The Diary of a CEOSimon Sinek: "I FEEL LONELY!" How To Deal With Loneliness! | E230
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,020 words- 0:00 – 2:43
Intro
- SSSimon Sinek
When my friends are struggling, I don't say, "Take your time." When my friends are struggling, I say, "Go on." When my friends are crying, I say, "Go on." I live my life by that code. He's back! Simon Sinek.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Leadership and communication expert.
- SSSimon Sinek
Author. TED speaker. His unconventional views have made him one of the most sought-after speakers on the planet.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's no one quite like him. Simon, how are you doing?
- SSSimon Sinek
I am actually feeling quite lonely. I'm struggling to communicate or present myself in a way that people will get who I am. Feel like nobody can help you, and the first thing that a lot of us should do is reach out to a friend and say, "I'm struggling." You should never cry alone. We live in a world where most people are ill-equipped on how to be there for a friend who's struggling. The first mistake people make is they try and fix. Don't need them to fix me, I just need them to sit in the mud with me so I don't feel alone when I'm sitting in the mud. The fact that it's such a loud conversation about mental health is a spotlight on the fact that we do not know how to build deep, meaningful relationships. But the way I manage it, which is different than most, is I... You know? I wish I had these skills 10 years ago.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is the design of the modern world making it more difficult for us to find love and to keep it?
- SSSimon Sinek
The problem with it is, is it's, grass is always greener because it's so easy to just go swiping. Something's out of balance and as, I, I, I'm gonna say this over and over and over again, which is successful relationships are
- SBSteven Bartlett
Simon, congratulations, you are the Diary of a CEO record holder.
- SSSimon Sinek
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've been (laughs) invited back more than any other guest and it's not for, it's for a very, very good reason which is that your episodes are always the most adored that we have on this, on this podcast. They are, um, the two episodes, the conversations we've had are both in the top 10 of all time on the show and I always feel after our conversations end that they could've gone on longer, so (laughs) here we are. Um-
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, thanks for having me back. I enjoy coming.
- SBSteven Bartlett
My first question for you today is, and I, you know, this question's often asked quite flippantly, but I wanna, I'd really like the real answer which is, how are you doing?
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, you know, I think when somebody says, "Fine," they're lying. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
And so my instinct is to say, "I'm fine."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, I am going through, uh, I'm going through some ups and downs. Um, I'm in a period of, uh, flux which doesn't, which is fine. That, that genuinely is good. Um, I like a little bit of chaos in my life. It's where creativity
- 2:43 – 13:26
How are you doing?
- SSSimon Sinek
comes from and if I look back at my career, you know, I would take a job, I'd have a fast-moving career, it'd get to a, a great point, it would plateau and then I'd quit. And I'm sort of at that point. You know? Um, I love a steep learning curve. I love a difficult situation and I like trying something new and building something. And, um, so there's, I'm, I'm shifting away from in-person public speaking which I think surprises a lot of people. Um, but recognize that I never considered myself a public speaker in the first place. It's just something I did to advance my cause, it was never my chosen career, so not doing it, as much as I enjoy it and as, and I know, uh, is f- is not that difficult. So what next is a little bit of an unknown. I have some ideas and I'm testing some things out, but I don't actually know where I'm gonna go.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why are you shifting way from public speaking? Give me the context as to why this is a, sort of a pivotal moment.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, there are multiple reasons. Um, you know, I, I consider myself a preacher and when I set out on my journey many years ago, I was espousing a vision of what business could look like and what the world could look like, what our careers could look like that was different than the world that we lived in. You know, talking about purpose at work y- was some hippy dippy stuff, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And now it's a completely normal conversation. And I'm really proud to have been a part of that movement. And so when I would stand on a stage, I was preaching to people who had never heard of my, my work, who had never heard of these concepts, at least not explained the way I explain them, and, and I was converting audiences, you know, that was... And the good news is the movement is, is of, is, has its own momentum and, um, I don't know how many, I'm converting vastly fewer people now-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... when I walk into the room. Now they're looking for tools, now they're looking for, you know, which is great. Um, and so I want to now pivot myself so that I can start having significant impact again, so that I can start affecting greater change, not, not just maintenance, not just reinforcing, not just affirming. Change, impact is what I'm looking at. So that's a huge part. Um, COVID in some respects was a gift. It created a marketplace for online and so, you know, I can do things that I could never do before which is I can be in Chicago in the morning and Kuala Lumpur in the evening. That, that was impossible before. Um, I have the energy to give to more people. Um, so I'm doing that which is great. Um, and at the end of the day, uh, um, I, I'm, I want to learn. I wanna be in a situation where I'm actually not familiar, where I'm not very comfortable, you know? I'm good on the stage now. I've, I've honed my craft and I wanna be uncomfortable again.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
The personal side is different. Uh, you know, I know that mental health is a, is a h- is a, an, a big and important topic right now and had a conversation with somebody recently and I've realized I actually don't like the term mental health, you know? Um, it sounds like a fixed destination. It sounds like, you know, if you, if you don't have health...Like, if you're not perfect, there's something wrong with you. So any kind of divergence or sadness means you're imperfect, right? And that's not true, and I think it's an unfair standard to call it mental health. And I think because at the end of the day, like think about your body when you go to the gym, right? Um, we call that fitness. And some days you have good days at the gym and some days you have bad at the gym, bad days at the gym. Some days your body feels amazing, you can lift huge weights. And some day for whatever reason, you got enough sleep, you a- you're eating well, you're hydrated. You just, your body's just not working that day, and we're all familiar with that. And it doesn't really bother us. We're like, "Uh, bad day today." And you move on, and you allow that to happen. But we don't treat our m- our mental fitness the same way. You know, being a human, you are 100% mentally fit if you have sadness, and h- if you have joy, and if you have doubt and uncertainty and insecurity. That- that's what it is to be human. Like, your body sometimes has pain. There's nothing wrong with your body. And so I- I- I like to call it mental fitness rather than mental health, right? I'm always working on my mental fitness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I allow for periods of darkness. So right now, w- when you said, "How are you?" The space that I'm sitting in is I'm actually qu- feeling quite lonely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, uh, and I learned about how to manage mental fitness during COVID more than I ever had prior, because we had to deal with so much shit, right? And so prior, I would've been embarrassed by saying, "I'm feeling lonely." I would've, um, hidden it or suppressed it. Don't like negative feelings. Um, uh, whereas now, I'm just sitting in it, not worried about it. Um, I'm allowing it to go through me, like I'm allowing myself to have a bad day at the gym. And weirdly, even though it's not necessarily fun, um, weirdly appreciative of it, um, because it makes me human. It just reminds me of a story. Um, earlier on in my career, I was invited to speak at an event which is the Association of Meeting Planners. So there's an American Meeting Planners Association, whatever it is. Literally, everybody who hires speakers from every big company and association has their own association, and they come and have their own event. So to get hired, to get invited to speak at this event is like if you nail it, your career is set for the rest of your life. And if you blow it, your career is over. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Because, like, literally everybody who hires all the speakers for all the big events is in this room. And I got invited. Huge honor, right? And th- um, this is back in the Start with Why days, and I'm good at Start with Why. Like, I've done this thing probably thousands of times. I know my stuff. So I get up there, I'm doing Start with Why, and I lose my train of thought. It's okay. I'm a professional. I know how to deal with losing your train of thought. You go quiet, you relax, you get your thoughts back, and you pick up where you left off. It's happened before, no problem. So I do what I n- I know how to do. I go quiet, and nothing comes in. And now the panic starts. Now the heart starts pounding.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Now my life is flashing before my eyes. Now I'm recognizing, oh my god, I've, um, my career is over. You know? And I look at my- my pad, and I look at the audience. I cannot, I cannot remember what I was saying. I don't know what to say next. I don't have a joke. I've got nothing. I've just got panic. So I turn to the audience, and I say, "Do you ever have that feeling, that sinking feeling when you lose your train of thought, where your heart starts pounding and your hands get clammy and your life flashes before your eyes?" I said, "I'm having that right now."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
"And I'll tell you, I am so grateful for that feeling right now, 'cause it makes me feel alive." And the audience exploded with applause.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
I said, "Right, now if somebody could please just tell me what I was saying so I can pick up where I left off."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
And somebody screamed something out. I went, "Thank you," and I picked up and I finished. The point was I could've- I could've suppressed the panic, but I was open about the way I was feeling. And what I learned was everybody was there to support me, because I had- I acknowledged that I'm human.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's relatable, and so that's how I feel right now. I'm more open about being in a darker space, in the- in the- i- in the shadows right now, because- because it- it makes me feel, it makes me feel quite frankly normal. It makes me feel human. I, and it's part of mental fitness, you know? And- and if I didn't have off days or off weeks, then how would I know what to work on? You know? How would I know what good good looks like? How would I know how to appreciate the happy days if I didn't have some days that were down? So I'm- I'm- I'm weirdly grateful for what I'm going through right now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I... I-
- SSSimon Sinek
Very long answer to your very simple question.
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, it was absolutely perfect. We'll obviously, we always do long answers here, as you know. But I- I am, the context is so incredibly important, and the subject matter is even more important. I know this because I've done a few talks over the last couple of years or whatever, and when I talk about the subject matter of loneliness-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what will happen afterwards is I will have a young man.
- 13:26 – 25:25
Knowing what loneliness looks like
- SSSimon Sinek
find love, and how you can build your business, and how you can become a millionaire, and you know, how you can find the job that you love. It's all about me, me, me, me, me, and there's not enough about how can you help somebody else find love? How can you else... h- how can you help somebody else, you know, find commercial success? Or how... we don't do that, we don't teach it. And those are the skills that are desperately n- needed for each of us to find mental fitness because we can't do it alone. You know, when you find darkness, you've, you, whatever, however you want to define your darkness, you know, you feel alone, you feel like nobody can help you, you feel like you have no agency, you feel like you have lack of control. And the first thing that a lot of us should do is reach out to a friend and say, "I'm struggling," or, "I need help," or, "I'm lonely," or, "I'm depressed," or, "I'm sad." Whatever your f- whatever the feeling is. And that person, do your friends, do your colleagues, do your teachers have the skills to know how to hold space? So the first mistake people make is they try and fix. Don't try and fix. It's not, it's not a fixing thing. You know? Um, it's like, "I had a bad day at the gym." Nothing to fix. You know, nothing to fix. Um, but then do you know how to listen? Do you know how to hold space? Um, and, and, and I think one of the reasons m- more of us are struggling with mental fitness is because we ourselves lack the skills to help our friends who are struggling with mental fitness. And the more that we as a society are equipped to help each other, the more that there are other people there to help us.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
So you know, if, if... and I have a rule with my friends, um, uh, my rule is no crying alone. My o- my close friends all know this, and we all obey it. Like, I'll get a call from somebody who's a, somebody who's a significant person in the world that people know who they are, and they'll call me and say, "I... do you have a minute?" And I'll be like, "Yeah, what's, what's up?" They're like, "I just... I think I need to cry." I'm like, "Go. What have you... what's on your mind?" And they'll tell me what's on their mind and they will cry. And that's my rule. My rule with my friends is no crying alone because if you're at the point of absolute frustration, exhaustion, whatever it is that you, you can't hold it in, I would rather you call me or one of us, and you do it with somebody. You should never cry alone. And, and so I'm really good when I'm in a place like this of calling somebody and telling them because I don't want to go through this alone. And some of my friends do have the, do have the skills where they can say, "How do you feel?" "Oh, this is how I feel." "That must be really frustrating." "Yeah, it's really hard." "Tell me more about that." "Well, I'm sort of going through this and that." And they know how to hold space. That's all I need. I need to... somebody to sit in the mud with me. Don't need them to fix me, or clean me off, or give me a towel. I just need them to sit in the mud with me so I don't feel alone when I'm sitting in the mud. And it's... I think it's our responsibility to be able to have that skills, that skill set to do it for our friends and the people we love, or our colleagues. Um, we don't teach listening. We don't teach difficult conversations. The fact that there's so much conversation about mental health right now is not... is, of course, in part because we've just come through this crazy ass thing called COVID, and lockdowns, and exaggerated politics, and you know, uh, and divisions in our countries and etcetera, etcetera. Social media, sure, you can pile that on if you want. But I think really what it is, the fact there's such a loud conversation about mental health is a spotlight on the fact that we are... we do not know how to build deep, meaningful relationships. I think it is an indictment on our current state of affairs that not only do we not have the skills to be there for our friends, but we're, we're... the way we're reacting to it is by trying to seek resources to help me rather than teach me how to help my friends. I think we're going about it half-assed.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was really surprised when you gave the answer regarding the... when I said the symptoms th- that, that have indicated to you that you are feeling lonely.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, I think even in my head I was expecting it to sound more like an absence of other humans around you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's the whole distinction between being alone and being lonely.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your answer was about how you, you feel like you're not understood.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
By who? Is this friends or is this the world, or is it...
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, the... I'm a middle-aged man who hasn't been married. Not, not, not that I care about marriage, but I haven't even had like a 10-year relationship. And I'm realizing some of it is self-inflicted. You know, I chose a career path that made me pretty undateable. You know, I was on the road so much, it was difficult to have a relationship. But some of it is also managing the effects or the, the symptoms of ADHD.... which wasn't a thing when I was a kid, so I couldn't be diagnosed, which I'm glad for, quite frankly, because I had to learn to manage certain things myself, which became strengths as adult-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... a strength as an adult. So not, not, not bitter about that. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 32, so pretty much in life, you know. Like, and one of the things that I've... And I've learned how to manage it really well professionally. Like, I know how to manage my ADHD in a professional context really well. I'm only now learning some of the symptoms, how it affects personal relationships, and how I show up in relationships that I didn't even realize. So my whole life, I'd be in relationships and, and women would tell me, "You're so hard to read." And I was like, "I'm an open book. What do you mean I'm so hard to read? I'll tell you anything you wanna know," you know? Like, and, and what I've learned is people with ADHD, not all of them, but some of them do something called stonewalling, which is an accident, it's not something conscious, where you're telling me something about your day, whatever it is, or about our relationship, and I have... I'm, I have nothing to add. And so what, on my face you see? Nothing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
And I, I would acknowledge it by going, "This is fantastic and wonderful. This is great," but I have nothing substantive to add, so I just add nothing. And so the accidental effect is, "Did I say something wrong? Did I offend him? Does he not agree?" And so I know that about myself now, so I can say to somebody, "If you're not getting the reaction that you need, if you need any reaction, just ask me for a reaction. How does that make you feel? Is that okay?" Be like, "Oh my God, that's fantastic." Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I'll, I'll give it to you. Um, or I'm really blunt and forward with questions. For example, I have a friend, she's an entrepreneur, she's a solopreneur. She offers services to people. And I think she's priced too low, and I, I was having this conversation with her, and she, I said, "What, what do you charge?" She told me the price, and I said, "Why do you charge that?" That's how I asked the question. "Why do you charge that?" And she was telling me about this just a few, about a week ago, it was really funny. And in, in my mind, I, that's perfectly legitimate question. In her mind, it was such an aggressive affront, like, "What do you mean why do I charge that?" (laughs) And I'm like, "You're worth more, why do you charge that?" You know? I said, "Well, how should I have asked that question?" And I guess normal people would have said, "Oh my God, you're worth so much more than that. Why do you charge that," you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
But I don't. I'm just like this. So I recognize that in a professional context, it's one thing. People can deal with questions like that, delivered like that in a meeting.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
But in a relationship, not so much. And so, like, sitting in this space, I'm, like, going through all of these mistakes or things that I've done over the course of years, and I'm a little annoyed by myself, you know? Now, I know you don't wanna live life in a rearview mirror, but I mean, I can still take account, and I'm annoyed, you know? I wish I had these skills 10 years ago, you know? So I'm just sitting in a period of my life where I just, you know, I would've liked to have had some of the experiences that I haven't had yet. And, you know, my, my friends who are in fix-it mode, they're like, "But think of it as an opportunity. Now you have these skills that you..." Thank you, I know that, but allow me to mourn the past. That's my loneliness. I'm just mourning. I'm in a period of mourning.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where, where's the mourning? I have to say so-
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, I can, I can mourn loss, can't I? Like, if I, if I lose a friend or a loved one, you know, y- y- a- a- allow me to just, like, mourn and then I'll move forwards. Like, I'm okay, I- I- I will move forwards, but allow me to mourn loss. And, and that's all I'm doing, is just allow me to mourn the loss and I'll be fine. Just hold space for me. Come and sit in the mud with me. Ask me how I'm feeling, ask me how I'm doing. Just let me vent. Just sit in the mud with me. And, you know, again, I think to your point, I think we just live in a world where most people are ill-equipped on how to be there for a friend who's struggling.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can you give... I learned this term the other day which I love, I le- learned it from Lex Fridman. Can you give the steel man argument for your friends that are telling you to... trying to offer advice wh- in your mourning process and trying to get you to be more future-orientated? As in, the steel man argument, I mean is can you give the argument for why they're doing that and why it's a good thing?
- SSSimon Sinek
Emotions are good. It means you're human. Like I said, I believe in mental fitness, not mental health. You know, that it's a... Like your body, you have to work out, you have to eat well, you have to sleep all the time. It's not something you do and then you're done. You know, we've used that analogy before, you and I, which is, which is what the infinite game is, which is it's like, it's like I wanna be healthy. Okay, well it's a... you're gonna have to do it for the rest of your life. It's not an event. And our mental health, our mental fitness, is exactly the same, which is it's, it's constant, and it's ups and downs. And it's only, um, um, a challenge or, or you need to start involving m- professionals if you get stuck. You know? Like, if you get stuck in sadness-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
... and you cannot get out of it, that's a different, that's a different conversation. If you get stuck in depression and you cannot get out of it, if you get stuck in loneliness and you cannot get out of it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yep.
- 25:25 – 39:02
How to get out of a dark place
- SSSimon Sinek
each other, if it's been a long gap, he'll say to me, "Hey, man." He, like, first of all, he calls me brother. "Hey, brother." Right? Which means something. "Hey, brother. I really miss you." And he says things that a lot of guys don't say to each other. You know? Um, he talks to me like sometimes I talk to my female friends.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
There's, it's full of emotion, it's full of honesty, and there's no machismo whatsoever, and yet, he's a warrior. He's a combat veteran, you know? Um, and he'll say, "Hey, man. I, I, I miss you. It's been a while." I go, "Yeah, I miss you too." And then we'll get off the phone, and he'll say, "Hey, I love you." I'll be, "I love you too. I'll talk to you soon." And, um, though, he will, I would, I mean, he and the s- there's a small group like him, um, you know, I, I would call him in my most, uh, in my darkest times, and I know he would call me. Um, um, I have another friend, and he's going through some shit, and I'm honored that when I called him up and said, "Hey, I haven't talked to you in a while. What you been going through?" You know, I just realized I haven't talked to him in a while, and I went, "Hey, what you been going through?" And he just let it all out, and I could hear the frustration. I could hear the pain, and I didn't try and fix it. I just encouraged him to keep talking. "What else? Go on. Tell me more. What else? Oh my God, that must, that's really, go on. Yeah. What else?" And just sat in the mud with him, and it was an, it was an honor. I'll tell you, it was an honor that he felt comfortable enough to do that, because I guarantee it, he, like so many, are really good at hiding it, faking it, suppressing it. He's a pro. In fact, I'm sure he is where he is partially because he's a pro, and you know, if you have the skillset to hold space for someone, you will have an amazing sense of gratitude that your friends trusted you and loved you enough that they would go there in front of you. And I think that's a standard that we should strive for. And like I said, we're all so preoccupied with ourselves, you know? Um... there's no greater honor, there's no greater honor than being able to serve a friend in need.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I see, you know, a friend sees you sat in the mud, a friend sees me sat in the mud, their ill-informed love reaction is to try and get me out the mud, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know?
- SSSimon Sinek
Well-intentioned. I don't-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
... knock it. I know it's well-intentioned.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do I get out the mud? I'm, I, th- the reason I ask that question is 'cause I know there's someone listening to this right now who is sat in the mud. In many respects in my life, I'm sat in the mud.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, the, the thing we're all looking for is, we want empathy-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in the fact that we're sat in the mud, of course, but we're desperate for a way out of the mud, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's understandable.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where d- where does the plan come from? Where does, how do we get out of the mud?
- SSSimon Sinek
So, I, (laughs) if it were a prescription, you and I wouldn't have to work anymore.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
On the subject matter of loneliness, 'cause it's easier to focus on.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, so I, I, I, I think in large part, like any cooperative effort, like any relationship, and a friendship is a relationship, right? Um, uh, having colleagues is a relationship.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, in some part, it's, it's, it's, it's, um, co-created, right? You know, you wanna show up in any kind of relationship, professional or personal, and make it a co creation, and you know, I think when somebody first calls you, I, I don't think they're looking for solutions. They're looking for companionship and, and catharsis. They're just looking not to feel, like, overwhelmed, and at some point, um, you can either ask, "Can I offer some pointers, or you're not ready for that yet?" "No, I'm not ready for that yet," versus, "Yeah, yeah, go ahead." Or the person will ask themselves, you know, "What do you think? Is, what do you think, how do I, like, what do I do?" You know? Or, "I'll know what to do, but I don't wanna do it." Like, "I know what to do. I just need to do this." And the person can just say, "I'll do it with you," and just offer, again, companionship. Most of us, believe it or not, have more knowledge about how to get out of it than we think.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because we've dispensed the advice in the past.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Probably, you know? I think most of us have a sense, like, it's, again, I think part of, part of it is, is allowing ourselves to feel the feels, you know? I think if I suppressed the feelings, they would last longer, but allowing myself to feel the feels, I know is part of the solution, you know? It's, like, if you try and suppress feelings...... it makes- it just- it's not good. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah.
- 39:02 – 44:56
What to do when you feel lonely
- SSSimon Sinek
not show up when they arrive on the battlefield. They've been building it, and the m- and the, and the organizations for whom they work know how to build that trust, that the trust exists by the time they get into combat. And this is when I talk about command and control. You know, like, I talk about asking people and getting feedback and all these things. But the reality is, is command and control also is a real thing. So you know, if you're a marine and you show up in combat, they talk about that as managing chaos. That's, they, th- they refer to combat as managing chaos. Sounds a lot like an entrepreneurial venture.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That is managing chaos, right? And there are times where you have to be command and control. But the problem is, is you can't be command and control before you've earned somebody's trust. So that you s- when you're back at home, you're building trust, building trust, building trust, building trust, building trust. So that when we are in chaos and I yell an order at you, I don't have time to ask you your feelings. I don't want your feedback. I don't need your ideas. I need you to do as I'm telling you right now, and you have to trust that I'm making the best decision that I can and I'm not gonna put your life recklessly at risk. And I even may make a mistake and people will die because of my mistakes, uh, my mistakes, and that's still okay. But you can't do command and control all the time. It's episodic.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's earned. And so when, when COVID struck and we first went into lockdown, I went into command and control. I even made an announcement to my team like, "Hey, listen. I know we have a culture where there's a lot of feedback, and if you're not, if there's feelings hurt, like, we, we have that mechanism. And I wanna hear all that stuff, but I can't hear it for another two weeks. Save it up. If I'm, if I'm a bit of a, if I'm a bit m- blunt in a meeting, tell me in two weeks. I just, I don't have the bandwidth right now because what we're doing is survival." And it worked fine, that command and control, because I'd built up the trust. It worked fine. The problem is leaders who believe they can be in command and control all the time, right? So what I'm, so the reason I'm telling you this is, you're asking two different questions, one which is more difficult. Which is, we need to s- build these skills when we're healthy and in a good state of mind so that when we're in the mud, we ourselves have some equipment and some tools, and our friends that we're gonna call have some equipment and some tools, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're asking, with no equipment and no tools and I'm sitting in mud, how do I get out? That is an entirely different conversation that I am probably the least equipped-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... to answer. There are professionals who are much better equipped to answer that. And what I'm saying is, is, is, um, uh, for, so that we don't find ourselves in that situation, right now, with big smiles on our face. "How's your day?" "Great! I'm great! Things are great!" When are you taking that listening class?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
When are you gonna practice mindfulness and meditation? And have you, h- ha- have you tried meditation?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My girlfriend.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. My girlfriend's like a yoga, meditation-
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay, so you're forced to do it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yes, exactly.
- SSSimon Sinek
Got it. Okay-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've had to run away from it. (laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. Okay, so i- f- for, if anyone has ever practiced meditation, you sit still and you focus on one thing. When they say clear your mind, that's not true. You don't clear your mind. That's impossible. But you do focus on one thing. Could be your breath. It could be your mantra. It could be a, a dot on the wall. It could be a sound. It doesn't matter. The point is you focus on one thing.And when you get distracted or you have another thought, like, "Ooh, did I leave the oven on?" What you do is you label that a thought, and you push it out of your mind, and you say, "I'll deal with that later." And you go back to focusing on the one thing. And there are tremendous benefits to the self of, uh, of, of being present and, and calm, and clear-headed by practicing meditation. But that is not the sole purpose of meditation, just so you can be present. In fact, I believe that you are not present until someone else says you are, right? So the reason you practice meditation is so that when you're sitting with a friend and they're telling you about their good day or their bad day, you are focused on one thing and one thing only, what they're telling you, as opposed to waiting for your turn to speak. And you may have thoughts, and you say, "That's a thought. I'm gonna label that and deal with that later," and you remain so focused. And there's a bang in the background, but your eyes don't leave your friend because you're so present. At the end of the conversation, they will say to you, "Thank you for listening." They will say, "Thank you for being present." They'll say, "Thank you, I feel heard." Congratulations, you were present. Congratulations, all that meditation was worth it now. The practice of meditation, though it has benefits to yourself, the reason to practice meditation is as a service to others.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The, the ADHD point that you raised, y- and you've talked a lot about exactly that, which is, um, being able to sit and listen and, and, and hear, how did you almo- 'cause it s- almost sounded like you, you self-diagnosed that as being a, playing a part in your, your historic relationship challenges. H- how d'you, how d'you know? 'Cause I, you know what I mean? 'Cause if you, if you make that sort of self-diagnosis and then you build a plan around that, and it's the wrong self-diagnosis, you know, you end up in an, in another unfortunate place, if that makes sense. So if I'd, if I'd self-diagnosed myself based on that experience with my parents, um, I could've been aiming at the wrong target. So it's about, the, this question's about self-awareness. How does, how does one develop the self-awareness?
- SSSimon Sinek
I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is it feedback?
- SSSimon Sinek
I think there's a difference between introspection and awareness with accountability versus victimization versus victimhood, right? By the sound of it, you didn't say, "My parents did this to me."
- SBSteven Bartlett
No.
- 44:56 – 52:24
How do we become more self-aware?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Not useful. (laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
But that's victimization.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Y- right.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's the same, it's the same thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right, yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I can't have a relationship because my parents fucked me-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
... because they didn't give me an effective model and they didn't love me enough and they didn't hug me enough. And so the reason I can't have relationships is because of my parents.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Disempowering.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's disempowering. It's also victimhood, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, whereas, um, okay, well, the cards that I was dealt, um, I got a lot of good cards for some things, and in some places, meh, n- maybe I, I gotta work a little harder on this one. So the cards that I was dealt from family, I hold no grudge. I'm not angry at them. They didn't have the tools. It's okay. And, um, I don't, I don't curse them for it. They didn't have the tools. But, um, I, I, I'm gonna have to learn the tools. You know? O- other people learn it from their parents. I'm gonna have to learn it from other sources. And I could say the same thing about listening skills, you know? Some parents are really good at holding space for their kids, and those kids will learn how to hold space with their friends because it was modeled by their parents.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And some parents don't have the tools to hold space for their kids, or maybe they work in really, really horrible jobs, and so they come home and they're short-tempered. And so, y- you know, the, the, there's a chain of causation there. And, um, and the kids, uh, aren't learning those skills. They're gonna have to learn it from somewhere else. That's why I say we have to teach it at work. We have to teach these skills at work because we, or in universities, because we cannot take for granted that people are learning these skills at home or with their friends.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What if I just smell, though? Like, and I totally fucking miss the target, and I just stink. Like, I just, like, I have really bad body odor. But I've thought, do you know what it, what it is, is I'm, I'm just too picky. So I'm trying to figure out how we become more self-aware as to what the real issue is. Now, you, it sounded like you'd spoken to some of your exes or something, or s- or someone.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, I, I have great relationships with many of my exes. And there's one ex I have in particular where we broke up, we got back together, we broke up properly, and, uh, she hated me for a while. Uh, I probably blamed her for the breakup. I'm sure we blamed each other. Then at some point, we sort of, like, calmed down, and we went out for dinner. And we sat at the bar. I even remember the restaurant. We sat at the bar, and we literally dissected the relationship. And we didn't do it with accusation. What we did was we didn't say, we didn't sit down and say, "You did this, you did this, you did this," which is how we were for the previous, you know, whatever, six months in our minds. We sat down and said, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I did this, I did this, and I did this." And sometimes the other person affirmed, (laughs) "Yeah, you did that," you know? But we showed up with accountability rather than accusation. And at the end of dinner, we, we hug each other with immense gratitude 'cause it is so rare that you get to sit down with an ex and take, not only take accountability for the things that you screwed up, but learn about other things you screwed up and learn about how you were received even if you thought you were doing things right. And you, you know, in everything else, if you have a failed business venture, you sit down and you, you have a hot wash. You sit down and you sort of, like, go back and see what went wrong so you don't make the same mistakes. You do that in almost every respect of our lives professionally, but very rarely do you ever get the opportunity personally because usually- (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... the two people don't wanna talk to each other anymore, right? But we sat do- And by the way, there was no expectation that a friendship was gonna come out of this. We just sort of, like, I don't know why we showed up, but we both did. And we will both admit that it was one of the greatest things we could ever have done, um, because we got to find out how we were in the relationship, which usually you never find out where you are. So to go back to your point, I think feedback is the thing.... you know. Um, you know, the only common factor in all our failed relationships is us. You know, y- you could, y- you know, you know, "It's their fault," only lasts for a sh- a, a period. At some point, there's some accountability to be had. And if you don't know what it is, there's something to be said for picking up the phone and calling an ex. And I don't mean the one that just ended up, like, a week ago, but, like, give it a, give it some time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, calling an old ex and say, "I, I know you're probably surprised to hear from me. And by the way, you know, it's, it's been a long time, I know. And the reason I'm calling is because I'm really taking myself on. And first of all, I, uh, I probably owe you a bunch of apologies for how I showed up in the relationship, but I really wanna learn how I showed up. Are you willing to have a conversation and just tell, just give me some, some point of view that I don't have?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you know if I did that with my ex, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, I, I don't believe there's anything that they would say that would surprise me. However, I do think they'd say things that I've never acknowledged. Does that make sense?
- SSSimon Sinek
Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
At my core, I think I'd go, "Yeah, f- ah."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Now you said it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- 52:24 – 1:05:23
How to find love in the modern world
- SSSimon Sinek
and it's definitely made life a lot easier. And you never have to deal with rejection, 'cause you don't know if they swiped left on you. You just assume that they never saw your picture, right? Like, it doesn't actually say, "Rejected," you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, uh, uh, a- a- y- you, I think the problem with it is, is it's grass is always greener, because it's so easy, you know, to just go swiping. Uh, and, you know, sometimes you treat it like Instagram, you know. I'll, I've done this where I've sat in my bed late at night 'cause in- instead of looking at social media, I'm looking at a dating app, and I'm swiping right, like, I'm h- clicking Like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... on a post, and then it says, "You're connected." I'm like, "Ah, damn it," 'cause I don't actually wanna like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
... (laughs) go through the effort of like connecting. I was just, I was just liking the post, you know? Um, Scott Galloway talks about this. Uh, I can't remember what the numbers, I can't remember what the numbers are. But the point, the point is, is there's a massive disparity of men that just don't ever connect. Um, and there's nothing more dangerous in a modern society than a lonely man, right? And if you look at terrorism, and if you look at m- mass homicide, and things like that, eh, it's very often a lonely man, you know? And you add in sex and, um, uh, and, um, and incels and, you know, you know, the Middle East, for example, you know, it's 25% a- a- a- during the height of terrorism, you know, a bunch of years ago, it was 25% unemployment in the region. In a shame-based society where you have young men living at home and who aren't employed and they've never had sex because there's no sex before marriage, and how are you ever gonna meet a girl when you live at home and you don't have a job? And then all of a sudden, that stress comes out somewhere. And I think we don't talk about sex and sexuality as a part of, um, our other behaviors. I mean, I, I, uh, for some reason because we, we've, we think it's bad to connect, you know, a sex life with how people show up in the world. But you take somebody who's sexually frustrated, a sexually frustrated man in their mid to late 20s, um, and all of that pressure and insecurity and, you know, now desperation, like, it comes out in horrible ways and the, the need to exert control.... comes out in horrible ways, different conversation. Scott Galloway, I said, you know, has some fantastic numbers on this. So I think, um, you know, the dating apps, uh, aren't necessarily fair. That's one thing, you know? It's not like everybody's gonna find somebody. But I do think that there's something wrong with shopping for people, um, and I- uh, the thing that I lament about dating apps that's really, and maybe this is just me, uh, 'cause I'm- hate first dates, um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, God's sake.
- SSSimon Sinek
... uh, the worst, um, but the reason, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why do you hate them?
- SSSimon Sinek
... pre- pre- pre- predating apps or let's- not predating apps, it's just when there's no dating app being used, the way that we traditionally would meet somebody is you meet them at a party, at a dinner party, you meet them at the pub, you, you know, you bump into them at a museum, you make small talk or you eye them up from across the room and there's some attraction and then one of you musters up the courage to go up and start flirting and have a conversation, and at some point you say, "Can I get your number? I'd love to, I'd love to continue this." And they'll say yes or no, and the flirting and the initial traction has already happened, and so the first date is actually the first date after the initial attraction and flirting. Now, with dating apps, the flirting, the initial attraction, the attempt to court someone is all happening simultaneously on the first date. There's a lot, there's a lot of pressure-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
... for a first meeting where, you know, when you meet somebody in, in IRL, it's like, you know, it's happened.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's the initial attraction has already happened. Um, there's no expectation they're no- not- they're not gonna look like their picture. They're gonna look like exactly what they're gonna look like when you met them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's dinner, so there could be three hours allocated, it could be-
- SSSimon Sinek
Ugh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... expensive meal.
- SSSimon Sinek
Whatever it is. Um, I don't... I, I think there's nothing, quote unquote, wrong with online dating. I just think we, we like everything. Like, there's nothing wrong with online shopping, but there's the reason that bricks and mortar stores still exist and that Amazon is opening stores. It's because people like to go shopping, it's a hunter-gatherer thing. Like, there's entertainment. It's more than the, than the purchase, it's more than the transaction, it's the browsing we enjoy. You know, it's, it's in our DNA, you know? And, and, and I think that there's nothing wrong with online, but I think that, that making an effort to do, you know, in real life things should be, should be included, should be balanced. You know, it's like I... Like everything in the world, I'm a great believer in balance. I don't usually rail for or against something, I'm usually about talking about balances and imbalances. Even social media, like much, so much has been said about, you know, what I've said about social media and, and Millennials, et cetera, I'm not against it, I'm talking about balance and it's out of balance. You know, uh, uh, you know, even corporate culture, you know, I'm not against many of the modern things, I'm against the imbalance. You know, capitalism is unbalanced in, in its current form, so when we usually feel discomfort or anger or frustration, it's usually due to the imbalances, um, isn't that what... where this conversation started? You know, that, you know, feelings of loneliness, something's out of balance, you know? And this is why I call it fitness rather than health, because fitness is the attempt to maintain equilibrium, maintain a state of balance. Sometimes it tips one way and sometimes it tips the other way and it's- you're constantly working to maintain balance. That's what all of this stuff is. Business is the same, you're an entrepreneur, it's feast or famine. Like, it's never the right amount, you know? And you're constantly working on balance and I think that's why... That's the strongest argument for playing the long game which is, it's always teetering.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That means you have to constantly be alert and constantly be working because if it tips too far good, it's gonna tip the other way. Don't, don't rest on your laurels, make y- make sure you have got money in the bank, like stock markets just don't go straight up, it's not how it works, right? At the same time, when it goes the other way, it's like, don't worry, this too shall pass, this also won't last. Start working on some skills that you maybe haven't worked on, start reaching out to people, start apologizing. You know, if you've been so self-involved with yourself and now you're in a lonely place, sometimes being lonely, like, is calling up a friend and saying, "I've been an asshole and I am sorry and I'm looking... I'm in a really dark place right now and I'm just looking back thinking, 'Oh my God, I've been so self-involved that there's no one around me to be there for...' And I am so, so sorry." You know? And again, it goes right back to everything we were talking about, which is, it's accoun- it's accountable for my... It's accountable for me versus victim of me, you know? That, that I'm not a victim of the world around me, you know? Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
What impact has that had on your self-esteem? The, the, the realization, the awareness that you, you are feeling lonely. Has it had any impact on your self-esteem at all? Does it?
- SSSimon Sinek
Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Especially some of those confronting some of those ho- tough truths from the past.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a good question. You know, again, I'll go back to what I said before, I'll go back to what I said before which is, um, you can have, we can have multiple feelings at the same time even if those feelings are opposite. So I can be insecure and confident at the same time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? But so much of it is situational, right? I'm not insecure every moment of every day. Of course not, nobody is, but I'm not confident every moment of every day. Of course not, nobody is. And if you're stuck in one of those things, then there's a problem of like, if you really are overly confident every moment of every day with no actual self-doubt in your mind, there's something wrong there, there's something... (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
There's neurodivergence going on there, right? Um, we know this, we know that narcissists are actually filled of self-loathing, you know, for all their bluster and power, they hate themselves, right? We know this, um, and agains- I think it's all situational, I think it's all... And so- uh, and I've- I- I- I- I've talked about this, which is...... which is, I don't believe in, you and I have talked about this, which is, I don't believe in strengths and weaknesses, or right or wrong. I believe everything is contextual. So, you know, people do these evaluations, "What are my strengths? What are my weaknesses?" No, what are your characteristics and what are your attributes? And then once you know those things, you have to know in what contexts those characteristics or attributes are advantages, and in what contexts those attributes are disadvantages. And work very hard to put yourself in contexts where you're gonna be working to your strengths. So if you have a natural capacity for maths, right, you're just really, you're just really good, like people say out numbers and you just add them up in your head immediately and you don't have to pull out your fingers, right? You're just good at it, right? Put yourself in a situation where that's an advantage. If, if you are maths, like, incapable, don't become an accountant no matter how many people tell you it's a good thing to become an accountant. Right? It's just not gonna go well for you. So you can go down the list of our personal attributes, and I have attributes, um, where, for example, I think out loud. Is that a strength or a weakness?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Context dependent.
- 1:05:23 – 1:21:23
Learning to understand yourself
- SBSteven Bartlett
deeper understanding, which is exactly what I needed. I needed understanding. I needed, and I also created a space where we could say, "Listen, when I'm feeling like this, this is how I'd love you to, to respond." Which often is just like-
- SSSimon Sinek
Just-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... just listen. (laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
... just, just sit in the mud with me, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, exactly, and don't, don't, don't necessarily say anything, don't try, you know... Your point about fixing it, my girlfriend, she's so, through all of her love, and, and I'm the same with her, and I, I'm just the same with everybody, I will always try and fix.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. It, it, men, men are worse than women-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
... when it comes to fixing. Uh, my, I, I've been on the receiving end of that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I dated somebody who, if I asked her, "How are you?" "Great," was the only answer she ever gave me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's all I've ever said to people.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, uh, and it actually made it very difficult for me to get close to her, because I knew that she was having bad days, I could tell when she was frustrated, and she... And so when somebody puts on that brave face and always wants to be great for their partner, it's the most selfish thing you can do, because you're denying them that awesome joy of being able to be there for you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Remember, as social animals, we want to take care of the people we love. And how dare you, how dare you deny them the, the unbelievable honor of getting to sit in the mud with you? You know, it is, it is a joy that human beings get to experience. And one of the things, if, you, you can, by the way, the biology proves it, that one of the things that releases oxytocin, which is that feeling of love and connection and trust, is shared struggle.Shared struggle releases oxytocin, which is why when families go through tragedy, they get closer, which is why syn- so- when societies go through hurricanes, there's intense, you know, politics get put aside and we support each other, right? And it's the same in a relationship, which is if you allow someone to sit and struggle with you, it actually deepens the relationship-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... biologically. Um, so but what we're talking about is risk. What we're talking about is being vulnerable, making, you know, and it requires more courage, as you've learned. It actually requires more strength to say, "I'm anxious today," than it does to lie and say, "Everything's great." That's the irony. Superficially, it's stronger, but in reality, it's cowardice. And by the way, that doesn't make it easy. The words are easy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
And I've definitely been there, and you've been there. Um, but I, I think that if we like someone, um, and it only, and I always say leadership is about going first. That's why we call you leader, right? Doesn't mean you're, have the answers. It doesn't mean you're right. It just means you st- stepped first into the unknown, that we, uh, took the risk to go first. And so in a relationship, one of you can take the lead. One of you can go first to set the example of what it looks like and feels like to say, "I'm having a bad day today, and I don't need you to fix it. I know what I'm going through. I want you to, I wanna tell you all of this stuff because I want you to be there with me, and I wanna be there with you 'cause I don't wanna feel this way alone."
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that key second step, which I, I learned literally in the car this weekend with my partner, was you then need to work with them to educate them on, and vice versa, on how you would like to be held-
- SSSimon Sinek
Correct.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in that moment-
- SSSimon Sinek
Correct.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... which is actually a really difficult thing-
- SSSimon Sinek
Correct.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because, um, for example, I'll give you an example with me and my partner. When I'm going through those moments, I go really quiet.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I shut down. I'm glued to my phone. And so if she says something to me, I, my brain almost viewed it as like, "Why is she bothering me in my hard moment?" So I might say something like, "Babe, I'm just dealing with something." And then it's, it always seemed to me like she'd ask me more questions.
- SSSimon Sinek
Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"Hey, babe, look at this. Come look at this. Look at this." And I, I-
- SSSimon Sinek
She's trying.
Episode duration: 2:00:17
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