The Diary of a CEOSimon Sinek: The Number One Reason Why You’re Not Succeeding | E145
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,098 words- 0:00 – 1:09
Intro
- SSSimon Sinek
We don't teach leaders how to have uncomfortable conversations. We don't teach students how to have uncomfortable conversations. You tell me which is gonna be more valuable for the rest of your life: how to have a difficult conversation or trigonometry? Described as a visionary thinker with a rare intellect... Multiple time bestselling author...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Simon Sinek.
- SSSimon Sinek
Every single one of us knows what we do, some of us know how we do it, but very, very few of us can clearly articulate why we do what we do. And I think one of the reasons most of us don't know who we are is because we're making decisions that are inconsistent with that true cause, with that why. There's a great irony in, in all of this. I had what a lot of people would, we considered a good life, and yet didn't wanna wake up and go to work anymore.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- SSSimon Sinek
I... We cannot do this thing called career or life alone. We're just not that smart, we're not that strong. We're just not that good. For anyone who wants to be a better version of themselves, purpose comes from... It's one of the best podcasts I've ever done.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO, USA Edition. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep
- 1:09 – 11:23
Drifting from your ‘why’
- SBSteven Bartlett
this to yourself. Simon, my introduction to you was this book, Start with Why, and it hung on the walls of some of my offices around the world for a long time. And then my employees would come in after reading the book and evangelize about it, and it would come up in meetings and in discussions and in creative brainstorms, et cetera, over and over and over again. The question I wanted to ask you was, was there a point in your life where you'd felt like you drifted so far from your why that you realized the importance of it for the first time?
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, the simple answer is yes. Um, it was that drifting that set me on the path to find it in the first place, to f- to, to even articulate that idea. I had what a lot of people would, we considered sort of a good life. I was living the proverbial American dream. You know, I quit my job to start my own business. The business was doing okay. Made an okay living, had great clients, did good work, and yet I'd lost my passion for that and d- didn't wanna wake up and go to, go to work anymore, which was embarrassing because superficially everything was just fine. I was pretending that I was happier, more in control, and more successful than I was or felt, um, which is, quite frankly, pretty draining and pretty dark. And it wasn't until a very, very close friend of mine came to me and said, "Something's wrong," she was the first one to notice something, and I came clean and I sort of let it all out. And, uh, it was that catharsis that sort of lifted this heavy weight off my shoulders. I was no longer alone. It was no longer a secret. Um, and all of the energy that was previously going into lying, hiding, and faking now went into finding a solution. There was a confluence of events. It's not, you know, all of these histories are perfectly neat and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... clean, and that's not really how it is or was.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
But to compress it and may- and oversimplify it, I made this discovery based on the biology of human decision making that every single one of us knows what we do, some of us know how we do it, but very, very few of us can clearly articulate why we do what we do! And I realized that was what I was missing. So to answer your, your question, yes, 100%, the realization of the why was my loss of it. And I realized that I knew what I did and I was good at it and I knew how I was different or special or stood out from the crowd, and that was my differentiating value proposition and I was articulate about it, but I couldn't tell you why I was waking out of bed every day to do it. You know? And I would give some nonsense entrepreneur answer, "'Cause I wanna be my own boss." I mean, like, yeah, sure, but that's not a reason to get out of bed every day.
- SBSteven Bartlett
This got me thinking a lot about the guests that I have sit here and also my own story where-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... sometimes I, I think people's why or the thing that's been driving them is in fact some kind of trauma or insecurity. I th- 'cause you sit here with people and their, whethe- whe- whether it's Israel Adesanya, the UFC champion, who's c- the current maybe world's best UFC fighter, he was battered and bullied as a kid, being the only Black kid in his school in New Zealand. And so it's no coincidence that he strived to be this fighter. And in fact, when he won the UFC title, the next day he was in- he was depressed-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and he went to therapy. That's made me question whether, like, our whys can sometimes be trauma or insecurity-driven as opposed to being intentional and I don't know...
- SSSimon Sinek
So a why is fully formed by the time we're in our mid to late teens. The youngest person I've done a why discovery for was 16, and it worked. The process worked. Um, and what I've learned from just doing hundreds of these over the years is that a why is always positive. It's always striving for something. So, like, we're not inspired against something, we're not inspired to stop something, we're inspired to build something or create something or advance something. Um, though it may have been born out of trauma, y- there's usually a silver lining that gives us that cause, especially trauma that happens in the middle of our lives. You know, September 11th is often looked to as, you know, people found purpose. You know, we are who we are. Like I said, we're fully formed by the experiences we have when we're young, you know, at a pretty young age, and now the opportunity life presents us is to make decisions that either keeps us in balance with who we really are or not. And I think one of the reasons most of us feel discomfort or don't feel ourselves or don't know who we are is because we're making decisions that are inconsistent with that true cause, with that why. So you raise the case of, um, individual athletes who become a- champions and then suffer depression, it's a...... fairly common story. You hear this from Olympians. You know, Michael Phelps becomes the most medaled, you know, uh, Olympian of all time, immediately suffers depression. Andre Agassi becomes the most storied, you know, tennis player of all time, immediately becomes depressed. And what I've learned from talking to some of these, um, these particularly athletes, but I think it happens in the business world as well, which is from a very young age, they set themselves a goal that, in my words, would be a very selfish goal, "I want to be the best at X." The best tennis player, the best golfer, the best whatever. And, you know, the way Olympians put it, which I get a kick out of is, "I wanna win the Olympics." I'm like, "Well, no one wins the Olympics." Like, you can be a winner in your sport, you know, but that's an aside. (laughs) But... And, and their entire lives from pretty young ages, every decision they're making is to help them advance this finite goal. And all of their relationships are, "Can you help me achieve my goal?" Right? "And if you can no longer help me achieve my goal, I don't need you anymore as a coach or even a friend." And there's huge sacrifices, missing of birthdays, missing of Christmases, you know, missing of m- major life, uh, events because I have to practice so I can achieve my goal. And when they get interviewed on the news, you know, at the Olympics or whatever, you know, "Why do you do it?" They all say, "Well, I'm doing it to inspire the little kids," which is complete bullshit. You know, if you look at all of their, uh, vision boards from when they were younger, of pictures of podiums and medals and money and Lamborghinis, not a single little child on there of the people you're doing it for. It's, it's just a Lucky Strike extra. I mean, absolutely you do inspire children, but that's not the reason you did it. You just got that, you know, like I said, it's sort of a... It's a twofer. And, and then when they achieve or don't achieve this thing and then can no longer compete for it, um, they've set their entire path and all their relationships on this one, these finite selfish goals. And so when it's complete, they realize they don't really have a lot of friends around them. They don't really have a lot of close relationships. They don't really even have a sense of purpose because they've been spent the past 20 years or so with one purpose, which was this finite goal, which now has run out. And so they're very purposeless. And I see this in Broadway performers who set their whole life to be on the West End or be on Broadway, you know, every class, every tap dancing class, every singing class. They make it, they get there, and then depression or at least malaise. Or senior executives, same thing, "If I just..." Or, "If I just make a million dollars, you know, if I just become a millionaire, then I'll feel." And, uh, and the problem with all of those things is, as I said before, they are selfish. Uh, it is your goal for your reasons, which, um, is not fulfilling for any social animal, for any human being. You know, our sense of joy and fulfillment and love and purpose comes from our ability to serve another human being. Have a child, tell me how your life changes. Fall in love, tell me how your life changes. You know, think about all the stupid things, irrational things we've done for love. We get on planes and travel around the world just to say, "I love you." You know, we do ridiculous things, and it all feels worth it. And the sacrifices we make for a child all feel worth it. But these are no longer for us, and these things will live on beyond our own lives. They are not finite. They are infinite. And there's nothing wrong with personal achievement. There's nothing wrong with setting goals, but it has to be in the context of something even bigger. In general, team sports don't suffer this because you had to do it together, you know? It's me- usually individual athletes who suffer this more often. Uh, and so there, there is a, the, there's one of the, the athletes I would point to is a, a guy by the name of Curtis Martin. Curtis is a Hall of Fame NFL footballer. Um, and he only started playing football basically to stay out of trouble. He did it as a favor to his mom just so he wouldn't get in t- He grew up in a really bad neighborhood in Philadelphia. And basically kept him out of trouble and turns out he was really good at it. And when he realized he was good at it, he realized that by being good at something, it will give him the power to actually give back later. Mm-hmm. And it, he made this realization, especially when he went to college on scholarship and then made it to the NFL, he realized the better he was at the sport, it wasn't about propelling his h- own career. It was about when he leaves this career, he has a platform that will be bigger than the platform he has now. And so he was driven and driven and driven, not so that he could be the best, not so that he could make the most money. In fact, he made a lot less money than a lot of other players of his rank. Not that he could, uh, be rich or famous or any of these things. He did it so that he could build his platform so that he could give back later. So when he retired from the NFL, he wasn't lost. He wasn't searching. He, he knew exactly what the next step was because being an, being an elite athlete to the highest level possible was only step one. Mm-hmm. Um, and to see one's life as a continuum rather than a, than a, than an event, um, is much healthier.
- 11:23 – 22:40
How do we create continuous goals?
- SSSimon Sinek
On that point of seeing one's life as a continuum... By the way, you completely... We call it @ing someone where you describe their situation, but you completely @ed me. You completely described my situation in terms of the place of mind I was in at 25 when I had that offer to buy my company. It was about me. Mm-hmm. It was about filling some void that I had in me from being, like, the only Black kid in an all white school and thinking that I think success and accolades would fill that void in some ways. But on that point of a continuum as a, as a way to live your life, the other moment in my life where I... Which I really struggled in in terms of goal setting and motivation was when I was trying to get in shape. And in like 2017, I said to myself, "I wanna get a six-pack for summer." That's the goal I set myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really, what I was trying to find a way to stay fit forever. But I set myself this goal of getting a six-pack in summer, that was my thing. And then every single year, my motivation would only last for like four or five months and I couldn't crack how people are continually motivated to work out. I've cracked it now. But what was wrong about that? 'Cause I've heard you speak about arbitrary goals before. What is the, the flaw of creating arbitrary goals in our lives, and how do we create goals that are more based on that idea of a continuum?
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, I, I, I'm not a huge fan of the term self-improvement, right? Um, but I do like the idea of awareness, self-awareness. You know, we all live with blind spots, we all live with missing gaps and pieces of information, which will, by the way, last for the rest of our lives. And there are some people who choose to live a life where living with those gaps is acceptable and they never fill them in, and we would say that they remain stagnant. And arguably, either mentally or physically unhealthy, or g- gaining, you know, getting unhealthier as they get older, you know? For someone, for anyone who, who wants to be a better version of themselves, a, a more aware version of themselves, you, you, we, I seek out information, and that comes in all kinds of forms, right? It can be in a relationship, um, so for example, I went and took a listening class. Well, actually I should pre- preface with, um, I was dating someone and she accused me of being a bad listener, and I was like, "You do know what I do for a living, right?" Like, I'm a really good listener, so I don't know what you're talking about, you know? And then I took this listening class, turns out I'm an absolutely brilliant listener with people who I'll never see again for the rest of my life, but amongst my friends and family, appalling. Appalling. So I had this basic skill set that I never applied with the people closest to me, and gave myself an out because, quote unquote, "I knew how to listen." Um, and so I realized I was a terrible listener. This was a blind spot, this was a gap, and having somebody love me tell me that didn't work. Didn't believe them, until, you know, this objective outsider, or at least I just took this class and came to this realization. That was brilliant. That awareness of the blind spot and the awareness of the skills that I need to be a better brother, son, boyfriend, friend, you know? I had to learn how to hold space for someone, and then practice. Um, that's awareness, and I think our health is awareness. Unfortunately, some people wait for the breakup to learn that they're bad listeners, some people wait for the heart attack to realize they're eating poorly, you know? That's awareness. You get awareness by getting a punch in the face. And I think, I think it's a responsibility for every human being, should they want to have value in the lives of others, to seek awareness in how they show up in the world and, and how the world impacts them, their mental health, their physical health, their ability to maintain relationships and nurse relationships. And you hear me, what, I mean, you'll hear me say this over again, it's a sort of, uh, sort of, it'll, it's a repeating pattern which is, for those who want to show up better in the lives of others, which is, I see being healthy as a service to others, I see being a better listener being a service, I see everything in terms of service to others. There are benefits to you as well, of course, but I- I think we've neglected for decades the f- the socialness of our- of our animal, and social media and cellphones and, and the u- and the ubiquity of those technologies have complicated our ability to be human. Um, there are others who comment on this as well, Brené Brown talks about this, where we have a young generation that has mistaken vulnerability in broadcast, right? Where you sit in your room by yourself, put your phone on record, and make a video of yourself crying because of the loss of a relationship, and then posting that on Instagram or Snapchat or YouTube or TikTok or whatever your media of choice is, and the hashtag is just being vulnerable, right? And there's nothing vulnerable about that. You were by yourself broadcasting to the world, live or video, it doesn't matter. Do that exact same thing with the person you hurt. That is way more difficult. Don't leave a voice memo saying, "Hey, I'm really sorry. Just taking accountability." Call them or go visit them and look them in the eye and say that exact same sentence that you just left a voice memo for. That's vulnerability. That's really hard and requires practice and we avoid it because it's difficult. We avoid it because it's uncomfortable. We choose broadcast not because it's better, it's 'cause it's easier, and then mistake the two. And so the reason to learn to be vulnerable is not for ourselves, it's for our service to others, and I talk about this all the time which we've confused these things, and once again, going back to what we were talking about before, we've weirdly taken these very pro-social activities and made them selfish. Like, go us. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, my, my biggest pet... I'll give you my biggest pet peeve, and I've talked about this one before but it drives me nuts. I was at this me- I was in this meeting once and there was a, a woman next to me who was this big-timey yoga instructor apparently, and the entire meeting, it was, it was a big group of us, she was on her phone under the, under the desk, under the table, and I sort of sneaked over a look and it's not like she was like, there was a family member in hospital and she wanted to just, you know, stay in touch. She was on social media, I could see, right? And at one point the conversation at the table turned to being present, and she popped up her head and said, "That's why I love yoga, 'cause it helps me be present."... of which I'm thinking, "You're an idiot."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? And I started to realize, we've confused things here. Which is, w- we don't get to decide when we're present. We get to practice being present. But you actually are not present until someone else says you are. You know? Y- you don't get to sit with a friend and be like, "I feel present," if they don't feel it. That's like me saying, "I'm a great listener," except I'm not. Right? I don't get to self-assign these accolades, especially when they're social. They can only be assigned by another. And so, for anyone who's ever practiced meditation, there are absolutely benefits to us, without a doubt, and it is im- those are important mental and physical health benefits of meditation and mindfulness, and we should practice those, for sure. But there's also that, what I think is the primary reason, some would consider secondary reason, which is, if you practice m- meditation, for example, you learn to focus on one thing. Your mantra, a sound, whatever it is. You learn to, your breath. You learn to, it's, you don't, nobody, you don't think of nothing, you think of one thing. Focus on one thing, right? And if something interrupts that thing, you have a thought, "Did I leave the washing machine on?" You know? You label it a thought, and you push it out of your head, and you say, "I'll deal with it later." And that's the whole, the whole idea, is total focus and the ability to put your thoughts out of your head to stay focused on this one thing. Now think about when you're sitting listening with a friend who's going through a hard time. Are you listening, or are you waiting for your turn to speak? Right? The whole meditation practice that you've been doing is now valuable in this moment, where you are focused entirely on what they're saying to you. Every distraction, every screech of a car tire outside, everybody who's talking around you, you don't hear any of it. You only hear what they're saying to you, are entirely focused on what they're saying to you. And when you have your own thoughts of advice you'd like to give, or things you wanna tell them, "Oh my God, me too, that happened to me as well," right? You say, "Nope, that's not important in this moment," and you put it out of your head and deal with it later. And at the end of that conversation, your friend will say, "Thank you, I feel heard," or, "Thank you for being there for me," or, "Thank you for holding space for me," or, "Thank you for listening." And those are all, uh, uh, indications that, congratulations, you've been present for another. And I think what gives our lives purpose is not to wake up every morning to learn meditation so that we can be present for ourselves, though that is valuable. What gives our lives purpose is to do these things for another. There's nothing wrong with doing things and enjoying the benefit of those things yourself, by all means, but the sense of, the deep-feeling sense of purpose and meaning to one's life or to one's work only comes when those things are for another. And in my view, primarily for another. Where our benefit is secondary. Y- you can't have equal, there's no such thing as equal, because at one point, one of those things will have to be sacrificed for the other. And do you sacrifice your spouse's love so that you can stay in love? Or do you sacrifice your comfort? Do you sacrifices your s- your girlfriend, boyfriend, spouse's comfort f- so that you can be better, or do you sacrifice your comfort so they can feel better? That's an obvious, it's obvious. Well, it's the same here. It's the same analogy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Which is, I choose to sacrifice my c- my happiness, my joy, my comfort, my Lamborghini, in this moment, not forever, but in this moment, for you. For you, my employee, for you, my friend. You know? Um, I will delay so that you can have. And that's where the joy and love of business relationships, friendships, come from, you know? There's a great irony in, in all of this. Which is, to sacrifice for another really is the most beautiful thing we can ever do. I mean, that's kinda what love is. It's sacrificing for another. Um, and all of these things, whether it's y- m- learning to be a better communicator, m- learning mindfulness and meditation, being in shape, if you can translate those things in for another, it, all of those things start to have a, a higher purpose.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In the case of health, doing it for another, you're saying that it would be so that I can be here longer for my family, would be a much more joyful... If I had children, for example.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure. As long as it's real.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It can't be generic.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
It can't, you just can't, you can't just put it out there just so it's, fills the, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... mad libs and you fill the gap.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? It's gotta, it, you gotta actually feel it, that that actually is the purpose.
- 22:40 – 25:33
How do you find purpose in life?
- SSSimon Sinek
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'll give you one, then. So, part of, I do think about this, and I thought about this last night when I was in the gym, was, in part I think I work out because I want to be healthy and in shape for my, for my girlfriend. Like, I want to be, I want our relationship to be good, I want us to be able to be active together, I want her to be attracted by me when I'm naked. (laughs) You know? Like... And I, I had a debate with my team as to, like, whether that's a noble reason to work out, and should we have a, feel an obligation or whatever to be in shape for our, our other half.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think to be healthy for our other half, for sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right. But you think the aesthetic stuff is a bit...
- SSSimon Sinek
I think it's fine.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, I think the aesthetic stuff is about confidence, right? Which is, I'm sure she'll love you even if you're chubby, you know? I'm sure she'll love you even if you don't have a six-pack. You know? But if it makes you feel confident, then... It's like people who have nose jobs, you know? Like somebody says, "You can't have a nose job. Why are you..." Well, if it makes them feel better about themselves, then how can we argue with it? Like if they, if they went from being really, really insecure and hiding their faces, or had bad teeth and they never wanted to smile, to fixing their teeth and now they smile all the time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, why, why should we tell them they can't? Now, of course there's a line. Getting addicted to plastic surgery is something different, and there is a line. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
But, you know, getting your teeth done or getting a nose job to make yourself feel better is, it's fine if it builds your confidence. So if it builds your confidence, and then, and it's a, and you're doing it in a healthy way-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know, then, you know, it's like, how can somebody argue that you shouldn't be exercising because it looks good? Now, again, there is a line. There are some people who actually overdo it, where if they stop exercising and they gain a tiny bit of weight, they actually spiral.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
There, there is a line, where they're actually not-... building confidence, they're actually building insecurity.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
But some of these things don't have to be big and lofty. They can be ridiculously small. Like, so for example, for me, you know, I am very good at, um, disappointing myself. Like, I have no problem disappointing myself, right? Like, I'll wake up in the morning two hours before my alarm, and I'll say to myself, "You should work out. Like, you're up super early. You've got a busy day, and you just got an extra two hours. You could, like, use 30 minutes of that to work out. Get out of bed." I'm like, "Neh, I'll sit in bed for two hours and just, like, read the newspaper and play Wordle," you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
And two hours will go by and I won't work out. Do I have any guilt? None. I'm just like, "Ugh, you're an idiot, Simon," right? Now, if I'm meeting someone at the gym at 7:30 because we're gonna work out, I'll be there. I won't let somebody down. I'm okay letting myself down, but I won't let somebody else down. So for me, my purpose sometimes is very in the moment. Like, I'm doing this for them. It's like, you know, when I, when I would run, you know, one of the reasons I stayed in good running shape is because when I ran with my running buddy, I never wanted to ruin their run.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
If they wanted to keep a slightly higher pace, I could keep it. So, it doesn't always have to be big and lofty. Sometimes it can be in the moment.
- 25:33 – 31:29
The importance of assessment from others & nursing personal relationships
- SSSimon Sinek
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you talked about awareness there and the importance of trying to become more aware about ourselves, and one of the things that made you aware was that conversation with your partner-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... where they said you don't listen.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're a shitty listener.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Um, self-awareness, what... I don't know if that's a real thing, but self-awareness, um, seems to be the, the foundation of grow- personal growth, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, becoming aware about something in our lives. And people can read as, I always say, people can read as many books as they like, but if they're unable to read themselves, they'll never really learn a thing.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
For me, again, I, I, I wrote that a couple years ago and I had a guy in my office. He read every single b- He was actually one of the people that always came in with your books, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He read every single book I've ever seen. He knew every book, but he never changed.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and he, and there was things within him that he wasn't self-aware about that I believe were the reason why he couldn't evolve even though he was taking in so much information. How does one go about... What are the, the, the key ways we can go about increasing our sense of self-awareness so that we can grow and evolve?
- SSSimon Sinek
Such a good question. You know, it's kinda, like, people like that are a little bit like yo-yo dieters, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Is, is they, they do every diet, but they're not healthy people. I read every book, but I'm not growing. And you can't assess yourself, you know? It's like, can you... I mean, you know this from work, right? Which is at some point somebody's gonna have to give you feedback. At some point you have to give somebody else feedback. Like, self-assessment is a thing, but it's not the only thing. It's a thing. It's a data point. And I'm a huge believer in self-assessment, but you have to have that buttressed with the assessments of others, because we are blind very often. We're social animals. We cannot do this thing called career or life alone. We're just not that smart, we're not that strong, we're not that aware. We're just not that good. As social animals, we actually need each other to watch our backs and tell us what's working and what's not working. And I think for somebody who goes through life and reads those books, all the books, you know, I get, good on them, I guess, but are they asking for help? Are they asking for, uh, insight from others as opposed to just reading it and agreeing with it and thinking they're making the changes? I know my own personal journey, and I try, I do think of myself as I, I, I work hard to be self-aware and I work hard to self-evaluate, but I, I have seen in my own life my ability to truly demonstrate real awareness, um, and move further down the, the journey and path called life, as opposed to staying stagnant, came when I let others help me. You know, we, we don't build trust by offering help. We build trust by asking for it, because it's a vulnerable thing to ask for help. "Will you help me?" is a ven- very, very vulnerable statement. "Can I help you?" Not so much. An act of service, but the act of service really comes from allowing somebody else to serve you. Which it becomes this whole weird twisted circular thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's like, I, I mean, I'll give you a silly example. People who are bad at taking compliments, right? "You're so smart." "No, no, no, no, no, no." Right? We downplay it because we're embarrassed by the compliment, right? But a compliment is a gift. Somebody's paying you a gift. Now, if somebody handed you a present, you wouldn't push it back 'cause it would be rude, right? You would accept it. And whether you like it or not or whether it makes you comfortable or not, you accept it with gratitude and then you go evaluate it later. "Oh, that's an ugly sweater." You know? But you're still grateful for the thought and the gift. And a compliment's the same. And I think all of these things, the willingness to, you know, to deny someone else the joy of giving you the gift of the compliment and to deny someone else the intensity and joy of being there for someone else, again, I think is selfish. Never asking for help is selfish. Asking for help is a great act of service 'cause you allow someone else to have the joy of sacrifice, and it goes backwards and forwards. It's not one-sided. And this is where I think great relationships work, which is we take turns. And sometimes it's really difficult when both of us are in need at the same time. That gets really difficult. Good thing we have friends. So, you know, the height of COVID, um, I, I have, uh, a couple of my friends there sort of remarkable high-performing individuals, both of them. And one of them called me out of the blue and she went for a long walk. She says, "I'm doing really badly and I need to talk to you, and I don't wanna talk to my husband because he's doing really badly as well, and I fear that if I talk to him, he doesn't have the energy for me, but I know he'll wanna be there for me, which will make it worse for him."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- SSSimon Sinek
"We're both really struggling. Can... Do you have some time to talk?"... you know? And, I mean, A, the willingness to ask for help, B, the willingness to understand that asking her husband for help would make it even more difficult for him. It was just a very sophisticated and beautiful moment. And to this day, we became... A, not only did we become closer for it, but her husband and I became closer for it as well because I was there for her when he knew he couldn't be. And this is why we have friends. Like, again, we can't do this alone. Not only are we social animals, we're tribal animals. You know, it, it's more than a friend. It takes a community. Um, and I think one of the... You know, we're always talking about what we're eating, and we're talking about what we're, you know, what, you know, what supplement we're taking, or... We're always talking about those kinds of things, or what book we're reading. But we, we don't do enough talking about how we are nursing our close personal relationships, how we're taking care of those closest to us and making sure that the tribe is strong, um, the crew is taken care of. You know? Um, and I think there's a lot more work that we can do in that arena.
- 31:29 – 44:32
Practical advice to create a culture of seeking feedback from others
- SSSimon Sinek
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there practical things that you do with colleagues, partners, friends, to create that culture of seeking feedback, being open, being truly vulnerable? You know, some people say, "Oh, we'll have... We'll sit down with our diary and we'll write, we'll do this exercise." Or you might have seen in organizations where they do, like, 360-feedback things.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there, is there practical things we can do to create a culture of seeking out that feedback and creating a safe space?
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, the simple answer is of course. Um, the, there's no such thing as a, a single silver bullet; it's a combination of things. It's like, what's the one thing I can do to happy, have a happy relationship? Well, I, I kinda, I can tell you a important thing, but I can't tell you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... the important thing. So, it's the same. Um, and everybody's a little different, you know, and each culture's a little different. So, there's, there's not even a set list I can give, but there's some things that people can choose from. You know, one thing is, one of the ways we create space is how we react, right? If someone gives you feedback and you deny it, well, that's a problem. If somebody gives you hard see, see, feedback and you thank them for it, it's a very different-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... environment it creates. So, I, I, I'll, I'll give you two, uh, examples. One, a lesson, the other one, a practical example that someone can use. So, I had the opportunity to visit the Army Rangers, uh, Ranger School, in particular, and, uh, where they make, they, they make Army Rangers. And one of the, uh, troubles they had a, a bunch of years ago was, they had these folks that they called Spotlight Rangers, which was, they were really good at their job, like, they were brilliant at all the tasks that were set to them. Strong. Their, the teachers, the instructors loved them. They stood out, they were great, they were motivated. But as soon as the spotlight was turned off, when the instructor wasn't there and they were back at barracks, they were assholes. And the only person who, the only people who knew were their, were their friends and colleagues, because the spotlight was turned off. And so, the Army Rangers implemented a system of peer review in order to identify Spotlight Rangers. And then now... By the way, they started this 40 years ago, which I find incredibly advanced. Um, but to advance through Ranger School, you need to pass three tests. You need your instructor to say, "Yep, you're ready to go to the next level," you need to physically actually perform all the tasks required of you, and you need to pass your peer review. Um, and if you fail any one of those three, you don't make it to the next level.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so, that becomes a, s- a, an, an equally weighted component of advancement in the Army Rangers, which is what kind of team player are you, which I love. So, uh, we implemented a system of 360-review, um, which was sort of a bit of an amalgamation of things we'd taken from other groups and made our own, where what we, what, the way it works is, um, you take the, the group of people you have regular interaction with and you, um, fill out, uh, your top three weaknesses, or the places you believe you need to grow the most, with a specific example for each. So, top three specific weaknesses or, nor, or places you need to grow the most, and then top three specific strengths, or the places you believe, three examples of the places you believe you've grown the most. They have to be specific. Not like, "Oh, I'm a much better timekeeper now." No, that... You gotta give some specific examples. They're collated and distributed amongst the team, and then you come together as a group, and you take turns reading them. So first, you read your own weaknesses, and then the group has the opportunity to add to that list. And here's the best part: we give a little speech before the whole exercise starts that, "The people who are gonna give you this feedback really don't want to. It's really uncomfortable for them. It's gonna be, uh... They, they would just rather not do this exercise at all. But they're going to do it because they wanna see you and help you grow, and so what they're giving you is a gift, and so you have to receive it as a gift, which means you say thank you. You don't have to agree with it. If you don't agree with it, say thank you and just dismiss it. It's fine. But if it has an emotional impact, if it makes you angry or frustrated, it's probably true."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? And we go around the room, and somebody's tell, they, every, people can add to this list of these weaknesses in any way their f- they, there's no format. They can do it in any way they want. And you sit there and you look them in the eye and you genuinely say, "Thank you." You're not allowed to say a word except thank you. Then you do your strengths, and you read your threat, strengths, and anyone can add to the list. And just as you discovered you have blind spots you didn't know you have, you discover that you have strengths that you didn't know you had, that you're having a positive impact on the lives of others that you didn't know you were.... and it's a magical experience. There's usually tears at some point because it's powerful, and it's a safe environment. I wouldn't recommend an organization start there. I would recommend you build towards that because you're gonna put very senior people and very junior people in the same room, and they're gonna have very blunt conversations with each other. And it's, it's real.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? It's not a place to start, but it is a place to get to. Um, and there are variations for it. That one takes a lot of time. You know, we've, we've vary it, we varied it as where everybody's responsible for, to do it, and you can... You have two people assigned, and you can choose one or two people to join, and you just have-
- SBSteven Bartlett
A smaller-
- SSSimon Sinek
... a smaller group when you wanna do it, you know? And it's just for you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... so the others don't do it in that moment. It's- it's a little more efficient to do it that way, um, but there's no right or wrong way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I really love that idea of the promotion being contingent on not just the, your manager or your, the CEO believing that you are X, Y, and Z but getting peer-reviewed by the colleagues around you because, uh, one of the things I noticed in my company, we had... Uh, when I left, there was about 700 people. But I would have, I would hear reports about a particular team member, and the reports I would get back about their character and their conduct never matched the way they treated me.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, uh, they would always treat me-
- SSSimon Sinek
Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... amazingly, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Of course, right? And then I'd hear that they treated this person like this, and they-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... did this, and I'd go, "Really?" And they'd go, "Yeah," and I'd go, "Really?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"They a- they were always so nice to me." And o- obviously, on that basis, I would've promoted that individual and thought they were great, so that's definitely something I'll implement. What-
- 44:32 – 54:39
Long term negative impact of lying in your business
- SSSimon Sinek
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is so insidious, or what is so harmful? What is the long-term negative impact of creating that culture of lying within teams and within ourselves?
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, there's a, there's this, there's this, uh, psychological, uh, um, phenomenon, I guess, called ethical fading, uh, which can grip an organization's culture, where people within that culture become capable of making highly, highly unethical decisions, believing they were well within their own ethical frameworks. Right? So extreme examples are things like pharmaceutical companies who have a patent on an essential drug, and in order to meet or beat some financial projection, they raise the price of that essential drug 100%, 500%, 1,000%, 1,500%. Totally legal. There's nothing illegal about that. Really unethical, right? And in organizations that suffer ethical fading, it almost always, if not always, starts from the top. It's usually a leadership problem. It comes from excessive amounts of pressure to hit certain short-term goals to the point where doing it ethically becomes more and more difficult. And so what creates ethical fading is a series of things. One of those things is, um, we, we, we rationalize, right? We look for ways to distance ourselves from the impact of our decisions. We say things like, "It's what you gotta do to get ahead. It's what my boss wants. Um, everyone's doing it. It's the system. I don't have a choice." Right? Um, and th- there are ways we can disassociate our responsibility. Right? So rationalizing is a big part of it. Another part is the old slippery slope. You did it once. You did it a little bit. It worked. We raised the price 10%. Nobody even noticed. Great. Do it again. Do, do 20% this time. Try 100%. And it just keeps going and going and going and going before you have full-blown ethical fading. And, um, some of the things that... Excessive use of euphemisms. Again, we're using language to disassociate ourselves from the impact of our decisions. So for example, you know, um, we in the United States would never torture, but enhanced interrogation, that sounds very appealing. Right? Or companies would never spy on their customers, but data mining, yeah, no, we're really into that. Right? Um, we're just using different language to, to mask the insidiousness of our real decisions. Like, everybody talks about managing externalities, but we don't talk about the damage we're doing to the people and cultures, environments of the places where our offices and factories are located. Why don't you have that conversation? And so when you have enough of those things, you s- ethical fading shows up, where you now have real issues. And in the extreme, you have massive scandals. Sometimes it leads to illegal activity, but usually it's just unethical scandals. And when those things happen, management is dragged out and they talk to the newspaper or to the law, and they always say the same thing, which is, "We, we broke no laws. Everything we do is legal." No, we don't have an issue with the law. We have an issue with your ethics.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, but when you don't have... When it's not full-blown, it just becomes an incredibly uncomfortable and a horrible place to work that increases stress to the point where you'll do damage to your own health and you'll do damage to the way you treat your family. Because when you're under that kind of stress to violate your own ethics at work, um, you're gonna come home and you're gonna take it out on your, your spouse and your kids. You're gonna kick the dog. Um, you're not gonna be motivated to do much except sit in the... sit on the couch and watch TV. You know? So it has, it's had some pretty insidious, uh, impact in the lives of human beings.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was thinking of it as well in terms of romantic relationships. One little white lie becomes another little white lie, and then a couple of, you know, a year passes, and you're so unaligned and so far from your truth that you're-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... resentful that you're having to keep up with this set of lies. I mean, we t-... I've talked about it with a guest on this podcast before. One, one of the mistakes I made in my relationship at the start was, I would say yes to things that I didn't like doing.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I created this culture, and this... also this, like, expectation where my, my partner thought I loved doing-... X activity at 6:00 AM in the morning, 'cause I'd always said yes and I'd always pretended to like it. Now I have to live out that life of something I do not enjoy doing-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because I lied at the start. And the journey back is not always so easy when you've-
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I, I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... persisted.
- SSSimon Sinek
... I've made the same mistake on the other side, which is after I broke up with someone when we maintained a friendship, and I started dating somebody, or at least started dating, but I didn't wanna hurt the feelings of this person that I still care about that we broke up, you know, a couple months before. Um, and so if sh- I would avoid the conversation, but if she said, "Are you dating anybody?" I'd say, "No, not really." And it's not because I wanted to lie, it's because I don't want to hurt her. Like, the intention, of course, is positive. But what I learned later is all of those little lies meant that sh- she was holding out hope that wasn't there. And by the way, I'm s- it's been done to me as well. I'm holding out hope that's not there because someone didn't wanna hurt my feelings, and I would rather just have the uncomfortable conversation, "Are you dating somebody? You are." Okay, well that hurts, but I can heal. I can move on. And, you know, again, this young generation, because of all the reasons we've talked about and more, seems to exhibit the traits of being very conflict avoidant, very uncomfortable with uncomfortable. Um, that has some r- impact that are s- sometimes funny, quote unquote, but always l- tend to make somebody feel more lonely. So for example, and I've seen this happen, I've heard about these stories (laughs) so many times, a, a young employee who may feel they're in line for a raise, but is so uncomfortable to go to their boss and ask for a raise that they just quit, that they would rather quit than have an uncomfortable conversation. And then sometimes it is followed by a, an angry email that says, "I'm undervalued. You don't appreciate me. You underpay me," you know? W- And, and I've, I've, I've heard it happen so many times where the leadership is like, "Wh- what? We would've happily s- A like, I'm sorry, we, we were either planning on giving you a raise, we'd happily give you a raise," you know? And it's really uncomfortable to walk in your boss's office and be like, "Hey, I'm working really hard. Can I have a raise please?" Now, the time you do get to quit is when you've had this conversation four, five, six times and you've seen nothing and had no feedback and had no impact. Then absolutely you quit, and absolutely you say, "You undervalue me. You underappreciate me. We've under- underappreciate me. We've had this conversation five or six times." Then it's their fault-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... because they had all the information. But again, it's really funny how many young kids are, would, were, they f- they would rather quit than have a difficult conversation, or they'd rather break up than have a diff- difficult conversation. Or worse, they'd rather ghost someone than break up with them-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
... because it's really uncomfortable to have a fight and a breakup and call each other names. It's much easier to just turn off all the social media, k- un- unfollow everywhere. I know we've been dating for six months, but I'm just gonna now ignore every text, ignore all your calls. And think about it from the, we talk about service. Think about the service or disservice we do the other person. From their e- their point of view, it's like you got in a car accident. It's like you were just killed. It's like you just disappeared off the planet. That is trauma, because you're uncomfortable to have an uncomfortable conversation. You would do that to so an- another person? So service goes both ways, which is, I will make myself uncomfortable and have a difficult conversation even if I bumble it and screw it up and it ends up being a screaming match, because that is a better option than traumatizing a person where they have to believe that I've, first of all, that I've died because they can't get a hold of me in the panic. And then when they realize I'm alive because they see me on Instagram, that now I've destroyed their self-confidence. How dare somebody do that to another human being because you're just a little uncomfortable of having an uncomfortable conversation? Where we can help is we can teach people how to have uncomfortable conversations. That is a skillset. We don't teach leaders how to have uncomfortable conversations. We don't teach students how to have uncomfortable c- conversations. We don't teach... You know, we can teach these things all over the place, and I think it's, I think it's a big gaping hole in curriculum. We teach, you know, maths and we teach English, but we don't teach social interaction. We don't teach listening. We don't ch- we don't teach how to have uncomfortable conversations. We don't teach how to give and receive feedback, you know? Now, you tell me which is gonna be more valuable for the rest of your life, how to have a difficult conversation or trigonometry?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah, um.
- SSSimon Sinek
And shouldn't we be, you know, isn't this, shouldn't we be preparing people for life?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm. Mm. (page turns) I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. As the seasons have begun to change, so has my diet. And, um, right now, I'm just gonna be completely honest with you, I'm starting to think a lot about slimming down a little bit, because over the last couple of, probably the last four or five months, my diet has been pretty bad, um, and it's started to show a little bit. Really over the last two months. I go to the gym about 80% of the time, so I track it with 10 of my friends in a WhatsApp group in this tracker online that we all use together. We call it Fitness Blockchain. And I'm currently at 81%, um, so 81% of the days I've done a workout in the last 150 days, right? So I'm going to the gym about six times a week. That's been a little bit impacted by the Diary of a CEO Live Tour, but I'm trying to stick to it. And so one of the things I'm doing now to reduce my calorie intake and trying to get back to being nutritionally complete in all I eat is I'm having the Huel protein shake. Thank you, Huel, for making a product that I actually like. The salted caramel is my favorite. I've got the banana one here, which is the one my girlfriend likes, but for me salted caramel is the one.On
- 54:39 – 59:59
How to make the young generation thrive and stay motivated
- SBSteven Bartlett
that point of that new generation in the workplace and how they're, they're exhibiting traits of being a little bit more cowardly in terms of having those difficult conversations, you made a video about Millennials in the workplace that did-
- SSSimon Sinek
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... probably hundreds of millions of views.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I remember seeing it on Facebook maybe five years ago, and it ju- I think it had 50 million views on that one video, but across YouTube, it's got tens of millions of views on many, many different videos.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, but I'm thinking now about that new generation that you've described, that younger generation, that Gen Z generation that are emerging into the, like, post-COVID world.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is the workplace for them? What do, how do I, as a leader, make sure that if I'm hiring Gen Z, and I've got a couple even in this room that work in my company, what have we got to know about them and do to make sure that they thrive, stay motivated-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and achieve their goals?
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, this is my own bias. I don't like the conversation of strengths and weaknesses. Um, you know, it's the famous question, you know, in an interview, "What's your biggest weakness?" "Well, I'm a perfectionist." You know? Uh, I don't like the conversations of strengths and weaknesses because, um, strengths often have liability, "I'm really confident," okay, in the wrong context, you're arrogant, right? But weaknesses also have silver linings. So for me, I'm chronically disorganized. I'm terrible, right? Every system, app, I've tr- that works for like a week, and then I'm back to being disorganized. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Now, for years, I used to beat myself up for it and say, "It's a bad thing. It's a, it's a terrible weakness," but the reality is it's context. So I was at this, as a young entrepreneur, I was at this networking event, and I met this guy who was, like, really impressed with what I had to say, with my pitch, and he's like, "Simon, we have to do work together. Here's my business card. Call me. Let's do this." And I lost the business card basically as soon as he gave it to me. So anybody who was organized would be sending a text from the taxi or at least sending an email the next day. Not Yahoo over here. I lost the business card. There was no way for me to find out what this important piece of business would have led to 'cause I lost the card. Two weeks later, I found the business card at the bottom of a briefcase. So I emailed him and said, "Hey, do you remember we met two weeks ago? You know, I'd love to reconnect and see if we can work together still." He wanted to work with me more because he thought I was busy. So strength or weakness? The answer is it depends. Now, in general, yes, it is a weakness, it's a liability, and it causes me great stress, but not always is the point. And so yes, it's important for us to understand our characteristics that we exhibit, of which some of them in the cont- in certain contexts are huge strengths, and some of the, the exact same characteristics in the wrong context are huge weaknesses, right? So it's very d- it's, we have to be very careful when we label people or generations as being strong or weak, because the answer is it depends. Okay, so that's the preface. When we talk about this young generation, gen- the, uh, the Gen Z generation, they exhibit many of the same characteristics as the previous generation, but they're quite different in the sense that they're very activist, right? So for example, in the 1950s and '60s, people hated their jobs back then too. They just went to work every day and just suffered in silence, you know? By the time you get to the '80s and '90s, people hated their jobs, but then they'd at least start talking around, about it around the office saying, "You know, this, this job kinda sucks a little bit," you know? And then by the time you get sort of the 2000s, people start speaking up to their bosses saying, "I think we should make it better to work here," you know? And now you're in this young generation, and they're just like, they're, like, standing up and quitting and, like, and I love it, right? And, and, and they organize. They're much more... You know, the previous generation would, like, hashtag tweet my discontent as I'm sitting in my Uber on my way to brunch, you know, but this young generation gets out and organizes and comes together. Plus or minus. It depends. Sometimes it's a huge strength, the fact that they have that kind of energy, but sometimes, as we've talked about as well, they also have the energy to quit instead of having an uncomfortable conversation. So strength or weakness? It depends. And so I think the way we have to approach all of these things is with empathy, which is instead of, uh, uh, deciding if it's a strength or weakness, to try and understand where it comes from, 'cause I can say, "This generation is irresponsible and will quit before they ask for a, a, a raise," or I can say, "Why is it that they're quitting before they get a, th- when they just need a raise?" What's mis- what's, what's, what happened between A and B in that thought, in those two actions, you know? And I'm like, "Oh, they just missed the skill set. Oh, I can totally figure that one out. That one's an easy fix." So I'm not labeling a whole person or a whole generation. I'm ra- rather recognizing that there is gaps of, uh, skills, which we all have. So when you ask me about any of the generations, and they all have strengths and they all have liabilities, and depending on the timeframe and the context, someti- sometimes those strengths also become old-fashioned, no longer necessary. You know, they can still cause frustration. They can still cause confusion. You know, we're still looking through them, at our own, through our own prisms of our own generation. I've definitely caught myself doing it, you know? I do do it, "My goodness, we never did that when we were kids." You know, "When I was their age..." I'm actually saying that now. But, um, I think the, the, the trial, the, the, the, the test is the practice of empathy, which is another skill that we can
- 59:59 – 1:12:06
Workplace flexibility
- SSSimon Sinek
teach that's missing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How is this, the, the COVID experiment on the workforce and the workplace? So how do, like, business leaders or business owners need to adjust in order to make sure we don't lose people and become an uncompelling, unattractive place to work in this post-COVID era? And also, on the point, you talked about this earlier about the importance of, like, we're social animals-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...and we need that social connection, and we're being kind of, we're optimizing that out of our lives.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It feels to me like this remote working thing is, has exacerbated the issue-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because we're... You know, for, for young people, es- uh, you know, I think that the office is, uh, one of the few institutions we have left where we are in person.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We no longer get dating. We do that on apps.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Food, we don't go to restaurants anymore. We just order Uber Eats.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And now work, they're telling us, is gonna be done from Zoom.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm like, "What do we have left?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, lonely. We're gonna be lonely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We're gonna be lonely. (laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, and it's not a coincidence that we see rising rates of depression, anxiety, suicide, you know, especially in, in younger generations. So, you know-It's not causal, but it's, there's definitely a correlation. You know, it reminds me of when, um... And I'm old enough for this, some of your listeners are not. But I remember when the internet showed up (laughs) and e-commerce started. And I remember some of the people who were really into the tech running around thinking, "This is the death of bricks and mortars. There will never be stores again." And now Amazon opened stores and Rent the Runway opened stores. And turns out, it's, the extremes are not great places, you know? It's not the death, it's live alongside, they become different animals. They become different reasons. We go to shops not to get the best deal. You go to- you go to- you go to websites to get the best deal. You go to shops 'cause it's fun. You go to shops to try stuff on. You go to shops because it's an activity, 'cause we, our hunter-gatherer instincts, we like foraging and looking for things. It's entertainment. We enjoy the service aspect, you know? It's with our friends. Sometimes it's not about the shops at all, it's just a- a place, something to do with our friends. Play- plays a different role, and the smart retailers know that. And so when we talk about work, it's the same. "It's the death of the corporate headquarters, it's the death of the office." I'm like, "Eh, is it though?" You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
The reality is, this is gonna be somewhere in the middle. And I think one thing, with all the predictions about what the future of work looks like, I think one thing we can be absolutely sure of is there'll be more flexibility. Where, you know, where it used to be, "Hey boss, can I take off next Friday? Can I work from home next Friday? I have to stay home for whatever," right? Becomes emailing in the morning saying, "I'm working from home today," and everybody's just fine with it. You know, introverts liking work- working from home, extroverts like working at the office. But at the same time, sometimes extroverts should stay home because it- they can get more work done. And sometimes introverts need to come to the office 'cause they need to connect and- and- and we want you to be a part of the culture. And so I don't think, you know, making any predictions about what it will look like, I think is a little foolish at this time. We know it'll be some sort of amalgamation, we know it'll be more flexible, and probably every office will be slightly different and it'll fit whatever their culture is. And I think the office environment will become one of the selling- selling things, which is if somebody really hates this office environment, they'll find another company where they like the office environment. But I think what's really interesting about the Great Resignation, what's being talked about less in the Great Resignation is sort of the reasons for it. Some people talk about the government checks that we've gotten. That runs out, so that's not a main reason for it. People talk about, uh, how people are quitting to follow their dreams, you know, "I've always wanted to be an actor or writer." Great. And that is definitely a percentage. And I- and I love that, but that's not ... Those numbers aren't big enough. I think what I think is more interesting is that the Great Resignation is an indictment on decades of substandard corporate culture and poor leadership. Where ... And because it's a big deal that we're seeing people, especially at- at, um, frontline level jobs, which, um, where leadership used to say of them, "They should just be happy to have a job," right? Um, that- that those people are quitting without new jobs necessarily is a big deal. Um, and they're definitely not all just following their dreams. I think it is because in the past, you know, when you ask those people, "How's work?" And they'd be like, "It's fine." "Is it good?" "No, it's- it's fine. It's a job, it's fine." "Well, why didn't you quit?" Because the unknown was way scarier than fine.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so what they made do with fine, and leadership took advantage, a lot of corporate managers took advantage of the fact that they could get away with fine.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
"We can do the minimum, because they're not gonna leave. They sh- they're lucky to have a job. And what, are they gonna go out there in the- the great unknown? Fine is fine." And then COVID happened. And a lot of people were laid off, a lot of people lost their jobs, a lot of people were furloughed. Some people kept their jobs, but just lived in fear. And we all kinda made it out okay. We ate, we had food.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Um, most people made it okay. Uh, even if it was difficult, they made it through. And so all of a sudden, the great unknown, a lot less scary. And so when you're offering me fine, I choose unknown. That's a better option. In fact, not only do I choose unknown, I'm gonna wait until you fix fine. And I don't think enough companies are recognizing that the Great Resignation is an indictment, that the Great Resignation is a- a- a wag of the finger that you have been getting away with substandard culture and poor leadership for too long and you better fix your stuff. And I think the companies that will have the huge advantages is not the com- the companies that get the balance of in-person or- or- or- or, uh, or online work, right. I don't think that's what makes it. I think the companies that get the huge advantage moving forwards are the ones that teach leadership to their leaders-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... that teach these human skills that we've been talking about, that create a corporate environment and a- and a corporate culture that I wanna go to every day, and I actually form good, strong bonds with my new tribe, with the people I go to work with. And I'm willing to sacrifice and not get everything exactly how I want it, because I'd rather be here and serve these wonderful group of people. Those are the companies that will have the huge advantage over the next decades or two.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things that I saw in that post-COVID period was, i- in my company in particular, was o- one of the things that I believe, and from our- our research at the time ... I'm no longer with this company, so I can kind of talk about it, um, with a bit more honesty. In our- in our questionnaires, we would see that a lot of the reason why people love to come and work there was because of the...... the company culture.
- 1:12:06 – 1:19:24
Steven, what are the reasons you're doing DOAC
- SBSteven Bartlett
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I think about even this podcast and setting purposeful goals for what we're doing here, we definitely fell in the trap of being, like I think a lot of people do, you get consumed in the charts. Oh my God, we're number one.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right?
- SSSimon Sinek
For now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
For now, yeah, and then you scratch your head and go-
- SSSimon Sinek
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... "Well then, what, what next?" What's a, what's a more worthy-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... more purposeful goal for us to have as a team when we're building something like this podcast? 'Cause it's so easy to get, you know, caught up in-
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... we want to be number one in the charts and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that does drive you to some extent.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It seems to be a, a reason, whether it's a- a- a- a vapid one or whatever. But what is a better, more worthy, purposeful goal to set?
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay, so let's take a step back.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh-oh.
- SSSimon Sinek
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're gonna interrogate me.
- SSSimon Sinek
No. What was the reason you did episode one?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um-... plentiful. I'm gonna give you all of them, very honest as well. I thought podcasting as a medium would be a big opportunity. I thought that was, would be a really effective medium of communication when that's growing.
- SSSimon Sinek
Opportunity for what?
- SBSteven Bartlett
To grow my personal brand.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm gonna give you all of the reasons.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Even the selfish ones.
- SSSimon Sinek
Go on.
Episode duration: 1:35:38
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