The Diary of a CEOThe Food Doctor: Extra Protein Is Making You Fatter!? 6 Food Lies Everyone Still Believes!
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,012 words- 0:00 – 5:26
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
(instrumental music plays) I brought everything that I could find in the supermarket that was making a claim that it was good for me, and I want you to take a look at it. That, Tim Spector, is definitely healthy.
- TSTim Spector
Or not. (digitalized sound effect) Avoid that one. Terrible. Completely rubbish. Not as bad as the other one, but bin. (digitalized sound effect) We're gonna unravel all these secrets. (dramatic music plays) The return of the world's biggest- Gut health expert-
- NANarrator
Professor-
- TSTim Spector
Tim Spector.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He's an award-winning scientist-
- TSTim Spector
Bestselling author- And he's co-founder of the company, ZOE, the home kit for personalized nutrition.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Everything I'm about to throw at you has a whole industry of people behind it. The first one is protein supplements. (laughs)
- TSTim Spector
Protein is massively hyped. Most people are having nearly twice as much protein in their diets as they need, and most of it will be converted to sugars and fat.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Coffee.
- TSTim Spector
It's definitely a health food, and you will live longer.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mouthwash.
- TSTim Spector
You're more prone to infection, and actually worse-smelling breath long-term.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- TSTim Spector
Yes. No hard data that you should be drinking eight glasses of water per day. 10 minutes in the sun will get you all the vitamin D you need. And there's some actual data showing that if you've got too much excess fat on your body, exercise alone is a terrible way to deal with it. You need something radical. You, and many others like you, are a victim of marketing. But we are in a fiber crisis. We think only about one in 20 people are getting enough fiber for good health. (paper rustles) Has a dramatic effect on avoiding cancers, mental health, and your longevity.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, you brought this?
- TSTim Spector
Yep, that's the magic potion. A handful of that, you reduce your risk of death by 14, 15%. Two handfuls, 30%. And it's incredibly easy to do, so... (instrumental music plays)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tim, what is the, um, benefit to me if I change the way that I'm eating and start thinking through the lens of my gut microbiome, and start taking the advice that you talk about in your books? What is the benefit to both me and society in terms of statistical, like, outcomes? Like, why does it matter?
- TSTim Spector
(clicks tongue) It matters 'cause we are suffering an epidemic of common chronic diseases. So, we're getting increases in cancer, heart disease, diabetes, obesity. We ... you know, uh, majority of the population are overweight or obese. That has enormous consequences also on our economic output. Um, it costs the country and the taxpayer nearly 60 billion pounds a year. As a country, we don't want someone like you to become unhealthy, and so that it's difficult for you to work, you're not functioning properly. The state then has to provide for you, extra healthcare, et cetera. There's that individual level, but also, we don't want you to get mental health diseases, depression, um, anxiety, all these things that we know are also linked to poor diet, as well as increased cancers and, and other elements of it. So, it's, it's a combination of the medical, uh, the mental, the social, the economic. All these things are related to having good nutrition, and I think we've taken it for granted that it doesn't really matter what we eat. It's all about weight and these things. But that's maybe only the small side of it. I think there's much more to it than that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Someone like me, I'm, you know, 30-ish years old, and I'm ... I like to think that I'm in good shape. I exercise every day, um, very active. So sometimes, I think I can fall into the trap of thinking because there's no obvious sign of disease in me, that I can eat what I want, because I'm working out. And then I s- ... I sat here with a doctor a couple of, uh, couple of months ago, and he said a sentence to me that sounded something like, "We can see disease growing in you decades out." That really made me change my thinking on health. Because if it is like a seed of health or a seed of disease that's growing in me, irrespective of my current physical abilities and my, you know, think I'm in good shape, it's kind of like compounding invisibly inside of me, disease, for better or for worse. And that means that even someone like me, I can, I can stop 50-year-old Steve's disease now at 30 by making ... nudging my health in a slightly different direction in terms of nutrition. Is that an accurate assessment of ... Because there'll be people that are listening that are so healthy, apparently healthy on the outside, because they can run fast or-
- TSTim Spector
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because they haven't got any problems with their bones or back.
- TSTim Spector
Yeah, well, I ... when I was your age, I didn't think at all about my nutrition really. Um, you know, although I was trained doctor, et cetera, et cetera. I said, "I don't want too much fat. I want this," and, you know, I would try and get a nice-looking steak rather than the cheapest one. Um, but I, I, I didn't think in that way, that I wanted to look after my health in 20 years' time. It's a tough concept for people who are, you know, doing so much else and still feeling good. They're, you know, still getting out of bed fresh in the morning, energized, and not really feeling the effects of, of aging. So, I think it's true, but it, it's quite a tough concept to sell to the whole population, particularly people in their 20s and 30s, about the future. And that's why I think, uh, focusing on things like mental health do resonate perhaps more than saying, um, "Think about what you're gonna be like when you're 50," to most people.
- 5:26 – 15:55
💪🏻 Who Really Needs Extra Protein?
- TSTim Spector
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've spent definitely the last 10 years of my life believing that in order to grow big muscles, which has been an aim of ... throughout my life, I need to have protein supplements. What do you think about that? I still have protein supplements in my house, protein powders, come home from the gym, big scoop of protein, drink it. What do you think of that?
- TSTim Spector
Protein is massively hyped. (sighs) There are very few people who are protein deficient in this country and need supplements. There are a few, but I would say it's less than 5% of the population are not getting sufficient protein to-... perform either their normal activities or, like you, build muscle because it's so inherent in our normal food. We, we evolved, you know, to be omnivores and to get enough protein. And our ancestors didn't fall apart because we didn't get protein shakes. And I think the, the fact that we're focusing on protein is y- you're, you and many others like you, are a victim of marketing, that everywhere you look at the moment, protein is the thing that sells products. If it's got protein on the pack, it's, you know, that's ringing, "Oh, I need extra protein." And protein has this, uh, ring of only good about it. There's nothing bad about protein. It's like just gonna get me big and strong, and I don't have to worry about calories or getting fat. You know, I use it or lose it, and that's fine. And it's completely wrong. The... All the evidence is that, um, most people are having nearly twice as much protein in their, in their diets as they need for normal, uh, protein balance. And the only people that really need to worry are if you're, um, elderly and you're not eating very much. Okay? So young people generally, like yourself, will be getting enough food that a percentage of all that food is gonna contain protein. There's very few foods that don't contain protein. Uh, people don't think about it, but every time you're eating pasta or grains, you're eating protein. Um, it doesn't have to be steak or eggs. And... But the elderly, if you're not eating, you've gone off your food, you're sick, you've got, you know, you're on some medication, uh, might need some extra protein sources or to focus on it, or if you're, uh, a, a strict vegetarian or vegan, in that position where you're not eating much or you're sick or you're elderly, then those people do need something. Now, if you are a bodybuilder and again you're, you're trying to lose weight at the same time, then you might need some protein supplements. But if you're eating a normal diet, there's no evidence the vast majority of, of people need any extra protein. They can get it all from normal food. And normal food, in my opinion, is a much better way of getting it because that's how our bodies have evolved rather than getting it in a drink or a supplement or a powder where it's often mixed with other chemicals, it's not in its natural form, we're not sure that it's all used. And the excess protein you have isn't for free. Protein gets broken down and it either gets eliminated in your body or it's stored as fat, um, as it gets converted to, uh, sugars and then to fats. So people think of protein as only in muscle, and if it's not going to my muscle, I just pee it out, it doesn't matter. Not the case. If you're having lots of protein that you, you can't use up in your muscles because you've already got so much on board, you can't store it anywhere. It, uh... Some of it gets eliminated, but most of it will be converted to sugars and fat.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm. This goes against everything they told me (laughs) because I thought that you could have as much protein as you like, your body can't store it, so I must just be like pooping it out or something. I don't know. Um-
- TSTim Spector
Can't store it as protein-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- TSTim Spector
... but it gets converted.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- TSTim Spector
It's broken down into small pieces and that gets stored in your body, uh, for the future.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So how much protein can I process in like a day? How m- how many grams of protein?
- TSTim Spector
Uh, h- how many kilos roughly are you, are you about?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, 90-
- TSTim Spector
90 kilos?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm gonna say 91 because there's people listening. (laughs)
- TSTim Spector
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- TSTim Spector
It's all muscle though.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- TSTim Spector
Um, so around roughly that amount of protein, um, uh, because it goes with weight. The, the, the more your weight is, the more protein you need to, to repair your muscles and, and keep it going. So, uh, the official amount is normally around, you know, 0.8, uh, grams per kilogram. Okay?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- TSTim Spector
So... But if we think, you know, we wanna be on the safe side, so most people are, 95% of people, that's the, uh, a safe level, but most people, uh, in this country are, are having like 1.4, um, grams per kilogram, so they'd be having, uh, for you, over 100 grams of protein. And basically if, if you don't... anything extra, so you might do a little workout, that might increase it a little bit-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
... maybe 10%. So you might be able to use, uh, 10% of that if you're doing a lot of weight lifting, et cetera, um, but not huge amounts. So if you took 300, uh, grams of protein, most of it is just gonna be either y- you'd be getting rid of it, ex- excreting it in some way, or it would be, uh, converted into, uh, sugars and fats.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Stat I found here. The average daily intake of protein in the UK is 76 grams per day for adults aged 19 to 64, and 67 grams a day for adults aged 65 years and over. So that's how much on average people are consuming with their normal diets.
- TSTim Spector
Yeah. So it's just, uh, roughly, depending on the size of people, it's just over a, a gram per kilo, and they're getting that without protein, most of them without protein powders, just from their normal diets. I mean, as an example, my, you know, my normal breakfast gives me, I worked out, you know, over 30 grams of protein, um, which is sort of what you want to kickstart the day, uh, in order to get muscles repairing things. But if I took, you know, an extra protein powder, give me an extra 100 grams, that really wouldn't...... have any re- effect at all, other than slightly increasing my weight.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about fiber? I- I've got two questions here. What is fiber in the most simple terms, and is it, why is it important, and are we consuming enough fiber in our natural diets in the UK?
- TSTim Spector
So, unlike protein where 95% of people are absolutely fine and not deficient in protein, 95% of people are deficient in fiber. We think only about one in 20 people are getting enough fiber for th- for good health. So, this is, this is the imbalance between the marketing. People just don't make money on fiber like they do on protein, so all the commerce is going to everyone's protein deficient. You've gotta have protein, protein, protein, protein. You know, who's supporting the spinach or the, you know, the, um, the fiber people? Hardly anybody. We're m- massively deficient in it. It is the bits of carbohydrates, so carbohydrates are made up of sugars, starches and fibers. So, fibers are the parts of carbohydrates that are not broken down and absorbed early on in the system. So, they go through to the deeper parts of the intestine, they meet the microbes, and they have to be digested much slower, much lower down your system, and they're food for your gut microbes, and there can be soluble ones, there can be insoluble ones. They're just different degrees of how hard it is to break it down, and we used to think of it as roughage. It used to be called roughage. When I was a, a medical student and a junior doctor, you used to eat this stuff and it was just to, like, clear out the toxins. It was just like, you have this stuff, it scrapes your pipes and cleans it up, and that's all it was thought to do. But now we, we know it's absolutely crucial for health. The average in the UK is about 20 grams of fiber. So, if you just increase that by a quarter, not very much, five grams, that's, uh, uh, you know, a handful of nuts or seeds or something a day, you will increase, uh, or you'll reduce your risk of death by 14, 15%, and if you did two handfuls of nuts, 30%. It e- each one it goes up. So, has a dramatic effect on your, uh, longevity, and it's also important for avoiding cancers and mental health and nearly everything that we've looked at. So, it's really the forgotten element of our, of our diet that I think at the moment we're, you know, in a fiber crisis. We're certainly not in a protein crisis, and yet everyone's talking about protein. It's really, it's really a fascinating interplay between, you know, what the real problems are and what the marketing and, and the commerce of this whole field is. So, we need to improve everybody's fiber amounts. All the healthy countries in the world are eating much more fiber, and it's also diverse fiber. It's lots of different things. It's not just having kale.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you came on the podcast last time, you said something which I found to be quite daunting, which was this idea of trying to get 30 plants into my diet a week. You've brought some food with you today for me-
- TSTim Spector
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that you say can help me with this. Jack, could you grab the food that Tim brought with him today? So, you brought this jar of what looks like a bunch of nuts and seeds.
- 15:55 – 19:25
🥗 Gut Microbe Boosters for Overall Well-being!
- TSTim Spector
there's about 10 different types of nut and seed in there, that each time I see some packet of mixed nuts or I find something new in a, in a shop, I add it to that jar and I keep it full, mix it around, and that's what I throw on my yogurt and kefir in the morning, or I would put on my salad, uh, at lunch. And that basically is a, a hack that instantly gets me 10 plants for my week. So, you're saying how hard it is to get to 30 plants. Well, just by doing that, you've got, uh, you've only got 20 to go. And so, you see, uh, you're a third of the way just by having a few hacks like that, which incidentally also gives you your protein. Okay? So, rather than your protein shakes and your whatever, handful of that, um, you've got, you know, significant amounts of, of protein. But the important thing for this is, the 30 plants, people forget that a plant doesn't have to be, doesn't look like spinach or kale. It can be a nut and a seed, which are so nutrient-dense and so useful that they will keep whole colonies of hundreds or thou- thousands of different microbes happy in your gut, munching on the different chemicals in there, and they're very high in fiber, very high in protein.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was gonna say about the fiber thing, this is a, this is a way to get the fiber as well.
- TSTim Spector
Absolutely, yes. So, they're high f- high fiber and high protein, and that's why they are, are so nutritious, and why, if you're having this sort of stuff, you really don't need, uh, chemical supplements. And so, th- that's, uh, that's just one of several hacks about how you can add these to your foods very easily, as well as, you know, mentally just thinking, "I wanna try and find, uh, add different things to my, my meal. I don't wanna have the same meal every single day." People get stuck going to, you know, their local, uh, sandwich shop and saying, "I'm only having that prawn salad. Prawn salad, prawn salad, prawn..." You know, just think every day, go with something different, and if people start thinking differently about food-... not only does it excite the taste buds a bit more and gets you out of your rut, but it's also gonna generate many more microbes. So, you know, if you're gonna beat me-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
... you need to be getting more diversity in there to, to grow more species so that you can, uh, you know, keep them all happy. And they, they live, you know, they live off diversity and variety just as we humans do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, when I got my ZOE results back, I... one of the, uh, the PDF shows all the bugs in my stomach. Is that what you call them, bugs? (laughs) Or should we have a more technical-
- TSTim Spector
Uh, bugs or micr- microbes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Let's call them microbes then, uh, just because it makes me sound smarter. So all the microbes in my, in my belly, and I had a very narrow group of microbes. Now, if I ex- you're telling me that if I expand that collection of microbes, my overall health will be better, I'll process my food better, my mental health will be better. Is there anything I'm, I'm missing from that list?
- TSTim Spector
Your immune health would be better, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- TSTim Spector
... immunity would be better, so you'd get less food allergies, you'd get, um, uh, resistance to infection would be better.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So how do I bring... I know this sounds like super, stupid question to ask, but I looked at that list and thought, okay, so I almost thought of it like little pets living inside me. Um, the, where do these, where do
- 19:25 – 22:21
💏 How Close Contact Enhances Gut Immunity!
- SBSteven Bartlett
I get the new pets from? Like the new animals from, to put inside my body? Because I c- I was thinking my girlfriend's got loads of them, I'll just kiss her. (laughs)
- TSTim Spector
Yes. Well, you, well, you could kiss your girlfriend and, you, there is quite a lot of swapping between partners, by the way, in microbes, so you're not wrong there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
But unless they had something to eat, they'd die off, okay? So what you're doing is-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ah.
- TSTim Spector
... um, you know, we are continually surrounded by many of these microbes. We are swapping, uh, microbes with all our close friends and family all the time. But, uh, unless you've got the fertilizer in you, they're not gonna survive. A- and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the fertilizer is diversity of foods?
- TSTim Spector
Yes. And you may have, and, you know, you've kissed your girlfriend, you've got some of her microbes, and they're just sitting there waiting for, to be fed, right? They might be in a very dormant state. Many of these microbes can go into spore formation and stay there for years doing nothing in tiny amounts. And they only wake up when, you know, a peanut hits them on the head or something and says, "Oh," you know, "Steven's given me some food at last," you know. "This, I can eat this, I couldn't eat the other. I can't eat Nando's. I'm going for this." So that's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Makes sense.
- TSTim Spector
... the concept, that you want to give them this rich soil so that they can flourish. And you can gain microbes from going to other countries, you know, eating a variety of foods, and there are, uh, microbes that live on a lot of fresh produce, uh, that you can get. You get them from dogs, uh, animals, um, just by having a pet around the house or going to the countryside you can get more microbes in you. But it's, it's, a lot of them are actually inside us waiting, and places like our appendix may, may be sources of tiny amounts of these microbes that are just waiting, you know, for the right signal to wake up.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think this is fascinating. I looked at the back end of our YouTube channel, and it says that since this channel started, 69.9% of you that watch it frequently haven't yet hit the subscribe button. So I have a favor to ask you. If you've ever watched this channel and enjoyed the content, if you're enjoying this episode right now, please could I ask a small favor? Please hit the subscribe button. Helps this channel more than I can explain, and I promise if you do that, to return the favor, we will make this show better and better and better and better and better. That's a promise I'm willing to make to you if you hit the subscribe button. Do we have a deal? I, after our last conversation, was always going through the supermarket trying to figure out what's fermented and what's not. How do I know what's fermented? What does fermented even mean? Um, and you brought this array of things with you to show me how easy it is to ferment things in your own home, I guess?
- TSTim Spector
Yeah, I think people are frightened by fermentation and it's important to know what it is and what it isn't. So fermentation is a word, has lots of different meanings, but it's when food is modified by microbes
- 22:21 – 29:19
🍅 Transforming Waste Food for Gut and Health!
- TSTim Spector
to produce something that is, tastes different, tastes better, and is also healthy for you. And in a way it's a probiotic food, because what we're doing is we're taking basic whole foods and we are adding something like salt or sugar and that then allows natural, uh, microbes on those plants to flourish and change the composition of tho- for that food. So they make it acidic, they get rid of all the bad bugs, and they make it into something super healthy and all the microbes are growing just like they would be in your gut if you fed them. So it's like a, a mini version of your gut is what we're seeing here, um, and it's incredibly easy to do. So that's why I brought this stuff along so that we, I, I can demonstrate not only how to get extra plants into your 30 a week, but also if those plants are fermented, they have many more times more nutrients in them, and the fact that those bugs have been working on them means they've been, uh, in a way, pre-digested before they get into your gut. And all these studies are showing these are super good for all aspects of your health, and if you can have, uh, several portions of these a day, you'll really s- notice the difference.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So for people that are just listening on audio and can't see, what have we got in front of you here?
- TSTim Spector
So we've got, uh, a jar, uh, like a, like a one liter jar of which is full of, uh, chopped veg from, uh, the bottom of my fridge. All of us would have fridges like this where you've got odds and ends left behind, and the idea is that you sh- rather than throwing it away, you can actually just chop it up...... and ferment it and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Stick it in a jar. And there is, I can see cabbage, I can see a radish in there. It's just like the- the waste veg that most people would probably chuck in the bin.
- TSTim Spector
Exactly. So a few years ago, I'd have just thrown this in the bin. I wouldn't have thought about doing it. So you, you throw it out. People have heard about sauerkraut, which is basically just, um, fermented cabbage. And you might have heard of kimchi-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
... which is the Korean version, which has just got a few more things in it, like chilies and ginger and spices. Uh, and this is a sort of mixture of all of them, but it's just to illustrate the fact that you can ferment virtually all plants and avoid the waste. And that's what our ancestors did before fridges 'cause w- all you need to do is, uh, put them in a jar and squash them down and add 2% salt and a little bit of water to cover it, and that's all you do. And I- I can, I can just demonstrate that now for you if you like.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Please.
- TSTim Spector
So we've got all these in here. And the idea is you, um, add so- add the salt. So we're adding 2% salt. This is really important to measure it. So this- that's the only thing really tricky is to make sure that you've got, uh, 2% salt, and that gets poured in there. And you, you would mix it around. Uh, I would normally put it in a big bowl and do it. But, uh, you, you get the- the idea here. You, you, you put the salt in, you mix it around, and you scrunch it down really hard. So, you know, like, um, really getting rid of any o- space for air-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- TSTim Spector
... because the microbes don't like air. The ones that ferment, they're called anaerobic, they don't like oxygen. And so they grow really well when you cut out the oxygen. And they can just, um, live off, start eating the sugars in, in the, in these plants. And the salt gives them a competitive advantage against nasty microbes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- TSTim Spector
So that means that they can out-compete the other guys 'cause it's suddenly a different environment, and that's what we're doing. So you squash it down. And, um, I'm gonna add a little bit of water. Sometimes you don't need to add hardly any water. And if you add more than a bit, just add a little bit of salt to that water, just enough to cover it 'cause the microbes are naturally in all these plants. People don't realize that. They think, "Oh, it must be sterile. I've got it from a nice supermarket in a plastic wrapper." Um, it's full of microbes, and that's normal. And we know that even in garlic, for example, even when you cut it, there are perhaps, uh, 10, 20 different types of microbe living in that garlic. And once they- they sense the water and the salt, they will suddenly say, "Oh, it's good to come out. I can out-compete. I can grow. I can start munching the, the, the sugar." And then to pack it down, you either use, you can use some stones, some clean stones. What I like to do is use some leftover waste. Um, so I get some outside cabbage leaves or something else from a, a plant and just put it down in there, squash it. And so you can see that it's now below the waterline.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
And I close the lid, and that's basically it. And I would leave that for a minimum of three days somewhere room temperature, out of the sun. And you'll start to see bubbles forming, and that's CO2. The microbes are producing that. They're fermenting it. That's it. You've got suddenly your own probiotic fermented food made from your scraps rather than throwing it out. And that's, that's a great example of what you can do, um, to really improve your health with something that costs nothing, uh, apart from the price of salt.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's one you made earlier. (laughs)
- TSTim Spector
Yeah, this is a nicer looking one that's, uh, wha- what I, I did earlier. And I, I just wanna say, you can see a few bubbles there. Uh, it's, it's just starting to, to get going. Um, and, uh, you can open it up, uh, every day or so to give it a smell and see what's happening, making sure that it's packed down so that it's all below the waterline. Once you've done this, uh, once it's fermented after a week, uh, you can put it in the fridge for months.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, really? So you could put that in the frid- fridge for months and you could-
- TSTim Spector
Once... Yeah, once it's fermented, the, it's become acidic and the pH has dropped below 4.5, no other microbes can live there, only the ones you want, you've selected personally. These are your probiotic microbes that we know are good for your health. And the difference between this and your probiotic capsule is that you'll probably get 30 different microbes here. Whereas you take your capsule, you might get two or three. So this is why fermented foods, I think, are a real answer to many of our problems. You know, the fact that we've got a rather Western-deprived microbiome, these could really help, um, people like you who want to boost your gut microbiome and just introducing these fermented foods into your regular diet. And this is what the Koreans
- 29:19 – 37:03
🍣 Kimchi and Miso Magic: Ancient Wisdom for Modern Gut Health!
- TSTim Spector
do, for example, you know, the Japanese do by using s- fermented soybeans in nearly all their foods. And so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And wha- when you-
- TSTim Spector
... many of the healthiest populations have large amounts of fermented food in their diets.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you look at the Japanese and the Koreans, do they have better gut microbiomes than the people in the UK and the US?
- TSTim Spector
Yes, they do. And they, and importantly, they live much longer and have, uh, much less of our, uh, chronic diseases or they sort of delay those problems by at least 10 years. So I think we need to learn from the, the populations that are doing it right. And this is a really easy, uh, thing to do. And I think it's, it's a great exercise in, in teaching 'cause if you think of what's going on, it's, this is mirroring what's going on inside your gut. If you had that rich diversity of, of plants in there, you can get many microbes to, um, to, to proliferate. And once you start seeing the bubbles forming and the, the, the amazing change in taste and texture you're getting, you, you gotta remember this is the difference between a grape-... and an amazing, uh, vintage red wine. It's just the effect of those microbes, in fact, you know, on, on that grape skin, just changing over time, increasing their complexity, and producing chemicals. It all, it's basically a sort of chemistry lesson.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I'm in the supermarket, there are lots of things that now have labels on them saying that they're great for gut health, or they're low sugar, or they're low fat. I brought everything that I could find in the supermarket that was making a claim that it was good for me, and I want you to take a look, look at it. These are some of the most popular things that people pick up in the supermarket that make these claims that they're low sugar, low fat, low, high protein, great for gut health. So, the first one I've got here is Actimel, which ha- says it's got vitamin D, B6, it's great for immune support, zero added sugar, 0% fat, (bang) rich in vitamin D. That, Tim Spector, is definitely (bang) healthy.
- TSTim Spector
Or not.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- TSTim Spector
So, um, yeah. These, these claims, uh, eh, uh, some of these claims they're allowed to put on the packet. They're s- very restricted to what they can actually say in terms of health it can do are, date back, you know, 30 years, and, uh, no longer really valid. But they, they have to do it because they're not allowed to even mention the word probiotic on a, on a packet, interestingly. So, they're trying to attract you in with things that would resonate with the consumer, so they do these massive surveys just saying, "What's gonna resonate with you, Steven, when you go into a shop?" Oh, and you say, "Oh, what's gonna, what's gonna make me buy this rather than one of the other ones?" And so, vitamin D, we've been flogging vitamin D for forever. Uh, you know, 10 minutes in the sun will get you all the vitamin D you need, um, and it's in most foods anyway. You don't really need it in addition in these things. Uh, naught percent added sugar and naught percent added fat mean that it's highly processed. So, the combination of health, what we call health halos, um, saying it's super healthy with, uh, rich in this vitamin, le- no sugar, no fat, um, is very old-fashioned science. No one believes that that zero fat is any good for you anymore, and there's some actual data showing that low fat foods actually, uh, make you overeat.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- TSTim Spector
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What does the data say?
- TSTim Spector
So, when they've compar- compared id- sort of identical, uh, meals to people in lab conditions, those eating the low fat foods, the, um, high carb but high processed foods like this will actually overeat substantially over the next, uh, day or so. So, it's actually making you overeat, uh, quite significantly. So... And there's no advantage to your body in terms of heart health by having this, because to get zero fat and make it taste good, it's gotta have lots of extra sugars and starches in there. Otherwise, you, you, you just couldn't eat it. Fat is really important, naturally, to make you enjoy food.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
And so it takes a lot of careful chemistry to mimic that fat. So, I would always avoid anything that said, you know, zero sugar, zero fat, uh, rich in vitamins, despite the fact that this probably has some good probiotics in it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
So, you're getting the good probiotics, um, it's only one, uh, lactobacillus, but that's counteracted by all this negative stuff, all these chemicals which we know are bad for your gut microbiome. So, that's not, uh, gonna be good for you, or it's not gonna be good for me either. So, I would av- avoid that one. Always go for any yogurt that really has minimum contents, just milk and microbes. That's all you need.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can you bring me the bin? This is going in the bin. Think I'll just drop that (thudding) in the bin. I did scan it on the Zoe app as well, and my relationship to it was about 35, which is not...
- TSTim Spector
Which is not a health food.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which is not a health food. What about this? This is definitely healthy, Dr. Tim Spector. Activia, "Deliciously good for your gut health." Okay, so I know this one's gonna be good. Um, what else does it say? "We believe that a happy gut is a happy you. When you love your gut, it loves you back." It sounds like you wrote it. (laughs) What else, what other claims does it make? "We ferment our unique blend of five active strain, strains for up to eight hours, so every little pot is packed with billions of live cultures. Loving the planet to love our gut." (bang) Activia, great for the gut (bang) , healthy.
- TSTim Spector
Well, so far, you know, everything looks, everything looks good, doesn't it? Um, but let's have a look and see what extra things they've added to it, um, which is always hard to find in packets, and you, you often need a microscope to see them. Um, so for, for it to be good, it just needs microbes and milk, and that makes yogurt. You just change the temperature, that's what you get. So here we've got, um, lots of, we've got lots of ingredients. We've got flavorings, we've got concentrates, we've got a bit of carrot for some reason, we've got lemon juice, we've got stabilizers, uh, we've got tapioca starch, we've got sugars, and, uh, it claims to have strawberries. Although, when they last were picked from the earth, I'm not quite sure. So, um, it's not as bad as the other one, but basically, we're, we're looking at a, a highly processed product that has many chemicals you don't really want in your gut, 'cause they will counteract the good effect of the gut microbes. Slightly better than the other one-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
... but I would still n- not eat it myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.And the fact that it's processed, does the fact that it's processed alone make it a bad food or is it because the process of processing causes a loss in the good stuff and addition of a lot of bad stuff? When we say pro- because this word processed foods has become just like a blanket term. So in my brain I go, if it's processed it has to be bad.
- TSTim Spector
Well-
- SBSteven Bartlett
But is that accurate?
- TSTim Spector
Well, we need to separate pro- virtually all the food that we eat, and I eat as well, is processed.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- TSTim Spector
But, um, we need to separate that from
- 37:03 – 42:45
🍩 Processed vs. Ultra-Processed: Understanding Harmful Additives For Each!
- TSTim Spector
ultra-processed. So plain yogurt, nothing added, nothing, you know, changed is processed because you're mixing a basic ingredient, milk, with microbes. You're, you're actually creating something.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
That's processing. But it's when you take it to the next stage and you would make that same product from say milk powder, uh, and then you would add various starches and stabilizers, emulsifiers, concentrates, artificial sweeteners, flavorings, that same yogurt becomes ultra-processed. And it's that extra step that is the main problem.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
Nothing wrong with processed food. Uh, uh, you know, cheese is processed. There's nothing wrong with that. Most of the foods we, we eat are some have had salt added or oil added or something like that. But it's when it's chemicals that you don't find in your kitchen being added to s- to foods that have been stripped of all their goodness. So they wouldn't just use cow's milk, it would be, you know, dried extract of casein or, um, uh, you wouldn't take wheat, it would be the, uh, stripped out inner part of that wheat and then that's temperature treated to melt it and, and change its composition. And to put those things back together you need all these glues like these emulsifiers, uh, you need stabilizers, you need, um, uh, flavorings, sweeteners, colorants, all these extra things to make it look like food again. So I think we shouldn't be calling ultra-processed food food, that's a misnomer. Uh, we should call them, you know, edible food-like substances that are industrially made. And if we start to realize the difference between these, we can start to make smart food choices. We now know that many of these ingredients, there's been lots of even research since we last talked about, um, first of all, things like aspartame has come out as ... which is an artificial sweetener, has been linked to many health problems including increased risk of cancers and, uh, heart disease. We've got emulsifiers have come out, uh, recently in a number of studies to show that they affect mental health, and they also affect heart disease. Even when you adjust for the whole diet and you take just that component of the food. So we know that ultra-processed foods are, you know, probably the worst things we're doing for our diets. And then in the UK, uh, the average person is saying about 60% of all their food is ultra-processed without knowing about it. We're eating four times more than, uh, healthy European countries who are often poorer than us. So it's not just a question of money, it's just become this battle of us poor consumers against these massive companies with billions of pounds to spend on marketing that have told us this stuff is healthy 'cause of these fake health halos, vitamins, you know, no sugar, no this, no fat, confusing the consumer and all the time giving us foods that not only make give us disease but importantly make us overeat.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
So we, we pick that stuff, doesn't matter it's ... so it's just wh- whether ... even if it's just low fat or it's got lots of other chemicals, both make you overeat by a quarter. So you'll be hungrier after eating that than you would be if you had a completely plain yogurt with none of those extra chemicals in it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay. So I've got three different drink-like foods here. I've got my Oasis citrus punch. Um, on this one it says natural flavorings and real fruit. So that must be healthy. Real fruit.
- TSTim Spector
If it says real fruit on it, you should be very suspicious. Okay? That's the first thing to, to look at it. Uh, and natural flavors, that really means nothing. And this is ... uh, natural is a great word, means nothing, uh, medically, scientifically, but it's been a, a buzzword for m- getting people to buy stuff. So basically this is, uh, a mixed blend of citrus fruits which means the mixtures of all kinds of different, uh, fruit extracts that's combined with sugar and artificial sweeteners. They're again highly processed fruits, they're not fresh fruits. And it's got a mixture of those, uh, it's got citric acid, it's got sugar, orange flavorings, uh, it's got stabilizers, uh, polyphosphates, glyceryl esters, uh, it's got, um, looks like wood resins, um, acidity regulators, uh, preservatives, it's got some potassium sorbate, potassium benzoate, it's got the sweeteners aspartame and, uh, ace K. Uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Aspartame's what you were just talking about, right?
- TSTim Spector
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Aspartame.
- TSTim Spector
That's the one the WHO have just put on their, uh, warning list. Um, so yes, it's, it's packed with things that you wouldn't expect if you just squeezed a bit of juice, uh, in, and thought it was healthy. So this is a good example of, um, a totally fake ultra-processed food that makes it look like it's real fruit and is gonna be healthy for you, and it is just a mix of chemicals that's just gonna mess up your gut microbes and make you
- 42:45 – 46:15
🍫 Smart Snacking
- TSTim Spector
feel hungrier.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay. But this one here, this Philadelphia, says light. So it says, "100% of the taste but 40% less fat." So Philadelphia Light, surely that's good?
- TSTim Spector
Well, it's, it's got cheese in it and it's often have this ... We did do some tests on this a while ago, it do- does have microbes in it. If it's low in fat, they've generally added something else to increase the mouth feel. And indeed, we see here it's got stabilizers, it's got emulsifiers, uh, all these things that we know, uh, have effects on your gut. Microbes make you hungrier and can affect your heart as well. So, yeah, I- I would, uh, avoid that one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, do we have to ... I've got a few last things for you there. What do we have to look out for on the packaging of these products? Because interestingly, the one you have in your hand, the bar there, the snack bar-
- TSTim Spector
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... on the back of it, they do admit that it's a little bit processed. They actually ... There's a sentence on the back of it, I'll read, read out. It says, um ... I was reading it as you said it. It says, "Well," cl- um, "Well, clearly it would be wrong for us to claim that everything in this bar is a 100% natural and simply grows on trees. Obviously, some ingredients need to be cleaned, dried and roasted too, and therefore, to some extent, processed. It's just that we believe the less we mess with it, the better it tastes. That's why we never add any artificial flavors or colors or any preservatives."
- TSTim Spector
Yeah. Well-
- SBSteven Bartlett
In the natural bar. And the ingredients-
- TSTim Spector
At least, you know, that's a good thing to say. It's quite hard to produce some of these snack bars without having things to stick it together, or gums. Or m-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Glucose syrup, soya protein, cr- crispies, isolate, tapioca starch, salt, dates, almonds, salt- salted caramel, muscovado sugar, buttermilk powder, natural flavorings, cream powder, milk, rice flour, carboflouran salt.
- TSTim Spector
Yeah. It doesn't ... When you read it out like that, it doesn't sound quite as natural as the, uh, label suggests, does it? 'Cause you just got all these ingredients that are, you know, again, half of them you wouldn't find in your, in your kitchen. Um, no- and it's partly to, you know, protein packed. Um, you know, if it was ... If you just need the nuts and the seeds, you wouldn't have to add in all this, uh, other stuff from soy and, and other beans and things-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
... which are ultra-processed. They're just taking that bit of it, combining it together. So some of these are better than others, um, but, um, again, this is ultra-processed and, you know, th- these, all these snacks interestingly, are really often the downfall in, in, in places like the US and the UK where we're just eating so many, so much our, our energy is coming from these snacks, which wasn't the case 20 years ago.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So on that point of snacking, is snacking good or bad and what impact does that have on the overall nutritional, um, profile of an individual? Because a lot of people snack, right? Nearly everybody snacks.
- TSTim Spector
I think that's right. O- over 90% of people snack. So it's become normal to snack in this, in this country, in the US, uh, it is the norm. It's not the norm in other countries. So you can see much less snacking habits in Southern Europe, uh, than you do here, and much less in, uh, many Asian countries as well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A ZOE study found that 95% of people were snackers.
- 46:15 – 50:26
🕰️ Healthier Habits: Transforming Snacking for Overall Wellness!
- SBSteven Bartlett
- TSTim Spector
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And 25% of people are undoing the benefits of healthy meals by unhealthy snacking.
- TSTim Spector
Yeah. So 95% of people we found in that ZOE study is- are snackers, and most of them are unhealthy. So just by reaching for a snack, unless you're really careful, you're gonna be having not only extra calories, but unhealthy calories that's gonna undo many of the good things you're, you're eating. So we found in the ZOE survey that people would be really focusing on their main meal saying, "This is a really healthy meal. I'm having plenty of plants and veg-" But, "Oh, well, I've gotta have my snack." And so they'd be undoing all that good by having something that would then, uh, a couple of hours later really upset, um, their metabolism and make them hungrier, and so mess up the i- the idea and make them hungrier. So we ... In the UK and the US, it's around a quarter of our calories come from snacks. If we were able to even to reduce that a bit or just change that snack to a healthy one, or ideally, move that snacking time to the meal itself, most of these would be much less harmful if you had them at the end of your meal when your body is, you know, starting to do all this work, breaking down the food, it's gearing up for this high activity. Virtually all the snacks that people have late in the evening are bad for you. And that's because you're getting a sugar spike just before going to bed, your body's not ready for it, your gut microbes are not ready for it, it doesn't give them a rest, and so you actually end up hungrier the next day. So we're starting to realize that it's not just the food, and we've seen that most of these snacks are very unhealthy, gonna make you hungrier, but the timing of it also messes up your circadian rhythms, so you're not recovering, and the next day you're gonna feel hungrier than you were if you didn't snack. So it's like counterintuitive. You think, "Oh, if I have something before I go to bed, I'm not gonna be as hungry tomorrow," and this is what many people get into this, this common mistake. So we need to start changing people's attitude, uh, in, in, in this snack epidemic about snacks, and say, you know, "You don't need them. Um, and if you do, have healthy ones." And, you know, nuts and seeds and fruit are perfectly healthy ones. And we showed in our, in our study which we published recently, that people who do have those healthy snacks are really, uh, hardly any extra-... risk of, uh, health problems, um, compared to those who p- don't snack, as long as it's not late at night. So, if you eat within that sort of normal eating window and you, you know- some people are natural snackers. I don't know if... I'm not, but I know many of my colleagues at ZOE, uh, can't go two or three hours without eating. They really find it hard. And, but just by thinking more about that snack and saying, "Well, I'm gonna... I, I know I've got this tendency. I'm gonna eat something that's healthy." I'm not-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like nuts or something?
- TSTim Spector
Yeah. Just a handful of mixed nuts, uh, an apple, a pear, um, something that's not super sugary or super fat, but importantly, not ultra-processed. Not something that's got this health halo that says, "Eat me. I've got high in protein. I'm gonna..." You know, "Eat me and you'll get bigger muscles." Uh, no. Eat me and you'll get fatter.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Those health halos then, what are, just so we've summarized them, low fat is a health halo, you're saying? No sugar, real fruit. I'm trying to remember all the ones, um-
- TSTim Spector
Extra vitamins.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Vitamin labeling on, on products. Um, natural flavorings, I think it said.
- TSTim Spector
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the products. Those, are those the main ones? Have I missed any there?
- TSTim Spector
I think we've covered... Yeah. So, claims about low fat, low sugar, uh, nothing artificial.
- SBSteven Bartlett
High protein, you were saying.
- TSTim Spector
Natural.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- TSTim Spector
Uh, high protein. Um, some would be gut-friendly. Um,
- 50:26 – 57:11
🍞 Is Bread Really That Bad For Me?
- TSTim Spector
generally they're warning signs that this food is to be avoided. Find something that doesn't need that health claim. You never see a whole, uh, real food with a health claim. They don't need it. You got an apple? Doesn't need a claim. You know, "Contains vitamins, contains, uh, fiber." Real foods don't need health labels.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've had a confused relationship with bread. I, I look at bread, all bread, I think, "That's bad. This is cheating on my gut microbiome." Is that the truth? Is bread bad?
- TSTim Spector
Most bread is bad. Most supermarket bread is ultra-processed sugar and contains many other chemicals you don't really want in you, makes you hungrier, and the general perception of the public is it's a healthy food. I found this myself when I started doing my glucose levels. Even brown breads were all over the place. There are some breads that I can eat in small amounts that are still healthy, things like rye breads, and if it's sourdough, that also improves it. But I think in general, we're eating far too much bread, for most people. There might be some people who can support it, and that's why it's good to test your glucose responses to it. But most bread has too much sugar, not enough fiber, too many, uh, chemicals in it, and, uh, we should be looking to other things for our nutrition. Have it as a rare treat. Have it just when you go to a restaurant or whatever. But for most people, you know, it's, it's a real red flag for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The other red flag that shocked me was my relationship with white rice because I'd grown up eating white rice, and I thought white rice was a great thing to have after I'd been to the gym with some chicken. So, I, I used to... I... Whenever I had... saw white rice, I thought it was great. And then I looked on ZOE and I had a 15 out of 100 relationship with white rice, and I think my girlfriend had a 5 out of 100 relationship with white rice. So, I no longer have white rice. I've swapped it out for, uh, I think quinoa is usually what we have in the house now.
- TSTim Spector
Well, nearly any grain is better than r- white rice. It's got more fiber, it's got more protein in it, it's got more nutrients in it. And rice is the most overrated food, I think, even more so than bread because, yeah, people think it's healthier than, you know, having potatoes or pasta. They associate it with healthy things because often, sometimes the rest of the meal is actually quite good.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
And, uh, you know, vegetable curries or whatever it is, often quite healthy. But the rice itself is really just sugar, and there's, there's no... Have it as a rare treat, but so many other grains you can have instead, quinoas, barley, oats, um, uh, you know, or even putting in lentils or legumes, you know, beans instead of that rice just makes it so much healthier.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. I discovered a product which has changed my life called Eight Sleep. This product, Eight Sleep, which are a sponsor of this podcast, has been a revelation in my life because the Eight Sleep pod cover, which is basically a fitted sheet that goes over your mattress, controls the temperature of your bed throughout the night and it follows nature's natural rhythm. It starts cool, gets colder while you go into different phases of sleep, and then heats up slightly as you wake up in the morning, which is effectively guiding you to have a deeper, more restorative sleep. Go to EightSleep.com, which is E-I-G-H-T Sleep.com/Steven, and if you do that, you'll save $150 on the pod cover that I have on my bed, the one I'm talking about. Grab your pod cover, send me a DM, and let me know how you get on. When you talk about your habits being so important, i.e. when you're eating and what you're eating and making sure that you carve out time to have your meals, because I was telling you earlier, I think before we started recording now, I'm in a bit of a pattern at the moment of eating my first meal of the day at like 4:00 PM or 5:00 PM, because if I'm recording podcasts or I'm doing something in the media or on TV, I don't like to eat before then. Um, what is an example of great food habits? I wanna know what y- what your food habits are. On a perfect day, say, you know, this was your 10 out of 10 day, when would you eat? How many meals would you eat? And what times would, would and wouldn't you eat?
- TSTim Spector
Okay. So, like you, I have very busy days where sometimes it goes out the window, and I think we've got to realize that you gotta try and this sort of 80/20 ideal, you know, you're trying to stick to something 80% of the time knowing that 20% it's out of your control, don't worry about it. And if you do that, you can do that sustainably for decades.... right? It's the people who are obsessed and say, "I mustn't break it, and if you've broken it one day, okay-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
... end, end of my brilliant experiment." That's daft. So, if I'm at home, for example, working at home, I'm in control of things, I will not eat anything before 11 o'clock. I will have a black coffee, 'cause I know, um, that wakes me up and I like it and it's also good for me. But I won't have anything else until 11 o'clock. I'll go down and I fix myself my bowl of, uh, full fat, uh, yogurt, and I put my diversity jar, sprinkle it in there, and I'd see what else is in the fridge. So, I might have some berries if they're around at the moment, plenty of seasonal berries. Might get some from the freezer if, uh, we're in the mid- you know, i- we're in March or something, there's no, no fresh berries. Uh, or I might just chop up an apple and put it in there. I'm getting my protein, I'm getting, uh, fat, you know, uh, I- I'm not feeling hungry, uh, and having a, a dip in energy in the middle of the day that I, I would probably have if I hadn't eaten anything.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You said coffee, "I have my coffee because I know it's good for me." Last time we spoke, you were kind of on the fence about coffee. You had two trains of thought about whether it's good for us or not. You're now saying you think it's good for us.
- TSTim Spector
Yeah, well, I must've given the wrong impression to you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- TSTim Spector
... but, uh, coffee is definitely a health food.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- TSTim Spector
Okay? Um, there are some people who don't tolerate it very well, they don't tolerate the caffeine, a few percent of people. But even if you have decaf coffee that's decent quality, 'cause there's different ways of taking the, the caffeine out, all the studies are now showing consistently that, uh, you will have less heart disease and you'll live longer if you, uh, drink coffee and, uh, having sort of between one and four cups of coffee a day. That seems to be the sweet spot. Bit more than that, you've probably got some problem. You know, that, coffee is actually a fermented plant, so people don't think of it that way, they think, "Oh, it just comes in a jar, you know, I don't need to worry about it." But actually, you know, it comes off a, a tree,
- 57:11 – 1:01:53
☕ Coffee On Our Health
- TSTim Spector
you get this pod, this bean, um, you take it off, you break it up, it then gets fermented on the floor of usually, you know, wherever it is, in Africa or Asia, where, where it is and it's humid, the microbes are working on it, breaking it down. Then you go and dry it and, uh, roast it and that ends up being the coffee we have. So, the microbes are playing a role in that. It's also a source of fiber. So, three cups of coffee gives you around five grams of fiber, which is about a quarter of your, uh, the average UK or US amount. So, you know, it's not the main source of fiber, but it all helps, and in the US it's often the main source of fiber, uh, that they get. So, polyphenols, the fiber, um, also for many people it gets them awake and alert, has that effect of stopping tiredness. So, if you, if you're careful with it, you don't overdose on it, and you know it doesn't give you heart fluctuations, it's gonna be actually beneficial for you long term. So, this is a great example of, uh, a food that we've totally changed our minds on over the years. I initially, my first research paper I ever wrote was that, um, coffee causes cancer, okay? So, when I was, uh, I was actually a medical student and I was very proud of my paper and this is great, and it was based on very poor studies done in the 1980s and it was completely rubbish. Um, so I'm very happy that, to go and correct that mistake and tell people that, you know, you should, much better to drink coffee than, say, orange juice.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- TSTim Spector
And orange juice is, tends to be in the health section, and coffee definitely in the sort of recreational, uh, section. And they really should be changed over. Most orange juice we have is ultra-processed, high sugar, very bad for most people. Coffee is good for the vast majority of people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What else have you been wrong about? What else have you changed your mind about over the last couple of years because of the research that you now have, you know, the data you now have access to and the research that you've done?
- TSTim Spector
Uh, well, I, I was keen to avoid fats for a long time. Um, I cut back on cheese 'cause I thought that's high in saturated fats, that can't be good for you. I would've bought low fat products before, um, and so th- most doctors were indoctrinated with that, many doctors are still in that mindset that fat is bad and car- you know, carbs and starch are good. Um, drinking lots of water was good for you, and I now, having researched it for the book, know there's no hard data that you should be drinking eight, um, glasses of water for example a day, which is what most of the, uh, recommended government sites tell you. And obviously the drinks industry is very keen to support that because, you know, the big companies like the Cokes, the Pepsis have moved into the water business and they're trying to sell everyone plastic bottled water, which is terrible for the planet. The idea that, uh, we're all deprived of hydration and having all kinds of problems with it, is, is really made up. There's no hard evidence at all, and if you look at, um, doctors who work on marathons, they see that far more people die or have health problems from over-hydrating in, uh, in marathon races th- than dehydrating. So, the human body is really good at some things, you know, you think about our ancestors.... they kinda knew when you were thirsty, right? (laughs) It's like, hang on, this is quite a r- you know. And the idea that, "Oh, we've got no idea if we're thirsty or not. Um, we need to be eating, you know, have a stopwatch to tell us to drink every hour on the hour," is obviously nonsense when you think about it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's so true. My, um, for my birthday just gone, someone brought me this massive, like... what's a way to describe it-
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... barrel water bottle and it has, like, eight liters marked on the side of it. And they said to me when they gave it to me, "You need to drink that every day." And so the idea was that I put it on my desk as a reminder that I need to drink (laughs) that whole barrel before I finish work.
- TSTim Spector
Oh, I mean, you just think about it, well, you know, we've been evolving for millions of years and, you know, you can't live long without water.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- 1:01:53 – 1:09:55
🚰 The "8 glasses of water a day" myth
- SBSteven Bartlett
- TSTim Spector
Um, (laughs) so clearly we've got a pretty good mechanism we've inherited to tell us when we need to drink water and when we don't. And I- I- I just think that's a, again, marketing, uh, concept. All the soft drink, the, you know, all this rehydration, these electrolytes, all this stuff, it's- it's largely nonsense, and it's just, you know, again like the protein marketing idea is that, uh... and we're very susceptible to it 'cause we like a- a quick fix or... and there'll be a few people that say, "I feel better when I drink lots of water." Sure, you know, but the idea that, uh, we're so out of control that, you know, someone needs to bring us water every hour, uh, is madness. And that there is, you know, there isn't this variation.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We got up to your lunch, so we did your breakfast-
- TSTim Spector
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... sounded nice. Your lunch, what time do you typically eat lunch and what do you typically have on a 10 out of 10 day where everything's going to plan?
- TSTim Spector
(inhales deeply) I mean (sighs) it all varies. Now, you know, I think... I don't wanna give the idea I'm always having the same lunch-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- TSTim Spector
... 'cause I- I do try and vary it. Um, but if I'm on my own working, I'm not with friends or whatever, um, it would be a fairly quick affair and it would probably be a salad, um, and I would get a lettuce or, um, a grated cabbage. I would throw whatever I have in the fridge in there and I would add some protein to it, so I would add some beans. I always keep cans of beans around. They cost nothing, they're a huge source of fiber and protein. Tip those in. They might be lentils, they might be, um, chickpeas, might be standard mixed beans. And, um, I'd put them in. If I had some cheese, I might chop that up. Might put a bit of mozzarella in there, olive oil, um, balsamic vinegar, um, that'd be it. And if I'd had some sauerkraut or something, I might have that on the side, a bit of ferment. And I've increasingly recently, since my... I've been doing more research on this, I might make my salad dressing actually with some fermented milk, some kefir. And you just mix up the oil and vinegar and you just, at the last minute add in your, uh, ferment so you're actually getting probiotics added to that. That- that... if I'm on my own-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
... and I'm in a hurry, that's- that's probably what... yeah. It- it's reasonable.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You'd aim at.
- TSTim Spector
But it would vary depending on what I was taking, what fruits, what vegetables and... yeah, I would have fruit afterwards.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What kind of fruit do you- do you like? I am... I noticed on Z- my Zoe app that bananas rank incredibly low for me. I think my ranking on a banana out of a hundred is 50. Now, I've been eating bananas like a monkey. I've always thought bananas were just fantastic, so I thought unlimited bananas were a great idea until I saw the Zoe app and it said my score is 50 out of a hundred. Now I've eased up on the bananas and I'm having much more berries because I do really well for red berries in particular. In fact, the order that I... the Zoe app had, um, fruits in is raspberries were number one, cherries were number two, strawberries were third, then pears, then peaches, then apples, then kiwis, then blueberries, then grapes, and then bananas were like 10th, 50 out of a hundred.
- TSTim Spector
Well, I scored even worse than you, you'd be pleased to know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, really? (laughs)
- TSTim Spector
So, um, I used to eat lots of bananas and it was the thing you just put in your backpack, comes in its own packaging, you know, you can have it when you want. I thought, "This is super healthy," 'cause I've seen, you know, Roger Federer, um, eat lots of bananas, you know, he seemed pretty fit. Um, and that's the way, w- we associate it with- with a marketing thing, "Oh, lots of potassium, you know, must be good for us." Really, lots of sugar and they're not... they're not great for us. Uh, my score was about 30 or something, so it... so I, uh, I still have them occasionally 'cause I, you know, enjoy them occasionally but I don't have them every day like I used to. So I now swap them out for pears, uh, we have some great pears in this country and they're always good, uh, apples, and, uh, again I'll have my- my berries if- if I've- if I've got them, so. Um, uh, and- and, uh, kiwi fruits. I had to also give up grapes. I used to eat lots of grapes and I used to love them, but you get a huge sugar spike with grapes which I know then, you know, would make me hungrier for the rest of the day. So, um... and I have them as a s- a treat. You know, might have some grapes once a month, that's still fine. So I think we shouldn't ever say, "I'll never have those again."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
It's just like, what's your staple?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
Uh, what do you have most of the time? Should you be swapping that for something just as tasty or nice or a mixture of things? But get out of that rut just 'cause someone told you that, you know, banana's good, it has potassium in it and it'll make you play tennis better. You know, it was... it's that kind of mindset that we- we really need to change and, um ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I guess it depends what else is on the plate. I remember Frederica, who's the head of nutrition at Zoe, um, her telling me that...... the plate itself has its overall score. So, if I had, you know, maybe something that wasn't so good in isolation, but with a couple of other things that are really high-ranking in terms of health and my gut microbiome, then the overall score comes up and it's really the average of the whole plate.
- TSTim Spector
Yeah, it's exactly ... I don't ... we, uh, the idea is we don't wanna demonize one little thing, so you might be obsessed with mayonnaise, for example, you know, and I'd say to you, "Well, you can have a small amount of mayonnaise if it's gonna make you eat a salad."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
And if that salad is high-fiber, nutritious, it's got plenty of good things in it, herbs and s- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, or, you know, a tiny bit of ketchup or whatever, you know, I'd still be saying, "Yeah, you can try something else instead of those. But don't get hung up about it." And I think it's absolutely true that, you know, nutrition has gone into this idea of this, "This is wrong, this gives you cancer, this is, this is bad," and meat is a great example of that debate. You know, people ask me, "Are you, you know, are you for meat? Are you against meat?" Um, and I, I've sort of changed ... I flipped on this as the evidence has changed. I'm definitely against processed meats, ultra-processed meats which are low-quality stuff put together in ready meals, et cetera. You know, you'd be much better off just having mushrooms or let- or beans instead of that mixed with it, a vegetarian version of it. But real high-quality meat in small amounts, nothing really wrong with it as long as you have enough space on the rest of the plate to make up for it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about the carnivore diet? (laughs)
- TSTim Spector
Well, I keep getting, probably like you, you know, people coming to say, you know, "I heard you talking about, um, you know, not eating plants is bad, but I've been living for two years on the carnivore diet. I feel great," you know? And I say, "Fine. There might be one in 10,000 people, uh, that can exist with zero fiber and zero plants," and you know, uh, you know, in, uh, in the, near the North Pole, et cetera, there are people who exist on high-fat and high-protein diets. They've evolved for it. But vast majority of people will suffer greatly by having a denuded gut microbiome, and just eating meat is not what our ancestors did anyway. Um, I've lived with the Hadza tribe for a week, and they eat a lot of vegetables and f- a- and, and fruits and berries and nuts and seeds, and they still ... meat is a treat, and s- three months of the year, they have no meat 'cause it's hard to catch, but they've got all this other stuff. So, the idea that it's natural, that's what we did, is, is really wrong. And some people might feel better briefly. You know, there's a difference between how people respond to, uh,
- 1:09:55 – 1:12:29
🥩 Protein Diets: Finding the Right Balance with Fibre!
- TSTim Spector
fats particularly, uh, and carbs. So you might lose a bit of weight. A lot of that's actually, uh, they've done some studies showing people on high-keto, high fat/protein diets, they'd lose weight quicker-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
... but a lot of it is water.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, okay.
- TSTim Spector
So, they're sort of drying out, and in a way, sometimes bodybuilders do that to make them look more toned, but actually, long-term, they don't lose that, uh, and it comes back. And the main problem is their gut microbes are really crying out for food. So you're starving your gut microbes if you're just on a meat-only diet. So, there's no evidence that that is healthy and lots of evidence that lack of fiber is really bad for you. So remember that statistic we went back to, just a five-gram change in fiber, so if these people, you know, so if the average, uh, is 20 grams a day and a carnivore diet person is on five or less, then y- we're talking, you know, 50% increases in heart disease and reduced longevity. So, you know, people do what they want, but the, the, the data absolutely doesn't support it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Another thing that I have every day is chewing gum, and I was in the car 'cause it's in the center console of, of the car that I, that I'm driven around in, the Diary of a CEO Car we call it, and there's like seven different types of chewing gum. Now, when I eat this chewing gum, it's, there's this explosion of sweetness in my, in the first couple of bites, and I, I, I was thinking the other day as I was driving home, I was thinking, "I think I'm becoming a little bit compulsive." Like w- I didn't need the chewing gum for any other reason, and I think there's this assu- it's doing something in my brain. I grab it, I put one in, ar-ar-ar, I throw it in the bin. I grab another, I put in, ar-ar-ar, I throw it in the bin, and I think I'm just doing it for that sugar burst. My question is broadly about chewing gum, but are these artificial sweeteners that exist in the chewing gums that I'm probably eating worse than just normal sugar?
- TSTim Spector
They're better for your teeth.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- TSTim Spector
So you will get less tooth decay-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- TSTim Spector
... by having the artificial sweeteners, but most of them will be causing problems to your gut microbes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- TSTim Spector
And not e- your mouth microbes as well. So, anything you mess with i- in your mouth and your saliva, things like mouthwashes as well-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- TSTim Spector
... a lot of these artificial ones, they're all shown to reduce your natural gut microbes and actually cause more problems so that you're more prone to infections and actually more prone to get overgrowth of bad microbes
- 1:12:29 – 1:15:35
🍬 Sweeteners Impact: Gut Health and Craving Cycles!
- TSTim Spector
giving you bad breath. So, i- uh, you know, you have this initial hit which th- you know, often mouthwashes are similar in a way to that sort of instant gratification of the chewing gum 'cause it feels fresh and tangy in your, in your mouth, but you're often killing off the good guys that are protecting your, your, your mouth. And the worry I have is about this sweetness is it's, it's sensitizing you to want more sweet foods, so it'll probably make you hungrier for more carb foods later in the day.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
So, I don't think there's anything particularly bad about chewing gum per se-... um, other than if people chew a lot of it, it's sugary, you know, it will give you more, uh, uh, dental decay. But the artificial sweeteners are probably worse because they're having a negative effect on the gut microbe, on the, all the microbes from your mouth down to your gut.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mouthwash. I am a prolific mouthwash user.
- TSTim Spector
Oh, dear.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know, and it, the- (sighs)
- TSTim Spector
They've done actual studies on this to show that, um, you know, yes, customer, consumers like it, you know, so, like, you probably like that feel of being fresh and doing something and having a tang in the mouth, a bit like a, you know, a tangy chewing gum as well. Um, a mint or, you know, there's, there's something nice in the brain that, that says this is good. But if you do it too much, you start to defor- you know, destroy your natural defense mechanism, and microbes in your tongue and your saliva are there to fight off other bugs, and you're more likely to get, um, overgrowth of the wrong ones, and, you know, you may actually end up with worse smelling breath long-term, uh, than if you weren't using these chemicals.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The topics I'm about to throw at you are very complicated, and you're very good at simplifying things. So everything I'm about to throw at you typically has a whole industry of people behind it that have over-complicated it and are selling courses about it and different hacks and tri- tips and tricks. If you could, I would ask you just to give me a simple solution to the things that I'm gonna throw at you. The first one is weight loss.
- TSTim Spector
There's not a simple solution. You have to, m- do something that's sustainable for long periods of time, so forget the idea that it's really important to lose weight over a few weeks. You want something that can maintain your weight at a good level for decades. And if you are, have a problem with- with really excess weight, you're, uh, extremely obese, morbidly obese, um, you need something radical. Diets are not gonna do it. You need one of these new drugs. Um, the, uh, GLP-1s, these injections, the Ozempics, the Wegovys, or you need bariatric surgery to get you down to that level, something dramatic, for most people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you think of those new drugs, the Ozempics and-
- TSTim Spector
I think they're amazing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- TSTim Spector
For people who really need it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about for everybody else?
- TSTim Spector
Not for you. Not for you.
- 1:15:35 – 1:22:13
🏋️ Sustainable Weight Loss: Strategies Beyond Exercise!
- TSTim Spector
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, I've got lots of friends that are in seemingly great shape that are taking these new weight loss drugs, Ozempics and all that stuff.
- TSTim Spector
Well, they're mad.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- TSTim Spector
Th- there are l- lots of side effects that, um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Aren't worth the benefits.
- TSTim Spector
Uh, not the benefits if you have any minor weight problems. Uh, the, the benefits outweigh the risks if you are, uh, so obese that your chances, you know, your 50/50 chance of having a heart disea- heart attack in the next, or a stroke in the next five years. So people with morbid obesity have a worse prognosis than people with cancer. So it's, you know, like, "I've got cancer. What do I do? I'll take a drug. I'll accept that it's got some side effects, but, you know, I want to live." And they do work for the vast majority of people. For people who have only minor, uh, levels of, uh, obesity or just, you know, some love handles or whatever, to cut out your, all your appetite signals in your brain, we don't know what that does long term. And we don't, we do know that it, it has, can affect your pancreas. It can, uh, cause some rare cancers. It can do other stuff to your digestive system that we're still, you know, a long way away from knowing. So it's, it's a drug for the extreme obese problems that we've created through our ultra-processed foods and people with terrible diabetes, et cetera. It is not something for, uh, the general population. So for, for those people, it's firstly improving the quality of your, your diet is number one. So get down from an average of 60% ultra-processed food to something less than 20%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Find a consistent-
- TSTim Spector
It's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... way to ...
- TSTim Spector
That's, that's the first thing to do, and then the next thing is to change your mindset about things. Don't get obsessed with, with calories. Start thinking about eating your 30 plants a week because that will naturally give you all the fiber and, uh, change your appetite signals as well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The fitness community were quite disgruntled last time (laughs) when-
- TSTim Spector
They'll probably be disgruntled again. I won't know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) ... when you said what you said about calories, because a lot of people do rely on the calories in, calories out-
- TSTim Spector
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... system for weight loss.
- TSTim Spector
Yeah. Well, obesity experts don't. So it may be fine in gyms to talk about that. That's old science. We now know that, that this calorie model, from a practical point of view, is completely broken because we've been not talking about the quality of food, the structure of food, all these different effects, these inter-individual effects that we're talking about, meaning that counting calories is, for vast majority of people, impossible or meaningless. So it, it's, and it's the, the marketing and the companies who are sign- selling us these low calorie products, this idea that it's really simple, "All you gotta do is X, Y, and Z. You'll lose weight," that's what we're fighting here. And they may have influenced, you know, the gyms with their, uh, special drinks and programs and people wanting the crash course of, "Come in here, you'll lose all this. You'll, you'll gain muscle. You'll lose weight. You know, it's easy." The evidence is very clear that if you restrict calories, you will lose weight, but 80% of people regain it pretty quickly, and-... will actually go over the other end if they haven't changed their diet in terms of quality and taking care of what they're eating. And there's good evidence that people that follow, uh, a program where they are not focusing on calories but they are focusing on food quality, um, they're looking at their sugar peaks, they're looking at their fat levels, they're looking at their gut microbes, they are looking at the time of day they're eating, they're looking at the- the how to eat just thoughtfully and not talking about fat levels and, you know, avoiding all these foods that we've been talking about, they will consistently lose small amounts of weight. Not large amounts, but small, consistent amounts that don't make them more hungry. And the key is, do things that don't make you hungrier. The reason calorie restriction doesn't work is our evolution tells us to ramp up the appetite, uh, the hunger signal. Obvious. You know, uh, it's the same way if you do exercise, it makes you hungrier. We have this inbuilt mechanism. That's why the only dr- drugs that (laughs) w- methods that work are these drugs like, um, uh, Ozempic, Wegovy, that act on the appetite. They act on the brain. They just, it's from the gut, sends a signal to the brain, switches off the appetite signal. Otherwise, you, you just reduce calories or you increase exercise, that appetite signal is just going right up there, and you can carry on resisting it for a while. Most people who tried this, they know, and it gets harder and harder every week. And then suddenly, you crack and then you say, "Ugh, I've, I've given up now. I'm, I'm back..." And often you swing above it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yo-yo.
- TSTim Spector
Yeah. And that, and that yo-yoing, it is probably the worst thing you can do 'cause it just makes your, you know, you got no consistency.
- SBSteven Bartlett
On that point of exercise, there was a lot of contention last time we spoke around the subject matter of exercise because a lot of people go out and do cardiovascular exercise, they run on a running machine in order to try and lose w- weight. But you and many other people that I've spoken to have said that that's not a great strategy for weight loss.
- TSTim Spector
Yes. The, lots of studies have done and said people are trying, uh, you know, to lose weight conventional, by conventional means, we're not talking the Zoe Method, but the old-fashioned ways of calorie restriction or, you know, changing to keto diets or, or whatever it is, then if those people are put on exercise or no exercise at the same time, does it help them? And, uh, generally, it doesn't. Okay? So, um, and if you do exercise alone, um, then there's no evidence as many people gain weight as lose weight on exercise. So you think, why is that? Well, if you think it through, exercise, uh, i- is a, and I, I'm not knocking ex- I exercise every day, I, I love it, it's great for my brain and my heart and everything else,
- 1:22:13 – 1:25:25
🏃 Holistic Weight Management: Diet Quality and Mindful Eating!
- TSTim Spector
and reduces lots of diseases, but people have got to separate that from weight loss if we're gonna make any progress here. And if you got too much, you know, excess fat on your body, exercise alone is a terrible way to deal with it 'cause you're like saying, "I'm not gonna deal with my diet, I'm just gonna run it off in the gym and keep taking my supplements and do everything else." And what happens for most people is that their metabolism slows down, the signals of hunger increase after exercise, and psychologically people think, "Oh, well, I've done some exercise, I've burnt off those calories, you know, I can have that donut or whatever." And so subconsciously they're also maybe snacking slightly more-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- TSTim Spector
... than they would be. And that's why for most people it doesn't work. Now, I know people got upset last year, but some people it does work. And this is probably, there's a different response. We don't all respond to exercise with appetite signals exactly the same way. But for as many people it did work, there are people that made them actually put on weight. Do you see what I mean? That's why the studies show no difference. So you always find someone who writes to say, "Steven, this guy's an idiot 'cause I, you know, I did this and I lost, uh, you know, 10 kilos." But the s- you know, exactly someone else will say, "I did this and I gained 10 kilos and I thought I was doing the right thing." So the point is, you can't rely on it, and it's, when there's something obviously modifiable like your diet, it's so easy, we got so much choice now in what to eat. We're not forced to eat ultra-processed foods or low fat this or, or whatever, you know, we can make those choices. We should be doing that, not trying to say, "Am I lucky? Am I that small percentage of person that can do this purely from working out more in the gym?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Supplements, you mentioned there. That's the next thing I wanted to ask you about. Supplements, vitamins. My house used to be stacked with supplements, and then after our conversation last time round, I look at them, most of them like they've lied to me, like I've been a victim of marketing of sorts. And I've got every bloody supplement. I've got your omega-3, vitamin D, electrolytes, calcium, you name it, it's still in my house.
- TSTim Spector
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is your view on these supplements?
- TSTim Spector
Well, in general, my view hasn't changed at all that the vast majority of supplements are completely worthless. But there are some that are useful for some people some of the time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like?
- TSTim Spector
Um, like there are some people who have vitamin D deficiency who...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Black people?
- TSTim Spector
Um, yes, uh, some black people, black, dark-skinned people living in places with very low, you know, if they're living in Scotland, uh, and they might have poor diets that don't have much vitamin D in it, those people could probably do with, do with some supplementation over winter.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because they produce less vitamin D than-... people with lighter skin?
Episode duration: 1:46:41
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