Poumpouras: How being offended makes you easy to manipulate

1. 0:00 – 2:02

   Intro

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras0:00

      If I'm easily offended, I'm easily manipulated. So if you are that person where you are reactive, reactive, reactive, rule number one: shut the f- (censored) up. Because if you're looking to be respected, you need to manage yourself. But there are times that people are gonna cross you and disrespect you.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:14

      Well, how do you deal with it?

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras0:15

      So there is a guidepost that's taught to the intelligence communities and it really, really helps when you're dealing with people. And so one of the ways you deal with that kind of behavior is-

   4. NANarrator0:24

      Evy Poumpourous is a former Secret Service agent turned human behavior expert.

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras0:27

      From protecting presidents to interrogating the world's most dangerous men-

   6. NANarrator0:31

      She now teaches people how to develop mental strength and persuasive communication skills.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett0:34

      How did they train you as a Secret Service agent to have that strong mental foundation that you have?

   8. EPEvy Poumpouras0:39

      There's a lot of things. So first, one of the biggest things that holds people back is the idea that, "I'm special." You're not that special. For example, I was one of the first responders at 9/11. I watched thousands of people die, and one of the things that got me through it was understanding I wasn't alone in it, and when you learn that you can get through anything. But when you tell yourself, "Nobody knows what I'm going through," nobody can help you, 'cause it's just you going through it. Now, the next thing, what's most important is this tool that we don't pay attention to: our body. And there's this study where they started recording people walking. Then they played it to convicted felons and they said to them, "Who would you pick as prey?" They all picked the same people. They were (censored) . So there are simple things you can do with your hands, your voice, how you sit, and I will tell you everything. But also, the other thing that's actually interesting which you didn't ask but I will volunteer this information are the strategies to tell if somebody's being truthful or not, and it's... That's lie detection 101.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:30

      This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to this show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like this show and you like what we do here and you wanna support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.

2. 2:02 – 3:31

   What Is Evy Doing for People?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:02

      Evy Poumpourous, when you think about the books that you've written, the content you produce, and all that you're fundamentally doing for people, in your own words, how do you summarize or define that? What is it that you think you're doing for people with the content in the books you've written, et cetera?

   2. EPEvy Poumpouras2:18

      It's a great question, and I don't know if I have a clear answer. I think always, I think about, "How am I serving other people?" I always go back to that. I remember even when I wrote my book, Becoming Bulletproof. Actually, my book was supposed to launch right at the height of COVID. I mean, it's when the world was shutting down. And I remember I had a PR person, I had my agent, uh, the publishers. Everyone's like, "Hey, you know, this COVID thing is happening. All the media tour glitz went away. Why don't we postpone the launch of the book?" And nobody was advising me to launch the book. Nobody. Everyone's like, "Drop, don't do it. Don't do it." And I remember I was like, "All right, I need to kinda tune everybody out." And I, I paused and I, I thought to myself, "Why did I write this book? I wrote this book to help people. Okay, so if the goal is to help people, make them more resilient, help them live less fearlessly, the world right now is in a state of fear. So if I follow that principle, then right now I should launch the book." And I remember against everybody's advisement, I launched it.

3. 3:31 – 3:54

   What Do People Come to Evy For?

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras3:31

   2. SBSteven Bartlett3:31

      And when you get DMs from people and private messages, what is it the essence of what they're coming to you for?

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras3:39

      So, I was surprised with my book where people began writing in, "I'm dealing with this problem. Your book helped me find a way out." Or, "I'm dealing with this. Can you give me guidance on how to deal with it?"

4. 3:54 – 5:26

   People Sabotage Themselves

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras3:54

   2. SBSteven Bartlett3:54

      What is the essence of what they're struggling with?

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras3:57

      It's always themselves. It's not the, it's not the world around you. I get it to some extent, but it's almost always we're the problem. We either sabotage ourselves, we get in the way, and we make decisions, or we think, "I didn't do anything." Everything's cause and effect. Any time you say, do, act, or don't act, it has a consequence or an effect to it, and I think sometimes we're so blase about it. In the Western world, the science shows that we actually downplay our faults. When we make a mistake, it's not that big of a deal. We downplay our stuff, and we actually lift up our positive attributes. It's okay but to a point, because when you downplay things and you downplay your involvement, you downplay your choices, you downplay what role you play in your life, then you can't... You, you really are essentially powerless and you're, you're blaming the world. And I'm not saying that other people can't harm you. They will. They just will. I think if people made peace with the fact that there are bad actors out there, some I know, some I don't know, and in pursuit of their self-interest, people are gonna make choices that hurt me, period, bar none, the end. If you can live with that and understand that, you will be okay, because you just have more awareness. In fact, in the, when I did polygraphs, the interview room, after I interviewed so many people, and typically I would interview suspects, um, people that we suspected committing

5. 5:26 – 6:50

   Lie Detecting

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras5:26

      a crime. So-

   2. SBSteven Bartlett5:27

      Lie detector tests.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras5:28

      Lie detector tests. But I was the lie detector, not the machine. A lot of people think you hook that thing up. "Oh, ping, they're lying." No. Like, you sit there. You assess people, you read people. What the polygraph does is it tells you when you ask a series of questions to this person... I hook Steven up. I ask him a series of several s- questions. I look to see what Steven's autonomic nervous system is doing. Heartbeat, right? Does that change? Your electrodermal activity, how much you sweat.... your breathing, the way you breathe. So that's why you have the blood pressure cuff, you have the electrodermal plates which actually look at sweating. You won't... It's imperceptible to you, but the plates will pick up sweating, uh, the sweating activity, the change in breathing. So if I'm asking you a series of questions, I'm looking at how your body deviates during those questions. Uh, you even have sensors, 'cause sometimes people try to beat the polygraph, and so there's sensor pads that we have to see if they're doing certain movements or not. I personally don't think you can beat it. But again, the test itself means nothing. You can't take it to court. You can't say, "Judge, they failed their polygraph." That's not what it's there for. It's there to get more information. And look, who are you... If you're lying, who are you really in judgment of? Yourself. That's why your body's reacting.

6. 6:50 – 9:20

   How Do We Start to Become Mentally Strong?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett6:50

      A second ago, you talked about how victims stay victims, and this whole idea of becoming a bulletproof person because regardless of what we do in our lives, bad things are gonna happen, we're gonna encounter narcissists and people that are looking to take advantage of us. There's a certain mental fortitude that you exude. You, you exude a certain type of mental resilience and strength. What is the founda- You know, and I think that's really critical because if you have that strong internal foundation then all, ev- everything else we're probably gonna talk about today becomes much easier and possible, but without that, like, strong foundation, when the wind blows, the house falls over. So if we think about step one in building that strong mental fortitude, foundation that you have, where does one begin? And especially if we're beginning from a very, very bad place, we're beginning from a place of victimhood, bad things have happened, we're not the most confident person.

   2. EPEvy Poumpouras7:50

      It starts with who's around you. That's where it starts. If you have people around you... A- anybody can break victimhood. Like, anybody can. You can. So I wanna put that out there. Just because you're locked in a place doesn't mean you have to stay in there. You can. But usually, you're... If you're locked in somewhere, it's because the system you have around you, that you also helped create and perpetuate to some degree - we're not completely innocent, we play a role - the system that is built around you keeps you... Think of it this way: it keeps you in jail. So you have to look at your environment and say, "What about my environment is keeping me here?" Usually, it's a person or people. Hopefully it's one and you're not dealing with multiple. Now, it can be family, and that's where, you know, some... w- when you deal with children and you deal with certain, you know, crimes and abuse. I, I, I... You know, I always feel like the, the one population of people that truly have an e- Like, I don't wanna say excuse, but you... It's really not their fault, are kids, because they're just so vulnerable and, like, they rely on you for their, their livelihood. They need somebody to feed them, clothe them, take care of them, or they can't survive. However, if, as you age, right, as you mature, it's looking at your environment: "Who's around me and who is keeping me here? Who?" It... And you know it becomes hard?

7. 9:20 – 12:23

   The People You Associate With Can Impact You

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras9:20

      It becomes hard because you'll have a, let's say, a... I don't... A d- I'm gonna use this term: bad actor in your life. That bad actor can be mom, dad, sibling, brother. It can be anybody. You can love that bad actor, but the choices and the things that that person does impacts you. It makes you more vulnerable. Even if, when you look at cr- Even if you just look at crime, um, they d- They've done a lot of different studies and what they found is even, let's say, if I don't commit crime but I'm around other people who commit crime, I am more likely to be shot than any other population of people. I could not be involved in any nefarious activity at all. I could be clean. But simply because of who I associate with, that makes me more vulnerable to being, uh, uh, to becoming a victim. So that's what, where you start: Who's around you? Now, other really important things: whoever you pick for your companion, if you have one, it's huge. That companion's either gonna raise you up or they're gonna sink your ship down.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett10:29

      And is that, in the real world, best friends, husbands, wives?

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras10:32

      If we're talking... I would say first intimate partner, whatever that is to you: husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend. Whatever that is, companion. That's number one because that's the person... Here's the difference between a c- uh, like, a partner and a f- a friend. Your friend goes home, to their home. You go to your home. A companion or partner, you probably live with them. That means you are so overly exposed to that person and you need to make damn well sure that that person is not contaminating your life. You can still love them, but you can step back and look at, "There's a problem here, that this person's stuff is contaminating my life." And it's a hard thing to do for folks because this is why you're with someone, it's like, "Okay, I'm with Evi, but, you know, Evi is this and Evi is that," and so you start to blend my identity with my behavior. And then over the time, too, you normalize the things I do if I'm a bad actor. "Well, Evi didn't mean it. She's always hot-headed. You know, she's this, but she did all these nice things for me here," and then what we do is we miss stuff. That's why it's easier for you to look at somebody else's relationship and be like, "Hey, problem here, problem here, problem here," because you're not tainted by the emotional aspect of being tied to that person. You're able to look at them objectively. This is why, bar none, it's easy to give other people advice. I can see the red flags and the issues in this person. When you're in it, you can't. It's hard. So I would also venture to say, and-People may not like this. If you're with someone and there are people around you that you know legitimately care and love you, and they're telling you, "Hey, not the best thing for you," I would say please listen, because they are seeing something that you might not

8. 12:23 – 16:11

   Observe Your Opponent, Don't Listen to Them

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras12:23

      be seeing.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett12:23

      Do you think people just tend to know? Like, in their gut, they tend to know, but they justify the person's behavior, and they almost kind of gaslight themselves to some degree. They say, "Well, maybe not. Maybe that's fine. Maybe they are a friend. Maybe they're, they're just doing that for my best interest." Whereas really, that bad actor is acting in their interest and kind of gaslighting you, and then you're gaslighting yourself.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras12:46

      I think it's... One thing is, you don't, you don't go from 0 to 100 overnight. When you're in a relationship or you're with, around people who are like that, i- in the beginning, you don't see it, right? Everyone's got their best behavior. But over time, you'll start to see little, like, sneak peeks, little previews, and it's those previews you want to pay attention to. We like to give people the benefit of the doubt. We listen to the excuses that they give us. And you know, there's this ancient Greek saying that says, "Don't listen to your opponent. Look at them. It will tell you everything." And when I say look at them, look at what people do. I need you to drum out what they're telling you. I need you to drum out their "I am sorrys," because they probably are. They've hurt you, and they are probably genuinely sorry. That's not the point. The point is, when do you wanna learn your lesson, in the beginning or at the end? And at the end, sometimes, it's very, very, very hard. You know, I have a community, and I started it after I did the book, and when people started writing in, I said, "You know what? Let me do this community. I'll call it Beyond Bulletproof, and whoever signs up..." And it, you know, two years in, it's, we have 800 members, and we... A lot of people come in with different scenarios, and they'll come in with... And it's almost always the scenario they come in with, if there's something like this, it's somebody that they're tied to that's just sinking them, sinking them. S- And sometimes, they're the sinker, and they think it's the other person. So, sometimes, you're the bad actor, and you don't even realize it. So, you need to figure out two things. Am I the one doing things that's not just hurting myself but other people, but I've justified it to myself in pursuit of whatever self-interest I have? Or am I tied to someone who's pulling me down? I'm gonna tell you something, Steven. I saw across people who did a lot of different things, some serious crimes, some not so serious. Every single person sold it to themself why they did what they did. We're sellers. I can justify anything to myself if I want to.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett15:02

      They were turning themselves into, I guess, victims of situation and circumstance.

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras15:04

      Why did I do that? Well, you know, good people make bad choices. Good people make mistakes. The problem is sometimes the consequences of those mistakes, they last. But you can't vouch for anybody 'cause you don't know who people are behind closed doors. You don't. And two, anybody is capable of anything at any given moment in time if given the opportunity. If you understand that, you will not be surprised or shocked by anything or anyone. It's not that it's a morbid view of people. It's understanding people are malleable. They're susceptible, some more than others. Some may have a either stronger integrity or more... I don't even think it's integrity. It's just a stronger hold on themselves to say, "Yes, I won't do this. No, I won't do this." Um, and then some people are a bit more malleable. Like, it's easier to get to them. It's easier, easier to manipulate them. It's easier to mold them to do other things. It's easier to get them to sway in a direction. But if you understand that, then you under- you understand human behavior.

9. 16:11 – 22:00

   How Does Steven Pick People?

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras16:11

   2. SBSteven Bartlett16:11

      There's so many things of interest there. I remember, if we go back to the top of your point around your environment and people having a huge impact on your life, I remember reading a study by a guy called Michael Housman and another study done, done at Harvard University where they showed that even if, at work, you sit next to someone who is toxic and does, like, bad practice at work, your chance of doing bad practice yourself radically increases, and in some cases, that's by 25%. In another environment, that's up to 100%. Your, your probability of then getting a disciplinary against you just because you sat next to that person radically increases. And this is, I think reinforces the case that your environment is, has such a powerful and profound impact on you, for better or for worse. And I think the for better part is also worth pausing on, because if you're sitting with and you're around people that are li- lifting you and elevating you and making you believe that the world is malleable and you can do anything, as I've experienced in my own life at times, it, it's crazy that that almost, like, rewires the neurons in your brain to some degree.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras17:07

      How do you pick people? Like, how do you d- differentiate on your own who's good and who's not for you?

   4. SBSteven Bartlett17:14

      Do you know what? This is a really interesting question. Vibes. And everything else in my life, I'll tell you data science or this or here's my framework, but there's some things in life which I think your intuition and your vibes, if you've developed the skill of tuning in enough, is the best indicator. And if you th- if you look back through my career, at 18 dropping out of university, even at 16 not going to school, t- uh, 20, leaving a business that was going really well, and then at 27 quitting a business that was all over the world and about to do this major second IPO and all this stuff, in all of those moments, the most important thing wasn't my prefrontal cortex. It wasn't logic or facts or figures or the money. It was purely this feeling inside me that I no longer wanted to do this thing because it didn't feel good anymore. And in the moment, you look insane. But when you zoom out on a person's life who's driven by that voice inside, like, really driven by it-... you go, "Oh, my God. What a life that they have. Amazing. Look at, look at the girlfriend they have, and the place they live, and the stuff they have, and the job they have. They're so lucky." But I actually think it starts with that, like, courage to tune into that voice inside. So, that's my answer. It's just pure vibes. People for me, if I just don't feel good, I don't wanna go. And then careers I've had this year where I go, "I don't like doing this anymore. That's d- that's me done." And, uh, and there's another part which is on the other end of that, is uncertainty because in all those situations there was really no plan B. There was no good plan B.

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras18:40

      That's so interesting. So, when you talk about vibes, it's your intuition.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett18:44

      Yeah.

   7. EPEvy Poumpouras18:44

      It's your instinct. Um, bar none. And it's when... wh- when I'm around people, like, anybody around, they give off something. And what we don't do is we don't listen to what we feel. You can still do business or talk to someone, but when you feel that, and I do too, I feel my way. Even honestly, even whose podcasts I'm gonna do. I'm like, "I don't know if I like this vibe." Or, "I don't know if I like this." I just feel it.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett19:14

      Mm-hmm.

   9. EPEvy Poumpouras19:15

      I feel like, who do I wanna be around? And even something like, whose podcast do I wanna be on? Because it's... I'm bringing myself into a space, right?

   10. SBSteven Bartlett19:24

       Mm-hmm.

   11. EPEvy Poumpouras19:24

       That person's space. It's like it's all, it's all interconnected. So, it's like I'm choosing what spaces to go into. And if... you're right. If it... you don't have to articulate it to yourself, and that's where we go wrong often. Because it's like somebody comes in, they say hi to you, and im- immediately you're like, "I just... I don't like this." But they didn't say anything to you, they didn't do anything to you. You can't articulate why. And you know what we do? We dismiss it. We dismiss it. "Oh, it's me." "Oh, I shouldn't this..." No. It's... you know what? It's... your... you've got two brains, right? This one and the gut. That's why they call it the... your gut instincts. Listen to it. Always. And I think going back to people who are steady, you were talking about what makes you steady, I think a big part of what helps make you steady is trusting in yourself. You have to trust in yourself. Like, believe in yourself. And when I say that, I mean trust that what you're feeling is, is, is true. Like, listen to it and not let other people talk you out of things. Or being able to say, "I feel this way. I don't know why, but I'm gonna trust it." And almost, if not all the time, you look back and it's like, "I knew better. I felt this. I kinda sensed this. I didn't listen to myself." And if you're wrong, so you're wrong. And that goes back to uncertainty.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett20:46

       Mm-hmm.

   13. EPEvy Poumpouras20:46

       People are afraid to be wrong. Why?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett20:50

       Because of what other people might say about me. Because how I will look to the world. And, you know, from there, from that conclusion, you then jump to, "And then they will reject me, and then I'll be alone, and then I'll be lonely, then I'll die." (laughs)

   15. EPEvy Poumpouras21:06

       (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett21:06

       That's kind of like the logical, the downward step. I always find that interesting. I had this conversation with my girlfriend yesterday. Uh, which is... it's interesting how one belief is actually connected to, like, a string of downstream beliefs that then go to, "He doesn't love me." And, uh, this is such a random tangent, but me and my girlfriend were, like, scheduling our calendar for the future, that we're gonna be apart for a little while. So, um, she wanted to, like, schedule the dates. And I was, like, really busy with something, and so I wasn't, like, paying as much attention to the scheduling conversation, and she got a little bit upset. And I found it so interesting, 'cause the fact that I was half paying attention to the scheduling conversation actually told her that I'm not interested in her, which means I don't love her. And, and, so afterwards I turned to her and I said, "Can you explain to me, like, how I made you feel in that situation?" And we- I went, "Why? Why?" Every time she answered, I said, "Why? Why?" And we got right down there. "You don't love me." And it all started with this little thing at the top. And I think the same here, where

10. 22:00 – 24:18

    Living Fearlessly

    1. SBSteven Bartlett22:00

       if I do something and it goes wrong, there's, like, a downstream consequence w- in someone's subconscious that leads them to think that I'm gonna be exiled from the tribe. (laughs) Do you know what I mean? That's, like, at the root of it. That's why I think fear, you know, when we- you talk so much about fear and becoming fearless...

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras22:20

       Li- living fearlessly, 'cause I don't think you can be fearless.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett22:22

       Living fearlessly. Okay, living fearlessly. What's the distinction?

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras22:25

       Fearlessly means I see things, despite being afraid, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna do my best to, like, live in it, right? And embrace it to some degree. Whatever you're afraid of, if it's something you wanna do, follow it, and then figure out a way to get- to do it. But it's okay to be afraid and uncertain during the process. I don't know, when I'm uncertain too, I'm thinking, "All right. I can figure this out." You don't fail until you stop. I, I look at it that way. Like, even if you're failing incrementally, overall you won't fail until you're just like, "All right. I'm done."

    5. SBSteven Bartlett23:01

       Hmm.

    6. EPEvy Poumpouras23:01

       And as long as you're done 'cause you want to be done, that's cool. But you don't wanna be done because you keep failing or you're confused or you're, you're leaving because somebody- other people are telling you you shouldn't be doing it. It's just because you decided, "I don't wanna be on this path anymore." I think it's- it always has to come back to you. I, like, I've always been in the school of thought 'cause- and I love my family, but they were always telling me to do this, and especially 'cause my parents were immigrant, everything was job security. Get a good job, get a good job. 9:00 to 5:00, get a good job. Don't try to do anything else. You know, 'cause they struggled so much. And so when I tried to do things outside of that element, they were afraid, they were confused. They thought I was nuts. Even when I started in the NYPD, they were not... they were not happy at all. They're like, "What is this? Girls don't do these types of jobs." Uh, uh, even in my community, uh, they, they... you know, I was laughed at. You know, people kind of were like, "Oh, look at Yanni," was my dad's name. "Look at Yanni's daughter. Look, oh, look how silly she's- she is." You know, so this is kinda like those moments where you...... going back to you just have to f- do what you feel, because afterward, you're gonna be pissed off as hell because you listened to other people.

11. 24:18 – 28:30

    Making Decisions Will Increase Your Confidence

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras24:18

    2. SBSteven Bartlett24:18

       And on that point of gut instinct, which you mentioned a second ago, is there a way, do you think, to train and develop your gut instinct? 'Cause you strike me as someone that has a pretty astute gut instinct that you trust, but some people don't. And what ends up happening is they just end up living in regret that they didn't listen to their gut instinct, and they, you know, like, they only find out after the fact, after they've been mistreated. So, I'm wondering if there's a way to, like, cultivate a better relationship with one's intuition and gut instinct.

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras24:48

       Yeah. Stop asking everybody what they think. When I have a really big decision to make, like, really big, I don't, I don't tally people. In fact, the bigger it is, the bigger the consequences, or the bigger the, the pain, or the trauma, whatever it is, I go in, because they're gonna confuse me. That's what you do. You stop asking people, and if you're gonna ask somebody... Let's say it's a health decision. You're gonna go to a doctor, or you're gonna go to someone who has specific knowledge about a decision you are trying to make. You're not gonna go to mom. You're not gonna go to dad. You're not gonna go to your brother. You're not gonna go to people who don't have that, who, although they love you, their opinions are going to send you like a ping-pong ball. That's how you become unsteady. And you can start small. You can start small, and when I say start small, it's start making decisions without running them by anybody. What to eat, where to go, where to vacation, just you can start small and just allow yourself to be the decision-maker, allow yourself to be in the driver's seat. But what we do is we invite people in the car. We're like, "Yeah, yeah. You can drive my car, no problem." They get in the driver's seat. We put 'em in the driver's seat, then we're in the passenger seat, or we might even get kicked to the backseat, and then we're all pissed off, like, "Why are you driving like that? Why are you going that way? That's not really where I wanna go." Then drive the car, and stop inviting everybody in to drive it for you and then be pissed off when they don't take it the direction you wanna go. If you're gonna be pissed off, always be pissed off at yourself, because it's like, "I chose. I chose wrong, but I chose." That is how you build confidence. And, you know, going back to law enforcement, 'cause I teach it, one of the predominant traits that people in law enforcement have is, um, they are, they have high confidence because of one reason: They are, they make decisions. They're good decision-makers, because when you're out on the street and you're dealing with somebody or a situation, there's nobody to look over to and say, "Hey, how should I handle this?" You have to make a choice, and you have to go. Making decisions is going to increase your confidence and your ability in yourself, even if they're the wrong decisions. That's not the point. Be a decision-maker in your life. That is going to move you forward. That is going to increase your belief in yourself and your trust in yourself, and you're gonna get comfortable too. "Huh. I read that wrong. You know what I learned here? I should have read it this way." And so this is when you bring in the vibes and a little bit of tactical strategy because you're less emotional. That's another f- (laughs) that's another hinderance. When you are emotional, you are a bad decision-maker. When you are in a space of emotion, make no decision, avoid, don't text, don't call, don't... I always say just remove yourself and go in. Go quiet. When you can go quiet and be in that stillness of you, it will come to you over time. And you know what's another great thing, uh, when you look at resilient people? They don't have all the answers, and they don't need to have all the answers. I don't have all the answers, but I don't need them to be okay. And this is where you embrace that uncertainty. You don't have to have all the answers, and that by itself is powerful. Like, you don't need to figure it out. You don't need to know what to do right away. Leave it. Sit in it. Be in it. Then when it's time, you move through.

12. 28:30 – 34:45

    How to Stop Others From Controlling Your Life

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras28:30

    2. SBSteven Bartlett28:30

       You're gonna end up getting a lot of unsolicited advice though, you know. This is, we all do. We get, when we're making, trying to make those big life decisions, we'll have someone who we didn't even ask them, but people will be chipping in, telling you what to think of yourself. And then there's an element almost, I guess, of being able to develop stronger boundaries in your life so that you can keep the outside world outside.

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras28:51

       Okay. So then how about you stop telling everybody your business? Why do they need to know what you're thinking about doing here or there? Why? Because when you open your mouth to share things, you're gonna get advice. So this goes back to you. Do I open my mouth or do I stay quiet, 'cause if I open my mouth and I start talking, people are gonna start sharing? And so when people are like, "Oh, they don't respect my boundaries," you're the one who offered it. If you want to create boundaries, you start with them. I don't share. Or, like, if I'm, like, for example, I'm working on a project or a deal, nobody knows until my deal is done.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett29:32

       Why?

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras29:33

       I don't know how it's gonna go. I don't want other people's opinions. I'll have the opinions of whoever I'm dealing with specifically in a deal if it's a project, right? I'm gonna talk to them, but I don't want other people confusing me. People confuse you. Good intentions, but when you've got too many voices in your head, that's why you can't trust yourself 'cause you've got all these other voices. You can't hear your own. So I know if I share something with someone, they're gonna share their thoughts, and maybe I don't want them. I stay, I, I will tell you, I usually stay quiet until I'm ready to ve- reveal something. Also, I'll stay quiet until it's either done-... like it's happened. Because so many times you'll do something and it falls through, and it, you're like, uh, uh, you don't wanna have to explain it to other people. It's like, "Why do I need to put myself in that situation where we're always talking?" I think talking, talking, talking, talking, although I think communication is good, but sometimes it's over-sharing and over-putting our stuff out there. How are you gonna have boundaries when you yourself violate those boundaries? Like, you just make yourself like open borders, everybody come in. If you're a bit more methodical with who you share what with and why, I think that that's okay. But when you're, like, literally, like, tallying everybody, even if it's, like, what job to do. Like, for example, there's a woman in the c- the community I have, and she's trying to figure out what career to do, and she was kind of like, "My mom says this. My dad says this." Grown woman. And, and it was coming from a genuine place, and, "I like this, but I don't like that," and she was ping-ponging everywhere. She's like, "Evi, what's, uh, uh, d- you know, can, can you, can you share something with me?" I was like, "Stop." I was like, "Stop talking to everybody. Why are you telling everybody to give you advice?" I was like, "I want you to think about how insane what you're doing is. You are going to another human being to ask them what job, what career you should do, a job that you're gonna wake up every morning to get out of bed to go do day after day after day, and you're tallying and pulling other people, who are not gonna be doing that, you're gonna be doing that, on what you should do. Do you see a little bit of the ridiculousness of how you are asking somebody else? You're the one who has to get up every morning and go do it."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett31:57

       If you say that to her, and you ask her to justify why she's doing that, sh- she might say, "Well, I'm just not sure. I just wanted to hear other people's opinions. I just don't know."

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras32:09

       You can. She can. You can do that. But if the question is, "How do I learn to trust myself?" You trust yourself more by listening to yourself more and asking other people less. That, that, that is how you get there.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett32:24

       Clearly she doesn't trust herself, though.

    9. EPEvy Poumpouras32:26

       No. And then maybe just the circle around you. It's also to, you know... And I don't know if you've been able to do this. Over the years, slowly, I've also accumulated people around me. Ove- it takes time. Where there are trusted people where I can go to for specific things if I need to because I like the way they move through life, uh, I, I think that they, they handle themselves well, maybe they do well in business, they're thoughtful, I like their character. And so over time, you can also, I don't wanna say accumulate, but you can kind of start to pull folks like that in. It takes time because people are gonna come into your life in, in different moments, and when you find those precious gems, keep them a l- a bit close, and then you can start to accumulate a, a circle. And it's not people you go to every day. It's just people that you can pick up the phone, say, "Hey, Steven, it's Evi. Can I run something by you?" "Sure, Evi. No problem. What do you wanna run by me?" You can create those too, and I, at least for me, I've been able over time, slowly, 'cause it's not gonna happen overnight, and then sometimes people come into that space, and sometimes you say, "Mm, I'm gonna push you a little further out. It's not working out anymore."

    10. SBSteven Bartlett33:39

        That woman in that example, what does she ultimately need to do? 'Cause I can imagine in her world, she's not certain about any path, so she's got 20% certainty about going in this direction, 30% certainty about going in that direction apparently, and maybe 40% about going in that direction, and then the rest is just a little bit of confusion and procrastination and fear. What does she actually have to do?

    11. EPEvy Poumpouras34:03

        She just has to make a choice and do it.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett34:07

        B-

    13. EPEvy Poumpouras34:07

        Pick one and do it.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett34:08

        There's no, there's no perfect choice, Evi.

    15. EPEvy Poumpouras34:11

        But there isn't. There's no, there's no, there's no way to know how it's gonna pan out. There's no way to know. Just choose. Choose something. Choose something. And even if it's wrong, you, you know, find peace in, like, "I chose. It was wrong, but you know what? I'm not stuck here." That's the other thing. Like, you know your- you can change your decisions. Just because you choose something, it doesn't mean you're stuck there. We have the ability to get out. You do. You can find ways to get out and say, "I made a wrong choice." It's okay. I- i- you also have to be okay with it.

13. 34:45 – 36:50

    Making Decisions

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras34:45

    2. SBSteven Bartlett34:45

       The interesting thing within our personal lives that I think causes such procrastination versus business is in business, especially if you're in a startup, if you don't make a choice, or even, like I imagine in the Secret Service, like, if you don't make a choice, there is an immediate consequence. Whereas in your life, you can kinda meander for a year, three years, five years, and just sit and procrastinate, whereas, like, in a Secret Service situation when Trump is being shot at, (laughs) meandering for five years as a Secret Service agent, I imagine, isn't possible.

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras35:14

       So that is something... What will help with that is, it's something called, it's called instrumental. It's called sensemaking. It's understanding a person's motivational mindset. An instrumental person in certain jobs can yield more instrumental people. This is where I am doing something where I am task-oriented. This just happened, so I have to respond this way. I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do this. Like, I'm looking at the overall, what is my next step, then my next step, then my next step? When you are instrumental, you are non-emotional. "I'm not in the emotion of it." So although, like if you bring up, uh, a protectee getting shot, right? Although it can seem emotional, yes it is, but in that moment, at least through training, it's shots being fired, jump in front, cover, shield, evacuate. You run through those things. That's being instrumental, right?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett36:06

       Which is having, like, a pl- a framework for what to do next.

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras36:08

       You're functioning. You're, you're being tasked. You're task-oriented. "I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this." You have a business decision to make. Let's say something bad's happening in the business. "Okay, how do I stop this hemorrhaging? I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this." That's instrumental.On the flip side of that is something called identity. When I am identity, I am, "Oh my god, I can't believe this is happening. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I'm confused. I'm really upset about this. I can't believe I'm finding myself here." Now I'm in that purgatory space of not doing anything. I'm also emotional, so I can't think clearly and I'm not able to make moves.

14. 36:50 – 40:00

    How to Make Progress in Your Life or Career

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras36:50

    2. SBSteven Bartlett36:50

       So how did they train you as a Secret Service agent to be, have that instrumental mindset?

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras36:54

       You do.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett36:55

       How?

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras36:55

       Action. Action. Everything's action. Make a choice, make a choice, make a choice. Move. Go, go, go. Do you know what's interesting? Everything was about movement. Don't be still. Even when you're getting shot at, don't be still. They actually teach you to run in zigzags. It's actually really hard to shoot someone if they're not perfectly still. I mean, we would shoot paper targets. You miss. You're stressed out, you're emotion, you're looking at this guy shooting, that person shooting, am I shooting like shit? You know, 'cause everyone's looking at each other's scores and, you know, if you don't shoot well, they're gonna be like, "Oh, I don't wanna take you out on the next raid with me."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett37:30

       (laughs)

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras37:30

       Right? So you've, uh, you, you've got that adrenaline rush. It's a hard thing to do. Um, but they teach you, like, "Hey, if you're getting shot at, don't sit there like a dummy. Move, run. And while you're running, run like zigzag. Throw people off. Move." And I, and I've taken that premise of always being kinesis. Kinesis is a Greek move. Kinesis, move, move. Always move. C- create momentum no matter how stuck you feel, and I, I follow this actually in my own just, in my own life. Just move. Don't sit still. I'm not saying don't grieve, don't be sad, don't feel. It's okay. But don't put yourself in a place where you're completely stagnant, 'cause you, that's where you get stuck and you don't move and you get comfortable and you become afraid. If you can just create movement, "I'm gonna create a little bit of movement. I'm gonna make a good decision here, and then another one, another one," if you can just stay in kinesis, movement, you'll be able to move through whatever it is you're going through.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett38:30

       I remember I interviewed Jocko Willink and he said pretty much a very similar thing to me. He said in the SAS or the, the Navy SEALs, when you're lost, you're not gonna get any new information if you just stay where you are, so you have to just move. Even if you don't know which direction, movement generates information which then can inform a better decision. And you're kinda saying the same thing there, which is if you're stuck, you need to just get into kinesis. Make a decision, start moving, and then you'll learn at least something.

    9. EPEvy Poumpouras38:59

       You learn something, even if it means reaching out to someone. It's just, do something that's helping you create some type of progress. When, when you don't move, when we don't have kinesis, like, this is where you get stuck in that emotional depravity of like, "I feel horrible. This is happening." Like, if you can find ways to move out of your problem, as bad as it feels, don't bathe in it. Like, don't take a bath in it. Feel it, but like, to a point. And you know what else too? You also don't have to figure it out. You don't have to figure out why did this happen or why did this person do it. Sometimes there's nothing to figure out. Sometimes it just is. Sometimes there's brilliance and freedom in just letting go and saying, "This happened. I don't know why it happened and I don't need to know why, but I can figure out how I need to move forward." Kinesis. "How am I gonna move out of this? What do I go to next?" There's noth- Sometimes the more you sit and you analyze the stuff, the more pain

15. 40:00 – 43:13

    Reliving Your Pains Makes You Feel High

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras40:00

       you put yourself through. You're rethinking, you're retelling, you're reliving. And especially if you're reliving things that somebody else did to you, like the pain and, you know, you ever have those moments where you start to relive, "I shoulda done this, I shoulda said this"? Do you know it actually activates the same part of the brain that's activated when you do cocaine?

    2. SBSteven Bartlett40:19

       So it becomes addictive?

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras40:20

       Yeah. Makes you high. Think about that. As, even though it's negative feelings, you're like, yeah, you're having this whole thing happen and it's like, I always look at, I want, you know, I always look at it as what I am doing leading me to a, to the path I wanna go to? If it's not, then I try to relinquish. I'm like, "Listen, it's okay to feel bad, but you will feel less bad if you can keep that momentum going."

    4. SBSteven Bartlett40:44

       Being stuck and in that place of victimhood or fear or procrastination, do you think that victimhood is addictive?

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras40:52

       I think it becomes a habit. I don't think most people want to be there. If you ask anybody, nobody's gonna say, "Yeah, I love it." But what happens is it becomes a habit, and it's a pattern of behavior and a pattern and a way of thinking that you become used to.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett41:10

       What's the reward in that habit cycle then?

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras41:13

       I don't know if there's a reward and I don't know if people think about it. They just get stuck and they repeat the same thing because they're afraid and uncertain of if they change it, what will happen? You know, you'll see this in, um, in relationships where, you know, and it's not just domestic violence but, but you'll see it in these really imbalanced relationships where you will see one person who's very dominant and one person, the dominate person, it'll be somebody who's very high power and control, setting the agenda, but not in a good way. And then you'll see another person who's very low power, weak, submissive, avoidant. The reason why that relationship works is one is here so the other has to be here. They both can't be high power 'cause they'll clash. And so that's why when you see a lot of these imbalanced relationships or severely imbalanced when it's domestic violence, and it can be man towards woman, woman towards man or same sex, you will see that it's one person who's up here, high control, and then the other person goes submissive, avoidant. This person down here is just trying to keep the peace. "I don't want conflict. I don't wanna upset them. I don't wanna set them off." But what you do is you go deeper and deeper and deeper, and the more you try to keep the peace, the more you're submissive and avoidant and uncertain, what does the other person do?... the higher up they go, because you just helped create this imbalance, this further spread of power in the relationship. They become louder, stronger, dogmatic, demanding, rigid, and then, but that happens over time, and then you find yourself in this space where, like, "How did I end up here, and this person's here?" And then that's one of those examples of where another person keeps you literally suppressed, so how are you gonna trust yourself and your voice and make good decisions if you have such a, an individual around you? And that's another thing that keeps the, a person pushed down and suppressed.

16. 43:13 – 51:54

    Sexism in the Secret Service

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras43:13

    2. SBSteven Bartlett43:13

       As a woman Secret Service agent, when you first went into service, I imagine there was a sort of institutional sexism? Just thinking about that era, that time, where people would look at you and think, "Well," you know, "as a woman," there wasn't as many women in the Secret Service, so, "Maybe she's someone that I can push down. Maybe she's someone who I can make the odd comment to. Maybe I could create a po- power dynamic where I'm above her." Did that ever happen? And if it did happen, how did you deal with it?

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras43:46

       So that's the, like, it's, the truth is that stuff does happen, right? And it, it could happen. I remember Barbara Pierce Bush went to Tanzania. I'm the assistant detail leader, which means I was like the head person, and then my boss from headquarters came, but he wasn't there yet, and we were having a briefing.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett44:05

       And you were protecting the Bush family.

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras44:06

       I was pro- protecting, I was the, uh, assistant detail leader for Barbara Pierce Bush, so George Bush Jr's daughter, one of the twins. It's Jenna and Barbara. I had Barbara. So she went there to do, like, philanthropic work, aid, and we were going to some really, like, uh, not safe areas, right? A lot of vulnerabilities, a lot of concerns. So I set up the briefing. I'm the person i- in charge and, and, uh, agents are coming from different parts of the country to help supplement, some, some agents I've never met. So I remember one guy walks in, and he's like, "Oh, hey. Hi." So this is in the hotel room where we're having the briefing, and no one's there yet. It's just him and I. "Hi," you know? "How are you?" "Uh, okay." He's like, "Hey, you know, the, the intern staff room is down the hall if you wanna go, you know, find it. I can show you." So when he saw me, he made an assumption I was staff, intern, you know, I was part of the, the entourage but not an actual agent. And so I'm like, "Actually, no. I'm, I'm Ev- I'm the assistant detail leader here. Uh, you know, thank you for joining. What office are you from?" So now, could I be pissed off? Sure. Did he make an assumption based on what he saw? Sure. Those are moments where, like, I don't care.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett45:19

       Really?

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras45:20

       No.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett45:21

       0%?

    9. EPEvy Poumpouras45:22

       No. Who looked like a big dummy afterward? He did, not me. It does become annoying, but this is, like, where you gotta be like, this is where you have to pick your battles. You can't fight everybody. Oh my god, Steven, imagine how exhausted you'd be if you fought ev- you fought every buffoon that came your way.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett45:38

        Some, I mean, some people literally s- have designed their life to fight buffoons.

    11. EPEvy Poumpouras45:41

        Right, and so, I'm busy.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett45:43

        (laughs)

    13. EPEvy Poumpouras45:44

        I have things to do. Think about how much time and energy they take and waste from you, and that's, talk about a life of being stagnant and doing nothing because you're too busy fighting everybody. Choose and fight strategically. So if it's something I need to fight, fight. I'll give you another example. After September 11th, the, the U. U.S. Secret Service office was in the World Trade Center, 7. So when the towers collapsed, we lost our whole office. So immediately, the Secret Service New York office, they were trying to find a new home. So they found office space in Brooklyn, and, you know, obviously in a place like that, like, the office space needs to be designed a specific way for, like, what we're doing. Again, nondescript, nobody needs to know we're there, but you're designing it to look and feel a certain way to get things done. I'm an agent now. I get called into the SAC's office, which is the head boss, and he says, "I need you to design this office for me. Work with headquarters, get us nice photos, make this look like o- our new home. Um, you know, we're, we have a lot of briefings here. I'm gonna put you in charge of this. Can you do this?" "Okay. Yes, sir." There's 250 agents in the office. I get pulled for interior design duty, HGTV. Here we go. So I said, "All right. No problem," so I did. I'm like, "I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna own it." And I remember some of the women were like, "Aren't you...?" I'm like, "No worries." I was like, "I'm gonna do the best damn job I can," so I did. Took me months. I made a nice office. I was done with it. Fast-forward. That same boss puts out an open bid, new polygraph position. There's only two polygraph examiners in the New York office, 30 throughout the whole U.S. Secret Service. A spot comes open, which is rare. "Everybody put your name in, whoever wants it." Everybody puts their name in. People senior to me put their name in, and then one of the senior, uh, polygraph guys was like, "Why don't you put your name in?" I'm like, "Dude, no way. No one's gonna confess to me. They're gonna see me. They're gonna high-five each other. I'm never putting my name." He's like, "Put your name in 'cause you don't know." I wait till, like, the last half hour before they call it a bid closes, and I throw my name in. I'm like, "It's not gonna happen." Guess what? Week later, I get a phone call. "Come to my office." Same boss sits me down. He's like, "I had X amount of people put in, maybe 30 or so people." He's like, "I picked you." And he said, "Do you know why?" I said, "No, sir." He's like, "I gave you that assignment to design the office and fix it, and at no point did you bitch or complain or say anything to me, and in fact, you did a great job. Thank you. This is your assignment. Put in."

    14. SBSteven Bartlett48:29

        I need to understand here something, which is, on one hand, I've gotta be protecting my boundaries, right? Don't let people fuck with me. On the other hand-... "don't make someone's prejudice my problem, and don't bitch and complain." Are these mutually exclu- are these, like, two separate ideas, or is it like context dependent? Because, you, you know, if, if I'm protecting my boundaries, my boss calls me in and tells me that I'm gonna be doing the interior design job, potentially because I'm a woman, is not protecting my boundaries in that situation going, "Fuck you," and calling him out?

    15. EPEvy Poumpouras49:04

        I could have. I could have, but I assure you I would not have gotten that position. I also knew somebody has to do it, so he happened to pick me. Maybe he likes my sense of style, maybe not. Maybe because of the way I look, maybe 'cause I'm a woman. I don't know. You know what's funny? He didn't know this. I actually studied fine art in college.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett49:23

        Hmm.

    17. EPEvy Poumpouras49:24

        So-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett49:24

        (laughs)

    19. EPEvy Poumpouras49:25

        (laughs) So I was, I wasn't that appalled. And it, I also looked at, you know what too? I also looked at the opportunity because now I got to work with people in headquarters that I never would have gotten exposed to and, like, all the historic archive stuff. So there was a part of it I was like, "Oh, this is kinda cool." Now, could I have argued it? I could have, but then I guess you choose. I chose not to, and long term, it worked out for me. There's also times where, I don't know, Stephen, like, you can't care so hard. People are gonna slight you, and like, h- you choose how much you're gonna care about how much they slighted you. And I have noticed that the more I care, the more of a detriment it is to me, and the less I care, the better I perform overall. All I'm saying is just choose strategically. Don't choose just 'cause you're pissed, 'cause if you're doing it 'cause you're pissed, now you're being ruled by emotion. And any time you make choices by emotion, you're gonna make bad choices, bar none the end.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett50:29

        For a lot of people, the action they take following a situation like that is so quick and almost, like, so automatic, that they end up-

    21. EPEvy Poumpouras50:37

        It's emotion.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett50:37

        Yeah, that they just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then they get f- and they might, like, relax later and go, "Fucking hell. Why did I say that? I've ruined my life."

    23. EPEvy Poumpouras50:43

        But that's why I said it. That's why you're easily manipulated. If you are the person, and please know that I was that person, if, if you are that person where you are just reactive, reactive, reactive, you're gonna sink your ship completely. It means you're not thinking through things. It means you are just, you have no self-regulation. I self-regulate. Don't, don't get me wrong. There's times where I'm like, "I'm gonna burn this bridge down all the way and I don't care." I'm good with it so long as I am choosing clear-headedly, "I'm gonna burn this bridge down, but I'm choosing to do it. I'm not doing it reactively. I'm not doing it because I've lost control. I'm doing it 'cause I made that choice. I'm gonna burn this bridge and this relationship, and I'm 100% okay with it." Do it, but make sure you're doing it.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett51:34

        Not the monkey inside your brain.

    25. EPEvy Poumpouras51:35

        Exactly.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett51:37

        How do I train the monkey inside w- my brain over time? 'Cause you said you didn't, y- you used to be less regulated, right? You used to make more emotional decisions, and over time you've come to be able to make those very rational, like, prefrontal cortex decisions.

17. 51:54 – 56:57

    How to Make Rational Decisions

    1. SBSteven Bartlett51:54

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras51:54

       And vibes.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett51:55

       Okay, yeah.

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras51:56

       And vibes. I shut up. I started to shut up. I just started to be quiet. When I'm pissed, I go quiet. I don't say anything. Like it, when you, the, I think that's the biggest thing. I learned to be quiet. I just learned to shut my mouth.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett52:12

       Not to reveal your upcoming book, but I know that one of the 100, um, principles in that book is called...

    6. EPEvy Poumpouras52:18

       100 Rules of Engagement. Shut the fuck up, rule number one. And the reason why is, not to be vulgar, it's because it helped me so much, because the more you talk, th- just when you talk in general, the more you talk, the more you reveal, the more people know. The more you solicit, the more people share with you, the more that you get confused, the more indecisive you are, the more, the more, the more, the more. And when I learned to stop, self-regulate, not to shoot my mouth off because I was offended... You can only get offended, first of all, if you allow yourself to get offended. There are times that people are gonna cross you and disrespect you. Yes? Yes. But like, how often can you be offended? And also, there's times like, who cares? Like, I don't have to have everybody's respect. That's another exhausting thing. I have to, "You need to respect me, and you don't disrespect me." He disrespected me, and I'm Greek. It's a big thing, like, ugh. But that, that's gonna wear you out, and like, and you don't need it. There were times where maybe I worked with people who I could tell I was not wanted. I remember once NYPD, and I started off in the NYPD, NYPD Queens Narcotics Unit. Sorry, guys. This is a true story, and, um, I was sent to partner up with Queens Narcotics to take down this guy who was doing child porn and counterfeit money in addition to drugs. So I get sent to the task force. This is a hardcore task force within the NYPD. I show up with agents. I'm the lead agent in charge, and I show up and they were not happy to see me, not at all. And I remember walking in, I'm s- I don't know how it is now, I'm sure it's not, but you know, women's calendars, centerfolds all over the place. I walked in. Personally, I didn't care, but I was just like, "I think there's gonna be a problem." Not me them, them for me. And, um, I could tell that they didn't want me there. They started leaving information out of briefings. They would ignore me when we were at, doing the search warrants, like really tactical things that they were doing that were wrong, and this was a ring of people that we were trying to take down. So the first time, and then plus my team's seeing this, so I don't say anything. My team doesn't say anything. My team's all guys, and thankfully I had, like, really respectful agents with me. But these guys are seeing it. They're seeing how they're treating me by proxy them.No one's saying anything. They're disregarding us. Um, and the reason why we were asked to be there is because we're experts in counterfeit. We're also experts in child porn. So we do the arrest, it's done, but then there's a subsequent arrest that happens, and we show up for that. Same thing, like literally ignoring you like you're not even there. We do the arrests, we do the prints, and at one point they even leave the precinct and we're like, "Where did they go?" They just completely ditched us. And all right, I remember going back to my group leader, uh, Carl. And, uh, I go to Carl. I said, "Hey, listen. If these guys call again..." 'Cause there were more arrests. I was like, "Don't send me out there." And he's like, "Why?" I'm like, "It's very clear they don't want me there." I said, "I don't wanna fight, but I'm not also gonna sit and stand my ground and put myself somewhere I don't want to be. I don't like the way it feels. I don't wanna be there. It's bad for the team. Send a dude. Send a dude. Don't send me back out there. I won't go."

    7. SBSteven Bartlett55:44

       Is that letting them win, though?

    8. EPEvy Poumpouras55:47

       No.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett55:47

       'Cause they'll be at the office with their posters up of these women and they'll be like, "Yeah, we got rid of her."

    10. EPEvy Poumpouras55:52

        Knock yourselves out. I... This is also where you choose what circles you wanna be in. It was a circle I chose I didn't wanna be in. You can't change a mindset and culture of people. Like if... That's also... Also, think about it. It wasn't one person I was up against. It was the whole group. So now I'm gonna come in and bulldoze my way into this, what, group mentality? I think this is where I really learned to navigate, and you have to be good at it, like where to fight, where to walk away from. And I was like, "I don't need to be here. I don't need to prove anything to anybody. I've earned it." I'm like, "Ha- half of you yahoos couldn't become a special agent if you had, you know, applied." Like, it's a hard thing to become, to go from a cop to do that. So with that, I was like, "No, I don't need to..." And it's actually the only time I ever did that, 'cause it was that egregious. It was egregious, and I thought it was a danger to me and also a danger to the other special agents. Like, I felt like I had a responsibility, and I'm like, "If I'm working with the Queens Narcotics, Narcotics Task Force and they're not communicating, they're withholding information, someone's gonna get shot." I was like, "And that's on them, not on me, but I'm also not gonna partake."

18. 56:57 – 1:01:49

    What to Do When People Are Not Treating You Well

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras56:57

    2. SBSteven Bartlett56:57

       A lot of people will listen to this and they'll relate to the feeling of being subtly disrespected on a recurring basis by individuals in their life, whether it's their romantic partner, whether it's a colleague at work, whether it's someone else that they interact with. And so many people I've s- I've seen this in some of the questions I get sent in, are keen to understand how to deal with someone that is disrespecting you. You know, 'cause I, I guess there's a train of thought that would say when they disrespect you, you kind of argue and engage and try and shout them down and try and win. But if you are being subtly disrespected in your own life by someone, what do you recommend that they do?

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras57:37

       Okay. Who is it? So if it's my partner... So I'm married. I have a husband. He's another special agent. If he does something where I feel disrespected because I care so deeply about that relationship and the integrity of that relationship, him, I might argue it. Not to argue, but because I wanna keep a good, healthy relationship. Now, don't get me wrong. Ha- being in a relationship, you also let a lot of things go, right?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett58:04

       Mm-hmm.

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras58:04

       So it's, it's again, what am I willing to let go? What's... I don't wanna say silly, but what's, like, really not important? And where d- you know, what's like, "Hey, I wanna address this with you, and this is why"? So for me, that takes hierarchy. Who your partner is, I, uh... and we talked about that before. Bar none, that is really such a crux of how well you're gonna do in life. They're either gonna raise you up or they're gonna sink you down. So that matters, and I will do my best not to be belligerent when I'm having (laughs) that discussion, right? Now, everybody else falls to the side for me, 'cause, because I understand w- the value of being with a person and you're with that person 90% of the time, and that's an investment in that relationship. But aside from everybody else, mostly everybody else, I can let it go. I always look at are you worth my time and energy? I'm busy, so do I need to stop and do I need to address you?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett59:07

       Okay, so let's play out a scenario.

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras59:10

       Okay.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett59:10

       And in this scenario, I'm gonna make us peers. So we work together, right? We work together in a call center. This is actually something that happened to me when I was in the early sort of phase of my career where I was working in call centers, so I was, like, answering phones and doing that kinda thing and selling things on the phone, et cetera. And I remember being sat next to someone who was, like, subtly disrespecting me all the time. And at this point in my life, I wasn't in any position of authority to do anything about it. I've actually... It's funny 'cause that one instance has completely shape- shaped my leadership perspective and my real deep belief that I have a responsibility as the founder of the company or CEO to go in search of and clamp out all disrespect in an organization that is happening beneath me. Because you're often powerless at work to do anything about it, and I felt that. I couldn't stop this lady that sat next to me disrespecting me because sh- I wasn't her boss. So now that I have the responsibility, it's a big thing for me that, "Dude, we don't employ assholes and dickheads." And, uh, uh, there's actually a recent example where someone was in our business for a total of a couple of hours. And actually, in my previous company, there was a guy that walked in. During his initiation, he went like this and walked off. Day one of his job. He put both middle fingers up after his, like, initiation where... Initiation, we basically ask them questions, ask them what they're into, who they are. Put both middle fingers up and walked off. It was the last time anyone saw him in the building, and it... Because it was a, it was a sign of a character issue that would, would lead to further disrespect. So if I'm sat next to you at work, Evi, we're colleagues, and you, you come in in the morning and I go, "Oh..."... first time you've been on time, and then you s- you do some work and I go, "Not bad, considering your standard." And then you're in a meeting and you're talking and I just interrupt you. And you submit a piece of work and I g- and I look at it and I turn my nose up. And you hear me talking shit about you behind your back when people aren't there, me criticizing your work and how you are and your delivery. How are you gonna deal with that situation?

    9. EPEvy Poumpouras1:01:13

       So I would deal with a specific situation, not the whole thing. I would pick a moment where I have tangible facts, and I would say, "Can I speak to you for a moment?"

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:22

        Okay. So we're in a group. We're all on the calls on, in my call center-

    11. EPEvy Poumpouras1:01:25

        I'm not gonna do it in front of other people.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:27

        Okay. Fine. So this is what happens. I, this isn't actually what happened in my life.

    13. EPEvy Poumpouras1:01:30

        Did you do this? I don't think you're having-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:31

        No, no, no, no, no. Fuck me, I didn't do anything. I just wanted the money. (laughs) I was trying to just survive. Couldn't feed myself, so I wasn't gonna l- open my mouth. But I'm, we're in a call center and I've disrespected you for a while now. And then I turn to you and I go ... and you, you've just come off a call and I go, "You know what? You should have, you could have done that better. You, you didn't close that properly, Evie,

19. 1:01:49 – 1:08:03

    Being Bullied in a Work Environment

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:49

       and I, you know ... Uh, next time y- y- you do a call and you get stuck like that, just speak to me and I'll take the call off you. Just tell them that your colleague will handle it," and I carry on with my day. What are you gonna do in that moment?

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras1:02:00

       I might not do anything. Well, it also depends, because you said, "I didn't do anything. I was trying to feed myself." And that plays a role, like, where are you?

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:07

       Mm-hmm. I think part of it also is I was very young and I didn't have the tools to address that situation. The problem is, the situation made coming to work a misery.

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras1:02:17

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:17

       And this version of myself, irrespective of my financial situation, would have. And even today, because even today, okay, I have money, I have security, but I'm still playing at a certain level where there's disrespect potential. I actually have a really good example that I could never share of, of someone that I work with who's extremely successful, and we work on a particular project together. And I found out that this was happening, and they were basically threatened by me because, for a variety of reasons. This, this is what I was told by an, uh, an intermediary. And I chose a moment when I heard that they had just disrespected me within a short period of time, and I walked in, in front of a, in front of a group of people, and I said to them, I said, "I, I heard what you did out there in the hallway when I wasn't there, and, um, in the future, if you wanna say something to me, I'd really appreciate it you said it to my face instead of behind my back." And it's, and it's crazy what happened. It's crazy what happened. This really big, tough, powerful individual turned into a toddler in front of my eyes. "Oh, what? No, I didn't say..." And I left the room. And then it never happened again.

    6. EPEvy Poumpouras1:03:24

       But I, I think that that's okay too, but you also came to that place, like ... It's like, I think each person has to choose, and if you choose to do it, you can do it. Now, the fact that you did it in front of people, but y- what you did that was smart is you were able to speak. As m- upset as you were, you were able to speak and articulate yourself clearly.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:43

       Yeah.

    8. EPEvy Poumpouras1:03:44

       And it had just happened, and you were able to say, "What just specifically happened here." That's the difference, 'cause sometimes it's like, "I feel like you treat me this way," or, "I think you did this," or, "It seems like that." Those are very ambiguous. So if you're gonna confront someone like you did, you did it the smart way, 'cause you picked a specific moment. You said specifically, "Out in the hallway, you just did this. You said X, Y, and Z. If you wanna say something to me, f- always feel free to come say it to me." That's why I also think it worked, when you were also in a place where you feel like you can do that. I think that that's okay too, but you also took a risk and you're, like, uncertainty, like, "I'll burn this down." You're like-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:22

       Yeah, because on that project, I'm not the one that's got the power. I can still be fired from that particular project.

    10. EPEvy Poumpouras1:04:27

        But you chose.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:28

        Yeah.

    12. EPEvy Poumpouras1:04:28

        You're like, "Let it burn."

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:29

        Yeah, 'cause I don't, I don't wanna be anywhere where I'm miserable.

    14. EPEvy Poumpouras1:04:31

        Exactly. You made a ch- but you made a choice. You're like, "Let it burn." So you under- you, at some point, understood like, there's a, there's a consequence here. And it's interesting, 'cause bullies, they're not ... They, they flex. They're not very powerful. You know, I had ... Oh, gosh. We're, like, swapping stories here. I had one scenario where I inherit a case. You know, Evie, John's gone, he went to the president's detail. You are now taking John's case. Okay. So there were some things that were incomplete in John's case with, with regard to evidence. It was admin stuff. The admin paperwork for evidence hadn't been filled out yet. I got the case, I pushed it to the side. I worked on it. I would update it, but I hadn't done the admin thing with it. Fast-forward, I'm leaving 'cause I just got bumped to a different position, and so the new agent that got it, I'm like, "Hey, here's the case." I said, "There's one thing that I didn't get to do, it's the admin thing for the evidence." I'm like, "I can help you go through it," blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, uh, the group leader I had at the time, wh- which was a peer, in front of the whole group one day, he's like, "Hey, you didn't do this admin, you didn't file the evidence for whatever," blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's doing this in front of everybody. You know, "You need to take care of that and that's on you, and I don't care that you inherited the case," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm watching this happen, and I assure you, all I wanted to do was, like, reach over and lunge him by the neck, but I didn't. I left. I was pissed. I let it ride, my anger ride, and later that day, I went and I found him after I calmed down, and his name was Jeff. I'm like, "Hey, Jeff, come here. Let me talk to you." And I took him into the stairwell, 'cause we had these secure stairwells, and I said, "Listen. Earlier on, you brought up this case. You're, I'm s- 100% right. I didn't finish the admin paperwork for the evidence. I will take care of it and I will help the new agent do it." I said, "However," I was like, "If you ever wanna address me," 'cause he was very insulting when he did it, he did it in front of the whole group to flex. I said, "If you ever wanna address me, don't ever do it like that again." I go, "Because I'm addressing you and I'm actually giving you more respect than you showed me in there before by pulling you into this stairwell."I said, "So if you wanna address me, feel free to pull me to the side and speak to me. But what you did out there, there's no need. We're peers, and that's it. You may be the group leader, but there's no need to talk to me like that." I go, "Have the decency to address me the way and the, with the courtesy that I'm giving you, 'cause I coulda easily tore your head off in there, but-"

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:09

        And he was a peer?

    16. EPEvy Poumpouras1:07:10

        He was a peer/group leader. So we were the same, but he happened to be a group leader-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:14

        Okay.

    18. EPEvy Poumpouras1:07:14

        ... which meant he oversaw me. I said, "So next time, there's not gonna be a next time." It was immediately, "I'm sorry. You're right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry." Now for that scenario, I wanted to have long-term good relationships, because this person was in my squad. And so that's why I handled it like that. Never happened again. So I guess, like, there's different ways to do it. With Jeff, I preserved his dignity, because if I woulda shot back, he woulda shot back at me. I woulda shot back at him. And there's a point too where I'm like, I'm, I don't wanna look like an... I don't wanna sit and fight and look stupid. I, I wanna be in control of, like, how I manage an environment. And me yelling back or confronting someone sometimes may not be it, especially if I think I can keep myself composed. And in that moment, there was no way I was gonna be composed.

20. 1:08:03 – 1:12:48

    What I Learned About Bullies as a Secret Agent

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras1:08:03

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:03

       I think you're right. Now I reflect on the incident that I described to you, I don't actually think I was that composed. I didn't shout. I was very articulate, looked them in the eyes without breaking eye contact. But actually if I was really composed, I would've done what you did, which is I would've said, "Please can I have a private chat with you?" And I actually think it would've been more effective and would've shown more of my sort of fortitude to have that conversation privately. The other thing that you said which I thought was so important in the context of what we're saying is you do have to point at a specific incident, because these individuals, they are masters of gaslighting you. So if you don't have specifics, "That just happened in that location, and it made me feel like this, and you said this," if you let it ride and you come to them with vibes, they will so easily twist it and-

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras1:08:48

       "What are you talking about?"

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:49

       "Yeah, what are you talking about?"

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras1:08:49

       "I don't know what you mean. No, that's not what I meant." That's why you have to come with very specific stuff. But, you know, even if you said you were pissed when you did it, if you were still able to articulate yourself, you were, I think it's okay to own it. Listen, I'm not saying I've always flown, like, uh, up top. Like, there's times where I'm like, "I shouldn't have done that or said it," but I, I also run hot, and I know myself. And so I have to (laughs) police myself. And, and then there's times, like, we learn our lesson. It's just I think whatever you do, just own it, whether... If it was the wrong thing to do, just say, "I won't do that next time."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:25

       The-

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras1:09:25

       But I feel like you were okay. (laughs)

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:27

       You said something a second ago, which, about bullies, right? And there's this fascinating thing I've come to learn about bullies and people that are, like, this type of disrespect is they're actually going in search of the weakest link. And the f- the incredible thing that happened in this scenario that I'm describing is once this individual realized that I would literally call it out and I was, I was off the table, they never treated me like that again, but they moved on. They moved on to someone else that I work with. And that person, as we sit here today, is thinking of leaving that environment because of the same person who was making the little snide, slight comments about me is now doing it about them. And I say to this person, I say, "Why don't you just do what I did?" Why... 'cause, 'cause she saw me confront. I say to her, "Why don't you go just do what I did?" And she just says, "I haven't got... I, I don't, I don't want conflict."

    9. EPEvy Poumpouras1:10:19

       So what is she doing actually? She's becoming...

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:21

        Suppressing herself.

    11. EPEvy Poumpouras1:10:22

        Yes.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:23

        Yeah, and she's gonna leave something that she loves doing purely, she called me the other day, purely because this person's making her feel, um, a certain way.

    13. EPEvy Poumpouras1:10:33

        I think that that's okay too though. Like, she can... It reminds me of that narcotic story. It's like she's just like, "I just don't wanna be here anymore."

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:40

        Yeah.

    15. EPEvy Poumpouras1:10:40

        But at the same time too, if she keeps going, when you go small, small, small, they go higher, higher. It's, you know, speaking of bullies... (scoffs) I'm gonna bring it back to crime. When I started interviewing suspects, right? You watch TV shows, and in your head you think these predators, right, are, like, these, like, really intimidating, scary predators, uh, the way they behave. And you think like, "I'm gonna get these, like, savages in the room." Nope. And you know what's interesting? When you look at the populations of people being victimized the most, first it's children, then it's women, and then it's elderly. Why? Because they're the easiest to victimize. So when you look at predators, they pick easy prey or what they perceive as easy prey. They don't want fair fights. I would sit across people in a room who did, like, really horrific crimes against kids, and you would look at them, and you're like, "You? I could eat you for lunch." A lot of times too we build up people in our heads, and we think, like, they're these, these, like, high apex individuals. They're not. They prey on people weaker than themselves, and why? It makes them feel stronger and better and more powerful. Why do you need to do that? Because you feel weak. That's why you do that. That's why you bully. That's why you push, because, because you feel a void, and you look to fill that void by taking from other people. And that's what makes you feel strong. All these predators, I never sat across from anybody, to include terrorists, I never sat across anyone, and I was just like, "Oh, this guy's scary." Never. I'm shocked actually as I say it. I have never to this day sat across someone where I'm like, "Oof." Not once. Everybody I'd walk in, and I'm like, "You?" In my head, of course, the inside voice. Like, "You did this?" And so I guess, like, bullies, like, I think sometimes we unfortunately give them more weight and gravitas than they really are. Weak. Weakness all the way through.

21. 1:12:48 – 1:20:33

    How to Stop Being Prey for a Predator

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras1:12:48

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:48

       With that in mind, how do I stop myself becoming prey to a predator?

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras1:12:52

       You stop acting like prey. So the one thing you're not gonna be...... is it depends who it is. First of all, if it's personal relationships, you have to set the intention of the relationship from the beginning how you want it to go. So let's do work. Work is an easy one. I'm not there to be your friend. I can be friendly, but I'm not gonna be your friend. I'm not there to be super nice to you or super sweet or super kind. Like, I can be warm, I can be respectful, I can be compassionate. I can be those things, but I gotta bring the right version of me to a work environment 'cause then I just get ... Because then I set the tone of, like, "Well, is Evi my friend or is Evi my boss?" Like, what am I dealing with here? Like, always keep that level of professionalism, always. And I make, I make a point to do it because then it just becomes really awkward if, if people are your friends. Can you balance that relationship like that? You just gotta be really, really, really, really good. But, like, don't come in and, like, literally, like, make yourself a doormat or, like, overextend to the point because the more you overextend, even a good person is gonna be like, "Oh, that's just how she is," or, "That's how he is." They get used to being like that, and people like being catered to. They like feeling like they're above. And so now, you create this role dynamic of I'm subservient and you're here, so you wanna make sure that no matter how excited you are to work with someone or be with someone that you don't create this disproportionate thing, like the sees- You wanna keep the seesaw level. It'll go up and down, but, but you wanna make sure that you, because you will do it ... Everybody assesses everybody. Everybody sizes people up. They do it intuitively. People meet you, they size you up. "Oh, he seems like this. She seems like that. She seems like she's gonna be this way." Project what you want them to feel, "I'm here. I'm warm. I'm open. I'm happy to be here again. Thank you for having me. Um, let's talk." But at the same time, you can also think about how you sit, how you carry yourself, your voice, your tone. All these things play alone together. I know people talk about body language. It does play a role in the fact that ... Look, something as simple as when you go to meetings. Are you in a meeting and you're like this? You're small. Maybe you got your phone out, right? What am I doing? I'm, I'm making myself small. My hands aren't on the table because I don't think I'm worth putting my hands on the table, right? I wanna literally make myself disappear. I'm not gonna ask any questions. I'm gonna maybe sit like this with my thing here, right? So this is telling you a story about me. It is. So it's a really subtle way to be like, "Why don't I sit with purpose? I'm gonna sit like this. I'm gonna have my arms out. I'm gonna have my shoulders back." Something as simple as just my posture means something. There's a study actually done. New York City, they put up cameras years ago and they started recording people walking in New York City. Then they took the footage and they played it to convicted felons in prison, and they said to them, "Who would you pick as prey?" They all picked the same people to prey on, all the same people, just by walk. There were three types of walk they found out. One walk was, "I'm walking. I'm sloppy. I'm not paying attention. I'm just, like, in my own space. I have really no deliberate purpose in the way I'm moving my body." Target. Easy prey. Other easy prey, "My walk is small. I'm more timid. I'm kind of, like, not comfortable. I'm, like, paying attention." Easy prey. Those two, bar none, were picked. You know who they didn't pick? The walk wasn't too sloppy big, it wasn't too small, it was right in the middle, and it's deliberate. "I'm in control of my body. I'm looking around. I'm present. I own my space." That person, "I want nothing to do with." Those group of people were not picked to be targets. So we exude vibes, energy, all that stuff, but even this, this tool that we don't pay attention to, our body. Think about how you use it to portray yourself when you're out there. "Am I commanding myself or am I just not paying attention at all?" So even subtle things like that. Your voice, it's called paralinguistics, and I wrote about it a lot in Becoming Bulletproof. Your, your voice. Do I talk like this? "Hi, I'm Evi. So nice to meet you. I'm so glad to be here. Hi, guys. Love it," right? What kind of guest am I gonna be? Mm, right? But when I find my true voice and I own it, I slow down my speech, I bring down my tone and pitch to my true voice, to at least the most powerful voice, and I'm grounded, and I take my time, and I'm also, when I speak and I take my time, I'm letting you know, "I deserve to be here. What I'm saying deserves to be heard, and I deserve to take time for you to listen to me," as opposed to when I speak really, really fast because, "Hey guys, look, really quick. I don't wanna take up anybody's time anymore. I know you're all busy," what did I just tell everybody? "Don't listen to me. What I'm about to say isn't really relevant, and you're more important, and what I'm about to say really isn't." I just killed it. How many times do people finish meetings like that? Why are you saying that? You just told them, "Don't listen to me." These are subtle things that if we just pay attention to ... You don't have to do a lot. You don't have to do a lot. There's no magic pill. There's no secret to this, other than really own yourself and think about, "What am I exuding with my energy, with my body, with my voice?" Even your voice, your voice captures, like, so many things. Like, your voice, it's, it's like, um ... You have to think of it, like, over your, your, your, your time in your life, your voice captures the things you've been through, whether you were told to be quiet, be a good girl, be a good boy, don't talk loud, don't do this, don't do that. And you have to think, like, over time, this voice has become a bit mangled because other people around you were telling you how to use it.And often, we're actually not using our true voice. It's the voice that we've sort of somehow manufactured and created based off of what everybody else told us it should sound like. And so you wanna pay attention to that, like, "How do I sound?" And I even noticed when I... My husband p- pointed this out, 'cause he's kinda got the same background. He said to me once, he's like, "You ever notice that when you talk to your mom, your voice goes high?" And I was like, "It does?" He's like, "Yeah, it does," 'cause she's my mom. She's an authority. And also, she has a higher voice, 'cause she talks with a very high voice. And I'm like, "You're right." And so even with my daughter, 'cause I have a little one, I try very hard to make sure that I don't do, like, the baby babbling voice and, like, the high-pitched voice, because I don't want her to grow up thinking that because she's a girl, she has to talk like this all the time. Hi, Mom! (laughs) Because I want her to have a strong commanding presence, and where's she gonna learn that from? Her mom. In fact, even in, uh... There are studies done that even in scenarios where a child maybe favor the opposite-sex parent, they imitate the same-sex parent. So my daughter, whether she likes me or not growing up, will imitate my behavior more so, because I'm the one she's learning from. And so I have awareness with that.

22. 1:20:33 – 1:22:23

    Can Someone's Life Be Determined by the Way They Speak?

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras1:20:33

Episode duration: 2:38:49