The Diary of a CEOSpotify Founder: How A 23 Year Old Introvert Built A $31 Billion Business!
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,159 words- 0:00 – 2:16
Intro
- DEDaniel Ek
I'm an introvert. Not amazing, academically. Didn't feel like I belonged anywhere. Average, at best. (music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And yet you created Spotify.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- NANarrator
Daniel Ek.
- DEDaniel Ek
Spotify founder and CEO.
- NANarrator
He's not only saved the music industry, he's created a $50 billion company, and he himself is worth more than $4 billion.
- DEDaniel Ek
I flunked high school, then started on my first company that later got acquired.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you retired at 23? (laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah. The first month was fun. Night clubs, sports car, 20 or 30 girls throwing around money. Six months in, realized that this thing I thought I wanted, I just didn't want at all. I was just empty. Just thinking, "Am I ever gonna get out of this depression?" And, "What to do with life?" What if you can work on something you actually care about, what would you pick? Music. But the industry's going down the drain. I honestly did not think we would succeed. But if we succeed, I knew it was gonna be a big thing. Spotify is here. A one-stop shop for music. Big ones who use Spotify? I love it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I read the journey to that success, had multiple near-death experiences.
- DEDaniel Ek
It was awful. Ran out of money. I lost all of the hair, gained 30 pounds. And the problem was I modeled myself on the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world, run every meeting, be the best product person. It just wasn't me. Share the burden with someone. It is so important. We tend to believe the world's more logical than what it is, but it's based on relationships. Be the easiest person to deal with and you'd be surprised how many problems it solves.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of those problems was Apple. What's your opinion on Apple?
- DEDaniel Ek
(inhales deeply) (upbeat music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Daniel, what is the most important context that I need to know about you to understand the man that sits in front of me today? And when I ask about context, I wanna go right back to where you come from and that earliest environment that... I almost, I almost see it like an oven. I see our earliest context as like an oven that-
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... baked us into who we are today.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is that context?
- DEDaniel Ek
I'm a product of a very, very strong single mom. Um, a woman that probably had a chip on her shoulder, um, against her sibling, her brother,
- 2:16 – 10:55
The Influence of Daniel Ek's Upbringing: A Single Mother's Determination
- DEDaniel Ek
her older brother, who kind of said, "You can't do this. You can't raise, uh, a child to be productive." Um, and I think, uh, she kind of, uh, just, well, hell-bent on making a point, uh, of showing that, you know, um, I was going to be successful in her definition, and successful meant, uh, well-educated, well-read, uh, and be able to handle almost, um, anything thrown at me. And just to give you an example of that, while I was brought up in the suburb of Stockholm, very much a working-class, rough neighborhood, one of the big things that my mother did was she had me, um, doing pentathlon. And the pentathlon was like the classic pentathlon. So that means fencing, horseback riding, uh, shooting, uh, running, and swimming. Um, doesn't sound like what someone basically from the projects-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
... in, in Stockholm, uh, would do, but she thought that would be a good sort of, um, wide education for me. Um, and, and pretty much my entire life has been around that. I, I was kind of clumsy as a kid. Um, my, my fine motor skills was pretty good. My rough motor skills wasn't very good, so she enrolled me in, like, an all-female gymnastics group. Um, you know, I'm an introvert, so she enrolled me in a theater group, um, to have me, you know, learn, um, how, um, to express myself. Uh, and, and so, uh, an eclectic childhood, um, but one where she heavily influenced me. Uh, brought me along in almost every context with adults, uh, with professors, like at a very early age, and just had me sit, sit along. Uh, or with just the person from next door who was struggling getting to the next paycheck. And, and I really saw all of those contrasts in, in life from a very young age.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did she have any desire for you to become any specific thing 'cause-
- DEDaniel Ek
Uh, I, I, I'm honestly not sure, but I think she wanted me to be broad, um, just in general. Um, so, um, and, and I think in many families, you kind of have this maybe educational pressure where you have to be a doctor, you have to be a lawyer. Like, none of that mattered to my mom. Um, the only thing that mattered, and she kept repeating this, was that "You need to become a good human being." Um, and for her, um, if I wanted to study, sure. Um, she thought education mattered and was important. Um, but, um, not like in other families. And the only thing, in fact, um, you know, probably influenced Spotify later on was, um, I very much come from a music family. My, my grandfather was an opera singer. My grandmother was, um, an actress in theater, but also, um, jazz pianist. So, um, like, music education was, weirdly enough, like, the, the premier education that was focused on for me. And then all the other stuff, she was basically only important that I showed effort. Um, I, I had a pretty easy time in school, and so, uh, she constantly kept pushing me because she felt that I wasn't, uh, I wasn't making enough of an effort, uh, no matter what. So it wasn't about the grade. I could come home with a straight A, uh, she would still be like, "Well, did you really make an effort? I don't think so." And, um, and, um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
And, and so for her, it was kind of always that thing about, like, just pushing and making the real effort.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, she cared more about, less about the outcome and more about how much of your potential you were realizing?
- DEDaniel Ek
Yes. Yeah. Very much so.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, on school then, you, you, you referenced that she kind of identified you as an introvert early on. But then, I think you said you had a good, you had an easy time in school.
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Typically people that are introverted, that are, um, an only child at the time that they go off to school, often they struggle a little bit.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because, you know, finding friends and fitting into social groups, and I read somewhere else that you don't love small talk.
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You tend to gravitate towards the people that you know.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was school like for someone, for a kid like that?
- DEDaniel Ek
(smacks lips) Well, uh, I, I think, you know, um, I think there are many types of introverts. Let's begin with that. And I can switch it on when I have to. Uh, and certainly I think the theater helped me, um, you know, I can be very, project a lot of things if I'd like to, um, a- and be a force of nature. But it doesn't come easy. That requires tons of energy, whereas others get energy from, like, the room, and they're, like, very excited. It's just not me. Um, for me, anything with anyone I'm not comfortable with is really taking a lot of energy. Um, um, but it, but I think the easy time in school was just, uh, I loved learning. I've always l- loved learning, so, um, you know, put, be putting in an environment where you're constantly, uh, being forced to learn new things wasn't a very hard thing for me, and, um, I have a very good, um... I used to have a very good memory. I don't (laughs) have it anymore, but I was able to memorize very easily, the concepts and the things that we talked about in school. And so, um, I think in that end, it was very easy for me, and then again because my mother tried to make me very broad, um, the positive and the negative of that aspect is, I could kinda be in any social group. I could be with the athletes. I wasn't the best athlete by a- any stretch of the imagination, but it worked. Uh, I could be in the musician's group as well with any of the people who were really good at arts. Um, and I, you know, uh, probably wasn't the best at any of that stuff either. But it was pretty decent. But I could also be in the math group. I probably wasn't the best at math, but I was pretty decent.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- DEDaniel Ek
And, um, that, uh, to be honest, is kind of the story of my life. Um, you can kind of plug me in anywhere. I won't excel at practically anything, but I'll hold my fort. And that's, I think, both a blessing and a curse. The blessing is, in, is that it's very easy for people to, for me to be able to relate to other people enough where I'm accepted in the group. But it's hard in the sense, the downside with that is that I never really belong anywhere.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
Because I'm not that one-sided, um, as an individual. You know, I'm not an artist. I'm not a technologist. Um, I'm not a businessperson. I'm all of that and probably a few other things as well. Um, and, and you can see that very clearly with my friend group too. You'll have artists on the one s- and you'll have entrepreneurs on the other end, and it's very hard for them to speak to each other most times.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
But I love it. I love, um, seeing very creative people. I love, uh, you know, businesspeople and scientists mixed together. Whereas the scientist gets very, you know, have a hard time, uh, uh, found, uh, speaking to an, an artist. Um, and quite often they're talking past each other. Um, for me, it's just, I love it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, and, and, that's the blessing and curse.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I speak to people that know you and work with you, they describe you as ambitious. Now ambition and being ambitious is an interesting word because it's often loaded with this presumption that someone has a desire for a certain outcome.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like they're trying to... They're ambitious because they want to be really successful or they want a gazillion pounds. Um, are you ambitious and what does that actually mean to you?
- 10:55 – 23:33
Paths to Success: University vs. Startup Experience
- DEDaniel Ek
saying of, "You shoot for the stars and you land on the moon." Um, that is very much kind of my life philosophy. Why not try to do it bigger? Why not try to do it, um, even more interesting? And maybe I have to settle for something less. But isn't it more interesting and more fun to try to do the really big, hairy, audacious thing?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Not for everyone. (laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
Maybe, maybe not. Uh, but I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
You'll know that 'cause you work with so many people that maybe don't lean into ambition.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah. Uh, uh, that, that's true, but I, I also wonder if, if that's true, uh, or whether they're just worried about really testing themself and understanding where their limits are. So many people are more afraid of failure than they are of success.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- DEDaniel Ek
Uh, and that stops them from even beginning to try. Um, right? And, and I find that so many times, like the amount of people I'm sure came to you and was like, "Oh, it's really good for you, but I had the same idea." It's like, "Okay, well why didn't you do anything about it?" Uh, and, and oftentimes it's like well, for this and that and that reason, and they talk themselves out of it. Um, but at the very core I believe it comes down to that they're actually more worried about failing than-... they are about the prospects of succeeding.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Y- your kids, then, what would you advise them to do if they were, say they wanted to follow in your footsteps, in particular, or start a business-
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... at that juncture where we kind of leave high school-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and we can either go into, like, work or university. Would you-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you think the, the university system is a little bit outdated?
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah. I do. Um, but, uh, as with many things, um, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't think it's bad, I don't think it's good either. I think it depends. There are certain people that do well in that structure and, and need that kind of rigor of that sort of path to go down and do incredibly well, um, against, um, you know, the essays and they ace it and they're really good and they're really good with the lectures and then taking the notes and just have that sort of discipline in that area of their life where they do well in that circumstance, and then that education then sets them up for greater things. So, I think it depends. I mean, if your dream is to become a lawyer, then I think you have to go through that path, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, because it's impossible otherwise. I think if you wanna be an entrepreneur, um, uh, the single best thing you can do is to, um, probably study as many businesses as you can and get as much business exposure in that. So, what do I mean by that? Well, it can come in by working for businesses, uh, that are great, but more importantly probably, working for great individuals, um, and learning from them, right? So, if you are fortunate enough to be able to do, um... You know, we were talking about this, but, um, your behind the scenes version, um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
And, and, and being able to, like, work for you in that and see you up, up close, it's gonna be invaluable for that individual they get to do that. Um, because you get to see entrepreneurship from the first row. You get to see what it's like, um, what business aspect, what's, um... You know, how do you do that? How much admin do you need to carry? And even if you, you're just a fly on the wall, you're gonna learn so many skills that are quite diverse and, and that's the, I think, the, the biggest trick about entrepreneurship, is like the, the... For me, uh, everyone, when they think about the word innovation, they think that it's something entirely novel. Yet, for me, innovation, um, I don't know of a single thing that just someone came up with, uh, that had no prior grounds. Everything is about putting two or more things in- together in a new context. Um, so studying many different things, understanding a little bit about business, understanding a little bit about, um, product and how to make that product, um, understanding, uh, whatever it is that are drivers, uh, from that, I think is important. Um, and that's not to say that university can't do that and it can't be helpful to learning sales and the theory of it, et cetera. Um, but I think that there is many other paths you could take, uh, that may even, if you're, um, you know, if you have enough grit and kind of like are able to put yourself in a situation where you can, uh, get in front of the right person, start working for them, um, so much is, in life, is around people believing in you and, and giving you the right place to grow. Um, and, and, and it's, it's really serendipitous, to be honest. Um, and, and, and I'm certainly a product of all that, so I- I- I think it is not right or wrong, it's just I- I dislike how we're talking about it as it is the way or, um, you know, it's not the way. And it's like, no, I think it's more like it works sometimes-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... for certain individuals, and then for other individuals, it is not the best use of their time and there are other paths you can take. But educating yourself, even if that's outside of a university and getting a degree concept, that, I think, is invaluable and it's the most important thing you can be doing as a young individual about anything you're interested in.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think that's one of the big misconceptions people have about me when they hear I dropped out of university. They think I don't like education.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, no, no, no, no. (laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I spend all day, like, and all- all night till 2:00 AM learning about rockets and AI and all that stuff.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm a self-educated-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... but the institution of education that is university, uh, for me, I just couldn't s- stay awake-
- 23:33 – 25:45
Daniel Ek's Wake-Up Call After Retiring At 22
- DEDaniel Ek
honestly. I had all these new friends that weren't really great friends at all. Um, luckily I was able to keep my old friends as well, um, but I realized that this thing I thought I wanted, uh, I just didn't want at all. And, um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was the symptom? When we say realize, there's typically symptoms, psychological-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... symptoms or...
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, no. I- I realized it because I- I, um, you know, I started getting all these phone calls from people, um, asking me to come out on Friday evenings and Saturday evenings, uh, and I just ha- h- I was just empty. I just had no energy to do that. Um, and I thought to myself, "Oh, this is odd."... because the old me thought this was what life was all about, and I had, I had girls call me and like, "Hey, you should really come out. We miss you," all of that stuff. And I realized that I just didn't care, and had, um, I thought that that was, uh, you know, this magical moment. And in fact, um, you know, putting on my computer or playing my guitar, um, was kind of, yeah, this is more me. And so something on the back of my head started forming around like, who am I? What do I care about? And it's, it's actually in that process I met my co-founder, because he was the founder of Tradedoubler and, uh, who, uh, bought my, uh, company, and he too had kind of g- the company had IPO'd. He got kicked out of the company. Uh, he, he was like, uh, 100 times more wealthier than I was. Like, he, he, he had like, the biggest success in Tech Sweden at the time, and had everything going for him, but he didn't know what to do with life. And so that was kind of how we bonded. Um, and, um, you know, we were watching like, old Godfather (laughs) movies, eating crisps, um, and, uh, talking about what to do in life. Uh, and, and that was like, a real friendship moment, a real turning point, uh, and he saw, um, e- the same thing that I saw and, uh, um, you know, uh, that was when I realized that I'd been approaching this all wrong. Uh, in fact, I always
- 25:45 – 27:10
Finding Passion in Work
- DEDaniel Ek
loved working. It was never about the money. Um, I always liked learning, um, and I would pay to go learn from someone rather than getting paid for it, and ... But at the same time, I thought work should be hard. That was the thing that I had programmed into me. So work has to be clearly something you not, don't enjoy doing. Um, so I thought, well, what if you changed all of these parameters? What if you create an environment where you can come in and learn from really smart people all the time? What if you can work on something you actually care about, opposed to something that makes money? What if you could have a lot of fun while doing it and not take it s- too serious? And we started talking, and, um, we were bouncing ideas, and Martin, my co-founder, was like, asking me, like, "Well, i- if you really could pick anything, like, what, what, what would you pick?" And I, I'm, I said to him, "Well, um, you know, uh, I'd probably pick music, but that's a terrible idea." Uh, and he said, "Well, why is that a terrible idea?" And I said, "Well, it's a terrible idea because, you know, the industry's going down the drains." It just doesn't work. It's piracy. It's all of these reasons. And he said, "Okay, um, but, but if one would fix it, how would one do?" "Well, kind of stupid. They're trying to regulate it. Clearly, you need to build a better product. That's the only thing that's gonna work." So he said, "Okay, well, how
- 27:10 – 36:27
The Unlikely Start: Daniel Ek's Vision for Spotify
- DEDaniel Ek
are you gonna do that?" And I was like, "Well, I don't know, but maybe you could do this or that." "Okay, well, how would that work?" Uh, I was like, "Well, I don't know, but maybe you could do this and that." "And how would you make money?" "Well, I, I think maybe you could pay out based on how much people were listening. I don't know." And then literally, uh, after going through why nots, uh, 100 time- times, I started realizing that, yeah, why not? And why not give this a shot? And I told him from the beginning, you know, uh, that, um, hey, this is probably gonna lose us a lot of money. I have a hard time seeing this ever being a sustainable business. Um, but I'm in. Let's do this. And he said, "Great, let's do it." Um, and while I was hesitating, for some reason, he wasn't. Uh, so he was like, "This seems fun. Let's do it." And that gave me enough confidence where I kind of had found a new purpose again, and instantly, I stopped responding to all the people who were trying to get me out in the evenings, and I was like, "Well, I got something to do." And then I went back to work again, and it was like, pretty much a week from that moment where I felt like I'm happy again. I haven't felt this happy for, you know, the better part of a year, because it was about a year when I was going through this transition of, of just having fun, being retired. Um, first month was fun. Six months in, depressing. Uh, nine months in, am I ever gonna get out of this depression? To then, kind of a year in, finding something else that I truly look forward to. That felt crazy, um, and I honestly did not think we would succeed. But if we succeed, I knew it was gonna be a big thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Something really interesting there that I could relate to a lot was this idea that you had a hypothesis about your happiness that had to fail you to know that it was not a valid hypothesis about happiness. And there's so many people obviously, I mean, there's pro- I would assume it's more than half the population are currently pursuing a hypothesis they have about what will make them happy.
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That probably, and this is the thing I always wonder is, does it have to fail them for them to know that that's not the right pursuit? In my case, it did. It had to fail me.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I had to feel the anticlimax-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and then I had to go and buy the, the big house, and then was there for nine months and got out of it as quick as I could, and bought the car and then got rid of the car, and-
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... then just moved as close to the office as I could in a one-bedroom studio apartment. (laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But for a lot of people, like, is there a way for them not, for, for them not to have to go all that way and have it fail them?
- DEDaniel Ek
Well, I, I think that there's certain life experiences, um, uh, that you can't learn from other people. You just have to live, live, live it. And I think it's not so about, much about sort of, uh, the monetary thing or the status thing, um, uh, although I would probably say status, whether or not you should really seek it, uh, I think is one of those things that we all have to go through. I, I think everyone could talk about it. Don't seek attention. Don't seek fame. Don't seek all of these things. But we're, we're human beings. We wanna be well liked by other people. Um, and so I think that is probably one of them. But, but in general, I think the further away it is from anything you know and can relate to, I think, um ...... we have to, uh, experience parts of it. So, you know, one of, one of the most amazing thing that I get to do these days for my friends is, um, from, like, back when, is I take them on these crazy experiences. Uh, right? You know, I'm, I'm fortunate enough that I get to see some of the coolest people in the world, whether it's musicians, but athletes and, and so on. Um, that, uh, they're able to get a glimpse of my life-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... uh, and I love it because, um, you know, they're looking at it with this kind of child- childlike imagination and wonder about som- some things that I'm going through, but I also see the other side when they're like, "Is it really that much work? Wow, I would never want to do this." And it's- it's quite-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... helpful, um, because, as- as we started out saying, they have this idea w- what the life is, so I kind of like bringing them along on the journey where they get to see it, and then, um, you can see that there are aspects of it that they like and then other aspects that they would never ever want to get into. Um, so, um, you know, I- I think it might be possible to kind of simulate that experience-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... um, but I think you have to experience it very much up close, uh, certainly when you're talking about wealth and if you come from having none. I think almost everyone then would instantly need to experience a little bit of it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... uh, to at least kind of understand whether that's important or not, especially if you get it, um, like we both did probably in our 20s and so on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
Had I- had I worked up until my 40s, I may have kind of realized, "Hey this is in life. I'm- I'm having children. I'm having my wife. This is amazing." I got this experience being a single guy trying to chase girls.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, and all I'd seen was on MTV how, uh, all of the rappers, uh, were throwing around money and, uh, having 20 or 30 girls at the nightclub and- and, you know, hey, I wanted that too.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. One thing I'm really interested in is you said you got to nine months and you were depressed.
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Nine months after the sale.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There are so many people now, and this is why I asked about what the symptoms of that were.
- 36:27 – 45:28
Balancing Love and Alone Time in Entrepreneurship
- DEDaniel Ek
I actually didn't care in the end, uh, from being status. I cared about belonging, but not in that group. Um, I wanted to be, uh, in another group that cared about, um, me for being me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you must have learned a lot now in hindsight about what the core components of you being...... sufficiently happy, or you've used a few of them there, like learning was one of them.
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Belonging.
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are the- what are the other cool components of, you think, for someone, just let's, it's easier to just talk about ourselves here-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... for you to be stable?
- DEDaniel Ek
Um.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That makes it-
- DEDaniel Ek
I, I, I realized, um, that I also need to be by, by m- be allowed to be by myself, right? Um, so I used to, in prior relationships, um, before meeting my wife, I used to think, you know, you're in a relationship, you constantly need to do something with the other party, and it was draining me. And, um, I used to think it was something wrong with me, uh, because I wanted to be by myself for most of the time. And, um, and being comfortable with that I am that way-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... that I, I thrive on loneliness. Uh, not all the time, because I can feel lonely-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
... um, but, um, for quite a lot of time, per- perhaps more so than most normal people like being lonely. Um, I'm, I'm just finding myself in that, um, place where I just pursue whatever, um, is top of mind for me. I am sort of in my own thoughts, uh, wondering, dreaming, uh, scheming. Um, you know, um, that's been very important too because I used to think there was something wrong with that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DEDaniel Ek
Uh, and then my wife, luckily she's kind of the same. She does her thing and I do my thing, and we love that we can do sh- stuff with each other, but we're also perfectly happy doing things on our own. Um, and, um, um, that kind of taught me also quite a lot about myself in that because I, again, we are social animals, uh, and I am too, by the way. I love, um, hanging out with my friends, but I also love being by myself. So, I think having a positive impact, um, not just on myself, I have to feel good about what I'm doing and know that it helps someone, um, being able to learn, um, being able to have fun while doing it, and, um, then be in an environment where I can be lonely and then can come back-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... without that being sort of socially awkward. Uh, like, uh, one of my favorite things that I can do with my close friends is I can literally, uh, let's say I would host a dinner. I could host a dinner, uh, and I get an idea. This is very uncommon, but I'll get an idea and I will walk away and disappear for an hour-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
... and I'll come back. Um, and, uh, that's like something that's kind of socially unacceptable in most situation. I do realize that, so I, I try to not do that if I'm, I'm with, um, you know, strangers because-
- SBSteven Bartlett
They won't understand.
- DEDaniel Ek
... n- they won't- won't understand. But my real friends, um, they know that about me, and they're like totally cool, so they just hang out. And then when I come back, I love that they're there, and I love that they are hanging out with my kids or hanging out with my wife, and doing other stuff, and just being comfortable in, in that that for me is like a perfect dinner, is one where I would be social, I would get an idea, walk away, think about it for a moment, get... collect my thoughts, get energy, write it down, and come back filled with energy from that. And then, you know, continue the conversation. Uh, that's a great example of something I love doing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, that's actually happened where you've been at a dinner party with friends and then you've had an idea and you've left. You've, and then you've... My thing there is if I'd left, so the first thing is that I'm not sure my girlfriend would be very happy.
- DEDaniel Ek
(laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
She understands that I'm like that. She understands that I love being alone. She understands that I get ideas at unpredictable times-
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and that an idea might suck me away. She probably wouldn't be that happy, um, about it. Probably need to have a conversation about that. Um, but also, if I went away, I would need to start working on the idea-
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... 'cause I'd get so energized about the thing-
- 45:28 – 46:28
Innovative Problem-Solving: Daniel Ek's Approach to Challenges
- DEDaniel Ek
Uh, we move mountains. Um, I'm sure Elon was, you know, even more insurmountable thing, electric cars, and hadn't been a successful car companies for, uh, I think a century or something, um, or at least, uh, you know, many, many decades in the US and he managed to do that. So I think it's, um, it's, it's part illusion, uh, delusion, sorry. Um, but, but the other part I think, um, also is that what I realized is, before even committing to this idea, so the, the why not part, I probably spent 500 hours learning about this problem. And the scarcest resource we have in the world today by far is time. And when you have high quality people that spend thousands of hours on a problem, you find new solutions. And so the biggest, um, thing for humanity,
- 46:28 – 50:23
Pursuing Opportunities When They Present themselves
- DEDaniel Ek
I believe, is simply that. Um, I believe we're capable of doing practically anything. But, uh, there aren't that many people that, um, can see these multidimensional things with that right experience that happens to come in at that right time, they're spending thousands of hours of trying to, you know, needle in a ha- haystack see that opportunity through that very, very tiny prism. And, and, um, um, e- even, even today when I think about it, some of my other businesses, it kind of worked the same way. So I started a healthcare business about five years ago. But I, I was spending, um... I think the first interview, when I mentioned it, uh, was in 2009, um, and I started the company five years ago, uh, 2018. So I, I probably spent a decade thinking about this problem, um, and I couldn't figure out a solution.
- SBSteven Bartlett
2008?
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You started the company in 2008, but you started-
- DEDaniel Ek
No, no, I started the company, the healthcare company in 2018.
- SBSteven Bartlett
18, right.
- DEDaniel Ek
But I started thinking about it 2008.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, okay, see.
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, so I have a notebook with all my crazy ideas. Most of them amount to nothing. Uh, quite often someone else comes along, does them, uh, and I'm happy and it's amazing. Um, but every now and then, um, nothing happens for a great period of time and I kind of feel that itch to maybe make a difference myself. And I, and, and I say that because, like, the realization there was, um, I had spent up until that point thousands of hours understanding the healthcare system, why it is the way it is, the incentive schemes and the, what the NHS is doing and what someone else is doing, and the public healthcare system, insurance, uh, business, direct to consumer things, the, the longevity curves of human beings, the disease groups, the costs curves, like all of those aspects, um, about it, similar to how you're describing looking at rockets. Um, but, you know, imagine you spending a thousand hours a rocket, not just kind of casually researching it. I am sure you will find novel ways of how to attack the problem. It may not be because, you know, if you're not an, a physicist, you may not come up with the next, uh, rocket engine, um, but you may find another twist, uh, to, on how to attack this problem. And I, I don't really think it comes down to that. And so, uh, in the space of music, I don't know anything about the music industry going into it, um, but I would argue a few years into it, I was probably one of the most foremost experts on copyright in the world around, like, the DMCA and, um, what the US copyright regime looked like and what, what, um, other regimes looked like and how, um, you know, performance rights, societies, label rights, and what kind of rights, mechanical rights, performing rights, uh, all of those ev- different aspects, all the different co- code IS- RC numbers, ISBN numbers, and how they related and so on and so forth. And, and, um-Um, you know, I f- I find, like, people either get too muddled in on the details and don't see the bigger picture, or they stay too top-level-picture to really see the nuance. And the question is, how do you dive deep enough where you see it and figure out which problem to solve in what order? Um, and, and I was, at that point, um, by probably 2007, having spent a year on Spotify, but the team was super small, so there really wasn't a big commit at that time. And I wasn't sure at that time. But then I realized that, hey, this is actually possible, uh, because we'd built a product that showcased the technology, um, of what we were doing, and it felt like if you had all the world's music on your hard drive. So then, the real problem ended up being, can we get the music industry to accept
- 50:23 – 52:30
Surviving Apple Music's Challenge: Spotify's Focus on User Experience
- DEDaniel Ek
this? And to that, I had no idea, but I felt like this is so obviously if this came out in the marketplace what consumers would ask for. Now, the only question is, is the music industry going to allow this? And that took me another year and a half, 18 months, to learn the answer, and it was completely binary. We almost died probably four times, um, in that process and ran out of money, and, uh, record companies saying, "No, no, no, this is never gonna happen," until eventually one day, the stars aligned, and we were able to launch. Uh, but that was not a given, but it felt like the right bet to make because, you know, it was a binary outcome. Either we'd fail, the price wasn't all too bad. If we would succeed, it was clearly so that at least this would resonate very well with consumers.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was there, uh, any moments where you thought that it wasn't gonna happen, i.e. conversations you had with record labels where someone very high up says, "Absolutely no way"?
- DEDaniel Ek
Uh, ma- many times. Uh, I would say, um, probably once every month or two over a two-year period I thought that this probably won't pan out. Uh, and it was incredibly demoralizing. I, I usually joke, but at, like, in the beginning of that process, I had hair, and then in the end of it, I lost all of the hair. Uh, I probably gained 30 pounds in weight, uh, during that period of time. Um, it was awful. Um, but throughout, my co-founder, Martin, uh, probably a factor of just who he is as an individual, but also probably because he didn't participate in these meetings, uh, uh, kept being really upbeat, kept being, um, you know, amazing support, and said, "Don't worry about it. You're gonna figure it out." And he just kept believing in me. And then he also said a few times, you know, when that wasn't enough, he said, "Don't worry about it. We'll figure out something else if this so- doesn't work out." It felt to me like I always had a safety net. It was just the amount, the push that I needed to do this. Um, and again, I'm talking about not giving advice, but the advice that I do
- 52:30 – 56:12
The Strength of Co-founders: Supporting Each Other in Tough Times
- DEDaniel Ek
give to other people is to share the burden with someone. Uh, it is so important. Um, and I know I get most of the credit for Spotify, but it is really a team effort, uh, from the Gustavs and Alex and all those people. But then also in the early days, from, uh, Martin in believing in me, uh, and, and knowing, uh, this kind of supernatural ability that I'm gonna pull it off somehow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I must have told you a story which I g- I guess has stayed with you about perseverance and the power of perseverance. The, the double-edged sword to that is sometimes it's right to quit as well.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And knowing when to persevere and knowing when you're just wasting your time, which is, as you said, the most important currency of all.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
H- uh, you know.
- DEDaniel Ek
That's where, you know, art meets science. Um, there is no scientific answer 'cause it depends. It's an art to know, uh, when something is futile and when something is worth doing. But I call it that, sort of, binary outcome, but, uh, with uneven distribution, right? So, if you think about it as a curve, even if it's 50/50 whether you succeed, but on the upside, you can win a lot more than you can lose, and all you can really lose is one time, but the upside may be 100.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
It's probably worth, uh, persuading. Obviously, it's, that's the science part. The art thing is, okay, well, is it really 100 times, is it 10 times, and, and have I already lost but I'm just not aware of it? Um, that's the art.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And also in that, I hear an optimism bias from two co-founders. The, the constant, "Oh, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out."
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How important do you think that is? Especially, you know, you hire a lot of people. Is that something you're, like, looking for in the people that you work with, that bias towards we'll figure it out?
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, I think, again, it depends on the role-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DEDaniel Ek
... you're hiring for. You need a team.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
Uh, I think it's really important that you just don't surround yourself with just yes people or optimists. Uh, you need the naysayer in the room as well. You need the people who will balance it out and be the one that says, "Mm, I'm not sure this is gonna work out." Um, and, and so often I think that's the, that's the important part. We keep talking about a CFO or sales people, but again, you can have a deal-making CFO and a sales person that's happy-go-lucky, um, it may not be a great, uh, combo. You may want the, the CFO to be skeptical about the sales pipeline and a happy-go-lucky, uh, sales person, or the inverse.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
Maybe a, like, really diligent that, and a CFO that maybe, sort of, like, don't worry about it, we will sort it out. Um, but I, but I think so much about that is the subtleties. We h- we don't have a perfect model of the world. Um, and, uh, the more experience I have, it's a cheesy thing to say, but th- the less I realize that I actually know. Uh, and so much of these are actually down in the nuances, and most people are, um, above the nuances, don't really understand the issues well enough, or too bogged down in the details to understand the bigger picture.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
And, and going that, sort of, up and down, that's, sort of, super detail-oriented, um, but also being able to go up and see the big pictures. That is, um... And simplifying very complex concepts, I think some of the most amazing entrepreneurs in the world are experts at. Um, and that is a superpower.... and, uh, that is certainly one that I'm trying to hone-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... um, uh, and work on. Uh, but when you see a, like a Steve Jobs, when he did very complex things, and people say he didn't understand engineering and technical problems. It's not true. Yes, he
- 56:12 – 59:38
Networking for Business Success: Building Relationships with Assistants
- DEDaniel Ek
may not have been an engineer. He may not have known how to write code, but he certainly could empathize with what, um, made an amazing engineer tick, uh, empathize with different technical solutions, would have different inputs and outputs, um, and he understood it. And, um, he was brilliant in taking very complex ideas and understanding how to make that resonate for the everyday person.
- SBSteven Bartlett
These tales I hear of you sort of being outside record labels and waiting for the CEO to come out so that you could catch them or trying to accost, I don't know, the, the assistant outside and asking when the CEO was, was coming outside so that you could get a meeting with them.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are these tales true?
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, uh, as with many, they're probably exaggerated a little bit-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... um, but-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where is the truth?
- DEDaniel Ek
Uh, well, the, the, the truth is, that certainly happened, but it wasn't... You know, I've heard, uh, people recounted as that I slept outside of the, the r- record labels kind of in a sleeping bag. That, that didn't happen. Uh, that happened another time in my career, but it wasn't, um... It, it, it didn't happen there. But, but it certainly happened that I'd book a week, fly to New York with no meeting booked, uh, with basically an open calendar and about 20 phone calls a day just trying to figure out a time to get on the s- the schedule of, um, a senior VP or a CEO, et cetera. That certainly happened, and that taught me another thing too, which is that these assistants, like, you better befriend them because they are the keys to the kingdom, um, and most people don't care about them at all. Uh, but they're very influential. They're very powerful. Um, and, uh, and, and, and, you know, uh, that was hard in the beginning, but then I realized that, um, they got to see me as an individual. I saw them as an individual, and eventually, you know, th- th- this, this is not, uh... We tend to believe the world is more logical than what it is, but a lot of it is based on relationships. So eventually, some of them started taking a liking to me, and so when there was the opportunity, and they could prioritize 10 other things for that CEO to do, but I was there, I was friendly, uh, and easy to work with, show up at no moment's notice even if, you know, it was 20 minutes before finding out about it, I would show up. Um, and so I was, I was easy to deal with, so take away all that complexity in order to achieve the outcome that I wanted to do. And sometimes that is as simple as it is. Just be consistent, be the easiest person to deal with, and you'd be surprised how many problems it solves.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you invest your personal capital into starting Spotify? 'Cause I, I read again that you'd spent pretty much all of your personal wealth to-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... start the company.
- DEDaniel Ek
Uh, yeah, I did. Uh, so I in- invested, not all of it, but quite substantial amounts of it, uh, and my co-founder invested even more, but he obviously had a much larger sum of money, um, from the beginning. Um, yeah, so all in all, I think we invested about $10 million, uh, into this, um, by ourselves, uh, which was also crazy because, you know, back then, today, $10 million into a startup just wasn't... It isn't a big number. There are many startups that have done that before. But doing that on a seed stage, uh, back in 2007, uh, that just was unheard of. It was usually 500K seed check, uh, sums, et cetera.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What if it hadn't worked out? What would've been the personal implications for you financially?
- DEDaniel Ek
Uh, the personal implications that I went from
- 59:38 – 1:08:27
Financial Risk in Entrepreneurship: Daniel Ek's $10 Million Investment
- DEDaniel Ek
not having to have a job to then probably having to go back to having a job. Um, so I basically took that security, uh, that I'd built up, uh, that 22 I'm set for life, and I gave that up, um, in a moment's notice. Um, and, um, yeah, I mean, um, I'm, I, I don't know what to say. I think, uh, uh, uh, from a purely logical point of view, it was probably a terrible decision. Uh, but betting on myself and betting on yourself would probably be, again, um, I say I shouldn't give advice, but it is probably the, the best advice I could give many people is, is... you know, because especially those that want to invest in various startups, et cetera, and are... I o- but they may not have a lot of money, and then I always say, "Well, why, why don't you just bet on yourself instead? Why don't you just try to, like, work for one of these startups, like you said, and, and maybe take a little bit more equity and a little bit less pay and take out of your cash instead?" Because that way you increase the likelihood, hopefully, if you know you're good, of the company being a success, and it just feels like the more prudent thing to do. And so I had a sneaky feeling that that was the right thing to do, uh, but investing as much probably wasn't the smartest thing to do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
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- DEDaniel Ek
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the key things, key moments I reflect on as a Spotify customer, um, is when Apple launched their competing product, Apple Music, in 2015, I believe it was.
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm. Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And there was lots of articles saying that this would be the death of Spotify.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think I was even concerned as a-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... very loyal Spotify user.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I thought, "Fuck, you know, they have all the phones."
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"They have- they're kind of like the mafia."
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"They could just squash you."
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Most companies, when S- Apple comes into their territory, shake in their boots.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was it like in your office that day when Apple Music launched a competing product?
- DEDaniel Ek
You know, when you live in the thick of the fire, you're not concerned about the things that everyone else is concerned about. Um, I- I usually say public perception lags about 6 to 12 months what's actually going on. And- and so in our case, we'd known that Apple was going to launch something for probably the better part of a year, because they had the Beats acquisition beforehand, and we were hearing all sorts of rumors, et cetera, about what it was. So, absolutely, you have to be worried when one of the greatest companies on Earth, you know, decides to compete with you. So, we were concerned about it. Um, uh, and we were kind of doubling down on what our positioning w- was going to be, so you kind of, like, double and triple check whether or not, um, you know, you were deluding yourself into believing things to be true. Um, and- and so, for instance, in our case, one of the big things, um, we- we had a- some strategic pillars that we were focusing on, one of them we call ubiquity. Um, because we always knew this would eventually be the case, we- we thought that consumers would value the ability to work across all devices and all ecosystem. And our bet would be that, um, any competitor we might have had would actually focus on reinforcing their own ecosystem and not care about all the other stuff. So, the primary reason they were into a music service would be to make their own devices better, not to make the world's best music service.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
And, um, and so, you know, that's why we made such an effort of integrating into cars, integrating into all sorts of, uh, weird devices, smart fridges, whatever you might think. Um, and so- so it was kind of like reiterating that, but I felt pretty good about that position, um, in going back. And then, there's always the sort of like, what if they figured out something that we just wouldn't have thought about? Uh, and I remember, we were constantly talking to the product teams about this, uh, and, uh, like, "What- what- what if they come up with this?" And we're literally trying this ev- game theorizing every possible angle, um, on it, um, um, but I think at the end of the day, we- we kind of went through the 1,000 scenarios kind of thing. We knew we had prepared as well as we could. Um, we, um, anticipated a certain type of product. There was this kind of 1% or 10% chance, whatever you wanna quantify it as, where we'll just be wrong, and they'd come out with something that widely superseded any of our expectations. Um, but that very day, remember, we'd been preparing for that day for so long, so the first reaction was kind of them announcing it, which we expected them to do, uh, and then seeing the walkthrough of the product and realizing that, "Okay, well, we prepared for this, we thought about this," et cetera. And so, weirdly enough, as the rest of the world kind of, like, gasped for air, um, we were thinking about it, "Oh, okay, well, this was what we expected."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, and back to that point, distribution was the amazing thing. They hadn't come up with something on the product side that we just didn't anticipate, um, but it was really just about distribution. And there was nothing we could do to guard ourselves against it, um, but we felt like we had a superior experience, um, on the personalization side. The fact that, you know, if you have a Windows machine and an iPhone, um, Spotify would work, um, but Apple Music, um, wouldn't, at that time. Um, so there were many of those things that we- um, I thought had a better positioning than they had.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've- I've long thought that. I've tried both. I mean, I tried it when it came out, and I couldn't stick to it, um, and I think me and my friends who are in my music group, we all concluded that the personalization, how Spotify understands me-
- DEDaniel Ek
Mm. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is really the thing. It's hard to know why you do what you do as a consumer-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... but from analyzing it a bit more deeply, um, it just felt like I'd built... there was a lot of investment I'd done to my playlists-
- 1:08:27 – 1:13:05
Personal Growth Journey: How Daniel Ek Has Evolved
- DEDaniel Ek
I've been a Mac user since, uh...... uh, can't even remember, probably late 90s when I could first afford one, uh, all the way to now. And obviously, use the iPhone and Apple Watches, and all that stuff. So, let's start with that. And I think that's hard to square then that there's this other company that's fiercely, um, focused on just, um, itself and constantly, uh, trying to do things by itself, and not working well with others. Um, and, um, those, uh, are perhaps two different sides of the same coin, um, but, um, you know, the, the way that manifests itself, um, I think that it's a company in many cases that still sees itself as an underdog-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
... uh, but don't realize that they've become Goliath. And so, many of the tactics that made it the rebel kind of thing are, are now stifling innovation, and it's really hurting consumers to a great extent, with the 30% you talked about, with the fact that, you know, Spotify can't, um, or any developer, if you don't pay the 30%, you can't even speak to your consumers. It is kind of absurd. Um, so you know, there, there's a ruthlessness, um, on the business side of Apple, uh, and, and perhaps it's always been so, I don't know. I never got the opportunity to meet Steve Jobs, but, um, um, where just from an ethos point of view, it's just not me. Um, and, um, um, I, I have a hard time squaring that with me as the consumer-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... and me as the business leader, um, and needless to say, I, I, I do believe that Apple can and should play fair, and I think it would be way better for the world if they did. Um, and I think, um, that it would actually help them in many regards to switch their tactics and realize that they are the Goliath at this point and not David. Um, and so yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things I wanna close on, um, is your philosophy. So, I, I guess it's the same answer because Spotify's philosophy towards what's made it successful will probably be in many respects a reflection of your philosophies towards business and, and, um, more broadly towards life. But when I sit here, and I think a lot of people will sit here and say, um, there's clearly something unique about you, about the way you approach problem-solving, problems, life, business, all of those things, that has been, that has defined you and set you apart. Are you aware of what that is, what those principles are?
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, n- no, I don't think so, but I think you're right in that, um, you know, the, the, the way I would describe Spotify, um, to people, you, you're right that it is scary sometimes watching Spotify, uh, f- trying to watch it from a distance and not just be in it because sometimes it's doing things where I'm like, "How did, how did people know that we were supposed to do it this way?" Um, and it would be how I would approach solving a problem, and it's kind of how, um, you know, we've internalized certain things. But the best way is it's 17 years old now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
And it is a teenager that's liberating itself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
So, it's not 100% me. Uh, in fact, it is this much broader, uh, different being. Uh, there are aspects of it that, um, hasn't taken after me, um, at all. In, um, product development, you know, Gustav is a formidable product leader, as an example, and Alex is a formidable business leader, and the two of them are now leading more of the day-to-day, and they're certainly instilling their personal, uh, values and their personal, uh, perspective of the, of the company too, which I think they're totally entitled to doing, having been with the company for 12-plus years, both of them. Um, but it, it is interesting seeing it because we're approaching things now in a way, uh, I wouldn't always do. It's not inconsistent with important principles of mine, but, but, uh, it's certainly not directed. And the other part is, I started this as a 23-year-old.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
And the 23-year-old Daniel, while many parts are the same, uh, the 40-year-old Daniel with, um, two kids, um, having seen that, have changed perspectives as well. Um, I have a different feeling about, uh, work and, and the importance of that in my life. Still very important, but may not be the sole or most important thing that I do, just to mention one. And so, it has similarities,
- 1:13:05 – 1:17:30
The Role of Culture in a Successful Business
- DEDaniel Ek
uh, but there's differences to me as an individual too, but I think if you compare me, the 23-year-old Daniel to 30-year-old Daniel to 40-year-old Daniel, um, I've evolved too, and, and candidly, I'm in that period at the moment where I'm perhaps trying to figure out who the 40-year-old Daniel really is because it's a different one than the 30-year-old one. Um, maybe it's subtleties, but, um, I think in quite a big way also, um, just thinking about something like culture, the 23-year-old Daniel, um, culture was having a ping-pong table. Uh, 30-year-old Daniel, uh, would have said, "Yeah, culture is important," but didn't really understand why. And the 40-year-old Daniel, uh, would be, um, you know, the 30-year-old Daniel would be more strategy than culture actually, and the 40-year-old Daniel is all about culture, almost to the point where strategy is, um, secondary, if not even tertiary to that. Um, and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
40-year-old Daniel is all about culture?
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah. Uh, way more so.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is the culture?
- DEDaniel Ek
Well, that's the amazing thing because it is the most scalable thing done right, uh, of a company, um, and it's the hardest thing, right? Because it is everything and nothing. It is every positive action that's happening in the company. It's every negative action in the company. Every person that's joining, every person that's leaving is impacting culture.And so, um, in its essence, I believe culture is about rewarding the positive behaviors you wanna see in the company, and obviously, dissuade the negative things you wanna see.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are the positive behaviors you wanna see?
- DEDaniel Ek
Well, one of them is taking risks, um, and failing. And how do you do that when you have 8 or 9,000 people inside of a company, responsibly? How do you, uh, when the common status quo is, we don't like failure, um, you don't get promoted based on failure. You get promoted based on being successful. Um, Annie Duke has this thinking in bets she talks about, I love that, is thinking about poker chips on the table, and, and she said one time when, when we spoke, she said to me is like, um, a company is like, um, uh, everyone has chips at the table, we just don't know how many we have. And so the people that have been successful have way more, so they have leniency and allowancy in the culture of any organizations to do more than someone who just started, um, and perhaps have a less- lesser ones. And if you failed enough times, what's naturally going to happen is that you won't have the same agency in a large organization to impact things too.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
So then the, the counterpoint to that would be, well, how, how do you then, um, create an environment where people, um, are allowed to take risks and then balance that with, say, a Spotify at this point, where we have a huge amount of responsibility too. We have tens of millions of creators that have their livelihood of the platform, so we can't just experiment with how we're paying out and so on and so forth, right? And there are 550 million consumers. Uh, we have to be responsible with their data. We can't, um, you know, put new things in front of them without testing them and so on and so forth. And so, um, there, there's this constant tension between, uh, being innovative, taking risks, um, and, um, you know, at the same time, obviously being responsible. And, and that's hard.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
But that's all about culture.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm absolutely obsessed with the subject of culture 'cause I really think it's an under- underappreciated factor in, um, in why businesses are the way they are. I think you could basically take a person off the street and the culture you drop them in determines the behavior you'll get from them.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And so, um... And having sat here and interviewed, like, Sir Alex Ferguson's ex-teammates-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you just come to learn that Sir Alex Ferguson's greatness wasn't strategy.
- DEDaniel Ek
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They all say to me... I remember Patrice Evra said to me that he walked in on a... We were playing Arsenal-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... on a Sunday in London.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And he walked in and just said, "Lads, listen. Beautiful weather outside. Don't fuck up my Sunday," and walked out.
- DEDaniel Ek
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because his thing was about management. He just had this culture.
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The other thing they said to me, which has always stayed with me, is Rio Ferdinand said to me, "How many times do you think he came into the training ground dressing room-"
- DEDaniel Ek
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... in 26 years?" Like, I don't know, he go- they said, "Twice."
- DEDaniel Ek
Really?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Didn't need to come in there. The culture was in there.
- 1:17:30 – 1:20:10
From Sports to Business: Daniel Ek on Fostering Collaborative Culture
- DEDaniel Ek
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it was self-policing when it's strong, right?
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah, yeah. But you're right. Sports teams, th- the, the ones that do really well, um, I was being told an Arsenal story that I probably can't share, but, um, w- m- you could see bits and pieces of Mikel's, um, you know, how he's pushing that team culture at the moment too, which seems very fascinating, uh, with some of the almost antics, uh, he seems to be doing this, uh, all or nothing-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDaniel Ek
... season that was, um, I think last season, um, as well. Um, so you can see that, and I love studying that with sports teams because, you know, it's 11 players on the pitch. How do, how do you make these people gel together, um, and form a team? Um, hugely important thing, so I agree. But, but also, like, imagine if you had 11 new players.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm. Man United (laughs)
- DEDaniel Ek
Uh, um, you know, can... Yeah, can you even form... Or Chelsea th- these days too.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah (laughs) .
- DEDaniel Ek
Right? Um, can you even, uh, uh, create a culture that way, uh, or is it something that should be done intentional? Um, I mean, if you're growing a company and growing the number of employees by 50% two years in a row, uh, most of your employees probably won't have been here even for a year.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, it will change things. Whereas if you make something where it's more of a gradual change, um, it will, uh, it's easier. I'm not saying it's th- trivial, but to r- to kind of have the same culture.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- DEDaniel Ek
Um, and I think many founders, uh, make that mistake when they over-hire. They don't understand the implication of culture. They just look at sort of more warm bodies, but it's all these other subtle things that starts breaking.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Daniel, we've got a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, and I love this question because, um, you don't like giving advice, so-
- DEDaniel Ek
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... this is a perfect one for you. Um, what is the advice that someone could have but didn't give you at 21 years old that would have made you more successful at the thing you now do?
- DEDaniel Ek
I, um... I think, uh, we s- we spoke about it. Um, I've gone through iterations of, uh, trying to learn from other people and model that. A huge part of that has been kind of, um, optimizing for my strengths and not covering my weaknesses, uh, and I wish, um, that I, um, realized much earlier on that perhaps my superpower is that I'm a pretty good all-arounder and not particularly good at anything. So, I used to think, for instance, that I had this brilliant,
- 1:20:10 – 1:23:55
Embrace Your Superpower: Daniel Ek's Advice for Entrepreneurs
- DEDaniel Ek
um... you know, I modeled myself on the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world, of like, "I need to run every product meeting. I need to be the best product person in the world." It just wasn't me, and it took me a while to realize that and be comfortable, um, saying that, right? Um, um, but, um, I, I have realized that I do like a lot of different things. I love learning about new things, and perhaps that is my superpower, uh, to-... but realize that, uh, the person who's doing PR, that's quite an interesting thing to learn about. Um, there are interesting things about employment law, how that came to be, and trying to understand that. And you ... The list goes on and on and on. And I love that, um, and I wish I would have probably understood that earlier about myself, because that would have allowed myself to, uh, not model so much on other people but, but, um, somehow, um, be more introspective and listen to myself.
Episode duration: 1:26:33
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