The 1% Mindset: How to 1000x Your Success & Productivity! - Manchester United Director Of Sport

Sir Dave Brailsford 0:00 I'm very, very lucky that I get to help other people be the best version of themselves.

Steven Bartlett 0:04 Sir David Brailsford, to many, he's one of the greatest winners of our generation.

Sir Dave Brailsford 0:10 If you can get a little bit of insight, why do I feel how I'm feeling? Why do I respond like I do? And then you realize and think, "Wow, a lot of my behavior, a lot of my life was driven by emotion. It wasn't driven by the real me." The best thing ever if it happens, and if it doesn't, then you might be absolutely devastated, but you gotta live it as a dream. And you gotta understand that actually worrying about the consequence of an event is detrimental to the process and the performance and the, the chances of you achieving that event. Perfection. Perfection was so far away, that there's no point in attainment for... because we're gonna fail every day. So I thought, "Well, let's have a little progression." Because right then what could we do by next week that we're not doing this week? What little things could we do? There's a million things that could impact performance. And it, and it works. It works 100% it works. Been doing it 20 years. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 0:57 Quick one. Can you do me a favor if you're listening to this and hit the subscribe button, the follow button, wherever you're listening to this podcast? Thank you so much. Sir David Brailsford. I've tried since this podcast began to get Sir David Brailsford to come here and have a conversation with me. So, having this conversation today and being able to share it with you is one of the highlights, all time, in this podcast's history. I don't think it's an understatement to say that he has worked miracles with teams, taking teams in cycling that were underachieving and making them undeniably the greatest team in their world, and maybe of a generation. He's famous for this concept of marginal gains. It's a concept which I speak to my team about every single day, and maybe that's why I wanted to sit here with him. Today you will understand, without a shadow of a doubt, how to build a successful team. That's what you'll come away with. You'll understand how to be successful personally. You'll understand how to inspire those around you to be successful. But the surprising thing, which I think you'll also take away from this, is the cost of success, and we don't often take enough time to ask ourself that very honest question, "Is the climb worth the view?" But by the end of this podcast, I think you'll be closer, in your life, to having an answer for that question. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays)

Steven Bartlett 2:37 A conscious sense of outsiderness from a very early age, um, you said that once upon a time, and it rang very, um, true to me as well, and I found it to be a very relatable thing.

Sir Dave Brailsford 2:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 2:48 Where did that come from? Where did your conscious sense of outsiderness come from?

Sir Dave Brailsford 2:53 Uh, it's funny when you say that, because it resonates, it really does. So I was, uh, very young, just been born, and my parents, uh, my dad really, uh, decided to move from Derby, where I was born, to North Wales and, and buy a house in Snowdonia. Very keen climber, and he wanted to go to, to the proximity of the mountains, so he moved over there. And, um, I grew up, it was a very, very Welsh, uh, dominated, Welsh-speaking little village called, uh, Dene Yollwng. I went to primary school there and grew up speaking first language Welsh. All my friends were Welsh. Everybody was Welsh, pretty much apart from my parents.

Steven Bartlett 3:30 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 3:30 And, um, and I had this sort of conundrum then. I didn't probably realize it at the time, but I certainly on reflection, you know, look back, and, you know, I was very, very much in this Welsh community, very, very tight community. And, and I'd go home and my parents were obviously English parents and, and I felt, you know, my dad didn't really conform. He was there to climb. He was there as this, one of these outsiders who'd come in there to, you know, get up into the mountains and, um, and I think that, that left me challenged I think, because I was so wanted to be the same as all my mates, same as everybody else, part of the tribe, part of the gang. And yet somewhere inside I felt maybe I wasn't quite, you know, I wasn't i- I wasn't fully immersed in it, you know. It wasn't quite there. And don't get me wrong, I, I loved it and I, and I still, I go back there and I love it. I've got, you know, my great friends there, my mum still lives there, but I never actually quite, quite got that full sense of I belong there, you know? So I was always felt that little bit on the outside, I guess.

Steven Bartlett 4:36 You went on to be a great anomaly in what you've achieved in your life and success.

Sir Dave Brailsford 4:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:42 And I look, I always, I'm always, um, I guess I'm a bit nosy, but I'm al- and I did a little bit of childhood psychology when I was in school. So I try and look at, like, which, what the parental dynamics were that might have made someone that little bit more relentless and that little bit more hardworking.

Sir Dave Brailsford 4:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:56 And I sat here with Eddie Hearn and I go, "Oh, your dad."

Sir Dave Brailsford 4:59 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:59 I could tell the way his dad was, that ruthless intensity clearly rubbed off on him at a young age.

Sir Dave Brailsford 5:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:04 And I was reading about what you, how you described your dad.

Sir Dave Brailsford 5:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:07 And it seemed to be, dare I say it, a little bit similar to...

Sir Dave Brailsford 5:10 Mm-hmm. Yeah, he was orphaned very, when he was very young. So he lost his mum when he was five, lost his dad when he was seven. And, uh, of course, for anybody, that's gonna have a bit of a big impact, and I think it, he had a, you know, life-changing impact on him. And, um, I think he, he was then fostered and, um, you know, he tells a story when he was, he was growing up in a, in a foster family. Foster family they eat together and they'd make him eat in another room and, you know, not... (laughs) as if he was tough enough, I guess. And I think that's had a profound effect on who he was. And, and he became, um, somebody who was very much, uh, you know, driven to, to make his own way. And I think, you know, that was, um, one of his core, core sort of deep-seated drives and values is that he, he pushed hard and he was always about being professional. It was all about working hard, make your own way.You know, don't rely on anybody else to do anything for you. Do it for yourself. And, um, and he, he drilled that into us. And I think we just lived it really.

Steven Bartlett 6:10 And cycling, uh, you were very into cycling from a young age. I, I heard you used to wait on Thursdays for the sort of Cycling newspaper to arrive.

Sir Dave Brailsford 6:18 Yeah. That's Cycling Weekly, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:19 Cycling Weekly, yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 6:20 It's a little magazine, was a bit of a, a cult magazine, you know, quite a niche magazine. And that used to arrive, get delivered on a Thursday. And I'd wait with great anticipation and, and, you know, it was one of those when the, the newspapers came round, you get your Cycling Weekly and then you'd sit there and read about all the results and who'd done what. And course there was no, nothing on internet.

Steven Bartlett 6:39 Oh. (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 6:39 There was no, there was no, there's no other way of getting the news, you know.

Steven Bartlett 6:42 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 6:43 And, and, you know, in the back, there was all these little sections where all the results were, all the race results. And you'd look to see who'd done what and study it all. It was, it was like a real, you know, it's a real part of the cycling culture. And still is, to be fair. Cycling Weekly's still going despite all of the changes in-

Steven Bartlett 7:00 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 7:01 ... social media and everything else. But, um, I mean, it's, uh, it's a real cornerstone of my growing up with the sport. That's for sure.

Steven Bartlett 7:08 You, you then go to school.

Sir Dave Brailsford 7:10 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 7:10 You go to uni- ... Do you go to university? Did you-

Sir Dave Brailsford 7:11 No, no.

Steven Bartlett 7:12 ... do business?

Sir Dave Brailsford 7:12 I left school. I didn't enjoy school at all.

Steven Bartlett 7:14 Did an apprenticeship?

Sir Dave Brailsford 7:14 No. No, no. Well, no, I left school when I was 16.

Steven Bartlett 7:17 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 7:18 First day I could leave school, I was out.

Steven Bartlett 7:19 Oh, wow.

Sir Dave Brailsford 7:19 I was done. Yeah, I didn't enjoy school.

Steven Bartlett 7:22 Why?

Sir Dave Brailsford 7:23 Don't know. I just, I didn't like being confined. I didn't like having to sit in chemistry lessons and I, I just didn't... Pfft. It wasn't for me, you know? I just didn't enjoy it. And it wasn't that I couldn't do it, I don't think. I just didn't enjoy the environment. I enjoyed the, the PE and I enjoyed being with my friends and all that kind of stuff, but I didn't... I don't know. I just didn't enjoy that educational... I felt trapped. I felt enclosed and, um, and I don't know. I didn't re- ... I wasn't really motivated to, to learn at that time, you know? I was, I was off doing other things really

Narrator 7:53 the man.

Steven Bartlett 7:53 Do, do you think because you had so much free- freedom in your, in your childhood home, you then struggled going to places where you didn't have that, that same level of freedom?

Sir Dave Brailsford 8:00 Yeah. Well, I certainly like autonomy. There's no doubt about that, you know? And I think it's probably there since childhood, you know? Because I did, I did, I, I enjoyed quite a lot of freedom growing up. But I think the ... it's quite interesting because somewhere in the back of my mind, I knew at some point I was gonna have to go and, you know, I'd have to get a learn or... yeah, felt this kind of responsibility for an education somewhere. But I just wasn't ready, you know? And, um, and so I thought there was the, uh, there's what I should do and what I wanted to do, I think, and there's a little bit what I should do kind of came along. And then in the end, that's when I sort of thought, "Well, actually, I, I, I want some freedom, I want to explore, I wanna go on an adventure, I wanna do something different." And-

Steven Bartlett 8:41 It's so, so funny you say-

Sir Dave Brailsford 8:42 ... yeah, left it all behind.

Steven Bartlett 8:42 ... so many of the

Steven Bartlett 8:43 guests that sit here, including Jimmy Carr, it very reminded me of him, have that moment usually in their early 20s where they, as you've perfectly described it, there's the thing they should do, usually what their parents want them to do-

Sir Dave Brailsford 8:53 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 8:54 ... uh, what society's tal- told them to do and what they want to do.

Sir Dave Brailsford 8:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 8:57 And in Jimmy's case, it was like quit everything and go and be a comedian, get paid no money-

Sir Dave Brailsford 9:01 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:02 ... because-

Sir Dave Brailsford 9:02 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:02 ... that's what he wanted to do and take all those unpaid gigs.

Sir Dave Brailsford 9:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:05 For you, you set off on a bike-

Sir Dave Brailsford 9:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:08 ... to France.

Sir Dave Brailsford 9:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:09 That was your breaking out of Wales moment, right?

Sir Dave Brailsford 9:11 Yeah. And I kind of got this, um ... Uh, it didn't happen overnight, but slowly but surely, I started to really, really get passionate about cycling. Like, really the sport of cycling kind of it had the freedom maybe, but it was a sport of suffering. It was a sport of, of sacrifice. It was, it was a tough sport. And I liked that. And I liked the idea that you were ... it was only you, you know? This ... if you could, you know, it's like the head and heart really. If you, if you're intelligent and, and, and you could figure out how to train and then you had the heart, the commitment, and the desire and the passion to suffer a little bit, and how deep could you go in, you know, that attracted me to cycling. So if you were good, you were good, and if you weren't good, you weren't good. And then, uh, you, uh, played a lot of football in, in all the little, all the sort of junior teams and everything else as we were growing up. And there, you could, you could have a great game and lose or you could be, you know, terrible and win, the team could win.

Steven Bartlett 10:05 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 10:05 And I kind of liked the, you know, this idea that if what you do really counted in terms of your own performance as it were. That-

Steven Bartlett 10:13 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 10:13 ... sort of chimed with me. Anyway, I k- I kind of got this passion for the Tour de France and this sort of thing that was kind of happening somewhere in the world. And the more I looked at it, it sort of felt quite, quite gladiatorial, and the mountains and the ... you know, it's, it felt just epic, a three-week race. And, and all I wanted to do is go and, and, and see if I could watch this race. And I got the chance to go and I stood there and I got this passion for it. And in the end, I thought, "Right, I wanna go and try and win that thing." And so I sort of said to my, uh, mum that, "Right, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna jack everything in and I'm gonna go and go to France and, and see if I can become a professional cyclist." And, uh, she was mortified, horrified actually.

Steven Bartlett 10:56 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 10:56 "You can't. You know what you're thinking? (laughs) You can't go." You know, all this kind of stuff. And I said to my dad, I said, "Listen, I'm gonna jack it all in and I'm gonna go," and he went, "Yes!"

Steven Bartlett 11:04 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 11:05 He loved it, yeah. That's all I needed to hear, you know? Once I heard that, then I was like, "Right. It's okay. I'm going." And so I got a single ticket to, uh, Grenoble and got on my bike in a cardboard box, rucksack, uh, 700 quid, and got a ticket (laughs) to Bangor station in North Wales and off I went. I don't think I'd ever really kind of had to cross... Remember having to cross London on the tube with my bike in a box and rucksack, that was a real ordeal for me. Got down to, uh, Dover, crossed on a ferry, got to Calais, and I was sitting there and somebody came along and said, you know, "Do you want a coffee or whatever, or a drink in, um," you know, on the train. And it kind of dawned on me then, I thought-

Steven Bartlett 11:45 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 11:45 ... "Oh shit." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 11:47 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 11:47 "I haven't got a clue what's going on here." (laughs) When I got there, I was trying to find out I wanted to go to a place called Argentiere. That was my destination. And, um, I didn't know there was two.

Steven Bartlett 11:58 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 11:58 And so there's two Argentieres, it turns out. So I went, I was trying to ask this guy in, um-To, to buy a ticket to Argentiere, and he was, he- he's just being awkward. He, you know, he could see I couldn't speak French, and obviously, he wasn't making much of an effort either. And then these two quite young guys came along, and they said, "Oh, can we help you? You know, we speak French and, and English." I'm like, "Oh, thanks." So they helped out, and it turned out they were Polish, and they were two lads trying to defect from Poland (laughs) 'cause it was still communist. And they were trying to get into university in, um, in Grenoble. And so the very first night I had in France, we slept head to toe, sleeping bags on this thing, and these two Polish... Like, they were petrified-

Steven Bartlett 12:34 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 12:34 ... and every time they'd see any, any kind of steps or something coming, footsteps, they'd jump up, both uprising like, "Shit-

Steven Bartlett 12:40 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 12:40 ... we're gonna get caught." Anyway, so I jumped on a train, six o'clock in the morning, jumped on a train to where I s- thought I was going, and I actually ended up in Switzerland. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 12:49 Fucking hell.

Sir Dave Brailsford 12:49 So that was a bit-

Steven Bartlett 12:51 Oh yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 12:51 Yeah, I was like, "Whoa."

Steven Bartlett 12:52 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 12:52 By which time, the fun had worn off, you know-

Steven Bartlett 12:54 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 12:54 ... I must admit. So I got a train, the same train back to Grenoble again, spent my second night on the same platform, the same bench, and then eventually the next day got to where I wanted to go in, uh, Argentiere, and whoa, that was a bit of an ordeal.

Steven Bartlett 13:07 But why were you, why were you going there anyway? What was the, what was the aim of, when you arrived at that destination, what were you thinking?

Sir Dave Brailsford 13:11 Well, I just wanted to be a, I wanted to be a professional cyclist, you know. I wanted to find a way of getting into a professional cycling team, and, you know, I then... there, there's no, how do you do that? Do you know what I mean? Back in the day when cycling was very much a, a niche sport in, in Britain, there wasn't any obvious kind of route, so the club structure, the amateur club structure, um, in France, was very, very strong and, and they were like feeder teams to the professional teams. So if you get over there, get yourself in an amateur team and if you're any, any good, you'd work your way up, you know. So I thought, "Right, it's what I'm gonna do."

Steven Bartlett 13:43 Did, did you have a meeting arranged with an amateur team?

Sir Dave Brailsford 13:45 No, no, no. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 13:46 So you just showed up.

Sir Dave Brailsford 13:47 So I just went, yeah. And then I, um... So I looked for the end of a... I looked for... Went to the end of a race, waited till everybody arrived, and you know, finished the race, and there were all these, like, car... Didn't have the buses back in those days. There was... The cars were there, and they came, and so I looked around, chose the nicest kit, as you would.

Steven Bartlett 14:02 Choose the nicest kit. (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 14:04 Chose the kit. (laughs) Seemed like a good start. And, uh, I went up to them and asked if I could race, and they kind of, "What?" (laughs) They were like, "What?" And, um, kinda chuckled and, and they thought I was a bit odd. And then they sort of passed me onto the next team, and the next team, and the next team, and eventually, I spoke to one, like, little group, and a guy came over and he said, "Oh, look, we're," um... He spoke English, and he said, uh, "We're from Saint-Etienne, and, uh, if you can get yourself over to Saint-Etienne, we train as a whole team together on a Wednesday." He wrote me down the address, and said, "Right, come here at nine o'clock on a Wednesday, and come train with us." So I started training with them, and, and that was it. I s- I lived there for three years then.

Steven Bartlett 14:42 Three years.

Sir Dave Brailsford 14:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:43 And eventually, you know, you admit that you realized at some point you weren't gonna make it.

Sir Dave Brailsford 14:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:47 You weren't gonna win the... (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 14:48 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, that was a shame, really. But then I look back on it now and I think if I'd have known now what I know... You know, people say, "Well, what, what would you change?" You know, if I, if I could go back in time, I think if I knew what I know now in terms of training and nutrition and everything else, um, you know, I'm pretty sure I could have done a much better job. But I decided, for some bizarre reason, I decided I didn't wanna eat, um, particularly didn't... Wanted to really reduce my fat intake and just, just eat carbohydrate and hardly any protein. And so I stopped, um, I stopped eating meat. I became, you know, vegetarian, and then I realized, no, I was just nailed all the time. So I never really optimized the chance that I had. Which kind of makes me think now of when I got younger, you know, young talented, uh, athletes or people who wanna try it out, you can't just leave 'em alone, you know. Just talent alone not always gonna get you there, is it? You know, and they need, you need to be in the right environment, same as my education. When I was young growing up, um, um, you know, I'm a bright enough guy, I think, um, I just wasn't ready to learn. I wasn't in the right environment to learn. I could have learned, but I didn't learn at the time. And that, that... I kind of reflect quite a lot on that really now, in terms of creating the right environments, but to people to be able to just progress, you know. What's it take for a human being to pro- progress?

Steven Bartlett 16:06 Mm-Hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 16:06 And, you know, I think my role is to try and create those environments and support people to do that really. And I think I take a lot of learnings from that, you know.

Steven Bartlett 16:14 I wanna, wanna s- get to some of those key learnings that you've had. Um, to, to take a step forward in your story, you then off, go off to university, which is actually quite surprising. You do a sport science degree for a couple of years.

Sir Dave Brailsford 16:25 Yeah. It was early years of sport science. It was kind of developing, you know, and the idea of sports nutrition was developing. The idea of sport psychology was just developing. And I started to read around this, I thought, "God, I love this stuff. I absolutely..." I couldn't get enough. I couldn't get enough. So the idea of eventually when I realized I wasn't gonna be good enough to, you know, make the, make the top end of, of professional cycling, I thought, "Right, well, I'll go back now 'cause I really want to learn." And so I went back to university, and I was just absolutely... Wasn't interested in anything to do with, like, freshers week or going out. I just wanted to learn, and that was it. So I met every, every one of the lecturers, asked if I could have a meeting and said, "Right, I want you to tell me how you're gonna teach me. I wanna make sure that I, I learn as much as possible. How are you gonna do that?" And, of course-

Steven Bartlett 17:13 Really?

Sir Dave Brailsford 17:13 ... I've come back since-

Steven Bartlett 17:14 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 17:14 ... and they're like... (laughs) A bit full on.

Steven Bartlett 17:16 You ............................ (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 17:16 When I first got there. And, um, and so I, I came out of that, and I, I, I loved... I absolutely loved every minute of being at, uh, university. I loved it. I loved meeting other people. I loved people that got the same passion. It was a topic that I just couldn't get enough of. I loved the s- the psychology and the, and the sport psychology, and I came out of all of that, and really wanted to go in, you know, sort of pursue the sport psychology area. But it just felt at the time, it was too fluffy, it was... You, you know, the top pro teams weren't really... It's too... Like all too macho to-

Steven Bartlett 17:53 Mm-Hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 17:53 ... talk about, you know, psychology and subje... It wasn't getting any traction at the time. So I thought, "God, I'm not sure if I could make a career out of this." So I ended up, like, I worked a bit longer in, um... I went back in and worked, um, in the cycle industry.And then I decided to go and do an MBA. Thought, "I don't know anything about business." I really don't know anything about business. So I thought, "I'll... I'd like to know about that," so I went back to, uh, Sheffield Business School and did an MBA. And, and same there, I just wanted to... I wanted to learn. So I think if you're motivated to learn and want to learn, it changes, something changes in your mind, doesn't it?

Steven Bartlett 18:26 Oh, it's amazing to hear that.

Sir Dave Brailsford 18:27 Yeah. Like, absolutely something changes. If you can... I don't know. If you unlock the desire, you're not learning because it's a... You're not learning because you have to or, you know, it's not learning because it's, um, a must-do kind of thing, but you're learning 'cause you want to, then, then it- it... The whole process... Life's learning, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 18:45 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 18:45 Life's all about learning, really. And, um, and so I think if you can unlock that, then, then you're onto something. And luckily, I think, um, I think I did. And then eventually, th- the first contact I had with the British Olympic program was back in 1997 with a guy called Peter Keen. In Atlanta, Britain won one gold medal, I think, in the entire Olympic Games, which is ridiculously bad.

Steven Bartlett 19:07 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 19:07 I mean, it... (laughs) Yeah, it's so bad. It's like, can't even imagine how that happened, you know? But they did, anyway. And at that point, um, John Major brought in the National Lottery with the view that half of the money, half of the profit was gonna go into culture and the arts and, um, and the rest was gonna go into sport, and the real kind of goal of sport was to get the country up the Olympic table, which was unheard of, you know? It's l- it's like they were all amateur governing bodies. It was like a dream scenario. It... And, um, and cycling was very, very fortunate that they had a guy at the time called Peter Keen, very, very bright guy, visionary guy, and he wrote a, a beautiful plan, amazing, amazing plan. Then I kind of met him in, in and around 1997, and I got my own little consultancy business at the time, and we start, I started to help out, and I got more engaged, and I thought, "God, this is... this is a combination of everything I've done sort of in my life, really." You know? You've got the, the sporting side, the performance planning side. You've got the psychology of it all. It's new. It's like could be a first time ever kind of scenario. The ambition is amazing. And there's a bit of business wrapped in there as well, you know? So it's... I just saw that, and I thought, "Right, I'm getting my elbows out."

Steven Bartlett 20:19 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 20:20 "And I'm not missing that chance." You know? It's like I thought, "Right, this is my calling, and I'm going for it."

Steven Bartlett 20:24 I love... I... So much of that I, I wanted to pick up on. The, the point you made first about learning, it resonates so strongly with me. Again, um, I was kicked out of school, but-

Sir Dave Brailsford 20:33 Ah.

Steven Bartlett 20:33 ... just exceptionally obsessed with learning as an adult.

Sir Dave Brailsford 20:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:37 And it goes to, speaks to the fact that, um-

Sir Dave Brailsford 20:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:40 ... this... The reason my attendance was 30% in school was I was being pushed to walk down an alley I didn't wanna walk down.

Sir Dave Brailsford 20:46 Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Steven Bartlett 20:46 You know what I mean?

Sir Dave Brailsford 20:47 Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally, totally.

Steven Bartlett 20:48 And everyone's unmotivated when you try and get them to do something that they intrinsically don't wanna do, right?

Sir Dave Brailsford 20:52 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:53 And this is, I think, a lot of the problem with the schooling system, but when I ref-... As you were talking, I was reflecting all of these messages I get from kids who, like, label themselves as unmotivated, but in whose eyes, right? In the eyes of their parents who want them to be a doctor-

Sir Dave Brailsford 21:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:06 ... or in the eyes of society that wants them to do a nine-to-five?

Sir Dave Brailsford 21:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:08 But I, I reject the idea that they are unmotivated, you know?

Sir Dave Brailsford 21:12 Oh, a million percent, I couldn't agree more. You know, and I've s-... I've worked with a lot of people over the years, and, um, I think you gotta find out what, what's their... what's an individual's intrinsic motivate... what's driving somebody inside, what they really wanna do, and you've gotta unleash that in the end.

Steven Bartlett 21:26 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 21:26 You know, that's what life's about, isn't it, really?

Steven Bartlett 21:29 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 21:29 There's nobody... There shouldn't be any... We shouldn't be pigeonholed, and, and there shouldn't be lines and, and lanes. And I'm very, very, very lucky that I try and get to help other people be the best version of themselves, basically. And you think... You know, it, it... When you, when you no longer compete for yourself, and you think, "Right, I'm gonna be judged on somebody else's performance," that's what people judge me on. They go like, "Well, did somebody else win a race?" Not me. I can't... You know, I'm never gonna win a race. But th- that... It's like, "Did somebody else win a race?" And then you realize, "Well, if I'm gonna be judged on, on somebody else's performance, I better get pretty good at understanding how to optimize and help somebody be the best they could possibly be." And then you think, "Well, what, what does that look like? Well, how do you... How... What... Where's the s-... Where's... What is that?" You know? And that's where you think, "Well, let's take the human being as a, as a thing." (laughs) And you think, "How do you get... help a human being be the best they could possibly be?" Are there certain things that, if you can generally get those things right, it helps an individual, in the main, be the best version of themselves? But the first thing you gotta ask is, like, "Is that person... What is that person's internal intrinsic drive?" 'Cause if it's not aligned, if they're not really committed and really driven and excited to what you would like them to be, it doesn't matter how much you'd like (laughs) them to be. If they're not, they're not, and there's nothing you can do about that, you know? But if there's a little bit of a flicker of, of, of, of the light burning there, you can turn that up, I think, and you can turn it down. You can very easily turn it off by mistake, or deliberately if you're s-... if that way minded. But I think you do... The, the very essence of people achieving things is, is they've gotta be driven or they got... there's gotta be a, a reward. I mean, avoiding... You know, avoidance is a very, very strong motivator as well, I think, and, you know, maybe I, I'd argue that maybe in my life, I was avoiding failure or d-... you know, that... rather than being dragged towards the positive emotion of, of winning. And the positive emotion of winning for me isn't that great, unfortunately. I wish it was. But avoiding failure is massive driver for me. So, um... And so, you know, either way, you figure out what somebody's drive is, and then you help them. Then you think about what you need to do to create the environment around somebody to optimize what they're doing, and then, and then you've really gotta put yourself in somebody else's shoes and forget yourself, forget your preconcept, really genuinely sort of say, "Right, I'm gonna stand in this per- person's shoes. I'm gonna try and see what life looks like for them and feel what life, life looks like for them and really understand, regardless of what any preconceptions I might have, what, what does that feeling look like, and what do they need?"What would the best thing I could do? What do they need to help or support? The more you go through that, the more you kinda recognize as we're all different, but there are some common denominators deep down inside, I think. And, um, and if you take the time to listen to people, they might not wanna tell you first and foremost, but if you dig away at it, you know, eventually people will tell you what works for them, what they like, what they don't like. And if you listen carefully, you know, people, you get a bit- give them a bit of ownership, and they'll tell you, you know. And then- and- and- and that is probably one of the most powerful drivers, I think, that- that exists really.

Steven Bartlett 24:55 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 24:55 You know, you can put a gun to somebody's head, ask them to jump up and down, they'll jump up and down. You cock it, you cock the trigger and say, "Jump higher," they'll jump higher, or they'll try to anyway. And then you put it away, and- and- and you walk away. And- and they're not gonna... That- that is not a pleasant experience. It's used a lot, and it's used a lot in sport actually. And so less so now, but certainly has been in the past. And, um, but your performance is gonna be inconsistent, I think, through that, and that is certainly not gonna be a very pleasurable experience. And- and I think by going down the route of trying to find people's carrots, as it were, I mean, you'll have known, I'm sure you've- I think you've- you've interviewed Steve, haven't you?

Steven Bartlett 25:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 25:33 Steve Peters, I mean, amazing guy.

Steven Bartlett 25:34 Oh, yeah. Unbelievable.

Sir Dave Brailsford 25:35 And, um, and his work, I think, is just phenomenal, and- and something I buy into. But I- I do believe there is carrot not stick.

Steven Bartlett 25:43 On that point of, um, finding out what their true motivation is-

Sir Dave Brailsford 25:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:48 ... what they truly want, and checking that it's aligned with yours as a coach or as a team-

Sir Dave Brailsford 25:52 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:53 ... if you ask somebody, they'll typically give you the what they think you want to hear answer.

Sir Dave Brailsford 25:57 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:57 So if- if I was sat in front of you, and you asked me, and I was new to your team, I'd say, "I wanna be a world champion."

Sir Dave Brailsford 26:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 26:01 'Cause I think that's what you wanna hear.

Sir Dave Brailsford 26:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 26:02 How do you see past that? I'm asking this because a lot of people have people in their lives, whether it's a friend or a sibling-

Sir Dave Brailsford 26:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 26:09 ... or a son or a daughter who they're trying to motivate to be something, and often failing because-

Sir Dave Brailsford 26:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 26:15 ... they want it more than that person wants it for themself.

Sir Dave Brailsford 26:17 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 26:18 How do you see past that? Um, is there a technique? Is it just intuitive?

Sir Dave Brailsford 26:23 Well, I think you gotta, y- you know, as soon as I sit down in some- in front of somebody and they think, "Okay, this guy's got some kind of influence over what happens to me," then it's biased immediately.

Steven Bartlett 26:33 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 26:33 And, of course, if you don't recognize that, if I just take at face value what people are telling me now, then that's, um, it- it- it's naive, I think, really, and I think you gotta go beyond that, like you say. And I think most people have a network, um, you know, and- and- and you can identify. If you watch the spheres of influence or the- the kind of who's influencing who and who- who has good relationships with who, you know, if I ask you now what your drivers are in this scenario, in the- in the scenario we're currently in, you'll kind of-

Steven Bartlett 27:02 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 27:02 ... think about what you're gonna say, really.

Steven Bartlett 27:04 Yeah, yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 27:04 Whereas, I think if you took- if I took- give me a- give me a couple of weeks, I think I could piece together slowly but surely by chatting to you, chatting to other people, asking the right questions, giving you some time, you know, different- different kind of environments, and-

Steven Bartlett 27:17 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 27:17 ... some formal, some informal, slowly but surely you- you- you could piece together a relatively good picture of where you think somebody's at. Is it a person who's driven by, you know, a- a like order and discipline and process, or is it somebody who wants harmony? Is it somebody who wants to be life and soul of the party and out there and express themselves? Or is it equally somebody who, you know, wants to please others? And if it is pleasing others, then who is it? It's the parents. Quite often I see that really. And then, um, you know, you just piece it all together. And once you have that, then you're armed-

Steven Bartlett 27:53 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 27:53 ... with information. You're armed with something which is you should really then respond and- and- and think carefully about, you know, what is this person all about? You know, can you draw a map of somebody? Can you really map out somebody's sort of drivers, who they are, what you think their- their influences are, what do they really want, what's their- you know, what's pulling them and what's pushing them?

Steven Bartlett 28:14 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 28:15 And, um, and I think when you get into that kind of realm of high performers and people who are really pushing themselves to extreme levels, there's something pulling or pushing them pretty hard normally. And trying to just understand that and dig a little bit around that, at least, like I say, it gives you the, you know... I think it's an obligation for somebody in- in our kind of roles, as it were, to make the effort to make sure you do take the time to fully understand somebody. And-

Steven Bartlett 28:43 Have you encountered instances in your career where someone's got so much talent but they're just lacking in drive, and no matter what you've done-

Sir Dave Brailsford 28:51 100%.

Steven Bartlett 28:52 Yeah. And what do you do in those situations?

Sir Dave Brailsford 28:53 Well, in our world, you wouldn't work with them. You know, I wouldn't work with them. I- I'd support them and be very, very... you know, not- not un- un- unpleasant or unkind or everything else, but it's not gonna work. That's the, you know... you have to have- you have to have that commitment and that drive and, you know, that's gotta be there. If that's not there, then don't go past square one really.

Steven Bartlett 29:14 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 29:14 You know, and when you're young, you know, you can perform and get to a very high standard on your talent, but then when you get to the top of the top, as it were, and there's maybe five or six people who have this- a similar level of talent, and- and some can get the best out of themselves and get that little bit... You know, it's like there's- you can get a- a normal kind of high level of performance, and then every now and again you get this like discretionary level of performance, that little bit on top thinking, "Oh, wow, that was absolutely me or you at- at your best." And- and- and we're not in the business of that, you know, the- the high level of performance. We're in the business of trying to get that discretionary performance as- as often as possible when it really matters.

Steven Bartlett 29:54 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 29:54 And that's what, you know, that's what we really gotta think about. And it's unlikely that you'll get that on talent alone. And even in the most sort of out there sort of talents, um, who can be flamboyant or do the unexpected, et cetera, they've nearly all... it- it- it's- it- they're- they're all committed and very, very, very bought into and driven by what they're doing.

Steven Bartlett 30:16 Yeah.Quick one. I can't talk about Huel enough in my life, especially right now. Going into the end of the year, I've got incredibly, exceptionally busy. And it's really interesting, because what we tend to see at this time of year is the first thing that goes is our diet, quickly followed by our fitness. And we see that in the data across multiple surveys. However, a really useful crutch during this period where the seasons have changed and we're starting to behave a little bit differently is making sure your fridge is stocked with things that are nutritionally complete, healthy, and that are gonna be convenient for you to consume without compromising your health. And that is where, ladies and gentlemen, Huel comes in. And they now have four brand new flavors. They have the salted caramel flavor, absolutely love. They have the cinnamon swirl flavor, the number one new flavor, in my opinion, which is really surprising. Iced coffee caramel, and they have the strawberries and cream flavor. If you're gonna try any of the new flavors, please do try the cinnamon swirl and let me know what you think. It's an absolute unexpected champion of the new flavors. (page turns)

Steven Bartlett 31:14 That word "commitment" is, um, the first letter in your acronym, C.O.R.E.-

Sir Dave Brailsford 31:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:19 ... which is part, it's, it's a philosophy you're known for. What is this C.O.R.E. philosophy? What is that acrony-acronym, and, uh, what, w- what does it stand for?

Sir Dave Brailsford 31:27 Well, to, to be fair to, you know, I just mentioned Steve Peters. I think, um, you know, one of the great things I think that I've been very, very fortunate to, to have happen in my life was that, uh, we, I met Steve back in, I think it was 2002, something li- you know, around that. I, I was always into, you know, I liked psychology. Obviously, I'd studied psychology, but I couldn't quite, it wasn't quite input/output enough. It wasn't... I don't know. It didn't feel quite solid enough at times. And then, uh, we had an athlete who had, um, you know, had a, a bit of an issue and, um, somebody within our medical team had been a student of Steve's at the, uh, school of medicine in, uh, in, uh, Sheffield. And they s- said, "Well, we've gotta ask this guy to come across," and he did, and, and he did this amazing piece of work (laughs) with, with, with this athlete. I thought, "Wow, I really gotta meet this guy." And so I sat down, uh, with Steve, and he's a psychiatrist, not a psychologist, obviously, a forensic psychiatrist. And he sat down and he said, "Right, well, here's my mental kind of map," as it were, "and this is how your brain works, and this is the different parts of your brain think differently. And, you know, y- you know, you do realize that this different, um, your blood goes to different areas and, and that's... so you'll be driven by e- em- emotion, or logic, or by past experiences, et cetera." And I was like, "Whoa, okay, this is really interesting." And that, what I liked about him, he was like, "If you do this, then that. And you should do this, not that." And he's quite prescriptive, um, in a very neutral way, but quite strong. And, um, I really liked that. Really, really liked that. So I thought, "Wow, this guy (laughs) would be absolutely dynamite in sport." And so Steve was still working in, um, in the n- uh, NHS, and he was actually working at Rampton at the time as well with, you know, the mass murderers and the psychopaths and all of that. And so I tried to persuade him, I said, "Steve, come on, you've gotta come and work in sport." And, and eventually, you know, he, he did, to be fair. He came and worked full time, and it was just an amazing period, really. Because we sat down and said, "Right, forget cycling for a minute. Let's think about the human brain, the human being, and how do we create the best possible environment for people to perform?" And, um, and that's where the C.O.R.E. principle came from with Steve in the first instance. So it was like, you know, the C was commitment. So let's, let's screen these people for commitment, and he'd do a commitment screen, and he'd ask people about their homework, how they did their homework and what that... Well, you know, when people had to do something, deliver on something, he'd ask, he'd interrogate them a little bit about that. And then the O of the core was for ownership, and, uh, the idea that we, we th- a human will perform better and respond better with a little bit of ownership over what they're doing. So, you know, sport was very much a dictate and control kind of coaching model, really, and management model. And, um, he was very much of the, of, you know, very, very strong that as a human we like to have a little bit of control of what's happening to us. We like to negotiate or have a little say, "This works, that works," and, and that's a very powerful kind of construct to work with. Um, the R was for responsibility and accountability. And of course, we've all-

Steven Bartlett 34:34 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 34:34 ... w- work in professional jobs in the end, and we've all got accountability and responsibility in life. And, um, and so people need to be held accountable and responsible. And then the E was for excellence, but it's personal excellence. And as he used to joke about, it should have been personal excellence, but it sounded a bit like corpse.

Steven Bartlett 34:51 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 34:51 So, uh, we stuck with C.O.R.E.

Steven Bartlett 34:53 Yeah. (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 34:53 And, um, and so we got all the coaches in and said, like, "I, I bought this 100%." Really, really felt, right, we're gonna do this. And then we'll sort of use cycling as the kind of, you know, not... Uh, well, it was the, it was the opportunity to, to do something different, you know. And I was absolutely sure, really, really sure it was the right thing to be doing. Of course, he was there to sort of coach and help and support. And, um, so we got the coaches in and said, "Right, guys, we're gonna change the way we're, we're working here. Um, we're gonna put the..." uh, the time actually, we termed it. Gonna take the crown, um, off the heads of the coaches and put them onto the heads of the riders, and they're gonna be the, um, the kings and queens of their own world, their own destiny, and, and we're gonna support them in that. And it was just that slight change of emphasis which had, you know... A- a lot of the coaches threw their hands in the air, went, "Well, it's... No, it would never... Be out of control. They won't turn up to training." And, you know, it was kind of an emotional response really. And of course, you know, Chris Hoy and Vicky Pendleton and all these other, you know, all of the athletes who, who were with us at the time, they wanted to perform for themselves.

Steven Bartlett 36:02 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 36:03 They wouldn't perform for a coach. They wouldn't... You know. Uh, they might have a brilliant relationship with the coach, but it was, they, they were, they were after their own performance or team performance. It wasn't, it wasn't done for the coach, and it was a, it was a real... I mean, it sounds a bit-... obvious now, I guess. But at the time, it felt like a, quite a big deal to be, to be really empowering a group of athletes. And, um, yeah, and off we went with that, really. And, um, it was an exciting time.

Steven Bartlett 36:31 One of the

Steven Bartlett 36:32 things that I- I've taken from that, many things, but one of the things that I've taken from that, which is, again, feels really consistent throughout lots of things I've read about you, is this idea of going back to first principles, to make-

Sir Dave Brailsford 36:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:42 ... to create better solutions.

Sir Dave Brailsford 36:44 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:44 And I'll tell you the three touch points where I've kind of, I've, I've seen that in your philosophy. The first is, you basically went down to the first principles of the human brain there-

Sir Dave Brailsford 36:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:53 ... and said, "How does the human brain work? And let's treat the human brain in a better way, um, outside of c- the conventional way of treating the human brain to get a better outcome." That's like, again, w- with first principles, it's a lot of work. No one wants to do it. Conventions are much e- much easier. The second thing is just generally your attitude to breaking down what you are trying to achieve-

Sir Dave Brailsford 37:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:12 ... as a team, into small sections.

Sir Dave Brailsford 37:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:13 That's where I see the first principles thing.

Sir Dave Brailsford 37:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:15 And the third thing was, I read that you hired younger coaches into your team that weren't tainted with convention.

Sir Dave Brailsford 37:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:22 And again, they're much easier to-

Sir Dave Brailsford 37:23 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:23 ... train in, in, in new ways.

Sir Dave Brailsford 37:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:25 Is that?

Sir Dave Brailsford 37:26 Yes, I think ............................ I think I do like to break things down into, you know, smaller component parts, all, all first principles anyway. It's not copy and paste.

Steven Bartlett 37:34 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 37:34 You know, I read a lot and, and I'm constantly kind of reading and listening to podcasts.

Steven Bartlett 37:40 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 37:40 I'm, I'm, I'm constantly taking information in. But, and I'll, and I'll use some of the information, but I won't just copy and paste it. I won't just apply it. It's contextual. I'd like to understand what's going on behind it, like to understand the theory and the thinking. It drives people mad, actually, because it, (laughs) I can talk about methods and whatnot, and models all day long, you know.

Steven Bartlett 37:59 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 38:00 But, um, fundamentally, it's how I, it's how I like to work. And, um, I think it's, like, the, the true... Take this down to its kind of deepest, sort of simplest level of understanding, and then construct it relative to the context or the situation, how it could best apply to what you're doing.

Steven Bartlett 38:17 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 38:18 And take the time, you know, take the time and effort and the energy and the... You know, I just like to think about it, and I'll draw it. I'll draw nonstop, right? So I don't write so much. I draw. And then I'll cover my office wall in, like, sticky plastic stuff. (laughs) You know, and draw all over the walls. Looks like a madman's in there, I must admit. But it's how, it's what I like to do, and it's how I work. So it drives a couple of people I work with a bit crazy, but, um, I think they're used to it by now. But, but I do like to do that. And then, and then if you get a real understanding for something, then you can, you can see whether you really agree with the, with the fundamental principles, and either go with what, go with that, or question it and develop your own ideas. And I like development. If you're gonna develop your own ideas, do it sort of, um, with originally, as it were, rather than necessarily just kind of, um, taking something as read and just applying it, you know. Um, I'm, I'd be a bit uncomfortable with that, I think.

Steven Bartlett 39:14 One of the things that

Steven Bartlett 39:15 definitely felt very original-

Sir Dave Brailsford 39:17 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:17 ... when, when I was reading about, um, your philosophy is this idea of forgetting about the result.

Sir Dave Brailsford 39:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:22 Because thinking about the result or the outcome-

Sir Dave Brailsford 39:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:24 ... of your performance can reduce the chances of success in that performance.

Sir Dave Brailsford 39:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:29 That's very unusual, because in, in teams, in competition in business, we think about the result. We think about s- closing the deal, or-

Sir Dave Brailsford 39:36 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:36 ... you know, what, and what that will mean, and we kind of, and, and imagine ourselves at, in that moment-

Sir Dave Brailsford 39:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:40 ... of getting the medal around our neck or that business deal won. Why is that not a good idea?

Sir Dave Brailsford 39:45 Well, if, ev- if an event happens, if something happens, the first thing that's gonna happen to you, without you even knowing, is you're gonna have an unconscious emotional reaction to it. And it'll be, it's emotion. It's not, you're not thinking it through. It's just purely emotion. And that, that, that's gonna be, you know, either a sort of a fight, flight, freeze response, really. And, um, but that, that emotional s- um, response will happen quicker than you know it, before you can go and, and get any logic or, or get any rationale into, into it. And of course, in, um, in any kind of situation like, uh, you know, what could be perceived as a threat state, where you're putting yourself in, in some kind of threatening scenario, be it, "I've damaged my pride," or, you know, what people, what happens to people? They start thinking, "Well, wha- what happens if I win? What happens if I lose? What happens if I look ridiculous? I don't wanna look ridiculous. Wha- I'm under threat." And that then becomes, you know, very easy to get emotionally hijacked by that. So then you're purely running on, on emotion, which is inconsistent. It's illogical. You know, it's not a, it, it's not a good way for you to be basing... Well, it's not a good place for you to be basing your, your behavior. But if you understand that and you think, "Okay, well, look, I, I understand that it's normal that I'm gonna put myself in a threatening scenario." So if I worry about, uh, let, let my emotion take over and I worry about, "What happens if I succeed? What happens if I fail? What happens if this? What happens if that?" then it, it's actually pointless exercise. And if you can train, slowly recognize and train your mind to go, "Okay, I know what's happened here. This is just emotion. I'm gonna put it to one side." Now then, let me separate this whatever I'm doing out into two things. We can have a, a dream. "I wanna win the Tour de France" is a dream. My ability to win it, or our ability, or anybody else's, to win it, is, "I'm gonna do my absolute best to try and win it, but other people are gonna try and stop me, and other people are gonna try to do something." It's stuff beyond our control that could impact on that. So if you set your goal as, "I'm going to win," you're gonna agitate nonstop, because it actually is out of your control. Uh, whereas if you set your dream as saying, "This is what I'd really, really like to happen. I'll go all in. I'll do everything I can. I'm fully committed to that, but let me break it down into targets," which is, well, to be, "I, I could get to the ideal weight. I could do the proper training. I could do the, you know, follow a nutritional plan that's gonna give me the optimal energy and, you know, I can train my tactics. I can be, really work hard to get a fantastic team around me, build good rapport, or build confidence in my teammates." These are all things that you can do. And so, if you say, "Okay, let's leave the dream over there for a while, but I'm gonna go after the things I can do," and you base your plan around the things that you can actually control and do, you'll be on fire.... you'll be on fire. You'll be absolutely on fire. And the dream might happen, and it might not. And you'll be absolutely oh, you know, delighted, and best thing ever if it happens. And if it doesn't, then you might be absolutely devastated. But you gotta leave it as a dream, and you gotta understand that actually worrying about the consequence of an event is detrimental to the process and the performance and the, the chances of you achieving that event. So you park that. Go after your targets and go, "Right, I'm going process, not outcome." And we talk a lot about process, not outcome. And when you catch yourselves, you know, it's, uh, it, it's emotion in the end, so of course we do get hijacked and of course we do get fearful or, you know, a bit panicked. And you gotta, you gotta have a system whereby you can talk to yourself a little bit. You can bring yourself back round and focus on the now and the process of now rather than worrying about the future.

Steven Bartlett 43:16 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 43:16 And then you can come back and concentrate on the process, get back into the now. And, you know, some of the athletes would, would have a routine where they'd tie their shoe-, undo and tie their shoelaces again. Or they'd do, they'd have a little, you know, a little process that they'd tap into, and they'd go into that, in, into that and bring their mind back into the present and stop worrying about the future. And, um, of course, the penalty kick's the best example of that.

Steven Bartlett 43:38 Yeah, that's what I was thinking about.

Sir Dave Brailsford 43:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:40 Ronaldo stood there-

Sir Dave Brailsford 43:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:41 I'm sure they, they bag 100% in training-

Sir Dave Brailsford 43:44 Yeah, exactly.

Steven Bartlett 43:44 ... but in the Euros final... (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 43:46 Exactly. You know, and if you take the crowd out and take a penalty, those guys are so accurate in the, you know, the signal from the brain down into the muscle to cr- contract in a certain way, that happens, and the accuracy and the, and the repeatability of that is, is absolutely massive. Put a crowd in there, and what, what changes? Well, nothing changes physically. It's all between your ears.

Steven Bartlett 44:05 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 44:06 And so how can you train that? You know. And, and mental skills can be trained just as much as your... You know, we all know that w- we wanna get fit and strong, and you go to the gym, and you know that you're gonna overload your body, and you give it time to adapt, and it's the adaptation that's gonna make you a little bit stronger. And it's the same with the mind. You know, you can train your mind, and, and I think that's what certainly working with Steve was, um, was an eye-opener. As well as, I think probably the biggest eye-opener for most people is it gives you a... Once you realize you've got, like, an emotional brain and a logical brain and, um, you know, a bit of a memory, computer side going on, then, then it gives you insight into yourself and why you are behaving and feeling like you are, and some of the assumptions you're making about other people. And you gotta start with yourself first. If you can get that little bit of insight, "Why do I feel how I'm feeling? Why do I respond like I do? What triggers me? What's my best self look like? And what's my sort of, you know, not the best self look like? Why, why am I different? Why, why sometimes am I behaving in this kind of, you know, this second or th- the shadow version of myself? And why

Narrator 45:08 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 45:09 ... am I sometimes my best self? What's happening there? Why can't I just be my best self all the time? Surely that must be doable." So, take a bit of time to understand it, unpick it. And some people just maybe haven't been educated. I certainly wasn't until really I sort of sto- sort of stopped and started to look at this stuff. And then you realize, you think, "Wow, a lot of my behavior, a lot of my life was driven by emotion. It wasn't driven by the real me who could be calm and logical and think things through and quite... You know, I have a lot of passion and feelings and caring, and, and yet at times I could be something else." You know. And I think understanding that's fundamental, I think. I don't think there's any excuse for that, really.

Steven Bartlett 45:46 No, I agree. Um, both points sounded very similar, in fact, because y- on one hand you're saying with your goals, only go after things you can control. Like, really focus on those things. And in the same way, when we're talking about personal responsibility of self, you're saying you can't control other people.

Sir Dave Brailsford 46:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 46:01 So, yeah, but the thing that, you know, maybe you, you do have control over in your life is your behavior, how you act, how you conduct yourself, and then-

Sir Dave Brailsford 46:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:08 ... kind of leave the rest to-

Sir Dave Brailsford 46:10 Well, I think you can understand how other people are responding and how they're feeling.

Steven Bartlett 46:13 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 46:14 So you can accept that if somebody's, um, you know, if somebody's in a very... Well, there's two things really. I th- I think first and foremost, ambition is a big thing not to forget. You know, what's your level ambi- you know, you can be incredibly ambitious. "Why can't we be the best in the world at something? Why can't we be the first to do something? What's stopping us doing something that nobody ever has, a- and the human race has ever done before?" Nothing, as far as I can see. You know, so I think there's a, it's, it's, um, you know, you've gotta have that ambition, enthusiasm, the belief we can do whatever we wanna do, you know, and, and really stretch that. And then I think the next bit really, the target's (laughs) it's more like the, the how to get there.

Steven Bartlett 46:50 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 46:50 It's more like the boring stuff to get there. You know, so it's, uh, it's like head and heart really. And, um, and I think the, the, if you understand yourself then you should be able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. And if they're having a tough time, or if somebody else is angry or there's something else going on with them, you know, rather than just dive in and, and respond to the behavior you're seeing at face value, why not stop and think about it a little bit? And, "Is this person in trouble? What's causing this? Where are they coming from? What's going on?" You know, and try and understand it. And if they're just responding emotionally to something and you allow yourself to immediately respond emotionally back, it doesn't really get anywhere, you know.

Steven Bartlett 47:25 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 47:25 So, so you better hold back and wait and find out, and, and, and try anyway. Not always easy, but sometimes trying is...

Steven Bartlett 47:31 Not always easy.

Sir Dave Brailsford 47:31 No, no.

Steven Bartlett 47:32 I struggle with that.

Sir Dave Brailsford 47:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:34 I struggle with that, especially being in a environment where my, my time is so, feels so precious, right?

Sir Dave Brailsford 47:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:40 It's always, there's so many things I could be doing. And I'm, you're exact- you're exactly the same.

Sir Dave Brailsford 47:44 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:44 I know, you know, I know people that work with you. I know you're a very, very busy person. So it's, it's tough in the moment to stop and pause and to have patience when the rest of my life is ran on, like, efficiency.

Sir Dave Brailsford 47:54 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:56 You know what I mean? (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 47:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:57 It's difficult.

Sir Dave Brailsford 47:59 Yeah. I guess in, in, in my world, you know, I'm o- out, I'm out to try and help people.

Steven Bartlett 48:03 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 48:03 And, and I do push people. Again, we got high standards, we, and, you know, you do want a level of commit- I don't like laziness, for example. I just can't... That, that, that would really irk, that gets me, you know. But then I have to manage it-

Steven Bartlett 48:13 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 48:14 ... and think, "Okay, well, if they, that's what they want, there's no problem. This isn't, this isn't the environment for them," you know.

Steven Bartlett 48:19 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 48:19 But in the main, I think understanding challenges and, and, um-... setting standards and boundaries.

Steven Bartlett 48:28 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 48:28 And working through all of that is important.

Steven Bartlett 48:30 You, um, you built teams and developed teams that won

Steven Bartlett 48:34 over and over and over again, in the same way that Sir Alex Ferguson did. I'm a Manchester United fan, so I was lucky enough to be, you know, it's not going so well lately, but in that era, to watch our team win-

Sir Dave Brailsford 48:44 Yeah, amazing.

Steven Bartlett 48:44 ... over and over again.

Sir Dave Brailsford 48:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:46 And the thing that really, um, I find, 'cause I just thought that was normal growing up.

Sir Dave Brailsford 48:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:51 That my team wins all the time.

Sir Dave Brailsford 48:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:53 The thing I find amazing now when I look back on it is how he managed to reinvent those teams, but also to get the same team-

Sir Dave Brailsford 48:59 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:59 ... to win again. And I, this c- this idea of, like, where is your motivation after victory?

Sir Dave Brailsford 49:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:05 And how do you get a team that's just won and then they win again?

Sir Dave Brailsford 49:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:08 And they win again, to win again.

Sir Dave Brailsford 49:10 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:10 Where do they find the motivation? They've stood on the podium, they've had the moment, where does that come from?

Sir Dave Brailsford 49:14 Yeah, it's a great question, that one. And I think, um, and I think credit to Sir Alex and the work that he did. I mean, um, you know, I think now looking back, there are, there are those long-serving successful managers who, like you say, whi- whilst it's happening, it's an era, and nobody really kind of thinks too much, it's just the norm. But then when you realize it's not actually the norm at all, you know, it's-

Steven Bartlett 49:34 (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 49:34 ... it's something very, very special going on. And I think the, I think success is interesting in, in, in terms of what it does to people. And, you know, I think in sport we're kind of more geared to failure, really. You lose more than you win normally. And, um, you know, we kind of recalibrate the goals, dust yourself down, and redo your plan, and off you go again. But when you succeed, all of a sudden... Not many people have a, a plan for success, do you know what I mean? So you succeed, nobody's gotta (laughs) , nobody wants to tempt fate, I guess. But not many people have a plan for success. And it does, it does impact on people massively in terms of their expectation on themselves, on their, in terms of their hunger going forward. You know, it does, it does impact people in different ways. And of course you get more, you probably get financially better off, your, your ro- your, your position in society changes, you know, who you are, you become a celebrity, whatever, whatever, whatever. And of course all that, all that can change and impact on your drive and your hunger. And I think fundamentally, that's the bit that's incredible about the people who stay at the top for a long time. It's not really the reward and, you know, what they, what they're getting sort of financially, you know, all of the, those other kind of sort of, um, trappings of, of success. I don't think that's what driving them. You know, there's something else deeper down driving those people forward, and they'll just keep going and going and going. And I thought what, um, Alex Ferguson did ever so well was he... Th- there's always a challenge with teams when you've got a generation who grow together, and they come together, and you'll have a two, three, four years of amazing success with a group who've bonded and they're on a journey together. And of course then you start to get towards the end of that, and at what point do you bring young talent in and let some of the more established talent go, you know, and is there a, a transition? And he did that ever so well. He really did that e- ever so well. And we met and c- and chatted a couple of times about that, is when, when I was younger, up in the velodrome in Manchester, he'd pop over to, to the velodrome and we'd sit there and chat. And, and that was always one of the big things I wanted to ask him, you know, is like, "Okay, what, what are you watching? What are you seeing? Uh, w- why are you doing this? What, you know, what have you seen there that makes you think that's the right time to change and you're bringing this youngster in here, you know?" And he'd say, you know, he, he'd, he'd quite often say that, um, you know, people get a bigger voice, they get a bigger standing in the dressing room, they might start to second, you know, "Uh, I'm not so sure about that, gaffer." You know? They'd, and they'd have an influence and, you know, there'd be celebrity and the media and other things going on, et cetera, et cetera. And, and definitely sooner rather than later, that would be, "Right, okay, off we go." He'd, and he'd change it. Listening to him talk about it, he, he knew exactly what he was doing, to be fair to him, and he was a master at it.

Steven Bartlett 52:14 You've got to have had moments like that in your career where you see that culture-

Sir Dave Brailsford 52:18 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:19 ... at threat or at risk-

Sir Dave Brailsford 52:21 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:21 ... because of an individual. I've had them in my business too. And in those moments very early in my career, I would try and I guess look past, when I was a bit more naive in business, look past it or put things in place to try and mitigate the impact that one individ- the negative impact that one individual was having on the o- overall culture.

Sir Dave Brailsford 52:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:40 And as I got older, I realized that I just needed to address the situation ASAP-

Sir Dave Brailsford 52:44 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:44 ... before it becomes like a virus and spreads, right?

Sir Dave Brailsford 52:46 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:46 What do you do in that situation when you, when you see an individual in your company-

Sir Dave Brailsford 52:50 It's a tough one. It's a tough one. I- it really is. I mean, it's, it's an easy one to talk about, it's a very difficult one to do. Um, particularly when, you know, that might be your best player, your best rider-

Steven Bartlett 53:01 Even worse. (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 53:02 ... your best performer. And, and all of a sudden you've got the hit in the numbers, and, and the behavior's not great. And, um, then you gotta ask yourself, "Well, are we after just winning and it doesn't really matter, just win?" Um, b- and, and you kind of manage the impact of that across everybody. Or does behavior and, and conduct and culture matter, and you wanna make sure that you actually have got some cultural values that you're gonna stand by come, come what may? You know, and, and of course, those real moments when they do arrive and you've got to address it, they're very, very stressful. I, I kind of get very introspective and look at myself in the mirror and think it through and think it through. And, and everybody who works with me will say it takes me time to make a decision. And I think it's because I think of every permutation, and I think it through so much. Emotionally, I fully in- I g- I don't think I can't, actually. (laughs) I'm just so engaged with those things that I've really, really got to think carefully about them. And I've had to make a couple of pretty big decisions along, along those lines. And in the end, I thought, "Right, what do I believe in?" Is it a popular decision? Is it a performance decision? W- in my world, you know, there's like, "Are we, are we trying to win here? Or do we wanna keep people happy? Or where, pff, where do we go?" And, and you need some kind of, you need to establish your own, "Right, what do I believe in?"

Steven Bartlett 54:25 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 54:26 And without really figuring out what you believe in, you're always gonna be caught in a storm otherwise. And it's always gonna be mentally excruciating, I think, 'cause you're never quite sure. So I, I like, like to s- to anchor myself in, "Right, what are my values, what do I believe in, and how does that apply to this situation?" And then, okay, well...That's it. And if it goes wrong, I always wanna be able to look back and say, "Okay, well, I made decisions based on my principles. I didn't make decisions based on that particular moment, doesn't matter how difficult it was. And I'll stick to that." And I've had, I've had one r- quite recently actually, or two actually, in the last two to three months, which were pretty challenging dec- dec- decisions like that. And on both occasions, I've gone right back. And I tend to, I don't know if it's a good thing, probably not a good thing for the people around me, but I've got a few, you know, people I really value their opinion, you know. And, and they're sort of like, you know, I'll, I'll chat away to them, and I'll ask them questions. And, and I think sometimes they think, "Okay, I'm gonna make that decision," or, "He's asking me to make this decision." And what I'm trying to do is just kind of run through my thought processes and sound it out, sound it out, and sound it out sound it out, until I get really pre-anchored onto, "No, I know what I really feel now." And then I'll make the decision immediately. I, I won't hesitate then. But to get to that point takes me a bit of time, and I need to talk about it to somebody. I need to, I need to express it vocally, I think, to really make sure I understand what I'm thinking. Because if I can't explain it to somebody, I'm maybe not quite there. So just thinking about it in my own head, or even writing it down for myself, on big stuff I like to try and be able to explain it to somebody to then understand fully that I really... If I can explain it to somebody, I think I've pretty much got it. Whereas if I just i- in my head explained it to myself, (laughs) who knows what the hell I'm talking about, you know? So yeah, it's quite, um, it's a, quite an agonizing process. But you just need your principles in the end. You need a decision-making-

Steven Bartlett 56:18 Framework.

Sir Dave Brailsford 56:19 ... framework, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:20 Yeah, based on principle.

Sir Dave Brailsford 56:20 You do, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:21 And it's so funny, 'cause everyone can relate to that, even if they've not been in your position.

Sir Dave Brailsford 56:23 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 56:23 I mean, we all have, we all face really tough moments-

Sir Dave Brailsford 56:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 56:26 ... where we kind of arrive at that, that pass, and we have to decide if we're going left or right. And (clears throat) the worst possible thing is making, often making no decision, right?

Sir Dave Brailsford 56:34 Making no decision or, or making a decision that you thought was the right decision because you thought it was the right thing to do, but it wasn't actually what you thought. And I think we're always fearful of the consequences of our decisions. I think quite often... And I say to our guys sometimes, "Okay, imagine, let's, let's imagine we've got a problem. And take away, you know, we're gonna have a group discussion about something. And imagine that all of our riders didn't have emotions, they were just robots. And what would you do?" And they go, "Oh, simple. You'd, well, you'd just do this, this, and this." Okay, so now we put the emotions back in, and that's, that's... What's that doing to you? Why is that changing your thinking? And then, of course, you don't... You know, you've got people's feelings, and there, you might have conflict, you know, you might, somebody might not be happy. And you know, it, that, that then impacts, 'cause we's trying to second-guess the emotional response of a group, or you're trying to second-guess how somebody might feel or whether they're gonna come at you, or it creates conflict, or... You know, and, and, and so I think it's every now and again, I go, "Right, okay, let's just have the robots. Let's, what would we do? What would be the best thing to do?" And they go, "Simple, we'll just do this." And so that's, that's one thing. I think if you think that right, it, the consequence of whatever we're deciding about, nothing bad happens.

Steven Bartlett 57:47 Hm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 57:48 Nothing bad happens. Absolutely. There is... So you can make any decision you want and nothing happens, nothing bad happens. What would you do? And people's mind freed up immediately. They'll make a good decision probably. But it's fear or it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the consequence of this might happen or that might happen, or it might go wrong, or this or that or the other. They might not be happy, or they might not be ha- (laughs) You know?

Steven Bartlett 58:10 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:10 And it impacts your decision-making really. So you're getting all these biases, these emotional biases all the time. And don't get me wrong, sometimes a gut, gut feel is a good thing, you know, so... But on the other hand, I think if you just strip out the consequence of, like, nothing bad would happen-

Steven Bartlett 58:24 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:25 ... and also people's oth- other people's emotions, what would you do, most people get pretty quickly to-

Steven Bartlett 58:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:31 ... where they'd wanna be. You know?

Steven Bartlett 58:33 I just did that in my head about some of the big decisions-

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:35 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 58:35 ... I have in my life. I thought, "Well, if there was no, if I was dealing with robots and I could just shuffle things without consequence-

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:40 ... what would I do?"

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:41 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 58:41 And that, the answer you're seeing there is probably the-

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:44 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 58:44 ... the right thing for the objective-

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:46 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 58:47 ... but maybe... Well, you could also say, well, there are emotio- um, there's emotional consequences which might hinder the objective.

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:54 So if I really annoy this person, or if I upset the balance here-

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:57 ... then the objective's compromised, so.

Sir Dave Brailsford 58:59 Yeah, exactly. Uh, yeah. It just helps a little bit. And I think, and I think, uh, in the end, you know, it's like, b- it's like taking out a... If you've got a bad tooth, you've got to take it out.

Steven Bartlett 59:06 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 59:06 Might as well take it out quick.

Steven Bartlett 59:08 (laughs) Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Sir Dave Brailsford 59:08 Can't wait. You know, it's gonna hurt just as much in a couple of months' time, you know, so you might as well take it out now.

Steven Bartlett 59:12 Yeah. (paper crinkling) Quick one. As many of you know, I've been trying to make my life a little bit more sustainable as it relates to energy ever since I sold my Range Rover Sport and bought an electric bicycle. And MyEnergy, as a sponsor of this podcast, are one of the brands that make that transition much, much easier. They are at the forefront of British renewable eco smart technology. And their products are really, really changing the game. If you're on YouTube, you can see what I'm holding in my hand. This is called the Eddi, right? It's the UK's number one solar power diverter. So what is a solar diverter? It's a device for people like you and me. That means you can divert your excess energy back into your home rather than back into the grid, which will save you power and money. It's super user-friendly and easy to install, and you can control it using the MyEnergy app on your phone. To find out more about this product and more products like it that will help you make that sustainable transition, head over to myenergy.com. And, um, I highly recommend you check out the Eddi. It's, um, it's a real game-changer of a product and one that I'm gonna be installing in my home soon. (paper crinkling) Marginal gains. I... Do you know what?

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:00:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:16 I have to say

Steven Bartlett 1:00:18 this podcast is doing very well. Uh, I think it's maybe number o- one in Europe now. But I have to give you a lot of credit for that.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:00:25 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:00:25 Because I think my team are sick and tired... I can see them laughing over there. They're sick and tired of me saying this phrase, "We've got to find the 1%."

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:00:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:31 And for us in what we do with this podcast, I mean, it's, it's in my businesses as well, but in this podcast, it means, like, really giving a F about everything from the audio to these eight cameras that are on us.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:00:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:43 Nobody else does it like we do it, with eight cameras and the robots and the s- and the thumbnail, the title, the way you were picked up today-

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:00:50 Yeah. Amazing, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:50 ... to how you're leaved, to ch- really make... even when you walk in, the, the... we were a l- little bit slow on it today, but the music to create the right-

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:00:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:56 ... atmosphere-

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:00:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:57 ... the lighting. We installed these blinds here because we're trying to... we want you looking at me-

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:01 ... because it's a better q-

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:02 All of these small things. And I never heard that directly from you, but I heard it indirectly by you, as in my friends would tell me about this thing called marginal gains-

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:11 ... from this guy called-

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:12 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:13 ... Sir David, David Brailsford, and I, like, adopted it as a personal philosophy. Maybe I adopted it as a personal philosophy, or it made my existing philosophy make sense.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:21 Oh, okay, yeah. Yeah, probably, probably.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:22 Ei- either one.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:22 You know, sometimes you hear an idea and you go, "That's-

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:24 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:25 ... that's the, that's the, a great way to communicate."

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:26 Somebody articulates it for you. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:26 Exactly. You articulated it for me. And, um, so thank you for that. But my, I guess, my question, because that has genuinely really helped me-

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:32 ... communicate, um, why small things are so important, but as it relates to marginal gains, how marginal?

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:41 Huh. Good question.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:43 And how marginal was that?

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:43 A smile's marginal.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:45 Sorry?

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:45 A smile's marginal.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:46 Yeah. Okay. Oh, okay. I like that.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:47 Probably your best marginal gain ever. Smile at people more often.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:51 Cheapest and easiest

Narrator 1:01:51 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:51 Yeah, exactly.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:52 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:52 And people like it. People smile back.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:54 Hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:54 And what-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:54 I wonder what the trajectory, how that impacts your trajectory through life if you just smiled more.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:01:59 A lot.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:00 Yeah. (laughs)

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:02:00 I'd have thought so. You know, you'd be-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:01 Of course.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:02:01 ... more approachable. People think you're s- a friendly person, you know, just in, in the main, you know. Smile at people. Smile at each other. Say hello.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:08 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:02:08 Don't walk past, you know. Don't... you're not so... That's... you can't be all so c- consumed in your head that you're walking around with your head down and ignoring people, you know.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:15 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:02:15 Which, which was very easy to do. You know, if somebody says hello, just, "Oh, hello."

Steven Bartlett 1:02:19 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:02:20 That's a marginal gain right there. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:02:21 People don't value the small stuff though. They, they focus too much about, on the big stuff, right?

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:02:25 Well, I think you've got to get the basics right, you know. I think, I think the marginal gains concept came about re- originally is when, uh, we started out with the Olympic program, and the Olympic kind of medals were so far away, you know. It seemed like such a mountain, and they were so, so in the distance and untouchable. You're thinking like, "Wow, and how on Earth, what are we gonna do to get from where we are now to get up there?" And as, as we kind of, as we started working through, you know, what, what are we, how are we gonna approach this, it occurred to me that there was a couple of things really. One was, there's obviously the, the, the fundamentals, the basics of any kind of performance really, when, if you get the fundamentals right for a consistent period of time, it's gonna get you a long way there. It really is. So that, that's... there's no... you know, that, that's important. But the, um, the whole idea of marginal gains really start, start to think, right, okay, so we're, we're a pretty long way off of that, but so what could we do? What can we believe in? How do we get some momentum? How do we get some contagious enthusiasm? Of course, people like a little bit of progression, you know.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:28 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:03:28 And, and if we a- just aim for perfection, perfection's so far away, that there's no point in aiming f- because we're gonna fail every day. So we thought, well, let's have a little progression, just a little, little bit of progression, and that'll make you feel good, you know. So, let's i- let's identify where we're going. Are we doing the basics? Right then, what could we do by next week that we're not doing this week? What little things could we do? There's a million things that could impact a, a cycling performance. Could we, could we, I don't know, change our diet to be slightly more optimal than it is this week and do that by next week? And everybody goes, "Yeah, we could do that." Okay, so what else could we do? Could we do more in the, in the gym? Could we do... could you change your attitude slightly? Could we really kind of think about, just even engage with thinking about your attitude once a day? Could you do that? Yeah, we could do that. Okay, so off we go. And then you get to next week, and did we do all that stuff? Yeah, we did actually, ain't we? We haven't moved a long way, but I tell you what, it felt pretty good. What are you doing? I did this. Oh, what are you doing? I did this. And all of a sudden, you kind of start sort of getting this idea of you, you make, you'm, you're on the move. And, uh, one of the things about marginal gains is you're on the move. And we like progression. We like to feel, oh, feel quite good about myself today, I did X. Probably means nothing to anybody else, and proba- probably, you know, very, you know, unique to me, but it meant something to me, you know. And I feel quite good about that. And so I can, I can do it again tomorrow. And, and small, small steps stick, whereas if you try and do something big, you can go with something big for a little while. We all go to the gym in January now, and in a couple of months' t- or couple of weeks' time, we all go full gas in the gym, and then, course, by February or mid-February, we've all stopped again. Not, you know, generalization, but you know what I mean. And, um, and why is that, you know? Whereas, uh, i- y- we're trying to make too big a change, that's not sustainable. And, and it's, it's, it's quite rare that you can make major change and make it sustainable. But it's quite easy to make small, incremental change and make them stick.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:22 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:05:22 And it's the stickability over time, I think, which makes the, the big difference. And it's as much psychological as it's anything else. And if there's a group who buy into, right, let's look at the little things, you know, let's look at the difference, let's look at the, you know, like, your setup in here, like the music and everything else, once you start doing that, everybody's on the, you know, getting quite excited. "Yeah, that's what makes us different." And then somebody's gonna go, "Well, we could have that picture instead of that picture," or, "We could do this instead of that." And it feels good.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:49 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:05:50 And by virtue of the fact that you're all going, you're on it, and you're enjoying it-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:54 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:05:54 ... and there's a bit of energy about it, then other ideas will come to the surface and you'd be more open to, to, to adopting them. And people talk about it, you know, "We're, we're on the move. We're changing. We're doing all these little things because we can be asked to do the little things that other people can't be asked to do."

Steven Bartlett 1:06:09 Mm-hmm.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:06:09 And that makes a difference. That makes you a winner, in my opinion.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:12 Yeah.

Sir Dave Brailsford 1:06:13 And I say that quite often in our team. You know, we'll be working