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Simon Sinek: Why Thigh Strength Predicts Real Friendships

Sinek says strong thighs predict longevity because they track a life rich in friendship; loneliness, not work, is the real biohack to fix today.

Simon SinekguestSteven Bartletthost
Jun 17, 20242h 2mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:17

    Intro

    1. SS

      You wanna know why we're lonely? 'Cause we have architected our lives to be lonely. We are social animals. Of course it's hurting us. And so the question is, is what can you do? And this is the one thing that I learned that was the greatest lesson I ever learned in my life. The true skill that we've lost, and everybody's guilty of this, is-

    2. SB

      Simon Sinek.

    3. NA

      The best-selling author, sought-after speaker, and unshakeable optimist is back with one solution that aims to solve some of the biggest issues we face today.

    4. SS

      Everyone's looking for a biohack for all the problems that we're facing today, rising suicide, rising anxiety, depression, addiction, mental health, and there's one biohack that's better than all of the things that we're trying, which is friendship. But we are not good at making friends and we're not good at looking after friends. There's an entire industry to help people become better leaders, to help us maintain better relationships, and there's no industry to teach us how to be a better friend. And yet people with close friendships are healthier, they live longer, they better deal with stress, less likely to become addicted. Friendship is the thing that actually protects us. So why aren't we prioritizing our friendships? It's because we actually don't know how to do it. Mass transportation, technology, social media, all of these things, they've interrupted our ability to make friends. Or sometimes we have old friends where the only bond is time. But is it a friend simply because you've known somebody for a long time? They give you no joy, give you no inspiration. And if you have good friendship, you will not feel lonely. So yes, friends are allowed to change, and it's never too late to make a friend.

    5. SB

      So how do I make friends?

    6. SS

      I guarantee you will make friends by learning how to .......................... That's all it takes.

    7. SB

      We've just hit six million subscribers on The Diary of a CEO. Um, so me and my team would like to do something we've never done before as a little thank you, and we're calling it The Diary of a CEO Subscriber Raffle, and here is how it works. Every episode this month, we're going to pick three current subscribers at random, and we'll send one of you a 1,000-pound voucher, one of you tickets to come and watch The Diary of a CEO behind the scenes live with our team, and one of you will have a 10-minute phone call with me to discuss whatever you want to talk about. If you're a subscriber, you're in the raffle. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to do something that me and my team love doing so much. It is the greatest honor of my lifetime and I hope it, I hope it continues, uh, off into the future. Let's get to the episode.

  2. 2:17 – 5:43

    Simon's take on the times we are living in

    1. SB

      Simon.

    2. SS

      Hi, Stephen. Good to see you again.

    3. SB

      Good to see you again. It's interesting, 'cause we've had a lotta conversations, and, um, ahead of the conversation today, I really asked myself what, what are the subjects and themes that are front of mind for me at the moment and subjects that I'm struggling to understand and grapple with and find solutions and answers to. And the sort of macro picture that I have in my head at the moment, um, is that there's quite a lot of struggle going on because th- the world has changed quite profoundly.

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      And the struggle is showing up in a variety of ways. We're seeing it in our mental health, which I know you refer to as mental fitness. We're seeing it in suicidality. We're seeing it in the, the rise in loneliness, which is something we talked about last time. But also now there's these other forces at play, like artificial intelligence, which feels like a threat, um, an increase in digitalization and a falling connection. What is your, what is your take on this moment in time, the times we're living in?

    6. SS

      These are complicated times, and complex times, and I think they are more important leaderless times. Um, we're seeing the rise of populist movements and strongmen leaders not necessarily because they are the great leaders of the day, but because I think people are desperately lacking for meaning and purpose and to feel like we're going somewhere. We want to be led. People want to be led. Whether it's young people who are protesting on their school campuses or whether during COVID it was anti-vaxxers or anti-maskers, you know, whether it was Brexit or... you know, I think they're all very much the same, whether it's the left side of politics or the right side of politics, which is they're all basically anti-establishment movements. And you usually see anti-establishment when people feel forgotten and left out by whatever the establishment is doing. In other words, they, they perceive that the establishment are looking after themselves. So I think we leave in, we live in visionless and leaderless times. That's the big challenge of the day, and, uh, and so we find ourselves reactive to each other and against things, but few people can say what they're for.

    7. SB

      So many of my guests have come here, and then after the conversation have turned to me and said they're concerned about their younger child. Often they reference their younger son because they talk about the rise in the sort of toxic male influencers-

    8. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SB

      ... online.

    10. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SB

      Um, and it kinda coincides with what you just said about looking for leaders.

    12. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SB

      And now, you know, some of those leaders that we're looking for are offering us a blueprint of what it is to be a responsible, stable human that involves buying a Lamborghini, having multiple wives, and showing up in a certain way.

    14. SS

      Mm.

    15. SB

      And I've had so many conversations. Uh, uh, in fact one of my guests the other, the other week brought me a dossier-

    16. SS

      Mm.

    17. SB

      ... called Heroic Masculinity, and, um, it was a woman, and she says, "Please can you have more conversations about this subject," and passed it to me. And the reason she's saying that is because she's concerned her son is growing up in a world where he's not going to know what it means to be a good man.

    18. SS

      Well, who are the role models? Like, who are the strong male or female

  3. 5:43 – 10:45

    We don't have strong role models anymore

    1. SS

      role models? Who are teaching us values? Who are teaching us service? Who's teaching us kindness and empathy? In, in leaderless times and lost times, we will follow things that make us feel good.... right? Wealth makes us feel good. Conspicuous consumption makes us feel good because you get that hit of serotonin a- and dopamine. This, this is the reason why I've become really fascinated by the concept of friendship. You know, I haven't written a book in many years and so I've started writing again. And, uh, I'm writing a book with a friend, my friend Will Guidara, um, who wrote Unreasonable Hospitality, and we've decided to write about friendship. Because when you think about all of the problems that we're facing today, mental fitness, mental health, um, rising suicide, rising anxiety, depression, addiction, I mean, take your list. Even people's obsession with longevity. And everyone's looking for a biohack for all those things, and there's one biohack that's better than all of those, all of the things that we're trying, which is friendship. People with close friendships ha- are healthier, they live longer, will have better coping mechanisms which means they better deal with stress. And I'll give you one, an amazing thing. So there's um, a, a very famous experiment that was done, I'm thinking like, the '60s. All of our sort of understanding of addiction is based on this study and it's basically they put a rat in a cage and they gave it, um, plain water or they gave it water laced with drugs, and it tasted both. It got addicted to the water laced with drugs and eventually drank the, that water until it died, right? And so this became our understanding of addiction. Many years later, not that long ago, another scientist said, "Hold on, there's a problem with this experiment." A rat, like a person, is a social animal, and you took this social animal and you put it by itself and then offered it drugs, so you created loneliness and then you offered the drug, right? If you want to make it a good experiment, you have to create the right context. So what it did, it created, he, they created something called Rat Park where basically what they did is they created a new cage filled with things to do and mazes and wheels and, and other rats and they were social. And the rats tasted both waters, the one li- laced with morphine and the one that was just plain. They taste and they drank enough of the morphine-laced one to get addicted and then they stopped. It, it diminishes how much they drank and they only drank the plain water. So basically when you have healthy relationships, we are less likely to become addicted. When we are lonely, we are more likely to create addiction, right? Friendship is the thing that actually protects us. And then if you look at even if you do become addicted, right? Let's take the, the worst case scenario, so let's look at alcoholism, right? Alcoholism, um, we know that to beat alcoholism you join AA. Community, we, and everybody talks about the importance of community and finding your community, right? But Alcoholics Anonymous knows that there's these 12 steps and if you master 11 of the 12 steps, ugh, the disease is probably gonna get you. But if you master the 12th step, the final step, you're more likely to overcome the disease. So what's the 12th step? The 12th step is to help another alcoholic, to become someone's sponsor. In other words, to become a friend. In other words, community, you find community but then the, the final step of beating the disease is a friend where, where you replace the community with a friend and you have both. And we think community is the thing but it's not enough. Yes, you can create belonging with community and people, we, where we started talking about it, where people are latching onto these, these anti-establishment populist movements, it's giving them a sense of community, it's giving them a sense of, of, of shared purpose with a group of people, right? But it's also providing, um, new, new social connections. One of the things we don't do is we are not good at making friends and we're not good at looking after friends. There's an entire industry to help people like us become better leaders. I- I- I'm a part of it. I write books about it, right? There's an entire industry to help people be better parents and if you're gonna have a child or if you've got a child, you've got a child with problems, you know, you read all the books about how be- how to be a better parent. There are no books or precious few books to teach us, and there's no industry to teach us how to be a better friend. Like are you a good friend? Are you a good friend to your friends? Are your friends good to you? You know, who do you, do you call people when you are stuck and down or do you make TikTok videos by yourself which, you know, and you get... I mean, literally people who are depressed make TikTok videos by themselves. I don't know how many times they reshoot that either.

    2. SB

      (laughs)

    3. SS

      To post it, to get the validation for their feelings, but to call a friend and say the same thing you're struggling with is actually more difficult.

    4. SB

      Why doesn't the industry exist? Because typically-

    5. SS

      We take it for granted.

    6. SB

      Yeah, yeah, so the demand isn't

  4. 10:45 – 13:32

    Why isn't there demand for friendship therapy

    1. SB

      there for those kinds of things.

    2. SS

      But that's what, that's the problem which is I think the demand is, is, is, is there and we don't realize it, right? Like we know that our relationships fail and our marriages fail so there's an entire industry to help us maintain better relationships. Well, friendships fail and we think we have friends yet we still struggle and feel lonely. If you have good friendship, you will not feel lonely. You may have moments of loneliness and in those periods, you will pick up the phone and say to your friend, "I need you, I'm lonely," and your friends will be there. You will feel not alone, right? Or, um, and you and I have talked about this about you will feel that someone will get in the mud with you.

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SS

      And I think the problem is is we don't give intention to friendship. We... So think about it, and you and I are both guilty of this. In fact, I would argue that everybody's guilty of this which is we've got plans booked with a friend, let's call it a lunch. A work thing comes up, we call up the friend and go, "I got a work thing," and the reason we keep bumping our friends is 'cause they'll understand, they're our friends. So why aren't we prioritizing our friendships? Why aren't we saying to the work thing, "I'm sorry, I've got a thing, I've got..." If we had another meeting, we would say, "Sorry, I've, I've got an appointment, I can't make it." So why don't we treat our friends with the same intentionality?... that we treat any other meeting. So one of the things that Will did for a friend that I thought was genius, brilliant, beautiful ... Will Guidara, who I'm writing the book with. Um, Will's friend's dad died. Um, Will texted him and said, uh, "I feel for you. I know what you're going through. I lost my mum at an early age. Um, I'm sure you're being inundated with calls and texts, so I'm not gonna call you today. But what I will do is I will call you every single day at 9:45 AM. Do not feel obligated to pick up. I don't mind if you don't. But when you're ready, know that I'm calling you." And for the next, I think it was three months, eight months, something, he called every single day at 9:45 AM. And for the first week, his friend didn't pick up at all, and then after the first week, he picked up every day and they talked every day for months. Like, think about the intentionality that somebody who loves and cares about you so much that they will call you every single day at 9:45 just so that you can see their name pop up on the caller ID to know that you're not alone. I mean, it can ... It brings me to tears just thinking about it. Like, how many of us are, are that good a friend? You know? I want friends like that. Here's a good question. Like, what's a friend? Like, what makes a good friend? Like,

  5. 13:32 – 16:16

    What really is a friend

    1. SS

      I don't even know if we have a definition of that. You know, and I've been asking people. And somebody said to me, "Well, somebody who's there for you in ... You know, to support you in the hard times. That's a real friend." Right? And I got thinking, and I talked to somebody else. She has a friend who she calls Mr. Schadenfreude because he seems to love when things go wrong. So in hard times, he's always there. He's always there in hard times. He's got the ... He gives the shoulder to lean on, he's giving advice. But in good times, he's nowhere to be seen. And so what, what happens is it creates this horrible sort of codependent relationship that you want to keep the hard times because that wonderful human being is always there, so you never wanna let go and you become codependent. And so you realize that there's something called a fair-weathered friend, who's only there in the good times, but be equally cynical and suspicious of the foul-weathered friends, who's only there in the hard times because somehow it makes them feel good about themselves, but they're not for there for the good times. And so you realize what's the, what's the value of good time versus bad time? So yes. Yes, you and I have friends that, in hard times, we would call them, but I would bet money that you have even fewer friends that you want to text out of the blue and say, "I won an award."

    2. SB

      (laughs)

    3. SS

      Right? Think about that. Like, if something goes wrong, I've got a group of friends probably ... I've probably got a, a, you know, a, a dozen people I could say and say, "I need your help. Things have gone horribly wrong. I, I need your advice." But if something amazing happens to me, that number probably shrinks down to four-

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. SS

      ... that I'm gonna text out of the blue and go, "Something amazing happened today," and not feel like I'm bragging-

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SS

      ... not feel like I'm trying to overwhelm them or prove them that I'm better than them, but knowing that they will be so happy for me.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SS

      And so I started thinking that maybe a friend isn't just a person who's there for you in the hard times, but the person you can go to in the great times. Think about that. I have fewer friends that I can go to when things go perfectly-

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SS

      ... than I would go to when things go wrong.

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SS

      So are those my true friends? So this is on the journey I'm on. I'm trying to understand what friend means, and I'm trying to understand the responsibility we have to look after those friends. Um, you look at all the longevity studies, you know, all the Blue Zone work. Sure, they eat healthy. Sure, they walk a lot, but they also eat with each other. Uh, whereas you look at some of the people who are promoting sort of longevity and all of those biohacks and how you have to exercise this certain way and eat this certain way, you'll find a lot of them are pretty unhappy people and pretty lonely people.

    14. SB

      Mm.

    15. SS

      I don't think they're gonna live very long.

    16. SB

      (laughs)

    17. SS

      Right? So here's a crazy, crazy one. Here's a crazy, crazy one. Physiologically, right, what are the most important organs

  6. 16:16 – 18:29

    The most important metric for longevity

    1. SS

      to keep strong for longevity? Like, we know the data, right? So I'll tell you what they are, right? Number one, heart, obviously. That makes perfect sense, right? You gotta have a healthy heart if you wanna live a long time, right? Second one, lungs. Gotta have healthy lungs to live a long time, cardio and all the rest of it, right? Don't smoke. Like, we know that. Makes perfect sense. Do you know what the third most important organ is?

    2. SB

      I don't know. I was gonna say the brain, but ...

    3. SS

      The thighs. Thigh muscles are the, are the ... So if you have a healthy heart, healthy lungs, and healthy thighs, statistically, you're more likely to live longer. I know. I said the same thing. Thighs? Do you wanna know why? Because historically, thighs are the most important muscle responsible for what? Motion, walking.

    4. SB

      Ah.

    5. SS

      Right? Not exercise. Social. Going to visit your friends. Before there were cars, before there were trains, we had to walk to go visit our friends. And so people who are mobile ... If you're more mobile, you're more likely to main frien- maintain friendships, which means you're likely to live longer.

    6. SB

      Mm.

    7. SS

      So the three most important organs to keep healthy, historically, as human beings, heart, lungs, and thighs for mobility.

    8. SB

      Mm.

    9. SS

      Thighs for sociability, which I think is amazing that we never thought about. So all of these things that, you know, technology has interrupted, um, mass transportation, cars (laughs) , you know, uh, tech- uh, social media, all of these things, they've interrupted our ability to make friends, proper friends where you can look each other in the eye.

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SS

      You and I could do this over Zoom.

    12. SB

      (laughs)

    13. SS

      It wouldn't feel the same.

    14. SB

      No. (laughs) But, you know, the, the macro, so the remote work culture, the rise in, as you say, screens and phones optimizing interaction out of our lives. I mean, like, you know, if you think about social networking or Uber Eats or, I don't know, Deliveroo, um, you, you're living your life behind a screen-... in white walls now, and it's, it feels like it's becoming harder and harder and harder to make friends, also to find someone romantic-

    15. SS

      Yeah, yeah.

    16. SB

      ... but to make friends. In fact, you just, well, it's an interesting thing is, sometimes when I come offstage, I'll have, it's always young men come up to me, and they'll get right up in my personal space, and I go, "This is strange." And then they'll say something

  7. 18:29 – 22:25

    Have we lost the skill of making friends?

    1. SB

      to me like, um, "How do I make friends?" And they s- and I, I respect them so much for saying it because I can see how difficult it is for them to utter that, those words.

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      And I reflect on a, I was doing s- something at Canary Wharf and a kid in the front row, in a crowd of 500 people, they're all wearing suits 'cause they're working in the corporate world, he's surrounded by 500 of his peers his age. In the front row, past the microphone, his question to me on stage is, "How do I make friends?"

    4. SS

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      And there's 499 people sat next to him that h- are his age.

    6. SS

      Yep.

    7. SB

      And he's asking in the front row, "How do I make friends?"

    8. SS

      Yeah.

    9. SB

      And I was, it was so moving because, you know, looking, looking down on that individual surrounded by people, I'm like, well, you know, you know, the brain, the simple brain goes, "Well, just turn to the person next to you to introduce yourself," but clearly, (laughs) that was not... not the answer. 'Cause if it was so simple, he would just do that. And you said something interesting as well, which I think maybe overlays with that, which is that we've kind of, like, lost the art or the skill of making friends.

    10. SS

      Yep.

    11. SB

      What would you have said to that kid?

    12. SS

      So I'll tell you by way of a story how I would answer that. So a friend of mine was, uh, struggling. Uh, her career, it wasn't going as well as she'd wanted, and her marriage was in a bad place. So in other words, when it rains, it pours, like, sh- she couldn't get a break, right? And she was in a really bad place. And so she knows what I do for a living, so she said, she asked me, "Can you help? Can I come and talk to you and get some advice?" And I said, "Of course." And so we had a standing Wednesday meeting, get-together. We got together every Wednesday for 90 minutes, and she would tell me what was going on in her life. I gave her some advice. She felt amazing when she left me. It lasted about two days, and then she'd go back into her slump. And then we'd get together the next Wednesday, she'd feel amazing for about two days, and she'd go back into a slump, and this went on for months. This was our pattern, right? So I thought I was doing good work and then it, then I'd just ri- rinse and repeat, right? Then I remembered my own work, and I remembered Alcoholics Anonymous, which is the final step, the 12th step is service, helping somebody who's struggling with the problem you're struggling with, right, is the way to actually help you overcome your problem. So I s- I have struggles, I have needs, I have f- um, uh, insecurities, and I don't have a safe outlet to talk to, so I, she's one of my closest friends in the world, I trust her implicitly. So I said to her, "Can, I need s- the coaching as well. Can we split our time, 45 minutes for me, 45 minutes for you." She agreed, and it was k- I was, I knew what I was doing, right? There was kind of an experiment happening, which I didn't let on, which is, I wanted her to help me as a way of helping herself. And so what ended up happening was, it would d- it would cease to be 45/45. I g- we got together, and for 90 minutes, we talked about me. And then the next Wednesday, we got together, and for 90 minutes, we talked about me. And then we got together, and for 90 minutes, we talked about me. And within about three or four weeks, her life was full on back on track, fully back on track. Because when you help someone with a thing that you're struggling with, you actually end up solving your own problems.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SS

      And so what I would say to that kid is, "Find somebody who's struggling to make a friend and help them make a friend." Make it an act of service, because fundamentally, if we dig down deep, the th- the true skill that we've lost is service. We've over-emphasized taking over giving. We've over-emphasized selfish over selfless. Selfish is important, taking is important, but not at the expense of giving, um, and not at the, the expense of serving, right? We've lost, we're out of balance, and I think we, we've lost the ability to serve society, we've lost the ability to serve each other. Um, you know, the Prime Minister calls for national service and literally the whole country erupts and says, "Are you trying not to get reelected?" You know?

    15. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SS

      Um...

    17. SB

      What did you think of that?

    18. SS

      I thought it was brilliant. I do believe in, in, in service. It doesn't have to be military

  8. 22:25 – 31:03

    Why national service is so important

    1. SS

      service. You know, when we say national service, go be a teacher in the inner city for a year. You know, go, go work on a one day a month in a hospital. W- go f- work for one weekend, one day per month in a, in, in hospice and palliative care, right? Serve other human beings who are underserved or forgotten. Serve your nation in some way, shape, or form. Put, you know, let the government give you a list of 20 or 30 options of things you can do, um, and say that if you do these things, it makes you eligible for, you know, scholarships, it makes you eligible for whatever. You know, um, I'm a great believer in it, just like you can get, in at least the United States, very, very generous packages for education if you serve in the military. Give very generous packages for education if you do any of these other things, teaching, you know, like, we have problems, you know, we, we, we're losing teachers. Okay, well, we can fill those gaps.

    2. SB

      Wha- why is, do you think that would help our society at large over the coming years if we did that?

    3. SS

      L- because I think the skill that s- the skills that people learn when they serve, A, they learn hard work, but they learn to be a part of something larger than themselves, and you talk to anybody who goes off and does, um, volunteer work or takes a gap year where they go and do service, or anyone who's gone to combat, right? And you talk to, if you talk to soldiers, uh, or marines who've, who've, who've been in the shit, none of them wanna go to combat. It's not f- fun. There's very, very, very few combat-related suicides. In other words, suicides don't happen in a combat situation. They come, they happen when they come back home, right? Um, and they all weirdly have warm feelings about their time in combat.And it's not the shooting and the fear, it's the intense responsibility and awesome feeling to be there to look after each other. Not just to feel looked after, but to look after another. I talked to Navy SEALs and I talked to SEAL Team 6, and I wanted to understand the why of the SEAL teams. These are, this is one of the highest performing organizations on the planet, right? And you think it's gonna be about brawn and courage and all the stupid things that the outside world thinks that the commandos and the special operators have. It's actually not that at all, which is they care for each other more than others think possible. It's their love of each other that makes them special operators. And their courage doesn't come from raw courage. I've asked many, I've talked to many, many, many SEALs and special operators about this. They d- they don't have just raw courage to run into danger and all of this stuff, it's that they fear letting down their comrades more than dying. And we saw it happen recently where a, a, a SEAL mission, one of the SEALs fell into the water and another SEAL dived in to catch him, and they both died, right? They feel, they fear letting each other down more than dying. That, that cannot be described anything else. There's no other word to capture that feeling than love. That is love at a level that few of us will ever understand, and that love is so deep that a lot of them have failed marriages because when their wives say to them, "It's either me or the, or your fellow SEALs," they choose their fellow SEALs. That's love. That's love. And even my, even m- in my world, like y- you and I, you and I have colleagues and coworkers. In the military, they have brothers and sisters. Those relationships are real. And I remember the first time a friend of mine in uniform called me brother. We're on the phone and he said, "Hey, brother." It was the first time he called me brother, and I felt it. That, that... You don't use that term loosely. It's not a, it's not just a generic term of endearment. You earn to be called brother or sister. Mm-hmm. And I, I remember when he called me brother, th- that it meant something. And this guy, uh, this guy, this friend of mine, he's s- still active duty. He's a combat hero. He's p- risked his life. He's put himself in harm's way. He's saved the lives of people. He's an absolute warrior, right? He's a, he is by any definition a fricking badass fucking warrior, right? And he was the first man who said to me, "I love you." We got off the phone and he goes... We're just saying goodbye to each other. We had a nice long conversation. We got off the phone and he goes, "I love you." He didn't say, "Love ya." He didn't say, "Love you." He said, "I love you." (laughs) That's real. And we, we hedge because we're afraid of our emotions. We're afraid of expressing ourselves to each other. We say things like that. We say, "Love ya," even, "Love you." Say those three words to somebody, they are excruciatingly, excruciatingly difficult unless you actually mean it. "I love you." And it was so powerful that now every time he and I talk, and we talk politics and we talk global stuff and we talk leadership, we have, you know... And then at the end of our calls I'll say, "All right, I'll talk to you real soon. I love you." He goes, "I love you too." That's how we end our phone calls. And I started experimenting. I started saying those words to the, especially the men in my life that I love and care about desperately, my male friends. It's easier to say to a woman. There's, there's less of a stigma, right? And guys who are g- some of my guy friends who are... if you met them, you would describe them as not very warm. You would describe them as distant or cold or guarded, and they are. Um, and I remember s- taking the risk, saying to them when we got off the phone or when I said goodbye to them, when I was hanging out with them, I said, "I love you." And, and in not... In very short order, they started saying it back. And we would hug differently and we would kiss each other on the cheek, you know? And, like, one of my friends who... He's a cold guy. He's not, he's not warm. He's lovely and smart and fantastic and funny, but he's not warm. It took him a long time. And I always said it to him, "I love you. I love you." And he, he goes, "Yeah-huh. Okay." And I would like hug him and kiss him on the cheek goodbye. He's like, "Okay." And then he started saying, "I love you" back. And this is what I've learned from the highest performing teams on the planet. This is what I've learned from people who understand service, that you cannot, you cannot have service without developing some sort of love. And so I think, I think to go all the way back to the question from that kid in the front row, "How do I make friends?" You can't make a friend until you learn how to serve because friendship is fundamentally service. Friendship is an act of service, and if you don't know the skill of service, then you probably don't know how to be a friend, let alone make a friend. I think you have to learn to be a friend before you can make a friend. Because only, people only want to be your friend- Mm-hmm. ... if you know how to be their friend, right? Which is not like having fun, which is not like going out and get pissed with your mates. That's fun. Those are mates. Are those friends that you love? Hmm. Maybe, sometimes. Sometimes there's overlap. Uh, that's the other problem. And I c- I live in America where you meet somebody once and they call you friend. And the problem is I think we overuse the word friend, right? Like, if you have a, a mild melanoma and you have stage 4 liver cancer, we call both those things cancer. Clearly, they're not the same thing. And I think we have the same problem with the word friend. Like, somebody you hang out with casually, it's, it's a laugh.... you know, we call that person friend. But then somebody who we have deep love for and we would be there for them no matter what, we call that person friend. Best friend doesn't seem to capture it either.

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SS

      And so I think we need more words. Like, I've started using the word acquaintance. I've started using the word work friend, uh, or deal friend. That's, like, in, in finance. Right? I like them, I get along with them, I enjoy them, I, h- h- ha- but if we weren't working, if we weren't, if our c- companies weren't working together, would I hang out with them as much? Probably not. I probably would make less of an effort. Right?

    6. SB

      Are you, are you religious?

    7. SS

      I believe in belief.

    8. SB

      What

  9. 31:03 – 36:44

    The importance of belief

    1. SB

      does that mean?

    2. SS

      I believe in the importance of believing in something. And so for those who choose faith, traditional faith as the thing to believe in and offer guidance, I think that's good. Um, for people who find cause, whether it's social cause, um, or some type of other cause to feel a part of, I, I think, I think it is essential that we believe in something. I b- I believe in belief.

    3. SB

      It's funny 'cause all the s- the subjects we were talking about then, about community and other subjects you, that kind of intersect with that service and purpose-

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      ... these all came inherent within religion.

    6. SS

      Yeah.

    7. SB

      Religion gave us all of these once upon a time. Now in the absence of religion, like, and the rise in digitalization, we're struggling to find those things and we're trying to make 'em, like-

    8. SS

      It's such a good question, right, which is religion provided a code, and arguably a code that you ... So let, let, so here's the example, right? So take the Victorians. There were some incredibly wealthy Victorians who gave tremendous amounts of their worth, wealth back to society. They established charities, they built hospitals. In fact, many of the institutions that exist today were established by wealthy Victorians. And the same is true in the United States, the Carnegies and the Rockefellers, right? And I went and looked this up. I went and looked at the tax code from the Carnegie and Rockefeller days, or the George Eastman days, and I went and looked at the tax code in the UK as well, and there was no sophisticated tax code. In other words, there was no, um, uh, refund or rebate or deduction for giving to charity. Zero. Zero. There was no tax benefit in the UK or the US for giving to charity. And in the conversations with the Carnegies, the Rockefellers, and some of the wealthy Victorians, they all said that they believed that they had a, quote unquote, "moral obligation" to give back to society, and it was born out of religion, without a doubt. They were God-fearing without a doubt, right? But they believed in moral obligations to return their wealth and give something back to societies, establishing universities, hospitals, and the rest of it, right? Now it seems that people give charity if they can get a tax benefit from it. And the question is, is where's the moral obligation coming from? And so when we talk about the fact that people are less religious today, but you, I think your, your assertion is correct. People are, are abandoning the traditional church membership is down. And I would argue that, uh, because the churches have lost relevance, right? Like, take the Catholic Church, for example. Like, you're trying to appeal to young people by wearing 400-year-old clothes and speaking in Latin. Maybe wear jeans and speak English or whatever the local language is. Like, if you want to be, quote unquote, "relevant," you're not changing the faith, abandoning the faith, you're not, you're not blasphemous by changing the, the, the, what you're wearing and s- and, and, and the language you're speaking in. You're still preaching the faith, but you'll find yourself more attractive. I, I had the opportunity to go to Kanye's Sunday service back when it was okay (laughs) to do anything with Kanye. Um, uh, I just was invited as a, as, as a, I was a friend of a friend and I went to the Sunday service, right? And it was, I don't care if you're religious or not, that was a religious experience. Did you ever go?

    9. SB

      I did, yeah.

    10. SS

      It is, it's unbelievable.

    11. SB

      Yeah.

    12. SS

      And f- and you could, and, and for those, uh, a- and when I say for those who haven't gone, like, anybody could go, you just had to get on the sign-up sheet. Like, you could just sign, anyone could go, it was open to the general public. It just sold out quick. I mean, it was free but the, the list filled up quickly. Um, and, uh, basically what happened was there's a, there's a band, a choir in the middle, and the parishioners sat all the way in a circle around the outside. You sat there, your body was consumed by song and music, and it was, and you know there's like Sufi tradition where music becomes the thing, the way you, the way you find spirituality, the way you find meditation. Or like the whirling dervishes who spin around in the music and the, and it's the repetition, and it was sitting in this beautiful place consumed by songs that went on for 10 minutes each that you found spirituality whether you had traditional religion, you know, in your life or not. And, um, there was community, and I, I for one went with a friend, and, uh, I think that's what traditional church doesn't realize which is you can modernize old beliefs. And if you do that, you will find relevance amongst young people. Um, but young people are looking for something. There's something called Hillsong which is an-

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SS

      ... American church but it's, uh, the joke is it's like where all the pretty people go to pray. Um, it's young and it's relevant and the, like, the pastor has, like, got a beard and an earring and, you know, jeans and, you know, Doc Martens and there's a rock band and, but they preach the Gospel. And it has, and it fills up entire arenas. Um, so people are looking to f- belong to something and they're looking to believe in something and they're looking to be led, and they're looking for community and they're looking for, um, um, codes of conduct and values that they can, that they can, um, uh-... keep alive in their own lives and their own traditions. And, um, there are precious few of those places left, which is why I think people are desperately looking for them and latching onto kind of the first thing that shows up.

    15. SB

      I think it's one of the biggest op- business opportunities of our time as well. I, I say this at multiple levels. I'm talking about

  10. 36:44 – 39:36

    Remote connection vs in person

    1. SB

      if I'm an entrepreneur thinking about where to start a business, but also if I'm an entrepreneur and I'm thinking about how to run my company and my culture.

    2. SS

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      I, it's funny, this, uh, I've got one particular opinion that went out of fashion and now has come into fashion over the course of the pandemic, which is-

    4. SS

      (laughs)

    5. SB

      ... I always believed in doing things in person and having people together. Even this podcast, never did it over Zoom, even through the pandemic. We just, too far a distance, and get, if someone couldn't come in, then, i- we weren't gonna release. I just didn't wanna, 'cause it's, what's the point, right? S- but also in terms of company culture, I think companies now that offer... I'm in so many interviews, I don't think people would believe. I'm in so many interviews where the candidate asks me to check that they're gonna be going... I was in one yesterday with a young 25-year-old, uh, lady, um, she a- she checked that people were gonna come in the office and be together. It was almost like she wasn't gonna take the job unless we off, we were a community. We, she was talking about run clubs, she was talking about Reformer Pilates, she was talking about that she likes to do climbing walls, and she wanted to check that we, we were in the office together. And I think, you know-

    6. SS

      Good for her.

    7. SB

      ... You know what I mean? But, like, the, the, the narrative through the pandemic, especially led by the West Coast of America, was that remote forever, and, um, you know, all that kind of thing. But it's, I've always believed that the fundamental needs of human being will mean that connection and being together will be, will prevail.

    8. SS

      Yeah, I, I agree with that. But, but, but how much damage has to be done until we get there, you know? And I think we have a responsibility to help people, like, to, to bring people together. So, one of the trends that w- I'm seeing in the States at least is young people, especially those who started their careers in the pandemic or slightly before the pandemic, who kind of fell in love with the whole rom- the romance of the, you know, remote work thing, um, are struggling, a lot of them are struggling with mental health challenges, with mental fitness challenges. And when they're forced to come into work, which is actually an antidote, once they get there, they freak out, and they think that it's the, the workspace that's making it more stressful, but it's not. It's that you've been at home and alone so much that it's like a shock to the system to come back in.

    9. SB

      Mm.

    10. SS

      You know? It's like, it's like when you're out of shape and you go to the gym, it really hurts. You have to stick with it.

    11. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SS

      You know? Um, it's like when you get off drugs and you go through withdrawal, you, makes you wanna go back to the drug. Right? And so my fear is that the connection that it's the being at home in a remote work environment is the thing that's making me mentally unfit, and it's not the coming back into work, even though it hurts and it's a shock when I come in, and I run away from it. I, I have to, I have to stick with it. I have to keep going to the gym. I have to stay off the juice. Like, you know, um...

    13. SB

      Do you think this is in part because the office is outdated? It was a concept

  11. 39:36 – 44:26

    Is the office outdated?

    1. SB

      that was designed, like, you know, multiple decades ago, and the needs of the human being in the modern world, if the way we're saying it's much more about connection and community, like, the office itself should be redesigned. It should be a, it should serve more as a community, like, center-

    2. SS

      Well, I mean-

    3. SB

      ... versus just a place to

    4. NA

      You know, like-

    5. SS

      I mean, the office has changed multiple times to reflect the times. I mean, it used to be, you know, the executives had the corner offices with windows, and the rest of us had, you know, cubes in the middle, and then at some point, we started giving the nice offices to the, to younger people on the outside, and then we f- made the outside offices the conference rooms, and then we went to open plan. I mean, like, the offices have taken multiple different cultural changes. Rightfully so. The office should reflect the times. You're right. You know, one of my favorite ones is, if you visit the Pixar offices, the way Steve Jobs helped design the Pixar office is they put the bathrooms in the middle. Uh, most, most offices have the bathrooms on the outside? And they put the bathrooms in the middle. So no matter where you worked, you had to walk past other people to go to the loo, and at some point during the day, everyone has to go to the loo.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SS

      And so that was done on purpose to force you to interact and, and have serendipity. Um, but little things like that. Um, communal eating. I'm a huge fan of communal eating. I'm a huge fan of like, "Let's go, let's, let's eat together." Um, uh, you know, I built my office to feel like a living room. There's, like, different living room areas. You can sit up here. You can sit over there. But it's just couches.

    8. SB

      Mm.

    9. SS

      And people sit wherever they want, and you know, people have their, quote unquote, "their desk," you know, where they like to sit. And there's back rooms if you need to make calls. But it's all just couches. It's all super comfy. It feels like, it feels like a home. If people wanna work at home, great. Here's a home. Literally. You walk into my office. I mean, you've been there.

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SS

      It's a home.

    12. SB

      It's a home, yeah.

    13. SS

      It's, it's a home. Uh, and, uh, 'cause I want people to f- have, have that home experience. We've got a fridge and a kitchen, and you can-

    14. SB

      Mm.

    15. SS

      ... you know?

    16. SB

      I can imagine the rebuttal to a lot of people that are listening to us, where they genuinely, they have an hour commute to go into some horrible little cubicle, surrounded ... Uh, they have to wear a suit. They get no freedom. So my bias is that, obviously I'm the CEO of the company, so I have a, you know, these freedoms, and our, our culture is much more relaxed and free.

    17. SS

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      But there's a lot of people that their relationship with work is ... it's awful. It's like an awful place to be.

    19. SS

      Yeah, and I think, so the question is, great, okay, so instead of rejecting it, how would you redesign it to make you wanna come in? Okay, you don't wanna wear a suit? Don't wear a suit. Maybe you only have to wear a suit if you have a meeting with a client. That seems ... if, if you're in that kind of business.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. SS

      You know? I live in Los Angeles where everybody dress likes, everybody dresses like 16-year-olds. But, you know, that seems fair. Wear a suit only when you're meeting with a client if that, if your business requires that. Um, otherwise wear whatever. Um, you know, so, and, and so w- again, it goes back to service, which is, I think that people have to earn the right to complain. Right? And you earn the right to complain by trying in some small way to fix the problem yourself. Not exhausting every possibility. Like, you're not allowed to complain about politics unless you've at least voted.

    22. SB

      Mm.

    23. SS

      Right? You don't have to have joined a movement. You don't have to have campaigned. Just the minimum, the minimum...... then you can complain about anything you like. And so if you've tried to fix the office, then you can complain about the office. If you just sit at home and whine about it, eh, nah, like, maybe, like, get involved? And don't do it for yourself, here's we go back to service, don't do it for yourself, do it for the other people who hate coming to work for an hour-long commute to sit in a little cubicle and wear a suit that they don't wanna wear. Do it for the people you love. Do it for the people you care about. Do it for the person to the left and the person to the right. Don't do it for yourself, you selfish bastard. Right? Do it for someone else, to make their feeling of coming to work better.

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. SS

      How can you make it feel better for somebody else you work with to come to work? And that's what we're missing. We're all about ourselves, and yet we've forgotten ab- Email is another one. You know why you get so many emails? 'Cause you send so many emails. Stop BCCing everybody, stop CCing everybody. Like, when somebody says, "What time's the meeting?" and you reply all and write "3:00." Or, "What do you want for lunch?" and you reply and write, "Chicken please," like, you made everybody open that email, you thoughtless bastard. Right? Why don't you help everybody else get to Inbox Zero, instead of worrying about you getting to Inbox Zero? So in other words, pick up the phone when possible. You know? Send fewer emails, take people off the CC list. Like I get an email, it's got five people CC'd, I realize that my reply only really matters to two people and I take people off the CC list. You know? Because I want them to have fewer emails, because otherwise everybody's hitting, you know, hitting reply all and then we're all, you know, suffering from email bankruptcy.

    26. SB

      (laughs)

    27. SS

      The, um ... Anyway, acts of service, acts of service. I mean, there's so many little things,

  12. 44:26 – 46:20

    The importance of acts of service

    1. SS

      there's so many little things, um, uh, stupid things, stupid things. I was walking down the streets of New York and a guy was parking his car, and, uh, it happened to be a huge space, big enough for two cars, right? Like, and he parked right in the middle.

    2. SB

      Hmm.

    3. SS

      And it wasn't like it was this brand new car that he was, like, afraid of getting it bumped or nothing, it was just, it was just a car, right? And I said to him, "Hey," I sort of, like, tapped on the, sort of, like, waved down his window, like, I waved, I'm like, "Hey, just so you know there's a ton of room behind you or in front of you."

    4. SB

      Mm.

    5. SS

      "If you move your car up or back, you'll make room for another car." And he goes, "There's no room." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, I'm standing out here, there's, you got, like, five feet in front of you, like, there's plenty of room. I'll, I'll, I'll guide you if you want." You know, I was being super nice about it. And he goes, "I think it's just fine." I'm like, "Well, no, no, no, no, I, like, you, another car could par-" He goes, "Are you trying to park your car?" he says to me. I said, "No, but I- I've tried to park in New York before and I know it's hard to find a space so, you know, may- maybe it'd be nice to pull your car up and let another ..." And the guy would hear nothing of it, he turned his car off and got out of the car and walked away. And, like, that's what I mean, you know, which is, you know, here's the advice I wanted to tell him, well, I didn't say this, but I wanted to be like, "Hey, just can I offer you an observation? You live in the world." Like, "You live in the world. There are other people in the world. And I'm not asking you to give up your weekends and work in hospitals, I'm not asking you to join the military, I'm not asking you to give up your salary and become a teacher, I'm not asking you to do any of those things. I'm asking you to consider that somebody else might wanna park, and it's an act of service to, like, move your car to make a little room for somebody who you don't know." Like-

    6. SB

      Do you think that individualism is hurting us-

    7. SS

      Yes.

    8. SB

      ... on an individual level

    9. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SS

      I

  13. 46:20 – 49:44

    Is the rise of individualism hurting us?

    1. SS

      mean, is, like, uh, uh, of course. You wanna know why we're lonely? 'Cause we've, we've architected our lives to be lonely. Of course it's hurting us. We are social animals who've overindexed on rugged individualism. We hero-ize CEOs. Like, "I love you, you're great, you're wonderful, but people consider you a hero, and their business guru blah, blah, blah. I know for fact that you didn't do it alone, I know for a fact that you've got teams of people who make you look good-"

    2. SB

      What are you talking about? (laughs)

    3. SS

      I know, I know for a fact that people took bets on you, took risks on you. I know for a fact that people made introductions for you, I knew when you had nothing. Sure you had moxie, sure you had talent, but if it weren't for people who tried, supported, helped, you know, opened a door, there would be no Steven Bartlett.

    4. SB

      Of course. Even my parents, the first people I think about is my parents, I don't know why they cared so much about me. I was just, I feel like, you know, kids that feel, they objectively look like such a burden, (laughs) -

    5. SS

      I, uh, I feel the same way.

    6. SB

      ... it's like, you know what I mean? (laughs)

    7. SS

      Do you know what I mean?

    8. SB

      I was like, "Why, why would you do that?" Yeah.

    9. SS

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      Why would my mom and dad care so much about this little bundle of cells? I don't un- understand. They would just, like, kill themselves-

    11. SS

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... to, you know.

    13. SS

      But it matters, but we know parenting matters. We know parents that build up their kids' confidences, uh, really re- you know, okay, parents that are capable of building their kids' confidence really, really matters.

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. SS

      You know? As opposed to telling a kid constantly to do everything wrong. Like, that'll hurt the kid for the rest of their life, and they're gonna have to do a tremendous amount of work to overcome that, you know?

    16. SB

      It's interesting, even on this, overlaid with this is the idea that populations in the Western world are actually declining because we're having less and less kids-

    17. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SB

      We're actually making it more about ourselves, we wanna work longer, we wanna achieve our career goals, and now having kids-

    19. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. SB

      ... that sort of active service of parenting has now become deprioritized-

    21. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SB

      ... and it's a real problem for the Western world-

    23. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. SB

      ... because of the, you know, aging population.

    25. SS

      And very often for selfish reasons, like, "I wanna live my life."

    26. SB

      100%.

    27. SS

      Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, to your point, I think we have, we have forgotten that we're social animals. I mean, like, just go back a few years, a few decades, right? So Second World War, right? Um, the comradery. I mean, think about what happened in, in America and in, in Britain during the Second World War. So during the Blitz, the number of people who sent their children to the countryside-And they stayed back to support the war effort. Okay? They didn't move to the countryside with their children, they could have.

    28. SB

      Hmm.

    29. SS

      They sent their ... Just think about the insanity of that right now, that parents sent their children to the country to be safe, to be raised by another family, with the full expectation that they would, that they may never see their kids again because they might die in the blitz. Right? Like, that is incomprehensible to a modern day, and yet that made total sense that, "We stayed back to support the war effort and to be a part of it, and we sent the kids to the country." In the United States, more people died by suicide who didn't get called to action. The shame of not being called to serve was more overwhelming than the call to service. There were more suicides in the United States from people who didn't get called to serve.

    30. SB

      What does this say about the, the Gen Z, the millennial now, that's trying to decide

  14. 49:44 – 52:13

    What direction should young people be directing their life towards

    1. SB

      which direction to take their life in. But, you know, all the ... It says, you know, go be a lawyer is the clear incentive 'cause I'll get paid more or my, you know, people will be more p- proud of me on Instagram. If you're saying that service and ... It also sounds like int- intertwined within there a little bit of, like, challenge is so central to being happy. How does, like, the young person decide, like, make, build their life roadmap? What do they, what do they need to be adding to that roadmap? I've got this kid in my head that is currently behind a video game screen, he's spending all his time on the internet watching, um, certain male influencers that are telling him to be individualistic. He doesn't have a romantic relationship in the world, doesn't have any friends. He's not really leaving the house much, not going to the gym at all. Often refer to these individuals as, like, being incels-

    2. SS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    3. SB

      ... on the internet.

    4. SS

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      And the rise in that type of individual, according to a lot of people I've spoken to, is, is rising because of the nature of the world and disconnection and lack of friendship and all these things.

    6. SS

      Yeah.

    7. SB

      You know, what do you say to that person-

    8. SS

      Well-

    9. SB

      ... who's probably a guy, looking at the statistics?

    10. SS

      Well, and you, and you've talked to, you've talked to s- um, Scott Galloway.

    11. SB

      Yeah.

    12. SS

      You know, he's, he talks a lot about this. You know, um, and I don't think we talk enough about this as it relates to extremism and terrorism and things like that. You know, where you take a 24, 25, 26, 27-year-old, uh, incel virgin with no social life, there's a lot of pent-up frustration there. And that comes out in all kinds of screwed up ways, usually anger, usually victimization.

    13. SB

      Addictions.

    14. SS

      Addictions, you know, vengeful behavior, you know, antisocial behavior. Um, um, and if you look at, you know, even just in the ... And this, this is not a current statistic, this is decades and decades and decades. But you look at sort of the rise of, uh, ex- religious extremism in the Middle East. You know, you take a shame-based society where you're 24, 25, 26 years old, you're living at home, you're a virgin, um, the only way you can leave the house is if you, like, get a job and if you get a ... You won't get a girlfriend and i.e. a wife, i.e. have sex, until you get a job and move out of the house. And so there's, there's the ... And, and, and you're in a su- a shame-based society, like, the, the pressures are extreme and the anger is extreme. Um, so I think, yeah, I think this idea of not knowing how to make friends and finding online community of people who are f- you know, where we all support each other's victimhood, is, is incendiary.

    15. SB

      I could never imagine Simon Sinek in one of your books telling people-

  15. 52:13 – 54:19

    Andrew Tate's approach validating young people

    1. SB

    2. SS

      That they were losers?

    3. SB

      ... that they were losers and that they suck.

    4. SS

      Oh, yeah, I'd never do that.

    5. SB

      But when I look at Andrew Tate's approach, in his videos, multiple videos and tweets, he really mocks the people that he's speaking to. He says, "Your life sucks, you're an absolute loser," and then he tries to offer them a roadmap.

    6. SS

      Yeah.

    7. SB

      And it seems to work.

    8. SS

      Yeah, of course it works.

    9. SB

      Why?

    10. SS

      'Cause you're validating their feelings of victimhood, you're affirming it, and then offering them a way out. Um, because if you simply say, "Everyone can be a winner," like, and I don't feel like a winner, you're not talking to me. But if I say, "You've been forgotten," like, look, we, we, we do it in work all the time. It's like, "The corporation doesn't care about you. The corporation prioritizes profits over you." You're like, "Yeah!" Like, "You're disposable." "Yeah!" It's kind of a rhetorical clickbait, right? Because what you're doing is you're validating someone's feelings so you make them feel not alone in their loneliness and victimhood, and then you offer them ... But you're not just berating them, you're offering them a validation and then a, and a, and a way out of that feeling. Um, and it's not wrong, it's, it's too much. Like, it's totally fine for you and I to say, "Look, if, if you feel like your career isn't going anywhere, and yet you have ideas that you think of how you can do it better, maybe, maybe an entrepreneur life is for you." Like, we're, we're saying similar things.

    11. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SS

      The difference is, is we're not berating people. Right? But we, we definitely want people to feel seen, right? Um, I just think, you know, when you play in the extremes, you're playing in the extremes, and so you're gonna get extreme behaviors, extreme reactions. You know, you, you could do the same thing to the same people without riling them up because emotions are a powerful thing, right? And so you're playing with the delta. "I'm gonna push you down even harder, you know, and then I'm gonna show you that I can lift you even higher. And I must, you know ... That must make me the savior 'cause the delta's so much bigger."

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SS

      You know?

    15. SB

      If someone is listening now and they are, they have no friends and they're lonely.

  16. 54:19 – 58:32

    Are friendships the same as relationships?

    1. SB

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      And they're also ... And there's someone else that's listening and they are single, romantically single.

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      The first step to solving those two conundrums, finding a friend and finding a romantic partner, in terms of where I go, like the physical location that I go to in a modern world where digitalization is just, you know, social networking exists and Tinder exists-What is that place, the location? 'Cause I have so many conversations with people in my life that are struggling on both fronts, to find a friend and to find a partner, where they're saying, "Oh, I just hate dating apps." And then, um, we even now have friendship dating apps. I'm wondering where the location is these days. Like, you know, once upon a time it would be in the village, it would be maybe at church, it would be at, you know, somewhere in person. But with the declining skills of building friendships or romantic relationships, it feels like both groups are struggling. And I've got a particular friend of mine that I don't know what to say to her about this subject, 'cause she's-

    6. SS

      Finding-

    7. SB

      ... desperate to find someone.

    8. SS

      Finding a partner is as difficult as finding a friend, um, and it's different for introverts and extroverts, right?

    9. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SS

      So like me, take me for example, I am absolutely socially inept in social places, parties, bars, clubs, networking events. I am absolutely uncomfortable and inept. I stand in a corner by myself.

    11. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SS

      And the funny thing about my career, it's actually been helpful that some people recognize me 'cause they'll come up to me and do all the talking, which is like a relief, right? My, my, um, one of my best friends makes fun of me 'cause she says, like, when we go to like a, when we go to a party, like when we go to like a par- a party at someone's house or something and there's like 100 people or whatever there is, 50 people, that all these conversations are happening that, you know, these like little pockets of conversations, and I don't know how to int- inject myself into a convers- I don't know how to like saunter up without feeling and looking really uncomfortable and weird and like ruining the relation- li- ruining whatever dynamic exists. And so she makes fun of me because I'll just stand by myself in the middle of the room with my drink, perfectly comfortable, but like when she stands in the corner and looks around, like she goes to like get something, she'll see all these little conversations and one person standing by themselves (laughs) with their drink, and it's me. So I'm useless in social places. It's the introvert in me. But in unsocial places, I'm more relaxed. So like, put me in a museum, and I'm looking at a piece of art and somebody next to me is looking at a piece of art, and I actually have no problem saying, "You like it?" And it, I'm not trying to make a friend, I'm, but I do like making a connection and sometimes I talk for them for 30 seconds about the piece, and it's happened a couple times where we just kept talking, and then you end up having a cup of coffee and you ended up making a friend. Like that's happened to me.

    13. SB

      Is that because of the shared interest? You fundamentally know that you, you

    14. NA

      Yeah.

    15. SS

      I think there's a shared interest. I also think, and this is a weird thing, I actually think it's easier to make a connection when you're standing next to somebody than when you're standing across from somebody. So like in social situations like bars, clubs, networking events, you, you face each other, which I find adversarial and tense and you have to gauge the right amount of social distance, you know, it's 18 inches is actually the right amount. (laughs) You know, anything less than that is like too close, anything that then too far is weird, you know? But I find standing next to somebody is easier. If you, like going for a walk with somebody or strolling with somebody or standing next to somebody in a museum, standing next to somebody in a buffet line, you can actually get really close without it being uncomfortable. So any place where I can stand next to somebody I find it less... And, and being quiet is easier when you're next to somebody. Like when you go for a walk with somebody if you're standing next to somebody you can say a few words and then you can go completely quiet and that's not awkward. When you're facing somebody and you go completely quiet, it's just flat out uncomfortable.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. SS

      So the way I define, you know, social versus, um, like social environments versus non-traditional social environments is am I standing next to someone or standing across from someone?

    18. SB

      What's something that you're, um, struggling with? And when I ask that question I'm, I'm

  17. 58:32 – 1:13:10

    Having our priorities wrong

    1. SB

      talking about... Well, I feel like every time I've met you but also every time we've met, we've both been at crossroads, and those crossroads are professional crossroads, personal crossroads, et cetera. Um, I'm at so many crossroads in my life. I think that's just-

    2. SS

      So where, what? Tell me.

    3. SB

      So many crossroads. So trying to understand, get a clearer idea on what my North Star is professionally and therefore what I should be prioritizing. And this really relates to like, it's not even professionally, it's just in life. It's like, um, had a lot of thoughts about... I'f- I'f- I've worried for a long time that the way I'm living my life is going to turn out to be, um, my priorities were wrong and that I allocated my, my time when I was young that I had to wor- the wrong set of priorities. And those priorities that I allocated towards were like work and material success and all those things and that. You know, I had, there's a story, you've probably heard it before about the fisherman who was down by the... He had a little boat and he went out to sea every day and he went out and caught two fish and came back by lunchtime. He sold one fish to pay for the boat, the petrol, and the servicing, and he so- he gave the other fish to his family to feed his family, and then th- in the evenings and afternoons he spent the time at the beach relaxing with his family. And like a guy comes past in a Mercedes and is like, "Listen, I've got an idea for you. What we're gonna do is we're gonna keep you out on the boat all day. You're gonna catch four fish. We'll ca- with the extra two fish we'll get other boats, we'll employ people, we'll increase the flet- fleet, we'll cat- we'll catch loads more fish with all these new boats we have. Then we'll take the company public, we'll sell it." And then the fisherman's like, "And then what?" And he goes, "And then you can-"

    4. SS

      Spend the beach. (laughs)

    5. SB

      "... spend the day with your family on the beach." (laughs)

    6. NA

      (laughs)

    7. SS

      (laughs)

    8. SB

      And I kind of look at how I've played my life and I'm worrying that's how I'm playing my life a little bit. Um, there's ob- obviously all, all these other things, like I'm in the phase season of life where I'm thinking about fatherhood and becoming a dad and-

    9. SS

      How old are you now?

    10. SB

      31. So I'm right at th- that age and my partner's 31. So, um, that's a pr- you know, a, a crossroad I'm at, and, uh-

    11. SS

      So what are you- what- so what are you gonna do about it?

    12. SB

      I don't know.

    13. SS

      Well, what are you thinking about?

    14. SB

      I'm- I think I'm collecting evidence to form a perspective.

    15. SS

      That's bullshit.

    16. SB

      (laughs)

    17. SS

      You have a perspective. You don't need evidence. You have all the evi- you talk to, you do this podcast every day of your life.

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. SS

      You talk, you do no, none of the talking on your podcast, you do all of the listening.

    20. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. SS

      I'm onto you.

    22. SB

      (laughs)

    23. NA

      (laughs)

    24. SS

      And-

    25. SB

      Wanna go to an, uh, ad break now? (laughs)

    26. NA

      (laughs)

    27. SS

      Uh, so that's nonsense. You have an opinion, you have a perspective. I'd like to know what that perspective is. Because you're at a crossroads where you said yourself, "I'm questioning the priorities I made."

    28. SB

      Yeah.

    29. SS

      So that means you have a point of view.

    30. SB

      And I'm worrying that I'm bullshitting myself about why I'm working.

  18. 1:13:10 – 1:17:56

    What is Simon struggling with

    1. SS

      and writing a book is (laughs) always...

    2. SB

      Personal conundrums.

    3. SS

      Um... I'm actually in a really good place right now. Um, you know, I think we've talked about this. Like, my big struggle is, um, I've taken a huge break, a- a big step back from public speaking, and it was so much of my life for so long that, to some degree, like, I'm trying to reconfigure what I wanna do with my life. You know? I feel like I just sort of left university, and I'm like, "Okay, now what do I do?" Um, so I'm, I'm on a journey, but I'm, I like it. Um...

    4. SB

      You left a lot of money off the table, many, many, many mil- millions, by making that decision.

    5. SS

      Sure. So what? I don't... That's not my calculation. I'm the person who, I'm okay making less and lying on the beach. Like, I don't have... You know, I want a comfortable life, like anybody wants a comfortable life. But I don't need to be the biggest, richest, most powerful. I don't have that in me, you know? I wanna be really happy, and I want my friends to love me, and I wanna love my friends. And, um, I don't care. Like, my, my tombstone won't have my bank balance on it.

Episode duration: 2:02:04

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