Simon Cowell: Losing My Parents Reset Every Priority I Had

Simon Cowell 0:00 It was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life. Thinking, "What have I got to live for?" And, um, oh gosh. I have to ... (whispers)

Steven Bartlett 0:16 Please welcome Simon Cowell. (audience cheers)

Simon Cowell 0:19 The scale of his success is staggering. Who's changed the landscape of television and music.

Steven Bartlett 0:24 Absolutely dreadful. As a kid, you were quite naive, weren't you?

Simon Cowell 0:27 Seriously naive.

Steven Bartlett 0:29 Trying to take on the world with a music publishing company which fails in the car park, and then-

Simon Cowell 0:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 0:33 ... you go from there to, "I'm gonna start my own record label at 24."

Simon Cowell 0:35 Mm. I met Sinitta in this club, and I thought, "I'm gonna make a record with her." I don't know how a record's made, I can't read music, but let's just do it. The first time, it flops. Second time, it flops. Even when I had the hit, I owed the bank £500,000 and I'm broke. But I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe.

Steven Bartlett 0:57 Do you remember this single? The album hits number one.

Simon Cowell 1:00 Yeah, but this was a real bittersweet time because I get a phone call which starts with, "Are you sitting down?" And I was on a downward spiral from that period. Became a ridiculous workaholic, working till 7:00 in the morning, suffering from depression. And the truth is, I still suffer from depression at times.

Steven Bartlett 1:21 What about One Direction?

Simon Cowell 1:22 The one thing I regret about One Direction is... So, boys, if you're listening...

Steven Bartlett 1:30 We've just hit six million subscribers on The Diary of a CEO, so me and my team would like to do something we've never done before as a little thank you, and we're calling it the Diary of a CEO Subscriber Raffle, and here is how it works. Every episode this month, we're going to pick three current subscribers at random, and we'll send one of you a £1,000 voucher, one of you tickets to come and watch The Diary of a CEO behind the scenes live with our team, and one of you will have a 10-minute phone call with me to discuss whatever you want to talk about. If you're a subscriber, you're in the raffle. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to do something that me and my team love doing so much. It is the greatest honor of my lifetime, and I hope it, I hope it continues, uh, off into the future. Let's get to the episode. (instrumental music plays)

Steven Bartlett 2:17 Simon, in order to understand the man that sits with me today, what is the early context that I must know about that will help me to understand the Simon Cowell that all of us know so well? What is that early context that, the oven that you were, you were cooked in?

Simon Cowell 2:40 Well, I had a happy childhood. I was always bored though, uh, really bored at school. I always wanted to have a life where I would be interested and have, have fun. When I was told, (laughs) "The school days are the best days of your life," I'm thinking, "Oh my God, this is terrible because I hate school." So, uh, I was really determined to do something where I would be actually just having fun. That's what I kept thinking to myself. And I want to start

Simon Cowell 3:17 making my own money. Um, and, and one thing my parents did do when we were very, very young... Because in those days, you could actually, even at the age of about seven or eight, you know, i- in our neighborhood, is go round to people's houses, knock on their door and say, "Can I, can I wash your car?" (laughs) "Can I mow the lawn?" Uh, 'cause my mum and dad said, um, "If we pay for the holiday, you've gotta earn your spending money." So I'm like, "Fine." So... But I used to love it. Um, if you, if you got 10 quid for, like, washing a car, I mean it was like bingo. It was the best feeling, so...

Steven Bartlett 3:56 You mentioned your mother there. Can you tell me about the influence that your mother and your father, Julie and Eric-

Simon Cowell 4:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:03 ... had on you?

Simon Cowell 4:04 When I lost them, um, particularly when I lost my mum, because then it was kind of final. It was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life. I mean it, uh, ver- It was as bad as things could possibly be. Um, and we just had the most amazing relationship. Um, uh, my mum was the disciplinarian. I remember I must've been about four years old, maybe even younger, and,

Simon Cowell 4:32 and I remember where I was. I was sitting in the car, and she said something to me, and she said, "Manners maketh the man." And I'm like, "Well, what does that mean?" She goes, "Manners maketh the man." And then she explained what that meant, and it's always stuck in my head 'cause it's such an old-fashioned way of saying, "Be polite."

Steven Bartlett 4:52 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 4:52 Both my parents were very kind of, uh, old school. Um, they were very respectful to everyone, I always remember that, and I looked up to both of them. And I always knew at any time I could go to them, uh, when I needed advice, um, and they would always give me the right steer. And they were always there for me.

Steven Bartlett 5:16 Your work ethic is renowned.

Simon Cowell 5:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:19 I've spoken to a lot of people on your team currently, um, and one of the things they always described is through... Much of what got you to where you are today is a insane work ethic, and when I say insane, I mean insane with every sense of the word.

Simon Cowell 5:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:33 Where does that come from? Because, you know, you said your childhood was happy.

Simon Cowell 5:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:39 And typically when someone has a pretty insane work ethic, y- y- there's some kind of trauma, it's somewhat, you know... But for you, I couldn't quite identify what that was.

Simon Cowell 5:50 It, it probably comes from, um... My dad, uh, worked for a large corporation, um, and before he retired, he said to me, "Don't work for a large company, because when you're, you know, 65 or whatever-"... they're gonna retire you and you'll never hear from them again. And that is exactly what happened to my dad, and it was heartbreaking because he did work hard, he was a very loyal person, you know, to the company he worked for. When he passed away, you know, he didn't have any money. That's probably what made me realize, A, I don't wanna be in that position, and secondly, the only way I can achieve that is by working for myself. And I always had this crazy vision of, "If I work for a company and I don't get on well with the boss, he's gonna probably invite me to his house and talk about golf." I just always had this in my head thinking, I couldn't think of anything worse than having to suck up to a boss who doesn't like me. And the reason I kept thinking my boss would never like me is because I was so bad at school-

Steven Bartlett 7:11 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 7:12 ... and my teachers were quite strict with me, so I thought work was probably gonna be the same.

Steven Bartlett 7:16 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 7:17 Um, so, uh, that's what

Simon Cowell 7:20 drove me. And, you know, my dad also, you know, he knew, you know, 'cause I- I- I didn't do very well with my exam results, and he did say to me, "It's quite clear, Simon, you're not gonna make university. Um, have you made up your mind what you wanna do?" And I said, "It's I wanna do something, I think, in entertainment. I'm not sure what." And he said, "Look, whatever you do, you're gonna have to be patient because it's not gonna happen overnight. You- if you wanna do well, you've gotta learn to be good at it, and it could take 20 years, it could take 30 years, but understand that." And I'm like, "I'm fine with that," and I really was fine with that.

Steven Bartlett 8:02 Your dad seems like a man that gave a lot of actual advice, a lot of advice that, frankly, I read your book as well, that you can still remember to this day. 'Cause my parents taught me things, but vicariously, by watching them. I can't think of a single sentence that my- my parents said to me that was advice. But you've got so much advice that you recite from your father, which I think is pretty remarkable.

Simon Cowell 8:21 Well, yeah. He... I mean, o- one of the, um, the things that always stuck in my mind, and it's quite an odd thing to say to a 12-year-old, he said, "Everyone in life, Simon, has a sign on their head and it says, 'Make me feel important,' and I want you to think about that." And I'm thinking, "Sign on their head? Well, I have no idea what that means. Why did he say that? Maybe he's had a couple of drinks."

Steven Bartlett 8:47 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 8:48 Um, and then I forget when I realized what it meant, but, boy, did that stick in my mind, which was, if you wanna do well in life, it's gonna be a team effort and make sure you recognize every single person on that team. And so if I walk into a room, um, I instantly, um... I think pretty much from the point I understood it, is that I can walk into a room and I can see... I see everything in one- in- in one moment. I see the person who's opening the door, I see the person who's doing a particular job. So in other words, I see the room always as a team.

Steven Bartlett 9:33 And you did that the minute you walked into this room 'cause there was, what, 10 people here? From the person that opened the door, the person that got the coffee, the people in- you know, taking care of the cameras. And you, and this is rare, and obviously I've done 300 of these conversations, you went around to every single person in this room and took an interest in every single person, which is... it's not typical-

Simon Cowell 9:51 Ah.

Steven Bartlett 9:52 ... especially when you're dealing with people that are- have a- have a big sort of public profile. We've had people walk in, completely ignore me for 10 minutes-

Simon Cowell 9:58 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 9:58 ... sit down and text and take phone calls. (laughs)

Simon Cowell 10:01 Nice. Uh, I- unfortunately, I've seen a lot of that as well.

Steven Bartlett 10:05 Yeah.

Simon Cowell 10:06 Uh, and I see an awful lot of hyp- hypocrisy, which are people, yes, who- who, uh, on the outside, you know, they- they show one side of it. I then always see that person when they're off camera and who they really are, and, um, and they are the opposite. They will just, like you said, completely ignore everybody. Um, the worst thing is, and I had this as I- as I was, you know, trying to get my career started, there's nothing worse than when you're talking to somebody and as- as they're talking to you, they're- they're looking for someone more important than you. I- I remember feeling that, you know, at- at- at an early age in my career and how that felt, and it was very demeaning. And I suppose, you know, those two, uh, stories about my mum and dad, they were really, really, really important things, and they must have known that I- that that would,

Simon Cowell 11:02 uh, mean something for me later on in life. And I've said the same thing, uh, to my son, Eric, you know?

Steven Bartlett 11:08 Yeah.

Simon Cowell 11:08 I just (laughs) remember the first time I said to him, "Eric, manners maketh the man."

Steven Bartlett 11:12 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 11:12 He was about two, and he's like looking at me. It's like... And then he repeated it, uh, back completely wrong, and I said, "No, say it again." And then eventually, I think he must have been about four, and he was very polite to someone, and I, and I said, "I'm very proud of you, Eric." And he went, "Manners maketh the man, Daddy."

Steven Bartlett 11:33 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 11:33 And I'm like, "You've got it." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 11:36 (laughs) Maybe you needed a bit of patience. Try to-

Simon Cowell 11:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:39 ... indoctrinate the two-year-old. (laughs)

Simon Cowell 11:43 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 11:43 But you turned, you turned to your father and you expressed that you pursuit entertainment-

Simon Cowell 11:48 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 11:49 ... and music. What, at 12 year... How old were you when you first said that to your father?

Simon Cowell 11:52 I probably... I was... Yeah, I would've been about 12-ish. Um, there was nothing I excelled in at school at all-

Steven Bartlett 12:01 You were surrounded by music people and entertainment people where you lived. I think your dad, at one point, worked at EMI?

Simon Cowell 12:07 Yeah. He-

Steven Bartlett 12:07 Briefly.

Simon Cowell 12:08 He, he worked for their real estate division.

Steven Bartlett 12:11 Is, is that where music... 'cause I'm trying to figure out where music came from. I've, I've got this kid that's naughty, not paying attention in school. I read the stories about you holding up a bus with a spud gun.

Simon Cowell 12:21 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 12:21 (laughs) I should have said that was your dream. But the... (laughs) They called the police because-

Simon Cowell 12:25 They did.

Steven Bartlett 12:26 ... you were holding up a, a bus with a spud gun.

Simon Cowell 12:27 I was very naughty.

Steven Bartlett 12:27 And I'm thinking, "Where does music come into it?" 'Cause it doesn't appear that you were playing a huge amount of music or...

Simon Cowell 12:32 Well, I, I loved buying records.

Steven Bartlett 12:35 Yeah.

Simon Cowell 12:35 Um, so just, you know, going into a record shop, um, and saving up enough money for your, you know, to buy a single or an album was just everything. So most of my spending money would go on, on records. I, I can vividly remember going into my bedroom with a brand new album and just loving listening to every single track on it. It was such an exciting feeling.

Steven Bartlett 13:04 So when you leave school and you go off and try and find your own career, you worked a, a few jobs. You were a trainee at Tesco, I think, at one point.

Simon Cowell 13:11 Well, uh, (laughs) my dad, uh, he said, uh, "Okay, uh, you failed all your exams, uh, twice. Uh, so you're gonna have to get a job, Simon. Um, uh, and since you're not qualified, uh, what about Tescos?" I don't know where that came from. I'm like, "Doing what?" And he said, "Well, you know, you could, uh, end up maybe managing a store or something." And I'm like, "Okay." So I turned (laughs) up at this interview, and I remember I wore jeans, and before I even sat down, the guy said, uh, "How dare you? Um, how dare you come in here wearing jeans?" And I'm like, "I'm sorry?" He said, "Well, how dare you?" And, uh, I was so annoyed. I said, "Do you know what? I'm really glad I came here because I never wanna work for you or your company. And by the way, your office looks like..." (laughs) And walked out. So that didn't go down well. My mom, uh, made an application for me to work for the civil service. Um, so I was interviewed to be, I think, like a law clerk or something. Um, and that... And they actually had a chart which told you exactly how much money you would make at the age of 64, and I'm like, "That's not gonna happen." Then my dad thought I should be in the building trade and I was gonna have to work at this sort of building site, whatever it was, for two years to learn everything, and I thought, "No." Um, and then eventually I got a job, uh, as a runner at, um, Elstree Studios. And the second I got that job, it was, like, brilliant. Uh, I was so happy. And, and it, and it was hard work.

Steven Bartlett 15:10 Why? Why was that job the... You described it, I think, as a Sliding Doors moment in, in your life. Why was that job... Why was that your-

Simon Cowell 15:17 Uh-

Steven Bartlett 15:17 ... capt your heart?

Simon Cowell 15:18 ... I'd kind of worked out that, how to become a director. You know, you have to, uh, become a third assistant, second assistant, first assistant, two years in editing suites, blah, blah, blah. Uh, and I was r- I was up for that. I thought, "This is something I, I think I would love." Unfortunately, the contract I had only lasted for two months, and the executive producer, uh, was so mean, uh, that he said after two months, "Well, that's it. We don't need you anymore." But the PAs liked me so much, they paid for my salary. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:56 Really?

Simon Cowell 15:56 So every... But he was so awful, this guy. Every time he would come into the building, I used to have to hide under their desks. And he caught me one day and he said, "What are you still doing here?" And I said, "Well, nothing." He said, "Well, who's paying you?" And I said, "Nobody." And he said, "Well, you're not allowed to be here." And he threw me out. And then I nearly got a job on...

Simon Cowell 16:25 Actually, I was offered a job as a runner on The Shining.

Steven Bartlett 16:29 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 16:29 They were just making that. I, I saw the hotel being built on the lot when I was a runner. Um, my mom, at the same time, had made an application for me to work in the post room at EMI Music Publishing.

Steven Bartlett 16:41 You're how old at this point? 16, 17?

Simon Cowell 16:42 I was about 17 at that point, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:45 17.

Simon Cowell 16:45 So I had this choice of I could become a runner, uh, uh, at a big film studio on what looked like a great movie-

Steven Bartlett 16:58 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 16:59 ... or I could go (laughs) in the post room at EMI Music Publishing, and something made me go. And I'll tell you what it was. I passed the studio where I was gonna work as a runner one particular day, and there was a queue of people just outside the building, and I went up to someone and I said, "You know, what's everyone queuing for?" And they went, "Work." And I said, "What do you mean?" They said, "Well, um, no one here is on contract, and, uh, when a new production, you know, uh, happens, uh, it's pretty much first come, first served." And I'm thinking, "God, this doesn't sound very reliable. Um, I don't like the idea of that, so I think I'll take my chances and I'll work in the music publishing post room."

Steven Bartlett 17:46 In the po-... When you say the post room-

Simon Cowell 17:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:48 ... do you mean where the post is sent?

Simon Cowell 17:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:50 (laughs) Okay.

Simon Cowell 17:50 Yeah, literally. So it was... It wasn't a very nice building. Um, uh, and our... It was almost like being in a garage where we were. It was definitely a basement, um-... uh, the, there were two (laughs) guys who used to work. I think one of them was called Harry or something. They were probably in their mid-to-late 60s. And I'd turn up all cocky, you know, uh, "Right, I've got a job at the post room and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that," and they were like, "Just make us a cup of tea, son," and blah, blah, blah. But it wa- it was good beca- uh, because, uh, I did get a chance to understand what everybody did in, in, in the company. And I, I think I was making 18 pounds a week at that point, and as the months wore on, because I thought, "Someone's gonna realize I'm really talented and offer me a great job." And I literally would walk into, uh, everyone's offices pretty much every day and say, "Can, can I have a job, a better job?" And there's nothing going. I, I literally... Even the managing director, I, I just walked in one day and I said, "I'm Simon," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, uh, "Can I have a job because I'm really passionate..." and he just threw me out of his office. Um, so-

Steven Bartlett 19:07 Were you asking questions about the industry to those people in those offices?

Simon Cowell 19:10 Always. Yeah. Every time. Every time. There were a few people who were really, really kind to me and they explained what they did. They un- they explained to me how music publishing worked, what they do for the writers, the catalogs, everything. So I started to get an understanding of how the music business worked. I also glimpsed some of the checks that were coming in, being in the mail room, uh, and my jaw dropped. Um, seeing how much Kate Bush, for instance, earned, it was like, "Bloody hell." (laughs) If you do well in this business, there's a lot of money. I had no idea.

Steven Bartlett 19:53 There's something about that in terms of, like, career advice, because I really heard that you were... even though you were in the post room, you were peppering people with lots of questions.

Simon Cowell 20:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:02 Now, there's a lot of, you know, there's

Steven Bartlett 20:03 a lot of people working in a lot of jobs right now who might not have, uh, understood the importance of being curious, even if you're at the very start of your career or the bottom of the proverbial ladder.

Simon Cowell 20:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:15 But that would seem to be really pivotal, because there's a lot of people that would work in a post room and know nothing else but the, but the post room.

Simon Cowell 20:19 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:20 But you f- you were annoying people.

Simon Cowell 20:23 I was, actually. Maybe in a kind of a charmingly annoying way. Um, I was always, you know, very polite. I was very on time. I would always say, "Here's your, um, uh, mail, sir, ma'am. Is there anything else I can do for you? And while I'm here," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, uh, and so, uh, I was sort of like the company pet. However, it did start to gall on me after a while about how little money I was making and my brother making a lot of money now being, uh, an estate agent. And I, and, and I wasn't offered a, a job out of the mail room. I thought it was gonna happen after about a year. After 18 months, nothing. And so I, I said, "Right, nothing's happening here. I'm gonna become an estate agent." And my dad, because he did have connections with property, he got me to work for a company called Hillier, Parker May & Rowden. Now, even by the name, you can just tell the kind of people who worked there.

Steven Bartlett 21:30 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 21:30 I mean, they were just awful, awful people. Really snobby, uh, really mean, really rude, and after a month, uh, my mum just, uh, said to me, "You're really unhappy, aren't you?" And I said, "Yes, I'm really unhappy. I hate this." Um, and then my dad, uh, knew the guy who ran EMI Music Publishing. Now, now this is where I was, uh, in the post room. And I don't even really think he connected me with my dad, because my dad actually said to him, "I can't believe after 18 months you didn't, you know, give Simon at least a little promotion." He went, "Oh, I didn't realize that was your son," or so he claims. I, I'll never know. Um, anyway, the next thing is an opening suddenly arrives and, and my mum, I remember her face, she said, "I've got some really exciting news for you." And I said, "What?" She said, "I think, uh, there's a, uh, a better job for you at EMI Music Publishing and you've got to have an interview." And it was working in the international department of EMI Music Publishing, which basically means the, uh, writers that were signed, say, in America, Germany, whatever, this department administered their copyrights.

Steven Bartlett 22:57 Right.

Simon Cowell 22:58 Um, and the job that became available was a song plugger, which meant, um, m- all of the hundreds of thousands or, if not millions, of songs they published, my job was to get other people to cover those songs so they could generate more money.

Steven Bartlett 23:17 Ah, okay.

Simon Cowell 23:17 Um, and to do that, uh, it was quite a difficult job because it was the country music division.

Steven Bartlett 23:26 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 23:26 Now, at that point, country was not very popular in the UK and a lot of these songs were unknown. And what made it really difficult was, is that this job was actually promised to somebody else in the company. Um, and obviously it got out that I got the job because my dad helped me get the job. Forgetting the fact that I'd already worked there for 18 months. It just looked like I was given... Even though, uh, they paid, I think, 30 quid a week or something, it wasn't, like,

Simon Cowell 24:00 a high-paid job. And, uh, no one would talk to me for the first six months.... so I'm like, "This is terrible." So I locked myself into this room and I just thought, "Well, if no one's talking to me, I'm just going to listen to every one of these terrible country songs," uh, and I listened to literally thousands and thousands of songs over six months, compiled a list, and then just went out to all the record labels, met up with all- as many A&R people as I could, and said, "I think I've got a great song here and it would be perfect for one of your artists." And I did get a lot of the songs covered.

Steven Bartlett 24:42 Are you eight- what, 17, 18 years old?

Simon Cowell 24:43 I was about- probably about 18, 19 at that point. Um, and then, uh, my boss, uh, said, "I think you're really bright, Simon. Um, why don't we start a company together?" Uh, and I was like, "It's a bit early, isn't it? (laughs) I'm like 19." And he said, uh, "I've been here for 16 years. Uh, you're never gonna, uh, make much money. Um, let's just do it." Uh, "I've actually found..." He'd found someone to back us. So I met these people. They owned a recording studio. I had a really, really bad feeling and I said, "I just... I don't think I can do this. It's too early. I don't- I don't even know what I'm doing at the moment, let alone run- run my own company." And he said, "Well, I think you better go and meet these people and tell them that the answer's no." And it was- he did it, you know. He knew it was gonna happen because I went, and they persuaded me, and I went- and I went- I know- I knew I'd made a mistake. So we started this company. We had about £40,000, um, seed money. Uh, our offices were in an NCP car park. Uh, I think it actually used to be a loo. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 26:09 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 26:09 Our office, it was just so bad.

Steven Bartlett 26:12 Yeah.

Simon Cowell 26:12 Um, and I'm like, "Oh, God. What have I done? I just got this job with EMI and now I'm working in a loo in a car park and this is not gonna work." Um, and after about 18 months, I just left.

Steven Bartlett 26:31 Your own company, E&- was it E&S Music?

Simon Cowell 26:33 E&S, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:34 That's Ellis and Simon, right?

Simon Cowell 26:35 Yeah, but then I met somebody who was a manager who managed Hot Gossip. Um, and he had a really cool office in South Molton Street, and I- and I just really liked him. He was really funny. And I said, um, "Can I work for you?" And he went, "Doing what?" I said, "I wanna start a record label." He went, "Seriously?" And I said, "Well, you've got this great management company. Um, I think I- I know how to make records. Um, let's just do it." And he went, uh, "I'll pay you £40 a week," and we agreed on 55. And I'm like, "Brilliant." Uh, I don't know, I just suddenly went from feeling really, "This isn't working," to, "I've really got a feeling this is gonna work."

Steven Bartlett 27:31 You were quite naive, weren't you?

Simon Cowell 27:32 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:33 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 27:33 I mean, seriously naive. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:36 'Cause, um, it's like a kid is, like, trying to take on the world with, like, uh, his own music publishing company, which fails in a car park loo.

Simon Cowell 27:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:43 And then he goes from there to, "I'm gonna start my own record label," at, what, 20, 26, 25 years old?

Simon Cowell 27:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:48 So you start this record label with- is that Fan Fair Records?

Simon Cowell 27:51 Yeah. Um, so, um, I met Senita in this club, the Embassy Club, which was a brilliant nightclub. Um, I liked her, she liked me, and, uh, I said to her, "Oh, I run my own record label."

Steven Bartlett 28:09 Nice. (laughs)

Simon Cowell 28:10 And I thought it was a great pickup line. And she said, "Oh, I'm an artist," and I went, "Really?" I said, um, "Have you made any demos?" And she said, "Yeah," so I said, "Well, can- can we meet again?" And, uh, and we did meet again, and she did play me some demos. And I said, "Actually, you've got a really, really good recording voice." Um, and at the time, uh, there was this particular kind of, uh, sound, uh, dance music, which was really becoming popular, you know. It was all originating from, I think, um, uh, the French part of Canada, uh, where a lot of these records were originally made. They were all breaking out of gay clubs across the UK, um, and I just had this idea for Senita, which was she was so beautiful, so much fun, and I thought, "I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna make a record with her and I'm gonna break it through, uh, through the clubs across the

Simon Cowell 29:19 UK," um, and I- I just had this crazy idea in my head for a title, and I said to this, uh, guy I met, he hadn't had a hit before, um, uh, "This is Senita," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh, "I want a record. This is how I think I'm gonna break it. I want it to be called So Macho." And he, like, looked at me like, "Right." So we made two records. One was called So Macho, the other one was called... God, you've got it, Is the Other Side Cruising?

Steven Bartlett 29:54 S- this is the record.

Simon Cowell 29:55 That's it. My God. That's a great sleeve, by the way.

Steven Bartlett 29:58 It's- it's fantastic.

Simon Cowell 29:59 Yeah. That's right, So Macho and Cruising. The problem was, is the guy I was working with, um, says to me, um...... "I'm expanding into book publishing." I'm like, "Okay, fine." Um, so he didn't really take any notice of what I was doing. And then, he said to me, um, "I've been, uh, a public company, uh, you know, basically wants to buy my business, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Great. I'm shutting down the record label." I'm like, "Are you kidding? I've just, I've just made this record and I think it's gonna be a hit." And he went, "No, I'm shutting it down." And I said, "And what does that mean for me?" He said, "Well, you'll have a job." (laughs) And I said, "Look, you, I know you've made a lot of money, you're probably gonna make a ton more. Do me a favor, would you just give me £5,000? I don't want a salary, but with that money, I will m- make the video, I'll get it distributed, blah, blah, blah, recorded, video, everything." And he went, "Let me think about it." And I kept calling him over the weekend and eventually, he said, "Okay, fine, 5,000 and that's it." So I thought, "Okay, that, I think, should be enough." Um, and that was, you know, I suppose one of the biggest turning points in my life. If he had said no (laughs) at that point, I'm not sure what I would have done.

Steven Bartlett 31:28 What would you have done?

Simon Cowell 31:29 Um, I would have hustled it from somewhere. Um, because I really did believe in this. At the minute I heard the record from, I just thought, "This is gonna be a hit."

Steven Bartlett 31:40 How'd you know?

Simon Cowell 31:41 I just felt it, you know? I, I had a good... I, the, the funny thing is, when I first, when I actually made my first record, the t- uh, the producer said, "Do you wanna come down to the studio?" And I said, "No," and he said, "Why?" I said, "Because I don't wanna know how a record is made." And he said, "Why?" He said, "I s-" Because I want to listen to it as anybody who buys records. If I know how a record's made, it's gonna sound different to me. So to this day, I don't know (laughs) how a record is actually made. I don't know how it started. Does someone play a bass line or a keyboard? I mean, I literally haven't got a clue. Be-

Steven Bartlett 32:24 That's so strange.

Simon Cowell 32:25 Uh, because I know it would be an almo- uh, ah, it's like when people do magic on, on my shows. I'm not the person who goes, "I know how you did that." I go, "I believe in magic," and I will literally make myself believe in magic. Um, and with music, it was sort of the same thing, which is, I don't wanna know too much. I just, I don't wanna pretend that I can read music 'cause I can't. I don't wanna b- uh, ma- uh, make myself believe that I can be a producer 'cause I probably couldn't be a very good producer. But I n- think I could be a very good A&R person, which is find an artist, find them the right song, and then, you know, break the record. And it took me about a year and a half to break that record. Um, it was tough.

Steven Bartlett 33:20 I just wanna pause on that, what you said there about not knowing anything about music or how a m- record is made. What I, what I heard there, I guess in between the lines, is you wanna remain the listener-

Simon Cowell 33:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:32 ... and not the creator because you think it's more valuable to maintain the perspective of the consumer.

Simon Cowell 33:40 Completely. 100% that. I mean, you've hit the nail on the head.

Steven Bartlett 33:44 Yeah.

Simon Cowell 33:44 It is exactly that. And also, I didn't want to ever... Y- you know, 'cause I'd met some successful producers, you know, over the years, you know, and I'd, I c- I had this vision of-

Steven Bartlett 33:59 Sure.

Simon Cowell 33:59 ... 'cause I'd heard stories of A&R people who went into studios pretending they understood how to make a record and hadn't got a clue. In fact, (laughs) one guy actually had literally a piece of metal, uh, like a train track or something, literally a piece of iron, and he had it on his studio wall, and he called it the whack-o-meter because all these idiot A&R guys used to come in, "Yeah, don't really like the mix of the record," and he'd go, "Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Let me just adjust this."

Steven Bartlett 34:35 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 34:36 (laughs) And so he would just pull the lever down and the guys would go, "Night and day." And I couldn't think of anything more embarrassing. So I've always been the first to say, "I don't know how a record's made. I can't read music. Um, haven't really got a clue." But I think

Narrator 34:54 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 34:54 ... or the fact I do have a good ear for a hit or a potential hit.

Steven Bartlett 34:59 There's something really transferable to marketing. I've obviously spent the last 10 years working in marketing, and one of the, the most passionate things I've said on stage a gazillion times to my teams is trying to get us out of the perspective of the creator and into the perspective of the person that's going to see it out in the world. And I have to say, it is like an impossible task.

Simon Cowell 35:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:19 It sounds so simple.

Simon Cowell 35:20 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:20 And what you're describing is, is what I've fought so hard to try and con- con- convey to people.

Simon Cowell 35:26 Well, I think you can do that if, if you believe it yourself. And, and I did have this strong belief in myself-

Steven Bartlett 35:36 Yeah.

Simon Cowell 35:36 ... that finally I'd found something I could do, which was, um, make a record, you know, make a terrible (laughs) video, um, and, uh, I mean, I... 'Cause obviously we used to have to physically manufacture the records. So I didn't have a lot of credit, so I had to do a lot of deals, you know, with these people, "Look, I'll pay you if you'll make me a 10..." I think 10,000 was the minimum or something. I mean, the whole thing, what I had to go through to get this record into the charts, and it was all about getting it into the top 40, and it took me three times. First time, it flopped. Second time, it flopped. And then what I did, uh, was I, I said to the, uh, uh, warehouse, I said, "What is the problem?" They said, "Well, the record's selling."... but it's not, uh, keeps selling, Simon, but, um, it's not enough to get i- t- to get it into the 40. So I said, "Well, why don't we hold the order?"

Simon Cowell 36:44 And they said, "Well, we're not really supposed to do that."

Steven Bartlett 36:47 What does that mean?

Simon Cowell 36:48 Uh, in other words, just say it's out of stock, um, on the computer, but it's not out of stock. Just don't let them have the record when they order it. In other words, let's build up the back orders. So we built up whatever the back order was, and then all the people who'd ordered a record three months ago, four months ago, suddenly all these records arrived that week.

Steven Bartlett 37:13 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 37:14 And it worked. It got the record into the top 40. It squeezed in, and I got a breaker on Top Of The Pops, and the record just exploded after that.

Steven Bartlett 37:25 Because of circumstances heavily outside of your control, Fan Fair Records collapses-

Simon Cowell 37:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:30 ... um, owing the bank $500,000, and you're left with about £5 in your pocket, and you move back in with your parents at 30 years old, my age?

Simon Cowell 37:38 Well, it wasn't the label that owed the money. It was me. Um...

Steven Bartlett 37:43 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 37:44 Uh, because all of us were encouraged to buy shares in this company, uh, because we were told the company was doing really, really well. So the bank manager was practically forcing me to borrow money, you know, because he said the shares are gonna go up in value, um, a- and at the same time, um, I thought everything was just gonna be wonderful, so I bought a house, um, I bought a Porsche, of course, uh, uh, I had a gold credit card which no one explained to me-

Steven Bartlett 38:22 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 38:22 ... how that works in terms of the interest rates, um, so I'm living it up, um, and when it all came crashing down, uh, yeah, I owed the bank nearly £500,000, um, so I had to go in and see the bank, and they had the nice guy, and they had the not-so-nice guy, and the not-so-nice guy was, "Okay, where's the money?" "Right, well, you lent it to me. You know where, it's just gone." And the other guy was like, "Yeah, well, you know, it was partly our fault," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, so I said, "Look, all I can tell you is, uh, if you bankrupt me, I don't care, uh, because I don't have anything, um, uh, I don't have a job, uh, I don't have any income, I've just got this debt." Uh-

Steven Bartlett 39:15 The Porsch- what about the Porsche?

Simon Cowell 39:16 Hmm?

Steven Bartlett 39:16 What about the Porsche?

Simon Cowell 39:17 It all went, the whole lot. Even when I sold the house, I still owed money on the mortgage, so I, I, I was, I was on paper bankrupt, yes, so I moved back in with my mum and dad, and that was... really told me what great people they were because there wasn't one moment where either of them said, you know, "You failed," or this or that. It was like, "It's a life lesson, Simon, and you'll get over it," um, and I managed to find a bank, amazingly, to lend me 'cause I basically, I negotiated the debt down. We worked out what the interest was over the period of time, what the capital sum was, and then I got them to half that, and I said, "Somehow, I'll pay it back to you," so I found another bank who just backed me. I just sold myself, and I said, "Look, you know, I... my first record I ever made went to number two, whatever it was in the charts, sold a million copies. This is what my career's gonna be, uh, what happened was, was out of my control," and he said, "I don't know, I've got a feeling about you, um, I'm prepared to lend you some money to pay back the other bank," which meant I didn't become bankrupt, so I went, uh, back to live with my mum and dad. And it was, it actually quite an interesting time because I'm, I remember, and I've told this story a lot, is that I had to get from a particular destination in the West End to where my parents lived, and I had about £5 cash, and I remember thinking, "It's literally all the money (laughs) I've got left in, in the world, and I'm not sure the five quid's gonna cover the taxi ride home," and I think we, oh, I know, we just about made it, yeah, and I said, "I'm sorry about the tip because I haven't got any more money," um, it was about 10p or something. Uh, fortunately had a very, very good lawyer, a guy called Tony Russell, um, and I said to Tony, um, "Look, I'm in a, not in a great place." I'd met him actually because he represented George Michael, and he sued me, uh, uh, when I'd made a megamix of... which we used to do. We used to literally get in session singers and, say, Kylie Minogue, just record eight Kylie Minogue records with someone who sounded like Kylie Minogue, mix them, so we used to call them megamixes-

Steven Bartlett 42:06 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 42:06 ... and they would... they'd sell about 10,000, 20,000 copies. We used to export them all over the world. I did a Wham! one, and we got sued (laughs) by George Michael. That's how I met my lawyer, 'cause he was represe- representing George, and I said, "I'd rather you represent me next time."

Steven Bartlett 42:20 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 42:21 And he was brilliant because he said, "Look, I think, Simon, weirdly, what's happened to you is the best thing that's ever happened," and I said, "Why?" I said, "I'm broke. I don't have a job." He said-... he said, "But you've succeeded so far, Simon, with everything you, you put out." 'Cause I had had, you know, success with some other records along the way. Um, he said, "I think you should get a label deal, which means that you own, uh, part of the company with a major label." Um, so I'm like, "Okay. Uh, if you can get me, if you can get me one, brilliant." And we went to meet two companies in, on the same day, uh, BMG and Universal. And literally, uh, that day, uh, at the end of the day, Tony calls me. He said, "I've had two calls," and I go, "Go on." "Universal have said no." I'm like, "Shit." "BMG have said yes." I'm like, "Seriously?" "There's a caveat. You've got one year, and within that one year, you've gotta sell X amount of records." And I'm like, "I'll do it." And I did, and that was kinda how I got myself back up and running

Simon Cowell 43:43 again. By the way, the other thing I should mention is, I said to Tony, um, "By the way, um, I don't have any money to pay you," um-

Steven Bartlett 43:53 The lawyer?

Simon Cowell 43:53 ... the lawyer. I said, "So, you know, I- I'm not sure I can afford you," and he said, "Well, I, I believe in you, Simon. I think one day, you will end up repaying me," and I'll always remember that. Uh, and, uh, years later, of course, you know, we did a lot of deals together and, of course, I repaid him. But I mean, the fact that he was there for me at that moment, I mean, that was, again, a life-changing moment for me.

Steven Bartlett 44:25 There's these people throughout your story that seem to be so critical, um, mentors, people that were there w- to catch you when you fell and treated you in a pleasant way. One of those, as well, was Peter Waterman?

Simon Cowell 44:36 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:36 You described meeting, "The day I met Peter Waterman was easily the most important day of my career." You said that in your book, I Don't Mean To Be Rude But.

Simon Cowell 44:43 Ah. Well, it was because, um, I, I, I, I realized very, very quickly, um, that it was unlikely I was gonna be able to sign or find singer-songwriters, so I was gonna have to find artists who needed songs written for them.

Steven Bartlett 45:06 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 45:07 Um, so I needed to find the best pop writers, um, you know, literally in the world. I heard this record on the radio, and I just thought, "Wow, whoever this is, this record is brilliantly made." Um, and I found out it was produced by Stock, Aitken and Waterman. No one had heard of them at this point. So I call up Pete, and I said, "Hi, my name's Simon Cowell, blah, blah, blah. And, uh, can I meet you?" And he went, "Yeah." So I went down to his studios and we met. We were sitting on these, literally, wooden boxes. The studio was, like, a real mess. And I said, "I've got this, um, uh, record, uh, I'm about to put out." And he put on So Macho, took it off. "That's a hit." I went, "Yeah, I know. Will you produce her follow-up?" And he went, "No." I said, "What do you mean, no?" I thought I, I thought I was doing him a favor. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 46:07 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 46:07 And he went, um, "I'm too busy." And I said, "Doing what?" I mean, literally, the place was falling apart. And he gave me this awful wink. He went, "You'll see." And then, the next three to six months, the whole Stock, Aitken and Waterman explosion just happened. 'Cause obviously Pete had been make- making other records in the meantime which no one had heard, and out of nowhere, it, all of his records were just hits. So I thought, "Okay, I've got to persuade him to write Sunita's follow-up."

Steven Bartlett 46:41 Right.

Simon Cowell 46:42 So I just, uh, used to turn up at his studio literally every single day and, uh, make tea, um, sit in the studios, blah, blah, blah. And they were so busy, they didn't really notice me. And after about a year and a half, Pete was in the studio, and he turns around and he goes, "Why are you always here?" And I said, "Well, I'm trying to work out how you do it." And he went, "I'm not paying you." I said, "I d- I don't wanna get paid, I just, I want you to one day write her follow-up." And... A few months after that, I was in my office, I get a phone call, "I've got you hit, mate." And I got in a cab, went down to his studio, and he played me the demo of Toy Boy, and I thought, "That's gonna be a gigantic record for her, internationally as well, I could feel it." Um, and Pete,

Simon Cowell 47:41 you know, made everything... 'Cause Pete, again, I mean, Pete will pretend... Unlike me, he'll say, "Oh, of course I know how to produce records," blah, blah, blah. He may do, but Pete's skill is... I've always described Pete as the best DJ in the world. He would, he could go to any city in England at 1:00 in the morning, and he would know instinctively what records to play to the audience-

Steven Bartlett 48:11 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 48:11 ... that were in that venue.

Steven Bartlett 48:12 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 48:12 And he made ev- everything simple, which is, you find a great artist and you, you match them with a great pop record. And that was it.

Steven Bartlett 48:23 When you got that job at BMG, one of the things that I read was that you were really focused on television, which was unusual. Television as an outlet for the music and as a distribution platform to make the music successful, which was unusual at that time, to think about television. Why did you think about television? And why were you pushing that upon your bosses at BMG?

Simon Cowell 48:43 I took the view, it didn't matter to me, uh, what the record was as long as it sold a lot of records. So, uh, I, it just occurred to me one day, I forget what it was. It might have been, I think it was the wrestling federation or something. Um, someone told me they'd sold out, uh, Wembley Stadium, you know, the, the American wrestlers in-

Steven Bartlett 49:11 WWF.

Simon Cowell 49:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:12 Yeah.

Simon Cowell 49:13 In, um, 80,000 seats in, like, 27 minutes, and I'm like, "What?" And so I learnt a bit more about them, you know, they're selling everything and I'm thinking, "Actually, their fans are so crazy about them, they'll buy a r- they'll buy an album." So I met with them and I said, "Have you ever considered doing this?" And they went, "No," and I said, "Well, I'll, uh, pay you X as an advance." I phoned up Pete Waterman. I s- "How do you fancy making an album full of wrestlers?" He said, "I'll do it, okay," instantly, he just got it. And, um, we, we got all th- we flew all these wrestlers over from America. They all turned up as their characters. It was hysterical. The Undertaker, Hulk Hogan, you name it, they were all there, and, uh, uh, my boss at the time was so desperate for me not to do this. She actually got down on her knees, seriously, and was praying. Said, "Look, Simon, I am begging you not to do this because it's going to be such a catastrophic failure." And I'm like, "Well, I'm doing it. I just don't see, don't understand why you don't get it." Um-

Steven Bartlett 50:29 Have you felt like that a lot in your career where you feel like you can see something others can't because you're thinking more from first principles there? You're thinking, "They sold out an arena. They have an avid fan base. We can attach music to an avid fan base, equals hit."

Simon Cowell 50:43 Yeah. You've summed it up very eloquently and that is exactly it. However, and you know this, what is very straightforward to us is not straightforward to other people. They're thinking, "You've, uh, uh, he's gone completely mad." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:03 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 51:03 I mean, no one... But I'm thinking, "Yeah, but you're not a seven-year-old boy."

Steven Bartlett 51:07 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 51:08 You know, this is who's gonna buy the record, you know. This is somebody who's gonna buy a board game or blah, or, you know, uh, cereal with the wrestlers on it, whatever. You know, I did it with the Power Rangers, Zig and Zag. I, I, I didn't care as long as it sold records. Um, we thought-

Steven Bartlett 51:27 Let's do this one.

Simon Cowell 51:32 (laughs) That's it.

Steven Bartlett 51:34 (laughs) Yeah.

Simon Cowell 51:35 It's brilliant. Oh my God, we had so much fun doing this.

Steven Bartlett 51:40 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 51:40 We really, really, really did. Um, uh, and you know what was interesting is, actually, when I made the video, I, I kind of turned myself into a kid again because I, you sort of have to believe it for it to work, you know, because I, I treated it as if this was a serious record. The record had to be a great record.

Steven Bartlett 52:08 Doesn't this go back to what you said earlier on about being able to embody the, the listener consumer?

Simon Cowell 52:13 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:14 Because your boss at the record label there was saying, "No, this is not how it's done. This is not what we do here." Whereas you're thinking again from the mind of a seven-year-old or an eight-year-old.

Simon Cowell 52:23 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:24 And that's hard.

Simon Cowell 52:25 Um, yeah, well I didn't think... I, I thought logically it made a lot of sense. I used to sit in these A&R depart- um, meetings with really, really serious A&R people who would literally go bright red with anger when I would play them something like this. "You're making a mockery of this label and the music business." It's like, "Well, who cares? It's number one in the charts in 28 countries." Um, I just didn't understand why people would take it so seriously.

Steven Bartlett 52:55 And this sold millions and millions of copies.

Simon Cowell 52:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:57 You sold millions of copies for a wrestling album-

Simon Cowell 52:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:00 ... using a passionate fan base as the-

Simon Cowell 53:03 And, and, and you know what? It was fun. It actually was a fun project. Um, and when I worked, um, at BMG, I got to know a lot of the people in, who worked in the tele-sales department. Um, and these were the girls who would literally get, uh, um, orders from the record shops and I got to know all of them, and they were really, really fun people, and, uh, but they w- they were like the back-

Steven Bartlett 53:33 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Cowell 53:33 ... background, you know. But they were, I used to call them the punters, you know. They completely got it, and I always used to say, "I- if you hear of anything, just let me know," you know. If, "Is there a demand for something?" I always just, I just wanna know what's going on every day, and one particular day, uh, I said, "Anything happen this morning?" And they went, "Yeah, uh, we're getting a lot of calls about, um, uh, something that was s- sung on Soldier Soldier last night." So anyway, cut a long story short, um, I tracked down Robson & Jerome and I said, "Hi, I'm Simon Cowell, blah, blah, blah." Um, I kind of got Jerome to say yes. Robson just wasn't having it, so I was like a stalker.

Steven Bartlett 54:26 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 54:26 I would not let it go. I got hold of his parents, uh, everyone, his friends.

Steven Bartlett 54:32 Simon's baby reindeer.

Simon Cowell 54:33 Uh, I mean, to the point, I think I got a legal letter saying, "Could you stop harassing my client?" And it's like, "Well, when he says yes, I'll stop harassing him." Um, and eventually he agreed to a meeting. Um-... and I'm so excited. Uh, I'm in the cab going to the meeting and then I suddenly went, "Christ, I don't know what he looks like," 'cause I'd never watched the show. Um, "What do I do?" So... And we were meeting in this wine bar or something, so I just walk in and I'm like, "Hi, I'm Simon." (laughs) And-

Steven Bartlett 55:09 To everyone.

Simon Cowell 55:09 ... and then this hand shot up, "Robson," and I went, "Hi." And we sit down and I said, "Here's the deal. I'll pay you both £50,000 each to go into the recording studio, lay down your vocals, and if you say no, you keep 50 grand each." And he looked at me and he went, "You serious?" I went, "Yeah." So literally the- the following day they said, "Right, we'll do it," thinking, "Well, we're a- about to make 50 grand each for a day's work and we're never gonna put the record out." So, uh, I get them in as quickly as possible and, uh, I get a phone call from Robson, "I wanna see you." I said, "Oh, dear." So I walk in, they'd laid down the vocals and I said, "What's the problem?" And he goes, "You are a complete C-word." And I went, "Why?" He said, "'Cause you knew exactly what was gonna happen, didn't you?" And I said, "I don't know what you're talking about." He said, "Yes, you do." And he said, "Put it on," and they played me the record. And they both realized at that moment the record was gonna be a hit record and that I'd kind of forced them into doing it, and they were happy and angry at the same time. For two years they were- they were the biggest selling, uh, artists in the UK. I mean, they- they outsold Oasis, every one, every-

Steven Bartlett 56:35 Really?

Simon Cowell 56:36 Yeah. It was absolutely... I cannot tell you. We had so... We couldn't make enough records, it, we sold so many records.

Steven Bartlett 56:44 And this was... This particular s- track was number one for, I think, seven or eight weeks or something?

Simon Cowell 56:48 Yeah, something like that, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:49 Staggering at the time, which is crazy.

Simon Cowell 56:50 Yeah, went to number one. I mean, I think all their records went to number one. It was actually

Simon Cowell 56:54 quite incredible. Um, and that was probably the thing that really cemented this thing about my- my career, which was absolutely trust your gut. Um, go completely in an unconventional way and, and that more than anything else made me realize the power of TV. Because also when I eventually did see the episode and I saw how it was cut, and the storyline, and just how everything worked and why there was such a demand for that record, it was... Wow, that's- that's a great lesson.

Steven Bartlett 57:35 But Simon, what about if your gut is wrong? Because you've worked with people that trust their gut and they're continually wrong. They- they just don't have it. They just don't have it, right?

Simon Cowell 57:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:47 Whether they're musicians or they're A&Rs, you know. Um, there'll be a lot of people listening now that are like, "Okay, Simon said trust my taste, trust my gut. Just go for it." (laughs) And then in reality, th- they... You know, it's a q- it's a question of, like, self-awareness, I guess, which is- which is difficult.

Simon Cowell 58:04 Well, I- I can relate to what is happening to a lot of people in the music business right now, which is the frustration they must feel, which is, "I'm talented, I've uploaded my music and I'm not getting anywhere. What do I do next?" And I- I know what this- that feeling is, and what I decided to do was, "Why don't I go a s- a slightly different direction from everybody else? I don't wanna be part of the herd. If I follow everyone else, I'm just gonna be a sheep, and I don't wanna be a sheep. I'd rather be somebody slightly unusual, but successful, rather than safe, cool, whatever." So I always say, particularly today, "You've gotta make noise amongst the noise." And that means, you know, do your research. You know, if- if you're gonna cover a song, don't copy the original, you know. Find a song that coulda been written 12 months ago but actually was written 30 years ago-

Steven Bartlett 59:13 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 59:14 ... uh, and rearrange the song. Do something different with it, you know. There's so many things you can do, um, which are different to what e- other people are doing. Um, 'cause that really is about getting your- the f- your first step, step on the ladder, which is prove that you can make some noise amongst everybody else. Um, and I do know what that feeling of frustration felt like. However, it's also about trusting your gut as well.

Steven Bartlett 59:44 When you make noise amongst the noise there's a cost, and you talked a little bit about the cost of that. It's the skepticism, it's the negativity, it's the-

Simon Cowell 59:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:51 ... criticism, it's the get back in line. And a lot of people, especially if they weren't rebellious kids that had a problem with authority and such, can't- can't deal with straying from the conventional path where other people have walked, the blueprint-

Simon Cowell 1:00:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:05 ... how things have always been done. You have to go through the thorns-

Simon Cowell 1:00:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:09 ... through the bushes.

Simon Cowell 1:00:09 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:10 And it takes a certain type of rebel, which w- one of which is sat in front of me, that is willing to go through the thorns in life.

Simon Cowell 1:00:17 Yeah. And don't be afraid of what other people say about you for doing that, you know, because, you know, when people say, "It's not cool," or whatever, well, who defines what is cool or what isn't cool, you know? It... This is just about you, your career, uh, your passion, um, and if other people, you know, mock you for being different, then it... I would rather be mocked for being different-... than being safe. That would just bore, bore me. I've been called so many terrible things from serious people in the music business, but it just doesn't really matter, you know? The most-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:02 Did it ever?

Simon Cowell 1:01:02 Hmm?

Steven Bartlett 1:01:03 Did it ever bother you?

Simon Cowell 1:01:04 Um-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:05 Is that a muscle you've had to train?

Simon Cowell 1:01:07 Do you know, the only thing that bothered me was, like I said, when I first tried to get my record played on Radio 1 and I saw the process, and I thought, "This is an im- this, this is something I can't change. I cannot change a stuffy, old producer's mind about liking a record he knows nothing about, so I have to find a way to force that person to play the record. And the way I can do that is to get it into the charts. So, I have to find a way to get it into the charts that forces them to play the record. It's on The Top 40 Countdown."

Steven Bartlett 1:01:42 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 1:01:42 That's always what I had in my head.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:45 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 1:01:45 Um, in other words, if you really, really believe in it, and the conventional path isn't open to you, then you've gotta go, "Right, then how do we navigate a slightly different path, um, that eventually gets us what we want? Let's not go the, the obvious route." And, you know, there, I'm not gonna lie, every time I do anything new, there's always... Part of the thrill is, it may not work. Um, and, you know, every time I, I, I film a series, BGT, AGT, whatever I'm filming, every year there is one day where I'm like, "It's over. It's over. I hate the acts. I'm bored." Uh, uh, "That's it." (laughs) And then following day, I'm like, "My God, I love this show so much."

Steven Bartlett 1:02:35 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 1:02:35 I mean, I am (laughs) so up and down like that, 'cause I, I can't fake how I feel, you know? When, when I'm bored, when I'm miserable, I, it really shows. Like, I... And when I'm happy, then it, you know I'm happy.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:50 You guys may have heard our most recent news, the launch of FLYHT Studio, which is our brand new podcast and media technology company. As we scale this new company, we also need to scale our team, and my first port of call for hiring across FLYHT Studio has been LinkedIn Jobs, who are a sponsor of this podcast. We're hiring for around 30 to 60 roles right now, and LinkedIn has been me and my team's go-to. Their platform makes the hiring process intuitive, smooth, and super efficient. LinkedIn has helped me and my team source professionals we can't get anywhere else, even those who aren't actually searching for jobs right now, but might be open to the perfect role with us. In a given month, over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job websites. They visit LinkedIn. So, if you're not

Steven Bartlett 1:03:34 looking on LinkedIn, you're looking in the wrong place. So today, I'm giving the Diary of a CEO community a free LinkedIn job post. Head to linkedin.com/doac now, and let me know how you get on. Terms and conditions apply. I've got another single here.

Simon Cowell 1:03:49 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:49 It's a single, but it's part of an album that... Do you remember this one?

Simon Cowell 1:03:55 Oh, yeah, Westlife.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:57 So you're sort of t- I think 39 years old, um, and your band, Westlife, their album hits number one.

Simon Cowell 1:04:04 Yeah. And do you know what? This is, uh, uh, my dad passed away, uh, right at this time as well, so this was a real bittersweet time for me. Because my dad, he never knew this, but my dad was amazing at spotting hit records. You know, I would play him certain things I was making. Oh, bless you.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:28 Got a photo of him here.

Simon Cowell 1:04:31 Yeah. Yeah. He, uh, when I, when I first started to have some success and my records went to number one, he, he was so proud. Um, and he... Again, when I signed this band, he said, "I think they were gonna be huge for you, Simon."

Steven Bartlett 1:04:58 Really?

Simon Cowell 1:04:59 Yeah. And, but this was a really crazy story about where, how we signed the band, because, uh, Louis Walsh was always calling me. Uh, uh, "I've got the best band in the world. I've got the best band in the world." And I'd say, "Okay, Louis. Okay. I'll come to Dublin." I went to Dublin. He showcases this band. I, I absolutely cannot bear them, and I said, "This is never gonna work. They just don't look right, Louis. I don't think... I, I just, the answer's no. I think a couple of them are okay." "You're wrong." I said, "Okay, fine, I'm wrong, but I'm not signing them." And then three months later, he calls me and he goes, um, "I've taken your advice. Uh, would you fly back?" And I'm like, "Okay." So I fly back. Uh, they start the showcase for me. Within 30 seconds, I said, "I'm in. Done. Uh, you'll hear from my lawyer. Do you wanna hear anymore?" "Nope. I, I can see it. They sound great. They look great," blah, blah, blah. We signed them, and then a (laughs) month later, it turns out that he has dyed one of the guy's hair blonde to sneak back into the band.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:16 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 1:06:17 Uh, and that's a shame because when, when we, uh, auditioned them the second time, they all had blonde hair.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:23 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 1:06:23 I don't know why that made a difference, but, uh, it, it's a typical Louis story. Um-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:29 They still succeeded though.

Simon Cowell 1:06:30 They did fantastically well, yeah. And in fact, I think we still

Simon Cowell 1:06:34 have the record of, uh, for... I think it was their first seven singles went to number one, and I don't think that's ever happened again.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:47 You described that moment as, as bittersweet. Um, in your book, I, I read that you-... called home to tell your, sort of, family that-

Simon Cowell 1:06:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:56 ... this album had gone to number one.

Simon Cowell 1:06:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:58 And the news that you got back was that your father had passed away from a heart attack.

Simon Cowell 1:07:01 Yeah. Yeah. I, I went to Germany to this, um, big conference and, um, uh, you know, I, I did quite a big presentation on, on the group and, uh, and the reaction in the room was huge. And so... And I, I, I, I, I, I also was hearing the record was really selling and, uh, and I called and I could just tell something wasn't right and I, I think someone said to my mum, "Don't tell Simon while he's there." And then I phoned back and she told me and I'm like, "Oh my God, I can't believe it." 'Cause I genuinely, at that point in my life, I just believed my parents were gonna live forever. I mean, it was that. Um, and yeah, it was... it was tough. Um, however, I do believe in God and I do believe, um, uh... 'Cause the hardest thing when you lose your parents is you, you can't even think about them afterwards because it's too difficult, you know? Everything is. And then after a while, it's like when I have a question in my mind, I do talk to them in my mind, "What would you do?" And I know what they would say. So it... They, they... I really do still believe they're with me. But that was very bittersweet moment, you know? Um, and, and probably, you know, at that, you know, I would've swapped ev- everything. I'd succeeded, you know, to kept him around, you know? Um, uh... And all of the things that, you know, he taught me over the years, it all just, you know... I mean, I... It was the longest trip home from America, you know? That, that flight was... It, it was, it was bad.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:19 It's a credit to the man.

Simon Cowell 1:09:23 Yeah. And, you know, like I said, look, thank God, you know, he, he, he was very wise and he, he did give me a good steer. Um, and like I said, a lo- a lot of things I still do now. I still think of what would my dad say, you know, uh, 'cause he only lost his temper with me once and boy when he lost it, it was like, "Well, I don't want to go there again." But, you know, he'd, he'd never hit me, he'd... You know, nothing like that, you know? But he raised his voice once at me and it... That was enough, you know? But he was very... When he was angry at you, you knew it. Um, but I also... You know, I think he would've got a real kick out of seeing me on a TV show. I know he would've just found the whole thing really, really funny.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:18 He didn't see you on the TV show?

Simon Cowell 1:10:19 No. No. No. Um, that came a few, few years later. Um, uh, but, you know, at least, uh, he'd seen me, you know, succeed, you know? And that meant as much to him, I know as it did to me.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:38 Does the, the purpose and the meaning of all the work you're doing change when you lose someone who was so central to, um, why you are where you are? Um, th- thinking about your, your... The sort of immediate... People often describe they understand the nature of what their priorities should have been in their life when they experience the loss of a parent. Because you're right, we grew up, and even now it's almost like I think my parents are gonna live forever.

Simon Cowell 1:11:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:02 It hasn't crossed my mind. I'm living my life as if they're gonna live forever.

Simon Cowell 1:11:05 Yeah. Yeah. Well, like I said, having gone through, you know, which was no question in my... Uh, uh, losing, you know, both my parents was the hardest thing that ever happened to me but I can sit here and honestly look you in the eye now and, and say... 'Cause everyone says, you know, when you lose them, you know, "In time, it'll get better." And you think, "No, it won't." And the truth is, it does as long as you believe and you have to believe that their presence is still there with you and I do genuinely believe that with my mum and dad and, um... Oh gosh. Have to be a minute.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:52 Okay.

Simon Cowell 1:12:00 Um... My mum, um, uh, you know, she started to get dementia but, you know, fortunately, you know, saw Eric. She really wanted me to have a kid and she bought him this, um, uh, brown blanket and, uh, he still has it. Is it... Literally everything is about the brown blanket, you know? "Where's, where's my brown blanket?" And he said to me, uh, when he was about two or three after he, you know, she passed away, he says s- he just looked up at, uh, at the sky one night and he said, "I'm thinking about..."... uh, Grandpa, Eric, and Julie. And it was just the way he said it. It was like, "Gosh, why would you say that now?" And, and that's when I genuinely really started to believe they are still somehow with us, you know. It's- it's- it's not a total loss. Um... And I think, you know, maintaining that amazing relationship with both of them, you know, up until the point both of them passed away, they were my best friends, you know. Uh, I could tell them anything, we could talk about anything, and, you know, it's- it's how I feel for Eric, you know. It's just that pure love, you know. They just want the best for you and, in return, you- you feel the same about them, and it's how I feel about Eric, you know. It's... Everything starts to become full circle, thank God, you know.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:00 You described the loss of your father, um, in an intervie- in your book where you said, "It put everything into perspective. All the things I thought were important, chart positions, doing showcases with the band, and everything else, none of it meant anything any more."

Simon Cowell 1:14:14 Yeah, that's true.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:15 Really?

Simon Cowell 1:14:15 Yeah. Genuinely. Um... Uh, I can say that because, of course, I- I really, really enjoyed every successful moment of my career. Even when things haven't gone quite to plan, there's still a story, you know, or something to be learned from it.

Simon Cowell 1:14:41 That combined joy versus the devastation you feel when you lose someone, it's... There is, you know... It's- it's- it's... It really is meaningless.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:54 Your life really seemed to change drastically when Eric was born.

Simon Cowell 1:14:59 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:00 I think that's even, like, a bit of an understatement because-

Simon Cowell 1:15:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:03 ... when I speak to your team about Simon pre-Eric, they describe a man that is a workaholic, to say the least. I was reading about you staying up till 8:00 AM in the morning frequently to work, and-

Simon Cowell 1:15:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:17 ... just this absolute obsession with detail and working S- Sunday, Saturday-

Simon Cowell 1:15:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:23 ... calling people at all hours. Um-

Simon Cowell 1:15:28 True.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:28 Pre-Eric Simon, give me a true reflection of that man. If I was a fly on the wall in his life, what was, what was I seeing every day?

Simon Cowell 1:15:39 Well, I think, particularly when I lost my mum, um, uh, I just was on a downward spiral at that point, you know. It was like, uh, "I've lost everyone," you know- you know, "I've- I've lost my- my- my parent..." This finality now and what I said about the material things I've got, everything just meant n- nothing at that point. I was- I was desperately unhappy, um, I wasn't particularly enjoying my work, and I just thought, "You know what? I'm just gonna become a vampire then." And I would work through till seven o'clock, eight o'clock in the morning, um, I would wake up at 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon, and I actually got addicted to that kind of lifestyle, which was... I just l- loved the intensity of- of... It was almost like, because of- of th- the loss I'd had, "I've gotta find something else to fill it," and it was, "I'm just gonna become a ridiculous workaholic." And it- and I was very successful, but I wasn't happy, uh, really, really wasn't happy. Um, uh, and it was like... The- the expression, "Is this as good as it gets?" That's how I felt. There were certain people in my life at that point giving me advice who were just... Shouldn't have been in my life, um, and, uh... And then when I got the call (laughs) from Lauren, which starts... Any call which starts with, "Are you sitting down?" you know what's coming next. (laughs) It was like, "Are you sitting down?" "Yes." "Well..." And she told me, and yes, it did, uh, uh, absolutely, uh, change, changed everything in my life. I mean, it- it made me happy again. For me, it was perfect because, you know, like I- we were talking earlier on about our childhoods, you know, it was just brilliant. It's like fantastic. I remember the first time I watched Jungle Book with him, and I'm looking over and seeing the joy he had watching that movie. It was like, "Oh my God, I remember how I felt when I saw The Jungle Book."

Steven Bartlett 1:18:05 He saved you in many respects, didn't he?

Simon Cowell 1:18:07 Without question. Without question, yeah. I- I really, really had reached the point where nothing mattered, even to the point where I almost can't even remember everything from that period. It hit me so hard. I was like... Uh, 'cause the w- the hardest thing also was being on television as well, uh, because I'm like, "God, I feel like a clown here, you know, because I'm dying inside and yet, you know, I've still got to, you know, do what I'm being paid to do, you know, uh, as best as I could." But, you know, I- I put on a ton of weight, uh, I was eating just junk. Um, it was like...... if I had got hit by a bus the following day, well, I- I'd be dead. But I wasn't worried about anything like that, you know?

Steven Bartlett 1:19:04 Was there a darkest day in that period that you recall?

Simon Cowell 1:19:06 Yeah, the whole, the whole time was dark. Yeah. Um, I can absolutely relate to, uh, when people reach the lowest levels, you know, you possibly can, where essentially, you know, being alive doesn't matter anymore, you know, because you just go, "What have I got to live for?"

Steven Bartlett 1:19:27 Did you have those thoughts?

Simon Cowell 1:19:28 Yeah. Yeah. Not- not thinking I wanna take my own life, but thinking if I, if- if- if something terrible happened, uh, it wouldn't bother me, you know, to myself. What I, what I have learned, fortunately, is, unfortunately we are all gonna through this and it's how we cope with it. And being able to talk about it, you know? I mean, I've spoken, you know, publicly about mental health, particularly men's mental health, because there's no question, uh, I've had... I do still suffer from depression at times. I've really suffered from depression in the past. Um, I am actually

Simon Cowell 1:20:13 very thin-skinned at times. Uh, I, uh, uh, particularly when someone is disloyal, you know? That, I- t- I take things like that very, very badly.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:26 I noticed this 'cause I read, it's interesting, I- I read, um, I was reading loads of articles and loads of things trying to, trying to understand, 'cause obviously you're doing all this research, and the word loyalty came up over and over and over again as something you would say-

Simon Cowell 1:20:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:39 ... sometimes in interviews as being really critically important to you.

Simon Cowell 1:20:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:44 And I was thinking, "Why is, of all the people I've ever interviewed, why is loyalty the word that he uses when he describes artists he's worked with, and bands, and ve- right, Louis Walsh?"

Simon Cowell 1:20:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:53 Louis... I- I watched an interview where Louis Walsh said, um, "The thing Simon loves about me is I'm loyal."

Simon Cowell 1:20:58 Yeah. Um, uh, because of the, um, you know, a lot of what we spoke about today, you know, my upbringing, my working life, you know, nothing was ever handed to me on a plate, you know? So, um, but when people took the time, you know, like Pete Waterman, um, that there, you know, there have been, fortunately, a lot of people over the years who've been amazing, have come in and helped me achieve, because I could never have done what I did without, you know, the people who worked with me over the years. I've just been very lucky in the main. 99% of the people have been just fantastic. Um, however, uh, I- I, yeah, I take it (laughs) really badly when someone who you considered to be a friend rewrites the narrative afterwards and they become, uh, because things haven't worked out for themselves, they have to blame somebody else.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:06 Right.

Simon Cowell 1:22:06 And it's like, but we're all in that position.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:09 Yeah.

Simon Cowell 1:22:10 You know? Um, there's certain things I can't talk-

Steven Bartlett 1:22:13 Sure.

Simon Cowell 1:22:13 ... I would talk to you-

Steven Bartlett 1:22:15 Privately, yeah.

Simon Cowell 1:22:16 ... privately about why that particular time some other people I was working with, um... Look, again, on the bright side, as long as you're happy today, which I am, thank God, and I'm- I'm at peace today, thank God, um, then- then a lot of the bad things that happened previously,

Simon Cowell 1:22:40 it's like, "Well, that- that's your destiny." You know? Uh, if- if the lights had been red instead of green on a certain day, Eric may not have been conceived, and that's how I look at life, you know?

Steven Bartlett 1:22:52 Mm-hmm. Your- your new work/life balance, um, I find it quite interesting. You've put some, a lot of sort of parameters and boundaries in place in this new, with this new post-Eric Simon Cowell, some of which are, you know, you don't work Fridays? I read that.

Simon Cowell 1:23:08 No. Not really, no.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:09 Not really?

Simon Cowell 1:23:09 No.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:09 Okay. Um, you don't engage any emails after sort of 5:30, 6:00 PM? Really?

Simon Cowell 1:23:14 Never.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:15 Interesting.

Simon Cowell 1:23:16 Never.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:17 You have social media?

Simon Cowell 1:23:19 I, I have it, but I don't look at it.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:22 Okay. So how do you stay awake when you blog on your phone?

Simon Cowell 1:23:25 Well, you know I don't have a phone.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:27 You don't have a phone at all?

Simon Cowell 1:23:29 Well, I have a car phone, uh, which I occasionally use, um, which is actually an, uh, an American phone. I- and I swear, I don't even know how to use it.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:39 So you don't have a mobile phone?

Simon Cowell 1:23:40 Uh, I have one that sits in the car.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:43 Okay.

Simon Cowell 1:23:43 Uh, nine times out of 10, um, I'll use somebody else's phone because I don't even know how to work any- it anymore. Uh, I hate them so much because, I tell you why. I think they're boring. It's- it's almost like, for me, it's like having a- a toaster with you all the time.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:01 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 1:24:01 It's like, it's a toaster, uh, and a phone is just as boring, you know? It's like, toast is nice and occasionally a telephone call's nice, but not all the bloody time.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:13 When did you make that decision to get rid of your phone?

Simon Cowell 1:24:15 When I realized by not being on it for about three or four months a year, I was happier at that time. Um, and then when it was like, "Oh God, it's time to turn my phone back on," I started to dread it. And then one day, uh, I thought I'd lost it and it's, "Oh God, I've lost my life!" And it's, "Oh, stop being so dramatic. It's a stupid telephone." Um, I don't use 99% of the things on it. Um, and I actually really like talking with people like we're talking now. I like meeting people, and I like talking from a landline if I have to.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:55 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 1:24:55 Because the sound's nicer as well.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:59 I think people would be pretty shocked to hear that Simon Cowell doesn't have a phone, because you've got this, like, business empire you have to run. You've got all these people, these artists, these TV, you know, all these things. How do you navigate, like, m- I'd have some, like, I'd have, like, an existential crisis if someone told me that I had to get rid of my phone, because I think, "Well, my business is gonna crumble," or, or...

Simon Cowell 1:25:17 Obviously, it depends what-

Steven Bartlett 1:25:18 Yeah.

Simon Cowell 1:25:19 ... what you do. Um, for what I do, weirdly, it kind of helps because, um, you hear about the important things in life.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:31 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 1:25:31 You, you don't hear about the unimportant things. And that's the best way, I suppose, of describing the advantages. So when something really serious happens, within seconds, you'll hear about it. When it's just some piece of gossip or something, which I'm really not interested in, uh, and someone said, "Did you hear about so-and-so?" And it's like, "No, and I'm not interested," um, because I'm not.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:55 So if someone has to get hold of you, how do they contact you?

Simon Cowell 1:25:57 I always say, honestly, if you wanna get hold of me and you know me, you'll f- you'll get hold of me.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:05 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 1:26:05 You just will. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:26:07 It doesn't happen.

Simon Cowell 1:26:08 Promise. You- you really will. You will get hold of me. Um, uh, like I, obviously, you know, I- I- I have a PA. Um, I

Simon Cowell 1:26:19 have a partner. Um, I have friends. Um-

Steven Bartlett 1:26:23 How does she get hold of you?

Simon Cowell 1:26:25 Uh, she calls me at home.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:28 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 1:26:28 Uh, and, uh, I mean, it drives her crazy.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:30 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 1:26:30 But, uh...

Steven Bartlett 1:26:33 What, what would you say to the workaholics out there, including me, that, uh, haven't quite yet had life teach us the hard way? (laughs)

Simon Cowell 1:26:42 (laughs) Oh my God, I don't know where to start.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:44 Like, what would you say to Simon at 31 years old, which is how old I am?

Simon Cowell 1:26:47 Simon at 31. Well, I would say, work out, genuinely, from, from the, the good things that have happened, how much time are you spending time on, where your gut is telling you this isn't worth the effort? And, but your ego is sort of saying, "But it's your idea, so it must work." There are always gonna be moments where you have made the wrong decision. And sometimes it's bailing out earlier than you should.

Steven Bartlett 1:27:23 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 1:27:23 Uh, rather than just, "Let's just hang on to that." Or, um, also understanding that certainly when you're doing something creative, uh, I believe that you can only really be creative when you're not tired. I'm certainly at my best when I've slept well, um, I'm feeling fit, um, I'm feeling happy. Um, then I'm in a completely different mindset. You know, I, I would, because I still, uh, see each episode before it goes out about three or four times. So don't forget, these episodes are about the length of a movie.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:01 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 1:28:01 So I'm watching the equivalent of two movies a week.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:07 Yeah.

Simon Cowell 1:28:07 Uh, every second, every sound cue, every audience shot. I mean, it's the, the, the, the focus you've got to give it, it's unbelievable. Um, so I think I would have said, "You know what, S- Simon, why don't you enjoy what you're doing a little bit more?" Um, is the fifth day gonna really make a difference if you're working better on the four days? It's not really gonna make any difference is the truth. Uh, by the way, it's much more fun having a three-day, uh, weekend than a two-day weekend. Um, and, um, it's just stuff like that, I suppose.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:49 Did you use to think that if other people weren't working at the same tenacity as you, they weren't as interested or they...

Steven Bartlett 1:28:57 You know, 'cause I'm thinking about how you now interact with the people you work with. If back then you're working till 8:00 AM in the morning, I imagine you're dragging a lot of people with you.

Simon Cowell 1:29:03 Yes, I was. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:29:09 (laughs) I can't not laugh about it, it's so funny.

Simon Cowell 1:29:12 Yeah, I, I, uh, I did drag a few people along with me, um, and I apologize. Um, having said that, one thing you can't escape is that to be good at anything, you've gotta put the hours in. It is hard work. I mean, look, yes, people win the lottery. You hear about these crazy success stories, but they are one in literally a billion.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:33 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 1:29:34 I mean, for me, the majority of people I've met, uh, who haven't inherited anything, but have just built something on their own, they've done it because they're, they're talented, they've got great instincts, and importantly, they have really, really put the hours in. Uh, because if somebody, you know, comes to work for me at, say, 21 years old and says, you know, "5:30, right? I'm off. And don't bother calling me on the weekend," I'm gonna go, "Well, I, I'm not gonna bet the house on you."

Steven Bartlett 1:30:04 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 1:30:04 You know? Uh, I, when I was younger, genuinely, I didn't even think about weekends. It was like, um, when I was a runner, you know, I would do 18-hour days and loved every second of it, because for every day I was doing it, I was learning something more.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:21 Mm-hmm.

Simon Cowell 1:30:21 Um, and then I think, you know, there is a point where, when hopefully you've realized that you've kind of got your groove, you know what you're doing, you're being successful, you've got a good team around you, then I think it's a question of, okay, well, then don't kill yourself in the process.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:41 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 1:30:42 Um, I mean, seriously. Um, uh, find, uh, and this is, you know, going back to what, uh, to phones, you know, which is, and I'm the same with emails, is if, even if it's great news, um, and, and you get the news at 7:00...... eight o'clock at night. You can't just sw- go, "Right, I'm going to sleep now," because your brain's gonna go into overdrive. And I think, you know, p- s- getting good sleep is crucial, absolutely crucial. Uh, you hear about these people who're surviving four hours sleep a night. I'm like, "How?"

Steven Bartlett 1:31:21 (laughs)

Simon Cowell 1:31:21 You