Esther Perel on social atrophy and the connection recession

1. 0:00 – 2:14

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      So I messaged my closest friends, "Can you tell me what question you have that you wouldn't ever say out loud?"

   2. EPEsther Perel0:06

      Give me a few.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:07

      How can I be satisfied with just one sexual partner? I have (censored) my partner. Should I tell them? And I no longer find my partner attractive, but I don't know how to tell her.

   4. EPEsther Perel0:17

      We have a lot to talk about. Are you gonna record me today?

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:20

      Okay.

   6. EPEsther Perel0:20

      All right. (censored) Here's what I would suggest.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett0:23

      Esther Perel is regarded as one of the most sought after relationship therapists in the world. For the past 40 years, she's been helping millions of people with her brutally honest and wildly relatable insights.

   8. EPEsther Perel0:33

      People are having less sex.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett0:34

      Why? Is the sex getting less interesting?

   10. EPEsther Perel0:36

       No! Their life with each other is less interesting. And what concerns me at this moment, it's the loss of social skills, but they are vital to us. And we have less and less opportunities to practice because we are pursuing connection beyond the human world. People don't have partner sex. They have sex on porn. We also are surrounded by algorithmic perfections, and that's creating warped expectations that we bring to our relationships. And then there's the misery of the dating app.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:05

       Have you heard this story of the guy who swiped two million times to get one date?

   12. EPEsther Perel1:11

       Oh, god. It appears that you have many options, but you'll swipe, swipe, swipe, and you're going to get frustrated because you don't get matched with anybody, but don't make the app become the replacement where you can actually go outside, meet people, and also deal with rejection, because it's a major feature to develop relationships. But we've never been more free, but we've never been more alone and more filled with self-doubt.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:34

       So, tell me how to fix it in order to have a great relationship with-

   14. EPEsther Perel1:37

       There's a ton of really important things. The first thing is...

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:42

       This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like the show and you like what we do here and you wanna support us, the free, simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.

2. 2:14 – 3:07

   Esther’s Main Concern About Human Connection

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:14

      Esther, with all that you know and with all that you study and with all that you research and write about and think about, what is it that concerns you most? What is front of mind for you when you think about mating and dating and human connection?

   2. EPEsther Perel2:29

      What concerns me most, I think is the fact that, uh, there is a unique moment in history at this moment where we are redesigning our communication, our ways, ways of connecting, our ways of answering the big questions, but specifically in the realm of relationships, it's a social atrophy. I think we are losing social skills.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:57

      And the word atrophy for anyone that doesn't know is decay?

   4. EPEsther Perel2:59

      Atrophy is when you don't use muscles. They go numb. Social atrophy is when you no longer know how to speak to people.

3. 3:07 – 4:04

   What’s the Consequence of Losing Social Skills?

   1. EPEsther Perel3:07

   2. SBSteven Bartlett3:07

      And what is the cost of that? If we do lose that social ability to, to connect and to have happenstance, what price do we pay? Why does life get harder and how does it get harder?

   3. EPEsther Perel3:18

      Because we are social creatures. We are wired for connection. If we, we live longer because we are connected. We don't live longer because we are master biohackers. We need those connections. They are just literally vital to us. So, um, it's not that we have replaced this, you know, and, and our skills are still honed in. We don't. We have less and less opportunities to practice. If you do sports and you don't practice your sport, you wouldn't be asking me what is the price. You would know that if you don't play and it's been years of not playing, then that thing is out of your life. Done. But you can do other things, whereas you can't live without connection.

4. 4:04 – 6:58

   Is Online Dating the Only Choice Nowadays?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett4:04

      So many people are really dissatisfied with the choices they have for connection. Now, I'm sure we're all to blame, but when I, when I scroll through my, my feed on social media, one of the things I've seen lately, I saw it just before you arrived and also a couple of days ago, was people so angry at dating apps.

   2. EPEsther Perel4:21

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett4:22

      And I've got friends close to me who are furious that their only apparent option to meet someone these days appears to be-

   4. EPEsther Perel4:28

      That's not true. May go, go outside, go walk your dog, go run, go, go with a bike group, go to a, go do life and you will meet people. I mean, you create situations. It's not, you know, where are the available situations, where are the, the options for meeting people? You create options. You know, you're at a, you're at a coffee shop, you're ordering a coffee, ask the person next to you if you can offer them one. Do something that actually invites relatedness. And I know the anger at the app. I get that, you know. I am actually quite connected to, to, to this whole world of dating apps, but I think that it's a tool. Use it, but don't make it become the replacement for the multitudes of situations. Yesterday I sat on a plane, I spoke for three hours with two people just because there was no wifi. It was just an amazing conversation. And at, and all of us at, the moment we landed said to each other, "Wow, if we had had wifi, we would have talked to each other one bit or five minutes and then be done with this." It's all these situations that we don't take advantage of. We used... Where we used to always talk to people, and I think if you just rely on the app, you will go through a loop, you'll go on it, you'll swipe, swipe, swipe, you'll respond with the least amount of effort possible because you've so burned out already from doing this.... that you don't really wanna give much of yourself. If you don't give much of yourself, you're not gonna get the kind of responses that you want. Then you're going to get frustrated because you don't get matched with anybody, but you don't look at your own laziness that is not particularly invited for someone to actually wanna match with you. And then you say, "Now I'm tired of this." So now you get off the app for six months. You take a break. You say, "I'm done with the apps." And then six months later, you say, "I do wanna meet someone." And what do you do? You go back on the app instead of thinking of the multitudes of situations where you can actually meet people, and it's become so weird to talk to somebody, you know. You can sit next to someone in a, at a, at the counter and it's like you're a weirdo if you start talking to me instead of, you know, why not?

   5. SBSteven Bartlett6:48

      'Cause e- even in the situation of your plane ride-

   6. EPEsther Perel6:50

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett6:50

      ... if there had been Wi-Fi, those people wouldn't have wanted to t- talk to you. So really, regardless of your attempt, you would've been met with, you

5. 6:58 – 7:36

   The Value of Rejection

   1. SBSteven Bartlett6:58

      know, rejection to some degree, social rejection. Like if they-

   2. EPEsther Perel7:03

      Maybe. Maybe. But you know, the original app, if you really wanna understand the gamification of that, it was really done as a way to n- not have to put yourself out and have to deal with rejection. But re- do you ... And rejection is a major feature of relationships. Learning to live with people who say no to us is essential. (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett7:26

      Have you heard this story of the guy-

   4. EPEsther Perel7:28

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett7:29

      ... who tracked his Tinder swipes?

   6. EPEsther Perel7:30

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett7:30

      And the story is that he swiped two million times-

   8. EPEsther Perel7:34

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett7:35

      ... to get one

6. 7:36 – 8:33

   Rejection from the Apps

   1. SBSteven Bartlett7:36

      date and you can kinda see, this is him here. This is the image of the, of the swipe. So it says this guy swiped 2,058,000 times. He got 2,000 matches from that-

   2. EPEsther Perel7:50

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett7:51

      ... which turned into 1,200 chats, which turned into one date. Such a system is failing a huge percentage of people. This is the chap, um-

   4. EPEsther Perel8:02

      On what app?

   5. SBSteven Bartlett8:03

      On Tinder, I believe it was.

   6. EPEsther Perel8:05

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett8:05

      This is, here he is. I'll put him on the screen so everyone can see.

   8. EPEsther Perel8:07

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett8:08

      And you can kinda see the, the, the photos that he, he led with on his dating profile. He probably shouldn't be holding a massive fish. I'm not sure many women are into that, but ...

   10. EPEsther Perel8:16

       Oh, he's got the fish picture. Yes. Yes.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett8:19

       For people like him, what's the honest advice that someone like him needs because, you know, clearly dating apps aren't gonna work for him? Which is a lot of us, uh, from what I read.

   12. EPEsther Perel8:26

       Well, how many hours? He should also have put um, the amount of hours that he spent.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett8:29

       Oh, yeah. It does have that, so analytics.

   14. EPEsther Perel8:30

       He has the hours too?

   15. SBSteven Bartlett8:32

       So it has the amount of

7. 8:33 – 11:11

   What to Do If Dating Apps Don’t Work for You

   1. SBSteven Bartlett8:33

      time he's been a member of the apps.

   2. EPEsther Perel8:35

      Right.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett8:35

      Just over five years, almost six years.

   4. EPEsther Perel8:36

      Yes. I mean, uh, the first thing, if, if you sat in my office and you told me this, I would not spend my time discussing what you're doing on the app. I would discuss what you're doing off the app and if you ever are even off the app. I mean, have you ... The amount of hours of swiping that you've done, obviously this is not yielding anything. Why are you continuing? Five years is an enormous amount of time in your life. I feel sad for you. You know? Have you tried any other ways? Have you, have you been with, uh, with your friends? Do you have friends? Have your friends introduced you to people? Have you gone to places where you are more likely to meet people? I don't know what you're interested in, but if fishing is one of those things, you know, maybe even at the fish market you could meet. But I mean, more of it isn't gonna give you more of it. It's just gonna make you more frustrated.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett9:30

      So if you were sat down with him-

   6. EPEsther Perel9:31

      It, there's a, there's a rigidity to this. It's like what are you trying to prove? You know, go try something else. If you're trying to park in a space that you can't get in, at some point, don't you go look for another space?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett9:45

      Is there an element of this where, you know, uh, from what I heard from dating apps, there's only a small percentage of men that could basically get all the opportunity. If the ... I heard ... I'll put the numbers on the screen, but-

   8. EPEsther Perel9:55

      Yeah, I know the, the wholes. Yes.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett9:57

      You know the ... Yeah. And a large proportion of women get lots of opportunity 'cause lots of men swipe for-

   10. EPEsther Perel10:01

       But opportunity for what? To be swiped? Does that mean ... There's ... And then what? The main thing is, can we have a conversation about emotional capitalism? You know, I go, I try, I, I try to get the best. I try to shop, you know. I try to, to maximize my chances. But fundamentally, the app originally was broadening your circle. It gave you the opportunity to meet people that you would otherwise not meet. There was something very beautiful about that. From that, it became a commodification. People treat each other like shit. People ghost each other left and right. People tell each other things and then disappear. People don't have to say, "I'm not interested in seeing you again." They just close the shop. And the misery is not because they haven't met someone. The misery is the treatment that this kind of semi-anonymity enables you. You don't have to be polite anymore. You don't have to treat people with minimum decency. And that's what hurts people, that, that makes people bitter, angry, doubting themselves, a lot of things like that.

8. 11:11 – 12:46

   Is Too Much Choice Making Dating Harder?

   1. EPEsther Perel11:11

   2. SBSteven Bartlett11:11

      Is part of the challenge that I have so many apparent options now as someone on these dating apps? It's kind of like going to a ... when you go to like Asia or Thailand and you get the menu, and the menu is so big they'll like make anything you want. So you find it hard to choose, and also any choice you make, you realize that it's come at the cost of so many other things you could have had, so it's less special. It's less scarce. And in a world of Instagram and dating apps, it appears that I have 100,000 options.

   3. EPEsther Perel11:36

      Yes. It appears that you have a dozen or many options, and it appears that you have a paradox of choice, and it appears that you constantly are dealing with the FOMO of what else is around the corner. But the interesting thing is when I work with people, I spend a lot of time reading, reading what they actually post. Even a peacock is more creative than us, you know, in how they attract people, in what you say, in what ... The, "Hey, what's up? Wanna hang?" Is that giving you any energy in your body?

   4. SBSteven Bartlett12:06

      No.

   5. EPEsther Perel12:06

      Okay. I mean, this is half the, the messages.'Oh, I'm watching. I'm chilling.' Okay, well, keep chilling. It's like, where is the energy? Where... You know, there's something about called flirting, (laughs) attracting someone, showing an interest, et cetera, et cetera.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett12:23

      What's a better thing for us to say?

   7. EPEsther Perel12:25

      Oh, man. You know, show interest. "I saw something in your picture. Uh, I'm wondering..." You know, if we went to listen to music, what's the first band we would go to listen to?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett12:36

      Mm-hmm.

   9. EPEsther Perel12:36

      Something that says you are a person with life, with interest, with curiosity. Show curiosity. It's probably the first thing that you do when you are drawn to somebody.

9. 12:46 – 14:15

   How to Cope with Online Dating Burnout

   1. EPEsther Perel12:46

   2. SBSteven Bartlett12:46

      I guess if I've been rejected so much, as you said, I've been kind of demoralized. The energy's been taken out of me, so now it's just become this sort of cycle of just nothing.

   3. EPEsther Perel12:53

      Well, then don't do it. Then go, then do something else for a while. D- Don't stay in that pattern. It's re- it's, it's really depleting. But the thing about the choice is that we also are living surrounded by algorithmic perfections and predictive technologies that are trying to deliver us always, you know, on demand, delivery of our every delight always on, without any friction, and that is creating warped expectations that we bring to our relationships, that very same expectation for perfection, and for sycophantic responses, you know. So the more we are interacting with AIs and the more we are resp- receiving a different kind of response, the more challenging it will be for us to actually deal with real people, and, and to face what you call rejection. Not every refusal is a rejection. I mean, this guy didn't write how many times he wasn't interested. He only tells you what's happening to him. He gives you the victim story. It's a statement of, "This thing doesn't work for me," and, "Men don't get answered on the app." And you get this whole plight, but there's no context. I can't give you an, uh... and I don't think anybody should actually respond to this without knowing all these other details.

10. 14:15 – 15:42

    The Changing Role of Masculinity and Its Impact on Society

    1. EPEsther Perel14:15

    2. SBSteven Bartlett14:15

       Is there an issue... when you mentioned men there...

    3. EPEsther Perel14:16

       (laughs)

    4. SBSteven Bartlett14:16

       Is there an issue that gender roles have shifted? And when we think about the plight of men, they are, you know... the s- I think the single biggest killer of men over the age of 45 is themselves, and the gender roles, um, have shifted so much that often men have l- less purpose, feelings of purpose and worth now than they used to have. Women and men have got- gotten closer to a point of financial equality. They've gotten closer, um, than the past, which now kind of also means that the role of a man, if we think historically-

    5. EPEsther Perel14:48

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett14:48

       ... is less clear than the role of a man maybe 50, 100 years ago.

    7. EPEsther Perel14:53

       To understand masculinity, you have to understand the broader spectrum of relationships. So, relationships used to be about duty and obligation, loyalty and community. And happiness came not from what you do for yourself, but happiness c- came from having fulfilled your role and your mission and your obligation to the people that you owe to, your family primarily. That model is still the prevailing model in most parts of the world. We shifted that model from duty and obligation to option and choice, and so now we have zero clarity and a lot of freedom, and we've never been more free, but we've never been more alone and more confused and more filled with self-doubt.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett15:33

       How, how long have you been working with men and women in a relationship, love, connection-

    9. EPEsther Perel15:41

       40 years.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett15:41

        40 years.

    11. EPEsther Perel15:41

        Yes.

11. 15:42 – 17:02

    Loneliness Today

    1. EPEsther Perel15:42

    2. SBSteven Bartlett15:42

       So what have you seen change in the conversation around men and masculinity? Like, what are the different problems that men are talking about in... when they speak to you, that they weren't speaking about when you started your career?

    3. EPEsther Perel15:53

       I mean, y- you can start with the subject of loneliness. Loneliness, which is a, a, a general societal issue at this point, is definitely a major affliction, even more so for boys and men. Okay. Loneliness was not a- a, a story of men in the 19th century. Men hunted together, men hiked together, men b- gathered together, men went to the bar together. Men had conversations with other men. Men meant- met, you know? So there, there, there is nothing inherent about men that sets them up for more loneliness and isolation. That is, uh, really important to understand. Men, boys, till the age of four and then till the age of seven, are highly emotional. They can articulate, they can... So these are cultural phenomenons. These are social developments. This, this is not biological. This is not intrinsic to men.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett16:52

       One shift that's taken place, which I'm keen to get your perspective on, is... relates to sex. One in three men under 30 in the US reported no sex

12. 17:02 – 20:02

    Why Do People Have Less Sex Nowadays?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett17:02

       in the past year. That's triple the rate from 2008. Millennials and Gen Zs are having less sex than any generation since records began, despite more access to the dating apps we talked about.

    2. EPEsther Perel17:12

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett17:13

       In Japan, over 40% of young adults are virgins, and they say, many say that they have no interest in sex.

    4. EPEsther Perel17:18

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett17:19

       And lastly, married couples in the UK and the United States report a steady decline in sexual frequency since the early 2000s.

    6. EPEsther Perel17:26

       Huh. Yeah. I wrote about that in Mating in Captivity that came out in 2006. That's 20 years ago. Yes. Because in order to have sex with a female partner, if that's the man you're talking about, you need to be able to approach her. And so social atrophy is directly connected to what is often called the sexual recession. I mean, uh, I... In, in Mating, 20 years ago, I have an entire chapter where someone basically says to me, "I'd rather have the security of an MBA than of a relationship." Okay? And at that point already, you began to see that the adolescents in the United States... it's not everywhere in the world, but certainly in the US, and... were more and more going in groups and having less and less pair bonding, and less and less romantic relationships that accompany you through your adolescence that develop with you, and you basically develop sex as part of a plot and not as something that at some point your hormones force you to do. (laughs) But the story, a story, a relationship is a story. And then a- suddenly you arrive at a certain age, and now you're looking at this other person with whom you wanna have sex, and it's like this, uh, unknown continent that you have to conquer. Uh, but abo- but you've never spoken with those people. You have very little female friends who are just friends, who help you understand what happens with your girlfriend. You know, there's, there's a, an entire social map that has dissipated. So the sex is the last thing on the list of all these disconnects that then, of course, lead you to have this kind of statistic. And that means with partners, they have plenty of sex maybe with themselves and others, other, uh, uh, other... (laughs) But it's partnered sex here that is in- that is involved, right? They have sex on porn. They have sex. They've, don't have partner sex, you know? Do you understand when I say to you, this is, uh, you can add that to your statistics too, that the majority of men who come to sex therapy today for erectile dysfunctions are young men in their 20s, not old men after prostate issues.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett19:32

       Really?

    8. EPEsther Perel19:32

       Yes.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett19:33

       Why?

    10. EPEsther Perel19:34

        Because they spend an enormous amount of time with themselves.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett19:39

        Watching porn and masturbating?

    12. EPEsther Perel19:40

        Yes. The, because in order to be able to maintain erections with a partner, it's an, it's an, a, it's an attunement, right? It's a resonance. It's grooving together. But if you've always just been by yourself, then you only know how to kind of be connected to your own physiological responses.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett19:59

        I've worried about this before. I've worried that if

13. 20:02 – 21:35

    Importance of Deep Connection in Relationships

    1. SBSteven Bartlett20:02

       I watch pornography that I will, like, desensitize myself to the real thing.

    2. EPEsther Perel20:07

       Depends how much, depends if what else is in your life. I mean, it's not an all or nothing thing. But what I'm saying is social atrophy, the, the cl- the gradual disconnect of the multiple touch points between people leads to then the challenges that are also sexual, leads to the kind of social isolation, leads to people confusing friends and friendships, so they can have a thousand virtual friends but no one to feed their cat. You know, it's, it's, it's all para.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett20:40

       No one to feed their cat?

    4. EPEsther Perel20:42

       Yeah, who would pick up a prescription at the pharmacy, who may pick me up at the airport, who will go check on, on, on someone I care about if I ha- happen to not be there. Yes, who shows up for me? Because it's foundational to trust. Who can I lean on? Do you have my back and I rely on you?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett21:00

       So do you think the partnered sex is in decline because, because they're still having sex but they're doing it on their own now with, in various ways?

    6. EPEsther Perel21:08

       Partner sex is in decline because social connection is in decline, because people have less friends, because people, the statistics on who you call to when you are in trouble are really terrible.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett21:21

       Mm-hmm.

    8. EPEsther Perel21:21

       People have no one to confide in.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett21:23

       So what, how does that impact my sex with my partner?

    10. EPEsther Perel21:26

        Well, you wou- you won't have a partner usually. What this statistic says is that there is no partner. Young men below the age of 30 don't have sex with partners.

14. 21:35 – 27:52

    How Phone Use Affects Connection and Sexual Attraction

    1. EPEsther Perel21:35

    2. SBSteven Bartlett21:35

       This one here from the British Medical Journal says that married couples in the UK and US report a steady decline in sexual frequency-

    3. EPEsther Perel21:41

       Yes, yes.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett21:42

       ... since basically the internet.

    5. EPEsther Perel21:43

       Yeah, so here's how this works. How much time do you spend in front of a screen during the day?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett21:48

       Hmm, nine hours.

    7. EPEsther Perel21:49

       All right. And then you sometimes think now I'm gonna go home and I'm finally can close the screens.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett21:54

       Yeah.

    9. EPEsther Perel21:55

       But then you're so tired that all you can do is watch TV.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett21:59

        Yeah.

    11. EPEsther Perel21:59

        And then while you watch TV, you're also scrolling on your phone.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett22:02

        Yeah.

    13. EPEsther Perel22:03

        And then while you're watching TV and scrolling on your phone, there may be somebody sitting next to you that does the exact same thing.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett22:09

        Yeah.

    15. EPEsther Perel22:09

        All right. And then somebody may even say something to the other person who goes, "Uh-huh."

    16. SBSteven Bartlett22:15

        Doesn't look at them.

    17. EPEsther Perel22:16

        "Uh-huh. Very interesting." And you really wonder why people are having less sex?

    18. SBSteven Bartlett22:22

        (laughs) It is, it's hard. It's hard. I'm gonna say it is hard.

    19. EPEsther Perel22:28

        Right? So people are experiencing at that moment what I've come to call ambiguous loss. Ambiguous loss is when I'm actually with somebody but I don't feel the closeness, the intimacy, the connection from actually being with that person. I don't know if you're here or not here. Ambiguous loss is actually a term that was developed by Pauline Boss, a psychologist, who talked about it. When you have a person who has Alzheimer or dementia and they are actually physically in front of you but they are emotionally or psychologically gone, or people who are deployed or have disappeared or miscarriage where people are no longer physically there but they are emotionally very, very present inside of you. In both cases, you don't know are they here or are they not? Do I say goodbye or do I hold on? When I am doing this-

    20. SBSteven Bartlett23:24

        Looking at your phone.

    21. EPEsther Perel23:25

        ... and I have, like, the st- a still face and I'm barely responding to you who said something that may be quite important, you don't know are you here but you're not present. I'm with you but I'm not experiencing any of the things that one experiences from the closeness of being with you, like Alzheimer or dementia. Physically there but psychologically elsewhere, because it's not just that you're not here, it's that you're in another world. You've gone somewhere. You may be talking to who knows?

    22. SBSteven Bartlett23:56

        And I guess this is the, from reading your work, this is the crux of many an argument. The argument might sound like, oh, you didn't put the toilet seat down, but it's actually linked to something else, something deeper under the surface. I, I just see it, you know, specifically when me and my partner have been away from each other for a long time-

    23. EPEsther Perel24:17

        Mm-hmm.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett24:17

        ... and then we come back together, I always know we're gonna argue for the first, like, one or two days. It's not even gonna be an argument, it's gonna be...... there's gonna be a problem. And the problem is usually around expectations, which is, I come in and my head is still, "Duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh." Like, I'm still a million miles away, maybe on a different frequency, thinking about lots of things, and I think she comes into that space expecting connection-

    25. EPEsther Perel24:37

        Mm-hmm.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett24:37

        ... and I let her down. And we tried to, like, call it out and say, "Listen, when we come back together, let's just, you know, both make an effort in that direction." But, um, going back to your point of ambiguous loss, it's like, it's almost like she's trying to test if I'm m- connected to her, and I sometimes don't do a good job of that 'cause of how I come into that space. Like, for example, right now I'm filming Dragon's Den, which is a TV show, in Manchester, and so I film three or four days a week, morning till night. The minute I get off from it, I'm back with her. So you can imagine, everything hits me at once. Do you understand what I'm saying?

    27. EPEsther Perel25:16

        Yes.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett25:16

        Like, all of my team, all the to-do lists, everything, "Steve, we need you to sign this off," all at once, but then I'm back in front of her.

    29. EPEsther Perel25:21

        Mm-hmm.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett25:22

        So, um, she's experiencing that ambiguous loss. And the expectation was that we haven't seen each other for a while, so this is, you know.
15. 27:52 – 28:38

    Questions from Steven’s Friends

    1. EPEsther Perel27:52

    2. SBSteven Bartlett27:52

       Before we sat down today, I messaged a group of ten-

    3. EPEsther Perel27:57

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett27:57

       ... of my closest friends, I put them all in a group chat, and I told them I was gonna be speaking to you today. So I said to them, "Can you tell me what question you have for Esther Perel," these are all my, ten of my best friends, "that you wouldn't ever say out loud? 'How can I be satisfied with just one sexual partner? I have been unfaithful with my partner in the past, and I feel guilty about it. Should I tell them? I no longer find my partner attractive, but I don't know how to tell her. I love her, but I don't find her attractive.'" Those are probably the most interesting ones.

    5. EPEsther Perel28:36

       Mm-hmm.

16. 28:38 – 31:01

    Is It Always a Good Idea to Admit to Infidelity?

    1. EPEsther Perel28:38

       I think the one that I would probably, uh, address is also, uh, about the infidelity and about your guilt. That's, that, and also to this person, read State of Affairs, because I spent many years writing this book about infidelity and trying to offer a very nuanced perspective on this very subject. But here's the thing, to tell somebody something just because you don't have a clean conscience and you feel guilty isn't always the kind thing to do. Ask yourself what will happen to your partner or to your relationship for that matter if you speak about this now, and who are you doing it for? I think honesty sometimes is extremely caring, and at other times can be very cruel. It cleanses you and it destroys another person. Deal with your responsibility and deal with your guilt and face the consequences of your behavior, and treat your partner with all the good things that actually say, "And now I'm willing to really invest in here and, and make up for what I did," without having to destroy the narrative of the relationship, because everybody has a story about their relationship. Everybody has a set of shared assumptions about their relationship, and you are gonna come in and just say, "Last year," or, "two years ago," or, "five years ago, I did X, Y and Z," and from that moment on, you rob the other person of their narrative. You may think you did something that was honest, and sometimes that is the case, but many times you actually create an enormous amount of hurt. If you feel guilty, it's not bad. Deal with your guilt.... face it, take your responsibility, and make your relationship the best relationship you can, and honor your partner in that way. Don't honor them by putting your dirt onto them. That is a different way of saying, and that is not for everyone, but I think that it is an important perspective to include here, because we live in this era where transparency supposedly is the, the best model for everything, and people dish stuff out on other people that destroys them in the name

17. 31:01 – 33:20

    Attraction with a Partner

    1. EPEsther Perel31:01

       of. And when you're no longer attracted to your person, you know, ask yourself what is that about. You know, is it, are you paying attention? Are you, um... I think people often just think that attraction is something like I look at you and I should just instantly have a response, you know? Um, and sometimes it's also because I haven't really taken a good look, and sometimes it's because what I'm looking at isn't necessarily anymore what draws me in. And sometimes, it's, it's not, you know, attraction is a very flec- fluid thing. It comes and go. When I'm angry at you, I'm not nearly as attracted to you as when I'm looking at you being so kind to someone and I say, "What a great person you are." And I just wanna come in and I run over and I wanna hug you and I wanna hold you. That's attraction too, right? We're not just talking about the attraction to have sex with somebody. Attraction is, is in a, in a, is part of a story. It's part of a context, you know. If you think that you're just going to watch Netflix for three hours, scroll on your phone for another two, and then turn around and say, "Oh, you're so attractive and I'm so turned on by you." We, you're, you're off, you're off. This is not the way that it works. And then w- it's easy to replace the person and to just think, you're, you know, new shiny object, we will be very attracted again. But attraction is a part of an interaction. The, these two words have the s- same etymological root. If there is zero interaction... Now, if you have a partner who neglects themselves, a partner who, you know, there's lots of things that people also do that diminishes them. There was a woman in a, in a, in a, uh, uh, call for, uh, an event I just did, and, you know, there had been some hurt in the relationship, and so she said, "I'm no longer attracted," which is not the same as, "I have no desire." Basically, she had no desire. And she said, "But I've worked o- we've talked everything out. We've discussed it." I said, "Yeah, you may have discussed it, but your body's shut down. Your body carries the anger. Your body carries the hurt. Your body carries the feelings, and your body doesn't wanna open, so obviously it's not over." You know, so that too is attraction.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett33:17

       It is one of the most

18. 33:20 – 36:51

    Is Long-Term Faithfulness in a Relationship Possible?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett33:20

       popular things that men whisper to me in silence, which is, they can't seem to get their, um, uh, listen, I'm saying men because m- my, the majority of my good friends-

    2. EPEsther Perel33:29

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett33:29

       ... that whisper to me are men, so it might be the case for women too, I just can't speak to that-

    4. EPEsther Perel33:32

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett33:33

       ... is that they are unsure how they could possibly be faithful for a prolonged period of time, um, and have one partner for a bl- prolonged period of time.

    6. EPEsther Perel33:44

       I think that you s- would be an interesting thing to tell your men friends.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett33:48

       Mm-hmm.

    8. EPEsther Perel33:50

       W- women get bored with monogamy much sooner than men.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett33:54

       Really?

    10. EPEsther Perel33:55

        Yes.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett33:56

        That's not what men think. (laughs)

    12. EPEsther Perel33:58

        No, men think she's not interested in sex, and what they should probably replace it with is that she's not interested in the sex she's can h- she's gonna have. In order to want sex, it needs to be sex that is worth wanting. For women to remain interested, it needs to be interesting. And so, the fact that women don't necessarily experience the same liberties, at least historically and culturally all over the world, that men do, so they remain in their homes w- and they are not as unfaithful because there's been a double standard around infidelity forever everywhere in the world.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett34:39

        For this particular friend of mine, where is that message? I, what, what should I say to him when he says, "How can you be satisfied with one sexual partner?" That's literally, just so you know that I'm not just-

    14. EPEsther Perel34:50

        Yeah, I believe you. (laughs)

    15. SBSteven Bartlett34:51

        (laughs) Yeah, but some people at home might think that it's, like, me as a proxy of a, um...

    16. EPEsther Perel34:55

        But, but maybe you're not. Maybe you're not. Maybe you want to have more partners. Maybe you want your partner to have other partners too. That's not always so the case, right?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett35:05

        He doesn't want to lose her.

    18. EPEsther Perel35:07

        That's right.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett35:07

        They've been together, I think, 25-

    20. EPEsther Perel35:09

        Yeah.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett35:10

        ... years.

    22. EPEsther Perel35:10

        So, you know, the, it won't, y- y- you may have sometimes frustrations. If you, it, there's a few options, right? You either say, "We have a relationship that can welcome other people. We're not exclusive."

    23. SBSteven Bartlett35:22

        But she's gonna leave then.

    24. EPEsther Perel35:24

        It, because she doesn't want that.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett35:26

        Yeah.

    26. EPEsther Perel35:26

        Okay. So then the next thing is, as best as you can, make it as interesting and as fun and as pleasurable as it can be. And, uh, my first question to you is, have you been doing the same old for God knows how many years? And with that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised that you're not that attracted, or that she's not that interested for that matter. So, if you want to be satisfied or more satisfied, I mean, you have a dialogue, you know? And the more satisfied means bring more of yourself and, and, and make this experience more erotic, more pleasurable, more playful, more fulfilling. You may remain frustrated and you may say, "I would love to have other people." And for that matter, maybe your partner wants, would, would want it too, but that's not the kind of relationship that she wants. That doesn't mean she hasn't thought about other people, and it certainly wouldn't mean that if she fantasizes, she fantasizes about you. So, everybody's keeping their secrets here, you know? Um, and then the next thing is...... are you, are you putting more emphasis on the fact that you're not as satisfied having one sexual partner? Or are you putting more focus on the fact that you're going to make this sexual experience with your partner as pleasurable and rich as can be? If you find yourself more on the complaining side, then you're gonna be constantly more unsati- dissatisfied (laughs)

19. 36:51 – 39:06

    Importance of Taking Accountability

    1. EPEsther Perel36:51

       .

    2. SBSteven Bartlett36:51

       I think much of it is actually he and many others want the best of all worlds and in life we're not willing to accept trade-offs.

    3. EPEsther Perel36:58

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett36:59

       So, in you're saying, you're saying make a decision. If you want that life then be honest about that life. If you don't want that life then-

    5. EPEsther Perel37:05

       But I'm also saying-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett37:06

       ... make it spicy in bed.

    7. EPEsther Perel37:06

       ... invest in that thing to make it better.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett37:09

       Yeah, that's the other alternative which is-

    9. EPEsther Perel37:10

       If you're bored with the food you eat, go buy other food and, and, and, and cook at home and make it more rich and more interesting if you don't want to have the same dinner every night in the house. The question is what are people doing to make their relationships more vibrant, more erotic, more alive? I mean, this is really y- y- you, by the way, it's not about having more sex. You can have more sex at, and not feel much. It's about making it more alive and vibrant. That is what much of my work is about is cultivating the eroticism and the aliveness in relationships on the fr- on the personal front. And you ask people, "What do you do to make it rich and interesting?" Eiv- and, and you find the laziness, the complacency, the constant same old, same old, and then the complaint about it, and then you say, "That is, that is really self-defeating."

    10. SBSteven Bartlett38:01

        Are you frustrated with people as though?

    11. EPEsther Perel38:02

        No, I smile at it.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett38:04

        It's the same, it's the same-

    13. EPEsther Perel38:05

        I smi- I s- I, I, I just, I, I smile at the, the way that we can lie to ourselves. I smile at the way we can complain about others and, as if th- we have no implication. I smile at the way we don't want to take responsibility for actually getting the things that we really want.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett38:23

        You must see the same patterns over and over again, then?

    15. EPEsther Perel38:25

        Those ones I do. Not all. But this kind of pattern, which is actually why I've wro- expanded to, from only working in the romantic sphere to working also in the workplace because relationships are richer than just this and I think that this friend, I would have a five-minute conversation with him and I would ask him these very questions. I would ask the partner also those very questions and I would have a few ideas. It's not uber complicated (laughs) . Are you gonna record me to him (laughs) ?

    16. SBSteven Bartlett39:03

        No, I'm just g- okay.

20. 39:06 – 42:44

    How People Are Energizing Their Relationships

    1. SBSteven Bartlett39:06

    2. EPEsther Perel39:06

       (laughs)

    3. SBSteven Bartlett39:07

       What would you say to him?

    4. EPEsther Perel39:08

       What's his name? Or-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett39:09

       I sh- I should probably-

    6. EPEsther Perel39:10

       Or a name?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett39:10

       Let's call him John.

    8. EPEsther Perel39:11

       John (laughs) . So, "Yes, John. It's, we are, we are not necessarily, uh, curious only about one partner. Many people would like to have other partners. In the context of your relationship, that is not an option for you as I understand. So if that is the situation and you really deeply care about your partner and your relationship with her, then the next question is what do you do to energize your relationship? To bring playfulness, curiosity, imagination, eroticism as in life force, as in aliveness, not as in sex, to your relationship? Are you bringing the leftovers home and the best of yourself goes to work? Or are you also bringing your creativity, your energy, your curiosity to your relationship? My sense is that if you do that, there is a good chance that you will actually have a more satisfying erotic connection with your partner. That doesn't mean you won't have interest, curiosity, fantasies about others, but it will g- free you from this position in which you just kinda say, 'I'm bored, I'm not satisfied, I would like a little more diversity,' and all of that." And f- just for you, do not imagine that you're the only one in your relationship who thinks this way and wants this. It's just that you may have a partner who doesn't want the consequences of it. That doesn't mean she wouldn't fantasize about the plurality herself.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett40:47

       I'm gonna send that.

    10. EPEsther Perel40:49

        (laughs)

    11. SBSteven Bartlett40:49

        Um, please listen...

    12. EPEsther Perel40:52

        (laughs) To the ad hoc intervention (laughs) .

    13. SBSteven Bartlett40:56

        Yeah. Just need a honest response.

    14. EPEsther Perel41:00

        Have you ever done that? Huh? (laughs)

    15. SBSteven Bartlett41:05

        No. (laughing)

    16. EPEsther Perel41:05

        On your podcast?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett41:06

        Response.

    18. EPEsther Perel41:07

        And Perel said-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett41:08

        (laughs)

    20. EPEsther Perel41:08

        ... women are mo- often more f- quickly bored with monogamy than men. And that is the secret that people do not understand. That means that in order for her to remain engaged, it has to remain more engaging and interesting and fun and pleasurable. And if it's just to get it done and just to do it for the sake of doing it, then she really can often spare it. And where men are much more able to remain actually, contrary to what he describes, to remain interested, that doesn't mean they don't want others as well, but they can remain more interested in their partner without having to change it like that and it is interpreted as women are less interested in sex w- rather than women need more in order to remain interested.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett41:56

        They need more of the emotional stuff, right?

    22. EPEsther Perel41:57

        They need, not necessarily! Not only. They need more imagination, more risque, more connection, more attention, more of a lot of whatever is her thing.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett42:06

        Right. Okay.

    24. EPEsther Perel42:08

        It's, it's one of the, the most important things I learned actually that, that kind of turned it around for me because once you begin to look at it like that, it sh- it plays with this classic gender division, men want, women doesn't. It's boring. It's r- it's like, it becomes true just because we say it all the time but that doesn't mean it is. This is true for a lot of these gender things.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett42:31

        Um-... and so my friend replied, and the essence of what they said-

    26. EPEsther Perel42:35

        (laughs) Seriously?

    27. SBSteven Bartlett42:36

        Yes. He said, "She's right." The intimacy in our relationship has died, and it died so long ago that I think part of me doesn't feel like I can revive it

21. 42:44 – 44:37

    How to Revive Intimacy When Gone for So Long

    1. SBSteven Bartlett42:44

       anymore. We're so used to the relationship being off."

    2. EPEsther Perel42:47

       Okay. Put the f- put the mic on.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett42:49

       Okay. Yep.

    4. EPEsther Perel42:51

       All right. John, here's what I would suggest. Um, I think that you can just simply say, I, you know, "Steve approached me and asked me if I had a question for Esther Perel, and I just threw out this thing. At first, I was just kind of flippant about it. I just thought, 'Uh, what you do when you... ' You know. But in fact, when she answered, I realized, you know, that this is a bigger thing between us, and this is an emptiness and a gap that we allowed to create, and that I have contributed to, and I don't just wanna leave it at that. So I thought, I'm gonna sit down and actually write to you. I wanna just write some of my thoughts because, uh, I think when we sit, we avoid the subject, we circle around it, or I avoid it, or I'm defensive about it, or... Anyway, whatever it is that I've done, I don't know you enough, John, to know the details of that." And then you just really say, you know, "Something died a long time ago, and I feel awkward about it, but I miss it, and I miss you, and I miss us, and I would like to know if you are willing to reengage with me and for us to rekindle. It's... Desire goes through intermittent eclipses. It's like the moon. It disappears, but it can reappear. And I would love to invite you to reengage with me to bring back the light, the spark inside of us, because we can do it. We are more than just this, and because just living side by side I don't think is gonna be enough for either of us, and I'm prepared to do my part. Would you be willing to do yours?"

    5. SBSteven Bartlett44:27

       Oh. That was beautiful. That was beautiful.

    6. EPEsther Perel44:32

       And then let's see if he still answers us-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett44:34

       Yeah.

22. 44:37 – 45:40

    Ads

    1. SBSteven Bartlett44:37

       (laughs)

    2. EPEsther Perel44:37

       ... before we end. (laughs)

    3. SBSteven Bartlett44:37

       (paper rustling) I made the biggest investment I've ever made in a company because of my girlfriend. I came home one night, and my lovely girlfriend was up at 1:00 AM in the morning pulling her hair out as she tried to piece together her own online store for her business, and in that moment, I remembered an email I'd had from a guy called John, the founder of Stan Store, our new sponsor, and a company I've invested incredibly heavily in. And Stan Store helps creators to sell digital products, courses, coaching, and memberships all through a simple customizable link-in-bio system, and it handles everything, payments, bookings, emails, community engagement, and even links with Shopify. And I believe in it so much that I'm going to launch a Stan challenge, and as part of this challenge, I'm gonna give away $100,000 to one of you. If you wanna take part in this challenge, if you wanna monetize the knowledge that you have, visit stevenbartlett.stan.store to sign up, and you'll also get an extended 30-day free trial of Stan Store if you use that link. Your next move could, quite frankly, change everything.

23. 45:40 – 48:00

    Do People Enjoy Sex Less Than Before?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett45:40

       (paper rustling) Are you hearing a lot of couples in your practice increasingly say, either member of the couple, that they don't like having sex?

    2. EPEsther Perel45:50

       Not more than before. I wrote a book-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett45:52

       Oh, really?

    4. EPEsther Perel45:52

       ... 20 years ago that was all about the dilemmas of desire.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett45:55

       You've always heard it?

    6. EPEsther Perel45:56

       I always heard it. No, I don't think that there are fundamental changes around that. I think the changes are the fact that people are spending less f- time together where they are actually attentive to each other. They're half there. Their p- attention is fragmented. They're multitasking all the time. The- that's what is changing, and if you have less connection, less attention, less intimacy, less int- why do you think that people are suddenly gonna be turned on?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett46:24

       But is the sex getting less interesting?

    8. EPEsther Perel46:26

       No, their life with each other is less interesting. (laughs) And this last time when I spoke to you like this, you told me-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett46:34

       Yeah, I said, "Why are you shouting at me?" (laughs)

    10. EPEsther Perel46:36

        "Why you shouting at me?" (laughs)

    11. SBSteven Bartlett46:37

        (laughs)

    12. EPEsther Perel46:38

        Their life is less interesting. The sex is the, is the consequence of, of seven other things before. God, they haven't said anything interesting to each other. They haven't laughed. They haven't kissed each other. They haven't looked at each other. They haven't barely touched each other, and suddenly the sex, the sex needs to be, you know, all hot and, and, and, and passionate? On what frequent basis? Their life is not interesting. Their communication, their interaction, their conversations, their attention to each other, the fact that they matter, the fact that their presence means something in each other's lives, that's what is all connected to long-term sex. Long-term sex doesn't come just from because you lo- I look at you, and I'm, and I'm all hot. It- it- it's a different mechanism. So, you're asking a question that happens here, and I am telling you if all of this is rather boring and, uh, unengaged, it's like at work, you know, I'm doing a lot of this stuff around work now. It's like if the engagement is low, on what basis do we think people are gonna perform? The performance is here, but the performance is a response to the engagement, which is a response to the culture, which is a response to the quality of the relationships between the people who work together. It's the same in the personal realm.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett47:59

        Mm-hmm.

24. 48:00 – 49:34

    Do I Have to Work on Myself Before I Can Have a Good Relationship?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett48:01

       What element of responsibility do I have in making sure that my relationship with myself is great in order to have a great relationship with someone else? 'Cause a lot of people like to blame-

    2. EPEsther Perel48:13

       I think the premise is inaccurate.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett48:15

       Okay. Fix my premise.

    4. EPEsther Perel48:16

       The premise is that it, uh, it's time for us to begin to question the intense level of individualism and self-thinking, self-love, self-care, self-fulfillment, self-awareness. It's all about the self in front, and the presumption is that if all those levels of the self have been attended to, we will be better able to attend to other people.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett48:39

       So what do you think about this culture of self-care and self-love, and s-

    6. EPEsther Perel48:42

       I think it's gone overboard. I think it's, it's a distortion. I think it feeds consumerism. I think that there's a lot of elements of it that are highly important, but we have completely lost the fact that what actually is at the root of well-being, happiness, longevity, meaning, is in our relationships and our connections with others, as well as with ourselves. When you give to others, you will less depressed. When you ha- when you feel like you make a difference in other people's life, it makes you feel better, chemically too. If you go on the street and you make some, you give compliments to people and you tell them that they look really great or this is beautiful, what they're wearing, and you've made a smile on someone's face, your oxytocin levels go up too. Doing for others makes us feel better about

25. 49:34 – 51:04

    Has the Culture of Self-Love Gone Too Far?

    1. EPEsther Perel49:34

       ourselves as well. Not all the time and not every circumstance, but that voluntary connecting and, and, and being engaged with other people. Whereas being engaged with oneself, have you seen at the gym how people are super engaged with themselves, lifting and, but nobody's interacting with anybody? And many of these people go home and there's nobody there, huh? It's not like they're doing this for someone that, that's waiting for them. Relating to yourself is not a goal in and of itself. It is a step to something, but it's not in and of itself an achievement.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett50:08

       The goal is re- relating to others?

    3. EPEsther Perel50:11

       The goal is, is, yes, is having meaningful relationships, meaningful connections with other people and other causes that are beyond yourself. Part of why we are so miserable and so unhappy and so, is because we are so constantly focused on ourselves. There's the world, there's nature, there's politics, there's climate, there's people, there's poverty, there is a ton of things to be interested in. There's art, there's creativity, there's a lot of things that are beyond us, that is beyond maximizing and optimizing and hacking and focusing on myself and navel-gazing. And I am a therapist, and I work with individuals who I am helping to have a better relationship with themselves and deal with what stands in the way to relate to others, not what stands in the way to feel good about me, period.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett51:03

       With

26. 51:04 – 58:53

    Are Men Emasculated by the Success of Women?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett51:04

       gender roles re- reversing, have you seen men get increasingly emasculated by the success of women in your practice? And have you seen also the woman get sort of frustrated with the man because he's now not the breadwinner? There was this stat I saw that said, again, rough numbers, 70% of women expect the man to be the bread- breadwinner, but then there's this bigger social narrative that actually no, 50/50 or, you know, equality is the case. Um, and I was sat here with a guy who runs, runs the Men and Boys Clinic, I think it's called The Men and Boys Institute or something, Richard Reeves.

    2. EPEsther Perel51:39

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett51:39

       And Richard W- Reeves was a stay-at-home dad, and then his partner, you know, and were doing all of this work about men inequality that, you know, uh, a self-proclaimed feminist, I believe. And then his wife turned around to him one day and was like... You know? And I've heard this quite a lot. I've heard from my successful female friends that part of the reason they think they can't find a man is that men feel emasculated by their success. And on the counterpoint, I'm wondering if it goes the other way.

    4. EPEsther Perel52:10

       Can I take this a little differently?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett52:11

       Sure. Please, whatever.

    6. EPEsther Perel52:13

       Emasculation is a word that doesn't exist in the feminine. It's always been a masculine concern, which is part of why I said to you that masculinity is an identity that constantly has to prove itself.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett52:28

       Mm-hmm.

    8. EPEsther Perel52:29

       If it was so solid, it wouldn't have to constantly have to show you that it really is serious and it, it's, it's the real thing. There is, you know, those things do not translate on the feminine side. The word loser doesn't exist in the feminine either.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett52:45

       Hmm.

    10. EPEsther Perel52:46

        And this is historical. This is not new. That men have had the challenge with powerful women is not new. That women have wanted men to be both powerful and nurturing is not new. That fathers have often been as tender toward their... I think that there's a, um, the, for me, the qu- the, the, the engagement with some of your question is that it plays into a whole discourse about men and women that, at this point, somehow puts them completely apart, each one kind of more and more angry at the other side, and I don't really wanna participate in that. The women are talking about the useless this, and the men are talking about the bitches that, and I don't find that helpful. People... I don't think it's true. I think there are fathers and men all over the world doing everything they can to save their family, their wives, their m- You know, it has nothing to do just with how much they earn. The world is filled with people who wanna give a better life to their family and to their children, men who work day and night in order to provide, and I think that to turn this conversation into that section that i- in, that we are referring to, it's true, it exists, but it is not a fair rendering of men, of masculinity, of fathers, of brothers, of husbands, and of wives. Um, that there is a group of women who are outearning the men, yes. Women have outearned the men for a long time in all kinds of industries, not just at the higher levels. Um, that men have stayed, have not s- been home as primary parents. I think gay couples have shown us a whole new range. It's like it's time to kind of move on a little bit.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett54:36

        Gill, when you say that we-

    12. EPEsther Perel54:37

        You know?

    13. SBSteven Bartlett54:37

        ... we need to re- know how to relate to each other, and I think you said that it starts with being aware of ourselves.Is that roughly what you said? That it starts with having a sort of self-awareness of yourself?

    14. EPEsther Perel54:50

        I think that the, it's a constant combination because what I'm saying is that in order to have self-awareness, you need to understand your connection with others. Your self-awareness is not developed here-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett55:03

        Mm-hmm.

    16. EPEsther Perel55:03

        ... alone, by myself. You get to know yourself through your relationships with people. It is in the presence of another that we discover ourselves.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett55:12

        And this is in part why I'm asking these questions because I think for a lot of men, we've understood who we are by how we relate and the role we play for others historically. So like I kind of understand much of who I am-

    18. EPEsther Perel55:23

        Mm-hmm. Right.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett55:23

        ... when you see me with my partner-

    20. EPEsther Perel55:24

        Yeah.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett55:25

        ... because I will grab the door, I will grab the bags, I will help solve problems in a more logical, like, I'm very like, "Tell me how to fix it." And you understand the r- I understand myself by being how I relate to her, taking care of her is part of my identity to me.

    22. EPEsther Perel55:43

        Mm-hmm.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett55:43

        So in a, in such a world, I think the question becomes like, what is it to be, what is it to be a man? And if I don't know what that is, I find it harder to relate to others.

    24. EPEsther Perel55:54

        One of the things I love to do, but that's not on a societal level, that's me in my work, when I do retreats, relationship retreats, like, um, we have one that I'm gonna do in, in October in Greece. And, and I have, I do fishbowls, and I put all the men in a fishbowl or all those who identify as men for that matter. And I have the women just listen, the people around. And for an hour, they, or more or two, they talk about everything you just brought up. Their challenges, their frustrations, their hopes, their aspirations, their losses, their self-doubt, their shame, their shadows. And people listen without judgment, without opinions, just receive the, the gift of having somebody be willing to expose themselves like that. It's extremely moving. It's very beautiful. And you learn a ton, and you learn, uh, how much of your projections are, you know, standing in the way, how much you, you, you make assumptions without really knowing, how hard it is to truly listen. That's when it becomes, to me, beautiful, worthwhile, and, and things change. Things become softer, and people start to weep in front of total strangers, and you realize humanity is bigger than gender. Gender is important, super important, but there is another layer that is just our humanity. And at this moment in our society where there's tons of uncertainties, that connecting on a human level to me supersedes some of these gender wars. There's lots of it. I don't... And, and I leave it to others to comment on that. But my work is to create alternative conversations, better conversations.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett57:42

        Are you hopeful on a s-

    26. EPEsther Perel57:43

        In those moments, I'm very hopeful.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett57:45

        But are you hopeful when they leave the retreat and they go back onto the algorithms?

    28. EPEsther Perel57:51

        I hope that m- some of them will do that and some of them will actually experience a profound change, you know. But in the moment, I feel like I can do something, I'm hopeful when I can do something, when I can contribute, when I can create something that's really special. That's, that, you know, I'm not hopeful when I'm helpless-

    29. SBSteven Bartlett58:12

        Hmm.

    30. EPEsther Perel58:12

        ... when I'm passive. So in those moments, I am hopeful because something really beautiful is happening. Y- you know, when people connect at a deeper level, it is very, very meaningful. Be it at work or be it at home. I mean, it, it's anywhere at this point where I can create these connections. People... I mean, it's a sentence that I take with me all over the, all the time. It's the quality of your relationships will determine the quality of your lives. And my work is about helping you have better relationships, be more confident, be more connected. I, I, I can analyze a lot of these statistics, but I don't know what to do with it.

27. 58:53 – 1:02:41

    What Is Social Confidence?

    1. EPEsther Perel58:53

    2. SBSteven Bartlett58:53

       Be more confident?

    3. EPEsther Perel58:54

       Yes.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett58:56

       What is confidence in that regard?

    5. EPEsther Perel58:58

       Confidence is when you are able to see yourself as a flawed person and still hold yourself in high regard. That's from my friend, Terry Real. But it is a great definition of confidence. It's not when I, um, when I know, when I'm sure. It's none of that. It's actually when I see myself as flawed, but I still hold myself in high regard. That means I'm confident.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett59:25

       And is there, is there work one can do to get to such a place?

    7. EPEsther Perel59:28

       Yes, of course. Work and life experience and maturity.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett59:32

       But for a lot of people, their work and life experience knocks them down to make them think they're just a thwad- they're just a flawed person and they don't hold enough.

    9. EPEsther Perel59:41

       Yeah, I, that's what I thought when I was in my 20s and 30s too. And if I made a mistake, I could obsess about it for three weeks. Now, it's three hours, sometimes three days if it's really bad. But, you know, you do, you, you learn to accept. You make mistakes and life goes on and you try again.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett59:58

        So there's no shortcut to confidence?

    11. EPEsther Perel1:00:00

        No, no, no, no, no.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:02

        Is there anything that accelerates?

    13. EPEsther Perel1:00:02

        No. It builds on itself. The nice thing about it is that it builds on itself. It adds layer by layer, step by step.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:11

        Is there anything one can do to accelerate that process?

    15. EPEsther Perel1:00:14

        Why?

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:15

        So that we can become more confident quicker.

    17. EPEsther Perel1:00:18

        No, that's called arrogance.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:19

        Hmm.

    19. EPEsther Perel1:00:20

        (laughs) When a, when a, when a 22-year-old's, you know... Sometimes it's arrog- I mean, there... Listen, there are things you can feel confident about very early on and, and you've tried them. And then there's other things. It's also not, "I am confident." I'm confident about certain things. You can trust me on some things. You should not trust me to get you to a certain place, neither on time, neither without getting lost. So I've zero confidence in that area, but I'm quite confident in some of the things that I do. And confidence doesn't mean that I know or that I'm right-... it's that I'm prepared to do things and be mistaken and not know, and try again.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:00

        Two different people can go through the same experience and one of their confidence can build and the other one can lose confidence.

    21. EPEsther Perel1:01:07

        Yes, that is the biggest mystery question. Why two people with the same story? For one, it becomes what brings their resilience and what gives them the drive and what makes them be people that are engaged with life and the world, and for the other person, it's what broke them. It's what crushed them. It's what makes it so impossible for them to actually put one foot in front of the other. And if you can ever tell me why this in versus that, you know, why this person to... It is one of the great mystery questions, for any therapist for that matter, and in general. Why the same circumstances build the strength of one and become the weakness of the other?

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:53

        There's clearly some kind of a pair of sunglasses in between what happened and how I perceived it or something. There must be some kind of-

    23. EPEsther Perel1:02:00

        I, you know, there's lots of things, but what we do know is that for many people w- who have major adverse circumstances but manage to turn, use them and turn them and, and really make a beautiful life for themselves, it, usually there was one d- defining factor that differentiates them from everybody else who had similar circumstances, is that they had somebody who believed in them. A coach, a teacher, a neighbor. Not necessarily a, a family member, actually, 'cause the adversity is often in the family. So somebody who believed in you when you didn't believe in yourself and didn't give up even

28. 1:02:41 – 1:13:54

    What Gives a Traumatic Experience Meaning?

    1. EPEsther Perel1:02:41

       when you were fucking up.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:42

       I had, um, a lady called Dr. Lisa Feldman on the podcast recently, who's a neuroscientist, and one of the things she said to me has really stayed with me, and I think about it a lot and I talk about it a lot, which is, um, she said to me, she told me the story of a young lady who grew up and had some, uh, an aggressive uncle who would like beat her.

    3. EPEsther Perel1:03:00

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:01

       And this young lady, she was good in school, she slept well. Everything was fine. And then many years later, this young lady was watching Oprah Winfrey's show-

    5. EPEsther Perel1:03:08

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:08

       ... and it was about domestic abuse.

    7. EPEsther Perel1:03:09

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:10

       And there was women on there crying and talking about-

    9. EPEsther Perel1:03:13

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:13

        ... their trauma and all those things. And essentially, this young lady suddenly started to experience the symptoms of trauma.

    11. EPEsther Perel1:03:20

        Mm-hmm.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:21

        Unproductive in education, couldn't sleep as well, and visibly traumatized. The trauma hadn't appeared, hadn't, there was, wasn't symptomatic up until she watched this show-

    13. EPEsther Perel1:03:32

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:32

        ... with Oprah. And it made me think that is there a possibility that some of our trauma, not all of it, but some of it, is like contagious, i.e. we give meaning to it when someone tells us the meaning of what happened to us. Like, are we giving meaning to the things that happen to us? And it goes to what we were saying here about you can go through the same two d- thing but interpret it differently. Do we inherit the meaning externally from somewhere? You know, it's interesting 'cause I think about this a lot with, uh, things like anxiety. I'm like, it feels like, you know, I know the world has changed and we're less connected, but it does feel like had I not known that a- anxiety existed, I probably, I'm unsure whether I, I would've personally experienced it. I think that th- the anxiety culture actually kinda made me anxious. It made me label the feeling. And I'm just wondering if you have a perspective on this idea that we like give meaning to our experience and then that-

    15. EPEsther Perel1:04:30

        Yes, of course. All the time. We give meaning to everything. We are meaning-making machines. And if you don't do an individual meaning attribution, you get a collective, cultural, social attribution. In our society, we may call it anxiety. In another society, we may call it the ancestors are unhappy.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:52

        Mm-hmm.

    17. EPEsther Perel1:04:53

        Somebody is, a spirit is knocking at your door. Somebody has not been properly mourned. Somebody is being, um, degraded. And so, so there's every, every ill ease, every disease has a story, has a meaning, has an attribution. The words change. That's on a cultural level. I think it's very important to not just individualize these things and think, "I give meaning." You, d- we give the meaning that our culture has taught us to give. You've learned, you, you, so you've kind of become, you're part of the anxiety generation, so you put, you give words of anxiety, stress, burnout. There's a whole lingo that is r- that didn't exist 40 years ago, by the way. I mean, those words existed, but they were not nearly in the vernacular of the moment. They were not part of the therapy-speak of du jour, you know? They were not on TikTok. So there were other words that people used, and you know, every century has certain names. Hysteria, we don't hear much about hysteria these days. That was a 19th-century thing.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:01

        It's mental health now.

    19. EPEsther Perel1:06:02

        You know. So we change the words, but we still are trying to give meaning to our ill ease.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:12

        I guess this is a question of identity as well, which is who do I think I am? And who I think I am will probably become who I am, at least as it relates to relating to people.

    21. EPEsther Perel1:06:23

        No.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:24

        No?

    23. EPEsther Perel1:06:24

        Who do you think you are is part of who you are, and how other people see you is also a part of who you are. We are constantly looking at ourselves from the inside and from the outside. We do not exist without the inter- integration of also the gaze from the outside in. And it's a two-way street all the time.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:47

        So if I think I'm a late person, you said, you know, get there on time, um, then I'm likely to be late-... off more because I can, I've identified with that, becomes part of my character. It starts to become how I predict my future. And Lisa Feldman was saying to me that the brain is this prediction machine, so it's like predicting, um, what to, what it will do next based on the past. So my identity is like a prediction of what I'll become, and, you know, the same, I think of this, maybe the same in relationships.

    25. EPEsther Perel1:07:15

        Your behavior may be a prediction, but that doesn't mean your identity. Don't confuse identity with behavior. It's- it's- it's, they are connected, but your identity is a lot more than your behavior.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:28

        Mm-hmm.

    27. EPEsther Perel1:07:31

        You know, at JFK, there are three lines at the airport.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:35

        Yeah.

    29. EPEsther Perel1:07:36

        One is for the tourists, one is for the American passport holder, and one is for the resident alien. The tourist may have been living in the States for years, but they don't have the papers, so the internal definition is not recognized by the external.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:54

        Mm-hmm.
29. 1:13:54 – 1:16:53

    Would You Delete Mobile Phones to Help Connection?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:55

       So if I made you president of the entire world-

    2. EPEsther Perel1:13:57

       (laughs)

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:57

       ... and your job was to prevent the- this social atrophy, this decay of social connections and relationships, and you had to take three steps on a global basis to, they can be drastic steps. You can delete mobile phones.

    4. EPEsther Perel1:14:10

       Oh, god. Uh-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:11

       You, they can be any drastic step you wanna take.

    6. EPEsther Perel1:14:13

       ... I think that things are lived in the details, not in the big things.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:17

       Okay.

    8. EPEsther Perel1:14:18

       You know, where was I recently? I went to a place and I remember making the comment, everybody says hello. People said hello. People were friendly. When you e- when you went into a place, when you were on the street, when you went... I was just like, I said, "Oh my God, I have e- I have not been in a place..." It felt small enough, but it wasn't small-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:43

       Mm-hmm.

    10. EPEsther Perel1:14:43

        ... where people kept saying, "Hello. Have a nice day. This looks very good." You know, so it's that basic, I think-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:51

        So you'd make it a law?

    12. EPEsther Perel1:14:53

        No, not law.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:54

        That you have to say hello.

    14. EPEsther Perel1:14:54

        No, I don't l- legislate these things at- at- at all. I think it's more of a, of a, a it's a cultural shift. It's a, it's a return to, to, to practices that still are prevalent in many other parts of the world.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:09

        Talking to strangers.

    16. EPEsther Perel1:15:10

        Yes, talking to strangers.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:11

        Okay, so you're gonna make it illegal not to talk to strangers.

    18. EPEsther Perel1:15:12

        It's an incredible thing to talk to strangers. Um-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:16

        So Esther Perel makes it-

    20. EPEsther Perel1:15:17

        (laughs)

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:18

        ... illegal not to talk to strangers during this-

    22. EPEsther Perel1:15:19

        Illegal. No, no, I said don't bring the law into it.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:22

        (laughs)

    24. EPEsther Perel1:15:22

        It's much more art than law.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:25

        Okay.

    26. EPEsther Perel1:15:25

        Anybody who these days can make people laugh or sing together is doing holy work. So go sing with people or go-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:35

        Why?

    28. EPEsther Perel1:15:35

        Because when you sing together, you create r- you create a collective resonance. You c- you actually, it are bringing that resonance that it, it's very empathic, it's very kind, it's compassionate, it's caring, it's playful. It brings out a whole set of other things in people. And the third thing would be teach people how to have conflict. You asked me before when, when, when, when you argue with your p- with your partner. I think, I think that the m- the majority of our arguments are about three basic things. And this is based on, on Howard Markman's work, but you know, it's not the issue you're fighting about. Actually, what you can often ask is, what is it that you're fighting for? And what people fight for when they argue whatever thing they're having a spat about, they fight for power and control. Who makes the decision and whose priorities matter most? They fight for trust, for care and closeness. Can I trust you? Do you have my back? Can I lean on you? Can I rely on you? Will you show up for me? And they fight for respect and recognition. Do you value me? Do I matter?

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:51

        And does this all translate

30. 1:16:53 – 1:21:51

    Can Social Connection Principles Apply to a Workplace?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:53

       to work? You've, you've now started doing a lot more work with businesses and companies around sort of their working culture and connection and relationships in the workplace. All, all of those things you just listed there, are they also the reasons why our relationships are successful or unsuccessful in a work environment?

    2. EPEsther Perel1:17:07

       Yeah, absolutely. So I actually have been d- working with corporations and in the business world for quite a while, um, and have been talking in, and speaking in, for c- with corporations and companies. But what is new is that I, I became an advisor to a number of companies, in particular in this case with Culture Amp.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:27

       Yeah.

    4. EPEsther Perel1:17:28

       And, and the reason that became such a wonderful collaboration is because I brought my clinical expertise and they're bringing massive amounts of data science, people science, 1.5 billion experience survey points. I mean, it's just like, so it's no no- no longer just my intuitive sense. It's backed, it's... And we created this card game because my original card game, people wanted, the, the corporate was demanding for it, but every time they had to take out the cards with the pink triangles, which were the sex questions-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:04

       (laughs)

    6. EPEsther Perel1:18:04

       ... in order to make it work safe, (laughs) safe for work. So I said, "Okay, let's create a game just for the workplace that will create meaningful relationships at work." And what's fascinating is that what the research showed is that there are four major relational pillars that actually sustain this quality of relationships in the workplace, and they are directly connected to these three things that I said we fight for. So one was trust.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:36

       Mm-hmm.

    8. EPEsther Perel1:18:37

       One was belonging.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:38

       Okay, so on trust, how do I know, what, what is trust in specific terms? What does that mean?

    10. EPEsther Perel1:18:43

        Trust is a leap of faith. Trust is a sense that d- this is really, it's an active engagement with the unknown, says Rachel Botsman. It's like, trust is not, I know for sure. Trust is, I don't know for sure and I'm willing...... to believe it.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:03

        And-

    12. EPEsther Perel1:19:03

        That's the definition of the word trust.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:06

        And in a work context, what does that mean?

    14. EPEsther Perel1:19:07

        It means that I can rely on you-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:10

        Yeah.

    16. EPEsther Perel1:19:11

        ... on my team-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:12

        Yeah.

    18. EPEsther Perel1:19:12

        ... on my manager. Um, that you, uh, you have my back.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:17

        Yeah.

    20. EPEsther Perel1:19:18

        That you're not gonna betray me, you're not going to put your interests ahead of mine. You are not going to take credit where the, when it's not yours. Um, that you care about me, and that we are part of something together. So trust then connects directly to a sense of belonging, that we are part of a group, of a company, and, and, and I get a certain sense of who I am by virtue of my sense of connection to this group, and the group defines me and gets my contribution. So it's a mutual experience. Mutuality is essential to living organisms, be it in nature or in social ecological systems. And there is recognition. It means, means that there is respect, that I feel valued, that I feel that my, that I contribute and that it is recognized. This is essential because I could achieve and perform and meet productivity goals and all of that, but if nobody pays attention to it, it doesn't really meet the need. But the biggest one is the collective resilience. To me, that's the one that really stands out because resilience isn't an individual matter only. It's not just a set of traits that exists inside of you and that you need to tap into in order to face adversity and all of that. Resilience is how we, at this point in particular, are able to respond creatively and adaptively and flexibly to all the changes that are happening. The workplace is in massive flux. Massive flux. And from a relational point of view, it's huge. And it is basically at this point becoming no longer just the soft skills. It's becoming the new bottom line, basically.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:07

        Esther, thank you so much. Thank you so much for the work that you do. I, I, when I met you the first time, I was convinced that you were in fact an alien from another planet because you have an ability to understand situations, um, at a deeper, more intuitive level than anyone I've ever met, specifically as it relates to just like the human condition in the way that we are, the excuses they make, the patterns of a human, and it really like shocked me.

    22. EPEsther Perel1:21:29

        Mm-hmm.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:29

        You were able to see through me in a way that I did not like (laughs) 'cause I'm like... But I appreciate it. Um, and it's really remarkable. There's very few people I've ever met that are like that, that have that ability. It's a really, really special thing. Um, and it's been a cause of so much healed and cured and fixed problems for so many

31. 1:21:51 – 1:24:14

    How Are You Going to Adapt to a World of AI and Robots?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:51

       of us. We have a tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they leave it for. The question left for you is, how are you going to adapt to a world of AI and robots?

    2. EPEsther Perel1:22:09

       I am going to, uh, use AI as a tool, as I just did an hour before I came here. I was in a meeting, and we were generating ideas, and, uh, and one of us asked the AI, uh, exactly this. Uh, "What would you see is the next step in the collaboration between... What would be bold collaborations between Esther Perel and Culture Amp?" The very company that with whom I created the cards. And the AI gave us incredible ideas, but it was both. We had AI, and we had the people.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:49

       Mm-hmm.

    4. EPEsther Perel1:22:49

       The people could use the AI. The AI became way more relevant because it had the people.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:54

       Mm-hmm.

    6. EPEsther Perel1:22:55

       So as long as I can use it as a tool, um, to foster the communication and to generate ideas and between me and others, I think that, um, I am still shaping it, and it is helping me. I would hope that it doesn't just begin to shape me or us all and make us into a species that none of us can yet imagine. Some people are very much looking forward to that new species. I kind of like the ones we've been.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:31

       (laughs)

    8. EPEsther Perel1:23:32

       We are imperfect creatures. We're unpredictable. But there is something fascinating about human beings that has been the core of my work.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:42

       Thank you. Again, I'll link the cards below for everyone to go and get a pair. I think I'm, I think I'm gonna use them in, at the very start of the week with my teams, so just to kind of create a bit of a space where we can connect with each other before we get into more difficult work. But also there's other sort of work environments when I have new investments and stuff like that.

    10. EPEsther Perel1:24:01

        It's really-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:02

        But I think it'll be really important.

    12. EPEsther Perel1:24:02

        ... you can do it one on one.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:03

        Yeah.

    14. EPEsther Perel1:24:03

        You can do it onboarding. You can do it offsite. But there is something about the weekly meeting, all hands on deck kind of meeting where we do a card, one person each.

Episode duration: 1:28:21