Chase Hughes: How interrogators read rooms in seconds

Steven Bartlett 0:00 (instrumental music plays) So New Year's resolutions are around the corner, and I think 9% of resolutions stick. So what advice have you got for me?

Chase Hughes 0:04 Okay. So, let's say I wanted to lose weight. The first thing is realizing that all of our lives are about habits, not goals. And the second aspect of this is one of the most effective strategies to brainwash yourself to form these new habits, and that is-

Narrator 0:16 Chase Hughes is a former military veteran turned world renowned expert in behavioral analysis and human influence.

0:22 He has trained Secret Service agents, Navy SEAL leaders, CEOs, and government officials to master communication, behavioral detection, and persuasion.

Chase Hughes 0:31 You can look at three factors every single time to determine why someone was successful or why they failed. The first is self-mastery, where we look at confidence, body language, discipline, and authority. And we know that people are hyper-responsive to authority.

Steven Bartlett 0:43 But how do we establish authority ourselves?

Chase Hughes 0:45 Authority is made up of five things, and that's... Number two is their level of observation, and there's five Cs that we talk about in behavior profiling, which we get into. But my favorite example, and one of the fastest ways to get a read on another human being, is how often they're blinking. If I start seeing an increase in someone's blink rate, I know I need to change the subject right away.

Steven Bartlett 1:04 Interesting.

Chase Hughes 1:05 And the third, their level of communication. And if you want to learn how to start a conversation or continue one, this is for you. It comes down to understanding the type of person that you are in front of. And I segregate people into six groups, and that'll influence the best way to talk to those people, which we can get into if you want.

Steven Bartlett 1:20 Please.

Chase Hughes 1:21 Okay. Number one.

Steven Bartlett 1:22 What about how to win an argument? What are the things I should definitely not do?

Chase Hughes 1:25 So the big mistake most people make is... Don't do that.

Steven Bartlett 1:32 This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like the show, and you like what we do here, and you wanna support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so

Steven Bartlett 2:00 much. (instrumental music plays) Chase Hughes, who are you and what is your mission?

Chase Hughes 2:08 I'm a behavior guy, behavior expert, and I think I've just set out to teach people that there is an entire world that other people can't really see, don't have access to. And I think for the last 10,000 years of recorded history, you can look at any event or any leader of any country, and everything that dictates the outcomes of situations comes down to human factors every time. No matter if there's economic turmoil, there's people getting pissed off about an economy, there's AI or technology innovations that are happening, it- everything comes down to human interactions and whether or not you can manage yourself, you're a good leader, who the good leaders are, and who can persuade the people to feel a certain way.

Steven Bartlett 2:54 And who do you do it for?

Chase Hughes 2:56 I think I do it for people that have gone through a period in their life realizing that there's an invisible advantage that some other people have. The people that got successful maybe have some kind of advantage that they're not able to, to tangibly see. And I think showing them that this is one of the biggest levers that you could ever pull in your life is the most rewarding and fascinating thing to see, someone go through this transition to realize that this human behavior stuff dictates

Chase Hughes 3:28 outcomes in life.

Steven Bartlett 3:30 When you say this, you're referring to human behavior.

Chase Hughes 3:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 3:33 And is human behavior, is it like a set of tactics? Is it like a form of psychology? What is, what is this, when you say the word this?

Chase Hughes 3:42 When I say human behavior, I mean that when a person becomes successful or they become a failure, you can look at three factors every single time to determine why someone was successful or why they failed. That is, their level of self-mastery, their level of observation. Like, can they read the room? Can they read the person that they're actually talking to? And their level of communication. Can they speak influentially? Can they talk about outcomes in a way that inspire people and motivate people, and can they communicate in a persuasive way

Chase Hughes 4:17 that moves people?

Steven Bartlett 4:18 And who exactly have you worked with?

Chase Hughes 4:22 Lots of government agencies. Uh, notably, I've worked with intelligence agencies, I've worked with the psychological operations department, US Army, which is the Special Operations Command. I've trained a lot of the US Navy leaders nowadays, and a lot of civilians are my main base of clients right now.

Steven Bartlett 4:43 What do intelligence, what do you do for intelligence agents?

Chase Hughes 4:47 So when we talk to intelligence agents, the number one thing that we train them in is recognizing human behavior, and we also teach interrogation. And we tend to teach, like, if I'm doing an interrogation, it's kind of the same as if I'm, uh, an intelligence officer somewhere trying to talk somebody into spying on their own country for us. Both of those things are about talking someone into doing something that's not really in their best interest. So when it comes down to that, that's really where we get to the point the rubber meets the road. Can you talk someone into doing something that they, A, normally wouldn't do, which is maybe sales, 'cause they normally, they wouldn't have otherwise done that. Or B, in the interrogation world, can I talk you into something that you wouldn't want to do 'cause it's not in your best interest, like confessing to a crime or providing intelligence, or something like that. And that's where we really do a lot of the training for

Chase Hughes 5:41 police and government.

Steven Bartlett 5:43 You know what, next to me there's this massive book called the Behavior Ops Manual. It's probably the biggest book I've ever seen. Um, what is the wealth of experience that have fed into this body of work?

Chase Hughes 5:53 That book right there is my entire life, so probably 30 to 40,000 hours of...... research on this stuff, every technique that I've ever learned or taught, every method that we've ever used for interrogations or persuasion or influence. All that stuff is inside of the Behavior Ops Manual, and I wrote that book, and we can get into that if you want to right now. I received a brain diagnosis where I thought I was going to lose my brain, and I was desperate. I'm just wondering, "How is my family gonna feed itself?" So, I wanted to put every single piece of knowledge that I've ever created or I've ever come up with for any government agent, everything, all on the table, and that's what this book was. It's just a culmination of everything.

Steven Bartlett 6:41 And you served in the military

Steven Bartlett 6:42 yourself?

Chase Hughes 6:43 I did, for 20 years.

Steven Bartlett 6:45 What is the most common thing that people come to your work for? Like, if you were to encapsulate it into, like, a sentence, what they're searching for in their own personal lives?

Chase Hughes 6:54 It would be a person that is lacking some degree of control in some aspect of their life, and it's typically, they think they need skills. Most of my clients come to me saying, "I want the technique. I want the skill. Teach me the, the recipe to do X, Y, and Z. What do I say on the phone? Give me a new sales script." So, I have this model called the ACSS model that I train to my entire staff, and that ACSS model stands for authority, comfort, social skills, and then skills. 90% of people say they need more skills, but what they need is authority or comfort, and they can't be comfortable in a conversation.

Steven Bartlett 7:35 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 7:36 So, I could give you, like I would talk to these clients, and I would say, "I could spend $10 million writing the best persuasion script for whatever your ideal outcome is, hand you this thing on a silver platter, and if you're not comfortable in that conversation, you're not going to be successful." So, I could give it to somebody with social anxiety and have them go read this out loud. It's not Harry Potter. We're not reading spells. It's not a spell. So, a lot of people's problems come from comfort, a lack of being able to be comfortable in, in a conversation, and the level of authority that they might have. And I don't mean hierarchical authority. I just mean personal authority. But they don't know it. They think it's, "I need more social skills, I need to learn small talk, or I need this little technique." So, every time, the one thing I tell every client is, "If I give you a flight checklist right now for a, a small plane, a Cessna 172-"

Steven Bartlett 8:32 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 8:33 "... are you a pilot? No." Having this little checklist of what to do does not give you the skill. So, a lot of that, so much of that comes from comfort. And the problem that a lot of people have is they're competing with other people on height, on looks, on social status, money, hierarchy, confidence, all this other stuff. The number one thing you need to compare yourself with other people on is comfort. That's it, is, "Can I be more comfortable than the other person in, in this conversation?" Because our brains are naturally wired to compete. We can't turn competition off, but we can change what they're focused on, and if they're focused on comfort, we win a lot more conversations.

Steven Bartlett 9:12 Comfort?

Chase Hughes 9:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:13 How does that manifest? Is that just, like, being, like, physically comfortable? What is that?

Chase Hughes 9:18 (laughs) Yeah. It would be physical comfort. So, one of the challenges I give to people is, "For your first week, all, the only thing I want you to focus on, I'm not going to give you this long list to go look into your phone and have to read it before every meeting. The one thing I want you to focus on this week is, can you move slower than the other people in the room? That's it. Just adjusting the speed limit on your body. So, if you were standing in a swimming pool, how fast would your arms and legs move if you were underwater? And make that the speed limit for this entire week. That's all I want you to focus on," and that makes so many changes in people's mind because we change our bodies and we change how we're, our emotions are feeling. And there's one thing that fear does, it speeds our body up. So, if you see someone doing these rapid, jerky movements, you're, you're seeing mostly fear or stress in their body.

Steven Bartlett 10:13 So, get more comfortable in an interaction conversation, even if it's on the phone or in person?

Chase Hughes 10:20 Yeah. So on the phone, it would be speaking at a normal composed pace.

Steven Bartlett 10:25 Okay.

Chase Hughes 10:26 And then, so step two is composure. "Can I get you into a place where you have some composure?" And the left and right side of composure, we have collapse and we have posturing. So, we- I have a person that makes themselves small so other people can be comfortable, or I make myself big so other people can get away from me.

Steven Bartlett 10:47 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 10:48 And we have, we see that with every aspect of our lives. Like, when I first started my business, or when I first got out of the military, these people called me for a keynote. So, this guy calls me and he's like, "What's your hourly rate?" And I said, "6K." Uh, and I said, "That's including travel and all that." And the only thing he did, he didn't say anything on the phone, he just goes, "Hm." That's it. He just made that noise. (laughs) And right away, I said, "Oh, yeah, but we could do a discount. I could probably do, like, 5K. We could even take some off, 50%. I could even take 75% since you're here, here, and I have to do this," and just made up excuses. And I almost got to the point where I was like, "Let me pay you. I'll give you some money if you come let me speak on stage for you," and that's collapse. So that's, I'm in collapse in some areas of my life. I might posture in some areas of my life, and our goal is to get out of that swing. But the problem most people have, if I'm living in collapse, the solution looks like posturing. And we see this in, like, guys that learn pickup. Like, "I'm gonna learn how to posture because it's the opposite of what I'm doing. It's not the center where I need to be."

Steven Bartlett 11:56 And what is the center? That's, that's composure?

Chase Hughes 11:58 That would be composure. And I would say composure is a combination of the things that make up authority, and authority is made up of five things, and that's confidence-... discipline, leadership, gratitude, and enjoyment. So I have an authority inventory. This is day one, the first thing that I give to intelligence people or I've got a guy that owns a car dealership, whoever the client is. And it's the authority assessment. It assesses you on those things. And wherever your lowest point is, that's what's keeping you from being successful in most conversations when you need to persuade somebody, and it pinpoints it very quickly. If I could go into this a little further, um, the way that we live our lives off-camera, I'm sure you would agree. You just had Vanessa Van Edwards on.

Steven Bartlett 12:46 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 12:47 Uh, it, it bleeds out in our body language. It bleeds out in all... Not just body language, but how we breathe, how we talk, how we come across. So even if I read that article on LinkedIn of 19 ways to look more confident and it says, "Well, have better posture, sit up straighter, shake hands, make better eye contact," I did all of that, and I look really presentable. But back home, I've got a eight-foot pile of laundry sitting in the bedroom. My bed's nasty. I've got dishes all piled up in the sink. There's a part of our brain that's somehow dedicated to reminding us, "I'm faking it right now."

Steven Bartlett 13:23 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 13:24 And that comes across. So whether we're doing it consciously or unconsciously, we're manufacturing gut feelings in other people. So our job is to manufacture better gut feelings, and the five most common ways that those bleed out in our everyday life is how we manage five areas of our life, and that is our environment, like, do I take care of my environment, my, uh, time, appearance, my social life, and my financial life. Because those are the, those are the five things we worry about in the back of our head that start bleeding out these gut feelings. 'Cause we've all had a conversation where everything on the surface looked great, but afterwards, we were like, "Something was off. I don't know what it was, but something was just didn't feel right about that guy." And we've all had that little experience. And getting ahold of your... those five qualities that make up authority are the fastest way to get success in your life and just drastically start changing your life.

Steven Bartlett 14:30 So, it's really that, the controllable element. It's our environment, our time, our appearance, our social life, and our finances. That's the, like, controllable foundation to all these other things, um, that we talked about.

Chase Hughes 14:40 Yeah, so that would be the- the bottom foundation of that little pyramid, and

Chase Hughes 14:45 the far-left side of that triangle would be confidence, discipline, leadership, gratitude, and enjoyment.

Steven Bartlett 14:50 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 14:51 And those elements alone produce feelings in other people that make them see an authority figure. And you've heard of the Milgram experiment?

Steven Bartlett 15:00 Oh, gosh, it reminds me of something I read when I was 16 in psychology class, in a textbook.

Chase Hughes 15:05 Probably did.

Steven Bartlett 15:06 That was the one where they got people to shock each other.

Chase Hughes 15:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:09 Please explain.

Chase Hughes 15:10 All right, let me give you a quick recap. It's Yale University, and I think it's 1962. And Yale runs an ad in the paper that says, "Come help us with this study on learning, and we'll give you 20 bucks, or a lunch voucher, or something like that." So all these volunteers come out, and there's a tall guy in a lab coat, an official clipboard there, and there's one other volunteer, and you draw straws. One of you is the teacher. One of you is the learner. So you're let into this room. You watch this learner guy get strapped up. He's on this table getting strapped up to this electric shock machine, and every time he gets a question on this quiz wrong, you've gotta shock him. You have to hit the button. And every progressive question, you increase the voltage on this machine that goes all the way up on the far right to XXX Danger: Severe Shock, is what it says on there. But the whole time you're shocking him, the g- you can hear the guy screaming on the other side of the wall.

Steven Bartlett 16:06 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 16:06 He's screaming. And midway through the process, the guy's banging on the wall, and he's like, "I have a heart condition. I don't wanna do this anymore. I'm out. I quit. I don't wanna do the experiment." And 90% of these people turn around to the guy in the lab coat, and the guy in the lab coat's like, "Please continue. It's important that you continue the experiment." So they keep going and going, and almost to the end, no more response. There's just silence. The guy doesn't even respond to questions. And the guy in the lab coat says, "Any non-answer (laughs) has to be treated as if it were an incorrect answer. Please continue." And they keep going and going and going. And you c- you, you can watch. Some, some of these are on video. And you just watch this... their faces toward the end. These psychiatrists at the beginning of this predicted less than 1% would go all the way. 67% of people go all the way. And 250 volts is enough to kill you. 100% went up to 250. The presence of novelty and authority did everything. It made a person commit murder, and that's... I would say, I would argue, that's more difficult than selling someone a car.

Steven Bartlett 17:19 And that authority comes, in that particular example, came from going to the university, the lab coat, et cetera. But how do we establish authority ourselves? Is it, going back to the things you said there, about environment, appearance, et cetera-

Chase Hughes 17:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:31 ... finances?

Chase Hughes 17:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:33 Is there, like... Are there, are there physical expressions of that authority on a day-to-day basis?

Chase Hughes 17:37 There are. Slowness of movement is one of the most common. So we have slowness of movement. So the right side of that authority triangle, uh, has five letters on it, and that stands for movement, appearance, confidence, connection, and intent. Is our intent visible? That outward sign of authority is what a lot of people tend to look for. What does authority look like? But what we're really doing is... I wanna look at the symptoms of authority, not the cause.'Cause we're, we're- all these LinkedIn articles, YouTube videos that are saying how to have more confidence, how to do X, Y, and Z, or how to have the symptoms instead of the cause of authority. So, people with authority tend to sit up straight, but they don't sit up straight because they read an article. They sit up straight because they see the world a certain way. And that's so much of a difference between changing my worldview versus changing my posture. It's very different outcomes, and we're still generating those gut feelings in people.

Steven Bartlett 18:41 Interesting. Have you worked with many people that come to you and they've got a c- clear authority problem? Is there a particular example you can think of where you were able to help someone turn their life around?

Chase Hughes 18:50 Many. Hundreds.

Steven Bartlett 18:51 Give me your favorite example.

Chase Hughes 18:53 My favorite example was a big CEO. He's in Los Angeles, and he asks me for skills. He starts off, "I need, (laughs) I need the flight checklist. I don't need to learn to fly, I just need the checklist." Uh, but it takes me a while to kind of walk people back and say like, "Let's get to the root of this," 'cause you can't just openly say, "You have an authority and, and comfort problem."

Steven Bartlett 19:14 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 19:15 And his employees would like openly make fun of him in board meetings and stuff like that, and he didn't like it. And it, it... His company was going downhill so fast. And I took him through this process of gaining... "Let's, let's build up your confidence, discipline, leadership, gratitude, and enjoyment. All of those things. And let's find where your lowest point is of those five. If I could just find your lowest point on that five list, then I know the highest leverage thing that I can do." So, if the highest leverage that he can do would be confidence, that's the number one thing I'm gonna start working on. And the moment we took him through that process, it was only a couple of months, and we used a lot of hypnosis. We used a lot of, um... I literally used brainwashing techniques to help him. So, it's the same techniques. And you know what, uh, cognitive behavioral therapy was also a f- a form of brainwashing back in the day. And aversion therapy. Um, but within just a few months, he went from around, I think, six to 800K per month to like four million a month. All of his employees were on board. He, he did, he had this huge shift. The problem comes when you're, when you're a coach and you make someone's life change that fast, they have to have an excuse. They can't go back to the office and like, "They're different," right? So, they have to say, "Some- this thing happened to me. I had this thing." So, that's the first thing I work out with every client is like, "You n- you're gonna have to go back and tell them something happened that changed your life, 'cause you have to have a reason that you're going back different." So, watching that transformation is so, so rewarding and incredible. But the confidence

Chase Hughes 21:03 is usually what you have to change first with people.

Steven Bartlett 21:05 How'd you do that?

Chase Hughes 21:07 You change how... what's going on in- inside their head. So, you've gone on stage before, probably 1,000 or 2,000 people. You were on TV for a while. Even after you've been successful, have you ever even heard a tiny voice that said, "Why am I here?" Or like, "Do I deserve to be here?"

Steven Bartlett 21:28 Yeah. I mean, doing this is a prime example of that.

Chase Hughes 21:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:30 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 21:30 Or, uh, "Uh, I'm faking it."

Steven Bartlett 21:32 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 21:32 "People are gonna find out I'm, I'm faking it."

Steven Bartlett 21:35 Well, you feel like that when you're a podcaster 'cause you, you didn't get any official qualifications, and then people started l- listening, and then there's... They think that you know what you're doing or you-

Chase Hughes 21:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:43 So, you f- I think I can temper that as a podcaster.

Chase Hughes 21:46 Yeah. So, a- and they never go away. So, the difference between a person who's confident and a person who doesn't have confidence is that they hear those voices as truth, and I hear them, or somebody with confidence, hears them as fiction. Th- they're both listening to the same thing. So, imagine like, as a quick story, if I, if you and I were going to lunch, and I said, "Steven, I'll, I'm gonna come pick you up." I pull up in front of your house, you jump in the passenger side, we're heading off, and I'm listening to an audiobook about a nuclear bomb going off. But it's... Inside the audiobook, there's a fake news report about a nuclear bomb going off. Let's say it's a pretend BBC broadcast or something that's going off. And it's in the audiobook. We start driving. I'm relaxed, I'm focused on the road, I'm enjoying what I'm doing. Your heart rate's increased, you're fearful, your amygdala is firing off. You're in this horrible state of like, "Oh my God, what hap- what's gonna happen to my family?" We're both hearing the exact same broadcast. We're h- listening to the same speakers at the same time. But I know that I'm hearing fiction, and you are worried that it's truth. I don't mean to use you as, as that example, but it's... That's the easiest way to, to describe it. And then just fundamentally changing how you hear that voice. And nine times m- I think 10 times out of 10, that voice was developed when you were eight or nine. What did that kid do? And this is what I would ask any of the clients. What did that kid do to make friends or keep them, so friends. To feel safe? Now, we're in the safety, like, "H- how did I get to feel safe, and what did I do to earn rewards?" And for some people that might be recognition. For other kids who had a bad start in life, that might be water or food. Might've been a reward for those kids. So, the way that we keep or earn friends, the way that we get rewards as a child, and the way that we feel... What we have to do to feel safe, those develop as little apps in our brain that run in the background of our adult lives all the time. And we typically, as a kid, they're great. They might've kept us safe. They might've kept us alive. They might've held us inside of these social circles, but, "I'm gonna be a dick to people so that they don't get close to me."... or "I'm gonna kiss up to authority figures like mom and dad, so I'll get some recognition and praise." And that becomes an app that we carry into adulthood without knowing it, without our consent, without our awareness. That little kid brings these things into adulthood, and they just modify. So I go from having to kiss up to a narcissistic mother to, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna kiss the boss's ass every single day, and everybody knows me as the office kiss-ass." So they just translate from child to adult behavior. And if I can start understanding that, then I can start getting that person to understand the fundamental way to change their life, and I make them put those phrases out in the open to where it's so... I, I want them to be pissed off. So I will make them get a desktop wallpaper that says, "I don't deserve money. Money is for other people," just, just to make their brain see how stupid it is on a regular basis, and put it on a motivational poster. (sniffs) And the second part of that is, uh, y- anybody who's confident has a generalized expectation of positive outcomes. Not specific, but things are gonna be fine. Things are gonna be fine. So if I can do that, you can fundamentally change someone's life. So the final point of that, which leads into discipline, is I need to get you to form a relationship with your future self, because everything that goes in- on in our life has to do with our mammalian brain, this lower part of our brain here, and it doesn't speak English. There's no affirmation that's gonna penetrate that barrier. There's no, like, "I'm gonna read a quote on a wall or a PowerPoint slide that's gonna fundamentally change behavior." You have to change the animal, the mammalian part of the brain. So the question I ask everybody that I'm training is, "How would I teach it to a dog? How would I, w- how would I show my goals? If I'm setting goals for n- next year, how would I show that to a dog?" 'Cause I have to get it down to a mammal. So the fastest way to do that is, uh, through visual means. So I have all of my clients download this app. I can't remember the name of it. There's probably a hundred, but it makes you look, like, 95.

Steven Bartlett 26:44 Hm. (laughs) Yeah.

Chase Hughes 26:45 And you're just covered in wrinkles. It makes a lot of your hair kinda go away, and I make 'em print it out and put it everywhere just for a couple of weeks. And now, we start developing a mental mammalian relationship with our future self, which changes how I eat, changes how I spend money. It changes maybe what time I go to bed, how much alcohol I drink, and mostly, uh, where I'm getting my dopamine from. If I draw a map of everywhere I'm getting my dopamine from, and more than 50% of it is on alcohol or porn or, you know, all of these things that I don't want, that's... You have to be very, very honest with yourself at that point of, "Where do I need to get dopamine from in, in my life?" And successful people... Every single successful person that I've ever met has a good dopamine map. So they, they get dopamine from

Chase Hughes 27:38 good sources instead of bad ones.

Steven Bartlett 27:40 And is there a relationship between discipline and confidence?

Chase Hughes 27:44 I think so, very much. 'Cause like, if, if you and I were sitting in an airport together... Let's say we're sitting in Atlanta airport, and I just asked you with... And you're not a behavior profiler, as far as I know. But I said, "Steven, look around and find somebody that's disciplined," it would take you five seconds-

Steven Bartlett 28:02 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 28:02 ... 'cause we don't need to, to profile people. That's a natural thing that... You picked up on it on purpose, but we pick up on it unconsciously all the time.

Steven Bartlett 28:10 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 28:11 So having that level of discipline l- elevates our level of confidence automatically because we know that other people are gonna pick up on it, but we also know, "I'm moving up, and I'm probably more in control of myself than the person that I'm talking to or the people that I'm, I'm dealing with regularly." So how we live off-camera is coming through in our confidence. That's the exact thing that we were talking about, that environment, time, appearance. And if I can live off-camera the same way that I wanna be perceived by everybody in my life, my confidence already starts to grow.

Steven Bartlett 28:48 And you said enjoyment, as well, was one of the five.

Chase Hughes 28:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:50 Why is enjoyment important?

Chase Hughes 28:53 I added it on there. It, it took a while, but I walked through everybody I've ever trained, and if you look at everyone who is a natural leader and has that level of authority, they are not just partying in the moment, but just in... Calmly enjoying what is happening now. So maybe you could call it mindfulness, but I think in... Just the trait of enjoyment and being in enjoyment is the most magnetic human trait

Chase Hughes 29:23 that there is.

Steven Bartlett 29:25 What do I need to know about observation, which is the second part of your triangle to success or failure? Observation, being able to read a room. Is it possible to be able to read a room?

Chase Hughes 29:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:38 How would I go about reading a room?

Chase Hughes 29:40 Okay, so if, if you're reading, like, a public area-

Steven Bartlett 29:43 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 29:43 Let's go back to the airport, maybe.

Steven Bartlett 29:45 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 29:46 If I'm in a public area, I really wanna pay attention to the slowest-moving person in the room. I wanna pay attention to who is more confident than the other person, and that's typically going back to speed. And if I'm, if I'm reading other people well, I'm also making a lot of eye contact with them.

Steven Bartlett 30:06 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 30:07 So that's also one of the fastest ways to get a read on another human being, is how often they're blinking and... If a person is blinking fast, it's a sign of s- high stress.

Steven Bartlett 30:19 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 30:19 If they're blinking really slow-It's a sign of focus. So it's not always relaxation. So if I talk to a psychopath in a interrogation room, or in a business negotiation, and they're very focused on prey... So we call that a prey focus, eh, because they're gonna manipulate somebody. Their blink rate will almost be a zero. If I talk to somebody who's being deceptive, their blink rate can go up to, like, a 75, 80, without us even knowing it. So one of the reasons that blink rate is so reliable is that it's unconscious. We don't realize the shifts in blink rate, and we don't manually control it very well. And if all that I would ever need to teach somebody, you don't have to count or know how many times per minute it's going on, is if I'm in a conversation, I'm gonna start the conversation, say, "Is the blink rate normal? Does it look fast? Does it look slow?" So what I'm really looking for in human behavior are changes.

Steven Bartlett 31:16 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 31:17 Changes. So if I'm on stage, you know, if I'm... Let's say I'm doing a keynote, and across the room I'm making eye contact with all these people, and I start seeing an increase in audience blink rate, I know I need to change the subject or change the topic right away.

Steven Bartlett 31:32 So would you be looking at one particular person?

Chase Hughes 31:35 No. W- so-

Steven Bartlett 31:36 Generally.

Chase Hughes 31:37 Yeah. So I would look at all of these eyes and pretend like I'm looking at one human.

Steven Bartlett 31:42 Okay.

Chase Hughes 31:42 Does that make sense?

Steven Bartlett 31:43 You're getting an average of the-

Chase Hughes 31:44 Yeah. So, eh, as I'm looking around, how many blinks do I see? And I'm gonna pretend as if that was one human eye.

Steven Bartlett 31:50 Okay. So when you get a lower blink rate, people are paying more attention.

Chase Hughes 31:55 Yeah. You're doing a great job. And you can... I go to these pitch meetings where these, uh, entrepreneurs will go up and pitch these angel investors and stuff like that, up in Washington, and you can measure who will pitch based on blink rate. You see a blink rate drop, that is the most interested person in the room. We do the same thing with jury selection. It's so reliable and... Y- you read these articles about, like, someone breathing into their chest. It takes a while to get good at that with your peripheral vision, because I've taught it to people, and they would have, spend a conversation with someone staring at their chest. And especially if you're talking to a woman, you know, it's a bad idea. So blink rate is incredibly reliable. So to recap that skill-

Steven Bartlett 32:40 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 32:40 ... I start a conversation. Does it look pretty normal? Is it pretty fast, or kind of slow? Then I'm gonna look for changes, and that's all I'm looking for in a room of people, is what's changing.

Steven Bartlett 32:52 So 70 is deceptive, and zero is psychopath.

Chase Hughes 32:58 70 is stress. Not always deception.

Steven Bartlett 33:00 Seventy is stress. Okay. And zero is psychopath, basically.

Chase Hughes 33:03 Zero might be psychopath.

Steven Bartlett 33:04 (laughs) Okay.

Chase Hughes 33:05 E- context is the second letter, C.

Steven Bartlett 33:07 Right.

Chase Hughes 33:07 There's five Cs that we talk about in behavior profiling. So change, then context.

Steven Bartlett 33:13 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 33:13 So now, eh, like, somebody just crossed their arms, and you read the internet, it says it's being defensive, withholding, closed off.

Steven Bartlett 33:20 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 33:20 See all that stuff? Well, what if it's freezing cold?

Steven Bartlett 33:22 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 33:23 So now we have context.

Steven Bartlett 33:24 So interesting. That actually happened in my last conversation. I, um, I try not to close off my body-

Chase Hughes 33:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:28 ... when I'm doing this, 'cause somet- sometimes my natural reaction is to go- go like this. And then sometimes, especially in here when it gets later and we didn't have the fan and the heater, I would go like this.

Chase Hughes 33:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:39 And what I'm d- if, like, the... I was thinking, "But this is rude. It gets rude to the guest." But I looked at my arms, and I had these, like, massive goosebumps, and I was like, "That's the context."

Chase Hughes 33:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:47 The context is-

Chase Hughes 33:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:47 ... I'm fucking freezing.

Chase Hughes 33:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:49 But to the guest it would look like I'm going like this.

Chase Hughes 33:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:52 You know? So this is why body language is so delicate, I think.

Chase Hughes 33:57 It is delicate.

Steven Bartlett 33:59 Um-

Chase Hughes 33:59 And it's so hard to, for people to do peer-reviewed research on it, because there's a million variables. It's like saying, "Well, why should Roger Federer win a tennis match when he doesn't have any peer-reviewed studies to back up what he's doing?"

Steven Bartlett 34:15 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 34:15 It's the same thing with body language. Because, like, they're doing interrogation research, so they're saying that a college kid who gets a lunch voucher and walks in and pretends to lie about a duck is exactly the same as someone who's been captured in combat, sleep deprived for a few days, has a black hood over their head, and they're drug into an interrogation room. And they're saying those behaviors are identical. Then there's the peer-reviewed research on lying and not lying.

Steven Bartlett 34:45 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 34:45 It's so... You cannot replicate human behavior that well. So, and people treat it like it's a pharmaceutical. Like, I can put a Tylenol on somebody, and I can measure all these responses. And it doesn't really go into a spreadsheet like that. And there's a lot of great research out there, but I'd say it's just so incredibly hard to replicate everything and, and with perfection like that.

Steven Bartlett 35:07 So what was the first C?

Chase Hughes 35:09 First C is change. I wanna look for a change.

Steven Bartlett 35:11 Change. And then you want to look at context. Is there a third C?

Chase Hughes 35:14 That would be clusters.

Steven Bartlett 35:15 Clusters.

Chase Hughes 35:16 So then you read articles that say someone looks a certain way or does a certain thing that might be deceptive. Like, the most common one I hear is someone touches their nose, so someone touching their nose might be being deceptive. If you're just seeing one thing, I would say that never, almost never means anything. You want to look for a cluster of behavior. So they started getting nervous, which is a change. They're... It's because I'm asking about where they were on Wednesday night. There's the context. And while they were getting nervous, they also started protecting their genitals with their hands and licking their lips, which is a hygienic gesture that we do. So now I have a change within the context that's appropriate, and there's a cluster of behavior.

Steven Bartlett 35:59 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 36:00 After that, I screen through culture. Is there some part of this person's culture or background, uh, that makes them do that? Like, I was with a young person. We were watching a Pakistani person get int- interrogated. And you know how, y- you commonly see that kind of head shake-

Steven Bartlett 36:17 Oh, yeah.

Chase Hughes 36:18 ... uh, in that region of the world? They said, "Oh, he's shaking his head while he's saying yes." I'm like, now we get down to that C. This is culture.... which rules out, uh, that behavior, or gets rid of it. And finally, the most- the least important thing on that list is the checklist. And by checklist, I mean, there is a list of known behaviors that are likely to be deception. When- if you're in body language, you deal in likelihood. That's all we deal in. Some people say they're 100% sure on stuff, and I'm skeptical. But we deal in likelihood. So, we should always process in that. So, someone licking their lips or moving a certain way, if it's in- on a checklist does not mean that it's deceptive.

Steven Bartlett 37:02 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 37:03 'Cause what if they do it all the time? Then we don't have a change. Does that make sense?

Steven Bartlett 37:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about things I used to do when I was younger, and there was just a period of my life where, for some bizarre reason, I used to go like this. I used to do it all the time.

Chase Hughes 37:16 Like a tic?

Steven Bartlett 37:16 It was almost like a tic, yeah. Do you know what's really weird? I think this sounds like a really crazy thing to say, but (laughs) one of my best friends had, like, curtains, like, had the haircut, curtains.

Chase Hughes 37:29 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 37:30 And he used to flick it, and I almost, like, vicariously picked up the, like, flicking from him. I'd go like that all the time. But I was just thinking, if someone saw me doing that, they would perceive that as some- some form of behavior, whereas it was just this weird thing that lasted for, like, two years when I was younger, and then went away.

Chase Hughes 37:47 Yeah, but did you do it all the time?

Steven Bartlett 37:49 I just did it- I f- well, I don't know. I felt like I just did it randomly.

Chase Hughes 37:52 But that- that wouldn't be a change.

Steven Bartlett 37:54 Okay, yeah.

Chase Hughes 37:55 If I- if I was meeting you.

Steven Bartlett 37:56 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 37:57 And you were on Dragon's Den for a while.

Steven Bartlett 38:00 Still am, yeah.

Chase Hughes 38:01 And people pitch you-

Steven Bartlett 38:03 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 38:03 ... all kinds of ideas. That- just having somebody on the show, or just having those skills with you, you could see through a lot of those people and whether or not they're being honest about what they're pitching, they're confident about what they're pitching. And you could look at a show like Shark Tank, and I can look at- I can watch any episode of Shark Tank and look who's blinking the least.

Steven Bartlett 38:27 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 38:27 They're- they're gonna be the first to make an offer, 99% of the time.

Steven Bartlett 38:31 Ah.

Chase Hughes 38:31 'Cause they're the most focused on what's going on. They're- they're i- personally invested. So, that's fascinating, is that just- you could just look at one or two things and predict stress or focus. And just being able to do that, if you just took that one thing away from this, that would be a superpower.

Steven Bartlett 38:52 'Cause I sit here with guests, right? And they talk about their life stories and stuff, and I often see some patterns of behavior.

Chase Hughes 38:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:58 Specifically, like, closing up when you ask someone something about their childhood or a specific sensitive subject in their life.

Chase Hughes 39:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:05 You tend to see, like, self- or, uh, I call it, like, self-soothing behavior to some degree. So, it's difficult. And it's funny, 'cause we- we're all, like, amateur body language experts now.

Chase Hughes 39:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:15 'Cause there's been a lot of stuff online saying, "Spot this," "Did they touch their nose?" Et cetera. So, it can also be dangerous.

Chase Hughes 39:20 It can. And it can give us these, like, "Oh, I saw this one thing, I'm never doing business with that guy."

Steven Bartlett 39:25 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 39:25 And like, "He scratched his nose three times while he was talking about that." Well, he's- look in his briefcase. He's got allergy medication in there. He's scratching his nose. The season just changed. It's springtime. His nose is red when he came in, so he's been scratching it for 30 minutes before he walked in the door. So now, we- we start to realize, I'm not seeing a change. I'm seeing something

Chase Hughes 39:46 that was repetitive.

Steven Bartlett 39:48 And communication is the third one in the triangle to success or failure. Communication. So, what I've got so far is talking slow is higher authority.

Chase Hughes 39:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:57 Is there anything else that, if I want to be a master communicator, I should be thinking about?

Chase Hughes 40:01 Absolutely. You know, when it comes to communication, A, being a good storyteller is great. And there's a million podcasts out there that can teach somebody that. But it comes down to whether or not you can speak to the person that you are in front of-

Steven Bartlett 40:19 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 40:19 ... and understanding what kind of person that is. And there's a few ways that I identify. I s- I segregate people into six groups, and that's through, what do they need from other people? So, what kind of things do I need socially? And these are significance-

Steven Bartlett 40:39 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 40:40 ... acceptance-

Steven Bartlett 40:42 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 40:42 ... approval, intelligence, pity, and strength or- slash power. And in every conversation, if you ask somebody about themselves, they're going to come across and reveal one of those things to you. So, if I know that you are a significance-driven person-

Steven Bartlett 41:05 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 41:06 ... and I'm selling you on how smart of an idea this is and how in- intelligent you are for making this choice, I'm communicating in the way opposite in what you need to hear. So, the moment that I hear you talk about yourself, your accomplishments, what you like in life, what happened for you this week, what's a great memory that you have, every conversation you're gonna hear this stuff starting to get revealed. So, you hear somebody within... and- and these are conversations, or things that you could hear in a conversation pretty quickly. You start talking to somebody and they said, "Yeah, I'm actually the CEO at that company. I've got 490 people that work for me, and I'm probably gonna be making an exit sometime next year." So, you hear that. There's significance, right?

Steven Bartlett 41:50 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 41:51 Uh, then you- then you listen for approval. Is- and this is when you hear people say, "Well, I've got to go up on stage tomorrow, but I suck at public speaking, and I'm gonna- I'm gonna really bomb at it. I'm just really nervous." Trying to get you to say, "No, no, you don't suck. You're great."

Steven Bartlett 42:06 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 42:06 "You did great last time. You're gonna rock this. You got this." Then you have the acceptance people. They'll always use the terms like we, us, our, and just team. So, acceptance people are all about, like, "I am a member of some kind of group," and that'll come across in their communication. So, you ask a significance person about a vacation, they say, "Yeah, I went down to Miami. It was fantastic. I had a great time, and I just got back last night." You ask an acceptance person, they'll say, "We went down there. All of us went to this thing, and we did this." So, you hear a lot of this language that talks about groups and membership.... you get into the intelligence side, how often do you hear people go, "Yeah, I actually got my MBA from this person. Oh, I did my master's thesis on that"? Do you hear this intelligence stuff come out of people?

Steven Bartlett 42:53 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 42:53 And the pity is you can identify a pity person pretty well. And those are the hardest people to communicate to. And the pity person always... Like, if, I wanna give you the ideal thing to say to each one of these people. The pity person wants to hear, "I can't believe all the stuff that you've been through and you've got to this point, because I don't think many people would have." Pity wants recognition of suffering.

Steven Bartlett 43:21 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 43:21 And finally, we have the strength and power person. And this isn't always Biff from Back to the Future. So it's, can be somebody who's a leader in a company they want, but they want control. So significance is, do I make a difference? Strength and power is, do I have control over other people? These are the, everybody from, like, the leader who kind of forces his way into the top to the guy with the ridiculous jacked-up pickup truck that has, like, the plastic testicles hanging off of the back of it.

Steven Bartlett 43:52 And once you understand what categorization someone fits into, how would you show up in a way that's effective in communicating with them? Say, for example, if I'm talking to a significance person.

Chase Hughes 44:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:04 Do I just, a- a- and I'm trying to close a deal with them or something, do I pander to their significance? Is that...

Chase Hughes 44:11 Yeah. So there's a few other types that we teach intelligence people to identify. There's d- the six ways we make decisions and then six ways that we have values, which is our end goal that we want. But I wanna speak in a way that says, "This decision is going to increase your level of significance." And I wanna compliment them on their level of significance right before I ask them for something. So I could say, "You know, Steven, uh, this is a great podcast. You've got millions of subscribers and it's obvious you make a difference in so many people's lives. And you are a significance person, so that would be effective, uh, for you, 'cause I know that you wanna make the biggest difference that you can."

Steven Bartlett 44:51 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 44:51 And I wanna speak in a way that, A, speaks to their needs and lets them know that I am a source for that.

Steven Bartlett 44:58 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 44:59 But, B, that making this decision, whatever the, whatever we're talking about, selling a car, whatever, is gonna increase your ability to get that same need from other people. So I think if we did this together, I think the number one thing that's gonna happen right away is you're gonna be able to impact twice as many people, and you're gonna leave a much deeper footprint on the world. So I'm giving you, "We're gonna double your subscribers or your listeners, but not just that, you're gonna make a bigger impact, a legacy on the world." So every time I'm thinking about needs, always think in terms of neurotransmitters. If I can compliment someone on their need, that's what we need from other people. So I'm giving them, like, 500 million neurotransmitters being released when they hear this. So it's not just that we are kind of suffering and insecure and all these things that we talked about a minute ago. We're also drug addicts. Everybody. We just need to identify the drug that that person's addicted to.

Steven Bartlett 46:02 Mm-hmm. I was thinking about the pen. I was like, I was gonna ask you to...

Steven Bartlett 46:07 If I'm a, if I'm an intel- intelligence person and you had to sell me the pen-

Chase Hughes 46:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:14 ... how would you go about that?

Chase Hughes 46:16 You know, I think there's a lotta people in the world out there, and I think most people just do what other people do. And I'm sure you would agree, there's so many idiots out there that just stick with the basic thing. "I'm gonna do this basic thing." And they don't really go outside the box very often. And every once in a while there's, you meet somebody who knows higher quality things, you k- and you meet somebody who is able to see things at a level different than other people. And I would talk about that intelligence while subconsciously ... I'm associating all of that with this. This is different. It's unique. It's a pencil. Um, but it's, it's not like other pencils. It's not the basic run-of-the-mill thing. So I wanna present that in a way, and I'm gonna start with a negative comment, and this is one of the most effective persuasion strategies, is to I'm gonna negatively associate something I don't want you to have. So let's say, uh, we're starting our podcast, and I'm, I'm afraid Steven's not gonna connect with me.

Steven Bartlett 47:16 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 47:17 And I know that you're significance driven. Uh, as we started out, uh, imagine if I said something at the very beginning of this podcast and I said, "Steven, thanks for having me, man." And there's so many people out there, and when, anytime I say something negative in a conversation, I never want to gesture in between you and me. I always wanna gesture away. So this is, we're talking about other people.

Steven Bartlett 47:37 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 47:38 You know, there's so many people out there who just don't really give back to the world and they don't really have an interest in helping other people. And it's like every time you meet one of those people, you sit down with them, it's like all of them have the same thing in common. They can't just stop and connect when they sit down with somebody. So I'm demonizing a trait, using your needs-

Steven Bartlett 48:04 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 48:05 ... that I don't want you to have.

Steven Bartlett 48:07 Ah, okay.

Chase Hughes 48:07 Like, the inability to connect.

Steven Bartlett 48:09 Ah, okay. Interesting. And you're consciously pointing off to gesture to, it's others not...

Chase Hughes 48:15 Right. Until I said the word connect.

Steven Bartlett 48:17 Right.

Chase Hughes 48:17 And then I gestured between you and me back, back and forth between both of us.

Steven Bartlett 48:21 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 48:22 And that word stop is a very powerful word in the English language. So when I said it's like all of them have this same quality to them, they can't just stop and fully connect with somebody else. And that's a very subtle thing, but I've used your neurotransmitters, I've used your needs, and I've, I've got you to agree. You nodded your head if-

Steven Bartlett 48:42 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 48:43 ... agree that those people don't really connect well with other people.

Steven Bartlett 48:46 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 48:47 So that's how powerful that stuff can be. And you can use the same thing in the, in reverse. And I could, I could say a positive thing. I could say, "You know, Steven, uh, what's fascinating to me is I've gone around the world, I've met several entrepreneurs, I've met people who are on TV." And it's like you think that they are just dismissive offhand before you meet 'em. And it's incredible when you meet these people. It's like all of 'em have this ability to just tune everything out and just completely connect with somebody.

Steven Bartlett 49:18 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 49:20 And that would have the same effect.

Steven Bartlett 49:22 And what, what's going on there? People ... We wanna be that person because it's positive? We wanna live up to that expectation set?

Chase Hughes 49:31 Right. So what I've done is I've got you to say, um, as Chris Voss would put it, "That's right."

Steven Bartlett 49:39 Okay.

Chase Hughes 49:40 But I've got you to say that about who you are as a person.

Steven Bartlett 49:43 Ah, okay.

Chase Hughes 49:44 So now I'm not changing your ideas. I'm changing your identity.

Steven Bartlett 49:48 Changing my identity? Or ...

Chase Hughes 49:50 Yeah. Because you've made an agreement about who you are. You've nodded your head.

Steven Bartlett 49:53 Nodded my head. Okay.

Chase Hughes 49:54 And if I wanted to take that further, I would, I would make an admission first and I'd say, "You know what? I had social anxiety growing up and I'm curious, what is it that ... Have you always been able to just connect with everybody you talked to or is this something that you had to work on?"

Steven Bartlett 50:12 Oh, is that a question? (laughs)

Chase Hughes 50:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:13 Okay. But I know it's not a question. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 50:15 Uh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a question. Yeah, it's like a question.

Chase Hughes 50:17 But the moment, the moment that you ask the, that you start to answer that question-

Steven Bartlett 50:21 You've stepped into that. Yeah.

Chase Hughes 50:21 ... you've made an agreement about who you are as a person. So if I wanted somebody to be less closed off, I might say, "You know, I've spent my whole life just worried about what other people think and it, it took ... I was 25 before I got to a point where I was able to open up. Have you always been this open with people or did you have to work on that?"

Steven Bartlett 50:41 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 50:41 So just any answer. And no one's gonna give you an answer of like, "Actually, I'm just closed off. I'm very closed-minded." And that's maybe a 0.1% of people. So small agreements. And none of these are, uh, designed for people to take word for word. I guess they can. But it's about the idea of getting someone to comment on their own identity, who they are as a person.

Steven Bartlett 51:04 Is there anything else as it relates to communication that's especially import- important? It's funny

Steven Bartlett 51:09 that so many people are interested in the communication part more so than the listening part.

Chase Hughes 51:16 They want the flight checklist.

Steven Bartlett 51:17 Yeah. It was, I think it was Julian Treasure who did the TED Talk on how to be a great speaker.

Chase Hughes 51:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:22 He told me he also did a TED Talk on how to be a great listener, and no one l- no one listened. (laughs) He said everyone wanted to ... His one on speaking has got, like, 35 million views. But the one on listening, just no one's interested in that. But I'm, I'm guessing listening plays a pretty critical role to being a great speaker.

Chase Hughes 51:38 Yeah. And listening means I can identify who you are and what ... the needs that are driving you and the social needs and the, the way that you make decisions. And-

Steven Bartlett 51:47 Is that part of the observation part?

Chase Hughes 51:49 Yes, absolutely. Just listening to that means that now I have the right words to use for the communication and the right, the right understanding of what motivates you as a person. So if I'm a therapist, that makes me a better therapist. If I'm a hostage negotiator, that makes me a better hostage negotiator. And if I'm a suicide hotline operator, that makes me way better at my job 'cause I'm understanding exactly who I'm talking to. And my goal is to talk someone into doing something

Chase Hughes 52:15 that they normally would not do.

Steven Bartlett 52:17 You talk about this elicitation.

Chase Hughes 52:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:20 What is elicitation? It's a CIA technique, right?

Chase Hughes 52:22 It is. It was originally came up with by this guy named John Nolan. And his book is no longer for sale. It's ... You have to get it on eBay. Like, it's hard to find. But the book is called Confidential.

Steven Bartlett 52:34 Why isn't it no, longer for sale?

Chase Hughes 52:36 I think that he just kinda pulled it off the shelf. I'm not sure.

Steven Bartlett 52:39 Okay.

Chase Hughes 52:40 So elicitation is about using statements instead of questions. And I'll give you a, uh, an example. Let's say you and I walk into Whole Foods, which is ... We're in New York, so it's probably a block away somewhere.

Steven Bartlett 52:53 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 52:54 We walk in there and there's, uh, let's say there's a young lady stocking produce.

Steven Bartlett 53:00 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 53:01 And you get in there and I say, "All right, Steven, your goal is to go figure out how much she makes in 60 seconds and you're not allowed to ask any questions or be awkward." And that's tough, right? It's, it sounds really tough. So if, if you went over to her and, and this is a, a generalization just to get you to understand what elicitation is, and said, "Hey, I'm trying to find the baby carrots," and she walks you over there, but while you're walking you say, "I just read this article online that says all Whole Foods employees just got bumped up to $26 an hour. That's fantastic." And she turns around and goes, "What? No, I, I make 17." So now she doesn't feel like she's been pressed or questioned about how much she makes. She's correcting you.

Steven Bartlett 53:53 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 53:54 Or if you ... Let's say you got into an Uber tonight and you said, "I just read this article that Uber drivers were one of the top most highly satisfied employees in the country," you're gonna get a correction. And you're gonna be like, "What? (laughs) Where did you read that?" So triggering a need to correct the record is one of the easiest ways to use elicitation, but it's only one. Another one is just making a statement afterwards and saying, "I bet you had some interesting experiences doing that," or, "I can imagine that was challenging." Statements are always gonna be better than asking pointed questions because a person feels like they're volunteering information. The third layer of that is disbelief. So let's say I wanted to ask if you just got back from vacation and I didn't want to use any questions. We ... Let's say we meet up for dinner or something, and I said, "Steven, you look like you just got back from a vacation."That's a statement. And you're like, "No, actually I've been doing this, this, this, and this." So now you've, you've given me more than if I just asked if you were on vacation.

Steven Bartlett 55:05 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 55:06 And I said, "Wow, that had to be interesting. I c- I can't imagine. That, there's gotta be a lot of stuff going on there." And you start talking more and more and more. And then, like, "That sounds great. There was no challenges to that entire trip. I love when everything is 100% flawless." And you're like, "No, actually," and then you start going into that, and I'm like, "No way." The, now we have disbelief that comes in, and I haven't asked a single question yet. So, that's one thing that I challenge everybody that I train to get really good at, is that elicitation piece. So how many layers can I get into a person or a conversation just using these statements? And that's why I wrote a ... There's a whole chapter about it in, in this book here. But that elicitation is p- powerful because we're not being asked questions, so our brain doesn't set off little security alarms, and this is how Soviet spies would get information from a 19-year-old US Navy sailor, uh, in the early days of the Cold War. They'd s- a ship would pull into Thailand, or a submarine would pull into Thailand or Singapore, and a Russian would go up and these sailors would be drinking at the bar. Russian would sit there, he's got a, an aloha shirt on or something, and strike up a conversation. They say, "I know that the, the German submarines could outrun you because their propellers are 22, and all of your submarine propellers are 18 feet in diameter." And the sailor, slightly drunk, turns around and says, "No, they're not," and starts, s- giving up all this information just to correct the record. And that's all they did back then was just correcting the record. I'm triggering this need to offer some kind of correction to information that's inaccurate. And even with business intelligence, let's say that a company's moving and they have to get business intelligence. Somebody at that company will get approached at a bar, and somebody'll say, "Yeah, I heard you guys are moving between March and April," and they'll get corrected and they'll say, "No, it's actually February, but we're not really supposed to talk about it." It's like, there's no way you're gonna move in February. It's too cold, and the interest rates are up too high. There's no possible way that the CEO would ever do that. It's like, "Yeah," and then you're gonna, you're gonna get more information out because of the disbelief. So that was correcting the record. A second technique called bracketing, where I'm giving you a series, like between March and May, or between 39 and 59, and the third is the disbelief that starts getting this information out of people. So if you wanna think about, like, how do I start a conversation or continue one using elicitation, think of the words so, and then do a recap. "So you've been doing this for three years," or, "So, this is not the best job, but it's getting things done for you." Or, "I bet." So, "I bet that was interesting. I bet there were still some challenges there," or, "I bet you overcame a whole lot to get to this point." So or I bet is the best way to do that.

Steven Bartlett 58:04 And when I ... Okay, so if I say, "I bet you hate that coffee,"-

Chase Hughes 58:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:08 ... that, that's a statement, but you're gonna endeavor to correct the record either way.

Chase Hughes 58:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:14 And if you do hate the coffee you'll say, "Yeah." Y- like, even you saying, "Yes, I do kinda hate it," is offering up information.

Chase Hughes 58:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:24 Okay. Interesting.

Chase Hughes 58:25 And you could even go on with that. I mean, like, "I bet you hate that coffee," and somebody says, "Yeah, well, I do kinda hate it." "I can imagine you're the kinda person who likes coffee a very specific way." "Well, yeah, here's how I like it a lot." You'd say, "That's extremely interesting. No creamer, no sugar." And I'm just recapping.

Steven Bartlett 58:46 So, why is that better than me just going, "How do you prefer your coffee?"

Chase Hughes 58:52 Well, if we're just talking about coffee, it's not sensitive information.

Steven Bartlett 58:54 Right, so it's-

Chase Hughes 58:55 So I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that that was better.

Steven Bartlett 58:56 It's for sensitive information.

Chase Hughes 58:58 Yeah, so the-

Steven Bartlett 58:58 When you're trying to not get their guard up.

Chase Hughes 59:00 Yeah. So the rule of thumb is the more sensitive the im- the information is that you need, the less questions you need to be asking.

Steven Bartlett 59:06 And is that wh- uh, I mean, that s- does correlate to kind of, like, how I've, uh ... the information that the spies I've interviewed have given me. Like Andrew Bustamante and, uh, Mike Baker. They've both said that much of the game was, like, hearing someone out and just letting them talk and talk and talk and talk-

Chase Hughes 59:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:23 ... but not being too pushy.

Chase Hughes 59:24 Yeah. And that's, that's the best way to not

Chase Hughes 59:27 be pushy, is to use the elicitation stuff.

Steven Bartlett 59:30 Perception, context, permission, the PCP model, is a way of understanding how to get someone to do something-

Chase Hughes 59:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:37 ... from joining a cult to buying an item.

Chase Hughes 59:39 Yeah. So, the PCP model looks like it's three steps, but it's, uh ... I want you to view it as kind of dominoes. So one step starts the progress of coming down on the other, and once that comes down, the next domino starts going down.

Steven Bartlett 59:54 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 59:56 So if I change your perception about something, then I change the context that you're viewing that in, which changes the way that you feel permission to do it. So I'll give you an example. Would you want a weird example or a boring one? We'll, we'll go with ... Let's go with weird.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:12 Okay.

Chase Hughes 1:00:13 So let's go with, uh, an attorney in Washington state was charged with assault of a woman using hypnosis, and he would have her get naked in his office, which is something she would not normally do, and the attorney was studying this hypnosis and stuff like that. He wasn't e- I don't ... As, as far as I know, he was not even good. But he would hypnotize her and then tell her, "At the end of the day, you come home from work," and this is just like that time, "I want you to picture yourself, it's the end of the day, you're coming home from work, you drop your keys in the bowl, you make your way to the bathroom, you turn on a hot shower, and now you're here getting ready to get into that shower."So, he's changed her perception of where she is. He changed the context of, neither o- one of you or me right now would, like, get naked on a podcast, but both of us are going to later tonight when we go to shower, so, but because that's a different context. So, he modified the context, which gave her permission to remove clothing, or do something that we otherwise wouldn't do in a social setting. One of the ways that I studied this, and it was fascinating, is cult recruiters. And I spent a, a long time, well six weeks, working with these cult recruiters, and I was back and forth between cult recruiters and door-to-door salespeople. And these are hard-hitting people, man. They, it's a hard job, door-to-door sales. But they talk people into doing things they probably wouldn't otherwise have done.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:58 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:01:59 Uh, installing a $95,000 solar system on their roof, or buying a vacuum cleaner, or joining a cult, that's probably harmful. But all of them started off the conversation by changing the perception of what's going on. So, instead of me saying, "Hey, let me talk to you about this thing," that's from a, like a needy perspective, they come out with a survey, and they say it's an anonymous survey, which automatically makes the people more open.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:31 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:02:32 So, it's an anonymous survey. I've changed permission. So now, the context has shifted slightly. And if I could change your perception again, would you rather be in a group of people who feel like family or people who are related to you? So, I start asking all these little questions about, "How would you rather live your life?" In a way that's, like, just kind of nudging you down into this cult mindset of, like, "Do you wanna be around people that enjoy your company?" Like those kinda questions. So, more perception changes. Now the context shifts to where I've just made 25 agreements about who I am as a human being, so now my, my context is way off, which shifts my permission. It's like, I have permission to do this because that's the kinda person I've just agreed to be, and that's who I've said that I am. I have to do this. Because that's cognitive dissonance, like crazy. And one thing I teach about any persuasion, whether you're doing a PSYOP on an entire country or you're just manipulating one person, or doing therapy on one person, your main weapon as a person who is persuasive or influential is cognitive dissonance.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:43 Which is?

Chase Hughes 1:03:44 I'm getting you to be uncomfortable because I'm get, the way that I've got you to see the world doesn't match up with what you're doing. So, the fast, easiest thing for you to change is what you're doing, instead of changing your mind about something or calling yourself dumb. I just get you to do something different. And that's weaponized cognitive dissonance. We're seeing a lot of that with the extreme left, extreme right politics, on both of, both of those extremes. Once I get a person to make even one or two or three statements about their identity, I have drastically altered how they're gonna behave in the future. Uh, Robert Cialdini, who wrote Influence and Pre-suasion, a wonderful human being, wrote about this, where a few weeks before they go ask somebody to put a giant ugly sign in their yard that says, "Drive safe." Huge ugly sign. Two weeks before that, they go back door-to-door and say, "Do you support safe driving? Yes or no?" Who's gonna say no? So, like 91% said, "Yeah, yeah, I support safe driving." They said, "Good. Will you put this tiny sticker in your front window, tiny little sticker, and just to let us know that you're supporting safe driving? That's all we, all we ask you to do." Two weeks later, they come back to the neighborhood, like 89% of people are sticking these signs in their yard. The other neighborhood they did the test on didn't have this little survey, "Do you support safe driving first?" And it was like 6% stuck the sign in their yard. So, making one, uh, agreement about who I am and then taking action on it. So, if I can get you to take action on something, not in just, between you and me. Now I got you to put a sticker on your window. I got you to do something that alters the way other people see you. So, if I can get you to make something that I've got you to believe public, I can get you to make a Twitter post, I can get you to make a Facebook post. Now I've captured identity. So, most persuasion and influence training in the world is about capturing ideas. Identity is where you truly get to change behavior, 'cause I'm getting you to agree that you are a certain type of person before I want you to do anything.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:00 Interesting. It explains a lot about politics, in fact. You know, and what we s- what we see go on in the election cycles, and also just how a, a political party, a political group can slowly drift together to a position that objectively you go, "Bloody hell, that's crazy."

Chase Hughes 1:06:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:21 You know, because they kinda slowly, they say, "I'm this party. I signed up to this, this particular political party." And then slowly, just with like creep of beliefs, you end up over 10 years all of you believing and thinking something is okay.

Chase Hughes 1:06:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:36 It's interesting.

Chase Hughes 1:06:37 And just because you made an agreement.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:39 I guess in part that explains some of the wars as well. Like, uh, there's an element here which can be, can explain things like Nazi Germany-

Chase Hughes 1:06:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:47 ... and how a, a civilization can go from being relatively normal to doing really horrific, barbaric things to people.

Chase Hughes 1:06:56 Yeah, and if you, just going back to the Milgram experiment, right away I got you to say, "Do you fully volunteer to participate in this? Would, do you accept the role of teacher? Would you sit down in this chair? Would you shock them with this low voltage?"

Steven Bartlett 1:07:10 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:07:11 I've got you to agree that I'm the kind of person that's willing to shock someone for an experiment within the first two minutes.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:18 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:07:19 And they don't talk about that. They, they kind of tend to say the whole experiment's about authority. But I don't think it's all authority. I think a lot of it is novelty, and they don't talk about that ever in the... these recaps of the study. But if you volunteer for that experiment, you're driving on a campus you've probably not been on, going into a building you've never been to, meeting a guy in a lab coat that you've never met, and another guy you've never met, in a room that you've never met, sat in front of a machine you've never seen, reading a quiz that you've never read in your entire life. All of these things, brand new. The number one thing that generates focus in the mammalian brain, and this is dog, you name it, is novelty. So our ancestors, they're walking past a bush every day of their life. And one day, sun's about to set, and a stick snaps behind that bush. That's novelty. That's an unexpected pie- piece of information.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:15 New information, or is it-

Chase Hughes 1:08:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:17 ... unexpected?

Chase Hughes 1:08:18 Yeah. I-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:18 What's your definition of novelty here?

Chase Hughes 1:08:20 Novelty is my brain is expecting certain things to happen. I'm gonna walk past this bush, just like I've done before. I have kind of a script for running things. And something happens that breaks that script of what I am predicting about the world. Does that make sense?

Steven Bartlett 1:08:35 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:08:36 Any kind of novelty generates focus. So the four things that we can manipulate inside of a human brain, uh, spells out the word fate. So the four ways to manipulate or influence a mammal, and this is human, dog, you name it, is through focus, authority, tribe, and emotion. Those are the four things that a dog can feel. If you're looking at a dog training video you're watching... Let's say you're binge watching three seasons of Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan, you're seeing him redirect focus, establish authority, show contact with the tribe, and praise the dog when the dog's doing well. Focus, authority, tribe, and emotion.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:25 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:09:25 That's how we train animals. It's also how an infomercial gets you to buy something. They grab your focus. They show you, here's a, a million people who've already bought it so far, and they all have these five-star reviews. Everybody in your neighborhood's doing it. All these people across the United States are doing it. They're getting success. And all of their friends love them because of that success. Now we get emotion. And they show it visually. They don't just say it. They're showing those visual images to show the mammal brain the focus, authority, tribe, and emotion that spells fate.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:58 I was thinking about a lot of, like, um, fizzy drink ads in the sun- in the sunshine in the summer. And you see, you know, like the... You hear the sound, like, khh, as they're, like, breaking open.

Chase Hughes 1:10:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:09 There's people there, I guess that's the tribe, having a great time. And I was just struggling with the authority part in that context. If those ads you see for, like, a fizzy drink brand.

Chase Hughes 1:10:19 I think the authority would be the on, on-screen presence or brand recognition.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:23 Okay. Or it could be a celebrity or something.

Chase Hughes 1:10:26 Yeah. And this is coming from a tribal leader. 'Cause if our ancestors didn't listen to a tribal leader,

Chase Hughes 1:10:33 you don't live very long.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:35 In your work, you talk about how to win an argument. And when I say win an argument, I don't really mean an argument. I mean more like, you know, me and my girlfriend are having a conversation-

Chase Hughes 1:10:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:43 ... and I wanna get to a good resolution. What are the things I should definitely not do?

Chase Hughes 1:10:50 Calling out little points. That any kind of incorrect information, we wait until the end. We save it.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:58 Okay.

Chase Hughes 1:10:59 So if I hear... If I'm in an argument with someone and they're calling me out for doing something I clearly didn't do, I'll wait. I want to wait.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:06 Why?

Chase Hughes 1:11:06 Because they get diffused. Now, we want them to get that out first. But right away, as soon as possible, in any argument like this, I want to establish, like, do we have a similar common ground? Do we have... What common ground do we share, and do we want a similar outcome? And I might even ask that question and be like, "Really quick, do we both want the same thing from, from this discussion?" I would never call it an argument. So one... The moment that we redirect on, uh, this is the outcome I want instead of I need to win an argument... Because when we're in a fight, we tend to think, "I intellectually need to conquer this conversation, and I need to be right. And if I can be right, that means I was right."

Steven Bartlett 1:11:52 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:11:53 Not... Winning an argument doesn't mean you were right before or right after. But it's like, what is the ideal outcome for both of us? And I would stop... In a business negotiation or whatever, what's ideal for both of us? We both want this same thing, and the ideal outcome for you is this. The ideal outcome for me is this. And I think there's m- some middle ground here.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:12 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:12:13 And it would be the same thing in a relationship. If anything started spinning out of control, the first thing I'm gonna think is... I'm gonna hear what's not being said. So if my wife was saying, "You don't even need to call me. You don't call me anyway when you're on these business trips. I never get phone calls," do you think she is worried that her phone isn't ringing or she's worried that she's not being appreciated and, and not feeling loved? So men, especially, will, will tend to say, "Well, let's, let's open these facts really quick. Pull your phone out. I'm gonna show you some missed calls right now."

Steven Bartlett 1:12:51 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:12:52 It's not about the calls. I need to hear what's underneath the statements that someone is saying. You need to hear between the lines, just like a behavior profiler. So what is the... What's the emotion that's starting here? Is it anger? Is it loneliness? Is it feeling unappreciated? I need to understand what the emotion is behind what someone's saying and address that, and never address exactly what people are saying to try to win an argument.I just posted a video on YouTube, uh, three days ago of ... It, it was called The Narcissist Off Switch, and it was how to disarm any narcissist. And there were these very specific methods, but the, the biggest method of all was to always think about what they're, are using to get out of you. So if I'm in an argument, is someone using fear, obligation, or guilt? And that acronym spells FOG. So am I gonna get in trouble, or can I recognize when somebody is using fear, obligation and guilt? And if someone is doing any of those things, I want to call it out in a non-confrontational way. So let's say, um, you give me some line about like, "If you don't do this, I'm gonna have to work 19 hours next week." So it's never about the hours, and it's, now it's guilt, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:14:14 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:14:15 I could say, "Steven, uh, maybe you didn't mean to, but it sounded like you wanted me to feel guilty about me working next week. And I know that you're a good person. I don't think you meant it that way." So I will absolutely call out any fear, obligation, or guilt, always. But I'll call it out in a way that says, "Maybe you didn't mean this, but it sounded like this is what you were saying right here." And I always wanna use that word where it's non-confrontational, and I wanna give them an out. So in interrogation training, we always call this the golden bridge. In The Art of War, they say, "Give your opponent a golden bridge on which they can retreat."

Steven Bartlett 1:14:56 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:14:56 So they can retreat across this golden bridge.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:58 And trap them in a corner.

Chase Hughes 1:15:00 Yeah. So we give them an out that's beautiful. So, "Maybe you didn't mean this." And I always wanna think about, going back to that, what is the hidden feeling or fear that's behind what they're saying? They're scared of something. They're scared of losing a deal. They're scared of losing money. They're scared of looking a certain way. They're scared of what the people in the room are gonna think. So where is the hidden fear in someone's argument? Anytime you're in an argument, there is a level of concealed fear. In just 30, 40 seconds, you can find that. And a lot of people teach this as a tactic, but just stopping and looking at a person after they do that in an argument is so incredibly powerful.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:43 Just stopping and looking at them?

Chase Hughes 1:15:45 Yeah. So like say you made that statement to me about, "I'm gonna have to work 19 hours next week." The moment that I stop, it lessens the power of that statement because I'm not stopping as a tactic. I'm choosing to stop because I wanna process what you were saying, and that helps people to do that 'cause it feels less awkward, as if I'm doing a tactic, I'm doing that thing. But I'm just pausing because I'm gonna actually reflect on what you just said, and I'm gonna use that time for just a minute, I might look away. I might, as soon as you're done talking, I might say ... And I might just take a moment-

Steven Bartlett 1:16:25 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:16:25 ... and say, "Steven, it's ... Maybe I heard this wrong," and go right into that. So that long pause is so effective in conversation, especially when it's

Chase Hughes 1:16:34 meaningful and it's not a tactic.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:37 What is the most important thing we haven't talked about that we should have? As it, especially as it relates to what most people ask you about and they're most interested in?

Chase Hughes 1:16:44 Well, what is one thing that no one's ever asked you on a podcast?

Steven Bartlett 1:16:48 What is one thing no one's ever asked me?

Chase Hughes 1:16:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:51 People don't really ask me stuff.

Chase Hughes 1:16:52 Well, who are you, and what is your mission?

Steven Bartlett 1:16:55 Oh, you're doing something on me. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:16:57 I'm not doing something. Unless you were doing something to me.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:59 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:17:01 I would love to know. And, and why don't you answer that, and I'll break down the hidden statements that you're gonna reveal about your personality.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:09 Okay. Uh, who am I? Uh. Uh. I'm a podcaster. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm an investor. Uh, I'm a boyfriend. And what's my mission? Hmm. It's to pursue my potential and to follow my curiosity and to see what happens. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:17:31 All right.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:32 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:17:33 So, that's a great answer, but you went deeply into who you are as a person. So the first thing you did is look up and to your right.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:42 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:17:42 Then you looked up and to your left.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:43 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:17:43 Then up and to the center. So that, when your eyes are moving in multiple directions is called a transderivational search.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:49 Okay.

Chase Hughes 1:17:49 So I'm looking in different file cabinets that are inside of my head.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:53 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:17:54 And then you talked about some of the labels that you wore.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:57 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:17:58 And podcaster was first, but you mentioned boyfriend. So I know what's important to you.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:03 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:18:03 So like, the podcast. You don't say, "I'm a TV star."

Steven Bartlett 1:18:06 Uh-huh.

Chase Hughes 1:18:06 But most people would identify you as a, as a TV star, but it wasn't important to you.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:11 Yeah, it's not important to me.

Chase Hughes 1:18:12 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:12 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:18:13 So you could hear what's important to people.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:15 Interesting.

Chase Hughes 1:18:15 And then the mission was not about other people. It was about like, "How can I make myself better?" You may be doing that to enrich other people's lives.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:25 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:18:25 But you didn't say, "I have a podcast so I can benefit"-

Steven Bartlett 1:18:30 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:18:30 "... 10 million." Are you about to hit 10 million?

Steven Bartlett 1:18:32 Yeah. It's interesting 'cause I actually ... My brain, like, it was right there to say that, and then I thought, "It's just not the nature of the truth." Like, the truth is, I started this in my bedroom. And I always think about the fact that when I did it for three years, no one was listening. So my mission when I was doing it was genuinely because it, I really loved it.

Chase Hughes 1:18:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:53 It wasn't like, "I'm gonna change the world." And it's so tempting sometimes to like add that on, like, "I wanna change the world." And I just don't bel- I don't believe that's why most people start things and continue when no one's listening.

Chase Hughes 1:19:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:05 I think it's, it's usually something more selfish. If that makes sense.

Chase Hughes 1:19:08 Yeah. You started something, and you were passionate about the thing itself.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:13 I enjoyed the thing. Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:19:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:15 Yeah.

Chase Hughes 1:19:16 I love that. That was elicitation.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:20 Oh, okay. That, what you just did then?

Chase Hughes 1:19:22 Well, three. I think I did three layers.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:24 Okay.

Chase Hughes 1:19:25 But it's very, very genuine, and a lot of people-... get to the subscriber thing. I'm, I think I'll hit a million in a week or two, which is a huge milestone for me. I never thought I would have a million. But it was never important.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:40 On your main channel?

Chase Hughes 1:19:42 On, uh, the behavior panel. It's me and-

Steven Bartlett 1:19:45 That's incredible.

Chase Hughes 1:19:45 ... three other behavior profilers.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:47 Ah, yes. That's incredible.

Chase Hughes 1:19:48 Yeah. It's amazing. And we-

Steven Bartlett 1:19:50 Elicitation. That was elicitation. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:19:52 (laughs) Good job. So-

Steven Bartlett 1:19:56 (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:19:56 ... we just record Zooms, don't edit them at all.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:00 I've seen it. I know what you-

Chase Hughes 1:20:01 We just-

Steven Bartlett 1:20:01 Yeah. (laughs) I was just trying to elicit. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:20:03 It's, it's a little sloppy.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:04 (laughs) Yeah. So you were... Sorry, you were doing like a read of me. You said, I said podcaster, I said entrepreneur, I said investor, and then I said, I do it to like f... I think I said, um-

Chase Hughes 1:20:15 So your goals.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:16 Curiosity and then I... What was the other one? It was like, it was m- about my potential.

Chase Hughes 1:20:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:20 That's what I think about a lot. Like, pushing my potential and following my curiosity.

Chase Hughes 1:20:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:25 See what happens.

Chase Hughes 1:20:26 So, potential, curiosity. What would I see there? So I'm a podcaster, I did this for passion, I want my, I want to fulfill my potential. Am I seeing... I'm not seeing acceptance. I'm not seeing that you need approval from me to do anything. So it's about your personal level of significance.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:44 Mm-hmm.

Chase Hughes 1:20:44 Like, do I make a difference? But not to other people. But you still want people to acknowledge that you are reaching your potential, you are doing what you say you're going to do. You relying on your girlfriends, or we're talking about a little bit of a group. But all of what you're saying is about significance. So when I say, like, you make a tremendous difference in people's lives, and you're really enriching other people, you're doing exactly what you were born to do, it hits harder than if I said, "Lots of people appreciate you, and you're in so many great social circles, and you're like the center of attention in room..." Yeah. See that little-

Steven Bartlett 1:21:22 Grimace. (laughs)

Chase Hughes 1:21:23 Yeah. But other people