The Diary of a CEOThe Coffee Expert: The Surprising Link Between Coffee & Your Mental Health! James Hoffmann
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,084 words- 0:00 – 2:09
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're the former world barista champion. So we have cups of coffee here from different suppliers. So coffee number one...
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, I'd be surprised if that was expensive. I'd be a little bit outraged if that was expensive. That's kind of weird. That's really interesting. If you want the best experience for coffee, this one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I can reveal, that is... James Hoffman.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Of the most famous people in the world when it comes to coffee.
- SBSteven Bartlett
James has close to two million subscribers on YouTube. The most popular piece of coffee broadcasting on the planet. You've committed a huge portion of your life to coffee. What advice have you got for me?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Okay. London has some of the best coffee shops in the world. Don't get an espresso machine for that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Coffee pods.
- JHJames Hoffmann
They're a microwave meal.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How long does it take to decay?
- JHJames Hoffmann
The minute you open that bag, it's on its way out, and it will happen really quickly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You walk into the Starbucks, what do you order?
- JHJames Hoffmann
If I'm being fully weird...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Be fully weird.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Fine. Then I'm going to...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Say I've got £100 for the machinery.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Coffee grinders are the right investment. They are more important than the machine.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's your favorite cup of coffee?
- JHJames Hoffmann
If I'm honest, it is...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are we addicted?
- JHJames Hoffmann
It's the world's most popular psychoactive drug. But if you look at the science, coffee seems to be healthy and has a really positive impact wherever it's been measured. It's a great source of fiber. It is like having another vegetable with your diet. People tend to perform better on cognitive tests. It looks like coffee drinkers survive longer. The problem with it is that coffee has this really depressing future.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why? Quick one. This is really, really fascinating to me. On the backend of our YouTube channel, it says that 69.9% of you that watch this channel frequently over the lifetime of this channel haven't yet hit the subscribe button. I just wanted to ask you a favor. It helps this channel so much if you choose to su- subscribe. Helps us scale the guests, helps us scale the production, and it makes the show bigger. So if I could ask you for one favor, if you've watched the show before and you've enjoyed it and you like this episode that you're currently watching, could you please hit the subscribe button. Thank you so much. And I will repay that gesture by making sure that everything we do here gets better and better and better and better. That is a promise I'm willing to make you. Do we have a deal?
- 2:09 – 3:55
Why Coffee?
- SBSteven Bartlett
James, you've committed a huge portion of your life to a drink, to a bean, to coffee.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Uh, I love it. It brings me intense pleasure, like the whole thing. I think I fell in love with it 20 years ago and, uh, I tried working in wine. People get falling in love with wine, right? Like people...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
With the drink, with the culture, with where it's grown, all that stuff. The same can be true with coffee and turned out to be true for me. And, uh, I'm, uh, kind of obsessed with learning, and coffee is so big. People see it as kind of niche, what I do is a, a niche, but it's this global thing. It's in every culture. There's everything from botany, to science, to like health, all the rest of it is wrapped in this one thing. So I can spend lifetimes learning about it and never be done. It, it, it's just huge fun and it's one of those things that's capable of incredible surprise. People's expectations of coffee are very low often. And, and when you kind of show them what it can be, that's a very satisfying moment that never gets tiring.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because I just thought of coffee as a drink that everyone seems to be pretty addicted to. But I imagine your perspective on, on that is a little bit more, um, artistic and expansive.
- JHJames Hoffmann
I mean, yes and no. Coffee's existence kind of blows my mind. It's a thing that we all do, that for over 100 years now, it's been normal to have the ground up seeds of a tropical fruit plant just sitting in your cupboard, and you're going to steep that in water and drink it. That's a weird human thing that we do. And it's just been a part of everyone's lives for as long as they can remember. Coffee's just there. But it turns out i- in sort of the last 20 years, we've had this boom of specialty coffee where we've kind of, um, showcased how interesting it can be. You know, it's not just this commoditized thing. And I think that bit has sort of changed consumption
- 3:55 – 5:56
Are We addicted To Coffee?
- JHJames Hoffmann
around the world now, actually. I see it in every country. You know, people's opinions and expectations of coffee have shifted massively.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I first started drinking coffee, which I think I was quite late to coffee, and I think I'm quite a, a low level consumer of coffee. Part of the reason I was put off drinking coffee was because it appears that the entirety of society are addicted to it. And it might have this sort of first principle belief that anything that has a significant upside must come with a significant downside.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and no one can tell me what the downside was. So I was just very reluctant to engage in an addiction when I can see the upside. I can see people are more focused. They seem to be higher in energy. That's the appearance they have. But the, the downside was never clear. We are addicted, aren't we?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Do you know I don't like that word?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really? I can imagine.
- JHJames Hoffmann
But, uh, no, no, it's, you know, it's um... Yeah, it's the world's most popular psychoactive drug. It is the most widely consumed, so psychoactive drug. Yes, I would say it's absolutely bound itself into society now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A- are we addicted?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, I mean, addiction is complicated.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JHJames Hoffmann
I'm, I'm not an expert on addiction. I would say there's a level of dependency. If you stop drinking caffeine, you will suffer for 24 to 48 hours, and it might be a kind of big old headache. It might be something else. So you know, you will, uh, have symptoms if you stop consuming it. But, uh, you can stop consuming coffee and then go for years without an urge to consume it again. So I wouldn't say addiction's quite the right word for it. But yeah, we are, I would say, deeply dependent on it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you ever stopped drinking it for a prolonged period of time?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Not for a prolonged period of time. It's pretty hard for me not to, uh, sort of consume caffeine doing what I do. Like there's just a need to taste, a need to, you know, drink the stuff. I've stopped over a period of time, I've gotten sick. I've gone a week or two without it, but um, I've changed my attitude to caffeine generally. I'm, I'm much more careful around it because I think it is worthy of concern the amount of caffeine you consume. Like I'm very pro-coffee. I want people to drink and enjoy coffee, but at the same time, I, I am very nervous to encourage caffeine consumption that might be excessive
- 5:56 – 8:38
The Only Reason We Should Stop Drinking Coffee
- JHJames Hoffmann
'cause that's definitely not good for you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Sleep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, okay.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Like ultimately anything in this world that interrupts your sleep...... perhaps with the exception of children, is probably to be avoided, right? Like, sleep quality for every outcome, be it, you know, uh, body composition, longevity, all the rest of it, like, cognition. Uh, sleep's so important. And I feel like we, we didn't culturally prioritize the sleep the way we are beginning to now. You know, I think more and more people are talking about the importance of sleep. And it's really easy to get into a cycle, uh, with caffeine of drinking too much coffee in the day, you have poor-quality sleep, you're tired the next day. "I'll fix that with more caffeine, which will give you lower quality sleep at night." And that cycle can go on and on and on. I think that's very... That's a bad thing, basically. I, I would say that's to be avoided. So I'm pro cutting off caffeine early if you suffer with it in any way. And there's enough ways to track your sleep these days. I feel like everything's tracking our sleep. So you can tell if you've had a bad night's sleep. And if you drank a coffee late, maybe don't do that anymore because, you know, uh, uh, caffeine has about a five-hour half-life. So, you know, even 10 hours after you drank a cup of coffee, there's still a decent amount floating around in your system, enough that might, you know, delay onset of sleep or reduce the quality of your sleep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Isn't it bonkers that people offer you an espresso after dinner in restaurants?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, I don't, I don't get it. For some people, they find it very calming and they really enjoy it. They love it. They have no issue sleeping. I cannot touch c- uh, caffeine after, like, 3:00 PM. I have, like, a hard cutoff and I'm done. Um, but yeah, I find the, the, you know, just the idea that it's a, a digestive aid, I'm not sure that's super well-evidenced, uh, to be honest, uh, having looked into it anyway. But if people enjoy it, I'm not gonna get in the way of it. But for... And some people sleep like a baby afterwards. I'm always amazed by those people-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
... who are like, "Yeah, coffee, I go to sleep." Like, how? How?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
And there's big genetic differences, and I think we, we're starting to see those. And, and you can get genetic tests done that will give you an idea of your, uh, caffeine metabolizer kind of rate. Are you slow? Are you fast? But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's one of those weird things where because how coffee is made can impact the quantity of caffeine in the end cup, you can't accurately predict how much caffeine's in a, uh, coffee from a coffee shop. Right? There's a bunch of variables that could happen that will produce a pretty big variance. So this incredibly popular drug, we don't know how much we're taking most of the time, which I think is kind of wild, uh, and maybe not a good thing. And so I'm, I'm kind of pro mindful consumption of this stuff, if that makes sense. Like, uh, just be aware of it and thoughtful about it, and still enjoy it. I want people to drink and enjoy coffee, but I, I want as much upside as possible, as little downside.
- 8:38 – 11:04
Do We Get Immune To Coffee The More We Drink?
- JHJames Hoffmann
- SBSteven Bartlett
You used the word drug there. With drugs, you get a sort of tolerance-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that requires you to have more and more of the thing to get to the same levels of, I don't know, psychoactive-ness. Is that the same with coffee, where if I have one coffee today, in a couple of months time, I'm gonna need two to get to the same level of, like, alertness?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yes and no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Uh, it seems to be that the benefits that we see of caffeine when it comes to cognition, uh, disappear with habitual usage. And actually adding more doesn't change it. That first coffee that feels so good is taking as sort of... Uh, instead of going from zero to one, it's taking us from minus one to zero. It's removing the kind of withdrawal symptom almost, and bringing us back to a kind of level of like, "Okay, I'm, I'm here now." And so if you really, really want maximum benefit from caffeine, be it cognition or sports or anything else, then actually having a period without coffee beforehand will give you the sort of greatest benefit afterwards. So there's a habituation, I guess.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
But it doesn't escalate the way that drugs do. Like, you, you don't need to suddenly be drinking six, eight, 10 cups of coffee to have an effect. You'll just feel weird. Uh, so yeah, a little bit though.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Again, going back to my first principles, one of my first principles in life generally, and this is why I often avoid medicine, paracetamol, you name it, I will... I'd rather take the headache than, than start dabbling because I always think there's a cost to something. When I think about the way we live our lives in society, we literally... Many people will have three or four c- cups of coffee a day.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Some people even more. Some people will dr- just drink coffee all the way through the day, throughout work, and then have one on their way home from work as well. And I look at that objectively and go, "That's insanity." That this in- sort of the entire Western population is just, like, caffeinating themselves just to function. And then you hear phrases like, I, like, um, "Oh, I can't function, I can't function. I've not had my coffee yet."
- JHJames Hoffmann
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I just go, this is... You know. But I don't know enough about coffee to understand if that's just, you know, maybe there is a free lunch as it relates to coffee, or maybe sleep is the only...
- JHJames Hoffmann
I think sleep's the primary concern.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Uh, you know, if you... And if you're not suffering any issues with sleep from your coffee consumption, then, you know, if you look at the science, and I, I'm not a scientist, I really... I like to read the research papers, but I'm not doing the research. But, uh, on almost every front, coffee seems to be healthy and have a really positive impact wherever it's been measured, and across a whole range of different stuff. So,
- 11:04 – 22:40
The Surprising Health Benefits Of Coffee
- JHJames Hoffmann
you know, as to why caffeine is one part of it, I think the fact that coffee contains a surprising amount of fiber is another one, or the quantity of polyphenols in there, if you're interested in the gut microbiome. Like, coffee seems to be really good for that. And I think we know more and more the microbiome, you know, uh, Tim Spector has taught us all, uh, the importance of that, that it impacts us in so many different ways. So on almost any front, if you've researched, is coffee good for, you know, longevity? Yes, you see a reduction in all-cause mortality that correlates to coffee consumption. Is it good for, uh, cognitive decline? Yes, you tend to see coffee consumption associated with, uh, l- less cognitive dec- decline in old age. Or liver function, cancer. All, all of these things seem to have, uh, a positive association with coffee drinking. But if it's messing with your sleep, I don't think it's worth it. That's just me. Uh, that's the, the line for me of like, it, it, it's not such an incredible benefit that that i- is worth the loss of sleep quality.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. Yeah, sleep has become just the most...... sort of the biggest obsession in my life over the last year.
- JHJames Hoffmann
I think for all of us. I think it's, it's just if you pay attention to this stuff-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JHJames Hoffmann
... you can't help but begin to obsess over it. I hope healthily.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
- JHJames Hoffmann
But, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
So to, to avoid the im- im- impact of coffee impacting our sleep, you think the best thing to do is... 'Cause I've just not been drinking coffee after, like, 1:00 PM.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Great.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JHJames Hoffmann
I think that's a pretty good way to go. I think decaf is still a good option. I think people are kind of really negative about decaf because we have this caffeine-first association with coffee.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
A lot of people are like, "Why would I drink decaf? What's the point?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
You know, you see a lot of death before decaf or whatever. But I, I think decaf can be really tasty, which is good. Like it's a nice delicious hot drink. And also, yeah, there's a little bit less of a downside if you are concerned about caffeine.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm so, I'm so con- you and Tim Spector are the two people that have made the case... I'm thinking the first time I spoke to Tim Spector about coffee, he was a little bit, mm, on the fence w- as to whether it was healthy or not. He came back a second time, and I think there's been a little bit of a shift in him. He's now pro-coffee.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In terms of the gut microbiome, which I thought was super interesting. He says it counts as one of my 30-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... fruit and vegetables-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... a week that I need to get, which was really surprising. So it helped my gut microbiome. He talked about the longevity impacts as well, which I thought was staggering that it can... The studies seem to show that it will extend your life.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah. It's a reduction in all cause mortality. So you're just less likely to die early, I suppose, is the easiest way to think about it. Or that's what we see from the studies. And it's not that the studies aren't without flaws, but there's been a lot now and you tend to see people dying less often or less early, uh, when they drink more coffee. Not a huge amount of coffee. And this is a, if you ever go into the research, this is really important. Uh, a cup of coffee to you or me might look like this. A cup of coffee to a researcher is 120 mills of coffee, which is about half of this. So you'll see loads of studies say three cups of coffee, three cups of coffee is when you see these benefits. That's not a liter of coffee. That's more like three to 400 mills total a day of say, filter coffee or one or two or three espressos, single espressos. So the, the definition of a, a cup from all these studies is really confusing and problematic and I think encourages excess coffee consumption. Uh, but yeah, three cups of coffee for heart disease, for, uh, all sorts of things is, is, is seen to be associated with, uh, improvement in outcome.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why might that be? What is it about the bean, the coffee bean that is causing health benefits?
- JHJames Hoffmann
That's, that's probably above my pay grade.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
I would, I would probably, at this point, I'm probably aligned with Tim in that it's a great source of fiber and polyphenols. That it's just, it is like having another vegetable into the diet. It's more diversity of diet. Uh, I think one study showed that for some people in the US like cups of filter coffee were their primary source of dietary fiber. Now that's kind of wild and not really how things should be, but it is a significant source of fiber if you think about it that way. Uh, uh, you know, a large cup might be three grams of fiber, which doesn't seem like much until you start tracking your fiber intake and you realize, oh, that's a, that's a, a decent contribution for a drink. Um, so yeah-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
... I think that's the biggest part of it. I don't think caffeine has been shown to be neuroprotective necessarily. So I think people are trying to understand the mechanism more. Caffeine's been studied separately and, and is much easier to study because you can dose it, you can look at the effects of that. To really do a study on coffee consumption is really hard. You can't really do a randomized controlled trial where you raise people from say, 15 to 60 years old. You control their diet, exercise, sleep, and you just randomize the coffee consumption 'cause then you might see something that you could really say coffee is good or bad. We can just look at these large epidemiological studies and say, "Well, trying to control for diet and exercise and cigarettes and all these other things, it looks like coffee drinkers survive longer or have less issues." And it might just be that he- healthy people are just attracted to coffee. We don't really know which, which way around that is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 22:40 – 27:04
How Caffeine Actually Works
- JHJames Hoffmann
the brain and coffee specifically.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, w- I used to believe that coffee was basically giving me energy.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then it was actually d- Daniel Amen, Dr. Daniel Amen that helped me understand what's actually going on.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He says it's just like blocking something.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yes. It's, it's, it's stopping, uh, a compound called adenosine working in your blood, and adenosine calms you down, lowers your heart rate, makes you feel tired and sleepy. And caffeine just gets in the way of that receptor and stops it working. And so a lot of people, uh, experience a kind of accumulation of adenosine, and so while they're consuming coffee, their body's trying to put out adenosine, lower the heart rate, calm them down, it's not working. And eventually your body clears the caffeine and you have a kind of crash afterwards where you suddenly just feel extremely tired because finally your receptors are clear to receive the amount of adenosine that's in your blood. So yeah, there's, there's a kind of downside that way. Again, big doses tend to come with bigger crashes, you know? I think a lot of people now are pushing the idea that you should delay caffeine consumption a little bit later in the day. Uh, I think Huberman is big on like no coffee for the first 90, 120 minutes after waking to help sort of mitigate this effect and sort of clear out everything in your bloodstream before you start inhibiting adenosine, uh, reception.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that why people get like crashes and stuff like that? 'Cause a lot of drinks that are coming to market now that are like caffeine-based products are promising you that you won't get crashes and jitters. So I was wondering if they're-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Right. You see a lot of people pushing L-theanine in there as a product which seems to have a synergistic effect and, and help people feel a little calmer while sort of maintaining the benefits from that. I think the evidence is reasonable on that but, um, again, those products tend to be a bit more sort of thoughtful about the amount of caffeine in them and I, and I think the amount of caffeine is really kind of key. You, you know, um, you might have something with say 100 milligrams of caffeine. That's a, that's a pretty acceptable dose. You might find that in a single espresso or in say a small cup of filter coffee. If you take a pre-workout-... that's often 300 milligrams of caffeine. And so there's all these ways that we can consume caffeine quite easily. Coca-Cola is pretty low, I think like 50, 60 milligrams of caffeine in a can or a bottle of Coca-Cola. But you can easily end up drinking 200, 250 milligrams in coffee as well. If it's a, uh, lower quality coffee, it tends to have more caffeine in it. If it's brewed as a sort of very strong filter coffee, it's just knowing how much you're taking it that I think is kind of key.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And why, why does that matter? Is that again about sleep or is it just because if you take huge doses then there'll be significant consequences, like crashes and stuff like that?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah. I, I think it's the, the more you dose, the longer it's going to take to clear from your system, the more that will be in your blood come time to go to sleep. You know, I, I think the, the lethal dose of, of caffeine is really pretty high. A few people have got there, sadly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- JHJames Hoffmann
But it's, it's, it's a huge amount of coffee. It's usually done with like pills or other sort of forms of caffeine consumption. To do it with just cups of coffee is like, I think 50 or 60 cups of coffee in a very short timeframe. A very strong coffee would be about what, what was necessary for a small person to hit a sort of caffeine toxicity. So it's quite hard to do. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you'd die of a cardiovascular issue or just poisoning?
- JHJames Hoffmann
I think it's more unpleasant than that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, really?
- JHJames Hoffmann
... as I recall. Yeah. I think it's a sort of neurological thing as well. It's not... I don't think it's a good death, if I'm honest. Uh, not that there are... you know, maybe there are good ones. But yeah, I don't think it's a good way to go.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Coffee was originally a snack.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Kind of.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Kind of?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, the coffee fruit was.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JHJames Hoffmann
So, uh, it's kind of... Uh, most people don't think of coffee as fruit. And coffee fruit grows on these trees, they're usually about two meters tall, full of these sort of ripe red cherry looking things. We call them coffee cherries. They're about the size of a grape, but inside there's these two seeds, kind of like a peanut facing each other, and they take up most of the fruit. Uh, so if you eat them, they're not very satisfying. They're mostly seed, bit of skin, and a little bit of kind of fruit flesh, for want of a better term, on the inside. But it is delicious. It's kind of like a tangy watermelon taste. Coffee fruit's very delicious. I recommend. If you can try it, definitely try it. Um, caffeine exists in coffee primarily as an insect repellent. That's why the plant produces it, so that if an insect attacks the fruit, it gets a whack of caffeine and it's like, "Nope," and it leaves the fruit alone. So that's its function in nature. Other plants produce caffeine. There's some interesting stuff about how, uh, caffeine improves the memory of bees, which helps with pollination, uh, as kind of... So some flowers produce caffeine, uh, than they think for that reason. But the, the caffeine in fruit, in coffee trees specifically, is basically insect repellent, which is why the higher you grow c- uh, coffee, the less insects there are and actually the lower the levels of caffeine you tend to see the plant produce.
- 27:04 – 28:16
Becoming The World’s Number 1 Barista Champion
- JHJames Hoffmann
- SBSteven Bartlett
You became a competitive coffee...
- JHJames Hoffmann
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't know, what do you call it? Do you call it a player? Barista?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Barista.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You became a competitive coffee barista when you were what, 25 years old?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, about that. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then by 27 you were named the World Barista Champion.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yes. I, I think I went hard. Uh, you know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JHJames Hoffmann
A couple of things. Yeah. Well, I really fell in love with it, you know what I mean? Like, like I got into coffee at like 23. I didn't like coffee, didn't drink coffee. And then I read a book, uh, called The Devil's Cup. That just-
- SBSteven Bartlett
This book.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it's a fun book. It's, it's... I don't know how well it's aged, but it's just travel writing. So he traces the route that coffee took from Ethiopia to Yemen through kind of, uh, Turkey into the Mediterranean, how it spread around the world. And what got me about that book was like coffee's in every culture, and it's different. Italian espresso culture is totally different to Scandinavian coffee culture, totally different to Australian coffee culture, or, you know, what coffee culture is in the US. And I was like, "Well, this drink's kind of interesting." Like, it's a part of every society now. And then I started to drink it and I fell in love with it, and I just went deeper and deeper and deeper. And, um, yeah, in 2007 I won the World Barista Championships.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So if you're the former World Barista Champion-
- JHJames Hoffmann
(laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and I
- 28:16 – 31:10
The Biggest Misconceptions About Coffee
- SBSteven Bartlett
am a muggle, which I am on coffee and many things, what do I need to know? What are the like, the biggest myths and misconceptions about the drink of coffee that someone like me should be aware of? I'm trying to have better coffee. I'm not, you know, I'm not ne- I'm never going to be like a coffee snob, but I'm, I want to make... I want nicer coffees that are good for me, that are healthy, um, and that taste great. What do I need to know? What are the misconceptions?
- JHJames Hoffmann
There's, there's probably less misconceptions now than ever, I would say. Like the, the... I think more people are coming round to the idea that coffee is not just a bitter, painful experience that you go through to get to the caffeine on the other side, like it's a little trial each morning that we come to enjoy. I think people now understand more and more that there is an astonishing sort of range of flavor in coffee. 20 years ago, there wasn't. 40 years ago, there was no diversity of flavor in coffee. Coffee was brown and mean and miserable, and that was it. And now you can have coffees that taste kind of fruity and floral. You can have coffees that taste earthy and rich or chocolatey or whatever else. Like, so I, I think the thing that I want to kind of get out into the world is whatever you enjoy, I'm pretty sure there's something you could enjoy more, because there's so much out there, there's so much diversity. That's the first thing. I think that the second thing that I think people do understand is that, you know, coffee's kind of made three times in a weird sort of way. Coffee's made at the farm level, and we would understand that with wine. Like a, a grower grows the grapes, they make the wine at that point, and the producer of raw coffee carefully grows fruit, harvests the seeds, processes them carefully, and you can do a good job there or a bad job, and you've kind of got a peak quality moment there. Coffee is made again when you roast it. It's transformed completely from a kind of green plant smelling thing into one of the most aromatic things in the world. And then it's made again when you make it. And in each of these stages, you can lose the quality completely. You can do a terrible job roasting it and make it taste awful, and you can do a terrible job brewing it and make it taste awful. And I think for a lot of people, coffee making was not particularly a skill. Coffee making was not complex or hard, and it shouldn't be complex, but it, it's easy to get wrong. And I think you can be disappointed by a coffee that you've made without really understanding why. And a lot of what I'm interested in is like, okay, you don't need to understand everything about this process. You need to work out what are the most important things to understand and get those right, and then you're most of the way there.... I don't think the, the kind of average consumer is necessarily uninformed or confused, but potentially overwhelmed by choice still.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well I, I see a variance in the price.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I assume there must be a variance in what I'm putting in my mouth. Or-
- JHJames Hoffmann
100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Or, and, um, I'm not sure what's marketing and what's, you know, quality.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, I've brought five different cups of coffee.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
From five local shops, outlets, et cetera.
- 31:10 – 43:43
Blind Tasting Different Coffees
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I'm going to... I don't know which ones are which, so my team got me these five cups of coffee. Jackie's just bringing them in now. So we have five different-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... cups of coffee here from five different suppliers. You're smelling them all. When you're smelling them is there anything you're noticing just from smelling them?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, like, um, so that one of the things that I can assess pretty quickly is how darkly the coffee's been roasted. Y- when you have, uh, the longer you leave coffee in a roasting machine the darker the color the beans will be.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
And for a long time I think people associated darker roast with, with better coffee, oilier beans looked kind of fancier. Whereas it swung the other way and lighter roasts now are considered better or more expensive because they kind of preserve more of the inherent qualities of the raw materials. Um, so these are all reasonably dark roasts just from smell. So I can kind of, the, the smells I'm coming off there are more in the kind of heavier, not burnt smells, although some of them actually smell a little bit burnt and kind of, uh, harsh. But, uh, nothing's particularly fruity or floral smelling. So it's just for me a, a kind of gauge of where things are going to be. So there's going to be an expectation with that of bitterness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In, in perfume shops they give us sometimes coffee beans to smell to kind of-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... try and wash out our-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... nasal senses, I guess. Does that work?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, it totally does. We, we, we are... it's why dogs sniff really fast, that you're looking for change. Your sense of smell works quite well on change. Uh, and so yes, you will get what's called s- suppression if you smell the same kind of smells over and over, they become less and less intense. It's why people end up wearing too much of the same perfume they've worn for 20 years, because they can't, literally can't smell it anymore. We can.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
They can't.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's also evidenced when you go for a run and then, 'cause you can smell yourself, you have to ask your friend if you smell.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you go, "Dave, do I stink?"
- JHJames Hoffmann
Do I, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause your brain... your nose, I guess, is habituated to the-
- JHJames Hoffmann
There's a good hack if you ever want to break apart how, like, something like Coca-Cola smells. If you take a component smell of Coca-Cola, like lime, right? 'Cause Coke just tastes of Coke to people. But it's actually lime, neroli, cinnamon, orange, nutmeg. And if you smell a bunch of cinnamon and then smell Coke, it smells weird because you've deleted cinnamon from Coca-Cola's flavor.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, interesting.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Like aroma profile. And you can do that with, say, lime and smell, and it's like, whoa, I've thrown the balance out by kind of deleting that and suppressing that. It's a dull but fun kind of trick.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The interesting thing-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Anyway.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... with, uh, talking about Coca-Cola there is, I remember those Coke and Pepsi studies from back in the day where-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... people would rate Pepsi as tasting better unless they had it in a Coke can. So when they could see the brand-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Interesting.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... of the Coca-Cola they rated it better, but when they could see it in a plastic cup, they rated Pepsi better. And I wonder here as well, because you, you don't know what these coffees are, you don't know what brands they are, and neither do I-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah.
- 43:43 – 44:46
Your Businesses
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you have, uh, quite a lot of businesses. Um-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I, I, I've read somewhere that you'd started I think 11 or 12 different companies.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Getting on for that, I think, at this point now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are, what are those businesses?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Um, that's a good question.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JHJames Hoffmann
Uh, my first business, uh, I started back in 2008 just after I won the World Barista Championships, um, which was a coffee roasting company. Um, and that still is, I suppose, my primary business today even if I don't run that anymore. There's, uh, uh, an amazing MD in there and, uh, I just sort of try not to start fires and be useful where I can do. Uh, over the years we've started other things, uh, distribution companies kind of importing stuff or, uh, we have a coffee shop, we've done training businesses, kind of education, that kind of stuff, uh, equipment businesses, kind of the big commercial espresso machines in there. I started a, a coffee, coffee recruitment business, uh, that I ultimately sold a little while back. Um, I'm trying to think of other thing. I've started a magazine, I've started a bunch of other stuff. And then there's, you know, getting into YouTube that's become a weird business in and of itself that I didn't plan to start but is now a kind of all-consuming business.
- SBSteven Bartlett
With,
- 44:46 – 53:14
What Are The Topics About Coffee People Care Most About
- SBSteven Bartlett
with the YouTube business you must have learned a lot about what people are interested in as it relates to coffee. 'Cause you'll see you talk about certain things and people just seem to gravitate towards those subject matters.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what is it that people care so much about a- as it relates to coffee and your audience care about?
- JHJames Hoffmann
That's a great question. Uh, because I think coming into this I, I, for years and years, as people did back then, wrote a blog. And I wrote a blog to sort of share information about coffee 'cause it was great for me to learn and also there's a benefit to sharing. I think if you give, things come back to you in the world. And then people stopped reading blogs and I started making videos. And I think having worked in the coffee industry for 20 years we had tried to talk to people about coffee and nothing really hit and people weren't really interested and they didn't like the way we talked about it and suddenly YouTube I found a way to connect with people. And it turns out we vastly underestimated how broad and how deep people's interest in coffee is. Yeah, people care about, "Which machine should I buy?" And that remains a question that I will be asked I think for the re- end of my days as-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Excuse me, so which machine? (laughs)
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well-
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, I'm gen- genuinely want to know which machine I should buy because-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Well, I don't know, right? It depends what your needs are, like, uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, my needs-
- JHJames Hoffmann
... what's your budget? Like, what do you want to spend?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Budget's big. (laughs)
- JHJames Hoffmann
What kind of experience do you want, right? Like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
But I love an espresso.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I want a qu- I like speed and I want q- ... I mean, I'm like everybody. (laughs)
- JHJames Hoffmann
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I want it to be super fast and really nice. (laughs)
- JHJames Hoffmann
So the, the problem with espresso specifically-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JHJames Hoffmann
... is that good espresso is a little bit tricky and it means to get really great espresso at home you kind of want to have it as hobby. And if that does not appeal to you, then don't get an espresso machine for home because you will spend a ton of money and you... I can get you the best machine in the world, put it on your counter. After a week you'll be like, "Oh, you just can't be bothered. I don't want to do this." And I think suddenly the $2.50, £3.00 that the independent business charges you, you're like, "Oh, that's great. I will happily pay you to go through the pain of making espresso." Because it's messy, it's slow, it's convoluted, it's tricky, it's frustrating and as a hobby really rewarding, but as a way to caffeinate yourself in the morning, not the best.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about an Americano? Like a great Americano?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Like, like a great filter coffee?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JHJames Hoffmann
There's, there's definitely options there and, and you can buy a, a, a machine and grinder and spend, wha- ... you can get an incredible setup for like £500.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Bearing in mind espresso machines, an incredible setup will be 2, 3, £4000. If you're looking at the, like, the, the top end of stuff. You can go all the way up to t- ... I can spend 10, 10, £15,000 of your money if you'd like me-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jesus me, thanks.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Uh, if, if that's, that's where the budgets sort of top out in, in-home espresso. But it's kind of, at that point it's like home, home audio where people just, they want the best possible thing-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JHJames Hoffmann
... and if they have the budget, that market exists.
- 53:14 – 54:50
Coffee Pods
- SBSteven Bartlett
and that are getting more and more popular?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wake up in the morning, grab the pod, whack it in there, boom, hit button. Shh, drink.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Out comes coffee. Yeah. Um, the best analogy I can make is they're, they're a microwave meal. And microwave meals are what they are. They are of a quality, they are super convenient. There's a fair amount of waste attached to them and, um, you could probably do better with a little bit of effort and it would cost you less.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you, do you use those pods?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Not really. Not the... like I... there are some, uh, and there are... that are kind of separate and different. I, I don't want to get into right now. Um, I think a lot of the sort of small Nespresso kind of style capsule ones are very popular. I just wish they were a bit more recyclable. There's a bit of waste associated with those. But ultimately they're very expensive. Actually for what you're... you're paying a lot of money for that and you're paying for the convenience, I think. The... for the same price per kilo, you could buy some of the best coffees in the world for what you're spending on a capsule 'cause you're l- you're spending money for five grams of coffee 'cause that's what it is. Uh, but the convenience is, is very strong and it's been so success-... I can't argue with convenience. We love a little convenience. But the possibility of, of quality is far greater once you move beyond those. You know what I mean? Like anytime we go convenience, we have to sacrifice something and it's usually quality and it's usually value ultimately. We're going to pay more for that convenience. So I get it. I get not wanting to make espresso but wanting something like espresso in the mornings. They've really succeeded in sort of filling that market. But they are to me
- 54:50 – 58:14
The History Of Coffee
- JHJames Hoffmann
still a kind of microwave meal.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there any culture that doesn't drink caf- coffee?
- JHJames Hoffmann
No, everyone drinks, everyone drinks coffee. People have tried to ban it a few times. It was seen as a kind of seditious drink that was kind of, uh... So from a political perspective. Uh, they tried to ban it here in the UK briefly, I think, uh, King James, I want to say, tried to ban it. Doesn't last very long. We tend to get pretty grumpy if you try and ban it. Uh, it had a sort of... They asked the Pope to ban it at one point and he was like, "No, it's great." And so he, he didn't do that. That was hundreds of years ago. But yeah, coffee was often linked to, uh, politics in the early days. So London was the greatest coffee drinking city in the world for a while. From 16, late 1600s, coffee just comes here to the city of London and takes over. Because up until that point, we were drinking a lot of weak beer. That was the sort of safe, uh, high calorie, high B vitamin kind of drink that we drunk. And we were all a little bit drunk most of the time from drinking a couple of liters or three liters of weak beer a day. Coffee arrives and it's this safe drink that is totally the opposite to beer. It is stimulating and it transforms London society of the time. And, uh, we get obsessed with it. Coffeehouses appear everywhere. There is, uh, the story that in the Square Mile in the early 1700s, there were 2,000 coffee shops. Now that's, that's excessive. It wasn't that many. It was probably... But it was several hundred. Like, they were everywhere. And they quickly diversified and sort of specialized into specific things. And so, uh, very famously, Lloyd's of London, the insurance broker started as a coffee shop called Lloyd's of London. And people did business at the tables, those became offices. And to this day, runners in there are still called waiters. And, and so that just happened to specialize in shipping insurance, that coffeehouse. Others specialized in politics. O- others specialized in literature. They became known as penny universities because you could pay a penny to get into a London coffeehouse and you would gain the education just from listening to people talk of a university degree. And so they were these incredible places for a while. Uh, eventually our colonial interest shifted to tea and the coffeehouse went into the decline in sort of 1700s, 1800s. But for about 100 years, London was the most incredible coffee drinking city in the world.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When coffee came to the UK-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and when it came to the western world, was there a productivity boom?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, 100%. Uh, huge change in culture. Massi- 'cause we were no longer drunk all the time. Um, so yeah, it arrives in London, I think, in 1652 is th- the first, uh, coffee shop that's right just near Bank tube station. You can see a little blue plaque on the wall if you go looking for it there. Uh, yeah, we, we absolutely fell in love with it. It became a part of industry, culture, politics, everything. Like, it w- it supercharged the nation. There are people who argue that, uh, you know, we, we awake from this drunken stupor and then are like, "Well, what's the rest of the world got to offer?" And we go and become the colonial, you know, horror show that we were, uh, after that. And you can blame coffee for that. But, uh, it's a bit of a stretch. But, uh, yeah, it, it was a massive shift in society.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I think for most of my life assumed that tea didn't have caffeine in it. I don't know why, I just always thought coffee, caffeine. I think 'cause they sound similar.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) But then I, I heard at one point that tea also has caffeine in it as well.
- JHJames Hoffmann
A little bit. Nowhere near the quantities, uh, of coffee, but, you know, if you're drinking 10, 12 cups of tea a day, it's probably worth paying attention to how much is in there and how you steep your tea and all that kind of stuff will have an impact on how much caffeine's
- 58:14 – 1:03:22
Your Favourite Coffee Drink
- JHJames Hoffmann
in there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what's your, what's your favorite cup of coffee? You get... Must get as- asked this all the time.
- JHJames Hoffmann
I do get asked this all the time, and I still after 20 years don't have a great answer. I drink a lot of filter coffee. Uh, so you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is filter coffee?
- JHJames Hoffmann
So filter coffee is not from an espresso machine. So it's going to be brewed either in a filter coffee machine or by hand. You'll see a lot of people pouring water over coffee. Uh, the drink is gonna be the same kind of strength as an Americano, but it's a sort of, it's a, it's a weaker thing. I'm, I'm not obsessed with espresso the same way. I want a cup of black coffee 'cause I want to take my time. Because as you taste a cup of coffee, if it's a great cup of coffee, as it cools down, its, its flavor kind of opens up and becomes really interesting and complex. And so I like the idea that I can sit for 10, 15 minutes and if I want to, have a really enjoyable kind of journey of flavor. That, for me, is, is the, the kind of great bit about coffee. Yeah, I'll drink an espresso sometimes if I want a little short shot of something tasty. But, but the idea that I can, if I want, have 10, 15 minutes to myself to enjoy this thing and see some benefits afterwards, that's a wonderful thing. So I like coffees from all over the world. I feel like I'm forcing myself, uh, into a tiny space here. If I could only drink coffee from one country for the rest of my life, it would probably be coffees from Colombia. Uh, they just have a real spread of flavors, but some really just incredible coffees come from that part of the world. But there's amazing coffee from just, just about every producing country. If you're within the Tropic of, uh, Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn, that kind of belt around the Earth, then you can probably grow coffee above certain altitudes. And almost every country that is in that band does grow coffee. So there's a lot of different places that grow it. Um, and there's gonna be great coffee in all of those places. And there'll be cheap and low quality coffee in all those places too. But yeah, there's... The, the range, the, the spread is massive.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you pour sugar and milk into your coffee?
- JHJames Hoffmann
I don't use sugar and milk. And I get why people do, because most coffee benefits from sugar and milk. Milk is a very, uh, it has a weird quirk. It's a bitter blocker. It inhibits bitterness. So when you put it into a harsh, bitter cup of coffee, it does soften that. We, of course, like sweet things. I think, uh, one thing to note when it comes to all of the studies that look at coffee and is coffee healthy, they'll be like, "Yes, coffee's healthy if you drink it black." And if you're putting a lot of cream and a lot of sugar into your coffee, there are... The health benefits very quickly taken away. You know what I mean? It's, it's not, quote unquote, "as healthy a drink." Uh, for me, putting milk or sugar into coffee kind of hides the flavors a little bit. And so I, I, I want to taste it without. I get why people want to put it in there. I don't have an issue with people sweetening or, or adding a little milk or cream. But y- you kind of lose some of what makes coffee so interesting.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In...... this book.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How To Make The Best Coffee At Home. One of the points you make is quite surprising. You say that once a, um... 'Cause I used to think that coffee was a shelf staple.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I used to think you get it, you can grind it, you can put it in the cupboard, and it kind of lasts forever.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it doesn't change. You make the case that I'm wrong.
- JHJames Hoffmann
It is sadly not the case. It's fresh food, unfortunately. The, the challenge coffee has is that we just can't see its change. If I dice up an apple and I leave it for, uh, a couple of hours, you can see the change in it. It's staling in a bunch of different ways. When you smash coffee into little pieces when you grind it to find powder, you kickstart a bunch of chemistry that you can't undo. And some of that's oxidation, where oxygen transforms things and turns fats a little bit rancid over time. You lose a bunch of the aromas locked inside the bean. It just gets less interesting tasting. If you want the best experience for coffee, grinding it fresh is, is the way to do it. Also, grinding coffee is one of the, like the best smells in the world. Why would you not have that as part of your life? Uh, and so yeah, coffee is fresh food, and if you treat it like fresh food, it tastes way better. And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
How long does it take to decay? So if-
- JHJames Hoffmann
That's a good question.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So if I had it in the, in the cupboard, you know...
- JHJames Hoffmann
Once you grind coffee, most people would easily detect a difference a day later.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- JHJames Hoffmann
And, and they would say it tasted notably worse two days later. And so buying pre-ground coffee is buying high convenience, but the cost is you never got to experience how good that coffee was at the moment it was ground.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So if I buy it in supermarkets-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it's gonna taste awful compared to in a-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah, you've just-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... coffee shop?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Y- y- yeah. You get a lot less for your money in terms of flavor. It will have degraded. They can gas flush it and they'll, uh, you know, pack the bags with the inert gases and stuff. But the minute you open that bag, it's on its way out and it will happen really quickly. And so the downside is coffee grinders cost a little bit of money and they take up a little bit of space and they're another step in the morning between you and getting your caffeine in, in the system. I understand that. But if you want the best value for money, a, a, a bag of beans costs the same as a bag of ground coffee, even though the ground coffee has more cost in terms of manufacture. But the value of the beans is just way higher. It just tastes way better. And so having a grinder lets you get better value for money in the coffee that you buy going forwards.
- 1:03:22 – 1:06:10
The Future Of Coffee
- JHJames Hoffmann
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you think the future of coffee is? We've talked a little bit about the history of coffee, but where, where do you think the coffee industry and public opinion around coffee goes from here?
- JHJames Hoffmann
You know, I think we've fallen pretty deeply in love with coffee in a different kind of way in the last few years. I think the, the pandemic caused a seismic shift in coffee consumption around the world. People had grown used to going out to coffee shops, drinking good quality coffee. And, and that was part of their lives. And when the pandemic happened and people couldn't do that, the growth in coffee equipment at home was astronomical. This was, this was something people wanted to invest in and were not willing to let go of. I, I wasn't really sure pre-pandemic, if you said, "How much do people really love coffee?" I'm like, "Well, they like it a lot but, you know, maybe they'd let it go if it got too expensive." But in that moment where we took it away, people were like, "Absolutely not. Coffee stays." And, and, and that was really heartening to me. And that was all over the world. Every, every market, every country I spoke to people, they saw the same thing, huge interest in coffee at home. So I feel good about that. I feel like the, the promise of specialty coffee where we, where we've said... You know, the, the promise of specialty coffee where we've said, "Coffee can be better. It's a bit more expensive, but it tastes more interesting," people have enjoyed that and found that to be true. So right now I feel very good about coffee consumption from a, uh, longevity point of view for the industry. People want to keep drinking coffee. Like I said, the, the challenge on one side remains coffee production's future. It's gonna be increasingly difficult to grow great quality coffee in the future with climate change. We're already seeing the impact of that now. A changing wa- rainfall patterns, all sorts of other stuff is making coffee harder to grow. That's going to put the price of it up in the future for the high quality stuff. But for a while, I, I, I think it will sort of stay. I don't think we're willing to let go. I think we are gonna be, be paying more attention to caffeine in the future, and I think that's a good thing. I would en- encourage people to pay more attention to caffeine in the future, and that may decrease our consumption overall. And I'm also okay with that too. I'd rather people spent good money on two great cups of coffee a day than just five average ones just to get them through. Uh, like I, I'm okay with lowering consumption and increasing the quality of it. That works very well for me, uh, because I think it'll bring more pleasure to people ultimately. They enjoy the coffee they drink more. It's not this mindless cheap thing they endlessly consume. It's a moment of pleasure, and I think it can be this moment of absolute delight and interest and pleasure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If you were looking for your moment of pleasure walking through the streets of London-
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... where would you turn? Which shop would you go into? I mean, we're talking about coffee here when I say moment of pleasure. Just so... (laughs) Just in case you, uh, you thought something else.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Something subho. No. Um... (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Um, where would you turn? 'Cause I'm walking through London all the time and as a muggle I look up and I go, okay, all these logos, they're
- 1:06:10 – 1:09:52
What Coffee Should We Buy
- SBSteven Bartlett
all saying coffee. Where should I be? Should I be going for a random independent and f- rolling the dice? Should I be going to a chain? What's your POV?
- JHJames Hoffmann
London has some of the best independent coffee shops in the world, you know? Like, and that's true of most major cities now. Like, incredible coffee isn't... is very available now if you know where to look. And I guarantee, that's the tricky bit-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
... knowing in advance. By and large though, there's enough written about on the internet. If you search best specialty coffee in whatever city, you'll find a, a great list of 20 that will be a good experience. It might be a bit more expensive, but it will be, uh, I think a better coffee experience. I get... I, I buy coffee from chains when I have to. I get that. But given the choice, I would love to go and visit an independent business, see someone's expression, you know what I mean? Someone's aesthetics, someone's vibes, someone's experience. It can be different and why wouldn't I want to explore different and new? So I, I think it's just an opportunity for discovery. Loads of like, uh, bands that tour the world-... get obsessed with coffee because it's a great way to explore a city.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JHJames Hoffmann
It's a great way to kind of find the new neighborhoods and just check places out and just have something fun and enjoyable in the day. Uh, uh, and I think coffee's a great way to explore new cities. And you talk to people who work in great coffee shops, they'll recommend you the best bars, the best restaurants. Like, that network is so easy to tap into there that it, it, it's the, the best hack. You throw me in a random city, I'll find a good coffee shop and ask the question, "Where should I eat?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JHJames Hoffmann
"Where's the best bakery?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Got a challenge for you here.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I throw you into a random city. Let's just call that city London.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I put you in front of all of the chains.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They're all the same distance from your feet.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which one does James walk towards and why?
- JHJames Hoffmann
Really difficult question. If I'm honest, if you made me buy a, a coffee drink... I assume I have to buy a coffee drink, right? Is that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah. You can't just get a muffin. (laughs)
- JHJames Hoffmann
I can't just get, like, a muffin and a s- sparkling water and run away. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
You have to get your favorite coffee from one of these chains.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Oh, that's much harder because otherwise I'd go to, like, Starbucks and get, like, a dessert in a cup and go. Because there is, you know, there's enough-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh.
- JHJames Hoffmann
... sort of fat and sugar in there that it's, it's a good time, you know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JHJames Hoffmann
Like, I, I can't deny there's a little bit of delight in, uh, a little frappuccino. Um, well, I like filtered coffee and so by and large I would typically probably end up at a Starbucks because they're one of the few that do filter coffee where it's sort of brewed as filter coffee, distinct and different from a, an Americano. Uh, and sometimes you can be mean and ask them to make a specific coffee and they have to do that for you if you ask just right. Uh, so that would be the, the lazy answer to that. Um-
Episode duration: 1:24:19
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