Starling CEO: Building a $1.5 Billion Business Against The Odds: Anne Boden | E107

1. 0:00 – 3:53

   Intro

   1. ABAnne Boden0:00

      It was humiliating reading in the press what had happened. I got fired twice in six months. Unless we could raise funding- I was never paid. ... there weren't going to be any jobs. And after six months, I just thought, "I can't work with this person." He had a tough time. Really damaging to me and my mental health. Tom didn't think I was capable. And so I resigned. Nothing was gonna stop Starling succeeding. People don't start banks, and if they do start a bank, they are probably a billionaire. When I started talking to people about, "I am gonna start a bank," you know, I could see people thinking I was totally crazy. I hadn't raised a penny. The only money that had gone into the business was my money. And he said, "No, I'm not gonna give you $3 million. I'm gonna give you 48." Now, I have the privilege of running Starling, and it is a privilege, and there's lots of things going wrong, and lots of pressures on me, but it's a great privilege to have.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:57

      (Music) If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you would have heard the episode I did with Tom Blomfield. He was the former CEO and founder of Monzo Bank, one of the big fintech disruptor banks here in the UK. And during that episode, he also tells us the story of his time at Starling Bank, the rival bank that he co-founded with Anne Boden. And that episode is dramatic, it should be a movie. They talk about their fallout. In the episode, Tom claims that Anne fired 16 members of staff in the same day. So in this episode, Anne wanted to come in to tell her side of the story, but also to tell her story. And it's an incredible story, it's an inspiring story, it's a story that doesn't quite make sense in the fact that she's achieved so much in an industry where she was an underdog, at an age when she also admits she is an underdog, confronting stereotypes that make her an underdog. And despite the odds being stacked against her, she's built a multi-billion dollar bank here in the UK. It really is a crazy story, one that I believe one day will be a Netflix show. Think about that, two people came together to take on the banking world, they came together and founded a bank called Starling Bank, they had this major blowup, they separated, Anne starts again, and they both build incredibly successful, multi-billion dollar banks individually. It is one hell of a story. It twists, it turns, and it inspires you. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (Music) Anne, humble beginnings. Do you think that's a accurate phrase to describe the start of your life?

   3. ABAnne Boden3:01

      Yeah, it was humble. Um, my, my father worked in the steelworks. Um, my father came ho- home from work with newspapers under his arm, all greasy from, you know, sort of doing hard work. My mum worked in the local department store, um, and we were happy.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett3:20

      Mm-hmm. Brothers and sisters?

   5. ABAnne Boden3:22

      No, only child. Um, my parents married late. My father came back from the Second World War, um, found, um, his dream wife, and they had a really, really happy marriage.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett3:35

      And school life, and...

   7. ABAnne Boden3:36

      Uh, I went to the local comprehensive school.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett3:38

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ABAnne Boden3:39

      Uh, it's a very, very new school. Um, I was brought up in my grandmother's house, my parents, my grandmother, in a older house in the edge of a big, big council estate.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett3:50

       Mm-hmm.

   11. ABAnne Boden3:51

       And in the middle of this

2. 3:53 – 11:57

   Humble beginnings

   1. ABAnne Boden3:53

      huge council estate, they'd built this new comprehensive school. And it was not a very good school, it was very new. I was one of the first children to go to university. And to be honest, there was a bit of a stigma from coming from that area and that school.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett4:11

      And you were, you were smart, right? 'Cause I, I know you went on to do computer science, and I know people that do computer science are smart arses.

   3. ABAnne Boden4:17

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett4:17

      So you were definitely smart, right?

   5. ABAnne Boden4:19

      Yeah. I think, um, I did most of my studying myself. The school, um, couldn't do a lot to help, to be honest. When I had my O levels, I think everybody was quite shocked by how well I'd done. Um, but I did most of my studying by, you know, buying my own textbooks and reading myself. And the house wasn't a, an academic home. My father left school at 15, uh, 14, my mother at 15, and there were no books at home except holiday brochures. Uh, we lived to go on holiday. We were a very, very happy family. We had a touring caravan-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett4:57

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ABAnne Boden4:57

      ... and we went all over Europe. Um, but it was very unusual for, um, a daughter of that home to be interested in studying.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett5:08

      Why?

   9. ABAnne Boden5:10

      Um, why I was studying or why it was unusual?

   10. SBSteven Bartlett5:14

       Why was it unusual for...

   11. ABAnne Boden5:15

       Yeah. I think the, um... My parents didn't push me. My parents believed... Were very liberal. You know, they, you know, all the kids of the neighborhood sort of hung out in our house. It was a very happy home. Um, we were very, very fortunate to have just, like, probably a little bit more money than everybody living around us. Um, but there was no emphasis on, on education. Um, that was something I did. You know, I went to the local academic book shop, and, and I remember sort of taking a book off the shelf, you know, what you do at 14. You know, what subjects do you choose? This was all mat- this was me choosing these things, not my parents.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett6:02

       And you were choosing those subjects because you, you enjoyed, you intrinsically enjoyed learning?... or because you wanted to become super wildly successful-

   13. ABAnne Boden6:13

       (laughs)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett6:13

       ... as a mega entrepreneur?

   15. ABAnne Boden6:14

       I wanted a job with a briefcase.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett6:17

       (laughs)

   17. ABAnne Boden6:17

       I wanted a job in an office. I didn't actually know anybody that worked in an office. Um, my inspiration was from television. It was very much seeing people on television and seeing the people had jobs in, in London, in glamorous places, were doing interesting things, and I could do that. And my parents were very supportive. They gave me as much money as I wanted to spend in the bookshop. Um, yeah, and then they, you know, went out and bought me, they bought me a 24-volume set of Encyclopedia Britannica. The only problem was, it was 1953 edition.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett6:57

       (laughs)

   19. ABAnne Boden6:57

       Right? So, all my knowledge was somewhat sort of outdated. But it was a great home, and we did interesting things. And I did well in school, and I went to university.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett7:08

       And at that point, I'm guessing you didn't have a huge, from what you've said, a desire to become an entrepreneur?

   21. ABAnne Boden7:13

       I never thought I'd ever be an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurship is something which is quite recent.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett7:20

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ABAnne Boden7:20

       You know, coming out to school, it was very much, I, I wanted a job that was scientific or, um, or interesting, where I could... I actually wanted to be a scientist. I actually wanted to be doing something with chemistry and computers, whatever. And my mum said to me, "You're gonna try for one normal job." You know, um, "Apply for a job in a bank." And I did, and the competition for the job was huge. There were thousands of people applying for a job at Lloyds Bank to be a computer, um, specialist, as a graduate computer specialist. And I got the job. So, when I got the job, I had to take it.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett8:03

       This is post-university?

   25. ABAnne Boden8:04

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett8:05

       Why did you choose computer science at university? And am I right in thinking, because it's still kind of the case now-

   27. ABAnne Boden8:11

       (laughs)

   28. SBSteven Bartlett8:11

       ... that that was a very male-dominated subject to choose?

   29. ABAnne Boden8:18

       Yeah, um, it was almost all men. Um, my father thought I could possibly be a metallurgist at the steelworks.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett8:28

       What's a metallurgist? For someone-
3. 11:57 – 25:32

   Entrepreneurship

   1. SBSteven Bartlett11:57

      corporate stuff and all the, the perks, remember, you can say "perks"?

   2. ABAnne Boden12:01

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett12:01

      All the perks, the s- stability, the security of the corporate world, and...

   4. ABAnne Boden12:06

      Yeah. Well, I was getting up every morning thinking, "Somebody has to do something about this banking industry." I was sort of ex- shamed to be a banker. I wasn't quite comfortable with it. And the banking industry was, you know, hadn't, hadn't embraced tech. You know, everything was changing, and the banking industry was looking backwards rather than forwards.And I started thinking, "Look, you know, I've got a bit of independence now. I can do whatever I want. Uh, I really like to do my own business, and perhaps I'll start a dress shop." Right? You know, I quite like fashion. You know, "Perhaps I'll do a dress shop."

   5. SBSteven Bartlett12:42

      Hmm.

   6. ABAnne Boden12:42

      And, (sighs) I realized I know nothing about fashion. I know a lot about banking, and what I should do is start a bank. And, but nobody ever starts banks. You know? (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett12:54

      Yeah, I was gonna say, that's not like a... No one goes from, "I'll do a dress shop, maybe a bank."

   8. ABAnne Boden12:58

      (laughs)

   9. SBSteven Bartlett12:58

      Like, people don't... (laughs)

   10. ABAnne Boden13:01

       Yeah. I, I, yeah, I, the only thing I knew about was banks and how banks are run. And, you know, people who start banks, well, they don't start banks. People don't start banks. And if they do start a bank, they are probably a billionaire.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett13:14

       Hmm.

   12. ABAnne Boden13:15

       And therefore, you know, I was very different. You know, and when I started talking to people about, you know, "I'm gonna start a bank," you know, I could see people thinking I was totally crazy.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett13:29

       Of course.

   14. ABAnne Boden13:31

       You know, first of all, people don't start banks, and a five-foot tall Welsh woman definitely doesn't start a bank.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett13:40

       Yes.

   16. ABAnne Boden13:41

       (laughs)

   17. SBSteven Bartlett13:41

       I mean, like, I hate to support the stereotypes, but I wouldn't start a bank, like, if, if, if I was a w- a, you know, 40-year-old billionaire white male that was six foot 10, let alone, you know, uh, a slightly shorter, uh, Welsh woman. Uh, so, y- just wanna be... 'Cause I really-

   18. ABAnne Boden13:57

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett13:57

       This is purely for my curiosity here, 'cause I'm trying to understand how you, like, you know, 'cause, yeah, I don't have the guts. So, um, you're 50, 50-odd years old.

   20. ABAnne Boden14:06

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett14:07

       You're currently in your corporate job.

   22. ABAnne Boden14:09

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett14:09

       And j- and whilst you're at the job, you start thinking about starting the bank?

   24. ABAnne Boden14:13

       Correct.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett14:14

       Okay. And at some point, you hand in your resignation. At what point did you hand in the resignation? Was it while you were still in the job and the bank had started moving? Or did you leave and then start, start, uh, putting in the foundations?

   26. ABAnne Boden14:26

       No, I, I decided very quickly. I left, um, and within weeks, I, I was working on the new proposition. Um, uh, it's only last weekend I started unpacking the boxes. I came back from Ireland. I was in Ireland, um, and I decided, you know, you know, get my notice in, you know, started the whole proposition, um, you know, booked the removal vans to bring me back over. And then, you know, put them in the house and immediately went out knocking on doors. Um, it's only now I'm finding some time to unpack those boxes.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett15:02

       Wow. How many years later?

   28. ABAnne Boden15:04

       Uh, seven years. (laughs)

   29. SBSteven Bartlett15:07

       Crikey.

   30. ABAnne Boden15:08

       (laughs)
4. 25:32 – 57:47

   Starting Starling bank & clashes with Tom at Monzo

   1. ABAnne Boden25:32

      them once I raised the money, but would they help me? Uh, and some of those big firms decided to back me. And lots of people in those firms took big personal risk, because most people in those big consulting firms thought that this was just a totally crazy idea, "She wants to take on Barclays? Ha, ha, ha. It'll never happen. No, no, let's try it. You know, we may learn something on the way. You know, sort of, she's got all these crazy ideas. You may be able to take them and sell them with two other customers. You know, let, let's just, just help her." And I must admit, I hung out in their customer lounges, uh, for years. (laughs)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett26:12

      Really?

   3. ABAnne Boden26:13

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett26:14

      Just chilling? Just-

   5. ABAnne Boden26:15

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett26:16

      Okay. Interesting. So you, you, you, you raised money in a slightly unconventional way considering the industry. Then you start calling people that you wanna hire from the banking world that you've met or...?

   7. ABAnne Boden26:27

      Yeah. I phone them up. Um, I've always been quite an unusual boss. I've always been quite, um, different to the people that I, you know, work with in other organizations. Uh, people tend to be quite loyal to me and I phone them up and say, um, "Yeah, I've got a great idea. We're gonna start this bank. Uh, do you fancy coming to work with me? Uh, and we'll raise some money." Whatever. And that's how the team got together.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett26:56

      So the, the, the who was in the core team?

   9. ABAnne Boden26:59

      Yeah. Okay. So there's, there was a couple of core teams. Okay? There was the, the first core team was the bunch that eventually went to, to found Monzo.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett27:08

       Tom's-

   11. ABAnne Boden27:09

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett27:09

       ... which you wrote about in the book and Tom's been here.

   13. ABAnne Boden27:10

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett27:11

       So the, that was the first cohort.

   15. ABAnne Boden27:13

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett27:14

       Yeah.

   17. ABAnne Boden27:14

       And then Tom left-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett27:16

       Yeah.

   19. ABAnne Boden27:16

       ... uh, with the team.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett27:18

       Mm-hmm.

   21. ABAnne Boden27:18

       And I started again. I started again in exactly the same way, phoning people up and say, "Yep. I'm still trying to start this bank. You know, please, please come and help me."

   22. SBSteven Bartlett27:32

       So Tom, in particular. Tom obviously sat here. He did the podcast-

   23. ABAnne Boden27:35

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett27:35

       ... which I'm sure you've heard. And you've written about, um-

   25. ABAnne Boden27:37

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett27:37

       ... Tom in the book as well. How did you come to meet Tom?

   27. ABAnne Boden27:41

       I met Tom at a dinner.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett27:43

       Right.

   29. ABAnne Boden27:43

       I, I met Tom at a dinner in 2011, uh, when he was working the GoCardless and I, I spotted him as being a very clever, funny, charismatic individual, uh, that was running a business. And we kept in touch.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett28:03

       So when you started Starling you needed a... Wa- was it a CTO? He came on as a CTO?
5. 57:47 – 1:05:40

   Raising funding

   1. ABAnne Boden57:47

      them, and I wasn't gonna talk to people I didn't know. Anyway, I ended up going on a, getting on a plane to the Bahamas.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett57:54

      Oh, that's when you know they're rich.

   3. ABAnne Boden57:56

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett57:57

      It was a yacht, wasn't it?

   5. ABAnne Boden57:58

      It was a yacht. And, uh, spent three days being interrogated by a, a gentleman called Harold McPike, uh, who is an algorithic- algorithmic trader. Um, and, uh, he, he asked me the most complex questions that anybody had ever asked. He was really into the detail. And yes, uh, at half past four, um, I joined him on his yacht. And I think-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett58:31

      How big was this yacht?

   7. ABAnne Boden58:32

      It's a big yacht.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett58:33

      More of a ship.

   9. ABAnne Boden58:34

      It was a big yacht.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett58:35

       Okay.

   11. ABAnne Boden58:36

       Uh, and, uh, yeah, he asked me lots and lots of questions about me, about the business, and he was very, very detailed. And at 11:15 in the evening, he offered me 48 million pounds for 66% of the company.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett58:59

       66%?

   13. ABAnne Boden59:00

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett59:03

       I read that he said, he, he said something to you like, uh, "I'm not gonna give you the 3 million."

   15. ABAnne Boden59:08

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett59:08

       And then-

   17. ABAnne Boden59:08

       I was trying to raise 3 million, okay?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett59:10

       Right.

   19. ABAnne Boden59:10

       I was trying to raise 3 million. That's all I needed, was 3 million to get to getting the, the banking license. So the idea was to raise 3 million and then 15 million, then 30 million. I only wanted the 3 million. I hadn't raised a penny. The only money that had gone into the business was my money.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett59:26

       Mm-hmm.

   21. ABAnne Boden59:27

       So I, it was impossible to raise money. Uh, and he said, yeah, so he said, "No, I'm not gonna give you 3 million. I'm gonna give you 48."

   22. SBSteven Bartlett59:37

       Christ, that's like Chris Tarrant from He Wants To Be A Millionaire. That's mad. 40... And how did you feel? So there's two real things here. That's a huge amount of money, but that's also 66% of your business.

   23. ABAnne Boden59:48

       Hmm. Tough. And at that particular point, you know that all the other things that you're working on, all the other leads are gonna, gonna go.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:01

       Yeah.

   25. ABAnne Boden1:00:01

       You may have 40, 50 different leads you're working on. Uh, you gonna accept this offer and sort of somebody else now controls the company? But with 48 million, you have a situation where you can build the tech, best tech in the world. So, you know, I've been doing this for two years and it was really difficult. And I had somebody who really understood what I was gonna do, was super intelligent, that actually believed in my conviction I could do this. But I was have to give up 66%, but it would mean that I could build something that nobody else had ever built.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:53

       I mean, in that moment, he's valuing what is, and correct me if I'm wrong here, essentially an idea.

   27. ABAnne Boden1:01:02

       Yeah. It was a 16-page deck.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:06

       He's valuing a 16-page deck at 72 million.

   29. ABAnne Boden1:01:12

       (exhales)

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:13

       How long did you have to think about that decision?
6. 1:05:40 – 1:12:29

   What have you learnt about raising investment?

   1. ABAnne Boden1:05:41

      And the really great ideas don't get that investment. And really great ideas from women founders don't get great inv- don't get significant investment.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:52

      Hm. (clears throat) Interesting. But there's a lot of money out there, isn't there?

   3. ABAnne Boden1:05:57

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:58

      That's what I, I've come to learn, is-

   5. ABAnne Boden1:05:59

      Yeah, I think it's-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:59

      ... there is a lot of money out there.

   7. ABAnne Boden1:06:00

      There's a lot of money out there when you're successful.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:03

      Right.

   9. ABAnne Boden1:06:03

      Starling now is, I- is a big business, 1,600 people, two and a half million accounts, um, doing interesting things, um, we have a reputation, um, but the fact that, you know, and occasionally, you know, they publish how much money in the UK has gone to women founders and it's, a lot of it's gone to me. (laughs)

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:31

       (laughs)

   11. ABAnne Boden1:06:32

       Okay? (laughs) Okay. Um, so, so I, I think we have to be very realistic that you get to a point where you're a success and people then want to invest. But the majority of the time at Starling, it's been really tough.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:49

       It's been really tough. So what do, when you reflect on your corporate career and you contrast it and compare it to your entrepreneurial career, what was the really surprising tough part on a personal level? And this is really why I started this podcast, you know?

   13. ABAnne Boden1:07:05

       Yeah. Mm-hmm. (clears throat) The-All jobs are tough. A corporate job is very tough. I think that being an entrepreneur, it's far more personal responsibility. As an entrepreneur, there's nobody that m- that, uh, in all the hiring decisions, um, somehow ended up with you making that first hiring decision. You know, we have 1,600 people, but those, you know, somewhere up in the chain, I hired one of those people, right-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:36

       Mm-hmm.

   15. ABAnne Boden1:07:36

       ... that made that hiring choice. Um, anything that goes wrong is, is my responsibility, um, and all mistakes are probably down to me. Okay? (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:45

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ABAnne Boden1:07:45

       So there's a lot of personal responsibility. And that responsibility gets more and more as more and more people depend on it. But isn't it fantastic?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:59

       (laughs)

   19. ABAnne Boden1:07:59

       Isn't it a wonderful buzz? Isn't it, isn't it wonderful t- to, (sighs) to have a platform, really? I, (sighs) I fundamentally believe that financial institutions lost their way and Starling is doing the right thing. And somehow, people have said to me that I've created the organization that I wanted to run, because I quite like running organizations, and I wanted to do things in a different sort of way. So finally, I'm running the organization that I've been wanting to run for the last 35 years.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:40

       And that you wished exist as, is-

   21. ABAnne Boden1:08:42

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:42

       ... existed as a customer.

   23. ABAnne Boden1:08:43

       Yeah. I think that, you know, I've been very lucky. I, I've always had a great relationship with money. I ... But the vast majority of people in this world have a bad relationship with money. It doesn't go well for them. And, you know, they deserve a better bank. I went into banking, you know, because I wanted to do interesting things, I wanted to come to London, and I wanted to be in tech. But I also wanted to do something that was respectable, worthwhile, doing the right thing by people. And banks stopped doing that. And I'm much more comfortable being accountable for the organization that is Starling.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:33

       And it helped you to, um, I guess, alleviate that taxi cab shame you-

   25. ABAnne Boden1:09:38

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:38

       ... reference where a taxi driver-

   27. ABAnne Boden1:09:40

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:40

       ... asks you what you do, and you don't wanna say, "Banker," because there's so much stigma and shame around-

   29. ABAnne Boden1:09:45

       Yeah. Hm.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:45

       ... the sector.
7. 1:12:29 – 1:20:26

   Managing your emotions when running a bank

   1. ABAnne Boden1:12:29

      well and things are going badly. Um, it takes huge amount of energy, and sometimes they're listening to calls. And it really impresses me how young people, you know, who are new to their careers, who, um, are so empathetic, are so in touch with real people and really helping them. You know, I take my hat off to them.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:51

      What do you do to protect yourself mentally from the chaos of running such a big business that has such a, you know, is dealing with such a sensitive topic for people? What do you ... How do you protect yourself from not losing your sanity?

   3. ABAnne Boden1:13:11

      I had a great mentor in this. My father. My father, um, was brought up in a home where, um, his father was in the First World War, and he came back from the First World War with, um, what you now call post-traumatic stress syndrome. And they didn't call it that then. They called it, you know, shell shock. And he, he was brought up in that home where his father was... Had good days and bad days, and things were quite fragile. But he had... My father had a great way of talking about feelings and emotions, and what you do to talk yourself up, and, and how you make yourself happy. And we had a home where we talked about this, and how you counted your blessings. I mean, we weren't religious at all, but how you, how you... (sighs) How you took energy from what's going right rather than what's going wrong. And he was a great mentor. He taught me this, and I think the dedication in my book is all about, you know, thanking my parents for teaching me that happiness, uh, is something that you can cultivate and treasure, because not everybody has it. And I think when I am in a sort of situation where things are tough, you can do things to change the chatter in your head, to realize that you're not the center of attention. You know, sometimes, you know, it's not about me. You know, not ev- not everybody's looking at me. Everybody's looking at their own life and thinking about their own problems. And I am very, very fortunate. I have a huge number of things that are going right for me, and I have the privilege of running Starling. And it is a privilege, and there's lots of things going wrong, and lots of pressures on me, but it's a great privilege to have.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:19

      So do you see that as a... Your, your sort of coping mechanism there as a almost like a, almost like a childhood disposition that was taught to you? Like it's a, a perspective that kind of defaults to optimism. Seeing that the glasses are full, defaulting to gratitude. That's kind of acted as a protective...

   5. ABAnne Boden1:15:37

      Yeah, I think it is. I'm still quite excited by it all. Right. So coming here today, I was excited.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:43

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ABAnne Boden1:15:43

      Right? This is-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:43

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ABAnne Boden1:15:44

      This is something which is... Look, I am ever so fortunate to be a person who's doing what I'm doing, to talking to you. That's gonna be broadcast. This is exciting.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:56

       Mm-hmm.

   11. ABAnne Boden1:15:56

       Uh, when I come back into London, you know, I'm driving back into London late at night and, you know, and I'm going through this city, I'm, I'm still excited. I'm like a kid that's coming to London for the first time. This is an exciting things to do. I'm... Yeah, I'm loving it all.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:17

       Hmm. Such a strange question to ask, but, um, that is somewhat unusual, it feels. It feels like... Well, is it? Maybe it's just because (laughs) -

   13. ABAnne Boden1:16:32

       (laughs)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:33

       ... the oth- (laughs) the conversation I had previously was so... You know, like the red phone by the bed Tom described, you know, on my floor.

   15. ABAnne Boden1:16:38

       Yeah, I have a phone by the bed and it never leaves the, the... Yeah, the phone is by the bed all the time.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:44

       And that's the like, the emergency, call me if there's a crisis phone.

   17. ABAnne Boden1:16:47

       Yeah. But that's the job I get paid for.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:50

       Mm-hmm.

   19. ABAnne Boden1:16:51

       But there's a huge thing... There's a... There's a huge amount of things that come with this job. You know, I... You know, I appear up in front of the Treasury Select Committee and get grilled. I'm... You know, I have this sort of grilling from you.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:05

       Mm-hmm.

   21. ABAnne Boden1:17:05

       I, I, I... (sighs) I can talk to interesting people. I have the opportunity of building something I've always wanted. That's a huge, huge privilege.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:18

       Hmm. I really think that's a really underestimated defense mechanism against life, is if your default position is to view the, you know, to count your blessings, as you say, and view the half as glass full, then it's, it's harder to slip into the trap of, um, uh, "My expectations are being unmet because of the difficulties of my life." And a lot of what we've discovered from this... Talking to guests on this podcast are when your expectations of how the world is meant to be going go unmet, then you f- slip away into unhappiness and misery. And yeah, you seem to have a, a default to gratitude essentially-

   23. ABAnne Boden1:17:53

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:53

       ... which is-

   25. ABAnne Boden1:17:54

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:54

       ... causing a very mentally sort of protective... Have you ever been to therapy? Have you ever had like any professional support in that regard?

   27. ABAnne Boden1:18:00

       No.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:00

       No?

   29. ABAnne Boden1:18:01

       I read a lot.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:03

       Hmm. That's good.
8. 1:20:26 – 1:25:45

   Work life balance - maintaining relationships

   1. ABAnne Boden1:20:26

      I get asked about it occasionally. And brave people ask me about it.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:30

      Yeah, yeah.

   3. ABAnne Boden1:20:30

      You know, people who are not brave trying to go round it.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:33

      Mm-hmm.

   5. ABAnne Boden1:20:33

      Um, yeah. You know, but one day, perhaps I will marry. You never know.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:38

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ABAnne Boden1:20:39

      You know, the right man may come along. Um, it's unlikely to happen with children.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:45

      I always struggled in... when I was running my business, to have any kind of relationship with anybody.

   9. ABAnne Boden1:20:50

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:50

       I was a total failure 'cause I was obsessed, as you say, like work-life balance. It was just all work. I was in the office-

   11. ABAnne Boden1:20:55

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:55

       ... Saturday and Sunday. And I found it incredibly hard to find someone that understood the peculiarity of my life dynamic. It was only upon leaving that business that I actually managed to, like, you know, m- like, higgle something together. Like, higgle the... you know, like put some pieces together, which is probably resembles a relationship now. But, um, uh-

   13. ABAnne Boden1:21:18

       It's very difficult finding a man who's prepared to listen to me going on about my career for three hours.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:25

       Hmm.

   15. ABAnne Boden1:21:26

       (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:27

       We've had... It's not... No, we've had a lot of guests come here that are, you know, female founders that have said a very similar thing.

   17. ABAnne Boden1:21:33

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:33

       And also, an interesting narrative, which I, I wanna talk about, which is, like, men can be emasculated. Uh, th- is this true? I... You know, uh, Chrissie came here, and she's a, she's a successful founder, and she said that, yeah, like, uh, uh, um, men can be emasculated by the success of a, a woman if she's, like, bringing home the bacon or if she's, you know, the career-driven one. Uh, do you find this to be true?

   19. ABAnne Boden1:21:56

       Well, I... You know, I've had a lot of coaching from friends before going out on a date and going, "For goodness' sake, Ann, don't ask for the bill, okay? For goodness' sake, Ann, don't... you know, don't leave the table to answer a call, right?" So-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:08

       (laughs) Goodness' sake.

   21. ABAnne Boden1:22:09

       You've got, like, a really, really good deal coming up. "No, no, no, no, this is how it works, Ann, okay? You go on a date, and you pretend he's, he's, he's awesome, and you don't go off and answer your phone, and you don't try and pay the bill, okay? That's how it works." That how it works for most people. But, you know, sometimes work is more important.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:31

       Wow. (laughs) Oh, God. And you... I... You... I read somewhere as well that you said that you could write a separate book about your dating-

   23. ABAnne Boden1:22:43

       Yeah, yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:44

       ... dating, uh, experiences.

   25. ABAnne Boden1:22:46

       Yeah, done a lot of that. Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:47

       Done a lot of dating. Um-

   27. ABAnne Boden1:22:49

       Doesn't work.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:50

       Doesn't work.

   29. ABAnne Boden1:22:51

       Doesn't work.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:52

       And you, you, you pinpoint the way that you are in terms of your, like... your focuses, your ambitions, your pers-... you know, all of that stuff, as making it difficult. That's the thing that makes it difficult.
9. 1:25:45 – 1:30:59

   Key advice you would told your younger self

   1. ABAnne Boden1:25:45

      myself. You know, I'm... I'm not ready to quit. This is... I'm on a roll. (laughs)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:57

      (laughs) And you must have had some offers, right?

   3. ABAnne Boden1:25:59

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:59

      'Cause, you know, a couple of people coming along saying-

   5. ABAnne Boden1:26:01

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:02

      ... brown envelope, 100 mil.

   7. ABAnne Boden1:26:04

      (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:04

      See you later. No?

   9. ABAnne Boden1:26:06

      It's... Look, uh, it's a unique opportunity. You know, imagine, put yourself in my shoes. 1981, I came to London to start my career in banking and rocked up at Lloyds Bank as a graduate trainee. Nowadays, you know, I'm, I'm running an important bank in the UK. And I founded this bank.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:33

       Mm-hmm.

   11. ABAnne Boden1:26:33

       And it's much better than the incumbent banks and it's at the start of its sort of 300 years rather than at the end of it. Yeah, it's incredibly exciting. Um, yeah, I have to pinch myself. It's really happening.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:49

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you know what? It, it's, it's truly remarkable. And that you're right. I did give you a grilling there a bit on, on a lot of the, the key points.

   13. ABAnne Boden1:26:56

       (laughs)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:56

       Because there is, you know, there is such a interesting banking narrat- banking war narrative going on in the fintech space at the moment.

   15. ABAnne Boden1:27:02

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:02

       And, but, you know, the overarching thing is just, you know, I find your story to be just so incredible. And I find it to be, like, genuinely unbelievable because you say it in such an effortless way. You say, you talk about these events and y- even the fundraising stuff and, you know, the stereotypes of being a female founder, um, that doesn't fit the e- existing stereotypes of tech bros out in Silicon Valley that are all, like, 21 from Harvard and they're all dropouts. And to persevere against it all, I suspect is significantly, maybe 10X harder than you actually make out. Because, like, I know how hard it is anyway.

   17. ABAnne Boden1:27:37

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:37

       But then when the, the deck is stacked against you in, uh, the ways that I, I know it, it is because I, I under- understand stereotypes and the, the climate and especially in the banking world. Like, what kind of lunatic starts a bank, right? And I, I was, I was fortunate enough to be slightly privy to some of the early processes of, like, getting a ban- banking application because we had a lot of fintech startups, including banks like Monzo approach us very early and ask us to help with the marketing.

   19. ABAnne Boden1:28:03

       Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:04

       So, and I, and then, and when I was sitting in the rooms maybe five, six years ago, they're all talking about eventually getting their banking licenses or something.

   21. ABAnne Boden1:28:13

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:13

       And, uh, that corner was turned eventually. But it's just remarkable and it's unbelievable. And there's very few entrepreneurs in the UK or really anywhere in the world that I've encountered that really managed to y- take on a really stubborn incumbent in the, in th- as it relates to the banking industry here. Spotify is one of the examples I sometimes think of.

   23. ABAnne Boden1:28:34

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:34

       'Cause, you know, there's no way you could make, you know, move, move away the rights and the music rights and move it to digital and then charge people. Like, so that is, that again, I, I consider Daniel Ek to be a lunatic.

   25. ABAnne Boden1:28:46

       Oh. Oh.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:46

       But-

   27. ABAnne Boden1:28:46

       Yeah. Incredible.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:48

       Yeah. It's, uh, I've considered this to be the same. So yeah, thank you for the inspiration. Thank you for the courage. And I think your story is one of, you know, it's one in, you know, 100 million. I do have one request though.

   29. ABAnne Boden1:28:59

       Okay.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:59

       And this is where the diary comes in.
10. 1:30:59 – 1:31:10

    Our last guests question

    1. ABAnne Boden1:30:59

       had a very, very different life to me. And by an accident of birth, we experience a very, very different life.

Episode duration: 1:32:02