Dr. Wendy Suzuki: Walking thrice weekly cuts dementia 30%

Wendy Suzuki 0:00 In this box is a real preserved human brain named Betty. And I think you should hold it.

Steven Bartlett 0:07 Oh my God, it's wet.

Wendy Suzuki 0:09 And now we're gonna go through all the tools and tricks to make your brain as healthy as it can be. Are you ready? Wendy Suzuki, a neuroscientist and professor at New York University.

Steven Bartlett 0:20 Whose firsthand research on the brain is helping to improve memory, learning, and higher cognitive abilities in humans.

Wendy Suzuki 0:27 Let me start with exercise. All the research shows the more you exercise, the more change in your brain we notice. Every drop of sweat counted. And the best kind of exercise that you can do is...

Steven Bartlett 0:40 What about things that we consume? Food, drink, and alcohol?

Wendy Suzuki 0:43 If it's on the Mediterranean diet, go ahead.

Steven Bartlett 0:46 Coffee. And then my memory's not great.

Wendy Suzuki 0:50 Most people feel that. But there's four things that you can do to make memories stick. Number one is...

Steven Bartlett 0:56 Is it true that if we have less friends then our brain will shrink?

Wendy Suzuki 1:00 Yes, loneliness damages the brain.

Steven Bartlett 1:02 Can you see if someone's in love in the brain?

Wendy Suzuki 1:04 Yes, in the side here a lot of the reward areas are activated.

Steven Bartlett 1:08 Doesn't that mean then that if we don't fall in love, the love part of my brain gets smaller? And would that make it more difficult to love in the future?

Wendy Suzuki 1:14 That's a great question, so...

Steven Bartlett 1:17 Wendy, do you have any brain routines?

Wendy Suzuki 1:19 Absolutely. So every morning I like to... Oh, and then I do the most powerful tool that you can do to protect your brain from aging and neurodegenerative disease states, which is...

Steven Bartlett 1:32 We've just hit six million subscribers on The Diary of a CEO, so me and my team would like to do something we've never done before as a little thank you, and we're calling it The Diary of a CEO Subscriber Raffle, and here is how it works. Every episode this month, we're going to pick three current subscribers at random, and we'll send one of you a 1,000 pound voucher, one of you tickets to come and watch The Diary of a CEO behind the scenes live with our team, and one of you will have a ten minute phone call with me to discuss whatever you want to talk about. If you're a subscriber, you're in the raffle. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to do something that me and my team love doing so much. It is the greatest honor of my lifetime, and I hope that, I hope that continues, uh, off into the future. Let's get to the episode.

Steven Bartlett 2:18 You just said to me that much of your work is focused on making sure people have big, fat, fluffy brains.

Wendy Suzuki 2:24 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 2:25 Why does that matter?

Wendy Suzuki 2:27 It matters because a big, fat, fluffy brain is a healthy brain, and my whole first book, Healthy Brain, Happy Life, was about how I learned to use all the tools and tricks and magic of neuroscience and psychology to make my brain work better. And I so needed it at that moment. My life got better. I got happier. It is a pathway to a happy life, I think, having a very healthy, big, fat, fluffy brain.

Steven Bartlett 2:58 Do you think people appreciate the importance of their brain?

Wendy Suzuki 3:00 No. I think they ignore it all the time. And I think that is part of my, uh, part of my message to everybody, that, that the human brain, that is the one in your head right now, is the most complex structure known to humankind. Not Einstein's brain, not Marie Curie's brain, but the one in your head. And when you think about that, it gives you more of a self-appreciation of all of the computations that is taking for me to see you and appreciate your face and be able to remember your face next time I see you when I go to my Diary of a CEO podcast and, and choose an episode. All of that is, is such a complex structure. Um, you start to appreciate your own kind of brain functioning more. I think that's a very important thing to do.

Steven Bartlett 3:52 Why don't we appreciate our brains? 'Cause we appreciate a lot of other things.

Wendy Suzuki 3:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:56 We spend a lot of time on our, like, our muscles.

Wendy Suzuki 3:58 Yeah, our abs.

Steven Bartlett 3:59 Yeah.

Wendy Suzuki 4:00 I think that that's a great analogy, and part of my goal is to kind of shift the focus from focusing on certain body parts to focusing on what our brain is doing for us, what it can do for us, and what we can do to change our environments to get to that big, fat, fluffy brain, to get it healthy, to get it happy, to get it growing.

Steven Bartlett 4:23 If I achieve a big, fat, fluffy brain, how would my life be different? I'm saying me, Steve Barlow.

Wendy Suzuki 4:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:30 I'm, I'm a podcaster, I'm an, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm, I'm-

Wendy Suzuki 4:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:32 ... in relationships, I've got-

Wendy Suzuki 4:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:33 ... friends, girlfriend, family.

Wendy Suzuki 4:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:36 How would I show up differently if I was able to make my brain big, fat and fluffy?

Wendy Suzuki 4:40 Yeah. So, uh, let me start with the two areas that we know respond really, really well to things like meditation and exercise. Those two brain areas are the hippocampus, critical for long-term memory, your ability to form and retain new long-term memories and for facts and events, and the second brain area is your prefrontal cortex right behind your forehead, critical for your ability to shift and focus attention, um, it's important for your personality, for decision-making. So-

Steven Bartlett 5:08 Can you show me on there? There's a, you brought a, a, a-

Wendy Suzuki 5:10 Absolutely, I brought a human brain.

Steven Bartlett 5:12 You, you have-

Wendy Suzuki 5:12 Let's bring that.

Steven Bartlett 5:13 You have a model of a brain as well.

Wendy Suzuki 5:14 I have a model of the brain. Okay, let's start with the model of the brain.

Steven Bartlett 5:16 Okay.

Wendy Suzuki 5:19 So here is a model of the human brain. So there's a front part and a back part. This front part is right behind our forehead. That's the prefrontal cortex, critical for the ability to shift and focus attention. Also, a part of the brain that is very responsive to what you bring into your life. Exercise actually really helps the prefrontal cortex. Meditation helps area 10 of the prefrontal cortex, which is right in the very front, right here. The second brain area that you will benefit from when you make your brain big and fat and fluffy is a structure called the hippocampus, which is, which is very deep in this lobe.... deep in this lobe right here, which is the temporal lobe. The hippocampus, hippocampus means sea horse-

Steven Bartlett 6:08 (laughs) .

Wendy Suzuki 6:08 ... and the hippocampus is critical for your ability to sh- to form and retain new long-term memories for facts and events. You have one on the right, and you have one on the left. So, for you, superstar podcaster, what you need to do, you need to remember all the details of that guest that you're sitting in front of. You need to be able to focus. "What did they say? What do I wanna, uh, ask next? And how do I want to come back to those things?" That is a combination of what your prefrontal cortex is doing for you and your hippocampus is doing for you. So, I submit that you, when you do these things that we know from neuroscience, it are going to make your prefrontal cortex and your hippocampus big and fat and fluffy. You will be better at doing your job as a podcaster. I am better as a dean and a professor of neural science. And, and teaching in class, for example, is where I'm using my prefrontal cortex and my hippocampus the most. Most of us would benefit from these things that make our brains big and fat

Wendy Suzuki 7:09 and fluffy.

Steven Bartlett 7:09 Was there a point in your life where you had a personal epiphany or revelation about the brain that made you so passionate about the subject?

Wendy Suzuki 7:17 Y- absolutely, absolutely. So, this story starts when I was in the middle of getting tenure, um, at New York University. So, it takes six years. Uh, you have six years to pu- prove yourself as a scientist and do something groundbreaking. And if you don't, you're fired. So, no big deal. No pressure there. And I decided to only just work, work, work, work. I didn't have a lot of social interactions. I was just working and, uh, just, just threw myself into work. And, uh, I was getting burnt out, and, um, I decided to go on a river rafting trip to Peru by myself 'cause I had no friends. So, I go on the river rafting trip and it's great. It's beautiful. We're river rafting. We're, we're camping on Aztec burial sites and it is just spectacular. Um, but I realized that I'm the weakest person on this trip, and when I got back, after this wonderful, you know, two weeks in Peru, I said, "I never wanna feel like the weakest person on a trip like that again." And it was so great to, to be moving and to be exercising, so I decided, "I'm gonna go to the gym, and I'm gonna continue this physical activity at the gym." And somehow it stuck. I had, I had let myself go, not no exercise at all, and when I started going to the gym regularly, I noticed that that great mood that I found in Peru every day during the river rafting trip stayed with me. I think everybody in my lab loved it when I was going to the gym. And I started to notice, not only I got f- stronger, I was feeling better, that mood boost that I got from physical activity was so powerful. But then one day, this, you asked me about this revelation I had, it was one day I was sitting in my office writing a grant, which is usually something that I have to do very regularly, but usually something that I'm pulling my hair out. It's so hard. It's very competitive. I'm competing against Nobel laureates for the same pot of money. And I had this thought that went through my mind, which was, "Gosh, writing went well today." I- I'd never had that thought before ever in my... I'd been there for five years at- at NYU writing grants. And so, um, I, um, I thought, "Oh, maybe, maybe I'm just having a good day. I'm feeling good." But I realized that the, um, the writing seemed to have been getting a little bit better over time. I had noticed it a little bit, if I think about it, and the only thing I had changed in my life was regular physical activity inspired by that trip to Peru. And so, I'm a neuroscientist. I went to the literature and I asked, "Well, what do we know right now about what exactly exercise is doing?" And it showed at that moment in time, about 10, 15 years ago, that exercise can improve your mood. Exercise actually makes your memory work better, and exercise improves the function of your prefrontal cortex. And I thought, "Wow, that, that is amazing." But the last part of the story was that when all of this was going on, this was after this day of realizing, "Gosh, something's, you know, my writing is better and,

Wendy Suzuki 10:37 um, maybe it's exercise." Um, I got a call from my mom, who said that my father wasn't feeling well and that he had gotten lost driving back from the coffee shop that he drove to every day, every afternoon for the last 20 years. And the hippocampus, that structure critical for memory, is particularly important for spatial memory. And as an expert in the hippocampus, as I am, I knew that that was a telltale sign of dementia and maybe Alzheimer's dementia. But as I talked to my father and, of course, we went and got him a neurology appointment, I saw that everything that seemed to be improving in me, that is memory, focus, completely and very, very suddenly, uh, diminished in him. His memory was terrible. He couldn't focus. He was also very depressed because he could notice how poor his memory was. And I think those things together, what I was noticing in myself about the physical effects of, uh, the effects of physical activity on my own brain function and seeing my father go through which wa-, uh, what was a really precipitous loss of his cognitive functions that turned out to be Alzheimer's dementia made me think that the power of physical activity needed to be explored more deeply.... and by me. I, I was waking up in the morning, thinking about, "What can we, what can I do to better understand how physical activity could be used, not just for me, for my students? Can they study better? Can they learn better?" Can it help, maybe not my father, I wasn't sure whether exercise could help my father at that point, but as people age. That was the revelation that I had that made me actually switch my research focus from memory function to understanding the effects of physical activity on the

Wendy Suzuki 12:37 brain.

Steven Bartlett 12:37 All of this is rooted in a fact that was once not considered a fact, which is the idea that our brains can change shape.

Wendy Suzuki 12:46 Yes. Yeah. Abso-

Steven Bartlett 12:47 So, this idea of brain plasticity. I only really learned about this a couple years ago.

Wendy Suzuki 12:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:50 'Cause I think I, like many people, didn't realize that, like muscles, my brain changes shape based on what I do.

Wendy Suzuki 12:56 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 12:57 And also what I consume.

Wendy Suzuki 12:59 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 12:59 I guess.

Wendy Suzuki 13:00 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 13:01 What is the evidence or the studies that we have that proves our brains do change shape?

Wendy Suzuki 13:04 Yeah. That's such a great question and, uh, it takes me back to the first day of my freshman year at UC Berkeley. When I walked into the classroom, I didn't know it at the time, but the classroom of the professor that discovered brain plasticity. Her name is Marian Diamond, and she, uh, was the very first female PhD in neuroanatomy that UC Berkeley ever gave. Um, I walked into her classroom in the '80s when I went to college, but she discovered this in the late 1960s, um, when it was thought, as you said, that the adult brain can't change at all. There's absolutely no evidence for it. And that was true at the time. She thought, "Hmm, I don't think that's true. Let's, let's do a simple experiment. Let's try and, um, uh, look at the effects in two randomly grouped set of rats, one that lives in what they would consider an enriched environment." What would be an enriched environment? Well, for her, it was a rat cage full of toys that got changed out all the time, lots of other rats to play with, and, um, lots of, lots of activity. I think of it as the Disney World of rat cages. And she compared the brains of those rats to rats that she raised in kind of a shoebox, a smaller environment. They got free food and water, all the food and water they could eat and drink, but maybe only one other rat and no toys. Now, if the adult rat... They were all the same age, they were adults. If the, if the adult brain didn't change, then there should be absolutely no difference between the brains raised in Disney World and the brains raised in the shoebox. But she found that the r- the brains of those rats raised in the Disney World of rat cages, the outer covering of the brain, the outside of the brain here, uh, I'm pointing to the outside of this brain model here, called the cortex, it was actually thicker. She was, she was a neuroanatomist, and she showed that the thickness of this outer covering actually grew. What does that mean? There were more synaptic connections there in, not in the whole brain, in certain brain areas that made sense. The visual cortical area, there was much more visual stimulation in the Disney World of rat cages. The motor areas were thicker. The somatosensory, the touch areas were thicker because they were interacting in a much more complex way with their touch system. And that was the first demonstration the adult brain could change, and that it would actually make the cortex of the brain grow. And now we know, what is it about the Disney World of rat cages, you know? Um, is it the toys? Should we all be playing with toys? Later studies showed that you get almost identical effects just by giving rats a running wheel. Physical activity is doing all of that, has the potential to change all of that in the rodent brain and now in the human brain.

Steven Bartlett 16:01 Didn't they find something similar with, um, London taxi drivers?

Wendy Suzuki 16:04 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 16:04 I always hear this.

Wendy Suzuki 16:05 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 16:06 I s- I thought it was like a... Wasn't sure if it was true or like a rumor, but-

Wendy Suzuki 16:09 Yes. No, no, no. It's absolutely true. That is a different form of brain plasticity, which is something that we all do, all my students do, hopefully very well, which is learning. So, can learning the streets of London, which are, I can't remember the, the, the number of different streets that London taxicab drivers have to learn to pass the famous test called The Knowledge. But I do remember that it takes them four years to study for this test. It is intense, uh, um, knowledge. You have to learn all the lawful ways to get from all the big landmarks to be a certified London taxicab driver, and what, uh, my colleague Eno- Eleanor Maguire, a professor of neuroscience at University College London, did is she followed wannabe London taxicab drivers during their four years of The Knowledge, this test for London taxicab drivers, knowing that half of them were gonna fail. They're, they're, th- they were not gonna make it. And so, she tested them at the beginning, and asked, "How is your memory? Uh, and how big is your hippocampus?" Identical for all, all of the, uh, wannabe London taxicab drivers before they started.

Steven Bartlett 17:23 She scanned their brains.

Wendy Suzuki 17:24 Yeah, she scanned their brains.

Steven Bartlett 17:26 Okay.

Wendy Suzuki 17:26 And she tested their memory.

Steven Bartlett 17:27 Okay.

Wendy Suzuki 17:28 Behaviorally. Then they go through, half of 'em drop out, they don't become London taxicab drivers, and half of 'em become certified London taxicab drivers after successfully learning all of this. Now, let's see. How big is your hippocampus and how good is your memory? The people that passed the test and became London taxicab drivers, the posterior part of their hippocampus, which is the part we know is important for with posterior is ba- uh, towards the back of the head. The posterior part of the hippocampus, which is kind of a cigar-shaped structure that goes from the front part of the brain to the back part of the brain, that back part of the brain was significantly bigger in those London, successful London taxicab drivers compared to the failed...... London taxi cab drivers. And the memory of the successful London taxi cab drivers were now superior to the memory of the wannabe London taxi cab drivers that failed. So, that is an example of how intense learning in a particular part of the brain, um, uh, we know the posterior hippocampus is absolutely involved in spatial learning. Uh, that can change the actual structure and the function.

Steven Bartlett 18:43 How much of a difference can we make? I'm 31 years old now.

Wendy Suzuki 18:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:48 So, if I got serious about my brain health-

Wendy Suzuki 18:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:52 ... how much of a difference could I realistically see? You know, I'm trying to figure out if it's worth it.

Wendy Suzuki 18:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:57 If it's worth caring about my brain.

Wendy Suzuki 19:00 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 19:00 Is, is there any evidence within the literature, within studies that have been done that show if I start now, even though I'm like 30, 31 years old, my life will be different in the future-

Wendy Suzuki 19:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:11 ... in the areas that I care about profoundly, if I start caring about my brain?

Wendy Suzuki 19:16 Let me be very, very, um, um, concrete here. The answer is absolutely yes. First, I'm gonna give you results of a study in people that are 65 and older. So, studied people that are 65 and older, and asked, "What is the probability of getting dementia in the next six years, depending on the level of activity that you have?" Just right now.

Steven Bartlett 19:40 Physical activity?

Wendy Suzuki 19:41 Physical activity. And they measured it in how many walks you take per week. And if you took three walks a week or more, you were 30% less likely to develop dementia in the next five years. So, ooh, 30%, uh, less likely to develop dementia. My father passed away of Alzheimer's dementia. That makes me sit up and take notice. But the, but the thing that should make you, as a 31-year-old, uh, really sit up and take notice is the larger correlations that show that the longer you have regular physical activity in your life, the longer you're able to stave off dementia, the more active you are over your lifetime. Um, that first study shows that it's never too late to start. You can start walking regularly, which is doable when you're, uh, uh, perhaps at that age. But the longer you stay active, the bigger and fatter and fluffier your brain will be. Why does that make sense? So, one key piece of information that I haven't told you yet is that we know that physical activity is releasing a whol- every single time you move your body, you're releasing a whole bunch of neurochemicals in your brain. Some of them make you just feel good. Serotonin, dopamine, noradrenaline, endorphins. Yeah, I feel good. If I go out for a walk, I feel better than if I had been sitting here for eight hours. But the other thing that gets released every single time is growth factors. I like to call it a bubble bath of neurochemicals that happens every time you move your body. What that growth factor does is it goes directly into your hippocampus, and it helps brand new cells grow in your hippocampus. Hippocampus is only one of two total brain areas where new cells can grow. That's not the same as synapses, which are connections in the cells that are already there. But the hippocampus can grow new cells, and this is really important because many people know that the hippocampus is attacked first in Alzheimer's dementia. And so, exercise is not going to eliminate that disease state, but if you start with a huge fluffy hippocampus, it's gonna take that disease that much longer to actually damage enough of your hippocampus so that you start seeing those telltale signs of memory impairment that comes with, uh, Alzheimer's disease and, and dementia in general. Same thing with the prefrontal cortex. Your prefrontal cortex can grow with, uh, physical activity. That's not neurons, but new synapses can grow. Age and neurodegenerative disease states can damage cells, but also take away synapses.

Steven Bartlett 22:28 I've got two questions on that.

Wendy Suzuki 22:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:30 So, the first is about dementia and Alzheimer's. Do we know what's causing it?

Wendy Suzuki 22:33 No.

Steven Bartlett 22:34 We still don't know?

Wendy Suzuki 22:35 Nope. And there's not good drugs, unfortunately, right now.

Steven Bartlett 22:42 There's a lot of links to lifestyle choices though, right?

Wendy Suzuki 22:44 Yes, absolutely. And so, of course, from based on what I just said, my number one most powerful tool that you can do to protect your brain from aging and neurodegenerative disease states is start walking. Why do I start with that? Because everybody can walk. You don't need to buy any new fitness outfits. Just go out and walk more. And then they say, "Oh, well, do I have to become a marathon runner?" That could help too. But everybody can walk. And from that study that I mentioned in the 65-year-olds, six- 30% reduction in, um, the probability of getting Alzheimer's with just walking.

Steven Bartlett 23:24 You said that if I go and start walking and I do exercise, my prefrontal cortex will grow, which is the decision-making center, right?

Wendy Suzuki 23:32 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 23:33 So, does that mean then that if I am somebody who is very sedentary, I don't do much physical activity-

Wendy Suzuki 23:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:40 ... that my decision-making will be worse compared to what it could be with the same person if they were active?

Wendy Suzuki 23:45 Yes. I mean, that, there is that potential. Brain plasticity and the neuroscience of brain plasticity tells us that, absolutely, with physical activity, uh, you have great potential to improve the function of your prefrontal cortex. And I- I must specify a little bit. Uh, the main function that is, um, that has been shown to be particularly sensitive to regular physical activity is, um, shifting and focusing your attention. So, being able to, um, listen to me while you might be paying attention to, uh, the AV guy that might be telling you something right now. So, to be able to do that effectively, uh, that, that is one of the things

Wendy Suzuki 24:24 that we know is helped with regular physical activity.

Steven Bartlett 24:26 Focus and attention-

Wendy Suzuki 24:27 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 24:27 ... that kind of thing. Okay. You talked about memory as well. Is that-

Wendy Suzuki 24:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:30 Does that exist in the prefrontal cortex as well?

Wendy Suzuki 24:32 Uh, there's a form of memory, working memory-

Steven Bartlett 24:34 Okay.

Wendy Suzuki 24:34 ... uh, which is kind of scratch pad memory. It's a memory that, um, when we used to have to remember telephone numbers, that, that, the ability to remember a seven-digit-... at least in the United States, telephone number. It's different from long term memory formation, which is memory for facts and events, uh, that is dependent on the hippocampus.

Steven Bartlett 24:53 I feel like my memory's not great.

Wendy Suzuki 24:55 Most people feel that (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 24:57 Why is my memory not as good as other people? Because I, I noticed this when I-

Wendy Suzuki 25:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:04 ... I was with my friend in, um, Thailand many years ago, I think I was 21 years old, and we could like leave the house and go on our little mopeds for about an hour-

Wendy Suzuki 25:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:12 ... and he could navigate us back home-

Wendy Suzuki 25:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:15 ... without needing Sat Nav or Google Maps, and if I go three minutes down the street, I'm lost.

Wendy Suzuki 25:20 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:20 And I always wondered why that was. Is it-

Wendy Suzuki 25:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:22 And then even with names and stuff, I would always... He was my best friend, he still is one of my best friends, for, for seven, eight years, we ran a business together and he would remember every name of every person-

Wendy Suzuki 25:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:32 ... and I couldn't.

Wendy Suzuki 25:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:33 I wouldn't. And so I'd always turn to him and say, "What was that person's name again? What's that..." You know? And I always wondered why my memory w- he seemed to have this incredible memory and mine seems to be pretty rudimentary.

Wendy Suzuki 25:44 I would argue that, um, yeah, everybody has parts of their memory that aren't as good as they want, but also other forms of memory that they're very good at. So, I would guess, I've only just met you today, that your memory for stories and storytelling and story progress is excellent, because it has to be for the job that you do. I bet you it's much better than your friend that can navigate back. Not everybody has a perfect memory in all the different dimensions, and, and it's like our personalities. Some people have a wonderful sense of humor and others don't. Um, it is about how our brains are wired, which is defined both by nature and nurture, our genes, and you know, if I, if I went to, uh, standup comedy class, I would probably get funnier, but, um, uh, but there's probably a limit to my funniness compared to

Wendy Suzuki 26:35 other people.

Steven Bartlett 26:35 So there's different types of memory?

Wendy Suzuki 26:37 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 26:38 In your book, you talk about there being, I think is it three different types of memory in total?

Wendy Suzuki 26:43 So-

Steven Bartlett 26:43 That are formed in the hippocampus.

Wendy Suzuki 26:45 Uh, there's lots of different names for forms of memory in the hippocampus. Um, but I like to describe it as the hippocampus is critical for our memory for facts and, and events. Um, also called declarative memory or cognitive memory. Uh, another form of memory that's dependent on a completely different structure is motor memory. L- the memory that you, uh, use to learn how to play tennis or pickleball or whatever you're playing. And it's not declarative. I can't declare how I do a backhand in, in, in tennis, but it is in your motor functions and, and this is dependent on the striatum and, uh, a motor-related structure. And then there's the prefrontal cortex, dependent on that working memory or scratch pad memory, keeping things in mind, so, um, you and I are tr- both trying to remember what we've just said, so we can, we can link it to things that we might say in the future.

Steven Bartlett 27:35 Uh, well, one of the things that I found really interesting, both as a marketeer, but also as a podcaster and as someone that's making a lot of content and trying to get people's attention-

Wendy Suzuki 27:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:44 ... was, as I was reading through your work, it became quite clear to me that there's an- a bit of an overlap between memory and attention in, in many respects-

Wendy Suzuki 27:52 Yes. Absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 27:52 ... because you, you were talking about these four things that make facts or events memorable-

Wendy Suzuki 27:56 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 27:56 ... and many of those things are things that I think about as a marketeer when I'm trying to get someone to, you know, engage with something, click on something, buy something.

Wendy Suzuki 28:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:05 What are those four things?

Wendy Suzuki 28:06 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 28:06 Can we g- go through them?

Wendy Suzuki 28:08 Absolutely. So, I like to say there are four things that make memories stick. And this is after 25 or 30 years studying the hippocampus and, and how memories work. Number one is obvious, repetition.

Steven Bartlett 28:21 Okay.

Wendy Suzuki 28:22 You remember things with repetition. Number two, not as obvious, association. The hippocampus is an associative structure. It associates one thing with the other. Uh, for example, your name and your face. So I'm, you know, I just met you, and I'm, I, I will remember your name and your face now, but it also helps you remember things like who's married to each other, associating the husband with the wife. Uh, have you heard of the memory palace?

Steven Bartlett 28:49 Uh, yes.

Wendy Suzuki 28:50 Yes. So this is a technique that has been used for many, many ages, uh, to help remember things, and it is a strategy where you picture a spatial location that's very familiar to you, like your childhood home. When you need to remember a list of items, you take an imaginative walk through that very familiar environment and place those items in particular locations in the environment. That is associating something really familiar, your childhood home, you know every corner of it, with the new thing you need to remember. And that works, uh, and has worked for memory champions for many years because the hippocampus associates things together. That's number two, association. Number three is novelty. We remember novel things. I've never been to this particular studio ever before in my 26 years in New York and Brooklyn, so this is a novel thing and I reme- I will remember coming here, uh, to do this podcast with you. Our brains, and this is where it interacts with the attention system, our attention system focuses on things that are novel. Why? Because it could be dangerous. If I've seen things over and over and over again, I don't notice them. They go into the background. It's not gonna hurt me any, you know, it- it's not, it's not gonna cause me any danger.

Steven Bartlett 30:15 Cliche. That's why cliche doesn't work in marketing.

Wendy Suzuki 30:17 Exactly. Yeah. And so, but something novel, ooh, that really, uh, uh, perks people up. I use that in my teaching all the time. Surprise students, uh, with, uh, an element of what you want them to learn and they will remember it better. But the fourth one, which is so powerful, and we know it intuitively, we understand this intuitively, is emotional resonance makes things more memorable. We remember the happiest and the saddest things in our lives because that emotional resonance is... Solidifies those memories. Where does that come from? It comes from a structure called the amygdala that sits right in front of the hippocampus, right in the front of the temporal lobe right here, and the hippocampus is right behind it. Amygdala mean- means almond. It's an almond-shaped structure and it sits right in front of, um, the kind of tube-shaped structure that is the hippocampus behind it, and the amygdala is kind of infusing, uh, the hippocampus and kind of giving a, uh, giving it a little jolt when it's emotionally resonant, either really happy or really sad.

Steven Bartlett 31:28 You brought with you, what you've told me is a real human brain.

Wendy Suzuki 31:33 Yes, I did.

Steven Bartlett 31:34 Now, I'm not sure if you're just winding me up, but we're talking here about novelty and surprise, and-

Wendy Suzuki 31:39 That's right.

Steven Bartlett 31:40 ... things you'll never forget and emotional resonance.

Wendy Suzuki 31:42 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 31:42 And when you were saying that, I was conscious that over in the corner of the room, it appears that there's a human brain in a box. So, Jackie is just bringing the human brain in.

Wendy Suzuki 31:50 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 31:51 I've never seen a human brain before.

Wendy Suzuki 31:53 You've never seen... That's why I brought you gloves, so that you can hold it, if you like.

Steven Bartlett 31:57 Uh...

Wendy Suzuki 31:58 If you like.

Steven Bartlett 31:59 Do you have permission to... If there is a human brain in this box and you're not winding me up, did you have to get permission from the owner-

Wendy Suzuki 32:06 Uh-huh.

Steven Bartlett 32:06 ... of that brain? (laughs)

Wendy Suzuki 32:07 So, um, this was purchased, uh, lawfully, um, by my department, the Center for Neural Science at New York University, so it is lawfully ours to use as a teaching tool. And it does bring enormous novelty to any situation that I go into, and makes people really think about their brain in a new way, which is why I bring it.

Steven Bartlett 32:32 What is in that box?

Wendy Suzuki 32:34 In this box is a real preserved human brain named Betty.

Steven Bartlett 32:41 Was the person who used to own that brain called Betty?

Wendy Suzuki 32:46 No. We don't know-

Steven Bartlett 32:47 You don't know?

Wendy Suzuki 32:47 ... the name of the person.

Steven Bartlett 32:48 Okay.

Wendy Suzuki 32:49 I named this brain Betty, so I d-

Steven Bartlett 32:51 Can you t- can you tell if it's a man or a woman?

Wendy Suzuki 32:53 No, I can't.

Steven Bartlett 32:54 Oh. Man, men and women brains not different at all?

Wendy Suzuki 32:56 They are, but in very, very subtle ways that we wouldn't be able to tell just looking at the, the outside of the brain like this.

Steven Bartlett 33:03 Okay, I'm

Steven Bartlett 33:04 ready.

Wendy Suzuki 33:04 Are you ready?

Steven Bartlett 33:05 I think so.

Wendy Suzuki 33:07 Okay, so I'm gonna open the hat box.

Steven Bartlett 33:13 No way is that a real-

Wendy Suzuki 33:14 And I'm gonna pull out...

Steven Bartlett 33:16 Are you joking? Is that really a brain?

Wendy Suzuki 33:18 It is a real preserved human brain. There it is. Frontal lobe, frontal lobe, occipital lobe for vision, occipital lobe back there. And in this brain, I don't know if you can see it from over there, if I pull apart the two hemispheres, you can see how deep the, the folds of the brain... The surface is folded in that deep into the brain, which expands the surface area of the outside of the cortex. The rat cortex is flat, there's no folds. Humans and elephants and dolphins have lots of folds. They have much higher capacity for computation because of the folds that you see in this brain.

Steven Bartlett 34:12 It's smaller than I was expecting.

Wendy Suzuki 34:13 Really? Half the people say it's smaller, half the people say, "Wow, that's, that's enormous."

Steven Bartlett 34:18 Interesting. Well, is that the, the color of a brain?

Wendy Suzuki 34:21 The color of the brain is darker than the real brain if we opened up my head right now, um, because of the formaldehyde, the, the preservative chemical that this has been sitting in for at least 26 years. This brain has been in my department for ev- ever since I got here 26 years ago.

Steven Bartlett 34:40 I feel like I probably should hold it.

Wendy Suzuki 34:42 I think you should hold it.

Steven Bartlett 34:49 Oh my God. It's wet.

Wendy Suzuki 34:52 Yes. So, I mean, that, that has, that defined this person's whole life, how they saw, felt, smelled, uh, heard, and thought about the world, just right there in your one hand, in your right hand.

Steven Bartlett 35:12 It's crazy to think that this little thing is... Oh, it's different underneath.

Wendy Suzuki 35:16 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 35:18 It's crazy to think that this little thing, this little...

Wendy Suzuki 35:22 That's the start of the spinal cord right there-

Steven Bartlett 35:24 Oh, okay.

Wendy Suzuki 35:24 ... that you're pointing at.

Steven Bartlett 35:26 And this stuff at the, underneath, at the back, this-

Wendy Suzuki 35:28 That is the cerebellum, a brain structure critical for fine motor movement. Um, so we wouldn't be able to walk smoothly if you have damage in your cerebellum.

Steven Bartlett 35:39 Isn't it interesting that, like, everything, as you say, everything this person worried about, every thought, every memory, every relationship, all of their education, the school they went to, the university, everything they saw and remembered and all of their trauma-

Wendy Suzuki 35:56 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 35:57 ... and their anxiety and maybe their depression, everything they went through, even their last days before they died, is, like, captured in this little ball of, like, tofu-

Wendy Suzuki 36:10 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 36:10 ... sits in my hand, an entire human being's existence.

Wendy Suzuki 36:14 It's true.

Steven Bartlett 36:15 What they watched on TV, their favorite movie, their favorite number, color, everything is in this tiny little ball of tofu.

Wendy Suzuki 36:21 (laughs) It's true.

Steven Bartlett 36:26 Crazy. Oh gosh.

Wendy Suzuki 36:28 It is amazing. And actually, in real life, firm tofu is the consistency of, of the brain. I often bring in a, um, you know, a block of, of, uh, firm tofu, um, when I demo this for students, in addition to Betty.

Steven Bartlett 36:45 Do you remember the first time you saw a human brain?

Wendy Suzuki 36:48 I do.

Steven Bartlett 36:49 Did it change how you think about your own brain?

Wendy Suzuki 36:52 It changed my life because I was like, "I wanna study that. That is the coolest thing that I've ever seen in my whole life, and I wanna study that and I wanna be just like her." And, um, and so it, it really, like, okay, now I, I decided this is what I wanna do. And it was, it was, it was life-changing.

Steven Bartlett 37:19 I say that because we... you know, at the start of this conversation, we said that most of us don't appreciate our brain, a lot of people don't even realize it's there, but-

Wendy Suzuki 37:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:25 ... the minute I had a brain scan one day-

Wendy Suzuki 37:27 Mmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:27 ... and that brain scan...... really changed my life, because seeing my own brain for the first time-

Wendy Suzuki 37:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:33 ... it was the push that I needed to start caring more about how my decisions and behaviors are impacting it. So, let's talk about how I can make that ball of tofu in my head super healthy-

Wendy Suzuki 37:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:42 ... super big, fat, and fluffy.

Wendy Suzuki 37:43 Right.

Steven Bartlett 37:43 You talked about exercise early on-

Wendy Suzuki 37:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:45 ... but we didn't really dig- dig into exactly what you mean by exercise, 'cause exercise, I think, is multifaceted in its definition.

Wendy Suzuki 37:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:52 What kind of exercise should I be doing to make my ball of tofu in my head great?

Wendy Suzuki 37:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:59 Optimal.

Wendy Suzuki 38:00 Mm-hmm. Well, all the research shows that the best kind of exercise that you can do is anything that gives you aerobic activity, that is getting your heart rate up. So, that- that goes for, you know, power walking will get your heart rate up, soccer, so many different things. Name your activity. So many people want to say, "Oh, well my favorite activity, will that work?" And I always just say, "Is it- is your heart rate up when you're doing it?" If the answer is yes, then yeah, that- that works great. We know that that level of aerobic activity is critical, 'cause that's gonna release that growth factor maximally to get into your hippocampus, uh, that will grow those new brain cells.

Steven Bartlett 38:41 How much?

Wendy Suzuki 38:42 So, um, I have an answer to that. So, um, we did two different experiments in my lab. One, in low fit people, people that are really not exercising very much at all, less than 30 minutes, um, um, in the last three- three weeks you- you've, uh, moved your body, and, um, we asked what... Could we see any behavioral improvement in your memory function from your hippocampus or your, uh, ability to shift and focus attention if we ask you to move your body in an aerobic way for two to three times a week? And we collaborated with a spin class, so clearly very aerobic. And what we found was, in those people that did successfully do two to three times a week of 45-minute aerobic activity, their mood got significantly better, their memory function got better, and their ability to shift and focus attention got significantly better. So, that gives a little bit of a guideline for low fit people, two to three times a week can start to give you some of those- some of those cognitive changes. But you don't look low fit, so let me- let me answer the question you're about to ask me with like, "What about me? I- I exercise pretty regularly and, um, how much- how much do I need?" So, to answer that question, we went to another spin studio and we said, "Look, we're gonna give you free classes. You could exercise as much as you want in this- in this, um, at this studio, and, uh, um, go up to seven times a week." And the control was just stay the same. You know, they were- they were working out twice a week at- at the studio.

Steven Bartlett 40:21 Control was the other group, that one you were testing them against?

Wendy Suzuki 40:23 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 40:23 Okay.

Wendy Suzuki 40:24 Exactly. And so, what we found was basically every drop of sweat counted. The more you exercise, the more change in your brain we noted, both your hippocampal function, prefrontal function, and mood. If... You- you- you were already getting benefit, you know, you're already going twice a week, but the more you did, the more brain changes you got. So, that- that doesn't give the formula that I would like, but we were heading in that direction, which is part of one of the questions that I want to answer. But I love to leave people with the idea that every drop of sweat counts for building your brain into the big, fat, fluffy brain that you really want.

Steven Bartlett 41:08 And then in the real world, again making it super, um, real for people-

Wendy Suzuki 41:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:14 ... how- how does that change how I show up?

Wendy Suzuki 41:16 Yeah. If you allow it to, should have a beautiful effect on your mindset, um, that your mindset around, um, how often should I take... wake up 30 minutes early and do that walk before I start my day, or accept the- the invitation to go, uh, walk the dog with- with a neighbor? Um, it's not an obligation. It is something that you're doing for yourself. It is going to have direct benefits on that ball of tofu, as you call it, in your head. It's gonna make it work better. And- and, I mean, I think the most immediate thing that I benefit from every single day is the mood boost that you get from that serotonin, dopamine, noradrenaline that gets released every time you

Wendy Suzuki 42:04 move your body.

Steven Bartlett 42:04 I always think that, 'cause obviously I do a lot of podcasting and it's- I'm super reliant on my brain being as attached to my mouth, and sometimes I notice that it's not.

Wendy Suzuki 42:12 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:12 You know what I mean? Like sometimes I'm not articulate, I can't get my thoughts together, whatever.

Wendy Suzuki 42:14 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 42:15 And I always- I try and figure out the correlation between what I did that day-

Wendy Suzuki 42:18 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 42:18 ... when I have a good day versus a bad day.

Wendy Suzuki 42:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:21 And I've... From- from your... And also, I speak on stage sometimes, so I've of- often asked myself, 'cause I saw Tony Robbins-

Wendy Suzuki 42:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:27 ... the speaker one day on a trampoline before he goes up on stage.

Wendy Suzuki 42:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:31 I ask myself, okay, should I be doing a workout in my green room before I go up on stage-

Wendy Suzuki 42:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:36 ... for a big talk or presentation?

Wendy Suzuki 42:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:38 You think I should?

Wendy Suzuki 42:38 Oh yeah, absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 42:40 What's the basis of that in science, in neuroscience?

Wendy Suzuki 42:42 Uh, it's... The basis is that immediate ef- So, there's three key effects that we know happen every time you move your body. First one is mood. You're gonna get your dopamine, your serotonin up. Um, second is focus and attention. So- so, a single workout isn't going to make more synapses in your prefrontal cortex, but the prefrontal cortex uses dopamine. And so, um, it's clear that even a single workout can make your prefrontal cortex work better in terms of focused attention, also very important any time you're speaking. And the third is reaction time. Your reaction time, you know, motor, y- you're working your motor cortex when you move your body. And your response and reaction time is significantly shorter after a- even a single workout compared to if you just don't work out and sit- sit, um, alone. So, great- great things to do, a great thing to do before you- you stand up and

Wendy Suzuki 43:37 speak.

Steven Bartlett 43:37 What about...... coffee. I- I- I'm trying to figure out if coffee is good for my brain-

Wendy Suzuki 43:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:45 ... bad for my brain.

Wendy Suzuki 43:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:46 I've had a couple of mixed messages around the impact it might be having on our brain.

Wendy Suzuki 43:51 Yeah. You know, caffeine is a stimulant and, uh, people respond to that kind of stimulant, uh, in different ways. Over-stimulation w- with caffeine is, is not good for your ab- your ability to put words together. You know, this is where I turn to, uh, a, a main theme in, in my book, Healthy Brain, Happy Life with this, which is self-experimentation. For you, how, what, can you titrate your coffee to see what level of coffee is best for whatever, your podcast or you're giving a talk? The other thing that can work similarly to coffee that, that I've started, uh, and that I do every morning is, um, hot/cold contrast showers, because that cold that you sh- shower on yourself after the heat, um, stimulates adrenaline in you, a natural adrenaline. Ooh, it wakes you up and... Okay, it was painful the first, kind of, few times I tried it, but then you get addicted to it, and I have forgotten to do it and gotten back in the shower just to douse myself with cold water because I feel better when I do that for, for, you know, first thing in the morning. So, lots of different things that one can w- uh, explore with.

Steven Bartlett 45:09 Okay. On the other side of the coin then, what are some of the central behaviors that people do that destroy their brain?

Wendy Suzuki 45:15 (laughs) Well, sedentary behavior is one of them. Um, not getting enough sleep is critical. We haven't talked about sleep yet. Sleep is so important for normal functioning of the brain. I like to scare my students by saying that, um, you know, in torture situations, if you deprive a person of sleep for too long, they literally die. They, they, they die. You cannot function if you are deprived of sleep for too many hours in a row. It's that critical, yet we don't... we, we happily, you know, watch too much Netflix at night and, and, and, and get only five hours of sleep when we could have had eight. So, um, what's happening exactly? Why is it so important? Well, there's, um, there's so many different things. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say two. One is that we know that in regular, um, um, healthy sleep, there is activity in the hippocampus that helps you strengthen the memories that you have formed in that previous day. It's called consolidation, and it's so important. If you shorten that, if you don't get enough, you are not consolidating your normal everyday memories. And second, it is, uh, the time during sleep when all the metabolites, all that garbage that your brain is producing, because all biological cells produce garbage, it gets kind of, um, cleaned up, um, through the cerebral spinal fluid that, that is flowing through your brain, and if you do not get enough sleep, you build up garbage metabolites in your brain. It's like you have a gunky brain. And do you feel like... I feel like I have gunk in my brain when I don't sleep enough. That is exactly what is, what is happening.

Steven Bartlett 46:58 When you think about, um, things that we consume-

Wendy Suzuki 47:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:01 ... you know, like food and drink and alcohol and all these kinds of things-

Wendy Suzuki 47:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:05 ... is there, is there anything that, if I'm trying to have an optimal brain, I should be-

Wendy Suzuki 47:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:09 ... having or not having?

Wendy Suzuki 47:10 Yeah. Well, so, um, I think the most evidence is around the benefit of the Mediterranean diet, which is basically all healthy, uh, um, kind of organ- not organic, but non-processed is the word I was trying to think of, things to eat that are very, very colorful. There's so much evidence about how good that is generally for the brain, that that is my go-to. Like, what, what should I eat? Well, is it on the Mediterranean diet? If it is, then go ahead. If it's too processed, only do it just a little bit. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 47:48 I- Is it true that if we have less friends, if we have less strong relationships, if we're lonely-

Wendy Suzuki 47:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:53 ... then our brain will shrink and is more prone to dementia and Alzheimer's and things like that?

Wendy Suzuki 47:59 Yes. We are social creatures, and, um, there are, uh, really powerful studies that have shown the correlation between the number of social connections that we have, including just saying hello to the barista at Starbucks. It's not a close friendship that you develop over 30 years. It's, it's just how many people you interact with and greet, and longevity. The more people you are regularly interacting with, the longer you are living, overall longevity. But if you go into brain health, absolutely, it's also very, very healthy for you. It also brings happiness. So, a friend and colleague of mine, um, Robert Walinger, uh, studied, um, what makes people happy. The study started in the '20s, 1920s in, in Harvard, and after all of those many, many, many decades, the answer is what brings happiness is the strength of your social connections. So, it makes you happier, it makes you live longer, and, and, uh, yes, loneliness on the, on the fl- um, flip side, causes stress, uh, long-term stress that, that damages the brain, and, uh, yeah, in the long term, can, can make it smaller and, uh, less healthy.

Steven Bartlett 49:15 Do you have any brain routines? Like an-

Wendy Suzuki 49:17 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:17 ... like a morning routine for your brain?

Wendy Suzuki 49:19 Absolutely. So every morning I like to wake up and I do a, um, tea meditation, which is a meditation over the brewing and drinking of tea, and this is after many years of yo-yo meditating. I knew meditation was good, but I just couldn't really get into it, and, um, I was introduced to this form of meditation, um, from, uh, by a monk who, who invited me to tea and, and just did this silent meditation outside i- in a beautiful location, and the ritual and the, um, um, the sequence of brewing, drinking, seeping, uh, re- starting over again kind of...... kept me in, kept me in the flow. And so I start with about a 45-minute tea meditation. Uh, then I do about a 30-minute workout. I try and do cardio strength. Sometimes I do yoga, sometimes I just do mobility. Um, and then I have breakfast, and then I go to work. Oh, and then I, I do that har- hot-cold contrast shower, is also something very helpful for my brain health because it, it really does in me, that adrenaline boost that I get just energizes me, and I love that feeling at the beginning of the day.

Steven Bartlett 50:31 Just going back to that question 'cause I wanna close off on it as well-

Wendy Suzuki 50:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:33 ... the, the idea of what would I have to do to destroy my brain? So, no sleep-

Wendy Suzuki 50:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:37 ... I'm gonna be sedentary-

Wendy Suzuki 50:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:40 ... I'm gonna have no friends.

Wendy Suzuki 50:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:42 And smoking?

Wendy Suzuki 50:44 Smoking is very bad for your health and, and your brain.

Steven Bartlett 50:47 Okay. Um, alcohol?

Wendy Suzuki 50:50 Alcohol, I mean, yes, long term alcohol can cause significant and named brain diseases. Um, moderation, e- even moderation now, studies have shown, is not very good. And the reason why it's not good is that alcohol disrupts your sleep. Even though people drink it to, to go to sleep faster, the sleep is much more superficial and is not deep, and it's not the healthy sleep. So that is, uh, not good overall for your, for the, for sleep, um, depth and, and health, and therefore brain health.

Steven Bartlett 51:25 I'm gonna eat a processed diet to-

Wendy Suzuki 51:27 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 51:27 ... hu- hurt my brain. And I'm not gonna have a lifestyle that is novel, because we talked about learning.

Wendy Suzuki 51:34 Right. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 51:35 So, I'm not gonna learn anything new.

Wendy Suzuki 51:36 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:37 All of these things should shrink that-

Wendy Suzuki 51:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:38 ... little ?

Wendy Suzuki 51:40 You're not gonna be mindful

Wendy Suzuki 51:41 also.

Steven Bartlett 51:42 Does mind- is there, is there evidence that being mindful, which is like meditation and-

Wendy Suzuki 51:46 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 51:46 ... being in the moment helps the brain?

Wendy Suzuki 51:48 It does. Uh, there's beautiful studies showing brain plasticity, um, in the areas that are important for focused attention. Meditation, the practice of meditation, is basically a practice of, um, enriching the function of your prefrontal cortex so you can focus on that object, either the breath or, or, um, uh, loving kindness is, is a form of meditation. So yes, there, there's been studies that brain changes, um, occur in long-term meditators that are, that are absolutely beneficial.

Steven Bartlett 52:21 What if I'm on social media all the time? Because isn't that good for me? Because I'm gonna be seeing lots of new things all the time and I'll be learning lots of new things. So isn't- if I sat on a, on a screen for seven hours a day, is that good for my brain, social media?

Wendy Suzuki 52:35 Does that take you away from real people and interacting with real people?

Steven Bartlett 52:39 Yes.

Wendy Suzuki 52:40 Okay. Then, then it's modulated by that. There-

Steven Bartlett 52:42 Isn't it the same thing?

Wendy Suzuki 52:44 There's a difference. And I think your brain knows it. And, um, th- look, there's, there's enormous amounts of evidence showing that the increase in use of social media, um, especially in young kids, uh, correlate with huge increases in depression and anxiety levels, particularly in young girls. So when, when kids started getting the smartphones and started to spend more and more, seven hours a day on social media, that's when the anxiety and depression went up. That's for young kids. I use social media as well as a tool for business. That is a little bit different. I'm not 13 years old, and you're not 13 years old. So, so, you know, there, there's some warnings I think that need to go into, into that. But, but let me, let me be clear. No, it's not the same. Social media is not the same as social interactions face-to-face with people.

Steven Bartlett 53:39 Are you, are you concerned about what social media is doing to our brains?

Wendy Suzuki 53:43 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 53:43 Because we, you know, we, I ha- we hear those stats around, you know, young, young girls are struggling most with social media, and we think to ourselves, "Well, that's because there's a lot of, like, comparison and all these kinds of things, and there's a lot of, like, toxic messaging and such." But if we think about the physiological consequences of social media, what it's actually doing to our brains at a chemical level-

Wendy Suzuki 54:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:04 ... what, what would you as a neuroscientist guess is a- like, is the physiological harm to the brain? Not the sort of psycholo- I'm thinking about, like, not the psychological, "Okay. Oh my god, she's more this than me," but, like, the physiological harm.

Wendy Suzuki 54:16 But the psychological harm causes stress. Stress releases stress hormone that goes into the brain that at too high and too constant a level can start to first damage connections and then kill cells. So it's, it's intertwined, um, there, and that, that is part of, of what is happening. Um, you can't, you know, pull one, one away from the other.

Steven Bartlett 54:41 'Cause our, you know, where social media is designed to kind of- it's like pulling the slot machine handle. I pull down on the feed and I get ping, "Oh look, there's a nice picture," and oh, ping, there's notifications and comments, et cetera. It's that con-

Wendy Suzuki 54:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:52 ... you know, I think about the constant... They say there's constant dopamine hit.

Wendy Suzuki 54:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:56 They refer to it. Is it a dopamine hit? Is this what happening when we're being stimulated by social media or a slot machine?

Wendy Suzuki 55:02 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 55:02 And is there, is there any harm in just a constant dopamine hit all day every day?

Wendy Suzuki 55:07 Well, I would not... I'm gonna answer that question by saying I would not want to be addicted to gambling. Gambling is addictive. It- it's hard to get away. You, you, you lose all these other things that we just decided were all good for you, including sleep, including social connections, um, including exercise, and I think that's part of what social media is doing for our young kids is not good, that they're not joining teams outside to be social and interactive in, uh, in that, uh, kind of now it seems like an old-fashioned way, but it's very, very powerful way for development, um, and brain health.

Steven Bartlett 55:46 I think I'm addicted to my phone.

Wendy Suzuki 55:47 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 55:48 And I s- I often ask myself, is that, is that a problem? And from what you said, it sounds like the problem is what I sacrifice-

Wendy Suzuki 55:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:56 ... through that, like, addiction to that device.

Wendy Suzuki 55:58 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 55:59 I- is that, that the issue? The issue is I sacrifice social connections, maybe movement-

Wendy Suzuki 56:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:04 ... you know? Although I do work out every day. But the brain is smart enough to know that...There's no substitute for real human connections.

Wendy Suzuki 56:11 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 56:14 And that's gonna make me what? I'm trying to... I- I need you-

Wendy Suzuki 56:18 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 56:18 ... to help me (laughs) -

Wendy Suzuki 56:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:20 ... scare me out of this (laughs) phone addiction that I think I have, but I know many other people have as well.

Wendy Suzuki 56:26 So, that is going to limit your potential for brain growth, for, for brain plasticity. It is going to limit your, uh, possibility for, for, you know, (laughs) not to be dramatic, but joy in, in your life. There's different kinds of joy that you have in, in real person-to-person social interactions that it feels pretty good on social media if you get lots of likes and, you know, um, but it's not the same. And, um, I would, I would say that to scare yourself out, you're gonna have to bite the bullet and do a two-week phone detox. What would that do to you? How would you feel?

Steven Bartlett 57:12 I just could never imagine such a thing.

Wendy Suzuki 57:14 Well...

Steven Bartlett 57:15 Which is a real shame, isn't it, really? 'Cause I just think about like my ancestors and my parents. They must, they must think I'm so strange, but it's just the, just the way that... Like when my phone dies, I'm like, uh, there's like, I- I'm like nervously waiting for it to come back on. I'm like staring at it like, "Oh my God." Like, (laughs) like, "What am I gonna do with myself?" Like... Uh, and I remember those studies they did on people where they gave them the choice of either sitting alone with their own thoughts or giving themself an electric shock, and a huge amount of people in that study actually would rather give themselves an electric shock-

Wendy Suzuki 57:45 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 57:46 ... than just sit alone with their thoughts because it's some kind of stimulation. That's kind of how I think I am now. Like, I don't know what I'd do without my phone. It's really sad. I know there's people listening to me now that think I'm an absolute, like... I'm really sad, but it's just the n- it's the truth, you know? And, um, I do wonder what it's doing to my brain, but I think you're right. I think it's actually what it's doing to my like, my life.

Wendy Suzuki 58:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:07 The joy, the connections.

Wendy Suzuki 58:08 Right.

Steven Bartlett 58:09 The being, being there to experience things and, um...

Wendy Suzuki 58:12 I mean, that point that you made is a very profound one. Um, the, the not wanting to be alone with your thoughts is the core of meditation. Can you be alone with your thoughts and focus on something, something organic? Usually the breath, but also a thought like loving-kindness. Um, that is a very powerful practice to do and it, and it's hard. I find it hard too. Um, and I actually, I notice I find it harder when I'm, when I'm using social media and when I'm using my phone more. Um, but I feel most creative and most imaginative when I do practice that. That is, being alone with my thoughts. What comes into mind? Um, how w- how does my own imagination work? Which is very much dependent on the hippocampus as well. It's putting together all these things in your memory in new and interesting ways that are unique for you or unique for me, and it doesn't work the same if you're stimulating your brain with social media all the time.

Steven Bartlett 59:21 You, um, I mean, you wrote a book that kinda speaks to some of what we're talking about here. You wrote a book about anxiety.

Wendy Suzuki 59:25 Yes, I did.

Steven Bartlett 59:27 Uh, 2021.

Wendy Suzuki 59:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:28 I think the, uh, the US version is called Good Anxiety, isn't it?

Wendy Suzuki 59:30 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:31 Slightly different title in the U- in the UK.

Wendy Suzuki 59:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:35 Why did you write a book about anxiety?

Wendy Suzuki 59:37 I wrote a book about anxiety because I started to notice my students getting much more anxious than they ever used to be, and this was before the pandemic that... I mean, I- I- I had the idea to write this book in 2018, 2019, and so at first I noticed it in the students. They were getting so stressed out before finals. They never did that before, so, so many accommodations they were asking for and I'm like, "Well, what's going on here?" But then I realized it wasn't just them, like I'm getting more anxious as well. My friends are more anxious, and I really wanted to dive into that. I didn't wanna be anxious in that way, uh, 'cause part of me was like, "Oh, I'm just a New Yorker. I'm just anxious all the time," right? 'Cause that's what New Yorkers are. No, i- th- this has changed, and we forget that before the pandemic, there was, there was still global warning, warming. There was still political issues that, that lots of people, including me and all of my students were worried about. And that was the impetus for, for trying to dive in and ask, "Well, I made my life happier with exercise. What, what is the approach when it's anxiety?" And not clinical anxiety. I did not have clinical anxiety, and the vast majority of my students didn't have clinical anxiety. They had what I called everyday anxiety, just worried about the things that are going on in the world, and there were just more things to be worried about.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:00 Is that normal? Is that human?

Wendy Suzuki 1:01:02 That is human. Absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:03 But is it human in the qu- in... Is the quantity in which we experience it human?

Wendy Suzuki 1:01:10 Uh, I think it is. I mean...

Steven Bartlett 1:01:12 'Cause I think about my ancestors. Okay, they, they probably... I don't know. I always imagine my ancestors kind of, I don't know, just chilling.

Wendy Suzuki 1:01:17 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:18 You know, like I'm-

Wendy Suzuki 1:01:18 But they didn't have, they didn't have global warming where the ocean is about to, you know, get sucked up in plastic and, and the, the ozone is gonna come, come down. No worries like that at all.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:30 But, but the everyday anxiety for me is like emails (laughs) and WhatsApp.

Wendy Suzuki 1:01:35 Well, uh, by everyday I- anxiety, I mean the anxiety that people are feeling today that is not at the clinical level. So, all the things that we just meant- mentioned, global warming and wars in multiple places in the world, all of that contributes to the higher level of anxiety. And your ancestors and mine went through two world wars, but, b- and that was anxiety-provoking. No question about it, but they weren't also all the other things that were, um, you know, contributing to it, including the higher than, you know, extremely high anxiety and suicide levels of our young people.... that are, you know, uh, th- strongly linked to social media. So, that's, that's another element.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:20 What did you find then when you started uncovering and trying to go on this search of figuring out i- you know, the, the nature of anxiety and what we can do about it? Did you first find that you're right in your hypothesis that it is increasing?

Wendy Suzuki 1:02:32 Yeah. Yeah. That was-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:33 How much? Do you know how much?

Wendy Suzuki 1:02:36 Um, you know, it, it shifted over the time that I wrote and published the book because I started in 2018 and then it was published in the middle of the pandemic in 2021 where anxiety levels went up approximately 20% worldwide. So, um, but the social media anxiety, um, that is going up in girls even more than 20%. Um, that's kind of in parallel, so I- I- I actually don't know how to, um, integrate those two levels, but they're both going in the same direction.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:07 Why are women, young women becoming more anxious and suicidality amongst that age group is rapidly increased?

Wendy Suzuki 1:03:18 You know, I think that, um, it's, it's that comparison that, that is so easy to do, and I see it in my own work at the university that when I was going to college, I had no idea what rank I was in, in number in the application, but they could see that immediately. They know exactly what number they are in each and every class they take, in their whole high school class, in the, in their, uh, application to, to the five schools that they applied to or 10 or 15 now that they're applying to. That gives a h- much higher level of stress when you know those numbers immediately, um, that we never had. So, so there are stresses like that, that, that, um, they're, they're experiencing.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:02 More information-

Wendy Suzuki 1:04:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:03 ... more... It's funny 'cause more social connection, but it's, uh, when I say social connection, I don't mean real world social connection. I mean more followers and likes and-

Wendy Suzuki 1:04:13 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:13 ... more people that can message me and tell me something-

Wendy Suzuki 1:04:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:15 ... and DM me or comment on my thing.

Wendy Suzuki 1:04:17 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:17 More noise.

Wendy Suzuki 1:04:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:19 The volume's increased-

Wendy Suzuki 1:04:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:20 ... which seems to be driving more anxiety. Where do we experience anxiety? Where, from a physiological standpoint, where is anxiety? 'Cause it feels like it's in your chest.

Wendy Suzuki 1:04:28 Yeah. (laughs) So, anxiety is kind of a full body (laughs) experience, and, um, anxiety is, um, strongly linked with the stress response. So, um, a- an anxiety-provoking situation, you, you, um, meet somebody that you, uh, you know, had a big fight with before. "Oh, I'm anxious. I might have to speak to that person before." Uh, that l- l- launches, that launches the stress response, um, that is, um, dependent on what's called the sympathetic nervous system, and so this is where it becomes full body. So, what happens when your fight or flight system is activated? Your heart rate goes up, your respiration goes up, your, um, irises get, get bigger so you can see everything and look out for that, that annoying person that you're worried about. Um, and blood is shunted from your digestion and reprod- reproductive organs towards your muscles so you can fight or run away. That's what all of our ancestors evolved to protect us from not, not the social media post, but, um, the lion or the tiger that could come and attack us. So, it made sense for that kind of stressor or that kind of threat. Unfortunately, our bodies do the same exact thing when the nasty DM comes in from somebody I wasn't sure who it is, but they're saying something really bad about something I care about a lot. And we get this stress response, we get anxious because of that. And, uh, somebody asked me, "Does that mean our brain is not very smart?" And the answer is our, our, our stress and our threat s- system is not very smart. It isn't differentiating between the lion that could physically kill us and the DM that might wound our pride (laughs) but, but will not kill us. But it causes the same kind of, um, stress response and anxiety response.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:22 What do I do about that?

Wendy Suzuki 1:06:24 You have to learn how to turn the volume of your own anxiety down, and part of that is, I'm not saying you have to not look at your DMs or not look at s- or, or not look at soc- social media. There's lots of ways to turn your anxiety down. We've already talked about, uh, some of those approaches. Exercise immediately decreases anxiety and depression levels, and there, you don't even have to get aerobic. 10 minutes walking can significantly decrease your anxiety and depression levels. That is a powerful tool that everybody can use right t- right here, right now. Breath meditation. Did you know that breath meditation, that is deep breathing, um, is the oldest form of meditation? Why? Because equal and opposite to that fight or flight response that everybody seems to know about is the rest and digest part of your nervous system called the parasympathetic nervous system that calms you down. It slows your heart rate down, slows your respiration rate down, and shunts blood from your muscles towards your digestion and reproductive organs so that you can do those weekend rest and digest kinds of things. Well, everybody should be asking, "Well, h- do I have that system?" Yes, everybody has that system. Everybody has a parasympathetic nervous system. How do I activate that? The best and most effective way that you could activate that right now is take three deep breaths because that's the only thing you have conscious control over that can launch all the rest of that parasympathetic activity, slowing your heart rate. I can't slow my heart rate by thinking about it. Can I take three deep, slow breaths right now? Absolutely. And monks hundreds if not thousands of years ago realized that. That is the thing that I can do immediately to slow my, slow my stress response down. It's very, very powerful.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:18 Sadness.

Wendy Suzuki 1:08:20 Sadness. Sadness is, um, can be linked with anxiety and, um, you know, sadness, like anxiety, is something that people, I think, would like to kick out of their lives and just never have any more at all. If I could get rid of sadness and anxiety, I would be the happiest person alive. But would you? Because my argument in Good Anxiety, my book, Good Anxiety, is that these prickly emotions, these difficult emotions like anxiety, like sadness, are really, really valuable because they're- they're focusing us on things that we should be paying attention to. Specifically anxiety. It is a warning system. "Oh, there's that person. Oh, you didn't have a good interaction. You- you need to pay attention." Now, should it throw you into a- an anxiety attack? Perhaps not. Use some of these techniques, um, like- like deep breathing and- and going for a walk. But it is a warning system and why is this valuable? Here's why it's valuable. It's valuable because when you know what you are worried about, your fears that your anxiety focuses you on, it actually tells you about what you hold most dear in your life, and that is something that we should all really wanna know. So, if you're a people pleaser, um, you are doing lots of things to, maybe too many things, to please people. But that means that you care about personal interaction, and I start with this one because I'm a people pleaser, and I realized that people pleasing response and the anxiety that it does evoke is reminding me that what's very, very valuable to me is that interaction with people. I care about that. That's a beautiful thing. I value that in my life, in my personality.

Wendy Suzuki 1:10:21 (page flips)

Steven Bartlett 1:10:21 I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. What is in the Diary of a CEO cup? This cup that sits in front of me when I interview these people, sometimes for three hours and sometimes three people a day, and the answer is this. Perfect Ted. I invested in the company on Dragon's Den, and since then, they've gone from an idea to the fastest growing energy drink in the UK. It is a matcha energy drink and it is absolutely delicious, but that's not why I choose to drink it on this podcast. The reason I choose to drink it is because it gives me what I call all-day energy. It- I don't get the same crashes that I used to get with other energy drinks. If you're in the middle of a conversation or you're in the middle of a talk on stage or in the boardroom, the last thing you wanna do is have a crash. You don't want jitters and you need focus, and that is why they now sponsor this podcast. Not only is it delicious, but it gives me a significant competitive advantage. If you haven't tried it, go down to a Tesco, go to a Waitrose, or go online and use the code DIARY10 at checkout and you'll get 10% off. And when you do try it, let me know how you get on.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:22 (page flips) Do you think we could see love in the brain? Can you see if someone's in love in the brain?

Wendy Suzuki 1:11:27 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 1:11:27 If you scan the brain of someone that's in love, when they're interacting with their partner, could we see that?

Wendy Suzuki 1:11:31 Um, yes. In fact, they have scanned people who are in the throes of- of, uh, um, romantic love and people that are in, um, you know, many years into a loving relationship, and there are, uh, lots of reward areas that get activated when you're scanning the brain, um, of somebody that- that, you know, is in the throes of deep romantic love. That is in the first few weeks, you can't get enough of the person, you're with them all the time, you can't stop thinking about them. A lot of the reward areas are- are activated. Uh, a lot of the social interaction areas, including the insula, uh, a part of the brain right in the side here, just- just, uh, in the, uh, area near the ear, deep into the cortex, get- gets activated.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:19 Doesn't that mean then that if we don't fall in love, if we don't have those feelings, that that part of our brain might shrink? Because if... You know, they say often things like, "You loo- you use it or you lose it." They say, "Neurons-"

Wendy Suzuki 1:12:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:31 "... that fire together, wire together."

Wendy Suzuki 1:12:32 Right. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:32 If I'm not in love, if I'm not- if I don't have those social connections, will the love part of my brain get smaller?

Wendy Suzuki 1:12:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:38 And would that make it more difficult to love in the future?

Wendy Suzuki 1:12:41 That's a great question. I think that, um, that study has not been done.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:46 I'm gonna do it.

Wendy Suzuki 1:12:46 But... Absolutely. If, uh, uh, if you don't use that part of the brain, um, you will not, you know, gain the function. And so, yeah, not- not using your love part of your brain is- is not a, n- nothing that I would ever recommend.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:02 Some people, I guess, don't have a choice. Well, I guess they have a choice in the sense that they can do things, they have optionality, but for whatever reason, some people don't find love. It's just an interesting observation because in all other parts of the brain, you have to, like-

Wendy Suzuki 1:13:17 Do you mean romantic love?

Steven Bartlett 1:13:18 Romantic love, yeah.

Wendy Suzuki 1:13:19 But- but, you know, there's all sorts of different kinds of love. Deep friendship. Um, it's actually, what I was gonna say is that, um, they tried to look at the difference between romantic love and maternal love or paternal love, and it turns out that long-term relationships, like romantic relationships, marriages that last for many years, start out, of course, in this romantic phase. But it turns into more of a maternal, paternal, um, pattern when you go farther and farther along. That- that is a win. That is not, "Oh, there's something wrong with your brain." Um, I think love does evolve over time, and there's many different kinds of love beyond the romantic Hollywood, you know, uh, and Disney kind of, uh, uh, form of love.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:13 So, you can see the honeymoon phase in the brain?

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:15 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:15 And then you can see the m- more mature love, I guess-

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:18 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:19 ... in the brain?

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:20 Super interesting. Uh, the- I guess the- the opposite of love...... I guess, might be hate, but I think when another sort of thing that people might think of is the opposite of love would be rejection or heartbreak.

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:34 And through all of our lives we encounter-

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:36 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:36 ... heartbreak in many forms.

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:37 We encounter romantic heartbreak, but also other forms of heartbreak. As I read through your story, I, I, I could see moments in your story where you encountered various types of heartbreak.

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:47 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:47 Grief.

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:48 You talked about your father passing away from Alzheimer's?

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:52 Yes. Well, he had a heart attack-

Steven Bartlett 1:14:54 Heart attack.

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:54 He had Alzheimer's dementia when he passed away, he, he died of a heart attack.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:00 And just three months after your dad's death, your younger brother died of an unexpected heart attack.

Wendy Suzuki 1:15:04 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:04 Age 50.

Wendy Suzuki 1:15:05 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:06 And you say in your book Good Anxiety, in chapter four you say, "The death was unfathomable."

Wendy Suzuki 1:15:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:13 As someone who studied the brain, and therefore has a really strong understanding of the physiology of the human mind-

Wendy Suzuki 1:15:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:21 ... and has also s- written a book about anxiety, so you have this s- sort of two-pronged approach towards understanding feelings and emotions.

Wendy Suzuki 1:15:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:30 In those moments, what did you come to understand about the nature of emotion, the most intense emotions, and how-

Wendy Suzuki 1:15:38 Wow.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:38 ... how they captivate us and how we can find our path through the jungle?

Wendy Suzuki 1:15:43 Yeah, I like that word that I used. It was unfathomable, um, um, both of those losses at, at the same time, it, it was hard to process. And I remember the waves of grief that would come over. It wasn't constant, uh, it, it would, it would, it would be like waves. So I'd, I'd have one and then it would recede and I felt a little bit better, but then unexpectedly it would c- come again. And, um, I'd never, thank goodness, experienced that before. And, um, it was in the middle of writing the book Good Anxiety, and I, I put it aside, uh, 'cause I couldn't write when I was going through this, this terrible grief and, and I had to do something that I'd never ever had to do, and actually it was my biggest fear. Um, unnamed biggest fear in my life was, um, to have to give a eulogy. I, I have a fear of uncontrollable crying in public and I'd always been afraid of, of eulogies, and, uh, I'd never had to give a eulogy and I had to give this eulogy for my, for my brother, um, another unfathomable, "H- how could that be happening?" And, um, I, I got, I got through that and, um, I learned something in the process, and I remember working out to try and make myself feel, feel better during this time, and, um, the instructor said about the workout, "With great pain comes great wisdom." And I just glommed onto that, that message, 'cause I was feeling great pain. What was the wisdom? Like, I need to find some wisdom, what, what is that wisdom? And I realized, because I had to say something at this eulogy, that the wisdom was that on the other side of that unfathomable grief that I was feeling, the only reason why I was feeling that unfathomable grief is because of the deep love that I had, that it started with. So if I didn't love them as much, I wouldn't have as deep a grief. So in fact, the grief and the, the, the depth of it was a sign of the love that I had for them. And that, that was the wisdom that I found and that was the solace that I found, and that was the message that it gave in that eulogy. And, um, and then I became obsessed with the flip side of these awful emotions that we all go through, grief is this one. Because I had to go back and finish this book Good Anxiety (laughs) . How was I gonna do that? The book was transformed by that event because I realized that if I could find the wisdom and the, the power, um, of the most horrible emotion, I'm gonna say, grief, what is the flip side of anxiety? What is the gift, what is the superpower that comes from anxiety? And I needed to find gifts and superpowers, and that's why the book got written in that way. And I, I name superpowers that come from anxiety, that was, that was heightened after, after this terrible event. But I found them and I used them all the time. It was therapeutic, actually.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:26 How did it change you, the loss of your brother and your father in such a short period of time? How are you a different person because of those two events?

Wendy Suzuki 1:19:34 You realize that everybody's going to feel these emotions sometime in their life. And I can bring more empathy and compassion to those experience for others. And I, I remember ex- I, I never wanted to talk to people that had a loss. I never knew what to say, that I knew I was gonna say something wrong. I just had no idea. I, I felt lost. And, um, and it is... I do feel wiser. I feel like I have more empathy, I have more knowledge.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:17 Can I ask you a question? If, if, if there was a pill...

Wendy Suzuki 1:20:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:21 ... that you could take to not feel the grief-In the moment when you were in the throes of that grief, would you have taken it? And in hindsight now-

Wendy Suzuki 1:20:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:36 ... would you have taken it?

Wendy Suzuki 1:20:38 I, look, I, I, no. I'm not a pill taker. I, I wasn't clinically... I didn't feel like I, "Oh, I can't, you know, go about my life." It, it, it was, it was a terrible emotion but I, I didn't feel completely debilitated with it. Other, other people do. Maybe they would take the pill. I would not take the pill and after the lessons that I learned from going through those emotions, absolutely. I would not take the pill. And, and that was part of the lesson of writing this book, that anxiety is critical for us because anxiety and sadness and, and anger are critical to help us appreciate those joyous moments if- of our lives. If we had no grief, no sadness, no anger ever, then every day would, you know, it would just be mundane. But it gives that value. I mean, our highest highs are extra high because we know those lows and, and that also is probably how this grief that I experienced affects me. I, I appreciate, I appreciate the, the good times even more.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:56 As a neuroscientist who understands the brain and the systems and the sort of neural pathways and all this stuff and how we think and... Does that l- leave much room for spirituality and those kinds of things? Are you spiritual?

Wendy Suzuki 1:22:11 I am.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:12 And what does, wha- You know, 'cause when some people think about spirituality, they think, it, they think it's the opposite of neuroscience. They think-

Wendy Suzuki 1:22:21 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:21 ... if I spoke to some people, some people that I know, they think of that the decisions and the feelings and the energies are outside of our body, not going on in this ball of tofu.

Wendy Suzuki 1:22:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:31 And then some, like, hardcore s- people, scientists, will ex- will explain all of our experience through this ball of tofu.

Wendy Suzuki 1:22:38 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:39 Where do you sit?

Wendy Suzuki 1:22:40 So, um, I've evolved over time. So, um, when I was a young scientist, I, no spirituality, no religion, everything can be described by science. Like, I have, "Prove it. Prove it to me. I want to, you know, see the data." I happily went through, um, that phase for many, many years of my life, until I realized, or I didn't even realize, I think I needed something more in, in my life. And, and then I realized. First there was a need. There was a r- then there was a realization, "Well, can I really prove that the only thing that is true is that what I, what I can prove? What if there are things beyond, um, proving in the, in the scientific method?" And I think there are things that, uh, in the spiritual realm, in the religious realm, um, that absolutely could be true.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:46 Could be true.

Wendy Suzuki 1:23:47 Could be true, that cannot be solved, cannot be proven with the classic scientific method.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:54 Things that you believe?

Wendy Suzuki 1:23:55 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:58 What makes you believe them? 'Cause on one hand you said you kind of want to.

Wendy Suzuki 1:24:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:03 Which is an element of that.

Wendy Suzuki 1:24:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:04 But as a, I'm interested as a scientist, as a neuroscientist-

Wendy Suzuki 1:24:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:07 ... you must have been trained to be able to explain. That's how you pass the exams you get. You must be able to explain why you have-

Wendy Suzuki 1:24:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:13 ... these beliefs. Do you, in that part of your life, do you just kind of say, "I've ex- I felt it." Is that the a-

Wendy Suzuki 1:24:20 No. It's, uh, well, part of it, yes, I, I, I do feel it. But it was the realization that the scientific method i- in my opinion is not the end all and be all that I thought it was when I was a young scientist. Can you prove that these other realms don't exist? And if they exist in ways that cannot be proved in, in a scientific method, well maybe your scientific method is wrong. Is that, is that a possibility?

Steven Bartlett 1:24:51 Have you had an experience that made you believe in another realm?

Wendy Suzuki 1:24:54 Have I had an experience? Um, I have, uh, (laughs) in my academic way, I have studied texts that are o- the oldest texts that we know. Um, uh, the Bible and I was raised in a, um, a- actually it was a half Christian, half Buddhist, um, family. And, uh, but my, my, my core belief was, uh, uh, Christianity. And so yeah, I, I, I, I go to church. I, I really appreciate the power, um, that, that religious beliefs bring to my life. It actually really decreases my anxiety. And that's not the only reason why I did, I just, I wasn't, looked, searching for an anti-anxiety kind of, um, uh, solution. But I was looking for maybe something more than the scientific method in my life.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:10 We're going in one direction as a society.

Wendy Suzuki 1:26:12 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:13 Like, more, yeah, I told you I'm basically addicted to my phone. Screens, loneliness.

Wendy Suzuki 1:26:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:18 Um, less connection, less friends, less people we can turn to in a time of crisis according to all the studies. And as we go further and further down that road, I think it's bo- making it more obvious of-... what's at the end- the other end of the street.

Wendy Suzuki 1:26:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:31 And it's robbing us of something at a really deep level that I think I'm noticing more and more as I grow older.

Wendy Suzuki 1:26:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:35 I think that's actually why I wanna have kids n- now because-

Wendy Suzuki 1:26:37 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:26:38 ... I think I'm in search of that