Evy Poumpouras: Real Influence Is Respect, Not Being Liked

1. 0:00 – 2:22

   Intro

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras0:00

      Being an interrogator and a special agent with the U. S. Secret Service, I'm trained in the art of reading people's body language, verbal cues, I mean, even written statements. So you can figure out who's full of BS and who isn't.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      Oh.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras0:11

      So, one of the things I would see a lot of guilty people do is ...

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:14

      Evy Poumpouras, former US Secret Service Special Agent. Who protected presidents, worked undercover, and trained in the art of lie detection, human behavior, and cognitive influence. She's now on a mission to help us all benefit from the lessons she's learned along the way. Evy, I want to go into all of the techniques, the life lessons, the wisdom. So, what are the core components of how to get someone to do what you want?

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras0:35

      Everybody's motivated by something different. What you want to understand is that person's motivational mindset. But the biggest mistake people make is this.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:42

      What about when your boss or your colleague isn't listening to you? What should you do?

   7. EPEvy Poumpouras0:45

      So it's called paralinguistics. Everyone is so focused on what they say, they don't think about the tone, pitch of the voice. But there are simple things you can do to make sure people hear you. First...

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:55

      You spent over years around people like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. Did you learn anything about leadership?

   9. EPEvy Poumpouras1:00

      They're not driven by emotion and the problem the majority of people have is, they bring their feeling into it. You don't want to be an emotional decision maker. It never goes well. Pull back and be objective.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:11

       Evy, when you think back over your Secret Service experience, was there ever a day when you thought the president's life was at risk?

   11. EPEvy Poumpouras1:17

       You know what, I don't think I ever talked about it, but ...

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:19

       And then, what was the scariest moment of your career?

   13. EPEvy Poumpouras1:22

       It was another undercover case. All these things are escalating. Stand back. Do not approach. Any second now, he's going to kill my partner. I pull my gun out and I... That stayed with me.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:36

       Congratulations, Diary of a CEO gang. We've made some progress. 63% of you that listen to this podcast regularly don't subscribe, which is down from 69%. Our goal is 50%. So if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you, and enjoy this episode. (instrumental music plays) Evy, if someone's just clicked onto this podcast to listen because they thought the title was interesting or the thumbnail was interesting, with the understanding that we're gonna talk about the work you're doing in this season of your life and who you're doing it for,

2. 2:22 – 5:05

   My Mission To Unlock People's Potential

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:23

      can you tell me exactly why they should stay and listen to this conversation?

   2. EPEvy Poumpouras2:27

      I think for each person, it's different, but why should you listen? At the core, we're always trying to become something better. I wrote my book, Becoming Bulletproof, and I think the essence of that was I'm trying to become more than. And how about this? The day you think you know everything is the day you become obsolete. I live by that, because I am never at my peak. I'm always becoming more. So if you're looking to become more, and you don't know what that is exactly, then listen.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:01

      All of this information we're going to talk about today, um, the techniques, the things you've learned, the life lessons, the wisdom, where has it come from? What is your ... If I looked at your CV, what would I see?

   4. EPEvy Poumpouras3:11

      I probably honestly came from, probably comes from growing up in New York, daughter of immigrants. I think that there's one aspect there. But I true think, I truly think the majority is when I became a New York City police officer and then I went to the US Secret Service. And I went in young. I was like 22, 23. And so while everyone is out at that age partying, doing whatever, I went into this, this field and I was around a lot of, a lot of other elite performers and thinkers. And I learned so much. Training hum- humbles you. The, the job humbles you. And then also working in the White House, being around other top performers, top thinkers. That really kind of, not kind of, I mean that really ... I grew up there. I grew up in the White House. I grew up in the US Secret Service. That's how I grew up. So I think that those things helped shape me and mold me. Not just training, but also the people I was around. I learned a lot, made many a mistakes, but I had really good, I don't want to say role models, because I don't like that word. I don't look at anybody and say, "I want to be that." No, I want to be me. But I can look at other people and learn and inspi- get inspired from them and see what they do. So I had those examples that guided me. So I think that's the majority of where that comes from and then the practicing of it. The, the flexing that muscle. It's like a workout. You have to keep doing that and being honest with yourself. US Secret Service, nobody wants to hear excuses. Nobody cares how you feel. I don't mean it in a mean way, but they're like, "We have a job to do."

   5. SBSteven Bartlett4:51

      What is the Secret Service? I really want to zoom in on your career experience to understand, um, how the wisdom you have was derived from different sort of seasons of your, um, experience. So, a lot of us have heard

3. 5:05 – 10:43

   How You Became A Secret Service Officer

   1. SBSteven Bartlett5:05

      this term, Secret Service agent. But in, but, but in reality, if I look at the span of your career, what did that involve specifically?

   2. EPEvy Poumpouras5:13

      Okay. So Secret Service, you, the United States Secret Service was actually the, uh, one of the oldest federal law enforcement train- agencies in the US. So they do two things. The one thing that they do is they protect the president. Everybody sees it, right? Everyone says, "Oh, that's Secret Service. That's all they do." No. In fact, even that unit of, of people that you see around the president, it's very hard even to get in there. You don't, you don't automatically go and even if you want to go, doesn't mean you're gonna get it. So you do protection. President, former presidents, vice president, first ladies, even foreign heads of state. So when the Prime Minister of the UK comes to the US, he gets protection, because we don't want him getting assassinated in the US. So all these foreign heads of state. So you're, you're protecting tons of people and it doesn't matter who it is, you're...... the job is, I die for you, (laughs) period. So that's one aspect of it. So there's a very selfless aspect of that which goes against all your intuition, right? Uh, e- because even in law enforcement as a cop or police officer, they teach you, "Hey, if you're getting shot at, you make yourself small, take cover, then engage." US Secret Service is, that all goes out the window, it's, "No, you're getting shot at, you jump in front and then make yourself big, even bigger to make sure the bullet hits you and not the person behind you." So you have to really rewire, like, something that's instinctual. That's protection. The other aspect of it is investigations. They work investigations, fraud, a lot of fraud, a lot of, uh, complex crimes. And today fraud is global, so you'll be investigating somebody in Russia. I remember there was one guy in Russia who was committing fraud here in the US um, who was going into bank- bank accounts of these very wealthy people. So the US Secret Service and home- Homeland and CBP, Customs and Border Patrol, everybody got together 'cause, like, "We have to get this guy." So they figure out, okay, he's in Russia. So the US goes to Russia, says, "Hey, Russia, uh, can you help us get this guy? Can, you know, can you send him over?" (laughs) And so Russia, of course, is like, "No, we're not gonna do it." Uh, to be fair, we wouldn't do it for Russia either, so it goes both ways. So then everyone had to get creative, "How do we get this guy?" So they're like, "All right, we're gonna put a plan together to lure him into another country, a neutral country." So this plan goes into place, it's not my case, and it's probably Friday night. I hear my boss calling from across the way, he's like, "Hey, Pomperis." "Yes, sir." He's like, "What are you doing tomorrow?" And I looked at him, I'm like, "Why don't you tell me what I'm doing tomorrow?" He said, "Can you go to the DR, Dominican Republic?" I said, "Sure, what do you need?" He's like, "You need to do undercover." "Okay, what am I doing?" He's like, "We've got this guy in Russia, we're luring hi- luring him over from Russia to the DR. We wanna get him and bring him to the US. You're gonna go with your boyfriend." I'm like, "Who's my boyfriend?" He's a detective from the L- NYPD. I think he was... I can't remember what grade he was. "You're gonna be his girlfriend, you're gonna give him legitimacy, you guys are gonna convince this Russian to come to the US." I'm like, "Where are we gonna do this?" He's like, "At a resort." I said, "Resort?" I'm like, "What do I have to do?" He's like, "Just make them look legit." "You mean hang out by the pool all day and just drink piña coladas?" He said, "Yes, as long as they're virgin." I said, "No problem."

   3. SBSteven Bartlett8:29

      (laughs)

   4. EPEvy Poumpouras8:30

      And so that's what we did. We spent I don't know how many days at this resort, me and my boyfriend, who was like 20 years older than me, maybe 30. And dinners with the Russian, talking to him, and what we tried to motivate him by is greed. "Come to America, we'll sneak you in and you'll make a ton of money." And because we knew what his motivator was, more money. So he's thinking about it, he's thinking about it. We're having a little bit of hard time with him. Then finally it's the day before we're supposed to leave on our private jet, which is Customs and Border Patrol, and I'm talking to my boyfriend, who's a detective. I'm like, "You think he'll show?" He's like, "I don't know." So we're waiting that morning, it's like five minutes to 9:00, we're about to leave the resort and we're like, "He's not gonna show." Three minutes before 9:00 he rolls up and he's like, "I'm in." So we board our plane, it's our private jet, it's Customs and Border Patrol, everyone's undercover. We get on, there's like alcohol, I don't drink. There's food. He gets on, the Russian. We fly from the Dominican Republic to Miami. We land in Miami, do a refuel. It's all agents there watching but they're all, you know, reading newspapers. Everyone's undercover. We get back on the jet, we fly to New York and then we land in Long Island in a very n- in a remote area. And there's a limo there, our limo, my boyfriend's limo, with... I- I don't drink a- again, I- I- it's like Jack Daniels- Jack Daniels Blue Label, which is like the fancy, I guess, uh, liquor. We get in, we get into the limo and then we drive. So now we got him in the US. We got him. The goal was to bring him to Brooklyn, to the Brooklyn Bridge. And the takedown was I take a photo of my boyfriend and the Russian by the Brooklyn Bridge wearing their Russian hats, 'cause he brought Russian hats, and that was my clear, "Take us down, it's safe." And so I put the photo up, the bridge is in the back. My boyfriend's like, "Welcome to America, we're gonna commit all this fraud, we're gonna steal all this money." The Russian's super happy. Click. Whoof, everybody comes in, we're all in cuffs. That's an example of a case.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett10:29

      If I back up there, you said that what he wanted was more money.

   6. EPEvy Poumpouras10:33

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett10:33

      When you're- when you're trying to understand how to get someone to do what you want to do, w- what are the sort of core components of that? I spoke to, um, Andrew Bustamante, who's

4. 10:43 – 13:10

   How To Get Someone To Do What You Want Them To

   1. SBSteven Bartlett10:43

      the former CIA agent, and he's- he said he spent a lot of time undercover doing very similar work, going to foreign countries, getting people to like him, to trust him, and then to give him something. And one of the things he said to me is, "You need to understand their ideology." He says of all the things that make someone do something is understanding their ideology, which is kind of what you're describing there. I think there's ideology and the other thing. He said this framework, RICE, reward, ideology, coercion and ego, and what you described, I guess, is the reward that that Russian guy wanted. When you're thinking about how to get someone to do what you want, what's the- what's the kind of framework? Where do you- where do you default to? And I'm- and here I'm thinking about business, I'm thinking about sales, I'm thinking about all forms of persuasion, because that's essentially what you had to do. You had to get this total stranger, sounds like a stranger, onto a private jet and to come with you to America.

   2. EPEvy Poumpouras11:29

      So I'm gonna shut up because I need to understand what you want. The biggest mistake people make is they talk a lot. Stephen, if I'm doing all the talking and you're doing all the listening, right, you're learning everything about me. You're learning about what I care about, my values, my belief systems. You're getting a good read on me, and I'm learning nothing about you. There's a myth that people think if I do most of the talking, I have control. It's garbage. You have the power because you've got me now. So what I will tell you is... And, uh, I know of Andy. What you wanna understand is that person's motivational mindset.What are you motivated by? So that is your value and belief system. Everybody's motivated by something different, but I have to hear you and pay attention to you to understand what that is. Everybody's purpose is just different. The example I gave you with the Russian, he's motivated by money.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett12:25

      How did you figure that out?

   4. EPEvy Poumpouras12:26

      Because I-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett12:26

      Was there a certain question or was it just...

   6. EPEvy Poumpouras12:28

      One, his actions showed it 'cause he wants money. And then in talking to him, he had a... I believe he had a wife home, he had a kid home, uh, he grew up a certain way. So you just listen, "Here, have a drink. Talk to me, let me know." If you give people enough space, they will reveal themselves to you, but we're so busy talking, we're so busy making noise because we think everybody needs to hear me, I'm identity, everybody needs to know me, me, me, me. And you know what? Nobody cares.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett12:56

      Is there something in that as well where when you listen to someone, they like you more?

   8. EPEvy Poumpouras12:59

      Yeah, they like you more, because everybody loves to talk about themselves because everybody wants to feel heard. Now, I'll tell you this though. I'm gonna push back on the little bit of the like thing, because even in business people

5. 13:10 – 14:34

   When You Listen To Someone They Like You More

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras13:10

      are like, "I need people to like me, I need people to like me." That is a trek for disaster, because now you're focused on not what your goal is, but "I need to make somebody like me." Those are two different animals. If my goal is to do a deal with you, then I'm gonna focus on what do I need to get this deal done? If my goal is to get you to like me, which is much more complex and much more confusing, and also it's gonna mess me up in trying to figure that out, I say this. Don't focus on making people like you, because you can do everything right and people may still just not like you. Instead, focus on how about I'm gonna be competent in what I do? When I say I'm going to do something, I follow through. When I say I can do something, I actually can do it. When I say I'm gonna be there at 9:00, I'm there at 8:55. In the US Secret Service we had a saying, "If you aren't on time, you're late." So I show you that I'm competent. When you see that, are you gonna like me for that? Yes, you are.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett14:08

      I'll respect you.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras14:10

      Now, there's warmth. Warmth is the other element here. Warmth is, I show you respect. So instead of me trying to get you to like me, how about I just show you respect?

   4. SBSteven Bartlett14:20

      What does that look like in reality, showing someone respect? Is that again the timekeeping?

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras14:23

      I'm listening to you, I show up on time, I follow through with what I say I'm going to do. I'm also open and approachable. I'm also non-judgmental. That's a big thing. Everybody's kind of like throwing

6. 14:34 – 18:18

   You Need To Know About Them And Then You Can Start Asking The Right Questions

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras14:34

      their weight around, "Let me tell you what I think, let me tell you what I think." Nobody needs to know what you think. It doesn't matter. If you're really trying to build a connection with a person, then build it and let them tell you what they think, because now I see the world through your lens, not mine. I always say when... especially I do a lot of keynotes and training for businesses, you don't matter, they matter. What do they want? What do they need? What's important to them? Let them tell you. And then when they tell you, instead of trying to guess how to enter a conversation, because you're coming into the blind, but what do I do? I shut up, I listen, I let you reveal to me what matters to you, what your values are, and then I come in more intelligently into the conversation and I speak to you. You have to know your audience, but you don't know your audience if you're ta- doing all the talking. Everybody's motivated by something different. If you take my motivational factor growing up, I was never motivated by money. My Russian was, greed. That's fair, but I wasn't. Whenever I got a job, I never looked at the pay. NYPD, I had no idea what my salary was. Um, when I went to the US Secret Service, I never once asked them, "What's the pay?" Because I wasn't motivated by that. I was motivated by the mission, by the purpose, but people will show you that. So the recruiter that talked to me probably realized, "This woman never once asked me what her salary's gonna be. She's not motivated by that." Those are little things that people show you. People will show you what they care about if we just hold back, stay silent, ask good questions, and you know what? We're genuinely curious. I genuinely want to get to know you. I genuinely want to understand you. I don't genuinely want to tell you all about me. That's different. And the one factor that's really important is not having judgment, being non-judgmental. When you show judgment to another person, they're gonna filter what they say, they're gonna shut down, they're gonna hold back, because nobody likes to be judged. I would interview in the polygraph room people who committed really horrible crimes, crimes against children. A lot of people would say to me, "How can you sit there and listen to it and not, you know, tell them what you thought or not, like, ream them out?" I was like, "Because my goal was to get information to see were there other victims, how did they do it. I wanna know what they did so that I can make sure that this doesn't happen again and that I do maybe get information so I can get a conviction, and then I also wanna know if there are other victims out there." My goal is not to check somebody and put him in his place, or her, and tell them what I think of them. Those are two different things. Also in the room, my goal was not to get them to like me. My goal was to get them to feel heard, to feel respected, for me to be professional, and I think we bring the wrong terms because it's confusing. If I want you to like me too, think of it this way, then I'm gonna think, "I have to be nice to him. I have to be his friend." And when you become... you're in business, you can be warm, but when you start becoming people's friends, that's when the lines get blurred and we get confused. And in fact there's research done by Susan Fiske and Chris Malone, and they say, "Be warm to people, be open and approachable, but if you're overly nice, overly kind, overly polite, that's when you get rolled." You wanna find that beautiful balance where I'm a professional, I'm warm, I'm non-judgmental, come talk to me, tell me, but at the same time I maintain my authority, I maintain my boundaries.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett18:04

      What about when someone s- compromises your boundaries or disrespects you? How do you react to that? 'Cause I think, uh... I have a lot of, um, leaders around me in my various businesses and I see sometimes that some leaders struggle with confrontation. They struggle with, you know, team member

7. 18:18 – 22:59

   How To Get Others To Respect You

   1. SBSteven Bartlett18:18

      might disrespect them in some way or might disreg- might not deliver work to the right standard, and they might...... struggle with, like, pulling that person in, knowing how to do that and how to address that situation. And the avoidance of that conflict obviously just c- causes a bigger future problem because y- you're setting a new, you're setting a new boundary, right? You've let someone i- uh, je- jeopardize or, um, cross a line, and if you don't... I'm assuming that if in the moment you don't address that, they're going to cross it again in the future. This is really about, like, conflict resolution, interpersonal conflict resolution, and when you've been disrespected, how do you deal with that?

   2. EPEvy Poumpouras18:54

      So, the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to flip it back. What have you done to let people think that they can do that to you? That's the first thing I'm going to say. What standards have you created or what things have you set up to let people think, "I don't have to deliver on time. I can be disrespectful. I can show up late for work"? That's the first thing I'm going to say.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett19:12

      So, I would hazard a guess that I did... I, in the past, set a standard for this-

   4. EPEvy Poumpouras19:18

      Right.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett19:18

      ... or in some way that I showed up in the past.

   6. EPEvy Poumpouras19:20

      That's the first thing I'm going to do. What... Is there something I have done to create an environment where a person thinks that it is okay to do these things? That's first.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett19:29

      Why do you go to I?

   8. EPEvy Poumpouras19:31

      Because I'm the one who sets the tone. For... I- I- p- I- I just interviewed a chief of station, former chief of station, John Franchi. He's former CIA. And he managed a lot of people and a very strong... a lot of strong personalities (laughs) 'cause you've got officers and all these... and different people. And he said to me, "You know what I learned?" He said, "It is easier to be more... have boundaries and be a little bit more s- sturdy and more authoritative in the beginning and then pull back than to be everybody's friend and then try to put those boundaries in place." The latter doesn't work. He's like, "You do the first. You let people know what you expect of them, and then you can pull back a little bit. But you always have to toe that line." So, that's what I'm going to say first, and he's right. What tone have I set in the environment that I'm working that people think it's okay to do these things? That's one. Now, let's say sometimes I have an outlier, I have a person who does these things. As soon as it happens, you have to address it. What people do is they don't address things. They let it go, it's small, and then it happens again, it's small, then again, and then we become resentful. We become pissed. Why does this person keep doing it? Why don't they self-correct? Again, it goes back to me. Why haven't I addressed it? People are afraid of conflict. Conflict can be done in a great way. You have to think of conflict as... think of it as like, I'm competing. I'm... I can speak to you, not raise my voice, not make it ugly and debate something with you. In the, in the White House next to the Oval Office was the Cabinet Room. The Cabinet Room is where the president would sit with all his heads, you know, Secretary of Treasury, Secretary of Homeland Security, and they would discuss and debate policies, laws, and they would compete. One person would say, "I don't like this idea. This is why." Another person would say, "Well, this idea doesn't work. This is why." You have to be comfortable in doing that. Most people are not. They don't understand that you can sit somebody down and say, "Hey, you know, this happened. Can you tell me about that?" I had someone who worked for me and she had made a mistake on something, and so... It was a pretty big mistake, so I- I called her up and I said, "Hey, you know what? This and this happened. You know, talk me through it." And I let her explain and, you know, she said, "You know, I'm sorry," this and that. Uh, "There's a reason why." But the one thing I did is that, because I wanted to rectify it, because I didn't want it to happen again, I was like, "Is there anything I can do to help make your job better so you can be more successful at what you do?" Huh. Because I want to hear, is there something I'm doing or not doing that's impacting her decision-making or the way she sees things? So, it's a twofold, but you also, too, when it comes to respect, and this is a- a whole separate thing you brought up, with the respect part, just make sure people are truly disrespecting you and that's not your ego that feels disrespected, 'cause sometimes people can't take somebody pushing back, and if my goal is to make a great product or business deal or transaction, then everything we do should be in furtherance of that. But what happens is, Steven, people are so afraid of hurting other people's feelings or stepping on other people's toes, nobody says something, and that's worse.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett22:45

      It's sometimes difficult to know the difference between whether this is a violation of my boundaries or this is my ego, because, you know, I think if... m- much of the reason why people won't confront something in the moment is because they start double guessing whether

8. 22:59 – 26:49

   Is It Your Ego Or Have Your Boundaries Being Broken?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett22:59

      they're in the right, they're in the wrong, this is acceptable, this is unacceptable behavior, and that kind of mental debate of, um, "Is that actually acceptable that they treat me like this or that they did this, or am I just being triggered because, you know, of some kind of emotional issue that I have?" And that kind of conversation often results in them taking no action, which means they tolerate that behavior, whether they should or shouldn't, and then it becomes the norm.

   2. EPEvy Poumpouras23:22

      You know, it's interesting. So, I'm a very, um... like, uh, I'm quick too to jump and, like, I don't want to say go into attack mode, but I- I- I have it. I'm Greek, I grew up in New York, in Queens. It's like, it's just on. So, I always have to... my immediate response is like, "What?" internally, inside voice. Uh, I pause and I'm like, "Hang on. Is this person telling me something or doing something that I should hear," right? L- m- maybe they're telling m- I made a mistake and they're trying to help me make something better, or is this person crossing a boundary that I don't want them to cross? So, then I will sit that person down or have a conversation, "Hey, can you tell me about this? What were you thinking when this happened? Walk me through it." But I will tell you, non-judgmental, right? You don't want to show it. It's... I call it the poker face. Just don't show it and let them talk and just see what they're thinking. Most people, as they're talking to you, Steven, they will on their own realize as they talk through it what they made wrong, what they did wrong. Also, you sh- you lead by example. So, sometimes I'll make a mistake, I'll miss a deadline with someone I work with, and I'll say, "Listen, I'm sorry. I was traveling. I own it. Tell me what I need to do to fix it."And what I have found, when I do that, the people I work with, when they make a mistake and I'm like, "Hey, what happened with this?" "You know what, Evy, I'm sorry. I missed the deadline. I own it. I'll fix it." They reflect back what I show them.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett24:41

      Mm.

   4. EPEvy Poumpouras24:41

      So, I think it also shows in the behavior and, and then there are sometimes, Steven, some, sometimes you'll bring somebody in that just should not be there and then you also have to make that hard decision because that one person, it will destroy the fabric of the group. One person can't do that because everybody else around now watches that interaction and they're thinking, "Well, Steven doesn't care." I was like, "He's letting this guy do this, so I can do this," right? It's a... I compare it to like, uh, when I teach. So, as I said, I'm an adjunct professor. I teach college, I teach undergrad crim- criminal justice. First day of class, when they come in, I tell them, "No cell phones." I was like, "And the reason I have you do no cell phones is not because I'm- I want you to respect me or this and that." I was like, "I owe you an education. I owe you an education." I know some professors don't care, but I tell my students day one, "I give a shit, and because I give a shit, I don't wanna see the phone in the class." However, I do something else. It's an influence strategy. I give them autonomy. I say, "However, you can leave this classroom anytime you want to check Facebook, go on Instagram, I don't care. You have that autonomy. But in here, I want you to respect the sanctity of the classroom because you deserve education and I owe it to you," and I set that standard. And side note, there is a video clip that I show day one and you're actually in it. I didn't even know who you were.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett26:05

      Mm.

   6. EPEvy Poumpouras26:05

      There's a clip of you and some others, it's a montage of videos together talking about social media and how it impacts you adversely and cell phones and cell phone addiction and all that, and I actually play that clip. And can I tell you, it resonates with everybody and I have no problems for the rest of the semester. But I set that tone and I tell them, "If I see the phone, you're going home. No hard feelings. I'm gonna pause class and I'm gonna send you home." And then if somebody violates it though, I do it.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett26:35

      Have you had to build up your... how would I describe it, mental fortitude, um, ability to be direct, to look someone in the eye, to stand

9. 26:49 – 29:34

   How To Build Confidence

   1. SBSteven Bartlett26:49

      up straight? Have you had to build that up over time? Because there'll be a lot of people who look at you and see strength and they see confidence and they see conviction and they'll wonder, "Maybe she was just born like that or maybe there's something she did along the way that grew that."

   2. EPEvy Poumpouras27:04

      It's a lot of mistakes and a lot of discipline and it's also the people you surround yourself with will set that example, that tone for you. If everybody around me is a mess or everybody around me, when there's a stressful situation, they fall apart and they're chaotic, I'm gonna be that. Even to this day, Steven, I sit and I'm very aware of who I have conversations with, whose energy I absorb, whose problems I solve. I have somebody I care about very deeply. They're in a situation with someone, a relationship with someone who is volatile, chaotic. They've come to me so many times. I said, "You need to let go of this person." "Oh, I will, I will." They don't. But what happens is they keep coming to me, "I'm having this problem," and I put them on point. I'm like, "I told you what to do. Now you have to sort that out because now what's happening is your stuff is coming into me and I can't have that 'cause this, I have to keep this steady." So, sometimes even with pain in my heart, I'll have to kind of move that person a little bit to the outer part of the circle. Does not mean I don't care or love them, but it means your chaos has to stay there because it's going to bleed into my life. You're unsteady, I'm unsteady. But everybody around me, it's like a, I don't wanna say it's like a calculus problem, but it's kinda simple math. Man, look at who's around you. You are them, they are you. And if you don't like what's going on with you, pause and be like, "Who am I exposed to the most?" Sometimes the people we love, they can be very difficult personalities. But even with them, you could say, "I can manage this. I don't wanna cut this person out," but what do I do? I just move them to the edge of the circle a little bit more. And you have to make sure your core circle is strong and that's something you have to constantly reassess because sometimes in our lives, this person is good here and then maybe two, three years later they're not good anymore. But what we're tied to is that person who we knew back then. Well, they're not the same person now. If you have a shit show around you, it's you because you're allowing it to exist. So think about quietly, "How can I create these changes and quietly make these changes, quietly make these boundaries?" 'Cause these are boundaries internal for you.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett29:20

      It's interesting, I remember watching a video of Steve Jobs talk about how he built his career and he said, in that video, he said, "I built my career by surrounding myself and finding these truly exceptional people, these A players." And the crazy thing is when you find these A players, they like working with other

10. 29:34 – 32:49

    The Different Versions Of Ourselves We Create

    1. SBSteven Bartlett29:34

       A players and it propagates. But the opposite is also true, right? If, when you build a circle of drama, they'll invite more drama. But if you, I look at my own life and I look at my companies and it's almost this crazy sort of process of osmosis. When we have chaos and we have inexperience and we have drama, we end up hiring and inviting more of the same. Whereas when we made those steps to bring in experience, I'm thinking in my early, my early career, experience and maturity and composure and a certain, yeah, a certain psychological maturity, then that's what we ended up bringing more of, more and more in because like-minded people attract like-minded people. And even in the context of our own lives, our circle will just, you know, the fifth person will become the sixth, sixth person, if that makes sense.

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras30:21

       Yes. It's like they rotate out and it's okay. You know what's interesting too? I'm wondering too, because you do this podcast and you really try to... you're warm, you're open, you want people to speak to you, and I wonder if...... people that work with you outside of the podcast or people that work with you in your business see the Steven on the podcast, and they think, "He's so warm, he's so open, he's so, he's so flexible," and they confuse that Steven with the Steven who does business. And there can be different versions of you, Steven. So you could think of it, and I do this all the time, who I am here doesn't mean I'm the same person here. So when I show up to work, I bring in maybe a little bit more energy, a little bit more directness. When I hire, when I hire people, I'll tell people, "Hey, listen, because I want to be efficient at what I do, sometimes I'll be very direct 'cause I wanna just get there. Don't get your feelings hurt. If at any point there's something you're not sure about, please tell me, but because I need to get to there, I may be just be direct. So if you think it's gonna be hard for you, I'm not the person." I was like, "But I will always appreciate you and I'm always here," so I'll sprinkle in every now and then, "Hey, I appreciate you. Thank you for this. This is great." That way in the... So there's my warmth, so that in those moments when I'm like, "Hey, this email you guys wrote, this is, we can't send this out. This needs to be redone." And so nobody's hearing a, "Oh, I'm stupid. She thinks I'm done. I did a horrible job." It's like, "No. The email just sucks. Change it and fix it so we can move on and do better."

    3. SBSteven Bartlett31:45

       Mm-hmm.

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras31:45

       But think about the versions you bring in, 'cause I'll give you an example. Who I am in the classroom is different than who I am on the podcast, is different who I am when I do the news. There are different versions of me, and we have to weigh out those. So if you're going into a business meeting or you're dealing with people who look to you as their supervisor, hmm, a little bit of a different Steven so they feel... It's not what you say to people, Steven, it's how they feel around you, and if they feel like, "He's not taking any of this," they're gonna know it. It's the essence of who we are. It's our ethos, is the Greek word, your, your way of being. We show, we show people in the context of whatever environment we're in the version that we want them to see so that we can get the results that we want.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett32:35

       You spent, um, much of your time around great leaders. If I think about, you know, you were working for about, almost 12 years around people like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and Michelle Obama. Did you learn

11. 32:49 – 35:47

    What I Learnt About Leadership From Working With 4 US Presidents

    1. SBSteven Bartlett32:49

       anything about leadership from those individuals, from observing them and seeing how they conducted themselves and how they communicated? You know, when we, in the UK, we see someone like Barack Obama as a really incredible leader, for many reasons, but I think one of the real standout reasons is his ability to communicate in a certain way which galvanizes people, and we haven't really seen... I mean, one could actually argue that Trump has his own masterful communication skills. It's very different, but it seems to work, you know? Did you learn anything from being around these presidents about leadership and communication?

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras33:25

       So you, you learn ev- you learn something from all of them. To be president of the United States, whoever you are, I mean, that's a feat in and of itself. So they're all, they all have something. So it's interesting. The, the one thing I learned is, um, resilience. You'll be next to the president, and this was every president, uh, former... All of them I stood next to, and you're standing next to them and they're about to go on stage or in a big meeting or they're talking to someone and you've got the news on, and there's some political pundit on the news or channel talking about how stupid they are. "He's a dummy, he's this, he's that." Just shredding them, and he looks at it, "Yeah." Gets his stuff together, gets his speech together, gets on stage, and delivers when the majority of the public would sit there, "Oh my God, I'm disrespected, I'm this, how can they say that?" Pfft, nothing. That was amazing to me. So not only did the US Secret Service make me resilient, but to see somebody just take such heat or hear such horrible things said about them on a consistent basis, on such public platforms, and you have the ability to wake up, walk outside the White House, your head up, get in your limo, go on stage, go do this press conference, and you're like, "It's just gonna happen." There's no, there's no school for that. And so because I was around these, these, these, these personalities, I'm like, "Yeah. Well, if, if he can do it, I can do it."

    3. SBSteven Bartlett34:54

       Who was the most impressive?

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras34:57

       I have to tell you, they all were. There was no one that wasn't. Like, they all had their, their gift. You know, and even Trump. You brought up Trump before. I think what people like about him, he's just direct. He's very direct, and he just lands it. He says what he says, and he doesn't care. There's a, there's something... And I'm Switzerland, because in the US Secret Service, we actually weren't even allowed to talk about if we voted for someone. We were very apolitical, um, and I've always stayed that way. But from a j- an objective standpoint, people just like the fact that he just says it and he doesn't care, and, uh, sometimes I think people envy that.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett35:34

       Did you, did you see how they made their decisions? Did you ever observe them making tough decisions?

    6. EPEvy Poumpouras35:38

       Yes, all the time. You would be behind closed door meetings. You would hear their ability, um-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett35:43

       Give me an example of this. Uh, um, I'm interested, you know, when the stakes

12. 35:47 – 38:36

    I Was In The Room When US Presidents Would Make Tough Decisions

    1. SBSteven Bartlett35:47

       are that high, 'cause a lot of us on a day-to-day basis are making fairly inconsequential decisions, especially in the context of running the most powerful nation in the world. So I'm, I'm interested when the stakes are that high, when you've gotta get Osama bin Laden in a compound in Pakistan or, you know, there's a, there's a terrorist attack, how these individuals make decisions.

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras36:06

       They're not driven by emotion. They're very rational based decisions. I weigh the pros, I weigh the cons, I look at the facts. So you very rarely, if ever, and I could probably say I've never heard a US president yell, ever. I've never heard a US president lose his... himself. You know, when you hear them debate or talk about things, it's a debate. I can look at you, you can look at me, and we're like, "Steven, I, I don't think that this is right." And then you'd say, "Evy, well, why isn't this right?" If we do it this way, this way, this way, this is gonna happen. "Yeah, but Steven, if you do it like that, then what if this happens and these guys die?"... "Well, I don't see it like that." "Well, sir, I see it this way." It's like, "We're gonna have to figure it out." But you're also with people who have the ability to sit and withstand their, their feelings are not so fragile, their ego not so soft, that you can actually have this debate, and that's important for you to have in your circle. Can you d- have these debates with people? I would call them competing. There's, um, two great researchers in the UK, Dr. Lawrence and Emily Alison, and they architect people as animals, and one of the things they talk about is someone who's i- in control and setting the agenda, and someone who's lion. Uh, I'm a lion, and so sometimes we have to bring a little bit more lion in with us. Or somebody who's competing is somebody who's capable of kind of debating with you but it doesn't have to be ugly. I don't have to raise my voice or get in your face to break something down. I can sit there and be rational. The problem the majority of people have is they're so invested and emotional, they bring their feelings hurt, their feelings into it, even something, you just brought up Trump, and you had, like, a little bit of a look, like, "Trump," because everyone's so emotional when they hear that name. Pull back and be objective. It's like, "Let me look at this from a factual standpoint. I'm gonna lay this out, I'm gonna lay this out and let, let, let this lay out." When you can make decisions based on facts and rationality, the emotions go out the window. You don't wanna be an emotional decision maker. It never goes well, because you're not thinking clearly. You're, like, just going with the wave, and it's those moments when you say something you shouldn't say, then afterward, you regret it. "Why did that person get me to say that? I went in with this intention. I kinda got pulled in this direction. This person got me to say that." No. It's always on you, 'cause you're the governor of you.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett38:22

       The first time you got exposed to a president, um, and you spent time around a, a president, were there any things that surprised you, any things that before then you had a sort of misc- sort of ideas of what they were like and how they behaved that you realized

13. 38:36 – 41:07

    My First Day Working For George Bush

    1. SBSteven Bartlett38:36

       suddenly were, like, popular misconceptions that most people believe about presidents and so on?

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras38:40

       I don't know if there's a misconception, but my first time, they call it standing post, um, it was for President, uh, George W. Bush. He's in office. I'm standing post for him somewhere.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett38:50

       What does that mean?

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras38:51

       Oh, standing post is when you're new, you don't get into, like, the close, close circle of the president. It's, "Evy, here's a door, and the president's gonna walk through this door in, like, eight hours from now. We're gonna sweep it, check for bombs and everything, and your job is to stand, watch this door for eight hours, nobody comes through," right? That's it. That's called post standing. You secure the perimeter. It's mundane, right? But you do it. It's part of the job, especially when you start. So I have my, one of my first post standing things. I'm standing by the door, and the head agent, a senior agent's coming around, checking on us, "Hey, you okay? You okay? You need anything?" He's briefing us. And then one agent comes, and he's like, "You're new, right?" I'm like, "Yeah, well, I'm sorta new. I mean, I had started under Clinton, but Bush was my real, I don't know what I, but my real hardcore assignment." And he's like, "Where's your phone?" I said, "It's here, sir." He's like, "Is that thing off or on silent?" I said, "Yeah." He's like, "Don't let Bush hear your phone go off." And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "If he hears your phone go off, you're going home." He's like, "He doesn't wanna hear phones. We want, like, a respectable environment, a quiet, quiet environment. That thing goes off, you're gone. He sends people home." And I was like, "What? Why would he get so upset with the phone?" I didn't quite understand it. Now, I understand it, because if everybody's doing this and distracted, nobody's focused, there are things going on, it's the energy, the vibration. He was trying to be a leader and set boundaries for the environment he wanted. Everybody present, everybody f- focused, nobody's on their phones, no shenanigans. That really stuck with me, and you better make sure I took that thing out, put it all the way down. I was like, "The president of United States is not sending me home." And they're like, "He does it." So though, that's something, like, I always remembered, and it's a, it's a boundary, and it's just something he imposed throughout the environment. I remember thinking, "Wow, the president of United States actually sits and, I don't wanna say control something so minute, but something so small can impact or create this ripple effect of the environment that he is trying to cultivate."

    5. SBSteven Bartlett40:53

       Why did you get that job? Uh, uh, 'cause, uh, when I was reading through the numbers around how many people sorta apply to do the initial training and then how many people ultimately get to

14. 41:07 – 44:16

    Secret Service Training: Only 1% Make It Through

    1. SBSteven Bartlett41:07

       be that, that close to these major issues, it seems like very few people get there. Could you quantify that for me? How many people dropped out during training? How many people passed, and how many people, how, like, rare is it to get to the position that you got to?

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras41:20

       So they spend, like, tens of thousands of dollars, maybe even 100 in- 100K by the time you get hired, on you. So to understand how they select you, once you get selected, like, you've gone through a rigorous process. So for example, I started in the NYPD. When I went in, it was 1,500 of us, and people would just quit left and right, and they wanted you to quit. When I went to the US Secret Service Academy, at that point, it was, like, 54 of us, but you were hand selected, so when you apply, and I think they only take 1% of all applications that they get, which is like it's easier to get into Harvard than it is to get into the service. So out of all the applications, they only, they only select 1% to even look at. Then they decide, "Okay, I'm gonna put this person through the process." Then they make you fill in all this paperwork, Stephen. I can't even tell you the amount of weeks it took me. Write essays, how you're gonna handle problems. Hey, they'll give you problem scenarios, um, and they'll say, "You have this problem. How would you handle this?" And they'll be like, "You've been here. What would you do here?" And they have you write out essays and break down what you would do. Then your paperwork, so they take your paperwork. They go through all that stuff. Then they do background checks on you, criminal checks, background checks. They talk to all your neighbors. Um, when I...... was in the U. S.... When I was applying, I had studied overseas when I was in college and one of the semesters I did abroad was in Italy. They sent an agent to Italy to speak to my college professor in Rome to, to ask him what kind of student I was. So they do such an invasive look into you. You do a polygraph, you take a written test. Uh, it's called a TEA exam. I think they've changed it but it was like, in the US it's like, they call it the SATs. It was the SATs on steroids. That thing was so hard. I thought for sure I failed it. I was like, "There is no way I passed this thing." I squeaked through that. And there was all these things. So by the time you get offered... They give you... It's a conditional offer of employment. "Evi, you've passed everything, so we're gonna let you try to go to training." And then if you pass that, then you go on probation for f- like, I think it's three years, and then you're good, then you're truly in. But they... By the time you get to this process where you're actually going to training because they've dumped so much money in you, th- they want... You're at that point where you're typically gonna get through it because they don't want you to quit because they've dropped a lot of money on you. So, at that point they've really invested in you because they believe that you can meet the standards and be part of a culture that they want. So, i- i- it is hard but they do kick people out. It happens all the time.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett44:02

       What is it about you then? If you reflect in hindsight now and go, "The reason I got through all of that is because I am..."

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras44:10

       I didn't know any better. I didn't know any better not to apply. I didn't know any

15. 44:16 – 46:06

    The 1% Of People That Became Part Of The Secret Service

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras44:16

       better to know that it's t- 98% men. I didn't know any better to think that I couldn't do it. My ni- my, my naiveness as a young woman or girl, that's what helped me get to that job. I didn't think about it. I was like, "Pssh, why not?"

    2. SBSteven Bartlett44:31

       What were they looking for?

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras44:32

       They look for a lot of different things. I will tell you unequivocally, they look for trustworthiness. If you lie in your stuff and they catch you, which later on I became one of their polygraph examiners, and my job became... I became the person to see if you were tr- trustworthy, if you had lied to us. I was like the last layer of defense. (laughs) Um, that was a big thing. Integrity is a big thing, 'cause their mindset was if you can lie about your application form or something that happened to you when you're 19, 20, or something dumb you did, then you're gonna lie to us about anything. 'Cause it, it's like if you can't own up to your stuff, you're gonna make mistakes here and we can't trust you. So integrity is a massive thing. The other thing that really like... They call it BQAs but Better Qualified Applicants, that's what you get when they don't want you, like, "Hey, we have better qualified applicants that... Competitive-wise." Drugs was a big thing. People using, like so drugs played a big role. When people had a lot of usage that would be... Or when I got on it was like barely nothing. Um, that would be a quick thing to get you disqualified because obviously we work crime, criminal cases so if I'm working a counterfeit case, criminal, criminals don't really stay in one lane. They do counterfeit money and they do drugs and they do other things. So, they have to know that you can work these cases and they don't have to worry about you.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett45:51

       You said you were working in... as an interrogator. I, I read that you traveled the world for roughly about eight years for the Secret Service doing, um, polygraph tests and conducting interrogations as a polygraph examiner. You're trying to figure out if people are lying.

16. 46:06 – 48:16

    How Can You Tell If Someone Is Lying To You?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett46:06

       You've got a, a machine in front of you, right, that's telling you, giving you a bunch of readings and data on what's going on physiologically inside their body but then also, you know, in interrogations but as a polygraph examiner you're, you could... You're looking at them and you must have a bit of a sort of hunch based on like pattern recognition when you're looking at their body and how they're behaving. Do you think you can predict or do you think you can now tell if someone's lying to you or if they're being dishonest?

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras46:30

       It happens a lot. When you speak to people you can... I guess you can look at it this way. You can figure out who's full of BS and who isn't.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett46:37

       How?

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras46:39

       One, you feel it. I think your intuition is a huge thing and we, we dismiss it. Two, people show you. You create baselines on people. So if I sit and I speak to someone and the whole time they're speaking, like when you talk, Stephen, most of your ha- your hands are usually here, you'll go on the iPad, you do this, that's your baseline, right? You do a lot of eye contact. I've got Stephen, right? Now, let's say I, I ask you later a question and maybe it's a question you don't like, right? I ask you, I'm like, "Tell me about your employees at work or tell me about the most difficult employee you had and how did you deal with it?" And it's something maybe that affects you, you don't wanna talk about it, you don't wanna be honest with me. You might be like, "Uh, you know, Evi..." And you look down and like, "Well, you know..." I'll see a shift. This whole time I'm talking to Stephen, he's locked in with me. He's got a certain posture. I ask him this question, he just showed me something different. Why? That's it. Why? And then now I know to be curious that when you're done asking or answering my question, I come in with good follow-up questions 'cause you're showing me something ha- is happening here. What most people don't do, Stephen, is they see something, it registers, and they let it go. They don't follow up to, with another question, and then another question, and then another question. You don't wanna be nosy but you want to be curious.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett48:02

       Who's the greatest liar you ever met? Can you re- recall an instance of meeting someone who was just a really great liar?

    6. EPEvy Poumpouras48:09

       I had this one guy. (laughs) He was doing... It wasn't a big scam but he was doing ATM fraud. So you know how you go to the ATMs and you,

17. 48:16 – 50:54

    Who's The Biggest Liar You've Met?

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras48:16

       you, you go, you put in your card, you take out money? So he was going onto the ATMs and he would, he would put on s- on a skimming device. This is a very... I don't want... But a pr- very primitive way to steal money. So he would put on his own skimmer on the ATM so when you swipe your card you're swiping it on his skimmer.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett48:33

       Mm-hmm.

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras48:33

       So it captures all the info. So this guy was just kind of like very low level basic criminal. He's going around to the, all the ATMs in Brooklyn and he's doing this skimming device.So, on the ATMs, they take photos of you. So I've got a photo of this guy. I've got him, and he's got his hat on, I think it was, like, a New York Knicks hat at the time. He's got his hat on, I've got his full frontal. We found the guy, we matched the prints to the prints on the ATM. Boom! I've got my guy, I've got my photo. This is an easy day. I put him in the interview room, I sit him down, "Hey," you know? "I want to talk to you about this." First, I do, like, a, a rapport building. "What's your name? Where are you from? Talk to me." He's super nice, super nice guy. "Yes, ma'am. Okay, ma'am." You know? And he was from another country, I remember. So we're talking, he's looking to me, "Yes." And he's very, very, um, wants to help me. "Yes, I want to help you" and "I'm so..." You know, "Yes, of course." Like, very cooperative, overly cooperative. So that's my red flag. I'm like, "This guy's trying too hard." And, uh, "Sir, I want to ask you about this ATM scam." "Oh, no, I don't know anything. I don't know anything." I'm like, "No, how about here?" And I just start revealing a couple of things, and I've got my photo in my background. I'm like, "I'm gonna bust out this photo, this guy's gonna be like, 'Yup! That's me, sorry.'" So as I'm doing this, I'm hitting a wall. "No, no, no. I'm sorry, ma'am. I wish I could help you. No, no, no." So I got the photo of the guy. Do you know, he showed up to my interview wearing the same hat?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett49:53

       Mm-hmm.

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras49:54

       And I'm thinking, "I'm locked. I'm tight." Pull out the photo and I'm like, "Oh, yeah? Then what's this?" Put it down on the table, he looks at it. "Oh, yeah. That's me. It looks like me, but... Yeah, wow, I can see... No, it's not me."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett50:10

       (laughs)

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras50:11

       It was him. I got gave me nothing, nothing. He w-... I will never forget him, just great liar. Most people waver, this and that. Not this guy, he was locked tight. He stuck to that story, never gave a confession. Thankfully, we had enough to charge him. I mean, it was ATM fraud, but e- not... Looked at me, "I'm sorry." And, you know, one of... one of the things people would do, doesn't, doesn't mean people are always lying when they do this, but one of the things I would see a lot of guilty people do, and he did this a lot, "I swear to God. I swear to God. God as my witness, God knows that's not me." And so we would call it divine intervention.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett50:49

       Mm.

    9. EPEvy Poumpouras50:49

       Whenever you'd hear somebody do that, you knew it's, like, okay, there's a problem. 'Cause it's kinda like you're saying,

18. 50:54 – 52:59

    Signs They're Lying To You

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras50:54

       why do you need God to come in to, to vouch for you? Or sometimes we actually have people come in with Bibles.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett51:00

       Mm-hmm.

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras51:00

       Or, uh, rosary beads. Whenever you saw that in the waiting room, that person coming in, I was like, I... They'd be like, "Don't even poly them, they did it." (laughs)

    4. SBSteven Bartlett51:07

       (laughs)

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras51:08

       'Cause they're trying so hard to connect to that, "I'm a religious person, I would never do these things," and that, those were our little red flags. Of course, I would do it in my interview, but in my back of my head, I'm like, "He probably did it."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett51:20

       What about other things like, um... You're very good at keeping eye contact.

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras51:23

       Yes.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett51:25

       Is there such a thing as too much eye contact?

    9. EPEvy Poumpouras51:27

       It depends on the person. But I think you also need to be you.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett51:30

        Yeah.

    11. EPEvy Poumpouras51:30

        So I make eye contact... Here's the other thing. When I make eye contact with you, I show you, one, I'm confident in myself. I also show you I deserve to make eye contact with you, that I am relevant and I don't need to look away or hide because I deserve to be here and I deserve to be having a conversation with you. Right? And that I matter. That's one thing. And I also convey authority and confidence. You don't have to say anything to people, you show them. I look at you, I'm comfortable to look at you, but I can also show you warmth, right? I can connect with you and engage with you and be present and listen to you. The other thing eye contact does, it also sends the message to you that you matter to me, that I'm here and that I am present with you and that I'm listening to you, that I see you and that I want to try to understand you. So eye contact is wonderful because it does two things: it makes you real-... feel relevant, and it makes me relevant also, that I'm relevant enough to sit here and look at you when I speak. And it's another way to convey my authority without having to tell you, "Hey, you know what? I'm in charge." I don't need to tell you, I show you.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett52:45

        What about, um, body language? You know, 'cause I'm thinking about people that I know that are particularly low in self-esteem and they struggle with eye contact, but then also, sometimes, they, it's, it's almost like they make themselves smaller in their, in their body language and stuff like that. And

19. 52:59 – 1:00:19

    What Your Body Language Reveals About You

    1. SBSteven Bartlett52:59

       I was just thinking, like... (sighs) I, I guess what I'm thinking here is can I trick myself? Can I trick myself and other people into thinking I'm confident if I'm not? It's, you know, because there's all this stuff about, like, the Superman posture where you can kinda make yourself bigger and look in people's eyes. But when I reflect on my early years when I was least confident, for some reason, I couldn't get anyone I was pursuing. So I remember the-... There was these five girls that I, over the, over the course of about, since I was... from 14 to, I'd say, 23, that I was really into. All five of them weren't interested in me. That we would, like... We'd get a little bit f- far down the line, so there was, like, a little bit of sort of initial, um, interest, but then I would always lose them. And I never knew why. I never knew why, but in h-... But then it changed at about 24, and it doesn't correlate to, like, money or success, necessarily. It correlates to my opinion of myself, and it was almost like magic. When I look back and I thought, "Fucking hell, like, I got rejected over and over and over again," and when I got to the point that I actually believed that I was good enough, even though I read all the books. I read up all the pickup artistry books, I read The Game, I read all of these books that had the tips, tactics, and tricks to fake it, but I... But it wasn't until I genuinely believed that I was high value that I had real success with the opposite sex. And so it left me with this feeling that you can read all the tips, the tricks, the eye contact, the body language, but maybe none of it works because there's a thousand other non-verbal micro-expressions that are communicating "you're low value, you don't believe in yourself, you're not worthy" that overpower that, that we can't really control. And the reason it changed at 24, 25, 26, 27 is because I genuinely felt like I was good enough for them-Like, so, you know, this is why I reflect on this idea of like, I know people will click podcasts like this because they want th- the tips, the tricks. They wanna get from A to Z in three seconds.

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras54:57

       No.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett54:59

       They wanna get fr- they wanna get from low confident, low self-esteem, all that, to at the altar with a king.

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras55:06

       (sighs)

    5. SBSteven Bartlett55:06

       And they wanna do it, they wanna know how to do it in the space of this conversation so that they can end this conversation and walk down the aisle tomorrow with their Prince Charming. That's what people want. They want to solve complex things with short, simple solutions.

    6. EPEvy Poumpouras55:24

       Doesn't exist.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett55:26

       I know this because I know that if I title this pod... Like, if you title a podcast Six-Pack Abs in Seven Minutes, people are gonna go, "Blah, blah, blah." But if you titled it Six-Pack Abs in Three Years of (laughs) Work and Diet Restriction, fucking no one's gonna click.

    8. EPEvy Poumpouras55:38

       (laughs)

    9. SBSteven Bartlett55:39

       You know? And it's the same thing for, for here and now. And I'm, I'm often wondering, like, how, how does someone change the core of themselves? Whether it's as a, as a leader, a manager, in a relationship, that very core of you. 'Cause in my life, it was actually just this, like, long, grueling process of building myself. It was at the re- like, retiring from caring so much about actually getting any of these people and just building up this real internal fortress and then everything else took care... The body language, the eye contact, the way I walk into a room, it all took care of itself and, you know... But it doesn't sell books, that. Like, there's, no one's gonna buy that book.

    10. EPEvy Poumpouras56:17

        You know what, though? It is all the little things we do that help us get there. It, there's no magic thing. That's why you're like, "It took me time," and what it was is all the little things along the lines that, that, that came. It's, there's no magic thing. People c- sometimes come to me and they're like, "Evi, what's the secret?" And I tell them, "There's no secret." The change that you want in your life, it's all the little things that you do. It's like, think of it like compound interest, right? I do this, and then I add this layer, and then this layer, and then this layer, and then this layer. It's like the sheets of paper. You put one sheet, it's light, two sheets are light, three sheets, but you put a thousand sheets, now you've got weight. That's how we are. We're layers and we have to add to those layers. There's no quick thing. You know when you know you're gonna get there? When you're sovereign. When you feel like, "I don't need anybody." It's wonderful to have human beings around me and I think connection is, it's, it's, it's wonderful, but if your goal is, "I need someone to complete me," you're done. And I think also, it's so wild 'cause I'm thinking about my youth as you're talking about yours. When I became sovereign, like, where I'm like, "I'm good enough. I'm good as I am."

    11. SBSteven Bartlett57:26

        You become a magnet.

    12. EPEvy Poumpouras57:27

        I became a magnet. People are like, "Oh, I wanted that."

    13. SBSteven Bartlett57:30

        Yeah.

    14. EPEvy Poumpouras57:30

        "I wanna be around that. I wanna be around her." Everywhere. People are like, "How do you..." It's like, because I believe in me, but it took time to believe in me.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett57:39

        And, uh, when you became sovereign, how di-

    16. EPEvy Poumpouras57:41

        Yes, everyone was just like whoosh.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett57:42

        But how did your behavior change, those micro behaviors?

    18. EPEvy Poumpouras57:45

        I stopped chasing things and chasing people.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett57:47

        Yeah.

    20. EPEvy Poumpouras57:48

        I stopped looking for approval. I stopped trying to people please, right, and I just tru- I trusted myself. I also stopped taking inventory from everybody, asking everybody their opinion, and I also, though... But I also ha- I dealt with a lot of rejection. A lot of, like, rejection, a lot of people not agreeing with me. I, gossip growing up. There was a lot... I took a lot of heavy hits, and those things made me resilient. Those things taught me to, like, not, you know, to stay my course. Like, w- you know, and I've shared this before, but w- when I became an agent, I put in for NYPD. My, the community of friends and people I had around me, they thought I was ridiculous. They thought I was silly. I remember after, when I started dating, after I became an agent, there was one guy, a friend of mine's, a good friend of mine's brother. She was trying to hook me up with him. This is before my husband. My husband knows everything, and, uh, uh, so I'm like, "All right," you know. He was a nice Greek guy. I'm Greek. I'm sta- I'm keeping it in the community 'cause you're supposed to. Um, so I'm talking to him and I'm like, "Yeah," and I'm thinking, like, "I went through so much to become a Special Agent with the US Secret Service," and do you know what he said to me? He's like, "So, uh, like, when you get married, are you gonna quit that job and, you know, ditch this? I mean, like, how long are you gonna do this?" Like, he spoke about it like it was nothing, like it was trivial, and I heard that and I was just like, "Wait, what?" I was like, "Dude, you couldn't get into the Secret Service if, like, y- like, with your, like, there's no... Like, with all your might." And when he was like, said that to me, and his job, he owned a diner and he, he owned a, he owned a diner, food. His success was wealth and money, and some cultures, including mine and the community I was in, they, they measured success with money. Like, what I was doing was not successful, but I had the ability to be sovereign enough to, like, not listen. I was just like, "No, that's not my belief system, my moral compass," and, um, I stopped caring. Then I dated another guy who knew I was in the a- Secret Service, and I really liked this guy. It was this Italian kid, and I'm thinking, "He's gonna be so proud of me." I got in and we went on this date and he had just broken up with someone. Steven, like, he was so uncomfortable around me.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett59:57

        Why?

    22. EPEvy Poumpouras59:58

        'Cause I was an agent. They, they, I was like a freak show. It was weird. I think today's a little different maybe at that time, and-

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:05

        Do you think men struggle with strong women?

    24. EPEvy Poumpouras1:00:07

        I think certain men do. I think, I think men who are not confident in themselves, if you're steady, you don't care what somebody else is. You're cheering for them. I ended

20. 1:00:19 – 1:01:00

    Do Men Struggle With Strong Women?

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras1:00:19

       up dating an agent and marrying him. So because my husband's so steady and sovereign in himself, I could do whatever and he'd be like, "You go."

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:30

       You had your first child at 45 years old.

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras1:00:33

       I had my daughter at 40, excuse me, 46. My daughter's 18 months old.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:37

       Your daughter gets to 18.

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras1:00:39

       Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:39

       And she's, she's ju- she just can't get out of bed. She's lazy. She's blaming the world. She's saying, "Listen, uh, s- this is s- this person's fault and this person's fault and, uh, you know, I just can't be bothered." Where do you start?

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras1:00:53

       Well, look, if I've done a good job and my husband and I have done a good job, and again, it's, it's not 100% us, we should have hopefully

21. 1:01:00 – 1:04:37

    What Advice Would You Give Your Daughter Become A Resilient Person

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras1:01:00

       by that point put in certain structures in place to prevent that. I'll give you a small example. I've never put an iPhone in front of her. I have no working television in my house. Because I control what she absorbs, not the internet. And I'm gonna hold onto that as long as possible because I've seen what these, the cellphones... Yeah, I'm a grown-ass adult and I look at stuff and it impacts me and I'm like, "I, I can't look at this." Or I'll unfollow things or I'll go off social, I don't wanna see it. I cover news, I cover crime, child... I cover really heinous things and there are times where I do the news, I do the news, Stephen, I don't watch it. So there are little things that I can do. So up until this point, 18 months, it's a lot more work for me and my family. There's no social device, there's no cellphone, I control that. I kinda look at it, I wanna know what, what's feeding her mind. The way I choose to make her food, I choose what goes in the mind. I control it. And a lotta parents will come to me and I'll tell them, "If you're not comfortable dropping your kid in the middle of Times Square to talk to whoever, then you get that thing out of their hands, because now somebody else is putting ideas in your kid's head." I have no control over that. Zero. And that's powerful. That's one. And especially we see it affect little girls. And again, I'm a grown woman and social media impacts me and the moment I'm like, "Eh," I put that thing away. That's one. No TV in my house because TV is like, when I was a kid, you had cartoons Saturday morning, that was it, and you had to wait for those cartoons. I mean, I was like tomorrow, cartoons. So this instant gratification process that kids have, that's th- that's why you hear like, "Help me get to here fast." She's never gonna learn how to work hard. She's gonna be lazy, she's gonna lay in bed, she's gonna get depressed quicker. She's gonna have anxiety. So I'm doing everything I can to impact those things. They're little seeds, it's little things, so that by the time she's 18, I hope in my heart I have done my best, but I also understand I'm 50%, she's 50%, so as much as I try to help navigate her, she's gonna be her own person and I'm gonna have to listen, understand what her value systems are, what she cares about, but her exposure to them is real- I regulate that. Even the school she's gonna go to. I sit there, I'm already thinking about where I'm gonna put her to school and I don't, I'm like, "Do I want her in a public school? I don't know." I don't want her being like, "Mom, I want a Gucci belt," and, you know, labels and all this stuff. I was like, "I don't want her to think like that." I want her to have a different mindset. I'm like, so I'm creating in my head, "How do I do that?" Another thing I do, super small, I take her to Greece with me every summer. Do you know where we go in Greece? In the village. Village. I'm talking, like, bathroom in the back, hardcore, like, rug in it. My parents grew up in villages. I grew up in that, I lived in that in the summer, June, July, August, September, I was in the village. In fact, the, the bathroom s- was connected to the chicken coop.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:57

       Would you let her fly business class?

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras1:03:59

       No. The only time I fly business class is when somebody else is paying.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:04

       Why?

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras1:04:05

       Because I'm saving my money, 'cause business class is expensive, because I work really hard and I'm okay to sit in the back. So business class, there has to be a really good reason why I'm gonna dish out the money for business class for myself, let alone my daughter. Economy.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:23

       Economy? (laughs)

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras1:04:25

       (laughs) My poor kid, right? She

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:27

       (laughs)

    9. EPEvy Poumpouras1:04:27

       ... could grow up and I'm like, "You can keep all your stuff to yourself."

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:30

        You, um, one of the things we, we were chatting about before we started recording was that your favorite day is when you work out, you go to the gym.

22. 1:04:37 – 1:07:19

    What Do You Work Out Your Mind And Body

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:37

       Why, why is that so important to you? Why is exercise so central to, to everything that you do in your mind?

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras1:04:43

       There's, I think that there's this school of, like, the mind and the body are two separate things and a lot of people be like, "I'm working on my mind, I listen to podcasts," which is great, but th- they don't work out their body and th- and these things live together. I learned this in the Secret Service, like these things were... They're married, so if you're depressed and you're not getting off the sofa, there's a problem. Your body needs help. I work with, uh, I train now with Don Saladino. Even me, with all my experience, like sometimes we need somebody to push us and accountability is a big thing, so I always tell people, "If you're struggling, have somebody be accountable for you." Don, who I work with and I train with, he makes me take a photo of every meal I eat and text it to him. He's like, "I wanna see what you're putting in your mouth." And every time I'm about to have something that I shouldn't, I think to myself, "I gotta send this to Don, so he's gonna police it." So having somebody help you is also a good thing, but your body is your temple. You get one of these. We take better care of our cars than we do this and then we wonder, "Why am I depressed?" Because you have to move this, you have to take care of it. Everything in the US Secret Service was about performance. This is your, this is your home, it houses your mind, it houses your soul, and we treat it like garbage and we give it garbage. When I run and I work out at night, all the stress, unlike any other human being, I accumulate stress, people's angst, uh, stuff coming at me, and I need a way to release it. So at night I go run and I let it out. There's been times in my life, I could think of two distinct times, I remember once, and I don't even remember what it was, but I had such a stressful, hard day, Stephen, I went to the track to run and I remember it was freezing, it was winter, it was snowing, and I was just like, I was just like on the verge of just, like, just pure em- emotion and rage. I started running. (laughs) I was just talking to myself, I was running and bawling, my eyes are bolding, bawling. I looked like a crazy person to the outside world, but I ran it all out, and when I was done, I was back to me. The, the, the physical element of our body is such an important thing and we treat them as two separate entities and, and, and they-... you have to take care of what houses your soul and your mind.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:05

       You strike me as someone that is pretty fearless. I, I, I say pretty because we all, I think we all have fear in us. I think fear is a useful natural emotion, but you s- you're someone that clearly has built up an in,

23. 1:07:19 – 1:12:28

    What Was The Scariest Day Of Your Career?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:19

       uh, a more productive relationship with fear than most people. When you think back of your sort of Secret Service experience, was there a day where you were more scared than another day, i.e. what was the most scared you were during your time in the Secret Service?

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras1:07:32

       Do you know, I had this one scenario and I don't think I ever talked about it. I'm in downtown Manhattan, I'm with my colleague and we're driving to a Secret Service, uh, meeting. We were gonna go arrest somebody the next day and we were going to the briefing with this other department, we were gonna do our, our pre-arrest briefing about how we're gonna go in tactically. So we're driving to this meeting and as we're going to this meeting, we're in downtown Manhattan, uh, somebody runs out of a, it was a jewelry store, this man runs out of a jewelry store and these other people are out there running with him and they're yelling, and they see us and I guess they realized that we were in a police car, even though it was undercover, they just stand out. They're like, "Help, help! Get him, get him!" And the way they were acting you'd think he would've shot, somebody shot somebody. And we can see a- as you see them screaming and yelling, "Help, help," you see this other person running away. So my partner flips on the lights, we start driving and we're chasing this person. Now, I can't see this person. I see their back, they have a hoodie on, they're running. From the posturing of it, of it, it looked like a male and it looked like a, a guy running. So he's running, lights on, we get on the thing, "Stop running, stop running," he's not listening to anything. He goes, he turns the block, we're still chasing him. Then he turns into a, a parking garage. In New York City there, there's these parking garages and they go all the way underground. So he turns in. So we can't go in with the car, we're going in blind. We pull up, we get ourselves out, and as we're going in we're clearing people out but you could also see people running out, I guess they could tell something was wrong, people are leaving and now we're thinking, "Does this guy have a gun?" Like, "What's going on?" 'Cause people are responding very agitatedly to this scenario. We go in, we pull everybody o- out, "Everybody get out, get out." So we go to the bottom level of the parking garage where we believe he's at. Lights are d- it's dark, and we go in, "Police, come out, police, come out." He's not listening. We're looking for him underneath all these cars and then I see him. He's underneath the car and I l- I, I go to my partner, I signal to my partner 'cause he's, like, on the other side, I'm like, "Hey," I'm like, "He's right down, he's right there." Now, we can't see him. My partner's like, "I'm gonna go around." So my partner goes around and he g- he didn't listen to me, my partner, so I blame him a little bit. He went too prematurely before we kind of figured out what what. He goes to go grab him from behind. So now my partner's out in the open, this guy's out there, I see him, I don't know if he has a weapon. We have enough to bel- he ran from us, right? So all these things are escalating. "Let me see your hands, let me see your hands." Nothing. "Let me see your hands. Put your hands out. I can see you. I see you under the car. Let me see your hands." 'Cause now I'm worried he's gonna shoot my partner 'cause my partner's out in the open trying to get to him. "Let me see your hands," so then I pull my gun out and I point it at him. "Let me see your hands. Let me see your hands." And I'm thinking, "Please show your hands," because now I'm in this cross between if does this guy have a gun and if he has a gun, any second he's gonna kill my partner. And I had a choice where I was like, "Do I (sighs) do you shoot because I think he's gonna shoot my partner 'cause he's not showing me his hands and he's fidgeting? Do I not shoot, give him the benefit of the doubt and then he does shoot my partner and now I'm responsible for the death of my partner? Or if he doesn't have a gun, am I responsible 'cause now I just shot him and he didn't have a gun?" And you're doing this, this thing in your head and there's no way to win and it's happening in seconds. I couldn't see his hands, I chose not to shoot, I'm praying that he doesn't shoot my partner, he has no gun, he's not showing his hands and then I'm like, "I'm gonna shoot you. Please p- show your hands, show your hands." And then my partner goes from behind and then the guy's like, "Fine, fine," he's like, "Put your gun away." He's screaming. He puts his hands out, my partner pulls him up from the back and we get him. Then we come around. I'm pissed. I am so pissed. We sit him down, we cuff him, I pull his hoodie out, 16-year-old kid. I search his pockets. You know what he did? He sold one, he stole one of those big gold crosses. That is all he did. 'Cause I pulled out his ID, I checked his ID. I was like, "Do you know I almost shot you for this? Do you know we chased you down for this? You almost died for this stupid cross?"

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:39

       Right.

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras1:11:40

       So we call the cops, they come. That stayed with me because I almost killed an innocent person for what? For nothing. That was probably very powerful. I was afraid. I've been in scenarios where the, the death (laughs) was on my receiving end and I was okay with that, but I wasn't okay with this because I thought, there was a split second where I was deciding, "Do I shoot him because he's not following my instructions, I cannot see his hand, my partner's out there, he could kill my partner, I don't know if he has a gun." I had all these escalating reasons to think that and I chose not to shoot.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:14

       What is your mental health like, uh, g- g- generally and throughout your career? 'Cause people talk about mental health, they talk about anxiety, you know, depression, low moods and stuff. Have you ever experienced what people would describe as mental health disorders?

24. 1:12:28 – 1:17:48

    How Was Your Mental Health During Your Career?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:28

Episode duration: 2:03:28