Konstantin Kisin: Why woke ideology weakens Western freedom

Kisin says victimhood culture and self-hatred weaken the West: rival civilizations notice the division, and sense that values like freedom now look fragile.

Konstantin KisinguestSteven Bartletthost

Sep 23, 20241h 58mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

155 min read · 30,624 words

0:00 – 2:11
Intro
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
  One of the terrible things about wokeness is that we are at risk of destroying the very thing that we now enjoy. Freedom. 'Cause other countries see that as weakness, and they capitalize on it.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  How would you prove that threat is real?
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Because this has already happened. And we'll get into this in more detail. Constantine Kislen-
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... is the sharp-witted satirist, podcast host, and social commentator. Unafraid to discuss some of the most controversial topics and challenging questions that society is struggling with.
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Ideology is a very bad thing, because the moment you buy into a prepackaged set of ideas about what you're supposed to believe, you can very quickly find yourself not interested in the truth. For example, the ideology of wokeness creates a very simplistic and frankly ridiculous way of looking at people, not as individuals, but as groups with a hierarchy of oppression and promotion of victimhood, which is what makes them so dangerous. Because when you teach people to be victims, you actually cause them to suffer in real life. We're weakening ourselves, and now we censor everything. Political labeling is a weapon people use against their opponents, and political correctness is preventing you from expressing a dissenting opinion. You can to say that that's hate speech, but as we spend more time arguing about trivial issues instead of real stuff that matters, the dominant civilization becomes more divided, especially from the inside. And other countries get to make a play for that dominant position, and it will mean that the values of the West, human rights, equality of treatment, freedom of speech, those values will not be considered valued at all. They don't wanna hold hands and sing Kumbaya. And I'm convinced that the geopolitics we have seen in the last many years would not be happening if we were not signaling weakness and division.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Is there a way to stop the division?
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Here's what you do.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Question. If you could sit at a table with any four guests from The Diary of a CEO, who would you choose? Here's a challenge for the entire Diary of a CEO community. If we hit 10 million subscribers by the end of 2024, you will get to pick four guests for your dream conversation, and you can make it weird or you can make it wonderful, and here is the best part. 3,000 of you that subscribe will be invited to join this conversation live, in-person, and for free. Subscribe now, and let's make this happen together.
2:11 – 5:49
Who Is Konstantin Kisin?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Constantine, who are you and what do you do? And I have to add to that, why do you do it?
2. KKKonstantin Kisin
  My history is I was born in the late Soviet Union and I grew up in that society, watched it collapse as a young man, young boy actually. Um, and then I saw the craziness of the emergence of modern Russia, which was an experience unlike any other really. It was pretty insane what happened. Uh, and then there was a very, very brief window in my family's time when we went from being very poor when I was born to being very rich to being very poor in the space of like 10 years. And in the five-year period when my family did have money, they sent me to boarding school in the UK, and that's how I ev- I ended up here. And then fast-forward a bunch of years, um, I started a podcast with another comedian, uh, uh, called Frances Foster called Triggernometry. We're about to hit a million subscribers today, which is-
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Really?
4. KKKonstantin Kisin
  ... pretty exciting. Yeah. And the reason I do what I do is, um, I have a different perspective to most people, uh, most people who were born here, grew up here, who take what we have here as a given. They take it for granted, in my opinion, many people. I've seen that the world is not like this everywhere. I've seen also that societies don't necessarily last forever. Uh, cultures don't necessarily last forever. Civilizations don't necessarily last forever. So, the reason I do what I do is I'm trying to remind people in the West how privileged and truly lucky we are to live in this society. And we've talked, you know, in the last 10 years in particular, so much about different forms of privilege, you know, male privilege, white privilege. The one form of privilege that we don't ever talk about for some reason is Western privilege, and actually, I believe that's the one that we really should be talking about, and should be talking about from a position of gratitude, uh, because we are incredibly lucky to live, uh, in the West. Uh, and b- because we don't know that, I believe we're at risk of destroying the very things that we now enjoy.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West is the title of your book. It's... I love this title, um, for a variety of reasons. The word love is really intentional.
6. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  Why did you include the word love?
8. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Because it's how I feel. You know, um, when you've come to a place from outside, it's easier to see what makes it special. Uh, and so I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunities that people like me enjoy, but actually, all of us enjoy the freedom to make of your life what you will, the freedom to speak your mind, at least until recently, the freedom to pursue things, the freedom... You know, one of the bedrocks of our societies is capitalism. Now, capitalism is based on the idea of private property. Private property doesn't really exist in most of the rest of the world. If you are a billionaire, even in Russia, um, you might be a billionaire today, but if you cross Vladimir Putin or whoever else might be in charge, you will go to prison and have all your assets taken away from you. That's what happened to Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Jack Ma in China, he made some comments about like banking regulations. It wasn't even particularly controversial stuff, and then he disappears for a year and comes back with, you know, completely different set of opinions all of a sudden and loses most of his money. So, we have the luxury in, in the West to do what we want far more than any human beings have ever had in the history of humanity, and I love that. I love that freedom and I love the, the opportunities that I've had to build my own life, build my family's life, to give my son now opportunities that he never would have enjoyed in a billion years in another
5:49 – 7:33
The Threat Coming To The Western World
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
  country.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  So, what is the threat?... because y- you love the UK-
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... it's all going great, y-
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... um, what is the threat that you see on the horizon and how do you prove that th- threat is real?
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  If you look at history, and I'm no historian, but if you read interesting people about history, most civilizations are not destroyed from the outside, they're destroyed through suicide, uh, through cultural suicide. And I think one of the big threats I've been raising the alarm on for a long time is what people talk about as woke culture or progressi- you know, rampant progressivism, whatever you want to call it. But at the heart of it is the idea that we are bad, our society is bad. It's based... Our history is bad. It's based on, you know, slavery and colonialism and exploitation and imperialism and all of this stuff. And how do you prove that? Well, there's several ways to think about it. The first one is, if you thought your society was bad, why would you defend it? Why would you teach its values to your children? Why would you want it to persevere and continue to exist? If you look geopolitically, in the last many years, as I've been predicting now for a long time, look at what happened in Ukraine, look at, uh, what happened in Afghanistan with the withdrawal of American forces, look at what China is now doing in terms of how muscular it's becoming, about Taiwan. As the West loses confidence, as the West becomes more divided, as the West becomes more distracted, as we spend more time... You know, it's a trite thing to say, but as we spend more time arguing about what a woman is instead of real stuff that matters, other people around the world see that as weakness and they capitalize on it. And I'm convinced that the things we have seen in terms of geopolitics in the last many years would not be happening if we were not signaling weakness and division.
7:33 – 10:07
Are You Politically Affiliated To The Left Or Right?
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Are you politically affiliated at all? Do y- do you consider yourself to be on the left or the right or neither or...
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Well, here's how I think about it, right? Uh, my interest is in our society thriving, our culture thriving, our culture doing better. And, uh, I don't think the right or the left is always right. It's contextual, right? There are times when you want higher taxes and more government spending. Uh, there are times when you want lower taxes and less government spending. There are times when you need more immigration. You know, after World War II, Britain, Australia, Canada, many countries wanted more immigrants to come because they needed to rebuild their society. Uh, there are times when you need less immigration. And so, I think it's about where you are in the moment as opposed to these rigid ideological positions, like, you know, "I am pro-immigration," or, "I'm anti-immigration." I think both of those are pretty misguided positions. What you want is to be in the right place at the right time. So, uh, I don't know if you've noticed this, but it seems to me like political labeling is now mostly a weapon that people use against their opponents, right?
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  100%.
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Like, if I don't agree with you, it's convenient for me to label you as a member of the opposite tribe. So, if I'm on the right, well, you're a communist.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  If I'm on the left, well, you're far right. And, and this is how we have conversations now. Um, I have some positions that are currently considered right wing, I have some positions that are currently considered left wing. And, you know, I just... One of the things I really learnt from my history and my family's history, and I talk about this in the book as you know, is that ideology is a very bad thing always. And so the moment you buy into a pre-packaged set of ideas about what you're supposed to believe, you very quickly find yourself having to believe things that you don't actually agree with so that you get to stay in the tribe.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  I don't care about the tribe. I care about the truth.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  There's a quote you, um, you referenced which, uh, I actually sent to my friends earlier on when I was talking to them, um, it is, "I have no interest whatsoever in the false dichotomy of right versus left. If there is one thing my Soviet childhood taught me, it's that subscribing to someone else's ideology will always inevita- inevitably mean having to suspend your own judgment about right and wrong to appease your tribe," which is on chapter one of your book-
11. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... on page 21. And it really, um... You know, as a podcaster, when you really want... you're genuinely curious and you want to interview lots of people from lots of backgrounds,
10:07 – 12:16
People Use Politics Labelling As A Weapon
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  the, the great thing about doing this job is I have to teach myself to always look at the other side.
2. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  So if you represent one side, my job, in many respects, is to try and understand the other side so we can talk about the other side as well, to, like, represent the other side.
4. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  And, um, that's been really useful for me because it stopped me falling into the trap of, like, conforming with a tribe.
6. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  And a- also, as you say, like, uh, w- when you talk about the right and left thing being a label and a weapon that people will use, it's the same. When a journalist wants to write about me, what they'll do is they'll find the most right wing person that's ever been on my podcast-
8. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and they'll say, "He interviews people like..."
10. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yes.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... insert name-
12. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... insert name-
14. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... as if to say (laughs) I am those two people.
16. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Right. Yes. Or in our case with Trigunometry, what happens is, we are people who started our show because we were pushing back against the woke progressive dogma in our comedy industry at the time. And so a lot of our early guests were exploring perspectives that were not ours. We were two Remain voters, and when the Remain... when the Brexit vote happened, we were really confused, 'cause we were part of that kind of elitist metropolitan, you know, "I don't know anyone who voted Brexit," kind of thing. But my perspective was, I found it odd that people were saying, "Well, you know, the reason people voted for Brexit is 'cause half the country is racist." And I was like, "I mean, come on. That, that's just factually incorrect. We both know that." Uh, that's not to say that bigoted people don't exist and it doesn't mean that some Brexit voters weren't racist, but t- to explain a complex phenomenon like that by a simplistic explanation of that just wasn't accurate. So, we had a lot of people who were pro-Brexit on the show to understand where they're coming from. Well, one of the things that happens is, if you talk to a lot of people from one side, then the people from the other side say what you just said, "Well, he's talked to this, this, and this. I won't go on his show."... right?
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  Oh, yeah.
18. KKKonstantin Kisin
  And then, they use that against you to say, "Well, you only talk to these people." And like, I'm like, "We've, we've invited your Owen Joneses and your Ash Sarkars and all the others," and Ash should come on soon and, uh, and we've had lots of people from different perspectives. But if I'm writing an article about you or if I wanna tweet something-
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  Hmm.
20. KKKonstantin Kisin
  ... about you, it's very easy to use.
12:16 – 16:48
What Is Wokeism?
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  What is wokeism as far as you see it? Because the word kinda sounds like a compliment if you did that.
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  It was initially.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Oh.
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  It was a self-compliment initially. So wokeness came along really in around 2014, and there's, if you are interested, we can talk about why it does around that time because it's a very interesting thing that I actually think speaks to the moment we're in more broadly. Um, but it was initially used by, uh, people, particularly kind of Black Lives Matter and, uh, racial activists in America about themselves. And what they were saying is, "We are awakened to certain realizations," realizations like what they call intersectionality, which is the idea that, you know, different g- uh, racial and sexual and other groups in society are treated differently, um, and we're now awake to this. That's what wokeness meant, and now we are aware of these systemic forces that are disadvantaging certain groups, and now we're gonna pursue activism that's designed to address, you know, white privilege, male privilege, and all of this other stuff. But very quickly, what happened is a lot of people looked at some of the ways these people were behaving and other people around them were behaving and started making fun of it (laughs) , which is what often happens. And so now the word woke is kind of an insult that's being used to say these people are somewhat detached from reality and they're obsessed about trivial issues, um, that don't actually have much bearing on reality, they're not interested in facts, they're interested in narratives and so on. Um, but if you're asking me what woke culture really is, it's a combination of things. First and foremost, it's the promotion and celebration of victimhood, first and foremost. Then you take that victimhood and you say different groups are differently victimized. Some groups are victimized, so black people, ethnic minorities, women. Uh, and by the way, of course, there's a kernel truth to all these things, right? Uh, certain groups are disadvantaged in society, or perhaps a better way of saying is, generally speaking, have worse outcomes than others, and that, you know, we can explore why that is in, in more detail. Um, but what we then do is we build a, a hierarchy of oppression. Some groups are more oppressed than others, which makes them better, morally superior to others, and there are some other groups that are suspect because they're doing better. So th- this ideology kinda says the way to work out who is oppressed and who is the oppressor, because if you have the oppressed, you have to have someone who's oppressing them. We can't say, you know, different groups do different in society for all sorts of different reasons. If someone is not doing as well as someone else, that's because they've been oppressed, right? Uh, and then you work out this hierarchy, you know, white people are the evil at the top. Uh, you throw in some other successful minorities, you know, for example, uh, in the UK and in America, uh, Asians from the Far East, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, they do very well, right? So they are now seen as part of the kind of more the oppressor groups. That's why in American colleges, for example, they're discriminated against in admissions because they do better than Hispanics and, and blacks, right? So, uh, it's essentially a way of creating a very, very simplistic and frankly ridiculous way of looking at people not as individuals, you know, Stephen Constantine, but as groups, Black, white, Russian, Jewish, whatever way you wanna look at it, and it's this generalized thing. And one of the reasons it's so destructive is that it's asking all the wrong questions. It, it's, it's asking the question of why do, wh- why are people struggling, right? But it doesn't ask it from the right perspective. The real que- you know, poverty is the norm. The real question is what creates prosperity? What creates success? What creates, uh, successful outcomes for different groups? And if you just focus on, you know, what happened to a certain group 200 years ago, you're really not gonna get to the answer of how to uplift people in, in the present moment. So it's the elevation of v- victimhood, it's obsession about racial and sexual and gender dynamics, um, and it's the promotion of a kind of anti-Western, anti-white, anti-male ideology, uh, that I believe is very, very dangerous to actually the very great societies that we've created, which are based on the idea that, you know, I have some issues with multiculturalism, but a multiracial society I think is a very healthy thing, provided we are not encouraged to see each other as members of separate and divided tribes. But that is exactly what this ideology does.
16:48 – 20:44
How Victimhood Has Become Self-Harm
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  What is the harm of victimhood, and how does, how is that, like, really showing up in people's everyday lives from an individual standpoint? And s- I really wanna know, like, the how s- victimhood is becoming self-harm. So if I a- choose to adopt a victimhood mindset-
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... how does that hurt me, Stephen?
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Well, oh, (laughs) uh, I mean, there's a hundred different ways, but one of the w- the thing, things we know from psychology is what they call perception is projection. I don't know if you're familiar with this idea. Okay, you've had Jordan Peterson on the show, right?
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  So one of the things he talks about is you cannot see unless you have a hierarchy of value in your mind, right? There is an almost unlimited number of things I could be looking at in this room. There is a bunch of books behind you. There's cameras in the room. Your producer's over there. There's a wall. There's lights. There's all kinds of things. But I'm looking at you. Why? Because in this moment, you're the most important thing that's happening to me in this room, right? Our conversation. However, if I walk into this room and I am triggered by books, right?
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  I wouldn't be able to focus on you. I would be f- be ab- only be able to focus on what's behind you, right? Now, let's say you walk around thinking that because of your racial background everyone's out to get you. Well, what are you gonna see out in the world?... you're gonna see people look at you funny. Now, people look at you funny for all sorts of different reasons. People look at me funny. People look at women funny. People look at men funny, for all sorts of different reasons. You might l- walk past a police officer, and you might think, "Well, I know that my racial background makes me a victim of police brutality, therefore I'm gonna be on edge." What does that mean? Well, if a police officer says something to me, to you, you might interpret it differently than you might have done as if you were just a normal guy, right? And on and on it goes. So, you bring your perceptual filters into every situation, and therefore the outcomes that you experience are predetermined to a very significant part, not by the other people, but by your own expectations. And so when you teach people to be victims, you make them victims. You actually cause them to suffer in real life. And the people who need to be resilient and strong and to be taught that you may be mistreated sometimes by different people, but you have the capacity to overcome that. You have the capacity to make that. You can be whoever you want. You live in a free society where no one can stop you. The people who need that message the most are the people who are actually victims, the people who actually suffer discrimination, the people who actually come from difficult backgrounds. They need that message more than anyone.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  It reminded me of that v- video I saw you do, or featuring, where you talk about the scar experiment-
11. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... which, um, made it very real. For anyone that hasn't seen that video-
13. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Hmm.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... what- what was that experiment?
15. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Basically, what they did is they took a bunch of people, I think it was mostly women, some men, uh, and they said to 'em, "What we're doing today..." So, they set the frame. "What we're doing today is we are doing an experiment to find out how people with f- uh, facial disfigurements are treated in society." And they put scarring on their face in front of a mirror so they could see that they had some really serious f- facial disfigurements. And as they were leaving the room, they said, "You know what? We just need to touch up, tou- touch that scar up a little bit more," and they removed the scarring. So, these people went into what was set up as a job interview thinking they had scars on their face, but the scarring had been removed without their knowledge. And when they walked into those interviews, when they came out, they were asked a bunch of questions. And what people found was they had massively increased levels of discrimination for their facial disfigurements. They reported specific comments that the interviewers had made about their face, even though they had no scarring at all. They brought their expectation in with them, and they came out with the result that they were looking for.
20:44 – 28:49
Stereotype Threat
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  So, they believed they were discriminated against?
2. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  So, I- I read about something called stereotype threat-
4. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... um, which talks about how if you remind a group of people, whether that's black people or women or whoever it might be, about a stereotype, um, or a factor that relates to a stereotype before they do a test, then they perform worse on the test. And- and I guess, I don't know if this is a counterpoint to this, but so if I'm a black person and there's a stereotype that black people aren't good at maths-
6. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... just by asking someone on a test to fill in their ethnicity before they do the math test drops their scores on the math test-
8. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Right.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... which I- I believe is the crux of the experiment. And this- this kind of proves that... I- I guess it's a few things. I guess it's someone believing that they are at a- a disadvantage causes a disadvantage in performance, but it also highlights, if that's like an innate thing, it also points to the power of these- these stereotypes.
10. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Totally. But it's not the power of the stereotypes, it's the power of the brainwashing, right? Because th- what- what that- what, when someone says to you there's this stereotype, it's not just the stereotype alone. It's also the fact that they've told you that reinforces it for you, right? Because you might be aware of the stereotype at a peripheral level, but you're like, "No, I'm good at maths," and that's it. But it's when other people come in and tell you stuff, that's when that social proof is also reinforcing it.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Sometimes they tell you it in a well-meaning way.
12. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah. Yeah. But that doesn't change it, right?
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  But- but y- you're not saying we shouldn't tell people at all.
14. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Well, I- I don't know that the stereotype that black people aren't good at math is true. I- I think what we should tell people is, "You can be whatever the hell you want."
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
16. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Uh, "And you might be terrible at maths. That's okay. You might be good at some other things, but the thing you should really do is do your best and find out the results you get," right?
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  I'll tell you why I ask this question. Uh, I flash back to when I was 18 years old, and I was thinking of starting my first business.
18. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Hmm.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  And I discovered that there's this special, like, loan or grant you could get if you were black.
20. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Uh-huh.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  And as I sat there, I remember being sat there on Facebook, typing out this post which I never posted, where I basically was like, "This, seeing that this exists has made me feel like I'm at a disadvantage." The existence of this thing.
22. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Hmm.
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  But it's well-meaning.
24. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Sure.
25. SBSteven Bartlett
  Like, they wanted to give grants-
26. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
27. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... to people that were black.
28. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
29. SBSteven Bartlett
  But part of me, if you read between the lines of what that says-
30. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
28:49 – 30:05
The Need for Role Models
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  It's interesting, 'cause I, I reflect on when I started in business, and for whatever reason, I had a lot of role models-
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... all around the world. I mean, you know, whether it was Sir Richard Branson, studying his story, or other people. But I, I-
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  You two look incredibly similar.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  I've met him. He's, we're very, very different, but, you know, he's a very, very kind man.
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Um, but Jamal Edwards-
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... who was a young black man, probably the most famous young black business person in the UK-
11. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... I was obsessed with.
13. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Because there was something about him and his story that killed my excuses.
15. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  And it kills your victimhood.
17. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  Which is, if someone who is a young black man-
19. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... who has walked up that ladder you're trying to walk u- up-
21. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and they don't come from money, and they w- had a job in, I think, Topshop-
23. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... normal dude-
25. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... didn't have like a, you know, i- incredible education at Oxford.
27. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
28. SBSteven Bartlett
  You go, "I've got no excuse."
29. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Right.
30. SBSteven Bartlett
  And that's, and that, that part of it I've always rated, which is if someone like you has walked in those footsteps before you, it helps kill your excuses and it gives you no reason.
30:05 – 33:34
The Impact Of Your Name On A Job Application
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
  isn't true."
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  But on the point of brainwashing-
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... it is objectively true that if I... I think if you, if you look at studies where they take someone with a name that is associated-
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... with a certain race-
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and they, like, sent uh, uh, 1,000 emails-
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... for a job application-
11. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... you're much more likely to get the job if you're called John.
13. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yes.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Than, like, Lashante.
15. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Sure. Or Konstantin.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs) Yeah, yeah.
17. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Right?
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
19. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Look, you're called Steven.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah, yeah.
21. KKKonstantin Kisin
  I'm called Konstantin.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  My parents nailed it. (laughs)
23. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Right? (laughs)
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  They probably nailed it. (laughs)
25. KKKonstantin Kisin
  So d- but y- y- we, we could slice this-
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
27. KKKonstantin Kisin
  ... a billion different ways.
28. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
29. KKKonstantin Kisin
  You could say, look, I'm 5'9", barely.
30. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
33:34 – 34:29
Gen Z vs Millennials
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  like...
2. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah. Sure. But it's not gonna actually help you. It makes you feel good. Makes you feel understood and, "Oh, everyone gets..." (babbles) Does it make your life better? Does it? Do you earn more money? Does your business more successful? Well, if you're, like, a diversity consultant, it does, right?
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
4. KKKonstantin Kisin
  But for everyone else, does it make your life better? First of all, it makes you feel awful, right? And we've all been there. We've all felt victims in certain different situations because we've all been victimized in, in one way or another, you know, whether it's a traumatic childhood or things happen to you, you know. Uh, all kinds of things happen to people. But ultimately, you go talk to any, any good therapist or psychologist, they're not gonna say to you, "Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, you're really oppressed. Yeah." They're gonna say, "This, this is your opportunity to grow. This is your opportunity to overcome. Yes, we accept that the things that happened to you were wrong and bad and whatever," but it's acceptance and then you move on. That's how life works.
34:29 – 36:31
Are You Hopeful For Gen Zs?
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Do you think there's differences in generations as it relates to this attitude? What are you seeing when it comes to, like, Generation Z, as they call them-
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and how does that vary from Millennials?
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Some of the stuff that I... We have Gen Z people working for us at Trigonometry, and I'm like, some of the things about them are incredible. Young people are always amazing because they've had the benefit of learning stuff, like, knowing stuff that we had to learn, right? Like, I had to learn this. They just get given it on YouTube or whatever. They can watch a video and, like, for 10 minutes and know stuff that it took me 20 years to unpack.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Right? Um, on the one hand. On the other hand, this is a generalization. You can't generalize about people, but my experience is i- in the workplace, for example, they, they think about their role in, in such a disproportionately grandiose way compa... Like, we had... I remember Francis and I, my co-host on Trigonometry, I used to help him run a comedy club. And there were people who would, who would, who, they literally just came in to help out. They were eff- effectively doing an unpaid internship, and they'd, like, pipe up in meetings and be like, "I think we should do it like this." Like, for my generation, you know, the idea that I'd, like, say anything in that meeting would've been completely preposterous. You know what I mean? But look, um, every generation has its own challenges. I don't envy Gen Z because they grew up with phones from day one, and we are starting to, to realize... I think probably 20 years from now, we will look at phones like we look at tobacco companies 30 or 40 years ago. Like, the fact that young people were given smartphones from the age of three, four, five, six, or whatever, that was just kind of cruelty, really, I think, and we're starting to find that out. So, uh, it's... Look, it's very easy always to, to slag off young people. Um, I... We need them. We need them to be the best versions of themselves. So I'm always thinking about encouraging and lifting them up and mentoring and, and all of that, certainly the people that I know from that generation. But they do face unique challenges and, and kind of smacking some of that self-centeredness out of them is part of it.
36:31 – 37:07
The World Is Heading In The Wrong Direction
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Are you hopeful for them?
2. KKKonstantin Kisin
  I'm very torn about this more generally as well. I'm someone who's incredibly optimistic, personally. As I look at the world today, I'm not optimistic about the world. I am optimistic personally. So it's a, it's a very weird thing. I think that, uh, as I say, I think Gen Z, they've had some really difficult things imposed on them by their parents, and a lack of structure and discipline imposed on the- on them by their parents. On the other hand, they have tremendous opportunities too, so I guess it just remains to be seen.
37:07 – 39:44
Countries Debt And Who Will Impact The Next Generation
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  You're not optimistic about the world.
2. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Definitely not. Definitely not.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Wh- why?
4. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Well, we started talking about it. I think the west undermining itself, um ... Whether you think the west is good or bad is kind of irrelevant for this part of it. When the- the- the- the civilization that is dominant, which is us, there's six great civilizations in the world today: Western civilization, who are the descendants of the Western Roman Empire-
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
6. KKKonstantin Kisin
  ... Eastern Christian civilization, who are descended from Byzantium, the Eastern Christian Romans Empire, so that's ... The descent of that civilization is Russia now. Uh, the two Islamic civilizations, the Arabs and the Persians, Persians, Iran, China, and India, the Chinese and the Indians, right? W- th- Western civilization has been dominant around the world for many, many centuries now. When th- the dominant civilization becomes weakened, especially from the inside, whichever one that is, what that opens up is what Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping and others are now talking about. This is what they mean when they talk about the multipolar world. What they mean is, they get to play. They get to make a play for that dominant position. They don't ... No one wants to, no one ... The Vladimir Putins and the Xi Jinping's, they don't wanna sing a r- you know, hold hands and sing Kumbaya. That's not what they're into. They want to be the dominant force like America has been for a very long time. And so when- when the king of the heil- hill gets weaker and signals weakness to others, what happens is conflict. That's what happens. So, even if you don't think Western values are good values, which I happen to think they are, for reasons we can get into, the fact that we are increasing the level of conflict around the world by signaling weakness, I think is a bad thing, right? So Ukraine is a very good example of that. Whether Taiwan happens, as some people are predicting, or we don't know, it's not a good thing. If you look at what happened in Israel, the reason Hamas felt comfortable to attack Israel on October 7th as they did, is the Iranians who back Hamas feel comfortable in challenging Israel, because Israel is America's ally in the Middle East, right? So there is this great game being played, and- and it is about throwing the west off its pedestal. So even if you weren't comfortable with the West's dominance, the fact that it is likely coming to an end is a bad thing for the world in the interim, because it means there's more conflict, uh, and there's more violence, uh, and there's more strife and there's more discord.
39:44 – 41:59
Who's Brainwashing Us?
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  And just to be clear, the reason why it's coming to an end in your view is because of the internal division and the internal conflict?
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  That's part of it. L- look, it's a v- look, the- the- the rise and decline of civilizations is a very complicated thing. Part of it is economic.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Right? But even if you look at our economic problems, um, the biggest problem that Western countries face is our level of debt, right?
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Look at debt as a societal issue, uh, national debt. What does that mean? Well, one of the things it means is we've- we've broken the intergenerational conf- uh, intergenerational contract between your generation and your children's generation, and the generation before yours and mine, right? Effectively, our parents are unwilling to sacrifice for their grandchildren. That's what debt means. Because what we are doing is we're borrowing from the future, right? We are operating at more than a hundred percent GDP debt at the moment, and we are increasing it all the time because we're running deficits. America is borrowing like crazy. What does that mean? You and I are not gonna be ... Even you and I are not gonna be paying it off. Our children will, right? Is that the behavior of people who feel like they're one, that they're united, that they're looking after the next generation? Look at GDP per capita. I mean, one of the reasons, uh, we have, uh, levels of mass immigration that we do today, politicians will tell you, "We need mass immigration to boost our economy," and they're only half lying. Um, they're- they're telling you that because it's true. In order that they can pretend our GDP is growing, we need to bring in more people. But our GDP per capita is falling and has been for some time. So the Gen Z generation are gonna be poorer than you and I. Is that a reflection of a society that is cohesive? Is that a reflection of a society that feels like it's one, that we are looking after the next generation, which is our first duty-
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  ... as people, right? Um, so even our economic problems, which are significant, in my opinion, are partly because of the cultural malaise that we experience. And then everything flows from that. As we talked about at the beginning, if you brainwash people for decades now to think that their society is bad and wrong and evil, well, they're not gonna be willing to advance this interest. They're not gonna be able to go and fight and defend it in war, et cetera. We are weakening ourselves.
41:59 – 47:22
What Is Marxism & Does It Work At A Society Level?
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Who's doing the brainwashing?
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  A lot of it has been happening in academia since the '60s, so educators, uh, who were, uh, being encouraged and funded and supported by my boys from the Soviet Union at the time to demoralize the West, they encouraged a lot of these Marxists. And one of the things we haven't yet touched on is, um, the ideology of wokeness is really a new form of Marxism. It's a kind of race Marxism. I know this sounds like very abstract and crazy. I dunno if it does to you, but maybe too many people in your audience, so-
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  ... perhaps I can lay it out a little bit.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Can you explain what Marxism is as well?
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Sure.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  So Marxism was an ideology created obviously by Karl Marx and Engels, who- who funded him and assisted him, and the idea was very simple. Uh, the idea was that the way to understand human society is through the lens of oppression, right?... we, we've talked about this before, right? There are some people who are the oppressors and some people who are oppressed. Who are the oppressors in Marx's original idea? The oppressors were the bourgeois, the capitalists, the people who owned what he called the means of production; the factories, the, the capital, the stock. Like, you are a, you are now a, a member of the bourgeoisie, a capitalist. You own a business, right? And what he said was that you are oppressing your producer and everyone who works for you, because you take their labor and you profit from it without giving them back the right amount of value in exchange. Um, and by the way, just like with a lot of these other ideas, it was true in the sense that Marxism really is a reaction to the rampant abuse that was caused by the Industrial Revolution, in which, you know, you had people sleeping in factories, and chimney s- sweeps that were 12 years old up chimneys, you know, dying f- all of that, right? So as with all of these ideas, there is a kernel of truth. But what he said, and, you know, the people who really practiced this idea the most were the Soviets and the Chinese communists is, "Well, how do you solve this problem?" Oh, very simple. You've gotta take from the oppressors and you've gotta give to the oppressed, from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. However, the problem is, it turns out that communism is effectively a great idea at the family level. Like, your family is a communist society. So is mine. Like, I go out to work. I earn money. We spend it together on the needs of my wife, my children, blah, blah, blah. That's communism, right? We share what one productive person produces. Other people do other jobs. They may not be paid as well, blah, blah, blah. At the level of society, doesn't really work because people are self-interested, and to make them not self-interested, to make them all give up everything for the needs of the state and of other people, you have to use a lot of force, right?
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
11. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Which is why you have to kill 50 million people in Russia, 50 million people in China, to even make it happen. Now what happened was y- you gotta remember. This is very important. People forget this. When the Soviet Union was created, it was not designed to be a countrywide phenomenon. The communists believed that the on- and rightly, by the way, that the only way communism would work is if you made everyone in the world communist. Because if you made everyone communist, then no one could look at over the border and look at these c- evil capitalists having a great life. Everyone would be equally poor, and then they'd be happy. That was the idea, right? Um, and so the idea of the R- the Russian Revolution wasn't about making Russia communists, communist. It was about making the world communist. It was the world revolution. That's why the Soviet Union, the, the, the, the symbolism of the Soviet Union, it never had anything to do with Russia or the Soviet Union on the flag. It had the globe and the hammer and sickle. The point was this ideology was meant to spread to the entire world. The problem was that when people saw what was actually happening in the Soviet Union, they really didn't want that. And most of all, people in Western societies, including the working class who were supposed to be the oppressed and to overthrow their oppressive people, they didn't want that. They just wanted to have a nice life and to have a house and to blah, blah, blah. Um, and so the Marxists in The West, they very quickly realized that this wasn't gonna work. Western working class people were not gonna overthrow the existing regime and have a, a Soviet-style revolution where they slaughter all the bourgeois and the capitalists. So they had to find a different way to approach it, which is why they invented this form of race Marxism. They said, "No, no, you're n- No, you're not really oppressed 'cause you're working class and you don't have capital. The reason you're oppressed is you're a man, you're gay, you're Black, you're this, you're that." And that really landed with people, particularly multiethnic societies like ours where we have a lot of people from minority backgrounds. Um, it coincided with the sexual revolution. I know you've had my friend, Louise Perry, on the show.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
13. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Uh, I don't know if you talked about this, but the pill basically changes the relationship between men and women. Women are liberated, so now a lot of this stuff also happens. And so what happened in the '60s is a lot of educators in academia started teaching these ideas to students, and then you have successive generations of people who are now essentially trained to think that our societies were bad. Uh, what they were was about oppression, racism, bigotry, imperialism, uh, colonialism, slavery, et cetera, uh, which all of these things have a kernel of truth, and that kernel of truth is used to tell gigantic lies.
47:22 – 53:25
The Division In The West
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  And 'cause I... 'Cause often when we, we talk about this division that's happening internally within The West-
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... we think of it as the other side are doing it, but a second ago, you really pointed out forces far afield are tinkering. And actually, there was a story this week, I think, or last week, where a podcaster-
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... has been, I think, like, arrested and had her channels deleted because it turns out... I didn't go deep into the story, so-
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  She hasn't been arrested, but yes.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Oh, okay.
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Uh, perhaps I can just summarize it quickly.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Sure, please.
11. KKKonstantin Kisin
  So there was a company in America called Tenet Media who were given $10 million in a very short period of time, so I'm sure it would have been more, by a Russia Today affiliated, uh, influencers and various nefarious actors from Russia effectively to, uh, disseminate certain types of information through right-wing influencers in America, and this has been happening for decades. There's a guy called Yuri Bezmenov. If you're not familiar with him, this guy's gonna blow your mind. You should look him up. He was a Soviet defector, uh, in the '80s who came, uh, from the Soviet Union to India to Canada, ended up in America. He gave a series of lectures, which people can watch on YouTube, about what the Soviet intelligence services were actually focusing on, because during the Cold War, you might not remember this, but, uh, y- you know, people thought about Soviet spies as, like, stealing microfilms of American nuclear installations and all of this stuff. Actually, what he said was almost all of their resources were used on what he called demoralization, and demoralization is the process whereby you...... divide society, and you activate nefarious forces within that society against a society. So you encourage forces that are destabilizing. This is one thing that people don't understand about Russian misinformation, disinformation, influence operations, et cetera. They're not designed to get a specific person elected. This is how British people and Americans think. They're like, "You know, well, I invest $10 million to get this outcome." That's not what they do. What they want is to create a cacophony of lies so that you don't know what to believe anymore. "Is this true? Is that true?" And so y- they were... They are and were, and have always been paying people in the West, or using people in the West, to sow discord, to divide people against each other, to say, uh... The Soviet Union, by the way, was very active in f- in funding militant, uh, African American groups, uh, in the '60s and '70s and '80s in America. And in fact, whenever people would say to, uh, the Soviets, "Well, look, you're, like, starving millions of people and putting them in gulags," by th- they would say, "Well, what about black people in America? They're... You don't treat them well, right? So who are you to tell us about all of this stuff?" So by the way, th- this isn't, like, um, a unique thing. Like, America does this too. America funds liberal organizations in Russia to get Russian liberals to act in their interest. This is what all civilizations do. I'm just saying, maybe we should protect our civilization from this foreign influence. So yes, uh, foreign forces are at play, but you can't... Like, no, I, I don't know. I imagine there's no amount of money that people could give you to spread Russian propaganda on this show. There's no amount of money that people could give me to spread Russian propaganda or Chinese propaganda on my show. What they do is they find people who already agree with them, and then they amplify their voice using money and influence. They say, "Look, we'll, we'll, we'll give you... You know, we'll give you $10 million, and you can come to this great conference. We'll, we'll give you an opportunity to interview this guy who's close to Vladimir Putin, or, or this guy who says this, or that person, or this person." And they, they just take the forces within our society that are already destabilizing, and they amplify them.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  So this podcaster in the United States-
13. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  It was Tenent Media.
15. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yes.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Is that one podcaster? Is that a network of podcasts?
17. KKKonstantin Kisin
  So what happened is they had a network of podcasters underneath them, who is, according to the indictment, they were all being used, so they didn't know they were being paid by Russia.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  Okay.
19. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Um, they were just all being used. And every now and again... As again, we don't know the full details, but it would be like, "Hey, have you seen this news story? Like, the Ukrainians might have been involved in the terrorist attack in Russia. Maybe you should cover it." And one of them did, stuff like that.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  Ah, okay. And they weren't necessarily picking a side, were they?
21. KKKonstantin Kisin
  No, they were picking a side.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  Oh, so they were pro-Trump or pro-Kamala or?
23. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Well, they were mostly right-wing influencers.
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
25. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Uh, but the person in question, whose name is Lauren Chen, she actually started agitating people against Donald Trump at one point, which is my point. They are not trying to get a particular person elected. They are trying to make you go, "Well, who do I vote for? What's gonna..." Like, just to, to confuse everybody to the point that they don't know what to believe and they don't know what to think and they don't know what to do.
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  Looks like it's working.
27. KKKonstantin Kisin
  That's my point, which is why we need, in the West, to have a very clear idea of who we are, where we're going, how we got here, what makes our society successful, where we've come from, and to reject the lies about our history, because this is why, uh, both the crazy left and the crazy right want to revise our history, so that we don't know who we are anymore, so that we can't say, "Well, actually, Britain is a great country and has done incredible things for the world." Right? Uh, you know, Britain is the country that has the first modern parliament. It's the country that spread democracy around the... It's, it's a country that actually... The first empire in history that ended slavery. It ended slavery. It, it didn't invent it, it ended it. Slavery was the norm, and then the British came along, practiced slavery just like everybody else and the terrible thing it was. And then they spent a tremendous amount of blood, money and treasure to end slavery, not only within the British Empire, they spent a huge amount of diplomatic, military and financial capital to for- to force other countries to end slavery in those countries as well, right? But that's not what you're being taught in school right now, is it?
28. SBSteven Bartlett
  No.
29. KKKonstantin Kisin
  And, and that's the problem, because if you think of your society as based on these terrible things, well, why would you want its values to persevere and continue i- in the future?
53:25 – 55:51
How Do We Stop This Division?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  It made me wonder if there is any hope or any solution to this, because immediately as I was thinking, "Is there a way to stop the division?" And most of the division actually happens on the internet now.
2. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  It's not like we're out in the streets.
4. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  And the way the algorithms work is they reinforce an opinion, so you get literally, like, coins at the casino for saying something where a big group of people clap.
6. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  And nuance is, like, the enemy of social media growth, I think.
8. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Like, if you... If... Like, if you express a solution to a problem as complex and nuanced-
10. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... who the fuck, who the fuck wants to hear a complex and nuanced... Like, really, the, the... I think there's much more reward for me to say, "This is bad-"
12. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yes.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... or "This is amazingly good."
14. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yes.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  And if you're in either of those camps, you know exactly who's clapping.
16. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yes.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  Whereas in the middle, a- as we've kind of... You probably experience it a lot as a podcaster, um, like, you don't get the support (laughs) the full support of either side.
18. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  Maybe, maybe the middle exists, I don't know.
20. KKKonstantin Kisin
  The... Well, the center is the place of greatest tension.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  Right.
22. KKKonstantin Kisin
  It always is, because you're getting fire from both sides.
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah (laughs) .
24. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Uh, and picking a tribe is always much more comfortable and more convenient, but this is where I think actually the beauty of the internet is too. Like, 20 years ago, you and I both would have had some kind of rich funder, not me or you, but someone who actually had loads of money, who would be funding this and telling you what you were supposed to talk about. I don't have to give a shit what anyone thinks. There is an audience out there for the nuanced, balanced, here's the thing I think about this, but also about this take, and, you know, l- look, yes, absolutely, uh, you know, if you're Andrew Tate, you're gonna get a bigger audience saying what you're saying.... or the equivalent of, of the left, whatever that looks like, uh, then I might. But, you know, I'm very happy with a million subscribers on YouTube. I'm very happy that 60,000 people read my Substacks every week. And that's growing too. There is a market out there for everybody. And then ultimately for, it, I think it comes down to is, who are you? And w- who do you want to be? I didn't get into this to be the richest or the most successful podcaster in the world. I got into this because I wanted to promote critical thinking. I wanted to promote the truth and the pursuit of truth. I don't claim to know the truth, but I'm trying to find out what it is. Um, and I wanted people in the West to remember what they have, to be grateful for it, to defend it, uh, to stand up for the values that made these societies great.
55:51 – 1:01:36
What's The Impact Of An Agnostic Society?
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  You said a second ago that we've, we need to remember who we are.
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Um, if we are gonna be successful as a society.
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  And one of the things that did sort of anchor us in values was religion.
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yes.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  And I, I'm, um, I, I was born to a very religious Christian family.
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Hmm.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Um, went to church a lot when we were younger. Um, my mother's still extremely religious. My father is religious as well, I believe. I still think he's religious. And at about 18 or 19 years old, I discovered like Richard Dawkins books-
11. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and had this like existential crisis for two years.
13. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Didn't we all? (laughs) Didn't we all? (laughs)
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs) And then after the existential crisis, which lasted two years and me like, you know, really trying to find answers, I kind of was at just peace with it. And I would class myself now as being agnostic.
15. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  But in the last six months, I class myself as being agnostic, but...
17. KKKonstantin Kisin
  You're bi-curious now. (laughs)
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  Bi-curious. (laughs)
19. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  It's like I've gone... (laughs)
21. KKKonstantin Kisin
  You're, you're God curious.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  You can always feel me going back to the beginning again.
23. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah, yeah.
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  But much of that I think is what you described, which is because we've become more individualistic, more lonely, all these kinds of things, we're now searching for purpose again.
25. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yes.
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  And for, for values that are anchored in something.
27. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yes.
28. SBSteven Bartlett
  Um, I wondered what your take was on the impact that us becoming a more atheist society has had on all these things.
29. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Look, I'm an agnostic myself. Um, I, that's not to say that I think w- you know, I'm not a materialist in the sense of like, this is it. Right? This is definitely not it.
30. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
1:01:36 – 1:03:52
Why Men Love Combat Sports
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
  the blame, he's to me is the symptom of a, of, of a much bigger underlying wider problem. Like, my generation's version of that was Jordan Peterson, who I thought was a very constructive force and still is. I had the privilege of touring with him in America, uh, this year, and it was incredible, and he's a very positive, constructive person. But the more you try to prevent men from being men, the more you're gonna get the backlash. And I think people joining Islam, following these hyper-masculine influences, going to... Like, one of the reasons, if you notice, loads of guys are, like, now into going to the gym and being, like, not just going to the gym to, like, be healthy, but, like, they're buff, right? 'Cause that's one of the very few acceptable ways for men to be men in modern society, right? Because the things that we conventionally would associate with masculinity, you know, strength, confidence, aggression, dominance, et cetera, they're kind of looked down upon for guys nowadays, right? Um, and so, "Well, at least I can go to the gym and I can look buff," right?
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  It's so true. I was just thinking about-
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... the people my father might have looked up to. He's from Coventry.
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  And when I, l-, from my memory of his idols, they were, like, rock stars in bands.
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  They were, like, skinny, like, probably smoked some weed. They all had long hair. My dad had long hair-
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... as well, like this, down to the shoulders-
11. KKKonstantin Kisin
  (laughs) .
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... when I saw some old photos of him. And I imagine his version of, like, the Andrew Tate was that, I don't know, the lead singer of, like, The Beatles or whatever.
13. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Or his favorite rock band. But you're right. All of our people we look up to in society, they probably do Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
15. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Right.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs) They go to the gym.
17. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  There's some, they, they fight in some way.
19. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  Boxing, UFC-
21. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... whatever. And it's mu- you know, 'cause s-
23. KKKonstantin Kisin
  I think that's one of the reasons that the UFC is crushing it as hard as it is. I mean, Dana White is a brilliant business guy, and it's a great product, and it's fascinating. But I think one of the reasons there's such an obsession with combat sports nowadays is that it's, like, "Well, at least I can see, like, men being men" type of thing. Do you know what I mean? 'Cause nowhere else am I gonna get that. I think that's w- it's undoubtedly, to me, a kind of, like, missed place, misplaced masculinity. Maybe it's not misplaced. It's just, like, the one place you can actually see it, you know? And you're allowed to celebrate masculinity in that way, the, the hyper-masculinity. Uh, it's, it's a very interesting moment that we're in.
1:03:52 – 1:05:13
The Solution For Men's Issues
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Is th- is there a solution that you can see to the issues that men are facing in, in the sort of modern world, where suicide rates are through the roof, loneliness, depression?
2. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Look, the solution for men is always gonna be the same, uh, which is to be better, to do better, to work harder, to learn skills, to grow, to develop, uh, to look for mentors, to look for guidance, uh, and to do things. It's always gonna be the way. Like, the, no, ag- like I said, no one's coming to save you. And this is, uh, sp- this is why victimhood that we talked about earlier, it's especially bad for men, 'cause, you know, we feel sorry for women. We don't really feel sorry for men, right? So if a woman is a victim, everyone wants to, like, go and help her and support her, and it's un- just natural and understandable. There's a very good evolution of reasons for this, I think, um, which is men are biologically disposable, basically. Um, you know, if you have a tribe of 10 men, 10 women, you send the men off to war, one comes back, you can replenish the tribe, and that's the one very lucky dude. If, if you do it the other way around, and you send the women off to war, you're screwed, right? And so, um, men are kinda disposable. We didn't evolve to feel sorry for them. And so for guys, again, like, you just gotta do stuff and be better, and yes, you've been dealt a bad hand. You have compared to the previous generations where, like, men were in charge and all of that. You're gonna have to find a way.
1:05:13 – 1:09:32
Is The Woke Culture Putting Men In This Situation?
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  And wokeism, um, and sort of, I guess, political correctness and cancel culture and all these things are much of the weapons that are used to f- put men in those situations, you would argue.
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah, yeah. Uh, but, you know, th- I, I think with, I always worry when we have these conversations that, um, to say that men s- uh, young men especially, younger than me, I think, have a bad deal is often, like, people s- try and immediately shove you in some kind of box. Like, you're some men's rights blah, blah, blah. I just think that's an observable fact, and the reason I think it's important is, um, that men and women need to work together.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Men and women have had to work together for the entire history of human existence. One of the terrible things about wokeness is that it creates these divisions between men and women, you know? Men are this, women are that, and you see the, the f- the response to that from the aggressive masculine side. Now, "Oh, women are all this, and women are all that." Actually, w- the thing that men and women really need more than anything is each other. They need to work together. That operates at the level of your relationship with your girlfriend, my wife, but broader society too. Like, we have different skillsets. We are naturally inclined to do all these different things. We have to find ways to work together better, um, and so when one side suffers, there was a time when women were treated very badly, a lot of them. That wasn't good. Uh, treating men badly isn't gonna work out well either. What you really need is finding ways for men and women to be healthy together in relationships, um, and so that's, I think, important to say, that that's the objective. If that's the goal, if that's the objective that we're holding up, then the question is, how do we get there? And, and the question, the answer to that is not to point fingers at the other sex and say, "They are this and they are that," but to go, "Well, men are naturally..."... aggressive, and dominant, and status seeking, and all of this stuff. And let's find ways to channel that into effective things. Like, we need guys to, like, stand on construction sites and hammer shit into the ground and all of that. Um, and we need women to do other things that are more natural to them. I mean, look, once you have a kid then you start taking him to, like, nursery, you find out that, you know, there is no gender equality in a kindergarten. It's, like, mostly women that run that place, and that's the way it should be, and that, that makes sense. So, um, we have different inclinations, different skill sets. It's not say there aren't exceptions of ... Of course there are, right?
6. NANarrator
  (laughs)
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  But generally speaking, we need to work together. That's the point.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah, and I think even, um, mentioning that there might be biological differences in male and female is where people, like the, you know, those that are looking for-
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah, they need to man up.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... what aboutery (laughs) -
11. NANarrator
  (laughs)
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... they come out in, in full arms. But I think anyone in their private relationship can v- very clearly state the differences between m- men and women. And as you say, they're not sweeping, and there are exceptions.
13. KKKonstantin Kisin
  But how beneficial... I don't know anything about you.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
15. KKKonstantin Kisin
  We, we've just met. But I imagine your girlfriend's been instrumental in your life. Would that be fair to say?
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Of course. Of course.
17. KKKonstantin Kisin
  I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am without my wife.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah. Yeah.
19. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Like, and we both reap the benefits of that.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
21. KKKonstantin Kisin
  I'm sure that's the case with you.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
23. KKKonstantin Kisin
  That's how it's supposed to work, on an individual level and at the level of society. Holding each other up, filling in gaps. Like, the first time... I remem- you know something, when I was young, when I was about 20, like full of testosterone, I remember watching my mum resolve a conflict with a joke and a smile. And to me, it was like magic. It was like, "Whoa, you can do that?" And then I... Th- that was a helpful thing for me to learn, you know.
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
25. KKKonstantin Kisin
  But in my masculine boarding school kind of environment, you'd never do that, right?
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
27. KKKonstantin Kisin
  It was all about who can, like, win and fight and dominate and whatever. We're useful to each other. We can learn from each other. That's the attitude that we should have towards each other and the other sex.
28. SBSteven Bartlett
  I love the w- the term you used there when you said, "Hold me up," because that's exactly what my partner does for me.
29. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Right.
30. SBSteven Bartlett
  And I think she'd probably say the other, the same for her.
1:09:32 – 1:11:02
We Need To Call Men Back In
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  men like Harvey Weinstein and stuff? Like-
2. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah, terrible, of course.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... the, the whole Me Too movement exposed this wave of like-
4. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  I, someone on my podcast today was a, a neuroscientist in America. He said, um, "We've called men out."
6. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  But we need to make sure we call them back in (laughs) , if that kind of makes sense.
8. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Well, I think the mistake we made was we called men out instead of calling toxic men out. In the same way that people who are critical of women now, they will point to certain female traits or certain female people who behave in ways that are very toxic.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
10. KKKonstantin Kisin
  And they will broaden and generalize from that onto all women, right? Harvey Weinstein does not represent me. In fact, throughout history, people like him would have actually been dealt with by good men and prevented from acting in that way, right?
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  I guess the argument is that it is all men because you're having those conversations in your group chat and you're not, not checking your, uh, your friend or your, um, I don't know. Harvey's friends didn't check him.
12. NANarrator
  You know-
13. KKKonstantin Kisin
  What kind of group chats are you reading then?
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  No, (laughs) this is what the, this is what I see online, is like-
15. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Right.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... you gotta check your man. Yeah.
17. KKKonstantin Kisin
  But that, that makes absolutely zero sense. This is, this is the thing, is like, if you wanna generalize about an entire group of people, generally speaking, we think that's a bad thing to do. Like, if you were to do that about Pakistanis, people wouldn't be a- be into that, right? If, if I was to do that about black people, nobody would be into that. But the moment it's men, suddenly that's, that's totally cool. Now we're, now we're gonna do this.
1:11:02 – 1:17:57
The Free Speech Movement
1. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Doesn't make any sense.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Free speech is at the heart of this, right?
3. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Because we're talking about social media platforms, the ability to express ideas and not be scared. Um, free speech has been on a bit of a journey.
5. KKKonstantin Kisin
  (laughs)
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Over the l- even the last 10 years, I think if you just looked at where we were 10 years ago-
7. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Yeah.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and then five years ago, and then the pandemic, and then now, it feels like a- all four of those moments were in a different place.
9. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Mm-hmm.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  What, what's your observation of that story arc of free speech?
11. KKKonstantin Kisin
  Well, it, it's all very contextual, right? It depends where you are, uh, what you do, and what your opinions are. Um, one thing people forget, give you one brief example, right? Because, uh, peop- a lot of people make free speech a political issue. They say, "Well, this side cares about it because they wanna say their stuff. And this side doesn't care about it 'cause blah, blah, blah." Right? During the pandemic, when the vaccine came out in America, the person who was pushing the vaccine was Donald Trump.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
13. KKKonstantin Kisin
  And people who were opponents of his, on the left, said, "I'm not taking Trump's vaccine. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Right? The moment the presidency changed, suddenly you couldn't criticize the vaccine (laughs) , right?
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
15. KKKonstantin Kisin
  And suddenly, you know, you wanted to kill people if you had some reservations about some things about it, right? So free speech usually, and always has been really, uh, is a weapon that people like to use against the other side, which is why you need people in the middle to h- to kind of be the referee and say, "Guys, like I don't care which one of you is in power now. We always need free speech so that we can criticize the people in power." Not the right or the left, but the people in power, whoever that is. Now from about 2014 onwards particularly, I think there was a lot of restriction of speech, uh, from the left.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
17. KKKonstantin Kisin
  From the progressive left. Um, and that was part of wokeness. And by the way, just for y- for your, uh, your audience, I think it might be helpful. I always say this because people don't know this, where the term political correctness comes from. People think political correctness is, you know, let's be, let's not be mean to people. Let's not offend minorities. Let's not make offensive jokes. Blah, blah, blah. Never had anything to do with that. Political correctness was invented in the Soviet Union-... by communists so that they could say to critics of the communist regime, "Well, comrade, what you're saying may be factually correct, but it's politically incorrect, and therefore you should shut up." In other words, it's inconvenient to the party line of the day. And that's how political correctness is used always. It's about preventing you from expressing a dissenting opinion. Um, so from 2016 onwards, you saw lots of that, uh, especially on social media because, uh, the kind of progressive left had a lock on all of those institutions. Facebook, Twitter, uh, Instagram. We can go down the full list. They pandered... I'm not saying the people who ran them were themselves necessarily woke, but they pandered and appeased that fringe, who said, "You can't say that. That's hate speech. You can't say that. That's..." And during the pandemic, we saw real restrictions on it. I understand why. The pandemic killed a hell of a lot of people. There was a hell of a lot of lies being told by people of all different sides. Um, I was uncomfortable with the level of censorship we saw though. I thought that a lot of very reasonable things were prevented from being talked about. One of them was where the virus came from. We now know with almost certainly, it came from a lab in China due to almost certainly gain of function research. Um, Matt Ridley, for example, he's- he's in the House of Lords in the UK, so he's not some fringe random guy, wrote a whole book with a Chinese scientist, Alina Chan, I think her name is. Uh, we've had him on the show to talk about this. If you'd said that on social media in the early days of the pandemic, you would've been banned. Now, we know that's almost certainly what happened and it's really important where the virus came from for obvious reasons, which is if it came from a lab where these people were messing around with viruses, don't we want to know that? 'Cause it could happen again, am I right? Um, so free... The restriction of free speech is dangerous for all sorts of reasons. Um, and then Elon Musk bought Twitter, and I think since then, we've seen that... You know, um, a friend of mine's, um, very fond of saying that, uh, "Zero is a special number." And what he means by that is when you control every single media outlet in the world ma- of that type, social media, you are able to censor everything. But the moment one of those outlets is not controlled by you, censorship becomes pointless because people can go to the other platform and see the things for themselves, right? Which is one of the reasons Mark Zuckerberg has come out recently and said that they were wrong to ban Donald Trump from Facebook and Instagram, and they were wrong to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop story and all of that kind of stuff, and that they wouldn't do so again. Because now, now that there is a platform where that censorship is not happening, he looks kind of bad in this whole thing, right? Um, so I think Elon buying Twitter and opening up the range of conversations has had some very positive effects. It's also had some negative effects, undoubtedly. Uh, and that is a thing that, you know, I- I think a great engineer like Elon will hopefully fine tune over time. Um-

Episode duration: 1:58:45

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Intro

Who Is Konstantin Kisin?

The Threat Coming To The Western World

Are You Politically Affiliated To The Left Or Right?

People Use Politics Labelling As A Weapon

What Is Wokeism?

How Victimhood Has Become Self-Harm

Stereotype Threat

The Need for Role Models

The Impact Of Your Name On A Job Application

Gen Z vs Millennials

Are You Hopeful For Gen Zs?

The World Is Heading In The Wrong Direction

Countries Debt And Who Will Impact The Next Generation

Who's Brainwashing Us?

What Is Marxism & Does It Work At A Society Level?

The Division In The West

How Do We Stop This Division?

What's The Impact Of An Agnostic Society?

Why Men Love Combat Sports

The Solution For Men's Issues

Is The Woke Culture Putting Men In This Situation?

We Need To Call Men Back In

The Free Speech Movement

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