spoken to social media companies and- and others about the responsibility they have, about their algorithms, about, you know, employing staff to take this stuff off. You know, my staff, not me, have reported some of this stuff to the police and action has been taken against some of the people who have said some of this stuff because of the incitement elements of it. I think there are issues here about the ease with which, uh, social media allows people with hateful, spiteful, racist, criminal views to have those views amplified, where they weren't 20 years ago. So 20 years ago, 30 years ago, so when I was growing up, right, you could only bully me if you saw me in the playground or if you saw me down the street. You could only call me names that way. You could maybe write me a letter if you knew where I lived. Now you can do it from your bedroom without even being in the same city as me, the same country as me.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett56:51

        Anonymously.

    27. SKSadiq Khan56:52

        Anonymously as well. Um, and some of these algorithms amplify this, and- and some of these people have got big followings, and they all jump on the bandwagon, uh, as well. And so, you know, there is a problem there in relation to how we deal with this stuff. But also, listen, it's happening to... You speak to

12. 57:07 – 59:56

    Suffering during covid

    1. SKSadiq Khan57:07

       a- a- a girl in a, in a secondary school, some of the stuff she now will receive, so, you know, you know, black kids going to school now, in their bedroom on social media, right? Uh, and so, you know, th- th- this is not just an issue for- for me, I- I don't want anybody to feel sorry for me, but it's an issue for-

    2. SBSteven Bartlett57:22

       Everyone.

    3. SKSadiq Khan57:22

       ... for everyone.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett57:24

       COVID, speaking of mental health, I heard you said that during the COVID period, you, you did suffer a little bit with your own mental health. Can you give me a, some detail on what you mean by that?

    5. SKSadiq Khan57:32

       Yeah. Look, before we came on air, we were talking about, you know, returning to the office and stuff. And I'm somebody who... And by the way, you- you don't realize this at the time. So I'm somebody who I now realize thrives on working with people, being around people, uh, on company, right? And I didn't really appreciate that until the pandemic. Uh, and- and I'm lucky. I've got a decent sized home. My- my- my- my daughters came home from university, my wife, we get on really well, we do. Uh, you know, and so we can give each other space and stuff. And so, we've got a garden, we got a dog, but I realized there- there was a... There wasn't a light bulb moment, but I, but on hindsight, I realized I stopped shaving, you know, I, you know, I'd wear jogging bottoms all day. Uh, I- I wasn't as communicative. Um, of course I'd shave if I was doing, you know, morning breakfast shows or- or whatever. Uh, I- I- I didn't have my mojo. I like to think that I can inspire my team. I- I- I... You know, you know, you know it's like when you- you manage people, right? And I didn't... I- I just didn't... I just... I- I... There was something not quite right, and I couldn't... I didn't know that... In real time, I didn't, you know, I- I... But there was something, and I just did... And- and- and on hindsight, what I realized was that there were things I did in my normal life that gave me mental fitness. And we're talking about physical fitness, mental fitness, right? And because I wasn't doing those, I was suffering mental ill health. Now, fortunately, I didn't need to be medicalized, but it meant I had to think about the things I got to do to keep mental... my mental health well. And I struggled, and I- and I... On hindsight, there was a period of time where I- I wasn't on top of my game, uh, because I now am, and because, you know, after a while, I realized this and was taking steps to address that. A- and I realized, I can't work from home in perpetuity. I- I- I need to be around people. I need that buzz, whether it's the banter on the tube, whether it's meeting my staff, whether it's that conversation before I go into the office, the- that team meeting. I didn't realize that's what helps me keep my mental health, but also makes me, you know, be effective. And it's other things, you know,

13. 59:56 – 1:02:30

    Where have you let yourself down

    1. SKSadiq Khan59:56

       sport. I didn't realize how important sport is to me. I didn't realize not playing tennis, not going for a run, not playing football, I didn't realize that... Because I thought I did that for keeping... I thought I did that to keep physically fit, not realizing, actually it's an in- it's an integral part in my mental wellbeing.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:13

       When you, when you think about your- your job as mayor over the last, you know, since you were elected mayor, where- where do you think you've let yourself down?

    3. SKSadiq Khan1:00:25

       Well, that's a good question. Um, I think, I think you alluded to this early on, the- the seven days a week stuff. When you speak to most experts, and- and I speak to lots of... I'm privileged, you know, speaking to you lot, I speak to lots of people who... They say th- they say that's really important to get the balance right in relation to being fresh for the time where you've got to be on.... uh, my response is I'm on quite a lot. Uh, so I've got to use the time when I'm off to make sure I recharge my batteries. And so I think that pace, pacing myself. You know, I've- I've tried to run a marathon as a sprint. And I think-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:57

       What about policies? Things you would, would have liked to have gotten done but you've not been able to get done? A lot of people have leveled the, you know, things like housing and will we be carbon-neutral by 2030. Um, what are the things you look at and go, "Do you know what? I failed there."

    5. SKSadiq Khan1:01:09

       Yeah. Well, I'm not going to answer that question honestly, but I'm running for re-election in, in four hundred and sixty-seven days' time, right, because the others are going to use it against me. But let me tell you some of the stuff we've got, we've done, we've done a lot of stuff right as well as just stuff we did wrong.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:18

       Is that-

    7. SKSadiq Khan1:01:18

       I think the biggest thing I done wrong-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:19

       ... is that real? Is that, like, a real thing where you, you can't tell the truth because someone might use it against you?

    9. SKSadiq Khan1:01:23

       That's the thing. The thing that I've been least effective about, and I've said this before, is, is, uh, by, th- th- the, we've not managed to persuade the government the importance of devolving more powers and resources to London. The government's, th- you know, the g-, my dad used to say that, you know, you should judge somebody by the friends you keep, right? I've got a different, I've got a different saying which is, "Judge somebody by their enemies." You know? And the government don't like me, right? And so the, th- politics is the main reason. And so the government, and I think I've, I've sometimes not h- helped because of my, you know, pugilistic nature. And, and I, I, I, I, I worry h- have Londoners been let down because the government see me as an enemy and not giving London the support they would give if somebody else was the mayor? And so I've tempered, you know, the, since I- I won re-election, I've tempered some of that because I realized I can't allow my, my, my natural adversarial nature and my dislike of the government to get in the way of doing business with the government. So that's, that's the honest answer. But, by the way, I meant what I said about this. You, when you said tongue-in-cheek, "Well, can you not be honest?" Yeah, 'cause I- I'm still in the game, right? So when you ask

14. 1:02:30 – 1:05:24

    Politicians not being honest

    1. SKSadiq Khan1:02:30

       a, an ex-politician questions like that, they'll give you, uh, a- a candid answer. But you can't ex- look, it's like asking, ask, ask Tyson Fury, t- Tyson, "What, what's the weakness in your game?" What, what, you know... you wouldn't do that. I'm not saying I'm Tyson Fury-

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:44

       (laughs)

    3. SKSadiq Khan1:02:44

       ... uh, but I'm still on top of my game.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:46

       It's really interesting, I- I- I, part of me thinks, it's an interesting game, politics, and- and all this stuff because-

    5. SKSadiq Khan1:02:51

       It's not a game, it's not a game.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:52

       Well, you just said you- you're still in the game so (laughs) I'm using your word. But it's an interesting game to me because I don't feel like politicians can ever be truly themselves. They can't truly speak their mind. And I in part, I wonder if that's actually w- acting against them. I think there's almost this political kind of, um, this political, I don't know, philosophy or whatever where you kind of have to be a little bit cagey, you kind of have to never really answer a question, you kind of have to, to get by-

    7. SKSadiq Khan1:03:17

       Yes and no. So-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:18

       Trump was, to his credit, Trump, the thing he did, and I hate to say Trump did anything wrong, but the thing he did, you know what you're getting with this guy. Whether it's good, bad, driven by narcissism, whatever, you have this sense that he's telling you what he thinks.

    9. SKSadiq Khan1:03:31

       I've got, I've got at least 17 responses to that. Let, let me give you a couple.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:34

        Okay.

    11. SKSadiq Khan1:03:34

        So one is, which is interesting, is I think Trump's, one of Trump's tweets that he said against me was hashtag stonecoldloser, describing me, right?

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:45

        Mm-hmm.

    13. SKSadiq Khan1:03:46

        Well, he lost his re-election, I didn't.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:48

        True (laughs) .

    15. SKSadiq Khan1:03:48

        Right? So he's a one-term president, right? Barack Obama isn't. Even George W. Bush isn't. Even Clinton isn't.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:55

        Do you think he's coming back?

    17. SKSadiq Khan1:03:57

        Uh, he's gonna try and come back. Uh, and he's got a good chance. I think DeSantis will probably get the Republican nomination.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:02

        How do you feel about that?

    19. SKSadiq Khan1:04:03

        We'll see about him.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:04

        Him coming back?

    21. SKSadiq Khan1:04:04

        Uh-

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:04

        Honestly.

    23. SKSadiq Khan1:04:06

        Well, I want him to come back and be beaten. See, so I think, I think politics, uh, you know, the reason why I said about, you know, I'm still in the game is because it's a good metaphor 'cause I, 'cause I, I, you know, I learn a lot from sports 'cause I love sports and stuff and- and a lot of leadership skills I get from sports. But let me tell you why, why you're both right and wrong in relation to your, your observation, which is, I think, I- I think is, is, is right and it's wrong. So when you're an MP, I think you're right, I think most MPs have got to be inauthentic. I'll tell you why. Because in parliament, this thing called collective responsibility, a- and I, you've got to stay in your lane for a start. So if you're a transport minister, you can really only talk about transport. Because if I have a view about health, it'll, it'll annoy the Health Secretary. Or if I've got a view about foreign policy or health, in fact, it'll upset the Foreign Secretary, right? Or the Budget. And so you've got to stay in your lane, which is, which is a frustration because you've got to stand by the policies they've got in their other areas, right? So you've got to be inauthentic. Um, but also there's this thing called collective responsibility. So inside the Cabinet, what happens is, if there's a good, strong prime minister, there'll be an argument and discussion inside Cabinet about a policy, and you can have a different view, you can be honest then. But once you reach a view, when you leave the Cabinet, all of you have got to defend that view and be advocates of the view. Th- and that's why you're

15. 1:05:24 – 1:11:05

    What’s labor doing wrong?

    1. SKSadiq Khan1:05:24

       spot on. So- and it reminds me of being a lawyer. I wi- I've got to say hand on heart there were cases I had where I didn't agree with the brief or like it but I had to argue the case. I was the lawyer, right? And the same goes when you're an MP. The difference when you're the mayor or the president is you can be yourself.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:41

       So what's, what's Labour getting wrong?

    3. SKSadiq Khan1:05:44

       Um, I think we have lots of things right, to be fair. Come on, there's no... I mean, uh, I think, I think, you know, when I, when I think about the last two or three years since Keir became leader, we've got a lot of things right. I think the frustration voters have which I think is not fair is we're not putting enough flesh on the detail, right? And there's a reason for that, I explained. So- so- the answer to your question, direct answer is we're not giving enough retail policy, enough reasons to vote La- Labour. Yes, Time for Change is effective but, but, but people would say what Labour's getting wrong is not giving details of policy. My response is, hold on a sec. You've got to peak at the right time. The general election might not be until 20 months away. So if Rachel Reeves, uh, Shadow Chancellor came out with a policy on, on, on the budget, well the economy in 20 months' time is going to be very different from the economy now. How could she honestly be asked to give a tax and spend policy now? Or Keir Starmer announces a great policy, the windfall levy on energy companies-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:38

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SKSadiq Khan1:06:38

       ... Sunak nicks it, dilutes it a bit, so Sunak gets the credit on Keir, your best policy's been stolen. So there's this, and so the point is you've got to peak at the right time and the preparation has got to come in the weeks before-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:50

       That's interesting-

    7. SKSadiq Khan1:06:50

       ... the election.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:51

       ... because the question, question I asked is what's Labour getting wrong?And you didn't answer the, you didn't-

    9. SKSadiq Khan1:06:56

       I didn't explain it's, it's the result, the result part.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:58

        That was, that's, that's the public perception-

    11. SKSadiq Khan1:06:59

        Yeah.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:59

        ... of what Labour's getting wrong.

    13. SKSadiq Khan1:07:00

        Yeah.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:00

        I'm saying, what do you think Labour's getting wrong?

    15. SKSadiq Khan1:07:02

        Yeah, but, but, but, Steve, that's my point. Listen, so, so-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:04

        If you say nothing, that's fine. I just-

    17. SKSadiq Khan1:07:05

        No, no, no, no, no, listen. But my point is this. That, that, that, there's two points to that. One is, uh, I say this with respect and love, you know, if, uh, m- advice I give to Keir, I'd give in private, not in public, right? Is the first thing.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:17

        Okay, fine.

    19. SKSadiq Khan1:07:17

        And secondly, there's a general election in 20 months' time, and, you know, my point about, you know, w- whether, you know, I'm, I'm still in the game is, is, you know, I wanna make sure that privately the views I've got about what Labour's getting wrong are sorted out before the general election, rather than telegraphing to the opposition the things we're getting wrong, so they can, you know, using the boxing metaphor, try and knock Keir Starmer out.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:42

        And that's, but that's kind of similar to what you were saying about the MPs b- having to kind of stay, stay in their lane because they can't be critical of anything else that's happening around them. I get it, it's a party, I guess that's how the system works. But as a, as a muggle, who doesn't really, isn't that interested in... Well, I'm interested in politics, but I'm not heavily engaged with it, so I find it difficult-

    21. SKSadiq Khan1:07:59

        But here's your, here's your conundrum, though, Steven, and it's a good conundrum to have, which is the next general election, probably one of two people are gonna be Prime Minister.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:09

        Mm-hmm.

    23. SKSadiq Khan1:08:09

        Right? Sunak or Keir Starmer. Unless Sunak is, goes the way of Liz Truss and Boris Johnson, right? And so politics isn't perfection, it's relativism. And so you've got to choose between one of these two. There's no oth- there's nobody else, it's not Keir Starmer or perfection, or-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:25

        But do you know what it is, though? It's, it's-

    25. SKSadiq Khan1:08:26

        Go on.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:26

        It's the appearance of perfection, right? Because as you said, you can't-

    27. SKSadiq Khan1:08:29

        Who's perfect, though? In our lifetime, who'd be the perfect-

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:31

        No one is, no one is. But that's what I'm saying, it's the appearance of it. In the sense that, like, you can't criticize Labour. So-

    29. SKSadiq Khan1:08:37

        Oh, I can, believe me, I can. Look, I'll give you, give you examples.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:39

        But publicly, I mean, I mean, if I was to-

Episode duration: 1:29:46