Starling CEO: Building a $1.5 Billion Business Against The Odds: Anne Boden | E107

Anne Boden 0:00 It was humiliating reading in the press what had happened. I got fired twice in six months. Unless we could raise funding- I was never paid. ... there weren't going to be any jobs. And after six months, I just thought, "I can't work with this person." He had a tough time. Really damaging to me and my mental health. Tom didn't think I was capable. And so I resigned. Nothing was gonna stop Starling succeeding. People don't start banks, and if they do start a bank, they are probably a billionaire. When I started talking to people about, "I am gonna start a bank," you know, I could see people thinking I was totally crazy. I hadn't raised a penny. The only money that had gone into the business was my money. And he said, "No, I'm not gonna give you $3 million. I'm gonna give you 48." Now, I have the privilege of running Starling, and it is a privilege, and there's lots of things going wrong, and lots of pressures on me, but it's a great privilege to have.

Steven Bartlett 0:57 (Music) If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you would have heard the episode I did with Tom Blomfield. He was the former CEO and founder of Monzo Bank, one of the big fintech disruptor banks here in the UK. And during that episode, he also tells us the story of his time at Starling Bank, the rival bank that he co-founded with Anne Boden. And that episode is dramatic, it should be a movie. They talk about their fallout. In the episode, Tom claims that Anne fired 16 members of staff in the same day. So in this episode, Anne wanted to come in to tell her side of the story, but also to tell her story. And it's an incredible story, it's an inspiring story, it's a story that doesn't quite make sense in the fact that she's achieved so much in an industry where she was an underdog, at an age when she also admits she is an underdog, confronting stereotypes that make her an underdog. And despite the odds being stacked against her, she's built a multi-billion dollar bank here in the UK. It really is a crazy story, one that I believe one day will be a Netflix show. Think about that, two people came together to take on the banking world, they came together and founded a bank called Starling Bank, they had this major blowup, they separated, Anne starts again, and they both build incredibly successful, multi-billion dollar banks individually. It is one hell of a story. It twists, it turns, and it inspires you. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (Music) Anne, humble beginnings. Do you think that's a accurate phrase to describe the start of your life?

Anne Boden 3:01 Yeah, it was humble. Um, my, my father worked in the steelworks. Um, my father came ho- home from work with newspapers under his arm, all greasy from, you know, sort of doing hard work. My mum worked in the local department store, um, and we were happy.

Steven Bartlett 3:20 Mm-hmm. Brothers and sisters?

Anne Boden 3:22 No, only child. Um, my parents married late. My father came back from the Second World War, um, found, um, his dream wife, and they had a really, really happy marriage.

Steven Bartlett 3:35 And school life, and...

Anne Boden 3:36 Uh, I went to the local comprehensive school.

Steven Bartlett 3:38 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 3:39 Uh, it's a very, very new school. Um, I was brought up in my grandmother's house, my parents, my grandmother, in a older house in the edge of a big, big council estate.

Steven Bartlett 3:50 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 3:51 And in the middle of this

Anne Boden 3:53 huge council estate, they'd built this new comprehensive school. And it was not a very good school, it was very new. I was one of the first children to go to university. And to be honest, there was a bit of a stigma from coming from that area and that school.

Steven Bartlett 4:11 And you were, you were smart, right? 'Cause I, I know you went on to do computer science, and I know people that do computer science are smart arses.

Anne Boden 4:17 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 4:17 So you were definitely smart, right?

Anne Boden 4:19 Yeah. I think, um, I did most of my studying myself. The school, um, couldn't do a lot to help, to be honest. When I had my O levels, I think everybody was quite shocked by how well I'd done. Um, but I did most of my studying by, you know, buying my own textbooks and reading myself. And the house wasn't a, an academic home. My father left school at 15, uh, 14, my mother at 15, and there were no books at home except holiday brochures. Uh, we lived to go on holiday. We were a very, very happy family. We had a touring caravan-

Steven Bartlett 4:57 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 4:57 ... and we went all over Europe. Um, but it was very unusual for, um, a daughter of that home to be interested in studying.

Steven Bartlett 5:08 Why?

Anne Boden 5:10 Um, why I was studying or why it was unusual?

Steven Bartlett 5:14 Why was it unusual for...

Anne Boden 5:15 Yeah. I think the, um... My parents didn't push me. My parents believed... Were very liberal. You know, they, you know, all the kids of the neighborhood sort of hung out in our house. It was a very happy home. Um, we were very, very fortunate to have just, like, probably a little bit more money than everybody living around us. Um, but there was no emphasis on, on education. Um, that was something I did. You know, I went to the local academic book shop, and, and I remember sort of taking a book off the shelf, you know, what you do at 14. You know, what subjects do you choose? This was all mat- this was me choosing these things, not my parents.

Steven Bartlett 6:02 And you were choosing those subjects because you, you enjoyed, you intrinsically enjoyed learning?... or because you wanted to become super wildly successful-

Anne Boden 6:13 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 6:13 ... as a mega entrepreneur?

Anne Boden 6:14 I wanted a job with a briefcase.

Steven Bartlett 6:17 (laughs)

Anne Boden 6:17 I wanted a job in an office. I didn't actually know anybody that worked in an office. Um, my inspiration was from television. It was very much seeing people on television and seeing the people had jobs in, in London, in glamorous places, were doing interesting things, and I could do that. And my parents were very supportive. They gave me as much money as I wanted to spend in the bookshop. Um, yeah, and then they, you know, went out and bought me, they bought me a 24-volume set of Encyclopedia Britannica. The only problem was, it was 1953 edition.

Steven Bartlett 6:57 (laughs)

Anne Boden 6:57 Right? So, all my knowledge was somewhat sort of outdated. But it was a great home, and we did interesting things. And I did well in school, and I went to university.

Steven Bartlett 7:08 And at that point, I'm guessing you didn't have a huge, from what you've said, a desire to become an entrepreneur?

Anne Boden 7:13 I never thought I'd ever be an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurship is something which is quite recent.

Steven Bartlett 7:20 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 7:20 You know, coming out to school, it was very much, I, I wanted a job that was scientific or, um, or interesting, where I could... I actually wanted to be a scientist. I actually wanted to be doing something with chemistry and computers, whatever. And my mum said to me, "You're gonna try for one normal job." You know, um, "Apply for a job in a bank." And I did, and the competition for the job was huge. There were thousands of people applying for a job at Lloyds Bank to be a computer, um, specialist, as a graduate computer specialist. And I got the job. So, when I got the job, I had to take it.

Steven Bartlett 8:03 This is post-university?

Anne Boden 8:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:05 Why did you choose computer science at university? And am I right in thinking, because it's still kind of the case now-

Anne Boden 8:11 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 8:11 ... that that was a very male-dominated subject to choose?

Anne Boden 8:18 Yeah, um, it was almost all men. Um, my father thought I could possibly be a metallurgist at the steelworks.

Steven Bartlett 8:28 What's a metallurgist? For someone-

Anne Boden 8:30 Stu- you know, studies metals-

Steven Bartlett 8:31 Okay. (laughs)

Anne Boden 8:32 ... (laughs) how metals are, are made.

Steven Bartlett 8:34 Right.

Anne Boden 8:34 Um, yeah. Um, but there was no, (sighs) there was no concept of home of jobs for women or jobs for men. Um, that didn't really exist. I came from a home where my mother was very capable and my grandmother was very capable. So, me becoming a computer scientist and going to, um, Swansea University to study where they were all men wasn't something that really phased me.

Steven Bartlett 8:59 And you go off to, to university, you study computer science, you do pretty well at university, I'm guessing?

Anne Boden 9:04 Yeah, okay.

Steven Bartlett 9:05 Yeah, you did great, I'm sure. Uh-

Anne Boden 9:07 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 9:07 ... and then you get, get this job at Lloyds Bank in the, in the graduate program, and you were there for how long?

Anne Boden 9:12 Uh, four and a half years. I did four and a half years before I quit.

Steven Bartlett 9:17 Oh, really? Is that a-

Anne Boden 9:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:18 ...

Narrator 9:18 (laughs)

Anne Boden 9:18 ... I'd, I had a four-and-a-half-year thing going on.

Steven Bartlett 9:21 Right.

Anne Boden 9:21 So, I was four and a half years at Lloyds Bank, um, you know, great job. You know, so, you know, did the branch thing, did all the jobs. Uh, and then, uh, my first boss told me, "You better tone down your aspirations; otherwise, you'll get very, very frustrated."

Steven Bartlett 9:39 Ooh.

Anne Boden 9:40 Ooh, and that didn't work with me. I was really, really determined that I was gonna get on. So, I did four and a half years at Lloyds Bank. I did five years at Standard Chartered Bank. I did three and a half years at Price Waterhouse, uh, studying banks and advising banks. And, uh, I went to UBS, uh, in, uh, in, in the City and then out to Switzerland, five years out in Switzerland working for a big bank. I joined a big insurance company, worked all over the world, worked in Chicago a bit, uh, and then joined a bank in Amsterdam, ABN AMRO, um, worked in all sorts of places from Kazakhstan to Uzbekistan to all the places around the world. Yeah, I quit again. Uh, spent some time in fintech before going into Allied Irish Banks as chief operating officer.

Steven Bartlett 10:33 So, that, that stint across all of those different banks that you worked in, across all of these different territories, how long was that in total?

Anne Boden 10:41 Uh, oh, ph-

Steven Bartlett 10:42 Before you came into fintech?

Anne Boden 10:42 ... 30-odd years.

Steven Bartlett 10:43 Really?

Anne Boden 10:43 So, I did, yeah, mm, yeah, I started in 1981, and I, I quit to become an entrepreneur, um, in 2014.

Steven Bartlett 10:57 That's very atypical.

Anne Boden 11:00 Oh, yeah. It's a- it's very, very unusual. I've also done different things in the jobs. I keep meeting people, and people go, "I know an Ann Boden. She worked in insurance."

Steven Bartlett 11:10 (laughs)

Anne Boden 11:11 And I go, "Uh, that's me?" And they go, "No, no, no, no, there's a whole, there's an Ann Boden, and she worked in, in... She's a computer scientist. She did computing things." Uh, "No, no, that, that's me." Um, so I've had a long career doing lots of different things in different companies, but I was a corporate person.

Steven Bartlett 11:30 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 11:30 When I quit to become an entrepreneur, that was something I'd never done.

Steven Bartlett 11:37 And did you consciously make the decision that "I don't want to do the corporate life stuff anymore, I want to start my own business and give it a shot?" And when you did that, what age were you?

Anne Boden 11:50 54.

Steven Bartlett 11:51 At 54 years old, you decided that you wanna go it alone and give up all of that

Steven Bartlett 11:57 corporate stuff and all the, the perks, remember, you can say "perks"?

Anne Boden 12:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:01 All the perks, the s- stability, the security of the corporate world, and...

Anne Boden 12:06 Yeah. Well, I was getting up every morning thinking, "Somebody has to do something about this banking industry." I was sort of ex- shamed to be a banker. I wasn't quite comfortable with it. And the banking industry was, you know, hadn't, hadn't embraced tech. You know, everything was changing, and the banking industry was looking backwards rather than forwards.And I started thinking, "Look, you know, I've got a bit of independence now. I can do whatever I want. Uh, I really like to do my own business, and perhaps I'll start a dress shop." Right? You know, I quite like fashion. You know, "Perhaps I'll do a dress shop."

Steven Bartlett 12:42 Hmm.

Anne Boden 12:42 And, (sighs) I realized I know nothing about fashion. I know a lot about banking, and what I should do is start a bank. And, but nobody ever starts banks. You know? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 12:54 Yeah, I was gonna say, that's not like a... No one goes from, "I'll do a dress shop, maybe a bank."

Anne Boden 12:58 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 12:58 Like, people don't... (laughs)

Anne Boden 13:01 Yeah. I, I, yeah, I, the only thing I knew about was banks and how banks are run. And, you know, people who start banks, well, they don't start banks. People don't start banks. And if they do start a bank, they are probably a billionaire.

Steven Bartlett 13:14 Hmm.

Anne Boden 13:15 And therefore, you know, I was very different. You know, and when I started talking to people about, you know, "I'm gonna start a bank," you know, I could see people thinking I was totally crazy.

Steven Bartlett 13:29 Of course.

Anne Boden 13:31 You know, first of all, people don't start banks, and a five-foot tall Welsh woman definitely doesn't start a bank.

Steven Bartlett 13:40 Yes.

Anne Boden 13:41 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 13:41 I mean, like, I hate to support the stereotypes, but I wouldn't start a bank, like, if, if, if I was a w- a, you know, 40-year-old billionaire white male that was six foot 10, let alone, you know, uh, a slightly shorter, uh, Welsh woman. Uh, so, y- just wanna be... 'Cause I really-

Anne Boden 13:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:57 This is purely for my curiosity here, 'cause I'm trying to understand how you, like, you know, 'cause, yeah, I don't have the guts. So, um, you're 50, 50-odd years old.

Anne Boden 14:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:07 You're currently in your corporate job.

Anne Boden 14:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:09 And j- and whilst you're at the job, you start thinking about starting the bank?

Anne Boden 14:13 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 14:14 Okay. And at some point, you hand in your resignation. At what point did you hand in the resignation? Was it while you were still in the job and the bank had started moving? Or did you leave and then start, start, uh, putting in the foundations?

Anne Boden 14:26 No, I, I decided very quickly. I left, um, and within weeks, I, I was working on the new proposition. Um, uh, it's only last weekend I started unpacking the boxes. I came back from Ireland. I was in Ireland, um, and I decided, you know, you know, get my notice in, you know, started the whole proposition, um, you know, booked the removal vans to bring me back over. And then, you know, put them in the house and immediately went out knocking on doors. Um, it's only now I'm finding some time to unpack those boxes.

Steven Bartlett 15:02 Wow. How many years later?

Anne Boden 15:04 Uh, seven years. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:07 Crikey.

Anne Boden 15:08 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:09 So you, you leave. You start knocking on doors. Uh, h- how did you feel emotionally when you leave the, the corporate system and you hand in your resignation and you know you're going, but you don't have your next move, like, solidified yet? You're still building that thing, you know? They describe entrepreneurship as throwing yourself off the cliff and, like, building the paraglider as you fall. How did you feel emotionally at that phase?

Anne Boden 15:31 I think you have to cope with the fact that you no longer have that bi- that business card. You no longer, longer have a title. Um, and, you know, I thought it was gonna be relatively easy to raise money for Starling Bank. You know, sort of, yes, and, you know, sort of, I've raised money in a, in a job before. I could knock on a few doors, and they would give me the money I needed. It was incredibly difficult. I, you know, going into lots of offices basically saying, "I have this great idea, okay? Um, it's an awesome idea. I'm gonna build a bank like no other bank. Uh, we're gonna build the technology from scratch. Um, it's gonna be really fair to customers. They're gonna have a whole new way of engaging with the people that it served. And, and I'm gonna take market share off Barclays and HSBC and Lloyds. Um, that's all I need is some money." Uh, people would, some people would tell me to my face that I was never gonna do it. Um, you know, the people who thought they were being kind would say, "You know, you've never been an entrepreneur, and you've never run a bank as a CEO before. Um, and those two things are things you can't, you know, raise money for." Um, so it's tough. And yeah, there was, uh, lots and lots of knocking on doors, lots of people telling me it was impossible. And in some cases, it was really hard to carry on, you know, sort of sending the emails. But I was determined, and even the glimpse of people te- somebody telling me something positive was enough to drive me onto the next meeting.

Steven Bartlett 17:14 And was there a blow at that time that felt the hardest?

Anne Boden 17:20 Um-

Steven Bartlett 17:20 An email, a meeting? Uh...

Anne Boden 17:24 Yeah, I think that there was one meeting with an- with a set of investors where I just didn't have any of the answers, you know. You've been there.

Steven Bartlett 17:33 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 17:33 You're an entrepreneur.

Steven Bartlett 17:34 Yeah, I know, yeah.

Anne Boden 17:34 Okay? They ask you all these questions. Um, and I didn't have any of the answers. You know, hadn't got as far as, you know, coming up with that part of the plan. And that felt, you know, that felt awful. Um, but you, you pick yourself up, and you figure out how you're gonna find the answers. And you find the answers by asking people for help. You ask people for help that have, that are in the industry. You ask people that help, for help, that you've worked with in the past.

Steven Bartlett 18:02 There's a stereotype that people that build technology are from Silicon Valley.

Anne Boden 18:08 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 18:08 They're, like, young white men, um, you know, that probably went to Harvard or something like that.

Anne Boden 18:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:15 Um, you buck that trend.

Anne Boden 18:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:17 When you were walking into those rooms and having those conversations, were you aware that there was a certain pre- prejudice probably acting against you?

Anne Boden 18:25 Oh, definitely. You know, um...People assume that I'm not technical. People assume that I'm not, you know, capable of coding. You know, there's code running in banks, big banks today that I wrote. Uh, people assume that you have to be from Silicon Valley, you have to be in your 20s or your 30s, um, and look and sound a certain way to build a tech company. Um, you don't look like me or sound like me, um, but I was determined to build a tech company. And that was very, very hard for people to, to appreciate.

Steven Bartlett 19:03 What was your- what was the driving force that spurred you on, regardless of the resistance that you clearly encountered then? What was it that made you, you know, "I'm gonna keep going. I'm gonna carry on knocking"?

Anne Boden 19:14 I think that at that time, I was talking to venture capitalists and investors about this concept of a new bank. That it is possible to build a new bank. It is possible to be a bank that actually has a lower cost base, has a different way of relating to customers. It is possible to do this. And I kept hearing those same statements replayed in different ways to different routes. You know, occasionally, I'd go onto a, um, a VC sort of website from, from Silicon Valley, and somebody'd say roughly the same thing. Uh, there weren't any new banks at that stage. There wasn't anybody else doing it. But I felt that there was, um... Whether it was an echo chamber, whether I was hearing my own ideas back to me, or other people were thinking the same way, I felt I was onto something.

Steven Bartlett 20:05 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 20:05 I felt that it was possible for people to create an- uh, organizations that are gonna change things.

Steven Bartlett 20:15 Hmm. And you'd never done it before, so would you describe yourself as someone that has a high level of self-belief at that point?

Anne Boden 20:24 I've managed to pull off things throughout my career where people thought I couldn't go to the next stage. Um, throughout my career, people have looked at me and thought, "Hmm, yeah, okay, she'll probably get one promotion. She won't get any more." Um, those people were normally, well, working in my department a few years later.

Steven Bartlett 20:47 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 20:47 Um, so I've always managed to go one step beyond, or a couple of steps beyond peop- what people expected. When I started this venture, I was surrounded by people who knew how this new world worked. They knew how venture capital worked. They knew how, how you behaved, how you talked, how you pitched your ideas. I had to learn that. And I was... As a woman, and as somebody who'd come from the corporate world, I was not used to overselling my ideas. You know, one of the things about Starling's whole journey is that we tend to over-deliver, because deep down, you tend to underplay your ideas or underplay your success. And therefore, you know, Starling's consistently over-delivered and surprised people over the years.

Steven Bartlett 21:47 Is that a fe- typical, stereotypical, or typical feminine quality? This idea of like... Because people talk a lot about the reason why, um, some of the reason why, um, uh, women in business, um, struggle to get promotions is they're less likely to liquidate and oversell themselves and demand promotions in the same way that men do. So I'm wondering that, like, that conservatism and that, um, over-delivering but not over-promising is something that's quite typical of women?

Anne Boden 22:26 Yeah, I think it's a question of it's a very, very difficult balance.

Steven Bartlett 22:31 Hmm.

Anne Boden 22:31 If you, if you come over as arrogant, if you come over as demanding, you're not likable.

Steven Bartlett 22:36 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 22:37 Um, if you, if you're too soft and too... And underplay what you have or what you're doing, you're too soft, you know? Sort of y- you can't get it right.

Steven Bartlett 22:47 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 22:48 Um, but I had to learn how to sell the ideas, and it took years.

Steven Bartlett 22:56 It's- it's interesting. Uh, I don't like to dwell too much on like gender differences, but I- I think I'm asking that question as well because I remember a VC friend of mine, um... And also a- a guy called, I think it was Chamath, but a guy called Chamath who's one of the big, uh, investors, and he says that the female-founded businesses in his portfolio always o- uh, have... When he... Oh, Kevin O'Leary as well from Shark Tank, he said the same thing.

Anne Boden 23:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:19 He said his female founders, um, under-promise and over-deliver consistently. Like... A- and he said, "When I looked at all of my portfolio companies," I think he's got 40 or 50, "the female-led businesses are- were outperforming significantly because they were under- under-promising and over-delivering." There's a big announcement that's just come out today, in fact. Um, if you're listening to this, it would have been about two weeks ago. Huel have now released their new flavors, and thankfully, I can now talk about them. They've released a flavor which I think might now be my best flavor. Everybody's up and asking for the, the sort of, the caffeine, decaffeinated version of Huel. They've released an iced coffee caramel flavor, which is amazing. I've tried that. They've released a salted caramel flavor. If you know me, you know that's my favorite flavor in the world. But surprisingly, the flavor which I think might be my new favorite is the cinnamon swirl. I know it sounds strange, right? I never would've asked for that. But the truth of life is that sometimes the things you didn't know you wanted are the things you needed the most. And for me, Huel cinnamon swirl flavor, I think is my favorite flavor now. Very random, but try it. Delicious. Honestly delicious, and uh, nutritionally complete. Win, win, win, win, win, win, win.So hiring those first few people, Starling Bank-

Anne Boden 24:34 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:34 ... what was that process like? Um, and, and really sort of laying the foundations of that business?

Anne Boden 24:40 Well, it was all about sort of phoning up people I knew, explaining what I was gonna do, and the idea, and really working with every organization I knew, trying to get favors. Uh, the, the traditional venture capital route wasn't open to me. Uh, actually going to, um, VC's and saying, "Can I, can I, can I raise 50,000, 100,000, 300,000?" You know, it, it wasn't open to, to me, because the, I, I wasn't like the other people in those schemes.

Steven Bartlett 25:16 Hmm.

Anne Boden 25:17 I had to really work with big consultancy firms and tell them that I had this idea to start a new bank and they were gonna miss out if they didn't back me. Unfortunately, I didn't have any money to pay them. I would pay

Anne Boden 25:32 them once I raised the money, but would they help me? Uh, and some of those big firms decided to back me. And lots of people in those firms took big personal risk, because most people in those big consulting firms thought that this was just a totally crazy idea, "She wants to take on Barclays? Ha, ha, ha. It'll never happen. No, no, let's try it. You know, we may learn something on the way. You know, sort of, she's got all these crazy ideas. You may be able to take them and sell them with two other customers. You know, let, let's just, just help her." And I must admit, I hung out in their customer lounges, uh, for years. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 26:12 Really?

Anne Boden 26:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:14 Just chilling? Just-

Anne Boden 26:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:16 Okay. Interesting. So you, you, you, you raised money in a slightly unconventional way considering the industry. Then you start calling people that you wanna hire from the banking world that you've met or...?

Anne Boden 26:27 Yeah. I phone them up. Um, I've always been quite an unusual boss. I've always been quite, um, different to the people that I, you know, work with in other organizations. Uh, people tend to be quite loyal to me and I phone them up and say, um, "Yeah, I've got a great idea. We're gonna start this bank. Uh, do you fancy coming to work with me? Uh, and we'll raise some money." Whatever. And that's how the team got together.

Steven Bartlett 26:56 So the, the, the who was in the core team?

Anne Boden 26:59 Yeah. Okay. So there's, there was a couple of core teams. Okay? There was the, the first core team was the bunch that eventually went to, to found Monzo.

Steven Bartlett 27:08 Tom's-

Anne Boden 27:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:09 ... which you wrote about in the book and Tom's been here.

Anne Boden 27:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:11 So the, that was the first cohort.

Anne Boden 27:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:14 Yeah.

Anne Boden 27:14 And then Tom left-

Steven Bartlett 27:16 Yeah.

Anne Boden 27:16 ... uh, with the team.

Steven Bartlett 27:18 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 27:18 And I started again. I started again in exactly the same way, phoning people up and say, "Yep. I'm still trying to start this bank. You know, please, please come and help me."

Steven Bartlett 27:32 So Tom, in particular. Tom obviously sat here. He did the podcast-

Anne Boden 27:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:35 ... which I'm sure you've heard. And you've written about, um-

Anne Boden 27:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:37 ... Tom in the book as well. How did you come to meet Tom?

Anne Boden 27:41 I met Tom at a dinner.

Steven Bartlett 27:43 Right.

Anne Boden 27:43 I, I met Tom at a dinner in 2011, uh, when he was working the GoCardless and I, I spotted him as being a very clever, funny, charismatic individual, uh, that was running a business. And we kept in touch.

Steven Bartlett 28:03 So when you started Starling you needed a... Wa- was it a CTO? He came on as a CTO?

Anne Boden 28:07 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, uh, yeah, I needed a CTO. Um, I'd been a bit of a mentor to Tom. Tom had gone to the States to work for, um, GroupM. You know, we kept in touch. I'd met him with coffee once or twice. And when he was back, I mean, to the UK, I phoned him up and said, or he contacted me, says he's back, uh, and we, I hired him as CTO.

Steven Bartlett 28:29 So he hires you as CTO. Y- he then builds out the technical team I'm guessing? That's typically what CTOs do.

Anne Boden 28:34 Yeah. We, we, we, you know, we started hiring developers. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:37 Okay. And was there, 'cause I, obviously it's well written that the, there was a bit of a fallout here.

Anne Boden 28:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:45 Um, take me on that journey. When did, when, when did that, how did the relationship start and when was there, when was there friction?

Anne Boden 28:52 Hmm. Uh, it, one day Tom decides to, um, to go, um, and fortunately, um, we were about to take funding, um, uh, which meant that the deal was gonna, not gonna happen. And basically at that particular point, um, the funding and the team fell apart. Um, you know, looking, looking back of what happened, you know, I... You know, Tom had a really, really, really tough time at Monzo.

Steven Bartlett 29:25 Hmm.

Anne Boden 29:25 Um, I feel for him, um, perhaps that we could have stayed together as a team, and I could have done what I'm good at and perhaps Tom could have done what he was good at.

Steven Bartlett 29:36 Hmm.

Anne Boden 29:37 Uh, but, you know, sort of, you know, that's history. Both Monzo and Starling have done really, really well.

Steven Bartlett 29:44 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 29:45 And having a bit of competition does actually lead to a probably better industry.

Steven Bartlett 29:52 Hmm. The Klarna founder that came on said that about Afterpay as well. I, I read that there was a funding deal, um, early on, but you pulled out of the funding deal because one of the founders was involved in a crime?

Anne Boden 30:05 Yeah. It was... Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:08 So you, Starling Bank was, uh, going to take funding?

Anne Boden 30:12 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 30:12 And you pulled out of the deal because one of the founders of the firm investing was involved in a serious crime? Or because Starling was involved in a serious crime? I couldn't quite-

Anne Boden 30:23 No, no. Starling was not in-

Steven Bartlett 30:24 Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Anne Boden 30:24 ... you know, sort of... This was, this was, um, this was a fund we were gonna take investment about from. And one of the founders of that firm-

Steven Bartlett 30:31 Okay.

Anne Boden 30:32 ... didn't have the reputation that we wanted. Starling is a very, very... Starling believes in something. We have a mission-We believe in doing the right thing, and I think it's very, very important that we, you know, especially in those early days, we maintain and are true to our vision.

Steven Bartlett 30:53 And that caused the disagreement between yourself and Tom-

Anne Boden 30:56 No, it wasn't that.

Steven Bartlett 30:57 It wasn't that. There was a, a culture clash around a corny video I heard-

Anne Boden 31:03 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:03 ... that was being produced.

Anne Boden 31:06 Um-

Steven Bartlett 31:06 I'm trying to understand what, like the-

Anne Boden 31:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:08 'Cause I get, I get, I understand a point where founders part ways, but typically that's, there's lots of small things that happen leading up until that point, little points of friction or disagreements. And what were those, um, points of disagreement?

Anne Boden 31:23 I think Tom and I have much more in common than people think. Um, you know, sort of Tom and I often sit on panels now, right, so, so it, it's a panel of four, and, you know, and they go, "Great idea, we'll have Starling and Monzo on the panel-"

Steven Bartlett 31:39 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 31:39 "... and we'll have two traditional banks in the middle," you know, Barclays and Lloyds, whatever. And, um, and there's lots of questions. And somebody asks a question, and there's gonna be two answers. There's gonna be one set of answers from Tom and myself, who tend to have the same view on things, and then a different answer from the, from the incumbent banks. And sometimes I can see, you know, I look across the panel, catch sort of Tom's eye, and he... and, you know, I answer or he answers. There's lots more we have in common, and it's a really, it's a real pity it, you know, it ended the way it did. You know, uh, you know, there are lots of places in the book when I talk about, um, you know, sort of, you know, Tom's intellect and, and Tom's energy. Um, it's a real pity it ended the way it did.

Steven Bartlett 32:31 There, there came a day where you, you turned to, to Tom, and you knew there was something wrong, and you, you say to him, you know, "Tom, is there, is there... you don't seem happy about something here." And, um, and he, he responds that he's "sick of your knee-jerk behavior."

Anne Boden 32:45 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:46 How did, how did that feel? What was, wh- what was he referring to when he says, "sick of your knee-jerk behavior"?

Anne Boden 32:53 I think that, um, you know, businesses are very, very stressful. I think Tom, you know, is, is an individual that sometimes has tough times. And, you know, sort of every single conversation between founders, um, on the wrong day about the wrong thing could possibly lead to that sort of breakup. But, um, wow, what a story, eh?

Steven Bartlett 33:25 How would you describe the differences in your personalities? 'Cause it seems like that's probably at the heart of the clash.

Anne Boden 33:32 Uh, I don't think different personalities lead to clashes.

Steven Bartlett 33:36 Interesting.

Anne Boden 33:37 I think that people have different personalities working together can create great businesses.

Steven Bartlett 33:46 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 33:47 Um, I think Tom, you know, went on, you know, to, to, you know, sort of lead a great group at Monzo. And, you know, and I've listened to his... the show, um, where he talked to you, and (sighs) he had a tough time.

Steven Bartlett 34:06 When you heard that, how did you feel about th- the way that the r- events were recounted? Be honest with me. I wanna know the truth.

Anne Boden 34:15 Yeah, it's a very, very difficult, it's a very difficult question to answer. Um, I chose Tom as a CTO, um, I still believe he is an extremely talented individual, and he has, you know, grown a great business. Of course, Starling is a better business, um, uh, but isn't it great that what happened, you know, that the story of, you know, it's a... Yeah, you know, two individuals come across each other, um, they meet, you know, sort of one decides to start a bank, hires the other person, um, there's a falling out, both businesses going on to really change things. Uh, well, it's, it's, it's the story of digital banking in the UK. I keep wondering if, you know, if that story never happened, uh, would we have all got so much, you know, sort of inches in the press, to be honest? It was quite a story.

Steven Bartlett 35:18 But how did you feel when you heard the way that he recounted the events? You're, you're listening to it, it's coming-

Anne Boden 35:24 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:24 ... through your ears, and you're thinking...

Anne Boden 35:25 It's the first time I'd heard it, but I knew that that story was being retold in places where I couldn't hear it. Um, but I'm quite philosophical about this. We all see the world and a story in different ways. And yeah, you know, it's a, it's, it's another piece in the story of the Starling-Monzo journey.

Steven Bartlett 35:51 And at this time when you and Tom are having a fallout, um, within Starling, and you, you've realized, I guess, that, you know, you have different ideas and perspectives about how things should be done and where they should be going, you hold a crisis meeting, you come together, um, I guess y- you have those meetings, I guess, because you're trying to discuss a way, a way through, a way to a positive outcome. I think at some point you realize that there's not gonna be a positive outcome and one of you is gonna have to leave, and then you offer up your resignation.

Anne Boden 36:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:20 S- so you offered to, to lea- to quit Starling Bank.

Anne Boden 36:23 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, you know, and that's... You, you've talked about, you know, how women act differently to men. I was prepared to give up Starling. I was prepared to give up my part in Starling for the good of Starling, and that was a very stupid thing to do.

Steven Bartlett 36:44 Why?

Anne Boden 36:46 ... because it was my business, it was my idea. Um, I'd got the business to where it was, but I was volunteering to give up my role in Starling because I wanted Starling to succeed. Tom, I think, didn't think I was capable, somebody that, like me, that had spent so many years in corporate life, that I wasn't capable of delivering and building a big tech company, and I built a big tech company. Um, yeah. So he didn't have that faith in me, but I realized that I could do it and made it happen.

Steven Bartlett 37:36 Specifically in those days, you, you decide that you're gonna step away for the greater good of the business.

Anne Boden 37:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:42 Admirable thing to do, some would say. Um, it appears that it's one of the decisions you regret in hindsight, getting to that place? Or just gauging by your reaction then, it seems like it's something where you look back and think, "Uh, why did I..."

Anne Boden 37:58 Yeah, I should never have volunteered to resign. I should never have volunteered to go. Um, that was me saying, um, that the survival of Starling was, was more important than me, and both things are important. My part in Starling and the survival of Starling.

Steven Bartlett 38:20 And what was it that changed your mind?

Anne Boden 38:23 Well, I think, as I write in the book, I'd sort of retreated. I went to a coffee shop, went to Starbucks, and, um, met a guy that I'd seen in Starbucks every Sunday for the, you know, for the previous 10 years and, you know, he's a tech entrepreneur. And he came to me and he sat opposite me and he said, you know, chatted about things, and I said that I'd stepped away from Starling because that was the only way the business would succeed. And he said to me, "What are you gonna do next?" And I said, "I- I'm probably gonna start another bank." And he said, "Well, you don't have to start another bank. You can go back in and, and take Starling back." And I realized that I'd made a mistake, that I needed, you know, it... I desperately wanted to create Starling, I desperately wanted to lead Starling, and I had to take Starling back, and I lit- lit- literally ran out of the coffee shop and I, I can, I can see, I can see, I can see the street in front of me now. And I got into the car, drove into London, um, and took Starling back.

Steven Bartlett 39:41 And what did that mean, taking it back?

Anne Boden 39:44 Uh, it meant that I had to be, you know, totally, or I had to talk to people and say that I had a vision of creating something which is an organization that does things in a right sort of way. You know, I'd been a banker for 30-odd years, and I was ashamed to be a banker. And this idea of Starling was to do things my way, and I really wanted to lead the organization to where it is at the moment. So I had to make that clear, and I took back Starling. But the consequence was that I was on my own. I was on my own in the office.

Steven Bartlett 40:32 You, so you walk back in the office and say to the team, or say to Tom, that you're withdrawing your resignation?

Anne Boden 40:40 No, um, by then they'd refused to accept my resignation.

Steven Bartlett 40:44 Oh.

Anne Boden 40:45 Uh, because, um... It's a, it's a long story, I don't want to go into all the details.

Steven Bartlett 40:51 We've got a lot of time.

Anne Boden 40:51 But they refused to accept it because, you know, of certain things, um, so I stepped in and took control of Starling.

Steven Bartlett 40:59 And so, um, I heard around this time you'd also been burgled at home.

Anne Boden 41:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:03 And this kind of exacerbated, I think, some of the emotional components of decision-making.

Anne Boden 41:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:09 Is that accurate?

Anne Boden 41:10 Yeah. So, you know, this, you know, this happened around the time of, of some burglaries and, you know, and why, you know, why that's in the book is that we, you know, we're CEOs, we're leaders of businesses, we're entrepreneurs, but we're also human and a burglary is quite personal.

Steven Bartlett 41:30 And how did, how did that impact you and your decision-making around that time, that burglary?

Anne Boden 41:35 Um, I think it was tough around that time, but all issues and all things you do, um, in a business, um, are complex, and that was an ad- added complication at that time.

Steven Bartlett 41:53 Just adds more to the, the mind and more things to think about and, um, makes you feel a little bit unstable, I guess, though. Some-

Anne Boden 42:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:02 ... burglar in your home, I think, has that kind of psychological destabilization. Um, while you were away f- what, you'd handed in your notice at Starling and you'd left the office. While you were away, I guess Tom's running the office per se. Is that accurate?

Anne Boden 42:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:16 And, um, you know, the way that it's framed in press is that there's some kind of, like, coup that's gone on where, you know, control of the company has been seized from you in like a kinda low-key hostile man- manner. Is that at all accurate?

Anne Boden 42:30 I think you have to read the book.

Steven Bartlett 42:31 Yeah.

Anne Boden 42:31 You know, there's a, um, you know, I... The book is the story of what happened. Um, there were lots of notes and emails taken at the time, and this was all written from my notes, uh, and emails written at the time.And I think it's up to the readers to decide, you know, what really went on.

Steven Bartlett 42:59 And you, um, you go in and you say, uh, you know, "I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna resign. Um, I wanna lead this company. I've got a vision for the company and its future." And that means that you have to fire Tom-

Anne Boden 43:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:11 ... essentially. That's the decision you make. You say, "I'm the CEO still of Starling Bank, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna let, let you go and I'm gonna rebuild my own team." And the way that, you know, when Tom sat here and spoke to me, he, he says that you fired the whole team. Is that accurate?

Anne Boden 43:27 Okay. Um, the, the story is that, um, we lost the funding. Um, you can't... if you can't pay people, it's very unfair to let them work. Um, we were very, very honest with the people that unless we could raise funding, there weren't gonna be any jobs. And I think it's documented extremely well in the book about all the ins and outs.

Steven Bartlett 43:54 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 43:54 And it's quite a story.

Steven Bartlett 43:56 And so you lose funding because Tom's quitting. And, uh, obviously, when people invest in companies, they're investing in teams and peoples.

Anne Boden 44:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:03 And CTO is a critical role, the person that's building the technology, so that's why the funding goes through. And you realize at this point, "I've got to basically build this thing back from scratch." Um, I'm guessing you had an inclination that there was a greater allegiance towards Tom with the, with the existing cohort of people.

Anne Boden 44:19 No, not really.

Steven Bartlett 44:20 No?

Anne Boden 44:20 No.

Steven Bartlett 44:21 Okay. It was more just y- y- you basically weren't gonna be able to-

Anne Boden 44:24 Uh.

Steven Bartlett 44:25 ... pay for them because-

Anne Boden 44:25 Uh.

Steven Bartlett 44:26 ... the funding had been pulled. Um, yeah, so that day, so you, you know, uh, Tom leaves. Um, the, the team are, are, are let go as well, and they go with Tom, and, you know, that starts the story of Monzo in, as, as he's described it. They start their own bank and that's what we now call as Monzo. That day after you walk into the office, so I'm guessing, I don't know whether it's a physical office or a metaphorical one, but you walk in, you're alone-

Anne Boden 44:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:53 ... pretty much.

Anne Boden 44:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:53 Is there anyone else in the room? Is there anyone else in Starling as an employee at this point?

Anne Boden 44:57 Uh, that, it's me on my own.

Steven Bartlett 44:58 Just you?

Anne Boden 44:59 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:00 And how did that feel going from, you know, the climb, climb, "We're building something here." To zoo-puh, ground zero?

Anne Boden 45:06 I'm very good at picking myself up, you know, sort of at that particular point, um, I was feeling, "Well, I haven't got the responsibility now of, of having to raise money to pay these people. Um, I can take my time now to find a new investor, or I can build a new team." And it didn't take long before I was... Well, uh, there's a gentleman called Alan Chandler.

Steven Bartlett 45:34 Friend of yours?

Anne Boden 45:35 Yeah, who turned up two days later and-

Steven Bartlett 45:38 A- at your office?

Anne Boden 45:38 ... and stayed, and stayed working for no salary at all for nearly a year.

Steven Bartlett 45:45 What was, um... What had you built at that point in terms of... on the day when Tom and the, the new Monzo crowd had left, what had you actually achieved as a company? What, what... Was there technology? Was there...

Anne Boden 45:56 No, nothing from the technology side had been really done. Um, we had a banking application, so when you, when you, um, apply for a bank, you have to have a banking application.

Steven Bartlett 46:06 Yeah.

Anne Boden 46:06 And it was in boxes, so, you know, so we had a banking application. We didn't really have much tech.

Steven Bartlett 46:12 Okay. So your friend comes in, he offers to do the P45s for the-

Anne Boden 46:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:17 ... staff that have just left and just to sort of give you a hand.

Anne Boden 46:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 46:20 Um, and then you start hiring again.

Anne Boden 46:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:24 A lot of people would quit at that point and a lot of people would give up. That's a pretty significant blow as far as I'm concerned. How many people had left in total?

Anne Boden 46:31 16.

Steven Bartlett 46:32 16 people. That's a pretty significant blow to... You know, might be time to go back to the corporate world, no? Did that not cross your mind?

Anne Boden 46:41 Uh, not really. Um, I, I'd got to a state of having, almost having a banking license. Um, I had the idea, I'd learnt a lot, I knew what we needed to do. It didn't take me long and I was starting again.

Steven Bartlett 47:01 You say that like it's so easy, like it's just so effortless, and I know it's not.

Anne Boden 47:05 It was humiliating, okay? It was humiliating reading in the press what had happened because the stories being told in the press and the stories being told now are not actually what happened. Um, but, you know, that's history. You gotta get on and you gotta sort things out and you gotta move on. And I was... yeah, I was up for it. I was gonna do it again.

Steven Bartlett 47:30 You seem reluctant to, uh, correct false stories here. That's clearly a decision you've made.

Anne Boden 47:38 Yeah, I think that... What I don't want to get into is, "He said that." You know, "She said this." You know, I- I've written a book which is, um, you know, which is a very accurate account of what happened and my side of the story. And people are allowed to have different sides of the same story. That's okay. Um, but I wanted to tell my story.

Steven Bartlett 48:05 Hmm. Your friend that stopped by the office-

Anne Boden 48:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:09 ... um, and gave you a hand. How emotionally important was that? And how grateful are you to them?

Anne Boden 48:19 I will be forever, ever grateful to Alan.

Steven Bartlett 48:22 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 48:23 Uh, I think that the one person to come in and, and be somebody who said, "Yep, this happened, but, you know, yeah, you're gonna start again. That's fine." And I think one of the symbolic things that happened was that in the early weeks... You know, when, when they left, you know, Tom and the team had left all their debris behind, you know, sort of... and they had a hell of a lot of debris. Um, uh, I went out one day to do some fundraising-And when I came back, Alan had collected all the, all the mugs and the odd socks and, you know, the... and, you know, all the various medication they were all taking, and, and had cleared it all out and thrown it all away. And the office was clear of the old world, and we could start again. And that was quite symbolic. And yeah. It was... I sometimes think, if Alan had not come in, you know, would it have been so easy? And I'll never know, but that was the start of a new team. And, you know, that team, you know, the, you know, the A team, uh, the team that left were the B team. Um... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 49:40 There she is. (laughs)

Anne Boden 49:41 Right. Um, was... You know, we, we, we attracted people that were... had sought out Starling.

Steven Bartlett 49:49 Yeah.

Anne Boden 49:49 You know, this, this woman is gonna build a bank and she's gonna do all these things, and they turned up and (sighs) and they were awesome.

Steven Bartlett 49:59 Okay, so the team have left. Alan's cleaned out the office. Is there, is there not a moment in you where you, you consider packing it in? Is there not a moment where you think, "Do you know what? (sighs) This is..."

Anne Boden 50:11 April the 1st.

Steven Bartlett 50:12 April the 1st.

Anne Boden 50:14 That's when, you know, that's when I accidentally had an email from the team that left, um, and that... (sighs) That was difficult.

Steven Bartlett 50:31 You accidentally had an email?

Anne Boden 50:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:33 You weren't meant to be copied on it?

Anne Boden 50:35 Uh, I don't know. I never know whether I was h- I was meant to be copied on it or not. Um, but they were making fun of me, and I thought, "Well, is that the day I'm gonna give up?" But I said, "Nope," you know, and I went back in the office the following day and carried on.

Steven Bartlett 50:54 Making fun of you in terms of your management skills, your... something you'd done or said, or very personal things?

Anne Boden 51:02 No, it's a question of, you know' you, you have to read the book about it, but it was a prank about them being arrested. Um, but you have to read the story to understand the s- the, the, the nuance. But that was the only day that I thought, you know, "Can I carry on?" And that lasted an hour.

Steven Bartlett 51:21 Were you upset?

Anne Boden 51:21 But I was absolutely determined.

Steven Bartlett 51:23 Were you upset reading that email?

Anne Boden 51:26 I was panicking about them. I was worried about them.

Steven Bartlett 51:29 Why?

Anne Boden 51:30 Um, I was worried about the fact that they could be in real trouble. And yeah. I, I hired these people. They were friends for years. Uh, they... and I liked them. You can't suddenly, um, you can't suddenly cut off all connection with people that you worked with, even though this thing had happened to me.

Steven Bartlett 51:59 Did it put a fire in your belly that wasn't there before?

Anne Boden 52:03 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:03 Because, you know, events like that can (laughs) they can kind of send you one of two ways. Or, and they can kind of send you... I guess they can also send you both ways at the same time, but they c- uh, typically, if we're just kind of broad strokes, they can, they can devastate you to the point where you, you know, don't get out of bed, or they can motivate you to the point that you work two times as hard.

Anne Boden 52:24 Nothing was gonna stop Starling s- succeeding after that happened. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:32 So it's the- yeah, (laughs) it's the work twice as hard.

Anne Boden 52:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:35 And did you, did you really... did you... were there moments like where you, you, you know, you p- you just put that extra effort in and you, you know, you became a little bit more determined because of that? Like, moments you can think of? 'Cause I know that I'm a human being and I don't care.

Anne Boden 52:51 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:51 If I was in that situation, I swear to God, I'd have a picture of their face on the wall. My team would be hearing about it every five seconds. That's the guy I am. Like it or not, I don't care. I do that about all the, the competition we have.

Anne Boden 53:03 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 53:03 I... It motivates me, and it, it is what it is. You don't have to like me. So, I'm, I'm asking the question, like, did it, did they become a, a real significant competitive driving force in your life?

Anne Boden 53:15 Okay. As a woman, you can't be bitter.

Steven Bartlett 53:17 Yeah.

Anne Boden 53:17 Okay? You can't show that bitterness. Um-

Steven Bartlett 53:20 Why?

Anne Boden 53:21 You can't. You h- you have to be... you know, you, you have to internally put your energies into, um, into Starling. Um, you know, Starling, Starling has succeeded. Starling is a successful business, um, that I'm terribly proud of. And yes, when I... I take a lot of inspiration from other people's books and whatever. Most, most businesses have had a, uh, near-death moment. It, it, it's, it happens so often that the best businesses, the best entrepreneurs have had times when they lost it. They almost lost it, but they recovered. Uh, this was mine. And, uh, it played out very publicly. And, um, I learnt a lot from it, and I decided to continue, and I think Starling and me are better for it.

Steven Bartlett 54:26 When you started to rehire the new team-

Anne Boden 54:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:29 ... I'm guessing you made different hiring decisions in terms of... Because of what had happened, did it influence the type of people that you brought into the business for the chapter two?

Anne Boden 54:42 Not necessarily.

Steven Bartlett 54:43 Hmm.

Anne Boden 54:44 I think that... Yeah, I, I didn't set out to get, um, a different set of personalities.I could focus on getting more qualified people and higher caliber people because I had a better business proposition.

Steven Bartlett 55:05 Hmm.

Anne Boden 55:06 It was a year in, 18 months in, you know, it wasn't a blank sheet of paper. It was a fully formed proposition that had almost raised money-

Steven Bartlett 55:18 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 55:18 ... where we had an application for the banking license that was almost fully formed. So it was less risk for those people coming in, uh, and I also had spent 18 months figuring this thing out. I was better at selling the idea.

Steven Bartlett 55:37 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 55:39 So the second time around, I could bring in a n- um... I don't want this to be derogatory on, you know-

Steven Bartlett 55:44 Sure.

Anne Boden 55:44 ... Tom or whatever. I hired a- a- a higher caliber, more appropriate set of people for the problem we had to solve.

Steven Bartlett 55:54 Okay.

Anne Boden 55:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:55 I think that's, I think that's a natural thing. I think, (clears throat) I think even in, you know, Monzo's business, I'm pretty sure when I had the conversation with Tom, he, he speaks about hiring and, you know, hiring a different caliber of person-

Anne Boden 56:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 56:07 ... to meet, uh, an evolving business challenge. Especially, I know, I know in particular Monzo's case, they did start bringing in people from, like, the banking world and stuff like that. And even in my business, I talk a lot about how, uh, we did the exact same thing. I, at the very start, didn't quite know the caliber of talent that I needed or the, you know, their experience.

Anne Boden 56:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:25 And in year three of my business, I realized that the first two, one or two years of, uh, hires that I'd made weren't adequately, uh, experienced in solving the problem I had to solve. And also, the type and scale of problem you have to solve evolves, right? When you are one, two years old, it's a different set of problems to when you are like 1,000 employees, right?

Anne Boden 56:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:44 So that makes perfect sense. Pivotal moments then. So chapter two of Starling, um, funding.

Anne Boden 56:51 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 56:51 What was the pivotal moment with getting, getting the money in the door?

Anne Boden 56:55 It was very, very difficult.

Steven Bartlett 56:56 Again.

Anne Boden 56:57 Uh, yeah, it was very, um, but two years in, uh, I was approached by, um, a family office and I wouldn't return their calls, okay? You know, I was absolutely determined that I was gonna have a VC, these people I knew, it's gonna be these well-known firms, um, or, you know, my investment bankers were gonna find me this sort of investor. Uh, but I was approached by, uh, a, a family office, um, that had seen, uh, an article about Tom in Bloomberg and had investigated what's going on in the new bank scene in the UK and wanted to talk to me. And I started conversations with them, and it took a while for me to actually engage with them. I'd never heard of

Anne Boden 57:47 them, and I wasn't gonna talk to people I didn't know. Anyway, I ended up going on a, getting on a plane to the Bahamas.

Steven Bartlett 57:54 Oh, that's when you know they're rich.

Anne Boden 57:56 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 57:57 It was a yacht, wasn't it?

Anne Boden 57:58 It was a yacht. And, uh, spent three days being interrogated by a, a gentleman called Harold McPike, uh, who is an algorithic- algorithmic trader. Um, and, uh, he, he asked me the most complex questions that anybody had ever asked. He was really into the detail. And yes, uh, at half past four, um, I joined him on his yacht. And I think-

Steven Bartlett 58:31 How big was this yacht?

Anne Boden 58:32 It's a big yacht.

Steven Bartlett 58:33 More of a ship.

Anne Boden 58:34 It was a big yacht.

Steven Bartlett 58:35 Okay.

Anne Boden 58:36 Uh, and, uh, yeah, he asked me lots and lots of questions about me, about the business, and he was very, very detailed. And at 11:15 in the evening, he offered me 48 million pounds for 66% of the company.

Steven Bartlett 58:59 66%?

Anne Boden 59:00 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:03 I read that he said, he, he said something to you like, uh, "I'm not gonna give you the 3 million."

Anne Boden 59:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:08 And then-

Anne Boden 59:08 I was trying to raise 3 million, okay?

Steven Bartlett 59:10 Right.

Anne Boden 59:10 I was trying to raise 3 million. That's all I needed, was 3 million to get to getting the, the banking license. So the idea was to raise 3 million and then 15 million, then 30 million. I only wanted the 3 million. I hadn't raised a penny. The only money that had gone into the business was my money.

Steven Bartlett 59:26 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 59:27 So I, it was impossible to raise money. Uh, and he said, yeah, so he said, "No, I'm not gonna give you 3 million. I'm gonna give you 48."

Steven Bartlett 59:37 Christ, that's like Chris Tarrant from He Wants To Be A Millionaire. That's mad. 40... And how did you feel? So there's two real things here. That's a huge amount of money, but that's also 66% of your business.

Anne Boden 59:48 Hmm. Tough. And at that particular point, you know that all the other things that you're working on, all the other leads are gonna, gonna go.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:01 Yeah.

Anne Boden 1:00:01 You may have 40, 50 different leads you're working on. Uh, you gonna accept this offer and sort of somebody else now controls the company? But with 48 million, you have a situation where you can build the tech, best tech in the world. So, you know, I've been doing this for two years and it was really difficult. And I had somebody who really understood what I was gonna do, was super intelligent, that actually believed in my conviction I could do this. But I was have to give up 66%, but it would mean that I could build something that nobody else had ever built.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:53 I mean, in that moment, he's valuing what is, and correct me if I'm wrong here, essentially an idea.

Anne Boden 1:01:02 Yeah. It was a 16-page deck.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:06 He's valuing a 16-page deck at 72 million.

Anne Boden 1:01:12 (exhales)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:13 How long did you have to think about that decision?

Anne Boden 1:01:16 (exhales) Probably about 30 seconds.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:20 (laughs) Really? And how do you feel about it? 'Cause a lot of people, they look back on those fundraising decisions, it seems that every startup entrepreneur regrets how they valued their bit business at the start, because they always ... especially when it becomes a multi-billion dollar company, they feel like they sold themselves short. How do you feel about it? He's not listening.

Anne Boden 1:01:40 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:41 He's too busy in the Bahamas-

Anne Boden 1:01:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:42 ... on his massive yacht.

Anne Boden 1:01:45 I think that it is more and more important to actually create this vision. I was so excited that I could now start. And we eventually signed the deal on the 21st of December and submitted the banking license on the 22nd of December. It was finally, you know, we could, we could start. It was hugely exciting.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:14 Did you celebrate?

Anne Boden 1:02:17 Well, I couldn't actually celebrate, because we didn't actually have a term sheet for another three days. So, you know, it was on the Saturday night, I was flying back and I had the term sheet an hour before picking up the flight.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:31 But once you'd signed the term sheet and it was all signed off, did you celebrate?

Anne Boden 1:02:33 No, you never ce- yeah, y- you never celebrate term sheets.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:36 Hm.

Anne Boden 1:02:37 Uh, you celebrate getting the money in the bank.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:39 When the money came in the bank, did you celebrate?

Anne Boden 1:02:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:41 (laughs)

Anne Boden 1:02:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:42 And what, how did that-

Anne Boden 1:02:43 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:02:43 How did that look?

Anne Boden 1:02:44 Uh, how did it look? I-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:45 You look at your ... You open up your app, uh, Barclays, whatever.

Anne Boden 1:02:48 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:02:48 Oh, 48 million. Yeah.

Anne Boden 1:02:51 It's, it was very exciting.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:52 Back to the Bahamas. (laughs)

Anne Boden 1:02:53 It was very exciting. It was very exciting. And it, it allows you to do so much.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:59 Was it terrifying as well? Was it scary? It's a lot of responsibilities, £48 million of someone else's money.

Anne Boden 1:03:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:07 Yeah.

Anne Boden 1:03:07 And that's why entrepreneurs that take external funding are so committed to do a good job. There's a huge amount of responsibility to deliver.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:18 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:03:19 You can't just, um, you can't walk away from it.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:23 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:03:23 Once you got that investment, you have to deliver. It's so important.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:28 And how much money have you raised in total now-

Anne Boden 1:03:31 Ooh.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:31 ... for Starling?

Anne Boden 1:03:32 600, 700.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:33 600, 700 million pounds.

Anne Boden 1:03:36 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:03:36 Wow. I could've done so much with that. So what have you learnt about raising investment? Well, that, if you were to ... You know, there'll be a lot of entrepreneurs-

Anne Boden 1:03:43 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:43 ... listening to this, um, who have a lot of, like, unhelpful s- stereotypes or thoughts about raising investment. God, some of them will think the only way to do it is like Dragon's Den, right?

Anne Boden 1:03:54 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:03:54 Um, what would, what would you tell them now having gone through this process so many times?

Anne Boden 1:03:59 Take the money. Okay, so there's a huge amount of wr- a huge amount written about, you know, you just need to go for these sort of investors or those sort of investors, and you need to pick your investor, whatever. The vast majority of people can't pick where the investment's coming from. You know, only 1% of vet- venture capital funding goes to women founders. Right? So, you know, if somebody offers you the money, you gotta take it. (laughs) 'Cause n- it comes around so, so rarely. And a lot of people worry about valuation. Not relevant. You know, most businesses fail. Most entrepreneurs don't get their businesses off the ground, not because they don't have good ideas, not because they're not good people, but they couldn't get the funding.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:52 And do you think it's hard to raise money?

Anne Boden 1:04:54 Yeah, very hard. Venture capitalists tend to invest in, um, businesses that look very, very similar. You know, if you look at ... If you, if you read Paul Graham's works-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:09 Oh, yeah.

Anne Boden 1:05:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:10 I'm a fan as well.

Anne Boden 1:05:10 You know, he talks about really e- e- that teams need to look like this and, and things are done in this sort of way. You know, I would've never got any Y Combinator VC Paul Graham funding because I'm not that sort of entrepreneur. And a lot of investing by VCs, they're looking for carbon copies of businesses they've invested in in the past.

Anne Boden 1:05:41 And the really great ideas don't get that investment. And really great ideas from women founders don't get great inv- don't get significant investment.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:52 Hm. (clears throat) Interesting. But there's a lot of money out there, isn't there?

Anne Boden 1:05:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:58 That's what I, I've come to learn, is-

Anne Boden 1:05:59 Yeah, I think it's-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:59 ... there is a lot of money out there.

Anne Boden 1:06:00 There's a lot of money out there when you're successful.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:03 Right.

Anne Boden 1:06:03 Starling now is, I- is a big business, 1,600 people, two and a half million accounts, um, doing interesting things, um, we have a reputation, um, but the fact that, you know, and occasionally, you know, they publish how much money in the UK has gone to women founders and it's, a lot of it's gone to me. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:06:31 (laughs)

Anne Boden 1:06:32 Okay? (laughs) Okay. Um, so, so I, I think we have to be very realistic that you get to a point where you're a success and people then want to invest. But the majority of the time at Starling, it's been really tough.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:49 It's been really tough. So what do, when you reflect on your corporate career and you contrast it and compare it to your entrepreneurial career, what was the really surprising tough part on a personal level? And this is really why I started this podcast, you know?

Anne Boden 1:07:05 Yeah. Mm-hmm. (clears throat) The-All jobs are tough. A corporate job is very tough. I think that being an entrepreneur, it's far more personal responsibility. As an entrepreneur, there's nobody that m- that, uh, in all the hiring decisions, um, somehow ended up with you making that first hiring decision. You know, we have 1,600 people, but those, you know, somewhere up in the chain, I hired one of those people, right-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:36 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:07:36 ... that made that hiring choice. Um, anything that goes wrong is, is my responsibility, um, and all mistakes are probably down to me. Okay? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:45 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:07:45 So there's a lot of personal responsibility. And that responsibility gets more and more as more and more people depend on it. But isn't it fantastic?

Steven Bartlett 1:07:59 (laughs)

Anne Boden 1:07:59 Isn't it a wonderful buzz? Isn't it, isn't it wonderful t- to, (sighs) to have a platform, really? I, (sighs) I fundamentally believe that financial institutions lost their way and Starling is doing the right thing. And somehow, people have said to me that I've created the organization that I wanted to run, because I quite like running organizations, and I wanted to do things in a different sort of way. So finally, I'm running the organization that I've been wanting to run for the last 35 years.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:40 And that you wished exist as, is-

Anne Boden 1:08:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:42 ... existed as a customer.

Anne Boden 1:08:43 Yeah. I think that, you know, I've been very lucky. I, I've always had a great relationship with money. I ... But the vast majority of people in this world have a bad relationship with money. It doesn't go well for them. And, you know, they deserve a better bank. I went into banking, you know, because I wanted to do interesting things, I wanted to come to London, and I wanted to be in tech. But I also wanted to do something that was respectable, worthwhile, doing the right thing by people. And banks stopped doing that. And I'm much more comfortable being accountable for the organization that is Starling.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:33 And it helped you to, um, I guess, alleviate that taxi cab shame you-

Anne Boden 1:09:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:38 ... reference where a taxi driver-

Anne Boden 1:09:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:40 ... asks you what you do, and you don't wanna say, "Banker," because there's so much stigma and shame around-

Anne Boden 1:09:45 Yeah. Hm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:45 ... the sector.

Anne Boden 1:09:47 Hm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:47 You proud to talk about ...

Anne Boden 1:09:49 Yeah. I'm proud of talk what I do. I'm proud to talk about ... Yeah, I'm proud to talk about what I do and what I stand for. And having a bit of a platform to nudge things in the right way, you know, I, (sighs) I'm only a small cog in this whole world, but if I can do my bit to make things fairer in a couple of s- segments-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:15 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:10:15 ... you know, I should do that, and I'm enjoying doing it.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:19 You talked about the buck stopping with you.

Anne Boden 1:10:21 Hm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:21 All problems are your problems. All hiring decisions are ultimately lead back to you by X degrees of separation. When you're ... And especially, you know ... Pff ... The other part is the industry you're in is not an easy e- an easy industry. Customers, you have s- millions of, like, customers that are ... You're dealing with their money, which is the, one of the most emotional, sensitive things you can deal with with any customer. Um, the, the emotional toll must be extreme. I mean, Tom sat here, and it was the first window I'd had into how brutal, uh, emotionally brutal fintech and managing a bank can be.

Anne Boden 1:10:58 Yeah. Yeah. Managing a bank, you know, so yeah, I listened to what Tom said, and all the things that Tom said happen in all banks, right? That is what happens. But it's my job. It's what I do. Um, it's what the people I work with do. And sometimes it's ... You know, sometimes you read emails of people that have been scammed out of their life savings. You have emails and you have cases where, you know, gamblers have lost all their money. You have to deal with people who have lost their son in some tragic circumstances. We have a window on people's lives in all sorts of circumstances, and we have to be responsible, we have to be empathetic, and we have to guard ourselves from the bad guys out there. What we do means that we touch people in all sorts of ways when they're most vulnerable, whether they've lost somebody, whether they have, you know, they gambled all their money away or whether they've been scammed. That's a responsibility. But it's not just me that has to take that responsibility. We have, we have hundreds of people that talk to customers every day, that see customers when things are going

Anne Boden 1:12:29 well and things are going badly. Um, it takes huge amount of energy, and sometimes they're listening to calls. And it really impresses me how young people, you know, who are new to their careers, who, um, are so empathetic, are so in touch with real people and really helping them. You know, I take my hat off to them.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:51 What do you do to protect yourself mentally from the chaos of running such a big business that has such a, you know, is dealing with such a sensitive topic for people? What do you ... How do you protect yourself from not losing your sanity?

Anne Boden 1:13:11 I had a great mentor in this. My father. My father, um, was brought up in a home where, um, his father was in the First World War, and he came back from the First World War with, um, what you now call post-traumatic stress syndrome. And they didn't call it that then. They called it, you know, shell shock. And he, he was brought up in that home where his father was... Had good days and bad days, and things were quite fragile. But he had... My father had a great way of talking about feelings and emotions, and what you do to talk yourself up, and, and how you make yourself happy. And we had a home where we talked about this, and how you counted your blessings. I mean, we weren't religious at all, but how you, how you... (sighs) How you took energy from what's going right rather than what's going wrong. And he was a great mentor. He taught me this, and I think the dedication in my book is all about, you know, thanking my parents for teaching me that happiness, uh, is something that you can cultivate and treasure, because not everybody has it. And I think when I am in a sort of situation where things are tough, you can do things to change the chatter in your head, to realize that you're not the center of attention. You know, sometimes, you know, it's not about me. You know, not ev- not everybody's looking at me. Everybody's looking at their own life and thinking about their own problems. And I am very, very fortunate. I have a huge number of things that are going right for me, and I have the privilege of running Starling. And it is a privilege, and there's lots of things going wrong, and lots of pressures on me, but it's a great privilege to have.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:19 So do you see that as a... Your, your sort of coping mechanism there as a almost like a, almost like a childhood disposition that was taught to you? Like it's a, a perspective that kind of defaults to optimism. Seeing that the glasses are full, defaulting to gratitude. That's kind of acted as a protective...

Anne Boden 1:15:37 Yeah, I think it is. I'm still quite excited by it all. Right. So coming here today, I was excited.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:43 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:15:43 Right? This is-

Steven Bartlett 1:15:43 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:15:44 This is something which is... Look, I am ever so fortunate to be a person who's doing what I'm doing, to talking to you. That's gonna be broadcast. This is exciting.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:56 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:15:56 Uh, when I come back into London, you know, I'm driving back into London late at night and, you know, and I'm going through this city, I'm, I'm still excited. I'm like a kid that's coming to London for the first time. This is an exciting things to do. I'm... Yeah, I'm loving it all.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:17 Hmm. Such a strange question to ask, but, um, that is somewhat unusual, it feels. It feels like... Well, is it? Maybe it's just because (laughs) -

Anne Boden 1:16:32 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:16:33 ... the oth- (laughs) the conversation I had previously was so... You know, like the red phone by the bed Tom described, you know, on my floor.

Anne Boden 1:16:38 Yeah, I have a phone by the bed and it never leaves the, the... Yeah, the phone is by the bed all the time.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:44 And that's the like, the emergency, call me if there's a crisis phone.

Anne Boden 1:16:47 Yeah. But that's the job I get paid for.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:50 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:16:51 But there's a huge thing... There's a... There's a huge amount of things that come with this job. You know, I... You know, I appear up in front of the Treasury Select Committee and get grilled. I'm... You know, I have this sort of grilling from you.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:05 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:17:05 I, I, I... (sighs) I can talk to interesting people. I have the opportunity of building something I've always wanted. That's a huge, huge privilege.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:18 Hmm. I really think that's a really underestimated defense mechanism against life, is if your default position is to view the, you know, to count your blessings, as you say, and view the half as glass full, then it's, it's harder to slip into the trap of, um, uh, "My expectations are being unmet because of the difficulties of my life." And a lot of what we've discovered from this... Talking to guests on this podcast are when your expectations of how the world is meant to be going go unmet, then you f- slip away into unhappiness and misery. And yeah, you seem to have a, a default to gratitude essentially-

Anne Boden 1:17:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:53 ... which is-

Anne Boden 1:17:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:54 ... causing a very mentally sort of protective... Have you ever been to therapy? Have you ever had like any professional support in that regard?

Anne Boden 1:18:00 No.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:00 No?

Anne Boden 1:18:01 I read a lot.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:03 Hmm. That's good.

Anne Boden 1:18:03 I read, um, I read, mm-hmm, I read hundreds of books. I read, you know, I read every self-help book I get my hands on.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:14 (laughs)

Anne Boden 1:18:14 I read every single banking strategy book. I've always done it. I, I love understanding things.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:24 The, the personal... So this is interesting. One of the things that, um, you said, well, kind of two points, is that you don't have work-life balance.

Anne Boden 1:18:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:34 It's all... It's just all work.

Anne Boden 1:18:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:36 When people hear that they go... They f- sympathy, like, you know, they think-

Anne Boden 1:18:40 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:18:40 They think you're... No, 'ca- like, I feel a similar way to, to some degree. Maybe it's changed recently but, I... That was my life, and I don't want sympathy for it because I actually love what I'm doing every day. But then, you know, I read into your story and there's sort of connected points there where you say, um, about how women are sort of conditioned in our society to think happiness equals having, uh, 17 kids and a husband-

Anne Boden 1:19:04 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:04 ... and how you would like to do... You know, buck that narrative.

Anne Boden 1:19:08 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:08 Can you talk to me about that? So like the personal...

Anne Boden 1:19:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:11 I, I don't wanna call it sacrifice 'cause that's the loss of something-

Anne Boden 1:19:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:13 ... but the personal...... balance you have in your life. And also, you know, you talk openly about not having kids.

Anne Boden 1:19:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:20 Um...

Anne Boden 1:19:21 Look, you know, sort of, um, you know, the right man never came along.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:26 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:19:27 Uh, it wasn't something that I decided against. Uh, but there was never any assumption in the family home that I would get married or whatever. But the right man never came along. And as far as children, I never made the decision not to have children. Uh, just that, um, sort of I was busy and then it was too late.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:51 Hm.

Anne Boden 1:19:52 But I think that people compare, um, to quite an idyllic state of, you know, marriage and two children and them all living in a wonderful home. And, you know, sort of everything being, um, fantasized life of a family. Um, the majority of families are not like that. Um, I have... I am really, really happy that I've made the right decisions. And yes, it's a...

Anne Boden 1:20:26 I get asked about it occasionally. And brave people ask me about it.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:30 Yeah, yeah.

Anne Boden 1:20:30 You know, people who are not brave trying to go round it.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:33 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:20:33 Um, yeah. You know, but one day, perhaps I will marry. You never know.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:38 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:20:39 You know, the right man may come along. Um, it's unlikely to happen with children.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:45 I always struggled in... when I was running my business, to have any kind of relationship with anybody.

Anne Boden 1:20:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:50 I was a total failure 'cause I was obsessed, as you say, like work-life balance. It was just all work. I was in the office-

Anne Boden 1:20:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:55 ... Saturday and Sunday. And I found it incredibly hard to find someone that understood the peculiarity of my life dynamic. It was only upon leaving that business that I actually managed to, like, you know, m- like, higgle something together. Like, higgle the... you know, like put some pieces together, which is probably resembles a relationship now. But, um, uh-

Anne Boden 1:21:18 It's very difficult finding a man who's prepared to listen to me going on about my career for three hours.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:25 Hmm.

Anne Boden 1:21:26 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:21:27 We've had... It's not... No, we've had a lot of guests come here that are, you know, female founders that have said a very similar thing.

Anne Boden 1:21:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:33 And also, an interesting narrative, which I, I wanna talk about, which is, like, men can be emasculated. Uh, th- is this true? I... You know, uh, Chrissie came here, and she's a, she's a successful founder, and she said that, yeah, like, uh, uh, um, men can be emasculated by the success of a, a woman if she's, like, bringing home the bacon or if she's, you know, the career-driven one. Uh, do you find this to be true?

Anne Boden 1:21:56 Well, I... You know, I've had a lot of coaching from friends before going out on a date and going, "For goodness' sake, Ann, don't ask for the bill, okay? For goodness' sake, Ann, don't... you know, don't leave the table to answer a call, right?" So-

Steven Bartlett 1:22:08 (laughs) Goodness' sake.

Anne Boden 1:22:09 You've got, like, a really, really good deal coming up. "No, no, no, no, this is how it works, Ann, okay? You go on a date, and you pretend he's, he's, he's awesome, and you don't go off and answer your phone, and you don't try and pay the bill, okay? That's how it works." That how it works for most people. But, you know, sometimes work is more important.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:31 Wow. (laughs) Oh, God. And you... I... You... I read somewhere as well that you said that you could write a separate book about your dating-

Anne Boden 1:22:43 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:44 ... dating, uh, experiences.

Anne Boden 1:22:46 Yeah, done a lot of that. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:47 Done a lot of dating. Um-

Anne Boden 1:22:49 Doesn't work.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:50 Doesn't work.

Anne Boden 1:22:51 Doesn't work.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:52 And you, you, you pinpoint the way that you are in terms of your, like... your focuses, your ambitions, your pers-... you know, all of that stuff, as making it difficult. That's the thing that makes it difficult.

Anne Boden 1:23:05 (laughs) Look, if I put a lot of effort into it, I would've probably made something work.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:10 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:23:10 Um, the trouble is, I put a lot of effort into my job and my career.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:15 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:23:15 And I probably get a huge amount of satisfaction about... with that. And it's sort of taken priority.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:23 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:23:23 But that's great, you know. You know, I've... I've got a great job. Um, you know, I'm doing this sort of stuff.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anne Boden 1:23:32 You know-

Steven Bartlett 1:23:32 Yeah.

Anne Boden 1:23:32 ... you know, what could be better?

Steven Bartlett 1:23:34 Yeah.

Anne Boden 1:23:34 You know, sort of being in this situation where you can talk about things-

Steven Bartlett 1:23:39 Yeah.

Anne Boden 1:23:39 ... and you, and you have success.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:41 Yeah.

Anne Boden 1:23:42 Yeah, it's, it's good.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:43 As you re- reflect back on, you know, the, the, the Ann that started her career as an entrepreneur and the naivety that she must have undoubtably had going, you know... What, what would you... What was... Is, is some of the key sort of pieces of advice you would impart on her and say, "I just wish you knew this and be careful of this," and... (sighs)

Anne Boden 1:24:04 I, I, I think it's the, the question that people always give you the wrong sort of advice. What I, what I caution about is that there's a lot of people out there giving bad advice. Uh, because when you ask somebody about what you should do or how you raise fundraising or, you know, whatever you do about your business, they haven't got a good idea, so they give you something because they feel as they can't say, "I don't know." So be cautious of those mentors that actually don't know anything.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:40 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:24:41 And there's so many people who have... You know, the, the, the VC world is full of people who are, you know, mm-hmm, you know, finished their careers, that are wandering around VC land, trying to tell you what things work and how things work.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:58 That have never run a business, yeah.

Anne Boden 1:24:59 A lot of that is absolute rubbish and you have to just stop it. Um, one of the biggest lessons I learnt is a lot of the things that I knew, what I was absolutely, 100% certain of, was actually wrong. Right. So forget about it. The world's move on. Be relevant.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:19 And do you wanna sell Starling Bank? What's the plan? Do you wanna, you know, you wanna list it on the stock exchange? Do you want a, a big, uh, i- an incumbent bank to come along and buy the company so you can sail off to the Bahamas with that guy on the, on the boat? Or...

Anne Boden 1:25:31 No. I think that we'll probably list in a couple of years time. Um, you know, I wanted to be... I wanted the important. I want Starling to be something that changes financial services forever. I'm enjoying

Anne Boden 1:25:45 myself. You know, I'm... I'm not ready to quit. This is... I'm on a roll. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:25:57 (laughs) And you must have had some offers, right?

Anne Boden 1:25:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:59 'Cause, you know, a couple of people coming along saying-

Anne Boden 1:26:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:02 ... brown envelope, 100 mil.

Anne Boden 1:26:04 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:26:04 See you later. No?

Anne Boden 1:26:06 It's... Look, uh, it's a unique opportunity. You know, imagine, put yourself in my shoes. 1981, I came to London to start my career in banking and rocked up at Lloyds Bank as a graduate trainee. Nowadays, you know, I'm, I'm running an important bank in the UK. And I founded this bank.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:33 Mm-hmm.

Anne Boden 1:26:33 And it's much better than the incumbent banks and it's at the start of its sort of 300 years rather than at the end of it. Yeah, it's incredibly exciting. Um, yeah, I have to pinch myself. It's really happening.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:49 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you know what? It, it's, it's truly remarkable. And that you're right. I did give you a grilling there a bit on, on a lot of the, the key points.

Anne Boden 1:26:56 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:26:56 Because there is, you know, there is such a interesting banking narrat- banking war narrative going on in the fintech space at the moment.

Anne Boden 1:27:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:27:02 And, but, you know, the overarching thing is just, you know, I find your story to be just so incredible. And I find it to be, like, genuinely unbelievable because you say it in such an effortless way. You say, you talk about these events and y- even the fundraising stuff and, you know, the stereotypes of being a female founder, um, that doesn't fit the e- existing stereotypes of tech bros out in Silicon Valley that are all, like, 21 from Harvard and they're all dropouts. And to persevere against it all, I suspect is significantly, maybe 10X harder than you actually make out. Because, like, I know how hard it is anyway.

Anne Boden 1:27:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:27:37 But then when the, the deck is stacked against you in, uh, the ways that I, I know it, it is because I, I under- understand stereotypes and the, the climate and especially in the banking world. Like, what kind of lunatic starts a bank, right? And I, I was, I was fortunate enough to be slightly privy to some of the early processes of, like, getting a ban- banking application because we had a lot of fintech startups, including banks like Monzo approach us very early and ask us to help with the marketing.

Anne Boden 1:28:03 Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:04 So, and I, and then, and when I was sitting in the rooms maybe five, six years ago, they're all talking about eventually getting their banking licenses or something.

Anne Boden 1:28:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:13 And, uh, that corner was turned eventually. But it's just remarkable and it's unbelievable. And there's very few entrepreneurs in the UK or really anywhere in the world that I've encountered that really managed to y- take on a really stubborn incumbent in the, in th- as it relates to the banking industry here. Spotify is one of the examples I sometimes think of.

Anne Boden 1:28:34 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:34 'Cause, you know, there's no way you could make, you know, move, move away the rights and the music rights and move it to digital and then charge people. Like, so that is, that again, I, I consider Daniel Ek to be a lunatic.

Anne Boden 1:28:46 Oh. Oh.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:46 But-

Anne Boden 1:28:46 Yeah. Incredible.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:48 Yeah. It's, uh, I've considered this to be the same. So yeah, thank you for the inspiration. Thank you for the courage. And I think your story is one of, you know, it's one in, you know, 100 million. I do have one request though.

Anne Boden 1:28:59 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:59 And this is where the diary comes in.

Anne Boden 1:29:01 Okay. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:29:02 Okay. So, um, so what we do with all of our guests when they come on the show is they all write a question in the diary for the next guest.

Anne Boden 1:29:12 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:13 So our last guest wrote, wrote a question for you. Do you really understand the purpose of your life here on Earth?

Anne Boden 1:29:27 No, I don't. I think that I've... Nobody ever sort of discovers their purpose until probably too late. Um, and I think thinking about that question too hard is probably too difficult. I think the purpose of your life will only be discovered once it's too late.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:57 You don't think it's what you're doing now? Would you suspect it's, it's bigger?

Anne Boden 1:30:03 I think I'm on the start of a journey rather than the end. I think I want to do more than just make Starling the best bank in the world. I think Starling will do its bit to help people with their financial health. But I think it's also important to nudge society in the right direction. And I can do that with the platform of Starling.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:34 Nudging society in the right direction in terms of what?

Anne Boden 1:30:37 Yeah, fairness.

Steven Bartlett 1:30:39 Fairness, equality.

Anne Boden 1:30:40 Yes. I think the world is very unfair in lots of different ways. And it's not just fair between countries. There's very, very, you know, different people have different experiences in this life. You know, I have been extremely fortunate, but the girl growing up next door had probably