The Diary of a CEOThe Discipline Expert: 2,000 Years Of Research PROVES Successful People Do One Thing! - Ryan Holiday
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 29,797 words- 0:00 – 2:15
Intro
- RHRyan Holiday
I can help you get more of what you want, create the highest form of discipline, how not to care about what other people think. That's the meaning of life right there. So... Ryan Holiday. The modern-day philosopher king. Whose books have sold more than four million copies all across the world. Helping people- To live better, more meaningful lives. We live in a time where we procrastinate. It's totally screwed up. Why do we not prioritize our health? Why do we not do the stuff that we know we should do? It's 'cause we think we have forever. But the reality is, you do have a terminal diagnosis, and to live in rejection of that fact is to waste your life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, how do we change that?
- RHRyan Holiday
It takes a lot of courage, and, and it takes a lot of discipline. Discipline is the ability to do hard stuff that you don't wanna do for benefits way down the line. And there's almost no one who is successful in life who does not have that form of discipline. Like, if you can cultivate that, you're gaining freedom that a lot of people have never even tasted. But it's very hard to be disciplined as you're stuffing your face or if you feel like garbage. You need struggle, so do something physically difficult every day. A strong mind and a strong body - you have to have both.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, what do you say to those people that find themselves completely absent of apparent discipline?
- RHRyan Holiday
It's such a critical thing that you need, 'cause otherwise, somebody else determines whether you're good or not, and that's not how you wanna go through life. So, here's a set of strategies that will help you whatever life has in store for you. First would be-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. This is really, really fascinating to me. On the back end of our YouTube channel, it says that 69.9% of you that watch this channel frequently over the lifetime of this channel haven't yet hit the subscribe button. I just wanted to ask you a favor. It helps this channel so much if you choose to just subscribe. Helps us scale the guests, helps us scale the production, and it makes the show bigger. So, if I could ask you for one favor, if you've watched the show before and you've enjoyed it and you like this episode that you're currently watching, could you please hit the subscribe button? Thank you so much, and I will repay that gesture by making sure that everything we do here gets better and better and better and better. That is a promise I'm willing to make you. Do we have a deal?
- 2:15 – 4:25
My Mission to Transform People's Lives
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ryan, how would you summarize what you do and why you do it?
- RHRyan Holiday
Why I do it is much easier for me to articulate, which is that I get better for doing it. Like, we tend to think of philosophy as this thing that you consume, that you read or listen to, but it's, it's actually more of, like, a discourse. It's a conversation. And so the process of writing about and talking about, and researching the Stoics, like, it has made me a better person, uh, because I've, I've been actually... That is what Stoicism is. It's this process of, uh, reading, writing, and debating these ideas, and that's how they sort of get into your bloodstream and, and... and then hopefully, in actual situations in your life, you apply them, right? So, why I write about philosophy is, to me, much clearer. What I would define the philosophy that I talk about as, that's a little tougher. Uh, I, I write about an obscure school of ancient philosophy called Stoicism. Maybe people have heard of Marcus Aurelius or Seneca or Epictetus. It's the, those are the big three that we call them. But basically, starting in ancient Greece and making its way to ancient Rome, there was this practical philosophy for life. So, not theoretical or abstract ideas, sort of unanswerable questions or paradox. That's kind of what we tend to think of philosophy as. Stoicism was like, "How should a person live," right? What is the good life? How do I deal with my temper? How do I deal with the fact that I'm afraid of death? How... What kind of job should I have? Like, what are my obligations to other people? Philosophy, uh, in the Stoic sense was, was designed to be this sort of guide to living, and what I do is I, I, I am continuing and popularizing that conversation, which has been going on for something like 22, 23 centuries.
- 4:25 – 11:56
How Discipline Really Works & Gives Us Freedom
- RHRyan Holiday
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things you've really reframed in a lot of people's minds is the, is the word "discipline" and what it means.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because the definition of discipline that I understood before "Discipline is Destiny" was this kind of painful restraint, despite my urges, for the sake of some kinda goal that I have.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, what is discipline in your definition of the word and what that really means at its core?
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, I think it's important to note that the Stoics are talking about self-discipline, right? So, discipline is not, you know, the Marine sergeant telling everyone else what to do, how to be, right? The Stoics were talking about the virtue of self-discipline, which is you have your standards that you selected for yourself that you are living up to. It's not a weapon that you wield against other people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
Right? And I think so often when we hear "discipline," we think "disciplinarian," right, someone who's really strict. One of the beautiful lines in Meditations, Marcus Aurelius says, um, "Remember, tolerant with others, strict with yourself." And actually, that, that itself demands so much more discipline, right, to be like, "Uh, I never accept being late, for me or for other people," right? "I work hard. I judge people that are not in shape," right? "I expect long hours from everyone that works for me." You know, there's that sort of rigid, strict form of discipline, but to... I, I've, I have found in my own journey, in my own life that it actually requires more discipline to go, "This is what I expect of myself, and this is how I'm wired. This is how I operate best." And then I understand that other people, not only do I not control them-... but they have different proclivities, different ways of living, different ways of being. And that my job is to figure out how to adapt myself to them, instead of forcing them to be like me. Uh, Marcus Aurelius, it's, it's fascinating, he ha- he has this stepbrother, and there could not be more- two more different people than Marcus Aurelius and his stepbrother, Lucius Verus. And Marcus makes this remarkable decision soon after becoming emperor, which is that he names his stepbrother, this guy he has no blood relation to, he names him co-emperor. The first thing he does with unlimited power is he gives half of it away to someone with an almost opposite style of living, being, leadership. And in the beginning of Meditations, Marcus Aurelius, he talks about his brother, like, uh, at length. He doesn't call him his stepbrother, he calls him his brother, and he says, you know, "What I learned from my brother," he says, "I'm so grateful to have had this person in my life, a man whose character helped me improve my own." And the point was, I think, not only did he have to learn how to practice the virtues of acceptance, flexibility, meeting people where they are, but Marcus had to adjust himself and find the good in this person, and, and not try to make this person just like him, or be disappointed and judgmental of this person for not being just like them, right? And so, when we think of discipline, so often it's rendered as this form of rigidity. But I think the highest form of discipline is, is the ability to a- to adjust, and be flexible, and adapt. And the really great leaders, the really great people manage to get stuff out of people who are not like them, right? They don't write someone off because they don't have the same high standards as them, or they don't get that person to reach those high standards through force, right? Or bullying, or judgment, but, but through example, through inspiration, right? Through, uh, discussion. And so, I don't know, I- I'm trying to render discipline not only in that sense. But I think often also when we think of discipline, we think about it in the physical form, right? Discipline is running harder, running longer, lifting more weight, working more hours. And that physical discipline is essential, and there's almost no one who is successful in life who does not also have that form of physical discipline.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And in the introduction, you say discipline gives us freedom, which again feels like that's n- typically not what people think of discipline. We think of discipline as taking our freedom and making our lives, as you say, more rigid-
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... as you were saying then, like, more rigid and less, less choices, less optionality. But in the int- introduction of, of your book you say discipline gives us freedom.
- RHRyan Holiday
Epictetus is this slave. He's a slave in Nero's court. And imagine the contrast, this person who has no freedom, completely impoverished, their body, their work, their labor, it's all stolen from them, and then they're surrounded by not just opulence, but power, right? And ambition, and fame, right? He's surrounded by the, th- the who's who of Roman life. And Epictetus looks around and he realizes that he's freer than all these people. And he realizes he's freer than all these people because they're not in control of themselves. They might be legally free, but they're slaves to their ambition, or they're slaves to the job they've gotten, or their family name, or their urges, their temptations, right? And he realizes that if you're not in control of your aversions and your desires, right? These- he says these are the two forces of human life, what you want and what you don't want. If you're not in command of what you do, what you think, um, it really doesn't matter, you know, what your legal status is, right? You're not as free as you think you are. And I think we've all experienced that. You- you- you've met people, you've probably had them on the show, enormous bank balances, enormous followings, uh, hugely powerful jobs, and then, you know, they're like, "Sorry, I have a hard out at 11:06." You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
Or whatever, right? Like, they're running from thing to thing, their phone is constantly ringing. Like, they're sitting here, they're the powerful person, but someone's coming whispering in their- like, the assistant is actually in charge, right? Or, or, um, you know, the, the wanting th- the more, the next thing, the next accomplishment, that's what's really driving them. And, and so, you know, the stoics w- were successful and they did do things in the world. They weren't all like Epictetus. But they d- they, they understood that if you're not in charge of yourself and your life, like your emotions, your thoughts, you know, what you will do and what you won't do, it really doesn't matter what you can do. You're not free. And, and when you are in the sway of something, whether it's an addiction, uh, whether it's momentum of your career, um, whether it's just doing what everyone else is doing, like, you're not- you're not free. And so creating structure and rules, it can feel limiting and like you're giving up a freedom, but you're actually gaining a freedom that a lot of people have never even tasted.
- 11:56 – 16:54
The Role of Commitment in Success
- RHRyan Holiday
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've been thinking a lot recently about, um, the commitments we make to ourself and the importance of keeping those commitments.
- RHRyan Holiday
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I'm, I'm thinking- when I say that, I mean the small things, "I'm gonna do this."
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, as Jordan Peterson might say, like, "I'm gonna make my bed."
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Or, or it could be, "I'm gonna quit, quit drinking alcohol," um, or, "I'm gonna have vegetables instead of, I don't know, pizza."... these small commitments we make and the impact they have on the story we believe about ourselves.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I've- I was just thinking, I think it was this morning or, I was gonna write something about it, how the size of the commitments we keep to ourselves correlates to the size of the, the reward it spits out on the other end. So, if we keep big commitments to ourself, in terms of the impact on our self-esteem and our self story, the evidence we have about who we are, it has a correlative... That's not even a word, but it has an equally big output. What do you think about that? Keeping commitments to ourselves?
- RHRyan Holiday
In, uh, in The Road, the Cormac McCarthy novel, the- the- the little boy is talking to his dad. They're sitting around a campfire, and they- they've agreed to like, all sh- split everything evenly. That's sort of the system they have. And the- the dad gives the son like, a little more of the hot chocolate, like he's trying to be nice. And the- the son's upset and- and he says, "Dad," like, "you promised we would split everything evenly." And he says, "Dad, if you break the little promises, you'll break the big ones." And I think that's such a beautiful idea, not just as a parent, but as a person, right? Y- it shouldn't matter you said, "Hey, I'm gonna get up at 6:00." And then, the alarm goes off at 6:00 and then you hit snooze and you hit snooze and you go, "I don't actually have to be anywhere today. I'll just go back to sleep and wake up whenever I think." Or as a writer, like writing is not fun.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
Having written is fun. So, you're always trying to come up with reasons that you don't have to do it today. But if you build... You're building the muscle either way. You're either building the muscle that says, "I do what I say. I keep the commitments that I make," or you're building the muscle that says, "I make excuses. I don't do what I say. I can't be counted on," right? And so, when we think about discipline, it's really about like, what promises are you gonna keep? And the tricky thing is, you're keeping promises to yourself that nobody even knows that you made, right? It's not, it's not like, "Hey, you made this commi-" "If I don't write this book by this time, like, uh, you know, I- I have to do this embarrassing thing," or you know, "Then I'll- I'll retire." You know, there's not even, you're not really putting your ass on the line in that sense, but you've said to yourself you're gonna do this thing, and- and building that muscle is really important. I mean, I do think one of the critical things about having a physical practice is you are building that muscle, that muscle of like, "I told myself I'm gonna do this hard thing. Now, that hard thing is approaching, and am I gonna come up with an excuse? Am I gonna give myself a way out, or I'm gonna do it?" And then, when you do it, now you're in the middle of it, and now you're tired. And there's this voice inside of you that says, "Well, no one's watching. You can stop anytime you want. Just turn around, just go back or slow down. Um, it'd be easier if you slowed down." And the muscle or the part of you that is able to override that is a really critical muscle. Seneca says, you know, "We treat the body rigorously so that it is not disobedient to the mind." And I think about that. I have a cold plunge at my house, and there's supposedly all these health benefits to doing the cold plunge, you know? It increases your metabolism, circulation, you know, there's all these studies and they're probably true. I mean, I- I, they- they sound like they're true. I'm not a scientist. I have no idea. But to me, all of that is extra. To me, what the cold plunge is, is the, it's- it's the sitting down in the thing when I know how cold it's gonna be, and I know I'm not gonna get used to it or comfortable for at least a couple minutes, right? Like the- the cranking of the knob in the shower is the other version, or the- the shower's not warmed up and the forcing the step in before it's cold. That's the he- that's the health benefit, like that's the thing that you're getting out of it, is the ability to do hard stuff that you don't wanna do for uncertain benefits or benefits way down the line. Like, if you can cultivate that, you're golden. That's where books come from. That's where businesses come from. That's where losing weight comes from. All of it comes from the ability to do that hard thing that you don't want when the, when the rewards are not immediate or instantaneous.
- 16:54 – 19:32
Why We Make Excuses and Can't Commit to Anything
- RHRyan Holiday
- SBSteven Bartlett
And we've all got different sized muscles in that regard.
- RHRyan Holiday
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right? So, some of us can't... Maybe because we've spiraled down. We- we didn't keep a commitment to ourself, which meant that our esteem was lower-
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and then we didn't keep another commitment because of that. And now, our self-opinion or our self story of- of ourselves and our ability to do things is so in the bin now-
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that, you know, it seems like we can't keep any commitments to ourself. We're like, so self-deceptive in so many ways. Those people that have really struggled and, you know, they've tried, they've struggled, they've tried, they've struggled. You know, they bought your book because they thought, "Fuck it, maybe there's like, a sentence in here which is gonna- gonna get me to the gym." What do you say to those people that are, that find themselves completely absent of apparent discipline?
- RHRyan Holiday
I think it's really important when we- when we mess up that we don't identify with that, right? We identify with the person that we wanna be, that we know that we can be. We identify with the thing happening, and then we fall off, right? Like in- in, um, sobriety circles, they talk about like, falling off the wagon. I like the idea that the wagon is going (laughs) and you're either on the wagon or off the wagon, right? And the idea when you fall or you mess up or you make a mistake or you break that promise, like, it's still there. Like, you can get back on it any time, right? That's kind of how I think about it. So instead of going, "Oh, I'm a piece of shit. I'm spiraling. I'm- I'm worthless," it's- it's like, "No, the thing has continued on, you know? Am I gonna run and catch up to it?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
"Am I gonna start...... to build those habits again, or am I gonna, you know, write it off 'cause it- it's- it's not there anymore. Do you know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
I- I kinda try to think about it that way. It's like, just 'cause I've had a bad week, where I was over-scheduled or distracted or I was sick or whatever, and I wasn't writing, that doesn't mean all is lost.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
Like, I just have to sit down tomorrow, or better, I have to sit down now, and I just have to- to do a little bit.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
Right? And that's what starts that process again. Um, it's- it's- it's- it's not this, like, all or nothing kind of a thing. And I think when you hear people talk that way, they don't realize, but they're actually ... it's actually very convenient to be all or nothing, right? Like, that way, because it's giving you an- an out-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- RHRyan Holiday
... or an off, instead of going, "Yeah, I did. I didn't do what I was supposed to do the last seven days." But that doesn't say anything about right now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
Or that doesn't say anything about tomorrow.
- 19:32 – 27:21
A Powerful Process for Creating New Beliefs
- RHRyan Holiday
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's your thoughts on- on how beliefs are ... I th- I think so much, especially recently, about where our beliefs come from and how that impacts ... Because our confidence is a belief in ourself, and then, you know, my discipline seems somewhat connected to my beliefs, and when we think about flat-earthers and their beliefs and how you change their mind or how I change my mind about who I am. You know, I think a lot about, I think if we can understand how to create belief change, we can control much of our- our own hardware, because m- my hardware seems to be this kind of identity I've- I now believe about who Steven Bartlett is-
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and I'm just kind of following the instruction manual of that- of those- that belief set. So, how do I change that belief about who I am?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, it is funny. Like, there's- there's sort of the egotism of, like, thinking you're better than everyone.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
And then there's also the kind of egotism that happens where you're- you're like- you're just obsessed with how garbage you are.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
You know? Like, you're just- you're just thinking about yourself all the time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh, when really you should just be thinking about what you either are or aren't doing, you know? Um, my friend, uh, Austin Kleon talks about, he says, um, uh, "Do the verb instead of trying to be the noun." You know? So, like, instead of going, like, "Am I a writer? Am I not a writer?" You know, it's like, "Am I writing?" You know? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
Just do the thing. Just do the thing. Um, and, uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
You are what you do.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah. Yeah. Do the thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Makes a lot of sense, and it's funny 'cause there's a two-way relationship there. I- I don't do the things that I don't think I am.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes. Yes. If you ... I- if you- if your sense of yourself as someone who's not worth anything-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Lazy.
- RHRyan Holiday
... lazy, out of shape, ugly, you know, whatever, the Stoics talk about how if you make beautiful choices, you are beautiful, and I love that. It's like, "Hey, am I making good choices?" Like, am I ... Like, I don't think about, um, you know, is the book coming together? Is it working? Is it brilliant? I just go, like, and I try to- try to radically scale down what I'm asking of myself day to day. So, like, it's more, am I making a positive contribution today? Like, I just try to make a positive contribution every day to what I'm- w- what I'm working on. So, right now I'm editing my next book, and, you know, a couple days ago, I was really ... I wrote this new chapter, and I fixed all this stuff, and, um, today, I switched the title of a chapter from "Look for the Good in Everyone" to "Find the Good in Everyone," which is a semantic, tiny change, but also a transformative change as to what I'm actually arguing, right? And w- was yesterday's work or today's work a bigger impact on the- the project? I don't know, but I know that I made positive headway, positive contributions on both days. So, I did my job on both days. Sometimes, that's m- really visible, and you're moving a lot of stuff around, or you're creating a lot of stuff, and then other days, you're moving something a millimeter this way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You made positive progress t- today or yesterday by changing that title. Um, the- the- the next half of that sentence is like, towards my goal or towards a-
- RHRyan Holiday
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... destination or direction.
- RHRyan Holiday
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
My question there is, how does- how does one know the worthwhile direction to be making positive incremental progress in?
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, the Stoics would say that our goals have to be rooted in what we control. So, they ... Epictetus says, uh, "If you only enter contests in which winning is up to you, you will always win."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
Right? And so, when I'm working on a book, if my criteria is how many copies is it going to sell? How well is it going to be received? How happy is my publisher going to be with it? You know, um, how fast is it coming out? You know, a bunch of these things. Um, well, then, success is determined by people other than me, right? The market, the New York Times Bestseller List, my editor, my agent, random factors, you know? But if I'm measuring myself, is this getting closer to the book I set out to write? Is this the best that I can do? Is this meaningful and important to me?You know, all- the- I try, I try to, I try to root what I'm doing as much as possible in my own standards, my own sense, what's up to me, and then the commercial success, outside reception, all of that, it's nice, but it's extra.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
And- and if it's extra, then I can enjoy it. Um, if it's- if it's essential, but I don't control it, what I've really set myself up for is potential disappointment 'cause the publisher could go out of business, you know? The market could shift. You could get canceled. You know, there- who knows what could happen? And so, the more you're rooted in, "Is this your best?" I think the happier you're gonna be, and then weirdly, you- you- you end up actually doing better work because you're focusing all your energy, like, where it has impact. I've- I'm sure you've seen this where, you know, a clip that you didn't think would do well crushes-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. Of course, yeah.
- 27:21 – 35:32
Pushing Yourself & Why All Discipline Starts with the Body
- RHRyan Holiday
- SBSteven Bartlett
All self-discipline begins with the body.
- RHRyan Holiday
I think so. Uh, it's very hard to be emotionally disciplined as you're stuffing your face or if you feel like garbage, right? Like, if I'm not taking care of myself, if I'm not sleeping, if I'm deferring maintenance (laughs) , right? Then something stressful comes along, I'm just gonna magically step up and be able to handle that? No. Like, when I'm- when I am fine-tuned, and finely fueled, and I'm taking care of myself, I'm in a place where emotionally I'm much better off. Like, every morning, I try to go for a walk. I- I take my kids, and we just go outside, and we go for a walk, and I try not to bring the phone. I try not to get distracted. I just try to be present, be outside. I can tell in their behavior the days when that didn't happen (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
And I'm sure they can tell in my demeanor the days that that didn't happen, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
And so taking care of yourself physically is setting yourself up to thrive emotionally and temperamentally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did Stoicism say about that? About the importance of, you know, keeping yourself in good shape both cognitively, physically?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, there's a- a Latin expression, I won't butcher the Latin, but it's basically, like, a strong mind and a strong body, that you have to have both, you know, to just be very well read, very informed or steeped in philosophy, but to be physically weak, and- and- and this isn't- this isn't, uh, meaning that you have to be able to lift super heavy weights, but the- the idea is- is like are you active? Are you in charge? Um, are you pushing yourself, you know? That carries over and vice versa, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Should we all be pushing ourselves?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, for sure. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Physically?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, you know, having something that gets you a win every day is a very underrated philosophical hack, right? Like, um, I try to run or swim or bike every day. I'm not training for a marathon. I'm not trying to set any records. I'm trying to make a promise to myself and keep that promise, and it doesn't matter how badly the writing goes. It doesn't matter what news I just got from my agent, you know? It doesn't matter how my business is doing. It doesn't matter what the stock market's doing. It doesn't matter what mean things somebody just said about me online. Um, it doesn't matter if my wife and I are getting along, you know? It doesn't matter if the kids are... Like, if I have something that every day, if I do it-... I'm proud of myself for doing it. I got endorphins from doing it. I got healthier from doing it. You know, I- I got some time away from the screen or work or sitting in a chair from it. Like, that's hugely important, and it's so easy and it's something that's up to you, you know. Um, I've never, like, gone for a run and then, like, not made it back (laughs) you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
Um, there's- there's lots of days where I don't wanna do it, but I'm always glad that I did it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Almost all great leaders, great athletes, great philosophers have been tough.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you mean by tough?
- RHRyan Holiday
They- I mean that they've gone through something. Uh, Churchill talked about how he says every- every prophet, every sort of great leader or great person, you know, he said they're- they're of society, but then they're sent into the wilderness, right? There's some period where their work is unpopular, where their ideas aren't accepted, where they're struggling to make ends meet or there's a controversy or whatever. You know, Churchill spends, like, 33 to 39 basically out of public life, sort of persona non grata. And he says th- that it's in this wilderness, he says, where psychic dynamite is made. And his point is that it's- it's in that struggling, in not having everyone listen to you, not getting what you want, not having everything at the push of a button that forces you to really refine what you think, forces you to grow and change and adapt. You know, Steve Jobs' time in the wilderness is when he gets fired from Apple and he has to go and he starts these other companies and he has to look in the mirror and go, "How did I get fired from the company (laughs) that I started?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
You know? And- and so we all have to have that period where we are wrestling with our demons or a demon, and it's in conquering that, changing from that, that we bring back to whatever we're doing, I think, a greater sense of purpose and clarity and then, hopefully, you know, better skills.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And those moments make us confront our egos.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes. Yeah, there's an ego death in losing, being rejected, realizing you're not what you thought you were or it's not going the way that you thought it was gonna go. And, you know, ideally you wanna (laughs) learn that earlier and cheaper. You don't wanna get to the very top and have it all come crashing down and have to start over, right? There were probably many times along Steve Jobs' journey where maybe it was a- a tough meeting or an investor, you know, laid out all the issues to his face or there was an article, right? There were many moments where he could've learned that lesson in a way that was less calamitous than getting fired, getting thrown out. Um, sometimes that's what people need, you know? Sometimes- sometimes you gotta blow your life up, but it's better that- (laughs) that- it's better that you listen. I- I've said this before, but it's like, you know, life is always sort of whispering feedback to you. And if you don't listen to it, at some point, it has to hold you down and scream it in your face, and, uh, that's avoidable.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do you tune into that voice whispering?
- RHRyan Holiday
You know, it's- it's, uh, for the Stoics, it was, like, this kind of nightly or daily conversation with the self. This is the- the art of journaling. This is what Marcus Aurelius is doing in Meditations, is having a conversation with himself. The most powerful man in the world, no one could tell him what to do, but he, in the pages of what's become Meditations, is going, "Why are you like this? Why are you doing this? You know better than this. Remember what so-and-so said. Um, remember the examples of all these people that you love that have inspired you that you're trying to be like, and try to get back on the path and try to define what that path is." And I think a- a process of really holding yourself accountable somehow, whether it's a- a journal, maybe it's quarterly meetings with a coach or an advisor or a board of directors, um, maybe it's long walks where you think about these things. There's lots of ways to do it, but I think it's- it's the ability to reflect and evaluate and adjust based on this information. That's what that voice is, right? The information is there. Maybe deep down we know it, but we go, "Ah, it'll be uncomfortable or be painful. Maybe it wouldn't work." But you gotta be- you gotta be doing that work. And again, the sort of maintenance is gonna be cheaper and easier than- than the total rebuild
- 35:32 – 39:35
The Incredible Daily Process That Has Changed My Life
- RHRyan Holiday
(laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
This third point, I believe it was, of wisdom.
- RHRyan Holiday
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've been asking myself a lot recently, I sit and have conversations with some incredibly smart people, yourself included, and I- I gain so much from it.
- RHRyan Holiday
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I think to myself, what I should really be doing is writing more.
- RHRyan Holiday
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What has been the value of writing on your life, the unobvious stuff, the unobvious upsides that you've experienced from writing?
- RHRyan Holiday
Nothing clarifies what you think quite like... the practice or the exercise of writing something down. At- at Amazon, if you, like, if you wanna launch a new project or you're suggesting a change, if you wanna call a meeting, you have to- you have to write it out. You have to create a written agenda. In some case, you have to write a press release for that thing you're proposing. You have to write, like, a written pitch for...... the whole thing. And it's not so much for the communicating it to the other people, but it's also about the forcing you to go through the process of figuring out what you think and why, and the problems with it, the contradictions of it. Like, for- being forced to write it down is just so different than it just bouncing around in your head or riffing on it. There's just something very, very powerful about writing. And, you know, anyone that's sat down to write a book, I think you think, "Well, I know this better than anyone. I'm really excited about it." Then you sit down, and, and that kind of enthusiasm or interest, that can get you, like, the first, like, 10 pages, and then you just go, like, you're just spent. And then you go, "Well, what comes next? And how, and how do they build on each other?" Like, you have to have a plan. You know, you have to have a system, a structure. You have to have solved the whole thing before you can write it. You can't just figure it out on the fly, right? This stream of consciousness stuff, like, it doesn't work. And so writing is just really, really powerful. I'm a huge believer in all these other mediums, and I make content in all these other mediums. But I write the ideas first. And it, it comes from the books. The books is the synthesis of all of it, and then if I'm doing a TikTok or Instagram or a, um, an article, it's all broken out from the process of having spent many, many, many hours sitting and thinking about and trying to come up with the best way of expressing this very complicated idea. And, you know, the process now, I've been doing The Daily Stoic, so I wrote the book in 2015, so it's one page a day, so it's, I wrote 366 in one sitting. And then the day I finished the book, I said, "I'm just gonna keep going. I'm just gonna do one a day that we'll put out in the email and the podcast." And so I've been doing that every day for eight years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- RHRyan Holiday
And, uh, that's where my understanding of Stoicism... Like, obviously I knew about Stoicism, I'd written books about it before, I'd read about it a lot, but the process of having to produce and polish and edit and work on and read and, you know, record this one thing every day, one thing every day, has been transformative for me as a person. The fact that, you know, millions of people have read them now and listened to them and watched them all over the world, that's just like, like even if it was never published, that process would've transformed my life. So, in a world where, you know, you can easily in two seconds create high-res, immediately shareable video, like the ease of that is almost a trap, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
Writing is, is hard and always will be hard, and maybe that's why it's good.
- 39:35 – 41:40
What Are the Answers We're Seeking the Most?
- RHRyan Holiday
- SBSteven Bartlett
In the 800 days there, you've got a lot of data back on the types of things that resonate with people, the subject matter that seems to speak to their most popular sufferings, concerns, anxieties.
- RHRyan Holiday
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What have you, what have you learned about the things people are struggling with the most and the answers they seek the most?
- RHRyan Holiday
That's a good question. I, I don't think about that so much. I, I try to just follow where it's taking me, and, and I just try to, I'm just always trying to make stuff. But I, I, it is interesting to think that y- people have had the same problems for 2,000 years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah (laughs) .
- RHRyan Holiday
You know? Like, on its face, Marcus Aurelius' meditations should be inaccessible, impractical, incomprehensible. Like, you have the most powerful man on Earth, emperor of Rome, literally worshiped as a god, you know, head of the most powerful army, steeped in philosophy and rhetoric and all these ancient ideas, writing probably on the front lines of the battlefield, like, with the Roman army, in his tent-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
... you know, in Greek. He was writing in Greek to himself, never intending it to be published, probably mortified that it ever was published, and he's writing it for himself. Like, he's writing notes that are so specific that a lot of them we don't even know what they mean. He's like, "Remember that toll operator, you know, in insert, you know, province of the Roman Empire?" Or, "Remember that thing that so-and-so said to you?" Like, a lot of them are s- kind of notes like that. So we know he, it wasn't for you and I at all. This is, like, the m- literally the most specific book you could imagine, and somehow it is timeless and universal. Because as different and strange and surreal as his life and experience is, it's fundamentally not that different than yours and mine.
- 41:40 – 48:02
How to Deal with Hard Times in Our Lives
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do those books say about, and what does Stoicism say about how we confront unexpected crises in our lives that we are clearly not responsible for? You know, a di- a cancer diagnosis, sk- firing, get, we get fired from work, we, something else bad happens that we were not responsible for.
- RHRyan Holiday
To me, the essence of Stoicism is the idea that we don't control what has happened, but we control how we respond to what happens. And so, you know, Marcus' idea, which I have tattooed on my arm, "The obstacle is the way," you know, he says, "The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way." He's saying that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Say that again, say that again.
- RHRyan Holiday
The impediment to action advances action.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The impediment to action advances action, yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
What stands in the way becomes the way. He's saying that, you know, basically he's like, "Nothing can actually stop us from what we're trying to do 'cause we can accommodate-... and adjust, and adapt, where he says we can convert obstacles to our own purposes. Basically, what he's saying is that stuff happens, stuff we dread having happen, that we did everything in our power to prevent from happening, that's not our fault, it's totally screwed up, it's painful. All of that. But it does happen, right? And he says, he's basically saying that now that it's happened, what opportunity does it present you? And it doesn't mean, "Oh, hey, you know, your mother died. That's great for your business." (laughs) That's not what he's saying. Like, he's not saying, "Oh, this is wonderful." But he's saying that, "This tragic, terrible, frustrating, painful thing happened. There are opportunities in that for you to step up, to grow, to be there for other people, to illustrate or demonstrate the stoic virtues."
- SBSteven Bartlett
In moments of crisis, in like business, I always ref- think there's- you have a cou- couple of types of people. Say this room is on fire.
- RHRyan Holiday
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Person A, paralyzed with fear, saying nothing.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Person B screaming-
- RHRyan Holiday
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... also unhelpful, "We're gonna die." Person C knows the room is on fire, doesn't need to see the room is on fire.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Totally focused on getting out of the room.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's like a- it's a different way to handle crisis. Some people just default to practical.
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, maybe there's another person there, to extend this analogy, who helps those other people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
Right? Right? Like the ide- the idea is the thing is happening. What is it gonna draw out of you? Who are you going to be in response to that thing happening? That's what the obstacle is the way it means. It's not that it's great- (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
... that the room is on fire. It's that the room being on fire presents you a set of choices.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do I become the person who is going to survive the fire because I'm focused not on the fact that the room is on fire. I mean, I'm wa- aware of that, I'm not denying the reality of the burning room. But I'm using my energy on what I can control, which is getting myself and these other people out of the room. How can ... Is it a practice? Is it like going to the gym? Some people just seem to have it.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, childhood trauma seems to play into that as well, because some people just have a pessimistic attitude to things, and they worry and panic and-
- RHRyan Holiday
But that is kind of the practice, right? Like, what they have been through, they have been in rooms that were on fire before, different kinds of fire.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
But this isn't a new situation to them, right? And that is one of the things also that we can say to ourselves when we're going through shit, right? Whether it's this pandemic, or it's this downturn in your business, or it's this, you know, employee who stole from you, or whatever. You go, "This is practice. This is reps." Right? Like, "I am going to emerge out of the other side of this a person who has been through things like this." And if you haven't before, if this is the first time, yeah, maybe you won't handle it great, but you will h- y- you can decide to be the person who has learned from that process.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I guess the danger is, I go through it once, and it's so horrific that I avoid all circumstances or environments where I might ever go through such a thing again.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes.
- 48:02 – 49:11
The Key Questions We Should All Ask Ourselves
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was watching a video you made about, um, sort of stoic questions that are really important to ask ourselves, I guess to keep us on track to some degree.
- RHRyan Holiday
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, what kind of questions do you find yourself frequently asking yourself to help keep yourself on track?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, I mean, the big one that I ask myself the most as a parent is I just go, "Does this matter?" Like, "Why? Why? Does this thing matter?" Like, "Is this thing that I'm about to argue with them or force them to do or feel insecure about, does it actually matter?" Right? And the answer is almost always no-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
... it doesn't matter. It's made up, uh...... five more minutes is fine. Right? In the big scheme of things, I won't care about this. And so, I try to ask myself questions that give me perspective, that take me out of whatever my immediate impulse is, or insecurity is, or worry is, or argument is, and I try to get perspective. And I think that's what great questions do, is they give you perspective, different way of seeing things that you can then hopefully act on (laughs)
- 49:11 – 53:48
Relationships & Social Media Triggering Our Crisis
- RHRyan Holiday
.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do the Stoics say about, like, relationships and romantic relationships and love?
- RHRyan Holiday
I mean, what they say about them, to me, is secondary to the fact that they were also in them, right? Like, you know, it's one thing to be a philosopher, and then it's another to get married to a person who you now live with. Um, who does things that drive you crazy, and you do things that drives them crazy. And you have resentments and you have insecurities and you have compromises that you have to make, right? Um, I remember my wife said to me one time, it was a great question or a great way of thinking about it, I said, I was like, it's, you're... I- I said she was frustrating me. And she's kicked back a very Stoic idea, she said, um, uh, "A pers-" Uh, she said, "I can't frustrate you." She was basically saying, like, we're responsible for our own emotions. Like, she's doing what she's doing, and I am feeling the frustration. I can't make that her fault, right? And I, I think about that often, right? Like, uh (laughs) -
- SBSteven Bartlett
Does she weaponize Stoicism against you (laughs) ?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes, all the time. Uh, sh- Her joke is, um, uh, one of us is a Stoic and the other writes about Stoicism, um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh, she, uh, she's much more naturally these things than I am, I would say. But, you know, it's the idea that how you make it work in, not in theory (laughs) , not in your books, is, uh, it's the whole, the whole business, you know? Like, I think every person who's ever been married or in a relationship, you know, you f- You get yourself in these situations where you've decided that being right is more important than being happy (laughs) or than getting along, or...
- SBSteven Bartlett
It sounds like Twitter.
- RHRyan Holiday
... moving on. Yeah, right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah (laughs) , you're just like, "What are you doing?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
You know? You're, you're putting this thing over the relationship. Um, Twitter's its own set of philosophical issues. I just, I... You just watch people voluntarily seek out conflict-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
... and things to be upset about. Like, if they didn't see the tweet, it wouldn't bother them (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
But they s- They picked it up. They're supposed to be having dinner with someone they care about (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
They're supposed to be working, supposed to be playing with their kids. But instead, they took up the phone and they scrolled through. And the phone, which knows the things that outrage you, or the ones that get the most engagement, magically serves up the outrage, and then you are outraged. And you cannot go back to what you were doing until you let this person know, this person you've never met (laughs) , that they are wrong-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
... and you are right. You know? And that is the opposite of philosophy, happiness, the good life. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sam Harris said he deleted it from his phone for this very reason last year. He doesn't tweet anymore, he's not involved in Twitter, because he said, "When I look at the relationship I had with this device, it was just causing me unhappiness." He says, "Every bad thing, every professional crisis I've had started with Twitter."
- RHRyan Holiday
Mm-hmm. And have you ever once gone on it, or any of the apps, whether you spent five seconds or 50 minutes, and thought, "That was a great use of my time? I'm really glad I did that"? You know how you always feel a little guilty after? You go, "Ooh, that went by faster than I thought." Um, and again, I'm not saying that there's not a place for these things, that they don't do some good. I mean, maybe someone is watching a clip of this thing literally right in this instance, and that's better than, you know, us trying to s- sit here and pander to one side or incite the other. There's definitely people... Some people do it better than other people-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
... or worse than other people. But, for the most part, how do you create distance and boundaries that separate you from these things? So yeah, I don't have any of them on my phone either, and I don't know the password to (laughs) the Daily Stoic or my personal Twitter account. So, if there's something I need to say, I can talk to someone who works for me and make sure that gets out, and then maybe I can ask, you know, "Hey, how did it go?" But for the most part, um, I have enough inputs. You know what I mean? I have enough inputs. I don't need more, I don't need more random people. Uh, this is, this is the most important space that you have, you know, and how protective of it are you? And cultivating a, a stillness or a, a space, a distance from that, to me, is like the most important thing.
- 53:48 – 1:05:10
The 5 Steps to Living a Good Life
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've read so much. You write so much. You have the, the wisdom of a, of someone who is, who has lived many, many lives.
- RHRyan Holiday
That's what reading is, by the way. You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
Reading is, is maybe the only way that you can live multiple lives. Like, you think about the millions of people who have done crazy things, groundbreaking things, terrible things, and you think of all that wisdom, it's all there in books, and, you know, it's $10, sometimes (laughs) it's a dollar (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
Isn't it funny how similar the wisdom is though?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, I think the more you read, the... You, you come up with some sort of themes, it boils down Eastern and Western philosophy, kind of like a horseshoe, you know, they come, come, come together towards the, the ends. But-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are those themes? What are the themes of living a good life that I must know?
- RHRyan Holiday
Whew. First would be, let's say you f- you focus on what's in your control-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Focusing on what's-
- RHRyan Holiday
... like, what's up to you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.What does that mean in practical- in, in day-to-day life? So, someone cuts me off in traffic.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah. Uh, somebody you don't, somebody doesn't like something that you did. Uh, the weather. You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- RHRyan Holiday
How much of your energy are you spending emoting about, complaining about, worrying about things that are not up to you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what do the, is there any particular s- examples from Stoicism where ... ?
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, uh, Epictetus is like, that's our first job in life, is to separate things into two categories: Is this up to me, or is this not up to me? And it's a resource allocation issue, right? Like, if you are focusing your energy, even half of it, on stuff that's not up to you, that's half your energy that's not being focused on the stuff you can make a difference on. It's like, that'd be like putting 50% of the, the power of your car on the wheels that aren't touching the ground.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
You know? Like, you wanna put it where it's gonna get traction. That's a, the, a key thing in life, is, is this up to you or not? Number two, uh, there's something magical about water, and there's something magical about long walks.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- RHRyan Holiday
This is where we find a lot of peace, we find a lot of inspiration, we find a lot of calmness and stillness. Like, I'm not saying that taking a walk will solve all of your problems. I'm just saying that there's very few problems that are made worse by taking a walk. Same goes for jumping in the swimming pool or the ocean, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wha- what is it about those two things that you believe ... ?
- RHRyan Holiday
I mean, look, I think we evolved traveling very long distances. I mean, some of the oldest evidence of human beings in America are a set of footprints of a mother carrying and setting down, carrying and setting down a child 20,000 years ago in White San- uh, what is now White Sands, New Mexico. Like, that's just what we've been doing for as long as there have been people. And there's something about the rhythm of it, the movement of it, that slows us down, forces us to think, makes us very present. It's just magic. And I think there's a reason that every religious tradition or zen garden has a water fountain or something. You know? There's just something about (laughs) the sound of water.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so true. All of my best ideas either come usually in the gym or in the shower.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, I don't do a lot of walking 'cause I'm-
- RHRyan Holiday
You've got it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But in the gym and the shower, I seem to get m- my, my epiphany moments.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes. Taking a break from what you're doing to go do one of those things often unlocks a lot of stuff.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay. And y- y- you have that as a ritual every day?
- RHRyan Holiday
Every day, yeah.
- 1:05:10 – 1:11:46
What Stoic Wisdom Do You Struggle with the Most?
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's a- a sand timer behind me.
- RHRyan Holiday
Oh, there is?
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's- that's... Just- just there, that's-
- RHRyan Holiday
Oh, yeah, yeah. That's beautiful.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Serves to remind me of that very, very fate. Of all these things, Ryan, what is the, what is the stoic wisdom that you continually struggle with the most?
- RHRyan Holiday
Oof. Um... You know, I think people think that stoicism is about the suppression of emotion. That's what the word stoic means to people, right? Emotionless, robotic-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- RHRyan Holiday
... superhuman, et cetera. I don't think that's it at all. Um, 'cause I don't think that's possible. If you're stuffing the emotions down, if you're pretending they don't exist, they do exist, and they will eventually reveal themselves. You've just deferred it, maybe with some interest attached, right? So, for me, like, when I'm feeling something, when I'm having big feelings, as we say to my kids, "You're having big feelings. Well, why are you having those feelings? What is the cause of those feelings? What does your body feel like?" And the, uh, the practice of going, "I'm feeling this. I'm feeling this because... I'm feeling, as a result of that, an inclination to do..." And then go, "But is that a good idea (laughs) you know? Is that what I wanna do?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
Like, I've never lost my temper and then afterwards been like, "I'm so glad (laughs) I did that." You know? I'm- I always regret it. Always, right? I've never forced my kids to do something out of frustration and then been like, "Yeah, that was definitely the right call," you know? Afterwards, I'm like, "We had so much more time than I was under the impression we did," you know what I mean? It's like, like we get in this big fight to leave the house, and then we get there, and then we're like waiting in the car five minutes to go in, you know? (laughs) Or whatever, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
Like, uh, or you're so stressed about missing the flight, and then y- you, you get there or you don't get there, and it... Neither one of those things is like a matter of life and death, right? So, I think for me-... seeing stoicism as the practice of understanding the emotion, processing the emotion, and then not being a slave to that emotion is the practice of stoicism that I think I struggle with, but I think when you read the private thoughts of the stoics, you see that they were also struggling with, you know. Um, people are frustrating. Things are annoying, (laughs) you know? Things go sideways, but then how you deal with that, that's what, that's what matters.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's the control you have.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it is a practice, isn't it? 'Cause we all get frustrated with things. I get frustrated with so many things.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah. 'Cause you have high standards. You have expectations.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
Wanting things to be a certain way, needing them to be a certain way, that's like the root of so much of the tension and problems that we, we have. Uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and the question I ask is why. Why do I need them to be a certain way?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah. You don't. You go, "I need everything to be a certain way or I won't be able to do what I do." And then you're like, "Wait. How fragile am I that I can't, I can't adjust, I can't adapt?" You know what I mean? Like, you... It's because you can want it or request it or you think you should have it, that's what sets you up. Uh, Epictetus's thing is he says like, uh, "Don't want things to be a certain way. Want them to be the way that they are. That is the path to peace."
- SBSteven Bartlett
So true.
- RHRyan Holiday
And I think about... It's like, hey, like if I wake up and I go, "I need the weather to be a certain way today," well then, (laughs) there's a pretty big chance that I'm not gonna be happy. I was talking to my friend, his name's Shaka Smarty. He's the head basketball coach at Marquette. He, he lived in Texas. He was the head coach at Texas and, um, he, uh, he moved to Marquette where it's colder and I said, uh, "What's, what's the weather shift like?" I said something like, uh, "You know, are you, (laughs) are you more of a hot weather guy or a cold weather guy? You know?" And, um, he goes, "I'm a dress for the weather guy."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
And I was like, "That is stoicism right there! Dress for the weather." You know? Like, I don't care what it is. I'm good, I'm good either way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'll be prepared. Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
I'll figure it out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I love that. And the conflict I have is, the stoics must've understood the importance of detail and small things.
- RHRyan Holiday
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So-
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes.
- 1:11:46 – 1:19:04
What's the Most Important Lesson You'd Deliver to the World?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Of all the, of all the things that, you know, you've read about and, um, stoic philosophy and wisdom, if you were lying on your death bed-
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh-huh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and you had the entirety of the world as the audience-
- RHRyan Holiday
Ooh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and you could just say one thing that you believed would be as, of most benefit to that audience, to relieve them of their suffering the most, to, you know, to leave them with one last statement from Ryan Holiday, drawn from his readings of stoic wisdom and philosophy-
- RHRyan Holiday
Oof.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what might be the insight? The last Daily Stoic.
- RHRyan Holiday
What would I say as a short of last breath? Oof. We know Marcus Aurelius' sort of last words, his last words in Meditations or about sort of, "Hey man, this is the play. It only got three acts. The curtain's coming down. Did you do a good job?" You know, he started talking to himself like that. It's pretty beautiful. And then, in real life, as he's probably dying of the plague, uh, he- his friends are all around him and they're weeping and crying and he goes, "What are you crying about? Like, don't think about me." He says, "Think about you. Think about your life. Go try to, you know, do what you can with the time that you have left." Um...Maybe I'd say something like that. Like, "Hey, the whole- the one- the one benefit of people dying is the one way that they can go on living after they die, one way they can improve us and help us after they're gone, is- is the reminder of the fact that they're not here, which will be true for you at some point." And that's one of the things that the loss of people that we love can do for us. It's like, "Hey, none of us get forever. The song ends at some point, and so what did you, um, what did you do with the time that you've got? And the fact that you get tomorrow and I don't is a gift that you should not take for granted."
- SBSteven Bartlett
And to your kids?
- RHRyan Holiday
Ooh. I think I would just- I think I'd just say, you know, what I try to just say all the time, which is like, "I love you, I'm proud of you, and you're- you're good." You know what I mean? I think- I think it's- it's really easy, (clears throat) especially in today's world, for everything to feel, like, conditional, you know, that you gotta earn it. And there are things you have to earn in life, you know, but a parent's love, a sense of worth, and sort of dignity, uh, value, that's- that's- that's in- an innately, intrinsically, uh, given thing at birth, right? And so I don't know, I might- I might just take one- one extra shot at that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If this, um... If you are to be successful at that point when you're laying there on your death bed-
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... if your answer to that question that they, uh, posit in Marcus- Marcus' play... My, uh, my godson's called Marcus actually 'cause of Marcus Aurelius.
- RHRyan Holiday
Oh, wow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, but if you had have lived a successful life at that point, what would that mean for you?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah. Um, I mean, I feel- I feel lucky in that I don't wake up and think there's all this stuff that I have to do. Do you know what I mean? Like, I- I'm not saying, like, uh, I've done everything that I want to do. But I'm saying, like, with the time that I have had, I have- I have- I feel like I've checked most of the boxes of, you know, reaching the potential that I have, paying back debts or gifts that I was given, um, you know, mastered things, uh, made a positive contribution. It's like I- I- I'm- I feel I'm good. Do you know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
And so I- I wake up with this sense of living in the bonus, that it's all extra, which is nice, because I think early on in my life, I felt a lot of pressure and I was demanded or asked a lot of myself, and the ability to be like, "I did it, um, and now every extra minute or day that I get is- is extra," that's, like- that's where you wanna get, I think. (page turns)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm interrupting this broadcast with a very special announcement. Two years ago, I started writing a book based on everything I've learned from doing this podcast and meeting all of the incredible people that I've had the privilege of meeting. But also from my career in business, from running my marketing businesses, my software business, my investment fund, and everything else that I've been doing in business and life. And from this, I've created a brand-new book called The Diary of a CEO: The 33 Laws for Business & Life. If you want to build something great, or become great yourself like the guests that I've sat here and interviewed, I ask you, please, please, please read these 33 laws. The book I always should have written. If you like this podcast, this book is for you, and it is available now in the description of this podcast below. And every single day until it's out later this month, one person that pre-orders it, that takes a picture of their pre-order, uploads it to their story on Instagram or social media and tags me, will win a gold version of this book signed by me. And there's only 33 copies of those available. So pre-order it now, tag me on social media when you do, and 33 of you are gonna win a very sp- very special book. (page turns) A quick word on Huel. As you know, they're a sponsor of this podcast, and I'm an investor in the company. One of the things I've never really explained is how I came to have a relationship with Huel. One day in the office many years ago, a guy walked past called Michael, and he was wearing a Huel T-shirt. And I was really compelled by the logo. I just thought from a- a design aesthetic point of view, it was really interesting. And I asked him what that word meant and why he was wearing that T-shirt. And he said, "There's this brand called Huel, and they make food that is nutritionally complete and very, very convenient and has the planet in mind." And he, the next day, dropped off a little bottle of Huel on my desk. And from that day onwards, I completely got it, because I'm someone that cares tremendously about having a n- nutritionally complete diet, but sometimes, because of the way my life is, that falls by the wayside. So if there was a really convenient, reliable, trustworthy way for me to be nutritionally complete in an affordable way, I was all ears, especially if it's a way that is conscious of the planet. Give it a chance. Give it a shot. Let me know what you think. (page turns)
- 1:19:04 – 1:25:58
Last Guest’s Question
- SBSteven Bartlett
We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for.
- RHRyan Holiday
Ooh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the question that's been left for you is, what would you do all day...... if you didn't have to work? And I'm actually gonna give you context. First time-
- RHRyan Holiday
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I've done this. Gonna give you some context on this. I n- never tell anybody who's written the question, but this was a long conversation with someone at the helm of artificial intelligence. And at the very end of our conversation, we reached this point where he believes that in the future, in the very near future, because of artificial intelligence-
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... we're not gonna have jobs.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I've been wrestling with this idea. So what do we do? Universal bake- basic income?
- RHRyan Holiday
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do people do with their time? Do people need meaning in their lives? And where are we gonna find meaning if it's not in struggle?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So in a world of, you know, w- artificial intelligence is running everything-
- RHRyan Holiday
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what would Ryan Holiday choose to do with his time?
- RHRyan Holiday
I don't know how, how... I think it's a, it's, it's, uh... I like that I don't think I would make that many radical changes in my life. Like, I wake up early. I go outside and spend time with my kids. I take them to school. And I sit down and I write. And I write for me, you know? I write what I am interested in, what makes me better, what challenges me, what I think is philosophically interesting and provocative. And then that goes to someone else who takes it out and puts it into the world, right? Um, then I, you know, I try to do something hard, challenge myself physically. Then I go home. I spend time with my family. I putz around on my ranch that I live on, you know, do some manual labor sometimes. Um, and then, you know, I tuck my kids in, and I go to bed.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you think of ChatGPT and these large language models and how they're gonna impact writers and knowledge, and...
- RHRyan Holiday
I think-
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause I could go on there right now and say, "Give me a novel in the style of Ryan Holiday." (laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
I mean, I, I did. I did an email. I, I, I asked ChatGBT. I said, "Write a daily stoic email on the subject of change." And I said, "Write me a daily stoic email on the subject of replaceability." (laughs) And, uh, it did okay, you know? It wasn't, it wasn't as good as what I could do. Maybe in 10 years or a year, it'll be better. But I still had to edit it, I still had to refine it. And then also, I, I had the idea to have it do that, you know? The, the upside down urinal is art because someone decided to put a urinal upside down and said, "That is art." And so, you know, the intentionality is still the main thing. And then the refining and the polishing and the changing is what makes... is what the role of the human is. And so I, I, I... I haven't seen a ton of change in my life, in that I haven't been here for 80 years, but, you know, I remember when Google Books came out and a bunch of authors said, "It's not the same as going to a library and looking in the book physically. You shouldn't just be able to search books and find what you want." So, they continued to do it the way they used to do it, and us younger people took advantage of this thing that saved us time and let us do more, right? And I don't know, maybe it will replace all of us as everyone for all time has, you know, every job has been replaced in some form or another. Or, maybe it just becomes a tool in the toolkit, and I think the job of, uh, each of us is to figure out how to use it and not be used by it, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, let's hope so.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes, hope so.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Let's hope so.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I suspect you'll be right, espe- at least in the, the short and mid term anyway.
- RHRyan Holiday
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But who knows off into the future what the world looks like? Probably got more pressing issues. But, uh, but Ryan, thank you for your time.
- RHRyan Holiday
Thank you for having me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um-
- RHRyan Holiday
This was very cool.
Episode duration: 1:25:58
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